[Edu-sig] re: license

[Kirby Urner]

At 08:41 AM 1/21/2003 -0500, Arthur wrote:

>But as I say repeated on edu-sig, I have come to understand myself to be in
>fact a fish quite out of water in this world of free software and whatever
>it is the "community" in the Python community represents.

I think you over-stress this self image.  Some people disagree with
some of your points, as is natural in a free wheeling give and take
world.  Others don't find the axes you grind particularly interesting.
Others agree with some of your points.

>Expressing the wish, out loud, that someone else who is taking advantage of
>the community's productivity might act a bit more reasonably and less
>selfishly as a community member is seen by (at least some) of the community
>as an assault on that community.

I think this has now been expressed very clearly, and archived appropriately.
You've had some agreement from both myself and Jason.  Now I don't see
what more there is to be said on this topic.  Continuing to stress how
this makes you "a fish quite out of water" doesn't seem relevant or
important (or even true -- you're really not that special (but I'm sure
it adds spice to hype the soap opera angles of life -- kinda the daytime
TV approach (now if we can just get you 'n Guido on Jerry Springer
together (or even just you by yourself))).

>My continuing alienation from the community, frankly, is one of the things

Which community again?  The whole of the Python user community?

>that makes me resent having to take on the project of bringing the VPython
>project into compliance with what are, I think, very reasonable community
>expectations as to how a 3rd party module should install and behave.

You don't "have to".  You can tackle it if you like.  Given you don't
really seem to want to, I'd say feel more than free to forget the
whole business.  If people want to run PyGeo, they'll just have to
put up with VPython's crap.  They'll also have to install Python itself,
which many in the geometry community won't have, won't even have heard
of.  It's all a big hassle.  Wouldn't it be nice if you never needed
to hassle.

>Of course, the other solution is to overwrite his help file with my help
>file.  That would indeed be 4 keystrokes.  And than I could be the guy
>sitting on ten thousand lines of code, driving my pet toy.

VPython currently comes with its own IDLE.  If only *that* IDLE were to
point to VPython documentation under help, with a forwarding link to
the main Python docs, that'd be more acceptable.  That it overwrites
the help index for my generic IDLE is less cool, as if the only thing
I want to use Python for is VPython.  It does give a forwarding link
though -- one more mouse click between me and Python docs.

You'll notice that the VPython IDLE actually adds a menu item under
Help as well:  Advice.  Click it and you get a cute "Don't Panic"
message.  OK, so how hard would it be to add VPython Help as a menu
item under help?  This, to me, would make the most sense.  I wouldn't
mind if this is what it did even to the default (non-VPython IDLE).
But doing it in the VPython IDLE, and having this item point to a
*different* root page for help on VPython, would seem the more
responsible approach.  You've said as much.  I think you've gotten
agreement from people who track this stuff at all.

Indeed, it would make sense to me for IDLE itself to have a default
location where Help menu items could be added by 3rd party installers.
Other IDEs could take advantage of this too (i.e. it'd really Python
that's helping here, not just IDLE).  If I'm Joe Developer who wants
to stick help for my little package

>Unfortunately, thats not who I am.
>
>And please.
>
>What advisory do you have in mind.
>
>Art

I just went through uninstalling Python 2.1 and all the stuff related
to that (I just need 2.2.2 for now, plus maybe I'll add 2.3 -- which
is already on the laptop).  It was nice to find uninstallers in my
Add/Remove Software section in the Windows control panel.  PyGeo was
not listed (nor VPython), nor is my 2.2.2 version of PyGeo.  Only in
the last few weeks have you started to pay attention to stuff like
that (thanks in part to promptings from Guido).  And now that you
are, VPython is on your shit list, and you're on the war path.
Sheesh.  I see PIL (Python Image Lab) isn't properly under
site-packages either.  Maybe if I reinstalled the latest version,
it would be (like win32 is).  Maybe not.  I don't really care that
much.

If I install PyGeo using dsutils, will I get one of these nice
uninstallers?  If not, I think that'd be a better use of your time
than trying to mess with VPython (which will keep changing so your
improvements on the side will be irrelevant with the next release),
which I personally don't think you should mess with -- unless you
just want to contribute an install patch which rationalizes what
VPython does with the Help menu.  As it is, I thank you for bringing
that to my attention, and I plan to dig into the source code and
make it be how I want (can't be that hard).

I have VPython running, and Numeric in site-packages where it
belongs.  I have PyGeo working too, but am looking forward to
manually deleting it so I can reinstall it using your newest, more
sophisticated version.

I'm going to assume that the new IDLE will obviate the need for
VPython's separate one eventually, and that in time, VPython will
change how it installs.  Since PyGeo depends on VPython, as well
as Python (which also changes), PyGeo will probably keep changing
too.  Such is life in the world of complicated code.

Kirby