[Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)

[Dethe Elza]

I think it would be a real shame if this discussion moved off-list,
and a failure of the lists purpose.  Turtle graphics have been a
mainstay of computers in education for years and have proved their
worth in that regard.  The turtle.py module is minimal, and isn't
going to be taken out of the standard distribution just because Arthur
or Kirby don't like it.  No-one is proposing that turtle.py be an
end-all-be-all super turtle tool, obviously something like that would
be more appropriate for the Cheeseshop, and there is plenty of room
for such tools.

Arthur, I for one have no trouble with your opinions and feelings, but
I'm tired of your claims of persecution ("I am perfectly aware that my
approach to these discussion is not likely to
get me liked.") and your attacks on others who are using this list to
have a genuine discussion of python in education ("Are you an
appointed or self-appointed redactor of all that is Turtle in the
world of Python?").  Surely you can agree to disagree without the
attack mode.  Note carefully: I am not asking you to shut up, just
wondering if you can be more civil about your opposition. Not every
educator we'd like to have participate has usenet-thickened skin, and
it seems we're already driving them off.

Back to the subject of improved turtles, I think there could be a
two-pronged approach. The first prong would be to provide incremental
improvements to the existing turtle.py (and possibly IDLE) within the
standard distribution, while the second would be to provide one or
more advanced turtle environments, possibly interfacing with 3D
(VPython) or actual robot turtles (PYRO).  I'd love to see other
alternatives to Tkinter build or advanced as well (I may take this on
for PyObjC, and PyCard already has this for wxPython).

Obviously, these advance turtle environments would go through the
Cheeseshop, not the standard distribution.  Both discussions should be
welcomed on this list.