From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Mar 8 12:17:11 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Mar 8 12:17:07 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Lurking with high school computer science teachers In-Reply-To: <200402222223.i1MMNfqO026326@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: Over the weekend, I joined a planning meeting for a state-wide group of high school computer science teachers. I went as part of an invited delegation from FreeGeek, a nonprofit devoted to open source. The morning hours were about planning the various tracks of a two week conference this summer -- a yearly event devoted to the needs of computer science teachers in Oregon. Thanks to earlier contacts with the conference coordinator, I was able to get Python on the agenda. She actually gave me a lab for the entire 2nd week in order to do a hands-on workshop opposite 'Java AP Topics' (AP = Advanced Placement). However, she labeled this as tentative and explicitly asked for teacher feedback on this idea. The Programming committee would be the principal source of this feedback, so that's the one I attended -- my three peers from FreeGeek went to the Linux and Open Source committee (Linux has a slot across the whole two weeks). The Programming committee was facilitated by the teacher who would be running the Java AP Topics, and his sense was that just about all teachers would benefit from his workshop. He didn't know much about Python. Another teacher on the committee had been using Scheme and proposed sharing about that. If we were going to slot in a whole week on one or the other, the Java teacher thought he'd go with Scheme, having played with it a little. At this point, a dissenting opinion was voiced regarding Scheme, by a teacher who, turns out, is also a big fan of our old friend, the 3d animations studio named Alice (I hear Arthur grumbling). The president of the organization was also present in this group, and his thought was that we probably shouldn't give a whole workshop to any language teachers weren't currently teaching. They'd want overview first. The Java teacher was certainly open to the idea of doing *something* non-Java, on the theory that a lot of teachers would already know the basics (the subject of his first day or two), and these teachers might postpone joining his Java track until day 2 or 3. So I proposed splitting the time with the Scheme and Alice advocates, and just doing a presentation. I'm not clear whether the Alice advocate will actually get to present, as he wanted a lab, and whereas FreeGeek could have provided one for Python (a popular language at FreeGeek), the diskless workstation + 1 server setup wouldn't have the horsepower to boot Alice on multiple machines. I'm sharing this little slice of life to give edu-sig subscribers insight into one local proceeding, and how my enthusiasm for Python gets me into some up hill gradients, with mixed success (actually, I think idea of just doing some overview, versus a week-long workshop, is just fine this time -- could maybe do a full-blown workshop maybe next year, if interest deepens). A final observation: in the open source group, the facilitator had already switched to Python in his high school (I forget from what, Java?), and is a strong advocate for it. He sees a lot more sparks of understanding and a lot less glaze-over stares of incomprehension among his students. He's using 'How To Think Like a Computer Scientist' and something else (I mean to ask him again -- I also mentioned edu-sig and this discussion list, inviting him to join, which I'll likewise do again by email). Also: during our planning meeting, student teams from around the state were engaged in a programming contest. Fourteen problems were handed around, and the competing groups were to complete as many as they could. This was the 18th such annual event. My quick survey of the organizers indicated that so far, none of the teams were using Python. I got a copy of the contest problems and went through a few of them using Python after I got home (including the one they said was hardest -- my solution works, but I don't know if it'd be considered optimum -- contains a brute force element). I'm thinking during my upcoming presentation in August, I could feature some of these contest problems with Pythonic solutions. Teachers would see the relevance because these would be the kinds of problems their students would be seeing in future contests (maybe not the *best* kind of relevance, but at least it's close to home). If Python coders in this group want to solve a few of these (will I have time to do all fourteen? -- not likely), maybe we can coordinate. I'll ask the contest coordinator if the problems go to a website, now that the contest is over. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Mar 16 08:36:13 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Mar 16 08:36:16 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: Answer from the Apples legal dept. Message-ID: <0HUO00D0M8GQ35@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> This, I think, is interesting - the debian education folks trying to determine what they can do with Squeak. I have called off my boys as to Squeak, now that it no longer associated with Disney - so wish them luck. Art -----Original Message----- From: Knut Yrvin [mailto:knuty@skolelinux.no] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 4:59 AM To: debian-edu@lists.debian.org Subject: Fwd: Answer from the Apples legal dept. I'we got this from Apples legal department in Europe through our connections with the company in Norway. Our man in Norway asked if this is to live with? ---------- Videresendt melding ---------- Subject: Svar fra Apples legal dept. Date: tirsdag 16. mars 2004, 09:06 From: Jon Aalborg To: Knut Yrvin [...] "Squeak is an obsolete product no longer under development by Apple, so it is not practical for us to re-examine or modify the licensing terms used by Squeak. However, the U.S. Squeak community is exploring the possibility of using the relicensing option in the Squeak license to allow a third-party to accept indemnification, thus enabling Debian-style projects to incorporate squeak under a downstream license. We are not able to provide you with legal advice in this matter, but encourage you to contact your own legal counsel or your counterparts in the U.S." [...] -- Regards/mvh, +-------------------------------------+-------------------------------- -+ | Apple, Norway | Phone Apple : +47 22 95 49 00 | | Jon Aalborg | Fax Apple : +47 22 95 49 01 | | Education Sales Manager | | | Lilleakerveien 10 | | www.apple.com/no/education | P.O. Box 244 Lilleaker, N-O216 OSLO | | | NORWAY | | Mail aalborg.j(a)euro.apple.com | +-------------------------------------+-------------------------------- -+ ------------------------------------------------------- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-edu-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org From mrmrmr50 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 16 13:30:09 2004 From: mrmrmr50 at yahoo.com (mike re-v) Date: Tue Mar 16 13:32:28 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] squeak "obsolete" Message-ID: <20040316183009.63496.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> Squeak, "an obsolete product", seems to have a robust developemnt community behind it. The squeak-dev mailing list gets between 70-100 requests a day. Although it is a relatively simple matter to install from source on a freebsd or linux box, it would be nice if one of the major linux distributions would include it as a package. No doubt this would be a great way to promote it. best regards, re-v __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Mar 16 13:50:20 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Tue Mar 16 13:51:48 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] squeak "obsolete" Message-ID: <17643317ae4f.17ae4f176433@optonline.net> > Squeak, "an obsolete product", seems to have a robust > developemnt community behind it. The squeak-dev > mailing list gets between 70-100 requests a day. > Although it is a relatively simple matter to install > from > source on a freebsd or linux box, it would be nice if > one of the major linux distributions would include it > as a package. No doubt this would be a great way to > promote it. > best regards, > re-v There are licensing issues, starting from its Apple heritage, and apparently exasperated by the flirtation with Disney. See below. Art >> Squeak license to allow a third-party to accept indemnification, thus >> enabling Debian-style projects to incorporate squeak under a >> downstream license. We are not able to provide you with legal >> advice in this matter, but encourage you to contact your own legal >> counsel or your counterparts in the U.S." > >[...] >See http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/501 >It seems Disney also has some code in Squeak, which might make it more >difficult. >It might be useful to contact the Squeak people. >Cheers, >Carl From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Mar 17 08:40:16 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed Mar 17 08:40:20 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: squeak Message-ID: <0HUQ00GQE3BHX2@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Thought I'd forward this on to here. -----Original Message----- From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 8:29 AM To: 'Bert Freudenberg'; 'debian-edu@lists.debian.org' Subject: RE: squeak > > There is a lot of collected license information on the Squeak Wiki: > > "Squeak-L" > http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/159 >From that cite: """ It surprises many that "Open Source" has been given a very specific and stringent definition. There have been efforts to make this apply to "open source" in lower case, too. Apparently, Squeak is not "Open Source", and there is disagreement on whether it is "open source". Squeak Central does consider Squeak to be "open source", however, and pretty much everyone agrees that Squeak-L meets the spirit of the Open Source movement (which it predates by many years). """ Neither am I a lawyer, and neither do I wish to get into the fine print of licensing issues. But I am apparently not "pretty much everyone". Because what I can say without hesitation is that I do not see in Squeak a spirit and a history compatible with the *spirit* of debian. Understanding that Squeak has the perfect right to have its own spirit, its own community, and its own Squeak centric license, sensibilities, whatever. Which I do not argue against. Or make any accusations against. I would have no problem myself being part of that community, if that is where my interests led me. But, bottom line, I think Squeak's view is too Squeak-centric, to be compatible with a true free software and open source view ala debian. Which to me, from a technology point of view, emphasizes the advantages of technologies than can cooperate and leverage from each other. Squeak is a technology unto itself, with no goal or pretense to work cooperatively with any other technology. In that most important sense, it is closed. And incompatible with the *spirit* of free and open source, at least as I happen to understand and experience that spirit. Art From brian at macnevin.net Thu Mar 18 21:30:44 2004 From: brian at macnevin.net (BJ MacNevin) Date: Thu Mar 18 21:30:49 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Network-safe Python Install for school use? References: <0HUQ00GQE3BHX2@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <001001c40d5a$2f5d06e0$89ada843@laptop> WHEW. Finally head from my school district's IT dept. regarding the possibility of installing Python for kids to learn programming on. They are VERY resistant to this. I am amazed. Their issues now: Python would allow some "smart studnet" to mess with the network (microsoft networking). My response: can't I install a Python that has any networking removed? Any ideas? I'm frustrated beyond belief at my district's rigidity here. Thanks! BJ MacNevin From stephen at abr.com.au Thu Mar 18 22:40:50 2004 From: stephen at abr.com.au (Stephen Thorne) Date: Thu Mar 18 22:40:58 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Network-safe Python Install for school use? In-Reply-To: <001001c40d5a$2f5d06e0$89ada843@laptop> References: <0HUQ00GQE3BHX2@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <001001c40d5a$2f5d06e0$89ada843@laptop> Message-ID: <20040319134050.339fe156.stephen@abr.com.au> On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:30:44 -0800 "BJ MacNevin" wrote: > WHEW. Finally head from my school district's IT dept. regarding the > possibility of installing Python for kids to learn programming on. > They are VERY resistant to this. I am amazed. > > Their issues now: Python would allow some "smart studnet" to mess with > the network (microsoft networking). > > My response: can't I install a Python that has any networking removed? > > Any ideas? I'm frustrated beyond belief at my district's rigidity > here. I'm tempted to say that removing the 'socket' library should be enough to foil the plans of a moderately smart student, but an extremely smart student could also pull a stunt like using dl.open to access the winsock dll directly. That said, I'm not sure 'networking removed' would accomplish anything substantial, the thing you need to 'protect' the network from are a) sniffers and b) modification of networking settings. Having a student able to make arbitary connections on the network isn't nearly as dangerous as the other two. Stephen Thorne. From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Thu Mar 18 23:05:07 2004 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Thu Mar 18 23:10:57 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Network-safe Python Install for school use? References: <0HUQ00GQE3BHX2@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <001001c40d5a$2f5d06e0$89ada843@laptop> Message-ID: <00bf01c40d67$5e007f60$6501a8c0@vaio> > Their issues now: Python would allow some "smart studnet" to mess with the > network (microsoft networking). A. If the students are that 'smart' they should be encouraged not obstructed in their learning. B. If they are they are that 'smart' I am sure they can kind find all kinds of way to screw up the school's windows machines without Python. C. Call their obtrustive bluff abnd ask the IT department to be much more specific abut what exactly they are afraid of. Then together you can quickly find a suitable solution. D. One such solution might be to install Linux on a cheap old machine asap, and let them use that immediately as a 'safe' stand-alone progamming testbed. E. The safest way to 'remove' networking is to unplug the machine in question. F. If the IT departmetn know their stuff shey shodl be able to handle it by managing permissions. Permission control is another really good reason to install Linux and use that for python programming. good luck - Jason From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Mar 19 01:39:24 2004 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Mar 19 04:39:46 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Network-safe Python Install for school use? In-Reply-To: <001001c40d5a$2f5d06e0$89ada843@laptop> References: <0HUQ00GQE3BHX2@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <001001c40d5a$2f5d06e0$89ada843@laptop> Message-ID: <200403190139.24471.urnerk@qwest.net> On Thursday 18 March 2004 09:30 pm, BJ MacNevin wrote: > > Any ideas? I'm frustrated beyond belief at my district's rigidity here. > > Thanks! > > BJ MacNevin Sounds rigid indeed. My daughter's public school has a computer lab with Python installed on every machine (Windows). But I'm not sure if they're networked, probably not. If they're worried about Python, is there any programming language they're not worried about (e.g. Java?). If so, what's the reasoning? Why pick on Python? Or maybe they just aren't into programming, period, because it's so "dangerous". Kirby From kent37 at tds.net Fri Mar 19 17:24:15 2004 From: kent37 at tds.net (Kent Johnson) Date: Fri Mar 19 17:24:25 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Network-safe Python Install for school use? Message-ID: <200403192224.i2JMOFBt009261@outbound3.mail.tds.net> I don't have any answers but you sure have my sympathy. I proposed to teach Python in a local adult-ed course in the high school computer lab. The sys admin basically freaked out, said NO, then avoided me. He wouldn't answer my phone messages or emails; the only way I was able to have a conversation with him at all was by camping out at his office waiting for him to show up. And this is in a school that already teaches Java and C++ programming! As far as I can figure it out, his thinking was something like this (I'm not kidding...) Python is open source Linux is open source Linux is an operating system Therefore Python is an operating system. Some guy wants to replace the operating system on all my computers so he can teach his course. No way!! Oh, I didn't help any by mentioning that I use a Dvorak keyboard layout and asking if that was OK...his conclusion was that I wanted to replace all the PHYSICAL keyboards with something else!!! I'm not kidding, this really happened to me! I finally gave up, I'm working with a different school district to offer the course there. Good luck! Kent > > From: "BJ MacNevin" > Date: 2004/03/18 Thu PM 09:30:44 EST > To: > Subject: [Edu-sig] Network-safe Python Install for school use? > > WHEW. Finally head from my school district's IT dept. regarding the > possibility of installing Python for kids to learn programming on. They are > VERY resistant to this. I am amazed. > > Their issues now: Python would allow some "smart studnet" to mess with the > network (microsoft networking). > > My response: can't I install a Python that has any networking removed? > > Any ideas? I'm frustrated beyond belief at my district's rigidity here. > > Thanks! > > BJ MacNevin > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Fri Mar 19 21:10:35 2004 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Fri Mar 19 21:10:57 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Network-safe Python Install for school use? References: <0HUQ00GQE3BHX2@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <001001c40d5a$2f5d06e0$89ada843@laptop> Message-ID: <000b01c40e20$88ad0800$6501a8c0@vaio> > Their issues now: Python would allow some "smart studnet" to mess with the > network (microsoft networking). Btw, you did not mention of any part of the school network is connected to the Internet. I assume it is. If so your IT department should prbably be *much* more worried about the latest virus attacking standard Microsoft tools [IE, Outlook, Media Player] than about any Python installations Here's a quick article on it: http://informationweek.securitypipeline.com/news/18400836 - Jason From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Mar 20 09:35:31 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Mar 20 09:35:35 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Network-safe Python Install for school use? Message-ID: <0HUV00LA8PUO03@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> BJ writes - >WHEW. Finally head from my school district's IT dept. regarding the >possibility of installing Python for kids to learn programming on. They are >VERY resistant to this. I am amazed. The LiveCD route might provide at least a partial solution. It is plausible to me that a smart kid could do more network damage from a booted Linux LiveCD than from a hard drive install. But I suspect the perception is different, and as a practical matter, one might meet with far less resistance. http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php?showonly=&sort=Purpose lists over 10 available LiveCD distros whose main purpose is educational. I suspect most, if not all, include a Python distribution. But I doubt if any are ideally configured for what one might want to use as a basis for teaching Python - IDLE, pygame, whatever else, etc. There is, for example, a Lisp resource kit in the educational category: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/lisp-res-kit/ I am surprised that nothing of the sort has emerged from the Python community. My own efforts to spark interest in such a project have met with luke warm response. But I might not be the right guy to be trying to organize a community effort. Art From kent37 at tds.net Sat Mar 20 09:57:32 2004 From: kent37 at tds.net (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat Mar 20 09:57:38 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Network-safe Python Install for school use? In-Reply-To: <0HUV00LA8PUO03@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0HUV00LA8PUO03@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Art, At first glance LiveCD is an interesting solution. But the problem with it is that I want to be teaching (and learning) Python, not Linux. I don't think it will work to take a student whose background is in Windows, throw him/her on a Linux box and say, "Let's write some Python!" I think building a standalone Python CD that will run on Windows is more likely to work for me. Then at least I can tell the sysadmin that I'm not going to install anything on the PC. Kent At 9:35 AM -0500 3/20/04, Arthur wrote: >BJ writes - > >>WHEW. Finally head from my school district's IT dept. regarding the >>possibility of installing Python for kids to learn programming on. They are >>VERY resistant to this. I am amazed. > >The LiveCD route might provide at least a partial solution. It is plausible >to me that a smart kid could do more network damage from a booted Linux >LiveCD than from a hard drive install. But I suspect the perception is >different, and as a practical matter, one might meet with far less >resistance. > >http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php?showonly=&sort=Purpose > >lists over 10 available LiveCD distros whose main purpose is educational. > >I suspect most, if not all, include a Python distribution. But I doubt if >any are ideally configured for what one might want to use as a basis for >teaching Python - IDLE, pygame, whatever else, etc. > >There is, for example, a Lisp resource kit in the educational category: > >http://www.common-lisp.net/project/lisp-res-kit/ > >I am surprised that nothing of the sort has emerged from the Python >community. My own efforts to spark interest in such a project have met with >luke warm response. But I might not be the right guy to be trying to >organize a community effort. > > >Art > > >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig -- Kent S Johnson http://www.kentsjohnson.com From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Mar 20 10:22:26 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Mar 20 10:22:29 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Network-safe Python Install for school use? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0HUV0061DS1DDL@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > > Art, > > At first glance LiveCD is an interesting solution. But the problem > with it is that I want to be teaching (and learning) Python, not > Linux. I don't think it will work to take a student whose background > is in Windows, throw him/her on a Linux box and say, "Let's write > some Python!" Are you sure? The beauty of a focused LiveCD is that the desktop can be configured specifically to the targeted task. One icon. Push it. IDLE fires up. In the simplest case. But in any case it is all graphical and should not seem tremendously unfamiliar. In short, I think the fact that you can be working from a focused, uncomplicated, custom graphical desktop is a plus, not a negative. The issue that I see is a way of saving one's work. Mounting the Windows drive in an appropriate spot. I frankly am not far enough into it to understand what the possibilities are here. Art > From brian at macnevin.net Sun Mar 21 14:10:36 2004 From: brian at macnevin.net (BJ MacNevin) Date: Sun Mar 21 14:10:41 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Network-safe Python Install for school use? Thanks for suggestions! References: <0HUV0061DS1DDL@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <001301c40f78$314b5810$89ada843@laptop> Thanks everyone for your suggestions in this frustrating experience. I have decided that since I can get more flies with honey than I can with vinegar (which I hate, but okay, I gotta' do it), I'll try the following a route the progressively brings question to their technical prowess as a last resort: 1) Inquire from them the actual make-up of the district's networking software so that -- just fo rmy own peace of mind -- I can figure out what things they *should* be able to do. 2) Inquire from my district's IT department what, specifically, are the things that Python will allow students to access on the network that they fear. 3) Inquire from the IT department if they would still worry about things with the networking removed from Python. 4) Inquire from them the structure of permissions used on the district network. 5) Ask them about making the computers CD-ROM-bootable (right now CD-ROM booting is not enabled) to allow a liveCD (though this might still be able to access the network, I guess). Well, it's a start and it's not really a decision or a "path" I guess... but at least it is a start to getting some kind of answers. Thanks again, BJ MacNevin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur" To: "'Kent Johnson'" Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 7:22 AM Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] re: Network-safe Python Install for school use? > > > > Art, > > > > At first glance LiveCD is an interesting solution. But the problem > > with it is that I want to be teaching (and learning) Python, not > > Linux. I don't think it will work to take a student whose background > > is in Windows, throw him/her on a Linux box and say, "Let's write > > some Python!" > > Are you sure? The beauty of a focused LiveCD is that the desktop can be > configured specifically to the targeted task. One icon. Push it. IDLE > fires up. In the simplest case. But in any case it is all graphical and > should not seem tremendously unfamiliar. > > In short, I think the fact that you can be working from a focused, > uncomplicated, custom graphical desktop is a plus, not a negative. > > The issue that I see is a way of saving one's work. Mounting the Windows > drive in an appropriate spot. I frankly am not far enough into it to > understand what the possibilities are here. > > Art > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > From stephen at abr.com.au Sun Mar 21 17:40:13 2004 From: stephen at abr.com.au (Stephen Thorne) Date: Sun Mar 21 17:40:20 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Network-safe Python Install for school use? In-Reply-To: <0HUV0061DS1DDL@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0HUV0061DS1DDL@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20040322084013.1e3d4933.stephen@abr.com.au> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:22:26 -0500 Arthur wrote: > > > > Art, > > > > At first glance LiveCD is an interesting solution. But the problem > > with it is that I want to be teaching (and learning) Python, not > > Linux. I don't think it will work to take a student whose background > > is in Windows, throw him/her on a Linux box and say, "Let's write > > some Python!" > > Are you sure? The beauty of a focused LiveCD is that the desktop can > be configured specifically to the targeted task. One icon. Push it. > IDLE fires up. In the simplest case. But in any case it is all > graphical and should not seem tremendously unfamiliar. > > In short, I think the fact that you can be working from a focused, > uncomplicated, custom graphical desktop is a plus, not a negative. > > The issue that I see is a way of saving one's work. Mounting the > Windows drive in an appropriate spot. I frankly am not far enough > into it to understand what the possibilities are here. I've taught python using a custom remastered Knoppix CD. We found it very successful, and we were capable of doing things with linux on the desktop that we couldn't possibly do with windows without a large development budget and a lot of system-maintenance: - start+stop xlockmore with a blank screensaver on all machines. - start an arbitary application on all machines (during the session, idle-python, after the session, bzFlag ;) - remotly remove all icons on the desktop/menu - backup the contents of the directory the students were using to save their work on a 5-minute basis. (This was a lesson learnt the hard way, when removing icons, we removed the work-folder. *whoops*) Stephen Thorne. From jason.cunliffe at verizon.net Sun Mar 21 18:30:08 2004 From: jason.cunliffe at verizon.net (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Mar 21 18:31:05 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Network-safe Python Install for school use? Thanks forsuggestions! References: <0HUV0061DS1DDL@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <001301c40f78$314b5810$89ada843@laptop> Message-ID: <006e01c40f9c$73077580$6501a8c0@vaio> That all sounds good. But I question this one: > 3) Inquire from the IT department if they would still worry about things > with the networking removed from Python. 'Removing networking from Python' seems to me a bad idea. Perhaps *instead* get your IT dept. to focus on mapping out the user/logins they will use for students so that there is accountability, regardless of any languages tools employed. This is surely their job and will help focus on useful network-oriented solutions not fear/blame. Combined with machine's IP address, they should be able to prevent any normal damage. btw, do consider linksys routers. These are nice cheap firewall devices which mighty be helpful for all concerned. Handy if you need to isolate a set of machines quickly/safely. These are typically $50-$100 and used for connecting small LANs to DSL/Cable modems. But they are also excellent as stand-alone boxes which can be used for defining and protecting small networks or sections of them. Administration is done remotely via web browser and sysadmin password login to change the box config settings. This includes setting machine numbers and subnets, assigning filters to protect/enable various protocols etc. These boxes will not complicate the district-wide software settings, but can be used to focus and manage network security needs in a very direct small-is-beautiful manner. Plus you get some flashing panel lights you can see a-at-glance whose cooking. Very easy to turn features on or off. [see link below] Good tech and support from a good company at reasonable prices. Wired or wire-less both apply. http://www.linksys.com/ http://www.linksys.com/support/TechSupport.asp for example see advanced features http://www.linksys.com/support/support.asp?spid=58#adv The most famous model is BEFSR41. Here is the manual for the wireless model. ftp://ftp.linksys.com/pdf/befsr41w_ug.pdf But as you'll see there are 8-port versions and more. hth & good luck - Jason From simon at arrowtheory.com Sun Mar 21 18:27:16 2004 From: simon at arrowtheory.com (Simon Burton) Date: Sun Mar 21 18:37:22 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Network-safe Python Install for school use? In-Reply-To: <0HUV00LA8PUO03@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0HUV00LA8PUO03@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20040322102716.1f6caa40.simon@arrowtheory.com> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:35:31 -0500 Arthur wrote: > The LiveCD route might provide at least a partial solution. It is plausible > to me that a smart kid could do more network damage from a booted Linux > LiveCD than from a hard drive install. But I suspect the perception is > different, and as a practical matter, one might meet with far less > resistance. > .... > I am surprised that nothing of the sort has emerged from the Python > community. My own efforts to spark interest in such a project have met with > luke warm response. But I might not be the right guy to be trying to > organize a community effort. > > > Art > I think it's a good idea too. I'm interested in teaching multimedia/game programming with python, and installing all those goodies on a room of windows machines would be a pain. Still, there is the question of homework: what are the students expected to do? However, in terms of getting them hooked in the first place a liveCD sounds really good.. Simon. -- Simon Burton, B.Sc. Licensed PO Box 8066 ANU Canberra 2601 Australia Ph. 61 02 6249 6940 http://arrowtheory.com From sandysj at juno.com Mon Mar 22 19:54:44 2004 From: sandysj at juno.com (Jeff Sandys) Date: Mon Mar 22 19:56:47 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Network-safe Python Install for school use? Message-ID: <405F8AD4.8BE05A84@juno.com> It is easy to make a cd that will run Pyhon on Windows without installation. Just copy the complete Python directory from a Windows computer with Python installed, AND the Python dll. Thanks, Jeff Sandys > Art, > > At first glance LiveCD is an interesting solution. But the problem > with it is that I want to be teaching (and learning) Python, not > Linux. I don't think it will work to take a student whose background > is in Windows, throw him/her on a Linux box and say, "Let's write > some Python!" > > I think building a standalone Python CD that will run on Windows is > more likely to work for me. Then at least I can tell the sysadmin > that I'm not going to install anything on the PC. > > Kent From mmclay at comcast.net Tue Mar 23 00:48:47 2004 From: mmclay at comcast.net (Michael McLay) Date: Tue Mar 23 00:27:32 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Network-safe Python Install for school use? In-Reply-To: <20040322084013.1e3d4933.stephen@abr.com.au> References: <0HUV0061DS1DDL@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20040322084013.1e3d4933.stephen@abr.com.au> Message-ID: <200403230048.47280.mmclay@comcast.net> Is the custom Knoppix CD available? Your description suggests that it would be a good starting point for a edu-sig distribution. On Sunday 21 March 2004 5:40 pm, Stephen Thorne wrote: > I've taught python using a custom remastered Knoppix CD. We found it > very successful, and we were capable of doing things with linux > on the desktop that we couldn't possibly do with windows without a large > development budget and a lot of system-maintenance: > > - start+stop xlockmore with a blank screensaver on all machines. > - start an arbitary application on all machines (during the session, > idle-python, after the session, bzFlag ;) > - remotly remove all icons on the desktop/menu > - backup the contents of the directory the students were using to save > their work on a 5-minute basis. (This was a lesson learnt the hard way, > when removing icons, we removed the work-folder. *whoops*) From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Mar 30 08:37:08 2004 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Mar 30 08:43:15 2004 Subject: [Edu-sig] Pyro (Python robotics) site Message-ID: <0HVE005AK5TT6V@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I mentioned to some folks at PyCon that I would post up the site for the Pyro Python Robotics project. Which I hereby so do: http://pyrorobotics.org Art