From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 16:22:55 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:22:55 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for Teachers approved, woo hoo
Message-ID: <f604188c0812010722h22cb6428sc346d822ff6c9c27@mail.gmail.com>

So I just learned we've gotten a green light for Python for Teachers
already.

I've started circulating promotional materials already:

http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1863073&tstart=0

Kirby

PS:  anyone have one of these Acers?  Good deal?  Ubuntu even?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3070254912/
(might recommend to students, then there's the HP for $100
more -- same Photostream).
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From roberto03 at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 20:58:08 2008
From: roberto03 at gmail.com (roberto)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:58:08 +0100
Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for Teachers approved, woo hoo
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812010722h22cb6428sc346d822ff6c9c27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812010722h22cb6428sc346d822ff6c9c27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4bcde3e10812011158l57d2e7c9la340fd7c5cc53e09@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/1 kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com>:
>
> So I just learned we've gotten a green light for Python for Teachers
> already.
>
> I've started circulating promotional materials already:
>
> http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1863073&tstart=0
>
> Kirby

is that a specific session dedicated to teachers ? isn't it ?
just to check if i understood correctly

it would be really interesting

>
> PS:  anyone have one of these Acers?  Good deal?  Ubuntu even?
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3070254912/
> (might recommend to students, then there's the HP for $100
> more -- same Photostream).
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>



-- 
roberto
OS: GNU/Linux
       Debian
       Kubuntu, Edubuntu

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 22:48:02 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:48:02 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for Teachers approved, woo hoo
In-Reply-To: <4bcde3e10812011158l57d2e7c9la340fd7c5cc53e09@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812010722h22cb6428sc346d822ff6c9c27@mail.gmail.com>
	<4bcde3e10812011158l57d2e7c9la340fd7c5cc53e09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812011348i5d5ab51bh6c39755981e30b2c@mail.gmail.com>

No not at all.  Teachers are very welcome but this is for private sector
geeks, especially in companies large enough to have internal training
facilities (e.g. Intel).  Pretend it's the future already, you're in high
school, and this is what it's like.  A science fiction assumption -- might
have Robie the Robot with Lost in Space music, in one of the slides.  Faux
futurism meets the real deal (because in actual fact, here we are, learning
RSA, vector arithmetic, group theory -- as a way to learn Python, pair
programming best practices.

Kirby


On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:58 AM, roberto <roberto03 at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2008/12/1 kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com>:
> >
> > So I just learned we've gotten a green light for Python for Teachers
> > already.
> >
> > I've started circulating promotional materials already:
> >
> > http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1863073&tstart=0
> >
> > Kirby
>
> is that a specific session dedicated to teachers ? isn't it ?
> just to check if i understood correctly
>
> it would be really interesting
>
> >
> > PS:  anyone have one of these Acers?  Good deal?  Ubuntu even?
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3070254912/
> > (might recommend to students, then there's the HP for $100
> > more -- same Photostream).
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Edu-sig mailing list
> > Edu-sig at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> roberto
> OS: GNU/Linux
>       Debian
>       Kubuntu, Edubuntu
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 06:19:56 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:19:56 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] another Rich Data Structure (Pythonic)
Message-ID: <f604188c0812032119y26433fr37792cc2024dfc4b@mail.gmail.com>

In commemoration of Python 3.0's official final release, just 3 or so
hours ago, I append a Python 3.0 program.

OK, so it's really just a dictionary with a new style print statement,
so runs in 2.x just as easily (change the print statement).

Plus it's all Latin-1 so that's not really so futuristic either.

Some relevant futurism here:
http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2008/12/teacher-resources.html

BTW, looks interesting:  http://sourceforge.net/projects/improsculpt/

Python rocks,

Kirby


#!/bin/python3.0

navams = {"Kiowa Apache":[("Anadarko", "OK", 1913)],
"Jicarilla Apache":[("Jicarilla Res","NM", 1913)],
"Mescalero Apache":[("Mescalero Apache Res","NM", 1913)],
"San Carlos Apache":[("San Carlos Res", "AZ", 1913)],
"White Mountain Apache":[("San Carlos Res", "AZ", 1913)],
"Arapaho":[("El Reno", "OK", 1913),("Wind River Res", "WY", 1913)],
"Arikara":[("Elbowoods, Fort Berthold Res", "ND", 1913)],
"Assiniboine": [("Crow Reservation", "MT", 1909),
                ("Harlem, Fort Belknap Res", "MT", 1913),
                ("Poplar, Fort Peck Res", "MT", 1913)],
"Bannock":[("Fort Hall Res", "ID", 1913)],
"Blackfoot":[("Crow Res", "MT", 1908),
             ("Crow Res", "MT", 1909),
             ("Browning, Blackfoot Res", "MT", 1913),
             ("Spokane", "WA", 1913)],
"Blood":[("Browning, Blackfoot Res", "MT", 1913)],
"Piegan":[("Browning, Blackfoot Res", "MT", 1913)],
"Cahuilla":[("Banning, Mission Indians Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Caddo":[("Anadarko", "OK", 1913)],
"Cayuse":[("Pendleton, Umatilla Res", "OR",1913)],
"Cherokee":[("Tahlequah", "OK", 1913)],
"Chewella":[("Spokane, Colville Res", "WA",1913)],
"Cheyenne":[("Crow Res", "MT", 1908),
            ("Crow Res", "MT", 1909)],
"Northern Cheyenne": [("Lame Deer, Tongue River Res", "MT", 1913)],
"Southern Cheyenne": [("Crow Res", "MT", 1909),
                      ("El Reno", "OK", 1913)],
"Chickasaw": [("Tishomingo", "OK",1913)],
"Chippewa": [("Browning, Blackfoot Res", "MT", 1913),
             ("Long Lake Res", "MN", 1913),
             ("White Earth, White Earth Res", "MN", 1913),
             ("Ashland, Bad River Res", "WI", 1913)],
"Lac Courte D' Oreille": [("Ashland, Bad River Res","WI", 1913)],
"Lac Du Flambeau": [("Ashland", "Bad River Res", "WI",1913)],
"Leech lake Chippewa": [("Omigum, Leech Lake Res", "MN", 1913)],
"Red Cliff Chippewa": [("Ashland, Bad River Res", "WI", 1913)],
"Red Lake Chippewa": [("Omigum, Leech Lake Res", "MN", 1913)],
"Turtle Mountain": [("Devil's Lake Res", "ND", 1913)],
"Choctaw": [("Tuskahoma", "OK", 1913)],
"Coeur D'Alene": [("Tekoa", "WA", 1913),
                  ("Spokane, Spokane Res", "WA",1913)],
"Shasta": [("Warm Springs Res", "OR", 1913)],
"Comanche": [("Crow Res", "MT", 1909), ("Anadarko", "OK", 1913)],
"Concow": [("Convola, Round Valley Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Creek": [("Okmulgee", "OK", 1913)],
"Crow": [("Crow Res", "MT", 1909),
         ("Crow Res", "MT", 1913)],
"Delaware": [("Anadarko", "OK", 1913)],
"Flathead": [("Spokane, Flathead Res", "WA", 1913),
         ("Jocko, Flathead Res", "MT", 1913),
         ("Ravalli, Flathead Res", "MT")],
"Gros Ventre": [("Crow Res", "MT", 1909),
                ("Harlem, Fort Belknap Res", "MT", 1913)],
"Havasupai": [("Cataract Canyon, Havasupai Res, Grand Canyon", "AZ", 1913)],
"Hidatsa": [("Elbowoods, Fort Berthold Res","ND", 1913)],
"Hoh": [("Neah Bay, Makah Reservation", "WA", 1913)],
"Hoopa": [("Hoopa Valley Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Hopi": [("Hopi Res", "AZ", 1913)],
"Cayuga": [("Cattanaugus Res", "NY", 1913),
           ("Alleghany Res", "NY", 1913)],
"Mohawk": [("Hogansburg, St. Regis Res", "NY", 1913)],
"Oneida": [("Oneida, Oneida Res", "WI",1913)],
"Onondaga": [("Syracuse, Omondaga Res", "NY", 1913)],
"Seneca": [("Akron, Tonawanda Res", "NY", 1913),
           ("Cattaraugus Res", "NY", 1913),
           ("Alleghany Res", "NY", 1913),
           ("Thomas Indian School, Cattaraugus Res, Salamanca", "NY", 1913)],
"Tuscarora": [("Niagara, Tuscarora Res", "NY", 1913)],
"Kalapuya": [("Siletz, Siletz Res", "OR", 1913)],
"Kalispel": [("Spokane, Kalispel Res", "WA", 1913)],
"Kansa": [("Otoe","OK", 1913)],
"Kickapoo": [("Shawnee", "OK", 1913)],
"Kiowa": [("Crow Res", "MT", 1909),
          ("Anadarko, OK", 1913)],
"Klamath": [("Hoopa Valley Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Klamath Falls": [("Klamath Res", "OR", 1913)],
"Kootenai": [("Jocko, Flathead Res", "MT", 1913)],
"La Jolla": [("Banning, Mission Indians Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Lake": [("Davenport, Colville Res", "WA", 1913)],
"Lemmi": [("Ft. Hall, Ft. Hall Res", "ID", 1913)],
"Makah": [("Neah Bay, Makah Res", "WA", 1913)],
"Mandan":[("Elbowoods, Fort Berthold Res", "ND", 1913)],
"Maricopa": [("Sacaton, Gila Res", "AZ", 1913)],
"Martinez": [("Banning, Mission Indians Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Menominee": [("Neopit, Menominee Res", "WI",1913)],
"Mesa Grande": [("Banning, Mission Indians Res","CA", 1913)],
"Mission Indians": [("Banning, Mission Indians Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Moallalla": [("Siletz, Siletz Res", "OR", 1913)],
"Modoc": [("Klamath Falls, Klamath Res","OR", 1913)],
"Mojave":[("Crow Res", "MT",1909),
          ("Parker, Mojave Res", "AZ",1913)],
"Morongo":[("Banning, Mission Indians Res", "CA",1913),
           ("Covolo, Round Valley Res", "CA")],
"Navajo": [("Ganado, Navajo Res", "AZ",1913)],
"Nes Pelem": [("Spokane, Spokane Res", "WA", 1913)],
"Nez Perce": [("Lapwai, Nez Perce Res", "ID", 1913)],
"Spokane": [("Spokane Res", "WA", 1913)],
"Nisqualli": [("Tulalip, Tulalip Res","WA",1913)],
"Nomelackie":[("Covalo, Round Valley Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Okanagon": [("Davenport, Colville Res", "WA",1913)],
"Omaha": [("Winnebago, Winnebago Res", "NE", 1913)],
"Osage": [("Pawhuska, Osage Res", "OK", 1913)],
"Osetto": [("Neah Bay, Makah Res", "WA", 1913)],
"Otoe-Missouri": [("Otoe", "OK", 1913)],
"Paiute": [("Klamath Res", "OR", 1913),
          ("Warm Springs Res", "OR", 1913)],
"Pala Mission": [("Pala", "CA", 1913),
                 ("Pauma Res", "CA")],
"Papago": [("San Xavier Res","AZ",1913),
           ("Sacaton, Gila River Res","AZ",1913)],
"Pawnee": [("Pawnee", "OK", 1913)],
"Pechango": [("Pala", "CA", 1913)],
"Pima": [("Sacaton, Gila River Res", "AZ", 1913)],
"Pitt River": [("Covolo, Round Valley Res", "CA", 1913),
               ("Klamath Res", "OR", 1913)],
"Ponca": [("Otoe", "OK", 1913)],
"Potowatomie": [("Shawnee", "OK", 1913)],
"Pueblo": [("Santa Fe", "NM", 1913)],
"Acoma": [("Acoma Res", "NM", 1913)],
"Isleta": [("Isleta Res", "NM", 1913)],
"Laguna": [("Casa Blanca, Laguna Res", "NM", 1913)],
"Nambe": [("Santa Fe", "NM", 1913)],
"San Idlefonso": [("Santa Fe", "NM", 1913)],
"San Juan": [("Santa Fe", "NM", 1913)],
"Santa Clara": [("Santa Fe", "NM", 1913)],
"Taos": [("Taos", "NM", 1913)],
"Tesuque": [("Santa Fe", "NM", 1913)],
"Puyallup": [("Tacoma", "WA", 1913)],
"Quileute": [("Neah Bay, Makah Res", "WA", 1859)],
"Redwood": [("Covolo, Round Valley Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Rincon": [("Banning, Mission Indian Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Sac and Fox": [("Shawnee", "OK", 1913)],
"Salt River": [("Sacaton, Gila River Res", "AZ", 1913)],
"San Poil": [("Spokane, Colville Res", "WA", 1913)],
"Salish": [("Jocko, Flathead Res", "MT", 1913)],
"Seminole": [("Wewoka", "OK", 1913)],
"Serano": [("Banning, Mission Indians Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Shasta": [("Siletz, Siletz Res", "OR", 1913)],
"Shawnee": [("Shawnee", "OK", 1913)],
"Shinnecock": [("South Hampton, Long Island", "NY", 1913)],
"Shoshone": [("Wind River, Wind River Res", "WY", 1913),
             ("Fort Hall, Fort Hall Res", "ID")],
"Siletz": [("Siletz Res", "OR", 1913)],
"Blackfeet": [("Fort Yates, Standing Rock Res", "ND", 1913)],
"Lower Brul": [("Rosebud, Rosebud Res", "SD",1913)],
"Cheyenne River": [("Crow Res", "MT", 1909)],
"Cut Head": [("Devil's Lake Res", "ND", 1913)],
"Devil's Lake": [("Devil's Lake Res", "ND", 1913)],
"Hunkpapa": [("Fort Yates, Standing Rock Res", "ND", 1913)],
"Miniconjou": [("Cheyenne River Res", "SD", 1913)],
"Oglala": [ ("Crow Res", "MT", 1909),
            ("Pine Ridge, Pine Ridge Res", "SD", 1913),
            ("Pine Ridge, Pine Ridge Res", "SD", 1920)],
"Crow Creek Band": [("Southern Yankton, Crow Res", "MT", 1909)],
"Southern Yankton": [("Crow Res", "MT", 1909)],
"Sisseton": [("Devil's Lake Res", "ND", 1913)],
"Wahpeton": [("Devil's Lake Res", "ND", 1913)],
"Yankton Sioux": [("Poplar, Fort Peck Res", "MT", 1913),
                  ("Fort Yates, Standing Rock Res", "ND", 1913)],
"Yanktonai Sioux": [("Poplar, Fort peck Res", "MT", 1913),
                    ("Fort Yates, Standing Rock Res", "ND", 1913),
                    ("Crow Creek Res","SD", 1913),
                    ("Greenwood, Yanktonai Sioux Res", "SD", 1913),
                    ("Poplar, Fort Peck Res", "MT")],
"Lower Yanktonai": [("Fort Yates, Standing Rock Res", "ND", 1913),
               ("Crow Creek Res", "SD", 1913)],
"Skyomish": [("Tulalip, Tulalip Res", "WA", 1913)],
"Snohomish": [("Tulalip, Tulalip Res", "WA", 1913)],
"Snoqualmie": [("Tulalip, Tulalip Res", "WA", 1913)],
"Soboba": [("Banning, Mission Indians Res", "CA",1913)],
"Spokane": [("Spokane, Spokane Res", "WA",1913)],
"Stillaguamish": [("Arlington, Stillaguamish Res", "WA", 1976)],
"Stockbridge": [("Neopit, Menominee Res", "WI",1913)],
"Suquamish": [("Fort Madison, Suquamish Res", "WA",1913)],
"Tulalip": [("Tulalip", "WA", 1913)],
"Uintah": [("Fort Duchesne, Uintah & Ouray Res", "UT", 1913)],
"Umatilla": [("Crow Res", "MT", 1909), ("Pendleton, Umatilla Res", "OR",1913)],
"Uncompagre": [("Fort Duchesne, Uintah And Ouray Res", "UT",1913)],
"Southern Ute": [("Ignacio", "CO", 1913)],
"Walla Walla": [("Pendleton, Umatilla Res", "OR", 1913)],
"Wasco": [("Warm Springs, Warm Springs Res", "OR", 1913)],
"Winnebago": [("Winnebago, Winnebago Res", "NE", 1913)],
"Wichita": [("Anadarko", "OK", 1913)],
"Wylackie": [("Covolo, Round Valley Res", "CA", 1913)],
"Yahi": [("Yana, San Francisco", "CA", 1913)],
"Yakima": [("North Yakima", "WA", 1859)],
"Yuma": [("Yuma, Yuma Res", "CA", 1913)]}

def test():
    print(navams['Stillaguamish'])

if __name__ == "__main__":
    test()

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 20:37:21 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:37:21 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Clarifying my role @ Pycon for Teachers
Message-ID: <f604188c0812061137w94c523t28a73f63a9e2964a@mail.gmail.com>

Just to clarify a little more, how I'm envisioning Python for Teachers, in
case some of you are thinking about attending:

I'm wanting to stay anchored in the Pycon demographic, which is mostly
private sector geeks with dependents in many cases, not many high school
math teachers or anything close.

My premise, then, is I'm a manager type in the Silicon Forest (not a lie)
and am surrounded by large organizations that are short on geeks, in terms
of having them on board, and don't even know it, because many big business
subcultures haven't tuned in any of what we on this list probably take for
granted:  a thriving geek culture based in open source sharing and free
access to tools.  There're still stuck in the COBOL world, or even with
MUMPS (see my "suMerian" meme, also math-thinking-l).

As such a manager, I'm frustrated with the schooling around here, but rather
than just whine and complain, I get access to classrooms and start showing
off how it might really be done, were those of my breed allowed to interact
with the kids (rarely happens, rules prevent -- even though I've been
cleared at the state level to work with kids, with fingerprinting and
everything, same as any union teacher).

But among peers, fellow geeks, this is more just an excuse to tell some
company war stories, share Python source, and enjoy the science fiction
feeling of being in a culture that *we* had designed, rather than muggles,
i.e. those who don't know what SQL means, even after enduring like four
years of "mathematics" pre-college (not they're fault -- SQL doesn't make it
past the relevance filters, gotta learn more about factoring polynomials,
like you'll need on the job (snicker)).

What if circus performers designed your gym class?  It wouldn't be like it
is.  What if Pythonistas taught your junior how to program math objects,
like vectors and polynomials.  Why, he'd grow up employable, ready to
rumble, ready for work, maybe without even going to college right away (that
could come later, on the company's dime maybe).  As a parent, you'd be
pleased.  Finally, junior is excited about hard fun, programs just for the
love of it (pretty freakish).

Steve Holden has a very clear sense of the job market as well, what's out
there in terms of opportunities, trends.  I'm hoping he'll help keep me
focused, so if I get too pedantic with the RSA bit (a little group theory,
easy Python), or with VPython vectors (rbf.py), he can suggest "too much
like a math teacher" (subtle facial cues maybe) and I'll snap out of it.
I'm a CEO not some nutty professor, praise Allah, plus I don't plan on doing
too much of the talking.  The premise of peer programming is peers after
all, so I'm more just a guide.

Speaking of the job market, I think I said on this list that I'm subscribing
to the philosophy that no one geek ever gets to sit on a code pile as the
only sole responsible reader and writer thereof.  The days of the solo code
pile are over, though of course we still have time alone in which to
collaborate asynchronously.

Kirby Urner
4Dsolutions.net
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From macquigg at ece.arizona.edu  Mon Dec  8 15:57:47 2008
From: macquigg at ece.arizona.edu (David MacQuigg)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 07:57:47 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812061137w94c523t28a73f63a9e2964a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>

Kirby,

This is very well written appeal, but in this mailing list, you may be preaching to the choir.  What I would like to see is a discussion of *why* there is not more teaching of programming in high school.  I can't seem to get an answer from the few high-school teachers and students I have asked. I suspect it has something to do with requiring all kids to have their own computers, not wanting the rich to have an advantage over the poor, etc.  I've thought about teaching high school myself, but the bureaucracy seems overwhelming.

At 11:37 AM 12/6/2008 -0800, kirby urner wrote:

>...
>
>As such a manager, I'm frustrated with the schooling around here, but rather than just whine and complain, I get access to classrooms and start showing off how it might really be done, were those of my breed allowed to interact with the kids (rarely happens, rules prevent -- even though I've been cleared at the state level to work with kids, with fingerprinting and everything, same as any union teacher).  
>
>But among peers, fellow geeks, this is more just an excuse to tell some company war stories, share Python source, and enjoy the science fiction feeling of being in a culture that *we* had designed, rather than muggles, i.e. those who don't know what SQL means, even after enduring like four years of "mathematics" pre-college (not they're fault -- SQL doesn't make it past the relevance filters, gotta learn more about factoring polynomials, like you'll need on the job (snicker)).
>
>What if circus performers designed your gym class?  It wouldn't be like it is.  What if Pythonistas taught your junior how to program math objects, like vectors and polynomials.  Why, he'd grow up employable, ready to rumble, ready for work, maybe without even going to college right away (that could come later, on the company's dime maybe).  As a parent, you'd be pleased.  Finally, junior is excited about hard fun, programs just for the love of it (pretty freakish).
>
>...
>
>Kirby Urner
>4Dsolutions.net



From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 17:22:12 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:22:12 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <f604188c0812061137w94c523t28a73f63a9e2964a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812080822i33db5252v633c2e16a82ed9d6@mail.gmail.com>

I think you're spot on about the "advantage over the poor" thing, as our
stronger public schools have a parent base that will fund and support Linux
labs, whereas where my daughter goes, they can't afford enough chairs for
the cafeteria, everyone has to spill out into Burgerville and Wendy's for
some reason, fancy that (maybe some programming involved, some proprietary
source we don't see?).

But in Portland, it's a given that Linux is woven into our culture.  We have
theatrical events around open source (e.g. Ignite...! at the Bagdad)
http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/872418/  Torvalds lives here.  We're the
capital of open source, or is that Oregon City?

So yeah, Portland is a rich city, very little sign of any economic downturn,
lots of starving in the hinterlands per usual, because a lot of us learned a
callous, neglectful, neo-Malthusian economics in public school, as that's
what our grandfather's fathers thought made the most sense (Malthus was a
London School of Economics geek, did his best to play world game without
Google Earth, poor slob).

My plan is to fly to Chicago and help bring those midwesterners up to speed,
on the assumption my counterparts "back east" are handling New York, HQS of
our BFI and so on.  Actually, it's much smaller potatoes, not renting that
blimp, just chatting with my peers, already "on the inside" in education
(met a lot of you last year), and well position to help with the steering,
keeping us moving towards a brighter tomorrow, wherein kids learn that "math
is an extensible type system" and have Python right there on their desktops
(with tons of other fun toyz), to drive that point home.

My co-conspirators on this one are Steve Holden, a Gandalf in Python Nation
(very high rank), and Ian Benson (some kind of Elf? -- not one of ours
quite, sociality.tv ).  These are both highly skilled guys (XY) and it's a
real privilege to work with 'em, brings some balance to my day jobs, where I
mostly work with highly skilled gals (XX).  My HR chief, Suzanne, is like
the smartest person alive, and Wicca wise (senior partner for whom DWA is
named, my partnership, files and IRS 1065, business alias 4D Solutions per
US Bank records, 4D Studios another moniker... I could go on).

I guess my advice to the Obama team would be to avoid any "one size fits
all" attempts to converge to some "national curriculum" like many do in
Europe.  Each of the 50 states needs breathing room and none of them need
Washington DC to be bossing them around like they're slaves of some central
know-it-all.  We're a Federation, and this was never a monarchy.

This is even more pronounced in my case for example, out here on the west
coast.  My reality includes such as Angel of the Winds, Spirit Mountain...
Kahneetah, huge IT centers with state of the art software, leave Google in
the dust in terms of sophistication in some ways.  All very proprietary
though, you'll probably never see the inside of these IT temples unless you
get the tour before they open (how Mormons do it).  Yes, I'm talking
casinos, strategically positioned within semi-sovereign nations that
reinvest profits rather wisely, and for the long haul, earning lots of
community good will -- an economic asset even in troubled times.

In sum, I feel confidant that the Silicon Forest has much to offer the
Chicagoans, plus I was actually born there, so it's like another homecoming
for me (only got into the city once last year, Pycon being in the outskirts,
near O'Hare, still managed to miss my plane though, ended up driving all
night with GPS to find Indiana, Pennsylvania where Jimmy Stewart was from).
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000071/

Kirby


On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:57 AM, David MacQuigg <macquigg at ece.arizona.edu>wrote:

> Kirby,
>
> This is very well written appeal, but in this mailing list, you may be
> preaching to the choir.  What I would like to see is a discussion of *why*
> there is not more teaching of programming in high school.  I can't seem to
> get an answer from the few high-school teachers and students I have asked. I
> suspect it has something to do with requiring all kids to have their own
> computers, not wanting the rich to have an advantage over the poor, etc.
>  I've thought about teaching high school myself, but the bureaucracy seems
> overwhelming.
>
> At 11:37 AM 12/6/2008 -0800, kirby urner wrote:
>
> >...
> >
> >As such a manager, I'm frustrated with the schooling around here, but
> rather than just whine and complain, I get access to classrooms and start
> showing off how it might really be done, were those of my breed allowed to
> interact with the kids (rarely happens, rules prevent -- even though I've
> been cleared at the state level to work with kids, with fingerprinting and
> everything, same as any union teacher).
> >
> >But among peers, fellow geeks, this is more just an excuse to tell some
> company war stories, share Python source, and enjoy the science fiction
> feeling of being in a culture that *we* had designed, rather than muggles,
> i.e. those who don't know what SQL means, even after enduring like four
> years of "mathematics" pre-college (not they're fault -- SQL doesn't make it
> past the relevance filters, gotta learn more about factoring polynomials,
> like you'll need on the job (snicker)).
> >
> >What if circus performers designed your gym class?  It wouldn't be like it
> is.  What if Pythonistas taught your junior how to program math objects,
> like vectors and polynomials.  Why, he'd grow up employable, ready to
> rumble, ready for work, maybe without even going to college right away (that
> could come later, on the company's dime maybe).  As a parent, you'd be
> pleased.  Finally, junior is excited about hard fun, programs just for the
> love of it (pretty freakish).
> >
> >...
> >
> >Kirby Urner
> >4Dsolutions.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
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From macquigg at ece.arizona.edu  Mon Dec  8 20:26:51 2008
From: macquigg at ece.arizona.edu (David MacQuigg)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 12:26:51 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812080822i33db5252v633c2e16a82ed9d6@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<f604188c0812061137w94c523t28a73f63a9e2964a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208120704.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>

At 08:22 AM 12/8/2008 -0800, kirby urner wrote:

>I think you're spot on about the "advantage over the poor" thing, as our stronger public schools have a parent base that will fund and support Linux labs,

I've also heard the argument that most kids will never be programmers ... missing the point that the important learning experience is a way of thinking, not the skill at a particular language.  You never know when a poor kid might become somebody important.

>...

>I guess my advice to the Obama team would be to avoid any "one size fits all" attempts to converge to some "national curriculum" like many do in Europe.  Each of the 50 states needs breathing room and none of them need Washington DC to be bossing them around like they're slaves of some central know-it-all.  We're a Federation, and this was never a monarchy.

I wonder if Obama has any ability in computer thinking.  He will need it if he is going to referee all the experts he has swarming around him.  I see some underlings in the Department of Homeland Security, frustrated after years of laissez-fair, have formed an Internet Security Alliance, and are pushing for major involvement by the Feds.  This could be good if Obama understands what they are saying, or bad if he can't distinguish between good advice and glib nonsense.  Let's hope Vint Cerf can keep him on the right track.


>On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:57 AM, David MacQuigg <<mailto:macquigg at ece.arizona.edu>macquigg at ece.arizona.edu> wrote:
>>Kirby,
>>
>>This is very well written appeal, but in this mailing list, you may be preaching to the choir.  What I would like to see is a discussion of *why* there is not more teaching of programming in high school.  I can't seem to get an answer from the few high-school teachers and students I have asked. I suspect it has something to do with requiring all kids to have their own computers, not wanting the rich to have an advantage over the poor, etc.  I've thought about teaching high school myself, but the bureaucracy seems overwhelming.
>>
>>At 11:37 AM 12/6/2008 -0800, kirby urner wrote:
>>
>>>...
>>>
>>>As such a manager, I'm frustrated with the schooling around here, but rather than just whine and complain, I get access to classrooms and start showing off how it might really be done, were those of my breed allowed to interact with the kids (rarely happens, rules prevent -- even though I've been cleared at the state level to work with kids, with fingerprinting and everything, same as any union teacher).
>>>
>>>But among peers, fellow geeks, this is more just an excuse to tell some company war stories, share Python source, and enjoy the science fiction feeling of being in a culture that *we* had designed, rather than muggles, i.e. those who don't know what SQL means, even after enduring like four years of "mathematics" pre-college (not they're fault -- SQL doesn't make it past the relevance filters, gotta learn more about factoring polynomials, like you'll need on the job (snicker)).
>>>
>>>What if circus performers designed your gym class?  It wouldn't be like it is.  What if Pythonistas taught your junior how to program math objects, like vectors and polynomials.  Why, he'd grow up employable, ready to rumble, ready for work, maybe without even going to college right away (that could come later, on the company's dime maybe).  As a parent, you'd be pleased.  Finally, junior is excited about hard fun, programs just for the love of it (pretty freakish).
>>>
>>>...
>>>
>>>Kirby Urner
>>>4Dsolutions.net



From mlibucha at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 20:38:39 2008
From: mlibucha at gmail.com (Mark Libucha)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:38:39 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <f604188c0812061137w94c523t28a73f63a9e2964a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5fabde300812081138l6b970c63ue8948312e5a773ae@mail.gmail.com>

David,

Here's my small nugget of experience:

My son goes to a prep school in southern CA, and when we met with his
adviser at the end of 8th grade last spring to plan out his high school
curriculum, I was floored to learn that there were no computer science
classes offered at all anymore. Here's the reasoning the adviser gave for
the dropping of the computer courses: The College Board is eliminating the
advanced level AP exam for computer science. (There are two exams, Computer
Science A and Computer Science AB. AB is being discontinued after 2009. Both
use Java, by the way.) And why is the higher level exam being eliminated?
Because not enough people take it.


And here's my philosophical take on the larger issue:

My personal opinion on computer language learning in high school is that
it's not going to happen until something else is eliminated from the
curriculum. And what needs to be eliminated is foreign languages. If that
rubs you the wrong way, just hear me out. Most students are forced to take
two or three years of a foreign language and come away with precious little
for their efforts. Very few can speak it intelligibly or comprehend even
simple conversations. And the bulk of what they do learn fades quickly from
memory. In my opinion, we still force students to do this despite the
failure rate in terms of actually learning the language because (1) we
believe students are learning about a foreign *culture* in their foreign
language classes, and (2) they're doing a type of logical calisthenics. But
learning culture through language is like learning geography through travel.
It results in a deeper understanding, yes, but it's way, way too
inefficient. Foreign cultures can and should be taught directly. As for the
logical work out, foreign languages have much too large a lexicon and are
way too laden with exceptions for that. Their study quickly devolves into
memorization hell.

Computer languages, on the other hand, are small, have limited exceptional
behavior, and are imminently useful. Two or three serious years of study in
high school would make most students "fluent" enough in a language to use it
in a job setting, not to mention the ability to pick up other computer
languages, and to have much better problem solving skills in general. Plus,
every compiler/interpreter is a native speaker eagerly waiting to correct
their syntax.

Required foreign language study made sense when learning "the classics" in
their native tongues constituted being educated. Those days are long gone.

So, to summarize, I believe the "plan of attack" needs to focus on opening
up a hole in the high school curriculum for computer languages to squeeze
into, and the foreign language study slot seems to be the right fit. At the
very least, it needs to have the same status as Latin (how sad is that?), an
option at some high schools for students who don't want to learn a modern
day language.

Mark

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:57 AM, David MacQuigg <macquigg at ece.arizona.edu>wrote:

> Kirby,
>
> This is very well written appeal, but in this mailing list, you may be
> preaching to the choir.  What I would like to see is a discussion of *why*
> there is not more teaching of programming in high school.  I can't seem to
> get an answer from the few high-school teachers and students I have asked. I
> suspect it has something to do with requiring all kids to have their own
> computers, not wanting the rich to have an advantage over the poor, etc.
>  I've thought about teaching high school myself, but the bureaucracy seems
> overwhelming.
>
> At 11:37 AM 12/6/2008 -0800, kirby urner wrote:
>
> >...
> >
> >As such a manager, I'm frustrated with the schooling around here, but
> rather than just whine and complain, I get access to classrooms and start
> showing off how it might really be done, were those of my breed allowed to
> interact with the kids (rarely happens, rules prevent -- even though I've
> been cleared at the state level to work with kids, with fingerprinting and
> everything, same as any union teacher).
> >
> >But among peers, fellow geeks, this is more just an excuse to tell some
> company war stories, share Python source, and enjoy the science fiction
> feeling of being in a culture that *we* had designed, rather than muggles,
> i.e. those who don't know what SQL means, even after enduring like four
> years of "mathematics" pre-college (not they're fault -- SQL doesn't make it
> past the relevance filters, gotta learn more about factoring polynomials,
> like you'll need on the job (snicker)).
> >
> >What if circus performers designed your gym class?  It wouldn't be like it
> is.  What if Pythonistas taught your junior how to program math objects,
> like vectors and polynomials.  Why, he'd grow up employable, ready to
> rumble, ready for work, maybe without even going to college right away (that
> could come later, on the company's dime maybe).  As a parent, you'd be
> pleased.  Finally, junior is excited about hard fun, programs just for the
> love of it (pretty freakish).
> >
> >...
> >
> >Kirby Urner
> >4Dsolutions.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 20:39:01 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:39:01 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208120704.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <f604188c0812061137w94c523t28a73f63a9e2964a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208120704.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812081139u2df320e6pec1c15d9acf426ca@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:26 AM, David MacQuigg
<macquigg at ece.arizona.edu> wrote:
> At 08:22 AM 12/8/2008 -0800, kirby urner wrote:
>
>>I think you're spot on about the "advantage over the poor" thing, as our stronger public schools have a parent base that will fund and support Linux labs,
>
> I've also heard the argument that most kids will never be programmers ... missing the point that the important learning experience is a way of thinking, not the skill at a particular language.  You never know when a poor kid might become somebody important.

Exactly right.  It was never about "becoming a pro programmer" for me,
any more than learning how to drive means you're planning on becoming
a chauffeur for a living, even if some of us do.  These choices come
later.  What's important at the secondary level is to keep doors open,
and that includes showing off geek subcultures as potentially
attractive, having a footprint for recruiting purposes.  We'll not
take a back seat to the pro mathematicians, who apparently obsess
about parabolas, think "integration by parts" is the bees knees (go
figure).

>>...
>
>>I guess my advice to the Obama team would be to avoid any "one size fits all" attempts to converge to some "national curriculum" like many do in Europe.  Each of the 50 states needs breathing room and none of them need Washington DC to be bossing them around like they're slaves of some central know-it-all.  We're a Federation, and this was never a monarchy.
>
> I wonder if Obama has any ability in computer thinking.  He will need it if he is going to referee all the experts he has swarming around him.  I see some underlings in the Department of Homeland Security, frustrated after years of laissez-fair, have formed an Internet Security Alliance, and are pushing for major involvement by the Feds.  This could be good if Obama understands what they are saying, or bad if he can't distinguish between good advice and glib nonsense.  Let's hope Vint Cerf can keep him on the right track.

As president, it's not required that he be a geek, no precedent for
that in history so far, not even Garfield (though he would have been,
given the chance I think), Ben Franklin closest?  But no Python back
then, Ada still doing her first virtual machine thing (Babbage engine
not in her lifetime), weaving the first vaporware (all she could do,
same as Leibniz).  The only real chess playing computer back then was
The Turk, who turned out to be a dwarf (OK, a spoiler, but we can't
hide these things forever now can we?).

Just about everyone and their younger brother wants a piece of the war
on terror, DARPA deluged with proposals, most of them sounding quite
similar.  Obama will get the tour of the eye candy facilities (as seen
on TV), the giant multi-screen anti-terrorism centers that look like
one would expect.  He'll get briefed on this that and the other about
cyber security threats.  But he won't have to feel he's all alone in
the decision-making.  He has friends in high places that've served in
several administrations and are not inexperienced in these issues,
feeling upbeat about his team.

Anyway, not my problem.  I'm thousands of miles away in Silicon
Forest, working with Coffee Shops Network e.g. places like Back Space
and livingroom.com, trying to organize around the concept of meetings
for business that keep that Portland flavored edginess.  Very niche.
Can't say I'm really tracking all that's going on politically, have no
time for the political blogs for example, don't know if I've ever
checked the ones everyone talks about (used to check Buzz Flash, is
that still going strong?), though I do catch up via 'Comedy Central'
on DirecTV sometimes, CBS News (morning show too sometimes, now that
my daughter is into it).

Kirby

PS:  here's another citation to Doug Engelbart, someone Alan Kay kept
going on about when Guido and I packed into that little meeting room
with Gunner, to have it out about the different languages and what to
do with them.  I got very little air time for my proposals, maybe 5
minutes in IDLE, mostly just had a very loud laptop fan, not running
Ubuntu, kind of awkward.  Loved how I got treated though, very kind
people, lots of Guinness, Indian food, great Cape Town hospitality, in
Kensington.  Fond memories.  http://programforthefuture.org/

From vceder at canterburyschool.org  Mon Dec  8 20:37:34 2008
From: vceder at canterburyschool.org (Vern Ceder)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:37:34 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>

David MacQuigg wrote:
> Kirby,
> 
> This is very well written appeal, but in this mailing list, you may
> be preaching to the choir.  What I would like to see is a discussion
> of *why* there is not more teaching of programming in high school.  I
> can't seem to get an answer from the few high-school teachers and
> students I have asked. I suspect it has something to do with
> requiring all kids to have their own computers, not wanting the rich
> to have an advantage over the poor, etc.  I've thought about teaching
> high school myself, but the bureaucracy seems overwhelming.

David,

I am the tech director and programming teacher at an independent school
in the poor, benighted Midwest that Kirby mentions ;) (Indiana, to be
exact). We teach Scratch programming and Lego robotics in the elementary
grades, Python and a little Alice in middle school, and Java, Python and
a little C in the high school. We don't require our kids to program at
home - they have plenty of chances to work on things at school. Now mind
you, most of our kids DO have machines at home, but only a tiny fraction
(the hardcore) bother to install Python or Java on them. And here in
Indiana, we have enough Linux computers in schools (some 150,000 as of
the start of this year) that even poor schools COULD have the access.

OTOH, as an independent school, we don't have layers of bureaucracy to
deal with, so we can pursue what we value. Teachers (and even
administrators) in the public sector don't have that ability. I've done
training sessions and day-long workshops for teachers in the state (and
in the Chicago suburbs), and here are the reasons I see that more
schools don't offer programming:

1) Lack of qualified staff. Sadly a graduate with a teaching certificate
(as required by the state) usually doesn't have anything like the
background to teach programming, let alone do the sorts of things that
Kirby has experimented with.

2) Numbers - at my school, 6-10 kids in AP Programming is considered a
good year. In the public schools around town, in a short-sighted drive
for efficiency, (but see item 1 above also) administration routinely
kills any elective that can't get 3 times that.

3) The whole "integration" trend in tech in education - 15 years ago it
was assumed that as technology became ubiquitous we wouldn't have to
teach it, any more than you need to know about electricity to turn on a
light. Of course, that analogy was bogus on both ends, but schools have
moved in that direction anyway, killing what little programming they did
have. Only now (and only very slowly) are they realizing that their
students are the poorer for it.

These factors (and others of course) combined with the many layers of
bureaucracy create a negative feedback loop that is next to impossible
for students, teachers or even parents to beat. In fact, I've talked to
state education officials that nearly despair of making any headway in
some of our schools.



-- 
This time for sure!
    -Bullwinkle J. Moose
-----------------------------
Vern Ceder, Director of Technology
Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804
vceder at canterburyschool.org; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137


From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 21:03:42 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:03:42 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812081203p47ee42e3t4968b62ba0fe0f2d@mail.gmail.com>

Hey, great analysis you guys!

Erratum:  said livingroom.com but meant livingroomtheater.com , picks
up where McMenamins leaves off in some ways, in taking it further with
the adult content.  I shot some Photostream on the way back from my
breakfast with Allegra (Bucky Fuller's daughter), basically like a
movie theater, but with Wifi and booze, if that makes any sense:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/2949088343/in/photostream/

Here's some analysis of my own, kicking off from what ya'll were just
yakking about:

<rant>

Re hegemony of ETS (near Princeton), high schools kow-towing to what
they think "colleges want" (because ETS says so):  I'm happy to report
that ETS does not have a monopoly on the testing idea, so that elite
academies who want to specify more computer language savvy, as a
barrier to entry (a filtering criterion) are free to do so.  If you
want to go to an "ETS school" then jump through their hoops, sure.
But life is short, and you want to be smarter than that.  In that
case, consider looking for better testing opportunities, get a sense
of what's really called for on the job (not like your grandfather's AP
Calc testing, that's for certain (know what a GPS device is, how to
use one?)).

Re having to take something out before adding more in, not sure, as
there's lots of padding to fill out 12 years, lots of boring
repetition, persuading kids it's all so tough and difficult.
Winterhaven wasn't like that, so my daughter and her cohort are
sailing through chemisty, have no problem with 1 mole = Avogadro's
number = how many carbon atoms in 12 grams of carbon 12 at sea level
(actually, I don't think sea level matters, not a chemistry major).
Horsepower whatever.  Same stuff they learned in 8th grade, a lot of
it, not waiting for ETS to approve.

So maybe "compression algorithms" could teach us something valuable?
I'm thinking all of 5th grade math could be compressed to one
Spongebob episode, properly scripted, whereas Bill Nye the Science guy
did most of science with little help from the big dummy textbook
crowed (BDTs we call 'em -- lots more on Math Forum, also called
"doorstops" (kids fall over backwards being so top heavy with
backpacks, pathetic and a waste of Oregon lumber)).

I like that we have 50 states.  Here in Oregon, we have no
compunctions about beating the pants off of California, when it comes
to providing a stronger curriculum, plus we trust ETS to keep the
other states retarded.  That way, Silicon Forest reaps a great crop,
and the rest of you slobs work in fast food (snicker).

OK, I'm being mean.  But really folks, what will it take?  I think the
fact that Python programming might involve lots of  Chinese
characters, is already getting viewed in that way in big corporations
I work with (so-called silos), will prove a kick in the pants to the
complacent.  Universities will see those high tuitions as the huge
deterrents they've become, what with native English speakers so
valuable overseas.  Get a free ticket, and a computer science degree
at the same time, from someplace in Asia.  Don't waste your time in
the US, where they still think "programming" is something you do with
a VCR (sneer).

</rant>

Looking foward!

Kirby

From mpaul213 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 00:30:33 2008
From: mpaul213 at gmail.com (michel paul)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:30:33 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
Message-ID: <40ea4eb00812081530j737fac67vd037a60d06fa21fb@mail.gmail.com>

David:

> >What I would like to see is a discussion of *why* there is not more
> teaching of programming in high school.


Especially given that 'integrating technology into the curriculum' is given
such lip service.

Most people equate technology with tool use.  They seldom equate it with
language and a set of ways to articulate ideas.  Seems to me that's where
education should especially be focused.

I think part of the problem in the past has been the misunderstanding about
tech jobs getting outsourced.  I've heard people say there's no point in
becoming a programmer, because all the jobs are going overseas.  It's really
kind of silly.


> >I've also heard the argument that most kids will never be programmers


Right.  That's an argument I keep running into.  I say, well, most kids
won't become historians either, but they still study history.

Vern:
>
>
> 3) The whole "integration" trend in tech in education - 15 years ago it
> was assumed that as technology became ubiquitous we wouldn't have to
> teach it, any more than you need to know about electricity to turn on a
> light. Of course, that analogy was bogus on both ends, but schools have
> moved in that direction anyway, killing what little programming they did
> have. Only now (and only very slowly) are they realizing that their
> students are the poorer for it.


This is a great point.   It hits the nail right on the head for a lot of
frustrating discussions I've had regarding putting programming into the math
curriculum.

- Michel
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From macquigg at ece.arizona.edu  Tue Dec  9 02:10:11 2008
From: macquigg at ece.arizona.edu (David MacQuigg)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 18:10:11 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <40ea4eb00812081530j737fac67vd037a60d06fa21fb@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
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At 03:30 PM 12/8/2008 -0800, michel paul wrote:

>David:
>>>What I would like to see is a discussion of *why* there is not more teaching of programming in high school.
>
>I think part of the problem in the past has been the misunderstanding about tech jobs getting outsourced.  I've heard people say there's no point in becoming a programmer, because all the jobs are going overseas.  It's really kind of silly.

Stated that way, it does seem circular.  I've heard it stated more convincingly by an EE prof to a class of undergrads.  "If you go into engineering, you will be facing layoffs."  Imagine the effect of that expectation on smart students who see their buddies going into law or medicine, and getting more pay and more respect than engineers.  It's no wonder there are almost no US students in our graduate classes.  I've thought about what I would have said to those students.  It would be more like "If money is your major motivation, find another profession.  If technology is in your blood, stay with it.  Learn everything you can.  The money will come out OK."

We need a shocker like Sputnik.  Maybe this economic crisis will do it.  It's not as directly related to technical education as was Sputnik, and it may be even tougher to spend money on education now than it was in 1957, but consider the alternative.  What will we have to offer our trading partners.  Not manufacturing.  Not intellectual work.  Real estate?

I have high hopes we will come to our senses.  A year ago, I had almost everything in commodities.  Now I am switching back to stocks.  I just hope I can ride it out.



From guido at python.org  Tue Dec  9 03:52:30 2008
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:52:30 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208174955.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208174955.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20812081852s233b3641j121821c92e9490e9@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:10 PM, David MacQuigg <macquigg at ece.arizona.edu> wrote:
> At 03:30 PM 12/8/2008 -0800, michel paul wrote:
>
>>David:
>>>>What I would like to see is a discussion of *why* there is not more teaching of programming in high school.
>>
>>I think part of the problem in the past has been the misunderstanding about tech jobs getting outsourced.  I've heard people say there's no point in becoming a programmer, because all the jobs are going overseas.  It's really kind of silly.
>
> Stated that way, it does seem circular.  I've heard it stated more convincingly by an EE prof to a class of undergrads.  "If you go into engineering, you will be facing layoffs."  Imagine the effect of that expectation on smart students who see their buddies going into law or medicine, and getting more pay and more respect than engineers.  It's no wonder there are almost no US students in our graduate classes.  I've thought about what I would have said to those students.  It would be more like "If money is your major motivation, find another profession.  If technology is in your blood, stay with it.  Learn everything you can.  The money will come out OK."

I read this as: Engineering is something where mediocrity doesn't pay.
Doctors and lawyers are like cobblers, their output is limited by the
number of hours they can work, so there is room for good solid workers
who aren't particularly innovative. Engineering at its best is not
like that at all. It's a field whose main *point* is to make manual
labor redundant. Good engineers do their work because it's their
passion. The rest... Well they can always try to earn a living
cranking out Java code. ;-)

> We need a shocker like Sputnik.

There won't be one. History doesn't repeat itself that literally. Each
crisis is fundamentally different, because each time we've learned
from the last one.

> Maybe this economic crisis will do it.  It's not as directly related to technical education as was Sputnik, and it may be even tougher to spend money on education now than it was in 1957, but consider the alternative.  What will we have to offer our trading partners.  Not manufacturing.  Not intellectual work.  Real estate?

I disagree that we have no intellectual work to offer. Most outsourced
work I have witnessed first-hand is poorly done. Yes, if your primary
skill is J2EE, you should be afraid, very afraid. (Or Perl, if the geo
data shown by Google trends is any indication. :-) OTOH if you have a
passion for inventing great engineering solutions, the USA is still
the place to be.

I think it's fine that engineering isn't the job creation engine that
people once thought it might be. It's a place where the best and
brightest shine. In the dot-com times everyone dropped out of whatever
they were doing and suddenly became a web designer. Of course, those
were most eagerly hired by dot-bombs, and the first to lose their
jobs.

> I have high hopes we will come to our senses.  A year ago, I had almost everything in commodities.  Now I am switching back to stocks.  I just hope I can ride it out.

I don't get the connection. But maybe this is just your way of hinting
that you are in it for the money.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From ajudkis at verizon.net  Tue Dec  9 04:47:28 2008
From: ajudkis at verizon.net (Andy Judkis)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:47:28 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <mailman.27884.1228791152.3486.edu-sig@python.org>
References: <mailman.27884.1228791152.3486.edu-sig@python.org>
Message-ID: <493DEA50.9020504@verizon.net>

Well, I'm a high school teacher, and today we started to learn about 
programming in my 10th grade "Principles of Computer Technology" class.  
I tell them that we do it because it's a good intellectual skill to 
develop, it builds their problem solving and critical thinking 
abilities, it's fun, and they might be able to use it someday.  We start 
off with RUR-PLE, which I've been using with great success for several 
years now.

I don't try to turn them into programmers --  I just try to diminish 
their utter clueless about how programming works, and give them a sense 
of the possibilities.  I would like the handful who might want to pursue 
it to have a good first exposure to it, of course.   I'm always hoping 
that someone will really take to it, and come back and show me cool 
things that they've done on their own, but so far (four years now, about 
300 kids) it hasn't happened once.

I really do worry about the world that these kids are going into, and 
what kinds of opportunities they're going to have.  As Guido implies, 
the really sharp ones will thrive, but what about the rest of them/us?  
My best advice to them is to stay out of debt, and not expect to be as 
wealthy as their parents.  I hope that they can find something that they 
care about to do for a living, and that that will be enough.  
Demographics, deficits, and environmental concerns are just going to 
make their lives tougher.  Their real problems are not going to be 
solved because they learned Python instead of Java.

- Andy

From macquigg at ece.arizona.edu  Tue Dec  9 17:44:07 2008
From: macquigg at ece.arizona.edu (David MacQuigg)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 09:44:07 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20812081852s233b3641j121821c92e9490e9@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208174955.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208174955.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208215420.089d6120@mail.ece.arizona.edu>

At 06:52 PM 12/8/2008 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:10 PM, David MacQuigg <macquigg at ece.arizona.edu> wrote:
>> At 03:30 PM 12/8/2008 -0800, michel paul wrote:
>>
>>>I think part of the problem in the past has been the misunderstanding about tech jobs getting outsourced.  I've heard people say there's no point in becoming a programmer, because all the jobs are going overseas.  It's really kind of silly.
>>
>> Stated that way, it does seem circular.  I've heard it stated more convincingly by an EE prof to a class of undergrads.  "If you go into engineering, you will be facing layoffs."  Imagine the effect of that expectation on smart students who see their buddies going into law or medicine, and getting more pay and more respect than engineers.  It's no wonder there are almost no US students in our graduate classes.  I've thought about what I would have said to those students.  It would be more like "If money is your major motivation, find another profession.  If technology is in your blood, stay with it.  Learn everything you can.  The money will come out OK."
>
>I read this as: Engineering is something where mediocrity doesn't pay.
>Doctors and lawyers are like cobblers, their output is limited by the
>number of hours they can work, so there is room for good solid workers
>who aren't particularly innovative. Engineering at its best is not
>like that at all. It's a field whose main *point* is to make manual
>labor redundant. Good engineers do their work because it's their
>passion. The rest... Well they can always try to earn a living
>cranking out Java code. ;-)

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that engineering is a field where only the brightest should feel comfortable.  There is plenty of need for good solid workers, and I would like to see our schools and our economy support that.  If we outsource the grunt work, and hope to keep just the top geniuses employed, eventually we lose the top also.  I remember in the 80's thinking the Japanese could never catch up with us in circuit design.  They just didn't have the creative spark.  It wasn't in their culture.

>> We need a shocker like Sputnik.
>
>There won't be one. History doesn't repeat itself that literally. Each
>crisis is fundamentally different, because each time we've learned
>from the last one.

Yet we seem to repeat one bubble after another, and all that changes is the specific investment, stocks one time, real estate the next, then back to stocks again, with a slightly different story, so what we learned from the last one doesn't apply.  I guess we did learn something from the tulip bubble.  We'll never fall for that one again!  Orchids, maybe, but never tulips! :>)

Maybe instead of Sputnik, it will be a cyber attack.  I know some smart folks who are taking that threat seriously.  I find it hard to believe.  We do need a wake-up call, but one that doesn't cause any real damage.

>> Maybe this economic crisis will do it.  It's not as directly related to technical education as was Sputnik, and it may be even tougher to spend money on education now than it was in 1957, but consider the alternative.  What will we have to offer our trading partners.  Not manufacturing.  Not intellectual work.  Real estate?
>
>I disagree that we have no intellectual work to offer. Most outsourced
>work I have witnessed first-hand is poorly done. Yes, if your primary
>skill is J2EE, you should be afraid, very afraid. (Or Perl, if the geo
>data shown by Google trends is any indication. :-) OTOH if you have a
>passion for inventing great engineering solutions, the USA is still
>the place to be.

unless your passion is consumer electronics.  I wonder how long it will be before India is the place to be in Computer Science.

>I think it's fine that engineering isn't the job creation engine that
>people once thought it might be. It's a place where the best and
>brightest shine. In the dot-com times everyone dropped out of whatever
>they were doing and suddenly became a web designer. Of course, those
>were most eagerly hired by dot-bombs, and the first to lose their
>jobs.

The root cause here was bubble think, not too many people wanting to work in technology.

What ever happened to the original enthusiasm with Computer Programming for Everyone?  If everyone with a high school diploma knew how to write a simple program, not only would we be more productive, but we would understand the world better.  Instead of loose talk and isolated numbers, the news would show us charts.  The general public, not just experts, would have seen the very obvious bubble growing in the housing market, and could see now where we are on the down side.  What if the average real estate agent could show me the price trends on property similar to what I am looking at.  Instead, I have to dig out the data myself, and plot it in Excel.  Then when I show her the result, she still doesn't see the significance.  

What if the general public (and our candidates) clearly understood the difference between religious belief and scientific fact.  Well, maybe that's too much to expect from a course in programming, but it would be a step in the right direction. (Some would say the wrong direction.  Maybe that is one more reason to add to our list.)

>> I have high hopes we will come to our senses.  A year ago, I had almost everything in commodities.  Now I am switching back to stocks.  I just hope I can ride it out.
>
>I don't get the connection. But maybe this is just your way of hinting
>that you are in it for the money.

Sorry for being obscure.  I was trying to emphasize that I am more optimistic now than I was a year ago.  Commodities were a hedge against the economic disaster I thought was coming.  The real estate collapse may have actually saved us from that disaster.  Stocks are faith in the future.

I trade to make money (or avoid losing it).  I do engineering because I love the work, even when I don't get paid for it.

-- David MacQuigg (http://purl.net/macquigg)




From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 18:03:17 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:03:17 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208215420.089d6120@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208174955.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208215420.089d6120@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812090903h6c08cfb6s875c10309a7a1d9c@mail.gmail.com>

Re outsourcing, here I am in the capital of open source (Portland, per
Christian Science Monitor that time -- San Jose uncomfortable with
that, stealing back OSCON -- OK, OK, their turn, we agree), and yet
when push comes to shove, there's a rather tiny geek culture.

I find myself advising Symmetric to check with Aiste's POV in Vilnius,
as one of the more qualified shops, as we start scraping the bottom of
our barrel.  Jason got snatched away by idealist.org, whereas some
others don't have much experience, e.g. insist on working solo.

So I completely empathize with Intel, needing engineers from
elsewhere.  South Africa a good source.

It's not that I think Oregonians are stupid, just they've been sold a
bill of goods by the ETS army, made to jump through irrelevant hoops
to the point of ridiculousness, leaving good jobs going begging.

That's why we have Saturday Academy, to track at least a few talented
kids into a relevant curriculum for a change, no more of this pablum.
Not every city is so lucky.  Not every city has our Silicon Forest
(which extends northward to embrace Seattle, the Space Needle one of
our branding tools).

Anyway, looking forward to Chicago.  I've been thinking how corporate
trainers such as myself might inject a note of hilarity in adult
settings, even while staying on task with the Python.  Turns out
that's easy:  Flying Circus to the rescue.  We do little skits.
Here's a sample in my blog:
http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2008/12/car-czar.html

Kirby

From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com  Wed Dec 10 00:52:23 2008
From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 18:52:23 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208215420.089d6120@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208174955.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>	<493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208174955.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208215420.089d6120@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <493F04B7.6020408@kurtz-fernhout.com>

David MacQuigg wrote:
 > What ever happened to the original enthusiasm with Computer Programming
 > for Everyone?  If everyone with a high school diploma knew how to write a
 > simple program, not only would we be more productive, but we would
 > understand the world better.  Instead of loose talk and isolated numbers,
 > the news would show us charts.  The general public, not just experts,
 > would have seen the very obvious bubble growing in the housing market,
 > and could see now where we are on the down side.  What if the average
 > real estate agent could show me the price trends on property similar to
 > what I am looking at.  Instead, I have to dig out the data myself, and
 > plot it in Excel.  Then when I show her the result, she still doesn't see
 > the significance.

Many years ago someone said (probably Kirby, and probably on this list) 
essentially that while "computing" is taught in school as if it were a 
subset of schoolish "math", it's really more true that schoolish "math" is a 
subset of "computing". Obviously, real knock-your-socks-off math subsumes 
*everything*, as in physics is a subset of math in a way, but that is not 
the case either in most K-12 schools. And even then, the lines between 
computing and math are starting to blur, as even modern physicists now spend 
a lot of time with their computer simulations that their base equations. So, 
I feel from a practical point of view, computing should be introduced as 
early as possible in education (perhaps after, say age seven and kids get 
the real world at an intuitive level), and learning to do schoolish math 
(including algebra, trigonometry, logical proofs of correctness, and so on) 
should flow from that. And, for example, you can then link things like 
physics, chemistry, and biology (and even English and history) into a 
computer base curriculum using simulation and data acquisition.

On the larger issue:

David MacQuigg also wrote:
> At 06:52 PM 12/8/2008 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:10 PM, David MacQuigg
>> <macquigg at ece.arizona.edu> wrote:
>>> At 03:30 PM 12/8/2008 -0800, michel paul wrote:
>>>> I think part of the problem in the past has been the
>>>> misunderstanding about tech jobs getting outsourced.  I've heard
>>>> people say there's no point in becoming a programmer, because all
>>>> the jobs are going overseas.  It's really kind of silly.
 >>>
>>> Stated that way, it does seem circular.  I've heard it stated more
>>> convincingly by an EE prof to a class of undergrads.  "If you go into
>>> engineering, you will be facing layoffs."  Imagine the effect of that
>>> expectation on smart students who see their buddies going into law or
>>> medicine, and getting more pay and more respect than engineers.  It's
>>> no wonder there are almost no US students in our graduate classes.
>>> I've thought about what I would have said to those students.  It
>>> would be more like "If money is your major motivation, find another
>>> profession.  If technology is in your blood, stay with it.  Learn
>>> everything you can.  The money will come out OK."
 >>
>> I read this as: Engineering is something where mediocrity doesn't pay. 
>> Doctors and lawyers are like cobblers, their output is limited by the 
>> number of hours they can work, so there is room for good solid workers 
>> who aren't particularly innovative. Engineering at its best is not like
>> that at all. It's a field whose main *point* is to make manual labor
>> redundant. Good engineers do their work because it's their passion. The
>> rest... Well they can always try to earn a living cranking out Java
>> code. ;-)
> 
> I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that engineering is a field where
> only the brightest should feel comfortable.  There is plenty of need for
> good solid workers, and I would like to see our schools and our economy
> support that.  If we outsource the grunt work, and hope to keep just the
> top geniuses employed, eventually we lose the top also.  I remember in
> the 80's thinking the Japanese could never catch up with us in circuit
> design.  They just didn't have the creative spark.  It wasn't in their
> culture.

On this general topic of the cultural context of engineering education,
here a few ideas about historical trends, and one speculation based on 
projecting things forward a couple decades from what Guido said elsewhere.

After WWII, the USA was the only significant manufacturing power. Europe and 
much of Aisa were either in rubble, social turmoil, or both. The Southern 
hemisphere still had little infrastructure too. So, it could be expected 
that the manufacturing base in the USA would grow as it made stuff for the 
world, and like China today, this would be a good position to be in, having 
the world depending on it for stuff. But over the decades, this unusual 
situation has shifted, and while the USA still sells a lot of manufactured 
goods, as the world has rebuilt in some places and developed industrially in 
others, a more normal situation is reestablishing itself. Culturally, it is 
true that different places have different strengths and weaknesses, like 
Japan may struggle with too much conformity. On the other hand, the rest of 
the world now seems to be more quickly getting the cooperative nature of 
developing "free and open source" software, content, and physical design.

Also, before, during, and after WWII, the USA received for various reasons a 
  significant influx of educated immigrants, like Einstein and van Braun, 
and many others (including those the USA scooped up from the ruins of 
post-WWII Germany). These are the people who helped give the USA atomic 
energy (and weapons) and who helped put a person on the moon, among many 
other innovations, flowing out of the grasp these people had of math and 
practical engineering. To an extent, the USA has been riding this 
intellectual capital instead of developing a culture that can as easily 
create educated people as the playful tradition of Germany up until the 
early 1930s. Over the last few decades, as these people have aged and died, 
the USA has lost some of its edge as well. Obviously, the USA can produce 
some educated people, but, as with manufacturing, the relative dominance 
again has been lost.

Also, for reasons of basic capitalism, formerly USA-based firms have seen it 
profitable in the short term to exploit a highly valued dollar to do 
operations oversee, as well as exploiting the relative greater social 
inequality in those countries (as one H1B holder from India put it to me, 
back in India he could afford a lot of servants on what he was earning and 
saving). Also, US citizens as contractors usually commanded a multiple of 
the prevailing wage for short term contracts, whereas H1Bs only need be paid 
the "prevailing wage" (what is not said is, "of an employee, not a 
contractor".) So, all those factors have made it more profitable for US 
firms to train foreign nationals in technology, again eroding any edge the 
USA had resulting from the above two factors.

Where does that leave future students? As the US dollar falls (the current 
rise is only short term as people sell dollar-denominated assets and hold 
the cash, unsure how to invest), this fall will make outsourcing less 
profitable, so US manufacturing will get some good news. Similarly, as other 
countries address internal inequities of their own rich-poor divides, it 
will also get harder to outsource or use H1Bs profitably (no more hiring a 
chauffeur, maid, and a cook on a programmer's salary, so why bother working 
for US Americans?). So, in the long term, that is all good news for US 
students interested in manufacturing. It is my hope that rather than the US 
standard of living significantly falling, that it will just stay static as 
the rest of the world catches up, with better technology in the USA 
offsetting other financial losses (like, your job pays less, but playing 
games at home is more fun and educational and more fulfilling socially, like 
the Wii is a first example of).

But there are two other counter-trends to the good news which are more serious.

One is the collapse of the value of the PhD in the USA, as documented by Dr. 
David Goodstein, Vice Provost of Caltech. His essential point is that the 
educational system mines and sort and polishes students looking for a few 
PhD-quality students, while discarding the rest. He says this emphasis needs 
to change for two reasons. One is that the discarded students are left 
mostly scientifically and technically illiterate which is wasteful and a 
threat to a democracy dependent on technology. The other reason is that 
academeia grew exponentially until the 1970s in the USA, creating plenty of 
jobs for people with PhDs, but that era is over and now most PhDs being 
created are surplus. When I look at the academic departments I have been 
part of in the past, and see most of the same professors there who were 
there in the 1980s and 1990s, this rings all to true. There are just not 
many new slots compared to the number of science PhDs produce. Industrial 
R&D is small, to begin with. So, we see more and more call for PhDs in K-12 
or other situations (but that is not the expectation these people had, so 
they are often unhappy). Medicine and Law, on the other hand, by tightly 
controlling the number of related schools producing such professionals, and 
continually lobbying for increased restrictions on who can practice has 
managed to create an artificial scarcity of doctors and lawyers, which keeps 
their salaries up. There were many things common in the past, like passing 
the bar exam without going to law school, or pharmacists prescribing 
medicines, or midwives delivering babies at home, which are pretty much 
illegal now. But anyone can practice computer programming. I can take my car 
to a good mechanic without much of an appointment, but I may need to wait 
weeks or months to see a competent doctor -- because of this artificial 
scarcity. This isn't an argument for licensing programmers, I'm just 
pointing to the historical difference. By the way, there are at least two 
big tiers of doctors -- family practice and specialist, and while in my 
opinion family practice sounds harder, it is the specialists who get the 
extra training and get the big bucks, so there is some room there for the 
more ambitious. In any case, when you couple the collapse of the PhD pyramid 
scheme system in a sense, along with outsourcing and H1Bs, then it is no 
wonder people who thirty years ago would have pursued advanced study in 
science or engineering are now tempted by law or medicine. The law is a lot 
like programming (based on precedent, or subroutine call :-) and medicine 
these days is more and more science and technology driven. Still, even if we 
were to quadruple the numbers of doctors produced per year (please, no more 
lawyers :-), at 100,000 (up from 25000 per year) that would not at all 
accommodate the millions of kids a year interested in science and 
engineering.  And of course, many doctors are unhappy because of insurance 
reimbursement and other societal issues. And nurses and aids are already in 
short supply as the jobs are very stressful with little control or 
recognition. So, in short, there is no where for most of these kids to go to 
apply their skills in a profitable and pleasant way, at least, not on terms 
anywhere like those people were getting thirty years ago.

The other is an even more serious issue that that. It was predicted in the 
1960s, and echoes Guido's point of "Engineering at its best is not
like that at all. It's a field whose main *point* is to make manual
labor redundant." To amplify on Guido's point, see:
   "The Triple Revolution":
   http://www.educationanddemocracy.org/FSCfiles/C_CC2a_TripleRevolution.htm
"The fundamental problem posed by the cybernation revolution in the U.S. is 
that it invalidates the general mechanism so far employed to undergird 
people?s rights as consumers. Up to this time economic resources have been 
distributed on the basis of contributions to production, with machines and 
men competing for employment on somewhat equal terms. In the developing 
cybernated system, potentially unlimited output can be achieved by systems 
of machines which will require little cooperation from human beings. As 
machines take over production from men, they absorb an increasing proportion 
of resources while the men who are displaced become dependent on minimal and 
unrelated government measures?unemployment insurance, social security, 
welfare payments. These measures are less and less able to disguise a 
historic paradox: That a substantial proportion of the population is 
subsisting on minimal incomes, often below the poverty line, at a time when 
sufficient productive potential is available to supply the needs of everyone 
in the U.S. ... The industrial system was designed to produce an 
ever-increasing quantity of goods as efficiently as possible, and it was 
assumed that the distribution of the power to purchase these goods would 
occur almost automatically. The continuance of the income-through-jobs link 
as the only major mechanism for distributing effective demand -- for 
granting the right to consume -- now acts as the main brake on the almost 
unlimited capacity of a cybernated productive system."

If you want a more modern take on this, see Marshall Brain's sci-fi:
   "Manna"
   http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
or his non-fiction:
   "Robotic Nation"
   http://www.marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

Or you could see the writing of any of a number of other technologists, like 
Ray Kurzweil:
   "The Law of Accelerating Returns"
    http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

My own take on this:
   "Post-Scarcity Princeton"
   http://www.pdfernhout.net/post-scarcity-princeton.html
The most important point there is: "Capitalism is often it seems all about 
cost cutting. Why do people have such a hard time thinking about what 
happens as costs approach zero, even for improvements in quality? Or why do 
economists have a hard time understanding that many conventional economic 
equations may produce infinities as costs trend towards zero? "

But going back to Marshall Brain's non-fiction, he writes in Robotic Nation: 
"I don't think anyone in 1900 could imagine the B-52 happening in 54 years. 
Over the next 55 years, the same thing will happen to us with robots. In the 
process, the entire employment landscape in America will change. Here is why 
that will happen. ... The arrival of humanoid robots should be a cause for 
celebration. With the robots doing most of the work, it should be possible 
for everyone to go on perpetual vacation. Instead, robots will displace 
millions of employees, leaving them unable to find work and therefore 
destitute. I believe that it is time to start rethinking our economy and 
understanding how we will allow people to live their lives in a robotic 
nation. ..."

Ultimately, money on education now is not going to make much of a difference 
in twenty or thirty years as far as the "competitiveness" that schools and 
business people are often talking about, see:
  "IBM CEO Sam Palmisano's speech at the Council of Foreign Relations on "A
Smarter Planet""
  http://www.cfr.org/publication/17696
if, as predicted, following Moore's law and exponential growth, you can buy 
a computer that can run a human-level AI for about $1000 in 2038 or sooner.
   "When will computer hardware match the human brain?"
   http://www.transhumanist.com/volume1/moravec.htm

I developed this theme here:
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/72330a22bcae8928?hl=en
"""
The handwriting is on the wall, not just for compulsory schools, but for 
other large parts of our social structure they link up with. It's not 
necessarily a bad message either, if we accept it and try our hardest to 
make the best of it. It's not like one day the robots and AIs will suddenly 
take over (I hope). It is more like bit by bit things will continue to 
change and these things will show up in our lives, and our social network 
will shape them based on our priorities. For example, luxury cars have moved 
from anti-lock brakes, then to GPS course routing, then to Electronic 
Stability Control, and now the big thing is adaptive cruise control using 
radar to maintain a fixed distance from the next car, and also automatic 
parallel parking. Soon more safety features will be common to detect 
swerving lane changes, to drive by radar in fog, to brake fast and swerve to 
avoid deer, and so on, until before we know it, we decide in about ten or 
twenty years that it's safer to let the car drive itself than give the keys 
to our teenagers:
   "GM: Self Driving cars on the road in 10 years" 
http://senseofevents.blogspot.com/2008/01/gm-self-driving-cars-on-road-in-10.html
"""

I also list there how a various occupations are already being automated and 
are likely to disappear in the next couple of decades, like: Check out 
clerk, Cab driver, Heart Surgeon, Airline pilot, Nurse, Entertainer, 
Athlete, Migrant agricultural laborer, Librarian, Artist, Designer, and 
Miner. I could probably list more, but that seems long enough to make the 
point. What will a student in kindergarten today be expected to do for a 
profession in twenty years if they need to compete with robots and other 
automation to make a living? This isn't like in the 1920s when "buggy whip" 
manufacturers were closing down, or like in the 1950s when the profession of 
"picture tinters" were going away. Back then, there were lots of jobs to go 
to. Right now, between a previous bailout to the car companies to shift to 
alternative vehicles, and the current bailout proposal, the US Congress will 
be handing over about US$50 billion to automotive companies so they will 
*only* cut about one third of their jobs (assuming GM's stated plans are 
similar to the other's unstated ones). Again, the US is giving out tens of 
billions of dollars so only one-third the total jobs will be cut, instead of 
all of them. Frankly, those jobs are not coming back anytime soon. While it 
is true that millions of green jobs can be created, many, many millions, and 
should IMHO, even that will not match the job losses from exponentially 
developing automation. Just as one example, this somewhat charitably funded 
think-tank is already making great progress on robots that can work around 
humans:
   http://www.willowgarage.com/
While plumbers may hold on the longest, by 2040, we'll probably see even 
household robot plumbers. Of course, we may not need them if we were to 
redesign plumbing to be easier to maintain -- but even then, the job goes 
away. In a similar way, if you look at the video of Amory Lovins' plan to 
revitalized the US automotive industry here, he outlines snap-together car 
bodies. So, those jobs are going, going, gone. And except for the "Triple 
Revolution" issues related to the politics of distributing wealth, we are 
all better for those jobs being gone, because there are plenty of things 
people prefer to do, whether study math or nature or raise children or play 
music or swim and so on, including building software and robots, just for 
the fun of it.

Anyway, that's the elephant in the living room, when you extrapolate from 
Guido's observation. :-)

So why should kids learn programming and advanced computer use?
* Fun.
* A gateway to more fun in science and engineering.
* A way to make sure the robots are friendly (or at least, enough of the 
dumber ones are reasonably obedient).
* A way to have confidence in an ability to interact and control the future 
world they will live in (ala, Computer Programming for Everybody).

All the best to everyone here. I will now go back to lurking. :-)

--Paul Fernhout

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 01:34:15 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:34:15 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <493F04B7.6020408@kurtz-fernhout.com>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208174955.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208215420.089d6120@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<493F04B7.6020408@kurtz-fernhout.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812091634h273e4656nef9e52a51b743240@mail.gmail.com>

I like "schoolish math", will plan to recycle that.

As for the rest of it, trademark Paul F. in being so verbose, will
leave it to other analysts to summarize it for me this time.  Good
seein' ya Paul.

For those wishing to lurk on my "inner doings" (acting locally in
Portland), I refer you to this URL:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/portland/2008-December/000524.html

(my public regrets to a big party tonight, Python and other groups,
keeping Portland spirit alive...)

Kirby

From macquigg at ece.arizona.edu  Wed Dec 10 16:35:53 2008
From: macquigg at ece.arizona.edu (David MacQuigg)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:35:53 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20081210063858.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>

At 02:37 PM 12/8/2008 -0500, Vern Ceder wrote:

>... here are the reasons I see that more
>schools don't offer programming:
>
>1) Lack of qualified staff. Sadly a graduate with a teaching certificate
>(as required by the state) usually doesn't have anything like the
>background to teach programming, let alone do the sorts of things that
>Kirby has experimented with.

What we need then, is not programming teachers, but teachers who are enthusiastic about technology, and use programming as a tool.  I would think any teacher of math or science would have no difficulty using Python and integrating it into their teaching.  Don't teach it as a separate subject, but introduce each new statement as it is needed.  For-loops, as an example, could be introduced as a tool to plot functions.  The, when the students are comfortable with that (and if there is time), show them a whole new and more general way of looking at for-loops (for item in collection).

I remember taking a class in typing.  There was a lot of stuff on proper etiquette and formatting of business letters, and emphasis on speed and accuracy, but it was one of the most valuable classes I ever took.  Do they still have something like that, maybe a business skills class?

Python has a special role here, in that it doesn't require a big, focused effort, as would Java.

>2) Numbers - at my school, 6-10 kids in AP Programming is considered a
>good year. In the public schools around town, in a short-sighted drive
>for efficiency, (but see item 1 above also) administration routinely
>kills any elective that can't get 3 times that.
>
>3) The whole "integration" trend in tech in education - 15 years ago it
>was assumed that as technology became ubiquitous we wouldn't have to
>teach it, any more than you need to know about electricity to turn on a
>light. Of course, that analogy was bogus on both ends, but schools have
>moved in that direction anyway, killing what little programming they did
>have. Only now (and only very slowly) are they realizing that their
>students are the poorer for it.

This fits with Paul's theme that we don't need programmers because it will all be done for us, or Guido's that only the best students should study programming.  I was once asked by a shop teacher why I am still doing programming.  Aren't all the programs already written?

We need lots of examples where programming is useful to non-programmers.  I already mentioned the real estate agent needing to digest some data from the property appraisers office.  For the shop teacher: How about a homeowner wanting to lay tiles, avoid wastage, and slivers that look bad along the edge.  If you know Python, it is quicker to write a little program than find one, purchase and install it, read the manual, struggle with a bunch of stuff you don't really need, and maybe not get what you want in the end.  I can think of lots of examples in engineering, but they are not ordinary problems that would seem relevant to high school students.  What we need is a collection of relevant problems, easily solved with a quickie program.

>These factors (and others of course) combined with the many layers of
>bureaucracy create a negative feedback loop that is next to impossible
>for students, teachers or even parents to beat. In fact, I've talked to
>state education officials that nearly despair of making any headway in
>some of our schools.

I would think the Federal government could play a positive role in encouraging modernization of our curricula.  Are there any proposals for the new administration?  I'm thinking of an effort similar to what the Internet Security Alliance is now making in the area of infrastructure for a more secure computing environment.  There is a whole new enthusiasm replacing the despair of the last few years.



From macquigg at ece.arizona.edu  Wed Dec 10 17:08:42 2008
From: macquigg at ece.arizona.edu (David MacQuigg)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:08:42 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20081210085130.02ad4630@plus.pop.mail.yahoo.com>


>We need lots of examples where programming is useful to non-programmers.  I already mentioned the real estate agent needing to digest some data from the property appraisers office.  For the shop teacher: How about a homeowner wanting to lay tiles, avoid wastage, and slivers that look bad along the edge.  If you know Python, it is quicker to write a little program than find one, purchase and install it, read the manual, struggle with a bunch of stuff you don't really need, and maybe not get what you want in the end.  I can think of lots of examples in engineering, but they are not ordinary problems that would seem relevant to high school students.  What we need is a collection of relevant problems, easily solved with a quickie program.

Here is another suggestion:  How about a program to predict stock prices?  We'll need maybe 1000 traders, each responding to a dozen random external events.  That will gives us a simple random walk around the mean.  Now let's make it more interesting.  Give each trader a "herding tendency" making it follow more closely what its nearest neighbors are doing.  Turn up the "herding coefficient" and watch how it makes the market more erratic, ultimately turning random walk into boom and bust.



From vceder at canterburyschool.org  Wed Dec 10 17:41:05 2008
From: vceder at canterburyschool.org (Vern Ceder)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:41:05 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081210085130.02ad4630@plus.pop.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081210085130.02ad4630@plus.pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <493FF121.80906@canterburyschool.org>



David MacQuigg wrote:
> Here is another suggestion:  How about a program to predict stock
> prices?  We'll need maybe 1000 traders, each responding to a dozen
> random external events.  That will gives us a simple random walk
> around the mean.  Now let's make it more interesting.  Give each
> trader a "herding tendency" making it follow more closely what its
> nearest neighbors are doing.  Turn up the "herding coefficient" and
> watch how it makes the market more erratic, ultimately turning random
> walk into boom and bust.

I love this idea... It would take either a certain skill level (raw 
beginners might not be able to handle it) or some scaffolding to work, 
but it's a great idea. If someone has the time to work up a sample 
version, I'd love to see it. (Unfortunately, at the moment I don't have 
that time myself.)

Cheers,
Vern
-- 
This time for sure!
    -Bullwinkle J. Moose
-----------------------------
Vern Ceder, Director of Technology
Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804
vceder at canterburyschool.org; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137

From warren.sande at rogers.com  Wed Dec 10 17:56:45 2008
From: warren.sande at rogers.com (Warren Sande)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:56:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
Message-ID: <783044.95245.qm@web88108.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Sounds like you are trying to use chaos theory to predict the stock market.  I imagine that's been tried.  (Maybe it worked, and the programmers are keeping it to themselves and quietly becoming gazillionaires...)




________________________________
From: David MacQuigg <macquigg at ece.arizona.edu>
To: "edu-sig at python.org" <edu-sig at python.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:08:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School


>We need lots of examples where programming is useful to non-programmers.  I already mentioned the real estate agent needing to digest some data from the property appraisers office.  For the shop teacher: How about a homeowner wanting to lay tiles, avoid wastage, and slivers that look bad along the edge.  If you know Python, it is quicker to write a little program than find one, purchase and install it, read the manual, struggle with a bunch of stuff you don't really need, and maybe not get what you want in the end.  I can think of lots of examples in engineering, but they are not ordinary problems that would seem relevant to high school students.  What we need is a collection of relevant problems, easily solved with a quickie program.

Here is another suggestion:  How about a program to predict stock prices?  We'll need maybe 1000 traders, each responding to a dozen random external events.  That will gives us a simple random walk around the mean.  Now let's make it more interesting.  Give each trader a "herding tendency" making it follow more closely what its nearest neighbors are doing.  Turn up the "herding coefficient" and watch how it makes the market more erratic, ultimately turning random walk into boom and bust.


_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
Edu-sig at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
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From warren.sande at rogers.com  Wed Dec 10 18:12:26 2008
From: warren.sande at rogers.com (Warren Sande)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:12:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
Message-ID: <756167.51988.qm@web88101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>




David MacQuigg wrote:
>We need lots of examples where programming is useful to non-programmers.  I already mentioned the real estate agent 
> needing to digest some data from the property appraisers office.  For the shop teacher: How about a homeowner wanting 
> to lay tiles, avoid wastage, and slivers that look bad along the edge.  If you know Python, it is quicker to write a little 
> program than find one, purchase and install it, read the manual, struggle with a bunch of stuff you don't really need, 
> and maybe not get what you want in the end.  I can think of lots of examples in engineering, but they are not ordinary 
> problems that would seem relevant to high school students.  What we need is a collection of relevant problems, 
> easily solved with a quickie program.

These are not so easy to find.  For many of these types of problems, creating a spreadsheet is more
efficient that writing a program.  (Why re-invent the wheel?)  One could argue that having more people know how to use Excel is a good thing and goes part of the way to having a population that's more savvy at computers/math/problem-solving.  That's another discussion. 

But the
criteria of "relevant problems, easily solved with a quickie program"
is tough to meet.  Not much gets through that filter.  Problems that are relevant and complicated enough to be interesting usually require a moderately complex program to solve them.  The non-programmer has to make at least some investment in learning the basics (variables, loops, control structures, operators, lists, I/O) before taking on even the simplest problem-solving using a program.  So we need to convince people that it's:  a) not that hard   and   b) worth it.


Warren Sande.
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From winstonw at stratolab.com  Wed Dec 10 18:23:39 2008
From: winstonw at stratolab.com (Winston Wolff)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:23:39 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <756167.51988.qm@web88101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <756167.51988.qm@web88101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C606C919-CEA7-410F-9DDB-7E73902945A4@stratolab.com>

I agree that finding relevant problems that are easily solved with a  
quickie program is hard to find. One idea I've been toying with at  
Stratolab from our programming coures is having a programming game to  
artificially create interesting quickie programs.

How about Robot Wars of the past, but you are writing your robot's  
logic in Python? Each student writes a little program, drops them into  
a folder on the network.  The teacher's computer is running an Arena /  
Simulation. It checks the folder and loads any programs there and  
starts the simulation. Robots that die get deleted from the folder so  
students have to rewrite it and drop new copies in to see if they  
survive.

-Winston

On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Warren Sande wrote:

>
>
> David MacQuigg wrote:
> >We need lots of examples where programming is useful to non- 
> programmers.  I already mentioned the real estate agent
> > needing to digest some data from the property appraisers office.   
> For the shop teacher: How about a homeowner wanting
> > to lay tiles, avoid wastage, and slivers that look bad along the  
> edge.  If you know Python, it is quicker to write a little
> > program than find one, purchase and install it, read the manual,  
> struggle with a bunch of stuff you don't really need,
> > and maybe not get what you want in the end.  I can think of lots  
> of examples in engineering, but they are not ordinary
> > problems that would seem relevant to high school students.  What  
> we need is a collection of relevant problems,
> > easily solved with a quickie program.
>
> These are not so easy to find.  For many of these types of problems,  
> creating a spreadsheet is more efficient that writing a program.   
> (Why re-invent the wheel?)  One could argue that having more people  
> know how to use Excel is a good thing and goes part of the way to  
> having a population that's more savvy at computers/math/problem- 
> solving.  That's another discussion.
>
> But the criteria of "relevant problems, easily solved with a quickie  
> program" is tough to meet.  Not much gets through that filter.   
> Problems that are relevant and complicated enough to be interesting  
> usually require a moderately complex program to solve them.  The non- 
> programmer has to make at least some investment in learning the  
> basics (variables, loops, control structures, operators, lists, I/O)  
> before taking on even the simplest problem-solving using a program.   
> So we need to convince people that it's:  a) not that hard   and    
> b) worth it.
>
>
> Warren Sande.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

Winston Wolff
Stratolab - Computer Courses for Teens and Kids
(646) 827-2242 - http://stratolab.com


From mpaul213 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 18:48:25 2008
From: mpaul213 at gmail.com (michel paul)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:48:25 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081210063858.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081210063858.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <40ea4eb00812100948n26d7cc05g23f4020c88231adb@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I would think any teacher of math or science would have no difficulty using
> Python and integrating it into their teaching.  Don't teach it as a separate
> subject, but introduce each new statement as it is needed.
>

Right.  That's the strategy I thought would be most practical working within
the constraints of our math curriculum.  I decided against doing something
like a Python intro at the beginning of the semester, as student schedules
are in flux for the first couple of weeks.  The pace of a typical math
course makes it quite possible to introduce little bits of Python here and
there.  The only problem has been resistance on the part of students who
didn't see why they had to spend time on this when their friends in other
classes didn't.  That, or they were concerned that this would 'confuse'
them, and they were worried about their grade.  Silly stuff.  And then this
silly stuff would require my having to explain to various people about what
this is all about.  However, a lot of that has faded, and some students are
even asking if we could do more Python.  So that's encouraging.

There is a big contrast between doing math the traditional way, solving
equations by manipulating symbols in some boolean assertion to isolate a
variable, vs. thinking computationally - creating sets of functions to model
concepts.  Introducing this stuff eventually requires rethinking the whole
curriculum.  But one step at a time.

- Michel

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 7:35 AM, David MacQuigg <macquigg at ece.arizona.edu>wrote:

> At 02:37 PM 12/8/2008 -0500, Vern Ceder wrote:
>
> >... here are the reasons I see that more
> >schools don't offer programming:
> >
> >1) Lack of qualified staff. Sadly a graduate with a teaching certificate
> >(as required by the state) usually doesn't have anything like the
> >background to teach programming, let alone do the sorts of things that
> >Kirby has experimented with.
>
> What we need then, is not programming teachers, but teachers who are
> enthusiastic about technology, and use programming as a tool.  I would think
> any teacher of math or science would have no difficulty using Python and
> integrating it into their teaching.  Don't teach it as a separate subject,
> but introduce each new statement as it is needed.  For-loops, as an example,
> could be introduced as a tool to plot functions.  The, when the students are
> comfortable with that (and if there is time), show them a whole new and more
> general way of looking at for-loops (for item in collection).
>
> I remember taking a class in typing.  There was a lot of stuff on proper
> etiquette and formatting of business letters, and emphasis on speed and
> accuracy, but it was one of the most valuable classes I ever took.  Do they
> still have something like that, maybe a business skills class?
>
> Python has a special role here, in that it doesn't require a big, focused
> effort, as would Java.
>
> >2) Numbers - at my school, 6-10 kids in AP Programming is considered a
> >good year. In the public schools around town, in a short-sighted drive
> >for efficiency, (but see item 1 above also) administration routinely
> >kills any elective that can't get 3 times that.
> >
> >3) The whole "integration" trend in tech in education - 15 years ago it
> >was assumed that as technology became ubiquitous we wouldn't have to
> >teach it, any more than you need to know about electricity to turn on a
> >light. Of course, that analogy was bogus on both ends, but schools have
> >moved in that direction anyway, killing what little programming they did
> >have. Only now (and only very slowly) are they realizing that their
> >students are the poorer for it.
>
> This fits with Paul's theme that we don't need programmers because it will
> all be done for us, or Guido's that only the best students should study
> programming.  I was once asked by a shop teacher why I am still doing
> programming.  Aren't all the programs already written?
>
> We need lots of examples where programming is useful to non-programmers.  I
> already mentioned the real estate agent needing to digest some data from the
> property appraisers office.  For the shop teacher: How about a homeowner
> wanting to lay tiles, avoid wastage, and slivers that look bad along the
> edge.  If you know Python, it is quicker to write a little program than find
> one, purchase and install it, read the manual, struggle with a bunch of
> stuff you don't really need, and maybe not get what you want in the end.  I
> can think of lots of examples in engineering, but they are not ordinary
> problems that would seem relevant to high school students.  What we need is
> a collection of relevant problems, easily solved with a quickie program.
>
> >These factors (and others of course) combined with the many layers of
> >bureaucracy create a negative feedback loop that is next to impossible
> >for students, teachers or even parents to beat. In fact, I've talked to
> >state education officials that nearly despair of making any headway in
> >some of our schools.
>
> I would think the Federal government could play a positive role in
> encouraging modernization of our curricula.  Are there any proposals for the
> new administration?  I'm thinking of an effort similar to what the Internet
> Security Alliance is now making in the area of infrastructure for a more
> secure computing environment.  There is a whole new enthusiasm replacing the
> despair of the last few years.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 19:19:41 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:19:41 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <40ea4eb00812100948n26d7cc05g23f4020c88231adb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<493D777E.9030504@canterburyschool.org>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081210063858.02dd72f8@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<40ea4eb00812100948n26d7cc05g23f4020c88231adb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812101019x4effac3dx307dc8df591f5c0c@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/10 michel paul <mpaul213 at gmail.com>:

<< SNIP >>

> There is a big contrast between doing math the traditional way, solving
> equations by manipulating symbols in some boolean assertion to isolate a
> variable, vs. thinking computationally - creating sets of functions to model
> concepts.  Introducing this stuff eventually requires rethinking the whole
> curriculum.  But one step at a time.
>
> - Michel

Yes Michel, but let's remember "schoolish math" isn't necessarily what
the pros are doing to earn a living, with Mathematica, MathCad or
whatever.  Lots of degree holders in mathdom spend half their time
talking to coders with humanities degrees like me, explaining what
outputs from what inputs, in terms of algorithms per Knuth, i.e. the
stuff you learn in K-12 isn't "computer poor" because of anything to
do with real world mathematics in practice.

The way I might do it in Portland (write ups in blogs) is take what
we'd consider an advanced, college level theorem, such as Fermat's
Little (not Last), and use Python to verify what it asserts, not the
same thing as proving.  What I say often @ Math Forum is something
like:  before you prove a theorem, you need to know what it means,
i.e. you need to care.  Having field applications helps motivate
caring.  We might not ever get to the proof in this class (heresy!)
as these are underclassmen looking to understand RSA, haven't
chosen to become mathematicians.

What's so cool about Python is pow(2, 22, 23) is so easy to write
and explain (no import required), whereas on a calculator you get
digit overflow most the time, because of the overly small LCDs,
hamster-brained programs (not open source).

Per my Chicago talk, OSCONs before it, Texas Instruments is our
only real competition in this picture in a business case sense,
though "fear of snakes" (per 'Snakes on a Plane') is probably the
biggest psychological barrier.  North Americans are especially
superstitious about snakes, owing to their making Eve do something
bad in the Bible (what was it again?).  Ruby has an edge in that
sense (less charged) -- but then we have a Flying Circus, which
helps a lot.

We basically invite kids to "fill in the form":  pow(2, prime - 1, prime)
and verify that they always get 1 for an answer.  Then comes the
tricky part:  does that mean that if pow(2, n-1, n) returns 1, that
n must be prime?  Having verified it's true for like a gazillion primes,
the overly casual thinker might say "sure!".  But of course this is
a logical pitfall.  "if a then b" does not support "b therefore a".
That's where we talk about Carmichael numbers, look them up
on the web (OEIS).

Fermat's Little is a special case of Euler's more general one about
totients (lots of fun Python), in turn critical for getting RSA to work
(per Knuth).  All before college, looks good on your application
(that you went to this cutting edge Quaker school or whatever).

Kirby
4D

From da.ajoy at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 21:41:36 2008
From: da.ajoy at gmail.com (Daniel Ajoy)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:41:36 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <mailman.28227.1228933185.3486.edu-sig@python.org>
References: <mailman.28227.1228933185.3486.edu-sig@python.org>
Message-ID: <op.ulyrrmq40gup8g@daniel-pc>

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:19:45 -0500, <edu-sig-request at python.org> wrote:

>> But the criteria of "relevant problems, easily solved with a quickie
>> program" is tough to meet.  


Solving a Max Problem Using Logo
http://gsndev.org/archives/logo-l/1098/msg00085.html
http://gsndev.org/archives/logo-l/1098/msg00097.html
http://gsndev.org/archives/logo-l/1098/msg00104.html

(the pictures are here
http://neoparaiso.com/logo/problema-de-maximizacion.html
)


Another one is:

Calculating the MCD and MCM


Another one is finding solutions of equations using bisection.


And another point is that some problems cannot be solved using algebra or trig. I believe this is one:

http://neoparaiso.com/logo/problema-triangulos.html

It asks the student to determine the values of the segments a and b.


Daniel


From echerlin at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 22:57:48 2008
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:57:48 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <f604188c0812061137w94c523t28a73f63a9e2964a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0812101357kf15f6c0qbd7f8c41fc31c03@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:57 AM, David MacQuigg <macquigg at ece.arizona.edu> wrote:
> Kirby,
>
> This is very well written appeal, but in this mailing list, you may be preaching to the choir.  What I would like to see is a discussion of *why* there is not more teaching of programming in high school.  I can't seem to get an answer from the few high-school teachers and students I have asked. I suspect it has something to do with requiring all kids to have their own computers, not wanting the rich to have an advantage over the poor, etc.  I've thought about teaching high school myself, but the bureaucracy seems overwhelming.

It is a much more systemic problem than that. I put a lot of blame on
the anti-intellectual forces in society that want education dumbed
down so that they can lie to their own children, and then to the
general public that grows up on this pablum. The fundamental problem
is the insistence on factory-style efficiency in education, a trend
started by Prussia in the 18th century. The result is that schools
nearly always teach only material for which there is an official right
answer, while in real life, whether business, government, the arts, or
politics, all of the interesting questions have no right answer.

The education of teachers was also radically dumbed-down in the
Prussian system. Teachers were expected to know no more than was in
the textbooks they would teach from, except at the highest levels in
research universities. In this view of society, those who needed to
deal with the unanswered questions on a daily basis (other than
scientists and engineers) were to be children of the elite class who
could afford to send them to private schools to receive an entirely
different sort of education. The sort of exceedingly unpleasant system
for generating leaders within an Empire that Kipling described in
Stalky & Co. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/6422/rev0882.html

The Prussian system was put in place by a King who wanted a compliant
public that would make no attempt to interfere in his planning of the
next war, and by a right-wing Calvinist church movement that the King
preferred over the more liberal-minded Lutherans. _All_ of the
Imperial powers and the churches and business interests that supported
them supported this system for public education at home and abroad.
Japan and the State Shinto authorities particularly loved the German
educational system. Plus ?a change, plus ?'est la m?me chose.

To come back to programming, what we have had since the introduction
of personal computers in the 1970s has not been programming but
so-called "computer literacy", in which children might get as much as
an hour or two a week in the computer lab. As an immediate
consequence, nothing they learned about computers, or from using
computers, could have any relevance to the curriculum. It is only now,
with the advent of one-to-one computing, that we can even think of
addressing this problem.

If we compare the "computer literacy" approach to programming with the
actual idea of literacy, we see that what we have been doing is
pretending to think we are teaching reading and writing if we have one
room in a school with 30 pencils and pads of paper, but no library,
and we let kids practice handwriting for as much as an hour a week.
But not at home, or in public, no of course not. But what would
schools do with programming in a one-to-one computing environment?
Well, I predict that if left to themselves, they would mess it up as
badly as we mess up literacy, or math and science, or indeed any
subject today. We only let students have access to an utterly boring
and stultifying version. It is just like exposing children to killed
or attenuated viruses in order to make them immune to those viral
diseases. Our schoolbooks contain nothing like the versions of any of
these fields that made the practitioners fall in love with the
possibilities enough to put forth the effort to master some part of
it, and our schools make far too many children immune to learning
anything ever again.

Earth Treasury has just recently, actually just yesterday, come to the
conclusion that we are ready to rethink the notion of a textbook, and
to rework the curriculum from top to bottom, in order to integrate
Free Software into every aspect of every subject. Some things in
education actually take place in the material world, of course,
including gym, manual training, art, and music. Even there, the
computer is an important tool. Think of all of the computerized
athletic training and analysis systems of Olympic athletes and the
pros; or of CAD/CAM; or digital art and electronic music.

The occasion yesterday was the Program for the Future conference at
the Tech Museum (San Jose CA), Adobe Systems, and Stanford, and the
celebration of the 40th anniversary of Doug Engelbart's Mother of All
Demos (look it up and watch the video), which laid the foundations for
all modern user interfaces, and much else in software engineering,
innovation support, and more. We have come nowhere near realizing it
all. I talked with Doug, with Alan Kay (of Dynabook, Smalltalk and GUI
fame) of Viewpoints Research Institute and with Mike Linksvayer from
Creative Commons (look up their cc:Learn project) yesterday, and with
Sugar Labs, FLOSS Manuals, and Open Learning Exchange before that, and
they are all ready to talk about how we can do all this. So let me
know about any subject and age range you want to work on.

> At 11:37 AM 12/6/2008 -0800, kirby urner wrote:
>
>>...
>>
>>As such a manager, I'm frustrated with the schooling around here, but rather than just whine and complain, I get access to classrooms and start showing off how it might really be done, were those of my breed allowed to interact with the kids (rarely happens, rules prevent -- even though I've been cleared at the state level to work with kids, with fingerprinting and everything, same as any union teacher).

We can let you at a few hundred thousand kids, even if not face to face.
-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 23:39:28 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:39:28 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <e574f6eb0812101357kf15f6c0qbd7f8c41fc31c03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812061137w94c523t28a73f63a9e2964a@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081208074348.02c26e90@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
	<e574f6eb0812101357kf15f6c0qbd7f8c41fc31c03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812101439t39a3fe4bi53f7ca658b198db0@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com> wrote:

<< SNIP >>

> The occasion yesterday was the Program for the Future conference at
> the Tech Museum (San Jose CA), Adobe Systems, and Stanford, and the
> celebration of the 40th anniversary of Doug Engelbart's Mother of All
> Demos (look it up and watch the video), which laid the foundations for
> all modern user interfaces, and much else in software engineering,
> innovation support, and more. We have come nowhere near realizing it
> all. I talked with Doug, with Alan Kay (of Dynabook, Smalltalk and GUI
> fame) of Viewpoints Research Institute and with Mike Linksvayer from
> Creative Commons (look up their cc:Learn project) yesterday, and with
> Sugar Labs, FLOSS Manuals, and Open Learning Exchange before that, and
> they are all ready to talk about how we can do all this. So let me
> know about any subject and age range you want to work on.

This seemed an eloquent essay Edward, love poking fun at those
Prussians, aka control freaks par excellance.  Makes me start humming
bars from Pink Floyd ("hey, teacher...") just thinking about it.

Safe to say, much time has elapsed and for all the whining we hear
from constructivists, as if their way had never been tried, it has
been, with mixed results, which is to say we've had many success
stories, generations of geek reared on Dr. Spock, Vulcan Spock and
beyond, given microscopes, computers, free reign, lots of adulation in
school, quite the opposite of the Prussian philosophy.

Result:  Apple Computer, Silicon Valley, Silicon Forest.... i.e.,
thanks to the long-ago demise of top-down authoritarian thinking in
some circles, we have some thriving subcultures on planet Earth where
the mind runs free, bringing good things to life (GE slogan), making
the world a better place etc. etc.

The question is:  how to spread the love?  My approach is to leverage
local strengths, Portland's "good ats", and that's a pretty long list,
including cartoon-making, music, comedy and, yes, teaching Python at a
level most cities can't match, thanks to me, but also thanks to a lot
of people, many unsung (so far).  Tim Bauman comes to mind (one of my
proteges, aka Ki Master George).  Jason certainly (a fine teacher of
SQL Alchemy and like that).  Allison Randall, Damien Conway, R0ml,
Ravencroft...  a lot of us, right here on this list.

I'm not saying all of these celebs live in PDX, just that there's
reason to hope that we're not just now, at long last, emerging from
the dark ages, as if Prussia had just folded yesterday.  No, we've
been enjoying the fresh air for a few generations now, and are ready
to "bring it on" as one recent president put it (meaning something
else maybe, always hard to decipher that guy, study Dan Quayle as a
primer maybe?).

Guido's CP4E was a continuation of a noble tradition, Alan Kay in the
lineage, or Kenneth Iverson in my case (I encountered Alan much later,
long after I'd fallen in love with APL at Princeton, Alan then in his
"kill Smalltalk" slayer chapter (more in this archive))

I think the right approach is to think in terms of an svn tree, i.e. a
trunk with many branches.  We're *not* all converging to the same page
(this won't be Prussia again, don't worry).

Some of us, like me, will probably use J quite a bit, because of the
APL heritage.  Others will use Scheme / LISP, that Big Lambda family
(Python's is little lambda).

It's not about finding the "one right way to do it" (Prussian fallacy)
but rather one of encouraging local faculties to seize control of
their own destinies and not wait for "big publishers" to show them how
it's done.  We already have Cut the Knot, Mathworld, gazillions of
math-oriented YouTubes.  We're awash in relevant curriculum materials.

The last time I said anything about Kusasa (which was quite awhile
ago), it was to suggest there was no need for any new curriculum
writing whatsoever, just people need time to catch up, process what's
already out there. Of course that's a pretty stupid thing to say to a
bevy of curriculum writers rarin' to go, but I think you see my point
anyway.

There's a documentary on Britney Spears on my TV at the moment, gotta
run.  She's one of those music millennium geeks I really appreciate
these days, love how she figures into our circus, no dummy that
grrrrl.  http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2008/10/pythonic-math.html

Kirby

From gregor.lingl at aon.at  Thu Dec 11 01:44:43 2008
From: gregor.lingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 01:44:43 +0100
Subject: [Edu-sig] Programming in High School
In-Reply-To: <op.ulyrrmq40gup8g@daniel-pc>
References: <mailman.28227.1228933185.3486.edu-sig@python.org>
	<op.ulyrrmq40gup8g@daniel-pc>
Message-ID: <4940627B.7000601@aon.at>



Daniel Ajoy schrieb:
>>> But the criteria of "relevant problems, easily solved with a quickie
>>> program" is tough to meet.  
>>>       
...
>>> And another point is that some problems cannot be solved using algebra or trig. I believe this is one:
>>>
>>> http://neoparaiso.com/logo/problema-triangulos.html
>>>
>>> It asks the student to determine the values of the segments a and b.
This is a nice problem, which could also find an easy solution in 
Python, not only in Logo, of course ;-)
Like the on attached one, for instance.

I'd only like to add a few remarks to the problem discussed in this 
thread - which I also know very well as a high school teacher in Vienna, 
Austria.

(1) One root of the problem seems to be that whatever "relevant problem" 
we pose, there are *a lot* of different adequate tools to approach it in 
these modern times and it is by no means clear that programming is the 
'natural' approach. See for instance

http://www.rg16.at/~glingl/triangle/

for a different solution to Daniel's problem.

(2) To profit from beeing able to program needs continuous practice. So 
as a teacher of a math class you had to convince *all* of your students 
to do it continually.

(3) This - at least here in Austria - seems to be impossible as long as 
programming is not part of the official math curriculum (like for 
instance the appropriate use of a pocket calculator). Even core math is 
not done by *all* students on their own free will, because they enjoy 
it, or they are interested in it, but by some of them often only because 
they *need* it for their gradutation. And I suppose that programming 
will  never be part of the standard curriculum, even if only because 
only a small part of the maths teachers are proficient in programming. 
So they naturally would oppose such a change.

(4) Moreover it seems to me, that even in the area of computer science 
or computer technology the part which is occupied by programming is 
getting smaller. 25 years ago, if you wanted to do some interesting 
things with a computer, you *had* to be able to program, while nowadays 
there are so many interesting things you can do without programming. For 
instance what do you think, which part of the people working in the 
comuter game industry are programmers? I suppose, this trend also 
diminishes the young people's interest in programming (as well as the 
school authorities interest in putting programming into the mainstream 
curricula.)

(5) Despite all of this I'd also like to contribute a problem, I 
stumbled over yersterday, incidentally. It might not be 'relevant' but 
it's also one that most probably couldn't be solved without computers 
and which without doubt has the potential to stimulate the student's 
interest in math as well as computing:

Christian Goldbach (1690-1783), stated several number theoretical 
conjectures, among them the famous Goldbach conjecture, concerning the 
set of even numbers > 2.

An other (similar) one is the following: every odd positive integer 
could be written in the form p + 2*a**2, where p is a prime (or 1, then 
considered a prime) and a >=0 is an integer. Example: 23 = 5 + 2*3**2 
(to use Python notation). Euler checked this conjecture for odd numbers 
up to 2500 and he didn't find a counter example. Only a century later 
two counter examples were found in the range below 10000.  What are 
these two numbers?
The curious thing is, that to this day these two numbers remain the only 
ones found.

Regards

Gregor




>>> Daniel
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Edu-sig mailing list
>>> Edu-sig at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>>>
>>>
>>>       
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 03:47:36 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:47:36 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] computer algebra
Message-ID: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>

So I've been yakking with Ian (tizard.stanford.edu) re the new
fractions.py, installed in Standard Library per 2.6, saw it demoed at
a recent user group meeting (PPUG).

Python's __div__ is similar to Mathematica's computer algebra notion
of division in that you're free to divide any type by any type,
providing this makes any algebraic sense, using a kind of liberal duck
typing.

What I mean by that is __div__ by itself doesn't pre-specify anything,
so if there's a meaningful way to deploy the division operator between
arguments A, B, then go ahead and do it, write you code accordingly.

In Java, we could write __div__ in all different ways depending on
valid type permutations (not that Java has operator overloading, just
stricter typing at write time means you've gotta post "guards at the
gate" in your methods).  Python, with late binding, duck typing, won't
post guards, but you'll still need to write algorithms capable of
sorting out the possibilities.  Maybe the user throws you a matrix?
Has an inverse.  OK, so __div__ makes some sense...

fractions.py in contrast, implements the narrow Q type, the rational
number, defined as p / q where p, q are members of the set integers.

One could imagine a Fraction class that eats two complex numbers, or
two Decimals.  Computer algebra attaches meaning here, as in both sets
we're able to define a multiplicative identity such that A / B means A
* B**(-1) i.e. A * pow(B, -1) i.e. A * (1/B).

So the results of this operation, Fraction(A, B), might be some object
holding the Decimal or Complex result.  In generic algebra,
everything's a duck, although conversion between types is possible
(yes, that sounds nonsensical).

fractions.Fraction, on the other hand, barfs on anything but integers,
isn't trying to be all divisions to all possible types, isn't
pretending this is Mathematica or a generic CAS.

Note that I'm not criticizing fractions.py in any way, am so far quite
happy with it.  I'm simply drawing attention to some fine points.

Related:

When I went to all the trouble to compose two functions, f and g,
using __mul__, I'd get comments like:  but the "open oh" (another
symbol) is the "composition operator" i.e. "you're only using *
because ASCII doesn't include the 'open oh'".

However, I was making a different point:  that in group theory math
texts, we're proud to use "regular" multiplication and division
operators for such operations as "compositions of functions" because
we're thinking __mul__ and __div__ have that generic meaning -- we
neither need, nor want, the proliferation of symbols the "open oh"
people think we must need.

Note that by "open oh" I'm not talking about "big oh", a different
notation that I don't think is redundant, agree with Knuth that if
your calculus book doesn't include it, you're probably in one of those
computer illiterate schools (ETS slave, whatever).

Kirby

From guido at python.org  Thu Dec 11 05:27:17 2008
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:27:17 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] computer algebra
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20812102027q465a5d12y6f4aab82aaef88d8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:47 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
> So I've been yakking with Ian (tizard.stanford.edu) re the new
> fractions.py, installed in Standard Library per 2.6, saw it demoed at
> a recent user group meeting (PPUG).
>
> Python's __div__ is similar to Mathematica's computer algebra notion
> of division in that you're free to divide any type by any type,
> providing this makes any algebraic sense, using a kind of liberal duck
> typing.
>
> What I mean by that is __div__ by itself doesn't pre-specify anything,
> so if there's a meaningful way to deploy the division operator between
> arguments A, B, then go ahead and do it, write you code accordingly.

Or unmeaningful! Unlike (I presume) Mathematica, Python doesn't mind
if you define a/b as multiplication. Your users might mind though. :-)

> In Java, we could write __div__ in all different ways depending on
> valid type permutations (not that Java has operator overloading, just
> stricter typing at write time means you've gotta post "guards at the
> gate" in your methods).  Python, with late binding, duck typing, won't
> post guards, but you'll still need to write algorithms capable of
> sorting out the possibilities.  Maybe the user throws you a matrix?
> Has an inverse.  OK, so __div__ makes some sense...
>
> fractions.py in contrast, implements the narrow Q type, the rational
> number, defined as p / q where p, q are members of the set integers.
>
> One could imagine a Fraction class that eats two complex numbers, or
> two Decimals.  Computer algebra attaches meaning here, as in both sets
> we're able to define a multiplicative identity such that A / B means A
> * B**(-1) i.e. A * pow(B, -1) i.e. A * (1/B).

It's not so easy though. The specific purpose of the Fraction class is
to always reduce the fraction to a canonical representation using the
GCD algorithm (e.g. 15/12 becomes 5/4), which only applies to
integers.

> So the results of this operation, Fraction(A, B), might be some object
> holding the Decimal or Complex result.  In generic algebra,
> everything's a duck, although conversion between types is possible
> (yes, that sounds nonsensical).
>
> fractions.Fraction, on the other hand, barfs on anything but integers,
> isn't trying to be all divisions to all possible types, isn't
> pretending this is Mathematica or a generic CAS.

Fortunately Python supports a way of overloading binary operators
where it is sufficient if *one* of the operands knows how to deal with
the other. So Fraction(3, 4) * 2j happily returns 1.5j. You don't have
to teach Fraction about Matrix if you can teach Matrix about Fraction.

> Note that I'm not criticizing fractions.py in any way, am so far quite
> happy with it.  I'm simply drawing attention to some fine points.
>
> Related:
>
> When I went to all the trouble to compose two functions, f and g,
> using __mul__, I'd get comments like:  but the "open oh" (another
> symbol) is the "composition operator" i.e. "you're only using *
> because ASCII doesn't include the 'open oh'".
>
> However, I was making a different point:  that in group theory math
> texts, we're proud to use "regular" multiplication and division
> operators for such operations as "compositions of functions" because
> we're thinking __mul__ and __div__ have that generic meaning -- we
> neither need, nor want, the proliferation of symbols the "open oh"
> people think we must need.

There are different schools of thought about this actually. I don't
think pride comes into it. Inventing and using specialized symbols is
often useful in math because it provides more context. If you write "f
* g" the reader would need to know in advance that f and g are
functions or else they wouldn't know what was meant. But if you write
"f o g" then the reader can *infer* that f and g are functions. Python
happens to use the former (overloading based on argument types);
Python's predecessor ABC used the latter (type inferencing based on
operators). Neither is necessarily better than the other.

There are also fields of mathematics where both are used, with a
different meaning; e.g. f o g would mean functional composition while
f * g could mean the function you get by multiplying f(x) and g(x). In
Python:

def open_oh(f, g):
  return lambda x: f(g(x))

def star(f, g):
  return lambda x: f(x) * g(x)

> Note that by "open oh" I'm not talking about "big oh", a different
> notation that I don't think is redundant, agree with Knuth that if
> your calculus book doesn't include it, you're probably in one of those
> computer illiterate schools (ETS slave, whatever).

I think that comment is a little out of line. BTW big Oh is not part
of calculus, it's part of complexity theory, a totally different field
(more relevant to computers than calculus though).

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 05:39:10 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:39:10 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] computer algebra
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20812102027q465a5d12y6f4aab82aaef88d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20812102027q465a5d12y6f4aab82aaef88d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812102039lece6641l5d89a0647cedc3b7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:27 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:

<<  SNIP >>

> There are different schools of thought about this actually. I don't
> think pride comes into it.

Well, *my* school is quite pompous about it.  We think "open oh" is for sissies.

But that's just us (quirky).  Others more sobering.

<< GOOD STUFF >>

>> Note that by "open oh" I'm not talking about "big oh", a different
>> notation that I don't think is redundant, agree with Knuth that if
>> your calculus book doesn't include it, you're probably in one of those
>> computer illiterate schools (ETS slave, whatever).
>
> I think that comment is a little out of line. BTW big Oh is not part
> of calculus, it's part of complexity theory, a totally different field
> (more relevant to computers than calculus though).
>

Not part of calculus as commonly taught today, but *would* be if
Donald Knuth had his way:

http://micromath.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/donald-knuth-calculus-via-o-notation/

Kirby

> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>

From MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu  Thu Dec 11 07:04:29 2008
From: MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu (DiPierro, Massimo)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:04:29 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] computer algebra
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812102039lece6641l5d89a0647cedc3b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20812102027q465a5d12y6f4aab82aaef88d8@mail.gmail.com>,
	<f604188c0812102039lece6641l5d89a0647cedc3b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808F243D0C@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>

The problem is that calculus tends to deal with the concept of infinitesimally small and O(eps) is used for small eps. Computer Science tends to deal with complexity and O(n) is used for large n. The Big-Oh definitions are different:

i) In calculus f(x) in O(g(x)) iff lim_{x\rightarrow 0} f(x)/g(x) < \infty  

ii) In CS f(x) in O(g(x)) iff lim_{x\rightarrow\infty} f(x)/g(x) < \infty  

It is common to use (i) to teach calculus (I was thought that way) but it is not common to use (ii) to teach algorithms. I do so in my notes for Design and Analysis of Algorithms [1]
and students like it but many computer scientists believe that using limits is just an extra step.

Massimo 

[1]http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Emdipierro/algorithms-animator/devel/download/3/csc321notes.pdf-20080914191632-ofooevmsoqqnkrpz-6/csc321notes.pdf?file_id=csc321notes.pdf-20080914191632-ofooevmsoqqnkrpz-6




________________________________________
From: edu-sig-bounces+mdipierro=cs.depaul.edu at python.org [edu-sig-bounces+mdipierro=cs.depaul.edu at python.org] On Behalf Of kirby urner [kirby.urner at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:39 PM
To: edu-sig at python.org
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] computer algebra

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:27 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:

<<  SNIP >>

> There are different schools of thought about this actually. I don't
> think pride comes into it.

Well, *my* school is quite pompous about it.  We think "open oh" is for sissies.

But that's just us (quirky).  Others more sobering.

<< GOOD STUFF >>

>> Note that by "open oh" I'm not talking about "big oh", a different
>> notation that I don't think is redundant, agree with Knuth that if
>> your calculus book doesn't include it, you're probably in one of those
>> computer illiterate schools (ETS slave, whatever).
>
> I think that comment is a little out of line. BTW big Oh is not part
> of calculus, it's part of complexity theory, a totally different field
> (more relevant to computers than calculus though).
>

Not part of calculus as commonly taught today, but *would* be if
Donald Knuth had his way:

http://micromath.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/donald-knuth-calculus-via-o-notation/

Kirby

> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>
_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
Edu-sig at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 18:42:20 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:42:20 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] computer algebra
In-Reply-To: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808F243D0C@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
References: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20812102027q465a5d12y6f4aab82aaef88d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812102039lece6641l5d89a0647cedc3b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808F243D0C@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812110942r393372bdxbbec8c9994dc0153@mail.gmail.com>

You're lucky to understand this so well and to get (i) for calculus.

I always thought big-O was used more to teach about algorithms (their
efficiency), which is where I first encountered it.  So maybe Knuth's
calls for calculus reform were heeded after all and I'm just behind
the times.

On another topic: should we tell Channel 6 that Guido is right here on
edu-sig.  I think we should help hide him.  I saw that documentary
about
Britney Spears yesterday.  Paparazzi have made her life somewhat
more difficult than it needs to be, even though she's a karate kid.

http://www.channel6tvnews.com/story/agc2dHZuZXdzcgsLEgRjYXJkGPEkDA

Kirby


On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:04 PM, DiPierro, Massimo
<MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> The problem is that calculus tends to deal with the concept of infinitesimally small and O(eps) is used for small eps. Computer Science tends to deal with complexity and O(n) is used for large n. The Big-Oh definitions are different:
>
> i) In calculus f(x) in O(g(x)) iff lim_{x\rightarrow 0} f(x)/g(x) < \infty
>
> ii) In CS f(x) in O(g(x)) iff lim_{x\rightarrow\infty} f(x)/g(x) < \infty
>
> It is common to use (i) to teach calculus (I was thought that way) but it is not common to use (ii) to teach algorithms. I do so in my notes for Design and Analysis of Algorithms [1]
> and students like it but many computer scientists believe that using limits is just an extra step.
>
> Massimo
>
> [1]http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Emdipierro/algorithms-animator/devel/download/3/csc321notes.pdf-20080914191632-ofooevmsoqqnkrpz-6/csc321notes.pdf?file_id=csc321notes.pdf-20080914191632-ofooevmsoqqnkrpz-6
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: edu-sig-bounces+mdipierro=cs.depaul.edu at python.org [edu-sig-bounces+mdipierro=cs.depaul.edu at python.org] On Behalf Of kirby urner [kirby.urner at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:39 PM
> To: edu-sig at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] computer algebra
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:27 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>
> <<  SNIP >>
>
>> There are different schools of thought about this actually. I don't
>> think pride comes into it.
>
> Well, *my* school is quite pompous about it.  We think "open oh" is for sissies.
>
> But that's just us (quirky).  Others more sobering.
>
> << GOOD STUFF >>
>
>>> Note that by "open oh" I'm not talking about "big oh", a different
>>> notation that I don't think is redundant, agree with Knuth that if
>>> your calculus book doesn't include it, you're probably in one of those
>>> computer illiterate schools (ETS slave, whatever).
>>
>> I think that comment is a little out of line. BTW big Oh is not part
>> of calculus, it's part of complexity theory, a totally different field
>> (more relevant to computers than calculus though).
>>
>
> Not part of calculus as commonly taught today, but *would* be if
> Donald Knuth had his way:
>
> http://micromath.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/donald-knuth-calculus-via-o-notation/
>
> Kirby
>
>> --
>> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>

From jasonrbriggs at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 22:51:57 2008
From: jasonrbriggs at gmail.com (Jason Briggs)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:51:57 +0000
Subject: [Edu-sig] updating to Python 3
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812110942r393372bdxbbec8c9994dc0153@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20812102027q465a5d12y6f4aab82aaef88d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812102039lece6641l5d89a0647cedc3b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808F243D0C@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
	<f604188c0812110942r393372bdxbbec8c9994dc0153@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <76E5676B-4570-4295-9014-193FC03E0A6B@gmail.com>

Hi All

Just a general announcement: I've just updated my python programming  
book (Snake Wrangling for Kids) for Python 3.  Not much in the way of  
changes really, adjusting print statements, use of range, etc.

One of the advantages of being unpublished(/self-published), is that  
it's not as much of a big deal to update, when Guido changes the  
language... in fact... bring on Python 4000!!!  ;-)

The new PDFs are available here:  http://www.briggs.net.nz/log/writing/snake-wrangling-for-kids/

Regards
Jason

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 22:08:17 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:08:17 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] teaching about privacy
Message-ID: <f604188c0812121308i6e661fe0g60eb734367fd9fae@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a way of giving students more of a sense of Python's "privacy layers".

We're obviously drawing on experience with signage, various
prohibitions likely already tuned in, e.g.:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3051792354/

Here's the diagram:

class Snake:

  def __init__(self):
      # birth method, use triggering syntax:  newsnake = Snake()
      pass

  def _DontTouchMe(self)
      # authorized personal only (for maintenance, janitorial, internal use)
      pass

  def __YouShouldntHaveDoneThat(self)
      # keep out:  actively discourage tourists, outsiders
      pass

For those into American history, there's also this connotation (thanks
to the snake imagery):

http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22don%27t+tread+on+me%22

However, we should balance these strident (commanding) remonstrations
with simple reminders about *why* we might want privacy.

A lot of it has to do with retaining developer freedoms to change
implementation, without changing the "user experience" i.e. the API,
i.e. the "exposed" or "exported" methods are safe to rely on, but we
have "under the hood" code we might want to rip out and replace, not
the business of our clients.

Privacy protections communicate where it's important *not* to "put
your weight" e.g "place a dependency" on something.

In cartoon terms, we might show a rickety bridge over a ravine, like
in Indiana Jones:

"Not safe to put your full weight on this board" is another meaning of
__KeepOff.

"Snake as potentially live wire" might be a good way to package this
meme (curriculum segment).

We also need to explain about munging (mangling).

Kirby

From csev at umich.edu  Sat Dec 13 15:59:26 2008
From: csev at umich.edu (csev)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 09:59:26 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] What is the Best Way to use Python in the Windows Command
	Line
Message-ID: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>

I teach a number of classes at the University of Michigan that are  
about Python and that use Python.    We have gone from no Python  
classes last year to five classes and four teachers that teach Python  
at UM.  We share intro documentation on how to install and set up the  
environment.

One thing that really bugs me is that the WIndows Python installer  
does not add itself to the Path automatically.

Since I insist that students can be allowed to use Mac's or PCs - I  
try to create a similar environment for both and the command line is  
the lowest common denominator.

I end up publishing detailed documents and screen casts to get python  
into your Windows path.  It works but it is not where I want students  
energy focused in the first week of class.

I am wondering if there is another way.

I generally do not like IDLE - it uses a socket which can get messed  
up, bugs in the student's code seem to mess up the IDE, when a program  
needs to open a data file - it is hard to force IDLE into a known  
directory.

Is there a way to use an icon and then start the icon an have the  
current working directory (i.e. to open data files) be the same  
directory as the Python file?  And then is there a way to get the  
output to stop at the end and not disappear when the program finishes?

I do not like solutions which include adding code to the student  
programs to do things like pause before terminating or setting the  
current working directory. The students have enough trouble figuring  
out the 20 lines of code that matter let alone 5-6 lines of obtuse  
code to set up the environment.

I can continue to teach them how to set the PATH variable in Windows -  
if anyone on this list has a suggestion - I would much appreciate it.

Thanks.

Charles Severance
University of Michigan

From igor at tamarapatino.org  Sat Dec 13 16:48:51 2008
From: igor at tamarapatino.org (Igor =?iso-8859-1?Q?T=E1mara?=)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:48:51 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] What is the Best Way to use Python in the Windows
	Command Line
In-Reply-To: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
References: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <20081213154851.GS6495@tamarapatino.org>

Hi, maybe for the first weeks use crunchy, install a server
somewhere, so they can use it, when you go further on the semester
you can get them involved in the cli.

Is a shame that advanced tools on the cli are hidden for people from
GUI ones.   Their minds will be "expanded" when they start to use
the cli.

Another way is to allow a machine with ssh for your students, so
they are able to use say ajaxterm or something like that to start
coding, they will be involved in having an account on a remote
machine that holds they work.  It turns interesting for people that
are only used to "just" a PC(or MAC), without knowing the power of
remote connections and the concept to **share** resources(machines
and materials) and publish(public_html) their work. Well, if it's
possible to setup a revision control system, on more courses, they
will start to appreciate powerful tools, maybe the most advanced
would be able to get in touch with many interesting things.

My high school students started to use subversion and they got
really involved and motivated when they saw graphics that showed
their commits :)
  http://www.gfc.edu.co/repositorio/2008/

They have just finished their work now, but you can see a show of
the work done of one of them on 
  http://www.gfc.edu.co/~danmar/

He used visual python, pygame, curses and had a lot of fun coding...

Finally, an option would be to have a linux(livecd) where the cli is
really friendly where they have all the necessary packages without
the hazzle of administering viruses and unpredictable results...

P.D:We use Debian Linux at our school, and administration is really
painless.  Some of the students know how to install it, and have it
also at their homes.  This is a ongoing work that will reach its
10th aniversary ;)  They start to use linux from 6 years old...

csev> I teach a number of classes at the University of Michigan that are  
csev> about Python and that use Python.    We have gone from no Python  
csev> classes last year to five classes and four teachers that teach Python  
csev> at UM.  We share intro documentation on how to install and set up the  
csev> environment.
csev> 
csev> One thing that really bugs me is that the WIndows Python installer  
csev> does not add itself to the Path automatically.
csev> 
csev> Since I insist that students can be allowed to use Mac's or PCs - I  
csev> try to create a similar environment for both and the command line is  
csev> the lowest common denominator.
csev> 
csev> I end up publishing detailed documents and screen casts to get python  
csev> into your Windows path.  It works but it is not where I want students  
csev> energy focused in the first week of class.
csev> 
csev> I am wondering if there is another way.
csev> 
csev> I generally do not like IDLE - it uses a socket which can get messed  
csev> up, bugs in the student's code seem to mess up the IDE, when a program  
csev> needs to open a data file - it is hard to force IDLE into a known  
csev> directory.
csev> 
csev> Is there a way to use an icon and then start the icon an have the  
csev> current working directory (i.e. to open data files) be the same  
csev> directory as the Python file?  And then is there a way to get the  
csev> output to stop at the end and not disappear when the program finishes?
csev> 
csev> I do not like solutions which include adding code to the student  
csev> programs to do things like pause before terminating or setting the  
csev> current working directory. The students have enough trouble figuring  
csev> out the 20 lines of code that matter let alone 5-6 lines of obtuse  
csev> code to set up the environment.
csev> 
csev> I can continue to teach them how to set the PATH variable in Windows -  
csev> if anyone on this list has a suggestion - I would much appreciate it.
csev> 
csev> Thanks.
csev> 
csev> Charles Severance
csev> University of Michigan
csev> _______________________________________________
csev> Edu-sig mailing list
csev> Edu-sig at python.org
csev> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

-- 
Recomiendo Inkscape para hacer gr?ficos vectoriales
http://www.inkscape.org
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From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Sat Dec 13 17:23:27 2008
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:23:27 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] What is the Best Way to use Python in the Windows
	Command Line
In-Reply-To: <20081213154851.GS6495@tamarapatino.org>
References: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
	<20081213154851.GS6495@tamarapatino.org>
Message-ID: <832C3F0D-069C-47D9-AB15-504621211918@cs.depaul.edu>

I do not know if this is helpful but the web2py windows distribution  
includes portable python and does not require installation. You just  
type

     web2py.exe -S  admin

and you have a python shell or you can do

     web2py.exe -S admin -R /path/to/yourfile.py

It includes Tk all standard python libraries.
There are have some bonus features that students may find convenient  
like browser based editor with syntax highlighting, wysiwyg editor  
for HTML files and easy to use database API.

Massimo


On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:48 AM, Igor T?mara wrote:

> Hi, maybe for the first weeks use crunchy, install a server
> somewhere, so they can use it, when you go further on the semester
> you can get them involved in the cli.
>
> Is a shame that advanced tools on the cli are hidden for people from
> GUI ones.   Their minds will be "expanded" when they start to use
> the cli.
>
> Another way is to allow a machine with ssh for your students, so
> they are able to use say ajaxterm or something like that to start
> coding, they will be involved in having an account on a remote
> machine that holds they work.  It turns interesting for people that
> are only used to "just" a PC(or MAC), without knowing the power of
> remote connections and the concept to **share** resources(machines
> and materials) and publish(public_html) their work. Well, if it's
> possible to setup a revision control system, on more courses, they
> will start to appreciate powerful tools, maybe the most advanced
> would be able to get in touch with many interesting things.
>
> My high school students started to use subversion and they got
> really involved and motivated when they saw graphics that showed
> their commits :)
>   http://www.gfc.edu.co/repositorio/2008/
>
> They have just finished their work now, but you can see a show of
> the work done of one of them on
>   http://www.gfc.edu.co/~danmar/
>
> He used visual python, pygame, curses and had a lot of fun coding...
>
> Finally, an option would be to have a linux(livecd) where the cli is
> really friendly where they have all the necessary packages without
> the hazzle of administering viruses and unpredictable results...
>
> P.D:We use Debian Linux at our school, and administration is really
> painless.  Some of the students know how to install it, and have it
> also at their homes.  This is a ongoing work that will reach its
> 10th aniversary ;)  They start to use linux from 6 years old...
>
> csev> I teach a number of classes at the University of Michigan  
> that are
> csev> about Python and that use Python.    We have gone from no Python
> csev> classes last year to five classes and four teachers that  
> teach Python
> csev> at UM.  We share intro documentation on how to install and  
> set up the
> csev> environment.
> csev>
> csev> One thing that really bugs me is that the WIndows Python  
> installer
> csev> does not add itself to the Path automatically.
> csev>
> csev> Since I insist that students can be allowed to use Mac's or  
> PCs - I
> csev> try to create a similar environment for both and the command  
> line is
> csev> the lowest common denominator.
> csev>
> csev> I end up publishing detailed documents and screen casts to  
> get python
> csev> into your Windows path.  It works but it is not where I want  
> students
> csev> energy focused in the first week of class.
> csev>
> csev> I am wondering if there is another way.
> csev>
> csev> I generally do not like IDLE - it uses a socket which can get  
> messed
> csev> up, bugs in the student's code seem to mess up the IDE, when  
> a program
> csev> needs to open a data file - it is hard to force IDLE into a  
> known
> csev> directory.
> csev>
> csev> Is there a way to use an icon and then start the icon an have  
> the
> csev> current working directory (i.e. to open data files) be the same
> csev> directory as the Python file?  And then is there a way to get  
> the
> csev> output to stop at the end and not disappear when the program  
> finishes?
> csev>
> csev> I do not like solutions which include adding code to the student
> csev> programs to do things like pause before terminating or  
> setting the
> csev> current working directory. The students have enough trouble  
> figuring
> csev> out the 20 lines of code that matter let alone 5-6 lines of  
> obtuse
> csev> code to set up the environment.
> csev>
> csev> I can continue to teach them how to set the PATH variable in  
> Windows -
> csev> if anyone on this list has a suggestion - I would much  
> appreciate it.
> csev>
> csev> Thanks.
> csev>
> csev> Charles Severance
> csev> University of Michigan
> csev> _______________________________________________
> csev> Edu-sig mailing list
> csev> Edu-sig at python.org
> csev> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
> -- 
> Recomiendo Inkscape para hacer gr?ficos vectoriales
> http://www.inkscape.org<signature.asc><ATT00001.txt>


From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sat Dec 13 18:09:54 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 09:09:54 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Thoughts about IDLE
Message-ID: <f604188c0812130909t1ce89ed9odd40185a186d28ea@mail.gmail.com>

Per very early in the edu-sig archive, I've always found IDLE both
necessary and sufficient for most of my teaching needs, whereas in
development I've used Vim (which I suck at), random editors and tools,
less Eclipse than you might think, Wing.  However, for quick scripts,
IDLE works on the job as well, especially in Akbar font.

What frustrates me in class though, is I'll get low on the projected
screen, having entered a bunch of session variables, identified a lot
of stuff, and then I'm sort of stuck to the lower edge, unable to wipe
to the top and/or mouse blank command line to the top (drag
operation).

What's great about IDLE over say IPython is how mouse friendly it is,
so easy to dive-bomb into a function def 100 lines back in time and
bring it down (into the present), for revisions.  You'll understand
why I'm so comfortable with this approach if you understand my
heritage as a dBase programmer.

I think some newcomers to snake charming might be surprised how many
of us came up through the pre open source ranks using xBase, which at
one time Microsoft touted as the third of three pillars, VB and C/C++
the other two.  Those were the bad old days before Unix swept the
world by storm in the form of GNU Linux and we got access to true
agiles.  But not everything about those days was a waste of time.  We
couldn't have gotten "here" without some kind of "there" there.

I think the future of IDLE (if I may speculate idly) will involve
getting those plug-ins for non Latin-1 keyboards to drive iconic
glyph-making on screen.

As to Python itself, I've been wondering allowed whether __op__ =
[klingon symbol] would be too terrible, or some other mechanism for
opening the operator overloading mechanism to arbitrary Unicode
symbols, without proliferating the number of special names in some out
of control fashion (i.e. you don't want a __[symbol]__ for each
possible symbol we might be tempted to repurpose).

Perhaps the more attractive option, consistent with my disdain for
"open oh" in place of __mul__, would be to restrict to these few
operators, and suggest developers disabuse themselves of the notion
that "more is better" in the case of operators to overload.  Not only
do you not *need* more than but a few (given how generic their
capabilities -- as Guido just pointed out, you can pervert / to
implement * if you care to, or just go __mul__ = __div__) but you
should curb your *want* for that many.  Think of your readers for a
change.

I'd be interested in what other teachers are doing when it comes to
projecting Python in front of the class and rattling stuff out in a
shell (not just showing scaffolding).  When we get low on the screen,
kids in the back have a harder time seeing.  Yet we want that
dBase-style chronology (characteristic of most shells, bash included)
and mouse friendliness, something more like a canvas, less like a
teletype.

Finally, as someone with bookkeeping heritage, I like shells which
"preserve mistakes" in the sense of keeping transactions on file,
almost like patches and diffs in a version control system.  You don't
want to be able to "change the past in the past" once you've got a
time sequence going, as that's not reflective of real time experience,
so breaks the metaphor.  If you had a typo at 2:30 PM, just copy it
down to 3:00 PM and edit it, don't pretend you got it right the first
time.  IDLE is like that.

Kirby

From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sun Dec 14 00:26:23 2008
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:26:23 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] What is the Best Way to use Python in the Windows
	Command Line
In-Reply-To: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
References: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <gi1gad$di2$1@ger.gmane.org>

csev wrote:
> ...We share intro documentation on how to install and set up ...
> I end up publishing detailed documents and screen casts to get python 
> into your Windows path.  It works but it is not where I want students 
> energy focused in the first week of class.
> I am wondering if there is another way.

Have you considered contacting ActiveState?  Their installers generally
work very nicely for me, and I like to recommend them to people who want
a turn-key install.  I suspect you could talk them into some special
deal to redistribute the installer as an academic institution, but at
the very least your students could download their installer themselves
for the economical price of $0.00.

--Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From stef.mientki at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 00:59:48 2008
From: stef.mientki at gmail.com (Stef Mientki)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:59:48 +0100
Subject: [Edu-sig] What is the Best Way to use Python in the Windows
 Command Line
In-Reply-To: <832C3F0D-069C-47D9-AB15-504621211918@cs.depaul.edu>
References: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>	<20081213154851.GS6495@tamarapatino.org>
	<832C3F0D-069C-47D9-AB15-504621211918@cs.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <49444C74.1000201@gmail.com>

Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
> I do not know if this is helpful but the web2py windows distribution 
> includes portable python and does not require installation. You just type
>
>     web2py.exe -S  admin
>
> and you have a python shell or you can do
>
>     web2py.exe -S admin -R /path/to/yourfile.py
>
> It includes Tk all standard python libraries.
> There are have some bonus features that students may find convenient 
> like browser based editor with syntax highlighting, wysiwyg editor for 
> HTML files and easy to use database API.
What do you use as  the "browser based editor with syntax highlighting"
and the "wysiwyg editor for HTML files " ?

thanks,
Stef
>
> Massimo
>


From mpaul213 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 01:50:50 2008
From: mpaul213 at gmail.com (michel paul)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:50:50 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Thoughts about IDLE
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812130909t1ce89ed9odd40185a186d28ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812130909t1ce89ed9odd40185a186d28ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40ea4eb00812131650v696aff2ar3885d3ff086c25a4@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 9:09 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:

What frustrates me in class though, is I'll get low on the projected
screen, having entered a bunch of session variables, identified a lot
of stuff, and then I'm sort of stuck to the lower edge, unable to wipe
to the top and/or mouse blank command line to the top (drag
operation).

I have found it useful to resize the shell and a programming window so each
occupies one half of the screen.  Above in the programming window is text I
want to present, and below is the Shell waiting for interaction.

I like the idea of intermingling text and executable code.  Using triple
quoted blocks, you can use a programming window like an extremely primitive
text editor, and I appreciate the simplicity of that.  I put down the
thoughts I want to express as simple text, as in email, and I break up the
text blocks with lines of code to illustrate what I'm trying to say.  So
instead of commenting being used to explain code, I use executable code to
illustrate text.

I think it makes more sense to have the presentation text be the top window
and have the Shell be the bottom window, but then you can get the same
boxed-in thing happening at the bottom.  But the half-windows can easily be
dragged around.  The arrangement isn't rigid.  So if I need the Shell for
extended interaction I can drag it to center or expand it, but if I want to
go back to the primary material, it's easy.

That's what's so cool about pure and simple Python right out of the box.
You can use it in all kinds of ways.

- Michel

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 9:09 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:

> Per very early in the edu-sig archive, I've always found IDLE both
> necessary and sufficient for most of my teaching needs, whereas in
> development I've used Vim (which I suck at), random editors and tools,
> less Eclipse than you might think, Wing.  However, for quick scripts,
> IDLE works on the job as well, especially in Akbar font.
>
> What frustrates me in class though, is I'll get low on the projected
> screen, having entered a bunch of session variables, identified a lot
> of stuff, and then I'm sort of stuck to the lower edge, unable to wipe
> to the top and/or mouse blank command line to the top (drag
> operation).
>
> What's great about IDLE over say IPython is how mouse friendly it is,
> so easy to dive-bomb into a function def 100 lines back in time and
> bring it down (into the present), for revisions.  You'll understand
> why I'm so comfortable with this approach if you understand my
> heritage as a dBase programmer.
>
> I think some newcomers to snake charming might be surprised how many
> of us came up through the pre open source ranks using xBase, which at
> one time Microsoft touted as the third of three pillars, VB and C/C++
> the other two.  Those were the bad old days before Unix swept the
> world by storm in the form of GNU Linux and we got access to true
> agiles.  But not everything about those days was a waste of time.  We
> couldn't have gotten "here" without some kind of "there" there.
>
> I think the future of IDLE (if I may speculate idly) will involve
> getting those plug-ins for non Latin-1 keyboards to drive iconic
> glyph-making on screen.
>
> As to Python itself, I've been wondering allowed whether __op__ =
> [klingon symbol] would be too terrible, or some other mechanism for
> opening the operator overloading mechanism to arbitrary Unicode
> symbols, without proliferating the number of special names in some out
> of control fashion (i.e. you don't want a __[symbol]__ for each
> possible symbol we might be tempted to repurpose).
>
> Perhaps the more attractive option, consistent with my disdain for
> "open oh" in place of __mul__, would be to restrict to these few
> operators, and suggest developers disabuse themselves of the notion
> that "more is better" in the case of operators to overload.  Not only
> do you not *need* more than but a few (given how generic their
> capabilities -- as Guido just pointed out, you can pervert / to
> implement * if you care to, or just go __mul__ = __div__) but you
> should curb your *want* for that many.  Think of your readers for a
> change.
>
> I'd be interested in what other teachers are doing when it comes to
> projecting Python in front of the class and rattling stuff out in a
> shell (not just showing scaffolding).  When we get low on the screen,
> kids in the back have a harder time seeing.  Yet we want that
> dBase-style chronology (characteristic of most shells, bash included)
> and mouse friendliness, something more like a canvas, less like a
> teletype.
>
> Finally, as someone with bookkeeping heritage, I like shells which
> "preserve mistakes" in the sense of keeping transactions on file,
> almost like patches and diffs in a version control system.  You don't
> want to be able to "change the past in the past" once you've got a
> time sequence going, as that's not reflective of real time experience,
> so breaks the metaphor.  If you had a typo at 2:30 PM, just copy it
> down to 3:00 PM and edit it, don't pretend you got it right the first
> time.  IDLE is like that.
>
> Kirby
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 02:54:22 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:54:22 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Thoughts about IDLE
In-Reply-To: <40ea4eb00812131650v696aff2ar3885d3ff086c25a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812130909t1ce89ed9odd40185a186d28ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<40ea4eb00812131650v696aff2ar3885d3ff086c25a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812131754h6252b237xf315b462c6e4f05b@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/13 michel paul <mpaul213 at gmail.com>:
> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 9:09 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What frustrates me in class though, is I'll get low on the projected
> screen, having entered a bunch of session variables, identified a lot
> of stuff, and then I'm sort of stuck to the lower edge, unable to wipe
> to the top and/or mouse blank command line to the top (drag
> operation).
>
> I have found it useful to resize the shell and a programming window so each
> occupies one half of the screen.  Above in the programming window is text I
> want to present, and below is the Shell waiting for interaction.

Does your shell let you get back to the top?

In IDLE, once I'm down at the bottom, I have no easy way to drag the
canvas upwards.

I want to make the bottom >>> (prompt) go way up high, where the back
row can see it better.

Here's a screen shot:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3105501071/sizes/o/

Kirby

From mpaul213 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 05:26:51 2008
From: mpaul213 at gmail.com (michel paul)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 20:26:51 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] synthetic division
Message-ID: <40ea4eb00812132026g61f0c6b9w776a14029e817994@mail.gmail.com>

On Friday we were studying synthetic substitution/division in Algebra 2.
After going through the algorithm and after showing through factoring why it
worked, I had them look at this code:

def evaluate(polynomial, x):
    value = 0
    for coefficient in polynomial:
        value = value*x + coefficient
    return value

*polynomial *is a list of coefficients.

This algorithm is identical to the factoring analysis I showed them.  To
then create the function 'divide' is a simple matter of returning a list of
coefficients rather than one final value.

This 'concept map' shows exactly the same thing as the diagram in our text,
but it would be even more accurate to initialize *value* as polynomial[0]
and to then make the for-loop 'for coefficient in polynomial[1:]', but I
thought that in an environment where programming in math classes is still
considered something alien, the indexing might cause some silly
grade-anxiety reactions.  How sad that this has to be an issue.

But I figure that for the kids that are interested, and there are some,
looking at indexing and splicing might be enticing.

This has been my experience - looking at math concepts I have long taken for
granted and thinking about how to express them in computational form as
interacting functions/classes has shed new light on my own understanding.  I
can't help think that this would be invaluable for education.

- Michel
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From stef.mientki at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 10:38:01 2008
From: stef.mientki at gmail.com (Stef Mientki)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:38:01 +0100
Subject: [Edu-sig] Thoughts about IDLE
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812130909t1ce89ed9odd40185a186d28ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812130909t1ce89ed9odd40185a186d28ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4944D3F9.8090606@gmail.com>

kirby urner wrote:
> Per very early in the edu-sig archive, I've always found IDLE both
> necessary and sufficient for most of my teaching needs, whereas in
> development I've used Vim (which I suck at), random editors and tools,
> less Eclipse than you might think, Wing.  However, for quick scripts,
> IDLE works on the job as well, especially in Akbar font.
>
> What frustrates me in class though, is I'll get low on the projected
> screen, having entered a bunch of session variables, identified a lot
> of stuff, and then I'm sort of stuck to the lower edge, unable to wipe
> to the top and/or mouse blank command line to the top (drag
> operation).
>
>   
I'm creating the editor / cmd-shell on the flight, just as I want it at 
that moment.
Integrating notes and code, as michel suggested is standard in my case,
I want to want step further, integrating instructions, help and web,
in the form of doc, xls, ppt, pdf, chm etc is very useful.
Here is an example of the simple editor + "super cmd-shell" + vpython
(sorry it's rather long, 10 minutes, 20 MB)

 http://mientki.ruhosting.nl/movies/vp1.html


cheers,
Stef


From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 17:53:20 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:53:20 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Thoughts about IDLE
In-Reply-To: <4944D3F9.8090606@gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812130909t1ce89ed9odd40185a186d28ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<4944D3F9.8090606@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812140853p69ada985pf6a1f50922c80eb3@mail.gmail.com>

Having watched the 20M video and enjoyed it (especially the ER part --
work in hospitals) I'm thinking this could roll in to my Python for
Teachers in March in Chicago.  I've always wanted to see VPython
treated that way, as one more panel in a set of panels.

Kirby

>
> I'm creating the editor / cmd-shell on the flight, just as I want it at that
> moment.
> Integrating notes and code, as michel suggested is standard in my case,
> I want to want step further, integrating instructions, help and web,
> in the form of doc, xls, ppt, pdf, chm etc is very useful.
> Here is an example of the simple editor + "super cmd-shell" + vpython
> (sorry it's rather long, 10 minutes, 20 MB)
>
> http://mientki.ruhosting.nl/movies/vp1.html
>
>
> cheers,
> Stef

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 18:03:08 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:03:08 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] computer algebra
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20812102027q465a5d12y6f4aab82aaef88d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20812102027q465a5d12y6f4aab82aaef88d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812140903l7b453bcap7018668f3df2be7c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:27 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:

<< SNIP >>

> Fortunately Python supports a way of overloading binary operators
> where it is sufficient if *one* of the operands knows how to deal with
> the other. So Fraction(3, 4) * 2j happily returns 1.5j. You don't have
> to teach Fraction about Matrix if you can teach Matrix about Fraction.
>

This is one I keep coming back to.

At the other end of the spectrum is thinking of * almost like an
object and trying to write class methods using Mul as a platform.  You
have to check:  is this a matrix by a vector? a Fraction by a floating
point?... and so on through the myriad types allowed to multiply
together (quite a long list).

In contrast, with OO, numbers (those things which multiply) became
more intelligent and swallowed their own methods, show up already fit
to multiply, don't need "operators" floating out in space, match
makers on steroids.  1 contains __mul__ inside of it, meets up with a
complex, and...  we get into left and right valency, i.e. operators
have directionality.

I think lots of experiments with this in the lab, and certainly fine
to do those somewhat demented things like make __mul__ mere
concatenation, otherwise oversimplify.  This goes with my segment on
"biotum", a sort of "hello world" from the OO world, where we make a
Biotum class with primitive methods.

The advent of 'Spore' has helped a lot I'd say.

Kirby

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 20:27:57 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:27:57 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Fwd: The 'Certified' Teacher Myth (long)
Message-ID: <f604188c0812141127i77260e3aw7d01f3ed493280c8@mail.gmail.com>

I'm forwarding this, enqueued with Math Forum moderators, as it gives
some background perspective of potential utility to edu-sig
subscribers, plus indirectly expresses my gratitude to Stef Mientki
for his promising project.

If you're embroiled in USA "math wars" at all and want to do
background reading on this thread, here's a link:
http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1869138&tstart=0

I'd recommend staying blissfully ignorant of a lot of it though, lest
you get caught up in dinosaur flavors of "should we allow calculators
in math class?" kinds of debates (nothing at all about computer
languages), angry mud slinging that's been going on for decades and
going nowhere (lots of energy sinks, time sucks, not worth your
attention).

You may wonder why I bother to comment then, on Michael's mud-slinging
(appended).  As I mentioned in a follow-up:

"""
I'll fix and upload to edu-sig, in case Math Forum management decides
not to archive publicly -- should go somewhere, world-readable, given
my marketing angle -- Grunch isn't Michael's to spin, at least not all
by himself.  I have my investments to protect.
"""

For those with no idea what "Grunch" means (esoteric!), here's another
Math Forum thread you might find edifying in this regard:

http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1866451&tstart=0

If you heard my talk at Chicago Pycon last year, or watched it on
YouTube or ShowMeDo, you know that I talk about Fuller a lot -- a part
of my (Quaker brand) futurism.

Kirby


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: The 'Certified' Teacher Myth
To: Michael Paul Goldenberg
Cc: math-teach at mathforum.org, Richard Tchen, Haim, Wayne Bishop


I haven't been following math-teach closely of late, don't think
spitting in anyone's face, Haim's included (a mask), is going to solve
the problems of Grunch being semi in control of world affairs, Grunch
being Fuller's psychological projection (into American literature) of
the phenomenon of wholesale globalization.

If you're at all curious about my focus these days, aside from K-mods
in the enneacontahedron (per geometry-pre-college, a different Math
Forum list), I'm getting input from my peers re my upcoming 'Python
for Teachers' in Chicago next spring.

In particular, I've been looking for ways to integrate the VPython
window, for spatial geometry, vectors and so on, with the shell and
editing environments.  Just yesterday, I learned of a breakthrough in
this regard thanks to Google's Summer of Code program, a way of
bringing strong coders into positions better able to benefit a larger
population.

Here's a screen shot of overlapping windows with VPython's one of them
(spatial geometry lesson):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3105638687/sizes/o/

Here's a screen shot of a new project-based IDE (integrated
development environment) with VPython just one more display panel,
surrounded by editing surfaces (modeling a hospital ER):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3105561953/sizes/o/

I've already informed my edu-sig friends (a list in Python Nation), of
my intent to showcase the latter as a part of my discussion, even if
only in slide format.

Certified teachers from the Chicago area are invited to this workshop,
but mostly we're pandering to private sector geeks, thinking once they
get out of high school, they'll go directly into corporate training
programs, a lot of 'em, bypassing college until later maybe.

Many will start in these programs even before finishing high school,
as a bridge to some future position.

Tuitions are really high right now, out of step with the ambient
culture, especially in light of how far behind the times your average
PhD has become (in just about any field you care to mention).  Silicon
Forest needs people, can't afford to sponsor these pipelines that no
longer work for us.

So as you can see, the whole thing about "certification" is kind of a
side issue.  In the private sector, we have our own way of designing a
meritocracy, aren't looking to teacher unions for direction, not our
culture.

Kirby Urner
grunch.net



On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Michael Paul Goldenberg wrote:

<< SNIP >>

>  As we prepare for what well may another world-wide depression thanks to the
> GRUNCH of the giants that Haim doesn't want to discuss here (we're supposed
> to believe that it's teachers' unions that got us where we are, I suppose),
> we should be spitting in the faces of people like Haim and their
> self-serving, utterly bankrupt views and policies.

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 21:45:11 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:45:11 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] more Mathy Python...
Message-ID: <f604188c0812141245u365f68bdt93d54bdaedc6023d@mail.gmail.com>

FYI...

http://www.tiac.net/~sw/2008/10/Hilbert/

(I like that they're called Hilbert *curves*)

Kirby

w/ thx to David Koski (geometer) for alerting me.

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 00:05:22 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:05:22 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] computer algebra
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812141505x699b19ddg36391876106c22a6@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:47 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:

<< SNIP >>

> fractions.Fraction, on the other hand, barfs on anything but integers,
> isn't trying to be all divisions to all possible types, isn't
> pretending this is Mathematica or a generic CAS.
>
> Note that I'm not criticizing fractions.py in any way, am so far quite
> happy with it.  I'm simply drawing attention to some fine points.
>

OK, now I'm going to criticize a little.

I think the more natural and useful choice would be to continue
threads right here on edu-sig, regarding a Rational Number type, not
just this Fraction type.

The problem with Fraction is it's not actually much more than the
notion of Ratio (how many times one fits in the other), whereas the
Rational Number concept fits neatly in the sequence:  N < W < Z < Q <
R < C, where < could be replaced with the "subset" symbol.  Those be
Natural, Whole (Natural + 0), Integers, Rationals, Reals, and Complex
respectively, except the Real type is quite problematic, is treated
with Floats, Decimals and generators (iterable).

The thing about Rationals is they're a field, closed under + and *,
and therefore - and / (because of field properties).  So a Rational is
able to eat other Rationals for breakfast i.e. (1/3) / (3/1) makes
plenty of sense, and all integers are really just rationals in
disguise i.e. 0 = 0/1, 1 = 1/1 etc.

If Fraction could eat Fraction type objects, then we could have
continued fractions more easily, have other fun.

The silver lining here is fractions.py was actual named that, and not
rationals.py, which means we still have a hole to fill, a more generic
class, yet not too generic, not open to complex or matrix arguments,
just to rationals, integers a subtype.

Kirby

From guido at python.org  Mon Dec 15 00:39:18 2008
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:39:18 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] computer algebra
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812141505x699b19ddg36391876106c22a6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812141505x699b19ddg36391876106c22a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20812141539m38a9e5d2j2b571e350f71da78@mail.gmail.com>

But fractions *can* eat fractions. Instead of Fraction(f1, f2) you
just write f1/f2. In general you should just stick to the latter, and
leave the Fraction() constructor for when the / operator would pick a
different type (as in 1/2, which becomes a float). You can also write
it as Fraction(1) / Fraction(2).

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)



On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 3:05 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:47 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> << SNIP >>
>
>> fractions.Fraction, on the other hand, barfs on anything but integers,
>> isn't trying to be all divisions to all possible types, isn't
>> pretending this is Mathematica or a generic CAS.
>>
>> Note that I'm not criticizing fractions.py in any way, am so far quite
>> happy with it.  I'm simply drawing attention to some fine points.
>>
>
> OK, now I'm going to criticize a little.
>
> I think the more natural and useful choice would be to continue
> threads right here on edu-sig, regarding a Rational Number type, not
> just this Fraction type.
>
> The problem with Fraction is it's not actually much more than the
> notion of Ratio (how many times one fits in the other), whereas the
> Rational Number concept fits neatly in the sequence:  N < W < Z < Q <
> R < C, where < could be replaced with the "subset" symbol.  Those be
> Natural, Whole (Natural + 0), Integers, Rationals, Reals, and Complex
> respectively, except the Real type is quite problematic, is treated
> with Floats, Decimals and generators (iterable).
>
> The thing about Rationals is they're a field, closed under + and *,
> and therefore - and / (because of field properties).  So a Rational is
> able to eat other Rationals for breakfast i.e. (1/3) / (3/1) makes
> plenty of sense, and all integers are really just rationals in
> disguise i.e. 0 = 0/1, 1 = 1/1 etc.
>
> If Fraction could eat Fraction type objects, then we could have
> continued fractions more easily, have other fun.
>
> The silver lining here is fractions.py was actual named that, and not
> rationals.py, which means we still have a hole to fill, a more generic
> class, yet not too generic, not open to complex or matrix arguments,
> just to rationals, integers a subtype.
>
> Kirby
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 01:05:36 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:05:36 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] computer algebra
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20812141539m38a9e5d2j2b571e350f71da78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812101847u21da4c73leb075c36af6bc6e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812141505x699b19ddg36391876106c22a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20812141539m38a9e5d2j2b571e350f71da78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812141605g14bce900r837af27e0e4c9d47@mail.gmail.com>

Ah so...

My focus on the constructor as a way to trigger the initial division
(complete with gcd), was blinding me to the role of the __div__
operator in gluing the things together.  I need to get back to those
continued fraction studies then, using my new understanding.

Thank you for opening my eyes Guido.

Kirby

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> But fractions *can* eat fractions. Instead of Fraction(f1, f2) you
> just write f1/f2. In general you should just stick to the latter, and
> leave the Fraction() constructor for when the / operator would pick a
> different type (as in 1/2, which becomes a float). You can also write
> it as Fraction(1) / Fraction(2).
>
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>

From echerlin at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 06:05:33 2008
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:05:33 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Fwd: The 'Certified' Teacher Myth (long)
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812141127i77260e3aw7d01f3ed493280c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812141127i77260e3aw7d01f3ed493280c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0812142105l5edbfab7t2d6657b4e6013d8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 11:27 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm forwarding this, enqueued with Math Forum moderators, as it gives
> some background perspective of potential utility to edu-sig
> subscribers, plus indirectly expresses my gratitude to Stef Mientki
> for his promising project.
>
> If you're embroiled in USA "math wars" at all and want to do
> background reading on this thread, here's a link:
> http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1869138&tstart=0
>
> I'd recommend staying blissfully ignorant of a lot of it though,

+1

> lest
> you get caught up in dinosaur flavors of "should we allow calculators
> in math class?" kinds of debates (nothing at all about computer
> languages), angry mud slinging that's been going on for decades and
> going nowhere (lots of energy sinks, time sucks, not worth your
> attention).

Now that we are embarked on creating interactive textbooks for the
OLPC XO project, (_not_ CAI-style, but more along the lines described
in Seymour Papert's book Mindstorms: Children, Computers, and Powerful
Ideas), all of those arguments are irrelevant.


> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Michael Paul Goldenberg wrote:
>
> << SNIP >>
>
>>  As we prepare for what well may another world-wide depression thanks to the
>> GRUNCH of the giants that Haim doesn't want to discuss here (we're supposed
>> to believe that it's teachers' unions that got us where we are, I suppose),
>> we should be spitting in the faces of people like Haim and their
>> self-serving, utterly bankrupt views and policies.
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

Plenty of people can be blamed for the current mess in education
worldwide. I have a better idea. Let's invent something that they
can't prevent infiltrating the system. Wait, we've done that. Well
then, let's get on with it.

"Living well is the best revenge."--George Herbert

"Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration."--Thomas Edison, who
was evidently an optimist. Really good ideas can take the rest of your
life to work out, or in the truly exceptional cases, the lives of
multitudes for centuries, even millennia to come.
-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai

From ccosse at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 07:04:14 2008
From: ccosse at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Charles_Coss=E9?=)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:04:14 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] fracgen.py
Message-ID: <fb87ba070812142204s30a12649l2bc1c09db452cd7c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

The recent discussion regarding fractions compelled me to dig-up a
fraction problem generating script I wrote a couple years ago and post
it in case anyone has use for it.  The purpose of the script is to
generate algebraic fraction problems.   It might also make a decent
programming assignment to come up with such an algorithm.  Just run it
and you'll get 100 good problems dumped to your screen.  Change the 2
parameters in the __main__ to adjust number generated and maximum
denominators to use.   I've never looked at Fraction.py, so no idea
how this compares or relates, but don't think there's any similarity.
Anyway, FWIW here it is (attached).

All the best to everyone,
Charlie

-- 
AsymptopiaSoftware|Software at theLimit
            http://www.asymptopia.org
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From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Mon Dec 15 07:16:54 2008
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:16:54 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] What is the Best Way to use Python in the Windows
	Command Line
In-Reply-To: <49444C74.1000201@gmail.com>
References: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
	<20081213154851.GS6495@tamarapatino.org>
	<832C3F0D-069C-47D9-AB15-504621211918@cs.depaul.edu>
	<49444C74.1000201@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F6320FD-9212-4323-87CE-14D6014E81A9@cs.depaul.edu>

micedit and editarea

Massimo

On Dec 13, 2008, at 5:59 PM, Stef Mientki wrote:

> Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
>> I do not know if this is helpful but the web2py windows distribution
>> includes portable python and does not require installation. You  
>> just type
>>
>>     web2py.exe -S  admin
>>
>> and you have a python shell or you can do
>>
>>     web2py.exe -S admin -R /path/to/yourfile.py
>>
>> It includes Tk all standard python libraries.
>> There are have some bonus features that students may find convenient
>> like browser based editor with syntax highlighting, wysiwyg editor  
>> for
>> HTML files and easy to use database API.
> What do you use as  the "browser based editor with syntax  
> highlighting"
> and the "wysiwyg editor for HTML files " ?
>
> thanks,
> Stef
>>
>> Massimo
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig


From bblais at bryant.edu  Mon Dec 15 12:03:52 2008
From: bblais at bryant.edu (Brian Blais)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:03:52 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] What is the Best Way to use Python in the Windows
	Command Line
In-Reply-To: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
References: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <7846C9C9-AE2B-4AE8-90D5-B7F1970DA657@bryant.edu>

On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:59 , csev wrote:

> Is there a way to use an icon and then start the icon an have the  
> current working directory (i.e. to open data files) be the same  
> directory as the Python file?  And then is there a way to get the  
> output to stop at the end and not disappear when the program finishes?

What I do is the following:

1) I install the enthought version of Python, which puts an icon  
called Pylab on the desktop.  This is short for ipython -pylab
2) I have the students make a work folder, and copy the Pylab  
shortcut to the folder
3) I have them change the "Start In" property of the icon
4) (if you don't want all the numerical stuff, then delete the -pylab  
option while you're in properties)

then you can use whatever text editor you want (I use SciTE, because  
it comes with EPD, but you have to change the default tab settings).   
The shortcut, when run, will pull up the ipython commandline.  then  
the students just type:

run myprog.py

whenever they want to run things.

It seems to work ok, and you don't have to muck with the path.


				bb
-- 
Brian Blais
bblais at bryant.edu
http://web.bryant.edu/~bblais



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From jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 15:06:32 2008
From: jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com (Jurgis Pralgauskis)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:06:32 +0200
Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)
Message-ID: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

it would make python more attractive,
if there would be possibility  to try it online
like ruby has http://tryruby.hobix.com

maybe this could be made with jython , http://code.google.com/p/epy/
or crunchy on GAE

how difficult it would be to have a secure thing,
for people to get interactive intro about python identation and list
manipulation magic :)
?

-- 
Jurgis Pralgauskis
tel: 8-616 77613;
jabber: jurgis at akl.lt; skype: dz0rdzas;
Don't worry, be happy and make things better ;)

From yusdi at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 15 16:56:17 2008
From: yusdi at hotmail.com (Yusdi Santoso)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:56:17 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)
In-Reply-To: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W38F0652AA31C102F365DEDBDF40@phx.gbl>


Hi Jurgis,
 
I actually started something similar in 2007: http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/users/santoso/Software.WebLab.html
My biggest hurdle was (as you correctly noticed) the lack of secure sandbox environment for Python. Even though my code would allow you to execute arbitrary Python code over the net, this is not something you want to do in untrusted environment.
 
I think the Sage project (http://www.sagemath.org/) is doing something quite similar, although in a much more complex way. I'm not familar enough with Sage to comment about its security, but I guess it must be ok since they have online demo.
 
Hope that helps
 
 
 
Yusdi
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:06:32 +0200> From: jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com> To: edu-sig at python.org> Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)> > Hello,> > it would make python more attractive,> if there would be possibility to try it online> like ruby has http://tryruby.hobix.com> > maybe this could be made with jython , http://code.google.com/p/epy/> or crunchy on GAE> > how difficult it would be to have a secure thing,> for people to get interactive intro about python identation and list> manipulation magic :)> ?> > -- > Jurgis Pralgauskis> tel: 8-616 77613;> jabber: jurgis at akl.lt; skype: dz0rdzas;> Don't worry, be happy and make things better ;)> _______________________________________________> Edu-sig mailing list> Edu-sig at python.org> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
_________________________________________________________________
You live life online. So we put Windows on the web. 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 18:08:34 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:08:34 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Fwd: The 'Certified' Teacher Myth (long)
In-Reply-To: <e574f6eb0812142105l5edbfab7t2d6657b4e6013d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812141127i77260e3aw7d01f3ed493280c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<e574f6eb0812142105l5edbfab7t2d6657b4e6013d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812150908k25f05cb3i71f1a659c5d994de@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 9:05 PM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com> wrote:

<< SNIP >>

>> lest
>> you get caught up in dinosaur flavors of "should we allow calculators
>> in math class?" kinds of debates (nothing at all about computer
>> languages), angry mud slinging that's been going on for decades and
>> going nowhere (lots of energy sinks, time sucks, not worth your
>> attention).
>
> Now that we are embarked on creating interactive textbooks for the
> OLPC XO project, (_not_ CAI-style, but more along the lines described
> in Seymour Papert's book Mindstorms: Children, Computers, and Powerful
> Ideas), all of those arguments are irrelevant.
>

Irrelevant in our circles certainly, but for many, the "calculator wars" have
become a way of life, a cottage industry.

Given MIT pushed for that "computers in the jungle" aesthetic (a marketing
gimmick, not saying ineffective), there're still very few USAers who even
know what an XO is.  As geeks, we forget that (I have one under my tree,
for symbolic value):

http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2008/12/snow.html

When I took mine to Fine Grind (csn.fg) recently, none of the very bright
people there had ever seen one (has nothing to do with IQ):

http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2008/11/posting-from-my-xo.html

How do we get the word to ordinary USAers about "life after calculators"?

I suggest more hype around Sugar as North Americans love sugar and
corn above all (corn syrup = the breakfast god).  Sugar is something of
a Python flagship as well, looks like an iPod (circular menus).  Why
nothing on the backs of cereal boxes then?  Not ready for prime time?

My suggestion is been more of those overseas schools, where overseas
might mean in Colorado, a 50-50 mix of native and imported students,
wanting diversity of experience, training to become diplomats maybe,
and sharing these new toyz.  Growing up as an expat much of the time,
I know the State Department is well aware of this model and could
implement it pronto as an alternative public school network, branded
as such (not just for "rich kids").

Here's a quick sketch of a blueprint, some details bleeped:

http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2008/08/new-kind-of-charter.html

Minus well-packaged curriculum segments, self schoolers tend to
reinvent too many wheels.  We think it's cute if they hit on an algorithm
for addition or multiplication (lots of constructivist cooing) but always
practicing for "after the nuclear winter" or whatever isn't really moving
us back from the brink.

We force kids into idiocy at gunpoint almost (lots of threats if you start
to act smart in some peer groups -- especially if you're a teacher with
a big dummy textbook you're expected to teach to (a kind of bullying)).

In my view, it's a matter of withholding heritage, with most schools
functioning as giant shut-off valves, their primary purpose being to
deny access.  On the bright side though, kids go home to the Internet
and YouTube, and those motivated to catch up, do so, morph into
geeks, and join us on the front lines, where we know what "XO" means.

Kirby

End notes:

>
>> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Michael Paul Goldenberg wrote:
>>

(I'm not a fan of MPG's writings -- too vitriolic, yet devoid of substance)

>> << SNIP >>
>>

Not my view of GRUNCH, nor am I expecting "depression":

>>>  As we prepare for what well may another world-wide depression thanks to the
>>> GRUNCH of the giants that Haim doesn't want to discuss here (we're supposed
>>> to believe that it's teachers' unions that got us where we are, I suppose),
>>> we should be spitting in the faces of people like Haim and their
>>> self-serving, utterly bankrupt views and policies.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Edu-sig mailing list
>> Edu-sig at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

From andre.roberge at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 18:34:20 2008
From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:34:20 -0400
Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)
In-Reply-To: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7528bcdd0812150934m3f6d3483q8894d97a31b8c6bd@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Jurgis Pralgauskis
<jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> it would make python more attractive,
> if there would be possibility  to try it online
> like ruby has http://tryruby.hobix.com
>
> maybe this could be made with jython , http://code.google.com/p/epy/
> or crunchy on GAE
>

I have started looking at doing this with Crunchy on GAE.  There are
some problems in terms of the strict cpu limits imposed by GAE which
prevents using Crunchy more or less "as is".  But I am hoping to have
a working prototype early in the new year.

Andr?

> how difficult it would be to have a secure thing,
> for people to get interactive intro about python identation and list
> manipulation magic :)
> ?
>
> --
> Jurgis Pralgauskis
> tel: 8-616 77613;
> jabber: jurgis at akl.lt; skype: dz0rdzas;
> Don't worry, be happy and make things better ;)
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 19:31:23 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:31:23 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)
In-Reply-To: <7528bcdd0812150934m3f6d3483q8894d97a31b8c6bd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812150934m3f6d3483q8894d97a31b8c6bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812151031o14fb66balae0f27e6bc82ee8@mail.gmail.com>

<rant>

Count me a skeptic that there's anything unattractive about Python
that's to blame for keeping it from wider use in school systems.

Once you go down that road, of soliciting off-the-cuff feedback,
you'll get endless nonsense about making it case insensitive, adding a
"schoolish math" division symbol, or in general making it more like
Mathematica, meaning superscripts, subscripts... and voila, no more
Python (I call it the disappearing snake trick).

I prefer counter-carping about those ugly computer-illiterate
notations, a typographer's nightmare (or job security depending how
you look at it): over-indulgence in single-symbol expressions;
obsession with lambda, sigma -- too clever by half, a way to
obfuscate, not friendly to children (deliberately -- going for that
imposing, austere look, trying to intimidate (very Springer-Verlag,
the opposite of O'Reilly's far friendlier 'Head First' series)).

Why many smart geeks drop pre- or even anti-computer "schoolish math"
like a hot potato is they realize it:

(a) doesn't execute (i.e. is dead on arrival, DOA) and

(b) is designed to pump up egos at the expense of readability, nothing
so sane as the Zen of Python at work.

</rant>

Kirby

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Andre Roberge <andre.roberge at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Jurgis Pralgauskis
> <jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> it would make python more attractive,
>> if there would be possibility  to try it online
>> like ruby has http://tryruby.hobix.com
>>
>> maybe this could be made with jython , http://code.google.com/p/epy/
>> or crunchy on GAE

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 20:17:49 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:17:49 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812151031o14fb66balae0f27e6bc82ee8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812150934m3f6d3483q8894d97a31b8c6bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812151031o14fb66balae0f27e6bc82ee8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812151117pca737d1i587cbdfd55428904@mail.gmail.com>

Just to be less ranty, as a math teacher (albeit a gnu one), I share
an investment in matrix and vector notation, sigma notation, Riemann
sum notation and all the rest of it (set notation, trig notation -- in
which the diagrams are almost glyphic, a bridge to a more right
brained approach, post-Bourbaki...), however I think what Python
brings to the table is precisely it's *differences* i.e. it's not even
pretending to emulate these older language games (in contrast to
Mathematica, which very much is (MathCad also, the one I use more,
Maple in the background)).

Sigma notation is a do-loop.  Indefinite (aka infinite) series are
likewise generators -- go as far as you like, in the direction of
great precision.  Yes, computers have memory limits but so do
meatspace mathematicians, who just right dot dot dot (...) when their
hands get tired.

Here's an ancient essay at my website giving the flavor of the role I
favor for Python:
http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/overcome.html

Plus this one about calculus:
http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/catenary.html

I wrote those a long time ago, but I'm still looking at a lot of the
same tools in today's classroom:  a ray tracer, a real time graphics
engine, a well stocked library of math modules, lots of fun IDEs.  The
only really big change is the advent of Py3k and its more
Unicode-aware design.  Plus the new IDEs are looking pretty
revolutionary.

Kirby
OCN.4d

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:31 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
> <rant>
>
> Count me a skeptic that there's anything unattractive about Python
> that's to blame for keeping it from wider use in school systems.
>
> Once you go down that road, of soliciting off-the-cuff feedback,
> you'll get endless nonsense about making it case insensitive, adding a
> "schoolish math" division symbol, or in general making it more like
> Mathematica, meaning superscripts, subscripts... and voila, no more
> Python (I call it the disappearing snake trick).
>
> I prefer counter-carping about those ugly computer-illiterate
> notations, a typographer's nightmare (or job security depending how
> you look at it): over-indulgence in single-symbol expressions;
> obsession with lambda, sigma -- too clever by half, a way to
> obfuscate, not friendly to children (deliberately -- going for that
> imposing, austere look, trying to intimidate (very Springer-Verlag,
> the opposite of O'Reilly's far friendlier 'Head First' series)).
>
> Why many smart geeks drop pre- or even anti-computer "schoolish math"
> like a hot potato is they realize it:
>
> (a) doesn't execute (i.e. is dead on arrival, DOA) and
>
> (b) is designed to pump up egos at the expense of readability, nothing
> so sane as the Zen of Python at work.
>
> </rant>
>
> Kirby
>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Andre Roberge <andre.roberge at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Jurgis Pralgauskis
>> <jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> it would make python more attractive,
>>> if there would be possibility  to try it online
>>> like ruby has http://tryruby.hobix.com
>>>
>>> maybe this could be made with jython , http://code.google.com/p/epy/
>>> or crunchy on GAE
>

From andre.roberge at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 22:08:07 2008
From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:08:07 -0400
Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812151031o14fb66balae0f27e6bc82ee8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812150934m3f6d3483q8894d97a31b8c6bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812151031o14fb66balae0f27e6bc82ee8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7528bcdd0812151308o5c354e6ep8112675cb46bd4d1@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 2:31 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
> <rant>
>
> Count me a skeptic that there's anything unattractive about Python
> that's to blame for keeping it from wider use in school systems.

[SNIP]

> </rant>
>
> Kirby

Hmm, I don't see anything in the original post that refer to "wider
use in school systems" or, indeed, any reference to schools at all.

I think the original poster made a perfectly sensible observation, one
that I have read many times in different settings.

It is a fact that the hurdle to try Ruby via  http://tryruby.hobix.com
is much lower than having to download and install Python.

There are a couple of places where one can do something similar online
(http://www.trypython.org/ , if you have silverlight installed on your
computer) (http://datamech.com/devan/trypython/trypython.py) but none
is done in as an attractive way as the tryruby site is.  I think it is
a valid goal to try and remedy this situation - something I am (just
like Michael Foord and others) trying to address.

<usenet etiquette rant>
And I don't understand why the quoted message appeared to be a reply
to what I wrote when not a single line of quoted text was something I
wrote.
</usenet etiquette rant>

Andr?

>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Andre Roberge <andre.roberge at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Jurgis Pralgauskis
>> <jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> it would make python more attractive,
>>> if there would be possibility  to try it online
>>> like ruby has http://tryruby.hobix.com
>>>
>>> maybe this could be made with jython , http://code.google.com/p/epy/
>>> or crunchy on GAE
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 22:47:42 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:47:42 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)
In-Reply-To: <7528bcdd0812151308o5c354e6ep8112675cb46bd4d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812150934m3f6d3483q8894d97a31b8c6bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812151031o14fb66balae0f27e6bc82ee8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812151308o5c354e6ep8112675cb46bd4d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812151347y517c9841t7ae91d795bc5f569@mail.gmail.com>

> <usenet etiquette rant>
> And I don't understand why the quoted message appeared to be a reply
> to what I wrote when not a single line of quoted text was something I
> wrote.
> </usenet etiquette rant>
>
> Andr?

My apologies for generating such confusion.

This is what I was ranting about, not something you wrote:

>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Jurgis Pralgauskis
>>> <jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> it would make python more attractive,

And I was not disagreeing with Jurgis really, or you, i.e. anything we
might do to keep up with Ruby might be worth doing, like having
serious OpenGL as a part of the "batteries included".

But I've always argued VPython was fine off to the side, even if a
nightmare to install, don't need to bloat the standard library, plus
we have PIL for the static stuff.

These are the real reasons Ruby is exciting (Haskell as well):
because how simple computer graphics become, with so little code.
Like in Mathematica, you can interactively pass a photograph through
the shell, as an argument to functions, and get Photoshop-like
transforms, special effects.  That's "coolio".

Praise Allah this is nothing like the bad old days with Basic and
Pascal (or even Logo for that matter -- not that simple matter to code
Mandelbrots with turtles, plus it's not as good with data structures,
never had industrial strength potential, more a toy, a very good one).

In terms of superseding the hegemony and authority of the "calculator
warrior" generation, I'm all for using Ruby if that helps.  Anything
to spare another generation from being left out of the loop, when it
comes to globally marketable skills.

Ruby looks great on a resume, "know how to use a TI" is far less interesting.

There's nothing wrong with Python, in any case, as a language.

The Ruby community is very good at hype (on top of having a
substantial language), but so is this one.

Kirby

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 08:16:40 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:16:40 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] music:piano :: math:laptop ?
Message-ID: <f604188c0812152316p29e33d03sf4bf635b87e28d0e@mail.gmail.com>

Edward Cherlin's insistent pointing to the XO is helping turn some
wheels on my end...

Way cool that Gibson Guitar was a sponsor of OSCON that time, shows
how geeks are being seen from a Nashville angle:  have laptop will
travel, the solo musician model, except we also form bands.  Really,
so many analogies, between musicians and coders.

What calculators, slide rules before 'em, have gotten us used to, is
this idea that mathematics comes with devices, gizmos, more than just
chalk or pencil.  We need machinery! (a slide rule has moving parts,
c'mon).

What's interesting is how reluctant the marketing groups have been, to
link their brands to something so Buck Rogers and futuristic as the
XO, or even to the basic idea of giving kids laptops.

It has all the elements:  breakthrough technologies, hero developers
(many genders and ethnicities), adorable children, cool interface...
you'd think the cereal companies would be all over it, giving kids
something to marvel at while crunching on wholesome grains.

How about we start a campaign among tweens and teens called "Where's
My Laptop?"

Let's encourage that sense of entitlement we get listening to R0ml,
who says gnu math, CP4E, computer literacy (lots of words for it) is
what in the old days would be called "basic rhetoric".

To participate in civic life, you needed to know how to structure an
argument, defend a position.  Well, you still need those skills, but
you also need that laptop.  How else do you expect to patch in,
participate in the life of democracy.

What do we want?  Laptop!  When do we want it?  Now!

Kirby

From echerlin at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 09:15:12 2008
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:15:12 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] music:piano :: math:laptop ?
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812152316p29e33d03sf4bf635b87e28d0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812152316p29e33d03sf4bf635b87e28d0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0812160015h30c14409qdcfd95b142580465@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:16 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
> Edward Cherlin's insistent pointing to the XO is helping turn some
> wheels on my end...

It doesn't actually have to be an XO. We have projects forming up to
use Sugar on a Stick with diskless computers. That will allow us to
take almost all of the discards from the computer refurbishing
centers.

> Way cool that Gibson Guitar was a sponsor of OSCON that time, shows
> how geeks are being seen from a Nashville angle:  have laptop will
> travel, the solo musician model, except we also form bands.  Really,
> so many analogies, between musicians and coders.

Also math and science.

> What calculators, slide rules before 'em, have gotten us used to, is
> this idea that mathematics comes with devices, gizmos, more than just
> chalk or pencil.  We need machinery! (a slide rule has moving parts,
> c'mon).
>
> What's interesting is how reluctant the marketing groups have been, to
> link their brands to something so Buck Rogers and futuristic as the
> XO, or even to the basic idea of giving kids laptops.
>
> It has all the elements:  breakthrough technologies, hero developers
> (many genders and ethnicities), adorable children, cool interface...
> you'd think the cereal companies would be all over it, giving kids
> something to marvel at while crunching on wholesome grains.

We're definitely getting uptake among basketball, football, and soccer players.

> How about we start a campaign among tweens and teens called "Where's
> My Laptop?"

I wanted to offer child-size t-shirts along with Give One Get One, for
the point where orders outstrip production. Then you could buy your
grandchild or whomever a shirt saying "Grandma bought me an XO for
Christmas, but all I have so far is this funny t-shirt." And then
offer transfers with the late laptops, for crossing out the complaint
and saying, "I got it! I got it!"

> Let's encourage that sense of entitlement we get listening to R0ml,
> who says gnu math, CP4E, computer literacy (lots of words for it) is
> what in the old days would be called "basic rhetoric".
>
> To participate in civic life, you needed to know how to structure an
> argument, defend a position.  Well, you still need those skills, but
> you also need that laptop.  How else do you expect to patch in,
> participate in the life of democracy.

Not just that. You have to have a story, like Walt Whitman or Mark
Twain or Carl Sandburg telling Americans who they are. So far we have
a hope. But there are stories. Doug Engelbart's hero story leading up
to The Mother of All Demos, Alan Kay and Seymour Papert as the
prophets in the wilderness, and a few others.

> What do we want?  Laptop!  When do we want it?  Now!

I don't think that this will be a matter of defiant public
demonstrations. My story (and I'm sticking to it) is that Sugar's
virtues can sneak into the schools where there isn't even a crack in
the doors, unnoticed until after they have taken over, and that there
will be no way to undo the changes, because they make students,
teachers, and parents happier and more productive.

> Kirby
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig


-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai

From bert at freudenbergs.de  Tue Dec 16 10:35:20 2008
From: bert at freudenbergs.de (Bert Freudenberg)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:35:20 +0100
Subject: [Edu-sig] music:piano :: math:laptop ?
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812152316p29e33d03sf4bf635b87e28d0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812152316p29e33d03sf4bf635b87e28d0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9D769510-1757-45C1-86E5-8EDAFF75F442@freudenbergs.de>

Not only math, but a computer can even be seen as an instrument whose  
music is ideas (*).

On 16.12.2008, at 08:16, kirby urner wrote:

> Edward Cherlin's insistent pointing to the XO is helping turn some
> wheels on my end...
>
> Way cool that Gibson Guitar was a sponsor of OSCON that time, shows
> how geeks are being seen from a Nashville angle:  have laptop will
> travel, the solo musician model, except we also form bands.  Really,
> so many analogies, between musicians and coders.
>
> What calculators, slide rules before 'em, have gotten us used to, is
> this idea that mathematics comes with devices, gizmos, more than just
> chalk or pencil.  We need machinery! (a slide rule has moving parts,
> c'mon).
>
> What's interesting is how reluctant the marketing groups have been, to
> link their brands to something so Buck Rogers and futuristic as the
> XO, or even to the basic idea of giving kids laptops.
>
> It has all the elements:  breakthrough technologies, hero developers
> (many genders and ethnicities), adorable children, cool interface...
> you'd think the cereal companies would be all over it, giving kids
> something to marvel at while crunching on wholesome grains.
>
> How about we start a campaign among tweens and teens called "Where's
> My Laptop?"
>
> Let's encourage that sense of entitlement we get listening to R0ml,
> who says gnu math, CP4E, computer literacy (lots of words for it) is
> what in the old days would be called "basic rhetoric".
>
> To participate in civic life, you needed to know how to structure an
> argument, defend a position.  Well, you still need those skills, but
> you also need that laptop.  How else do you expect to patch in,
> participate in the life of democracy.
>
> What do we want?  Laptop!  When do we want it?  Now!


While I certainly agree, getting laptops to kids is only half the  
picture, and both the easier and worse half at that. We need to  
remember, and continue to point out, that the music is not in the  
piano (*).

This is preaching to the choir on this list of course, but the folks  
seeing a major distraction in computers as typically used by kids have  
a major point, too. And that distraction is much more seductive than  
the distraction a lonesome piano provides.

So I'd like to see such a campaign explicitly point out what  
distinguishes the XO from any other laptop, by making a computer  
specifically for learning rather than for profit, by having it run  
tinkerable software (yay to Python for that), etc. It's not just the  
ingenious industrial design, but the ideas it embodies.

(*) http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=5

- Bert -


From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 18:10:29 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:10:29 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] music:piano :: math:laptop ?
In-Reply-To: <e574f6eb0812160015h30c14409qdcfd95b142580465@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f604188c0812152316p29e33d03sf4bf635b87e28d0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<e574f6eb0812160015h30c14409qdcfd95b142580465@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812160910m5fbdc86eqdd23818cc6ac14dd@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:15 AM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:16 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Edward Cherlin's insistent pointing to the XO is helping turn some
>> wheels on my end...
>
> It doesn't actually have to be an XO. We have projects forming up to
> use Sugar on a Stick with diskless computers. That will allow us to
> take almost all of the discards from the computer refurbishing
> centers.

Yes, I'm glad you point that out.

My agenda is closer to providing more opportunities to eyeball and
tweak open source code in a math learning context, with emphasis on OO
and agile languages, with plenty of eye candy (e.g. spatial geometry
-- includes the flat stuff, with camera position off the plane,
Euclidean axioms OK though not exclusively (shudder)).

But then what I mean by "math learning context" isn't so 1900s, i.e.
includes a lot of what we might call "home economics" (attention to
calories, joules, energy budgets -- lots of subclassing of
DwellingMachine parent class, simulating with Sims) and even aspects
of "PE" (physical education), i.e. outdoor training in GPS (lat/long,
spherical trig), use of "twitch games" (for credit) to learn
multiplication tables, periodic table etc.

In principle, such forward-thinking curriculum could show up Baghdad
or Dubai long before UKers/USAers get their act together, given
domestic resistance to positive futurism among Anglos, obsession with
doomy-gloomy (something about the psychology, insufficient antibodies
to apocalyptic memes maybe).

>> Way cool that Gibson Guitar was a sponsor of OSCON that time, shows
>> how geeks are being seen from a Nashville angle:  have laptop will
>> travel, the solo musician model, except we also form bands.  Really,
>> so many analogies, between musicians and coders.
>
> Also math and science.
>

I need to think of musical analogies in the context of my "no solo
coders" precept, as individuals have that ability to be brilliant,
like when they say "take it away, sam" or something ("do it charlie").

You want to leave room for epiphanies, flights of fancy.

But you also need to anchor that in community....  just stuff I think
about at work (large bureaucracy, too easy for mediocre VB and Java
programmers to become indispensable by obfuscating what they do for a
living).

> We're definitely getting uptake among basketball, football, and soccer players.
>

I'm interested in what you mean by that.

>> How about we start a campaign among tweens and teens called "Where's
>> My Laptop?"
>
> I wanted to offer child-size t-shirts along with Give One Get One, for
> the point where orders outstrip production. Then you could buy your
> grandchild or whomever a shirt saying "Grandma bought me an XO for
> Christmas, but all I have so far is this funny t-shirt." And then
> offer transfers with the late laptops, for crossing out the complaint
> and saying, "I got it! I got it!"

G1G1 was an interesting campaign, plus I'm supportive of using
T-shirts to advance causes, csn.cto Nirel (metahead) a role model in
this regard:

http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2008/12/bear-booty.html

Jody is csn.cfo:

http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2008/11/posting-from-my-xo.html

>
>> Let's encourage that sense of entitlement we get listening to R0ml,
>> who says gnu math, CP4E, computer literacy (lots of words for it) is
>> what in the old days would be called "basic rhetoric".
>>
>> To participate in civic life, you needed to know how to structure an
>> argument, defend a position.  Well, you still need those skills, but
>> you also need that laptop.  How else do you expect to patch in,
>> participate in the life of democracy.
>
> Not just that. You have to have a story, like Walt Whitman or Mark
> Twain or Carl Sandburg telling Americans who they are. So far we have
> a hope. But there are stories. Doug Engelbart's hero story leading up
> to The Mother of All Demos, Alan Kay and Seymour Papert as the
> prophets in the wilderness, and a few others.
>

Yes, storytelling is critical, I agree.

Whereas the rhetoric needs to be inclusive, in terms of inspiring
folks to take action, there's nothing like a working demo that's also
futuristic.

Whereas "working demo" may conjure images of individuals laptops or
applications, I'm more thinking in terms of working communities, maybe
a few hundred people, showcasing what "could be" for others, using a
kind of reality television (well edited) to get the word out.

This is my Project Earthala in a nutshell.  We've done some location scouting.

http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2006/01/location-scouting.html

>> What do we want?  Laptop!  When do we want it?  Now!
>
> I don't think that this will be a matter of defiant public
> demonstrations. My story (and I'm sticking to it) is that Sugar's
> virtues can sneak into the schools where there isn't even a crack in
> the doors, unnoticed until after they have taken over, and that there
> will be no way to undo the changes, because they make students,
> teachers, and parents happier and more productive.
>

OK, sounds like a plan.

My plan is a little different (it's not either/or), which is to
continue building indigenous coding capabilities within our Silicon
Forest, including through Saturday Academy and some of the public
schools (including charter -- all schools start with a charter of some
kind so "charter school" really just means "more recently established
school" in translation).

However, there's lots we might do in the private sector for profit,
including providing more curriculum through coffee bar and casino
outlets (thinking more of we adults all of a sudden).

That's not quite the same kind of programming (usually), is more
commercial in flavor (Jack Daniels commercial), however the spatial
geometry I'm working with (per rbf.py) brings a lot of bright,
positive, futuristic content to the screen, be that an XO or something
more suitable for older people, maybe no longer "in school" per se,
but still frequenting educational institutions of various kinds.

http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2008/11/touring-facilities-2.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3105638289/

Kirby

From aharrin at luc.edu  Thu Dec 18 02:08:42 2008
From: aharrin at luc.edu (Andrew Harrington)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:08:42 -0600
Subject: [Edu-sig] What is the Best Way to use Python in the Windows
	Command Line
In-Reply-To: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
References: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <fc87cd880812171708q7f09c579va9cdcca59a442dc0@mail.gmail.com>

Several options, Charles.

If they typically work from a particular directory, you can have them copy
into that directory a batch file like py.cmd:

path =
%path%;c:\python26;c:\python26\Scripts;c:\python26\tools\scripts;C:\Python26\Lib\idlelib
start "Python Enabled Command Window"


Double clicking on it starts a console window that has Python in the path,
and any further console window you open from within it with the start
command inherit the same path.

You can omit the idlelib part if you like.

If you want the Python directories in the path generally, without diddling
with the control panel, and if your students are already downloading a few
files of yours, you might include pathman.exe from Microsoft's freely
downloadable "Windows Resource Kit" plus another batch file for them to
double click on:

add26.cmd:

pathman /au C:\Python26;c:\python26\tools\scripts;c:\python26\scripts


This changes the global path when you open a console window in the future.

If you have both 2.6 and 3.0 installed and want to go back and forth between
having them as defaults, you can have a batch file like the following and a
similar one to do the reverse.

default26.cmd:

ftype Python.CompiledFile="C:\Python26\python.exe" "%%1" %%*
ftype Python.File="C:\Python26\python.exe" "%%1" %%*
ftype Python.NoConFile="C:\Python26\pythonw.exe" "%%1" %%*
pathman /rs C:\Python30;c:\python30\tools\scripts;c:\python30\scripts
pathman /as C:\Python26;c:\python26\tools\scripts;c:\python26\scripts


The first three lines make the right behavior when selecting a file in the
GUI  Windows directory browser.
The /rs and /as in the pathman calls refer to the system path.  If for some
reason you are only manipulating the user path, use /ru and /au.

Andy Harrington


On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 8:59 AM, csev <csev at umich.edu> wrote:

> I teach a number of classes at the University of Michigan that are about
> Python and that use Python.    We have gone from no Python classes last year
> to five classes and four teachers that teach Python at UM.  We share intro
> documentation on how to install and set up the environment.
>
> One thing that really bugs me is that the WIndows Python installer does not
> add itself to the Path automatically.
>
> Since I insist that students can be allowed to use Mac's or PCs - I try to
> create a similar environment for both and the command line is the lowest
> common denominator.
>
> I end up publishing detailed documents and screen casts to get python into
> your Windows path.  It works but it is not where I want students energy
> focused in the first week of class.
>
> I am wondering if there is another way.
>
> I generally do not like IDLE - it uses a socket which can get messed up,
> bugs in the student's code seem to mess up the IDE, when a program needs to
> open a data file - it is hard to force IDLE into a known directory.
>
> Is there a way to use an icon and then start the icon an have the current
> working directory (i.e. to open data files) be the same directory as the
> Python file?  And then is there a way to get the output to stop at the end
> and not disappear when the program finishes?
>
> I do not like solutions which include adding code to the student programs
> to do things like pause before terminating or setting the current working
> directory. The students have enough trouble figuring out the 20 lines of
> code that matter let alone 5-6 lines of obtuse code to set up the
> environment.
>
> I can continue to teach them how to set the PATH variable in Windows - if
> anyone on this list has a suggestion - I would much appreciate it.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Charles Severance
> University of Michigan
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>



-- 
Andrew N. Harrington
 Director of Academic Programs
 Computer Science Department
 Loyola University Chicago
 512B Lewis Towers (office)
 Snail mail to Lewis Towers 416
 820 North Michigan Avenue
 Chicago, Illinois 60611

http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
Phone: 312-915-7982
Fax:    312-915-7998
gdp at cs.luc.edu for graduate administration
upd at cs.luc.edu for undergrad administration
aharrin at luc.edu as professor
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From macquigg at ece.arizona.edu  Fri Dec 19 03:18:50 2008
From: macquigg at ece.arizona.edu (David MacQuigg)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:18:50 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] What is the Best Way to use Python in the Windows
 Command Line
In-Reply-To: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20081218182802.02a563b0@mail.ece.arizona.edu>

At 09:59 AM 12/13/2008 -0500, csev wrote:

>I generally do not like IDLE - it uses a socket which can get messed  
>up, bugs in the student's code seem to mess up the IDE, when a program  
>needs to open a data file - it is hard to force IDLE into a known  
>directory.

In Windows, drag the IDLE icon from the Start menu to your working directory.  That creates a shortcut.  Right click on the shortcut, and delete the "Start In" directory.  Repeat for every directory you wish to make a working directory.

Now when you click on one of those shortcuts, it starts IDLE with the current working directory prepended to the default sys.path.

As for the "socket" problem, I think you are referring to the "dueling event loops" problem.  If your program has an event loop involving Tkinter, your can't run it from IDLE, which also uses Tkinter.  What works nicely for me, is to do all my editing in the nice environment provided by IDLE, but run the program from a separate command window.  I also drag a command window shortcut to every directory where I need this strategy.

There is a good explanation of setup in John Zelle's Appendix B.

I know there are better IDE's available, but I keep coming back to IDLE.  It does what I need without a lot of clutter.

-- Dave



From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 05:04:06 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:04:06 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] What is the Best Way to use Python in the Windows
	Command Line
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20081218182802.02a563b0@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <F44B6F47-07E9-49F7-9DF2-FBA286ADA578@umich.edu>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20081218182802.02a563b0@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812182004h646ffebfo7ad631d3c9e96acc@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 6:18 PM, David MacQuigg
<macquigg at ece.arizona.edu> wrote:
> At 09:59 AM 12/13/2008 -0500, csev wrote:
>
>>I generally do not like IDLE - it uses a socket which can get messed
>>up, bugs in the student's code seem to mess up the IDE, when a program
>>needs to open a data file - it is hard to force IDLE into a known
>>directory.

Path issues are endemic to computer world, but since filesystems are
trees and trees are mathy data structures...

Seems schoolish math should have more talk of trees, including DOM.

I know path issues in Java have resulted in some hair tearing in
corporate cube farms, lots of premature baldness probably.

<< GOOD ADVICE >>

> I know there are better IDE's available, but I keep coming back to IDLE.  It does what I need without a lot of clutter.
>
> -- Dave

Yeah, ditto.  So convenient, a great battery included.

At the very least I want my editing canvas able to show not-Latin-1
characters, but that's almost any GUI editor these days, including a
lowly Ubuntu terminal window running a Python shell.

Here I'm providing some SQL-related math-oriented scaffolding for
computer algebra students (probably redundant to call it that, might
shorten to just algebra i.e. puzzle-solving algorithmic stuff aka gnu
math...).

http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/django_math.txt  (also introduces regexps)

Related screen shots:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3118999641/  ( note url: mvp
= most valuable player )

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3119826690/sizes/o/  ( note
url:  .../mathy/trig/sin?angle=30 )

We might spend up to three weeks on something like this in the
envisioned charters, e.g. tecc-alaska.org .

Kirby

From warren.sande at rogers.com  Fri Dec 19 18:50:39 2008
From: warren.sande at rogers.com (Warren Sande)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:50:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Edu-sig] Relevance of education
Message-ID: <801483.41632.qm@web88106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

One of my favourite web comics, XKCD, has a great one today:

http://www.xkcd.com/519/

(You could, of course, substitute Python for Perl...)

The previous one on flowcharts was a gem, too.


Warren Sande
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 19:25:36 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:25:36 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Relevance of education
In-Reply-To: <801483.41632.qm@web88106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <801483.41632.qm@web88106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812191025q5ee9af32ob896e8b8b39d50e3@mail.gmail.com>

Perfect!

I kneaded it in to make more of my Math Makeover propaganda (PR <--
backwards R).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3227/3121058142_00debdf421_o.png

Another campaign that could use it:  ~M!

(~M! stands for "not math!", or "math, not!" i.e. whatever this
computer algebra is called, we might wanna be learning that instead
(hey, it includes trig, history, whatever else we really need...)).

http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2008/06/scholars-in-summer.html

Kirby


2008/12/19 Warren Sande <warren.sande at rogers.com>:
> One of my favourite web comics, XKCD, has a great one today:
>
> http://www.xkcd.com/519/
>
> (You could, of course, substitute Python for Perl...)
>
> The previous one on flowcharts was a gem, too.
>
>
> Warren Sande
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>

From echerlin at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 21:26:05 2008
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:26:05 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Relevance of education
In-Reply-To: <801483.41632.qm@web88106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <801483.41632.qm@web88106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0812191226w6aba49b5l5333325387ba733b@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/19 Warren Sande <warren.sande at rogers.com>:
> One of my favourite web comics, XKCD, has a great one today:
>
> http://www.xkcd.com/519/

+1

I sent the link to some friend yesterday.

> (You could, of course, substitute Python for Perl...)

Instead of Perl in 11th grade, iconic Turtle Art in Kindergarten! No
text, no syntax errors.

> The previous one on flowcharts was a gem, too.

Mine is an O'Doul's.

> Warren Sande

-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 20:17:37 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 11:17:37 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)
In-Reply-To: <34f4097d0812200021t4d3e049bj11091df110d60a74@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812150934m3f6d3483q8894d97a31b8c6bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812151031o14fb66balae0f27e6bc82ee8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812151308o5c354e6ep8112675cb46bd4d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812151347y517c9841t7ae91d795bc5f569@mail.gmail.com>
	<34f4097d0812200021t4d3e049bj11091df110d60a74@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812201117i4649582cu8da880d57d371a55@mail.gmail.com>

try ruby! is pretty enticing, I agree, great use of AJAX to refresh
the cue cards at bottom.  Might be a fun Django project (I assume this
is Rails?).

I rarely have the challenge to initiate an interest in Python, as by
the time students have entered my class, studies the class
description, they've made up their minds.  Some of them have already
checked it out or used it in other classes.

Here's my current course description for Spring (written by Gail, other staff):

====
Computer Animation Programming

Supercharge your programming skills as you learn the software Star
Wars animators, Google engineers, and game designers use to make their
projects a success!

You will develop your Python skills using simple vector-based geometry
in an object-oriented approach. You'll get hands-on experience with
POV-Ray, a full-featured ray tracer that can create stunning
photo-realistic computer-generated images and animations and
experiment in VPython, a real-time game-like environment.

Other topics include data structures, classes and objects, control
statements, and reading and writing files.
====

I also don't work with children under 15 for the most part, and these
days am lucky to see anyone under 25 (I'm not a full time classroom
teacher, just venture there from my private sector perch in the
private sector).

I should remember my limited experience, as a former high school math
teacher in Jersey City, as an application developer.  I am not a
preschool specialist or administrator, although I did at one time
evaluate products aimed at this market for McGraw-Hill (a long time
ago).

Kirby Urner
@ Fine Grind (CFN)
Portland, Oregon

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Jurgis Pralgauskis
<jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com> wrote:
> also would be a good to have interactive tutorial, which would
> comunicate with user/learner in similar manner as tryruby... or maybe
> more advanced chatbot..
>
> import intro
> or  learn, teachmeintro
>
> maybe smb knows of similar initiatives  ?
> and which text tutorial would you propose?
> I'd like it to be short kind of python in 5/10 minutes:
> http://www.poromenos.org/tutorials/python
> http://jamwt.com/misc/pyten.txt

From sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au  Sun Dec 21 05:42:56 2008
From: sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au (Steven Bird)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:42:56 +1100
Subject: [Edu-sig] Python and Linguistics
Message-ID: <97e4e62e0812202042l74885394idd7bfc3ce7f88e13@mail.gmail.com>

The Natural Language Toolkit is a Python library supporting the
linguistic analysis of text.  It comes with an online book that
teaches Python, Linguistics and Natural Language Processing.  It
includes material that is suitable for secondary, undergraduate, and
graduate levels.  Version 0.9.7 has just been released, and is
available at http://www.nltk.org/

-Steven Bird
http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/

From mpaul213 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 04:01:26 2008
From: mpaul213 at gmail.com (michel paul)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:01:26 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
	Science, Math Education
Message-ID: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/obama-education

"Computing education benefits all students, not just those interested in
pursuing computer science or information technology careers," said Bobby
Schnabel, chair of ACM's Education Policy Committee
(EPC)<http://www.acm.org/public-policy/education-policy-committee>.


Yes we can!  Yes we can!  Yes we can!

- Michel
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 22:05:54 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:05:54 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
	Science, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812241305gc31b32crffc90003222229bd@mail.gmail.com>

Very timely Michel, excellent tracking.

I worked a juicy quote into my blog that very day:

http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2008/12/more-musings.html

Given Portland, I'm needing to "sell Python" in connection with GIS
topics (PostGIS, ESRI... Ecotrust), i.e. the ambient culture is really
into urban studies, planning as a discipline.  This is pretty easy to
do though, i.e. Python has a niche in these realms.  Plus there's a
lot of good geometry tie-ins, which helps my curriculum gain traction.

As I was just writing to CFO yesterday:

"""
There's this company Immersive Media that makes these interesting
recordings using 11 cameras on a post (dodecacam).  They mount these
on top of cars and drive them around cities, recording street views,
maybe you've seen one (I have).  Some months ago, a professor from the
University of Rochester, former student at Reed, made a pilgrimage
back to Portland, visited me, and took me to a meeting with the CTO of
this company.
"""

Then I sent her a link to this blog post:
http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2008/12/google-street-view.html
(dodecacams in action)

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4232286.html

Another window into our Silicon Forest, one of many,

Kirby

PS:  the thing with my DirecTV is this tree that shares a corner with
my satellite dish:  under the snow's weight, it has drooped to
intercept all signal, depriving me of the complete immersion
experience (we're cocooned for the snow-in)  :)

2008/12/23 michel paul <mpaul213 at gmail.com>:
> http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/obama-education
>
> "Computing education benefits all students, not just those interested in
> pursuing computer science or information technology careers," said Bobby
> Schnabel, chair of ACM's Education Policy Committee (EPC).
>
> Yes we can!  Yes we can!  Yes we can!
>
> - Michel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>

From echerlin at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 22:33:37 2008
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:33:37 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
	Science, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0812241333i362334d4k7eb173511c40807@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/23 michel paul <mpaul213 at gmail.com>:
> http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/obama-education
>
> "Computing education benefits all students, not just those interested in
> pursuing computer science or information technology careers," said Bobby
> Schnabel, chair of ACM's Education Policy Committee (EPC).

Thanks. I'll invite them to join Earth Treasury's digital textbook
project for the OLPC XO + Sugar. We have Smalltalk, Python, and FORTH
standard on the XO, and we can add anything else of interest. Well,
not Ada or C++, but those aren't of interest to third graders. APL is
coming. Scheme is pretty easy. What else would you like?

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Creating_textbooks

> Yes we can!  Yes we can!  Yes we can!
>
> - Michel


-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 23:42:55 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:42:55 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
	Science, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <e574f6eb0812241333i362334d4k7eb173511c40807@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
	<e574f6eb0812241333i362334d4k7eb173511c40807@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812241442h64189d7do8cc4936b38537c76@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/12/23 michel paul <mpaul213 at gmail.com>:
>> http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/obama-education
>>
>> "Computing education benefits all students, not just those interested in
>> pursuing computer science or information technology careers," said Bobby
>> Schnabel, chair of ACM's Education Policy Committee (EPC).
>
> Thanks. I'll invite them to join Earth Treasury's digital textbook
> project for the OLPC XO + Sugar. We have Smalltalk, Python, and FORTH
> standard on the XO, and we can add anything else of interest. Well,
> not Ada or C++, but those aren't of interest to third graders. APL is
> coming. Scheme is pretty easy. What else would you like?
>
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Creating_textbooks
>

Butting in, I'd like Erlang please.

I just read this and it seemed to make a lot of sense to me, got me
curious about Erlang again:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2008-December/084265.html

I like the idea of taking students through a language a day for five
days, making it completely a play experience, no sense that the
ax will fall if you feel floundery some of the time.  However, for brevity,
we'd want all of these languages to be interactive, like APL.

Possible sequence:  Python (because easy); Scheme; Erlang,
Ruby, REBOL.

Hey, this is fun, this is empowering, this is middle school, thanks to
philanthropic campaigns by ACM, OLPC etc.  NCTM seemed luke
warm most the time, but that's cuz our best cheerleaders haven't
had access to their conferences (yet).  We need to stage an
Obamarama for those left behind folks.

NCTM = National Council of Teachers of Mathematics for those
not up on everything.  Big focus has been "technology in the
classroom" but that mainly just means TI calculators, maybe
some page-turner "electronic textbooks", not much mention
of programming languages that I've seen (except the TI one).

NCTM partnered with TI and CBS on this police show called
"NUMB3RS" which I have some problems with:

http://focus.ti.com/pr/docs/preldetail.tsp?sectionId=594&prelId=et050009

Snapshots of me being critical of NUMB3RS in my blog:

http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/search?q=NUMB3RS

Kirby

>> Yes we can!  Yes we can!  Yes we can!
>>
>> - Michel
>
>
> --
> Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
> And Children are my nation.
> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>

From da.ajoy at gmail.com  Thu Dec 25 17:38:07 2008
From: da.ajoy at gmail.com (Daniel Ajoy)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:38:07 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
 Science, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1230202802.19659.edu-sig@python.org>
References: <mailman.5.1230202802.19659.edu-sig@python.org>
Message-ID: <op.ump8htuz0gup8g@daniel-pc>

On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 06:00:02 -0500, <edu-sig-request at python.org> wrote:

> From: "Edward Cherlin" 
> 
> 2008/12/23 michel paul :
>> http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/obama-education
>>
>> "Computing education benefits all students, not just those interested in
>> pursuing computer science or information technology careers," said Bobby
>> Schnabel, chair of ACM's Education Policy Committee (EPC).
> 
> Thanks. I'll invite them to join Earth Treasury's digital textbook
> project for the OLPC XO + Sugar. We have Smalltalk, Python, and FORTH
> standard on the XO, and we can add anything else of interest. Well,
> not Ada or C++, but those aren't of interest to third graders. 
> 
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Creating_textbooks


I don't think FORTH comes with the XO by default. I've the Mexico and Uruguay images and I haven't seen it. What's the name of it's executable?

Smalltalk only comes if Etoys is installed.

What does come is another very nice language, in my opinion. It is
* typeless
* interpreted
* small
* manages memory automatically
* does conversions between numbers and strings automatically
* can connect to the internet
* can pipe in and out of commands and files.
* it has hashes, and arrays are just hashes of numbers.

the language is called awk, and the interpreter gawk

now that I think of it, there is another programming language that comes by default: javascript.


> APL is
> coming. Scheme is pretty easy. What else would you like?

UCBLogo is Scheme without parethesis (and with dynamic scope, instead of lexical scope)
http://wiki.laptop.org/images/e/e5/Ucblogo-4.xo

The problem is that is it not sugarized yet.


and the LogoFE library for Logo makes is very much like APL. LogoFE is already in Spanish the language spoken in Uruguay, Colombia and Per?, where the XO has had deployments.


Daniel


From bert at freudenbergs.de  Thu Dec 25 23:52:44 2008
From: bert at freudenbergs.de (Bert Freudenberg)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 23:52:44 +0100
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
	Science, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <op.ump8htuz0gup8g@daniel-pc>
References: <mailman.5.1230202802.19659.edu-sig@python.org>
	<op.ump8htuz0gup8g@daniel-pc>
Message-ID: <1CB6DEB7-51DE-4678-8552-FD87B7E79245@freudenbergs.de>

On 25.12.2008, at 17:38, Daniel Ajoy wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 06:00:02 -0500, <edu-sig-request at python.org>  
> wrote:
>
>> From: "Edward Cherlin"
>>
>> 2008/12/23 michel paul :
>>> http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/obama-education
>>>
>>> "Computing education benefits all students, not just those  
>>> interested in
>>> pursuing computer science or information technology careers," said  
>>> Bobby
>>> Schnabel, chair of ACM's Education Policy Committee (EPC).
>>
>> Thanks. I'll invite them to join Earth Treasury's digital textbook
>> project for the OLPC XO + Sugar. We have Smalltalk, Python, and FORTH
>> standard on the XO, and we can add anything else of interest. Well,
>> not Ada or C++, but those aren't of interest to third graders.
>>
>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Creating_textbooks
>
>
> I don't think FORTH comes with the XO by default. I've the Mexico  
> and Uruguay images and I haven't seen it. What's the name of it's  
> executable?

It's in the firmware, and you need a developer key to access it.

> Smalltalk only comes if Etoys is installed.

Which it is, on every deployment so far. It's also part of Sugar.

> UCBLogo is Scheme without parethesis (and with dynamic scope,  
> instead of lexical scope)
> http://wiki.laptop.org/images/e/e5/Ucblogo-4.xo
>
> The problem is that is it not sugarized yet.
>
> and the LogoFE library for Logo makes is very much like APL. LogoFE  
> is already in Spanish the language spoken in Uruguay, Colombia and  
> Per?, where the XO has had deployments.


Right, a nice Logo is the one missing piece of the programming  
environments officially supported by OLPC:

http://laptop.org/en/laptop/software/specs.shtml

- Bert -


From echerlin at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 00:08:23 2008
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:08:23 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
	Science, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <op.ump8htuz0gup8g@daniel-pc>
References: <mailman.5.1230202802.19659.edu-sig@python.org>
	<op.ump8htuz0gup8g@daniel-pc>
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0812251508t292ca477va5430ee32cea38db@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Daniel Ajoy <da.ajoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 06:00:02 -0500, <edu-sig-request at python.org> wrote:
>
>> From: "Edward Cherlin"
>>
>> 2008/12/23 michel paul :
>>> http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/obama-education
>>>
>>> "Computing education benefits all students, not just those interested in
>>> pursuing computer science or information technology careers," said Bobby
>>> Schnabel, chair of ACM's Education Policy Committee (EPC).
>>
>> Thanks. I'll invite them to join Earth Treasury's digital textbook
>> project for the OLPC XO + Sugar. We have Smalltalk, Python, and FORTH
>> standard on the XO, and we can add anything else of interest. Well,
>> not Ada or C++, but those aren't of interest to third graders.
>>
>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Creating_textbooks
>
>
> I don't think FORTH comes with the XO by default. I've the Mexico and Uruguay images and I haven't seen it. What's the name of it's executable?

Open Firmware.

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Firmware_q2c27#How_to_get_the_ok_prompt

How to get the ok prompt

Press the ESC key (upper left on the keyboard) during the countdown.

> Smalltalk only comes if Etoys is installed.
>
> What does come is another very nice language, in my opinion. It is
> * typeless
> * interpreted
> * small
> * manages memory automatically
> * does conversions between numbers and strings automatically
> * can connect to the internet
> * can pipe in and out of commands and files.
> * it has hashes, and arrays are just hashes of numbers.
>
> the language is called awk, and the interpreter gawk
>
> now that I think of it, there is another programming language that comes by default: javascript.
>
>
>> APL is
>> coming. Scheme is pretty easy. What else would you like?
>
> UCBLogo is Scheme without parethesis (and with dynamic scope, instead of lexical scope)
> http://wiki.laptop.org/images/e/e5/Ucblogo-4.xo
>
> The problem is that is it not sugarized yet.

We talked about it in July. Somebody needs to step up to drive it, or
maybe just to get Brian Harvey involved.

There is also an extension being developed for TurtleArt to let it
save in UCBLogo file format.

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Logo discusses the options
http://n2.nabble.com/Sugar-Labs,-LOGO-and-Brian-Harvey-td474434.html (July 2008)
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2008-December/003393.html

> and the LogoFE library for Logo makes is very much like APL. LogoFE is already in Spanish the language spoken in Uruguay, Colombia and Per?, where the XO has had deployments.

Excellent. We must see about an English translation.

> Daniel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>



-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai

From echerlin at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 00:34:47 2008
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:34:47 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
	Science, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <op.ump8htuz0gup8g@daniel-pc>
References: <mailman.5.1230202802.19659.edu-sig@python.org>
	<op.ump8htuz0gup8g@daniel-pc>
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0812251534q5f60af12j8e7e1ff7054e4f06@mail.gmail.com>

Wait, I'm wrong. Brian Harvey's home page has a link for UCBLogo for the XO.

http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/
ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/pub/ucblogo/ucblogo-4.xo

I'll go try it out.

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Daniel Ajoy <da.ajoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 06:00:02 -0500, <edu-sig-request at python.org> wrote:
>
>> From: "Edward Cherlin"
>>
>> 2008/12/23 michel paul :
>>> http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/obama-education
>>>
>>> "Computing education benefits all students, not just those interested in
>>> pursuing computer science or information technology careers," said Bobby
>>> Schnabel, chair of ACM's Education Policy Committee (EPC).
>>
>> Thanks. I'll invite them to join Earth Treasury's digital textbook
>> project for the OLPC XO + Sugar. We have Smalltalk, Python, and FORTH
>> standard on the XO, and we can add anything else of interest. Well,
>> not Ada or C++, but those aren't of interest to third graders.
>>
>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Creating_textbooks
>
>
> I don't think FORTH comes with the XO by default. I've the Mexico and Uruguay images and I haven't seen it. What's the name of it's executable?
>
> Smalltalk only comes if Etoys is installed.
>
> What does come is another very nice language, in my opinion. It is
> * typeless
> * interpreted
> * small
> * manages memory automatically
> * does conversions between numbers and strings automatically
> * can connect to the internet
> * can pipe in and out of commands and files.
> * it has hashes, and arrays are just hashes of numbers.
>
> the language is called awk, and the interpreter gawk
>
> now that I think of it, there is another programming language that comes by default: javascript.
>
>
>> APL is
>> coming. Scheme is pretty easy. What else would you like?
>
> UCBLogo is Scheme without parethesis (and with dynamic scope, instead of lexical scope)
> http://wiki.laptop.org/images/e/e5/Ucblogo-4.xo
>
> The problem is that is it not sugarized yet.
>
>
> and the LogoFE library for Logo makes is very much like APL. LogoFE is already in Spanish the language spoken in Uruguay, Colombia and Per?, where the XO has had deployments.
>
>
> Daniel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>



-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 00:39:32 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:39:32 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
	Science, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <e574f6eb0812251508t292ca477va5430ee32cea38db@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.5.1230202802.19659.edu-sig@python.org>
	<op.ump8htuz0gup8g@daniel-pc>
	<e574f6eb0812251508t292ca477va5430ee32cea38db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812251539q70c77be9ufd89f864260737a8@mail.gmail.com>

Good seeing the XO firing up again, G1G1 billboards up around town
(says Ron Braithwaite, contributor to ANSI Forth committee work from
long ago **), certainly a big theme in my household this year, as in
under the (plastic) Christmas Tree, as well as a hit at our Solstice
Party on the 20th.

http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2008/12/exoterica.html
http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2008/12/snow.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3124604394/in/set-72157611469130829/

In contrast to the "solo with guitar" Nashville model (have XO will
travel), there's the garage band notion of specialized instruments,
which is more like the TuxLab approach, or what we did at HPD:  this
box is our gateway (does Squid) this one is for mostly games, this one
isn't even on the intranet, let alone Internet, and so on.

It's not either/or.

Many of us carry the briefcase laptop to and from work, yet park them
to mess with entirely different LCDs (a lot of them shared),
specialized to different tasks.  The XO maps to your future personal
computer, but that's not the end of our story:  there's the computer
lab at your school (perhaps reconfigurable).

Portland is well known for its Red Hat based thin client networks,
used in many of our schools, where Python is also taught.  A lot of
our hardware is recycled PC, Pentium class especially, not laptops.
So we're able to turn out computer labs, as a package, much more
easily than we're able to turn out XOs (zero point zero of these
latter, still quite exotic to find any).

A given Saturday Academy class might involve httpd.conf, learning
about daemons, mod_python, mod_perl....  What's Apache all about?
Mapping this training exercise into "XO space" seems a bit steep to
lazy engineers, given all these recycled Pentiums lying around, so
that's what we cobble together.

However, if your kid has been cutting teeth on Pippy, then jumping in
as a competent server or cube farmer would seem but a hop, skip and a
jump.  You'd have a way to save for college, or whatever certification
program.  So by all means, keep those XOs pumping out there.  I
treasure mine, like lending it to kids under 10.

I was suggesting on Quaker-P this morning, in a thread with Vanessa,
that we get an XO included on our SImple Gifts panel, the one we're
using to send virtual bonnets, capes, other accessories (even a
Prius).  Maybe we'll get a green light.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3134823006/sizes/o/

Kirby

** http://www.quartus.net/files/PalmOS/Forth/Docs/dpans94.pdf

HPD:  Hillsboro Police Department (near Intel)
LCD:  liquid crystal display
XO:    XO
G1G1:  Give One Get One
ANSI:  American National Standards

From krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Dec 26 05:24:12 2008
From: krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu (=?UTF-8?Q?Ivan_Krsti=C4=87?=)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 23:24:12 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
	Science, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <1CB6DEB7-51DE-4678-8552-FD87B7E79245@freudenbergs.de>
References: <mailman.5.1230202802.19659.edu-sig@python.org>
	<op.ump8htuz0gup8g@daniel-pc>
	<1CB6DEB7-51DE-4678-8552-FD87B7E79245@freudenbergs.de>
Message-ID: <9CE9420B-F33A-4800-A910-D72DEFD4B7E9@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu>

On Dec 25, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> Right, a nice Logo is the one missing piece of the programming  
> environments officially supported by OLPC


I talked to Walter (Bender) about a week ago, and he's working on  
this. We looked at PyLogo together, but it doesn't seem like it'll  
make a good first pass choice.

--
Ivan Krsti? <krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> | http://radian.org


From jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 19:43:30 2008
From: jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com (Jurgis Pralgauskis)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:43:30 +0200
Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812201117i4649582cu8da880d57d371a55@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812150934m3f6d3483q8894d97a31b8c6bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812151031o14fb66balae0f27e6bc82ee8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812151308o5c354e6ep8112675cb46bd4d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812151347y517c9841t7ae91d795bc5f569@mail.gmail.com>
	<34f4097d0812200021t4d3e049bj11091df110d60a74@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812201117i4649582cu8da880d57d371a55@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34f4097d0812261043j6b98b6d8y2c0313b079cc9f79@mail.gmail.com>

>> maybe smb knows of similar initiatives  ?

googling around found
http://www.python-visual-sandbox.de/

another thing which I am curiuos about -- visualization:
python is quite visual itself, but for CS intro its quite common to
use flowcharts

there's nice tool for two-way software Visustin (free demo)
http://www.aivosto.com/visustin/sample/gcd-python.html

one way: weird flowchart -> py (opensource)
http://www.pygame.org/project/355/

also something similar to flowcharts - Vision  (seems kind of opensource)
http://mgltools.scripps.edu/packages/vision

does anybody know of py -> flowchart (opensource)?
I imagine it could be done with ast module
similary as
http://blog.prashanthellina.com/2007/11/14/generating-call-graphs-for-understanding-and-refactoring-python-code/
or http://pycallgraph.slowchop.com/

From gerry.lowry at abilitybusinesscomputerservices.com  Fri Dec 26 20:18:25 2008
From: gerry.lowry at abilitybusinesscomputerservices.com (gerry_lowry (alliston ontario canada))
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:18:25 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component
	ofScience, Math Education
References: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
	<e574f6eb0812241333i362334d4k7eb173511c40807@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1A1B4FA259C6443DA6471C66A5E5E937@zentrumvegan>

Edward Cherlin, in part:  "APL is coming".

Therefore, J, APL'S successor in ASCII, makes sense in this regard.

J has a small footprint and is brilliantly programmed by Roger Hui et al.

Further, Ken Iverson was a teacher until his last breath*.

The J IDE makes a great environment for teacher and student experimentation.


Regards, Gerry (Lowry)

Best wishes to all for a healthy, happy, and safe holiday season.


References:

   http://sugarlabs.org/go/Creating_textbooks

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO-1

* http://objectmix.com/apl/152815-ken-iverson-dead-83-a.html

__________________________________________________________________________
Gerry Lowry, Principal
Ability Business Computer Services  ~~ Because it's your Business, our Experience Counts!
68 John W. Taylor Avenue
Alliston ? Ontario ? Canada ? L9R 0E1
gerry.lowry at abilitybusinesscomputerservices.com 


From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 20:39:58 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:39:58 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] interactive python tutorial online (as tryruby)
In-Reply-To: <34f4097d0812261043j6b98b6d8y2c0313b079cc9f79@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f4097d0812150606s21b53e4fs77c74761d8f5a39a@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812150934m3f6d3483q8894d97a31b8c6bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812151031o14fb66balae0f27e6bc82ee8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7528bcdd0812151308o5c354e6ep8112675cb46bd4d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812151347y517c9841t7ae91d795bc5f569@mail.gmail.com>
	<34f4097d0812200021t4d3e049bj11091df110d60a74@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812201117i4649582cu8da880d57d371a55@mail.gmail.com>
	<34f4097d0812261043j6b98b6d8y2c0313b079cc9f79@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812261139q1658a7c2y656452d0c37d9c41@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jurgis Pralgauskis
<jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> maybe smb knows of similar initiatives  ?
>
> googling around found
> http://www.python-visual-sandbox.de/
>

Excellent set of visualizations, although I bailed just now on
recursive Fibonaccis, a reflex as that's so not the right way to do it
(but hey, the author is teaching recursion, so my problem not his).
"I'll be back" (Gov. of California voice).

I especially liked the one about lists and pointers, as it hearkens
back to recent long threads right here on edu-sig about how to best
visualize what's happening in:

s = [1]
t = [s, s, s]
for ele in t:
   ele[0] += 1
>>> print(t)
[[4], [4], [4]]

(one of the examples, updated to Py3).

That you get to watch more than one visualization and then "vote" is
so focus group.  The more Pythonic visualizations seem to come later
(numbers too are objects, a = 1, then a = 2 is repointing name 'a', b
= a means another name for the same object...

Probably the whole notion of reference counting and garbage collection
is a good place to dive into the system language implementation when
the time comes?

Copying is "discouraged" in Python because of the "heavyweight
objects" and "lightweight names" model:  i.e. could easily be very
expensive to copy (and why did you need two of the same thing in the
first place?), memory-wise, so "a = b" doesn't mean that, and adding
lots of names is very low overhead.

In my Saturday Academy class, a typical object is "a bulldozer" or "a
train" in a somewhat literal sense, in that I'm having them imagining
puppeting their sandbox toys via some AJAXy eyecandy or whatever (a
mental exercise), except now they're not just sandbox toys anymore,
but the real deal.

Oh, and the regular expressions thing (first one) -- fantastic.
Michael Weigend is a talented artist.

I thank you for sharing this link, will be shopping it around to my teachers.

Kirby

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 21:14:36 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:14:36 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Europython story...
Message-ID: <f604188c0812271214o56a29377haa02b73a6469a8fe@mail.gmail.com>

So here's a sort of funny story, true, from Vilnius that time.

I'm in the ConocoPhillips demo of how a big oil company uses Pythonic
tools as a part of a video pipeline (sort of a pun) connecting Ecofisk
to shore managers, big screening room, lots of eye candy, you've
probably seen places like it.  So like if a ship is pulling up,
that'll be there on screen, to scale, looking very ship like, and even
bobbing up and down in the waves, rather dramatically in a storm (in
which case, maybe try docking later?).

At this point, this professor to my left, from Italy, semi-explodes
saying there's no way to solve all those partial differential
equations about fluid dynamics in real time (he's right) and sort of
foaming at the mouth thinking what a breakthrough this must be, like
playing Doom for the first time, you could just see the Exxon /
NUMB3RS crypto bonanza, like Springer-Verlag on steroids, spilling out
of his thought balloon.

Meanwhile we non-mathematicians were muttering stupid stuff, like we'd
just come from Pixar like "it's just a fucking cartoon" but we held
our tongues, not wanting to be impolite (especially me, in a stupid
suit like I thought would help me "blend in" in Lithuania, like what
the hell did I know:  I poke vicious fun at myself in the caption to
this picture (following URL)).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/1022917395/in/set-72157601248882665/

Kirby

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 00:19:51 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:19:51 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] More re OLPC
Message-ID: <f604188c0812291519t79b74c96s7bc59c77f4cc9c66@mail.gmail.com>

This just in:

http://adage.com/article?article_id=133510

Excerpt:

"""
Joe Deeley, a comedian on the Geek Comedy Tour, laid out a common
opinion, writing in the comments of Laptop Magazine's blog discussion.
"John Lennon probably would have endorsed the OLPC. I seriously doubt
he would have endorsed manipulating dead celebrities to say things we
'IMAGINE' they might have said. ... Congratulations on a bold new
level of newspeak. George Orwell would be proud. What's next? Elvis
for peace in Darfur? Why not? I believe he would have supported it.
John Wayne would probably have gotten behind AIDS education and
prevention measures. ... Where does it end? Why do we need dead people
to help us envision a better future? I suppose there's nobody alive
that would agree to this? Sad times."
"""

Plus more OLPC stuff in my blog post today (BizMo Diaries).

Kirby

From echerlin at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 00:20:13 2008
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:20:13 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component
	ofScience, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <1A1B4FA259C6443DA6471C66A5E5E937@zentrumvegan>
References: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
	<e574f6eb0812241333i362334d4k7eb173511c40807@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A1B4FA259C6443DA6471C66A5E5E937@zentrumvegan>
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0812291520l1d15e04alc296144f1e62dd44@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 11:18 AM, gerry_lowry (alliston ontario
canada) <gerry.lowry at abilitybusinesscomputerservices.com> wrote:
> Edward Cherlin, in part:  "APL is coming".

NumPy is heavily influenced by APL, as are the math parts of Ada,
Common LISP, FORTRAN 90 and beyond, and all functional programming
languages.

> Therefore, J, APL'S successor in ASCII, makes sense in this regard.
>
> J has a small footprint and is brilliantly programmed by Roger Hui et al.

I have a copy of their published source code from several versions
back. It is amazing how Roger used the C preprocessor so that he could
write much of J in APL style, essentially giving an object definition
for nested arrays containing data of any mixture of types.

> Further, Ken Iverson was a teacher until his last breath*.

With constant insistence that the right way to learn is by
exploration. Try to invent tests that tell you what a function is and
does before you read the definition.

> The J IDE makes a great environment for teacher and student experimentation.

+1 from me, of course.

The big question is whether Eric and Roger would be willing to GPL
some version of J. The computational core would do nicely for many
purposes, although I would far rather have the complete system,
including object-oriented programming, graphics, and GUI development.

Both Alan Graham and Arthur Whitney are working on enhanced APLs under
a Free license, and have offered them for the XO.

> Regards, Gerry (Lowry)
>
> Best wishes to all for a healthy, happy, and safe holiday season.
>
>
> References:
>
>   http://sugarlabs.org/go/Creating_textbooks
>
>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO-1
>
> * http://objectmix.com/apl/152815-ken-iverson-dead-83-a.html
>
> __________________________________________________________________________
> Gerry Lowry, Principal
> Ability Business Computer Services  ~~ Because it's your Business, our Experience Counts!
> 68 John W. Taylor Avenue
> Alliston ? Ontario ? Canada ? L9R 0E1
> gerry.lowry at abilitybusinesscomputerservices.com
>
>



-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 00:37:37 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:37:37 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component
	ofScience, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <e574f6eb0812291520l1d15e04alc296144f1e62dd44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
	<e574f6eb0812241333i362334d4k7eb173511c40807@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A1B4FA259C6443DA6471C66A5E5E937@zentrumvegan>
	<e574f6eb0812291520l1d15e04alc296144f1e62dd44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812291537s42e9ba9dw149f07cbfb998c0b@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, lots of pro J sentiment on this list, including by me, author of
'Jiving in J' (got some help with typos from Kenneth, though I think
there're still a couple):  http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/cp4e.html

There's a bit of a disconnect with the XO in that I really do think of
it as for pre-teens, given the small keys and appearance, was thinking
bold designs building on XO would be in the wings by now, but
apparently that's too hard a project.

The idea of a Richard Stallings type geek using the XO as his "main
laptop" just fills me with evil glee, I'm sorry, such an absurd image.

The idea of hitting a pre-teen with Erlang and J, whereas most adults
I know are still stuck on Access and Excel, is just a wee bit
ludicrous, even for the child prodigy cult people (lots of
Smalltalkers in that camp).  Let's get a little more real, shall we?

What laptop would you give a Peruvian or Cambodian teen, if not an XO?
 Of course it should run Python, and of course it shouldn't ignore the
serious advances the XO represents.

Kirby

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 01:17:22 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:17:22 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component
	ofScience, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812291537s42e9ba9dw149f07cbfb998c0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
	<e574f6eb0812241333i362334d4k7eb173511c40807@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A1B4FA259C6443DA6471C66A5E5E937@zentrumvegan>
	<e574f6eb0812291520l1d15e04alc296144f1e62dd44@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812291537s42e9ba9dw149f07cbfb998c0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812291617i120b4125t78da216baab277f9@mail.gmail.com>

>
> The idea of a Richard Stallings type geek using the XO as his "main
> laptop" just fills me with evil glee, I'm sorry, such an absurd image.
>

Sorry, Stallman, duh.

Johnny Stallings is a talented actor who plays all parts of King Lear
and Hamlet (though not both plays at once).  More on my blogs e.g.
http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2004/10/king-lear-play-review.html

Stallman (Richard) was through Sri Lanka awhile back, talking with
user groups, which is what got me tracking the Unicode picture
vis-a-vis Tamil and Sinhalese, two of the main ones.

I have a longstanding interest in fonts, taking a Tibetan glyph set
into Bhutan on Mac disks in the 1980s, only to learn from their
resident artists that Dzongkha isn't really Tibetan, lots of
differences to notice.  I understood completely, never lost my
interest in the global challenge however, of getting computer
technology more inclusive in this way.

I'm sort of collecting Python source code examples (Py3K) using these
multiple glyph sets, to get across the internationalization of the
coding experience.  I think too many get scared away from computer
science thinking it'll all be all Latin-1 all the time, whereas those
were the bad old days (still pays to learn it though, not trying to
"put it behind me" or anything).

For those of you not on edu-sig, I'm referring to the leap from 2.x to
3.x, wherein top level names became any Unicode string, facilitating
coding outside Latin-1, though Pythons keywords and special names
remain in the picture, plus Standard Library has its stipulations and
so on.

This collection would look good on an XO, but we're not trying to tie
LCDs and XOs together too tightly, as many a flatscreen is a read-only
device, like a billboard, where it makes just as much sense to show
off these new capabilities.

Kirby

From echerlin at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 04:35:58 2008
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:35:58 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component of
	Science, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <9CE9420B-F33A-4800-A910-D72DEFD4B7E9@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <mailman.5.1230202802.19659.edu-sig@python.org>
	<op.ump8htuz0gup8g@daniel-pc>
	<1CB6DEB7-51DE-4678-8552-FD87B7E79245@freudenbergs.de>
	<9CE9420B-F33A-4800-A910-D72DEFD4B7E9@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0812291935g3507a1a5kc05e9bc71626f120@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Ivan Krsti?
<krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:
> On Dec 25, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>
>> Right, a nice Logo is the one missing piece of the programming
>> environments officially supported by OLPC
>
>
> I talked to Walter (Bender) about a week ago, and he's working on this. We
> looked at PyLogo together, but it doesn't seem like it'll make a good first
> pass choice.

I see that UCBLogo is packaged in a .xo file for the XO, and that an
earlier version was licensed under GPL, although Brian Harvey says,
"Berkeley Logo is a freeware interpreter that I wrote along with
several students." So, Brian, what's the deal with that?

http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/logo.html
A version for the One Laptop Per Child XO is here
ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/pub/ucblogo/ucblogo-4.xo

http://freshmeat.net/projects/ucblogo/
[License]	 	 OSI Approved :: GNU General Public License (GPL)

> --
> Ivan Krsti? <krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> | http://radian.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>



-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai

From echerlin at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 04:41:16 2008
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:41:16 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component
	ofScience, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <f604188c0812291537s42e9ba9dw149f07cbfb998c0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
	<e574f6eb0812241333i362334d4k7eb173511c40807@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A1B4FA259C6443DA6471C66A5E5E937@zentrumvegan>
	<e574f6eb0812291520l1d15e04alc296144f1e62dd44@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812291537s42e9ba9dw149f07cbfb998c0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0812291941x50662f50q761897b6d6d98d4c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:37 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, lots of pro J sentiment on this list, including by me, author of
> 'Jiving in J' (got some help with typos from Kenneth, though I think
> there're still a couple):  http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/cp4e.html
>
> There's a bit of a disconnect with the XO in that I really do think of
> it as for pre-teens, given the small keys and appearance, was thinking
> bold designs building on XO would be in the wings by now, but
> apparently that's too hard a project.

Actually, it's more that the computer companies don't believe in the
developing country market yet, and don't take its requirements
seriously.

> The idea of a Richard Stallings

Stallman

> type geek using the XO as his "main
> laptop" just fills me with evil glee, I'm sorry, such an absurd image.
>
> The idea of hitting a pre-teen with Erlang and J, whereas most adults
> I know are still stuck on Access and Excel, is just a wee bit
> ludicrous, even for the child prodigy cult people (lots of
> Smalltalkers in that camp).  Let's get a little more real, shall we?

Ken would have disagreed strongly with you. He got IBM to loan a
school a 360 to teach elementary arithmetic with.

> What laptop would you give a Peruvian or Cambodian teen, if not an XO?
>  Of course it should run Python, and of course it shouldn't ignore the
> serious advances the XO represents.

Take a look at the Encore Mobilis. Brazil is buying them. I worked for
Encore at one time. I'm asking them about putting Sugar on it.

> Kirby

-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 07:59:15 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:59:15 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] ACM Urges Obama to Include CS as Core Component
	ofScience, Math Education
In-Reply-To: <e574f6eb0812291941x50662f50q761897b6d6d98d4c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40ea4eb00812231901u549104b0l55021ac7abd99113@mail.gmail.com>
	<e574f6eb0812241333i362334d4k7eb173511c40807@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A1B4FA259C6443DA6471C66A5E5E937@zentrumvegan>
	<e574f6eb0812291520l1d15e04alc296144f1e62dd44@mail.gmail.com>
	<f604188c0812291537s42e9ba9dw149f07cbfb998c0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<e574f6eb0812291941x50662f50q761897b6d6d98d4c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f604188c0812292259s21a03f39y1ef46915ea9bd225@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com> wrote:

<< SNIP >>

> Ken would have disagreed strongly with you. He got IBM to loan a
> school a 360 to teach elementary arithmetic with.
>

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not against this kind of thing.  When we
get a prodigy, they sometimes call me in.  This kid at Winterhaven
(Portland's Hogwarts for geeks) had partitioned his laptop into five
OSes, including with DOS, was playing with all of em, got Putty on
WinNT in a classroom subnet to slave to his telnet server on the
ThinkPad.  Kid was eight years old (3rd grade).  Not saying I'm
unfamiliar with the breed or anything.  It's just you don't want to
make your whole pitch be about pandering to prodigies.  The grand
piano market would go bust if only Mozarts could get them.  The thing
about laptops is they're generically useful even if you *don't* care
at all about these computer languages right now (you might be too
bright for them, prefer learning human ones...).

>> What laptop would you give a Peruvian or Cambodian teen, if not an XO?
>>  Of course it should run Python, and of course it shouldn't ignore the
>> serious advances the XO represents.
>
> Take a look at the Encore Mobilis. Brazil is buying them. I worked for
> Encore at one time. I'm asking them about putting Sugar on it.
>

Yeah cool, that's the kind of suggestion I'm looking for.  How to pay
for these is a problem the private sector is waiting to see solved,
before jumping in, I understand the psychology.  There's a UN ban on
recruiting teens into military services (OK, an unenforced agreement),
but nothing similar against Girl Scouts right?

Kirby

From csev at umich.edu  Wed Dec 31 21:22:17 2008
From: csev at umich.edu (csev)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:22:17 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] O'Reilly Book on Google App Engine
Message-ID: <3E37A3EF-01FA-468C-9969-A917C2DA9036@umich.edu>

Hi all,  I am finishing up the first draft on a book on Google's  
AppEngine and looking for technical reviewers of the book.

The book is titled, "Building Cloud Applications with Google  
AppEngine" and it is aimed at a very basic level of expertise.  It is  
my hope that it could be used as a self-contained first introduction  
to programming and certainly a first introduction to web programming.

It covers basic Python programming in a chapter and covers OO Python  
at various points in the book.

You can take a look at the book materials at:

http://www.appenginelearn.com/chapters/toc.htm

I look forward to your comments.  If you are interested in being a  
reviewer for the book please send me a note.

Charles Severance
University of Michigan


From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 23:07:37 2008
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:07:37 -0800
Subject: [Edu-sig] Happy New Year!
Message-ID: <f604188c0812311407h4aea391aw2aa5e9a0371deef3@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings edu-siggers --

I was pleased to get my second XO yesterday, am lugging junior to an
annual gathering in Southern Oregon today, to share with future movers
and shakers (actually Quakers).

My agenda for 2009 is to stick with the pro-SQL campaign, still
thinking of the latest OSCON, in which I talked about cube farmer
frustrations with no "open source Access" and the panelists suggested
SQL was in itself meeting students more than half way, i.e. they just
need to go the extra mile and stop using training wheels for SQL, even
if you want the razzle dazzle Reports (lots of packages have that --
just go straight to PDF half the time).

Serving through a browser, using a simple web framework (might be
*very* simple) makes plenty of sense on a local laptop, plus your
design now tends to scale (unlike some "fat clients" we know).

So, lotsa LAMP in high school, easy to implement, apropos in GIS/GPS
class (i.e. geography -- a prerequisite for planning jobs, or like
with Google Earth).

More about that here, including changing LAMP to ARM or AMP maybe:

http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2008/12/loose-ends.html

Anyway, SQL ties in with "computer algebra" as a kind of marketing
name, in addition to "gnu math" and is not that off target, given the
abstract algebra themes we've been seeing, i.e. once your focus
becomes "type centric" (even with "duck typing") the next logical
question (in biology too) is what inter-operates with what, i.e. what
binary ops have defined outcomes / meanings, raising issues of
closure, versus exceptions, etc.

Makes plenty of sense to use small finite sets, integers modulo, build
towards RSA -- all that old hat stuff per my Vegetable Group Soup
(Flash animation, many other exhibits, on Cut the Knot or wherever).

Of course the real questions are all about implementation:

Will NCLB get some funding for a change, such that teachers have
plenty of opportunities to pick up on this stuff while still holding
down the day job?

I think in the affirmative on this one, as in-service training has
always been a part of the job description.  However, there's no
guarantee that (a) math teachers are always first in line or (b) your
zip code will have it before someplace in Cambodia or Peru (lots of
smart geeks out there, not waiting for a green light from any "NCLB
Czar", snicker).

Looking forward to 2009!

Kirby