[Edu-sig] Python for CS101

[Arthur]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:urnerk at qwest.net]
> To: ajsiegel at optonline.net; edu-sig at python.org
> 
> I'm not sure why you think doing Python on top of .NET is a move towards
> cookie-cutter training-for-industry style programming.  It's pretty much
> the
> same Python, in terms of syntax and semantics.  

I will talk through my hat, a bit more than usual - i.e. impressionistically
more than technically:

As I said, I think what makes Python Python goes beyond its syntax and
semantics.  For one - for Python, the answer to the question of "how do I
hide my code so that no one can see it at work" is generally that you don't,
and if that is essential to you, you should probably reconsider your choice
of Python.  I would assume that the Python developers are perfectly capable
of engineering Python to a different answer - but have not (yet at least)
been very motivated to do so. Other languages need to design around the fact
that this is a fundamental requirement, and I would think there are all
kinds of design implications that necessarily follow this core design
requirement. Static typing seems to help - for example.

But Python *has* been designed around the notion of interoperability with
modules in other languages - initially C. And it is in fact how Python is
used in the real world.  .Net is in some sense trying to catch upto, onto
Python in this respect - just with the assumption that it is working within
the context of closed source, whereas Python assumes otherwise.

Different in spirit.

And one can argue about which is more appropriate in an industrial setting.

In an educational setting the answer is easier, and Python is fully
self-sufficient without the .Net add-on.  Except to the extent the
educational mandate is related to introduction to the tools specific to
closed source programming.  To what extent does that need to be true?  IMO,
very little. 
Not arguing against closed source - per se.  But if that is important to
industry, let industry bear the training costs.


Art 


> Maybe some differences in
> garbage collection, a few other things -- I'm no expert.  Python .NET is a
> lot like Jython -- same Python on the surface, but another implementation
> language under the hood (C# instead of C or Java this time).
> 
> > So it is no small thing for me to hear that an insitution like
> > Swathmore has moved from Scheme to Java.
> >
> > Which is a move - in my mind - exactly in the wrong direction.
> >
> 
> And would you say the same of a move from Scheme to Python?
> 
> Again, I think any CS *curriculum* has to go into more than one language.
> But any given course might focus on just one, such as Python.  Plus I like
> those sampler courses (like the beer sampler you can get at some brew
> pubs).
> 
> > Ted Leung blog entry of this morning being highly relevant, I thnk
> >
> > http://www.sauria.com/blog/
> >
> > It is also no small thing to me to feel inhibited
> > from mentioning Ted's entry and hoping to stimulate some
> > discussion of it here - though finding no direct mention of Python in
> > it.
> >
> > Art
> 
> I believe I read the right entry, about open source and homeschooling and
> the flattening of the world (meaning leveling of the playing field).
> Seems
> pretty on target in a lot of ways.
> 
> Kirby
>