[Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000

[kirby urner]

On 9/16/06, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.net> wrote:
> Absolutely it does.  My recommendation happens to be one called Python.

So Python wins another fan.

> I don't require that my views represent anything new.  That's a harder
> task than I am prepared to try to handle, under this Sun.

You've arrived at a position some have struggled to advance for
decades, inventing whole curricula, languages, environments.  And now
that you're here, you pick fights with the champions of the very
position you've come to (very late in the game).

> > Like, "the USA, IF using computer-controlled voting, THEN should have
> > the source code be public and the process transparent."  A sensible
> > position no?  So there's no fight shaping up, no battle lines to be
> > drawn?

By the way:  if I see a liberal arts USA-based faculty that *doesn't*
take a position (one way or another) on whether USA public voting
should be open source, if computerized, I ask students to seriously
consider not considering that school.

A USA-based CS faculty that takes no position on this key issue of our
time (important elections just weeks out), involving computers, and
yet pretends to teach computer science, is just printing diplomas not
worth the paper, in my book. I encourage any grads of that school to
ask for a refund, given the extreme social irresponsibility of its
curriculum.

> > I make sense, so now I get to go home and take bath and watch TV?
>
>
> It is necessary, though not sufficient.
>
> You tend to fail on the necessary part.
>

In what way?

> And as you know, I am not simply a passive observer to the scene.  I -
> like everyone - have my motives.  I would indeed like something like
> PyGeo, source code and all, to be something accessible to a decent range
> of folks.

That's done.  It's on SourceForge.  Mission accomplished.

> I need help.
>

If you've taken the position that computer programming should be a
part of everyday math class, prepare to be (a) ignored and/or (b)
trammeled. Alan Kay fought this battle for years, from many fronts,
and hasn't overcome the resistence.  Why do you think you'll have a
chance?  Especially given you fight the more effective warriors
(ineffectively and obscurely, but in ways that stroke your own ego).

> > You also seem to shy away from focusing on children, just want to make
> > sure the Disneys stay out of it somehow.
>
> I am just more cautious about what I say in regard to the education of
> children.  I understand less.  I know I understand less, I say I
> understand less, but I am unconvinced I understand less than the folks
> who claim to understand more.

You want it both ways.  You want to both defer, and be listened to.
And all because you taught yourself How to Program late in lafe.
Whoopie do.

> > People who don't properly defer to experts, when on expert turf, are
> > considered arrogant.  "You must take your hat off in the presence of
> > kings" is how no one says it anymore, but many still mean it through
> > various social cues.
>
> Who are the kinds here???  The geeks???

I'm told by private email that I'm being disrespectful to my betters,
because they're big name college professors and I'm just this nobody
geek.  I won't take my hat off in the presence of my betters, and that
offends people.

> I defer to the educators.  But they are being hounded by the geeks and
> software vendors, and can't be expected to cut through that noise at
> this particular moment of time. For good reason, they can't tell who to
> rely on at this point.  If there is a moratorium on bold moves at this
> juncture, I support it.

I do not defer to educators.  They've let us down.  Geeks are
generally young and hungry to advance their careers and have no time
for deep level questioning.  Not many battle-hardened warriors join
our cause, and education remains terrible.  Everyone whines about it,
points the finger.  But the *real work* doesn't get done, because
playing politics is easier.

>
> Eventually the din will quiet, and folks will begin to rely on their
> common sense again, God willing.
>

Such a pathetic little hope, it seems to me.  You'll be buried,
another foot soldier.  "He was right" will be your epitaph.

> > It wsa "on the right track" thirty years ago when people like Alan Kay
> > first started taking this position.
>
> Yeah.  But Alan Kay is a schmuck.
>
> Art

What do you know?  Precious little.  You're a proud little man, not
yet effective at anything.

Kirby