From cben at users.sf.net Fri Apr 1 01:53:45 2005 From: cben at users.sf.net (Beni Cherniavsky) Date: Fri Apr 1 01:53:58 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Best approach to teaching OOP and graphics In-Reply-To: <73e677429434401dc7d8041d4cf7a256@livingcode.org> References: <0IDY003L5U7UFF@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <42472DE8.20000@wartburg.edu> <73e677429434401dc7d8041d4cf7a256@livingcode.org> Message-ID: <424C8D89.2050300@users.sf.net> Dethe Elza wrote: > On 27-Mar-05, at 2:04 PM, John Zelle wrote: > >> There is a good reason for these traditional guidelines, that is to >> make the abstraction you are defining independent of its >> implementation. Down the road, I might want to change the internal >> representation of color, or remove or rename the color instance >> variable. If existing code exploits this internal feature of a class, >> then changing the implementation may break code that uses it. So this >> is bad design --- in most languages. >> >> And yet, this is common in Python. Why? Because of Python's dynamic >> nature I can still change the implementation should I choose to and I >> can preserve the old abstraction (interface) using getAttr and setAttr >> magic. I can't do that in most other languages, which is why they tend >> to use getter and setter methods. > > > Or more recently (and cleanly) by using properties (new style classes > only). > > The *only* reason that other languages promote the use of method calls > over direct property access is because they don't have properties. > Without properties it is very > difficult to go in and modify the implementation without changing the > interface if you start by using attributes, but in Python that problem > just doesn't exist. > I will dare a stronger formulation: Littering trivial getters/setters is unpythonic because it is vebose and ugly. This is reason enough not to write them, whether we have properties or not. Given this axiom, Python provides properties to solve a need *resulting* from not calling getters/setters exlicitly - it is secondary. I think teaching students to actively detest code that with huge redudant repetitive piles of redudancy repeated all over is more important than teaching them any single guideline. The guidelines are tools invented for writing better code, nothing more. > There are still times when you don't want to expose attributes directly, > but getters and setters don't help you there either. For example, if > both myObj.x and myObj.y must be changed in synch to stay valid, then > they should be set via myObj.setXandY(x,y) not myObj.x = newX, myObj.y = > newY. But this is a design problem not a language problem. > myObj.xy = (x, y) Rule of thumb: use tuples where you typically change all members together. Use mutable objects (lists/dicts/objects with attrs) where you frequently change individual members. -- Beni Cherniavsky , who can only read email on weekends. From delza at livingcode.org Fri Apr 1 03:05:20 2005 From: delza at livingcode.org (Dethe Elza) Date: Fri Apr 1 03:05:21 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Best approach to teaching OOP and graphics In-Reply-To: <424C8D89.2050300@users.sf.net> References: <0IDY003L5U7UFF@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <42472DE8.20000@wartburg.edu> <73e677429434401dc7d8041d4cf7a256@livingcode.org> <424C8D89.2050300@users.sf.net> Message-ID: <4ef635f0e12d35276a4fcd60f93a46c4@livingcode.org> On 31-Mar-05, at 3:53 PM, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: >> There are still times when you don't want to expose attributes >> directly, but getters and setters don't help you there either. For >> example, if both myObj.x and myObj.y must be changed in synch to stay >> valid, then they should be set via myObj.setXandY(x,y) not myObj.x = >> newX, myObj.y = newY. But this is a design problem not a language >> problem. > myObj.xy = (x, y) > > Rule of thumb: use tuples where you typically change all members > together. Use mutable objects (lists/dicts/objects with attrs) where > you frequently change individual members. Good point. Python solves another design problem. Is there anything it can't do? --Dethe I can't watch television without praying for nuclear holocaust. --Bill Hicks -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20050331/153c0f9b/smime.bin From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 1 15:59:49 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 1 16:00:09 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Best approach to teaching OOP and graphics In-Reply-To: <424C8D89.2050300@users.sf.net> Message-ID: <0IE900J4MTKSRL@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Beni Cherniavsky > > I think teaching students to actively detest code that with huge redudant > repetitive piles of redudancy repeated all over is more important than > teaching them any single guideline. > Rule of thumb: use tuples where you typically change all members together. > Use mutable objects (lists/dicts/objects with attrs) where you frequently > change individual members. The tuple/list distinction is a recurring question on python-list - people trying to understand in what way the 2 structures are not redundant. This comes up repeatedly ;) I find your formulation more satisfying than anything I've come a cross before. Art From rsenra at acm.org Sat Apr 2 02:44:34 2005 From: rsenra at acm.org (Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra) Date: Sat Apr 2 02:41:19 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: More on intro to Python (today's 3 hr training) In-Reply-To: References: <7528bcdd050329090428603d87@mail.gmail.com> <20050329185459.7DE521E400C@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20050401214434.1f4f430a@Goku> [ Andr? Roberge ] ----------------------------------------------- | you don't teach introductory numerical analysis | at the same time as | you teach introductory computer programming | at the same time as | you teach introductory calculus | at the same time as .... | | (exception: many learn most of the useful math stuff in their physics | class first, at least in North America.) If it serves as consolation, this is taught the same way in Brazilian Engineering/CS schools. In the very first physics class you'll get a survival derivative table and use it, two/three months later (*after* the first exams) you will learn all about in Calculus 101. cheers, Rod Senra -- ,_ | ) Rodrigo Senra |(______ ----------------------------------------------- _( (|__|] GPr Sistemas http://www.gpr.com.br _ | (|___|] Blog http://rodsenra.blogspot.com ___ (|__|] IC - Unicamp http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 L___(|_|] ----------------------------------------------- From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 3 14:07:49 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 3 14:07:55 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: RFS: python-visual - VPython 3D scientific visualization library Message-ID: <0IED009BSDP8M5@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Floris Bruynooghe has created a VPython Debian distribution and is in process of attempting to have it accepted as "official" Debian package. Not being familiar with the process I am having trouble following the dialogue - "sponsorship" vs. "adoption", etc. Obviously I would like to see Floris successful. This would, for example, make is possible to see VPython available in the ubuntu "universe" of packages. A very good thing, IMO. Can anyone here help sort this out? Art -----Original Message----- From: Jonas Smedegaard [mailto:dr@jones.dk] Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 5:33 AM To: Floris Bruynooghe Cc: debian-edu@lists.debian.org; 112118@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: RFS: python-visual - VPython 3D scientific visualization library -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02-04-2005 18:14, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > I have been packaging VPython for some time now and would like to get > it into the main Debian archive. There has been an ITP for this way > back in September 2001 (#112118) which was retitled to RFP in December > 2002 due to nothing happening with it. > Hopefully I tempted someone to sponsor this package. Are you requesting sponsorship or adoption of the package? I have had a look at the package, and find your packaging very well done. I'd like to adopt it if that's ok with you. I do not, however, want to sponsor your package as part of you becoming a Debian Developer (I _do_ want more Debian developers, I just don't believe in the current package sponsoring logic). If you later become a Debian Developer and want to take over official maintainance of it for Debian, I'd be happy to hand it back to you. So please tell me if it's fine with you that I adopt the package for official Debian maintainance. Regards, - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ - Enden er n?r: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCT7hNn7DbMsAkQLgRAtnhAKCWOmjMPJf9P67HQX39hi/z6MnfuACfcE6X 7SWYbckx0rSu6zR5BEtsom0= =ojYH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gvanrossum at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 18:31:19 2005 From: gvanrossum at gmail.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Sun Apr 3 18:31:33 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: RFS: python-visual - VPython 3D scientific visualization library In-Reply-To: <0IED009BSDP8M5@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IED009BSDP8M5@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Doesn't look to me like anything needs to be done -- the way I understand the dialog, adoption appears enough to be enough to get the package into Debian. Sponsorship would only be required to make Floris a Debian developer, which isn't necessary; he can just send package updates to Jonas. On Apr 3, 2005 4:07 AM, Arthur wrote: > > Floris Bruynooghe has created a VPython Debian distribution and is in > process of attempting to have it accepted as "official" Debian package. > > Not being familiar with the process I am having trouble following the > dialogue - "sponsorship" vs. "adoption", etc. > > Obviously I would like to see Floris successful. This would, for example, > make is possible to see VPython available in the ubuntu "universe" of > packages. A very good thing, IMO. > > Can anyone here help sort this out? > > Art > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonas Smedegaard [mailto:dr@jones.dk] > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 5:33 AM > To: Floris Bruynooghe > Cc: debian-edu@lists.debian.org; 112118@bugs.debian.org > Subject: Re: RFS: python-visual - VPython 3D scientific visualization > library > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 02-04-2005 18:14, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > > > I have been packaging VPython for some time now and would like to get > > it into the main Debian archive. There has been an ITP for this way > > back in September 2001 (#112118) which was retitled to RFP in December > > 2002 due to nothing happening with it. > > > Hopefully I tempted someone to sponsor this package. > > Are you requesting sponsorship or adoption of the package? > > I have had a look at the package, and find your packaging very well > done. I'd like to adopt it if that's ok with you. > > I do not, however, want to sponsor your package as part of you becoming > a Debian Developer (I _do_ want more Debian developers, I just don't > believe in the current package sponsoring logic). > > If you later become a Debian Developer and want to take over official > maintainance of it for Debian, I'd be happy to hand it back to you. > > So please tell me if it's fine with you that I adopt the package for > official Debian maintainance. > > Regards, > > - Jonas > > - -- > * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt > * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ > > - Enden er n?r: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFCT7hNn7DbMsAkQLgRAtnhAKCWOmjMPJf9P67HQX39hi/z6MnfuACfcE6X > 7SWYbckx0rSu6zR5BEtsom0= > =ojYH > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From john.zelle at wartburg.edu Sun Apr 3 17:44:42 2005 From: john.zelle at wartburg.edu (John Zelle) Date: Sun Apr 3 18:45:02 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: RFS: python-visual - VPython 3D scientific visualization library In-Reply-To: <0IED009BSDP8M5@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IED009BSDP8M5@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <42500F6A.6040006@wartburg.edu> Arthur wrote: > Floris Bruynooghe has created a VPython Debian distribution and is in > process of attempting to have it accepted as "official" Debian package. > > Not being familiar with the process I am having trouble following the > dialogue - "sponsorship" vs. "adoption", etc. > > Obviously I would like to see Floris successful. This would, for example, > make is possible to see VPython available in the ubuntu "universe" of > packages. A very good thing, IMO. > I agree. As a dedicated Debian and VPython user, I'd also like to see this happen. > Can anyone here help sort this out? > To get a package into Debian, one must either be a Debian developer, or find a developer willing to "sponsor" the package. In the case of a sponsor, the sponsor is the one who verifys, signs, and uploads the package to the Debian distribution, however, the original packager (Floris in this case) is tagged as the maintainer of the package. There is something more to sponsorship than uploading packages, however. Having one's package sponsored is also a way of showing that one is capable of contributing to Debian, and thus might later be considered as a developer. In order to become an actual developer, you need to have an advocate who is a current developer. The sponsorship practice can be part of mentoring and eventually advocacy as a pathway to becoming a full-fledged Debian developer. If I read the following message correctly, Jonas is volunteering to take over maintenance of the VPython package, rather than sponsoring it. That means he would upload it and also be listed as the maintainer, and hence be responsible for future revision and maintainence of the package. I don't know what his reasoning is exactly, but he appears not to want any part of the sponsorship thing. Does that answer your question? --John > Art > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonas Smedegaard [mailto:dr@jones.dk] > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 5:33 AM > To: Floris Bruynooghe > Cc: debian-edu@lists.debian.org; 112118@bugs.debian.org > Subject: Re: RFS: python-visual - VPython 3D scientific visualization > library > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 02-04-2005 18:14, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > > >>I have been packaging VPython for some time now and would like to get >>it into the main Debian archive. There has been an ITP for this way >>back in September 2001 (#112118) which was retitled to RFP in December >>2002 due to nothing happening with it. > > >>Hopefully I tempted someone to sponsor this package. > > > Are you requesting sponsorship or adoption of the package? > > > I have had a look at the package, and find your packaging very well > done. I'd like to adopt it if that's ok with you. > > I do not, however, want to sponsor your package as part of you becoming > a Debian Developer (I _do_ want more Debian developers, I just don't > believe in the current package sponsoring logic). > > > If you later become a Debian Developer and want to take over official > maintainance of it for Debian, I'd be happy to hand it back to you. > > > So please tell me if it's fine with you that I adopt the package for > official Debian maintainance. > > > Regards, > > - Jonas > > - -- > * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt > * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ > > - Enden er n?r: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFCT7hNn7DbMsAkQLgRAtnhAKCWOmjMPJf9P67HQX39hi/z6MnfuACfcE6X > 7SWYbckx0rSu6zR5BEtsom0= > =ojYH > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > -- John M. Zelle, Ph.D. Wartburg College Professor of Computer Science Waverly, IA john.zelle@wartburg.edu (319) 352-8360 From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Apr 4 04:28:46 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Apr 4 04:28:52 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: RFS: python-visual - VPython 3D scientificvisualization library In-Reply-To: <42500F6A.6040006@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: <0IEE002VJHK242@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: John Zelle [mailto:john.zelle@wartburg.edu] > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 11:45 AM > To: Arthur > > Does that answer your question? It does - though I still don't fully understand it ;) Guido concludes that the reaction Floris is getting is favorable - at least as to getting his VPython distribution "official" status. I will continue to follow the discussion on the debian-edu list, see what develops, and post anything interesting/conclusive up to here. Art From andre.roberge at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 04:47:50 2005 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Roberge?=) Date: Sat Apr 9 04:48:01 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computing derivative Message-ID: For that were interested in the discussion about computing derivatives numerically using Python, I have posted a short description *including pictures* at http://aroberge.blogspot.com/. Enjoy! Andr? From janc13 at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 05:15:31 2005 From: janc13 at gmail.com (JanC) Date: Sat Apr 9 05:15:34 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: RFS: python-visual - VPython 3D scientific visualization library In-Reply-To: <0IED009BSDP8M5@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IED009BSDP8M5@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <984838bf0504082015138288c9@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 3, 2005 2:07 PM, Arthur wrote: > Floris Bruynooghe has created a VPython Debian distribution and is in > process of attempting to have it accepted as "official" Debian package. > Obviously I would like to see Floris successful. This would, for example, > make is possible to see VPython available in the ubuntu "universe" of > packages. A very good thing, IMO. I'm not 100% sure, but AFAIK Ubuntu doens't _require_ the package to be in Debian before they accept it? You might ask on the ubuntu-devel mailing list or on the #ubuntu-motu channel on the Freenode IRC network (MOTU = Master Of The Universe, the 'title' given to the maintainers of universe). Also remember Ubuntu Hoary has python 2.4 as the default version, while Debian still uses 2.3 AFAIK. -- JanC From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Apr 9 19:36:01 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Apr 9 19:36:06 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Computing derivative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050409173604.AF3151E4003@bag.python.org> Thanks. Always good to find another Python blog. The calc thread is pretty interesting to me -- comes up on edu-sig in various guises from time to time. Before this, we looked at a derivative class with a more symbolic algebra slant: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2004-December/004322.html Kirby > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Andr? Roberge > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 7:48 PM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] Computing derivative > > For that were interested in the discussion about computing derivatives > numerically using Python, I have posted a short description *including > pictures* at http://aroberge.blogspot.com/. > > Enjoy! > > Andr? > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Apr 9 20:39:42 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Apr 9 20:39:46 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E Message-ID: <20050409183945.37B251E4003@bag.python.org> So I'm thinking more about CP4E and how that might look in the early grades. What if you're not in math class, not in a CS or preCS class of any kind. Still, you might get mileage out of Python. Scenario: what a lot of kids do in early grades is memorize some states and capitals. In the USA, that often involves the 50 states, maybe the odd protectorate or whatever. In the EU, I imagine it's similar. In any case, geography begets data structures. We could do this stuff with dictionaries. Fifth grade assignment: use Google or other search engine to find some data file containing 50 US states and their capitals; download to your local drive; write a Python program to snarf this data into a dictionary. Write a short quiz loop to ask yourself the capitals. Could be sixth grade, whatever. The point is: we're always dealing with alphanumeric data, in structures. Yes, this is how to introduce XML as well, but I'm not suggesting we should only care about that. Python is blessed with VHLL data structures, and mixing them (a list of dictionaries of tuples) etc. is completely logical -- don't need to get with the Perl references and pointers way of thinking (because that's how you're thinking anyway). Indexing into a list with an integer, or into a mapping with a key word, is what I'd call a "paradigm academic experience" -- so why not do it in Python? Following my own advice (5th grade assignment): http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/dbork/data/USRegionState.daml http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763765.html As the teacher, I'd probably just parse through either of these to generate a very simple plaintext version, 2-column e.g. state capital state capital ... Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Apr 9 20:49:06 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Apr 9 20:49:10 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E (continued) Message-ID: <20050409184908.A32D81E4003@bag.python.org> Projected in front of class (teacher explaining her process for grabbing cities and states, making a simple plaintext file for later reuse): >>> import urllib2 >>> fo = urllib2.urlopen( "http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/dbork/data/USRegionState.daml") >>> fo # <-- a file-like object > >>> for i in fo: # grab the strings we'll need to parse if '>> fo.close() >>> def getcities(): # snip off the fat cities = [] for city in allcapitals: st = city.find("#") fn = city.find('"/>') cities.append(city[st+1:fn]) return cities >>> def getcitystate(): # separate city and state citystate=[] global cities for e in cities: city = e[:-2] state = e[-2:] citystate.append((city,state)) return citystate >>> cs = getcitystate() >>> cs [('montgomery', 'al'), ('juneau', 'ak'), ('phoenix', 'az'), ('littlerock', 'ar'), ('sacramento', 'ca'), ('denver', 'co'), ('hartford', 'ct'), ('washington', 'dc'), ('dover', 'de'), ('tallahassee', 'fl'), ('atlanta', 'ga'), ('honolulu', 'hi'), ('boise', 'id'), ('springfield', 'il'), ('indianapolis', 'in'), ('desmoines', 'ia'), ('topeka', 'ks'), ('frankfort', 'ky'), ('batonrouge', 'la'), ('augusta', 'me'), ('annapolis', 'md'), ('boston', 'ma'), ('lansing', 'mi'), ('stpaul', 'mn'), ('jackson', 'ms'), ('jeffersoncity', 'mo'), ('helena', 'mt'), ('lincoln', 'ne'), ('carsoncity', 'nv'), ('concord', 'nh'), ('trenton', 'nj'), ('santafe', 'nm'), ('albany', 'ny'), ('raleighdurham', 'nc'), ('bismarck', 'nd'), ('columbus', 'oh'), ('oklahomacity', 'ok'), ('salem', 'or'), ('harrisburg', 'pa'), ('providence', 'ri'), ('columbia', 'sc'), ('pierre', 'sd'), ('nashville', 'tn'), ('austin', 'tx'), ('saltlakecity', 'ut'), ('montpelier', 'vt'), ('richmond', 'va'), ('olympia', 'wa'), ('charleston', 'wv'), ('madison', 'wi'), ('cheyenne', 'wy')] >>> etc. (still have to hand-space 'jefferson city' etc. once you get your plaintext written out (hey, we humans have a role to play, why not?). Actually, this whole exercise might be fun for the kids to mess with -- I'll forward it to the police in Hillsboro as a lab activity (Red Hat 9 lab, West Precinct). We could show 'em XML parsing and regular expressions (alternative, more sophisticated ways to suck strings) in later lessons. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Apr 9 21:05:58 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Apr 9 21:06:06 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: RFS: python-visual - VPython 3D scientificvisualization library In-Reply-To: <984838bf0504082015138288c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0IEP005RK125MB@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > Behalf Of JanC > > Floris Bruynooghe has created a VPython Debian distribution and is in > > process of attempting to have it accepted as "official" Debian package. > > > Obviously I would like to see Floris successful. This would, for > example, > > make is possible to see VPython available in the ubuntu "universe" of > > packages. A very good thing, IMO. > > I'm not 100% sure, but AFAIK Ubuntu doens't _require_ the package to > be in Debian before they accept it? > > You might ask on the ubuntu-devel mailing list or on the #ubuntu-motu > channel on the Freenode IRC network (MOTU = Master Of The Universe, > the 'title' given to the maintainers of universe). Yes. What I had already done is contacted Floris to make sure he was aware of ubuntu, suggesting that the ubuntu folks might have a particular interest in seeing a well maintained Debian packaging of VPython, considering their general favorable inclinations toward Python. Turns out he is in fact a ubuntu user, and enthusiast. And he seems to imply in his response that the avenue he is pursuing was what he thought was necessary to have VPython accepted into the ubuntu universe - or at least the course of least resistance in doing so. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Apr 9 21:25:38 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Apr 9 21:25:45 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050409183945.37B251E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0IEP0052Y1YXPA@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Kirby Urner > > So I'm thinking more about CP4E and how that might look in the early > grades. > What if you're not in math class, not in a CS or preCS class of any kind. > Still, you might get mileage out of Python. > > Scenario: what a lot of kids do in early grades is memorize some states > and > capitals. They do. I did. Like geometric objects in introducing OOP, a convention is being followed. The point not being the importance of knowing, by heart, the capitals of states. The point being the importance of exercising the memorization facility. What I see in your suggestion is, once again, the power of technology in the classroom to fix what isn't broken, or in fact break what's fixed - not the opposite. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Apr 9 22:18:03 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Apr 9 22:18:07 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEP0052Y1YXPA@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050409201806.EA1BE1E4005@bag.python.org> > > Scenario: what a lot of kids do in early grades is memorize some states > > and capitals. > > They do. I did. > > Like geometric objects in introducing OOP, a convention is being followed. > The point not being the importance of knowing, by heart, the capitals of > states. The point being the importance of exercising the memorization > facility. > > What I see in your suggestion is, once again, the power of technology in > the classroom to fix what isn't broken, or in fact break what's fixed - > not the opposite. > > Art > Well, if you buy the *whole* point is exercising the memorization facility, then yes, this isn't broken, doesn't need fixing. But I think the point is to provide a whole lot of paradigm "base level" experiences which carve out a space for future growth. Being able to memorize is key, but so is being able to parse through a file -- wasn't in your childhood, but is today. I'm a kid at the Python shell. Way cool I can grab a file-like object containing a web page. Then there's this control structure called a 'loop' where you iterate through the lines, and do something with each one (perhaps ignore it). Should 5th graders know there's something called a 'control structure'? Yes. Bascially we're learning how to screen scrape and/or grep through alphanumeric data, extracting what we need and tossing the rest. That's just a basic skill now, like knowing how to fill a fountain pen, back when *that* was basic (but isn't now). I'm happy to focus on baseball scores, movies, other stuff (doesn't have to be states/capitals). The pattern will be similar: get a lot of data from the web, loop through it with whatever tools you've learned or are learning, save the results you want to keep, for later reuse. Basic basic. Except we use Python, not BASIC. Kirby >>> f = open('statecapitals.txt','wt') >>> for e in cs: f.write('%s, %s\n' % (e[0].title(), e[1].upper())) >>> f.close() Did some hand parsing on the capitals: Montgomery, AL Juneau, AK Phoenix, AZ Little Rock, AR Sacramento, CA Denver, CO Hartford, CT Washington, DC Dover, DE Tallahassee, FL Atlanta, GA Honolulu, HI Boise, ID Springfield, IL Indianapolis, IN Des Moines, IA Topeka, KS Frankfort, KY Baton Rouge, LA Augusta, ME Annapolis, MD Boston, MA Lansing, MI St Paul, MN Jackson, MS Jefferson City, MO Helena, MT Lincoln, NE Carson City, NV Concord, NH Trenton, NJ Santa Fe, NM Albany, NY Raleigh Durham, NC Bismarck, ND Columbus, OH Oklahoma City, OK Salem, OR Harrisburg, PA Providence, RI Columbia, SC Pierre, SD Nashville, TN Austin, TX Salt Lake City, UT Montpelier, VT Richmond, VA Olympia, WA Charleston, WV Madison, WI Cheyenne, WY From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 10 16:08:07 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 10 16:08:13 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEP00GK84E5S0@mta24.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEQ00B0HHWQYG@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > > Well, if you buy the *whole* point is exercising the memorization > facility, > then yes, this isn't broken, doesn't need fixing. I would admit that my opinion came to be that the memorization thing was an overemphasized skill in school. I would further admit that I think that technology has changed the landscape on this point. For someone like myself with modest memorization skills, the fact that I can't retain - in detail - say, a particular formula was once a more serious productivity issue then it could be considered now that I can Google myself to instant recall > But I think the point is to provide a whole lot of paradigm "base level" > experiences which carve out a space for future growth. Being able to > memorize is key, but so is being able to parse through a file -- wasn't in > your childhood, but is today. I cannot accept parsing a file in a programming language to be a basic skill, and think considering it so deprecates the notion of "basic skills". My own interest in technology and education at the early grades is limited to the extent to which technology might indeed be able to enhance the learning of basic skills, but don't recognize that that those skills are related in the slightest to the use of technology. And maybe therefore tend to conclude that the entry of technology has little to justify itself at that stage of the game. It's not, I don't think, that I am going out of my way to be argumentative. What you are saying here in fact touches what I consider to be the near basic nerve where I consistently get off the bus - i.e. I reject programming skills as anything near basic, and think any emphasis of such skill should be directed - out of the box - at solving real and more fundamental learning goals. And that if we conclude that such an approach is unrealistic - it might in fact be - than we should satisfy ourselves with programming for the few with an active interest and aptitude. To my ears you are making the "it is important to learn programming because it is important to learn programming" argument, which I do not or cannot accept. Especially from a programmer. Where would you place parsing through a file, versus, say, being able to read music notation - as a "basic skill" for fifth graders? Where should we be directing limited resources? This wouldn't in fact be a discussion worth having (if it is in fact worth having) were it not for the fact that it is a hard reality that things such as music programs are suffering as a result of the prioritization of "computer skills". And I keep thinking we are still digging out of some kind of mass technology bubble mentality when we can't differentiate better than that. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 10 16:40:45 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 10 16:40:52 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00B0HHWQYG@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEQ003XFJFMYK@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] >And I keep thinking we are still > digging out of some kind of mass technology bubble mentality when we can't > differentiate better than that. The related point being that I have no problem differentiating the presentation of differentiation in Python "pseudo-code" in this critique - it being the counter-example, IMO - an excellent way to illuminate a subject. There being a subject. Art From missive at hotmail.com Sun Apr 10 17:01:15 2005 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Sun Apr 10 17:01:19 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: CP4E Message-ID: >I cannot accept parsing a file in a programming language to be a basic >skill, and think considering it so deprecates the notion of "basic skills". How about instead of teaching parsing, at that (5th grade) level we might give them a state_capitols object to play with: >>>import state_capitols >>>state_capitols('NY') 'Albany' They could use that to build their quiz game. I think the idea of virtual objects and their relation to the real world is a much more basic skill. >Where would you place parsing through a file, versus, say, being able to >read music notation - as a "basic skill" for fifth graders? Where should >we >be directing limited resources? I believe the way we use computers in schools is mostly wrong. Too much unstructured "surfing" and too much use of "collage" (what used to be known as plagiarism when I was in school ;o) Can computers be used to teach the basic skills? Possibly. But I think some care must be taken to ensure that computers are not a tool to avoid learning those basic skills. Are there _new_ skills, which are becoming basic? Probably not. Abstraction has always been pretty basic. Computers may actually make it more difficult to see the abstractions... Things we see every day become real. TV is real. Some might say that things not on TV are not real :o) I feel like there is the idea that anything can be taught or learned with short videos. I feel like we are losing our creativity and imagination. Give a 3 year old a box of crayons and you have no idea what he will come up with. Give a 10 year old a PS2 and about the best that might happen is he'll find a way to cheat. >And I keep thinking we are still >digging out of some kind of mass technology bubble mentality when we can't >differentiate better than that. I think we can start by not doing things with computers because "that's what businesses are doing, and students will need these skills in order to work in those businesses." That is just silliness. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu Sun Apr 10 17:14:45 2005 From: jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu (Jordan M. Johnson) Date: Sun Apr 10 17:14:48 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00B0HHWQYG@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IEQ00B0HHWQYG@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, Arthur wrote: # It's not, I don't think, that I am going out of my way to be argumentative. # What you are saying here in fact touches what I consider to be the near # basic nerve where I consistently get off the bus - i.e. I reject programming # skills as anything near basic... # Where would you place parsing through a file, versus, say, being able to # read music notation - as a "basic skill" for fifth graders? Where should we # be directing limited resources? This resonates with my experience teaching programming to a community of 11th graders of low (grade 1 - grade 10, avg. around grade 6) reading level. One problem that many students have is a fundamental syntactic difficulty: it takes a lot of work and reminders to get them to the point where they would see the difference--ANY difference--between f.write(...) and f write(...) or similar constructs and remember to use the right notation each time (or understand the interpreter's error messages). So I'd be concerned that the syntactic (not to mention lexical--what do all these function names mean?) baggage would get in the way of the more basic requirement of teaching and learning *geography*. Traditional teaching methods already emphasize linguistic skills heavily, and especially considering that geography affords some opportunities for visual learning, I wouldn't abandon those in favor of adding extra text-handling requirements. I should add that I *do* believe there are some benefits to my students from focused work on programming: - I conjecture that the practice needed to get past the syntactic barriers (like the f.write() example above) involved in reading and writing code will carry over to their other classes, and that the computer's instantaneous feedback helps develop these skills. There seems to be a requisite level of reading skills, though, below which the fun of making neat things happen doesn't outweigh the frustration of trying to figure out how to right it. I'm not convinced that the time I spent on programming did anything but turn off the students below that level. - Learning about *design*, i.e., the skill of analyzing a problem statement and planning out its solution, can carry over to *any* class my students take. I feel that math, science, and English teachers should already be working on this skill, too, and it's all too easily lost in the deluge of content expected to be taught. [...and other benefits with which the edu-sig reader will already be familiar: making algebra seem more realistic, offering concrete ways to visualize what's happening, etc...] Now, if you're talking about offering a computing curriculum outside of the regular subject-area classes, and particularly, offering it to students who have reached a point where they'd be comfortable using the necessary text-handling skills, I don't see any problem with that. One could even use this example to make a point about the power of programming without necessarily expecting the students to learn to do the process themselves--though I'm wary of making it look more like magic than it already does. I think we need to connect the cool stuff to the question, "How would I learn to do that in the first place?" Anyway, that's more words already than I felt like dumping into my computer this morning, so I'll leave it at that. jmj : jordan m johnson : jorjohns@cs.indiana.edu : If I were a bug, I would want to be a true Renaissance bug. From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Apr 10 18:18:23 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Apr 10 18:18:24 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00B0HHWQYG@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050410161823.9D9481E4003@bag.python.org> > I cannot accept parsing a file in a programming language to be a basic > skill, and think considering it so deprecates the notion of "basic > skills". > My own interest in technology and education at the early grades is limited > to the extent to which technology might indeed be able to enhance the > learning of basic skills, but don't recognize that that those skills are > related in the slightest to the use of technology. And maybe therefore > tend to conclude that the entry of technology has little to justify itself > at that stage of the game. We're at opposite ends of the spectrum then. In my view, the basic skills include using technologies, starting with pen/pencil and paper, also toilets and sinks, eating utensils, telephone, clock, CD drive, keyboard and so on. The school I attended in Rome focused on eating utensils quite a bit -- British school, there's a right way to tilt your bowl when you eat soup. Technology is pervasive and this isn't a new thing. Sports likewise involve technology (balls, other apparatus), the skillful use and maintenance thereof. Now that computers have entered the picture, I see them as ubiquitous, and important to start practicing on early. Python in many respects replaces the bash shell as a primary command line, though we're not averse to these other shells (we studied bash at West Precinct). But understanding that files are the basic unit on a computer is important, and is better appreciated through hands-on exposure, vs. just some teacher saying "files are the basic unit... blah blah". The distinction between human-readable e.g. text, and binary formats, the whole idea of "formats" is something to get into (segue to music below). > It's not, I don't think, that I am going out of my way to be > argumentative. What you are saying here in fact touches what I consider > to be the near basic nerve where I consistently get off the bus - i.e. I > reject programming skills as anything near basic, and think any emphasis > of such skill should be directed - out of the box - at solving real and > more fundamental learning goals. I see programming skills as ultra basic, yes. Not that they're currently phased in that way, but I think they should be. The idea of a loop, with ifs, elses, i.e. conditional processing within iteration, is as basic as logic itself. It's one of those abstractions you see everywhere. When the teacher takes attendance and makes checks next to names in an attendance book, that's ultra basic, and pretty much the same thing (programming, just using pre-computer tools). When captains pick sports teams: iteration, choice, a control structure, the result being the two teams. > And that if we conclude that such an approach is unrealistic - it > might in fact be - than we should satisfy ourselves with programming for > the few with an active interest and aptitude. > I'm willing to vary the intensity of exposure based on self-selection, but when it comes to providing basic insight into what it means to script a computer, to program it, to set it up with tasks, I'm not willing to just let a few in on this secret. Everyone should get the basic idea, just like everyone should have a clue about how an internal combustion motor works, how various parts of the human body work (digestive tract vs. lungs for example -- not something to only tell "future doctors and nurses" about). > To my ears you are making the "it is important to learn programming > because it is important to learn programming" argument, which I do not or > cannot accept. Especially from a programmer. It's important to learn skills related to a key feature of our civilization: the automation of routine or mundane tasks such that vast amounts of data get processed at superhuman speeds. We're talking about a nervous system as basic to day-to-day living as the human one -- it's the *rest* of the human nervous system (the part outside our bodies). We also program our bodies of course, i.e. "programming" might be considered a pre-computer art and skill, depending how we define it. Education has always been about programming -- it's just a matter of what, not whether. > Where would you place parsing through a file, versus, say, being able to > read music notation - as a "basic skill" for fifth graders? Where should > we be directing limited resources? This wouldn't in fact be a discussion > worth having (if it is in fact worth having) were it not for the fact that > it is a hard reality that things such as music programs are suffering as a > result of the prioritization of "computer skills". And I keep thinking we > are still digging out of some kind of mass technology bubble mentality > when we can't differentiate better than that. > > Art > Parsing music notation *is* a kind of file parsing (my own 5th grader has been studying it) -- musical scores are files, formatted according myriad conventions. Computers and music are not antithetical subjects/topics. I'm all for getting more music back into the curriculum, and see computers as an ally (not calculators though -- they're not really up to the job). I went through the Python + MIDI options again a few weeks back. There's a lot more we could do. Squeak is ahead of Python with audio tools. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Apr 10 18:41:08 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Apr 10 18:41:09 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050410164107.E909D1E4003@bag.python.org> > One problem that many students have is a fundamental syntactic difficulty: > it takes a lot of work and reminders to get them to the point where they > would see the difference--ANY difference--between > f.write(...) > and > f write(...) > or similar constructs and remember to use the right notation each time (or > understand the interpreter's error messages). I focus a lot on "dot notation" as a way of pointing into a container, an object, that has verbs (methods) and adjectives (attributes) -- or maybe the adjectives are nouns (monkey.state = 'Awake'). You "trigger" or "call" the methods, get/set the attributes and so on. >>> polly = Parrot() >>> polly.fly() flap flap flap >>> polly.squawk() screeeeech My patter is very abstract, about mammals, dogs, humans. I focus on our own methods (eating, breathing, sleeping -- I tend to shy away from excremental functions with the little ones, but obviously they're implied). After my chatter, their imaginations are full of dogs barking, monkeys swinging, parrots squawking -- all before we deal with file-like objects having read and write methods. > So I'd be concerned that the syntactic (not to mention lexical--what do > all these function names mean?) baggage would get in the way of the more > basic requirement of teaching and learning *geography*. Traditional > teaching methods already emphasize linguistic skills heavily, and > especially considering that geography affords some opportunities for > visual learning, I wouldn't abandon those in favor of adding extra text- > handling requirements. I agree with you about the visual part. I was thinking we could add latitude and longitude next to each of the state capitals, and feed these to some plotting facility that makes dots on a map of the USA (or EU, or wherever). Geography is also a place to work on date/time concepts, e.g. GMT and the timezones relative thereto. The problem of clock synchronization. The fact that we're not working in base 10 when we work with standard time units. One thing we might do in geography class is ping servers around the world, look at traceroutes a bit, try to include the Internet as one of those global circuitries -- along with airlines and 3-letter airport codes, shipping circuits and so on. That 'Atlas of Cyberspace' is a place to visit and project on the big screen up front (the projector is indispensable to geography class in general). > Now, if you're talking about offering a computing curriculum outside of > the regular subject-area classes, and particularly, offering it to > students who have reached a point where they'd be comfortable using the > necessary text-handling skills, I don't see any problem with that. One > could even use this example to make a point about the power of programming > without necessarily expecting the students to learn to do the process > themselves--though I'm wary of making it look more like magic than it > already does. I think we need to connect the cool stuff to the question, > "How would I learn to do that in the first place?" > > Anyway, that's more words already than I felt like dumping into my > computer this morning, so I'll leave it at that. > > jmj Thanks for all those thoughts. I think the school/curriculum I'm envisioning would have to be considered pioneering and to some degree esoteric i.e. not all schools would follow suit. There'd be a lot of hanging back to see what kinds of results we got. But in our school, there'd be a lot of "programming-like" activities starting quite young. Although this may sound like a top-down experiment being *imposed* by some fanatical adult, in my actual experience it's the opposite. I'm already meeting the kids who want this kind of experience, and are getting it with or without any help from their schools (mostly without). As some of you know, I'm already wired into a situation where the goal is to provide after-school activities in a computer lab that keep kids engaged and occupied, and there's a commitment to working with open source tools, including Python. I'm speaking of West Precinct. So insofar as these ideas are being implemented, vs. just talked about, in my reality that's probably the front line right now. The demographics: mostly Latino kids, sons and daughters of first generation immigrants (just like the police chief, though he's Chinese). We'll be doing a fair amount of instruction in Spanish. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 10 19:07:31 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 10 19:07:37 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: CP4E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0IEQ00CCCQ86SM@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > Behalf Of Lee Harr > Give a 10 year old a PS2 and about the best that might happen is > he'll find a way to cheat. I've told the story here before. The first time my son became excited about computers was when he figured out that he could manipulate the size of fonts, and thereby exert less effort while fitting within the letter of the law requiring him to write a one page paper. His decision not to bring his computer to college with him was one of the few wholesome choices I witnessed him make in connection with these machines. Art From jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu Sun Apr 10 19:19:40 2005 From: jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu (Jordan Johnson) Date: Sun Apr 10 19:19:42 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00CCCQ86SM@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 10:07 AM, Arthur wrote: > The first time my son became excited about computers was when he > figured out > that he could manipulate the size of fonts, and thereby exert less > effort > while fitting within the letter of the law requiring him to write a > one page > paper. And that's fine, IMO, provided that we teach what shortcuts to use. I try to cultivate that sort of laziness in my students and direct it in productive ways, so that they can get at the "real work" with less effort. Everyone seems to enjoy learning things like tab-completion, right-justify, find/replace, and other tricks that save effort. This also requires being honest and persistent about some things, e.g.: "Don't bother putting a border on the page or setting a different font until you're done writing. It doesn't matter how pretty it is if you haven't answered the questions." jmj From dajoy at openworldlearning.org Sun Apr 10 19:26:08 2005 From: dajoy at openworldlearning.org (Daniel Ajoy) Date: Sun Apr 10 19:27:22 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050410170738.4C8211E400D@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <42591B60.8286.AD0DBB2@localhost> I think you are talking about what in the Logo community is called Powerful Ideas: http://www.yukoncollege.yk.ca/~srudge/comp052/ideas.html Daniel On 10 Apr 2005 at 19:07, edu-sig-request@python.org wrote: > I should add that I *do* believe there are some benefits to my students from > focused work on programming: > - I conjecture that the practice needed to get past the syntactic > barriers (like the f.write() example above) involved in reading and writing > code will carry over to their other classes, and that the computer's > instantaneous feedback helps develop these skills. There seems to be a > requisite level of reading skills, though, below which the fun of making > neat things happen doesn't outweigh the frustration of trying to figure out > how to right it. I'm not convinced that the time I spent on programming did > anything but turn off the students below that level. > - Learning about *design*, i.e., the skill of analyzing a problem > statement and planning out its solution, can carry over to *any* class my > students take. I feel that math, science, and English teachers should > already be working on this skill, too, and it's all too easily lost in > the deluge of content expected to be taught. > [...and other benefits with which the edu-sig reader will already be > familiar: making algebra seem more realistic, offering concrete ways to > visualize what's happening, etc...] > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 10 19:32:26 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 10 19:32:32 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00NDTNYM4G@mta21.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEQ00555RE560@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 12:18 PM > To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org > The school I attended in Rome focused on eating utensils quite a bit -- > British school, there's a right way to tilt your bowl when you eat soup. There is? Apparently when learning in Rome from the British one does as the British do, not as the Romans do. But I think you have explained the American revolution - in a nutshell ;) > > Technology is pervasive and this isn't a new thing. Sports likewise > involve > technology (balls, other apparatus), the skillful use and maintenance > thereof. Stretching exercises before the big game are also a part of sport. You're doing a stretching exercise. I will tell Wittgenstein. > > Now that computers have entered the picture, I see them as ubiquitous, and > important to start practicing on early. That's the standard line of thinking. I know it well. And reject it, hook line and sinker. Though I don't generally associate you with the standard line of thinking, so I am a little surprised at this turn. > But understanding that files are the basic unit on a computer is > important, > and is better appreciated through hands-on exposure, vs. just some teacher > saying "files are the basic unit... blah blah". The distinction between > human-readable e.g. text, and binary formats, the whole idea of "formats" > is > something to get into (segue to music below). Blah blah blah, indeed. Having assembled my 2004 income data for the inevitable tax filing, I have concluded I am entitled to call myself a professional programmer. And I can count on one hand the number of times I've need to parse a text file line by line, and on a closed fist the number of times I've need to do so from data retrieved live off the Web. What you are selling as "basic skills" for a 5th grader are not, in my experience, basic skills required of a professional programmer. That's how far off we are from one another. Art > > > It's not, I don't think, that I am going out of my way to be > > argumentative. What you are saying here in fact touches what I consider > > to be the near basic nerve where I consistently get off the bus - i.e. I > > reject programming skills as anything near basic, and think any emphasis > > of such skill should be directed - out of the box - at solving real and > > more fundamental learning goals. > > I see programming skills as ultra basic, yes. Not that they're currently > phased in that way, but I think they should be. The idea of a loop, with > ifs, elses, i.e. conditional processing within iteration, is as basic as > logic itself. It's one of those abstractions you see everywhere. When > the > teacher takes attendance and makes checks next to names in an attendance > book, that's ultra basic, and pretty much the same thing (programming, > just > using pre-computer tools). When captains pick sports teams: iteration, > choice, a control structure, the result being the two teams. > > > And that if we conclude that such an approach is unrealistic - it > > might in fact be - than we should satisfy ourselves with programming for > > the few with an active interest and aptitude. > > > > I'm willing to vary the intensity of exposure based on self-selection, but > when it comes to providing basic insight into what it means to script a > computer, to program it, to set it up with tasks, I'm not willing to just > let a few in on this secret. Everyone should get the basic idea, just > like > everyone should have a clue about how an internal combustion motor works, > how various parts of the human body work (digestive tract vs. lungs for > example -- not something to only tell "future doctors and nurses" about). > > > To my ears you are making the "it is important to learn programming > > because it is important to learn programming" argument, which I do not > or > > cannot accept. Especially from a programmer. > > It's important to learn skills related to a key feature of our > civilization: > the automation of routine or mundane tasks such that vast amounts of data > get processed at superhuman speeds. We're talking about a nervous system > as > basic to day-to-day living as the human one -- it's the *rest* of the > human > nervous system (the part outside our bodies). We also program our bodies > of > course, i.e. "programming" might be considered a pre-computer art and > skill, > depending how we define it. Education has always been about programming - > - > it's just a matter of what, not whether. > > > Where would you place parsing through a file, versus, say, being able to > > read music notation - as a "basic skill" for fifth graders? Where > should > > we be directing limited resources? This wouldn't in fact be a discussion > > worth having (if it is in fact worth having) were it not for the fact > that > > > it is a hard reality that things such as music programs are suffering as > a > > > result of the prioritization of "computer skills". And I keep thinking > we > > > are still digging out of some kind of mass technology bubble mentality > > when we can't differentiate better than that. > > > > Art > > > > Parsing music notation *is* a kind of file parsing (my own 5th grader has > been studying it) -- musical scores are files, formatted according myriad > conventions. > > Computers and music are not antithetical subjects/topics. I'm all for > getting more music back into the curriculum, and see computers as an ally > (not calculators though -- they're not really up to the job). > > I went through the Python + MIDI options again a few weeks back. There's > a > lot more we could do. Squeak is ahead of Python with audio tools. > > Kirby > From jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu Sun Apr 10 19:45:18 2005 From: jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu (Jordan Johnson) Date: Sun Apr 10 19:45:20 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <200504101641.j3AGf71M019939@moose.cs.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4DFAD62B-A9E8-11D9-AFFF-000A9566DF3E@cs.indiana.edu> On Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 09:41 AM, Kirby Urner wrote: > I think the school/curriculum I'm envisioning would have to be > considered > pioneering and to some degree esoteric i.e. not all schools would > follow > suit. There'd be a lot of hanging back to see what kinds of results > we got. > But in our school, there'd be a lot of "programming-like" activities > starting quite young. I'm with you on that; I'm just trying to reconcile it with my own experience in a useful way. It also sounds like your students are similar in background to mine, with the significant difference that mine are in 11th grade and have been through a lot more of the system (with all the baggage that implies). A question I wrestle with a lot is how to allow my classes to grow according to the students' needs, interests, and abilities, while still maintaining some rigor. My school gives me a LOT of leeway in curriculum design, subject to the basic stipulation that I demonstrate that there are well-specified objectives being met by the students. This also means that they need projects that the students can accomplish independently and, I would add, that they can do *well*. It does require constant reminding to check work, proofread, and read the instructions thoroughly on any task or tutorial. I'm not making any argument that this can't be done, mind you; I'm convinced that it can. For now my feeling is that the problem I'm up against is more that I don't have the experience--and with it, the bag of tricks--to make it all happen yet. > Although this may sound like a top-down experiment being *imposed* by > some > fanatical adult, in my actual experience it's the opposite. I'm > already > meeting the kids who want this kind of experience, and are getting it > with > or without any help from their schools (mostly without). Yes, this is the goal I have in mind, and this is what I see from most (about 60 out of 90) of my students. I can point these students in any of a number of directions, and they consistently both produce good work and tell me that they want to learn more of it. The puzzle I see is how to provide the best experience the low end of my group: both those who find computers fascinating but whose reading frustrations get in the way, and those who come in expressing that they want nothing to do with computers, reading, or solving problems. Thanks for your thoughts. jmj -- Find out just what any people will quietly submit to, and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. -- Frederick Douglass From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 10 20:06:52 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 10 20:06:57 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00NDTNYM4G@mta21.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEQ00CTTSZ3J9@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > But understanding that files are the basic unit on a computer is > important, > and is better appreciated through hands-on exposure, vs. just some teacher > saying "files are the basic unit... blah blah". The distinction between > human-readable e.g. text, and binary formats, the whole idea of "formats" > is > something to get into (segue to music below). You got me going. Not unconnected to Lee's point: "Files" aren't real, they don't exist, it is a paradigm stolen from the business office and has nothing to do with 5th graders, and by the time they are in 11th grade the paradigm, most likely, will have changed dramatically. The paradigm you are accepting, and teaching uncritically, is the interface fiction as something approaching a reality. If business offices put their papers in smoogies, we would be accessing smoogies from our hard drives. When of course we are doing neither of accessing files, nor smoogies. Art From jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu Sun Apr 10 20:12:24 2005 From: jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu (Jordan Johnson) Date: Sun Apr 10 20:12:30 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00555RE560@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <16B09E9A-A9EC-11D9-AFFF-000A9566DF3E@cs.indiana.edu> On Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Arthur wrote: >> Now that computers have entered the picture, I see them as >> ubiquitous, and >> important to start practicing on early. > > That's the standard line of thinking. I know it well. And reject it, > hook > line and sinker. When I attended the TeachScheme! workshop (http://www.teach-scheme.org/) last summer, our presenter started off by saying: "How many of you have taken a class in telescope science? Anybody? How about microscope science? Have you done that?" Point being, the computer is a tool, and it is absurd to spend time teaching only how to use a tool. The utility of the computer is in making connections to tough concepts such as abstraction, patterns, and modeling. And, even further, intelligence. My guess is that those are the sorts of basic skills and concepts Kirby's referring to. Regardless, they're the sort *I'm* referring to. > What you are selling as "basic skills" for a 5th grader are not, in my > experience, basic skills required of a professional programmer. > That's how > far off we are from one another. It's possible to be a professional programmer without truly getting some of the concepts I mentioned above. Just not a decent one. As for students (5th grade or otherwise): each one of those concepts feeds into the metacognitive abilities that help us make sense of new ideas. I see that as a Good Thing. Now, your choices of physical and conceptual artifacts to study--which ones (lungs, brain, internal combustion engine, traceroutes, loops, etc.), and how much of the role of each, are much harder to decide. I'm perhaps a little less inclined to agree with Hirsch and the like on notions of essential concepts for "cultural literacy", but I'd say it all has to be balanced between school/cultural expectations and teacher/student interests. (As summarized by these questions: What do you have to teach? What do you want to teach? What will they enjoy learning, or how do you connect new material to what they know/enjoy?) Some of my students have expressed an interest in learning about computer hardware. Right at the moment I really don't want to teach about hardware, but I understand that they want to be able to find resources on putting together computers, so I'll probably prepare a one-week unit on the parts of the machine and how they're related to the programs the students have been using all year. Perhaps in the spirit of simply introducing them to a possible avenue of work and study that many of them haven't seen before. Idly blathering, jmj -- The most damaging phrase in the language is, "We've always done it that way." -- Admiral Grace Hopper From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Apr 10 20:24:42 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Apr 10 20:24:45 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00CTTSZ3J9@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050410182443.CFBC01E4003@bag.python.org> > "Files" aren't real, they don't exist, it is a paradigm stolen from the > business office and has nothing to do with 5th graders, and by the time > they are in 11th grade the paradigm, most likely, will have changed > dramatically. > "Files aren't real" sounds like a philosophical statement. You could say it's a metaphor. In Linux, even devices get to be files. I seriously doubt this paradigm will have changed in six years. "The future will be different so let's not worry about teaching it now" is a standard cop out. I'm surprised you'd fall back on it so easily. > The paradigm you are accepting, and teaching uncritically, is the > interface fiction as something approaching a reality. > Don't confuse "files" with their representation as screen icons in a GUI. I'm thinking more in terms of bash (ls, cp, rm), Python's shutils and like that. Before we start using a computer in earnest, we need the concepts of "place" i.e. where things are, and what "things" are (i.e. files). The GUI isn't the only place to look. > If business offices put their papers in smoogies, we would be accessing > smoogies from our hard drives. When of course we are doing neither of > accessing files, nor smoogies. > > Art The metaphor isn't perfect, when mapping to the old business office idea of files. For one thing, businesses didn't go to such depth with the folders, i.e. a file cabinet is basically a set of drawers with folders, and that's it: no deeper (but you can nest in the other direction i.e. the city/building/block/room containing the file cabinet is part of the "path"). The idea of soft links is poorly implemented in the pre-computer business world (little post-its?), and, most important, the idea of a file being an *executable* is not really there. I mean, you'll get a memo directing you to do something, meaning employees are being treated as agents of the company, but in the computer world, you get to be the boss, and the computer is your dedicated slave. I want students to experience *administering* as early as possible. This is very much about empowerment (to use a buzz word). The computer, especially connected to the internet, is the paradigm power tool of our age. The sin would be to bring up a generation of passive consumers who complain and whine because "it won't do what I want." The mark of a successful civilization is it gives its people power over its most powerful tools, and not vice versa. At least, I see that as a democratic ideal myself and plan to walk my talk in this regard. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 10 20:50:53 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 10 20:50:59 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <16B09E9A-A9EC-11D9-AFFF-000A9566DF3E@cs.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <0IEQ00JPMV13PL@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jordan Johnson [mailto:jorjohns@cs.indiana.edu] > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 2:12 PM > To: Arthur > Cc: 'Kirby Urner'; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] CP4E > > > On Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Arthur wrote: > >> Now that computers have entered the picture, I see them as > >> ubiquitous, and > >> important to start practicing on early. > > > > That's the standard line of thinking. I know it well. And reject it, > > hook > > line and sinker. > > When I attended the TeachScheme! workshop > (http://www.teach-scheme.org/) last summer, our presenter started off > by saying: "How many of you have taken a class in telescope science? > Anybody? How about microscope science? Have you done that?" > > Point being, the computer is a tool, and it is absurd to spend time > teaching only how to use a tool. The utility of the computer is in > making connections to tough concepts such as abstraction, patterns, and > modeling. And, even further, intelligence. The further point being, in my mind, that the TeachScheme folks are much more responsible (because I think they are quite serious in and about what they are doing) about representations in respect to issues of age appropriateness. And that to some extent is and has been near the root of my admittedly knee-jerk reaction when I approach the idea of 5th graders parsing text files in Python. Logo has been mentioned. Lisp is to Logo as Python is to nothing that exists, or IMO, needs to exist. Since Logo exists. And Python is a programming language - most appropriate where it is most appropriate - not a Movement. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 10 21:03:19 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 10 21:03:25 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00HITTT6I5@mta24.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEQ00M3BVMGDI@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 2:25 PM > To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] CP4E > > "Files aren't real" sounds like a philosophical statement. You could say > it's a metaphor. In Linux, even devices get to be files. It's a philosophical statement to the extent that we need to differentiate (that word again) between what is as we find it, and what is because we made it that way. Nothing about the current state of computer interfaces or organization is or was inevitable. It represents more a reflection of our limitations, than our transcendence. What we can *find8 is much more capable than anything we can make, and there is more than enough to do in finding what we can find to keep us busy well past 5th grade. But if there wasn't confusion on the point, explained at least in part by a narcissism connected to "our" technological achievements - it wouldn't be worrisome. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Apr 10 21:03:29 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Apr 10 21:03:32 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00555RE560@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050410190331.333BE1E4003@bag.python.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Arthur > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 10:32 AM > To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] CP4E > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 12:18 PM > > To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org > > > The school I attended in Rome focused on eating utensils quite a bit -- > > British school, there's a right way to tilt your bowl when you eat soup. > > There is? > Yes: tilt it *away* from you. > Apparently when learning in Rome from the British one does as the British > do, not as the Romans do. > I forget if the Romans had a different protocol around soup. > But I think you have explained the American revolution - in a nutshell ;) > Definitely manners are used to enforce class. If you haven't been to the "right schools" it shows immediately, when you pick up the wrong fork. The servants all notice and blab about it below decks ("did you see that *American*?"). > > > > Technology is pervasive and this isn't a new thing. Sports likewise > > involve > > technology (balls, other apparatus), the skillful use and maintenance > > thereof. > > Stretching exercises before the big game are also a part of sport. You're > doing a stretching exercise. I will tell Wittgenstein. > I'm doing a Bucky: Universe is technology, technology is Universe -- he made no distinction between human and non. In one sense, we're entering an age of high tech. In another sense, it's *always* been high tech. Poster: picture of a nautilus shell. Caption: "High Tech: It's not just where we're heading, it's where we're coming from." > > > > Now that computers have entered the picture, I see them as ubiquitous, > > and important to start practicing on early. > > That's the standard line of thinking. I know it well. And reject it, hook > line and sinker. > And I accept it. I see many (not all) classrooms with computers at each desk, and lessons taking place using keyboards and screens. This goes for English, history, geography, languages, art, music, not just math, or science. This is different from how many schools currently use computers, as "work stations" where a few cluster at a time. Also, I'm seeing ergonomics which keeps the screens from blocking a view of the front. The teacher is still very critical in this picture. It's not a scene were everyone is facing the wall, backs to the middle, teacher walking around behind (West Precinct is like that, but I don't consider that ideal -- OGI was better). No, the teacher is mostly in control of the projector, and a lot of what the kids are doing is first getting projected on screen. To continue with my state 'n capitals exercise, we next want kids to fire up a little web server and list out their newly parsed data as a web page. At the command line: python -m CGIHTTPServer which fires up a server on port 8000. And in an appropriate cgi-bin subdirectory, they'll put something like: #==== states.py ==== import sys import cgitb; cgitb.enable() sys.stderr = sys.stdout print "Content-Type: text/plain" print f = open('c:/python24/Lib/site-packages/statecapitals.txt','rt') print "" print "" for line in f: city, state = line.split(',') print "" % (city, state) f.close() print "
%s%s
" print "" #==== Now http://localhost:8000/cgi-bin/states.py and you'll have your list. The quiz loop might be implemented in CGI as well, but that doesn't need to happen in geography class (but it might). > Though I don't generally associate you with the standard line of thinking, > so I am a little surprised at this turn. > The devil is in the details. Broad brush stroke agreement that computers are ubiquitous and need to be mastered is one thing. Exactly how this is accomplished is something else. For a lot of schools, "training in computers" nowadays just means firing up bizapps and dinking around with word processing and spreadsheets. That's OK, as far as it goes, but it's not far enough. Enter Python. > Having assembled my 2004 income data for the inevitable tax filing, I have > concluded I am entitled to call myself a professional programmer. > Part of the CP4E philosophy is we're diffusing the idea of "programming" to the general populace. Yes, there'll still be pro programmers, just like we have pro bicycle riders, pro car drivers, pro skiers. But we also just have ordinary women and men, cycling, driving, skiing, without claiming to be "professionals" (I'm a professional eater and sleeper too!). > And I can count on one hand the number of times I've need to parse a text > file line by line, and on a closed fist the number of times I've need to > do so from data retrieved live off the Web. > The importance of this exercise is in giving access to concepts that map to any number of situations. We've got the idea of URL, file, control structure (loop), extracting/filtering, and persisting data by saving it. At the metaphorical level, this is about all you *ever* do: locate something, process it, keep some of the value (eating soup fits this model, as does reading a library book or going to a film). In the context of geography, it's important that we've actually imported data from some *place* (a physical server somewhere on the globe) and invoked a global infrastructure (the Internet) to transport it to us. We're using global resources even as we study the globe. > What you are selling as "basic skills" for a 5th grader are not, in my > experience, basic skills required of a professional programmer. That's > how far off we are from one another. > > Art It's fine with me that we're not on the same page. Better in fact -- for edu-sig. Again, I'm not just interested in "professional programmers." I'm interested in kids getting a look behind the scenes at how things work. Files are a basic unit and come in many formats. Movies, songs, articles, books -- all files. The URLs help us expand the file system to the entire globe (vs just your local tree). You're free to request files using URLs, but you'll need to process them, either by eyeballing them or by running them through control structures of various kinds (e.g. through a browser or player). And you're free to share your own files as well -- look: here's how those states and capitals might be served to a browser on the fly, using Python's CGIHTTPServer. By the time you're in 8th grade, you're more like Tim: administering your own box, Apache and MySQL turned on, Python at your elbow, chat windows going. You're not a "professional programmer" -- just a talented, competent kid administering a host (maybe one you share with several friends -- doesn't have to be in your own basement, though it might be). Fun to do, part of what it means to be a netizen. Right now, most schools are terrified of the idea that kids should have all this power. Teachers don't know how to do this stuff. It's not in the curriculum. Python just sounds like a threat (a snake!? Good gosh!). Calculators are so much easier to control. So yes, my school is something of a radical departure, but it's what a lot of kids want, and it's what tomorrow's democracy will require. Kudos to the police for seeing that the job is to empower and make future friends, not clamp down in service of some tyranny. Relevant reading: 'In the beginning was the command line' by Neal Stephenson. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Apr 10 21:38:38 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Apr 10 21:38:41 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00M3BVMGDI@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050410193840.7D7131E4003@bag.python.org> > But if there wasn't confusion on the point, explained at least in part by > a narcissism connected to "our" technological achievements - it wouldn't > be worrisome. > > Art > I'm not worried. Your thought that all this derives from "the business office" (as if that were the central source of engineering metaphors) seems a bit quaint (narcissistic?), but I don't plan to encourage my students to suppose that business offices are the be all/end all of anything. Kirby From anna at aleax.it Mon Apr 11 01:04:35 2005 From: anna at aleax.it (Anna Martelli Ravenscroft) Date: Mon Apr 11 01:04:42 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050409183945.37B251E4003@bag.python.org> References: <20050409183945.37B251E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <4259B103.7040206@aleax.it> Kirby Urner wrote: > So I'm thinking more about CP4E and how that might look in the early grades. > What if you're not in math class, not in a CS or preCS class of any kind. > Still, you might get mileage out of Python. > > Scenario: what a lot of kids do in early grades is memorize some states and > capitals. In the USA, that often involves the 50 states, maybe the odd > protectorate or whatever. In the EU, I imagine it's similar. In any case, > geography begets data structures. We could do this stuff with dictionaries. > > Fifth grade assignment: use Google or other search engine to find some data > file containing 50 US states and their capitals; download to your local > drive; write a Python program to snarf this data into a dictionary. Write a > short quiz loop to ask yourself the capitals. Could be sixth grade, > whatever. > > The point is: we're always dealing with alphanumeric data, in structures. > Yes, this is how to introduce XML as well, but I'm not suggesting we should > only care about that. Python is blessed with VHLL data structures, and > mixing them (a list of dictionaries of tuples) etc. is completely logical -- > don't need to get with the Perl references and pointers way of thinking > (because that's how you're thinking anyway). Indexing into a list with an > integer, or into a mapping with a key word, is what I'd call a "paradigm > academic experience" -- so why not do it in Python? > > Following my own advice (5th grade assignment): > http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/dbork/data/USRegionState.daml > http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763765.html > > As the teacher, I'd probably just parse through either of these to generate > a very simple plaintext version, 2-column e.g. > > state capital > state capital > ... According to my 12 year-old son who is in 6th grade: I think it would be a better way to learn geography but not all kids know python.Some haven't even HEARD about python but learning it would speed up learning about geography too. Anyways - that's his take on it. ;-) Personally, I think it's a great suggestion. I know that flashcards can be useful, but creating your own game to learn stuff is even better. You get something you can use a lot in the future - anytime you have something you need to practice (songs, lines of a play, whatever), you could use this technique. I've used file parsing a fair bit already - and I'm not a programmer either. Just somebody who uses python to get stuff done. Anna From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Apr 11 01:54:42 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Apr 11 01:54:49 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEQ00KJYVLTG7@mta25.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IER00FUH93AE7@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > > Behalf Of Arthur > > > The school I attended in Rome focused on eating utensils quite a bit - > - > > > British school, there's a right way to tilt your bowl when you eat > soup. > > > > There is? > > > > Yes: tilt it *away* from you. Can your pinky finger be just anywhere? Hope not. > Definitely manners are used to enforce class. If you haven't been to the > "right schools" it shows immediately, when you pick up the wrong fork. > The > servants all notice and blab about it below decks ("did you see that > *American*?"). There are those who may have been at the right schools, taking the opportunity to do the wrong things. Fuller was a drop-out, I think. > I'm doing a Bucky: Universe is technology, technology is Universe -- he > made no distinction between human and non. In one sense, we're entering > an > age of high tech. In another sense, it's *always* been high tech. > > Poster: picture of a nautilus shell. Caption: "High Tech: It's not > just > where we're heading, it's where we're coming from." I heard a recent quote from a leading AI expert and advocate noting that the best we can do is a triviality compared to the brain of an ant. Personally, I don't suspect we are going anywhere in particular. We're futzing, though gloriously. > > > > > > > Now that computers have entered the picture, I see them as ubiquitous, > > > and important to start practicing on early. > > > > That's the standard line of thinking. I know it well. And reject it, > hook > > line and sinker. > > > > And I accept it. I see many (not all) classrooms with computers at each > desk, and lessons taking place using keyboards and screens. This goes for > English, history, geography, languages, art, music, not just math, or > science. You are expressing CP4E and the extension to its approach as I have always understood it. My position has been consistent. So you will have to continue to bear with my attempts to sabotage your vision as best as I can. Hopefully continuing with the (generally) good nature you tend to demonstrate in the face of those attempts. Art From janc13 at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 02:42:52 2005 From: janc13 at gmail.com (JanC) Date: Mon Apr 11 02:42:54 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: RFS: python-visual - VPython 3D scientificvisualization library In-Reply-To: <0IEP005RK125MB@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <984838bf0504082015138288c9@mail.gmail.com> <0IEP005RK125MB@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <984838bf050410174224e8d9b1@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2005 9:05 PM, Arthur wrote: > >> Behalf Of JanC >> >> I'm not 100% sure, but AFAIK Ubuntu doens't _require_ the package to >> be in Debian before they accept it? >> >> You might ask on the ubuntu-devel mailing list or on the #ubuntu-motu >> channel on the Freenode IRC network (MOTU = Master Of The Universe, >> the 'title' given to the maintainers of universe). > What I had already done is contacted Floris to make sure he was aware of > ubuntu, suggesting that the ubuntu folks might have a particular interest in > seeing a well maintained Debian packaging of VPython, considering their > general favorable inclinations toward Python. > > Turns out he is in fact a ubuntu user, and enthusiast. I'm a happy Ubuntu user too. :-) > And he seems to imply in his response that the avenue he is pursuing was > what he thought was necessary to have VPython accepted into the ubuntu > universe - or at least the course of least resistance in doing so. I asked one of the MOTU today... It's not required for a package to be in Debian first, but they prefer if it goes into Debian before or after it goes into Ubuntu universe, because that makes maintenance easier for them. Anyway, now that "Hoary Hedgehog" is released, Floris has several months to make sure VPython gets included into Ubuntu 5.10 "Breezy Badger", which will be released in October this year. ;) -- JanC From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Apr 11 05:44:38 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Apr 11 05:44:51 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: <4259B103.7040206@aleax.it> Message-ID: <20050411034449.6CBD51E4003@bag.python.org> So I uploaded a tiny demo showing how I might quiz myself about state capitals using a simple cgi script. http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/form1.txt http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/checkanswer.txt http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/statecapitals.txt are viewable versions (extension changed from cgi to txt for the first two). The executable cgi scripts are testable here: http://www.4dsolutions.net/cgi-bin/form1.cgi There's nothing fancy or special going on here. Definitely Python 101 (basic basic). But I could see incorporating this material into a Geography class. Again: the server is someplace else (location, URL address) and the infrastructure used to interact with it is global (Internet). That's relevant to geography! Note that having all the capitals in a drop down makes the task easier. You only need to recognize the capital, not call it up from scratch. The order of these capitals is random (changes with every visit), not alphabetical as one might expect from previous experience with such drop-downs. As Anna pointed out, this same skeletal approach could fit multiple data sets, i.e. we could reuse the code to test ourselves on any list of key-value pairs. I did have some big fights to get this far (typical struggles): (1) obscure bug on first release of Python 2.4 kept cgi values from passing to a child process. Fixed by installing 2.4.1. This was a bug in the Windows version only. (2) because I'm playing around on a WinXP laptop and using PSFTP to copy files up to my ISP, I got bitten by the line-ending problem, i.e. Apache at the ISP dies if the line endings are \r\n instead of \n (locally, CGIHTTPServer didn't care). I fixed this by running Perl stuff like: perl -p -e 's/\r$//' < winfile.txt > unixfile.txt Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Apr 11 13:41:50 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Apr 11 13:41:58 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: <20050411034449.6CBD51E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0IES00HJ05TV1R@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Kirby - A great microcosm of where things stand, IMO. It's simply amazing how well what we are capable of technically maps to how things *should* be taught. Is there an Unseen Hand arranging the universe in this user friendly fashion. Art > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Kirby Urner > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 11:45 PM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] CP4E (states cgi demo) > > > So I uploaded a tiny demo showing how I might quiz myself about state > capitals using a simple cgi script. > > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/form1.txt > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/checkanswer.txt > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/statecapitals.txt > > are viewable versions (extension changed from cgi to txt for the first > two). > > > The executable cgi scripts are testable here: > http://www.4dsolutions.net/cgi-bin/form1.cgi > > There's nothing fancy or special going on here. Definitely Python 101 > (basic basic). But I could see incorporating this material into a > Geography > class. Again: the server is someplace else (location, URL address) and > the > infrastructure used to interact with it is global (Internet). That's > relevant to geography! > > Note that having all the capitals in a drop down makes the task easier. > You > only need to recognize the capital, not call it up from scratch. The > order > of these capitals is random (changes with every visit), not alphabetical > as > one might expect from previous experience with such drop-downs. > > As Anna pointed out, this same skeletal approach could fit multiple data > sets, i.e. we could reuse the code to test ourselves on any list of > key-value pairs. > > I did have some big fights to get this far (typical struggles): > > (1) obscure bug on first release of Python 2.4 kept cgi values from > passing > to a child process. Fixed by installing 2.4.1. This was a bug in the > Windows version only. > > (2) because I'm playing around on a WinXP laptop and using PSFTP to copy > files up to my ISP, I got bitten by the line-ending problem, i.e. Apache > at > the ISP dies if the line endings are \r\n instead of \n (locally, > CGIHTTPServer didn't care). I fixed this by running Perl stuff like: > perl > -p -e 's/\r$//' < winfile.txt > unixfile.txt > > Kirby > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From nico at tekNico.net Mon Apr 11 18:21:07 2005 From: nico at tekNico.net (Nicola Larosa) Date: Mon Apr 11 18:35:02 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: <20050411034449.6CBD51E4003@bag.python.org> References: <4259B103.7040206@aleax.it> <20050411034449.6CBD51E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: > (2) because I'm playing around on a WinXP laptop and using PSFTP to copy > files up to my ISP, I got bitten by the line-ending problem, i.e. Apache at > the ISP dies if the line endings are \r\n instead of \n (locally, > CGIHTTPServer didn't care). I fixed this by running Perl stuff like: perl > -p -e 's/\r$//' < winfile.txt > unixfile.txt You don't really need Perl nor sed for that. There's this little gem, hidden in the sources of the Python interpreter: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/Tools/scripts/crlf.py?view=markup I think that the Demo and the Tools directories should be included in all binary distributions of the Python interpreter. -- Nicola Larosa - nico@tekNico.net Q: Should I dislike Python's significant whitespace? A: No, you shouldn't. [...] Q: But it's ugly and wrong. A: No, it's not. It's beautiful and right. -- Jarno Virtanen on his weblog, February 2005 From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Apr 11 20:43:58 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Apr 11 20:44:02 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: <0IES00HJ05TV1R@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050411184401.BCA8C1E4005@bag.python.org> > > Kirby - > > A great microcosm of where things stand, IMO. > > It's simply amazing how well what we are capable of technically maps to > how things *should* be taught. > > Is there an Unseen Hand arranging the universe in this user friendly > fashion. > > Art Not nearly user-friendly enough yet, IMO. To make all this usable to grade school teachers, I need a real web page, in addition to working, downloadable scripts plus raw data. Once that's all in place, a Spanish version would be cool, for use at West Precinct. Also, to make it all more relevant and substantive, I think the emphasis needs to be on databases as a key topic -- meaning I need to lose the text file and read from a data table instead. The text file now becomes the source of raw data for the data table (instantiated before any cgi scripts get run). I'll let you know when my very visible hands have done the work. The capital of Guam is Aga?a, and that little n-with-a-tilde is plunging me into the world of utf8. Certainly Unicode is another one of those key topics that kids should check out early on. Here's an overview of my curriculum that includes it (Unicode): http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/mainoutline.html (back to basic numeracy -- but there's overlap with geography, certainly). Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Apr 11 20:54:01 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Apr 11 20:54:05 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050411185403.994711E4005@bag.python.org> > I think that the Demo and the Tools directories should be included in all > binary distributions of the Python interpreter. > > -- > Nicola Larosa - nico@tekNico.net Thanks Nicola. Yes, I see that's in Tools in the Windows distro. I've uploaded it to my ISP as I'm not sure if I have access to a Tools subdirectory on their Python2.2 build on their Red Hat 7.x server (one of a bazillion). I'll check next time I ssh into Digital Space. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Mon Apr 11 22:17:04 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Mon Apr 11 22:17:08 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IER00FUH93AE7@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050411201707.51F031E4006@bag.python.org> > There are those who may have been at the right schools, taking the > opportunity to do the wrong things. Fuller was a drop-out, I think. > Actually, Fuller got "fired" from Harvard as he put it -- expelled. He'd romanticized the place to the point that he couldn't stomach the reality (a family tradition). The last straw: he went to New York and took the whole cast of some play out for drinks. At least he read his great aunt's stuff: Margaret Fuller Osoli was big in the New England Transcendentalist movement [1], and there's literary evidence to suggest we certify Fuller as the last of same.[2] He partially redeemed himself at Harvard in the 1960s, holding the Charles Eliot Norton chair of poetry for a spell. Here's my bio of the guy, FYI: http://www.grunch.net/synergetics/bio.html Kirby [1] http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/transcendentalism/margaret_fuller.html [2] http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id169/pg1/ From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Apr 11 23:03:25 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Mon Apr 11 23:04:03 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) Message-ID: Kirby writes - >Certainly Unicode is another one of those key >topics that kids should check out early on. god knows who will be helping them with their homework ;) it seems to me that if you and I were each hooked up to geiger counters and the word "Promethean" was flashed in front of us, our needles would move in opposite directions. Art From glingl at aon.at Mon Apr 11 23:28:36 2005 From: glingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl) Date: Mon Apr 11 23:28:34 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425AEC04.2090505@aon.at> ajsiegel@optonline.net schrieb: > Kirby writes - > > >>Certainly Unicode is another one of those key >>topics that kids should check out early on. > > > god knows who will be helping > them with their homework ;) > > it seems to me that if you and I were each > hooked up to geiger counters and the > word "Promethean" was flashed in front of us, > our needles would move in opposite > directions. Are you sure that each of you 2 would use geiger counters with needles? Gregor > > Art > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From missive at hotmail.com Tue Apr 12 00:00:03 2005 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Tue Apr 12 00:00:24 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: CP4E Message-ID: >This is very much about empowerment (to use a buzz word). The computer, >especially connected to the internet, is the paradigm power tool of our >age. >The sin would be to bring up a generation of passive consumers who complain >and whine because "it won't do what I want." I guess there will be people who see computers as just really nice TVs / Stereos / Typewriters -- lots and lots of channels / songs / spellchecking. I just can't stomach the fact that we seem to be teaching just that. Maybe there simply are not yet many people in the teaching profession who really understand the power of this tool. The ones who understand are young enough to still be using their skills in other careers. Perhaps in the next few years retiring hackers will start finding 2nd careers as teachers. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Apr 12 00:09:39 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Tue Apr 12 00:09:41 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) Message-ID: <11ff17f11fff7c.11fff7c11ff17f@optonline.net> From: Gregor Lingl > ajsiegel@optonline.net schrieb: > > Kirby writes - > > it seems to me that if you and I were each > > hooked up to geiger counters and the > > word "Promethean" was flashed in front of us, > > our needles would move in opposite > > directions. > Are you sure that each of you 2 would use > geiger counters with needles? Sorry. I was poorly educated. Do sounds have opposites? Perhaps our sounds waves would cancel each other out. There would silence, but radioactivity nonetheless. Dangerous. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Apr 12 00:27:02 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Tue Apr 12 00:27:04 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) Message-ID: From: ajsiegel@optonline.net > From: Gregor Lingl > > ajsiegel@optonline.net schrieb: > > Sorry. I was poorly educated. Of course under (my intepretation of) Kirby's regime, we will all have expertise in the workings of one particular kind of machine, the Uber-Machine. But I am not so sure - in practice - of much else. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Apr 12 09:41:54 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Apr 12 09:41:59 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050412074157.E8A211E4005@bag.python.org> OK, so a next iteration of where I'm going with my little lesson about databases is here: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/geoquiz.html It's still too dry -- needs some graphics, more splashes of color. But the content is sort of there. This is one of those pages you can browse fairly quickly or, if you want to study for awhile, you've got source code for doing cgi scripts with MySQL using Python. Nothing fancy. It's the kind of code one naturally wants to improve. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Apr 12 14:32:10 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Apr 12 14:32:19 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: <20050412074157.E8A211E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0IEU001U52TAFC@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Kirby Urner > OK, so a next iteration of where I'm going with my little lesson about > databases is here: > > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/geoquiz.html > > It's still too dry -- needs some graphics, more splashes of color. But > the > content is sort of there. We did the dairy and the bank, For 5th graders I think a field trip to a data center would be a swell thing. And leave it at that. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Apr 12 15:02:22 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Apr 12 15:03:00 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: <20050412074157.E8A211E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0IEU007DV4730O@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > Behalf Of Kirby Urner > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:42 AM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) > OK, so a next iteration of where I'm going with my little lesson about > databases is here: > > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/geoquiz.html Since I don't suspect I would be able to do it, you might have the 5th graders find the bug - as Frankfort is not the capital of Kansas. I have fond memories of my father quizzing my sisters and I on state capitals to pass the time on long car rides - which is perhaps why the impersonal technological alternative touches a particular nerve - sadly. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Apr 12 15:23:48 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Apr 12 15:23:50 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: <0IEU001U52TAFC@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050412132349.AE8FB1E4005@bag.python.org> > We did the dairy and the bank, For 5th graders I think a field trip to a > data center would be a swell thing. > Bread factory! (Franz) > And leave it at that. > Data center is a good idea, but why not combine the field trip with a lesson? Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Apr 12 15:35:01 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Apr 12 15:35:03 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: <0IEU007DV4730O@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050412133502.3EFD41E4006@bag.python.org> > > OK, so a next iteration of where I'm going with my little lesson about > > databases is here: > > > > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/geoquiz.html > > Since I don't suspect I would be able to do it, you might have the 5th > graders find the bug - as Frankfort is not the capital of Kansas. > That's not what's in the data (sans any fix). I've got Topeka for Kansas, Frankfort for Kentucky. The raw data is available to teachers and students: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/newstates.txt I should add a Python script that simply dumps the contents of the states table as an HTML table. That'll be my next enhancement. > I have fond memories of my father quizzing my sisters and I on state > capitals to pass the time on long car rides - which is perhaps why the > impersonal technological alternative touches a particular nerve - sadly. > > Art It doesn't *have* to be impersonal, even if it's cgi & MySQL. A kid could code this at home and proudly show her dad. The dad could play while the kid watches. I do agree however, that 5th grade would be a lower age limit coming from a bell curve standpoint, i.e. most kids exploring this content in any real depth would be older. My goal as a curriculum writer is just to make the material available in a connected, not-dumbed-down form, and leave the rest to natural self-selection. In particular, I'm writing stuff I may want to use myself in a teaching capacity -- at West Precinct, for Saturday Academy, or with the GIS people for example (having just done 3 hours with GIS people, end of March, is probably influential here). I've added a splash of color since the last posting. I'm feeling like I'm nearing the end of this particular project (I may tweak the source some -- all those individual print statements could be amalgamated, plus I'd like to write more comments, with mention template-based solutions). http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/geoquiz.html Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Apr 12 17:24:06 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Tue Apr 12 17:24:20 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: CP4E (states cgi demo) Message-ID: <12b4d2712ae7a2.12ae7a212b4d27@optonline.net> From: Kirby Urner > My goal as a curriculum writer is just to make the material > available in a > connected, not-dumbed-down form, and leave the rest to natural > self-selection. Can't argue with that approach. Damn it ;) ARt From jmillr at umich.edu Tue Apr 12 22:33:08 2005 From: jmillr at umich.edu (John Miller) Date: Tue Apr 12 22:33:11 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: <20050412074201.925221E400C@bag.python.org> References: <20050412074201.925221E400C@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <65462efa1f43b1c2d7e62b0f6c672173@umich.edu> I like it. Thanks, Kirby. I'd simply like to suggest a couple of minor modification to the quiz. When I go to the quiz, I'm overwhelmed by the number of choices in the popup, and find it difficult to find the right city. How about instead populating the popup with the correct city plus, say, half-a-dozen to a dozen other randomly selected other cities? (I realize that with repeated refreshes, a cheater could eventually eliminate all but the right choice...) Also, going the other way is useful: "Lansing is the capital of which state?" I'm also wondering about managing the data when a class scales it up. For example, I can imagine extending the data beyond the USA to include countries and their capitals. Now we need another column to indicate the region of interest for the quiz. Not too hard. Now let's imagine other sorts of quizzes, e.g., "Which of these 8 cities is NOT in South America?" Now each database row has another column listing major cities. And this, of course, is best handled relationally. My question is, how can the data be managed, and grown, by the students in an educationally relevant way? I guess I'm wondering not only about partitioning the data, but also partitioning the learning. One way would be for each student (or small team) to maintain their own set of (largely identical) data. Another approach might be for each student (or team) to maintain different sets of data. And if these different datasets are to be related, students need to coordinate their efforts. (And then, layer in the various quizzes that could be developed...) I haven't had the opportunity to teach programming yet, so I'm curious how those who have might approach the data-management aspect in this scenario Kirby is sketching. John Miller On Apr 12, 2005, at 3:42 AM, "Kirby Urner" wrote: > OK, so a next iteration of where I'm going with my little lesson about > databases is here: > > http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/geoquiz.html > > It's still too dry -- needs some graphics, more splashes of color. > But the > content is sort of there. > > This is one of those pages you can browse fairly quickly or, if you > want to > study for awhile, you've got source code for doing cgi scripts with > MySQL > using Python. > > Nothing fancy. It's the kind of code one naturally wants to improve. > > Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Apr 12 22:44:32 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Apr 12 22:44:36 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] CP4E (states cgi demo) In-Reply-To: <65462efa1f43b1c2d7e62b0f6c672173@umich.edu> Message-ID: <20050412204434.0BF191E4006@bag.python.org> > I haven't had the opportunity to teach programming yet, so I'm curious > how those who have might approach the data-management aspect in this > scenario Kirby is sketching. > > John Miller > Hi John -- All your suggestions are good ones. I especially like when you describe quizzes that might necessitate going to a multi-table format, meaning relational and/or Boolean selects (WHERE clause join and filter conditions). The point about too many choices in the popup is also valid, especially in light of the random shuffling that goes on, i.e. most sane drop-downs you'd encounter would at least be alphabetical for crying out loud. One of my chief pedagogical techniques is, people looking at my stuff *know* they can improve on it, with a little work. Heck, even *I* know that. It's a hard thing, sometimes, to just stop and leave a simple, primitive example that is, how shall I put it, annoying (because it's so ready for improvement). I try to fix most of the typos at least. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Apr 13 17:36:36 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Wed Apr 13 17:36:49 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] critical pinky position Message-ID: <14ec1d814ec5b3.14ec5b314ec1d8@optonline.net> I had asked - >Can your pinky finger be just anywhere? Hope not. The critical, often ignored pinky position issue arises again, in rapid succession to my recent post. This time not in the context of table manners, but now in connection with Sean McGrath's search for the best notebook on which to run ubuntu. http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com/archives/2005_04_10_seanmcgrath_archive.html#111332485928626373 In a fully rational universe the convergence on this particular issue might not be occurring. Art From delza at livingcode.org Wed Apr 13 22:51:52 2005 From: delza at livingcode.org (Dethe Elza) Date: Wed Apr 13 22:51:55 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E Message-ID: <26e5024e2103d78d207fb406e54237a6@livingcode.org> CP4E, Computer Programming for Everyone is a powerful idea, that programming can be accessible and useful for anyone motivated enough to want to learn it. F4E, Fabbing for Everyone is a similar idea, but for the physical world. A fab lab capable of building practically any physical object, including things like circuit boards, can be approximated for about US$25,000 and they're being installed in Ghana, rural India, inner-city Boston, etc. Eight-year-olds can learn to use these tools to design 3-D objects, build them, program the microcontroller, etc. Even more, people are communicating their designs, teaching each other how to use the tools, posting CAD and wiring diagrams on their blogs, sharing ideas, and writing open-source software to make the whole process more integrated and accessible. There's a discussion from ETech on ITConversations here: http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail460.html The MIT Center for Bits and Atoms FabLab webpage is here: http://cba.mit.edu/projects/fablab/ Make Magazine covers the fab lab in issue #1 and their blog keeps up with similar do-it-yourself projects: http://www.makezine.com/blog/ The Hack-a-day blog covers similar ground: http://www.hackaday.com/ My question to the list is, if you could build anything you wanted, what would you build? And further: how would you have answered 10 years ago? How would you have answered when you were 8 years old? --Dethe "Ambiguity, calculated or generative, as a means of discontinuous organization, at first seems familiar to us" -- Pain Not Bread, An introduction to Du Fu -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20050413/8516680f/smime.bin From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Apr 14 00:03:26 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Thu Apr 14 00:03:46 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E Message-ID: <11aff9f11aeb5b.11aeb5b11aff9f@optonline.net> >F4E, Fabbing for Everyone is a similar idea, but for the physical >world. Interesting stuff - with or without the E concept attached. My exposure to this general realm of things is real (business) world - one of the clients with which I work closely is in the injection molding business. Had the opportunity to tour a plant in Poland that makes some of his molds. Interesting to see the process of CAD drawings directly controlling machines that are essentially carving dense metal in fine detail. Earlier in the process of creating a real product is the prototyping phase. That had been complex and expensive. Now there are contraptions like 3d printers. Industrial Geometry. is how those of us with a certain fixation might look at it. I would like to build the perfectly formed, appropriately flexible non-destructible hexaflexagon, with programmable faces. Wouldn't have thought of that kind of possiblity ten years ago - but materials science might not be too far away from it at this point. The sad part is that once I had it I would look back nostalgically on the days when folks needed to use a protractor to calc 60 degress and fold paper by hand. And I wouldn't be wrong - emotionally. pinky finger. Art From murtuzainn at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 06:53:17 2005 From: murtuzainn at gmail.com (Murtuza Ali) Date: Thu Apr 14 06:53:19 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] PyGTk and Glade help Message-ID: <988e3a8050413215375507700@mail.gmail.com> Hi, We are developing a CBT based "Free Software" for our social activities. We are using PyGTK alongwith Glade. We want to print a document through Printer and also we want to provide "Sound" support in our software. Has somebody worked on PyGTK or Python? We are not getting the PyGTK API's for sound and printing support. Can somebody help us? waiting for the early reply. regards, Murtuza From urnerk at qwest.net Thu Apr 14 07:19:58 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu Apr 14 07:20:03 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <26e5024e2103d78d207fb406e54237a6@livingcode.org> Message-ID: <20050414052002.3DC621E4002@bag.python.org> > My question to the list is, if you could build anything you wanted, > what would you build? And further: how would you have answered 10 > years ago? How would you have answered when you were 8 years old? > > --Dethe I'd like a new set of polyhedra, scaled to specific proportions, with one face open so they work as containers. The material should be transparent, a clear plastic perhaps. I have thick paperboard versions today, as a teaching tool. They work well, but they're wearing out, especially the rhombic triacontahedron. I have trouble speaking for the 8 year old version of Kirby. He's no longer around to represent himself. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Apr 14 14:07:30 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Apr 14 14:08:48 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E Message-ID: <0IEX00MFER2TUS@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Dethe writes - >Eight-year-olds can learn to use these tools to design >3-D objects, build them, program the microcontroller, etc. Assuming this is accurate... I can understand that as statement as to industrial design - one can be productive having no more than the capacity of an 8 year old. I don't understand it as a statement connected to education, though I understand in the context of edu-sig as purporting to be. Doesn't mean that there isn't something there. Just that "eight year olds can do it" certainly isn't enough to express it - at least to me. Why in fact is this a step forward - as an educational matter for eight year olds - compared to, say, folding paper? Is that obvious to everyone else but me? I guess I can be as persistent in expressing this point of view and asking these questions as there are posts to edu-sig persistent in ignoring that someone active herein questions these assumptions. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Apr 14 14:51:28 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Apr 14 14:52:50 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEX00MFER2TUS@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEX008L7T2ZFN@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Arthur > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:08 AM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E > > Dethe writes - > > >Eight-year-olds can learn to use these tools to design > >3-D objects, build them, program the microcontroller, etc. > > Assuming this is accurate... > > I can understand that as statement as to industrial design - one can be > productive having no more than the capacity of an 8 year old. Could that as well be a statement arguing against its educational value, and more generally about the education value of giving emphasis to using machines - industrial design advancing to the stage where we can assume that machines will just be usable, easily enough when the time comes to need to use them. And we need not pre-suppose what particular machine might be or become relevant to a particular student's life. So we are free to move on to other things, in good enough conscience. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Apr 14 15:32:19 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Apr 14 15:33:48 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEX008L7T2ZFN@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEX00DHGV1431@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:51 AM > To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > > Behalf Of Arthur > > > > Dethe writes - > > And we need not pre-suppose what particular machine might be or become > relevant to a particular student's life. > > So we are free to move on to other things, in good enough conscience. It is precisely the ubiquitous nature of PCs and the level of abstraction achieved for its use that argues *against* it significance in the classroom. My argument here not coming from abstract thinking, alone. I talk to young folks about their exposure to PCs in school and mostly hear that they are being taught things that either they already know, or know they can find out for themselves easily enough when the time comes to find it out. If they want to find it out. They are being bored, mostly. School does enough of that already. Show them how to find state capitals on the internet by writing complicated, obtuse text files and they know well enough they are being taken the long way around. My son was asking Mr. Jeeves early in the game. Yes, there is some thought and effort that can be given to getting folks below the surface of the machine's interface. But getting to the PC and the Fab machines is ludicrous, when the light bulb hasn't been tackled, and something like a primitive radio beyond the scope of what it seems realistic, or worth the effort, to tackle (somehow). What are we thinking? What am I missing? Art From delza at livingcode.org Thu Apr 14 19:40:51 2005 From: delza at livingcode.org (Dethe Elza) Date: Thu Apr 14 19:40:57 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEX00DHGV1431@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IEX00DHGV1431@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <8b2b975c4120c6ca122f5b28aff88665@livingcode.org> The point of my earlier post was not to argue for putting fab labs (or computers) in schools, the fab lab info was to set up the thought experiment (which requires neither fabs labs nor computers): If you could make anything (and you can) what would you make? And how would you have answered this ten years ago, or when you were eight years old? I guess eight is a magic number for me because, a) eight-year-old get mentioned in the fab lab context a few time in the ITConversations presentation, and b) my daughter is eight. Like Arthur, I'm not wholly in favor of computers in schools. I don't think teachers are very well prepared to present computers, and there is plenty for kids to learn in schools already. On the other hand, if kids are being exposed to computers, I think they should learn to program them, not use them as incomprehensible black boxes, and I think Python is the best way forward for that. In my daughter's school I see both poor uses of computers, and innovative uses (the language learning lab in particular). And of course, even if everyone had access to a fab lab, there are still things which you cannot make: a pony, a way to share your dreams with friends, etc. For those things there are better ways anyway. It's like artificial intelligence: Why spend thousands of man-years and millions of dollars to create artificial intelligence when it only takes two people nine months to make *real* intelligence? All this is beside the point of the thought experiment, however. I'd love to see what Nikola Tesla or Buckminster Fuller would do with a fab lab. And I suspect there are going to be a lot more creative inventors like that now that putting your ideas into physical form is more accessible. Likewise, the idea of sharing plans, howtos, and ideas over the internet is very powerful because there is a combinatorial explosion of knowledge. Creativity no longer has to be limited by either tools or lack of knowledge. What are the best things we can imagine? --Dethe When all else fails, men turns to reason. --Abba Eban -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20050414/b5040b65/smime.bin From urnerk at qwest.net Thu Apr 14 21:20:48 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Thu Apr 14 21:20:51 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <8b2b975c4120c6ca122f5b28aff88665@livingcode.org> Message-ID: <20050414192050.0288E1E4014@bag.python.org> > Like Arthur, I'm not wholly in favor of computers in schools. I don't > think teachers are very well prepared to present computers, and there > is plenty for kids to learn in schools already. On the other hand, if > kids are being exposed to computers, I think they should learn to > program them, not use them as incomprehensible black boxes, and I think > Python is the best way forward for that. > > In my daughter's school I see both poor uses of computers, and > innovative uses (the language learning lab in particular). > A tentative plan in my daughter's school is for me to teach a Python class next year over a period of several weeks (parents are allowed to do that at this public school, strangely enough, and it works well (we don't compete with the union, because we're unpaid) -- my wife is doing a class in mandalas that meets again today as a matter of fact). However, this Python class will be preceded by another class in Scheme, taught by the director of the computer lab. He's going to take the TeachScheme class this summer. If time permits, I'd like to sit in on at least some of his classes, to get a sense of that curriculum in action as well. Scheme is also taught at a nearby public high school. But in most of the state, the focus is still on Java (if programming is taught at all pre-college). However, we're not talking eight year olds here. More like middle school. And this is at a school that bills itself as technology-oriented (and it is -- the computer lab director is very good). Nor will this be the first Python class they've had at Winterhaven. On the other hand, we do get a complement of eight year olds and older who have a strong interest in programming and who need opportunities. So even if the mainstream curriculum is focused on somewhat older kids, I find it important to accommodate younger ones as well. Just last night at our Python Meetup (about 7 of us showed), I met a pair of coders with plenty of C++ experience, as well as Python, both doing sophisticated work on multiple platforms. Neither was old enough to legally drink beer (Lucky Lab has other beverages). <> > What are the best things we can imagine? > > --Dethe I think we need to imagine Python-related things to keep a focus. But that still leaves plenty of latitude, as fab equipment might have Python bindings, why not? I'd like to see what fab equipment APIs look like. Got any examples on the web? My dream is to put master teachers on the road, inside a fleet of cybervans, and have them show up at schools to give inspiring presentations. It's a disruptive technology and curriculum, but in doses I think schools will be able to handle, and to their long term benefit. This might have to be a government program, though private industry would get lots of contracts to make it happen. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 15 03:07:09 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 15 03:09:21 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <8b2b975c4120c6ca122f5b28aff88665@livingcode.org> Message-ID: <0IEY00H7OR8D44@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dethe Elza [mailto:delza@livingcode.org] > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:41 PM > To: Arthur > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E Dethe asks - > What are the best things we can imagine? As to computers and kids, generally .. An approach not unlike "zero-based budgeting". Let's start from the assumption that computers have nothing to do with the education of kids, tend to misdirect the energy and attention of kids, as well as the energies and resources of the educational system. If nothing else, it's cheaper to assume this, as a starting point. And resources are in fact scarce. And when presented, and only when presented, with specific, substantial and verifiable evidence to the effect there are fundamental learning goals that can be achieved by the interaction of children and data-processing machines that cannot be achieved by the interaction of children and human teachers, we begin to way costs, and consider options. Before that - and I think, for sure, we are before that - we talk and think about other things. As to Python and education: We declare Python mature. It is mature because it has been around a while and it is mature because it has been around a while because of its appeal to mature minds. We make no claims for it otherwise. We can find 14 year olds proficient in Pytbon and we can find 14 year olds proficient in C. We know we don't know what to make of that. And those of us who find ourselves productive in Python go out and be productive in Python in the way that Python helps make us be productive. And we share what we do. And we hope someone learns from what we may have done and shared. And if they are 14 years old, the better. Art From missive at hotmail.com Fri Apr 15 04:54:18 2005 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Fri Apr 15 04:54:20 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: PyGTk and Glade help Message-ID: >We are developing a CBT based "Free Software" for our >social activities. We are using PyGTK alongwith Glade. > >We want to print a document through Printer and also >we want to provide "Sound" support in our software. > >Has somebody worked on PyGTK or Python? We are not >getting the PyGTK API's for sound and printing >support. >Can somebody help us? > It's a bit scary that your message is the first hit on this google search: http://www.google.com/search?q=pygtk+printing Looks like you might find some good help on the pygtk mailing list though: http://www.daa.com.au/mailman/listinfo/pygtk _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Apr 15 08:05:54 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Apr 15 08:05:58 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEY00H7OR8D44@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050415060556.BBAC91E4002@bag.python.org> > And when presented, and only when presented, with specific, substantial > and verifiable evidence to the effect there are fundamental learning goals > that can be achieved by the interaction of children and data-processing > machines that cannot be achieved by the interaction of children and human > teachers, we begin to way costs, and consider options. Seems there's an assumption built in to the above paragraph that phasing in computers is about phasing out human teachers -- the old bugaboo of technology displacing skilled workers. But I don't see it that way. The synergy is computers *and* human teachers, providing more relevant and deeper educations for students, not computers *or* teachers. We also need to distinguish the many roles a computer might play. Consider the art history or literature teacher who simply uses a computer hooked to a projector and the internet to call up images, maybe using the google images search function (more likely she's found the relevant images in advance). The lesson is on Roman architecture and the difference between Doric, Ionic and Corinthian columns, or maybe it's a lesson on French Impressionism. The only role the computer plays is to find and project images. In a music class, it might be employed to sample CDs and project playable scores (a music appreciation course). On this list, our focus tends to be programming, with Python in particular. But here again, that does *not* entail a CS or even pre-CS context. Why shouldn't we teach regular expressions as an adjunct to grammar? I have a DVD with some gigabytes of literature in the public domain, courtesy of Scott and the Gutenberg Project. Maybe and English teacher wants students to search Shakespeare's work for any occurrence of the word 'rose' and uses a little Python to do the job. How the lesson goes from there might have nothing to do with Python. My thought is Python is a general purpose tool that might be useful in any number of disciplines, as might programming skills in general. I don't think we have a good sense of all the possible uses because each of us is limited in our imagination, and has limited personal experience growing up from childhood forward with a powerful programming language at our elbow, ready to do our bidding. So my expectation is that younger people will be a prime source of examples of what might be done. I'll do my best to inspire and suggest directions, but my expectation is that I'll be learning, more than teaching, vis-?-vis many Python coders half my age, or even a third. Heck, it's already that way -- and that's how it should be. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 15 08:59:30 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 15 09:01:41 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ004BF4Y0EC@mta17.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEZ00G6Z7I8VD@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > To: 'Arthur'; 'Dethe Elza' > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E > > > And when presented, and only when presented, with specific, substantial > > and verifiable evidence to the effect there are fundamental learning > goals > > that can be achieved by the interaction of children and data-processing > > machines that cannot be achieved by the interaction of children and > human > > teachers, we begin to way costs, and consider options. > > Seems there's an assumption built in to the above paragraph that phasing > in > computers is about phasing out human teachers -- the old bugaboo of > technology displacing skilled workers. No there is not, except that there *is* an assumption of limited resources so that phasing in computers means phasing out *something*, or at least not phasing in something other than computers. Like, say, smaller class sizes. I suppose it we don't assume limited resources the analysis might change - but then we have an analysis not rooted in the real world, or responsible. >But I don't see it that way. The > synergy is computers *and* human teachers, providing more relevant and > deeper educations for students, not computers *or* teachers. It's swell that you see it that way. I happen to see a synergy between teachers and old Life magazines, providing more relevant and deeper education for students - but can't seem to find a forum for my ideas. > We also need to distinguish the many roles a computer might play. > Consider > the art history or literature teacher who simply uses a computer hooked to > a > projector and the internet to call up images, maybe using the google > images > search function (more likely she's found the relevant images in advance). Maybe we are reading the old Life articles to get a sense of life in the Fifties, maybe we are cutting out pictures and building collages, maybe we are taking silly putty and transferring images of faces onto to the putty and stretching the images and smiling. Frankly, I'd love to find a way to fit computers in, but between the chess tournaments, the model building, the old Life magazines - there just doesn't seem to be time. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 15 15:10:01 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 15 15:12:10 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ004BF4Y0EC@mta17.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEZ00EENON7IT@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > To: 'Arthur'; 'Dethe Elza' > Maybe and English teacher wants students > to search Shakespeare's work for any occurrence of the word 'rose' and > uses > a little Python to do the job. Yes that in fact may happen. A frightening thought, to me. A depressing thought, to me. Horrid. We want everyone, apparently, working for us - even the Shakespeare teachers. Are you in fact advocating this as a sensible, meaningful way to approach Shakespeare. In any way. Under any circumstances. We should pick the work apart rather than take it in. It says it all, in fact. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 15 15:34:30 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 15 15:36:40 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ00EENON7IT@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEZ008WMPSKYV@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Arthur'; 'Dethe Elza' > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > > To: 'Arthur'; 'Dethe Elza' > > Maybe and English teacher wants students > > to search Shakespeare's work for any occurrence of the word 'rose' and > > uses > > a little Python to do the job. > > Yes that in fact may happen. A frightening thought, to me. A depressing > thought, to me. Horrid. > > We want everyone, apparently, working for us - even the Shakespeare > teachers. > > Are you in fact advocating this as a sensible, meaningful way to approach > Shakespeare. In any way. Under any circumstances. We should pick the work > apart rather than take it in. > > It says it all, in fact. Before it "came to pass" that I felt undereducated in mathematics, I felt undereducated as to my religious heritage, and more generally, the roots of the culture in which I lived. And came to the conclusion that it was important to my own intellectual development that I learn to appreciate the Old Testament in the language in which it was written. And did try to bring technology to bear to help - feeling that if I could see the Hebrew word in different contexts, and how it was translated into English in different contexts, I could begin to grasp the shades of its meaning. The search and concordance tools were easily available. The approach offered no substantial help, to me. It was too disjointed a methodology. I made progress without technology - but the diversion into an approach that included the use of technology turned out to be only a diversion. When I turned to the study of mathematics, technology became the center around which I progressed. Python was at the center of that technology. None of this is surprising. At all. All I find surprising is to need to talk about it as if it were surprising. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 15 15:57:57 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 15 16:00:19 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ008WMPSKYV@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEZ00F58QV3ZI@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > > To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Arthur'; 'Dethe Elza' > When I turned to the study of mathematics, technology became the center > around which I progressed. Python was at the center of that technology. > > None of this is surprising. At all. > > All I find surprising is to need to talk about it as if it were > surprising. The connection to technology is actually deeper than described here. My drive to study mathematics I know at some level being rooted in a fascination with the power of the technology. Povray floors me. Google floors me. I got to stop missing PyCon's. I miss one and everyone comes back talking about Alice. I miss another and Kirby is talking about searching for roses in Shakespeare - when before it he was making good sense. What did I miss this time? Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 15 16:25:26 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 15 16:27:38 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ008WMPSKYV@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEZ006M9S65V1@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:35 AM > To: 'Arthur'; 'Kirby Urner'; 'Dethe Elza' > > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > important to my own intellectual development that I learn to appreciate > the > Old Testament in the language in which it was written. And did try to > bring > technology to bear to help - feeling that if I could see the Hebrew word > in > different contexts, and how it was translated into English in different > contexts, I could begin to grasp the shades of its meaning. The search > and > concordance tools were easily available. Though I did in my search come across one curious matrix code: m h asteroid y a t 1 r 2 t 0 h 0 5 Not sure what it means ;) Art > > The approach offered no substantial help, to me. It was too disjointed a > methodology. I made progress without technology - but the diversion into > an > approach that included the use of technology turned out to be only a > diversion. > > When I turned to the study of mathematics, technology became the center > around which I progressed. Python was at the center of that technology. > > None of this is surprising. At all. > > All I find surprising is to need to talk about it as if it were > surprising. > > Art > > > > > From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Apr 15 17:40:01 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Apr 15 17:40:23 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ00G6Z7I8VD@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050415154006.E04321E400A@bag.python.org> > I happen to see a synergy between teachers and old Life magazines, Me too. > Maybe we are reading the old Life articles to get a sense of life in the > Fifties, maybe we are cutting out pictures and building collages, maybe we > are taking silly putty and transferring images of faces onto to the putty > and stretching the images and smiling. > I have no objection to any of these activities. However, when it comes to perusing collections of old media, such as magazines, sometimes (not always) the digital realm is the place to look. Here's how I see it: cyberspace is shaping up to be one of the greatest libraries the world has ever known. Schools are front ends to great libraries. Schools should be a front end to cyberspace. I can get access to Life covers, plus a lot of the famous pictures, online, e.g. here: http://www.life.com/Life/ All the sites I checked encouraged me to buy prints for like $20 a pop. Thanks to the Internet, kids will at least be able to look at pix. Here's one of Gandhi: http://frames.barewalls.com/frames/life/52/52105,52302/10/closeup/j8pod00245 352c.jpg Found this with Google images: http://www.chromosome.com/lifeDNA/Life-cover-April99.jpg (and many more covers as well, plus some inside pix). Great if you have a collection of old Life magazines in the school. My daughter has all the National Geographic magazines, including ads, back from a certain year (cost about $50 at Fry's Electronics) -- on CD (so again, one needs the computer). Also: because cyberspace *is* a great library, the option to homeschool, if you have a home computer and decent internet connection, is more attractive than ever. Not just kids, but many adults, now learn more from home than from sitting in any classroom. But I'm not saying that should be the only model, obviously. In terms of bang for the buck, investing in computers, projectors, access to cyberspace is a no-brainer. You give students a huge library that could not be reproduced as a physical brick and mortar library, for any reasonable cost. Plus you can still have your physical library of course (it's not either/or). > Frankly, I'd love to find a way to fit computers in, but between the chess > tournaments, the model building, the old Life magazines - there just > doesn't seem to be time. > > Art I understand that different schools systems and administrators will have different priorities. Getting one computer hooked to the Internet, and that computer hooked to a projector, would be my initial goal for a school, then for each classroom, then computers for each student -- perhaps laptops they can take home. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Apr 15 17:48:10 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Apr 15 17:48:16 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ00EENON7IT@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050415154815.39E981E4006@bag.python.org> > Are you in fact advocating this as a sensible, meaningful way to approach > Shakespeare. In any way. Under any circumstances. We should pick the work > apart rather than take it in. > I think you over-romanticize. Scholars use key words to index into works all the time. I don't know if 'rose' was a great example, but I can easily imagine a teacher wanting to look at references to planets, gold, other key words. Who knows exactly why. === Your search term was found in the following: # Timon of Athens - Act I. Scene I cond lord he pours it out; plutus, the god of gold,is but his steward: no meed, but he repay # Timon of Athens - Act II. Scene I waste? it cannot hold; it will not.if i want gold, steal but a beggar's dog,and give it tim # Timon of Athens - Act II. Scene II . poor rogues, andusurers' men! bawds between gold and want!all servants what are we # Timon of Athens - Act IV. Scene II erve his mind with my best will;whilst i have gold, i'll be his steward still.exit # Timon of Athens - Act IV. Scene III d by that below: the learned pateducks to the golden fool: all is oblique;there's nothing le # Timon of Athens - Act V. Scene I the rumour holdfor true, that he's so full of gold?painter certain: alcibiades repor === Sure I'll pick Shakespeare apart any day, with or without regular expressions. I'll even put his Collected Works on an operating table under bright lights, and cut into it with a scalpel, just to hear the romantics bleat. Does that mean I can't appreciate Shakespeare? Do romantics own him? > It says it all, in fact. > > Art > Maybe so, maybe so. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Apr 15 17:55:29 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Apr 15 17:55:41 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ008WMPSKYV@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050415155532.EA7BF1E400F@bag.python.org> > When I turned to the study of mathematics, technology became the center > around which I progressed. Python was at the center of that technology. > > None of this is surprising. At all. > > All I find surprising is to need to talk about it as if it were > surprising. > > Art I refuse to fall easy prey to some stereotyped view that "computers are appropriate for math and science and engineering, but have no real place when it comes to the humanities." Balderdash I say. Humbug. Utter BS. The C.P. Snow chasm needs to be closed, not celebrated. Kirby From delza at livingcode.org Fri Apr 15 18:27:27 2005 From: delza at livingcode.org (Dethe Elza) Date: Fri Apr 15 18:27:33 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ008WMPSKYV@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IEZ008WMPSKYV@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: What do we mean when we say "Education?" But first, a couple of quotes: I had remembered a quote from Mark Twain, which I can find no confirmation of on the internet, "I spent my entire life learning, except for the time I spent in school." Apparently the real quote is, "I've never let my school interfere with my education," which doesn't support the point I was going to make as well. Oops. "Education has replaced, 'I learn.'" --Ivan Illich And John Taylor Gatto, award-winning teacher, sums up the seven lessons taught in school (full essay "The Seven Lesson Schoolteacher" here: http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/tma68/7lesson.htm): 1. Confusion 2. Class Position 3. Indifference 4. Emotional Dependency 5. Intellectual Dependency 6. Provisional Self-Esteem 7. One Can't Hide OK, now to the point. School, and "education" have very little to do with learning. One of the best predictors for success in school is if a child can read before she begins attending school. School has many purposes: Keeping kids busy while their parents are at work, learning to accept long stretches of boredom and rote-work in preparation for an adult working life, even (in the best cases) preparing children to become good citizens and respect each other. Learning, whether math, English literature, or life skills, happens as a byproduct of education, if at all. Arthur discovered his own interest in mathematics and pursued it to learn more. I think that supports my thesis. I would love to be able to homeschool my kids, but most of the time my daughter enjoys school. She is very social, so for her school is a place to see her friends. She gets frustrated by the disjoint classes (she gets very focussed on a task and dislikes being interrupted at arbitrary 45 minute intervals to switch to equally arbitrary tasks), but she has to learn to put up with some things she does not like--school is excellent for learning that. There are cliques and children who enjoy being manipulative and hostile, so she gets to learn important lessons for dealing with others and how to handle confrontation--school is good for that too. And I think it important to expose her to the seven lessons above, in order to help innoculate her to them. Then at home we get to explore her interests and do some real learning: math, art, language, literature, and yes, computers (art again, we are mainly using the computer for stop-motion animation). Whether or not computers are used in school is a trifle compared to fixing the basic assumptions and design that make schools a poor place for learning. It's not that they fail at helping children learn, it's that helping children learn is not even a goal of school. --Dethe Email is where knowledge goes to die. --Bill French -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20050415/569b755e/smime-0001.bin From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 15 19:07:07 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 15 19:09:18 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ00GS6W8KA2@mta23.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IEZ00K7GZMWJD@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 11:55 AM > To: 'Arthur'; 'Dethe Elza' > Cc: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E > > > When I turned to the study of mathematics, technology became the center > > around which I progressed. Python was at the center of that technology. > > > > None of this is surprising. At all. > > > > All I find surprising is to need to talk about it as if it were > > surprising. > > > > Art > > I refuse to fall easy prey to some stereotyped view that "computers are > appropriate for math and science and engineering, but have no real place > when it comes to the humanities." Balderdash I say. Humbug. Utter BS. > The C.P. Snow chasm needs to be closed, not celebrated. You go fight with nature of things. I got better things to do. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 15 19:27:30 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 15 19:29:51 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0IF000KAA0KUY3@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dethe Elza [mailto:delza@livingcode.org] > Whether or not computers are used in school is a trifle compared to > fixing the basic assumptions and design that make schools a poor place > for learning. It's not that they fail at helping children learn, it's > that helping children learn is not even a goal of school. I can find no disagreement in our positions. "Whether or not computers are used in school is a trifle" is not the current wisdom on how things are going to get fixed. They will get fixed better if we keep that maxim in mind in our efforts in getting things fixed. It is hard to find like-minded people in the IT community. If I am fully consistent in my position I guess I shouldn't care. Somehow I do. Part of why I care about this is that there are powerful economic forces with an interest in getting us over-involved in a trifle, and making it a centerpiece. The ideas themselves - standing on their own merit - would not in my mind otherwise pose a serious threat of diverting our attention. This isn't the thinking of a paranoid. It's the thinking of a grown-up. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 15 19:34:24 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 15 19:36:47 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ00K7GZMWJD@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IF000JYU0X15Q@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > > I refuse to fall easy prey to some stereotyped view that "computers are > > appropriate for math and science and engineering, but have no real place > > when it comes to the humanities." Balderdash I say. Humbug. Utter BS. > > The C.P. Snow chasm needs to be closed, not celebrated. > > You go fight with nature of things. > > I got better things to do. Let me restate that. I find no dividing line between mathematics, science, engineering and the humanities. My sense of history is at this point intimately related to my sense of the history of science. Technology has some benefits for certain of the humanities - its all that to me - and little needs to be expected of it for some of the others. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Apr 15 19:58:23 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Apr 15 19:58:28 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IEZ00K7GZMWJD@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050415175827.916811E4006@bag.python.org> > You go fight with nature of things. > "Nature of things"? Some arbitrary problem with humans overspecializing. We've fought and won such battles before, no reason to admit defeat this time. Computers are helping us win. Apropos (and hot off the press): http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2005/04/last-isepp-lecture-2005.html > I got better things to do. > Good for you. I don't. Kirby > Art > From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Apr 15 20:10:22 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Apr 15 20:10:24 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF000JYU0X15Q@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050415181023.472DC1E4006@bag.python.org> > Let me restate that. > > I find no dividing line between mathematics, science, engineering and the > humanities. > And yet the respective communities, the experts in these fields, scarcely talk to one another. Each takes a huge amount for granted, and in polite company, they don't mix. They speak to their own. This is part of what we'd like to address, and technology has a role to play in building bridges. Computers: a product of engineering, connected to the world's libraries, a tool for writers, mathematicians, graphic artists alike. How many tools in our culture cross so many lines? I think you're in denial that something new has emerged, and that education (however we want to define it) will never be the same as it was. For me, the key questions all revolve around how to best take advantage of computers, not on whether to use them or not use them. We're going to use them -- that's a premise I start from. You go fight with the nature of things. I've got better things to do. Kirby > > Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 15 22:16:01 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Fri Apr 15 22:16:03 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E Message-ID: <13c837313c82c6.13c82c613c8373@optonline.net> Kirby writes- >I think you're in denial that something new has emerged, and that education >(however we want to define it) will never be the same as it was. And I think you are exhibiting mystical tendencies. What is new is going to solve problems with which it has no connection, otherwise why would have been put here. You are also saying it is in inevitable. >For me, the key questions all revolve around how to best take advantage of >computers, not on whether to use them or not use them. We're going to use >them -- that's a premise I start from. >You go fight with the nature of things. I've got better things to do. If you are making a political statement about my being quixotic in trying to fight this battle, and expecting to win - you are probably quite correct. Once a politcal force convinces that its victory is inevitable, its victory is in fact inevitable. The quintessential self-fulfilling prophecy. I do think that the fact that someone of your profile accepts the prophecy is a good indication I am at this point in fact fighting the nature of things. But you are good at questioning where we are, not as good - IMO - in understanding how we got to where we are. We will only be only getting there once again, now in a new way. Being fooled again. Thrilling. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Apr 15 23:13:35 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Apr 15 23:13:54 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <13c837313c82c6.13c82c613c8373@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20050415211353.7DA7C1E4006@bag.python.org> > Kirby writes- > > >I think you're in denial that something new has emerged, and that > >education (however we want to define it) will never be the same > >as it was. > > And I think you are exhibiting mystical tendencies. > I really don't understand why you think this. Technology has made a big difference to our way of life many times already. Refrigeration changed things (antibiotics need it -- Wulf was talking about this; read my blog post?). Or take movable type. Schools wouldn't be anything like they are now without mass publishing. All that had to be invented. Would someone raving how the printing press was going to change everything be considered "exhibiting mystical tendencies"? I suppose we each had our counterparts living way back when. > What is new is going to solve problems with which > it has no connection, otherwise why would have been put here. > > You are also saying it is in inevitable. > I don't know exactly what "it" is in the above sentence. I think there'll be many abuses of computer technology, have been already, many counter-productive experiments. It's called trial and error and we're going to see lots of errors. Kids tend to observe their peers and learn from them. So what comes to be the most popular way of using computers won't be imposed top-down by schooling. Rather, many students today take a high bandwidth internet connection for granted. For them, the computer means IM (instant messaging) and music. It's a tool for a social life, a communications device, like the cell phone. A minority maintains hosts on the Internet, but I expect more to do so as time goes on. A greater number keep blogs and/or a web site. It's kind of like waves coming in at the beach. You build channels, sand castles, you engineer formations to take in the ocean and make it flood your particular piece of beach property. I see computer technology like an ocean, sending wave after wave to the beach. I can't stop these waves, but I can design my little sand structures to take advantage of them. Plus I walk up and down the beach and learn from what others are doing, maybe stopping to help if invited. > If you are making a political statement about my being quixotic > in trying to fight this battle, and expecting to win - > you are probably quite correct. > I so far don't really understand where you've drawn the battle lines. You seem to have no problem with computer technology flooding into some niches, such as geometry ala Pygeo or other areas of math-learning. But when talk turns to Shakespeare or other humanities topics, you seem to bristle and reach for your battle armor. But what is it you're fighting exactly? You talk about Life Magazine and I point out that at least the covers, and really quite a bit of the internals show up for free on the web. Time covers too. We're talking about a front end to a vast and growing library. Google is just getting started -- is moving a data center to our neck of the woods by the way, some excitement about that. What is it you're against exactly? Is it a problem for you that kids in Sacramento have access to the Vatican Library? You'd rather they stick with silly putty? > Once a politcal force convinces that its victory is inevitable, > its victory is in fact inevitable. The quintessential self-fulfilling > prophecy. > > I do think that the fact that someone of your profile accepts > the prophecy is a good indication I am at this point in fact > fighting the nature of things. > The prophecy hasn't been spelled out in any real detail in this thread. I'm leery of arguing in the absence of any fleshed out utopian/dystopian imagery. We need some good sci-fi movies, projecting the near future, movies we might both see and then discuss. There's an Expo going on in Japan right now, with lots of futuristic imagery. Maybe that's a place to start. I just don't know what future you're fighting. If a saw a movie projecting what you most fear or dislike, I might feel the same way. Your dystopia might have a lot in common with my dystopia. I just don't know at this point. I think part of the communication gap between us is you write in a somewhat telegraphic, aphoristic style. I do that too sometimes, but I also write oodles of stuff on the web that's relatively long winded. I have a "verbose on" mode. People who want to research my thinking have a lot to go on, if they dig a little. I'm what they call a prolific writer. You tend to be terse to the point of being cryptic; to a point where I sometimes question your level of self-awareness (doesn't he understand that people really can't read his mind simply on the basis of low-bandwidth posts to edu-sig?). > But you are good at questioning where we are, not as good > - IMO - in understanding how we got to where we are. > > We will only be only getting there once again, > now in a new way. > > Being fooled again. > > Thrilling. > > Art This is an example of what I'm talking about. Terse, telegraphic, and boarding on meaningless -- unless you back it up with more context. Trying being highly verbose for a change, if you want me to even have a clue what your beef is with my pro-computers-in-education agenda. I'm going to stop butting heads with you until I at least have a better understanding of what gives you nightmares. Kirby From jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu Sat Apr 16 00:31:42 2005 From: jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu (Jordan Johnson) Date: Sat Apr 16 00:31:51 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050415211353.7DA7C1E4006@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <24585D62-ADFE-11D9-AFFF-000A9566DF3E@cs.indiana.edu> On Friday, April 15, 2005, at 02:13 PM, Kirby Urner wrote: > I don't know exactly what "it" is in the above sentence. I think > there'll > be many abuses of computer technology, have been already, many > counter-productive experiments. It's called trial and error and we're > going > to see lots of errors. > > Kids tend to observe their peers and learn from them. So what comes > to be > the most popular way of using computers won't be imposed top-down by > schooling. This is where *I* see the interesting question: Where is the balance we must strike between experiment, see new things, and play! and practice to assimilate new patterns, forms, and structures and identifying and meeting goals for learning ? The technology we work with is a powerful motivational tool, no question. I know it can be connected to high-level discipline of thinking, too (though I'm not convinced that play and experimentation alone will lead to that jump). I really don't know. This is sort of a half-baked question, yes, but I've been interested in this discussion of how computers (and computer science, i.e., reasoning about computation) figure into the grand scheme of education, science, and the humanities. jmj -- No matter how far down the wrong road you have gone, turn back now. -- Anonymous (Turkish proverb) From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Apr 16 03:24:10 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Apr 16 03:26:22 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E Message-ID: <0IF000731MMU01@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Kirby writes - >Trying being highly verbose for a change, if you want me to even have a >clue what your beef is with my pro-computers-in-education agenda. I'm >going to stop butting heads with you until I at least have a better >understanding of what gives you nightmares. Thinking that what I have to say needs more verbiage is perhaps giving me too much credit. If you judge there to be little difference between holding the old Life magazine in one's hand, with its address label peeling, and retrieving an image of it from a database and viewing it on a computer screen than you would be correct in judging that I am saying very little. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Sat Apr 16 09:46:31 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sat Apr 16 09:46:47 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF000731MMU01@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050416074645.E89501E4007@bag.python.org> > If you judge there to be little difference between holding the old Life > magazine in one's hand, with its address label peeling, > and retrieving an image of it from a database and viewing it on a computer > screen than you would be correct in judging that I am saying very little. > > Art There's a difference sure. Not all kids are lucky enough to have direct access to originals -- Vatican Library a case in point. What you get in cyberspace may well be "second best" in many cases. But then, considering the situation globally, the choice is often between "second best" and "none at all." Speaking of Shakespeare, I think the computer has brought us as close as we've ever come to Prospero's books. Check Google if the allusion isn't clear. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Apr 16 15:29:55 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Apr 16 15:32:07 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF100F1549VJT@mta25.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IF100B0VK8ZQC@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E > > > There's a difference sure. Not all kids are lucky enough to have direct > access to originals -- Vatican Library a case in point. What you get in > cyberspace may well be "second best" in many cases. But then, considering > the situation globally, the choice is often between "second best" and > "none > at all." I think if you took a harder look at the bandwagon of desktops on each students station you would conclude that the effect in practice will be second best at the expense of something better in a large percentage of the cases - and even worse, standardization around all of these compromises. What seems to entice you is in recognizing the technology as disruptive, and therefore an opportunity around which to organize change. And I recognize how seductive that opportunity seems. And sympathize. But disagree, based not on a judgment as to your intentions. Inadvertently, in my view, you are drumming in beat with folks looking to provide simple answers to complex questions, and for the wrong reasons. And diverting our attention - this thread being an example. > > Speaking of Shakespeare, I think the computer has brought us as close as > we've ever come to Prospero's books. Check Google if the allusion isn't > clear. Google. Humbug. I'll walk to the library. ;) Art > > Kirby > > From rsenra at acm.org Sat Apr 16 15:25:46 2005 From: rsenra at acm.org (Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra) Date: Sat Apr 16 15:42:04 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050415181023.472DC1E4006@bag.python.org> References: <0IF000JYU0X15Q@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20050415181023.472DC1E4006@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20050416102546.614b7068@Goku> [ "Kirby Urner" ] ----------------------------------------------- | And yet the respective communities, the experts in these fields, scarcely | talk to one another. Each takes a huge amount for granted, and in polite | company, they don't mix. They speak to their own. This is part of what | we'd like to address, and technology has a role to play in building bridges. | Computers: a product of engineering, connected to the world's libraries, a | tool for writers, mathematicians, graphic artists alike. How many tools in | our culture cross so many lines? | For me, the key questions all revolve around how to best take advantage of | computers, not on whether to use them or not use them. We're going to use | them -- that's a premise I start from. "Indeed!"*3 Some lurker support ;o) cheers, Senra -- ,_ | ) Rodrigo Senra |(______ ----------------------------------------------- _( (|__|] GPr Sistemas http://www.gpr.com.br _ | (|___|] Blog http://rodsenra.blogspot.com ___ (|__|] IC - Unicamp http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 L___(|_|] ----------------------------------------------- From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Apr 16 16:35:23 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Apr 16 16:37:32 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050416102546.614b7068@Goku> Message-ID: <0IF1003X1NAQ3J@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > > | For me, the key questions all revolve around how to best take advantage > of > | computers, not on whether to use them or not use them. We're going to > use > | them -- that's a premise I start from. > > "Indeed!"*3 > > Some lurker support ;o) > > cheers, > Senra We are all in agreement .. to the extent that part of the analysis, experimentation process fully realizes that part of taking advantage of computers is in putting them aside appropriately. That's the hardest part, the part that takes the most discipline - especially for geeks, or so it seems to me. If I didn't "get" what Kirby might mean in referencing the potential use of computers by teachers presenting Shakespeare, then I simply would not be getting it. I think I do in fact get it - get it enough to believe that my kicking and screaming in opposition/question to where this is taking us is not a total waste of bandwidth. Art From rsenra at acm.org Sat Apr 16 17:01:54 2005 From: rsenra at acm.org (Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra) Date: Sat Apr 16 16:58:55 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF1003X1NAQ3J@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20050416102546.614b7068@Goku> <0IF1003X1NAQ3J@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050416120154.3fb19355@Goku> [ Kirby ] --------- | > | For me, the key questions all revolve around how to best take advantage | > of | > | computers, not on whether to use them or not use them. We're going to | > use | > | them -- that's a premise I start from. | > [ me ] ------ | > "Indeed!"*3 [ Arthur ] ---------- | We are all in agreement .. to the extent that part of the analysis, | experimentation process fully realizes that part of taking advantage of | computers is in putting them aside appropriately. That's the hardest part, | the part that takes the most discipline - especially for geeks, or so it | seems to me. One geek "Indeed!" for you too. ;o) [ Arthur ] ---------- | I think I do in fact get it - get it enough to believe that my | kicking and screaming in opposition/question to where this is taking us is | not a total waste of bandwidth. Myself being a shy-geek and all that jazz I'd like to add that the exposure to computers have expanded my social network cross-country over the seas, it lead me to give speeches to large audiences (mostly about Python) and to become a part-time teacher. All of that goes contrary to my parents expectations regarding the time I spent with computers during my teenage years. Moreover, the OpenSource/FreeSoftware rescued some moral values semi-forgotten by corporations, governments and *perhaps* even the scientific community. So, I do not think that "putting computers aside" should be a major concern from the social nor from the ecological POV. I'll make an exception for those with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome symptons ;o) best regards, Rod Senra -- ,_ | ) Rodrigo Senra |(______ ----------------------------------------------- _( (|__|] GPr Sistemas http://www.gpr.com.br _ | (|___|] Blog http://rodsenra.blogspot.com ___ (|__|] IC - Unicamp http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 L___(|_|] ----------------------------------------------- From missive at hotmail.com Sat Apr 16 18:07:33 2005 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Sat Apr 16 18:07:35 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E Message-ID: >Where is the balance we must strike between > experiment, see new things, and play! >and > practice to assimilate new patterns, forms, and structures >and > identifying and meeting goals for learning It is interesting. We need to be more intentional with learning. I see so many students struggling with math, and I believe the problem is that they just see it as one more thing to learn. As if memorizing the quadratic formula is all there is to it, when in fact that is just the first step. Is memorizing the quadratic formula important? Heck yeah. Now what? Start playing. You might even find something interesting. huh... what does sqrt(-17) mean? >>>a=5+3j >>>a (5+3j) >>>sqrt(a) Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? TypeError: can't convert complex to float; use abs(z) >>>a=0+3j >>>a 3j >>>sqrt(a) Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? TypeError: can't convert complex to float; use abs(z) >>>a=-10+0j >>>sqrt(a) Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? TypeError: can't convert complex to float; use abs(z) >>>abs(a) 10.0 >>>def _sqrt(real): ... if real >= 0: ... return sqrt(real) ... else: ... return sqrt(-real) * (0+1j) ... >>>_sqrt(-10) 3.1622776601683795j _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Apr 16 18:29:45 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Apr 16 18:31:55 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050416120154.3fb19355@Goku> Message-ID: <0IF100KV5SLBAH@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra [mailto:rsenra@acm.org] > To: Arthur > Myself being a shy-geek and all that jazz I'd like to add that the > exposure > to computers have expanded my social network cross-country over the seas, > it lead me to give speeches to large audiences (mostly about Python) and > to become a part-time teacher. All of that goes contrary to my parents > expectations > regarding the time I spent with computers during my teenage years. I identify myself as part of the Python community, with a particular interest in the utilization of Python in education. And I see no conflict between that and anything else I have said or am saying. If I approach all this as a Python enthused strategist, rather than as a critic, everything is still the same to me. Which is why I am comfortable with what I am doing. My intention is not to be defeatist or disruptive. If we are to make the argument in favor of wider programming education, it is a serious enough proposal (to me), so that it should be made with in a way that is consistent with that seriousness. Sorry to harp, but counting roses in Shakespeare does not pass the smell test there. If we are up against the problem that programming proficiency is only a demonstrable asset when approaching subjects like science, math, and engineering and we get diverted because those are "boy" subjects, or "too serious", or "who cares" and such like - we can collaborate with that critique or we can take it on. I would prefer to take it on. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Apr 16 19:23:17 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Apr 16 19:25:26 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050416120154.3fb19355@Goku> Message-ID: <0IF1003BAV39KG@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >I would prefer to take it on. Putting it tersely - distancing Python from math and science education is the wrong strategy - both for Python and for math and science education. And to the extent that CP4E seems to have become - rightly or wrongly - identifiable with that strategy, it most go away. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Apr 16 20:02:15 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Apr 16 20:04:23 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF1003BAV39KG@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IF1005YEWV8O5@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > To: 'Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra'; 'Arthur' > >I would prefer to take it on. > > Putting it tersely - distancing Python from math and science education is > the wrong strategy - both for Python and for math and science education. > And > to the extent that CP4E seems to have become - rightly or wrongly - > identifiable with that strategy, it most go away. Imagine my position for the last 5 years. With my (conservative enough) imagination bursting with the possibilities a tool like Python might play in the rehabilitation, revitalization and revolutionization of math and science education. On what I think are good grounds. What an enormous, audacious claim to be making. And I end up feeling isolated in the Python community because I am not properly recognizing its potential for rehabilitating, revitalizing, and revolutionizing everything else there is. I am selling it short. ARghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Apr 16 23:15:03 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Apr 16 23:17:13 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050416120154.3fb19355@Goku> Message-ID: <0IF20036Q5RJ4F@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Rodrigo writes - > Moreover, the OpenSource/FreeSoftware rescued some moral values semi- > forgotten > by corporations, governments and *perhaps* even the scientific community. Why can't we look at this more like an operating system? Corporations haven't forgotten much of anything. They have consistently and always been in the "what's mine is mine" business - other corporations looking to make some of what is the other corporation's theirs. Competition ensues. It works and it doesn't work, together and at once. No beefs. The scientific community exists in corporations, in governments, and in academia. There is evidence that what has changed is the influence of corporations on the academic scientific community. Its about people, institutions and money. It does seem to smell a bit. Opensource in blue suits (IBM reference) cannot be expected to be the same old opensource. For better and for worse. But then how much has changed, really? If my readings are right, Galileo did not invent the telescope. In fact his real contribution was in commercializing it. Which made not only him but other people some serious $. Which is in large part what gave him the clout that allowed him to stand up to the religious authorities of the day as long as he did - his real sin having been overplaying his hand, overestimating the power and the reach of his connections, and the subtext of all this being interpretable as a struggle between religious and commercial interests, with the scientific dispute the context or pretext. But I don't care what Kirby says, Alan Kay did not invent the printing press. ;) Art From rsenra at acm.org Sat Apr 16 23:55:46 2005 From: rsenra at acm.org (Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra) Date: Sat Apr 16 23:52:37 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF20036Q5RJ4F@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20050416120154.3fb19355@Goku> <0IF20036Q5RJ4F@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050416185546.15a15d1c@Goku> [ Arthur ] ----------------------------------------------- | Rodrigo writes - | | > Moreover, the OpenSource/FreeSoftware rescued some moral values semi- | > forgotten by corporations, governments and *perhaps* | > even the scientific community. More than one reply for my e-mail from the same person. I'm flattered Arthur. ;o) | Why can't we look at this more like an operating system? | Corporations haven't forgotten much of anything. Many times they forget that they are made of individuals, and that should be their most valuable assets. | They have consistently and always been in the "what's mine is mine" | business - other corporations looking to make | some of what is the other corporation's theirs. Competition ensues. It | works and it doesn't work, together and at once. I see your point. But I believe Corporations many times forget to look for win-win situations (John Nash comes to mind), or to examine the ecological/systemic [1] POV before defining their strategies. That attitude would not be against capitalist principles. | No beefs. I believe that the open-source/free-software movements are supported by the aforementioned entities (including Corporations). I dare to called it a beef. Sometimes who eats it is not the same person that pays for it, right ? But beef, nonetheless. | The scientific community exists in corporations, in governments, and in | academia. Sorry about my imprecise choice of words =) Thank you for the correction. Yet, that does not make any of my previous statement less true in my POV. | There is evidence that what has changed is the influence of corporations on | the academic scientific community. Its about people, institutions and | money. Agreed. | It does seem to smell a bit. Yep, but there is the yang and the yin side of it. | If my readings are right, Galileo did not invent the telescope. In fact his | real contribution was in commercializing it. Which made not only him but | other people some serious $. Which is in large part what gave him the clout | that allowed him to stand up to the religious authorities of the day as long | as he did - his real sin having been overplaying his hand, overestimating | the power and the reach of his connections, and the subtext of all this | being interpretable as a struggle between religious and commercial | interests, with the scientific dispute the context or pretext. What was *really* "invented" ? We talk about the (re-)invention of the wheel all the time. When was it invented, by whom ? And I look at the moon and it screams: "PLAGIARISM!" | But I don't care what Kirby says, Alan Kay did not invent the printing | press. ;) After all Kay has done, I can still respect him even without having done that. =o) cheers, Senra [1] By ecological/systemic perspectives I mean Fritjof Capra's arguments in "Turning Point" -- ,_ | ) Rodrigo Senra |(______ ----------------------------------------------- _( (|__|] GPr Sistemas http://www.gpr.com.br _ | (|___|] Blog http://rodsenra.blogspot.com ___ (|__|] IC - Unicamp http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 L___(|_|] ----------------------------------------------- From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 00:14:01 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 17 00:16:09 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050416185546.15a15d1c@Goku> Message-ID: <0IF200K0E8IBDU@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra [mailto:rsenra@acm.org] > Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 5:56 PM > To: Arthur > > I see your point. But I believe Corporations many times forget to > look for win-win situations (John Nash comes to mind), or to examine > the ecological/systemic [1] POV before defining their strategies. > That attitude would not be against capitalist principles. Well we haven't discussed governments. Let's assume corporations won't do the right (ecologically, for example) unless government makes them. And hopefully the government represents the people, and the people makes the government make them. It seems to work, in spurts, at least. Kirby and I have agreed off line that the system has allowed criminals too often to hide behind corporate shields, and crimes end up not being punished as they should. When the punishment for a crime becomes nothing more than a cost of business, then committing the crime can be a rational business decision. A system where committing crimes can become a rational business decision is not the best of systems. But there even seems to be improvement on this score. > > | No beefs. > What was *really* "invented" ? We talk about the (re-)invention of the > wheel > all the time. When was it invented, by whom ? Alan Kay, 4032B.C. Art From missive at hotmail.com Sun Apr 17 02:02:03 2005 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Sun Apr 17 02:02:06 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] RE: Beyond CP4E Message-ID: Looks like they're talking along these lines on slashdot today: http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/05/04/16/1752253.shtml _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Apr 17 08:10:47 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Apr 17 08:10:49 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF100B0VK8ZQC@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050417061048.6B75D1E4007@bag.python.org> > > Speaking of Shakespeare, I think the computer has brought us as close as > > we've ever come to Prospero's books. Check Google if the allusion isn't > > clear. > > Google. Humbug. I'll walk to the library. ;) > > Art > Your objections still seem awfully vague to me, more noise than substance. I can see you saying "I told you so" pretty much no matter what happens. I'm going to focus more on what looks promising to me and continue writing curriculum, field testing it when I get the opportunity, collaborating when possible -- somewhat as you do with PyGeo. This thread motivates me to look more into the humanities -- beyond just the Python madlibs I've been using with teens. Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Sun Apr 17 20:59:15 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Sun Apr 17 20:59:19 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF100KV5SLBAH@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050417185918.5F5181E4003@bag.python.org> > Sorry to harp, but counting roses in Shakespeare does not pass the smell > test there. > <> > Art A bit 'o searching on Google this AM: ===== """ The youth is praised not only for his beauty, but for inward truth as well. Those whose beauty is composed only of externalities are compared to wild and scentless roses, whereas those who have inward worth, like the youth, are compared to true roses, which are grown for their scent as much as for their looks. The comparison of the young man with a rose is a constant motif throughout the Sonnets, commencing with 1, then here, and in 67, 95, 98, 99, and 109. In 67 it is also combined with truth. """ [http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/54comm.htm ] A line-by-line commentary on Sonnet 54 follows. ====== Also if interest: Regular Expressions for Poets http://www.robotwisdom.com/net/regexps.html And how about this: visualizing social networks in Shakespeare's plays: http://www.jibble.org/shakespeare/ (links to animations -- I have social network in 'Anthony and Cleopatra' going in Media Player). Were you aware of: http://www.ach.org/ Interesting map: http://www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/allc/reports/map/mapframe.html Sample articles in Literary & Linguistic Computing: John Bonnett New Technologies, New Formalisms for Historians: The 3D Virtual Buildings Lit Linguist Computing 2004 19: 273-287; doi:10.1093/llc/19.3.273 Martyn Jessop The Visualization of Spatial Data in the Humanities Lit Linguist Computing 2004 19: 335-350; doi:10.1093/llc/19.3.335 Ron Van den Branden Electronic Texts in the Humanities. Principles and Practice Lit Linguist Computing 2004 19: 243-246; doi:10.1093/llc/19.2.243 Didn't have to walk to any library, and had I done so, I'd have likely just used Google there (Multnomah County Library, Belmont Branch isn't Firestone @ Princeton). Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 21:51:17 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 17 21:53:26 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF2000JYUHZUC@mta26.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IF300JA8WL6BW@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 2:11 AM > To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E > > > > Speaking of Shakespeare, I think the computer has brought us as close > as > > > we've ever come to Prospero's books. Check Google if the allusion > isn't > > > clear. > > > > Google. Humbug. I'll walk to the library. ;) > > > > Art > > > > Your objections still seem awfully vague to me, more noise than substance. How could it be otherwise? Haven't we - largely because of the power of the computer - learned about the pervasiveness and fundamental reality of non-linear systems. And isn't it clear that in talking about learning we are talking about (at least) non-linear processes. So that linear presentation cannot suffice. And so that a discussion in linear terms being a clear indication of oversimplification. And therefore not worth pursing. The philosophers tend to see ahead about. Is my intuition that this was in part what Wittgenstein was communicating in his non-linear fashion, totally off-base? Be that as it may, if you discount my efforts to communicate on the grounds on which you seem to be doing so, you are leaving the field to the linearists. A mistake. It is true that I don't know more than they do. But would argue that I am exhibiting a more realistic grasp of what I (and they) don't know. Which - under the circumstance is something - an important something. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 22:28:31 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 17 22:30:41 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF300JA8WL6BW@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IF3004XZYAJWT@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org > Be that as it may, if you discount my efforts to communicate on the > grounds > on which you seem to be doing so, you are leaving the field to the > linearists. A mistake. It is true that I don't know more than they do. > But > would argue that I am exhibiting a more realistic grasp of what I (and > they) > don't know. Which - under the circumstance is something - an important > something. Which is why I suspect that it is not uncommon that I find myself aligned on issues with the religionists. We come to humility from different directions, perhaps. But it's where we end up together. Growing up, I was always resentful that it seemed to be the blustering braggart who got the girl. Confidence! Confidence is easy, if you ignore enough of what's around you. I have no confidence in anything I am saying. Or in PyGeo, for that matter. Too smart for that. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 23:04:17 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 17 23:06:28 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF3004XZYAJWT@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IF300DBDZYOO1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 4:29 PM > To: 'Arthur'; 'Kirby Urner'; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E > > > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > > To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org > Confidence is easy, if you ignore enough of what's around you. > > I have no confidence in anything I am saying. Or in PyGeo, for that > matter. > > Too smart for that. But in truth I have more confidence in what I am saying that what I hear Kirby and many others saying, only because they sound to me too confident in what they are saying. And I am only confident that there is no sound basis for this kind of confidence. But because since I am confident - at least this far - we can be sure that I am wrong, as well. Non-linear dynamics in action. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 23:26:30 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 17 23:28:39 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E Message-ID: <0IF400D5P0ZPS6@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Via Lee's cite I come to learn ( I really already knew) that my friends at Apple are quite confident they have the issues licked. http://www.apple.com/education/digitalkids/ Blustering braggarts that they are. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 23:40:23 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun Apr 17 23:43:06 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF300BK5U2S0R@mta13.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <0IF400L2H1N0RV@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk@qwest.net] > To: 'Arthur'; 'Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra' > > The comparison of the young man with a rose is a constant motif throughout > the Sonnets, commencing with 1, then here, and in 67, 95, 98, 99, and 109. > In 67 it is also combined with truth. > """ This is a road more sensitive than politics and religion. In my class we go to see Othello with Olivier as Iago, and the student that boos when he comes out for his bow after the play, gets the A. ARt From missive at hotmail.com Sun Apr 17 23:53:07 2005 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Sun Apr 17 23:53:10 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E Message-ID: >Via Lee's cite I come to learn ( I really already knew) that my friends at >Apple are quite confident they have the issues licked. > >http://www.apple.com/education/digitalkids/ > Reading through there reminds me of an interview with some young people that I saw a few weeks ago... 60 minutes or 20/20 maybe. The thing that I remember was one of the kids saying something along the lines of "today everyone is above average" and everyone else nodding in agreement. Blink. _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From chandrakirti at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 00:56:39 2005 From: chandrakirti at gmail.com (Lloyd Hugh Allen) Date: Mon Apr 18 00:56:42 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24d253d905041715564c7d99b@mail.gmail.com> Ummmm....topic? I don't want to add another post to this thread, because it has gone long enough. And I don't want to be that guy, but if it goes much further, then (not that anyone else should care) I may go ahead and put myself on hiatus from this sig for a while. Gmail treats threads really well, so it's easy to go back and look at posting patterns. There seems to be a lot of the-same-person-making-five-posts-in-a-row, and then someone else doing the same thing. And Python has been mentioned only tangentially over the last several posts. I would really like to actively read this sig, because next semester I'm going to be using Python as a vehicle for something like half of the first quarter of a semester-long Survey of Programming Languages course at the high school level, for students who have already taken a mandatory year-long course in Java (the choice of language for the year-long course was determined by the language on the AP Comp Sci course). I also recognize that I sometimes veer away from our Objective myself, and that every once in a while I probably reply to myself, myself. And I hope that I don't sound self-righteous. But I would suggest that this thread may (recently) have had a bit more noise than signal, at least according to the kind of traffic that I was expecting to hear. Thanks, sorry if I have offended, Lloyd From chuck at freshsources.com Mon Apr 18 00:57:14 2005 From: chuck at freshsources.com (Chuck Allison) Date: Mon Apr 18 00:57:20 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF300DBDZYOO1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IF300DBDZYOO1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <1247046126.20050417165714@freshsources.com> Hello Arthur, Boy this is getting thick! Confident humility is quite attainable. (Just ask me :-). (Please forgive the top-post. And being new here, let me self-introduce: I'm a college CS professor (with 20 years development experience) trying to get Python in our curriculum (with some success), a colleague of and co-author with Bruce Eckel, and attended my first PyCon last month, at his invitation). Perhaps we can switch for a moment to the task of trying to squeeze Python into an already crowded curriculum to teach CS1. Any ideas would be appreciated. My main obstacle is to get consensus from the rest of the faculty (they don't know Python). -- Best regards, Chuck Allison Sunday, April 17, 2005, 3:04:17 PM, you wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] >> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 4:29 PM >> To: 'Arthur'; 'Kirby Urner'; edu-sig@python.org >> Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E >> >> > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] >> > To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org >> Confidence is easy, if you ignore enough of what's around you. >> >> I have no confidence in anything I am saying. Or in PyGeo, for that >> matter. >> >> Too smart for that. A> But in truth I have more confidence in what I am saying that what I hear A> Kirby and many others saying, only because they sound to me too confident in A> what they are saying. A> And I am only confident that there is no sound basis for this kind of A> confidence. A> But because since I am confident - at least this far - we can be sure that A> I am wrong, as well. A> Non-linear dynamics in action. A> Art A> _______________________________________________ A> Edu-sig mailing list A> Edu-sig@python.org A> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Apr 18 01:52:55 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Apr 18 01:55:06 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <1247046126.20050417165714@freshsources.com> Message-ID: <0IF40023T7SPWK@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Allison [mailto:chuck@freshsources.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 6:57 PM > To: Arthur > Cc: 'Kirby Urner'; edu-sig@python.org > Subject: Re[2]: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E > > Hello Arthur, > > Boy this is getting thick! Confident humility is quite attainable. > If I attained it, how hard can it be? Humble, right? > > (Please forgive the top-post. And being new here, let me > self-introduce: I'm a college CS professor (with 20 years development > experience) trying to get Python in our curriculum (with some > success), a colleague of and co-author with Bruce Eckel, and attended > my first PyCon last month, at his invitation). > > Perhaps we can switch for a moment to the task of trying to squeeze > Python into an already crowded curriculum to teach CS1. Any ideas > would be appreciated. My main obstacle is to get consensus from the > rest of the faculty (they don't know Python). Intuitional answer ... Sneak it in through a course focusing on algorithms. Maybe ala David Eppstein: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/teach.html Art > > -- > Best regards, > Chuck Allison > > Sunday, April 17, 2005, 3:04:17 PM, you wrote: > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > >> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 4:29 PM > >> To: 'Arthur'; 'Kirby Urner'; edu-sig@python.org > >> Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] re: Beyond CP4E > >> > >> > From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net] > >> > To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org > >> Confidence is easy, if you ignore enough of what's around you. > >> > >> I have no confidence in anything I am saying. Or in PyGeo, for that > >> matter. > >> > >> Too smart for that. > > A> But in truth I have more confidence in what I am saying that what I > hear > A> Kirby and many others saying, only because they sound to me too > confident in > A> what they are saying. > > A> And I am only confident that there is no sound basis for this kind of > A> confidence. > > A> But because since I am confident - at least this far - we can be sure > that > A> I am wrong, as well. > > A> Non-linear dynamics in action. > > A> Art > > > A> _______________________________________________ > A> Edu-sig mailing list > A> Edu-sig@python.org > A> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From john.zelle at wartburg.edu Mon Apr 18 02:13:53 2005 From: john.zelle at wartburg.edu (John Zelle) Date: Mon Apr 18 02:14:56 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Squeezing Python into CS1 (was Beyond CP4E) In-Reply-To: <1247046126.20050417165714@freshsources.com> References: <0IF300DBDZYOO1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1247046126.20050417165714@freshsources.com> Message-ID: <4262FBC1.7090603@wartburg.edu> Hello Chuck, Welcome aboard. I'm a fan and user of the "Thinking in" series so I'm pleased to meet you (virtually, that is). As far as your question about how to convince others to give Python a try, I think you already hit one of the nails on the head when you wrote of the "crowded" CS1 curriculum. One of the main reasons for switching to Python is that it clears a lot of room to talk about what's really important in CS1, namely algorithmic thinking and problem solving. In fact, I frequently argue that Python allows you to "squeeze" the most out of CS1. Python greatly simplifies syntax, memory-model, parameter passing, class declaration/use, and collections, to name just a few off the top of my head. It does this w/o sacrificing any power, and it is a real-world language to boot. In my experience compared to languages like Java and C++, students have anywhere from 30-50% more time to actually use their skills and practice solving problems. We routinely have our students do 20-25 progamming projects in a semester of CS1. Another advantage to stress is the ease of experimentation. The simplicity of Python code means students can and will try out multiple approaches. In Java, students are loathe to tinker with a program that compiles. I would also point out that I've never heard of any program that tried Python in the early classes and regretted it. It really does have compelling advantages. The beauty of Python is that one can become proficient in only a few weeks' effort. If you get your fellow faculty to try Python, I'm sure they'll be amazed at how quickly they pick it up. I know folks who have been teaching C++ for years, but still do not really know the language well (myself included). And of course, Java 1.5 is a bit of a new beast as well. Plus, there are some good Python textbooks out there now ;-). --John Chuck Allison wrote: > Hello Arthur, > > Boy this is getting thick! Confident humility is quite attainable. > > (Just ask me :-). > > (Please forgive the top-post. And being new here, let me > self-introduce: I'm a college CS professor (with 20 years development > experience) trying to get Python in our curriculum (with some > success), a colleague of and co-author with Bruce Eckel, and attended > my first PyCon last month, at his invitation). > > Perhaps we can switch for a moment to the task of trying to squeeze > Python into an already crowded curriculum to teach CS1. Any ideas > would be appreciated. My main obstacle is to get consensus from the > rest of the faculty (they don't know Python). > -- John M. Zelle, Ph.D. Wartburg College Professor of Computer Science Waverly, IA john.zelle@wartburg.edu (319) 352-8360 From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Apr 18 03:48:50 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Mon Apr 18 03:51:00 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <24d253d905041715564c7d99b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0IF4003EID543J@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Lloyd Hugh Allen > I would really like to actively read this sig, because next semester > I'm going to be using Python as a vehicle for something like half of > the first quarter of a semester-long Survey of Programming Languages > course at the high school level, for students who have already taken a > mandatory year-long course in Java (the choice of language for the > year-long course was determined by the language on the AP Comp Sci > course). I would love it - believe it or not - if there was more traffic here that was responsive to your needs and expectations. If I am cluttering your mailbox I am sorry, but that is one kind of sin. If doing so is inhibiting the kind of discussion you expect or prefer, that is another, more serious kind of sin. If I thought that were true I wouldn't be being as I am. And if you can show me how that is true, I will stop. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Tue Apr 19 07:27:38 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Tue Apr 19 07:27:42 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] cross-posting from blog Message-ID: <20050419052740.3F8D61E4004@bag.python.org> Thursday, March 31, 2005 Thought for the Day Computers ended up giving us a whole new cast of bread and butter metaphysicians, people making their living in realms of abstraction with concrete consequences in code. When philosophers cranked up their propositional calculus and modal logic in the golden age of Principia Mathematica, they maybe expected such lines of work would be their legacy. But academic philosophy seems relatively stuck with old tools right now. Computer science is doing more of the heavy lifting. And what would mathematics be today, without Mathematica? Computers have changed the dialog among the disciplines. posted by Kirby at 9:56 AM 0 comments From ajsiegel at optonline.net Tue Apr 19 15:23:34 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Tue Apr 19 15:25:46 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] cross-posting from blog In-Reply-To: <20050419052740.3F8D61E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <0IF700FHA3YBS0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Kirby Urner > Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 1:28 AM > To: edu-sig@python.org > Subject: [Edu-sig] cross-posting from blog > Thought for the Day > > Computers ended up giving us a whole new cast of bread and butter > metaphysicians, people making their living in realms of abstraction with > concrete consequences in code. When philosophers cranked up their > propositional calculus and modal logic in the golden age of Principia > Mathematica, they maybe expected such lines of work would be their legacy. > But academic philosophy seems relatively stuck with old tools right now. > Computer science is doing more of the heavy lifting. And what would > mathematics be today, without Mathematica? Computers have changed the > dialog > among the disciplines. We're going to get in trouble... The little road show I did at a few college math departments with PyGeo surprised me, in the sense that they seemed more impressed with it they I would have expected them to be, and probably should have been. Let's say "it" being the ability to explore mathematical ideas in code. Which is one the reasons that Mathemtaica aside, I think there is work to be done. Goody. Art From andre.roberge at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 22:46:48 2005 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Roberge?=) Date: Tue Apr 19 22:48:56 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <0IF4003EID543J@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <24d253d905041715564c7d99b@mail.gmail.com> <0IF4003EID543J@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: Arthur wrote: > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On >>Behalf Of Lloyd Hugh Allen > > > >>I would really like to actively read this sig, because next semester >>I'm going to be using Python as a vehicle for something like half of >>the first quarter of a semester-long Survey of Programming Languages >>course at the high school level, for students who have already taken a >>mandatory year-long course in Java (the choice of language for the >>year-long course was determined by the language on the AP Comp Sci >>course). > > > I would love it - believe it or not - if there was more traffic here that > was responsive to your needs and expectations. > > If I am cluttering your mailbox I am sorry, but that is one kind of sin. If > doing so is inhibiting the kind of discussion you expect or prefer, that is > another, more serious kind of sin. If I thought that were true I wouldn't > be being as I am. And if you can show me how that is true, I will stop. > > Art As someone who has been reading messages on this Special Interest Group for a little less than a year, I only contributed to two threads where I felt I had something relevant to the purpose of this group. At times, I felt exasperated with some irrelevant discussions that were taking place, making it difficult to find the needle of interest among the haystack of prolixity. To quote from the Python site: ===== Edu-sig provides an informal venue for comparing notes and discussing future possibilities for Python in education. ... Membership includes, but is not limited to, educators using Python in their courses, independent developers, and authors of educational materials. Discussion focuses on Python use at all levels, from beginning to advanced applications. ====== While I have felt that some interesting points on other topics were sometimes raised, I felt that the noise/signal ratio has been rather high, where noise = topics unrelated to Python use signal = topics related to Python use. I am convinced that more interesting and relevant discussions would take place if posters were to adhere more closely to the purpose of this SIG. I apologize for submitting a Python unrelated-post. Sincerely, Andr? Roberge From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Apr 20 00:04:18 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel@optonline.net) Date: Wed Apr 20 00:04:30 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E Message-ID: <19b2e4919b5a63.19b5a6319b2e49@optonline.net> > I am convinced that more interesting and relevant discussions > would take > place if posters were to adhere more closely to the purpose of > this SIG. When a professor (and author) asks for advice/ideas on getting Python on the agenda in the CSI department of his school, he gets 2 responses - from the usual suspects. IOW, the things that one would expect to generate discussion here - seem not to. The other way to improve the noise/signal ratio is more signal. Either way - I think I have made most of the noise I feel I will need to - so things should improve. Art From andre.roberge at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 01:07:54 2005 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Roberge?=) Date: Wed Apr 20 01:08:44 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Using Python in CS1 In-Reply-To: <1247046126.20050417165714@freshsources.com> References: <0IF300DBDZYOO1@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1247046126.20050417165714@freshsources.com> Message-ID: From time to time, the question of convincing colleagues to adopt Python as a teaching language in CS1 arises on this list. Here's something you might consider... In 1981, Richard Pattis wrote a delightful little book titled Karel the Robot, a Gentle Introduction to the Art of Programming. In this book, Pattis introduces the main concepts of sequential programming (including loops and decisions, but not variable assignments) using the paradigm of instructing a robot capable of only four basic actions (turning left, moving one step forward, picking up and putting down beepers). Through the "magic" of programming, the robot "learns" to combine those four basic actions in order to accomplish tasks of increasing complexity. Pattis used Pascal, the preferred language of the day, as a means of "teaching" the robot new tricks. Since then, many new versions of Karel the Robot have surfaced, used to introduce students to various computer languages, with a preference for Java and C++, which are both based on the modern Object-oriented programming (OOP) approach. However, the complexity of Java and C++ contrasts with the simplicity of the robot world; both these languages seem at odds with the idea of providing a Gentle Introduction to the Art of Programming. Enter Python... Python, like Java and C++, is an OOP language. However Python also allows a non-OOP programming style which is more suitable for interacting with Pattis's robot. A first implementation of Karel the Robot in Python was called PyKarel. The current implementation is called Guido van Robot (GvR for short), and is available at sourceforge.net. While the included lessons have enough material for only about two weeks of classes, they do, imho, illustrate (to anyone familiar with Karel the Robot in other languages) the advantage of using Python. ======== If you are still with me at this point.... Consider the following situations: 1) a nameless robot (like Pattis's Karel) is stuck in a maze. He looks for the exit in a random walk fashion. The exit is marked by a beeper. Solution: (example of procedural code; Look Before You Leap) # random maze solver # exit identified by beeper def turn_right(): turn_left() turn_left() turn_left() while True: if front_is_clear(): move() if next_to_a_beeper(): turn_off() # success! r = random() if r < 1./3: turn_left() elif r < 2./3: turn_right() # keeps the same direction if r > 2./3 (and < 1) ================== 2) a named Robot (instance of a class) is stuck in a maze. He looks for the exit in a random walk fashion. The exit is marked by a beeper. Solution: (example of oop code; Better to Ask Forgiveness than Permission) # random maze solver # exit identified by beeper Guido = BetterRobot() # knows how to turn right! while True: try: Guido.move() if Guido.next_to_a_beeper(): Guido.turn_off() # success! except HitWallException: pass n = Guido.throw_dice() if n in [1, 2]: Guido.turn_left() elif n in [3, 4]: Guido.turn_right() # keeps the same direction if n in [5, 6] ========================================= I believe that the above examples 1) are easily readable and understood (Python as pseudocode!) 2) illustrate different coding practices (procedural vs oop) without complicated syntax 3) illustrate different "philosophies" (LBYL vs BAFP) 4) are short enough to be used in a classroom situation Might they help in convincing colleagues of the advantage of using Python in CS1? Andr? Roberge ========= Disclaimer: you can't quite do the above two examples with Guido van Robot. A program similar to GvR, with supporting lessons, will soon be available "publicly" (and freely!) that supports the above code. From urnerk at qwest.net Wed Apr 20 18:46:08 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed Apr 20 18:46:12 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050420164611.148361E4002@bag.python.org> > I am convinced that more interesting and relevant discussions would take > place if posters were to adhere more closely to the purpose of this SIG. > > I apologize for submitting a Python unrelated-post. > > Sincerely, > > Andr? Roberge I understand this concern, and as probably the highest volume poster to edu-sig, feel I should say something germane. Have you looked a John Miller's PhD dissertation, Promoting Computer Literacy Through Programming Python (1.37 MB)? Linked from edu-sig home page. This 288 page work uses edu-sig posts as its raw material. Perhaps it went to our heads (such an honor for a list to be the focus of a PhD thesis!). Anyway, in my view it codifies the notion that our latitude was broad, and would likely stay broad. This broad focus is in keeping with Guido's original CP4E grant proposal as well, which I assume you've read. For example, per chapter 1, of interest is: what constitutes literacy in this day and age? The recent 'Beyond CP4E' thread might be construed as thinking around this issue. How do/will/should/could people in the humanities use Python, and how might our preparatory curricula anticipate their needs? Quoting from John's thesis: Certainly, in a formal programming course one wants students to learn programming by doing programming, lots of programming; however, eventually, learning to program may lead to a state of expertise in a student where he or she begins to use those programming skills in support of learning that is outside the context of the programming course. What the nature of that learning actually is is somewhat indistinct at the moment... What we do have, though, are clues from present occupational practices where professionals who have no specific training in computer science program their computers to accomplish tasks germane to their everyday work activities. (pg 42-43) However, this discussion is difficult to explore without getting into how computers and programming assist in these various fields *in general* i.e. sometimes we're not so Python-specific in our remarks, because the point is programming, more than Python. So we talk about different philosophies, general approaches, as embodied in Squeak (SmallTalk) for example, or ToonTalk, or the Scheme approach. In your own post following this one, you discuss the history of using "controlling a robot" as a central metaphor for programming (though you don't mention LISPish Logo, which is how most students in the USA were exposed to those concepts in the 1980s or so, with robot = turtle). Now there's a Python option in that tradition. However, to give GvR context, you found yourself telling a longer tale -- and that's as it should be (i.e. the background you provided was indeed relevant). Another case in point: I've been talking up the huge difference Google makes in research, in the humanities included. I gave illustrative output, the results of a short session, intersecting with our threads. Now, anyone who was at Pycon knows that Python is one of the 3 most important languages @ Google, and that SWIG is used to make a lot of the in-house C++ code accessible to Python, so I was ipso facto leveraging Python's power in doing these Google searches. But that was hardly the central thrust of that post. A logical segue (what I'd like to take up soon), is using the web services Google provides to Python clients, e.g. what might we do to hack google in a curriculum context? Another example of Python in the humanities: I've been serving as a mentor for Tim, an 8th grader who took on, as an independent learning project (ILP -- codified in the curriculum), creating a blog for Fr Bob. To this end, he downloaded and customized Pybloxsom, a Python blog. He themed the pages according to which holiday season we're in (Catholic calendar), plus did the work to put Pybloxsom on top of mod_python in Apache (a significant achievement!). The result is here: http://www.frbob.org/ (he also learned a great deal about DNS servers, in getting a registered domain to point to a dynamic IP number owned by Comcast). This was not for a computer science course. It was an ILP. One could argue this is Python at work in the humanities. Tim is pioneering in this and other directions. Anyway, what I *don't* want to see is this list confining itself to issues of how Python is/should/could be used or not used within CS curricula. That's a very valid set of threads which should be included, but they?re not what circumscribing outer limit of relevance IMO. I don't think the descriptions on the edu-sig page (which I wrote and maintain) may be construed to narrow us that much. Several of us also have web sites where we share materials that would take up much more bandwidth on edu-sig, i.e. it could be worse :-D. I want to personally thank you for your contributions to date, which have been pithy and on target. Kirby From chuck at freshsources.com Wed Apr 20 19:08:25 2005 From: chuck at freshsources.com (Chuck Allison) Date: Wed Apr 20 19:08:33 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050420164611.148361E4002@bag.python.org> References: <20050420164611.148361E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <42668C89.3070206@freshsources.com> Kirby Urner wrote: >Anyway, what I *don't* want to see is this list confining itself to issues >of how Python is/should/could be used or not used within CS curricula. >That's a very valid set of threads which should be included, but they?re not >what circumscribing outer limit of relevance IMO. I don't think the >descriptions on the edu-sig page (which I wrote and maintain) may be >construed to narrow us that much. > > > To clarify my original query, the course I was referring to was not actually in the CS curriculum per se; it is a service course (CS0) for our whole student body. It serves as an introduction to computers and computing, with the goal of introducing programming and algorithmic and logical thinking to some degree. It is not intended for CS majors. We expect and hope that the students' work in other areas will be enhanced by taking this course. Naturally, we also hope that some will decide to be CS majors :-). I have enjoyed all the posts on this forum. -- Chuck Allison From urnerk at python.org Wed Apr 20 22:18:25 2005 From: urnerk at python.org (Kirby Urner) Date: Wed Apr 20 22:18:29 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <7528bcdd05042011302fdab9bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050420201827.969B31E4002@bag.python.org> > While I understand the need to go beyond talking strictly about > Python, given the historical impetus of CP4E, I found that seemingly > neverending discussions "questioning" the relevance of using computers > in (name your topic or student age group of preference) were > "stretching" the limits of what should be acceptable topics of > discussion on this list. > > Andr? Fair enough and I appreciate the feedback. Kirby PS: I should note for the record that whereas I maintain the edu-sig page at the Python website, I am not the listowner for edu-sig. That'd be Timothy Wilson. From andre.roberge at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 23:45:55 2005 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Roberge?=) Date: Wed Apr 20 23:48:25 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: <20050420201827.969B31E4002@bag.python.org> References: <7528bcdd05042011302fdab9bb@mail.gmail.com> <20050420201827.969B31E4002@bag.python.org> Message-ID: On 4/20/05, Kirby Urner wrote: >>> > I am convinced that more interesting and relevant discussions would take >>> > place if posters were to adhere more closely to the purpose of this SIG. >>> > >>> > I apologize for submitting a Python unrelated-post. >>> > >>> > Sincerely, >>> > >>> > Andr? Roberge > >> >> I understand this concern, and as probably the highest volume poster to >> edu-sig, feel I should say something germane. >> [Snip ... lots of good relevant examples deleted.] >> Kirby >> If I didn't find discussions on this SIG of some interest I would 1) have given up reading it a long time ago 2) not bothered sending my "complaint" on the list. While I understand the need to go beyond talking strictly about Python, given the historical impetus of CP4E, I found that seemingly neverending discussions "questioning" the relevance of using computers in (name your topic or student age group of preference) were "stretching" the limits of what should be acceptable topics of discussion on this list. Andr? From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Apr 21 00:17:26 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Apr 21 00:19:35 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Beyond CP4E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0IF900E3FNCKZU@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Andr? Roberge > On 4/20/05, Kirby Urner wrote: > If I didn't find discussions on this SIG of some interest I would > > 1) have given up reading it a long time ago > 2) not bothered sending my "complaint" on the list. > > While I understand the need to go beyond talking strictly about > Python, given the historical impetus of CP4E, I found that seemingly > neverending discussions "questioning" the relevance of using computers > in (name your topic or student age group of preference) were > "stretching" the limits of what should be acceptable topics of > discussion on this list. I find it difficult to accept any topic as unacceptable. I do accept that repetition is boring. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Apr 21 01:02:32 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu Apr 21 01:04:43 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] FW: [Visualpython-users] python-visual in Debian archive Message-ID: <0IF90017VPG03T@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Floris copied this to edu-sig but not having seen it show up, I thought I should forward it. The PS is I think directed at a(nother) misstatement of mine, here. Art -----Original Message----- From: visualpython-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net [mailto:visualpython-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Floris Bruynooghe Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 8:43 PM To: VPython Users Cc: edu-sig@python.org Subject: [Visualpython-users] python-visual in Debian archive Hi Thought I'd let the intrested people know that the python-visual package is finally in the official Debian archive, it actually made it's way into sarge already. Many thanks to Jonas Smedegaard for adopting the package and making this possible. Floris PS: I never said I was an Ubuntu user... I just said I value the work they do. Eh well, my standard signature might give away my OS preference. ;-) -- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom www.debian.org | www.gnu.org | www.kernel.org ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: New Crystal Reports XI. Version 11 adds new functionality designed to reduce time involved in creating, integrating, and deploying reporting solutions. Free runtime info, new features, or free trial, at: http://www.businessobjects.com/devxi/728 _______________________________________________ Visualpython-users mailing list Visualpython-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users From gvwilson at cs.utoronto.ca Tue Apr 26 19:35:05 2005 From: gvwilson at cs.utoronto.ca (Greg Wilson) Date: Tue Apr 26 21:27:08 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] re: Data Crunching Message-ID: Readers of this newsgroup might be interested in a new book on data crunching, which is available from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0974514071 or directly from the Pragmatic Programmers: http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/gwd/index.html The book covers basic text processing, regular expressions, XML manipulation, binary data handling, and the 10% of relational databases that every programmer should know. Most of the examples are in Python (though Unix command line tools, XSL, and SQL are in there as well). The book is aimed at beginner and intermediate programmers; I hope everyone will find it useful. Thanks, Greg Wilson (its grinning author) From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Apr 29 07:49:35 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Apr 29 07:49:37 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Idle play Message-ID: <20050429054936.6CC221E4003@bag.python.org> Exciting, the new Python books in the pipe line. I've got an article on hypertoons queued, giving Pyzine first dibs. Just got off the phone with my friend Koski, a Fuller Schooler in Minneapolis. He was showing me some fun cartoons for cubing. Option 1: Consider a penny all alone (=1), then surrounded by a layer of six (=7 total), then surround by another layer of 12 (=19 total) and so on. Each consecutive layer is the next multiple of 6, always this growing hexagon. Now stack consecutive hexagons. You get this "Christmas Tree" with one ball to start at the top, then a layer of 7 below that, then 19, 37, 61... each of greater girth (hence the tree allusion), and always centered around a vertical spine or trunk of pennies (or marbles). Adding n consecutive layers of this Christmas Tree gives n**3. In Python: >>> def hex(n): """ Hexagon """ return 1 + sum([6*i for i in range(n)]) # i goes 0..(n-1) >>> [hex(x) for x in range(1,10)] # to David: x goes 1..9, 10 excluded >>> [1, 7, 19, 37, 61, 91, 127, 169, 217] >>> def tree(n): """ Stack of Hexagons """ return sum([hex(i) for i in range(1,n+1)]) # to n this time >>> [tree(x) for x in range(1,10)] [1, 8, 27, 64, 125, 216, 343, 512, 729] i.e. consecutive cubes. Option 2: Another way David talked about, to get cubes: n**3 = 6 * Tetra + n where Tetra is a tetrahedral number 0,1,4,10,20,35... We looked up Tetra here: http://www.research.att.com/cgi-bin/access.cgi/as/njas/sequences/eisA.cgi?An um=A000292 So... >>> def tetra(n): """ Tetrahedral numbers, with n=1 giving 0, n=2 giving 1... """ return ((n-1)*(n)*(n+1))/6 >>> [tetra(x) for x in range(1,10)] [0, 1, 4, 10, 20, 35, 56, 84, 120] >>> def cube(n): """ n**3 - n is 6 times a tetrahedral number """ return 6*tetra(n) + n >>> [cube(n) for n in range(1,10)] [1, 8, 27, 64, 125, 216, 343, 512, 729] This is idle yet creative play, not super deep math, but still good exercise. An interactive shell makes it fun/accessible. Having geometric cartoons on the side, to show the trees, hexagons, tetrahedral, would add to the experience, to where eventually the imagination could take over (David has a good imagination). Kirby From andre.roberge at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 09:20:39 2005 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Roberge?=) Date: Fri Apr 29 09:20:44 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Idle play In-Reply-To: <20050429054936.6CC221E4003@bag.python.org> References: <20050429054936.6CC221E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: Kirby Urner wrote: [snip...] > > Adding n consecutive layers of this Christmas Tree gives n**3. > The first thing that came to my mind is Pascal's triangle; adding the number on the n_th line gives 2^n. > We looked up Tetra here: > > http://www.research.att.com/cgi-bin/access.cgi/as/njas/sequences/eisA.cgi?An > um=A000292 > Great link! I especially like, given my previous observation, the following: ===== Consider the square array 1 2 3 4 5 6... 2 4 6 8 10 12... 3 6 9 12 16 20... 4 8 12 16 20 24... 5 10 15 20 25 30... ... then a(n) = sum of n-th antidiagonal. - Amarnath Murthy (amarnath_murthy(AT)yahoo.com), Apr 06 2003 ===== I was thinking a few days ago of writing a *recursive* function to create Pascal's triangle ... as an alternative example to the traditional Fibonacci's numbers. I suspect (and will have to spend some time reading!) that the link you gave may provide a lot of potential examples of recursive functions. I always found that, using only fib(n) as an example of recursion was not very inspiring. Andr? From andre.roberge at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 09:34:57 2005 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Roberge?=) Date: Fri Apr 29 09:34:50 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Idle play In-Reply-To: <20050429054936.6CC221E4003@bag.python.org> References: <20050429054936.6CC221E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: Kirby Urner wrote: [snip] > Another way David talked about, to get cubes: > > n**3 = 6 * Tetra + n where Tetra is a tetrahedral number 0,1,4,10,20,35... > > We looked up Tetra here: > > http://www.research.att.com/cgi-bin/access.cgi/as/njas/sequences/eisA.cgi?An > um=A000292 > Another relevant page (with a picture) from the same site is: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/demo3.html (Darn, I'm breaking my own rule: no reference to python in this message ;-) Andr? From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Apr 29 13:25:49 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri Apr 29 13:25:55 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Idle play In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0IFP00CLRH38D9@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On > Behalf Of Andr? Roberge > Kirby Urner wrote: > [snip...] > > I was thinking a few days ago of writing a *recursive* function to > create Pascal's triangle ... as an alternative example to the > traditional Fibonacci's numbers. I suspect (and will have to spend > some time reading!) that the link you gave may provide a lot of > potential examples of recursive functions. I always found that, using > only fib(n) as an example of recursion was not very inspiring. Those of us with commitment to connecting programming and the humanities ;) might hope that in introuding Pascal's triangles we would not altogether miss the opportunity to put Pascal's insights in the context of his life and times, and broader interests in religion and philosophy. http://www.maths.tcd.ie/pub/HistMath/People/Pascal/RouseBall/RB_Pascal.html As well as his further contributions to mathematics and its development: Pascal's theorem being foundational in the development of projective geometry: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PascalsTheorem.html It is truly bizarre to me that I can say this and actually believe it, but it *is* true that I am unaware of a tool available that can better illustrate Pascal's Theorem (because it does so dynamically, and for the full range of conics - by allowing the conic to form as a projection of a circle onto an arbitrary and dynamically movable plane in space) than does PyGeo. To break no rules - PyGeo is written in Python. In my case, necessarily. Art From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Apr 29 15:32:11 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Apr 29 15:32:12 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Idle play In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050429133211.56A8D1E4003@bag.python.org> > I always found that, using only fib(n) as an example of > recursion was not very inspiring. > > Andr? I agree. Plus the more honest CS books usually let you in on the fact that the simplest recursive fib algorithms are horribly inefficient, i.e. compute the same values more than once etc. A straightforward iterative solution is better (preferably using a generator ;-D). Kirby From urnerk at qwest.net Fri Apr 29 15:47:54 2005 From: urnerk at qwest.net (Kirby Urner) Date: Fri Apr 29 15:48:13 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Idle play In-Reply-To: <0IFP00CLRH38D9@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050429134811.DE2011E4003@bag.python.org> > To break no rules - PyGeo is written in Python. In my case, necessarily. > > > Art Good theorem. In a newbie geometry class, I wish they'd run through a lot more like Pascal's (mention his age when he hit on it), using something a lot like PyGeo (or just use PyGeo why not?). A big thing for me, before getting into proofs, is to just make clear what a theorem *asserts* (pretty clear in this case, not always so obvious). I think too often we're in too big a rush to deal with the proof (which is likely pre-supplied, if the theorem is old and/or interesting). But with newbies, let's just linger on the wealth of assertions in our treasure chest (like this one from Pascal). That'd built up interest and appreciation for what the millennia have bequeathed to us. Proofs later (e.g. I like Karl von Staudt's re V + F = E + 2). Another example: Fermat's Little Theorem (not Last, although that's a good one too), itself a special case of one of Euler's: Fermat: if gcd(b,p) == 1 and p prime: assert pow(b, p-1, p) == 1. Or Euler's: if gcd(b,n) == 1: assert pow(b, tot(n), n) == 1, where tot(n) = len([x in range(1, n) if gcd(x, n)==1]) -- see 'totatives' at MathWorld. Note that I'm deliberately using Python as my language of expression for these proofs. In the geometry/programming course I'm imagining, that'd make oh-so-much sense. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Apr 30 00:18:30 2005 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat Apr 30 00:18:29 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Idle play In-Reply-To: <0IFP00GQFNOA7X@mta25.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IFP00GQFNOA7X@mta25.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4272B2B6.9040205@optonline.com> Kirby Urner wrote: >>To break no rules - PyGeo is written in Python. In my case, necessarily. >> >> >>Art >> >> > >Good theorem. In a newbie geometry class, I wish they'd run through a lot >more like Pascal's (mention his age when he hit on it), using something a >lot like PyGeo (or just use PyGeo why not?). > > Why not PyGeo? Because you can only create with it by writing in Python, and Python has significant white space ;) And no buttons. >A big thing for me, before getting into proofs, is to just make clear what a >theorem *asserts* (pretty clear in this case, not always so obvious). > >I think too often we're in too big a rush to deal with the proof (which is >likely pre-supplied, if the theorem is old and/or interesting). But with >newbies, let's just linger on the wealth of assertions in our treasure chest >(like this one from Pascal). > Inductive math is legit. So says G. Polya in "Induction and Analogy in Mathematics -- a guide to the art of plausible reasonning" http://www.sci.uidaho.edu/polya/biography.htm From the preface: "A mathematical proof is demonstrative reasoning, but the inductive evidence of the physicist, the circumstantial evidence of the lawyer, the documentatry evidence of the historian, and the statistical evidence of the economist belong to plausible reasoning." "Everyone knows that mathematics offers an excellant opportunity to learn deomonstrative reasoning, but I contend also that there is no subject in the usual curricula of the schools that affords a comparable opportunity to learn plausible reasoning" I agree with Polya, and think it particularly relevant to computers and math as I think that computers - again thinking of graphics mostly - is more, to me, a weapon for inductive, than deductive, mathmatics Art From dblank at brynmawr.edu Sat Apr 30 18:01:53 2005 From: dblank at brynmawr.edu (Douglas S. Blank) Date: Sat Apr 30 18:02:30 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for CS101 Message-ID: <4273ABF1.3050506@brynmawr.edu> Edu-sig members, I am proposing that we move our intro courses at Bryn Mawr College to Python. Although I have been using Python for a few years, and have used it in the upper-level courses for teaching robotics, I haven't taught an intro course with it. I am now responding to my colleagues' questions. If you have useful comments, or if you have questions too, please feel free to add them here: http://emergent.brynmawr.edu/emergent/PythonForCS or send them to me (or post them here). I hope when this process is complete, this data will be useful for others ready to make the plunge. Thanks for any feedback, -Doug PS - you'll have to make an account on the wiki; sorry but that cuts down on the kiddie hackers, and only makes it slightly less wiki (wiki wiki is "quick" in Hawaiian). -- Douglas S. Blank, Assistant Professor dblank@brynmawr.edu, (610)526-6501 Bryn Mawr College, Computer Science Program 101 North Merion Ave, Park Science Bld. Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 dangermouse.brynmawr.edu From chandrakirti at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 18:31:36 2005 From: chandrakirti at gmail.com (Lloyd Hugh Allen) Date: Sat Apr 30 18:31:38 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for CS101 In-Reply-To: <4273ABF1.3050506@brynmawr.edu> References: <4273ABF1.3050506@brynmawr.edu> Message-ID: <24d253d905043009316a861d6c@mail.gmail.com> The faq says: 8. What impact will this have on the following courses? In upper-level courses, we wouldn't be able to assume that the students know Java, C++, or C. We are planning on teaching memory management and compiling issues in our Programming Paradigms course. 9. What about the AP exams? If students have experience in Java, having Python in the introductory course is a reason that they may still want to take it, rather than testing out of it. --- I think it's worthwhile to say that Python has much less overhead than Java. It's a useful instructional language because you need only the structure that you are trying to teach at that particular moment; in Java, it's necessary to wrap ANY useful code in a class in order to compile. This wastes time on the first day of CS 101, and is viewed by new programmers as confusing magic. If students learn Python first, classes can be introduced after basic concepts (functions, variable assignment) have been developed. Then when students transition to java et al., classes will be old friends, and instantiating them will be old hat. I am not saying that students will not continue to use Python, but I am saying that Python-proficient students will pick up advanced features of other languages more quickly. Programmers should use whatever language is most appropriate for the current task, and http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#skills1 . (My intentention with my own course this fall is to start with Python, then repeat the problem sets with C (as the students already have Java), perhaps intermingled with http://www.eblong.com/zarf/zplet/lists.html ) On 30/04/05, Douglas S. Blank wrote: > Edu-sig members, > > I am proposing that we move our intro courses at Bryn Mawr College to > Python. Although I have been using Python for a few years, and have > used it in the upper-level courses for teaching robotics, I haven't > taught an intro course with it. > > I am now responding to my colleagues' questions. If you have useful > comments, or if you have questions too, please feel free to add them here: > > http://emergent.brynmawr.edu/emergent/PythonForCS > > or send them to me (or post them here). I hope when this process is > complete, this data will be useful for others ready to make the plunge. > > Thanks for any feedback, > > -Doug > > PS - you'll have to make an account on the wiki; sorry but that cuts > down on the kiddie hackers, and only makes it slightly less wiki (wiki > wiki is "quick" in Hawaiian). > > -- > Douglas S. Blank, Assistant Professor > dblank@brynmawr.edu, (610)526-6501 > Bryn Mawr College, Computer Science Program > 101 North Merion Ave, Park Science Bld. > Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 dangermouse.brynmawr.edu > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org Sat Apr 30 19:42:17 2005 From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels) Date: Sat Apr 30 19:42:48 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Re: Python for CS101 In-Reply-To: <4273ABF1.3050506@brynmawr.edu> References: <4273ABF1.3050506@brynmawr.edu> Message-ID: Douglas S. Blank wrote: In response to FAQ 5: > 5. What's the system for doing explicit type checking? We already have > the students write preconditions for functions, so even a way of just > asking "what is the type of value in this variable?" and then > comparing it to some other type, in an assertion, would be fine. > But my impression is that there's something more organized than this. You should mention: assert isinstance(someValue, SomeBaseClass) and even: assert isinstance(someValue, (int, long, float, complex)) > Python has assert(expression). You can get a variable's type with > the type() function. But you could also build a run-time type > checking system like: > @typeChecker > def studentDefineFunction(x, y, z): > tempValue = x + y * z > return tempValue > where typeChecker is something the instructor could write to run-time > check the input and return types (and even values). Also, in your response, I'd not call the decorator typeChecker, but simply "checker." Since the whole idea of decorators is a bit strange, you'd at least need to explain that this allows you to wrap the student function and watch its inputs and outputs "in situ." Personally, I'd avoid type checking until a way in to the course. --Scott David Daniels Scott.Daniels@Acm.Org From dcrosta at sccs.swarthmore.edu Sat Apr 30 21:46:00 2005 From: dcrosta at sccs.swarthmore.edu (Dan Crosta) Date: Sat Apr 30 21:46:08 2005 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for CS101 In-Reply-To: <24d253d905043009316a861d6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4273ABF1.3050506@brynmawr.edu> <24d253d905043009316a861d6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4273E078.4040405@sccs.swarthmore.edu> First of all, I'm glad to see that some places are beginning to pick up Python as an introductory language, Doug. Here at Swarthmore, as you may know, the department just revamped the intro course layout to teach Java from the get-go, which I tried as much as an undergrad could, to prevent for a variety of reasons, but mostly because I find its syntax too too picky, particularly with the advent of generics. But that's water under the bridge, I guess. As a second note, I don't consider Python a language suitable only for lower-level classes. I am currently writing a ray-tracer for my Advanced Graphics seminar completely in Python, and I've found that development goes a whole hell of a lot quicker than in C++, which my partner and I wrote our modeling/rendering enginge in last semester. I'm also working on a few personal projects (a replacement for pine/mutt in the style of gmail, among others) in Python. In fact, the only areas I think Python is *not* suitable are low-level architecture-dependent programming. Our architecture class does CPU/memory stress testing using C, and our operating systems classes should also probably use it. I guess I feel that only in places where the architecture *is* the point of the project should a low-level language be used; in all other situations, the goal of the class ought to be to study the algorithms and focus on goals, instead of nitpicky details. I guess that didn't directly address any of your questions -- just my thoughts on the matter. dsc