[Distutils] Python people want CPAN and how the latter came about

[Lennart Regebro]

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 02:56, David Lyon <david.lyon at preisshare.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:01:11 +0100, Lennart Regebro <regebro at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> OK, so in the Perl community there is apparently a lot of confusion on
>> what CPAN is.
>
> CPAN is plain and simple. There is no confusion, because there is
> just one 'brand-name' for the whole kit and caboodle. "Packaging"
> in the perl world just goes under the name CPAN.

That's not what Steffen Mueller said.

> However, a Perl user (speaking for myself) would typically
> know nothing about conversion of different package formats,
> because as far as I am aware the user isn't exposed to that level
> of complexity.
>
> There is no .tar.gz, .zip, .bz2, .exe, .msi or .egg concept of
> packages in perl. And having to pick one.. that may or may not
> be right for your configuration.

So your usecase, that a Windows user refuses to install anything else
than .msi files is solved in CPAN by the user not installing using
CPAN. Well, that's handy. And the Python situation is worse how,
exactly?

> Call a perl user a pampered pooch by all means. But all they
> know is that if they need a module.. then they use CPAN.

Right, and in Python neither easy_installer nor pip is included by
default. That's obviously a big plus for Perl. After that your
argumentation becomes self-contradictory and confused and reverts in
to the usual distutils rant, which still isn't constructive.

I'd also like an installer to be included in Python core, but there
are very good reasons for only including things that are stable and
almost unanimously accepted. And although pip looks like it's going to
get unanimously accepted it hasn't been yet. And obviously a very
vocal minority that constantly does nothing but waste their and others
time by complaining on distutils but not doing anything to fix it or
replace it isn't helping either.

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 07:37, David Lyon <david.lyon at preisshare.net> wrote:
> Those words are entirely yours. Not those who are able
> to explain how and why, with or without the rant.

I do hope you are not including yourself amongst those who are able to
explain how and why.

> One very important thing to remember is just who started
> this request to look into 'cpan' style packaging in the
> first place.
>
> If I'm not wrong, it came right from the top. So go
> hassle whoever that might be. But even then, that's just
> a response to calls by plain ordinary users in the field.

That is the most ridicolous excuse I've heard in a long time. People
are saying to Guido that "Python needs CPAN" and wonders what that
means. You come with you usual anti distutils rant, I ask *you* what
the connection is, and you tell med to go hassle Guido.

Pathetic. Honestly.

> With CPAN, they would never label discussion or feedback
> as 'rant'.

No, but they would label rants as rants, and what you do is ranting.
There is a bit of constructive feedback from you but there sure is no
discussion.

> I refer you to reread Steffens original post. It is very
> helpful.

I completely agree. Maybe you should read it and try to figure out WHY
it was helpful, when your answers aren't?

> No one person is able to do this. That being, redo distutils.

You are not the only one who says it needs to be rewritten from
scratch. If you are saying that the few people that exists that agree
with you about this *also* is not enough, then you are saying that the
community does not agree with you that it needs to be rewritten.

> And if python management aren't united on the need for it,
> doing a distutils replacement becomes an even weaker
> proposition.

So you are saying that you think distutils must be replaced, and that
the only persons who understand why it needs to be replaced are not
willing or able to do or even start the work.

> PEP-345 has been open since 2005. In CPAN it just would
> have been a beer fight and have been over in a weekend.

Maybe they have less people who complain, and use up their and other
peoples energies by ranting and complaining instead of coding.


In any case, I take your answer as a definite statement from your side
that you will not help neither fix nor replace distutils. And then I
honestly see no reason why I should listen to you anymore.

-- 
Lennart Regebro: http://regebro.wordpress.com/
Python 3 Porting: http://python-incompatibility.googlecode.com/
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