From lac at strakt.com Sat Nov 1 06:58:24 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Sat Nov 1 06:58:34 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] The trackball reality In-Reply-To: Message from Arthur of "Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:59:51 CDT." <000501c39a50$3d719160$1a02a8c0@BasementDell> References: <000501c39a50$3d719160$1a02a8c0@BasementDell> Message-ID: <200311011158.hA1BwOW8011848@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> One of the reasons that games are effective at teaching is that they provide 'teaching that is training' as opposed to 'teaching that is education'. And training is a very effective way to learn. Somewhere along the line, for class reasons as much as anything else, and in response to the undeniable truth that rote-learning is very boring, 'teaching' moved up-scale and decided that it should be in the business of 'educating' children, not training them. This was based on the untested belief that if you packed students with more theory, and with the reasons behind what was so was so, they would become better problem solvers, and become better citizens who were more accustomed to making informed decisions and a whole lot of other very good things. And stacked up against an educational system where children were trained to get the correct answers without every understanduing why, it was a useful corrective. The problem is that educating/training need not be an either/or proposition. Good teaching does both. A good many things are not understood 'better' by people who understand the theory than people who have done it a thousand times. The best authority on midieval French dances may be an 80 year old man in a wheelchair, but you hire somebody else to teach you how to dance them .... Indeed, for many subjects, like programming, it is hard to measure how the theory is improving the result, because the people who most 'get it' generally take their new enthuthiasm for the new cool theories you have taught them over to a computer, where they write code, and basically train themselves. When you are talking to children, you also often find that they are much more motivated by 'wanting to do something' rather than 'wanting to understand something'. This has two implications. First of all, if you actually want to train something into your students, by making them practice it over and over, a game may be a better way to structure a drill. This is especially true if you have enough computers around that the students can simultaneously drill themselves. You can pack a lot of drill into a short amount of time. I would suggest, however, if you do this to have the children work in pairs, and rotate the pairs. Otherwise, school can become pretty lonely, and children can get the idea that what is most important is how they score, which has bad effects in developing their skills in teamwork, and, at worst can mean that a substantual part of your class, who are as expected, 'getting the wrong answers' when they are training, get the idea that they are failures, because what they are doing so resembles a test where they are expected to know the answers. Second of all, if you want to teach children to program, teaching them how to write games is often very successful. But remember that their focus may still be on the doing, and not on the understanding. One of the best lessons I ever got was from a 12 or 13 year old boy. He had decided to write classes of mixins and make his characters, monsters, and objects inherit from whichever set he needed to get the functionality he wanted. So He mades these incredible monsters that inherited from 16 or so classes, and ran into trouble because a monster 'opening his mouth' is different from 'opening a door to another room' is different from 'opening a treasure box' is different from 'opening your backpack'. Or checking to see if the window is open .... After a long frustrating time when I tried to explain how name resolution worked, and how multiple inheritance works, and how parsing works, I went on, and on, and on, and he still didn't understand he finally shouted at me ... 'LOOK. I don't _want_ to understand what I am doing! I JUST WANT TO BE ABLE TO DO IT!' Which I think was absolutely marvellous. And he was, indeed, one of the people who really craved the hands-on experience. He only wanted theory if he could see how it would help him write better code. The rest of the time he was impatient to get back to writing code, so teaching him was a matter of drawing the implications between what I was saying, and 'bigger, badder, monsters' and 'even nastier traps'. So I don't think that the games advocates have it all wrong. On the other hand, it is hard for me to see how a trackball figures -- except for one really cool AMIGA game I saw where you had to roll a marbel around an area and make it reach certain points. I am sure that you could get a hands on experience of certain Physics problems in mechanics that way. I just got back from Paris where I went to the Science Museum -- Cit? of Industry, I think it was called. It is a participatory museum, and the kids seemed to like it just fine. I was quite impressed with the 3-6 yhear old section where they got hard hats, and flourescent vests, and got to work kid-sized mine equipment. It looked like a lot of fun. But when we got to the sections for adults, I was unhappy to see that there was almost no historical context for what was being shown. It is nice to show the names of the discoverers of varous laws, but when they did this, and what they were looking for at the time, and some historical background would have been appreciated. In general I would appreciate an educaitonal approach that was believed that the job of teaching was to 'teach kids to do things' and less one that believed they are open pots that you have to stuff with facts. Games can be used both ways, of course. Laura From lac at strakt.com Sat Nov 1 08:04:22 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Sat Nov 1 08:04:28 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: The trackball reality In-Reply-To: Message from Arthur of "Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:10:08 CDT." <000501c39a7b$964b0660$1c02a8c0@BasementDell> References: <000501c39a7b$964b0660$1c02a8c0@BasementDell> Message-ID: <200311011304.hA1D4Mem012013@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Arthur, I suggest that you will enjoy reading 'The Humane Interface' by Jef Raskin. Laura From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Nov 1 10:38:54 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Nov 1 10:38:53 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: The trackball reality In-Reply-To: <200311011304.hA1D4Mem012013@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: I'm teaching a class billed as a combination of Python and geometry. It's for middle-school aged home schoolers, though one student is I think early high school age, plus his mom is learning too. This desire to program a kind of fantasy world interactive game is strong with several students. It's sort of the "hello world" paradigm they have of what programming is good for. Programming is about writing interactive games, duh. Rather than fight this paradigm too hard, I've decided to use it, as geometry is still in the picture: characters have a position in space (either on a flat surface or in volume). So we need to change their coordinates, figure out when they hit a wall and so on. There's some geometry involved, and more could be added. So we started with the basic data structures (list, dictionary, string), moved up to functions (def), then string substitution in print statements (madlibs), then classes. At this point, I started showing a game paradigm, with a Game, Player and Powerobj (power objects) classes. Instead of enough fluency on their part to write such a game themselves, I expose them to already-written examples. I think this is a very valid approach, by analogy with language learning. We need to be exposed to the 'real thing' in a more mature form, learn how to read, with the grammatical stuff already taken care of. Exposure to pre-written code gives us an appreciation for the overall structure (we can take apart the source, analyze it), plus (and this is the best part) we can run and test the code (and modify it to suit as time goes on). But a lot of this discussion is somewhat orthogonal to Arthur's original post, as doing a primitive game framework and using it as a basis for further learning, does not require digressing into heavy use of any kind of trackball device, nor even into using visually-sophisticated graphics. My game.showboard() method just spits out an ascii representation of a rectangle, with characters as capital letters. Of course we could get Pygame working, or VPython, and start moving towards fancier representations, and in a geometry class you'd think we might. However, at this juncture, where we're still just learning basic Python, I don't want to introduce the overhead of additional external frameworks and add-ons. It's just to soon for that. No trackball, no gee whiz graphics, yes lots of text-based stuff, yes game programming paradigm. My source code examples, what we're using in class, plus some other materials, are at my web page for the course: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/pygeom.html Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Nov 1 10:52:37 2003 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Nov 1 10:52:49 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: The trackball reality Message-ID: <000701c3a090$2c766fc0$0c02a8c0@Arts> Laura writes - >One of the reasons that games are effective at teaching is that they >provide 'teaching that is training' as opposed to 'teaching that is >education'. And training is a very effective way to learn. I think the converstaion gets off track. Probably my fault. the issue is computer interface, not games per se. The most effective teacher I experienced - elementary school - integrated chess into our currcilum quite effectively. And took a lot of heat for it. The fact is that chess, for example, was and is not considered a mainstream educational tool. It is available at minimal costs. Why are we then considering, creating and investing in new educational games, when the old and classic one's sit on shelves. What there is to be learned from computer games, as interface - I assure you, as a parent - kids get more than enough exposure to. My sister, who has an exceptional child, was complaining just yesterrday that her son spends most of his free time online playing Magic Card games. She was really asking me what I might do to stimulate him to get more involved in some of the geometry/math material being presented to him at school. She happened to mention something about Tower of Hanoi along the way, so I sent her the VPython Tower of Hanoi demo, which I thought Adam might find interesting; it is striking, visually, and its guts are fifty or so lines of code. I wouldn't expect him to understand the code, but hope to interest him in the fact that so little code was necessary to get so much done. A look behind the scenes I thought might interest him. He hasn't found time to even take a look at it yet. Creating games - I'm all for it. It puts one behind the secenes. Taking advantage of the graphical abilities of the current generation of PCs to add dimension, interest, fun - I'm all for it. What I want though, as interface, is to encourage, allow students to get behind the scenes and to think and interface in sentences, paragraphs, and compositions at a time. Rather than a word at a time - point, click, point,click,point,click. And if I thought otherwise, that effective GUI was the key to educational software, I would be otherwhere than here. Since I don't see what in particular Python contributes to the particular realm of technology. Not to say that I think this as a response fully covers the issues you raise. Its just that I have a flight this afternoon. Art Much more to say, speculate on From dajoy at openworldlearning.org Sat Nov 1 13:20:25 2003 From: dajoy at openworldlearning.org (Daniel Ajoy) Date: Sat Nov 1 13:18:18 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: The trackball reality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3FA3B319.24063.13EEFC0@localhost> To contrast this idea I suggest reading this short article ('hope it's still there): February 21, 1998 The Wonderful Discovery of Nothing http://www.connectedfamily.com/frame4/cf0413seymour/recent_essays/cf0413_discovery.html ... > Almost all parents think that it is a good thing for their > kids to do something called "learning math" and are > therefore in the market for software that will "teach kids > math." So far, so good. But what is not so good is that > their ideas about what math is, and why the kids should > learn it, are so flimsy that they are in a similar position > to people who want to buy food for their kids but do not > know the difference between nutritious food and junk food. > > In my view 99% of what is sold is junk math. ... Daniel PS. The Logo community has published a lot about kids programming games. > From: Laura Creighton > > One of the reasons that games are effective at teaching is that they > provide 'teaching that is training' as opposed to 'teaching that is > education'. And training is a very effective way to learn. > From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Nov 3 04:52:50 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Nov 3 04:52:45 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] GTK+ widgets, other odds and ends In-Reply-To: <3FA3B319.24063.13EEFC0@localhost> Message-ID: I thought I'd give GTK+ a try using pygtk 2.0, and so far I'm feeling pleasantly rewarded. GTK is a Gnome thing, but has been ported to Windows as well and has a native-enough look and feel. I think mono (.NET for Linux) is going to be GTK based (I've done some C# in mono, but nothing with widgets). Even GIMP, for which GTK was originally evolved, is now running in Windows (I haven't tested it myself). Anyway, I'm going through the tutorial and lo and behold I can run the examples from within IDLE (the new one, with 2.3) without any of the hang problems that typically accompany widget fun and games. Ideas for doing this came from Simon Willison's pointer to matplotlib [1], which uses GTK+ (I followed the instructions there for getting the libraries installed, including that change to the Windows PATH): http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/installing.html The tutorial I'm following (which is quite recent) is here: http://www.moeraki.com/pygtktutorial/pygtk2tutorial/index.html Another success today was finally doing fractals direct to PNG using PIL -- cutting out POV-Ray as the middleman. I've updated my fractals page to register this step: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/fractals.html (I'm sure I'm not the first to do this -- just registering a small personal satisfaction). And another thing: now that I have better cgi support at my ISP (switched to DigitalSpace after Internet Arena went under, taking my website with it), I was able to get py2html working so that .py files get colorized and anchor-tagged on the fly. No more saving separating source and html versions (fractals.py has an example of this). Kirby [1] still trying to get this added to edu-sig page, but am having troubles with public keys, cvs etc. We made a step today towards getting that resolved, but still not there yet. From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Nov 3 14:07:30 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Nov 3 14:07:25 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] GTK+ widgets, other odds and ends (followup) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Of Kirby Urner > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 1:53 AM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] GTK+ widgets, other odds and ends > > > I thought I'd give GTK+ a try using pygtk 2.0, and so far I'm feeling > pleasantly rewarded. At least on WinXP, seems there's a bug in GTK-Runtime-Environment-2.2.4.1.exe which keeps radio buttons from bubbling in properly. I went back to next earlier version (2.2.4) and the problem went away. I posted a bug report to the GTK+ for Windows folks on Sourceforge (I've also recently submitted two Python IDLE-related bugs). > [1] still trying to get this added to edu-sig page, but am having troubles > with public keys, cvs etc. We made a step today towards getting that > resolved, but still not there yet. > Resolved, and matlabplot link has been added to edu-sig page. Kirby From arkamir at softhome.net Mon Nov 3 19:08:58 2003 From: arkamir at softhome.net (Conrad Koziol) Date: Tue Nov 4 00:16:02 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] linux essay Message-ID: <1067904538.5796.7.camel@quercus> Hey here is the rough draft for my essay. I was hoping you could read it over and give me advice. The main compliant I got was that people don't know about anything. Like they don't know what O.S. stands for or what even is Linux. That was the main reason for not making an essay for python. I think I will overcome that barrier with a glossary. The main advice I need is what to include and what not to include and more stuff, as well as anything else. Try to have fun andthink like noobs. :) Btw this is for a freshman class in a high school which calls itself Tech High. But uses everything windows :( and disables command prompt and gets kids in trouble for making bat files or linking folders between accounts. I thought after the essay I might push for at least 1 Linuxbox. Linux should be used as the primary software by everyone. Formaly known as GNU/Linux it was started by Linus Torvalds in 1991. It began when his professor created an O.S. Called Minnix to teach his students the unner workings of an O.S. Dissapointed by the lack of a free O.S. and the weakness of Minix, Torvalds created Linux with a losse net of about hackers. Today it is used by approxatimely 7.5-11 million people. Being released under the GPL((?)(GNU public licsence) ahh can someone help me here), Linux has the advanteges of being an Open Source product. This means that anyone can look at the code and so anything with it. This is different from what Microsoft labels as 'open source' which is properly called free since you dont have acces to the code, an example would be Internet Explorer. Windows itself is proprietary software, or software you must pay for. There are many open-source licsences such as BSD, and Lesser GPL, each with different constraints or freedoms of what you can do to the software. Such as the terms of the GPL which states that you must report the changes of the code you made back to the author and if you choose to distribute it or any program using it you must provide the source code for free. These licsences ensure the author is given due credit and that the authors wishes are carried out. This also ensures that no one tries to sell the product without providing the source code for free. This makes it possible for authors who wish to distribute the program for free ensure it stays free. Most programs for Linux are licsenced this way.(people commented they dont understand why it matters that linux is released under a free licsence, any help??) Linux can be run on any computer from a lowly 300 MGH pentuim 1 to a 11 teraflop 1000 + node supercomputer. On any system Linux easily outmatches Windows in everything and can go toe to toe with a higher end system Windows machine. This is due to the contributions of hundreds of thousands people's code, which is constantly being reviewed and improved. Linux can also be customized for you exact system by building from source. It's philosophy of one computer, multiple users, makes it ideal for networking. It's windowing system is run at the user level so you can have hundreds of users remotely log in to a computer and access all the drives on it without overly taxing it since all the windowing and GUI(graphical user interface) is handled on the computer you are on. This also allows for text-only mode if you only need to use that. Linux is more powerful and flexible than Windows because of it's build. In linux you have complete control of everything due to it's licsencing. You can control what applications start when you log in or when the computer starts, you can make your own firewall or modify the current one, decide what the screen shows when you turn on the computer, or make it sing a song when you log in. It's up to you. Though there is a GUI for a lot of things, it is restricted by it's lack of useability and total control, so the optimal way to do things is the command prompt(called shell, DOS in windows). There is a learning curve for all of this, but it is not overwhelming. To help you there are several websites and books, as well as tons of friendly users on IRC or mailing lists. In using Open-Source software, you have an abundance of choices to choose from. There are several distros(versions, distrubutions) of Linux. Each distro uses the exactly same kernal(core or backbone of the linux O.S.), what seperates them is the services and goals behind them. For example, Redhat Linux specializes in stability, Mandrake promotes ease of use, and Gentoo offers supreme customizibility and performance. Usually there are several products for Linux which do the same thing but add there own bells and whistles, such as web browsers. Currently there are 4-5 different browsers offered for Linux (all with Windows ports), each of them is compliant with the standards, the thing that seperates them is the principles they hold when the develop them such as speed or ease of use. Each product is also compatible with each other since they use open formats to save everything. It is up to you too decide which one is best for you, though any will do unless your looking for something specialized. You can find anything you need for linux on the web through sites like SourceForge, Freshmeat, and through individual developers. SourceForge and Freshmeat are sites that provide a place for developers to meet and organize projects, and then gives them hostingand a place to offer there programs. Having lots of options develops diversity and forces programmers to think of more ways to seperate there program from the rest of the crowd. This results in better code and programs. Installing programs is a breeze by using you distro's version of rpms. If you want complete customibilty right from the start you can use Source Code which can is compatible with all distros of linux. Linux is the perfect operating system that prometes user control. Though there is a learning cureve it easily makes itself up it the money you save, and the thought that you can do anything with your computer. Linux brings bac k the fun in computing. From marilyn at deliberate.com Tue Nov 4 03:11:18 2003 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Tue Nov 4 03:11:23 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] linux essay In-Reply-To: <1067904538.5796.7.camel@quercus> Message-ID: Hi Conrad, Good for you for teaching your students about Linux. You bring up a good set of points. Actually, it's more accurately called "The GNU System". Linus Torvalds wrote the kernel, or parts of the kernel. GNU is really responsible for its existence. Richard Stallman should be thanked regularly. A big feature in my eyes is that the GNU system is immune to mail viruses -- so far. It's more robust because it is open source and all the code gets checked and re-checked and discussed and re-discussed. There are strict coding standards for code to be included in the GNU body of code. What standards are there in MS? Who knows. They say there are two approaches to software quality: 1) Schedule-driven quality, or 2) Quality-driven schedule. You have to choose. Which is MS? Which is the GNU system? Personally, I love the GNU system development environment: emacs, gdb, gcc, and python development under emacs. It takes longer to learn to use the GNU development environment but once you learn it, you can be more productive than people working in a mouse-based environment. A bad point, I once read that people using the GNU development environment get more repetitive stress syndrome, maybe because the development work goes so fast and gets so intense. I'm a victim of that myself -- but doing very well these years. It's good to run your spell-checker over an essay ... saves embarrassment and sets a good example for your students. And it's an odd thing about English that "it's" means "it is", and the possessive "its" doesn't have an apostrophe: its licensing, its philosophy, etc. A spell-checker can't help there. I hope some one tells me if I have that backward. Can you talk about the socio-political model that each OS represents? Distributed power rather than huge hierarchical power all centered in Bill Gates? Who wants to be a pawn in the MS business model?! Who wants their children to inherit such a world? Good luck empowering your students with the GNU system. Thanks for the read. Marilyn Davis From villate at gnu.org Tue Nov 4 07:01:49 2003 From: villate at gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Tue Nov 4 07:02:05 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] linux essay In-Reply-To: <1067904538.5796.7.camel@quercus> References: <1067904538.5796.7.camel@quercus> Message-ID: <20031104120149.GG504@fe.up.pt> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 04:08:58PM -0800, Conrad Koziol wrote: > Hey here is the rough draft for my essay. I was hoping you could read it > over and give me advice. Congratulations on your efforts to change things in your School. I'll give you some advice. > Linux should be used as the primary software by everyone. Formaly known > as GNU/Linux it was started by Linus Torvalds in 1991. The history of GNU/Linux dates back to 1983 when Richard Stallman wrote the "GNU Manifesto" and started a worldwide effort to create a complete free operating system. One important piece in the system, called "the kernel", was contributed by a finish student in 1991. The name Linux comes from the name of that student: Linus Torvalds. > It began when his Linus' contribution started when his > professor created an O.S. Called Minnix to teach his students the unner > workings of an O.S. Dissapointed by the lack of a free O.S. and the > weakness of Minix, Torvalds created Linux with a losse net of about > hackers. Today it is used by approxatimely 7.5-11 million people. > Being released under the GPL((?)(GNU public licsence) ahh can someone > help me here), Linux has the advanteges of being an Open Source advantages > product. > This means that anyone can look at the code and so anything with it. > This is different from what Microsoft labels as 'open source' which is > properly called free since you dont have acces to the code, an example > would be Internet Explorer. Windows itself is proprietary software, or > software you must pay for. There are many open-source licsences such as > BSD, and Lesser GPL, each with different constraints or freedoms of what > you can do to the software. Such as the terms of the GPL which states > that you must report the changes of the code you made back to the author > and if you choose to distribute it or any program using it you must > provide the source code for free. These licsences ensure the author is > given due credit and that the authors wishes are carried out. This also > ensures that no one tries to sell the product without providing the > source code for free. This makes it possible for authors who wish to > distribute the program for free ensure it stays free. Most programs for > Linux are licsenced this way.(people commented they dont understand why > it matters that linux is released under a free licsence, any help??) The GNU/Linux system is released under several various licenses which are all Free Software licenses; free here does not have to do with price (even though you might be able to get the software for free) but rather with your freedom to examine the code of the programs you depend on, change it when you need to, and distribute your changes to others so they can benefit from it. Even if you do not know how to program, you can hire someone to do it for you or even learn by yourself. To guarantee that freedom, it is necessary to have access to the source code; that's why Free Software is sometimes called Open Source software. However, access to the source code is not enough. For instance, some software companies claim their products are also "open source" because they let you look at the source code; but they do not allow you to make changes as you wish, since they claim "intellectual property" on it and anything similar that you may come up with after looking are their code. The principle behind Free/Open Source Software is that the abstract concepts behind software algorithms should not belong to anyone in particular. Everyone should have free access to knowledge. Free software does not exclude business; you can base a commercial activity around it in the same way that there are private schools without any need to claim property of the knowledge they pass to their students. There are various different free software licenses. Some of them, dubbed as copyleft, require you to distribute the source code to anyone who receives your programs and who asks for. You can charge a reasonable amount to repay you for the expense of distributing the source code, but you cannot forbid those who receive the code to pass it to others. Again, very much as in the educational system; I may refuse to teach you algebra unless you pay me, but once you pay me I cannot forbid you to teach others what you learned from me; for free if you want to. > Linux can be run on any computer from a lowly 300 MGH pentuim 1 to a 11 > teraflop 1000 + node supercomputer. On any system Linux easily > outmatches Windows in everything and can go toe to toe with a higher end > system Windows machine. This is due to the contributions of hundreds of > thousands people's code, which is constantly being reviewed and > improved. Linux can also be customized for you exact system by building > from source. It's philosophy of one computer, multiple users, makes it > ideal for networking. It's windowing system is run at the user level so > you can have hundreds of users remotely log in to a computer and access > all the drives on it without overly taxing it since all the windowing > and GUI(graphical user interface) is handled on the computer you are on. > This also allows for text-only mode if you only need to use that. > > Linux is more powerful and flexible than Windows because of it's build. > In linux you have complete control of everything due to > it's licsencing. its license. > You can control what applications start when you log in or when the > computer starts, you can make your own firewall or modify the current > one, decide what the screen shows when you turn on the computer, or make > it sing a song when you log in. It's up to you. Though there is a GUI > for a lot of things, it is restricted by it's lack of useability and > total control, so the optimal way to do things is the command > prompt(called shell, DOS in windows). There is a learning curve for all > of this, but it is not overwhelming. To help you there are several > websites and books, as well as tons of friendly users on IRC or mailing > lists. > > In using Open-Source software, you have an abundance of choices to > choose from. There are several distros(versions, distrubutions) of > Linux. Each distro uses the exactly same kernal(core or backbone of the kernel > linux O.S.), what seperates them is the services and goals behind them. separates > For example, Redhat Linux specializes in stability, Mandrake promotes > ease of use, and Gentoo offers supreme customizibility and performance. There are some "live" distributions that allow you to run a complete GNU/Linux system, out of a CD and without installation; the most popular one is Knoppix. If you decide to, you can transfer the CD to the hard disk with a simple command. > Usually there are several products for Linux which do the same thing but > add there own bells and whistles, such as web browsers. Currently there their > are 4-5 different browsers offered for Linux (all with Windows ports), > each of them is compliant with the standards, the thing that seperates separates > them is the principles they hold when the develop them such as speed or > ease of use. Each product is also compatible with each other since they > use open formats to save everything. It is up to you too decide which > one is best for you, though any will do unless your looking for > something specialized. You can find anything you need for linux on the > web through sites like SourceForge, Freshmeat, and through individual > developers. SourceForge and Freshmeat are sites that provide a place for > developers to meet and organize projects, and then gives them hostingand > a place to offer there programs. Having lots of options develops > diversity and forces programmers to think of more ways to seperate there > program from the rest of the crowd. This results in better code and > programs. Installing programs is a breeze by using you distro's version > of rpms. If you want complete customibilty right from the start you can > use Source Code which can is compatible with all distros of linux. be > Linux is the perfect operating system that prometes user control. Though promotes > there is a learning cureve it easily makes itself up it the money you > save, and the thought that you can do anything with your computer. Linux > brings bac k the fun in computing. Another thing: I think you should mention that even for those who still refuse to substitute Windows for a GNU/Linux system, most free programs can also run on top of Windows. For instance, they can use free browsers such as Mozilla and Phoenix instead of Explorer, free Office suits such as OpenOffice, instead of MSOffice, Gimp instead of Photoshop, etc. (see http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/). Replacing proprietary programs by free ones, in a Windows system, can be a first step to make a transition to free software. Once people get used to those free programs, they will not notice much difference when Windows is replaced by GNU/Linux. Regards, Jaime From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Nov 4 14:05:41 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Nov 4 14:05:33 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] linux essay In-Reply-To: <20031104120149.GG504@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: > Another thing: I think you should mention that even for those who still > refuse to substitute Windows for a GNU/Linux system, most free > programs can also run on top of Windows. For instance, they can use I don't know if I'd say "most" here -- but "some" for sure, Python being a premier example. Indeed, Python fills a niche in Windows, as VB is a crummy language, and the DOS-based batch language is not powerful at all. With Mark Hammond's Win32 extensions in particular, Windows users now have a true scripting language with its own shell mode -- something *nixers have taken for granted forever. So here's a case where a closed source operating system has been substantially improved with an open source technology. > free browsers such as Mozilla and Phoenix instead of Explorer, free > Office suits such as OpenOffice, instead of MSOffice, Gimp instead of > Photoshop, etc. It's often the case that closed source proprietary software has more features and the people who buy it make plenty of money with it -- enough to easily justify the cost of ownership. GIMP is not a PhotoShop equivalent, as the GIMP developers will be the first to admit (which doesn't mean it's not great software -- it is). And so it works both ways: lots of proprietary, closed source software is run on top of Linux in this world, not just on top of Windows. We shouldn't spread the myth that, once you've moved to an open source operating system, that everything you do after that is open source. Not every C++ program compiled with gcc has to be GPLed (that's not a requirement for using gcc). Nor does executable Python have to have any source code accompanying it (plus a lot of Python stuff isn't meant for distribution -- as Eric Raymond points out, tons of real world working software is custom in-house stuff, not any kind of commercial "product"). I've spent many years as a programmer, writing thousands of lines of code, and yet nothing that I've coded has ever been sold to anyone else in a shrink-wrapped box. This is very typical. > (see http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/). Replacing proprietary programs by free > ones, in a Windows system, can be a first step to make a transition to > free software. Once people get used to those free programs, they will > not notice much difference when Windows is replaced by GNU/Linux. > > Regards, > Jaime I'm very much in favor of open source software and am always glad when it proves itself as capable or more so, than the closed source competition. But I don't expect all software to ever be open, not even all operating systems (many of which run on devices other than desktops or laptops). Again, the analogy with schooling works: whereas algebra is in the public domain and anyone is free to teach it or learn it, sometimes a new algorithm is kept under wraps for proprietary advantage, e.g. the patent on RSA only expired recently. The teacher may have some tricks for making algebra seem easier that students won't be able to replicate either -- because the focus of the class is on algebra, not the teacher's techniques. In other words, a teacher's style remains "proprietary" in the sense that teaching skills don't always easily transmit. IBM, a heavy investor in Linux, still expects to be a major player in the proprietary market. The commercial success of Linux has everything to do with big companies realizing that open source does not force them to surrender their right to keep secrets (only some loser companies like SCO couldn't see how to turn a profit without selfishly and erroneously claiming exclusive private ownership over ideas that belonged to the Unix community). Finally, in practice what happens to a lot of GPL code is it gets forked internally to a company and moved into proprietary service. It's not shared outside the company, so this is not strictly speaking against the license (when you play with GPLed code in on your own computer, you're not compelled to share these changes -- which may have broken it or made it worse). And I agree with Jon Udell who writes about this phenomenon in 'Open Source Citizenship' in Infoworld (10.27.03), that this is often a shortsighted approach, that giving back to the community is about enlightened self interest. Kirby From arkamir at softhome.net Tue Nov 4 19:38:35 2003 From: arkamir at softhome.net (Conrad Koziol) Date: Tue Nov 4 19:38:50 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Several Small changes Message-ID: <1067992715.5396.13.camel@quercus> Hey thanks a lot for all the tips. I tried to include most of the changes, though I really hope I dont overwhelm the teacher or the students :). She's already had bad experiences with open-source, I caught her complaining about Abiword (Windows port), so she might be biased. :(. I have to make a presentation in front of the class on Friday or Monday, and have to make a powerpoint presentation. I think I gain the students attention by using all the great logos such as GNU one or Tux, espeially the Quake tux. I was wondering if it would be wise to include some of the parodies of Windows(all apropriete.). Whoever mentioned Knoppix thanks for reminding me I was going to bring a version to school, but I think there so rooted in there Microsoft ways they might go as far a suspend me or give me good talking too. They problay think its a security issue and that I will try to destroy there network. They're real anal about doing anything out of the ordinary. I will though ask my teacher if I can bring a version of Knoppix to include in my presentation. The GNU/Linux system should be used as the primary software by everyone. GNU was started in 1983 Richard Stallman when he started a project to develop free applications and an O.S. In 1991 a Finnish student created a basis for an O.S. called a ?kernel? due to the lack of a free one. The name Linux is derived from his name, Linus Torvalds. Soon hundreds and then thousands of people added and contributed to the kernel. Today it is used by approxatimely 18 million people. Being released under the GPL and several other free licsences, Linux has the advanteges of being an Open Source product. This means that anyone can look at the source code and so anything with it. This is different from what Microsoft labels as 'open source' which is properly called free since you dont have acces to the code, an example would be Internet Explorer. Windows itself is proprietary software, or software you must pay for. There are many open-source licsences such as BSD, and Lesser GPL, each with different constraints or freedoms of what you can do to the software. Such as the terms of the GPL which states that you must report the changes of the code you made back to the author and if you choose to distribute it or any program using it you must provide the source code for free. These licsences ensure the author is given due credit and that the authors wishes are carried out. This also ensures that no one tries to sell the product without providing the source code for free. This makes it possible for authors who wish to distribute the program for free ensure it stays free. Most programs for Linux are licsenced this way. This is important because you have the freedom to do whatever you want with the code, and that everyone who wants can have acces to the knowledge behind the programs. It also means that even when software and hardware changes, you can still ensure that you will not be locked into some proprietary format of your data. Linux can be run on any computer from a lowly 300 MGH pentuim 1 to a 11 teraflop 1000 + node supercomputer. On any system Linux easily outmatches Windows in everything and can go toe to toe with a higher end system Windows machine. This is due to the contributions of hundreds of thousands people's code, which is constantly being reviewed and improved. Linux can also be customized for you exact system by building from source. It's philosophy of one computer, multiple users, makes it ideal for networking. It's windowing system is run at the user level so you can have hundreds of users remotely log in to a computer and access all the drives on it without overly taxing it since all the windowing and GUI(graphical user interface) is handled on the computer you are on. This also allows for text-only mode if you only need to use that. Linux is more powerful and flexible than Windows because of it's build. In linux you have complete control of everything due to it's licsencing. You can control what applications start when you log in or when the computer starts, you can make your own firewall or modify the current one, decide what the screen shows when you turn on the computer, or make it sing a song when you log in. It's up to you. Though there is a GUI for a lot of things, it is restricted by it's lack of useability and total control, so the optimal way to do things is the command prompt(called shell, DOS in windows). There is a learning curve for all of this, but it is not overwhelming. To help you there are several websites and books, as well as tons of friendly users on IRC or mailing lists. In using Open-Source software, you have an abundance of choices to choose from. There are several distros(versions, distrubutions) of Linux. Each distro uses the exactly same kernal(core or backbone of the linux O.S.), what seperates them is the services and goals behind them. For example, Redhat Linux specializes in stability, Mandrake promotes ease of use, and Gentoo offers supreme customizibility and performance. Usually there are several products for Linux which do the same thing but add there own bells and whistles, such as web browsers. Currently there are 4-5 different browsers offered for Linux , each of them is compliant with the standards, the thing that seperates them is the principles they hold when the develop them such as speed or ease of use. Each product is also compatible with each other since they use open formats to save everything. It is up to you too decide which one is best for you, though any will do unless your looking for something specialized. You can find anything you need for linux on the web through sites like SourceForge, Freshmeat, and through individual developers. SourceForge and Freshmeat are sites that provide a place for developers to meet and organize projects, and then gives them hostingand a place to offer there programs. Having lots of options develops diversity and forces programmers to think of more ways to seperate there program from the rest of the crowd. This results in better code and programs. It is important to note that even if you do not wish to switch to GNU/Linux you can still install most Open-Source programs as most of them have Windows(and Mac) ports which allow you to install them on Windows(and Mac). Installing programs is a breeze by using you distro's version of rpms. If you want complete customibilty right from the start you can use Source Code which can is compatible with all distros of linux. Linux is the perfect operating system that prometes user control. Though there is a learning cureve it easily makes itself up it the money you save, and the thought that you can do anything with your computer. It has already been used in several high schools , and the educational benifet offered surpasses anything Windows can offer especially students studying computer science. Linux brings bac k the fun in computing. From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Wed Nov 5 00:37:34 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Wed Nov 5 00:40:26 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Several Small changes References: <1067992715.5396.13.camel@quercus> Message-ID: <000b01c3a35e$eb0c21c0$6501a8c0@vaio> Hi Conrad Good luck with your presentation. I encourage you to run it through a spell checker a few times carefully, as you have several spelling mistakes. - Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: "Conrad Koziol" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:38 PM Subject: [Edu-sig] Several Small changes Hey thanks a lot for all the tips. I tried to include most of the From villate at gnu.org Wed Nov 5 07:40:33 2003 From: villate at gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Wed Nov 5 07:40:49 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] linux essay In-Reply-To: References: <20031104120149.GG504@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20031105124033.GH545@fe.up.pt> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 11:05:41AM -0800, Kirby Urner wrote: > > Another thing: I think you should mention that even for those who still > > refuse to substitute Windows for a GNU/Linux system, most free > > programs can also run on top of Windows. For instance, they can use > > I don't know if I'd say "most" here -- but "some" for sure, Python being a > premier example. Notice that I said "can also run" and not "has already been compiled". > > free browsers such as Mozilla and Phoenix instead of Explorer, free > > Office suits such as OpenOffice, instead of MSOffice, Gimp instead of > > Photoshop, etc. > > It's often the case that closed source proprietary software has more > features In most cases I know, proprietary software does not really have more features but it has a large advertising machine behind them which makes them looked as if they were much more advanced than their free counterparts. > and the people who buy it make plenty of money with it -- enough to > easily justify the cost of ownership. I'm not talking about costs here. I'm sure that all the money I spend everyday to advocate for free software is more than I would spend if I bought proprietary software and used it quietly. But my freedom is more valuable than all that money I spend. > And so it works both ways: lots of proprietary, closed source software is > run on top of Linux in this world, not just on top of Windows. We shouldn't > spread the myth that, once you've moved to an open source operating system, > that everything you do after that is open source. Not every C++ program > compiled with gcc has to be GPLed (that's not a requirement for > using gcc). I agree. That's exactly why I advocate free software and not just Linux. At a recent public debate I had with representatives of Oracle and Microsoft, the guy from Oracle said that he was absolutely shocked to find out that his views were closer to Microsoft's and opposed to those of the free software association I lead. He mistakingly thought that since Oracle DBMS runs on Linux, we were on the same train and opposed to Microsoft. > Nor does executable Python have to have any source code accompanying it > (plus a lot of Python stuff isn't meant for distribution -- as Eric Raymond > points out, tons of real world working software is custom in-house stuff, > not any kind of commercial "product"). I've spent many years as a > programmer, writing thousands of lines of code, and yet nothing that I've > coded has ever been sold to anyone else in a shrink-wrapped box. This is > very typical. Sure, I'm well aware of that. > I'm very much in favor of open source software and am always glad when it > proves itself as capable or more so, than the closed source > competition. For me it is not a matter of technical competition. I would not like my country to undergo a competition between slavery and democracy to find out which one leads to a stronger economy. I think slavery is ethically wrong and the issue of whether it leads to a stronger economy or not is irrelevant. > But I don't expect all software to ever be open, not even all operating > systems (many of which run on devices other than desktops or > laptops). I don't either. I just expect the software that is imposed to me (by my employer or government) to be open. > Again, the analogy with schooling works: whereas algebra is in the public > domain and anyone is free to teach it or learn it, sometimes a new algorithm > is kept under wraps for proprietary advantage, e.g. the patent on RSA only > expired recently. I think that allowing a patent for the RSA algorithm is wrong. I prefer the European policy that equations and algorithms cannot be patented (I keep my fingers crossed that this policy is not changed at the prime minister's meeting on next Monday). > IBM, a heavy investor in Linux, still expects to be a major player in the > proprietary market. The commercial success of Linux has everything to do > with big companies realizing that open source does not force them to > surrender their right to keep secrets (only some loser companies like SCO > couldn't see how to turn a profit without selfishly and erroneously claiming > exclusive private ownership over ideas that belonged to the Unix > community). Exactly. And I do not see anything wrong with the desire to keep secrecy as long as they do not claim ownership of any ideas. > Finally, in practice what happens to a lot of GPL code is it gets forked > internally to a company and moved into proprietary service. It's not shared > outside the company, so this is not strictly speaking against the license > (when you play with GPLed code in on your own computer, you're not compelled > to share these changes -- which may have broken it or made it worse). And I > agree with Jon Udell who writes about this phenomenon in 'Open Source > Citizenship' in Infoworld (10.27.03), that this is often a shortsighted > approach, that giving back to the community is about enlightened self > interest. I do not try to force people to give back to the community. If some company wants to profit from my GPLed program and use it for their own good without sharing any improvements, I do not feel bad; I'm glad they could profit from my contribution. What I expect is that commercial interests do not forbid me from giving back to the community or sharing if I want to. Regards, Jaime From urnerk at qwest.net Wed Nov 5 12:16:39 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed Nov 5 12:16:28 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] linux essay In-Reply-To: <20031105124033.GH545@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: > In most cases I know, proprietary software does not really have more > features but it has a large advertising machine behind them which > makes them looked as if they were much more advanced than their free > counterparts. I work with an outfit that suggests open source alternatives to NGOs. In most cases we do find alternatives, but in many of these cases, the alternatives have fewer features and are harder for end users. For example, ad hoc, GUI-based, banded report designers with nested data grouping (for printing data from SQL) are still hard to find in the open source world. Jasper Reports is open source Java, and quite capable, but needs its input in XML. The GUI front ends are still in beginning stages. The closed source world currently has more existing solutions. On a more personal note: I've had a hard time finding any VRML plug-in or freestanding program that will compete with Cortona on either Windows or Linux (Cortona is free, but not open source). Video editing and animation: open source is coming along (e.g. Cinelerra), but most would agree that the closed source options are far easier to use (ease of use is a feature). > > and the people who buy it make plenty of money with it -- enough to > > easily justify the cost of ownership. > I'm not talking about costs here. I'm sure that all the money I spend > everyday to advocate for free software is more than I would spend if I > bought proprietary software and used it quietly. But my freedom is > more valuable than all that money I spend. Yes, I'm not taking issue with what you personally do or do not do with your money. > I agree. That's exactly why I advocate free software and not just > Linux. At a recent public debate I had with representatives of Oracle > and Microsoft, the guy from Oracle said that he was absolutely > shocked to find out that his views were closer to Microsoft's and > opposed to those of the free software association I lead. > He mistakingly thought that since Oracle DBMS runs on Linux, we were on > the same train and opposed to Microsoft. We recommend PostgreSQL for many nonprofits. Again, I haven't found any GUI-based SQL designers as easy to use as the one in Microsoft Access. But if you know SQL, you don't need a GUI designer. This is typical: the open source option requires greater sophistication (and this isn't always a bad thing of course -- just being able to read source code in various languages takes a lot of training, and yet this is what the power of open source really depends on). > For me it is not a matter of technical competition. I would not like > my country to undergo a competition between slavery and democracy to > find out which one leads to a stronger economy. I think slavery is > ethically wrong and the issue of whether it leads to a stronger economy > or not is irrelevant. I don't think closed source software is necessarily evil, and don't make the analogy with slavery. I am dependent on a great many services and products in an industrialized society which I do not have the ability to create or modify. This is just life in the big city. I certainly understand why governments wouldn't want to base their systems on proprietary, closed source software. I don't understand how electronic voting machine software in a democracy could be closed source (as it is in the USA). The whole voting process should be completely transparent (except we need to protect the identities of voters). Here, the danger of enslavement is more real (but not in every context). Certainly agree that there should be no barriers to people collaborating to provide free and open source solutions. More power to us! > I think that allowing a patent for the RSA algorithm is wrong. I > prefer the European policy that equations and algorithms cannot be > patented (I keep my fingers crossed that this policy is not changed at > the prime minister's meeting on next Monday). I tend to agree with you on this. > Exactly. And I do not see anything wrong with the desire to keep > secrecy as long as they do not claim ownership of any ideas. I think the patent system is out of control and it's way too easy for corporations to file for exclusive rights on things (not just ideas, but natural phenomena, processes, everything). The trend towards privatization has gone too far. I think the legal system had a very serious bug introduced when corporations were given the full rights of persons. This was not the case in pre civil war USA. > I do not try to force people to give back to the community. If some > company wants to profit from my GPLed program and use it for their own > good without sharing any improvements, I do not feel bad; I'm glad > they could profit from my contribution. What I expect is that > commercial interests do not forbid me from giving back to the > community or sharing if I want to. Yes, I support your right, and that of the open source community, to grow and evolve. Kirby From lac at strakt.com Wed Nov 5 12:29:53 2003 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Wed Nov 5 12:30:06 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] linux essay In-Reply-To: Message from "Kirby Urner" of "Wed, 05 Nov 2003 09:16:39 PST." References: Message-ID: <200311051729.hA5HTrnc026825@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Kirby writes: >I think the patent system is out of control and it's way too easy for >corporations to file for exclusive rights on things (not just ideas, but >natural phenomena, processes, everything). The trend towards privatization >has gone too far. You may be pleased to know that the Federal Trade Commision agrees with you. It made a report this October 2003 entitled 'To Promote Innovation: The Proper Balance of Competition and Patent Law and Policy'. Report: http://www.ftc.gov/os/2003/10/innovationrpt.pdf Summary: http://www.ftc.gov/os/2003/10/innovationrptsummary.pdf Laura From mhearne808 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 6 06:20:26 2003 From: mhearne808 at yahoo.com (Michael Hearne) Date: Thu Nov 6 06:20:37 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python programming game Message-ID: <20031106112026.65494.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> All - I have an idea for a game, or rather a game (buzzword alert) framework, that would help people learn how to program in Python. The basic idea is this: Python supplies several methods of interpreting text as Python code. These could be used to design a game where students are presented with the description of a program (script, function, class) to be written, and the input and output for above program. The player then writes Python code according to this stated design, and then the game tests that code against expected results. If the player's results match the expected results, he or she advances to the next level. In order to be really effective, the game should have several elements: - a good story - decent graphics (not my forte) - increasing levels of difficulty - a clear end goal I'm thinking it might be possible to create an architecture that supports game modules (a la D&D), where these modules present different stories and challenges. It is also my hope that these modules could be constructed without writing any new Python code, but simply text (XML?) files that contain the text of the story, the "design", and the rewards for failure. This may not turn out to be possible, but it's an idea, anyway. My problem is that I really feel like I need someone else to bounce ideas off of, and perhaps start developing with. I have some initial questions to the crowd: 1) Is there anything out there like this? I read a review of one of the Matrix videogames, where part of the challenge was writing code in C. Not being a big gamer, I haven't attempted to verify this. (Would be cool, if true.) 2) Is there some major technical reason why this isn't possible on any scale other than trivial? I've done some initial prototyping, and you can in fact read in text, interpret it, and check the results. Haven't tried anything complex. 3) Does someone want to run with this idea and just build it? Honestly, I think I might rather just _play_ this game than write it:) Any input would be helpful. Thanks, Mike __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From cs1spw at bath.ac.uk Thu Nov 6 11:33:04 2003 From: cs1spw at bath.ac.uk (Simon Willison) Date: Thu Nov 6 11:31:07 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] SchoolTool - administration tool for education written in Python Message-ID: <3FAA77C0.9010108@bath.ac.uk> I just spotted this on Simon Brunning's blog [ http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/archives/001041.html ]: http://www.schooltool.org/ """ SchoolTool is a project to develop a common global school administration infrastructure that is freely available under an Open Source licence. Our vision is to create a platform that is equally compelling for schools and colleges in First and Third World countries, that supports best practices in school administration and which is readily customised to comply with local regulatory requirements. """ It's got backing from the Shuttleworth Foundation, which is owned by the guy who went in to Space as a Space Tourist last year. It looks like it could be a really interesting project. It's not directly related to teaching (it's for administration) but it seems relevant to this list. -- Simon Willison Web development weblog: http://simon.incutio.com/ From arkamir at softhome.net Thu Nov 6 18:31:30 2003 From: arkamir at softhome.net (Conrad Koziol) Date: Thu Nov 6 18:31:46 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] a subject In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1068161490.5395.1.camel@quercus> Hey I can probably test the game, and maybe write some of the basic things, I'm still a major noob. For the schooltools thingy, is this like a version of lotus notes?? From arkamir at softhome.net Thu Nov 6 18:48:18 2003 From: arkamir at softhome.net (Conrad Koziol) Date: Thu Nov 6 18:48:32 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Linux Essay Message-ID: <1068162498.5395.7.camel@quercus> Hey does anyone know of a website that I can use as a source that provides evidence that linux is faster than windows :). I cant seem to find one From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Thu Nov 6 19:43:53 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Thu Nov 6 19:43:36 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Linux Essay References: <1068162498.5395.7.camel@quercus> Message-ID: <000e01c3a4c8$385ded40$6501a8c0@vaio> > Hey does anyone know of a website that I can use as a source that > provides evidence that linux is faster than windows :). I cant seem to > find one To do what? Anyway try these... http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=benchmark+linux+vs%2E+windows - Jason From rballard at missisquoi.k12.vt.us Sat Nov 8 12:08:50 2003 From: rballard at missisquoi.k12.vt.us (Richard Ballard) Date: Sat Nov 8 12:08:57 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] open source educational programs Message-ID: <3FAD2322.6020604@missisquoi.k12.vt.us> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031108/932ec722/attachment.html From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Nov 8 12:41:43 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Nov 8 12:41:41 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: pythonic geometry class In-Reply-To: <000e01c3a4c8$385ded40$6501a8c0@vaio> Message-ID: FYI, per my usual practice, I've been journaling about my ongoing Pythonic geometry class for home schoolers in the Math Forum archives: http://www.mathforum.com/epigone/math-teach/grandiyix Kirby From d.holton at vanderbilt.edu Sun Nov 9 15:29:18 2003 From: d.holton at vanderbilt.edu (Doug Holton) Date: Sun Nov 9 15:30:01 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] open source educational programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAEA39E.3000505@vanderbilt.edu> > wondering if there are other good and easy to use programs for other > school activities such as test writing (kids taking test on computers), > grades etc. Just teacher administration needs. I'm a teacher of middle > school and would like to have the kids doing more computer based pre > and post test etc.
For test writing its probably easiest just to use one of those websites that let teachers create quizzes for their students: http://www.google.com/search?q=online+quiz+generator For something that runs as a desktop application, Hot Potatoes looks good. It is free but not open source: http://web.uvic.ca/hrd/hotpot/index.htm For open source educational apps, see: http://richtech.ca/seul/ EClass.Builder is one done in Python: http://www.eclass.net/ But really the place where you'll get 100 suggestions is the h-edtech mailing list, or search their archives: http://www.h-net.org/~edweb/ From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Nov 9 21:20:27 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Nov 9 21:19:36 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Fwd: Sonia = Jsyn+Processing :-) Message-ID: <000801c3a731$35c5d6e0$6501a8c0@vaio> 25 Oct 2003 Sound and Tablet! Amit Pitaru has released the first two Processing external libraries. Sonia integrates Processing and the JSyn audio library. It requires the JSyn plugin to run from the web, but has a superior sound quality to the default Processing library. His Wacom tablet interface provides access to the pressure and tilt data from a tablet. http://www.pitaru.com/sonia http://www.pitaru.com/sonia/#examples JSyn http://www.softsynth.com/jsyn/ Processing http://proce55ing.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031109/4d42413a/attachment.html From villate at gnu.org Sun Nov 9 16:25:59 2003 From: villate at gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Mon Nov 10 03:37:37 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] open source educational programs In-Reply-To: <3FAD2322.6020604@missisquoi.k12.vt.us> References: <3FAD2322.6020604@missisquoi.k12.vt.us> Message-ID: <20031109212559.GB1092@fe.up.pt> On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 12:08:50PM -0500, Richard Ballard wrote: > I was reading Simon Willison post about the school tool project and was > wondering if there are other good and easy to use programs for other > school activities such as test writing (kids taking test on computers), > grades etc. Just teacher administration needs. I'm a teacher of middle > school and would like to have the kids doing more computer based pre > and post test etc. In: http://www.xplana.com/whitepapers/archives/Open_Source_Courseware you find a review of 19 different courseware systems. I personally use Moodle; it allows me to make quizes and assign homework for my students and they can discuss in the forums. I'm also helping a colleague --who teaches scheme programming-- to use the system for automatically grading the student's programs. The programs uploaded by the students are run, their output is compared to the expected output, and grades are recorded into the SQL database used by Moodle. Regards, Jaime From kbscamreporter at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 15:38:35 2003 From: kbscamreporter at yahoo.com (kbscamreporter) Date: Mon Nov 10 16:45:37 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Strivectin Scam SD Strivectin-SD Zantrex Zantrex-3 Fraud Message-ID: <20031110203835.24574.qmail@plain.rackshack.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031110/76d64aec/attachment.html From kleinbeckerscam at hotmail.com Wed Nov 12 16:53:39 2003 From: kleinbeckerscam at hotmail.com (kleinbeckerscam) Date: Wed Nov 12 16:59:30 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Klein Becker now under federal investigation Message-ID: <20031112215339.6090.qmail@mach10.com> Congressional Committee on Energy and Commerce comes out swinging against Diet Drugs targeted to Children, FDA Loopholes used to market Illegal Steroids STRAFFORD [drugINTEL] - 3 Apr 2003 - The Committee on Energy and Commerce showed no signs of political stupor or regulatory catharsis as it stepped up to take on some of the endemic problems that FTC and FDA have been helpless to deal with. Targeting nutraceuticals touted as Diet Drugs, the Committee on Energy and Commerce has demanded documentation of ingredients and clinical demonstration of safety and efficacy that vendors breezily contend is overwhelming but is never cited. Members of the Committee on Energy and Commerce requested FDA Commissioner Mark McClellan and the Drug Enforcement Agency to investigate and close loopholes allowing banned steroids to get on the market without needing to obtain FDA approval. Steroid precursors and pro-drugs that will form testosterone-related Illegal Steroids in the body are being sold by companies that were not named in the letters for obvious reasons. Skinny Pill flouts Congressional Committee on Energy and Commerce Requests Skinny Pill (see Website) is a name of a company (possibly identical to the Fountain of Youth Group LLC) in Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida, whose president is Edita Kaye. This pill contains a number of mostly diuretic herbal components including Uva ursi, juniper berry, and buchu leaf. Uva ursi is contraindicated in the PDR for children under 12. All cause the body to lose water. Dr. Alison Hoppin, chief of the pediatric obesity clinic at Massachusetts General Hospital, said "Diuretics in children can cause kidney problems and electrolyte imbalances if taken long term." Diuretics are likely to show an artefactual weight loss due to decrease in the amount of water in the body, thus showing immediate changes on the bathroom scale. "It's absolutely outrageous; "It's not going to help people lose weight. It's junk science," added Keith Ayoob, a pediatric nutritionist and an American Dietetic Association spokesman. Daniel Mowrey, affiliated with competitor Klein-Becker (possibly identical to Basic Research, both of Provo, Utah - a question Congress wants clarified) makers/distributors of diet drug Anorex (See drugINTEL News 27 Jan 2003) states "On her website Kaye claims that her 'Skinny Pill for Kids' is a 'safe, effective weight loss formula for children ages 6 -12'. However, a review of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) / National Library of Medicine database (PubMed) reveals not one single published clinical trial that has been conducted with anything called the 'Skinny Pill for Kids' or the combination and amount of active ingredients that make up the formula related to weight loss in children ages 6 to 12." Klein-Becker receives Congressional Request to put cards on the table The Klein-Becker / Basic Research criticism is apparently a case of the kettle calling the pot black, perhaps because of its competing product, PediaLean, containing an unidentified product "Pediatropin" derived from the P. rivieri root - all shrouded in mystery and scientific-sounding hype. A letter from the Committee on Energy and Commerce points out the deceptive nature of PediaLean advertising and notes the lack of safety or efficacy data. We found no genus to correlate with "P." rivieri, but the plant in question may be Amorphophallus rivieri also known as Konjac Root. One of the supporters of PediaLean is Nathalie Chevreau, member of the Scientific Advisory Board of Supplement Watch. Opinion: Caution is necessary in weighing the endorsements of "Supplement Watch". A random sampling of the reviews on Nutraceuticals revealed that some valid criticisms were given where appropriate, although it is far from rigorous or comprehensive - for instance, the very important induction of cytochrome oxidases by St. John's wort is not noted, and warnings concerning Ripped Fuel and Ephedra are understated. Despite the HON affiliation, source literature is rarely cited. At least one member of Supplement Watch is listed with a university affiliation, but it turns out that he was only a postdoctoral student at the university. Many of the members do not hold doctorates. Supplement Watch is "internally financed". You can make a complaint to the FDA regarding Supplements at the link below http://www.fda.gov/oc/buyonline/buyonlineform.htm From arkamir at softhome.net Wed Nov 12 18:51:25 2003 From: arkamir at softhome.net (Conrad Koziol) Date: Wed Nov 12 19:20:45 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] linux essay Message-ID: <1068681085.5961.3.camel@quercus> It blew up in my face. I loaded knoppix, on my teacher's comp, half the screen was missing on the projecter. I manually shut it down. Then started it and and took out knoppix. The graphics card got f'up and the moniter said no input. Tested the moniter with another comp and it worked fine. So all I did today was mess up a $30 card, or mess up the drivers for windows and lose my teachers data. Hope you had a better day. From missive at hotmail.com Wed Nov 12 19:45:10 2003 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Wed Nov 12 19:45:52 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: linux essay Message-ID: >So all I did today was mess up a $30 card, or mess up the >drivers for windows and lose my teachers data. Hope you >had a better day. > Don't panic. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From alansalmoni at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 13 06:50:02 2003 From: alansalmoni at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20James=20Salmoni?=) Date: Thu Nov 13 06:50:11 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computer Hatred Message-ID: <20031113115002.42197.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hello Shelley, I am *really* sorry about not replying earlier - I think the original email got buried under lots of others when my account was being slammed by the latest worm. I've done a little bit of thinking into this topic, but I don't think I can shed too much light on what may be happening. I suppose to begin with, there are a lot more users than there used to be - more people are finding that they have to use computers, and instead of being curious about them, the overall response may be one of boredom and uninterest perhaps? Otherwise, in terms of most applications, complexity has been growing: with every new release of an application, more functionality is added whether end users need all the functions or not (and we rarely do - I think I've used about 10% of Excels capabilities altogther in my own work!). This seems to lead to more complex user interfaces, both in terms of the visual aspects (lots more toolbars with lots more buttons, horrendously long and deep menu structures), and also in terms of how a person uses the interface. Just think how simple MacIntosh System 6 seems today, then remember it had to do a lot less than say XP, OS X or Linux. When experienced people are faced with a new application's interface, we only have to assimilate the new aspects with which we are not familiar. I guess with people learning computers for the first time, they are going to be faced with the kind of interface that is just so complex and difficult to understand, that it seems like an impossible task, a mountain of information to learn before they can even begin to do anything useful. I don't really have any evidence for this because I don't know if anyone has done any investigation of it. If I had to make an explanation though, I would say this: modern application interfaces are often intimidating to new users in a way that people like us never had to experience. It is possible that your students don't relate the "monster" of an application with everyday tasks. It sounds like I'm recommending a book like "fun with spreadsheets" or something which sounds horrendous, but there is an easter egg in Excel which might make them relate to it more (it's a flight simulator - not sure how to get to it, but Google seems a good place to try) Short of making an application simple and straightforward looking (which is probably not possible in this case), I don't see a way around this except by introducing people to the computer world by using older and hopefully simpler versions of the applications they will be trained to use. Then you could gradually get them more used to the complex versions without being thrown in at the deep end. Hope this helps, but let me know if you have any questions. Alan. >In a message of Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:03:53 BST, Shelley Walsh writes: >I'm not looking for a statistical package. I am trying to discover such >basic things as why it is so much easier to press 2+4= on a calculator than >=2+4 in a spreadsheet. Or for that matter why typing 2+4 at a >>> prompt is >so much harder than pressing 2+4= on a calculator. My experience was that >students were even more violently against Python than they were against >Excel. The ** drives for powers scares them even more than the ^ does. >-- >Shelley Walsh >shelley.walsh9@ntlworld.com >http://homepage.mac.com/shelleywalsh I think the question you need to ask is 'what makes a calculator easy to use'. It may simply be that people are trained to use a calculator, long before you meet them. (How old are these students, anyway?) Plenty of things are called 'intuitive' when all they actually are is 'familiar'. This makes measuring whether something is actually 'easy to use' vs 'you just know how to do it' a difficult problem for Human Computer Interaction. Perhaps your user community is distinctly different from mine, but the 12 year old children in the computer club don't like '**' for power because they are unfamiliar with that notation. (Some of them are unfamiliar with the notion of exponentiation as well.) Giving them a page of 'pen and paper' math problems to solve, where they were asked to use the ** notation made them familiar with it, which fixed that problem. The first year, I thought that 8 questions would be sufficient for familiarity, but that proved not to be the case. Next year I used 20, and had no trouble. It may be that your students need more hands on training with computers to become more familiar with loading and using programs in general, or certain programs in particular. Laura Creighton ===== Alan James Salmoni SalStat Statistics http://salstat.sunsite.dk ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk From arkamir at softhome.net Thu Nov 13 18:38:57 2003 From: arkamir at softhome.net (Conrad Koziol) Date: Thu Nov 13 18:39:17 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig Digest, Vol 4, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1068766737.6077.3.camel@quercus> I'm not in trouble at least and don't have too buy them a new card. I think I convinced my teacher that the graphics card was a peice of crap and was gonna break anyways. Well sorta, they havent talked to me about breaking it. So thats good. Though i do have large whole in my reputation now. :( Half the kids love me because they didn't have there presentations done and needed more time. The other half think I'm a loser and think way too highly of linux. From a.najarian at att.net Tue Nov 18 14:17:57 2003 From: a.najarian at att.net (a.najarian@att.net) Date: Tue Nov 18 14:18:04 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Children's Internet Gateway Project Message-ID: <111820031917.18493.3be@att.net> Dear Everyone, I am writing to introduce you to the Children's Internet Gateway Project (http://www.opensourcearmenia.com/gateway). Our goal is to create a Web portal for kids by using open-source tools. A number of portals for kids exist out there. But we want something a) that is open-source; b) that kids can participate in making; c) that will be available in Armenian, too (and yes, most of us are Armenians :)). We'd like that portal to be a fun place, and one of the things we're hoping to accomplish is to build a game-making environment, using Python. Does anybody know if there are efforts in that direction (i.e. Python game-making software)? We are using Plone (and Zope, and Python) to build the portal. We have produced (and are continuing work on) an Armenian localization for Plone (test site at http://spi.zoper.com/tziatzan) as a part of this effort. Another thing we're doing is making a prototypical school intranet (for schools in Armenia, again) -- and lobbying with the various schools/NGOs/the government (not all schools have computers, let alone a computer network) to try these out. If anyone has recommendations about nice educational intranet portals, we'd love to hear them. This project received some funding from the Open Source Armenia, and is staffed by volunteer effort. There are kids and adults collaborating on this (online); one project team is located in the small town of Spitak, Armenia (http://www.spitux.org), and then there are some people in the capital of Armenia, and finally, a few of us here in Boston. We'd be happy to hear from you -- if you'd like to help us out with any comments or suggestions, or point us to your favorite kids' sites, or features, or anything, really. Write to us, or visit our forum at: http://www.opensourcearmenia.com/Projects/gateway/forum Best regards, -- Anoush Najarian The SpiTux Project: http://www.spitux.org 2003 LinuxFund.org Grant Children's Internet Gateway Project http://opensourcearmenia.com/Projects/gateway Plone Armenian l10n http://spi.zoper.com/tziatzan TuxType Armenian Theme http://opensourcearmenia.com/Projects/Tuxtype Email: a.najarian@att.net URL: http://www.math.uiuc.edu/~najarian From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Nov 18 17:17:05 2003 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue Nov 18 17:22:42 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] ANN: PyLogo 0.1 Message-ID: PyLogo 0.1 ========== This is the first public release of the still rough (but I think functional) PyLogo interpreter. PyLogo interprets the Logo language, an education Lisp-like language best known for its turtle graphics. Found at: http://pylogo.org Who Is This For? ================ This release is primarily targeted at other developers. Though PyLogo is a fairly complete Logo implementation, the programming environment is still rough. Because PyLogo is written in Python, this is a very easy interpreter to work with -- the code is small, it's easy to create new primitives using Python code, and there's already a wide array of interesting and useful Python libraries which are easily made accessible to Logo programs. It also inherits Python's rich object model (though it needs more work to make Python objects easier to work with), which makes it possible to avoid some of the more crude features of some Logo dialects with respect to properties (dictionaries), files, etc. What Does It Do Now? ==================== PyLogo implements all of the core Logo features (as far as I know), generally trying to match UCBLogo (the de facto standard Logo implementation). Like traditional Logo, it uses dynamic scoping and a global namespace. Unlike many young language implementation, the existence of bugs is given consideration -- errors produce tracebacks, and room exists for even more helpful error diagnostics. Turtle graphics are available, including multiple turtles. You can use multiple, concurrent threads in your Logo programs. (You can't use threads and turtles together -- yet) -- Ian Bicking | ianb@colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From pobrien at orbtech.com Tue Nov 18 21:06:51 2003 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Tue Nov 18 21:07:15 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] ANN: PyLogo 0.1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ian Bicking writes: > PyLogo 0.1 > ========== > > This is the first public release of the still rough (but I think > functional) PyLogo interpreter. PyLogo interprets the Logo > language, an education Lisp-like language best known for its turtle > graphics. Damn! I thought you had come up with a way to produce a killer logo for the Python website. :-( -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien ----------------------------------------------- "Your source for Python programming expertise." ----------------------------------------------- From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Nov 18 22:41:48 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Nov 18 22:41:36 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] ANN: PyLogo 0.1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An insider joke from the Py Man. Python-marketing is always in the travails of what iconography to use around Python. One contender (nixed by the board): http://pythonology.org/logos Kirby > Damn! I thought you had come up with a way to produce a killer logo > for the Python website. :-( > > -- > Patrick K. O'Brien > Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien > ----------------------------------------------- > "Your source for Python programming expertise." > ----------------------------------------------- PS: PyLogo looks cool. I've recently implemented a /very/ primitive turtle which doesn't even show in real time (but could); it rather leaves its trace in a POV-Ray file, for later rendering. From villate at gnu.org Wed Nov 19 13:42:22 2003 From: villate at gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Wed Nov 19 13:42:45 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Children's Internet Gateway Project In-Reply-To: <111820031917.18493.3be@att.net> References: <111820031917.18493.3be@att.net> Message-ID: <20031119184222.GC1274@fe.up.pt> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 07:17:57PM +0000, a.najarian@att.net wrote: > Dear Everyone, > > I am writing to introduce you to the Children's Internet Gateway Project > (http://www.opensourcearmenia.com/gateway). Do you mean http://www.opensourcearmenia.com/Projects/gateway/ ? Jaime From a.najarian at att.net Wed Nov 19 13:52:40 2003 From: a.najarian at att.net (a.najarian@att.net) Date: Wed Nov 19 13:52:44 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Children's Internet Gateway Project Message-ID: <111920031852.26358.3004@att.net> > > I am writing to introduce you to the Children's Internet Gateway Project > > (www.opensourcearmenia.com/gateway). > > Do you mean http://www.opensourcearmenia.com/Projects/gateway/ ? Thanks -- that's nice :) That's what I get for typing inline... You're right, it should be http://www.opensourcearmenia.com/Projects/gateway -- Anoush Najarian The SpiTux Project: http://www.spitux.org 2003 LinuxFund.org Grant Children's Internet Gateway Project http://opensourcearmenia.com/Projects/gateway Plone Armenian l10n http://spi.zoper.com/tziatzan TuxType Armenian Theme http://opensourcearmenia.com/Projects/Tuxtype Email: a.najarian@att.net URL: http://www.math.uiuc.edu/~najarian From ajs at optonline.net Thu Nov 20 04:05:55 2003 From: ajs at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Nov 20 07:57:35 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Principles of Computer Graphics Message-ID: <000701c3af45$82472250$1c02a8c0@BasementDell> Here's a course I would love to audit: http://www.cse.msstate.edu/~tjk/cs4413-f03/resources.shtml Will be contacting the instructor. Art From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Fri Nov 21 13:38:46 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Fri Nov 21 13:40:54 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] MathWorld News Perfect Magic Cube of Order 5 Discovered Message-ID: <000801c3b05e$b32581e0$6501a8c0@vaio> Check out these cool interactive 3d magic cubes. Lovely use of Martin Kraus LiveGraphics3D. [for more fun --> right mouse drag adds/removes data] http://mathworld.wolfram.com/news/2003-11-18/magiccube/ http://www.vis.uni-stuttgart.de/~kraus/LiveGraphics3D/ - Jason -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MathWorld News Perfect Magic Cube of Order 5 Discovered.url Type: application/octet-stream Size: 182 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031121/21971d46/MathWorldNewsPerfectMagicCubeofOrder5Discovered.obj From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Nov 21 15:44:42 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Nov 21 15:44:42 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] MathWorld News Perfect Magic Cube of Order 5 Discovered In-Reply-To: <000801c3b05e$b32581e0$6501a8c0@vaio> Message-ID: I wrote a Python program to output in LiveGraphics3D format once. Kirby > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Jason Cunliffe > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:39 AM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] MathWorld News Perfect Magic Cube of Order 5 Discovered > > Check out these cool interactive 3d magic cubes. > Lovely use of Martin Kraus LiveGraphics3D. [for more fun --> right mouse > drag adds/removes data] > > > http://mathworld.wolfram.com/news/2003-11-18/magiccube/ > > http://www.vis.uni-stuttgart.de/~kraus/LiveGraphics3D/ > > - Jason From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Nov 25 00:55:32 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Nov 25 00:55:23 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] A bit o Python in Physics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So this Nebraska-based physics prof I met gets these volunteers to jump, run, leap, with like 25 wireless motion sensors taped on, which generate data somehow. He sends me these huge spreadsheets full of x,y,z positions for each sensor. So Python comes in handy to parse the data, translate it to POV-Ray, and trigger a rendering of each row from the spreadsheet into a frame (a bmp in Windows). bmp2avi.exe makes a movie, and avi2mpg1.exe makes the movie small enough to share (1.5MB vs. 250MB). Examples at: ftp://ftp.4dsolutions.net/pub I just thought I'd toss in a code snipped because it's kind of humorous: "knee bone connected to the ankle bone" kinda stuff (if you know the song I mean [1]) self.draw('L.Shoulder','Offset') self.draw('L.Shoulder','L.Elbow') self.draw('L.Shoulder','L.Asis') self.draw('L.Elbow','L.Wrist') self.draw('V.Sacral','L.Asis') self.draw('V.Sacral','L.Thigh') self.draw('L.Asis','L.Thigh') self.draw('L.Asis','L.Knee') self.draw('L.Thigh','L.Knee') self.draw('L.Knee','L.Shank') self.draw('L.Knee','L.Ankle') self.draw('L.Thigh','L.Shank') self.draw('L.Shank','L.Ankle') self.draw('L.Ankle','L.Heel') self.draw('L.Heel','L.Toe') self.draw('L.Ankle','L.Toe') http://www.gospel.mcmail.com/a-g/dry_bones.htm Kirby From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Tue Nov 25 02:10:30 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Tue Nov 25 02:09:48 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] A bit o Python in Physics References: Message-ID: <006401c3b323$36663100$6501a8c0@vaio> > I just thought I'd toss in a code snipped because it's kind of humorous: > "knee bone connected to the ankle bone" kinda stuff (if you know the song I > mean [1]) Cool..! That's sort of choreography is exactly what Poser5 offers [$249] - and includes a Python API to let you write your own variations on the song. The Manual http://labreport.curiouslabs.com/filemanager/filedownload/phpRJ9Y9D/Poser%205%20Reference%20Manual.pdf PoserPython Methods http://www.curiouslabs.com/article/articleview/279/?nf=1 http://www.curiouslabs.com/filemanager/filedownload/phpYfe5jb/PoserPython%20Methods_PRINTABLE.pdf Some scripts http://www.poserpython.com/ScriptsPage.html ..or Blender could interface nicely with your friends data. [its free] http://www.blender3d.com/ http://www.blender.org/ Python Programming Index http://jmsoler.free.fr/didacticiel/blender/tutor/english/index_prog_python.htm SPE - Stani's Python Editor http://spe.pycs.net "Spe is a python IDE with auto-indentation, auto completion, call tips, syntax coloring, syntax highlighting, class explorer, source index, auto todo list, sticky notes, integrated pycrust shell, python file browser, recent file browser, drag&drop, context help, ... Special is its blender support with a blender 3d object browser and its ability to run interactively inside blender. Spe is extensible with boa." Blender / Python API http://spe.pycs.net/stories/2.html - Jason From simon at arrowtheory.com Tue Nov 25 15:05:55 2003 From: simon at arrowtheory.com (Simon Burton) Date: Tue Nov 25 14:57:54 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] A bit o Python in Physics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031126070555.04dfd497.simon@arrowtheory.com> We do something related: http://arrowtheory.com/hypersense/index.html These are bend sensors attached to the fingers. Each generates a signal which is used to control sound in real-time. Custom built micro-controllers on each of us talk USB to a laptop running some python code that interprets the data and then sends OSC (midi like) messages to the sound engine. We sure would like to have 25 wireless sensors to play with! Simon. On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:55:32 -0800 "Kirby Urner" wrote: > > So this Nebraska-based physics prof I met gets these volunteers to jump, > run, leap, with like 25 wireless motion sensors taped on, which generate > data somehow. > ... -- Simon Burton, B.Sc. Licensed PO Box A66 ANU Canberra 2601 Australia Ph. 02 6249 6940 http://arrowtheory.com From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Tue Nov 25 23:01:37 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Tue Nov 25 23:01:42 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Fwd: [Book] Facts and Fallacies of Software Engineering Message-ID: <002601c3b3d1$fd744c60$6501a8c0@vaio> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0321117425/joelonsoftware/104-1547915-6462309 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031125/dc65542d/attachment.html From tdqnev at mindspring.com Wed Nov 26 09:50:42 2003 From: tdqnev at mindspring.com (Bessie Holman) Date: Wed Nov 26 06:59:44 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] keep that colon clean ku no Message-ID: <9$l$f-x8-7042c$2y-$$2k2v58c$$$6@lui.64> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031126/e02d45a9/attachment.html From ajs at optonline.net Wed Nov 26 00:18:28 2003 From: ajs at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Nov 26 07:56:02 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: A bit o Python in Physics Message-ID: <000701c3b3dc$b9b85bf0$1c02a8c0@BasementDell> Jason writes: >..or Blender could interface nicely with your friends data. >[its free] >http://www.blender3d.com/ >http://www.blender.org/ Blender seems to me to be something of a phenonoma - in the sense that a very considerable community of graphics artists and animators, all over the world, has formed around it. More than other than a hand few of other projects of which I am aware, it has quietly - in the sense that not much notice is taken of it within the Python community itself - added to the base of Python competents. SPE - Stani's Python Editor http://spe.pycs.net is relatively new. It is ambitious, releasing often, and the site shows closely to 30,000 hits - in what has to be a relatively short time period. And I can't resist a little bit of my "rap". As someone who took a half-hearted stab - I can assure anyone that Blender is a bear to approach. It is complicated and complex. And despite having one of the most intricate and involved GUI's I have ever seen, Python support was added specifically because even that was found not to be sufficient to achieve the flexibility and degree of freedom that its user base found it craved. It "marketshare" among computer graphics artists - properly termed 'artists' in the sense that most, I'm sure, are pursuing their work out of compelling interest and passion, not within commercial settings - is many orders of magnitude greater than something like Alice. Rich, powerful and empowering - first. Necessarily complex, then. Friendly only to the extent that such can be achieved without the least sacrifice of those first principles. A natural, therefore, for Python compatibility. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Wed Nov 26 12:36:09 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed Nov 26 12:35:59 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: A bit o Python in Physics In-Reply-To: <000701c3b3dc$b9b85bf0$1c02a8c0@BasementDell> Message-ID: > As someone who took a half-hearted stab - I can assure anyone that Blender > is a bear to approach. It is complicated and complex. Me too, took a stab at it, more than one. It's quite complex. Interesting how all the controls are drawn right into the OpenGL canvas. Blender is one of those technologies I'd have more success with were I to sit in a room with a computer projector and watch an expert take me through it. I pride myself on absorbing competence directly from documentation, but I'm increasingly coming to realize that there's no substitute for these other forms of presentation (which may be packaged on CD or DVD -- getting a real, live human in real time is often just not in the cards). Kirby From hancock at anansispaceworks.com Wed Nov 26 13:40:07 2003 From: hancock at anansispaceworks.com (Terry Hancock) Date: Wed Nov 26 13:34:03 2003 Subject: Blender, was Re: [Edu-sig] re: A bit o Python in Physics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OTOH, although I had a very daunting impression from looking at the interface (Bear in mind I only spent about 30 min using the tutorial and playing with it), my 8 yr-old son managed to start drawing wireframes after an hour or two of playing with it (I don't think he's gotten as far as rendering anything). Which makes me think it may be more a matter of initial fear than actual difficulty in the interface. It is extraordinarily complex, though. I can imagine that had AutoCAD set out to have full GUI control instead of using text commands, it might've looked like this. I note especially the use of meta-controls to swap out different control panels. It's clearly targetted at expert users who want quick access to the features -- it's meant for commercial production use, after all. And isn't it cool that it's now Free?! I really need to block out some time to work all the way through the tutorial. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com From ajs at optonline.net Wed Nov 26 09:32:47 2003 From: ajs at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Nov 26 17:10:35 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Blender Message-ID: <000501c3b42a$36f974d0$1c02a8c0@BasementDell> Terry writes: >It's clearly targetted at expert users who want quick access to the features -- it's meant for commercial production use, >after all. Not sure what you are saying. Seems to me there is only one way to become an expert user. The long way. Right? Nobody starts there, obviously. Which is the point - at least my point. Give folks something powerful, and no seduction acts and gift wrapping is necessary to entice folks - who are serious - to make the effort that is necessary. Geeks or artists or both and everything in between. If there is any seriousness at all, there is no expectation of much for little. Even if its a seriousness to be doing nothing more than having some fun, it seems to me. If there isn't considerable seriousness - off the radar, I would hope. >And isn't it cool that it's now Free?! Can't disagree with that. Art From dethe.elza at blastradius.com Wed Nov 26 19:46:46 2003 From: dethe.elza at blastradius.com (Dethe Elza) Date: Wed Nov 26 19:46:53 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Blender In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D5EB84C-2073-11D8-94C1-0003939B59E8@blastradius.com> I'll put my $0.02 (CAD) into the fray. I've tried to get at Blender quickly, a couple of times, and failed to find a handle to start with. I've used some 3D packages before, Infini-D and VPython are two ends of the spectrum, but I found each of them easy to sit down with and just *use*. If anyone has tips for how to start with Blender, it seems like there's a good audience for it here. --Dethe "I started with nothing, and I still have most of it." -- Steven Wright From ajs at optonline.net Wed Nov 26 19:45:13 2003 From: ajs at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Nov 26 20:22:25 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Blender Message-ID: <000901c3b47f$b857e480$1c02a8c0@BasementDell> Dethe asks- >If anyone has tips for how to start with Blender, it seems >like there's a good audience for it here. from www.blender.org """ Manual 2.3 pre-sales Although design is still in progress, we expect to be able to ship the 2.3 manuals last week of december. It's almost 600 pages in size, printed in two colors, including 16 pages full color image gallery, and CDROM with example files, graphics and movies. You can check it out at the e-shop here. Pre-ordering will save you over 10 USD. But not only that; the first 250 orders will get the book signed with a personal message by me! """ No idea who "me" is. Having 4 or 5 Python books on my shelf (Nutshell, the latest - and not the least bit disappointed with it), I would think that that kind of approach to Blender would also be sensible. In the mean time - have you looked at Spe http://spe.pycs.net/ built-in pycrust shell, (yeah Patrick) and much else including a blender 3d object browser. Probably not the traditional approach to beginning Blender - but it might make sense as an approach for someone already an accomplished Pythonista. Personally, I've backed off of Blender. Although the SPE editor is new to me via Jason's post. Which seems an avenue to bring the Python scripting aspect to the fore - and perhaps a new hook for me to try as well. Though my interest/aptitude for creating 3d art of the kind Blender is facilitating is the real limiting factor, in my case. Art -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: manual23.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22069 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031126/5a81e2d1/manual23-0001.jpg From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Wed Nov 26 20:42:53 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Wed Nov 26 20:41:59 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Blender Basics Tutorials Message-ID: <000c01c3b487$c7178d60$6501a8c0@vaio> Yeah it is strange bird... If you can clarify what is confusing/hard that would be helpful Although Blender is free they sell books to help support it. Check the main site. A new one in the works looks like it should be the clearest one yet. I imagine a lot of people would like a good CD/DVD by a Blender guru to show the rhythm of using it. I would. Perhaps one is already in the works in France or Netherlands.. There are quite a number of website tutorials out there, including pretty well illustrated ones. The problem with Blender learning curve is that it is quite unique [for better and for worse]. It's interface is an odd combination of interactive contextual and postfix design logic. {Maybe its a Dutch game things I don't know.} Blender is designed to be used with two hands - one on the mouse and the other on the hotkeys [keyboard] and your minds eye on the screen. Everyone recommends a 3 button [scrolling] mouse. Context changes everything in Blender so where the mouse is determines hotkey function. Than means tutorials have to use a lot of words where really one needs dynamic illustration. Flash or some such to explain with rollovers highlight what is relevant. I describe it as 'Postfix' also because essential operation like selection and action seem to be in a counter-intuitive sequence to many other softwares. Blender is sort of like Forth meets Modality-zilla. I'll post some more sites later, but here are a few for starters: Slide show tutorial with annotation covers UI basics http://blendedmind.i8.com/tutorials.html#tutorials Blender Hot Keys http://members.chello.nl/j.kassenaar/blender/hotkeys/index.htm http://www.crosseyedmedia.com/0_a_px800/tutorials.html good luck - Jason -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Blender Basics Tutorials.url Type: application/octet-stream Size: 162 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031126/1aaf8669/BlenderBasicsTutorials.obj From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Thu Nov 27 02:32:30 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Thu Nov 27 02:31:54 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] MakeHuman Message-ID: <001601c3b4b8$9e265400$6501a8c0@vaio> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MakeHuman.url Type: application/octet-stream Size: 162 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031127/ba88bfbe/MakeHuman.obj From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Thu Nov 27 02:47:16 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Thu Nov 27 02:46:39 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] zoo blender index == les blendies francophones Message-ID: <002001c3b4ba$adc213c0$6501a8c0@vaio> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoo blender index.url Type: application/octet-stream Size: 168 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031127/85f6413c/zooblenderindex.obj From paul at soniq.net Thu Nov 27 22:17:55 2003 From: paul at soniq.net (Paul Boehm) Date: Thu Nov 27 22:18:09 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] tool for teaching/learning programming Message-ID: <20031128031755.GB24644@soniq.net> [originally sent to a less technically oriented mailinglist] hi, i've written a 2d robotwar game engine i use for programming lessons. maybe others on this list also find the code helpful when trying to teach programming. a beta is available here: http://soniq.net/~paul/pyrobots-0.0c.tgz the engine is written in python, and currently i'd consider it usable, but incomplete (and lacking documentation). the core of the engine is very hackish, but the interface provided to bot-writers is clean and simple (cooperative multitasking instead of event oriented, which makes it easier for beginners) the basic idea is to first play a bot that takes userinput(keyboard) and after understanding how you would play the game, you can write your own bot to play for you, and compete against other bots (in online arenas). the game uses simple textfiles as maps. example: 70 ####################################### # # # T # # # # t # # T # # # # t # # 0 t # # 1 t # # # # T # # # # # ####################################### #'s are walls 0 is player 1 1 is player 2 T is a treasure worth 25 points t is a treasure worth 10 points in this map the player who first gathers 70 points wins. the engine can visualize what is happening both in text (like above), or graphically (using pygame, right now lacking a pretty tileset) maps can be arbitrarily sized. the graphical view atm scales with size, but in the future might do scrolling (doesn't make sense before network support is in, though) more complex levels (think pacman, sokoban, ...) are planned for the future, different game modes (fog of war, powerups, ...) and network support too. nothing's set in stone yet though, i'll see what modes make the game most fun and understandable to inexperienced programmers and newcomers, and improve on that. lg, paul From abc-100036 at apc.edu.ph Fri Nov 28 00:12:59 2003 From: abc-100036 at apc.edu.ph (abc-100036@apc.edu.ph) Date: Fri Nov 28 00:13:03 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] SYSTEM CLEAR in Python? Message-ID: <20031128051259.3756E65163@cerveza.apc.edu.ph> Anybody knows the syntax of system clear in Python? In visual c++, this is the code for system clear: -> system("cls") tnx!!! -- Angelo Cruz CSIT-Computer Network Engineer Asia Pacific College ________________________________________________________________________________________ This email message was delivered to you by Asia Pacific College. Scanning and Virus Filtering is delivered by RAV Antivirus. For more information, please visit our website or email the system administrators at mailto:sysadmins@apc.edu.ph. From mcfletch at rogers.com Fri Nov 28 01:26:51 2003 From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher) Date: Fri Nov 28 01:26:57 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] SYSTEM CLEAR in Python? In-Reply-To: <20031128051259.3756E65163@cerveza.apc.edu.ph> References: <20031128051259.3756E65163@cerveza.apc.edu.ph> Message-ID: <3FC6EAAB.9020901@rogers.com> import os os.system( 'cls' ) HTH, Mike abc-100036@apc.edu.ph wrote: >Anybody knows the syntax of system clear in Python? >In visual c++, this is the code for system clear: > -> system("cls") >tnx!!! > > _______________________________________ Mike C. Fletcher Designer, VR Plumber, Coder http://members.rogers.com/mcfletch/ From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 28 01:48:44 2003 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Fri Nov 28 01:49:00 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] SYSTEM CLEAR in Python? In-Reply-To: <20031128051259.3756E65163@cerveza.apc.edu.ph> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 abc-100036@apc.edu.ph wrote: > Anybody knows the syntax of system clear in Python? > In visual c++, this is the code for system clear: > -> system("cls") Hello, If you have general Python learning questions, please feel free to ask on Python-Tutor --- it's a mailing list dedicated for learning Python. http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor Your question may not be so appropriate on edu-sig, so you may not get the responses you desire. Please be more selective next time. Anyway, it sounds like you're looking for os.system(). For more information, see: http://www.python.org/doc/lib/os-process.html#l2h-1519 If you have questions on how to use it, please feel free to ask on Python-Tutor. Good luck to you. From ajs at optonline.net Fri Nov 28 12:49:04 2003 From: ajs at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Nov 28 14:47:13 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] PyCon education track update? Message-ID: <000501c3b5d7$ea2efd50$1c02a8c0@BasementDell> Happens that for myself, study and programming is larger a winter sport. My garden gone til the spring and golfing finished for the season ... so I have recently jumped back, with both feet, into extending my understanding of math/geometry. PyGeo is a working tool in those efforts, and the extension and improvement of PyGeo mostly a byproduct. But PyGeo is getting extended and improved. Decent documentation as usual being back burnered. It not being something *I* need to use and enjoy PyGeo. But am I needing to make time for a proposal for PyCon? Any prognosis on the fate of the education track? Art From d51hiy at msn.com Fri Nov 28 15:39:12 2003 From: d51hiy at msn.com (Adela Dodson) Date: Fri Nov 28 19:44:16 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] . U N I V E R S I T Y . D I P L O M A S . kbvjiosidiy Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031128/4f288502/attachment.html From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Nov 30 04:25:49 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Nov 30 04:25:49 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Simulated physics using virtual atoms Message-ID: <002301c3b723$f18576e0$6501a8c0@vaio> http://atoms.org.uk/ From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Nov 30 04:35:55 2003 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Nov 30 04:35:58 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tim Tyler's Home Page Message-ID: <000801c3b725$5b154760$6501a8c0@vaio> http://timtyler.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20031130/e9aa4a6e/attachment.html From jeff at elkner.net Sun Nov 30 21:07:32 2003 From: jeff at elkner.net (Jeffrey Elkner) Date: Sun Nov 30 21:07:35 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] PyCon education track update In-Reply-To: <000501c3b5d7$ea2efd50$1c02a8c0@BasementDell> References: <000501c3b5d7$ea2efd50$1c02a8c0@BasementDell> Message-ID: <1070244452.7599.13.camel@robeson> The fine folks who are organizing PyCon this year are setting the registration fee for students at $50.00. If you know of any students in the DC metropolitan area (or beyond) who would be interested in attending the conference, please spread the word. I still have a ZWiki set up at: http://linus.yorktown.arlington.k12.va.us/PyCon2004/EduTrack/ in the hopes that anyone who plans to attend PyCon who is interested in a Python in Education Track will add there name to the IllBeThere page and anyone interested in sharing what they are doing with Python in education would add there presentation idea to the PresentationProposals page. We would like to use this conference to reach out to folks who may be newer to Python and who are interested in finding more about what it has to offer. While we have a bit of a chicken and egg problem, if we get a sense that folks newer to Python will be attending, then I've committed my students to putting together a few presentations that would be of interest. Thus far there hasn't been enough of a response to be able to get a sense of where the interest lies. Hopefully, that will all change in the near future ;-) Jeffrey Elkner Open Book Project From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Nov 30 23:20:06 2003 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Nov 30 23:20:06 2003 Subject: [Edu-sig] PyCon education track update In-Reply-To: <1070244452.7599.13.camel@robeson> Message-ID: > Thus far there hasn't been enough of a response to be able to get a > sense of where the interest lies. Hopefully, that will all change in > the near future ;-) > I've just made a stab at a proposal, plus added to IllbeThere. Kirby