[Edu-sig] Richard J Panek/Dorothea Salo

[Richard J Panek Jr]

On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:48:03 +0100, Max Haas  wrote:

<snip of earlier stuff>

>I would like to support first Dorotheas view (=3D 1) and then add
>another
>point (=3D 2). Unfortunately I haven't read all the mails during=
 the
>last
>weeks and I might be the case of the bad outsider who should=
 shut
>up. I
>shall see and learn about it. (e.g. I didn't understand Arthurs=
 mail
>and
>think that I have a big lack of knowledge).
>
>(1a): Hope to be able to do something by way of example. When=
 we
>give the
>sequence /rto/ (=3D three phonems: r, t, o) to competent German
>speakers
>(sorry! Don't know of a well suited English/American example)=
 and
>ask them
>if /rto/ is a German word they will say "no!". This is=
 interesting
>because
>they will agree to the fact that they don't know every German=
 word.
>When we
>spend some combinatorics to our candidate /rto/ then we might 
produce
>something like "rot", "Ort" or "Tor". These are really German=
 words.
>From
>this point of view linguists (following this strategy) do two
>things: they
>answer the question "Of what does a language consist?" in the=
 form
>that they
>enumerate the shortest elements of a language (possible for any
>language)
>and then they give the rules how these elements can be combined=
 to
>build
>sequences.
>
>(1b): Natural language is a sort of a linear chain of symbols.=
 Men
>produce
>those chains twice (apart from physiological processes): when=
 they
>speak
>(write) and when they produce music (when they write music=
 down). In
>the
>history of science music was used as paradigm for a continuous
>system and a
>discrete system. When you give for a certain idiom (of music,=
 e.g.
>500
>chants of any population) the answer which elements build this=
 idiom
>(which
>phrases, formulas) and which are the rules to combine those=
 elements
>you
>solve a problem. In my experience it's easier to ask those=
 questions
>with
>some programming. (You can do it in HyperCard, Python, Ada or
>Assembler ...)
>
>(1c) Richard: Naturally I didn't try to bring up an argument in
>favor of
>music. I have another question: could it be that we have
>imaginations about
>"hard" and "soft" and that we are educated in the belief that
>'music' is
>"soft" - no problem solving in and with music? I tried to sketch=
 the
>thing
>with linear symbol chains because on this level we have firstly=
 a
>complete
>theory about "The Mathematical Structures of Language", written=
 and
>published by Zellig S. Harris, New York 1979 (there are some=
 other
>books
>.....) . When we secondly try to think more about these=
 foundations
>we read
>in the "Handbook of Formal Languages" of G. Rozenberg/A.=
 Salomaa. I
>don't
>think that we deal here with "natural language", "programming"=
 or
>"music"
>but with the possibility to speak about all things in the=
 greatest
>concreteness and in the greatest abstractness. (Greetings from=
 Plato
>and
>Aristotle). (BTW: In Greek music theory music was the thing=
 which
>made men
>knowing something about 'time', 'movement', 'place', 'space'=
 and
>'measure'.
>Rather "hard" things, aren't they?)
>
>(2) Can I take this opportunity and add a thing? Once upon a=
 time
>somebody
>here quoted the statement about a mathematics which makes the
>invisible
>visible. I like the statement. As far as I try to do this and
>visualize
>music I have always the same problems with Python. I could do=
 all 
the
>programming (together with students who never have programmed
>before) with
>Python - great language - but the possibilities to visualize=
 these
>processes
>would need quite other graphic capabilities. This is _not_ a
>complaint! I
>haven't Guido's brain and to do my job I must then (on a Mac)=
 work
>with Lisp
>(or REALbasic), because I can't produce _my_ Python. Interesting=
 for
>me are
>the limitations - as if the combination of Python and math would=
 be
>an
>argument for poor visualization capabilities.
>
>Regards
>
>Max
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Edu-sig mailing list
>Edu-sig@python.org
>http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

I've already admitted I don't know anything about music theory=
 and 
probably should slink off to a dark corner, but what the hey, no=
 one 
wants to argue with me at work today...

There is problem solving in music, language, etc.  I made too=
 over- 
broad a statement in my first post.  It really comes down to a=
 matter 
of practicality- math has been taught with problem solving as a=
 key 
concept.  Language and music haven't, at least not in the US=
 school 
systems I'm aware of.  I can see a math teacher hitting Kirby's 
website and incorporating some of the ideas rather easily.  I=
 don't 
see it happening in a language or music class.  The /rto/ problem=
 is 
interesting, but most curricula seem to be moving away from=
 things 
like grammar and spelling, whole language is used to teach=
 reading, 
and don't correct mistakes or you'll damage self-esteem.  I think=
 the 
concreteness of writing programs would be met with open hostility=
 by 
many teaching those subjects.  Unfortunately math curricula are 
slowly falling prey to the same mentality.  

-- Richard J Panek Jr, rpanek@mitre.org on 01/08/2001