[Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev)

[David Cournapeau]

Jim Fulton wrote:
> I couldn't agree more.  As an application developer, I want to deliver
> complete self-enclosed applications.  I think that's why many
> application developers gravitate towards systems like buildout and
> virtualenv/pip. In fact, the tendency of system Python's to be
> customized by system packagers or system administrators often make the
> unsuitable for supporting applications.  When delivering applications
> to be installed by end users, I try to include everything needed,
> generally including Python. (I haven't been in this position for quite
> some time.)

That relates to the "python needs to be a platform" idea.Taking again
the numpy/scipy case, I would love to get something like a robust
easy_install, where scientific toolboxes can be installed, queries,
uninstalled from pypi. Having our own 'python' for installation, would
make this much easier - but we loose what makes numpy/scipy so
attractive in the first place, that is using a lot of great packages
outside the numpy/scipy community. Those two goals kind of contradict
with each other, I am not sure where the trade-off should be. Maybe
python makes this impossible. I would be surprised if this problem were
limited to numpy/scipy.

>
>
> Really, many (I'd guess most) web developers who gravitate to
> setuptools are drawn by the ability to express and manage
> dependencies.  They use tools like buildout or virtualenv that avoid
> the pitfalls you mention above. I suspect you have more in common with
> us than you think. :)

I know about virtualenv, pip, yolk (much less about buildout). I even
use them sometimes (I never use setuptools outside a virtualenv, for
example). But I don't see how this solve the deployment problem. How is
virtualenv useful for distribution of software to end users ? On the
robustness side of things, I cannot say I am satisfied with the solution
either. It is almost always workable, but not good enough for people who
do not care much about programming (which I think is the case of a lot
of researchers/scientists). We have tons of user problems related to
installation/deployment issues.

cheers,

David