[Chicago] The list

Jeremy McMillan jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com
Mon Feb 22 09:48:57 EST 2016


Nice manifesto! I will only disagree about the missing attribution of the
"premature optimization" quote, and the stuff that seems to draw us-vs-them
distinctions between the Python community and Computer Scientists. I
remember the "premature optimizations" thing being a Donald Knuth quote
about the spring from which all of the worst kinds of bugs flow.

I guess that means I also disagree with the "just my opinion" equivocation.
I agree Rob, but I developed my sympathies from one of the seminally
greatest computer scientists to ever speak or write about solving problems
with computers. It takes big shoes to argue against a fundamental principle
from someone with that level of insight and experience.

Please disagree with me if you want, but I think a key part of the
community is about gently putting down feelings of pride and it's uglier
twin shame; I think we do great things with humility and determination. Go
watch some of the videos of The Don doing his guest lectures at Stanford,
listen for his humility and determination, and try to catch his dry humor.

If Guido is the father of Python, Donald Knuth is a grandfather, and both
have way more to teach than just syntax and algorithms. When you stand on
the shoulders of giants, it's ironic and inappropriate to engage in self
deprecation or to be self effacing.

I was trying to think of ways that we could engage our community to promote
the communitarian participatory science attitude at the existential core of
groups like ChiPy. Maybe this list should be open to discussing bugs
(errors or omissions) we find in others' code, and the best community
response to fixing them, ergo getting the original problem solved in the
most general way practical? Maybe mentors and mentees could make a special
point to participate? Then we can have side adventures together, actively
improving open source Python software?

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016, 20:09 Rob Kapteyn <robkapteyn at gmail.com> wrote:

> I know what you are feeling -- code-shame and the impostor syndrome -- but
> that is NOT how Python became the center of a strong and vibrant community.
> [... Snip ...]
> Sometimes, I knowingly write inefficient code -- think of to no-no of
> "premature optimization" -- and smile ;)
> That is closer to "the Python way" than this phony "idiomatic" fad that
> seems to be hitting the Python world lately.
>
> Just my opinion ;)
> Rob
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 5:42 PM, Mark Graves <mgraves87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I echo all of the above sentiments and these are all things I'm
>> interested in.
>>
>> I am personally here to learn from other's mistakes.  In my career (if
>> you can call it that), its been less painful than re-creating them myself.
>>
>> I often code-shame
>> <https://t.yesware.com/tt/6640a48a14dbdef70b47105ac6b72156559fc5a6/a1b00eac366e80f663deff964c4123a2/507935737f65dff5244388bd1603388d/hn.algolia.com/?query=code%20shame&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story>
>> myself and typically suffer from impostor syndrome
>> <https://t.yesware.com/tt/6640a48a14dbdef70b47105ac6b72156559fc5a6/a1b00eac366e80f663deff964c4123a2/b62037f86be97711a2e7dec23600b63c/hn.algolia.com/?query=impostor%20syndrome&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story> especially
>> when people talk about the zen of python.  This has led me to contribute
>> less to the open source community than I would have liked because I'm
>> afraid people will ridicule my code.  I have even gone so far as to create
>> fake github/bitbucket accounts and send pull requests.  Yep.  I'm that
>> wierd.
>>
>
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