[Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)

ajsiegel at optonline.net ajsiegel at optonline.net
Fri Mar 3 23:58:20 CET 2006

----- Original Message -----
From: Gregor Lingl <glingl at aon.at>
Date: Friday, March 3, 2006 5:23 pm
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was   Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)

> Arthur schrieb:
> Some of them feel, that the module is not adequate for their needs and
> they propose to enhance it. A procedure, done so many times with 
> so many
> Python modules. And just in that moment there come two 
> protagonists of
> the Pythonic educational scene and state: if you want to amend it, 
> thenwe find, that it would be better to delete it completely from the
> standard distribution.

I don't know where you get the idea I propose that it be deleted.

I have stated that I thought that the current module, as it is,  was an appropriate proof
of concept. It would never occur to me that Guido would not put the module he thought
most appropriate in his distribution. He has always struck me as a bit of a perfectionsit.
Clearly it is not a matter of what level of implementation he is capable of.

So No.  I am not proposing any change to the status quo.  That would require a PEP ;)

Also I haven't heard Kirby say anything one way or another about the issue of what he thinks 
should or should not be done with turtle.py in the standard distribution.  So I don't know how 
he got dragged into this.

Among other things, I am being sensitive to the fact that the turle graphics ideas - whether
I am attracked to those ideas or not - have a long history and identification with Logo and its
living, breathing community. And exactly nothing in particular to do with Python.

Perhaps I am too much of a boyscout, but it certainly would not be *my* style to include a
wonderful, beautiful, and complete implementation of it in the standard distribution in such a 
way that the connection of the ideas it embodies to Python and its developers can and certainly 
*will* in some number of cases be misunderstood.

But that, I guess, is me.

I would love to be liked by all, but it is most important to me that I be liked by me.

*I* have no question that the questions I am raising are worth raising, while at the same time
wishing I needn't be the one to raise them - if there are to get raised at all. 


> That's a really weird conclusion. And it lets me ask myself, what
> interests stand behind this sort of argument?
> My interests are clear. I've written a book "Python für/for Kids" 
> whichrelies heavily on the turtle module as a visualiziation tool. 
> (And I've 
> got a really nice preface from Guido.) So clearly I wouldn't like 
> turtle.py found to be deleted from the Python distribution.
> What I and most other users of the python module want and, I 
> think, many
> teachers need, is: you can install Python and use it - as was said 
> "outof the box" - with children and young student (and also older 
> students)and thus have fun. A bit more fun would be a bit better. 
> This comprises 
> among other things doing some graphics without having to learn the 
> Tkinter machinery.
> I not only teach students but also teachers. Many of the teachers of
> what we call "Informatik", sort of computer science, have a big stress
> not only with their daily school life, as they normally are also 
> maths,physics or teachers of some other subject, but also with 
> keeping contact
> to the progress in so many branches of computer science. They need 
> toolsthey can learn easily and teach easily to students who (at 
> least the
> largest par of them) don't want to become computer scientists. 
> Thats a
> kind of cp4e. (Many of the e's will not learn more than one 
> computer 
> language, at least in Austria ;-( )
> And of course it has many more merits, as for instance making Python
> more popular etc. etc.
> (By the way: who of us uses the really good turtle module of 
> PythonCard?I assume only few, and I think, that is because it's 
> not in the standard
> distribution.)
> But I don't want to argue on this any more, as most of it has already
> been stated in this discussion.
> In fact I would like to support the idea of Vernon Ceder to 
> transfer the
> discussion of the development of turtly.py to some separate place. 
> Perhaps it would be  possible to host it at sourceforge or 
> something 
> like that and install  some mailing list, e.g. turtle-dev, on it 
> for 
> several month. On python.org there currently approximately 70, 
> many of 
> which are low traffic.
> There are really many interesting questions to  discuss and that 
> is not 
> possible in a fruitful athmosphere on a list where two people who 
> do 
> more than 50% of the overall postings (in terms of number not to 
> speak 
> of volume, as it was in the last six month) dislike it. Moreover 
> it 
> would also be not interesting enough for the majority of the 
> participants of Edu-Sig. So it would suffice to report progress 
> and 
> results from time to time here.
> So Vernon, could you check which possibilities there are?
> Regards,
> Gregor
> > 
> > 
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> > 
> -- 
> Gregor Lingl
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> A-1030 Wien
> Telefon: +43 1 713 33 98
> Mobil:   +43 664 140 35 27
> Website: python4kids.net

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