From jasonrbriggs at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 11:21:47 2007 From: jasonrbriggs at gmail.com (Jason R Briggs) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 23:21:47 +1300 Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... In-Reply-To: References: <4720F8E7.8020705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4729A8BB.30800@gmail.com> Thanks for the amendments Philip. You're right about the example. Must've missed testing that one. I've updated my local copy and will update the site once I have some more changes to make. phil danaher wrote: > > > > > Hi Jason, > > I have been going through the latest version of your book and an > pleased to see > t = turtle.Pen() has been added. Two points so far are that on page 19 > it may > read clearer at para 3 if you added the word "single" after the 3. As > in you can > use 3 single quotes. My son spent a frustrating quarter hour before > working out it > was not a mixture of double and single quotes. Also on page 22 under > the heading > Tuples and Lists the first example result from print t[1] shows 1. > Shouldn't this be > showing the second index item i.e the number 2 ??? By the way am > really enjoying > the new chapter arrangement. > > cheers > > Phillip D. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Join Lavalife for free. What are you waiting for? > From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Fri Nov 2 05:19:38 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:19:38 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Software Engineering with Python for Scientist and Engineers Message-ID: <472AA55A.8030504@kurtz-fernhout.com> This project was one funded by the Python Software Foundation: "Software Engineering with Python for Scientist and Engineers." http://www.swc.scipy.org http://www.python.org/psf/grants/report-2006-10/ Seems like an interesting source of material for teaching people using Python and Jython in a larger science and engineering context. Seems to cover (Briefly) a lot of ground, including things like version control which aren't strictly just Python but are important anyway in Python programming in practice. Plus it is free and open source and so possible to change. >From that page: """ Overview Many scientists and engineers spend much of their lives programming, but only a handful have ever been taught how to do this well. As a result, they spend their time wrestling with software, instead of doing research, but have no idea how reliable or efficient their programs are. This course is an intensive introduction to basic software development practices for scientists and engineers that can reduce the time they spend programming by 20-25%. All of the material is open source: it may be used freely by anyone for educational or commercial purposes, and research groups in academia and industry are actively encouraged to adapt it to their needs. """ Does anyone here have any comment on it or used it in teaching or self-education? I looked in the edusig archives and did not find a mention of it here before, which I found surprising. Maybe I just missed it? --Paul Fernhout From lac at openend.se Fri Nov 2 13:38:06 2007 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 13:38:06 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python Instructor wanted for Omaha workshop Message-ID: <200711021238.lA2Cc6nA010190@theraft.openend.se> just forwarding this where it is more likely to reach interested people. Laura ------- Forwarded Message - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Eric.Foster at modot.mo.gov Date: Oct 30, 2007 10:51 AM Subject: [omaha] Looking for Python Instructor for GIS Symposium in April 2008 To: omaha at python.org I am involved with MAGIC http://www.magicgis.org/ an organization to encourage GIS development, sharing, cooperation, etc. and educate practitioners in GIS. We hold a symposium every two years in April (next is April 2008) and provide speakers and workshops in relevant GIS subjects. ESRI's ArcGIS software holds the market majority and has embraced Python language as a preferred scripting, customization language. One area we have trouble with for our symposium is getting instructors for Python workshops. The symposium is in Kansas City on April 20-24, 2008 and the Python course would be held for 4 hours on Sunday April 20th and would be a hands-on computer based course with a class of about 20-30 beginner programmers. We desire application to ArcGIS, but also just need basic Python skills instruction. The instructors and speakers as well as the planning committee are volunteers to keep the cost down to symposium attendees. Do you have anyone that might fit as an instructor for an Introduction to Python language course in the Midwest? We would like to get a commitment of an instructor with a one-to-two paragraph outline or summary to print in our preliminary program by this Friday (November 2, 2007) Sorry for the short notice, we thought we had someone lined up already, but do not. Please call or email me to discuss further. Eric Foster, Senior Transportation Planner MoDOT, 600 NE Colbern Rd. Lee's Summit, MO 64086 (816) 622-6330 _______________________________________________ Omaha Python Users Group mailing list Omaha at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/omaha http://www.OmahaPython.org _______________________________________________ Advocacy mailing list Advocacy at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy ------- End of Forwarded Message From goldwamh at slu.edu Tue Nov 6 18:23:45 2007 From: goldwamh at slu.edu (Michael H. Goldwasser) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:23:45 -0600 Subject: [Edu-sig] New CS1 Textbook Message-ID: <18224.41761.776811.951034@euclid.slu.edu> Dear Colleagues, We are pleased to announce the release of a new textbook for the CS1 market. Object-Oriented Programming in Python by Michael H. Goldwasser and David Letscher Prentice Hall, 2008 (available as of 10/29/2007) This book is based on materials developed after switching our curriculum to the use of Python for an object-oriented CS1 course. The book differs greatly from existing Python texts as it warmly embraces the object-oriented nature of Python from the onset. It is also extremely comprehensive with solid fundamentals for a CS1 course as well as several "advanced" topics that can be covered as desired. More information can be found online, but feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions about the project. With regard, Michael Goldwasser +-----------------------------------------------+ | Michael Goldwasser | | Associate Professor | | Dept. Mathematics and Computer Science | | Saint Louis University | | 220 North Grand Blvd. | | St. Louis, MO 63103-2007 | | | | Office: Ritter Hall 6 | | Email: goldwamh at slu.edu | | URL: euler.slu.edu/~goldwasser | | Phone: (314) 977-7039 | | Fax: (314) 977-1452 | +-----------------------------------------------+ From jasonrbriggs at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 23:46:54 2007 From: jasonrbriggs at gmail.com (Jason R Briggs) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:46:54 +1300 Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... In-Reply-To: <4729A8BB.30800@gmail.com> References: <4720F8E7.8020705@gmail.com> <4729A8BB.30800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <473634DE.4020806@gmail.com> Hi All I'm seeking some advice, about a change I'm thinking about making to Chapter 2 of my book. I've received a bit of criticism lately about my decision to stick with the simple concept of a variable as a "box to put things in", rather than explaining the difference in Python (that a variable is a really a name or label for an object). My original thinking was to keep it simple (not go into a discussion of store-by-value versus store-by-reference), but I've gradually been convinced, by weight of opinion, that this wasn't the right decision. When you get an email from the Associate Professor of Computer Science at a Brazilian university, you tend to listen more than when you get a mail from someone saying, "dude, you're an idiot, don't you know how Python works!". ;-) Anyway, I'm thinking to keep the original discussion about a variable being a mailbox, and then talk about the Python distinction (see updated version below), but I'm not sure that this won't just unnecessarily confuse the reader. I can scrap the mailbox stuff, but then I lose an illustration (something I'm loathe to do anyway), plus I think in some ways that it's useful information. Any other opinions on the matter? Thanks, Jason --- excerpt --- A "variable" is a programming term used to describe a place to store things. The "things" can be numbers, or text, or lists of numbers and text -- and all sorts of other items too numerous to go into here. For the moment, let's just think of a variable as something a bit like a mailbox. You can put things (such as a letter or a package) in a mailbox, just as you can put things (numbers, text, lists of numbers and text, etc, etc, etc) in a variable. This mailbox idea is the way many programming languages work. In Python, variables are slightly different. Rather than being a box with things in it, a variable is more like a label which is stuck on the things. We can pull that label off and stick it on something else, or even stick the label on more than one thing. We create a variable by giving it a name, using an equals sign (=), then telling Python what we want that name to point at. For example: >>> fred = 100 We've just created a variable called "fred" and said that it points to the number 100. It's a bit like telling Python to remember that number because we want to use it later. To find out what a variable is pointing at, we can just type "print" in the console, followed by the variable name, and hit the Enter key. For example: >>> print fred 100 We can also tell Python we want the variable fred to point at something else: >>> fred = 200 >>> print fred 200 On the first line we say we now want to fred to point at the number 200. Then in the second line we ask what fred is pointing, at just to prove it changed. We can also point more than one variable at the same thing: >>> john = fred >>> print john 200 In the code above, we're saying that we want john to point at the same thing fred is pointing to. Of course, "fred" isn't a very useful name for a variable. It doesn't tell us anything about what it's used for. A mailbox is easy -- you use a mailbox for mail. But a variable can have a number of different uses, and can point at a whole bunch of different things, so we usually want something more informative to describe it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20071111/4aa72129/attachment.htm From lac at openend.se Sun Nov 11 01:23:06 2007 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 01:23:06 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... In-Reply-To: Message from Jason R Briggs of "Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:46:54 +1300." <473634DE.4020806@gmail.com> References: <4720F8E7.8020705@gmail.com> <4729A8BB.30800@gmail.com> <473634DE.4020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711110023.lAB0N6fZ000925@theraft.openend.se> read http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2002-April/140258.html ore read the whole thread. Then write something like Alex did. Laura In a message of Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:46:54 +1300, Jason R Briggs writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--===============0995048152== >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------080808090007040401080704" > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------080808090007040401080704 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Hi All > >I'm seeking some advice, about a change I'm thinking about making to >Chapter 2 of my book. I've received a bit of criticism lately about my >decision to stick with the simple concept of a variable as a "box to put >things in", rather than explaining the difference in Python (that a >variable is a really a name or label for an object). >My original thinking was to keep it simple (not go into a discussion of >store-by-value versus store-by-reference), but I've gradually been >convinced, by weight of opinion, that this wasn't the right decision. >When you get an email from the Associate Professor of Computer Science >at a Brazilian university, you tend to listen more than when you get a >mail from someone saying, "dude, you're an idiot, don't you know how >Python works!". ;-) > >Anyway, I'm thinking to keep the original discussion about a variable >being a mailbox, and then talk about the Python distinction (see updated >version below), but I'm not sure that this won't just unnecessarily >confuse the reader. I can scrap the mailbox stuff, but then I lose an >illustration (something I'm loathe to do anyway), plus I think in some >ways that it's useful information. > >Any other opinions on the matter? > >Thanks, >Jason > >--- excerpt --- > >A "variable" is a programming term used to describe a place to store >things. The "things" can be numbers, or text, or lists of numbers and >text -- and all sorts of other items too numerous to go into here. For >the moment, let's just think of a variable as something a bit like a >mailbox. > >You can put things (such as a letter or a package) in a mailbox, just as >you can put things (numbers, text, lists of numbers and text, etc, etc, >etc) in a variable. This mailbox idea is the way many programming >languages work. > >In Python, variables are slightly different. Rather than being a box >with things in it, a variable is more like a label which is stuck on the >things. We can pull that label off and stick it on something else, or >even stick the label on more than one thing. > >We create a variable by giving it a name, using an equals sign (=), then >telling Python what we want that name to point at. For example: > > >>> fred = 100 > >We've just created a variable called "fred" and said that it points to >the number 100. It's a bit like telling Python to remember that number >because we want to use it later. To find out what a variable is pointing >at, we can just type "print" in the console, followed by the variable >name, and hit the Enter key. For example: > > >>> print fred >100 > >We can also tell Python we want the variable fred to point at something >else: > > >>> fred = 200 > >>> print fred >200 > >On the first line we say we now want to fred to point at the number 200. >Then in the second line we ask what fred is pointing, at just to prove >it changed. > >We can also point more than one variable at the same thing: > > >>> john = fred > >>> print john >200 > >In the code above, we're saying that we want john to point at the same >thing fred is pointing to. > >Of course, "fred" isn't a very useful name for a variable. It doesn't >tell us anything about what it's used for. A mailbox is easy -- you use >a mailbox for mail. But a variable can have a number of different uses, >and can point at a whole bunch of different things, so we usually want >something more informative to describe it. > > > >--------------080808090007040401080704 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > >Hi All
>
>I'm seeking some advice, about a change I'm thinking about making to >Chapter 2 of my book.  I've received a bit of criticism lately about > my >decision to stick with the simple concept of a variable as a "box to >put things in", rather than explaining the difference in Python (that a >variable is a really a name or label for an object).
>My original thinking was to keep it simple (not go into a discussion of >store-by-value versus store-by-reference), but I've gradually been >convinced, by weight of opinion, that this wasn't the right decision.&nbs >p; >When you get an email from the Associate Professor of Computer Science >at a Brazilian university, you tend to listen more than when you get a >mail from someone saying, "dude, you're an idiot, don't you know how >Python works!".  ;-) n>
>
>Anyway, I'm thinking to keep the original discussion about a variable >being a mailbox, and then talk about the Python distinction (see >updated version below), but I'm not sure that this won't just >unnecessarily confuse the reader.  I can scrap the mailbox stuff, bu >t >then I lose an illustration (something I'm loathe to do anyway), plus I >think in some ways that it's useful information.
>
>Any other opinions on the matter?
>
>Thanks,
>Jason
>
>--- excerpt ---
>
> > > > >

A “variable” is a programming term used to >describe a place to store things. The “things” can be numbers >, >or text, or lists of numbers and text – and all sorts of other >items too numerous to go into here. For the moment, let's just think >of a variable as something a bit like a mailbox.

>

>

You >can put things (such as a letter or a package) in a mailbox, just as >you can put things (numbers, text, lists of numbers and text, etc, >etc, etc) in a variable. This mailbox idea is the way many >programming languages work.

>

In >Python, variables are slightly different. Rather than being a box >with things in it, a variable is more like a label which is stuck on >the things. We can pull that label off and stick it on something >else, or even stick the label on more than one thing.

>

We >create a variable by giving it a name, using an equals sign (=), then >telling Python what we want that name to point at. For example:

>

style="border: medium none ; padding: 0cm; margin-left: 1cm; margin-top: > 0.5cm; margin-bottom: 0.5cm; page-break-inside: avoid; orphans: 0; page- >break-before: auto;" > align="left"> >< >font > style="font-size: 8pt;" size="1">>>> >fred = 100

>

We've >just created a variable called “fred” and said that it points > to >the number 100. It's a bit like telling Python to remember that >number because we want to use it later. To find out what a variable >is pointing at, we can just type “print” in the console, foll >owed >by the variable name, and hit the Enter key. For example:

>

style="border: medium none ; padding: 0cm; margin-left: 1cm; margin-top: > 0.5cm; margin-bottom: 0.5cm; page-break-inside: avoid; orphans: 0; page- >break-before: auto;" > align="left"> >< >font > style="font-size: 8pt;" size="1">>>> >print fred
>100

>

We >can also tell Python we want the variable fred to point at something >else:

>

style="border: medium none ; padding: 0cm; margin-left: 1cm; margin-top: > 0.5cm; margin-bottom: 0.5cm; page-break-inside: avoid; orphans: 0; page- >break-before: auto;" > align="left"> >< >font > style="font-size: 8pt;" size="1">>>> >fred = 200
>>>> print fred
>200

>

On >the first line we say we now want to fred to point at the number 200. >Then in the second line we ask what fred is pointing, at just to >prove it changed. > > > >

We >can also point more than one variable at the same thing:

>

style="border: medium none ; padding: 0cm; margin-left: 1cm; margin-top: > 0.5cm; margin-bottom: 0.5cm; page-break-inside: avoid; orphans: 0; page- >break-before: auto;" > align="left"> >< >font > style="font-size: 8pt;" size="1">>>> >john = fred
>>>> print john
>200

>

In the code above, we're saying that we want >john to point at the same thing fred is pointing to.

>

>

Of >course, “fred” isn't a very useful name for a variable. It >doesn't tell us anything about what it's used for. A mailbox is easy >– you use a mailbox for mail. But a variable can have a number of >different uses, and can point at a whole bunch of different things, >so we usually want something more informative to describe it.

>
> > > >--------------080808090007040401080704-- > >--===============0995048152== >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > >--===============0995048152==-- From bblais at bryant.edu Sun Nov 11 01:08:13 2007 From: bblais at bryant.edu (Brian Blais) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:08:13 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... In-Reply-To: <473634DE.4020806@gmail.com> References: <4720F8E7.8020705@gmail.com> <4729A8BB.30800@gmail.com> <473634DE.4020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <395C8F32-96B9-4DD2-B49B-FDCAC55DA3A6@bryant.edu> On Nov 10, 2007, at Nov 10:5:46 PM, Jason R Briggs wrote: > Anyway, I'm thinking to keep the original discussion about a > variable being a mailbox, and then talk about the Python > distinction (see updated version below) > You can put things (such as a letter or a package) in a mailbox, > just as you can put things (numbers, text, lists of numbers and > text, etc, etc, etc) in a variable. This mailbox idea is the way > many programming languages work. > > In Python, variables are slightly different. Rather than being a > box with things in it, a variable is more like a label which is > stuck on the things. We can pull that label off and stick it on > something else, or even stick the label on more than one thing. > > rather than saying "stuck on the things" I'd continue the analogy and say "stuck on the mailbox", and then pull the label off and stick it on another mailbox. Mailboxes can have more than one sticker, but each sticker is unique, so you can ask the question "tell me the contents of the box labeled Fred" and get only 1 answer. (perhaps with an illustration). asking the question "tell me the contents of the box labeled Bob", might give the same contents as Fred (if they are stuck to the same box), or a different contents if stuck to a different box. you can also address undefined variables this way, because asking for the contents of a box with the label Fred, when Fred hasn't been stuck on a box, is meaningless. bb -- Brian Blais bblais at bryant.edu http://web.bryant.edu/~bblais -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20071110/86b58874/attachment-0001.htm From mtobis at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 02:04:01 2007 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:04:01 -0600 Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... In-Reply-To: <395C8F32-96B9-4DD2-B49B-FDCAC55DA3A6@bryant.edu> References: <4720F8E7.8020705@gmail.com> <4729A8BB.30800@gmail.com> <473634DE.4020806@gmail.com> <395C8F32-96B9-4DD2-B49B-FDCAC55DA3A6@bryant.edu> Message-ID: I agree that the concept of a "variable" is deeply unpythonic in most contexts. It is one thing for those of us who have learned our skills on inferior platforms to retrain our thinking. It is another thing entirely to foist our own confusions on those learning. The best introduction to Python objects for experienced programmers is this: http://effbot.org/zone/python-objects.htm ; it doesn't use the word "variable". Obviously yuou can't present this to a child right away, but it's not a good idea to stray from the concepts as presented there. It is not necessary to explain OOP to beginners in the way it was explained to those of us whop have to forget procedural thinking. The concepts of OOP will reveal themselves naturally as Python experience grows. This is the great advantage of Python as a didactic platform. Just avoid the word "variable"; use the words "object" and "name". I am sure you understand the distinction since it is crucial to even modest Python skill. I recommend treating this matter correctly from the beginning rather than trying to correct an unnecessary confusion after the fact. mt From stef.mientki at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 10:22:06 2007 From: stef.mientki at gmail.com (stef mientki) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:22:06 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] Typing words ? Message-ID: <4736C9BE.4000309@gmail.com> hello, I'm not a teacher, but what about this: http://www.osc.edu/~unpingco/Tutorial1.html http://www.osc.edu/~unpingco/Tutorial_5Nov.html These demos are based on Vision, which is not the right choice for these kind of programs, but there are at least 3 others working on similar concepts, cheers, Stef Mientki From macquigg at ece.arizona.edu Sun Nov 11 11:48:50 2007 From: macquigg at ece.arizona.edu (David MacQuigg) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 03:48:50 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20071111020816.03b68020@pop.mail.yahoo.com> Here is how I would explain Python variables to kids: ''' In Python, naming variables is like sticking labels on objects. Unlike other languages, the labels have no type. When we say x is an integer, that's just a shortcut for saying x is a name that currently refers to or identifies an integer. Like labels in the real world, these identifiers can be moved from one object to another, and there can be more than one identifier on an object. Let's say we have two objects, a real number 4.7, and the integer 3. (In Python a "float" and an "int".) Each of these numbers has a place in the computer's memory, and a type (float or int), which was determined when the number was put in that place. If sometime later we say >>> x = y = 3 we are telling Python we want the names x and y to both refer to this one object, the integer 3. >>> x 3 >>> y 3 If we then say >>> y = 4.7 We are moving the "label" y from the int 3, and sticking it on the float 4.7. >>> y 4.7 What do you suppose happens to x? It might depend on how the labels were originally "stuck" on the object 3. Clearly the label y was stuck to the object 3, but was the label x stuck to the same object, or was it stuck on top of the label y? Let's ask Python. >>> x 3 So it seems the rule is very simple. We never have to remember the order in which labels were applied to objects. They all stick to the object, not to each other. When we say x = y = z = 3, Python finds the actual object at the end of the statement, and sticks all labels to that one object. y and z are labels, not objects. You can't stick a label to a label. Another way to look at this is to say that the labels changed, not the objects. When we moved the label y, we did not change anything at the memory location where the 3 was stored. We made a new object 4.7, and put the label y on that object. >>> x = y = 3 >>> id(x) 10835424 # memory location where 3 is stored >>> id(y) 10835424 # the exact same place >>> y = 4.7 >>> id(x) 10835424 # same place as before >>> id(y) 12218536 # a new place ''' The last bit might be left as an exercise, as it may overburden the short explanation. Also, I don't know if you want to introduce the id() function. It's a good way to show the reality of objects, but I see you don't even have it in your appendix. I don't like the mailbox analogy, because it adds complexity to the mental picture (labels, mailboxes, and objects). A mailbox is really a container, like the "locker" that you talk about later with lists and tuples. A mailbox, being a solid object, is more likely to have a type, or have restrictions about what you can put in it. I would much rather think of putting labels directly on objects, not putting objects in boxes then labels on the boxes (unless you really are talking about lists or other objects that are containers). A precise explanation of Python variables is in Chapter 4 of Martelli's "Python in a Nutshell". He uses the word "identifier" for the name, and "variable" for the actual object. You'll have to make a choice between using precise terminology, vs a more conversational, easy-reading style. I would at least put Martelli's book in the list for further reading. "We can pull that label off and stick it on something else, or even stick the label on more than one thing." This looks like a serious error, or maybe I'm just reading it wrong. Hope this is helpful. -- Dave From heistooheavy at yahoo.com Sun Nov 11 14:45:55 2007 From: heistooheavy at yahoo.com (Richard Guenther) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 05:45:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... Message-ID: <709022.15013.qm@web63308.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Jason, I've been using your book with high school students--most from 9th and 10th grade. There have been some excellent responses here, including David's. I understand your dilemma and would suggest an approach used in books like the "for Dummies" books. You may want to put this topic in a sidebar, perhaps with a darker shading and a title like "What's really gong on here?". That way, younger readers won't be so distracted by this distinction, and yet more mature readers will be able to explore that in more detail. Just an idea. Richard ----- Original Message ---- From: David MacQuigg To: edu-sig at python.org Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:48:50 AM Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] python for kids... -------------edit---------------------------- A precise explanation of Python variables is in Chapter 4 of Martelli's "Python in a Nutshell". He uses the word "identifier" for the name, and "variable" for the actual object. You'll have to make a choice between using precise terminology, vs a more conversational, easy-reading style. I would at least put Martelli's book in the list for further reading. -----edited for space--------------------------- Hope this is helpful. -- Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20071111/324fa349/attachment.htm From jbloodworth at sc.rr.com Sun Nov 11 17:09:47 2007 From: jbloodworth at sc.rr.com (Jay Bloodworth) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:09:47 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... In-Reply-To: References: <4720F8E7.8020705@gmail.com> <4729A8BB.30800@gmail.com> <473634DE.4020806@gmail.com> <395C8F32-96B9-4DD2-B49B-FDCAC55DA3A6@bryant.edu> Message-ID: <1194797387.3653.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2007-11-10 at 19:04 -0600, Michael Tobis wrote: > I agree that the concept of a "variable" is deeply unpythonic in most contexts. > But it's pretty darn programmatic. I think overemphasizing python idiom and ontology in a first programming course is a mistake. Variables, subroutines, loops, conditionals - these are a few of my favorite things. I've never really taught programming, but my intuition, based on ten years experience teaching algebra and prealgebra to middle school students, is that they will "get" the idea of variables with any reasonable explanation: boxes, labels, names, whatever. Certainly, many will have difficulty understanding scoping, reference vs. value, deep vs. shallow copies, etc., but these are concepts that are fundamentally more subtle and challenging, and most adults must work to wrap their heads around them as well. I'm going to go a little further out on a limb here and offer a theory and a prediction to test it, that I'd appreciate it if anyone who has taught programming to 10-15 year old can respond to: Regardless of how they are taught, kids first mental model of a variable is something like: "a value the program needs to change". Hence they will be uncomfortable and may resist understanding when a variable is used to name a constant value. jay From lac at openend.se Sun Nov 11 17:53:35 2007 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:53:35 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... In-Reply-To: Message from Jay Bloodworth of "Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:09:47 EST." <1194797387.3653.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4720F8E7.8020705@gmail.com> <4729A8BB.30800@gmail.com> <473634DE.4020806@gmail.com> <395C8F32-96B9-4DD2-B49B-FDCAC55DA3A6@bryant.edu> <1194797387.3653.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200711111653.lABGrZZ1001174@theraft.openend.se> In a message of Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:09:47 EST, Jay Bloodworth writes: >On Sat, 2007-11-10 at 19:04 -0600, Michael Tobis wrote: >> I agree that the concept of a "variable" is deeply unpythonic in most c >ontexts. >> > >But it's pretty darn programmatic. I think overemphasizing python idiom >and ontology in a first programming course is a mistake. Variables, >subroutines, loops, conditionals - these are a few of my favorite >things. > >I've never really taught programming, but my intuition, based on ten >years experience teaching algebra and prealgebra to middle school >students, is that they will "get" the idea of variables with any >reasonable explanation: boxes, labels, names, whatever. Certainly, many >will have difficulty understanding scoping, reference vs. value, deep >vs. shallow copies, etc., but these are concepts that are fundamentally >more subtle and challenging, and most adults must work to wrap their >heads around them as well. > >I'm going to go a little further out on a limb here and offer a theory >and a prediction to test it, that I'd appreciate it if anyone who has >taught programming to 10-15 year old can respond to: Regardless of how >they are taught, kids first mental model of a variable is something >like: "a value the program needs to change". Hence they will be >uncomfortable and may resist understanding when a variable is used to >name a constant value. > >jay Your limb is creaking :-) Younger ones are happy with the notion that 'a variable is a handle'. As in 'an avatar for posting to a fora is a handle'. At least the 12-13 year olds I taught were. And constants was easy, it was the opposite, that they could vary that confused them. But that may say more about how I presented the idea than anything about what is easier for 12 year olds to grasp. I think its all how I taught them. We're making online text based games. Everybody know what an avatar is. Laura From jasonrbriggs at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 21:36:01 2007 From: jasonrbriggs at gmail.com (Jason R Briggs) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:36:01 +1300 Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... In-Reply-To: <200711111653.lABGrZZ1001174@theraft.openend.se> References: <4720F8E7.8020705@gmail.com> <4729A8BB.30800@gmail.com> <473634DE.4020806@gmail.com> <395C8F32-96B9-4DD2-B49B-FDCAC55DA3A6@bryant.edu> <1194797387.3653.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200711111653.lABGrZZ1001174@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <473767B1.9020007@gmail.com> Thanks Laura (and everyone else who posted comments). All useful info. I think I've got enough to go on for the next release I make of the book. J Laura Creighton wrote: > In a message of Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:09:47 EST, Jay Bloodworth writes: > >> On Sat, 2007-11-10 at 19:04 -0600, Michael Tobis wrote: >> >>> I agree that the concept of a "variable" is deeply unpythonic in most c >>> >> ontexts. >> >> But it's pretty darn programmatic. I think overemphasizing python idiom >> and ontology in a first programming course is a mistake. Variables, >> subroutines, loops, conditionals - these are a few of my favorite >> things. >> >> I've never really taught programming, but my intuition, based on ten >> years experience teaching algebra and prealgebra to middle school >> students, is that they will "get" the idea of variables with any >> reasonable explanation: boxes, labels, names, whatever. Certainly, many >> will have difficulty understanding scoping, reference vs. value, deep >> vs. shallow copies, etc., but these are concepts that are fundamentally >> more subtle and challenging, and most adults must work to wrap their >> heads around them as well. >> >> I'm going to go a little further out on a limb here and offer a theory >> and a prediction to test it, that I'd appreciate it if anyone who has >> taught programming to 10-15 year old can respond to: Regardless of how >> they are taught, kids first mental model of a variable is something >> like: "a value the program needs to change". Hence they will be >> uncomfortable and may resist understanding when a variable is used to >> name a constant value. >> >> jay >> > > Your limb is creaking :-) > Younger ones are happy with the notion that 'a variable is a handle'. > As in 'an avatar for posting to a fora is a handle'. > At least the 12-13 year olds I taught were. And constants was easy, > it was the opposite, that they could vary that confused them. But > that may say more about how I presented the idea than anything > about what is easier for 12 year olds to grasp. I think its all > how I taught them. We're making online text based games. Everybody > know what an avatar is. > > Laura > > From matt.kameron at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 01:06:27 2007 From: matt.kameron at gmail.com (Matt K) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:06:27 +1100 Subject: [Edu-sig] grabbing the output from turtle and sending it to a (real) printer Message-ID: <53b2477a0711111606p2c8b1528mb6be821cbfb83a96@mail.gmail.com> Hi, My students have loved drawing pics in turtle. What they'd love more (as would the wall of my classroom) would be if they could print their pictures to a printer. Does anybody know of how to do this? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20071112/610acd03/attachment.htm From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Mon Nov 12 15:21:59 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:21:59 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC G1G1 sales start today Message-ID: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> Key idea: a Python-powered laptop for the education in the developing world. They are now taking orders from US and Canada for a limited time at: http://www.laptopgiving.org/en/index.php where you essentially get one and give one for about $400 (plus about $25 shipping). Related news items: http://www.olpcnews.com/sales_talk/g1g1/give_one_get_one_has_started.html http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/12/138246 Just ordered two. Seems like you would need at least two to really see the Python-powered networkable apps in action. We have an (unreleased) early port of our plant drawing software to CPython and PyGTK for the OLPC, developed under emulation; here are screenshots: http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/olpc/ I'm not sure I'll want to release it if it runs too slow on the actual hardware, as it took a speed hit moving from Delphi to Python, but maybe some focused optimization might improve performance down the road. What I'm hoping for someday is for the OLPC to run Java better so I can use Jython on it. I prefer Swing to GTK. As when I asked about pyGTK before here, pyGTK was difficult to get running on the Mac, so I'm not that happy with it as a cross-platform solution (even if it installs easily on GNU/Linux and Windows). I also like the option Java provides of cross-platform fast code, rather than messing with semi-portable C and lots of #ifdefs and corner cases. Still, "Sugarizing" an application kind of locks it somewhat into the OLPC framework, and that would probably be true even with Java. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Human_Interface_Guidelines I know the hardware can at least just barely run Java: http://www.olpcnews.com/software/operating_system/pepper_pad_operating.html http://www.concord.org/publications/newsletter/2007-spring/probeware.html http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t85296.html And there is some interest in making it work generally: "Javalobby calls for Java port to OLPC" http://www.linux.com/feature/119793 But then cell phones run Java, so why not the OLPC? So likely it will be the next version before Java runs well with better hardware? Java was not truly free when they began the OLPC project -- another opportunity cost of Sun's policies. Anyway, I'm hoping for software upgrades for this one over time. I like Jython+Swing+Java more and more everyday, now that Java is becoming free. Since the OLPC runs open firmware, http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OFW_FAQ I may also find it works as a good Forth machine: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/FORTH to replace my aging VIC and Commodore cartridges and embeddable F68HC11 single board computers, which I found a great way to learn about programming in a bottom-up modular fashion. And of course it runs a version of Squeak. At the very least, it could be an interesting platform to do GNU/Linux-oriented experiments with. (Like the Sharp Zaurus SL-5500 or the Nokia N800). Here is a video of an OLPC running an iRobot Create: http://www.olpcnews.com/sales_talk/g1g1/give_one_get_one_sell_out.html "Couple an OLPC with an iRobot Create to create a telepresence robot. Using a simple web interface, users can drive the Create, monitor its sensor readings, and explore the world across the internet through the attached OLPC's webcam and microphone." I'm hoping eventually I can get the OLPC to run a bluetooth usb module so I could use it to control Lego Mindstorms NXT units (as I expect the OLPC is going to be more rugged in the hands of a kid then leaving a regular laptop on the floor by Lego). I don't want to hype the OLPC too much (it's had more than enough hype already :-), just to be a reminder for those who already want one for whatever reason. There are also of course now several similar laptop projects ongoing (with GNU/Linux running from Flash, although probably not as rugged). I'm sure there will be lots of issues with the software (Sugar still seems to be a work in progress) and maybe even the hardware (lots of new stuff to fail). The overall experience may seem limiting for the developed world, especially given a limited web browsing experience, see: http://www.laptopmag.com/Review/My-8-Year-Old-Reviews-the-OLPC-XO.htm For example, I like the connectivist ideals of the Sugar interface; I'll be curious to see how it works out in practice as opposed to just putting a regular GNU/Linux desktop on there and having some tutorial information in a native language. I know I found worrying about Sugar to be a big stumbling block in my porting efforts, and the point at which my work on that stalled (i.e. it works as a GTK app, but does not integrate well into the moving-target OLPC Sugar world yet). So, rather than see the OLPC as a finished thing, I see getting a couple as R&D into the future of (Pythonic) computing, plus maybe something to help someone somewhere. Plus maybe some inspiration for a new version of PataPata (even as I am now moving that into a Java/Jython-only direction) or other educational projects. I'm really looking forward to seeing if it can be used easily in as an ebook reader in tablet mode -- maybe to look at some of those million freed books that Raj Reddy of CMU and associates have scanned as TIFF files and made available on the internet: http://www.library.cmu.edu/Libraries/MBP_FAQ.html http://www.archive.org/details/millionbooks or the earlier Project Gutenberg 100000 book text-based archive: http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page The OLPC is something I hoped for (perhaps too optimistically time-wise) seven years ago: "[unrev-II] The DKR hardware I'd like to make..." http://www.bootstrap.org/dkr/discussion/0754.html I'm glad to see it happening, even with the rough edges. Things will likely only get better from this. Another couple of years, something like this may truly be $100. And might have lots of really awesome constructivist and connectivist educational software, plus endless tutorials and other adapted educational content, similar to: "Open-Source Early Literacy Materials Gaining Some Attention" http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/09/1422211 "Learn to read as Starfall" http://www.starfall.com/ --Paul Fernhout From mtobis at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 16:31:22 2007 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:31:22 -0600 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC G1G1 sales start today In-Reply-To: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: I think this "limited time only" idea defeats the purpose of the whole software environment. Why should I buy a community building tool that will not be available to potential members of my local community? What are the prospects of a commercial product running the XO software system? I agree, I am tempted to buy four and get two rather than buy two and get one. That starts to be enough money that I hesitate though. I disagree about Java, though. I think that moves in the wrong direction. mt From guido at python.org Mon Nov 12 17:43:22 2007 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:43:22 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] grabbing the output from turtle and sending it to a (real) printer In-Reply-To: <53b2477a0711111606p2c8b1528mb6be821cbfb83a96@mail.gmail.com> References: <53b2477a0711111606p2c8b1528mb6be821cbfb83a96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The Canvas object has a postscript command that writes postscript to a file. The rest is a simple matter of programming... On Nov 11, 2007 4:06 PM, Matt K wrote: > Hi, > > My students have loved drawing pics in turtle. What they'd love more (as > would the wall of my classroom) would be if they could print their pictures > to a printer. > > Does anybody know of how to do this? -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From aharrin at luc.edu Mon Nov 12 18:18:58 2007 From: aharrin at luc.edu (Andrew Harrington) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:18:58 -0600 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC G1G1 sales start today In-Reply-To: References: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: I understood the time limitt had something to do with restrictions on nonprofit status, though I am sorry I forget where I heard it -- maybe laptop.org before the sale started. I certainly agree that I would want to at least make sure a friend of my kid in the same neighborhood was doing the same thing, or buy double myself. Andy On Nov 12, 2007 9:31 AM, Michael Tobis wrote: > I think this "limited time only" idea defeats the purpose of the whole > software environment. Why should I buy a community building tool that > will not be available to potential members of my local community? > > What are the prospects of a commercial product running the XO software system? > > I agree, I am tempted to buy four and get two rather than buy two and > get one. That starts to be enough money that I hesitate though. > > I disagree about Java, though. I think that moves in the wrong direction. > > > mt > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -- Andrew N. Harrington Director of Academic Programs Computer Science Department Loyola University Chicago 512B Lewis Towers (office) Snail mail to Lewis Towers 416 820 North Michigan Avenue Chicago, Illinois 60611 http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh Phone: 312-915-7999 Fax: 312-915-7998 gdp at cs.luc.edu for graduate administration upd at cs.luc.edu for undergrad administration aharrin at luc.edu as professor From radenski at studypack.com Mon Nov 12 20:11:07 2007 From: radenski at studypack.com (Atanas Radenski) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:11:07 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] grabbing the output from turtle and sending it to a (real) printer In-Reply-To: <53b2477a0711111606p2c8b1528mb6be821cbfb83a96@mail.gmail.com> References: <53b2477a0711111606p2c8b1528mb6be821cbfb83a96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071112111107.3uj5myibcw0ck88k@webmail.studypack.com> > My students have loved drawing pics in turtle. What they'd love more (as > would the wall of my classroom) would be if they could print their pictures > to a printer. Outside of Python, you can use simple OS facilities to capture the drawing, paste in a file, then print or do whatever else you want (inside a python, it is too dark to see any graphics - to paraphrase Groucho Marx :-). How exactly you create and paste this the drawing will depend on your particular system: Windows, Macintosh, Linux, etc. In Windows, for example, perform the following steps. * Click on the title bar of the drawing widow to make it the active window. * Use Alt + Print Screen to copy the window onto the clipboard. The above step will have no visible effect to you. * Start any application that can handle graphics, such as the Paint program. * Use Edit -> Paste to paste the window copied from the clipboard onto an empty document. * Print the document. If you have no access to Paint, you can use a word processor, such as Microsoft Office Word or Open Office Writer. Atanas -- Atanas Radenski mailto:radenski at studypack.com http://studypack.com mailto:radenski at chapman.edu http://www1.chapman.edu/~radenski Quoting Matt K : > Hi, > > My students have loved drawing pics in turtle. What they'd love more (as > would the wall of my classroom) would be if they could print their pictures > to a printer. > > Does anybody know of how to do this? > From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Mon Nov 12 20:05:13 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:05:13 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC G1G1 sales start today In-Reply-To: References: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <4738A3E9.7000108@kurtz-fernhout.com> Michael Tobis wrote: > I think this "limited time only" idea defeats the purpose of the whole > software environment. Why should I buy a community building tool that > will not be available to potential members of my local community? A very good point. And you can find lots of people who agree the OLPC distribution model is problematical for various reasons, for one example: http://www.olpcnews.com/sales_talk/countries/negroponte_change_olpc_distribution_.html But as I see it, this is not about the OLPC XO-1 as an innovation by itself. For me, this is about experimenting with doing education with lightweight portable "dynabooks" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynabook running GNU/Linux supporting dynamic languages (like Python) with wireless connectivity, which don't break when you drop them or use them outdoors around a little bit of water or heat or dust. That's the big picture, long term. I've bought several portable devices (with hopes of running Python software on some of them) -- none have had the (projected) robustness of the OLPC. The robust alternatives I could buy still seem to be in the thousands of dollars, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughbook Still, it is possible the XO-1 won't live up to the hype of toughness. And if it doesn't, in my eyes it will have been a failure, because I think that is the most important aspect of it -- reasonably performing GNU/Linux and Python in a tough but cheap enclosure. The software can be fixed up, and I expect will improve over time like it did for the Zaurus SL-5500 or Nokia N800. If the hardware has problems, then you're stuck. Here is a related article with a video clip of earlier (prototype) OLPC's with problems: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm9bTrpjTZ0 http://www.olpcnews.com/countries/nigeria/olpnc_galadima_school_interview.html >From there: "On walking around school I saw kids that had laptops with spoiled screens, torn off "ears", and defect batteries ? one kid even told me that his laptop had been stolen. There are teachers for whom the idea of using the laptops in learning is not yet natural, and there are challenges regarding how to digitalize the curriculum the kids must go through during primary school." I found that clip a little heartbreaking as at the end the child puts his hand across the apparently defective laptop screen, me thinking -- is he wonderingly if perhaps there goes his chance at a hopefully better education? Probably need at least 1.2 laptops per child to account for spares. :-( Still, even if only a few people can only get a few now, the general principles related to "dynabooks" will become more and more ubiquitous as years go by. And they are already happening -- one can get a Nokia N800 for a similar price (although it isn't quite as robust, and it is harder on the eyes). This has been an ongoing trend for many years. With a couple decades this trend might even culminate in devices equivalent to the OLPC XO-1 given away for free on the back of cereal boxes. :-) "Electronics goes organic" http://www.my-esm.com/digest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199700530 But even if that seems to hard to believe, it's not much of a stretch to imagine in ten years buying the equivalent of the OLPC XO-1 used on ebay is only going to cost in the tens of dollars. At that price, almost everyone in the world can afford one (or someone can afford to buy them one if they can't themselves). We are seeing the continued emergence of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's "noosphere". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere Whether that will be seen as good or bad for most remains to be seen. So, I see the XO-1 as mostly a funky vehicle for this kind of "dynabook" experimentation. But I expect in two or three years this OLPC XO-1 will be obsolete (if it isn't already. :-) Though on the other hand the Newton MP2100 has held its value for almost a decade, and probably still exceeds the OLPC XO-1 in good power management and ease of use -- although that is mostly software related, for example the Newton may sleep 100 times during the time it take you to draw a line across its screen. I could write a lot on OLPC failings based on the Newton's successes (OLPC didn't use an ARM processor like the Newton, color maybe wasn't essential and if it was, it could have been done the usual way, http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image:Blurry-develop.png the Newton OS and GUI really did get out of your way most of the time and worked well in a mobile setting). I could even point out at length how the OLPC project duplicates some of the Newton's mistakes (making it hard for developers to use existing code or develop using existing desktop equipment, as OLPC could have made Sugar optional add-ons to Gnome instead of essentially replacing Gnome, etc.), http://www.osnews.com/story.php/16582/The-OLPC-Sugar-Interface-Dont-Do-it/ Still, I think there are also a lot of good points about the general OLPC concept anyway (and even about Sugar's aspirations). I also admire the way it was done as a non-profit using free and open source methods. One can quibble about how organized they are, etc., or lots of other things they may have had difficulties with, or with the distribution models, or the hype machine, but as I see it the OLPC is the biggest game in town working on hardware and software this way -- and they have chosen Python to pull everything together. I feel a little about it like I feel about GNU/Linux, which I resisted for years because it was obvious UNIX was an antiquated technology compared to all the other promised OS's (Plan 9, Microkernels, Inferno) or even just plain old pre-DOS QNX or the Mac OS. But in the end, the GNU & Linux communities have kept chugging a long and become the biggest game in town in that free OS arena. I don't know if OLPC will have that much momentum, of course. I doubt it -- not because it isn't a ultimately a good idea to make robust cheap dynabooks for kids (or adults :-), but just because there will be so much hardware competition with dropping prices that in a few years one may have many choices with a variety of OS's or software environments (e.g. the Java powered PepperPad http://www.pepper.com/ to name just one competitor). And some of this is happening precisely because the OLPC project paved the way and stirred up the commercial competition. But all that is good news ultimately for anyone who wants to use computers in education -- better, faster, cheaper, lighter, more robust. It's all part of an ongoing revolution, perhaps leading up to Vernor Vinge's Hugo-award-winning short science fiction story "Fast Times at Fairmont High" http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0518.html?printable=1 where he talks about the equivalent of sprinkling smart dust (called "localizers") around schools. From the review: "One thing that was believable is that it seemed that a lot of the kids cheated, and it was almost impossible for the adults to catch them. With universal network connectivity it would be hard to make sure kids are doing their work on their own. I got the impression the school sort of looked the other way, the idea being that as long as the kids solved their problems, even if they got help via the net, that was itself a useful skill that they would be relying on all their lives." One can even question the whole idea of whether kids in developing nations are better off without today's conceptions of computing. Certainly many of these developing nations already rank as "happier" than much of the developed world. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3157570.stm http://thehappinessshow.com/HappiestCountries.htm Are we really sure we want to tinker with that happiness? But it is happening anyway -- so at least hopefully they can get the benefit of the good part of it while perhaps using their own unique cultural strengths to work around the bad parts. The OLPC XO-1 is a first of a kind. It's almost certain it will fail as a specific product because it is a very ambitious undertaking. Or, as "Fake Steve Jobs" sarcastically wrote: http://www.olpcnews.com/commentary/press/one_fake_steve_jobs_sarcasm.html "Frankly I'm shocked to see these guys having problems. I mean, a brand new hardware design, a new screen technology, a customized Linux operating system, a one-off user interface, and the customers are the poorest nations in the world, ?and the whole project will be run by woolly academics who have never even worked in a real company let alone run one. What could possibly go wrong?" But, as an idea, I think it has a lot of momentum, even if others in the end may carry the idea forward in better ways. And it is an idea -- the Dynabook -- with roots back in the 1960s or even earlier. This is just a step on the way. I think the biggest thing to take away from this is that the dynabook hardware is pretty much there. It is the software and content that is the problem. And that's where edu-siggers etc. can play a vital role. Again, from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynabook "Though the hardware required to create a Dynabook is here today, Alan Kay still thinks the Dynabook hasn't been invented yet. The key software and educational curriculum are the missing pieces." > What are the prospects of a commercial product running the XO software system? Probably zero. I would even think the OLPC project would think this probability should ideally be zero, to minimize the risk of theft. Having said that, I know there was interest by groups who do outdoors type applications -- like surveying or inspection. > I agree, I am tempted to buy four and get two rather than buy two and > get one. That starts to be enough money that I hesitate though. I agree. I actually really wanted three. Even just two seems like it doesn't fully get at the idea of, say, a third person joining an existing networked group activity. I was hoping maybe I could substitute one emulator session on a desktop for that third laptop. > I disagree about Java, though. I think that moves in the wrong direction. True, Java has its own issues as well. Sometimes it seems it can't make up its mind if it is an OS or a software library or a VM or a language. And dealing with a proliferation of versions and configurations is its own set of potential headaches, and a major weakness in the Java concept. Nothing is perfect, in part because one person's priorities may differ from another's -- in my case, easy Mac installation is important for me (while still being cross-platform) and I like Swing better than, say, wxWidgets. --Paul Fernhout From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Mon Nov 12 20:51:23 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:51:23 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC G1G1 sales start today In-Reply-To: References: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <4738AEBB.7040801@kurtz-fernhout.com> Andrew Harrington wrote: > I understood the time limitt had something to do with restrictions on > nonprofit status, though I am sorry I forget where I heard it -- maybe > laptop.org before the sale started. I heard the same thing, but it does not make much sense to me, as there are a lot of educational non-profits which have sales as part of their missions. I would expect OLPC sales would be clearly income related to their exempt purpose? OLPC News was set up by someone in part out of a feeling some of these decisions were less transparent than they should be. > I certainly agree that I would > want to at least make sure a friend of my kid in the same neighborhood > was doing the same thing, or buy double myself. One thing about this is that I wonder if a typical spread-out car-requiring US neighborhood, unlike a clustered rural village, will have the density to make the mesh network useful? I'm getting two from a developer point of view, but then I've long been interested in and worked on educational software (going back more than 25 years). So for me, it's mostly an R&D investment, a learning opportunity, and also something charitable. I have fairly low expectations for it other than perhaps to use to deploy my own Python-ic creations, and my family has other laptops and desktops to use for production work or web surfing. I'll be very happy if the music software really does network well. For a more typical home user, especially one who does not already know and like GNU/Linux, I'm not sure if it would meet expectations in the developing world as other than either as special purpose device (like used as an ebook reader or robot controller) or alternatively, for a family who buys several, as a family activity to use some of the built in "connectivist" software (either what is there now or what might be speculatively available in the future). Again from the review by an eight year old: http://www.laptopmag.com/Review/My-8-Year-Old-Reviews-the-OLPC-XO.htm "When given the choice between the XO and his current PC, Nicholas naturally chose the latter. When asked whether he would rather use the XO or his Leapster handheld learning system, he chose the Leapster. But when given the choice between the XO and nothing, he was okay with the XO. And since that's the choice facing the potential recipients of the XO, that may be enough of a victory." So, I've actually somewhat discouraged someone I know who wants it just as a good laptop present for their kid. If the recipient is not into the "giving" part, or the "developing" part, or the "learning its quirky OS" part, I think a kid would be disappointed, as in the above review. If they are into giving, developing in Python, or learning GNU/Linux, then by all means, it may be a great educational experience to be part of a movement, and to have a portable platform one can write Python software for. I'm tempted to just velcro one to the wall and use it to track the local weather -- although I've seen cheaper dedicated computing devices one might use for that. Still, it does not, to me, seem to have the ease-of-use of an "appliance", like these attempts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaSmart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat given that I assume any purchaser will need to upgrade the software as it is just the first big public release. Maybe in a few years a system like this might ship with good enough software you could expect not to have to upgrade it or add to it regularly. Still, I might be wrong, and it might be good enough out of the box, I'll see; I've only worked with limited emulated development versions of it. Obviously, it is the aim of the OLPC project and Sugar to deliver exactly that ease of use and automatic migration and installation of applications. I think we are still waiting for the verdict on that (currently reviews seem mixed and the software seems still in flux). I'm also still not sure what I make of the legal liability of running a mesh network node if yours is the link that is readily identifiable and connected directly to the internet. Hopefully you can secure it with a pass phrase? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Mesh_Security On a tangent, while one can disagree with the distribution plans for developing nations, the idea behind selling a million at once was to saturate an entire area with them to promote a wi-fi mesh across a big area, as well as to make theft less likely. Personally, as one person on OLPC News suggested though, "10 Reasons Why Negroponte Should Change OLPC Distribution" http://www.olpcnews.com/sales_talk/countries/negroponte_change_olpc_distribution_.html this idea might work better in a city -- where a progressive mayor might order a few thousands to blanket the city area. As is said at that link: "Contrary to state and federal governments, in the municipal scale, one enthusiast can make a project happen. City mayors are usually eager to find projects that can put their own city on the map, even if that means doing things nobody has ever done before. Also, a thousand children and his families can represent five thousand voters, and that does make a difference in the next elections, specially if you promise to expand this one-school project to others when your term is ending. A couple thousand dollars is the just the scale they can afford: around the cost of a bridge, a new road or reforming a school. " I thought that was a really good idea -- focusing on developing cities not developing nations. But then I've long been a Jane Jacobs fan. :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs --Paul Fernhout From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Tue Nov 13 00:48:33 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:48:33 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC G1G1 sales start today In-Reply-To: <4738AEBB.7040801@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> <4738AEBB.7040801@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <4738E651.60406@kurtz-fernhout.com> Paul D. Fernhout wrote: > For a more typical home user, especially one who does not already know and > like GNU/Linux, I'm not sure if it would meet expectations in the developing > world as other than either as special purpose device (like used as an ebook > reader or robot controller) or alternatively, for a family who buys several, > as a family activity to use some of the built in "connectivist" software > (either what is there now or what might be speculatively available in the > future). That should have read "in the developed world", meaning like the USA. And I really should not be using "developed" / "developing" as they are loaded terms (even though the OLPC project uses them too), since there is a lot the USA can learn from other countries, including poor ones, some of whom rank higher in overall happiness in various surveys -- here's a different one: http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/ On using Java/Jython and the OLPC: "Pepper on the OLPC" http://www.pepper.com/linux/olpc.html "A technology preview of a special version of the Pepper environment is now available for the One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) XO laptop. This version of Pepper for OLPC runs on the XO laptop and replaces the standard Sugar environment while retaining the XO's Fedora-based Linux distribution. ... The Pepper environment is written primarily in Java, though it includes open source components like Mozilla and Java that are written in C or C++. The Pepper application framework supports Java, C, C++, XUL, HTML, etc. We're also working on adding Python support soon. ... We'll be making the source code for the Pepper for OLPC environment available soon. We're planning to release it under an LGPL license. We'll also be sponsoring an open source community to maintain the Pepper for OLPC environment." Using Pepper (if it is indeed released under the LGPL as announced above), which is an environment built in Java and including JVM 1.5, I hope I can run Jython on the OLPC. I'll have to try it and see. Maybe the Pepper people do not know about Jython? Of course, software written there in Jython is not going to run on the regular OLPC environment (which is CPython+pyGTK). An informative pro-OLPC post at Slashdot: "Worth Careful consideration" http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=357665&cid=21325111 An excerpt: "While you can certainly waste time and goof off on the web, there is also a wealth of instructional material, learning material, free encyclopedias, and help of all kinds to be had on message boards. Children could learn, for example, methods of improving local sanitation, agricultural techniques, and health information which could end up saving the developed world millions or billions of dollars in humanitarian aid. They could also learn other languages which could open up entire worlds to them. Even if they didn't have the internet, they could learn how to program, how to compute, make art, photographs, drawings, and a whole bunch of other stuff with it. Not to mention the fun factor. It's not an educational panacea but it WILL change the world. " And as another slashdot poster says, you can't buy that many paper textbooks for $200, especially compared to what you can cram into 1GB of Flash (or even more if you get the files from local servers and delete old ones). And paper books have their own problems in areas of high humidity (mold, chewed by rodents, fade in the sun, etc.). I think a lot of the economics that governments are considering for deploying OLPC have more to do with replacing plain old paper textbooks with a single laptop than any of the issues of connectivity or simulation or learning to program which are more the sorts of things we think about for computers in, say, the USA or Europe, where we pretty much take purchasing textbooks and access to local libraries of tens of thousands of printed books for granted. Still, even for USA schools, OLPCs may make sense if they save money on textbooks. So, USA school districts could save money of textbooks (if they were free, as in here:) "Global Text Project ? Wiki Textbooks" http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/05/230201 http://globaltext.org/ (or even just at direct author royalty cost) and kids get Python and educational simulations thrown in as a bonus. Plus, they get a lighter load and less back pain. "Heavy backpacks lead to early strain and pain for schoolkids" http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2001/fyi/teachers.ednews/02/13/backpack.pain.ap/ Anyway, as an ebook reader alone the OLPC might be worth the US$425 cost, which is only a $100 more than what a Sony Reader costs with an extra waterproof cover, and that amount is less than the more flexible (but heavier) iRex Iliad. See: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5664 I think key to happiness with the OLPC in the USA is reduced expectations. Consider that for $425, you get an OLPC ebook reader than runs Python, and then some kid somewhere else with limited access to books gets one too. I'll be curious to compare them side-by-side with an ebook reader. Maybe if that eight year old reviewer was asked -- would you rather carry a three pound OLPC XO-1 back and forth to activities or two or three times as much weight in textbooks in your backpack, they might have gone for the OLPC. --Paul Fernhout From francois.schnell at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 01:05:03 2007 From: francois.schnell at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Schnell?=) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:05:03 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC G1G1 sales start today In-Reply-To: <4738AEBB.7040801@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> <4738AEBB.7040801@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <13a83ca10711121605qae48c6bhf636dd5cae5e508d@mail.gmail.com> I'm also very disappointed with the limited distribution scheme of the XO (in time and US only). For me there is no doubt that the XO is the best educational and technical machine out there (vs Intel Classmate and Asus EEE) but it's not sufficient not even necessary to have the best product to gain wide adoption (ask Microsoft). Now that the XO has entered mass production I believe the OLPC project should concentrate *now* on starting the ecosystem, the layers of the onion, to hopefully reach a sustainable critical mass (of software developpers, content creators, advocates, to sell more, to lower the price, etc). I believe it just won't happen with the actual distribution scheme. When I had my first 100 $ "laptop", I was a kid, and the ZX81 could be bought everywhere by anybody. As a result this very limited machine (and following ones), without the web, saw a growing "community" and dedicated magazines where full of Open Source and Open Hardware, sharing tweaks and hacks and all kind of creative projects which ignited the curiosity and vocation of many today engineers: http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Systems/Sinclair/Magazines_and_E-zines/ In regard the XO is a heaven but where are the well deserved vibrant layers ?? it's been a while I'm following these official OLPC lists, at least, but sadly, they doesn't flood my mailbox: http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-open http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/games In the meantime Asus recently released the EEE subnote book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASUS_Eee_PC http://www.flickr.com/photos/curiouslee/1949245574/ Officially it is not for education (they say now) and you can buy it everywhere *now* (or soon) with an ASUS 2 years warranty. Oh, and the official website is full of kids pictures... http://eeepc.asus.com/en/ Well right now ASUS have a hard time to keep up with the unexpected high demand ... the layers are building fast, forums, blogs and lists are again vibrant with tweaks, hacks and all kind of creative projects ... If I take my little, tiny, microscopic French country for example (where the laptop won't even be available before the mid-december): http://www.blogeee.net/forum/ http://www.blogeee.net/ I see that this single forum is already very active with people sharing their experience and projects with few laptops bought from Taiwan on Ebay. I can't buy an XO and consequently can't contribute to the XO project, I will then buy an EEE and probably contribute to the EEE layers. I find that ironic considering that I'm fully in sync with Nicloas Negroponte, Papert and Kay main ideas and approach. So, yes the OLPC is already an incredible success (it shook-up Intel and Asus) so cheap, affordable machines are and will be more and more a reality thanks to the OLPC initial strike. I also expected the layers catalysts, my mistake probably. PS: Hopefully Quanta will release a "consumer" version of the XO (could be already to late to reach a "critical mass", hopefully I'm wrong) francois On Nov 12, 2007 8:51 PM, Paul D. Fernhout wrote: > Andrew Harrington wrote: > > I understood the time limitt had something to do with restrictions on > > nonprofit status, though I am sorry I forget where I heard it -- maybe > > laptop.org before the sale started. > > I heard the same thing, but it does not make much sense to me, as there are > a lot of educational non-profits which have sales as part of their missions. > I would expect OLPC sales would be clearly income related to their exempt > purpose? OLPC News was set up by someone in part out of a feeling some of > these decisions were less transparent than they should be. > > > I certainly agree that I would > > want to at least make sure a friend of my kid in the same neighborhood > > was doing the same thing, or buy double myself. > > One thing about this is that I wonder if a typical spread-out car-requiring > US neighborhood, unlike a clustered rural village, will have the density to > make the mesh network useful? > > I'm getting two from a developer point of view, but then I've long been > interested in and worked on educational software (going back more than 25 > years). So for me, it's mostly an R&D investment, a learning opportunity, > and also something charitable. I have fairly low expectations for it other > than perhaps to use to deploy my own Python-ic creations, and my family has > other laptops and desktops to use for production work or web surfing. I'll > be very happy if the music software really does network well. > > For a more typical home user, especially one who does not already know and > like GNU/Linux, I'm not sure if it would meet expectations in the developing > world as other than either as special purpose device (like used as an ebook > reader or robot controller) or alternatively, for a family who buys several, > as a family activity to use some of the built in "connectivist" software > (either what is there now or what might be speculatively available in the > future). Again from the review by an eight year old: > http://www.laptopmag.com/Review/My-8-Year-Old-Reviews-the-OLPC-XO.htm > "When given the choice between the XO and his current PC, Nicholas naturally > chose the latter. When asked whether he would rather use the XO or his > Leapster handheld learning system, he chose the Leapster. But when given the > choice between the XO and nothing, he was okay with the XO. And since that's > the choice facing the potential recipients of the XO, that may be enough of > a victory." > > So, I've actually somewhat discouraged someone I know who wants it just as a > good laptop present for their kid. If the recipient is not into the "giving" > part, or the "developing" part, or the "learning its quirky OS" part, I > think a kid would be disappointed, as in the above review. If they are into > giving, developing in Python, or learning GNU/Linux, then by all means, it > may be a great educational experience to be part of a movement, and to have > a portable platform one can write Python software for. I'm tempted to just > velcro one to the wall and use it to track the local weather -- although > I've seen cheaper dedicated computing devices one might use for that. > > Still, it does not, to me, seem to have the ease-of-use of an "appliance", > like these attempts: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaSmart > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat > given that I assume any purchaser will need to upgrade the software as it is > just the first big public release. Maybe in a few years a system like this > might ship with good enough software you could expect not to have to upgrade > it or add to it regularly. > > Still, I might be wrong, and it might be good enough out of the box, I'll > see; I've only worked with limited emulated development versions of it. > Obviously, it is the aim of the OLPC project and Sugar to deliver exactly > that ease of use and automatic migration and installation of applications. I > think we are still waiting for the verdict on that (currently reviews seem > mixed and the software seems still in flux). > > I'm also still not sure what I make of the legal liability of running a mesh > network node if yours is the link that is readily identifiable and connected > directly to the internet. Hopefully you can secure it with a pass phrase? > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Mesh_Security > > On a tangent, while one can disagree with the distribution plans for > developing nations, the idea behind selling a million at once was to > saturate an entire area with them to promote a wi-fi mesh across a big area, > as well as to make theft less likely. > > Personally, as one person on OLPC News suggested though, > "10 Reasons Why Negroponte Should Change OLPC Distribution" > http://www.olpcnews.com/sales_talk/countries/negroponte_change_olpc_distribution_.html > this idea might work better in a city -- where a progressive mayor might > order a few thousands to blanket the city area. > > As is said at that link: "Contrary to state and federal governments, in the > municipal scale, one enthusiast can make a project happen. City mayors are > usually eager to find projects that can put their own city on the map, even > if that means doing things nobody has ever done before. Also, a thousand > children and his families can represent five thousand voters, and that does > make a difference in the next elections, specially if you promise to expand > this one-school project to others when your term is ending. A couple > thousand dollars is the just the scale they can afford: around the cost of a > bridge, a new road or reforming a school. " > > I thought that was a really good idea -- focusing on developing cities not > developing nations. But then I've long been a Jane Jacobs fan. :-) > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs > > --Paul Fernhout > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From francois.schnell at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 12:24:57 2007 From: francois.schnell at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Schnell?=) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:24:57 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] [Olpc-open] OLPC G1G1 sales start today In-Reply-To: <864pfrdmms.fsf@pullcord.laptop.org> References: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> <4738AEBB.7040801@kurtz-fernhout.com> <13a83ca10711121605qae48c6bhf636dd5cae5e508d@mail.gmail.com> <864pfrdmms.fsf@pullcord.laptop.org> Message-ID: <13a83ca10711130324t59e51129tbf36f10aa60aed77@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 13, 2007 1:17 AM, Chris Ball wrote: > This is why we have had a Developers Program for over a year. It has > already sent a few thousand XOs to developers and content workers for > free. You are welcome to apply too. Hi, thanks for you reply, Yes I know about this program, this is a very good point. So, where are the thousands contributions? Don't you think """some""" of these XO (because they're rare) are more used to show up at mundane parties than for real contributions? Isn't it obvious that if OLPC let all passionate people *buy* the laptop the project will have much more contributions? OLPC expressed his commitment to Free Software and Open Source and that is great. But, Isn't it obvious that the actual distribution scheme can be seen has a kind of discrimination in contradiction with Free Software and Open Source core ideas? (You can distribute it to X but not Y and not this country but to this one, etc) Where in the Free Software Definition and OSI approved licences can find such policies? Nicholas Negroponte often site the Wikipedia project as a source of inspiration and that is great. But, Do you really think the wikipedia would be what it is today if it followed OLPC policies? (Ok you can maybe contribute if you apply for and we accept eventually and etc) The OLPC chose a vertical hierarchical bottom-down only distribution through governments for many arguably good reasons. It could have worked, But it doesn't: looking at the low actual orders now (where are the millions promised?) looking at the competition in place now (and rising) looking at the low ecosystem/community around the XO now When a strategy doesn't work anymore isn't it time to change it? Yes I believe the OLPC have the best technical and educational platefome but this confidence is also its biggest weakness. The competition is often making the necessary changes in their distribution scheme to compensate and win if the leader doesn't adapt. Computing history is filed with the best tools who never gained wide adoption because of that (ask Alan Kay about Java vs Smalltalk for example). So guys from the USS MIT-OLPC Startship, sorry to be provocative but even Spoke here doesn't understand the logic anymore and begins to suspect an "OLPC in the bottle syndrom": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_in_a_Bottle_(TNG_episode) So please, get the captain off the Holowdeck, put him back on the real Bridge because otherwise it could be "Shields up!! Prepare for inpact!" and mind the Borgs. :( francois > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Developers_Program > > - Chris. > -- > Chris Ball > From lac at openend.se Tue Nov 13 17:19:26 2007 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:19:26 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC G1G1 sales start today In-Reply-To: Message from "Paul D. Fernhout" of "Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:48:33 EST." <4738E651.60406@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> <4738AEBB.7040801@kurtz-fernhout.com> <4738E651.60406@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <200711131619.lADGJQiH003628@theraft.openend.se> Paul: look at http://www.gapminder.org/ see the videos. Ted 2007 in particular. There is no 'developing world' /developed world split any more. Laura who did not have time to readx all you wrote, but that caught my eye. Its not simply condescending to refer to them as the developing world -- because they excell in non-monetary things, its condescending because they have largely caught up in monetary things and you apparantly haven't noticed, like most people. Laura In a message of Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:48:33 EST, "Paul D. Fernhout" writes: >Paul D. Fernhout wrote: >> For a more typical home user, especially one who does not already know >and >> like GNU/Linux, I'm not sure if it would meet expectations in the devel >oping >> world as other than either as special purpose device (like used as an e >book >> reader or robot controller) or alternatively, for a family who buys sev >eral, >> as a family activity to use some of the built in "connectivist" softwar >e >> (either what is there now or what might be speculatively available in t >he >> future). > >That should have read "in the developed world", meaning like the USA. And > I >really should not be using "developed" / "developing" as they are loaded >terms (even though the OLPC project uses them too), since there is a lot >the >USA can learn from other countries, including poor ones, some of whom ran >k >higher in overall happiness in various surveys -- here's a different one: > http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/ > >On using Java/Jython and the OLPC: > "Pepper on the OLPC" > http://www.pepper.com/linux/olpc.html >"A technology preview of a special version of the Pepper environment is n >ow >available for the One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) XO laptop. This version of >Pepper for OLPC runs on the XO laptop and replaces the standard Sugar >environment while retaining the XO's Fedora-based Linux distribution. ... >The Pepper environment is written primarily in Java, though it includes o >pen >source components like Mozilla and Java that are written in C or C++. The >Pepper application framework supports Java, C, C++, XUL, HTML, etc. We're >also working on adding Python support soon. ... We'll be making the sourc >e >code for the Pepper for OLPC environment available soon. We're planning t >o >release it under an LGPL license. We'll also be sponsoring an open source >community to maintain the Pepper for OLPC environment." > >Using Pepper (if it is indeed released under the LGPL as announced above) >, >which is an environment built in Java and including JVM 1.5, I hope I can >run Jython on the OLPC. I'll have to try it and see. Maybe the Pepper peo >ple >do not know about Jython? Of course, software written there in Jython is >not >going to run on the regular OLPC environment (which is CPython+pyGTK). > >An informative pro-OLPC post at Slashdot: > "Worth Careful consideration" > http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=357665&cid=21325111 >An excerpt: "While you can certainly waste time and goof off on the web, >there is also a wealth of instructional material, learning material, free >encyclopedias, and help of all kinds to be had on message boards. Childre >n >could learn, for example, methods of improving local sanitation, >agricultural techniques, and health information which could end up saving >the developed world millions or billions of dollars in humanitarian aid. >They could also learn other languages which could open up entire worlds t >o >them. Even if they didn't have the internet, they could learn how to >program, how to compute, make art, photographs, drawings, and a whole bun >ch >of other stuff with it. Not to mention the fun factor. It's not an >educational panacea but it WILL change the world. " > >And as another slashdot poster says, you can't buy that many paper textbo >oks >for $200, especially compared to what you can cram into 1GB of Flash (or >even more if you get the files from local servers and delete old ones). A >nd >paper books have their own problems in areas of high humidity (mold, chew >ed >by rodents, fade in the sun, etc.). I think a lot of the economics that >governments are considering for deploying OLPC have more to do with >replacing plain old paper textbooks with a single laptop than any of the >issues of connectivity or simulation or learning to program which are mor >e >the sorts of things we think about for computers in, say, the USA or Euro >pe, >where we pretty much take purchasing textbooks and access to local librar >ies >of tens of thousands of printed books for granted. Still, even for USA >schools, OLPCs may make sense if they save money on textbooks. So, USA >school districts could save money of textbooks (if they were free, as in >here:) > "Global Text Project ??? Wiki Textbooks" > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/05/230201 > http://globaltext.org/ >(or even just at direct author royalty cost) and kids get Python and >educational simulations thrown in as a bonus. Plus, they get a lighter lo >ad >and less back pain. > "Heavy backpacks lead to early strain and pain for schoolkids" >http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2001/fyi/teachers.ednews/02/13/backpack.pai >n.ap/ > >Anyway, as an ebook reader alone the OLPC might be worth the US$425 cost, >which is only a $100 more than what a Sony Reader costs with an extra >waterproof cover, and that amount is less than the more flexible (but >heavier) iRex Iliad. See: > http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5664 >I think key to happiness with the OLPC in the USA is reduced expectations >. >Consider that for $425, you get an OLPC ebook reader than runs Python, an >d >then some kid somewhere else with limited access to books gets one too. I >'ll >be curious to compare them side-by-side with an ebook reader. Maybe if th >at >eight year old reviewer was asked -- would you rather carry a three pound >OLPC XO-1 back and forth to activities or two or three times as much weig >ht >in textbooks in your backpack, they might have gone for the OLPC. > >--Paul Fernhout > >_______________________________________________ >Edu-sig mailing list >Edu-sig at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Tue Nov 13 23:25:19 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:25:19 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC G1G1 sales start today In-Reply-To: <200711131619.lADGJQiH003628@theraft.openend.se> References: <47386187.3000709@kurtz-fernhout.com> <4738AEBB.7040801@kurtz-fernhout.com> <4738E651.60406@kurtz-fernhout.com> <200711131619.lADGJQiH003628@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <473A244F.80204@kurtz-fernhout.com> Laura- Wow. Gapminder's a great site. Thanks for the link and the perspective. That TED 2007 presentation you mention is an amazing use of dynamic computer graphics to make points about social and economic change. I wonder what that was originally implemented in? Be interesting if it was Python? It's in part kind of like an interactive version of the _Material World: A Global Family Portrait_ book, see: http://www.amazon.com/Material-World-Global-Family-Portrait/dp/0871564300 That book, more than anything, is what I base my conceptions on; perhaps they are incorrect? One review writes: "Menzel's idea was brilliant -- to identify a statistically average family in every corner of the world, and photograph them and all of their belongings, as well as capture aspects of their daily life on film." But I'd be happy to agree there is a law of diminishing returns in material wealth. In fact, perhaps even negative returns once you have so many possessions they begin to own you and the clutter cramps your space and life. Still, the gapminder chart here http://www.gapminder.org/world/ on income vs. life expectancy still has to have a logarithmic axis for income. For example, South Africa, one of the highest blue dots in terms of per-capita income, and Argentina, one if the highest yellow dots, still only have 1/3 the USA per capita income. Although I'm not fully sure what that means since living costs for food, housing, and often fuel are lower in, say, many southern countries. So it may well be that the lifestyles for most people have reached near parity (ignoring some pricey items perhaps, which used to include computers), so I appreciate your correction. Still, clearly there remain a lot of bubbles on that graph which are below $4000 per capita, and who a conventional $1000+ laptop is a big chunk of income, especially if it won't last long exposed to non-climate-controlled conditions. And even the speaker in that talk suggests many nations are lagging 30-40 years behind where the USA was on multiple indicators. The fundamental problem remains that if much of the success of the currently rich (per capita) countries was built to a great extent on the backs of the poor (per capita) countries, how can the poor countries get out of poverty by following that plan? Who will they have left to do their low paying dirty work? I think OLPC in a way actually addresses this issue, by bringing hope for a post-scarcity information age of abundance for all. Python and GNU/Linux and other free and open source efforts give hope towards that end too -- that we, through information and education and innovation and creativity and sharing, are building a set of new possibilities that can transcend the old divides based on managing perceived scarcity of most things. That we can return to the better part of the old (even pre-agricultural hunter/gatherer) cultures of abundance and sharing which free and open source efforts exemplify. By the way -- 228 hits on Google for "developing world" on the OLPC site: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Flaptop.org%2F+%22developing+world%22 Maybe that says something about attitudes and the project? That TED 2007 presented used the term "emerging economies". Is that really much better? I like the quote, often attributed to Lila Watson, but not quite correctly: http://northlandposter.com/blog/2006/12/18/lila-watson-if-you-have-come-to-help-me-you-are-wasting-your-time-but-if-you-have-come-because-your-liberation-is-bound-up-with-mine-then-let-us-work-together/ which says: "If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together." To the extent the OLPC spirit embodies that, despite its failings, I think it is worth supporting. And the funny thing about a big free and open source project like OLPC is that there likely is no one perception one can pin down as to what the entire project staff (volunteer or paid) believes. It's just a bunch of people (including a few leaders) bumbling along with a variety of aspirations (and I mean that in a nice way, the oft cited adage for such projects being "like herding cats"). Such a model has both its strengths and its weaknesses. But, even if the hardware doesn't succeed in a big way, the project may have succeeded in an enormous way by changing people's attitudes towards what is possible with computers and education. And, as, you suggest, attitude is very important. --Paul Fernhout Laura Creighton wrote: > Paul: look at > http://www.gapminder.org/ > > see the videos. Ted 2007 in particular. > > There is no 'developing world' /developed world split any more. > > Laura who did not have time to readx all you wrote, but > that caught my eye. Its not simply condescending to refer to > them as the developing world -- because they excell in non-monetary > things, its condescending because they have largely caught up in monetary > things and you apparantly haven't noticed, like most people. > In a message of Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:48:33 EST, "Paul D. Fernhout" writes: >> Paul D. Fernhout wrote: >> And I >> really should not be using "developed" / "developing" as they are loaded >> terms (even though the OLPC project uses them too), since there is a lot >> the >> USA can learn from other countries, including poor ones, some of whom rank >> higher in overall happiness in various surveys -- here's a different one: >> http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/ From lederer.dominique at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 14:09:49 2007 From: lederer.dominique at gmail.com (Dominique Lederer) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:09:49 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] Thesis about Python & Zope In-Reply-To: <4438248D-9657-4AEB-B639-BE2234105EEF@hasecke.com> References: <4438248D-9657-4AEB-B639-BE2234105EEF@hasecke.com> Message-ID: <473D969D.4060309@gmail.com> Jan Ulrich Hasecke schrieb: > Hi, > > did anybody already posted this link? > > http://www.stadtgespraeche.com/technik > > It is a thesis in German about Python and Zope in education. The only > one in German AFAIK. > > Next week I have a meeting as representative of the parents in the > school of my boys. And the agenda sounds as if there are chances to > discuss new approaches in teaching computer science. > > Up to now they only sporadically uses Openoffice.org. They heard about > Open Source Software but Python is the name of a serpent. ;-) > > I hope to say something about Python, I even suggested a workshop and I > would like to back up my words with educational studies. > > I know there are tons of good links in the archives of this list, but I > am so busy that I fear I could not evaluate them. It would be more than > nice, if you could point me to a page with links to revelant studies or > just post links to new studies. Studies with european context preferred. > > TIA > juh Hi Unfortunately, the ressources are spread all over the web. I was also in desperate need of such a page when i wrote this thesis :) Furthermore, most papers are locked behind the ACM Portal or similar stuff. But you could start with the Bibliography of my thesis or with the thesis itself. If you like some of the papers i used, just write me. cheers Dominique From warren.sande at rogers.com Sun Nov 25 04:47:48 2007 From: warren.sande at rogers.com (Warren Sande) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:47:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Edu-sig] Kids Programming Book Message-ID: <488750.49375.qm@web88114.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Edu-Sig Members, Greetings. Apologies in advance for the long message. I am the author of a new book: "Computer Programming for Kids" The full title is "Computer Programming for Kids (and other beginners) Using Python". The book's publisher is Manning Publications. It will be available in late spring of 2008. This is an introduction to computer programming for kids age 8 and up. It uses clear, friendly language, fun examples, illustrations, and a bit of silliness to teach the basic concepts of computer programming. The book is intended to be suitable for use at home or in a school setting, as part of an elementary/middle school/junior high computer literacy program. I strongly believe that some level of knowledge in programming should be given to all students. This is not just for kids who want to grow up to be programmers. The level of computer literacy required in all walks of like is increasing, and some knowledge of programming empowers users and removes barriers. It also teaches critical and logical thinking and reinforces skills from other parts of the curriculum such as math, science, and literacy. (I know I'm preaching to the choir here...) The manuscript is 90+% complete, and we are looking for potential reviewers for the complete manuscript. The book has had some interim reviews, but we would like to expand the scope a bit for the final review and include children and more educators. Also, instead of a simple read-through, we would ideally like reviewers (especially the kids) to install Python and the necessary modules and actually work through the examples. The final review should be starting around mid-December. (This will give kids and teachers Christmas break to work on it.) Why would someone want to do this? Here are some of the benefits as I see them: (my "sales pitch" to potential reviewers) - You get to see some of how the book writing, editing and production process works - a bit of insight into the publishing world. - You get to have input - a say in how the finished book will look. - You get your name published in the book, an acknowledgement of your help and efforts for all to see. - You get to see this unique new book before anyone else! - You (or your class) get a free copy of the finished book. Here is what is expected: 1. Read the whole book and try the examples. This is the kind of book where you mostly have to read it in front of the computer and try things as you go along. You learn programming by doing, not just by reading. We will provide an installer that will install everything required. 2. Try to answer the self-test questions at the end of each chapter. 3. Answer some questions for us about what you thought of the book and how we could make it better. I won't kid you, this is real work. The book will be 350 - 400 pages, 25 chapters. It will probably take several weeks of your spare time to work though the book: read it, try the examples, do the test questions, and answer our "survey" questions. To give you an idea, here are some of the things we will be asking: - Did all of the example programs work as they were supposed to? If not, which ones, and what happened? - Did you understand what the book was trying to teach (chapter by chapter)? - Did the examples make sense? Did they help reinforce the idea being covered? - Can you think of any other examples that would make things more clear? More fun? More relevant to kids? - Can you think of any ideas for pictures, diagrams, cartoons, etc. that would help explain things? Where and what kind of picture? If you or your child/student is up for the challenge, we would love to have your help with this exciting project. Sincerely, Warren Sande warren.sande at rogers.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20071124/fb68cf56/attachment.htm From jasonrbriggs at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 11:56:14 2007 From: jasonrbriggs at gmail.com (Jason R Briggs) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:56:14 +1300 Subject: [Edu-sig] python for kids... Message-ID: <474D494E.7040102@gmail.com> Hi all Don't know if anyone on this list has been watching my feed, but I've made a bunch of updates to "Snake Wrangling For Kids" (partly caused by converting it to LaTeX). Anyway, the latest version fixes a bunch of problems I've noticed (such as referring to functions before explaining what functions were... sigh), and finally starts adding a few basic exercises at the end of some of the chapters (which was suggested about a month or so ago, I seem to recall). In regard to the exercises, has anyone got any other suggestions for the "Things to try" sections? Obviously given the context of the chapters. Code snippets gratefully received (and will be attributed in the preamble if used). As before, the latest download can be found here: http://www.briggs.net.nz/log/writing/snake-wrangling-for-kids/ The LaTeX version is also a good deal smaller than the previous Word Processor version (plus adds a nicer ToC and index). Hope you like it. Regards, and thanks again for prior advice, Jason From lavendula6654 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 30 08:28:44 2007 From: lavendula6654 at yahoo.com (Elaine) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:28:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Edu-sig] Ruby on Rails course at Foothill College Message-ID: <378660.91850.qm@web31707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you would like to get an introduction to web application development with Ruby on Rails, Foothill College in Los Altos Hills, CA is offering a course starting Tues. evening, January 8th, 2008, at 6pm. The course is designed for students who are already familiar with web application development using tools such as Perl or PHP. Here is the course description: COIN 67 RUBY ON RAILS - WEB APPLICATION DEVELOPMENT 5 Units Introduction to web application development with Ruby on Rails. Students learn how to create database-driven web applications using the Ruby language and the Rails framework. Fours hours lecture, four hours laboratory. Advisories: Prior programming experience and CIS 52A or database experience. Please preregister for Winter quarter by going to: http://www.foothill.fhda.edu/reg/index.php ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From jimleisy at fbeedle.com Fri Nov 30 21:50:12 2007 From: jimleisy at fbeedle.com (jim leisy) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:50:12 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] manuscript reviewers Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071130124853.02edbdb0@192.168.0.20> Hi--We are seeking college professors to review manuscripts in the following areas: CS 0 Using Python CS 1 Using Python CS2 Data Structures Using Python with a transition to C++ If you are interested, please contact me via email: jimleisy at fbeedle.com I am the publisher for Python books written by John Zelle, Brad Miller and David Ranum. Thanks! Jim Leisy Publisher Franklin, Beedle & Associates Incorporated William, James & Company www.fbeedle.com www.wmjasco.com 503-682-7668 voice 503-682-7638 fax 800-322-2665 Toll Free in USA 8536 SW St Helens Drive, Suite D Wilsonville, Oregon 97070 USA Jim Leisy Publisher Franklin, Beedle & Associates Incorporated William, James & Company www.fbeedle.com www.wmjasco.com 503-682-7668 voice 503-682-7638 fax 800-322-2665 Toll Free in USA 8536 SW St Helens Drive, Suite D Wilsonville, Oregon 97070 USA