[Datetime-SIG] Are there any "correct" implementations of tzinfo?

[Guido van Rossum]

On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 5:46 PM, Alexander Belopolsky <
alexander.belopolsky at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
> wrote:
>
>> The repeated claims (by Alexander?) that astimezone() has the power of
>> pytz's localize() need to stop.
>
>
> Prove me wrong! :-)
>
>
>> Those pytz methods work for any (pytz) timezone -- astimezone() with a
>> default argument only works for the local time zone.
>
>
> That's what os.environ['TZ'] = zonename is for.  The  astimezone() method
> works for every timezone installed on your system.  Try it - you won't even
> need to call time.tzset()!
>

That's global state. Doesn't count.


> (And indeed what it does is surprising, except perhaps to pytz users.)
>
>
> That I agree with.  Which makes it even more surprising that I often find
> myself and pytz advocates on the opposite sides of the fence.
>
> Granted, setting TZ is a silly trick, but one simple way to bring a full
> TZ database to Python is to allow .astimezone() take a zonename string like
> 'Europe/Amsterdam' or 'America/Montevideo' as an argument and act as
> os.environ['TZ'] = zonename; t.astimezone() does now, but without messing
> with global state.
>

It might as well be a different method then though.


> I made this suggestion before, but I find it inferior to "as intended"
> tzinfos.
>
> The only real claim that I am making is that fictitious fixed offset
> timezones are useful and we already have some support for them in stdlib.
> The datetime.timezone instances that .astimezone() attaches as tzinfo are
> not that different from the instances that are attached by pytz's localize
> and normalize methods.
>

And it has the same defect.


> In fact, the only major differences between datetime.timezone instances
> and those used by pytz is that pytz's EST and EDT instances know that they
> come from America/New_York, while datetime.timezone instances don't.
> That's why once you specify America/New_York in localize, your
> tzinfo.normalize knows it implicitely, while in the extended .astimezone()
> solution you will have to specify it again.  This is not a problem when you
> only support one local timezone, but comes with a different set of
> tradeoffs when you have multiple timezones.
>
> One advantage of not carrying the memory of the parent zoneinfo in the
> fixed offset tzinfo instance is that pickling of datetime objects and their
> interchange between different systems becomes simpler.  A pickle of a
> datetime.timezone instance is trivial - same as that of a tuple of
> timedelta and a short string, but if your fixed offset tzinfo carries a
> reference to a potentially large zoneinfo structure, you get all kinds of
> interesting problems when you share them between systems that have
> different TZ databases.
>

The pickling should be careful to pickle by reference (on the timezone
name). That its meaning depends on the tz database is a feature.


> In any case, there are three approaches to designing a TZ database
> interface in the datetime module: the "as intended" approach, the pytz
> approach and the astimezone(zonename:str) approach.  The last two don't
> require a fold attribute to disambiguate end-of-dst times and the first one
> does.  With respect to arithmetic, the last two approaches are equivalent:
> both timeline and classic arithmetics are possible, but neither is
> painless.  The "as intended" approach comes with classic arithmetic that
> "just works" and encourages the best practice for timeline arithmetic: do
> it in UTC.  That's why I believe PEP 495 followed by the implementation of
> fold-aware "as intended" tzinfos (either within stdlib or by third parties)
> is the right approach.
>

Right. So please focus on this path and don't try to pretend to pytz users
that hacks around astimezone() make pytz redundant, because they don't.
There are other ways to fix the damage that pytz has done.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/datetime-sig/attachments/20150912/085d042f/attachment.html>