From sholden@holdenweb.com Wed Feb 13 13:28:10 2002 From: sholden@holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:28:10 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... Message-ID: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> First of all, mailman is telling me there are no list archives. Is this because nobody has yet posted to this list? Oo er ... Anyway, these are largely an outsider's view of Python 10 and teh Python community: although I registered for Python 8 I never made it due to a combination of weather and systems crash, so Python 10 was my first such conference. I have some (old) experience running conferences in the UK for organizations like DECUS and the Sun UK User Group. Usually the smaller conferences can be adequately housed in low-cost facilities such as acedemia can provide, but as numbers rise one is forced to consider fewer and fewer such venues due to the larger facilities requirements. This being the USA, I would expect the break point to be somewhat higher than the 400 or so we could adequately manage in UK academic venues back in the 1980s -- say 500 to 750? We found that offereing bused hotel accommodation to the commercial types minimzed complaints about the primitive nature of the university halls of residence, and that expense-account holders woud cheerfully pay for such accommodation. It was certainly a surprise to me that only 250 or so (my own estimate) people turned up to Python 10, but older hands seemed to feel that this number is "typical". I suppose post-Sep11 there is some reason for it, but I would have expected Python to be experiencing almost explosive growth in its user base right now, and for this to be reflected in conference attendance. If not, boy, have I just wasted a year. Although the experiences are not directly comparable, twenty-five years ago in the UK we were attracting 500+ DECUS members to the UK annual conference. The Commercial SIG would regularly draw in 100+ members to its quarterly one-day London meetings, and other SIGs would attract between 30 and 100 to theirs. If we really believe the download figures and the user-base estimates, there is *much* more that could be done to swell numbers at Python events. I understand Foretec have organized Python N for recent N. I certainly wondered how effective their marketing was, as I don't remember ever hearing anything about it on any non-Python channel. While there probably *is* room for a professionally-run conference, I feel that there are probably also many Python users out there who would appreciate something lower-cost and not necessarily in a hotel. Particularly not one with such disgusting coffee :-). I would certainly have appreciated the chance to attend tutorials and developers days, but this year at those cost levels it simply wasn't an option. Summarizing: 1. Attendance could be higher at future conferences run along the same lines as Python 10. These things are small beer to Foretec compared with the cash-cow IETF bashes, and I don't really feel they are in touch with the market for Python. This may be heresy, I don't know enough to know who these comments might offend. Don't really care much, either: Foretec certainly didn't make me feel, as a first-time attender, that I was anything special, or that they were glad to see me, or even that they would like me to come back next time. I think Foretec think Python is a yawn. The way they approach it, I think they're right. 2. Whether or not Python 11 is much like Python 10, there is certainly room for some sort of no-frills (Python 11.5?) conference to attract and cater for Pythonistas who don't have the benefit of commercial backing of one kind or another. This would also better enable the PSF to judge groundswell growth in Python usage, and put them nearer the "beer and skittles" end of the market, such as it is. 3. My own feeling is that the PSF or some other visibly non-profit organization could do at least as good a job as Foretec, but I shudder when I remember the time it takes to organize an even half-way professional conference. Over and out. regards Steve -- Consulting, training, speaking: http://www.holdenweb.com/ Author, Python Web Programming: http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/ "This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects with useful practice." Aahz Maruch on c.l.py From guido@python.org Wed Feb 13 14:30:53 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:30:53 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:28:10 EST." <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> References: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> Message-ID: <200202131430.g1DEUrh07933@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> [Lots of good points snipped] > 3. My own feeling is that the PSF or some other visibly non-profit > organization could do at least as good a job as Foretec, but I shudder > when I remember the time it takes to organize an even half-way > professional conference. And that's of course the crux of the issue at hand. We would need to find volunteers who can do for free what Foretec has done for money: negotiate with venues, arrange logistics, set up a website, find program chairs and a program committee and make sure they do their job on time, etc. All these things can be done on a shoestring budget, but it's still a massive job coordinating all those volunteers and making sure the venue logistics work. Example: imagine 400 people show up and there's no coffee. If they all go the the Starbuck's around the corner, it'll take several hours before everybody has their latte. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From aahz@rahul.net Wed Feb 13 14:30:22 2002 From: aahz@rahul.net (Aahz Maruch) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:30:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> from "Steve Holden" at Feb 13, 2002 08:28:10 AM Message-ID: <20020213143022.E7EC5E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> [Brief note about my qualifications: I rarely attend "professional" conferences (my experience is limited to OSCON2000/2001 and IPC9), but I regularly attend volunteer-run events as large as 7000 people (aka SF cons), and I have run one small one myself.] Steve Holden wrote: > > 1. Attendance could be higher at future conferences run along the same > lines as Python 10. These things are small beer to Foretec compared with > the cash-cow IETF bashes, and I don't really feel they are in touch with > the market for Python. This may be heresy, I don't know enough to know > who these comments might offend. Don't really care much, either: Foretec > certainly didn't make me feel, as a first-time attender, that I was > anything special, or that they were glad to see me, or even that they > would like me to come back next time. I think Foretec think Python is a > yawn. The way they approach it, I think they're right. That's been the impression I got of IPC10; my impression of IPC9 was better. I have had the impression that IPC9 did not do as well as Foretec wanted/expected, which probably fed into IPC10. Part of the problem is that I'm not wild about traveling in winter (and I bet other people aren't, either), but we also don't want to get too close in time to OSCON. Fall might be good. If we pick fall as the new time, I suggest skipping a year. Now is too late for trying to find a hotel for this year. > 2. Whether or not Python 11 is much like Python 10, there is certainly > room for some sort of no-frills (Python 11.5?) conference to attract and > cater for Pythonistas who don't have the benefit of commercial backing > of one kind or another. This would also better enable the PSF to judge > groundswell growth in Python usage, and put them nearer the "beer and > skittles" end of the market, such as it is. > > 3. My own feeling is that the PSF or some other visibly non-profit > organization could do at least as good a job as Foretec, but I shudder > when I remember the time it takes to organize an even half-way > professional conference. Who says it has to be a "professional" conference? The main problem lies with facilities; once you've got that, it takes relatively little organization as long as people are willing to put in the effort. The trick is to keep work separate -- the person organzing the programming need have little contact with the hotel liaison. I do strongly recommend that a team of two or three people jointly be hotel liaison. One thing that would make this easier in many ways would be to put the conference at least partly on a weekend (Thurs/Fri through Sunday). You can drastically reduce your costs that way because most business/professional conferences are during the week (it's how SF cons manage), and people can take less time off work. I think we can also do better by picking a mid-range business class hotel (something like the Doubletree in San Jose), rather than the swankier ones that Foretec has been picking. I strongly recommend that we pick a location with a decent airport nearby. OSCON being next to San Diego airport is good; IPC9 in Long Beach was not so good; OSCON when it was in Monterey was bad. If we go with the volunteer-run option, I suggest that the PSF start taking "pre-support" money now, something like $50 per person, with the guarantee that all pre-supporters will get $100 off the early-bird reg fee. I looked at IPC10, and the total fee was $1150 for all five days for early-bird. I think we could get that down to about $500-$700, or even lower if we're willing to dispense with amenities such as free danish in the morning. -- --- Aahz (@pobox.com) Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/ Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista We must not let the evil of a few trample the freedoms of the many. From aahz@rahul.net Wed Feb 13 14:33:04 2002 From: aahz@rahul.net (Aahz Maruch) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:33:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> from "Steve Holden" at Feb 13, 2002 08:28:10 AM Message-ID: <20020213143304.117D1E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Okay, now that I've talked a lot about how to run a volunteer Python conference, let me suggest that we approach O'Reilly about running it in spring or fall. My comments about choice of venue and weekday timing still apply, IMO. -- --- Aahz (@pobox.com) Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/ Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista We must not let the evil of a few trample the freedoms of the many. From guido@python.org Wed Feb 13 14:48:24 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:48:24 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 06:33:04 PST." <20020213143304.117D1E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> References: <20020213143304.117D1E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Message-ID: <200202131448.g1DEmOp08050@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> > Okay, now that I've talked a lot about how to run a volunteer Python > conference, let me suggest that we approach O'Reilly about running > it in spring or fall. My comments about choice of venue and weekday > timing still apply, IMO. O'Reilly has already forwarded a counter-offer (to me): run Python11 as part of OSCON starting in 2003, just like the Perl conference is part of OSCON. They're not interested in running a separate conference; as Foretec found, the audience is too small. My own view is that we should do both: a full Python conference at OSCON *and* a super-cheap YAPC-style conference. The YAS folks who organize YAPC have also offered to work with us. I am not very interested in having the PSF take money for conference pre-registrations. It sounds like a major hassle to administer, and the PSF treasurer definitely doesn't have time for that. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From ziggy@panix.com Wed Feb 13 14:53:28 2002 From: ziggy@panix.com (Adam Turoff) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:53:28 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> References: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> Message-ID: <20020213145328.GA29801@panix.com> On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 08:28:10AM -0500, Steve Holden wrote: > I have some (old) experience running conferences in the UK for > organizations like DECUS and the Sun UK User Group. Usually the smaller > conferences can be adequately housed in low-cost facilities such as > acedemia can provide, but as numbers rise one is forced to consider > fewer and fewer such venues due to the larger facilities requirements. > This being the USA, I would expect the break point to be somewhat higher > than the 400 or so we could adequately manage in UK academic venues back > in the 1980s -- say 500 to 750? Not really. YAS has organized 3 small grass-roots conferences in North America thus far (the fourth is coming up in St. Louis this June). There have been other small Perl conferences in Europe that have been under 300 people (2 YAPCs and I believe 3 German Perl Workshops). The first YAPC lost about $2,000, mostly because the admission fees were underestimated slightly ($65pp, 285 attendees, 2 day event). That money was more than made up as a tote bag was secretly passed around before the organizer had time to finish his closing remarks. The subsequent two YAPCs have covered costs and are now attracting upwards of 350 people (perhaps more if last year's event had been held in the US instead of Montreal). The limiting factor now is the size of the venue; I don't see 200 people/3 days as a money-losing lower bound in an academic setting. > We found that offereing bused hotel accommodation to the commercial > types minimzed complaints about the primitive nature of the university > halls of residence, and that expense-account holders woud cheerfully pay > for such accommodation. YAPCs have been intentionally planned to be near both (reasonable but low cost) hotels and dorms to accomodate both types of audiences. Twice there was a courtesy van for those who didn't want to make the 15 minute trek to the venue. Once the hotels were about a 10-15 minute walk away. The biggest issue and blessing with YAPCs have been that the cost is kept intentionally low, so that even those without expense accounts can pay for it out of pocket (especially including students). There has been a palpable sense of "we're here for ourselves" at any YAPC. The volunteer spirit has been quite pronounced in the past and will likely continue. It also helps that the Perl community has a big ticket event in California every year for those who do not like the low cost roll-up-your-sleeves-and-lets-get-to-work atmosphere. I'm convinced that the PSF or some other community organization could organize Python 11. I'm told that it's not a lot of work to organize these types of events, but it's also more than you expect going in. The only questions I have relate to the respective differences between Perlfolk and Pythonistas. For example, what are the differences in expectations if Python 11 were both a grass roots event and the primary event on the Python calendar? Is it significant that O'Reilly's OSCON is the major gathering of the Perl faithful, setting up YAPCs as "alternative" conferences? Z. From barry@zope.com Wed Feb 13 14:53:34 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:53:34 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... References: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> Message-ID: <15466.32238.342673.340217@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "SH" == Steve Holden writes: SH> First of all, mailman is telling me there are no list SH> archives. Is this because nobody has yet posted to this list? Yes, and thanks for "fixing" it! :) (Actually, this is already fixed in MM2.1.) -Barry From ziggy@panix.com Wed Feb 13 15:04:55 2002 From: ziggy@panix.com (Adam Turoff) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:04:55 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <20020213143022.E7EC5E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> References: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> <20020213143022.E7EC5E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Message-ID: <20020213150455.GA5638@panix.com> On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 06:30:22AM -0800, Aahz Maruch wrote: > If we go with the volunteer-run option, I suggest that the PSF start > taking "pre-support" money now, something like $50 per person, with the > guarantee that all pre-supporters will get $100 off the early-bird reg > fee. I looked at IPC10, and the total fee was $1150 for all five days > for early-bird. I think we could get that down to about $500-$700, or > even lower if we're willing to dispense with amenities such as free > danish in the morning. YAS has been pretty successful with a bi-level pricing model: ~US$100 per person ~US$300 per person who needs to fill out an expense report, and needs a "more realistic price" to get approval to attend. (Or per generous person). [speakers attend free, but occasionally still pay anyway] That's for a 3-day event, with no extra fees for attending tutorials, no payments to presenters for presenting, no travel/accomodation budget for speakers, etc. No hotel/dorm fees included, but arrangements and group rates have been negotiated in advance. This has worked for 5 YAPCs thus far and the model is being used for 2-3 more YAPCs this year. Of course, this presumes an academic venue, and sponsorship making up the shortfall (catering costs for breakfast, coffee breaks, etc.). Last year in Montreal, it was quite reasonable not to cater lunch because there were enough places nearby to visit for lunch without overwhelming the area. No one minded. Z. From paul@zope.com Wed Feb 13 15:07:59 2002 From: paul@zope.com (Paul Everitt) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:07:59 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... References: <20020213143304.117D1E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> <200202131448.g1DEmOp08050@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3C6A814F.9010408@zope.com> Guido van Rossum wrote: >>Okay, now that I've talked a lot about how to run a volunteer Python >>conference, let me suggest that we approach O'Reilly about running >>it in spring or fall. My comments about choice of venue and weekday >>timing still apply, IMO. >> > > O'Reilly has already forwarded a counter-offer (to me): run Python11 > as part of OSCON starting in 2003, just like the Perl conference is > part of OSCON. They're not interested in running a separate > conference; as Foretec found, the audience is too small. > > My own view is that we should do both: a full Python conference at > OSCON *and* a super-cheap YAPC-style conference. The YAS folks who > organize YAPC have also offered to work with us. I'm strongly in favor of such an approach. > I am not very interested in having the PSF take money for conference > pre-registrations. It sounds like a major hassle to administer, and > the PSF treasurer definitely doesn't have time for that. I'm also not interested in the PSF trying its hand at something like this. --Paul From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Wed Feb 13 15:13:48 2002 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:13:48 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> References: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> Message-ID: <20020213151348.GA528@ute.mems-exchange.org> On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 08:28:10AM -0500, Steve Holden wrote: >It was certainly a surprise to me that only 250 or so (my own estimate) >people turned up to Python 10, but older hands seemed to feel that this >number is "typical". I suppose post-Sep11 there is some reason for it, Python9 had 300-something attendees, so Python10 was a bit smaller, but that's pretty good in the current climate. Presumably the core audience is small, but really committed. >I understand Foretec have organized Python N for recent N. I certainly >wondered how effective their marketing was, as I don't remember ever >hearing anything about it on any non-Python channel. While there Agreed. Did *anyone* hear about Python10 through a non-Python channel? Especially given that the conference had two high-profile keynote speakers who have name recognition, I was surprised that there seemed to be so little publicity effort made outside of Python-related mailing lists and user groups. Foretec may be used to having a captive market in the IETF that they don't really need to market to. I'd suggest leaving the OSCON as the professional conference; apparently O'Reilly does a reasonable job with them. (I've never been to OSCON, so that's just what I've heard.) We don't need two professionally run conferences, and instead we should encourage smaller and cheaper grass-roots conferences, such as a Yet Another Society conference, or Python tracks in related conferences, as was done at the upcoming C/C++ Users Conference in Warwick, England. (The nice thing about trying to encourage Python tracks at other conferences is that someone else deals with arranging the hotel, food, projectors, and similar things; we'd just have to worry about getting programming, and making enough Pythonistas show up to make it worth the effort for the hosting conference. That's something of a chicken-and-egg problem, though.) --amk (www.amk.ca) "Money's not interesting -- too easy to get hold of." "Too many stupid people have it." -- Two moviegoers, in Peter Greenaway's _8 1/2 Women_ From mwh@python.net Wed Feb 13 15:14:02 2002 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:14:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <200202131448.g1DEmOp08050@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Guido van Rossum wrote: > My own view is that we should do both: a full Python conference at > OSCON *and* a super-cheap YAPC-style conference. The YAS folks who > organize YAPC have also offered to work with us. Yes please. One advantage of a conference hosted at an academic venue would be that it would presumably be outside term time, which is half the reason I haven't attended a Python conference yet (the other half being money). Cheers, M. From guido@python.org Wed Feb 13 15:39:28 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:39:28 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:13:48 EST." <20020213151348.GA528@ute.mems-exchange.org> References: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> <20020213151348.GA528@ute.mems-exchange.org> Message-ID: <200202131539.g1DFdSC08218@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> > Agreed. Did *anyone* hear about Python10 through a non-Python > channel? Not me. :-) I doubt anyone did -- Foretec at one time was planning to mail "all Fortune 500 CTOs" but they cancelled that mailing. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From aahz@rahul.net Wed Feb 13 15:38:16 2002 From: aahz@rahul.net (Aahz Maruch) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:38:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <200202131448.g1DEmOp08050@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> from "Guido van Rossum" at Feb 13, 2002 09:48:24 AM Message-ID: <20020213153817.57973E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Guido van Rossum wrote: > Aahz: >> >> Okay, now that I've talked a lot about how to run a volunteer Python >> conference, let me suggest that we approach O'Reilly about running >> it in spring or fall. My comments about choice of venue and weekday >> timing still apply, IMO. > > O'Reilly has already forwarded a counter-offer (to me): run Python11 > as part of OSCON starting in 2003, just like the Perl conference is > part of OSCON. They're not interested in running a separate > conference; as Foretec found, the audience is too small. > > My own view is that we should do both: a full Python conference at > OSCON *and* a super-cheap YAPC-style conference. The YAS folks who > organize YAPC have also offered to work with us. Works for me. I probably won't be able to help much with the facilities, because I'd expect that having OSCON on the west coast would push people to an alternate geography for the other conference. Now we need a name. ;-) > I am not very interested in having the PSF take money for conference > pre-registrations. It sounds like a major hassle to administer, and > the PSF treasurer definitely doesn't have time for that. Hasn't been a hassle in my experience (as long as the PSF already has some way of accepting money), but it isn't negligible, either. My point was more that it does take some front money to set up a convention (and the sooner the better), but if the YAS folks are helping us, that should probably suffice as the money center. How quickly can YAS set up a Python-specific donation system? Just how cheaply do we want to drive the alternate conference? Even without going to a university, and even with setting it in a business-class hotel, I could probably get the costs down to less than $100 for registration and less than $100/night for rooms (even with quad booking for the students). (The con that I ran had a membership fee averaging $50, and that included a rather lavish Sunday brunch. We had about 80 people. Wasn't a business-class hotel, but other incarnations of the same con have been in a business-class hotel for the same price -- downtown is more expensive than elsewhere.) -- --- Aahz (@pobox.com) Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/ Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista We must not let the evil of a few trample the freedoms of the many. From robinf1@pdq.net Wed Feb 13 16:07:09 2002 From: robinf1@pdq.net (Robin Friedrich) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:07:09 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... Message-ID: <3CB0F5B7@mail.pdq.net> Steve got this list kicked off (yes you were first) so let me follow up with some of my own thoughts on Python conferences. I agree with the main train of thought expressed so far in this thread. O'Reilly's offer of using OSCON as the "big production value" Python conference is fine with me. It'll be expensive to attend but, because of O'Reilly's diverse topics (and marketing) it's more likely that an employee can find a justification for the expense. It's a great venue to have Python strut it's stuff and impress folks that would not have considered Python otherwise. A Python-only conference by its nature is much more specialized and makes it less likely for an employee to find direct, justifiable need to attend. The idea of a separate YAPC-style conference for Python is also great. Calling it a "workshop" rather than a "conference" actually makes a difference to many employers though. A workshop can be booked under employee development while a conference cannot. So let's call it the Python Workshop and have it focus on futures and works in progress rather than an academic paper medium. The time and effort that must be allotted to judging papers can be a major drag. Let's solicit presentations/demos rather than papers. I can see developers day expanded to three days. Include long talks, short talks, PEP review, futures, and tutorials, (not basic ones though). Have no more than two tracks; web and general purpose. I foresee the workshop (especially if it has a small price tag) being very popular so we better have a venue that can handle 500 people. Locating it near Zopeland increases the number of Python Labs people that can attend, and since OSCON will always be west coast as far as I can tell that balances the geography as well. Obviously there will be some diffusion of attendance because it's unlikely many people will attend both events but the point is to serve AND expand the Python community. Python 10 did nothing to expand the community while this new plan has a much better chance of doing that. Anyway that's the $0.02 from someone who has attended and enjoyed every Python conference/workshop. -Robin Friedrich From sdeibel@wingide.com Wed Feb 13 16:10:50 2002 From: sdeibel@wingide.com (Stephan R.A. Deibel) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:10:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:13:48, Andrew Kuchling wrote: > Agreed. Did *anyone* hear about Python10 through a non-Python > channel? Especially given that the conference had two high-profile > keynote speakers who have name recognition, I was surprised that there > seemed to be so little publicity effort made outside of Python-related > mailing lists and user groups. This seems like a great example of a trend I've been noticing: The Python community and associated vendors really undersell the language, esp. in light of how much people that use it tend to benefit from it. I don't know if this will be fruitful but it seems worth a try to get together people that are interested in this generic problem. As such, I've created a new mailing list marketing-python@wingide.com dedicated to the discussion of the general problem of marketing Python the programming language. I'm hoping this can be a place to generate some insights and perhaps some contacts for potential collaborators in getting Python out in front of more of the software development world. The main page is here: http://wingide.com/mailman/listinfo/marketing-python I'll announce this on clpa a bit later, in case there's a desire to move this to python.org or something. ---------------------- BTW, I strongly agree that Python needs both a larger and growing commercial style conference and a small, cheap conference that looks more like the past conferences (only cheaper). This seems like it's an important part of the "Python formula", part of what makes the community work so well. - Stephan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wing IDE for Python Archaeopteryx Software, Inc www.wingide.com Take Flight! From gward@python.net Wed Feb 13 16:53:48 2002 From: gward@python.net (Greg Ward) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:53:48 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <3CB0F5B7@mail.pdq.net> References: <3CB0F5B7@mail.pdq.net> Message-ID: <20020213165348.GA1646@gerg.ca> On 13 February 2002, Robin Friedrich said: > The idea of a separate YAPC-style conference for Python is also great. > Calling it a "workshop" rather than a "conference" actually makes a > difference to many employers though. A workshop can be booked under > employee development while a conference cannot. So let's call it the > Python Workshop and have it focus on futures and works in progress > rather than an academic paper medium. Hmmm... I think that might be a great idea. I'm sure it's an *interesting* idea at the very least. ;-) > The time and effort that must > be allotted to judging papers can be a major drag. And the cost of a printed proceedings is, presumably, not negligible. That said, I *like* having a printed proceedings. I think I'll start a separate thread on that topic. > Let's solicit > presentations/demos rather than papers. I can see developers day > expanded to three days. Include long talks, short talks, PEP review, > futures, and tutorials, (not basic ones though). That all sounds good to me. > Have no more than two tracks; web and general purpose. Is there a Zope track at OSCON? Should there be? I don't really have a feel for how much the Zope track at IPC is a major gathering for the Zope community. Presumably, that community is big enough and important enough that it needs/deserves some sort of focal point. But if there are only web and general tracks at this proposed Python Workshop, there's a danger that the Zope community will either overwhelm the web track, or find themselves shut out (ie. without formal recognition at any conference). > I foresee the workshop (especially > if it has a small price tag) being very popular so we better have a > venue that can handle 500 people. There's a tricky balance between focussing on developer's-day-like stuff and attracting new people. Perhaps some basic tutorials are in order, after all? Greg -- Greg Ward - geek-at-large gward@python.net http://starship.python.net/~gward/ Do radioactive cats have 18 half-lives? From jeff@corrt.com Wed Feb 13 17:03:51 2002 From: jeff@corrt.com (Jeff Kunce) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:03:51 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Python 4 - my first and favorite Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020213110351.00a1da40@corrt.com> This could have gone in with the "crackle" posts, but I just wanted to start the second thread on a new list :) I was really excited when Robin F told me about the PSF discussion, and the possibility of a "two" conference system. I'm not suggesting that Python 4 should be the model for the small/cheap conference, but it had some features that really worked for me: - Held at a location with a large variety of hotels, restaurants, pubs, etc. in walking distance. Everyone was free to pick their own price and comfort level. I really hate those luxury prison-camp hotels where there are no other options in sight. While college dorm lodging would work for me, some campuses might be just as isolated and option-less as a luxury conference hotel. - Venue was free! FedUnixWorld(?) donated a room at the DC Convention Center, just to expand their offerings (I guess). Maybe we won't get that lucky again, but cheap is doable. I submit that Python techies will come to talk python, even in the absence of crystal chandeliers. - Fly into National, hop on the metro, jump off at the hotel. Stay an extra day and ride to the Smithsonian. Works for me. - It was called "Python Workshop" instead of "Python Conference". Maybe this stupidity is particular to my bean counters, but I can pay for a "Workshop" out of professional development funds, which are easy to get. A "Conference", I guess, is considered a junket, and the dollars are much harder to find. In short, keep it cheap and accessible, let the attendees have options, focus on new ideas, practical applications, and future plans. I'll see you there! --Jeff From gward@python.net Wed Feb 13 17:05:23 2002 From: gward@python.net (Greg Ward) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:05:23 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? Message-ID: <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> For the three IPCs that I have attended (7, 8, and 10), there has always been a bound and printed book of proceedings. Generally speaking, I like this for a variety of reasons: * it lets you read papers for talks that you miss, or long after the conference is over * it's a lot easier to read than a CD-ROM -- no printer required, portable, etc. * authors can point at a physical artifact and say, "Look! I'm a real Python programmer, I've been *published*" * forces authors/presenters to think hard about their topic twice: once while writing the paper, and once while preparing their talk. On good talks and papers, this shows (I think). There are some inherent problems with having a printed proceedings book: * cost of printing and binding * the overhead of having a program committee review and accept/reject papers (but this also serves as an important quality control filter -- usually the dross doesn't get into the conference) There are also some implementation problems with the proceedings books I have seen so far; I think the biggest one is simply this: no copy editor! As near as I can tell, no one is responsible for making sure that the published papers are grammatically and orthographically correct, or that the formatting isn't all screwed up. (Take a look at Martin von Loewis' paper in the IPC10 proceedings to see a classic "formatting all screwed up" paper. It's not fatal, but it sure is annoying.) I've been on the program committee several times, and the first couple of times I went after grammatical/spelling/formatting problems with a vengeance. This year, I realized that was pointless when the paper might end up being rejected, so AFAIK no one ever fixed up the grammar/formatting of the published papers. (The only one I've read so far is Martin's, which had some minor German-isms in the grammar that -- along with the bad formatting -- would have been fixed by a proper copy-edit.) So: how does everyone feel about having published papers coming out the conference? In short, is it worth the time, effort, and expense? Greg -- Greg Ward - geek gward@python.net http://starship.python.net/~gward/ What happens if you touch these two wires tog-- From guido@python.org Wed Feb 13 17:16:36 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:16:36 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Python 4 - my first and favorite In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:03:51 CST." <3.0.2.32.20020213110351.00a1da40@corrt.com> References: <3.0.2.32.20020213110351.00a1da40@corrt.com> Message-ID: <200202131716.g1DHGa917034@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> > I'm not suggesting that Python 4 should be the model for the > small/cheap conference, but it had some features that really > worked for me: That was Python 5 (http://www.python.org/workshops/1996-11/) -- Python 4 was at LLNL (http://www.python.org/workshops/1996-06/). In my memory, Python 5 at FedUnix was pretty dismal -- a huge glooming building with nothing else going on (FedUnix started two days later, we got space while they were setting up the expo space). But yes, some aspects were good: free venue in a part of town with lots of eateries. I'm not sure if that particular kind of venue scales to 300+ people. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From aahz@rahul.net Wed Feb 13 17:17:09 2002 From: aahz@rahul.net (Aahz Maruch) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:17:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? In-Reply-To: <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> from "Greg Ward" at Feb 13, 2002 12:05:23 PM Message-ID: <20020213171709.169B9E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Greg Ward wrote: > > So: how does everyone feel about having published papers coming out the > conference? In short, is it worth the time, effort, and expense? Expense, yes. Once you've dealt with the time/effort, it should add only $10 per person to print the stuff; that's a small part of the reg cost and a tiny fraction of the total cost of attending. I don't have a strong opinion about the time/effort. I think it's a Good Idea, but that's about as far as I go. -- --- Aahz (@pobox.com) Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/ Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista We must not let the evil of a few trample the freedoms of the many. From DavidA@ActiveState.com Wed Feb 13 17:17:33 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:17:33 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... References: <3CB0F5B7@mail.pdq.net> <20020213165348.GA1646@gerg.ca> Message-ID: <3C6A9FAD.14ACFA6@activestate.com> > And the cost of a printed proceedings is, presumably, not negligible. > That said, I *like* having a printed proceedings. I think I'll start a > separate thread on that topic. Good idea. My understanding is that paper proceedings are quite expensive, but I know that YAPC does them for the sake of "the feel of a real conference". Personally, I'm satisfied with having the documents available on a website. I have CD's from all the previous conferneces, and have never unwrapped them; and I've occasionally read the papers on paper, but always after the fact in the plane ride home. If it saves $20 to the cost of admission, IMO it's worth cutting. But getting broader feedback is the point of this list, so feed back! > Is there a Zope track at OSCON? There is a joint Python/Zope track. It is up to the program committee to allocate time. I don't recall if the room allocations have already been decided (it might be a joint Zope/Python track w/ several parallel sessions, but I don't _think_ so). --david ascher From gward@python.net Wed Feb 13 17:24:06 2002 From: gward@python.net (Greg Ward) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:24:06 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Python 4 - my first and favorite In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20020213110351.00a1da40@corrt.com> References: <3.0.2.32.20020213110351.00a1da40@corrt.com> Message-ID: <20020213172406.GA1792@gerg.ca> On 13 February 2002, Jeff Kunce said: > - It was called "Python Workshop" instead of "Python Conference". Maybe this > stupidity is particular to my bean counters, but I can pay for a "Workshop" > out of professional development funds, which are easy to get. A "Conference", > I guess, is considered a junket, and the dollars are much harder to find. Here's a loopy, 25%-serious idea based on the YAPC two-tiered pricing model: if you want to go to a workshop, then we send you email and point you at a web site referring to the "Python Workshop"; if not, we refer to "Python Conference". Or, better, just make the conference web site dynamic: if the request comes from certain IP ranges, say "Python Workshop", else "Python Conference". That way, people with picky beancounters can just enter their employer's IP range on a form somewhere, and when the beancounters visit the web site to approve the expense, it says "Python Workshop". For everyone else, it says "Python Conference". (That last paragraph was about 5% serious. Hold off on the flames.) Greg -- Greg Ward - programmer-at-big gward@python.net http://starship.python.net/~gward/ All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed. From guido@python.org Wed Feb 13 17:27:49 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:27:49 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:05:23 EST." <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> References: <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> Message-ID: <200202131727.g1DHRn517094@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> > There are some inherent problems with having a printed proceedings book: > > * cost of printing and binding Which are higher than you think. > * the overhead of having a program committee review and accept/reject > papers (but this also serves as an important quality control > filter -- usually the dross doesn't get into the conference) Plus the requirement for presenters to produce both slides *and* a written paper worth printing -- and the latter has to be ready long before the conference. > There are also some implementation problems with the proceedings books I > have seen so far; I think the biggest one is simply this: no copy > editor! As near as I can tell, no one is responsible for making sure > that the published papers are grammatically and orthographically > correct, or that the formatting isn't all screwed up. (Take a look at > Martin von Loewis' paper in the IPC10 proceedings to see a classic > "formatting all screwed up" paper. It's not fatal, but it sure is > annoying.) I've been on the program committee several times, and the > first couple of times I went after grammatical/spelling/formatting > problems with a vengeance. This year, I realized that was pointless > when the paper might end up being rejected, so AFAIK no one ever fixed > up the grammar/formatting of the published papers. (The only one I've > read so far is Martin's, which had some minor German-isms in the grammar > that -- along with the bad formatting -- would have been fixed by a > proper copy-edit.) The formatting screw-up is annoying; this happens often because the formatting is done by Foretec personnel who aren't really qualified. We've had accidents like this every year as I recall. Copy-editing is very expensive and doesn't happen for any conference materials ever, except for very expensive ones. Most academic conferences can't afford this. > So: how does everyone feel about having published papers coming out the > conference? In short, is it worth the time, effort, and expense? Not to me. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Wed Feb 13 17:29:15 2002 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:29:15 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <20020213165348.GA1646@gerg.ca> References: <3CB0F5B7@mail.pdq.net> <20020213165348.GA1646@gerg.ca> Message-ID: <20020213172915.GB965@ute.mems-exchange.org> On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 11:53:48AM -0500, Greg Ward wrote: >There's a tricky balance between focussing on developer's-day-like stuff >and attracting new people. Perhaps some basic tutorials are in order, >after all? It's hard to take care of both newbies and developers at the same time. I'd like to see briefer, 1- or maybe 2-day meetings that are essentially like Developer's Day; it looks like everyone thinks "Python Workshop" is a good name for such an event. Moshe told me he had a lot of fun at a Debian conference somewhere in France that was essentially a big hacking party; something like that for Python would be great. Imagine getting a gaggle of people together, saying "let's implement the damn catalog, already" and actually *doing* it. --amk (www.amk.ca) "What are you doing in the lake?" "Drowning." -- Brigadier Bambera and Ace, in "Battlefield" From DavidA@ActiveState.com Wed Feb 13 17:23:51 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:23:51 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? References: <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> Message-ID: <3C6AA127.3596F79A@activestate.com> Greg Ward wrote: > There are some inherent problems with having a printed proceedings book: > > * cost of printing and binding > > * the overhead of having a program committee review and accept/reject > papers (but this also serves as an important quality control > filter -- usually the dross doesn't get into the conference) The overhead is not in the acceptance/rejection of papers -- that's the overhead of having _refereed papers_, not of the proceedings aspect of it. There is overhead involved in formatting all of the papers in a similar fashion, and all of the actual production process. > There are also some implementation problems with the proceedings books I > have seen so far; I think the biggest one is simply this: no copy > editor! As near as I can tell, no one is responsible for making sure > that the published papers are grammatically and orthographically > correct, or that the formatting isn't all screwed up. Part of the problem w/ any third-party (e.g. Foretec) doing the proceedings is that their technical expertise doesn't extend to understanding the impact of line breaks on Python code readability. If you want to volunteer for the job, though, that's helpful =). > So: how does everyone feel about having published papers coming out the > conference? In short, is it worth the time, effort, and expense? I think that while the question is worth answering, it's waaay too early to ask for votes. No one here has any experience with the time/effort component, and I've gotten no believable data on the expense factor. So I would discount all "votes" as being uninformed. --david From mwh@python.net Wed Feb 13 17:31:41 2002 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:31:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <20020213172915.GB965@ute.mems-exchange.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Andrew Kuchling wrote: > Moshe told me he had a lot of fun at a Debian conference somewhere in > France that was essentially a big hacking party; something like that for > Python would be great. Imagine getting a gaggle of people together, > saying "let's implement the damn catalog, already" and actually *doing* > it. +1e6 Cheers, M. From mwh@python.net Wed Feb 13 17:34:34 2002 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:34:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? In-Reply-To: <3C6AA127.3596F79A@activestate.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, David Ascher wrote: > Part of the problem w/ any third-party (e.g. Foretec) doing the > proceedings is that their technical expertise doesn't extend to > understanding the impact of line breaks on Python code readability. If > you want to volunteer for the job, though, that's helpful =). I'd be willing to do some copy-editing & I'm sure I'm not the only one. It would be more tempting if it got me cheaper registration (say), but I'd be happy enough to do a paper or two. Cheers, M. From guido@python.org Wed Feb 13 17:43:43 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:43:43 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:34:34 GMT." References: Message-ID: <200202131743.g1DHhhS17188@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> > I'd be willing to do some copy-editing & I'm sure I'm not the only one. The problem isn't so much finding copy-editors. It's getting the authors to do what the copy-editors tell them to do. Way back when I worked for CNRI I've seen several proceedings being produced. Getting all authors to cooperate with the production process is one of the hardest parts. Producing good printed proceedings takes a very long lead time, and lots of efforts from someone who is really schedule-sensitive. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From paul@zope.com Wed Feb 13 18:25:57 2002 From: paul@zope.com (Paul Everitt) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:25:57 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... References: <3CB0F5B7@mail.pdq.net> <20020213165348.GA1646@gerg.ca> Message-ID: <3C6AAFB5.4090000@zope.com> Greg Ward wrote: > Is there a Zope track at OSCON? Should there be? I don't really have a > feel for how much the Zope track at IPC is a major gathering for the As noted in a followup, I think Zope is a track at the Python part of OSCON. To put it in the jargon that might come true, there will be a Zope track at Python 11, and Python 11 is _conference_ at OSCON. About how much of a major gathering it is...it's pretty important. However, there have been a number of Zope gatherings at different places in Europe and the U.S. Still, we at ZC are considering O'Reilly to be our one big event this year (though we don't treat it as a sales-oriented conference). > Zope community. Presumably, that community is big enough and important > enough that it needs/deserves some sort of focal point. But if there > are only web and general tracks at this proposed Python Workshop, > there's a danger that the Zope community will either overwhelm the web > track, or find themselves shut out (ie. without formal recognition at > any conference). This is a good point. I'm not too sure I have a good answer regarding the balance. I think it's good to showcase the variety of Python options for web applications and I enjoy talking with the other folks that are doing things. Still, the Zope community has a need to organize itself. --Paul From paul@zope.com Wed Feb 13 18:28:41 2002 From: paul@zope.com (Paul Everitt) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:28:41 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... References: Message-ID: <3C6AB059.6060004@zope.com> Michael Hudson wrote: > On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Andrew Kuchling wrote: > > >>Moshe told me he had a lot of fun at a Debian conference somewhere in >>France that was essentially a big hacking party; something like that for >>Python would be great. Imagine getting a gaggle of people together, >>saying "let's implement the damn catalog, already" and actually *doing* >>it. >> > > +1e6 FWIW, we've been pushing the development of Zope3 through an idea called "sprints", where we get a group of people together and follow an XP style of programming for two days. It has generated a lot of enthusiasm and yielded some unexpected dividends. Others on the list here have participated in a sprint, they might be able to comment on its structure or outcomes. Thus, I also give Andrew's proposal a big thumbs up. --Paul From skip@pobox.com Wed Feb 13 18:34:38 2002 From: skip@pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:34:38 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... In-Reply-To: <20020213172915.GB965@ute.mems-exchange.org> References: <3CB0F5B7@mail.pdq.net> <20020213165348.GA1646@gerg.ca> <20020213172915.GB965@ute.mems-exchange.org> Message-ID: <15466.45502.679196.189877@beluga.mojam.com> amk> Imagine getting a gaggle of people together, saying "let's amk> implement the damn catalog, already" and actually *doing* it. Or the damn module global optimization ... Would any corporate bean counters spring for something entitled "Python HackFest"? ;-) Skip From robinf1@pdq.net Wed Feb 13 18:54:16 2002 From: robinf1@pdq.net (Robin Friedrich) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:54:16 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... Message-ID: <3CB273A2@mail.pdq.net> >===== Original Message From Paul Everitt ===== >Greg Ward wrote: > >> Zope community. Presumably, that community is big enough and important >> enough that it needs/deserves some sort of focal point. But if there >> are only web and general tracks at this proposed Python Workshop, >> there's a danger that the Zope community will either overwhelm the web >> track, or find themselves shut out (ie. without formal recognition at >> any conference). > >This is a good point. I'm not too sure I have a good answer regarding >the balance. I think it's good to showcase the variety of Python >options for web applications and I enjoy talking with the other folks >that are doing things. Still, the Zope community has a need to organize >itself. > My original intent in the "web track" at the "workshop" was inclusive of both Zope and non-Zope technology. If the Zope stuff tends to dominate I don't see that as a horrible thing. They'll be plenty of interest in Webware, etc., at represent the diversity that is Python. -Robin From robinf1@pdq.net Wed Feb 13 19:00:15 2002 From: robinf1@pdq.net (Robin Friedrich) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:00:15 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? Message-ID: <3CB2810D@mail.pdq.net> >===== Original Message From Guido van Rossum ===== >Copy-editing is very expensive and doesn't happen for any conference >materials ever, except for very expensive ones. Most academic >conferences can't afford this. > >> So: how does everyone feel about having published papers coming out the >> conference? In short, is it worth the time, effort, and expense? > >Not to me. > >--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) Would a Python Conference under the OSCON banner include some publication of proceedings? If not I can accept a web representation of it. I agree that the refereed papers with copy editing is not worth the effort. -Robin From guido@python.org Wed Feb 13 19:07:03 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:07:03 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:00:15 CST." <3CB2810D@mail.pdq.net> References: <3CB2810D@mail.pdq.net> Message-ID: <200202131907.g1DJ74T17667@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> > Would a Python Conference under the OSCON banner include some > publication of proceedings? I think that should be negotiated with O'Reilly. I think maybe the Perl conference papers are printed, but I'm not sure. They definitely have a conference CD. There's also the issue that many tracks have unrefereed papers that aren't published anyway. But from the attendee's POV that's not a useful distinction (although it may make sense for academic authors). --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From jacob@strakt.com Wed Feb 13 20:04:04 2002 From: jacob@strakt.com (Jacob =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:04:04 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Various issues Message-ID: <3C6AC6B4.1050608@strakt.com> Motivation: Why do we have a Python conference and why do people attend? I think there are several reasons. One is that Guido and the PythonLabs=20 people need to meet the Python community to get input and to explain=20 what is going on. Another is to give people doing cool things in Python=20 to show them off to others, thereby helping others to come up with new=20 cool ideas, attracting a community around their project or marketing=20 themselves. Other reasons are to give people an opportunity to build=20 social networks, pick up the vibrations in the community, do business,=20 infuence the future development, recruit etc. Finally, there is the=20 evangelism aspect. We want to attract more people to the language and we=20 want to give people the chance to see where we stand by attending the=20 conference. Personally, I thing that we should have one conference a year where the=20 evangelism factor is low. This is the time and place where those who are=20 already in the community meet and discuss matters of importance. I think=20 it should be a Python only event to reduce the distractions around it=20 and to increase the chances of making useful contacts. The OSCON is=20 nice, but finding the Python people outside the sessions is well-nigh=20 impossible. OSCON may also be a good place to have evangelism type=20 talks, because you have a lot of people who are there for other reasons=20 and who would enjoy learning more about Python. For the pure Python conference, I think that the current format, with a=20 tutorials day, two conference days and a developers day is rather=20 reasonable. However, I would prefer to move the lightning talks t the=20 conference day and have a single track on the developers day. Having a=20 'hackfest' on the day after the developers day would probably work too.=20 People could choose what to attend. One thing that I do question is the=20 keynote speakers. From my point of view, the ones we had this year were=20 fun to see and hear, but they didn't really add anything useful. Papers: I think that having a paper track is useful. At IPC10, it was the track=20 that had the highest quality of presentation and the lowest redundancy=20 factor. Getting a quality print is fairly easy. You require the authors submit=20 print-ready PDF files. This means that you don't get correct page=20 numbers (unless you make a little hack to the PDF, I used to know how to=20 do that), but it has a very small cost. You may want to make the printed papers (and the CD) optional for the=20 attendees. If the printing costs $10, give a $5 reduction of the fee.=20 Then only the people who really want the papers will request them. You=20 get a shorter print run with less lead time, though a slightly higher=20 per-copy cost. Costs: The IPC10 made a significant dent in the travel budget of my company. We=20 had 2 persons there. Since we were travelling from Europe, we decided to=20 make as much use of our travelling time and stayed for the full 4 days.=20 Conference and hotel set us back a total of $3400. This is way more than=20 the actual cost of getting there. Making savings by staying at a cheaper=20 hotel would have been a major hassle and would have diminished our=20 ability to socialize and make informal contacts. One thing that amazed me was that Fortec charges a full conference fee=20 for attendees who present papers. I think that is biting the hand that=20 feeds you. My impression of the people at the conference was that most of them=20 would not mind somewhat more primitive facilities, and I am rather sure=20 that quite a few members of the Python community did not attend because=20 of cost constraints. The fact that attendance was lower than last year=20 while the Python community has grown is an indicator of this. I don't think a shoestring budget conference is what we need, but I=20 think we could bring down the costs for the conference by nearly an=20 order of magnitude and reduce hotel costs for people considerably. I=20 have experience with arranging 1200 people games conventions with=20 volunteer staff (mostly teenagers) and a real shoestring budget (under=20 $50/ person for 3 days including venue, food, printed materials and a=20 floor to sleep on). By planning well ahead and dividing the work between=20 many people, nobody has a big work burden. I am not suggesting that we=20 should go to such extremes, just pointing out that if your attendees=20 have a very small amount of money, it can be done. Jacob Hall=E9n From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Feb 13 21:42:09 2002 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:42:09 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] EuroPython Message-ID: <20020213214209.GA7330@vet.uu.nl> Hi there, I was the first instigator of the EuroPython initiative, a Python conference to be held in Belgium the end of june. I thought it would be a good idea to have a conference here for some of the same reasons I've been hearing on the list; IPC is rather far away for Europeans, and besides the travelling cost also quite expensive. And there's a *lot* of Python activity going on in Europe. Seeing what happened at the last Zope meeting (over a 100 people showed up, and there would've been more if there wasn't a cap to it), the turnout can't be that terrible. So, Europe should be able to support a conference. With some luck (which we've been having; the venue will be sponsored by local authorities, plus of course all the volunteer activity) we hope to keep the costs relatively low. We also discussed the option to join an existing meeting (such as LinuxTag in Germany, or the Libre Software Meeting), and while that's an easy and cheap option, it doesn't really help Python's profile if there's no independent conference (but that doesn't exclude Python gatherings at such events, of course). So the EuroPython volunteers are just a few months ahead in this process. We've got a raw wiki with some of our thoughts: http://www.europython.org/wiki as well as a currently very active mailing list: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython Anyway, there's all this overlap, so I just wanted to speak up. Should be some synergy there.. Finally, already EuroPython 2002 is likely to be a lot more international than the International Python Conference ever was. So speaking at a devil's advocate you all should consider moving the whole IPC to Europe for the next couple of years. ;) But-I'm-certainly-not-organizing-the-whole-thing-ly yours, Martijn From Andrew Dalke" Independent of the other discussions, let me make a plug here for my home town of Santa Fe, New Mexico. I think this would be a great place for a Python conference/ workshop/ meeting. We do have the space for meetings the size of the last few conferences. The venue I've been to the most is the Eldorado, at http://www.eldoradohotel.com . The largest room can hold 550 in "theatre" seating (no tables), and the next largest is 350. There are smaller rooms for the seperate tracks and spaces can be broken down as needed. (There's a floorplan online.) This means we should be able to hold 325 to 500 people "comfortably." I've known people who ran conferences there. The meeting space is free if enough people stay at the hotel. The cheapest standard room is during Jan. and early Feb., and is $159, plus about $17 in tax. There are about 200 rooms in that hotel, which means there should be enough people. There are many other hotels within easy walking distance, with a good range of prices. The ones I know of are: Alexander's Inn B&B (5 blocks) Hilton of Santa Fe (1 block) Hotel St. Francis (3 blocks) Inn of the Anasazi (3 blocks) Inn of the Govenors (2 blocks) La Fonda (4 blocks) The Raddison (20 minute walk, but free shuttle service) Santa Fe Motel Inn (4 blocks) (actually, here's a list http://www.sfaol.com/hotels/hotels.html but some of those are ten minutes drive or more away.) There is also a lot of good restaurants, bars, galleries, shops, and museums in that area, so people don't need to feel like they are stuck at the hotel. I'm told the catered breakfast and lunch goes for about $25 for each meal. If we want to save on the costs, it should be easy for 300 people to find food near the conference. Here's the restaurants I know of within a few blocks of the place: Carlos's Gosp'l Cafe, Catamount Bar & Grille, Cowgirl Hall of Fame, El Paseo Bar & Grill, Garden Bar, La Casa Sena, La Plazuela, Noon Whistle, Manana, Ore House, Plaza Restaurant, Tia Sophia's, San Francisco Bar and Grill, Burrito Co. (yech), Atomic Grill, Cafe Pasqual's, French Pastry Shop, Blue Corn, Burt's Burger Bowl, The O'Keeffe Cafe, India Palace, Il Vicino, Il Piatto, Shohko-Cafe, Whistling Moon, Evangelo's, Pink Adobe, Coyote Cafe, The Shed, The Bull Ring, combined with the dozen or more I'm missing, then that's under 10 people per restaurant, which is an easy load. (I can't find a web list of only the downtown restaurants.) Typical entree is about $7, though you can get a fajita from the fajita cart off the plaza for $3.50, and there are four food stores within a ten minute walk. Anyway, Santa Fe is a tourist town, which means there's plenty of space and food when it's the off season. Feb. is after the main ski season, though the slopes (which are 40 minutes away) are still open. It also isn't the legislative season, which is why the rates are the cheapest. Don't try to have a conference here in the summer! :) Eldorado has a T1 line and I believe will rent out the needed A/V equipment. If this last conference was any indication, then setting up a few wireless base stations and a small wired room for hookups should be all that's needed. We don't need to have the reception at the hotel. Santa Fe has something like 200 art galleries in the city, some of which are willing to rent out their space for a reception. I don't think any of the ones close by are big enough for 300, but there's one about 1/2 a mile away which I think is. (There was a large conference last year which did that, and provided bus service for those who didn't want the 10 minute walk.) This could be cheaper because it wouldn't need to be catered by the hotel. I think I know a few places that can provide the catering. As to the bars close by, there's the dozen or so hotel bars and there's also: Evangelo's, Atomic, Catamount, Manana, Cowgirl, Pink Adobe, Coyote Cafe, and a least five others I can think of but whose names I've forgotten. And for those interested in dancing, there's Paramount, http://www.theparamountnightclub.com/ and Cat's Upstairs has salsa on Thursdays. Guesstimating here, I can't see how the conference would cost more than about $100/day, so under $500 for the whole conference, or less than half of what Python10 costs. (This excludes the book proceedings, since I have no idea how much that costs.) The higher overall cost is because I think speakers should get some sort of discount. Downsides There are almost no direct flights to Santa Fe, unless you start from Denver, Albuquerque, or Phoenix. The flight from those cities to Santa Fe costs about $300, so most people will fly into Albuquerque (ABQ). From experience, I know there are direct flights to ABQ from Tampa, Oakland, LA, DC, Cleveland, and Minneapolis. ABQ is a big enough airport that rates are reasonable, esp. for those flying Southwest. But ABQ is about an hour from Santa Fe. There are two bus lines which shuttle between the downtown hotels (and the Radisson) to ABQ. They cost about $40 round trip. During the day there is up to about a 40 minute wait between busses. One of the companies is http://www.santafeshuttle.com/SFshuttle.htm and the other is http://www.sandiashuttle.com/ Santa Fe shuttle has a bus and can carry 50 or so people per trip. The biggest problem might be the crunch of people leaving at the end of the main conference. There are also rental cars. Enterprise and Alamo are at ABQ and have a local place for those interested in only renting a car for the drive but don't want to keep it while here. Alamo is near the Eldorado. And of course there are many others agencies for those interested in keeping the car during the stay (perhaps to go skiing or gambling or visit Taos or see the Shidoni foundry or ...) Eldorado will also pick people up from the train station at Lamy. There's a daily Amtrack train from Chicago and LA. Another problem is that I am not the best at negotiating. I may not be the right one to negotiate the details with the hotel, what with the available tradeoffs. Though I do know what they will do, so I'm not that bad. I also don't have a real support staff I can call on for help with pre-conference organization (getting the paperwork together, setting up the network, etc.) There are a few local Python people I might be able to pester, which might include some of the LANL people. The weather here is a bit broader than DC. Today's high was 46F, and low 19F (+7C/-7C). By comparison, DC today was 44/21 .. but we had blue, sunny skies. We do get some snow showers, but not like the blizzard in DC two years ago. We are above 3,000m (7000ft) elevation, which affects some people, though mostly only those who extert themselves. (The bottom of the ski area is at 10,200 ft, with the top above 12,000ft. "But the air's so thin and dry you don't feel the cold." :) Anyway, that's my plug. Andrew Dalke dalke@dalkescientific.com From aahz@rahul.net Thu Feb 14 02:16:10 2002 From: aahz@rahul.net (Aahz Maruch) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:16:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Santa Fe In-Reply-To: <05d601c1b4f4$49811220$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> from "Andrew Dalke" at Feb 13, 2002 06:09:42 PM Message-ID: <20020214021611.3C528E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Andrew Dalke wrote: > > Independent of the other discussions, let me make a plug > here for my home town of Santa Fe, New Mexico. My primary would really, *really*, *REALLY* love this.... > There are almost no direct flights to Santa Fe, ...but as I said earlier, I'm strongly opposed to conferences far from a decent airport. IMO, the shorter the conference, the more important this point is. It's kind of funny you brought this up, because yesterday I was wearing my t-shirt that says, "Another victim of Santa Fe style". -- --- Aahz (@pobox.com) Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/ Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista We must not let the evil of a few trample the freedoms of the many. From beazley@cs.uchicago.edu Thu Feb 14 02:20:11 2002 From: beazley@cs.uchicago.edu (David Beazley) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:20:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Santa Fe In-Reply-To: <05d601c1b4f4$49811220$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> References: <05d601c1b4f4$49811220$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> Message-ID: <15467.7899.655907.392330@gargoyle.cs.uchicago.edu> Andrew Dalke writes: > Independent of the other discussions, let me make a plug > here for my home town of Santa Fe, New Mexico. Santa Fe would be very nice! I would like to add one additional benefit of this: - It's reasonably close to Los Alamos National Laboratory and Sandia National Laboratory---both of which have many Python users and from which you could probably get good attendance. If you asked the right people, they might even be able to help organize such an event. Of course, holding the conference during ski season would also be a big plus :-). Cheers, Dave From barry@zope.com Thu Feb 14 04:10:02 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:10:02 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Crackle, crackle, "hello"... References: <3CB0F5B7@mail.pdq.net> Message-ID: <15467.14490.327878.933867@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "RF" == Robin Friedrich writes: RF> The idea of a separate YAPC-style conference for Python is RF> also great. Calling it a "workshop" rather than a RF> "conference" actually makes a difference to many employers RF> though. A workshop can be booked under employee development RF> while a conference cannot. So let's call it the Python RF> Workshop and have it focus on futures and works in progress RF> rather than an academic paper medium. Absolutely +1. I completely agree with the majority sentiment here that we should hook up with OSCON for the Moulin Rouge-style conference. IMO, the best way to expand the Python community is to find people and a community that's closely related, and I can't think of a better opportunity than OSCON. One thing I'd really like to see in a YAPC-style workshop is a focus on getting things accomplished. In Zopeland, XP-style sprints are all the rage, are actually kind of fun, a great way for imparting wisdom from gurus to mortals, and accomplishing a lot of really good coding. I believe OSCON also has leading or trailing hackfests. I'd /love/ to see something similar for Python. Imagine what we could do with a room full of Python hackers coding like mad for a couple of days. :) -Barry From barry@zope.com Thu Feb 14 04:26:20 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:26:20 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? References: <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> <200202131727.g1DHRn517094@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <15467.15468.141829.938069@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "GvR" == Guido van Rossum writes: GvR> Copy-editing is very expensive and doesn't happen for any GvR> conference materials ever, except for very expensive ones. GvR> Most academic conferences can't afford this. Yes, but it would seem that ORA would be supremely qualified to do good copy editing. ;) Me, I like the printed proceedings, even more so a year or so after the conference. I like reading the papers -- on paper. I don't know how much it adds, but even $20-$50 on the price of the big conference seems like a good value to me. -Barry From jacob@strakt.com Thu Feb 14 11:53:23 2002 From: jacob@strakt.com (Jacob =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:53:23 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Santa Fe References: <20020214021611.3C528E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Message-ID: <3C6BA533.1030307@strakt.com> Aahz Maruch wrote: > >...but as I said earlier, I'm strongly opposed to conferences far from a >decent airport. IMO, the shorter the conference, the more important >this point is. > The hour from ABQ to Santa F=E9 is comparable to the transit time from=20 Alexandria to Dulles. I would say that this is in the range of 'decent'=20 distance. Jacob Hall=E9n From lac@strakt.com Thu Feb 14 14:51:50 2002 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:51:50 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? In-Reply-To: Message from barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:26:20 EST." <15467.15468.141829.938069@anthem.wooz.org> References: <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> <200202131727.g1DHRn517094@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> <15467.15468.141829.938069@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <200202141451.g1EEpoGo001808@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> I just read the conference proceedings that Jacob Hall=E9n brought back from Python 10. It is required reading here at this company. = Laura Creighton From guido@python.org Thu Feb 14 14:59:29 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:59:29 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:26:20 EST." <15467.15468.141829.938069@anthem.wooz.org> References: <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> <200202131727.g1DHRn517094@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> <15467.15468.141829.938069@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <200202141459.g1EExUr23137@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> > Me, I like the printed proceedings, even more so a year or so after > the conference. I like reading the papers -- on paper. I don't know > how much it adds, but even $20-$50 on the price of the big conference > seems like a good value to me. Maybe printed proceedings could be sold separately. When you pre-register you get them at a discount. They can also be sold by mail-order to non-attendees. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From thomas.heller@ion-tof.com Thu Feb 14 14:58:35 2002 From: thomas.heller@ion-tof.com (Thomas Heller) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:58:35 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? References: <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> <200202131727.g1DHRn517094@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> <15467.15468.141829.938069@anthem.wooz.org> <200202141451.g1EEpoGo001808@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <003001c1b568$14194070$e000a8c0@thomasnotebook> From: "Laura Creighton" > I just read the conference proceedings that Jacob Hallén brought back > from Python 10. It is required reading here at this company. > > Laura Creighton How can to get them (I was not at the conference)? Thomas From aahz@rahul.net Thu Feb 14 15:31:36 2002 From: aahz@rahul.net (Aahz Maruch) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:31:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Santa Fe In-Reply-To: <3C6BA533.1030307@strakt.com> from "Jacob =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hall=E9n?=" at Feb 14, 2002 12:53:23 PM Message-ID: <20020214153136.C3923E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Jacob =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hall=E9n?= wrote: > Aahz Maruch wrote: >> >>...but as I said earlier, I'm strongly opposed to conferences far from a >>decent airport. IMO, the shorter the conference, the more important >>this point is. > > The hour from ABQ to Santa Fe is comparable to the transit time from > Alexandria to Dulles. I would say that this is in the range of 'decent' > distance. Knowing that, I would be against any further conferences in Alexandria. I wonder if that played a part in anyone's decision to skip it? (I wasn't aware of the distance earlier.) Obviously, my preferences count for only a tiny bit, but I can't be the only person who hates long transits to/from airports. Oh, there's one other difference: Alexandria is at least smack in the middle of the East Coast, so it's feasible for many people to take alternate transportation. -- --- Aahz (@pobox.com) Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/ Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista We must not let the evil of a few trample the freedoms of the many. From guido@python.org Thu Feb 14 15:40:19 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:40:19 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Santa Fe In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:31:36 PST." <20020214153136.C3923E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> References: <20020214153136.C3923E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Message-ID: <200202141540.g1EFeJI23295@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> > > The hour from ABQ to Santa Fe is comparable to the transit time from > > Alexandria to Dulles. I would say that this is in the range of 'decent' > > distance. > > Knowing that, I would be against any further conferences in Alexandria. > I wonder if that played a part in anyone's decision to skip it? (I > wasn't aware of the distance earlier.) [Reagan] National airport is *in* Alexandria though. So this depends on choosing airlines (United flies to Dulles only, Delta to National). I expect it wasn't an issue. People flew to BWI which is much farther but has all the discount airlines (like Southwest). --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From lac@strakt.com Thu Feb 14 15:44:38 2002 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:44:38 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Santa Fe In-Reply-To: Message from Guido van Rossum of "Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:40:19 EST." <200202141540.g1EFeJI23295@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> References: <20020214153136.C3923E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> <200202141540.g1EFeJI23295@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <200202141544.g1EFicGo002486@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> I don't think there are any Non-North American flights to National. This used to be the case at any rate. Laura Creighton From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Thu Feb 14 15:54:32 2002 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:54:32 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Santa Fe In-Reply-To: <200202141544.g1EFicGo002486@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <20020214153136.C3923E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> <200202141540.g1EFeJI23295@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> <200202141544.g1EFicGo002486@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20020214155432.GA15929@dust.mems-exchange.org> On Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:44:38PM +0100, Laura Creighton wrote: >I don't think there are any Non-North American flights to National. This >used to be the case at any rate. National only has flights to cities within a radius of 1000 miles. (This limit is occasionally increased by Congress when a west coast Congressman finds it too inconvenient to drive all the way out to Dulles.) --amk (www.amk.ca) I'm not a metaphysical man. I'm a minister. That's my job. -- The minister in THE MYSTERY PLAY From skip@pobox.com Thu Feb 14 16:23:14 2002 From: skip@pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:23:14 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? In-Reply-To: <003001c1b568$14194070$e000a8c0@thomasnotebook> References: <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> <200202131727.g1DHRn517094@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> <15467.15468.141829.938069@anthem.wooz.org> <200202141451.g1EEpoGo001808@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <003001c1b568$14194070$e000a8c0@thomasnotebook> Message-ID: <15467.58482.403488.880896@beluga.mojam.com> Thomas> How can to get them (I was not at the conference)? I imagine you can contact Fortec to see if they have extras. They also handed out conference proceeding CDs. I haven't even cracked the cellophane on mine. Assuming there's nothing extra on the CD I'd be happy to mail you mine. Skip From thomas.heller@ion-tof.com Thu Feb 14 16:35:18 2002 From: thomas.heller@ion-tof.com (Thomas Heller) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:35:18 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Printed proceedings? References: <20020213170523.GA1680@gerg.ca> <200202131727.g1DHRn517094@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> <15467.15468.141829.938069@anthem.wooz.org> <200202141451.g1EEpoGo001808@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <003001c1b568$14194070$e000a8c0@thomasnotebook> <15467.58482.403488.880896@beluga.mojam.com> Message-ID: <013701c1b575$969d3210$e000a8c0@thomasnotebook> From: "Skip Montanaro" > > Thomas> How can to get them (I was not at the conference)? > > I imagine you can contact Fortec to see if they have extras. I'm currently trying this. If it fails, I'll contact one of you again. Thanks, Thomas From Andrew Dalke" Back in ancient prehistory, before there were any Python books, we took the postscript documents to Kinko's and had them printed out and velo bound with. I imagine that technology is still available. This means two things: - we could charge extra during early registration for those who want us to do it for them - everyone else who wants hardcopy can trundle on down to their local copy store and print it out. I like the idea that paper submitters should send in PDF, so there will be no issues with reformatting. And couldn't we pester the ReportLab folk if there are any problems? :) BTW, there's a copy store about a block or two from the Eldorado here in Santa Fe. :) Andrew dalke@dalkescientific.com From DavidA@ActiveState.com Thu Feb 14 18:11:12 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:11:12 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... References: <20020214153136.C3923E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Message-ID: <3C6BFDC0.2A23502E@activestate.com> While getting the votes on the various issues of proceedings, locations, etc. is useful, I'm a bit worried about the way this discussion is going. I may be attributing expectations which aren't true, but if people expect that by voicing their personal opinion they will significantly affect the details of the conference, I'm afraid they may end up dissapointed. Let me put forth my (possibly unpopular) views. 1) We need to find out what the broad consensus is regarding the 1st order characteristics of the conference (cost range, accomodation type, time of year, academic/marketing biases). 2) There needs to be a set of people willing to organize things who are perceived by the community to represent the best interests of the community at large. 3) That organizing committee needs to make the best decisions they can on behalf of the greater community, and the greater community needs to, at the same time, contribute opinions, but then _back off_ and let the organizing committee run the show, including making all of the important but not-democratically-decidable choices of exact location, exact time, exact conference format, etc. I don't expect the membership of this mailing list to _a priori_ have volunteered for duty in the program committee, i.e. 2) -- I expect us all to be people who want to help define 1) at this stage. However, I also expect that the membership of this list is _not_ representative of the broader python population, simply because most people have a high-threshold for signing up to mailing lists, many people on the periphery may have missed the announcement, etc. Once 1) is established, hopefully the organizing committee would emerge out of the discussion, and those people would talk to the YAS and other conference organizers/facilitators about details, cost structure choices, etc. In an effort to be practical and goal-oriented, let me suggest that one of the goals of this list is to design a web-poll, with which we can extract broad feedback from the overall Python community. Some of the questions which I would think would make sense to ask include: Location: Rate your top three preferences [ ] East Coast, US [ ] West Coast, US [ ] South, US [ ] Midwest, US [ ] Canada [ ] Europe Type of conference: 1) Workshop -- more talks on internals, development issues 2) Conference -- more talks on case studies Time of year May-June July-August Sept-Oct Jan-Feb other. [I have no idea what times are possible] Preferred conference & hotel costs acceptable: $100 $250 $400 $500 $750 $1000 $1500 Maximum conference & hotel costs acceptable: $100 $250 $400 $500 $750 $1000 $1500 Type of accomodation acceptable: - dorm room - cheap hotel - nice hotel Do you expect your employer to pay for your conference costs: Y/N Are you on a low income: Y/N If you had to pay for paper conference proceedings separately, how much would you want to pay: [$ ] etc. etc. etc. If there's agreement to do this, I volunteer to write the Quixote code to gather the data, although if someone who actually does web stuff seriously wants to do it, I'll gladly _not_ do it =). Note that to me, the primary motivation for this poll is not primarily to gather feedback from all the people who've gone to the IPC conferences in the past (many have already made their opinions known). I'm hoping that by a broader poll, we can either find out if that community is representative of the larger community (likely!), or if there is a significantly different community out there which simply hasn't been part of the IPC tradition for a variety of reasons. Importantly, the program committee can use the data from the poll, confident that they _are_ representing the community when making a set of important decisions. --david From aahz@rahul.net Thu Feb 14 18:23:37 2002 From: aahz@rahul.net (Aahz Maruch) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:23:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: <3C6BFDC0.2A23502E@activestate.com> from "David Ascher" at Feb 14, 2002 10:11:12 AM Message-ID: <20020214182338.7D7BCE8C1@waltz.rahul.net> David Ascher wrote: > > While getting the votes on the various issues of proceedings, locations, > etc. is useful, I'm a bit worried about the way this discussion is > going. > > I may be attributing expectations which aren't true, but if people > expect that by voicing their personal opinion they will significantly > affect the details of the conference, I'm afraid they may end up > dissapointed. My take is that what we're seeing is the result of consensus that we want something kind of like YAPC, and we're treading water while we wait for Guido to tell us what YAS wants from us to get moving. I think your idea of a web poll is a good one. I just wonder when the best time is for it. (I also think it should require an e-mail address to prevent ballot-stuffing. ;-) Let me ask Guido a couple of direct questions: Guido, do you want to be the point person for YAS (if not, do you want a volunteer for liaison)? What do you see as the mandate for this list now that we've basically agreed to the combination of OSCON/Python Conference plus a Python Workshop? -- --- Aahz (@pobox.com) Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/ Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista We must not let the evil of a few trample the freedoms of the many. From DavidA@ActiveState.com Thu Feb 14 18:27:56 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:27:56 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... References: <20020214182338.7D7BCE8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Message-ID: <3C6C01AC.43ACC285@activestate.com> > Let me ask Guido a couple of direct questions: Guido, do you want to be > the point person for YAS (if not, do you want a volunteer for liaison)? I'll answer for Guido, since I've been the point-person for YAS up to now =) 1) Adam Turoff is closely affiliated with YAS (as a friend, I think, not a director), and is on the list. 2) YAS has offered to facilitate the conference, as Adam mentioned in the past. 3) Others have offered to facilitate/organize as well. I don't want to mention them by name without prior agreement, but I invite them to speak up now. Note that the YAS model is "dirt cheap" and "volunteer heavy". This may or may not be what best fits the Python community. I'm especially worried about the volunteer heavy part =). --david From robinf1@pdq.net Thu Feb 14 18:27:54 2002 From: robinf1@pdq.net (Robin Friedrich) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:27:54 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... Message-ID: <3CB96E27@mail.pdq.net> +1 for David's approach. I would subtract the question of how much you would _like_ to pay and in it's place a question about the reasons why you have not attended prior IPCs. (non-exclusive choices, expand as appropriate) * Too far to travel * Wrong time of year * Lodging costs too high * Conference fees too high * Company won't fund a Python only trip * Conflicts with school * Been there done that From lac@strakt.com Thu Feb 14 18:35:31 2002 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:35:31 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Pardon me but what is YAS and YAPC? Message-ID: <200202141835.g1EIZVL5003570@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> You are lost in a maze of twisty little acronyms, Laura From DavidA@ActiveState.com Thu Feb 14 18:43:51 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:43:51 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Pardon me but what is YAS and YAPC? References: <200202141835.g1EIZVL5003570@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <3C6C0567.7095172C@activestate.com> Laura Creighton wrote: > > You are lost in a maze of twisty little acronyms, YAS: Yet Another Society -- www.yetanother.org YAPC: Yet Another Perl Conference -- see the same URL. =) From lac@strakt.com Thu Feb 14 18:46:17 2002 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:46:17 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: Message from David Ascher of "Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:11:12 PST." <3C6BFDC0.2A23502E@activestate.com> References: <20020214153136.C3923E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> <3C6BFDC0.2A23502E@activestate.com> Message-ID: <200202141846.g1EIkHGo003633@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Finding a community is hard. I would like to reach the people who are too busy coding in python to read newsgroups or join mailinglists. How do we find them? Laura Creighton From Andrew Dalke" David Ascher: > Rate your top three preferences > [ ] East Coast, US > [ ] West Coast, US > [ ] South, US > [ ] Midwest, US > [ ] Canada > [ ] Europe Hey, you're being regionalist here. You omitted the Southwest ;) as well as Alaska and Hawaii. True story: I was at a client site in San Francisco. One of the people there asked if I was from the East Coast or the West. "Neither," I replied. "Oh! The Midwest!" "Nope." After getting a quizzical face I said "Southwest." Another thing to point out is that a vote like this shouldn't be used as a majority rule. The last few conferences have been San Jose, Texas, DC, San Diego, DC You can call Texas part of the South or the Southwest, but it points out the Midwest is due a conference at some time. Location: Southwest Type of conference: I like the style of the previous conferences (is it a workshop or a conference style, or both?) Time of year: not summer (too many other conferences then, and summer travel is more expensive) I think Feb. is fine so long as it's not in places which are likely to get snow, ice storms, and other nasty weather. This also means Miami in September (height of hurrican season) is right out. :) Preferred conference & hotel costs acceptable: Conference: $500 for all four days hotel: range of costs, from 'business' expensive at the conf. site to cheap motels close by. I prefer $50/day or less. Maximum conference & hotel costs acceptable: Conference: I can't really justify over $700 for most conferences, which is why I could only attend the two main days for the last couple of years Hotel: I could deal with up to about $100/day. The more expensive it is the more likely I am to try to catch an early/late flight rather than spend the extra night; or find an alternate hotel and rent a car. Type of accomodation acceptable: dorm room or cheap hotel. Do you expect your employer to pay for your conference costs: self-employed Are you on a low income: Ummm.... Depends on what you call 'low'. I spend too much time working on open source software without getting a contract to do so, so I'm making about 1/2 what I could. So it's voluntarily low. If you had to pay for paper conference proceedings separately, how much would you want to pay: $10. My biggest problem with the conference is that I can't justify the cost of being for all four days, which means I'm pressed for time to see all the talks I want, and the BoFs, and meet the people I want to catch up with. I'm self employed and was able to stay with friends and freq. flier miles for the trip (most of my other travel is reimbursed by my clients), so my costs outside the conference was one night at the hotel and $20 for travel, or about $750. If there is some way to get the total cost of the conference (four days, plus travel, plus hotel) to under $800 then I would be happy. Working backwards: $200 / air fare = $200 (Travelocity charge for Boston to ABQ) 4 nights @ $50 = $200 ----- $800 - $400 ==> $400 for the conference. Andrew dalke@dalkescientific.com From jacob@strakt.com Thu Feb 14 19:03:55 2002 From: jacob@strakt.com (Jacob =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:03:55 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... References: <20020214153136.C3923E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> <3C6BFDC0.2A23502E@activestate.com> Message-ID: <3C6C0A1B.7000504@strakt.com> Some comments that may broaden the thinking around a poll: David Ascher wrote: > > Location: > Rate your top three preferences > [ ] East Coast, US > [ ] West Coast, US > [ ] South, US > [ ] Midwest, US > [ ] Canada > [ ] Europe > One idea is to have a rotating conference. With the standardisation conferences in the library world, we have members volunteer to host a meeting, with a planning horizon of about 2 mmetings into the future. These meetings are rather small with about 80 attendees max. They usually have two meetings in North America followed by one meeting elsewhere (usually Europe). I think it is very much a matter of where we can get the key people (Guido, Tim, Barry, David, Martin et al) to show up. > > > Type of conference: > 1) Workshop -- more talks on internals, development issues > 2) Conference -- more talks on case studies > > Time of year > May-June > July-August > Sept-Oct > Jan-Feb > other. [I have no idea what times are possible] > Is this very important? My own criteria is that it shouldn't overlap with OSCON. Either it should be back-to-back with it to save travel costs or it should be at a different time of year. > > > Preferred conference & hotel costs acceptable: > $100 > $250 > $400 > $500 > $750 > $1000 > $1500 > Maybe: What do you think is a reasonable cost for a 4 day conference? > > > Maximum conference & hotel costs acceptable: > $100 > $250 > $400 > $500 > $750 > $1000 > $1500 > > Type of accomodation acceptable: > - dorm room > - cheap hotel > - nice hotel > Make this a preference question. My personal would be 1. Cheap Hotel 2. Dorm Room 3. Nice hotel. Any one is acceptable. > From guido@python.org Thu Feb 14 19:18:30 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:18:30 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:23:37 PST." <20020214182338.7D7BCE8C1@waltz.rahul.net> References: <20020214182338.7D7BCE8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Message-ID: <200202141918.g1EJIUR23916@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> > My take is that what we're seeing is the result of consensus that we > want something kind of like YAPC, and we're treading water while we wait > for Guido to tell us what YAS wants from us to get moving. Don't wait for me!!! I'm currently on the road and there are others who are closer to YAS. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From DavidA@ActiveState.com Thu Feb 14 19:22:11 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:22:11 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... References: <0a6701c1b589$27534480$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> Message-ID: <3C6C0E63.1C04AA4D@activestate.com> > You can call Texas part of the South or the Southwest, but it > points out the Midwest is due a conference at some time. There's nothing _due_ to any region, state, county, or principality! I expect the conference locations to be near large concentrations of the target audience and/or where we can find appropriate accomodations. I happen to live far from both the east and west coast, as you do. But it makes little sense for me to say that British Columbia is due a conference. British Columbia might be a good place to run a conference because the canadian dollar is so low and the accomodations/environment make it a great place to be, but it's got nothing to do with being "due" anything. Somehow, this is the inverse problem of NIMBY -- everyone wants to go to a conference and no one wants to travel to go there. I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. Personally, I do expect something like a weighted score (blending audience preferences with appropriate locations and cost) to decide the location. If the primary goal of the conference is to make it accessible to a broader audience than in the past, then locating it in a part of the world which is hard to reach for most people makes zero sense to me. Similarly, spending an hour getting from the airport to the conference is frankly a third-order effect if it means that 1) more people can get there and 2) the conference is $100 cheaper for everyone. Travel costs are real, and I don't want to diminish the impact of travel costs on people, but 1) travel costs can to some extent be mitigated, by planning, charter fares, discount airlines, carpooling, greyhound, etc. and 2) the oddities and "unfairness" of airline price structures are a fact of life that we can't do anything about. There is simply no way (except maybe by making the conference hard to reach for everyone -- antartica, anyone?) to make the costs both fair and as low as possible for as many people as possible. We could setup a travel fund to equalize travel costs, but that, too, is not a first-order problem IMO. > Type of conference: I like the style of the previous conferences > (is it a workshop or a conference style, or both?) Can we please _not_ answer this half-baked poll right now? I want us to come up with questions, _not_ answers! --david From DavidA@ActiveState.com Thu Feb 14 19:27:14 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:27:14 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... References: <20020214153136.C3923E8C1@waltz.rahul.net> <3C6BFDC0.2A23502E@activestate.com> <3C6C0A1B.7000504@strakt.com> Message-ID: <3C6C0F92.AAAC7138@activestate.com> > One idea is to have a rotating conference. With the standardisation > conferences in the library world, we have members volunteer to host a > meeting, with a planning horizon of about 2 mmetings into the future. > These meetings are rather small with about 80 attendees max. They > usually have two meetings in North America followed by one meeting > elsewhere (usually Europe). I think it is very much a matter of where we > can get the key people (Guido, Tim, Barry, David, Martin et al) to show up. If we all had 'strong' university or similar affiliations and were fairly uniformly distributed, I think that might make sense. I got the impression from Guido that there's a massive predominance of north-americans in the community. That would be a good thing to get out of the poll. In general, though, I think it's easier to get people to go to one conference than three =). The bigger the conference the easier it is to get budget approval, too. Final comment on that topic: I think standardization groups have very different dynamics than we do. They try to get things done in a very hostile environment. We just want to have fun, and happen to get things done because it's fun. =) > > Time of year > > May-June > > July-August > > Sept-Oct > > Jan-Feb > > other. [I have no idea what times are possible] > > > Is this very important? My own criteria is that it shouldn't overlap > with OSCON. Either it should be back-to-back with it to save travel > costs or it should be at a different time of year. I put it there because it was mentioned to me as an important criterion by others -- they weren't able to justify two conferences in the same month (mostly in terms of absence from day-to-day duties, I think). > Maybe: What do you think is a reasonable cost for a 4 day conference? It all depends on the amenities. The range is $50 to $1500. =) > > Type of accomodation acceptable: > > - dorm room > > - cheap hotel > > - nice hotel > > > Make this a preference question. Good point. FYI, I didn't mean for that poll to be "the" poll or even a real draft. I don't think we're there yet. --david From skip@pobox.com Thu Feb 14 19:29:47 2002 From: skip@pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:29:47 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: <3C6C0E63.1C04AA4D@activestate.com> References: <0a6701c1b589$27534480$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> <3C6C0E63.1C04AA4D@activestate.com> Message-ID: <15468.4139.960165.95749@beluga.mojam.com> David> There's nothing _due_ to any region, state, county, or David> principality! Agreed. Still, I think it would be worthwhile to at least put Australia as an option in your list. The Aussies seemed to be pretty well-represented at IPC10, and let's not forget that when we're freezing our asses off in the midwest, they are getting tan on the beaches in Oz. Skip From Andrew Dalke" >> You can call Texas part of the South or the Southwest, but it >> points out the Midwest is due a conference at some time. > >There's nothing _due_ to any region, state, county, or principality! I >expect the conference locations to be near large concentrations of the >target audience and/or where we can find appropriate accomodations. My apologies. Bad word choice. Meant to say "I expect there are a lot of people who use Python in the Midwest and would like to attend a conference which is a tad bit closer. Given the population densities of the East and West Coasts it make sense that most of the conferences have been there, but looking at the weights it suggests that we may want to consider the Midwest (with big airports at Chicago, Minneapolis, Indianapolis and St. Louis) as a possibility." >Somehow, this is the inverse problem of NIMBY -- everyone wants to go to >a conference and no one wants to travel to go there. I'm sorry, but >that doesn't work. There are a couple exceptions to this. I realize that living in Santa Fe I made a deliberate choice that travel would be more difficult/expensive than if I lived in, say, San Francisco. I wouldn't want people to come here solely because I live here. I did after all say that the Midwest might be an appropriate place (much as I hated my five winters at the Univ. of Illinois.). Venue location isn't that strong of a preference to me, since I have made it to the two DC conferences. Except that since I hate being frisked I now strongly urge not using places in the Northeast. The other exception is that some people want to go to touristy or exotic places for a conference. One such is PSB (Pacific Symposium for Biocomputing) which meets in Hawaii in early January. That has the double advantage of being in a beautiful location and in what is the middle of a frigid winter for most of the rest of the US. (Santa Fe falls in this list as well, esp. for skiers.) >Travel costs are real, and I don't want to diminish the impact of travel >costs on people, The nice thing about the Python conference is that it's in the low travel season. I can cross the country for $250. Distance then isn't a real concern for me. >Can we please _not_ answer this half-baked poll right now? I want us to >come up with questions, _not_ answers! Oops. Sorry. Though implicit in that answer was that I couldn't answer the question because I didn't know what label would be applied to the current conference. Perhaps you can think of it as usability testing? :) Andrew dalke@dalkescientific.com From DavidA@ActiveState.com Thu Feb 14 19:43:01 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:43:01 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... References: <0a6701c1b589$27534480$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> <3C6C0E63.1C04AA4D@activestate.com> <15468.4139.960165.95749@beluga.mojam.com> Message-ID: <3C6C1345.99689DCD@activestate.com> Skip Montanaro wrote: > > David> There's nothing _due_ to any region, state, county, or > David> principality! > > Agreed. Still, I think it would be worthwhile to at least put Australia as > an option in your list. The Aussies seemed to be pretty well-represented at > IPC10, and let's not forget that when we're freezing our asses off in the > midwest, they are getting tan on the beaches in Oz. Your comment and others make me think that there's real value in trying to figure out where Pythonistas _are_, somewhat indepedently of where they're willing to go. It might be easier to get good numbers by looking at the logs from python.org, however. --david From DavidA@ActiveState.com Thu Feb 14 19:48:51 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:48:51 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... References: <0a9901c1b58f$8d043ae0$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> Message-ID: <3C6C14A3.EA1425A3@activestate.com> BTW, I completely agree about the midwest having assets, among which: 1) several airplane hubs -- central in the weird topology of airline travel 2) central for train/bus rides 3) lots of big universities with big dorms and big auditoriums and big folks =) 4) tends to be lower cost-of-living than either coast. 5) Dave Beazley can run the whole thing. --david From skip@pobox.com Thu Feb 14 20:41:16 2002 From: skip@pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:41:16 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: <3C6C14A3.EA1425A3@activestate.com> References: <0a9901c1b58f$8d043ae0$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> <3C6C14A3.EA1425A3@activestate.com> Message-ID: <15468.8428.331980.450199@beluga.mojam.com> >>>>> "David" == David Ascher writes: David> BTW, I completely agree about the midwest having assets, among David> which: David> 1) several airplane hubs -- central in the weird topology of David> airline travel Assuming the mechanics union doesn't put United out of business. :-) David> 3) lots of big universities with big dorms and big auditoriums David> and big folks =) I live in Evanston and work about two blocks from Northwestern University and less than a block from a brand new (open less than six months & I think moderately priced) Hilton. I'd offer to do the university/hotel liaison thing if I knew I was going to be here in 6-12 months. Evanston also bills itself as the restaurant center of Chicago's north shore. There are definitely plenty of options, from Cross Rhodes (cheap Greek eats) to Va Pensiero and Campagnola (very expensive Italian grub) and everything in between. Yahoo!'s yellow pages lists 100 restaurants. I'd guess there are 20-30 within easy walking distance of the university. We would not lack for food choices. Of course, if you're willing to spring a few bucks to ride the L, Chicago itself is right next door... David> 4) tends to be lower cost-of-living than either coast. That depends. David> 5) Dave Beazley can run the whole thing. I suspect Dave will be speaking up shortly. ;-) From ziggy@panix.com Thu Feb 14 20:56:33 2002 From: ziggy@panix.com (Adam Turoff) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:56:33 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: <15468.4139.960165.95749@beluga.mojam.com> References: <0a6701c1b589$27534480$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> <3C6C0E63.1C04AA4D@activestate.com> <15468.4139.960165.95749@beluga.mojam.com> Message-ID: <20020214205633.GB19360@panix.com> On Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 01:29:47PM -0600, Skip Montanaro wrote: > > David> There's nothing _due_ to any region, state, county, or > David> principality! > > Agreed. Still, I think it would be worthwhile to at least put Australia as > an option in your list. The Aussies seemed to be pretty well-represented at > IPC10, and let's not forget that when we're freezing our asses off in the > midwest, they are getting tan on the beaches in Oz. That's not really a good argument for having the one big grass-roots event in Oz. That *is* a really good argument for having a series of smaller, local grassroots events around the world, including one in Oz primarily for the convi^Wlocals. :-) (Hint: this is what Perlfolk are doing, with two small annual events in Europe, one big huge commercial event in California, one small grass-roots event in the east/midwest, and one on-again/off-again event in Japan. Each year. For the last two-three years.) (Hint: The BSD folks are learning this too. There used to be a single event in Japan every year, and recently there's an annual event that used to be held in Bezerkerly [now organized as a USENIX event], and this past fall there was the first small European event in England.) (Hint: The Tcl folks don't seem to have caught on to this trend...:-) Just another two perls to throw into the discussion, Z. From guido@python.org Thu Feb 14 21:58:46 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:58:46 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:56:33 EST." <20020214205633.GB19360@panix.com> References: <0a6701c1b589$27534480$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> <3C6C0E63.1C04AA4D@activestate.com> <15468.4139.960165.95749@beluga.mojam.com> <20020214205633.GB19360@panix.com> Message-ID: <200202142158.g1ELwkH24406@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> > That *is* a really good argument for having a series of smaller, local > grassroots events around the world, including one in Oz primarily > for the convi^Wlocals. I like this idea very much. That's why we have EuroPython. In past years we've had other local events like JPF001 in Bordeaux a few years ago. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From ziggy@panix.com Thu Feb 14 22:14:23 2002 From: ziggy@panix.com (Adam Turoff) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:14:23 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: <20020214182338.7D7BCE8C1@waltz.rahul.net> References: <3C6BFDC0.2A23502E@activestate.com> <20020214182338.7D7BCE8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Message-ID: <20020214221423.GC19360@panix.com> On Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 10:23:37AM -0800, Aahz Maruch wrote: > My take is that what we're seeing is the result of consensus that we > want something kind of like YAPC, and we're treading water while we wait > for Guido to tell us what YAS wants from us to get moving. Speaking with my YAS hat on... YAPC has always been a self-organizing event. That's the way we created it, that's the way we wanted it, that's the way it's worked for us. Furthermore, the model has been repeatedly successful -- at least for our community, filling our expectations and suiting our needs. The recipe is actually quite simple: Assume you'll get enough content. (Hasn't been a problem so far) Find a venue that provides: enough room for the attendees enough room for all of the concurrent tracks basic power, projector, etc. ethernet Add catering breakfast beverages and such at break lunch (or proximity to lunch) dinner (or proximity to dinner) Handle lodging, transportation, etc. proximity to hotels, group discounts if possible should be close to typical transit hubs Add frills proceedings 802.11b conference area network badges tshirts tote bags / lanyards / swag / etc. These issues need to be tackled in pretty much this order. I neglected to mention budgetary issues. Part of that is because the low-cost aspect of YAPC is an integral part to how we define it; sponsorship has been a fundemental aspect of any YAPC, with sponsors providing the funds for proceedings, some of the catering, etc. How do we choose a location? Simple: A host committee puts together a rough proposal that covers the basic requirements (venue, catering, lodging, etc.) The best proposal is chosen The site is announced For YAPC, the selection of "best proposal" incorporates total cost for the event, cost to the attendee, and proximity to dorms/cheap student lodging. Location is a factor in that we want to bring Perl events to those who can't get to California easily/cheaply for OSCON. We also want to keep the conference cost at or below US$100 for a three day event. Now, with all of that out of the way, what does YAS want? First off, we're not offering to take over the role of conference organizer (i.e. Fortec); we're more interested in community building. If the Python community wants to organize a conference (YAPC like or otherwise), we're happy to fill the role of facilitator and bring our experience to the table[*]. Most of the work would need to be done on a volunteer basis though -- the program committee, editing and formatting of the proceedings (if produced), the registration table, liasons with the host facility, etc. But what does YAS need in order to help put a Python event together? The first and most important thing all of us need (Pythonistas and YAS) is a clear idea of the expectations and requirements for this conference. If Pythonistas are used to paying upwards of $1000 in conference fees, is $250/3 days acceptable, or is the goal to meet the YAS model of $100/3 days? What are the expectations in terms of the number concurrent tracks? Number of presentations? Number of tutorials? How important is low-cost student accomodation? Is there a good time of year, or is facility availability a driving factor? Can someone use their contacts at a university? Do they want to volunteer as a liason? Do they want to make an introduction? Is this the One and Only International Python Conference, or is this a small regional conference? Are both required/necessary/desirable? How does this fit into plans for Python/Zope tracks at the O'Reilly conference? Just a few ideas to chew on, Z. *: YAS has done registration for YAPCs in the past. No reason why this couldn't be done for a Python conference as well. From paul@pfdubois.com Thu Feb 14 22:19:52 2002 From: paul@pfdubois.com (Paul F. Dubois) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:19:52 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] shh.... In-Reply-To: <15468.8428.331980.450199@beluga.mojam.com> Message-ID: <000101c1b5a5$b9b89e80$0a01a8c0@freedom> OK, the noise on here is already unbearable. So I'll add to it by commenting that Chicago may have an airport but YOU CAN'T EVER LAND AT IT. At least, not on the day or time you select. Also it has fine 100% humidity year round, and two temperature ranges, real hot and real cold. Some disconnected thoughts: To me it is a nobrainer to be a part of OSCON. It is even easier to convince employers and oneself to go to a conference where there are a variety of things to be learned. I don't find every single session of a Python conference contains material I find compelling, no matter how good it is. It is nice to know other things are around. Those of you who have never taken part in running a conference have absolutely no idea how much is involved. Even the "small" conference at LLNL was a significant amount of work for us. (By the way, the DOE now has new restrictions on us running conferences and I doubt that we could do it again.) Those advocating "amateur" conferences need to be realistic about what happens when 300 people show up. Emergency messages, lunch, coffee, ...; as Guido said, you can't just all go over to Starbucks. The lightening talks were fantastic. Anybody can stand even a horrible talk if it stops soon, so ref'ing these is not needed IMHO. I got a lot of info in a short time. This needs to be part of the main conference. From gward@python.net Thu Feb 14 22:24:10 2002 From: gward@python.net (Greg Ward) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:24:10 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: <3C6C01AC.43ACC285@activestate.com> References: <20020214182338.7D7BCE8C1@waltz.rahul.net> <3C6C01AC.43ACC285@activestate.com> Message-ID: <20020214222410.GA3918@gerg.ca> On 14 February 2002, David Ascher said: > Note that the YAS model is "dirt cheap" and "volunteer heavy". This may > or may not be what best fits the Python community. I'm especially > worried about the volunteer heavy part =). The major danger with the Python community is that everyone will expect on an absolutely smooth-running conference, with all the latest high-tech bells and whistles, automatic fail-over to a backup facility, and perfect communication between everyone involved. We'll all say, "That should be doable with Python", and then wait for someone else to implement it all. Three years later, we'll wonder when the conference is, and start the whole discussion all over again -- only this time, Python will have some new features that will make it trivial to add even more functionality to the conference... so we'll expect those new features to magically be added by someone, and wonder why ... ... oh never mind. You get the picture. ;-) Greg -- Greg Ward - Linux weenie gward@python.net http://starship.python.net/~gward/ In order to understand recursion, you really have to understand recursion. From barry@zope.com Thu Feb 14 22:28:35 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:28:35 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] shh.... References: <15468.8428.331980.450199@beluga.mojam.com> <000101c1b5a5$b9b89e80$0a01a8c0@freedom> Message-ID: <15468.14867.489942.859067@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "PFD" == Paul F Dubois writes: PFD> To me it is a nobrainer to be a part of OSCON. +1 PFD> The lightening talks were fantastic. Anybody can stand even a PFD> horrible talk if it stops soon, so ref'ing these is not PFD> needed IMHO. I got a lot of info in a short time. This needs PFD> to be part of the main conference. +1 -Barry From paul@pfdubois.com Thu Feb 14 22:28:02 2002 From: paul@pfdubois.com (Paul F. Dubois) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:28:02 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] world-wide conference series we might piggy-back In-Reply-To: <200202142158.g1ELwkH24406@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <000201c1b5a6$ddb66000$0a01a8c0@freedom> There is a series of object-oriented conferences held a variety of world locations already -- the TOOLS (Technology of Object-Oriented Languages and Systems) conferences. It might be possible to arrange Python tracks at those. I have been to the ones in Santa Barbara and France and they have them in the Pacific (usually Oz) and Eastern Europe. http://www.tools-conferences.com/ -----Original Message----- From: conferences-discuss-admin@python.org [mailto:conferences-discuss-admin@python.org] On Behalf Of Guido van Rossum Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 1:59 PM To: Adam Turoff Cc: conferences-discuss@python.org Subject: Re: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... > That *is* a really good argument for having a series of smaller, local > grassroots events around the world, including one in Oz primarily for > the convi^Wlocals. I like this idea very much. That's why we have EuroPython. In past years we've had other local events like JPF001 in Bordeaux a few years ago. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) _______________________________________________ Conferences-discuss mailing list Conferences-discuss@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/conferences-discuss From DavidA@ActiveState.com Thu Feb 14 22:38:00 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:38:00 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] shh.... References: <15468.8428.331980.450199@beluga.mojam.com> <000101c1b5a5$b9b89e80$0a01a8c0@freedom> <15468.14867.489942.859067@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <3C6C3C48.27730E01@activestate.com> > >>>>> "PFD" == Paul F Dubois writes: > > PFD> To me it is a nobrainer to be a part of OSCON. > > +1 As various people have said, I think that most people agree with that. I've heard one comment saying that "having to be under the O'Reilly umbrella" is a sign of weakness or some such (can't remember the details, was probably somewhat tipsy). In my mind, the main question is whether there's also a low-cost conference, like the Perl guys do it, and who runs it and when and how. --david From skip@pobox.com Thu Feb 14 23:30:24 2002 From: skip@pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:30:24 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] shh.... In-Reply-To: <000101c1b5a5$b9b89e80$0a01a8c0@freedom> References: <15468.8428.331980.450199@beluga.mojam.com> <000101c1b5a5$b9b89e80$0a01a8c0@freedom> Message-ID: <15468.18576.704414.695753@12-248-41-177.client.attbi.com> Paul> ... Chicago may have an airport but YOU CAN'T EVER LAND AT IT. Yes, O'Hare does have its bad days. September 11th has mitigated them somewhat, but the problem remains. Paul> Also it has fine 100% humidity year round, and two temperature Paul> ranges, real hot and real cold. Evanston is right on Lake Michigan with all that implies. (Northwestern has a very nice piece of lakefront real estate.) The lake tends to moderate the temperature. We're typically 5-10 degrees warmer in the winter and cooler by a similar amount in the summer. Skip From aahz@rahul.net Thu Feb 14 23:51:36 2002 From: aahz@rahul.net (Aahz Maruch) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:51:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] How much work? In-Reply-To: <000101c1b5a5$b9b89e80$0a01a8c0@freedom> from "Paul F. Dubois" at Feb 14, 2002 02:19:52 PM Message-ID: <20020214235136.92350E8C5@waltz.rahul.net> Paul F. Dubois wrote: > > Those of you who have never taken part in running a conference have > absolutely no idea how much is involved. Even the "small" conference at > LLNL was a significant amount of work for us. (By the way, the DOE now > has new restrictions on us running conferences and I doubt that we could > do it again.) Those advocating "amateur" conferences need to be > realistic about what happens when 300 people show up. Emergency > messages, lunch, coffee, ...; as Guido said, you can't just all go over > to Starbucks. >From my POV, that is both untrue and unfair, on two counts: * Some people have had the opportunity to observe how much work is involved in running a conference, even if they haven't actually "taken part". * Your statement implies a much higher lower bound to the necessary work than I believe to be accurate, based on my own experience in running a small convention. One can get away with fairly little work, as long as one scales and sets expectations accordingly. One lesson that I've learned from doing it myself and from watching other people: get a facility, and things will happen. Period. The facility is the *only* thing that matters to ensure that a small conference will happen. -- --- Aahz (@pobox.com) Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/ Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista We must not let the evil of a few trample the freedoms of the many. From altis@semi-retired.com Fri Feb 15 01:04:57 2002 From: altis@semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:04:57 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] academic recognition and meeting people Message-ID: As David suggests, I would like to see a poll that is actively promoted for a week or more to get meaningful results from a large and varied set of Python users and developers. I lean towards the solution of a Python track at OSCON (which I'm unlikely to attend) and at least one YAPC-style conference, which I'm more likely to attend. If someone wants to get academic recognition or credit at work for papers and presentations, then the OSCON conference would be appropriate, assuming OSCON publishes papers and slide proceedings. For everyone else, making the materials available online should be more than adequate. The web has made conferences as a method of information gathering sort of pointless. If you want a conference to reach a larger population of current and potential Python users, then you have to make all of the materials and sessions, daily blog proceedings, etc. available for free wherever possible. That way the conference can work for you even after it is over. OSCON is probably the best way to promote Python to a larger audience as well, which is something Python desperately needs right now, exposure outside the usual list of suspects to help grow the user base. BTW, I would like to note that the Introducing Python student video was great and if the love interest story line could be cut out and just keep the interviews and Python humor bits and then make it available from some higher capacity streaming sites it will be a nice promotional tool suitable for programmer and executive alike. I would like to discuss more the subject of Python PR and marketing efforts, but please email me directly rather than continuing the discussion on the list. I only mention it here because part of the point of a conference is PR for your topic area. I couldn't find the exact costs for attending OSCON, I'm assuming with conference, hotel, meals, and travel it will set you back $2500 or more. Does OSCON wave conference fees for presenters or people providing papers, training sessions, etc.? My only reason for going to a conference these days, which will come out of my own pocket, not as a work perk, is to meet people face to face. I would also be interested in working sessions where a lot of ground can be covered very quickly and consensus built that is otherwise difficult to do via a mailing list. This might also include extreme programming type sessions, which luckily Python is perfect for. But mostly it is the ability to meet folks that is the draw of conferences. OSCON is probably not a good place for that. ka --- Kevin Altis altis@semi-retired.com From DavidA@ActiveState.com Fri Feb 15 01:14:12 2002 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:14:12 -0800 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] academic recognition and meeting people References: Message-ID: <3C6C60E4.1CDAF277@activestate.com> > But mostly it is the ability to meet > folks that is the draw of conferences. OSCON is probably not a good place > for that. In my experience, OSCON is fine from that POV except if you're, like me, split between several tracks, booth duty, etc. But back before I was working for ActiveState and involved in Mozilla, OSCON was a fine socializing event, and a great place to meet people I had heard of who for whatever reason hadn't gone to IPC's (e.g. they were Perl people =). It's also a good place to make bridges with people who might not be Python fans but overlap in another dimension (application domain, country of origin, whatnot). If more Python folks go to OSCON, it doesn't take much to make it a successful social event. A focal point and some beer usually does it. IIRC, the first time there was a Python track (the next-to-last Monterey OSCON, I think) was a lot of fun even from "just" the Python perspective. I've also gotten more job offers at OSCON than at IPC =). Also, OSCON is trying to be family friendly, with a daycare option which worked well for us last year. Another third-order parameter which we can talk about at length. --david From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Feb 15 01:31:30 2002 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:31:30 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: <0a6701c1b589$27534480$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> References: <0a6701c1b589$27534480$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> Message-ID: <20020215013130.GB13546@vet.uu.nl> Andrew Dalke wrote: > David Ascher: > > Rate your top three preferences > > [ ] East Coast, US > > [ ] West Coast, US > > [ ] South, US > > [ ] Midwest, US > > [ ] Canada > > [ ] Europe > [snip snip] > Another thing to point out is that a vote like this shouldn't > be used as a majority rule. The last few conferences have been > San Jose, Texas, DC, San Diego, DC > You can call Texas part of the South or the Southwest, but it > points out the Midwest is due a conference at some time. > > Location: Southwest Amusing. You'd think Canada or Europe would be due instead. :) Anyway, Europe *is* due, even though everybody here so far seems to be mostly ignoring it (zilch replies to my message, and then a huge thread about this). That's not to say there's not to be any North American conference, and I'd be glad to attend it given the time and the money. There's a whole lot of duplication of effort and thought going on here, and my programmer's heart is telling me to look for a way to avoid such.. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Feb 15 01:34:46 2002 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:34:46 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: <200202142158.g1ELwkH24406@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> References: <0a6701c1b589$27534480$0201a8c0@josiah.dalkescientific.com> <3C6C0E63.1C04AA4D@activestate.com> <15468.4139.960165.95749@beluga.mojam.com> <20020214205633.GB19360@panix.com> <200202142158.g1ELwkH24406@pcp742651pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20020215013446.GC13546@vet.uu.nl> Guido van Rossum wrote: > > That *is* a really good argument for having a series of smaller, local > > grassroots events around the world, including one in Oz primarily > > for the convi^Wlocals. > > I like this idea very much. That's why we have EuroPython. In past > years we've had other local events like JPF001 in Bordeaux a few years > ago. Ah, finally, a mention! Anyway, I completely agree that a number of grassroots events around the world is a good idea. That way we can avoid getting dragged into discussions about which place is 'due' (like I just was). Note by the way that we don't expect attendance figures for EuroPython will be much less than IPC's, though of course we may be completely wrong. We'll just have to see. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Feb 15 01:41:27 2002 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:41:27 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] shh.... In-Reply-To: <3C6C3C48.27730E01@activestate.com> References: <15468.8428.331980.450199@beluga.mojam.com> <000101c1b5a5$b9b89e80$0a01a8c0@freedom> <15468.14867.489942.859067@anthem.wooz.org> <3C6C3C48.27730E01@activestate.com> Message-ID: <20020215014127.GD13546@vet.uu.nl> David Ascher wrote: > > >>>>> "PFD" == Paul F Dubois writes: > > > > PFD> To me it is a nobrainer to be a part of OSCON. > > > > +1 > > As various people have said, I think that most people agree with that. > I've heard one comment saying that "having to be under the O'Reilly > umbrella" is a sign of weakness or some such (can't remember the > details, was probably somewhat tipsy). Can't have been me, but I've been saying things somewhat similar, though I wouldn't say 'weakness'. But it's good PR for Python if there's a conference which is dedicated to the thing. Joining up with something such as OSCON can of course also be good for other reasons (evangelism, for instance, and cross-fertilization), but I wouldn't ignore the PR aspect. > In my mind, the main question is whether there's also a low-cost > conference, like the Perl guys do it, and who runs it and when and how. I can answer that question -- we're already organizing a low-cost conference here in Europe, next june. Want to come? :) http://www.europython.org Regards, Martijn From ark-mlist@research.att.com Fri Feb 15 04:03:11 2002 From: ark-mlist@research.att.com (Andrew Koenig) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:03:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Conferences-discuss] choice of venu Message-ID: <200202150403.g1F43Bg07987@europa.research.att.com> A serious problem as I see it is that the intended size of the conference has a great influence on the choice of venue, which in turn has a significant influence over the possible size. In other words: I can think of some *real* nice places that would hold 50 people but not 300, and I can think of some interesting places that would accommodate 300 people but not 1,000. -- Andrew Koenig, ark@research.att.com, http://www.research.att.com/info/ark From Andrew Dalke" Paul: >Those of you who have never taken part in running a conference have >absolutely no idea how much is involved. Even the "small" conference at >LLNL was a significant amount of work for us. I've helped run several conferences in the 15 to 150 people range, and saw some of the organization for a 300 people conference. I didn't think it was all that hard, but they were decidedly low-tech. Eg, the largest one was held on a university campus, with a single track. Food was only breaks (coffee and cookies, handled by the schools' services) and a box lunch. No reception, but there was a poster session. Only materials handed out were nametags and a folder with a photocopied list of attendees and the schedule. No useless tote bag, no T-shirt (which would have added about $10-$15 to the fee.) It did help that it was a satellite of a larger conference, so many people decided to come a couple days early. Let me say again, I find tote bags one of the most worthless tchotchkes I get at conferences. I would not be sad if we did not get one next year. I've been more involved with conferences in the 100 range. In one case, the biggest problem was we wanted to set up our own servers locally, and provided computers for people to log in. (This was before a lot of people had laptops.) At the others, the venues could handle more people than we had, so was readily able to provide the food and A/V needs. On the other hand, there were things at this conference that I haven't managed, like a press room. I also haven't managed multiple tracks - everyone was in the same room, and there was no need to break the room up, move seats around, etc. There were rooms for BoFs, but they didn't have projectors. Like I said, low-tech. >The lightening talks were fantastic. Anybody can stand even a horrible >talk if it stops soon, so ref'ing these is not needed IMHO. I got a lot >of info in a short time. This needs to be part of the main conference. Agreed! (Except I haven't been to them for a couple years.) I even introduced lightnings talks to one of the conferences I help run. :) Andrew dalke@dalkescientific.com From tim.one@home.com Fri Feb 15 07:31:09 2002 From: tim.one@home.com (Tim Peters) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:31:09 -0500 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Let's step back a bit... In-Reply-To: <20020214182338.7D7BCE8C1@waltz.rahul.net> Message-ID: [Aahz] > ... > Let me ask Guido a couple of direct questions: Guido, do you want to be > the point person for YAS No. > (if not, do you want a volunteer for liaison)? Of course. > What do you see as the mandate for this list now that we've basically > agreed to the combination of OSCON/Python Conference plus a Python > Workshop? Work to move beyond basic agreement to consensus, then work to make it reality. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) PS: If it appears that Tim forged this message, I'll tack his hide to the barn door when I get back (don't worry if you don't understand; it's an old Dutch saying; remember that every bird pecks with its own beak). From lac@strakt.com Fri Feb 15 11:38:44 2002 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:38:44 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] cheap lodging idea Message-ID: <200202151138.g1FBci0w004556@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> When I live in the US and we organised the early HACKERS conferences in the Bay Area (someplace near Cupertino, I believe) we rented a Jewish Children's Camp in the off season. People stayed in cabins. There were outdoor events and there were enough indoor meeting facilities. It was dirt cheap, as I recall. Good electricity as well, because boy did we ever bring gear. Just a thought. Laura Creighton (by the way, in case some of you missed this:) The 1st EuroPython/zope Conference June 26-28, 2002 -- Charleroi, Belgium http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython http://www.europython.org/wiki From yuri_2121@hotmail.com Fri Feb 22 10:30:13 2002 From: yuri_2121@hotmail.com (=?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCJGYkahsoQg==?=) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:30:13 +0900 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCJEgkQyRGJGI/P0xMTFwkSiFWJD0kQyRBN08hVyU1JSQbKEI=?= =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCJUgkTiQ0MEZGYhsoQg==?= Message-ID: <003801c1bb8b$f6e36330$9ee234d2@IYASHIKEI> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1BBD7.591B2B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit $B$3$s$K$A$O!"FMA3$N%a!<%k$G<:Ni$7$^$9!#(B $B$3$l$O=P2q$$7O%5%$%H$N4+M6$G$O$"$j$^$;$s!#(B ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- $B:G?7$N1GA|5;=Q(BMPEG4$B$r;HMQ$7$?(BCD-ROM$BHNGd$N$4>R2p$G$9!#(B http://www.iyashi-kei.com $B$X@'Hs0lEYF~$C$F8+$F2<$5$$!##27n#1F|$K%*!<%W%s$7$??7$7$$%5%$%H$G$9!#(B $BF|K\$G$O!@\JT=8$7$?!"H~$7$$1GA|$P$+$j$G$9!#(B $B1\Mw$OL5NA!"5.J}$N%Z!<%9$G$f$C$/$j$H42$$$G1\Mw2<$5$$!#(B $B$H$C$F$b??LLL\$J!V$=$C$A7O!W%5%$%H$N$40FFb$G$7$?!#(B $B!J=w@-$G$b5$7Z$KF~$l$^$9$h!K(B ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1BBD7.591B2B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C1BBD7.591B2B00-- From Nikolai Tue Feb 26 19:12:01 2002 From: Nikolai (Nikolai) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:12:01 +0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] =?koi8-r?B?8NLP3tTJ1MUsIM3P1sXULCDc1M8g98HbINvBztMuIPXEwczJ1NggzsXJy8/H?= =?koi8-r?B?xMEgzsUg0M/axM7PLg==?= Message-ID: <147594609.20020226231201@honkong.com> SGVsbG8sDQoNCg0KICAgICDtxc7RINrP19XUIO7Jy8/MwcouIOna18nOydTFINrBIMLF09DPy8/K 09TXzywgzs8gzsUg1M/Sz9DJ1MXT2CDVxMHM0dTYINzUzyDQydPYzc8gLSDPzs8gzc/WxdQg09nH 0sHU2CDXwdbO1cAg0s/M2CDXDQr3wdvFyiDWydrOySEg6c3Fzs7PINTByyDQ0s/J2s/bzM8g088g zc7PyiDQz9PMxSDQz8zV3sXOydEgLSDOxcvP1M/Sz8Ug19LFzdEgzsHawcQgLSDUwcvPx88g1sUg 0MnT2M3BLiD2xczBwCDJIPfBzSDOxQ0K1dDV09TJ1Ngg09fPyiDbwc7TISDv4vH64fTl7Pju7yDz 7+jy4e7p9OUg/PTvIPDp8/jt7yDu4SD25fP06+/tIOkg5+ni6+noIOTp8+vh6CENCg0KICAgICD3 0NLP3sXNLCDF08zJIPfZIM7FIMjP1MnUxSDTz9fF0tvFzs7PINrBy8/Ozs8gxM/Qz8zOydTFzNjO zyDawdLBwsHU2dfB1NggzsXTy8/M2MvPINTZ09HeIMnMySDExdPR1MvP1yDU2dPR3iBVUyQg1w0K 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In-Reply-To: <012101c1b492$486fdcc0$0200000a@holdenweb.com> Message-ID: [Steve Holden] > ... > It was certainly a surprise to me that only 250 or so (my own estimate) > people turned up to Python 10, but older hands seemed to feel that this > number is "typical". If it will help draw people, I'll volunteer to attend the next conference. I'm told the old homeless bum Foretec keeps hiring to play me is driving people away. > I suppose post-Sep11 there is some reason for it, but I would have > expected Python to be experiencing almost explosive growth in its user > base right now, and for this to be reflected in conference attendance. > If not, boy, have I just wasted a year. One old man around here blaming his wasted life on Python is quite enough, thank you. but-admiring-the-bad-taste-in-combining-"Sep11"-with-"explosive"-ly y'rs - tim