[Edu-sig] Migrating to Projects - Was: Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism

[Laura Creighton]

(cc'd to Peter Hansen, because it is of interest and also mentions him - lac)
In a message of Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:31:03 MST, Trent Oliphant writes:

>This brings up an interesting discussion point, one in which I would be 
>extremely interested personally:  How do you help students (or yourself) 
>move 
>from writing scripts, functions, classes, modules etc. to writing a large
>r 
>project.  I am actually at that stage right now in my personal learning c
>urve. 
>That curve seems extremely steep.
>
>I have looked at pythoncard for example - because I thought it could help
> with 
>that curve.  Maybe it is just me and the way that I think, but it doesn't
> seem 
>to really help with that.
>
>Is that part of the reason for the perception that Python is not approria
>te for 
>large scale projects - because there are no tools that make the job reali
>stic? 
>The discussion of CS departments and whether they are becoming mere techn
>ical 
>schools is fascinating.  However, could we (or are there) tools available
> that 
>would make programming more available to more people (if not everyone).
>
>As much as I may have opinions on Microsoft and their products.  I think 
>that 
>Access is an excellent model of allowing people to create "Applications" 
>without 
>having to already know how to do it.  Its big drawback is it doesn't allo
>w you 
>to get beyond the constrains of the program.  Sure you can move the data 
>- but 
>the application - the interface, much of the business logic, etc - is stu
>ck in 
>Access.  Plus that is only for database based projects.
>
>I know it may seem that I am talking about an IDE - but even those (at le
>ast the 
>ones available for Python that I have seen) assume that you already know 
>how to 
>do a project.  So I get overwhelmed.  I want them to work for me - but th
>ey just 
>haven't yet.
>
>I have thought about writing my own - because I think there is a real nee
>d for 
>it.  I am a lone programmer - entirely self taught - and this is a daunti
>ng 
>task.  I feel confident that I could handle programming most of the indiv
>idual 
>components that would make up the project, but I don't even know where to
> start 
>and there appears to be nothing out there to help me learn that.
>
>Trent Oliphant

I think you are looking for the wrong sort of magic bullet.   What you
need to learn is how to think about large projects.  You need new 
thoughts, and new work habits, not an IDE or some sort of tool.  Any
tool will only help you once you have the correct sort of work habits,
which you need to develop first.   So read: Kent Beck: Test Driven 
Development: By Example

Get it from your library if you can, because this is not the reference
book you want to keep on your shelf.  This is the introduction to
thinking about large projects which needs to be read once before you
read something else that is more difficult.  If you aren't one of the
people who grasps things faster when presented with examples, you will
need a different introduction, but I don't know one to recommend.
Whatever you get, make sure it is about Test Driven Design.  There are
other competing methodologies for designing large programs, which have
a long history, of which the most famous is called Waterfall.  All
you need to know is to avoid them like the plague.

There is lots more to learn, and lots of places where you can learn it,
but the magic search terms are 'agile programming' and 'test driven
design'.  Lots of people, including me, are willing to discuss this
exhaustively at the drop of the hat, but I am limited right now having
broken a bone in my elbow and doing this one handed.  

Peter Hansen http://www.engcorp.com/main/contact had at one time
(and probably still does) the largest set of web references, mailing
lists, resources and the like.  He can make better recommendations
than I can.  And if all else fails, you can hire his company to teach
you how to manage large projects. :-)

good luck,
Laura