[Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one

[kirby urner]

On 9/24/06, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:

> As gnu math teachers, we cover all this before college, no problem,
> using Python, Ruby or whatever.  Strong OO is advisable, as it's just
> natural to consider Polyhedra as Objects (with spin methods, face
> count attributes etc.), and we *definitely* want lots of those.
>

And of course why we want 'em is partly for their applications in
Group Theory.  As we learned from French mathematics, group theory
boils down to permutation soup, with a single operator-verb known as
"permute".  This "permute" gets mapped to the rotations of a
polyhedron and it's neighboring self-similar positions.

In the Fuller School (the pirate ship I was mentioning recently), we
have this polyhedron called a Coupler that we localize at (0,0,0) in
some curriculum segments, using Python + VPython, or maybe Python +
POV-Ray, or Python + Blender... or maybe we use Chakovian Coordinates
i.e. (0,0,0,0).  Of course that's very esoteric and I wouldn't expect
every Tom, Dick or Susan to be drilled in that stuff unless they asked
to be.  We recruit Gnuvy Krew, don't "shanghai" them (a term from Old
Portland, where many an unwitting sailor was made to if not born to
(sail)).

> Yes, with VPython, we'll be able to give visual expression to some of
> our math objects, such as Vectors and Polyhedra.
>

Vectors of the Gibbsian variety are what's in vogue today, like in IB
programs (at our local Lincoln High, football is considered an IB
level sport).  Hestenes & Co. support a geometrical algebra (GA)
featuring these newfangled Blades 'n Stuff, i.e. the so-called
Clifford Algebra implementations (owing to Grassmann).  I'm no expert,
but expect the OO view will help here too, for those choosing to go
with it.

In the meantime, even Fuller had things to say about vectors (lots of
ways to go, not all of them necessitating a Pythonic skillset
(Pythoneers and Mousekateers only partially overlap)).

> But other math objects, such as these Integers Modulo N, needn't get
> involved in direct visualizations. No fancy Physics Engine need apply

Influence of FoxPro's strong "visual" versus "not visual" distinction,
when it comes to classes?

> Ruby also has pretty strong OpenGL support near its core.  In that
> sense, I think Arthur is right to be pointing to VPython as Python's
> counterpart add-on.  We're not behind Ruby, just assemble differently
> on the client machine (wxPython -- another whole world).

Relevant:
http://www.4dsolutions.net/presentations/pythonicmath.pdf  # PAGE 12.

> SciPy is a good example of a distro schools might want to start out
> with.  Does it include VPython already?  My impression is it's very XY
> (flatland), less XYZ (spatial), but perhaps I'm out of date on that
> score.

Nothing very 3D-looking on its MoinMoin home page:
http://www.scipy.org/

Tara's sims are buying businesses, operating spa salons or whatever,
all in gorgeous cartoony sim graphics.  Despite my agreeing with
Arthur about the mind-rot potential of just eye candy, I'm not into
disappointing kids with a diet of All Flatland All the Time.

Speaking of which, I'm giving Tara the option to join me on a trip to
New York pretty soon.  She's already got something planned though, so
another time would also be OK (but I'm still going -- got some Fuller
School events happening (New York's a big center for us)).

> I still don't see that bundling VPython in the core install need be
> the solution.  Guido should rewrite the standard tutorial if so.  Or
> somebody should.

Again, I think schools should come up with home grown solutions and
not rely on Python.org to do their work for them.  Core Python is well
defined and competently taught.  There's no responsibility to get into
esoteric add-on capabilities e.g. linear algebra, vector graphics, in
the core documentation.

PIL is one of the best and earliest role models of a self-sufficient
add-on library (self-sufficient in terms of doing all of its own work,
relying on Python.org only for core Python).

> It's the school that should be asked, not Python.org, which has no
> responsibility to *push* these solutions on people.
>
> We want schools to *pull* based on forces in the marketplace (i.e.
> competition).  We don't want PSF to have to shovel and/or spoon feed.
> That's not its job.

Guido has always been appropriately modest about his area of
expertise, focusing on Python the language and the computer science
behind it.  He doesn't claim credentials as a pedagogue (unlike Alan
Kay, who likes to mint DVDs showing how he's on the front lines with
the children).

I'm less immodest than Guido, around pedagogy, because I'm a career
math teacher with textbook editing experience (McGraw-Hill, Avenue of
the Americas), but more modest about my system level language skills.
If the Python -> C -> C# -> IronPython course opens up, I might be
among the first to sign up as a student -- but I'm wanting it as HDTV
screencasts as an option, but I don't have an HDTV.  Tsk.  I think my
DVD player is compatible though, plus Kim and Jimmy have the real deal
(Dave too, in his bizmo, but he's hardly ever around).

> Make *schools* do the work.  Python.org has already done more than
> enough.  Everyone associated with Python, including Guido, should have
> permission to retire with royalties, and not lift a finger to "save
> education".
>
> Twasn't Python Nation that sank it in the first place.
>
> Kirby
>

Kirby