[Edu-sig] PySqueak: more on the cultural divide among paradigms

[kirby urner]

On 5/5/06, Dethe Elza <delza at livingcode.org> wrote:

> Would a VPython implemented on top of PyOpenGL be useful?  Right now
> VPython lives in its own world and doesn't play nice with native
> windows, or PyGame, or OpenGL, or X3D, or OS X, or...  The argument
> for making writing it the way they have it to get the performance
> necessary for physics demos.  Meanwhile, Python has gotten faster,
> machines have gotten *much* faster, and PyOpenGL is getting faster by
> moving to a ctypes-based implementation.

I think VPython grooves on having a very minimalist API.  The
documentation is only a couple of pages, if that.  It's really
designed to be friendly to like a CS0 new user, and does a pretty good
job of that (I've certainly appreciated having it installed at PSU,
where I teach pythonic mathematics).

> Would a pythonic 3D API, a la VPython, that plays well with others be
> a valuable component for the Squeakification of Python?  Or are we
> talking apples and oranges (pythons and rubies)?
>

Looking at Croquet and the latest Logo, I'm seeing 3D as the way we're
going, which disqualifies PyGame except as it's a window to OpenGL. 
My understanding of OpenGL is it could certainly do the job, but we
might want to develop a new API for it, more suitable for coding
event-driven IDEs.  But maybe that's already part of the spec.  I know
Blender codes all its control widgets inside the OpenGL context. 
Pretty strange looking, but so is Squeak.

> > Given this engine, Python developers might write apps friendlier to
> > young children, using animation and almost-no-typing-needed
> > interfaces.  We could compete with the newer Logos, which leave the
> > older ones in the dust, visually speaking.
>
> How intricate an engine are you thinking?  VPython is still fairly
> primitive in its primitives, but a more open version might be
> extensible to read data from X3D, 2nd Life, SketchUp, AvMotion
> (character animation), etc.
>

I'm thinking like a serious game engine, like lives behind Quake and
Half-Life 2 and like that.  Quaternions anyone?

> > The very same engine would have lots of applications in an adult
> > context as well.
>
> I know I'd love to have a 3D environment that was both easy to use,
> and extensible.
>

Me too.

> > This is NOT about Python changing significantly as a language, moving
> > to some new paradigm or yadda yadda.
> >
> > In my view, Python is a mature language undergoing consolidation, is
> > not on the brink of some major overhaul.
> >
> > True, it's being reimplemented in C# for some platforms, as it was in
> > Java (with Jim's leadership in both cases).
> >
> > The new graphics engine I envision might well be an outgrowth of that
> > Mono/.NET effort.  Only time will tell.
> >
> > In the meantime, we already have working, Ubuntu-compatible versions
> > of Logo, Squeak and Python.
> >
> > My info is the Shuttleworth Foundation is in no way holding its breath
> > waiting for these newer tools to come over the horizon, exciting
> > though these may be.
> >
> > In terms of going ahead with implementation, we already have
> > sufficient toyz.  Curriculum writing is proceeding apace on that
> > basis.
>
> But Guido has committed that a Squeak-like GUI platform would be
> welcome.  So we are talking about extending the libraries to be more
> encompassing.  I agree about not extending the syntax (any more than
> is already happening for Python 3000).
>
> --Dethe

I was at the meeting with Alan Kay from where he first sent out the
call (not to this list).  I think many elements of Squeak intrigue
him.  But exactly what "Squeak-like GUI" means is not yet well
defined.  For example Squeak isn't particularly 3D (unlike Croquet),
yet I think that's where we need to be heading with this engine we're
talking about.

Kirby