[Distutils] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Python-Dev] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Tarek Ziadé <ziade.tarek at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Therefore I still propose shipping bootstrap package that instruct
>> user how to download and install an actual package  management tool
>> when users tries to use it. So far I know only one stable tool -
>> `easy_install` - a part of `setuptools` package.
>
> There are other tools to install something in a vanilla Python :
>
> - pip  (which also have an uninstall feature)
> - distutils
> - distribute

distutils is not a `package management` tool, because it doesn't know
anything even about installed packages, not saying anything about
dependencies.

`pip` and `distribute` are unknown for a vast majority of Python
users, so if you have a perspective replacement for `easy_install` -
it can be said in bootstrap package message. There is no problem with
packages that require `setuptools` either - they will require
`setuptools` as dependency anyway.

For now there are two questions:
1. Are they stable enough for the replacement of user command line
`easy_install` tool?
2. Which one is the recommended?

P.S. Should there be an accessible FAQ in addition to ML?

>>
>> The required behavior for very basic user friendliness:
>> 1. user installs Python 2.7
>> 2. user issues `python -m easy_install something`
>> 3. user gets message
>> 'easy_install' tool is not installed on this system. To make it
>> available, download and install `setuptools` package from
>> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/setuptools/
>
> Are you thinking about something generic ?
>
> Like, being able to call :
>
> $ python -m ANYTHING
>
> And get an error message saying that the ANYTHING script is not installed ?
> Then have a registry somewhere to get the name of the project that
> owns the ANYTHING script ?
>

No. To get something in 2.7 I would refrain from developing into this
direction for now.

> [..]
>> So, do we need a PEP for that? How else can I know if consensus is
>> reached? Anybody is willing to elaborate on implementation?
>
> I see two paths here:
> 1 - do you want to define a general mechanism for Python to install scripts ?
> 2 - are you just suggesting to have this mechanism only for Package Managers ?

3 - I want current "best practice" for installing Python modules with
dependencies from PyPI to be shipped with Python 2.7 by default

Answering your questions:
1. I want to have some user-friendly way for installing Python
scripts, but I am more concerned that I will miss `easy_install` in
Python 2.7
2. Bootstrap script is aimed at users. Package managers are assumed to
already have their package
at PyPI and provide install instructions that involve `easy_install`,
so nothing is required to be done on their part.

>
> In case of 2), what you would need to do is propose an extension to
> PEP 376, we are currently working
> on, then we can add it there once people have discussed it on
> distutils-SIG, or maybe create a new PEP if the topic is too big to
> fit in 376.

PEP 376 is completely irrelevant to user side boot package proposal.
This proposal is to recommend whatever package managing tool you think
user need and instruct how to get the tool. The boot package doesn't
know anything at all about how packages are managed.


>> P.S. Please be careful to reply to relevant lists
>
> Yes, so if it's 2) let's keep this thread in Distutils-SIG.
> Cross-posting like this makes it hard to follow.

My vision is that decision about having bootstrap package or not in
2.7 should be in python-dev and specific packaging, implementation and
pip/distutils/distribute questions in distutils-sig.

-- 
anatoly t.