From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 01:36:50 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:36:50 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] poking some dying logs... Message-ID: I'd like to make another plug for including this title on the edu-sig home page: http://www.skylit.com/mathandpython.html Ian thought it was too much a hybrid of CS and math, not an elegant amalgamation, though I don't have has remarks in front of me at the moment. Steve was gonna get back to us. Andre thought he might work it onto the page... That was all months ago by now, so it make sense to raise the issue again, as the title does break new ground in some ways, has claim to being a math teaching book, yet uses a computer language (one most of us know). 'Concrete Mathematics' and 'The Art of Computer Programming' are both math books of course, amenable to a "through programming" approach. Jsoftware folks implemented the former in J, whereas the latter is in MMX already. Another hot button issue in Portland these days is whether families have the right to demand a PDF version of any assigned textbook, versus a hardcopy edition. We have lots of tree huggers around here, worried about "green" and unsustainability. To quote one of my colleagues (from her blog): "We need the text book companies to print thousands of copies of new textbooks every year, not so the authors can make money, though they make a little, but so the companies can make money... Do some central planning, and if the government can't do that without going through corporations, then it is time to [do it ourselves]". Anyway, just wanted to re-raise that as well. I mostly do my computer / technical reading on Safari, have no problem with recycling already printed books, have no problem with small press runs. But I can see where truck loads of spanking new 400 page math books, hot off the press, none containing any computer programming to speak of, let alone Mites, Sytes or Kites (honeycomb stuff, important to gnu-bees), would provoke a crisis in conscience for our more ethical. This is the kind of thing 15 year olds talk about. They're suspicious of adults who can't follow their logic (about saving trees), undermines adult authority to not have a response. So do we all favor an "opt out" option for hard copy textbooks? Say aye? Say nay? Kirby From vceder at canterburyschool.org Sat Aug 1 04:22:31 2009 From: vceder at canterburyschool.org (Vern Ceder) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:22:31 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Pycon organizers is now talking about poster sessions In-Reply-To: <200907311935.n6VJZv0l022173@theraft.openend.se> References: <200906060714.n567EmfB024212@theraft.openend.se> <200906062150.n56LopJA003990@theraft.openend.se> <200907311935.n6VJZv0l022173@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <4A73A6E7.7020905@canterburyschool.org> Well, I'm a teacher, and I started proposing the idea of (and offered to coordinate) an education themed poster session on the PyCon organizers list a couple of weeks ago. This proposal was based on some discussions Kirby, Steve Holden and I had after this past PyCon. See http://mail.python.org/mailman/private/pycon-organizers/2009-July/012679.html for my initial proposal. Back in April I floated the poster sesson idea on this list and got a few responses, mostly favorable. (see http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2009-April/009257.html) And Kirby has posted on this theme here and in other places several times. On PyCon-organizers there have been a couple of rounds of discussion, but no resolution so far. Then came the latest discussions of lost money, adding another track, etc. So yeah, the idea does come from a couple of teachers, and it's certainly my intention to keep consulting with members of this list, if only we can get some sort of agreement from the PyCon organizers. So I'm grateful for the push you gave the idea recently and any help you can give us in moving it forward. Cheers, Vern Laura Creighton wrote: > I think it would help if an actual teacher got involved before they > decide what teachers want without consultation ... > > Laura > > ps -- unfortunately you have to subscribe to read the archive. I have > no idea why. http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From lac at openend.se Sat Aug 1 12:30:57 2009 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 12:30:57 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] Joel Spolsky wants Python speakers Message-ID: <200908011030.n71AUvL3004523@theraft.openend.se> Some of you may be interested. I just forward this, and haven't even viewed the links ... Laura ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: psf-members-bounces+lac=openend.se at python.org Message-Id: <8581978C-7FB1-48E3-906F-BA36B15627C1 at gmail.com> From: Ted Pollari To: PSF Members List Cc: advocacy at python.org Subject: [PSF-Members] Stack Overflow's Dev Days Looking For Python Speakers Anyone interested in representing Python or at least in pointing Joel Spolsky in a good direction? From the transcript of the Stack Overflow Podcast at: https://stackoverflow.fogbugz.com/default.asp?W29071 : """Spolsky: I have a request of our listeners if you're listening to this show. We're trying to organize these stack overflow dev days and I've found alot of good speakers on alot of good topics but what I really want is some Python speakers. People to do a python tutorial in each of the ten cities and I don't have any Python speakers lined up at all and I don't really know who the good Python teachers and Python tutors are. So if you've ever gotten a Python tutorial in person or you've heard somebody speaking on Python who you thought was absolutely brilliant and fun to listen to and taught you alot in an hour. Which is what we want to happen at the stack overflow dev days. Could you please tell me who they are? and what their name is and even where they live? and do that by emailing that to devdays at stackoverflow.com which is our standard dev days address for any kind of dev days question about dev days.""" _______________________________________________ PSF-Members mailing list PSF-Members at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-members ------- End of Forwarded Message From lac at openend.se Sat Aug 1 20:48:51 2009 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 20:48:51 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] [EuroPython] Joel Spolsky wants Python speakers In-Reply-To: Message from Laura Creighton of "Sat, 01 Aug 2009 12:30:57 +0200." <200908011030.n71AUvL3004523@theraft.openend.se> References: <200908011030.n71AUvL3004523@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <200908011848.n71ImpFf029228@theraft.openend.se> Me again. Just found out that 2 of the cities for devdays are cambridge and amsterdam. Some of you lot that thought you weren't interested may think again ... Laura In a message of Sat, 01 Aug 2009 12:30:57 +0200, Laura Creighton writes: > >Some of you may be interested. I just forward this, and haven't even >viewed the links ... > >Laura > >------- Forwarded Message > >Return-Path: psf-members-bounces+lac=openend.se at python.org >Message-Id: <8581978C-7FB1-48E3-906F-BA36B15627C1 at gmail.com> >From: Ted Pollari >To: PSF Members List >Cc: advocacy at python.org >Subject: [PSF-Members] Stack Overflow's Dev Days Looking For Python Speak >ers > > >Anyone interested in representing Python or at least in pointing Joel >Spolsky in a good direction? > > From the transcript of the Stack Overflow Podcast at: https://stackover >flow.fogbugz.com/default.asp?W29071 > : > >"""Spolsky: I have a request of our listeners if you're listening to >this show. We're trying to organize these stack overflow dev days and >I've found alot of good speakers on alot of good topics but what I >really want is some Python speakers. People to do a python tutorial in >each of the ten cities and I don't have any Python speakers lined up >at all and I don't really know who the good Python teachers and Python >tutors are. So if you've ever gotten a Python tutorial in person or >you've heard somebody speaking on Python who you thought was >absolutely brilliant and fun to listen to and taught you alot in an >hour. Which is what we want to happen at the stack overflow dev days. >Could you please tell me who they are? and what their name is and even >where they live? and do that by emailing that to devdays at stackoverflow.co >m > which is our standard dev days address for any kind of dev days >question about dev days.""" > > >_______________________________________________ >PSF-Members mailing list >PSF-Members at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-members > >------- End of Forwarded Message > >_______________________________________________ >EuroPython mailing list >EuroPython at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From lac at openend.se Sun Aug 2 01:49:31 2009 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 01:49:31 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] [EuroPython] Joel Spolsky wants Python speakers In-Reply-To: Message from Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton of "Sat, 01 Aug 2009 21:59:51 -0000." References: <200908011030.n71AUvL3004523@theraft.openend.se> <200908011848.n71ImpFf029228@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <200908012349.n71NnVV9011980@theraft.openend.se> In a message of Sat, 01 Aug 2009 21:59:51 -0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton w rites: >On 8/1/09, Laura Creighton wrote: >> >> Me again. Just found out that 2 of the cities for devdays are >> cambridge and amsterdam. Some of you lot that thought you weren't >> interested may think again ... > > london is a third one. Thanks Luke. Laura From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 19:17:41 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 10:17:41 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] poking some dying logs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Another hot button issue in Portland these days is whether families > have the right to demand a PDF version of any assigned textbook, > versus a hardcopy edition. ?We have lots of tree huggers around here, > worried about "green" and unsustainability. ?To quote one of my > colleagues (from her blog): > > "We need the text book companies to print thousands of copies of new > textbooks every year, not so the authors can make money, though they > make a little, but so the companies can make money... Do some central > planning, and if the government can't do that without going through > corporations, then it is time to [do it ourselves]". > Hmmmm, Lindsey reports her blog taken off line by Google thought police (or does someone else have that power -- under the table deal with China, to outsource censorship?). Truly, it had some swear words, I noticed them too (kept a copy, lots of us did). She's got some other blogs planned. Fair warning about Google (the search feature within blogs is also anemic, could be we're seeing an over-stretched infrastructure here, wouldn't surprise anyone). I didn't see anyone liking the "PDF option" option yet, except on some of the student organizer blogs. I'm guessing most teachers are too comfortably middle class to wanna rock the boat around gratuitous tree killing. I also got some hate mail (from Florida) claiming Portland has no right to subvert the authority of CS departments by phasing in Pythonic math with no direction from them. I pointed out we're working closely with MIT and various Silicon Forest companies with a strong CS track record, don't need to work with universities in Florida, or anyone kowtowing to ETS for that matter. Such is life in the fast lane, back to work, Kirby From echerlin at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 20:06:00 2009 From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 11:06:00 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] poking some dying logs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:36 PM, kirby urner wrote: > I'd like to make another plug for including this title on the edu-sig home page: > > http://www.skylit.com/mathandpython.html > > Ian thought it was too much a hybrid of CS and math, not an elegant > amalgamation, though I don't have has remarks in front of me at the > moment. ?Steve was gonna get back to us. ?Andre thought he might work > it onto the page... I like the concept but not the execution. The student doesn't find out what properties of various data structures and mathematical objects are fundamental. There is too much of the old style of telling students what to learn, and neither explaining why nor allowing students to discover. I find it annoying that the book gives complex number examples, but shies away from actually using complex arithmetic. Far more CS could be introduced at the level of the math being used. The book uses Python, but none of the very capable math software available beyond graphing calculators. I prefer Ken Iverson's approach, in which he taught how to write programs to do algebraic manipulations and symbolic differentiation. Does anybody know these authors? Can we engage them in a process to improve what they have done? Maria Litvin Phillips Academy, Andover, Massachusetts Gary Litvin Skylight Software, Inc. > That was all months ago by now, so it make sense to raise the issue > again, as the title does break new ground in some ways, has claim to > being a math teaching book, yet uses a computer language (one most of > us know). > > 'Concrete Mathematics' and 'The Art of Computer Programming' are both > math books of course, amenable to a "through programming" approach. > Jsoftware folks implemented the former in J, whereas the latter is in > MMX already. > > Another hot button issue in Portland these days is whether families > have the right to demand a PDF version of any assigned textbook, > versus a hardcopy edition. ?We have lots of tree huggers around here, > worried about "green" and unsustainability. ?To quote one of my > colleagues (from her blog): > > "We need the text book companies to print thousands of copies of new > textbooks every year, not so the authors can make money, though they > make a little, but so the companies can make money... Do some central > planning, and if the government can't do that without going through > corporations, then it is time to [do it ourselves]". > > Anyway, just wanted to re-raise that as well. > > I mostly do my computer / technical reading on Safari, have no problem > with recycling already printed books, have no problem with small press > runs. ?But I can see where truck loads of spanking new 400 page math > books, hot off the press, none containing any computer programming to > speak of, let alone Mites, Sytes or Kites (honeycomb stuff, important > to gnu-bees), would provoke a crisis in conscience for our more > ethical. > > This is the kind of thing 15 year olds talk about. ?They're suspicious > of adults who can't follow their logic (about saving trees), > undermines adult authority to not have a response. ?So do we all favor > an "opt out" option for hard copy textbooks? ?Say aye? ?Say nay? > > Kirby > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -- Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. http://earthtreasury.org/worknet (Edward Mokurai Cherlin) From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 23:02:47 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 14:02:47 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] poking some dying logs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:17 AM, kirby urner wrote: >> Another hot button issue in Portland these days is whether families >> have the right to demand a PDF version of any assigned textbook, >> versus a hardcopy edition. ?We have lots of tree huggers around here, >> worried about "green" and unsustainability. ?To quote one of my >> colleagues (from her blog): >> >> "We need the text book companies to print thousands of copies of new >> textbooks every year, not so the authors can make money, though they >> make a little, but so the companies can make money... Do some central >> planning, and if the government can't do that without going through >> corporations, then it is time to [do it ourselves]". >> > > Hmmmm, Lindsey reports her blog taken off line by Google thought > police (or does someone else have that power -- under the table deal > with China, to outsource censorship?). ?Truly, it had some swear > words, I noticed them too (kept a copy, lots of us did). > Hey, I'm between meetings here, just wanted to quick amend and extend: had interview contact with Lindsey and I'd misinterpreted what happened. She decided herself it wasn't enough in line with her own policies re hate speech, didn't accuse Google by name in her Myspace writings about it, took it down herself. I'd reached that conclusion on my own (asking only rhetorically if someone else had the power), probably because paranoid. I apologize for blowing up at Google, pent up frustration with the search box (upper left) coming through as well. I've worried about Chinese censors before, lets see if I can find that old blog post (using search box...): http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2006/01/memo-re-google-in-china.html (I can only find that through the main Google search engine, but typing Memo in upper left of the right blog doesn't find it, nor does the word Blogger work, nor does "First Amendment" in quotes). Kirby > She's got some other blogs planned. ?Fair warning about Google (the > search feature within blogs is also anemic, could be we're seeing an > over-stretched infrastructure here, wouldn't surprise anyone). > > I didn't see anyone liking the "PDF option" option yet, except on some > of the student organizer blogs. ?I'm guessing most teachers are too > comfortably middle class to wanna rock the boat around gratuitous tree > killing. > > I also got some hate mail (from Florida) claiming Portland has no > right to subvert the authority of CS departments by phasing in > Pythonic math with no direction from them. ?I pointed out we're > working closely with MIT and various Silicon Forest companies with a > strong CS track record, don't need to work with universities in > Florida, or anyone kowtowing to ETS for that matter. > > Such is life in the fast lane, back to work, > > Kirby > From missive at hotmail.com Mon Aug 3 00:27:49 2009 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 02:57:49 +0430 Subject: [Edu-sig] [ANNC] pybotwar-0.3 Message-ID: pybotwar is a fun and educational game where players create computer programs to control simulated robots to compete in a battle arena. http://pybotwar.googlecode.com/ pybotwar uses pybox2d for the physical simulation, and uses pygame and pygsear for the visualization. pybotwar is released under GPLv3. Changes in pybotwar-0.3: - make tarball extract in to versioned directory _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx From cool-rr at cool-rr.com Mon Aug 3 16:23:29 2009 From: cool-rr at cool-rr.com (cool-RR) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 17:23:29 +0300 Subject: [Edu-sig] PythonTurtle Message-ID: Hello PSF, I wanted to show you a little side project that I have just released. Here is its website: http://pythonturtle.com Which explains everything you need to know about it. You probably the know the turtle.py module which is part of the standard library of Python: I was aware of it when I decided to start this project. The main difference between PythonTurtle and the turtle module is that PythonTurtle is a standalone application, easier to use and with illustrated help screens. Ram. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andre.roberge at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:28:19 2009 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 13:28:19 -0300 Subject: [Edu-sig] PythonTurtle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7528bcdd0908030928l11205045g5419d80925ec8bfc@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 11:23 AM, cool-RR wrote: > Hello PSF, > > I wanted to show you a little side project that I have just released. > > Here is its website: http://pythonturtle.com > Which explains everything you need to know about it. > Any chance you might release the source as well for people who are not on Windows based computers? Andr? > > You probably the know the turtle.py module which is part of the standard > library of Python: I was aware of it when I decided to start this project. > The main difference between PythonTurtle and the turtle module is that > PythonTurtle is a standalone application, easier to use and with illustrated > help screens. > > Ram. > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andre.roberge at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:31:29 2009 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 13:31:29 -0300 Subject: [Edu-sig] PythonTurtle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7528bcdd0908030931wc73d450y3b9a409a9056ab09@mail.gmail.com> Oops, sorry about my previous question. I found the link for the source at the bottom. Andr? On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 11:23 AM, cool-RR wrote: > Hello PSF, > > I wanted to show you a little side project that I have just released. > > Here is its website: http://pythonturtle.com > Which explains everything you need to know about it. > > You probably the know the turtle.py module which is part of the standard > library of Python: I was aware of it when I decided to start this project. > The main difference between PythonTurtle and the turtle module is that > PythonTurtle is a standalone application, easier to use and with illustrated > help screens. > > Ram. > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From da.ajoy at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:43:48 2009 From: da.ajoy at gmail.com (Daniel Ajoy) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:43:48 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] PythonTurtle Message-ID: PythonTurtle A learning environment for Python suitable for beginners and children, inspired by Logo. PythonTurtle strives to provide the lowest-threshold way to learn Python. Students command an interactive Python shell (similar to the IDLE development environment) and use Python functions to move a turtle displayed on the screen. An illustrated help screen introduces the student to the basics of Python programming while demonstrating how to move the turtle. http://pythonturtle.com/ From kirby.urner at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 21:05:05 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:05:05 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] poking some dying logs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Edward Cherlin wrote: > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:36 PM, kirby urner wrote: >> I'd like to make another plug for including this title on the edu-sig home page: >> >> http://www.skylit.com/mathandpython.html >> >> Ian thought it was too much a hybrid of CS and math, not an elegant >> amalgamation, though I don't have has remarks in front of me at the >> moment. ?Steve was gonna get back to us. ?Andre thought he might work >> it onto the page... > > I like the concept but not the execution. The student doesn't find out > what properties of various data structures and mathematical objects > are fundamental. There is too much of the old style of telling > students what to learn, and neither explaining why nor allowing > students to discover. I find it annoying that the book gives complex > number examples, but shies away from actually using complex > arithmetic. Far more CS could be introduced at the level of the math > being used. > > The book uses Python, but none of the very capable math software > available beyond graphing calculators. I prefer Ken Iverson's > approach, in which he taught how to write programs to do algebraic > manipulations and symbolic differentiation. > > Does anybody know these authors? Can we engage them in a process to > improve what they have done? > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Maria Litvin > Phillips Academy, Andover, Massachusetts > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Gary Litvin > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Skylight Software, Inc. > Thanks for you feedback Edward. I have an all day meeting Aug 7 focusing on computer science teaching issues, hosted by the same lobbying group that showed me this book in the first place, have the complete text in PDF. My own response was the book wants to be taken seriously according to various "math text" criteria associated with 1900s curriculum writing, somewhat strict and formal, no silly pictures, very not like the new O'Reilly books. An old kind of pedagogy and, as such, a "specimen". However, there's useful stuff here and I'd like my students to go through it. I think the strategy might be to come to said Litvins' text with higher level Python skills that the book demands, so that even if the approach seems somewhat austere and intimidating, the Python skills themselves aren't all that high, something we get beyond in the Sandes book for example. So I imagine a teacher who is properly respectful of mathematical content, but doesn't discourage students from making snarky remarks about the level of Python, which everyone in this class supersedes, is far better at than this book requires. The "math" may be high level, but the Python is middle-grade, yellow belt, even white belt. I'm thinking teachers themselves need to be empowered to mix a good mix for their kids, are the alchemists with final authority, and putting all our eggs in any one textbook, or two, or three, or twenty, is not a good idea. The stuff I've published and made available for free at my web site is both higher level Python and higher level math, one might argue, and really anyone technically literate is in a position to publish a portfolio of such writings. We aren't waiting for the "authoritative set of textbooks", though we welcome more PDFs coming online, can always use more. That being said, many teachers *are* waiting for some "next big textbook" to come down the pipe. I'm not saying every school is in "launch mode" in 2009. But a lot of us are. We have all the tools we need, all the dots connected, plenty of teaching talent chomping at the bit, not waiting for anything, think starting the race is long overdue (oh wait, the gun fired years ago, we've been running all this time.... sometimes I forget I'm a race horse, pretty fast one, duh). Kirby > >> That was all months ago by now, so it make sense to raise the issue >> again, as the title does break new ground in some ways, has claim to >> being a math teaching book, yet uses a computer language (one most of >> us know). >> >> 'Concrete Mathematics' and 'The Art of Computer Programming' are both >> math books of course, amenable to a "through programming" approach. >> Jsoftware folks implemented the former in J, whereas the latter is in >> MMX already. >> >> Another hot button issue in Portland these days is whether families >> have the right to demand a PDF version of any assigned textbook, >> versus a hardcopy edition. ?We have lots of tree huggers around here, >> worried about "green" and unsustainability. ?To quote one of my >> colleagues (from her blog): >> >> "We need the text book companies to print thousands of copies of new >> textbooks every year, not so the authors can make money, though they >> make a little, but so the companies can make money... Do some central >> planning, and if the government can't do that without going through >> corporations, then it is time to [do it ourselves]". >> >> Anyway, just wanted to re-raise that as well. >> >> I mostly do my computer / technical reading on Safari, have no problem >> with recycling already printed books, have no problem with small press >> runs. ?But I can see where truck loads of spanking new 400 page math >> books, hot off the press, none containing any computer programming to >> speak of, let alone Mites, Sytes or Kites (honeycomb stuff, important >> to gnu-bees), would provoke a crisis in conscience for our more >> ethical. >> >> This is the kind of thing 15 year olds talk about. ?They're suspicious >> of adults who can't follow their logic (about saving trees), >> undermines adult authority to not have a response. ?So do we all favor >> an "opt out" option for hard copy textbooks? ?Say aye? ?Say nay? >> >> Kirby >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> > > > > -- > Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name > And Children are my nation. > The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. > http://earthtreasury.org/worknet (Edward Mokurai Cherlin) > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 00:27:12 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 15:27:12 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] poking some dying logs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Thanks for you feedback Edward. > > I have an all day meeting Aug 7 focusing on computer science teaching > issues, hosted by the same lobbying group that showed me this book in > the first place, have the complete text in PDF. > Here's the agenda for that meeting FYI: Goal: Identify steps to develop and establish a pilot digital math curriculum for 2010 deployment 08:30 - 09:00 - Arrival and continental breakfast 09:00 - 09:15 - Welcome and Introductions 09:15 - 09:30 - Review and discussion of workshop objectives 09:15 - 10:15 - Current state of Oregon discrete mathematics standards (Bruce Schafer) 10:15 - 10:45 - Insights and discussion from current discrete math / CS HS teachers (Greg Ptaszynski, Don Kirkwood) 10:45 - 11:00 - Break 11:00 - 12:15 - Digital Math module presentation and discussion, e.g. CS Unplugged (Chris Brooks, Rob Bryant) 12:15 - 1:00 - Lunch 1:00 - 2:30 - Brainstorming and open discussion about CS / digital math module integration into discrete math offeirng 2:30 - 3:00 - Identify next actions and owners 3:00 - 3:15 - Final wrap-up I'm going from Institute for Science, Engineering and Public Policy (ISEPP), same think tank I represented at Pycon this year, delivered that workshop with Holden. Pictures of my nametag, Blip TV from my talk, all in circulation for some months now, in case any of these guys challenge me for bona fides, plus I was IEEE Dymaxion Clown on election night (Obama wins). Be that as at may, Lindsey and I plan not to do any formal presentations, not our turn to show off (I'll likely talk about Python some, remind 'em of the many VM options -- probably experiment with all of them depending on the lesson, e.g. I've showcased using JFC for biginteger features in Jython, useful for segments on RSA (the algorithm, not the African nation -- good example of namespace collision, dot notation to the rescue!)). The Litvins text is likely to get some focus as well. Deployment of our 2010 curriculum in an O'Reilly Safari like context (or Safari itself) would be one of our ISEPP threads i.e. we're not interested in promoting "reams of paper" style publishing or gratuitous "tree mowing" -- too oxymoronic, to have this futuristic curriculum and yet cling to obsolete (not to mention unethical) content delivery methods. Students wouldn't take us at all seriously. Note that we're not talking "all Portland schools", though that would be optimal (to have a DM track offering in every high school). Kirby From missive at hotmail.com Wed Aug 5 03:01:14 2009 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 05:31:14 +0430 Subject: [Edu-sig] [ANNC] pybotwar-0.4 Message-ID: pybotwar is a fun and educational game where players create computer programs to control simulated robots to compete in a battle arena. http://pybotwar.googlecode.com/ pybotwar uses pybox2d for the physical simulation, and uses pygame and pygsear for the visualization. pybotwar is released under GPLv3. Changes in pybotwar-0.4: - added display of robot status - added configuration file for easier testing of various options - remove / don't remove dead robots - robot max health - physics values (force, torque, mass, bullet speed) - add non graphics mode (for much faster resolution of battles) - fixed cannon heating going below zero _________________________________________________________________ Drag n? drop?Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live? Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx From echerlin at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 08:45:19 2009 From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 23:45:19 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] PythonTurtle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Daniel Ajoy wrote: > PythonTurtle > > ? ?A learning environment for Python suitable for beginners and children, inspired by Logo. > > > > PythonTurtle strives to provide the lowest-threshold way to learn Python. Students command an interactive Python shell (similar to the IDLE development environment) and use Python functions to move a turtle displayed on the screen. An illustrated help screen introduces the student to the basics of Python programming while demonstrating how to move the turtle. > > http://pythonturtle.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig I think that Walter Bender's Turtle Art has an even lower threshold. You can snap together blocks representing turtle commands, and then use one of the Python-programmable blocks to add a single Python expression or call a Python program from a file. I have, for example, a graphing session in which a fixed TA program draws the coordinate axes, and then graphs whatever function the user has inserted in the programmable block. We have such environments in Sugar for Python, Logo, and Smalltalk. Your environment looks ideal for the next step up. Would you like to get together on some lessons in math, programming, and Computer Science? -- Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. http://earthtreasury.org/worknet (Edward Mokurai Cherlin) From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 23:14:45 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 14:14:45 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] more on digital math... Message-ID: Here's a blog post about the meeting below. Our venue was Sherwood High School, some 15 miles or so south of the Portland city limits. http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2009/08/education-planning.html I don't mention Python much in the post, but that's a language many assumed we'd be using, although our facilitator might be more of a Ruby guy (definitely a CTO and programmer). Speaking of which, Chris shared his sense that the pendulum is swinging *away from* a kind of snobbishness about programming, where you'd think "coding" was the more menial role, the high powered being "system architects" and so on who don't every write in a computer language. He thinks that's going away. I'm thinking that might have something to do with TDD, i.e. this idea of specifying everything in UML and flow charts, getting buy off from the customer, and then writing a turn key system based on this spec, is "old skool" and considered "not working" by today's standards. Today's workflow is more like what R0ml proposes: getting working code out in front and continually reworking, working with the customer in a free and open process. We still have milestones though i.e. "feature freeze on the GUI by September" would be a goal, even if that slips a little. People agree its uncool to wait until the last possible minute to request modifications. I think the movie-making industry probably has lots of valuable analogies, which we'll tap into, as geeks break into television more successfully. Two Python specific feedbacks from that meeting: A. Another Title One of the teachers is using this book, which was assigned to him (he didn't choose it): Python Programming in Context by Miller and Ranum: http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3800868585/ http://www.amazon.com/Python-Programming-Context-Bradley-Miller/dp/0763746029/ He noted that "commenting" or "how to comment" is not in the index and that the code itself contains no examples of commenting. That may be to "save paper" but, if so, is just another example of how committing computer science books to paper is close to oxymoronic. We should be using Crunchy, wikis, blogs, PDFs, media you might update. There's a lot of turtle stuff in the above title, but I'm not sure to what extent, if any, it works of Gregor's version. The Litvins pythonic math book, though available in hard copy, is on a "just in time" printing system e.g. it's about exhausted from Amazon already, so they'll order up a few more, restock, and so on. At least you don't get a huge back log needing to be remaindered, because of errors or because they're all in Python 2.6. The 3.x version of the Litvins text is currently in progress. B. Is IDLE Supported? Another piece of feedback came from this PSU professor who really likes the language but found IDLE to be almost a show stopper on her Mac, as it'd crash and then not reboot because of some "socket error". I mentioned killing zombie snakes in the task manager on Windows but she assured me this wasn't the problem, plus her students reported the same thing. Her impression was IDLE is not supported and that there's no one to turn to when your IDLE is crashing. I said I'd look into this for her. I've not had this specific problem, though I do need to kill zombie snakes on occasion. Most of these high schools run Windows on cannibalized repurposed machines. A case with a valid Windows license on the box is what they look for, to give them license to have a running Windows inside. I didn't say anything about switching to Ubuntu in this context as I think vendors offering school-wide solutions need to do their own vending around that. Some of the teachers were actually surprised to learn Python was free. They're used to thinking in terms of expensive corporate apps like Office, which they get at bargain basement prices because they're schools. This keeps them feeling grateful whereas there is built-in distrust, suspicion, and/or ignorance about any software that's legally free and re-copyable at will, even on the Windows platform. Python would be a "foot in the door" for FOSS in that sense (might be IronPython). As Lindsey puts it, corporate America doesn't like FOSS because the CEO of company A wants to be able to pick up the phone and shout expletives and a CEO of company B, about how you'd better fix the fucking piece of shit right now or we'll see you in court. That's not geek culture really, where prima donna rule, work on stuff when they feel like it, don't think anyone should tell them what to work on next. These are of course stereotypes, but with enough truth in 'em to be worth representing. Anyway, just some initial comments based on our planning session. I'm sure I'll have more to say as we continue collaborating (this was just the opening salvo). Kirby On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:27 PM, kirby urner wrote: > Here's the agenda for that meeting FYI: > > Goal: Identify steps to develop and establish a pilot digital math > curriculum for 2010 deployment > > 08:30 - 09:00 - Arrival and continental breakfast > 09:00 - 09:15 - Welcome and Introductions > 09:15 - 09:30 - Review and discussion of workshop objectives > 09:15 - 10:15 - Current state of Oregon discrete mathematics standards > (Bruce Schafer) > 10:15 - 10:45 - Insights and discussion from current discrete math / > CS HS teachers (Greg Ptaszynski, Don Kirkwood) > 10:45 - 11:00 - Break > 11:00 - 12:15 - Digital Math module presentation and discussion, e.g. > CS Unplugged (Chris Brooks, Rob Bryant) > 12:15 - 1:00 - Lunch > 1:00 - 2:30 - Brainstorming and open discussion about CS / digital > math module integration into discrete math offeirng > 2:30 - 3:00 - Identify next actions and owners > 3:00 - 3:15 - Final wrap-up > > I'm going from Institute for Science, Engineering and Public Policy > (ISEPP), same think tank I represented at Pycon this year, delivered > that workshop with Holden. Pictures of my nametag, Blip TV from my > talk, all in circulation for some months now, in case any of these > guys challenge me for bona fides, plus I was IEEE Dymaxion Clown on > election night (Obama wins). > > Be that as at may, Lindsey and I plan not to do any formal > presentations, not our turn to show off (I'll likely talk about Python > some, remind 'em of the many VM options -- probably experiment with > all of them depending on the lesson, e.g. I've showcased using JFC for > biginteger features in Jython, useful for segments on RSA (the > algorithm, not the African nation -- good example of namespace > collision, dot notation to the rescue!)). The Litvins text is likely > to get some focus as well. > > Deployment of our 2010 curriculum in an O'Reilly Safari like context > (or Safari itself) would be one of our ISEPP threads ?i.e. we're not > interested in promoting "reams of paper" style publishing or > gratuitous "tree mowing" -- too oxymoronic, to have this futuristic > curriculum and yet cling to obsolete (not to mention unethical) > content delivery methods. ?Students wouldn't take us at all seriously. > ?Note that we're not talking "all Portland schools", though that would > be optimal (to have a DM track offering in every high school). > > Kirby > From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org Sun Aug 9 00:40:14 2009 From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 15:40:14 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] more on digital math... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: kirby urner wrote: > ... Another piece of feedback came from this PSU professor who really > likes the language but found IDLE to be almost a show stopper on her > Mac, as it'd crash and then not reboot because of some "socket error". > > I mentioned killing zombie snakes in the task manager on Windows but > she assured me this wasn't the problem, plus her students reported the > same thing. Her impression was IDLE is not supported and that there's > no one to turn to when your IDLE is crashing. I said I'd look into > this for her. I've not had this specific problem, though I do need to > kill zombie snakes on occasion. My hope is tat with Snow Leopard we get to a more stable Tkinter, and because of that, a more stable Idle on OSX. I've no inside knowledge about whether that will come true, but I'm hoping the Aqua vesion of Tk will do the trick. I see a little movement of fixes connected to Idle (as in I finally got a note from someone about an old Idle Patch of mine), so there is definitely some reason to hope. If Tk is not stable, there is no hope for Idle. If Tk gets stable, I think we ought to be able to repair the Idle bugs. I personally think Idle is crucial to learning Python easily. If Idle does wind up broken, perhaps the better educational scroungers could rustle up a few shekels or skilled software hors to fix it. I'd make sure they know about numpy and/or scipy as well, because having easy matrix calculations is a _big_ win as you get into 3-D calculations. --Scott David Daniels Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 01:38:34 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 16:38:34 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] more on digital math... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Scott David Daniels wrote: > kirby urner wrote: >> >> ... Another piece of feedback came from this PSU professor who really >> likes the language but found IDLE to be almost a show stopper on her >> Mac, as it'd crash and then not reboot because of some "socket error". >> >> I mentioned killing zombie snakes in the task manager on Windows but >> she assured me this wasn't the problem, plus her students reported the >> same thing. ?Her impression was IDLE is not supported and that there's >> no one to turn to when your IDLE is crashing. ?I said I'd look into >> this for her. ?I've not had this specific problem, though I do need to >> kill zombie snakes on occasion. > > My hope is tat with Snow Leopard we get to a more stable Tkinter, and > because of that, a more stable Idle on OSX. ?I've no inside knowledge > about whether that will come true, but I'm hoping the Aqua vesion of > Tk will do the trick. ?I see a little movement of fixes connected to > Idle (as in I finally got a note from someone about an old Idle Patch > of mine), so there is definitely some reason to hope. ?If Tk is not > stable, there is no hope for Idle. ?If Tk gets stable, I think we > ought to be able to repair the Idle bugs. > Do we think of Tk as being stable on Windows and/or Linux? We do yes? This might be another argument for steering clear of over-priced Cadillac OS with too many bells and whistles. I know "blaming Apple" isn't popular, but if learning Python easily is really that important, then maybe school districts will think twice about paying that much for something that's unsupportive of Tk. Of course this doesn't fix the problem of not being able to run another Tk process within IDLE that easily, i.e. the old Tk in Tk problem. We need to teach how to drop into the shell. I was thinking Wing IDE 101, a free version of Wing, might be the answer. Or Eclipse? IDLE is a great tool, but has some problems. IPython... Going with wxPython e.g Pyshell might be the way to go, but I'm not sure Patrick is interested in those any more, or what the levels of problem might be with PyCrust on a Mac... I have very limited experience with Macs except I admire them from afar. http://www.wingware.com/wingide-101 > I personally think Idle is crucial to learning Python easily. ?If > Idle does wind up broken, perhaps the better educational scroungers > could rustle up a few shekels or skilled software hors to fix it. > I've always thought so too. So easy and it's there right out of the box. > I'd make sure they know about numpy and/or scipy as well, because > having easy matrix calculations is a _big_ win as you get into > 3-D calculations. > True. Pygeo depends on these features, and VPython, as a 3D projective geometry application. Kirby > --Scott David Daniels > Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From gregor.lingl at aon.at Sun Aug 9 18:42:18 2009 From: gregor.lingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:42:18 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] more on digital math... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A7EFC6A.80600@aon.at> kirby urner schrieb: --... > Two Python specific feedbacks from that meeting: > > A. Another Title > > One of the teachers is using this book, which was assigned to him (he > didn't choose it): > > Python Programming in Context by Miller and Ranum: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3800868585/ > http://www.amazon.com/Python-Programming-Context-Bradley-Miller/dp/0763746029/ > ... > There's a lot of turtle stuff in the above title, but I'm not sure to > what extent, if any, it works of Gregor's version. > Programming in Context uses cturtle, a slightly augmented version of an early version of my xturtle module. The additions proposed by Brad Miller have found their way into turtle.py. So turtle.py has definitely the full functionality needed in the book. However there have been made some changes in the naming of certain functions/methods in order that turtle.py complies with the naming conventions for modules of the standard library, e. g. onClick -> onclick and things like this. Anyway it should not only be possible but also very easy to adapt the programs of the book to run with turtle.py The book has an appendix with a description of the API of cturtle, which can easily compared with Python's docs for the turtle module to find out which are the differences. Regards, Gregor From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org Sun Aug 9 18:59:49 2009 From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 09:59:49 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] more on digital math... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: kirby urner wrote: > Do we think of Tk as being stable on Windows and/or Linux? We do yes? > > This might be another argument for steering clear of over-priced > Cadillac OS with too many bells and whistles. I know "blaming Apple" > isn't popular, but if learning Python easily is really that important, > then maybe school districts will think twice about paying that much > for something that's unsupportive of Tk. Or it may be caused simply by the fact that our Unix solution has always been assuming that X11 is the way to get to the screen and mouse. OSX has its own display system, and the interface to that system is what is at issue. Tcl/Tk is not, in my humble opinion, mature on OSX yet. wxPython does better, but wxPython suffers a bit from the "this is a collection of useful stuff" rather than "this is a designed interface" structure. I'd guess half the developers are happy with that, and the other half find it drives them batty (as you can guess I am among the latter group, although some will insist that I really didn't need much driving). --Scott David Daniels Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org From missive at hotmail.com Sun Aug 9 22:26:31 2009 From: missive at hotmail.com (Lee Harr) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 00:56:31 +0430 Subject: [Edu-sig] [ANNC] pybotwar-0.5 Message-ID: pybotwar is a fun and educational game where players create computer programs to control simulated robots to compete in a battle arena. http://pybotwar.googlecode.com/ pybotwar uses pybox2d for the physical simulation, and uses pygame and pygsear for the visualization. pybotwar is released under GPLv3. Changes in pybotwar-0.5: - added tournament mode - added explosive shells - robots are now damaged by colliding with walls or other robots - added damage sensor - added gyro sensor - added configurable cannon reload time - added robot statistics database - added time limit for robot startup/ initialization - health bar changes color below 30% health - fixed force/ torque possibly going over 100% - fixed problem with non-integer force/ torque values - each robot gets its own log file in test mode - send robot errors to log file - use optparse for cmd line options _________________________________________________________________ More than messages?check out the rest of the Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 03:28:08 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:28:08 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Fwd: [Diversity] Okay, here's the deal. In-Reply-To: References: <98DA9473-03CD-4E4D-A18C-7AAAE88E7B65@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here's something I posted recently to the new diversity list (check list of lists), thought I'd better run it by here as I don't think Andre yet knows of his plan to turn edu-sig community page into French only (with English backup for disabled). I've got the usual "party line" about reaching out to students through the user group infrastructure, hoping to drum up exhibits for Vern to judge and share with us in Atlanta. There's another post before this, almost as long, that sets the stage, but I'm reluctant to cross-post too much. Speaking of cross-posting (and not doing it (but Diversity is a closed archive)), here's a pointer to the Wittgenstein list I've been frequenting of late (my specialty at Princeton, his later philosophy in particular). I'm doing a segment on the "is" operator in Python. Comments welcome. http://www.freelists.org/post/wittrs/mix-of-investigation-and-live-logic-re-understanding I'm pumping some Python into philosophy discourse in much the same way I use it to enliven math learning. I think academic philosophers are missing the boat in ignoring live executable logic, of the kind Leibniz hoped we'd have, in favor of pre-computer propositional calculus stuff ala Bertie Russell & Co. Prop-calc *anticipated* a lot of the skills we'd be needing, but staying stuck in that rut, out of a secret desire to collude with peers on dividing up intellectual turf a certain way (inter-departmental relations), doesn't well serve our students. Like Robert Hansen on math-teach talks up how you can go along for months and years in computer science without ever meeting or talking with a mathematician, as if that's a "good thing". In my school, we were taught that hyper-specialization brought us to the brink of species extinction, so there's this "never again" bias. Anyway, back to work, hope a few of you have the patience for my storytelling below... (true stories, with lots of pictures to back 'em up, so more fun than just science fiction eh?). Kirby PS: also enjoying Math 2.0 (mathfuture) list, Ed Cherlin among us also (Maria an effective recruiter). ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kirby urner Date: Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Diversity] Okay, here's the deal. To: diversity at python.org On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Rami Chowdhury wrote: > I'm sorry, I'd just like to check that I'm reading you correctly. So you're > saying the Python community should consider sponsoring / supporting: > ? ? ? ?- FOSS 'covens' Hi Rami -- Thanks for requesting clarification. ?I'm not suggesting I'm that easy to follow, try to pack a lot in, lose a proportion of readers that way (malesh). I don't think PSF needs to lift a finger to sustain the reality of FOSS covens and FOSS witches in Oregon. ?We've already worked that into our lore, have a long history on that score pre-dating FOSS. Dunno if you've been to our town, but it's quite common to see bumper stickers with five pointed pentacles with the word Clergy underneath -- might be the Intel parking lot. http://www.thejukejoint.com/bumperstickers.html ?(not that different from New Orleans) FOSS witches Gabrielle and Selena are more into Postgres as a specialty (they presented on Code 'n Splode at OS Bridge, our latest open source conference, developed in response to OSCON sharing the glory with San Jose, after choosing Portland seven years in a row (I think it was)). "World Domination" was our theme, per this banner: http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3639256600/in/set-72157619963850814/ ?(banner) http://opensourcebridge.org/sessions/34 ?(the talk I gave, not as hands-on as the write-up sounds, more a lobbying meeting) > ? ? ? ?- Programming classes / activities for high school math / science > students > > I'd like to say I think the latter is a great idea... > More on Digital Math track (DM), versus Analog Math track (AM -- traditional precalc - calc): http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=6777885&tstart=0 There's this PSF plan to foster user groups internally to high schools and then have students forward their work to our Pycon-level "watcher" (like a talent scout, like a dog show judge) for possible inclusion in a "poster session" sharing floorspace with company sponsors (Google might even sponsor posters from Summer of Code or whatever) either inside or outside the main exhibit hall in Atlanta. This plan was hatched by the Python in Education committee aka edu-sig and our watcher is a man named Vern Ceder. ?Our edu-sig web page (part of Python.org) is managed from Canada by a university president. ?We may redo the whole page in French by default, with the English version for those who still need it -- haven't run this by Guido yet though. Mirroring the edu-sig page in multiple languages seems a good idea for *some* web host to consider... Anyway, the lobbying required to get agile programming in a hybrid relationship with math content at the high school level is a long uphill slog. ?We have many allies. ?The Litvins text used at Phillipps Exeter, one of the USA's stronger elite academies, is looking pretty good, definitely a step in the right direction (being upgraded to work with Python 3.x). The calculator companies want to postpone the day when we use Python as a calculator. ?Their idea of heaven is to emulate a TI on a Pentium (or better) such that the Intel CPU becomes a slave to Texas Instruments software. That's not so popular in my neck of the woods (Silicon Forest), but the fact remains that, come September this year, only a lucky few will be learning any Python in one of our several pilot programs around the state (in Sherwood, LEP High, Saturday Academy or what not). In terms of gender sensitivity, given there's a lot of green field development involved with running a whole new math track through high school (the most optimistic outcome) or even just a new course, it pays to have gender studies specialists on board early, which is where Dr. Tag comes in. Does that mean we try to hide the fact of FOSS witches? ?No, Tag and Lindsey are friends (per picture below). ?Lindsey is also known to some in her inner circle as "miss torture taxi" (a nick name) as her work history includes helping with computerized maintenance of those Gulfstreams owned by General Dynamics (her company's client), some run out of nearby Evergreen (though her base was Savannah). http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3832823886/ ?(small coven) http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3751824838/ (Dr. Tag @ Linus Pauling House, a local HQS) http://wweek.com/editorial/3315/8562/ ?(local paper re "torture taxis" -- part of our local lore (esoterica)) http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/sets/72157621643139200/ (Lindsey at work (salvage successful)) Note that Lindsey ended up hating her work and came here as a political and economic refugee, same as many others. She's unusual in having been management level on her totem pole, having a clear view to higher levels, but mostly her job was to ride herd and not code. ?Her background in technical topics would be more in the area of Perl and SVG. These days she's focusing more on her musicianship, wanting to be a rock star in the more literal sense. ?Anytime I suggest plugging her back in to some corporate setting, such as Sisters of Providence (my client for some 15 years), she gets all jittery (PTSD). The stress some geeks endure has to do with having only Pointy Haired Bosses and no Dilberts at some level. ?That's a problem with USA culture: ?people disconnect from technical subjects to become politician-managers of the clueless variety, while in some other systems you get more engineers towards the top (we get that in pockets, but mostly politicos run her onto the rocks). At least in Portland she's finding CTOs she respects, of both genders and then some :). Anyway, just rambling, like doing a little PR for Portland now and then. ?Our local goddess, Portlandia, has a boyfriend in Gothenberg, Sweden, where I heard Guido give a talk on the origins of Python. It's for people in technical domains anxious to get on with their work without wasting a lot of time on the intricacies of computer science. It's in that spirit that we're introducing it to pilot schools, giving an added international spin thanks to the new Unicode base -- still haven't seen much source code in Arabic though, need to fix that before going much further with the Baghdad proposal. ?That's another aspect of Diversity in Python: ?getting snippets of Python code using top-level naming that's not always Latin-1. ?I've been doing slides around that, mostly showing Chinese: http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2007/11/unicode.html http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2008/05/chinese-names-in-python.html Kirby ?????? ??ss From andre.roberge at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 04:34:04 2009 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 23:34:04 -0300 Subject: [Edu-sig] Fwd: [Diversity] Okay, here's the deal. In-Reply-To: References: <98DA9473-03CD-4E4D-A18C-7AAAE88E7B65@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7528bcdd0908191934p41baaaa9n3823298371ef5452@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 10:28 PM, kirby urner wrote: > Here's something I posted recently to the new diversity list (check > list of lists), thought I'd better run it by here as I don't think > Andre yet knows of his plan to turn edu-sig community page into French > only (with English backup for disabled). > Please, don't start rumours like this, some people might take you seriously. At worst (or would it be "at best"...), I might choose to use Canadian English spelling instead of American English. Andr? From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 05:03:54 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:03:54 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Fwd: [Diversity] Okay, here's the deal. In-Reply-To: <7528bcdd0908191934p41baaaa9n3823298371ef5452@mail.gmail.com> References: <98DA9473-03CD-4E4D-A18C-7AAAE88E7B65@gmail.com> <7528bcdd0908191934p41baaaa9n3823298371ef5452@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Andre Roberge wrote: > On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 10:28 PM, kirby urner wrote: >> Here's something I posted recently to the new diversity list (check >> list of lists), thought I'd better run it by here as I don't think >> Andre yet knows of his plan to turn edu-sig community page into French >> only (with English backup for disabled). >> > > Please, don't start rumours like this, some people might take you > seriously. ?At worst (or would it be "at best"...), I might choose to > use Canadian English spelling instead of American English. > > Andr? > Only part of it was a rumor but yeah, no one knows what your plans are except you at this point. My suggestions for enhancing that page have so far been ignored. Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 05:24:27 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:24:27 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Fwd: [Diversity] Okay, here's the deal. In-Reply-To: References: <98DA9473-03CD-4E4D-A18C-7AAAE88E7B65@gmail.com> <7528bcdd0908191934p41baaaa9n3823298371ef5452@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ????? Urner 's CP4E ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????????. On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 8:03 PM, kirby urner wrote: > On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Andre Roberge wrote: >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 10:28 PM, kirby urner wrote: >>> Here's something I posted recently to the new diversity list (check >>> list of lists), thought I'd better run it by here as I don't think >>> Andre yet knows of his plan to turn edu-sig community page into French >>> only (with English backup for disabled). >>> >> >> Please, don't start rumours like this, some people might take you >> seriously. ?At worst (or would it be "at best"...), I might choose to >> use Canadian English spelling instead of American English. >> >> Andr? >> > > Only part of it was a rumor but yeah, no one knows what your plans are > except you at this point. ?My suggestions for enhancing that page have > so far been ignored. > > Kirby > Just to be more specific, I was hoping to have the Litvins text listed before my lobbying summit meeting in Sherwood. That's all water under the bridge. http://www.skylit.com/mathandpython.html http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2009/08/education-planning.html I've explained to my peers that edu-sig page is moribund at this time, frozen, much as it was during my tenure (because I failed to make transition from CVS to SVN). Much of the text is still as I left it, with some rearrangements: http://web.archive.org/web/20060610022428/http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/edu-sig/ There's also the new title Python Programming in Context which is of direct interest to educators. http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3800868585/ Kirby BTW, I wonder how this stuff reads in Arabic (thinking about our mirror... Tag?): """ More and more, Python is making inroads at all levels in education. Python offers an interactive environment in which to explore procedural, functional and object oriented approaches to problem solving. ???? ????? ? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????????? ?? ???? ???????. ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???????? ????????? ??????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???????. Its high level data structures and clear syntax make it an ideal first language, while the large number of existing libraries make it suitable to tackle almost any programming tasks. ?????? ???????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??????. Edu-sig, through its mailing list , provides an informal venue for comparing notes and discussing future possibilities for Python in education. ???? - ??? ? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?????????? ? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ???????? ?? ???? ???????. Its origins trace to Guido van Rossum's pioneering Computer Programming for Everybody (CP4E) , a grant proposal accepted by DARPA, and which provided a modicum of funding in 1999. ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? Rossum ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? (CP4E) ? ????? ????? DARPA ????? ? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ??? 1999. Membership includes, but is not limited to, educators using Python in their courses, independent developers, and authors of educational materials. Discussion focuses on Python use at all levels, from beginning to advanced applications. ??? ?? ??????? ? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ? ???????? ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?? ?????? ?????????. ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ????????? ? ?? ???? ??? ????????? ????????. ????? Urner 'sCP4E ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????????. """ My apologies to those not getting the right unicode translation. I'm thinking on a diversity list, we should expect more stuff like this, not less, over time. Kirby From vceder at canterburyschool.org Thu Aug 20 05:32:16 2009 From: vceder at canterburyschool.org (Vern Ceder) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 23:32:16 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Poster session is a go for PyCon 2010 Message-ID: <4A8CC3C0.8020507@canterburyschool.org> Hi everyone, In case you're not following the PyCon organizers' list, yesterday the idea of a poster session at PyCon was officially adopted, with James Taylor and myself sharing the coordination "ownership". The current plan is to have a full poster session (not opposite any of the talk slots), with both attended and unattended posters possible, open to all topics, disciplines, whatever. In the next few weeks, I'll be recruiting for poster proposal reviewers, etc. but right now I just wanted to get the initial word out. My thanks to everyone who helped nudge this along in whatever way, in particular Kirby, Laura, and Steve Holden (for the idea). Cheers, Vern -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose ----------------------------- Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 vceder at canterburyschool.org; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 05:48:26 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:48:26 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Poster session is a go for PyCon 2010 In-Reply-To: <4A8CC3C0.8020507@canterburyschool.org> References: <4A8CC3C0.8020507@canterburyschool.org> Message-ID: Congratulations Vern. Perhaps you could send verbiage describing this plan to edu-sig page webmaster for inclusion, along with Litvins etc. I have a request in to receive back control of this page in 30 days if nothing happens, we'll see how that goes. Kirby On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Vern Ceder wrote: > Hi everyone, > > In case you're not following the PyCon organizers' list, yesterday the idea > of a poster session at PyCon was officially adopted, with James Taylor and > myself sharing the coordination "ownership". > > The current plan is to have a full poster session (not opposite any of the > talk slots), with both attended and unattended posters possible, open to all > topics, disciplines, whatever. > > In the next few weeks, I'll be recruiting for poster proposal reviewers, > etc. but right now I just wanted to get the initial word out. > > My thanks to everyone who helped nudge this along in whatever way, in > particular Kirby, Laura, and Steve Holden (for the idea). > > Cheers, > Vern > > -- > This time for sure! > ? -Bullwinkle J. Moose > ----------------------------- > Vern Ceder, Director of Technology > Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 > vceder at canterburyschool.org; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 17:21:08 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 08:21:08 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] [Diversity] Fwd: Okay, here's the deal. In-Reply-To: <20e5c9660908200213w7f46c1f6k2f04902dd3c8321f@mail.gmail.com> References: <98DA9473-03CD-4E4D-A18C-7AAAE88E7B65@gmail.com> <7528bcdd0908191934p41baaaa9n3823298371ef5452@mail.gmail.com> <20e5c9660908200213w7f46c1f6k2f04902dd3c8321f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 2:13 AM, Michael Sparks wrote: > 2009/8/20 kirby urner : > .. >> There's also the new title Python Programming in Context which is of >> direct interest to educators. >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3800868585/ > > Wealthy educators you mean. > Meaning what, that it's in hardcopy? Not available for free as a PDF? These may be true statements. The Litvins text (different) is used at Phillipps Academy where one of the authors teachers, definitely an elite expensive school. My own curriculum writing is available for free. My classes through SaturdayAcademy.org have cost money, but then Paul Allen and people make scholarships available. In terms of what to export to the Middle East in the way of Pythonic math, we're wanting nothing of less quality than say Litvins i.e. that would mark the lower bound of what's acceptable, but this has nothing to do with being rich per se, more to do with getting more curriculum writing in Arabic and stuff (Hebrew whatever), likely a lot of it free and open source. Getting more Python source code in non-Latin-1 languages is what I'd call encouraging diversity, a concrete and obvious move, productive and with measurable benchmarks. Kirby > > Michael. > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 16:13:16 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:13:16 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] the kind of thing we might see at Pycon... Message-ID: >From the diversity list, just passing it on: http://micheinnz.livejournal.com/1080735.html Python features in this science experiment. Kirby From vceder at canterburyschool.org Fri Aug 21 16:19:15 2009 From: vceder at canterburyschool.org (Vern Ceder) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:19:15 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] the kind of thing we might see at Pycon... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A8EACE3.40800@canterburyschool.org> Kirby, Thanks for the link - that's indeed what we're hoping for, as far as student work is concerned. As soon as we get our submission guidelines finalized I'll make contact. If anyone else runs across similar (for some value of 'similar' ;) ) projects, please let me know. Thanks, Vern kirby urner wrote: >>From the diversity list, just passing it on: > > http://micheinnz.livejournal.com/1080735.html > > Python features in this science experiment. > > Kirby > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose ----------------------------- Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 vceder at canterburyschool.org; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 21:41:21 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:41:21 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] python lessons | piano lessons: learning to keyboard Message-ID: I'm thinking more could be made of this piano teacher business as what's needed are cultural templates (design patterns) that're already debugged, plus register as familiar. People have this picture of the geek squad or geek troubleshooter coming to your house to clean off the viruses, give a few pointers. Then there's the "fix my computer" store, sometimes a hobbyists basement or garage. In one case, the geek comes to you, in the other, you go to the geek. The piano teacher I'm thinking of has a rotating clientele and the students come to her for individualized instruction. The students are sometimes young, dropped off and picked up. If the parent wants to wait in the living room, while the 45 minutes tick by, that's maybe no problem. The thing about a piano teacher or lets convert that to Python teacher, is there's often this specific lineage or philosophy or school of thought i.e. not all piano teachers have the same approach to teaching. One piano teacher I know puts a great deal of emphasis on posture, including with conscious attention to the skeleton and muscles -- wants the student to share this appreciation, ergo lots of models of bones and joints laying around in the studio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3405834921/ (tools of the trade) Not all piano teachers are like Susan though, Python teachers either, though I am, given my focus on __ribs__. :) Guitar teaching is similar in that we'll find multiple approaches, some designed encourage autonomy i.e. some "learn guitar" books are for just teaching yourself, no teacher, no "guitar lessons" per se. But I'm thinking we're maybe entering an era where one-on-one Python tutoring or "Python lessons" is greeted as a way of learning "the new music" aka "the new literacy" ala CP4E (& R0ml). Speaking of CP4E, I'm curious about these web slides, some of the claims (e.g. edu-sig fell apart because Python is too important as a commercial tool to merit much dev time with the pre-employed as a focus): http://webpages.cs.luc.edu/~mt/Python-First/Py1.html ( by Michael Tobis of Ducks-in-a-Row ) More generally, I have a beef with player pianos and other turn of last century breakthroughs in automated music making, not having enough profile in CS lore, i.e. there's a lot of bleeping over to key bridges twixt programming and the arts: music and theater. When you enter a theater, they give you "a program", and "a script" is a program players (actors) follow. The computer programmer often treats the GUI or interface as a "stage" (end user as audience, passive consumer of code) whereas the coding is like "back stage" (ropes, scenery, inventory). Music is a notated execution language, complete with looping and even conditional branching, has the idea of a flow of control, as distinct from the static rendering in notation (as sheet music). A musical instrument is clearly "event driven". This excerpt from Wikipedia sounds a lot like a contemporary open standards agreement: """ A new full-scale roll format, playing all 88 notes, was agreed at an industry conference in Buffalo in 1908, the so called Buffalo Convention. This kept the 11? inch roll, but now had smaller holes spaced at 9 to the inch. Any player made anywhere in the world could now play any make of roll. Understanding the need for compatibility was the defining moment of the player industry. The consensus was key to avoiding a costly format war, which plagued almost every other form of entertainment media that followed roll music. """ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_piano The music world isn't just a source of teaching models, it's a source of design patterns more generally. Breaking down barriers between CS and the arts is something Vpython has helped with, PyGeo a good example (or should we say "math and art"?). http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/pygeo.html The lightning talk and open mic formats have a lot in common, leading to a recent diversity at python.org suggestion for more Python Open Mics. Musicians also travel in groups -- could be a dev team (reminds me of Alan, taking Plone on the road, often solo -- met up in Victoria for a sprint that time...). Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 04:35:01 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:35:01 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] some notes... Message-ID: Some of what's going on in my neck of the woods: Python:? ??????? __rib__ == __???__ I'm finding most editors incapable of mixing left and right facing scripts. CS Unplugged out of New Zealand is good for when either computers are unavailable -- or they don't yet have the capabilities we need. Apologies to those not getting the right Unicode glyphs in this font. Fortunately, we have @brampitoyo to help with these issues. More on PSF list about Dr. Tag and plans for new user groups willing to tackle not-Latin-1 features of Python 3.x. http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3844392134/ Obviously OLPC has done work in this area, also Plone, wxPython... I forget if I shared the Arabic version of edu-sig home page -- a first approximation only. More threads on diversity at python.org (some overlap in subscriber membership). Recent excerpt from email to Dr. Tag from me i.e. I am the author of the analysis below: I'm suspicious of the author's conclusion: "By and large, the issue about diversity seems to be one of not offending and upsetting people." This hearkens back to your observation that "westernized" means "unable to speak the truth" (in contrast to a Yemeni, not trying to impress anyone, being direct). North Americans used to have a reputation for directness. Is that being lost? In cultivating diplomatic skills, we're not wanting to train people to simply mask their true feelings. Improving communications skills doesn't mean getting better at hiding biases. This would be a lesson for open source developers: we treasure clarity over being nice to the point of obscure (inscrutability) -- because what's repressed has a way of surfacing elsewhere more uncontrolled than ever, including in outright violence. Also relevant: http://www.fsf.org/news/summit-on-women-in-free-software Looking forward to DjangoConf starting soon (here in FOSS capital). I sent TV clip idea for teaching OO to people interested in Python.TV Good exchange with Selena (OS Bridge co-chair) re Portland's "FOSS witch... FOSS coven" terminology (labeled as FUD by know-nothings). Been sharing some Python lore with Wittgenstein fans (obscure, esoteric philosopher of 1900s vintage). Kirby From gregor.lingl at aon.at Tue Aug 25 08:17:53 2009 From: gregor.lingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:17:53 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] some notes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A938211.6080003@aon.at> kirby urner schrieb: > Some of what's going on in my neck of the woods: > > > .... > Been sharing some Python lore with Wittgenstein fans (obscure, > esoteric philosopher of 1900s vintage). > > Hi Kirby, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittgenstein this seems not to be exactly the right characterization of Wittgenstein. Best wishes from Vienna, Gregor > Kirby > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From gregor.lingl at aon.at Tue Aug 25 17:30:25 2009 From: gregor.lingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:30:25 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] some notes...((partly) OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A940391.8080001@aon.at> kirby urner schrieb: > Been sharing some Python lore with Wittgenstein fans (obscure, > esoteric philosopher of 1900s vintage). > > Hi Kirby, again, as someone interested in architecture (hopefully not only of Buckminster Fuller) following the link of my previous post you might have noticed, that Ludwig Wittgenstein from 1926 to 1928 was heavily involved in building the so called Wittgenstein house or Stonborough House (together with Paul Engelmann, a friendly architect), one of the most modernist buildings in Vienna then.See e. g.: http://www.spiluttini.com/nextroom.php?id=1681 Incidentally it is located in Vienna's third district, the one where I live. So if you intend to visit Vienna somewhen - which is rewarding anyway - I'll be glad to show it (and some other interesting places) to you. And now to something completely different: one can find quite a few connections between Python and Wittgenstein, for example (don't be surprised): http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-July/000592.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2003-February/188065.html and very up-to-date http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596516499/ and a lot more, not to forget: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_WRFJwGsbY Regards, Gregor > Kirby > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 18:01:14 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:01:14 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] some notes...((partly) OT) In-Reply-To: <4A940391.8080001@aon.at> References: <4A940391.8080001@aon.at> Message-ID: Wonderful Gregor, will do a pointer to here from the Wittrs list I frequent (Sean moderating). Of course I'm fascinated by LW's architectural projects, regard his philosophy as one (or maybe two) of them. :) I'd love to visit with you at some Pycon / Vienna in 20??. We should make one happen, invite 10 other people, call it a circle. :) Kirby On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Gregor Lingl wrote: > > > kirby urner schrieb: > >> Been sharing some Python lore with Wittgenstein fans (obscure, >> esoteric philosopher of 1900s vintage). >> >> >> > Hi Kirby, again, > > as someone interested in architecture (hopefully not only of Buckminster > Fuller) following the link of my previous post you might have noticed, that > Ludwig Wittgenstein from 1926 to 1928 was heavily involved in building the > so called Wittgenstein house or Stonborough House (together with Paul > Engelmann, a friendly architect), one of the most modernist buildings in > Vienna then.See e. g.: http://www.spiluttini.com/nextroom.php?id=1681 Incidentally it is located in Vienna's third district, the one where I > live. So if you intend to visit Vienna somewhen - which is rewarding anyway > - I'll be glad to show it (and some other interesting places) to you. > > And now to something completely different: one can find quite a few > connections between Python and Wittgenstein, for example (don't be > surprised): > > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-July/000592.html > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2003-February/188065.html > > and very up-to-date > > http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596516499/ > > and a lot more, not to forget: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_WRFJwGsbY > > Regards, > Gregor > >> Kirby >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roberto03 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 12:18:55 2009 From: roberto03 at gmail.com (roberto) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:18:55 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] turtle in education In-Reply-To: <4A72CBF8.90108@aon.at> References: <4bcde3e10907220828hb31e3c9n12440f92b3456c8f@mail.gmail.com> <4A72CBF8.90108@aon.at> Message-ID: <4bcde3e10908260318o10f81381y56d516f3c6cd40f3@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Gregor Lingl wrote: > Hi Roberto, hi all, > > I've just created a repository of turtle graphics demos/applications > at google code: > > http://code.google.com/p/python-turtle-demo/ thank you Gregor ! I am back to office now and read your news i'll take carefully into account your material; also i'll try to differentiate the ways for my students using Sugar TurtleArt as a start-up (and ongoing) tool and your Turtle module as an ongoing one for more experienced guys; it will take me some time but i'll contribute everything may help others in the field -- roberto From wescpy at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 22:48:34 2009 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:48:34 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools Message-ID: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> AP CS Courses (and Students) on the Decline, CSTA Survey Finds This spring, the 2009 CSTA National Secondary Computer Science Survey collected responses from some 1,100 high school Computer Science teachers. The results: only 65 percent reported that their schools offer introductory or pre-AP Computer Science classes, as compared with 73 percent in 2007 and 78 percent in 2005. Only 27 percent reported that their schools offer AP CS, as compared with 32 percent in 2007 and 40 percent in 2005. And 74 percent offer CS content in courses other than introductory or AP CS, down from 85 percent in 2007. "The continuing drop in students taking AP CS is a serious warning sign about the state of computing in this country, as a student taking AP typically indicates his or her interest in majoring in that field in college or pursuing a career in that area," said Chris Stephenson, executive director of the Computer Science Teachers Association. article (also see PDFcomparing 2005 vs. 2007 vs. 2009 results): http://www.csta.acm.org/Research/sub/CSTAResearch.html -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 "Python Fundamentals", Prentice Hall, (c)2009 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From jeff at taupro.com Fri Aug 28 00:56:50 2009 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:56:50 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> wesley chun wrote: > AP CS Courses (and Students) on the Decline, CSTA Survey Finds > > This spring, the 2009 CSTA National Secondary Computer Science Survey > collected responses from some 1,100 high school Computer Science > teachers. The results: only 65 percent reported that their schools > offer introductory or pre-AP Computer Science classes, as compared > with 73 percent in 2007 and 78 percent in 2005. Only 27 percent > reported that their schools offer AP CS, as compared with 32 percent > in 2007 and 40 percent in 2005. And 74 percent offer CS content in > courses other than introductory or AP CS, down from 85 percent in > 2007. > > "The continuing drop in students taking AP CS is a serious > warning sign about the state of computing in this country, as a > student taking AP typically indicates his or her interest in majoring > in that field in college or pursuing a career in that area," said > Chris Stephenson, executive director of the Computer Science Teachers > Association. I'm not involved in the education industry so I'm having a slight logic disconnect with this article. The title implies that students are not -choosing- to major in CS but the body talks about fewer schools -offering- the classes. I'm not clear to what degree students influence the offering of classes versus school leadership deciding that. Is this more a perception of viability issue among management or students? Or perhaps a problem with schools not being able to supply teachers that can teach it, and thereby dropping classes? Maybe CS needs a good PR campaign, showing how fun it is, how it directly impacts the qualify of life for society and how empowering it is to understand and be able to take control of the technology around us. It also is one of the cheapest fields in which to get started as everything you need is free - software tools, online books, video classes. You don't need organizational permission to participate like you do with many majors like nuclear physics (my original major) or medicine and it doesn't even require expensive/messy raw materials like electronics, chemistry or biology. Instead you work with the stuff of dreams, in an air-conditioned clean environment! I didn't know about the Computer Science Teachers Association and I see they have a very nice website. Thanks for the tip -- I'll be checking it out as I feel for the democratization of society we definitely need more people working on computers. Computers (being amplifiers of thought mostly for those who program them) are the only tool developed by Mankind that has such immense power to enslave society if left in the hands of a few. Just look at the information sieving and social monitoring facilities springing up around us. -Jeff From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 01:44:41 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:44:41 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Jeff Rush wrote: > wesley chun wrote: >> AP CS Courses (and Students) on the Decline, CSTA Survey Finds >> >> This spring, the 2009 CSTA National Secondary Computer Science Survey >> collected responses from some 1,100 high school Computer Science >> teachers. The results: only 65 percent reported that their schools >> offer introductory or pre-AP Computer Science classes, as compared >> with 73 percent in 2007 and 78 percent in 2005. Only 27 percent >> reported that their schools offer AP CS, as compared with 32 percent >> in 2007 and 40 percent in 2005. And 74 percent offer CS content in >> courses other than introductory or AP CS, down from 85 percent in >> 2007. >> >> "The continuing drop in students taking AP CS is a serious >> warning sign about the state of computing in this country, as a >> student taking AP typically indicates his or her interest in majoring >> in that field in college or pursuing a career in that area," said >> Chris Stephenson, executive director of the Computer Science Teachers >> Association. > > I'm not involved in the education industry so I'm having a slight logic > disconnect with this article. > Per my recent meeting with some pro teachers at Sherwood High School on August 7, myself and Lindsey representing ISEPP (isepp.org), the politics are thus: in Oregon State, three years of high school mathematics are mandated by law, and this has traditionally meant something called "algebra" upon entering high school, and something called "geometry" the year following, leaving the third year somewhat up for grabs. Enter computer science teachers, already at a huge disadvantage because their subject is "elective" whereas the math teachers have this legal mandate to enforce three years of their discipline, or the degree might be denied. Solution: make a digital math offering that fulfills the State's 3rd year requirement, competing with Stats and/or Trig or whatever students take after Algebra, Geometry. > The title implies that students are not -choosing- to major in CS but > the body talks about fewer schools -offering- the classes. ?I'm not > clear to what degree students influence the offering of classes versus > school leadership deciding that. ?Is this more a perception of viability > issue among management or students? ?Or perhaps a problem with schools > not being able to supply teachers that can teach it, and thereby > dropping classes? > My view is a kind of hyper-specialization run amok somewhat paralyzed the system from making real change, to where a sort of para- and/or quasi- legal infrastructure, including home schooling and militant parent led alternative schools within the public system (charters or, in Portland, schools within schools), was needed to goad the balance into adopting similar changes. It's basically the usual bell curve of early adopters, then the bulge, then the laggards. The traditional "bandwagon" effect. The upshot is we're looking at a gradual displacement of the calculator generation textbooks with the newer Litvins style textbooks, whether PDF or dead tree or Amazon reader, is for another thread (already completed?). > Maybe CS needs a good PR campaign, showing how fun it is, how it > directly impacts the qualify of life for society and how empowering it > is to understand and be able to take control of the technology around > us. ?It also is one of the cheapest fields in which to get started as > everything you need is free - software tools, online books, video > classes. ?You don't need organizational permission to participate like > you do with many majors like nuclear physics (my original major) or > medicine and it doesn't even require expensive/messy raw materials like > electronics, chemistry or biology. ?Instead you work with the stuff of > dreams, in an air-conditioned clean environment! > This is all good, and whatever the CS folks come up with, we can rip off and use to recruit for our digital math pilots, be these single courses or gateways. The reason I say gateways is kids increasingly enter high school already knowing quite a bit of the algebra/geometry stuff, e.g. our geek Hogwarts Winterhaven placed freshman directly into math-intensive chemistry, with moles 'n shit, and the kids did OK, just out of middle school. So that leaves room for green field development i.e. we don't hafta wait 'til some "third year" to start with the digital mathematics (aka discrete, concrete, post-analogy, computer-based, or whatever community standard). > I didn't know about the Computer Science Teachers Association and I see > they have a very nice website. ?Thanks for the tip -- I'll be checking > it out as I feel for the democratization of society we definitely need > more people working on computers. ?Computers (being amplifiers of > thought mostly for those who program them) are the only tool developed > by Mankind that has such immense power to enslave society if left in the > hands of a few. ?Just look at the information sieving and social > monitoring facilities springing up around us. Well said. We either control them, or we let our misleading fantasies about them, born of ignorance, control us. Here's some more of that CS / math hybrid I'm talking about: http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1979894&tstart=0 Kirby > > -Jeff > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 01:53:30 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:53:30 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 4:44 PM, kirby urner wrote: << SNIP >> > The reason I say gateways is kids increasingly enter high school > already knowing quite a bit of the algebra/geometry stuff, e.g. our > geek Hogwarts Winterhaven placed freshman directly into math-intensive > chemistry, with moles 'n shit, and the kids did OK, just out of middle > school. ?So that leaves room for green field development i.e. we don't > hafta wait 'til some "third year" to start with the digital > mathematics (aka discrete, concrete, post-analogy, computer-based, or > whatever community standard). > Oopsie, I said "post-analogy" which makes little sense. This notion of a "digital math" comes from an older software lobby here in Oregon. Full disclosure: was chief outsourced database programmer for Associated Oregon Industries for some years (AOI.og). So if there's a "digital math" there must be an "analog math" that we're gradually overcoming, like broadcast TV is being overcome by HDTV. That "analog math" is what today we might call the precalculus/ calculus track -- very appropriately given how the latter is invested in "perfect smoothness" whereas the hallmark of the digital approach is to quantize everything, make stuff discrete. It's basically Euclid versus Democritus, if you want some philosophy department shorthand. So yeah, DM and AM for short, and DM is gradually displacing AM, not by neglecting calculus, but by making continuing series and sequences come out of Python generators ala Litvins, other P4E literature (inherits from CP4E). Kirby From lognaturel at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 03:12:55 2009 From: lognaturel at gmail.com (Helene Martin) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 18:12:55 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: I don't think members of the K-12 CS education community were entirely comfortable with the way the article you quote interpreted the research or even the research itself. For example, the survey is of self-identified CS teachers rather than of schools. Mark Guzdial had a good post on the subject with a response by Alan Kay: http://computinged.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/questioning-the-report-that-high-school-cs-is-declining/ I'll be starting a CS program in a Seattle school in a couple of weeks. I continue to be amazed at how little programming/computer science/technology is available to students in the district. After all, we have Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc at our doorstep. But administrators don't understand what programming is, knowledgeable teachers are hard to retain, curriculum is pretty spotty and students are scared of being labeled as nerds. And then as Kirby mentions, there are a million and a half bureaucratic hurdle to go through. Restrictive graduation requirements is a good example, teacher certification is another. If anyone is interested in taking a look and maybe providing feedback, two of my courses -- Exploring Computer Science and Creative Computing -- will use Python quite a bit. Right now http://garfieldcs.com/ only has marketing materials but I'll be posting assignments, etc as the school year starts. A number of us K-12 computer science instructors have been trying to put together a social network (http://csteachers.ning.com/) that hopefully will one day be taken over by CSTA. The idea is to get teachers talking about policy issues affecting them, share curriculum resources and just be aware of who is out there interested in K-12 CS/programming education. There's already a vibrant AP CS mailing-list-based community but there isn't such a thing for those of us teaching Python or other languages/tools/courses. It would be wonderful to get some Python experts involved and starting some conversation. Please join us! Best, H?l?ne. On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Jeff Rush wrote: > wesley chun wrote: >> AP CS Courses (and Students) on the Decline, CSTA Survey Finds >> >> This spring, the 2009 CSTA National Secondary Computer Science Survey >> collected responses from some 1,100 high school Computer Science >> teachers. The results: only 65 percent reported that their schools >> offer introductory or pre-AP Computer Science classes, as compared >> with 73 percent in 2007 and 78 percent in 2005. Only 27 percent >> reported that their schools offer AP CS, as compared with 32 percent >> in 2007 and 40 percent in 2005. And 74 percent offer CS content in >> courses other than introductory or AP CS, down from 85 percent in >> 2007. >> >> "The continuing drop in students taking AP CS is a serious >> warning sign about the state of computing in this country, as a >> student taking AP typically indicates his or her interest in majoring >> in that field in college or pursuing a career in that area," said >> Chris Stephenson, executive director of the Computer Science Teachers >> Association. > > I'm not involved in the education industry so I'm having a slight logic > disconnect with this article. > > The title implies that students are not -choosing- to major in CS but > the body talks about fewer schools -offering- the classes. ?I'm not > clear to what degree students influence the offering of classes versus > school leadership deciding that. ?Is this more a perception of viability > issue among management or students? ?Or perhaps a problem with schools > not being able to supply teachers that can teach it, and thereby > dropping classes? > > Maybe CS needs a good PR campaign, showing how fun it is, how it > directly impacts the qualify of life for society and how empowering it > is to understand and be able to take control of the technology around > us. ?It also is one of the cheapest fields in which to get started as > everything you need is free - software tools, online books, video > classes. ?You don't need organizational permission to participate like > you do with many majors like nuclear physics (my original major) or > medicine and it doesn't even require expensive/messy raw materials like > electronics, chemistry or biology. ?Instead you work with the stuff of > dreams, in an air-conditioned clean environment! > > I didn't know about the Computer Science Teachers Association and I see > they have a very nice website. ?Thanks for the tip -- I'll be checking > it out as I feel for the democratization of society we definitely need > more people working on computers. ?Computers (being amplifiers of > thought mostly for those who program them) are the only tool developed > by Mankind that has such immense power to enslave society if left in the > hands of a few. ?Just look at the information sieving and social > monitoring facilities springing up around us. > > -Jeff > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 03:45:55 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 18:45:55 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Helene Martin wrote: > I don't think members of the K-12 CS education community were entirely > comfortable with the way the article you quote interpreted the > research or even the research itself. ?For example, the survey is of > self-identified CS teachers rather than of schools. ?Mark Guzdial had > a good post on the subject with a response by Alan Kay: > http://computinged.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/questioning-the-report-that-high-school-cs-is-declining/ > > I'll be starting a CS program in a Seattle school in a couple of > weeks. ?I continue to be amazed at how little programming/computer > science/technology is available to students in the district. ?After > all, we have Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc at our doorstep. ?But > administrators don't understand what programming is, knowledgeable > teachers are hard to retain, curriculum is pretty spotty and students > are scared of being labeled as nerds. ? And then as Kirby mentions, > there are a million and a half bureaucratic hurdle to go through. > Restrictive graduation requirements is a good example, teacher > certification is another. Thank you H?l?ne, useful to get reality checks from a close neighbor. Our user group PPUG has kept bringing up Sage (the free Python product) and the Sage community as one to get work with. But our ranks include mostly family guys or up and coming private sector, precious few in the teaching professions. As you say, there's a big cultural disconnect between what goes on in the classroom and what goes on in a Python user group -- and that's wrong, why waste so much time on a wild goose chase (chasing the specter of maths gone by). It's the same scene of being surrounded by high tech, kids full of hope, and schools in the dark ages. Our Hillsboro Police Department (next to Intel) was really tired of getting asked to bust kids chops for software piracy, ripping off music (this was Napster's golden year) and when they found about about FOSS they went apeshit, going "why do we have to play the mean guy enforcer when we could be having fun watching these kids develop cyberspace skills and not end up career criminals?" So HPD opened a Linux Lab right there in West Precinct (hand-me-down Compaqs running Red Hat). Me 'n Jerritt (with linuxfund.org back then) were two of the teachers, contracted through saturdayacademy.org. But guess what: teenagers don't really think of a police station as being congenial to their way of life, so the marketing was a real up hill battle. Also the premise was born or desperation: schools so not doing their jobs that the police needed to step in as digital math teachers, when they're supposed to be running forensics labs. Like how twisted is that? George Heuston, the brains behind this project, along with his chief, was unusually ahead of the pack in his thinking (quite a resume, FBI, NORAD... I don't know the half of it I'm sure). > > If anyone is interested in taking a look and maybe providing feedback, > two of my courses -- Exploring Computer Science and Creative Computing > -- will use Python quite a bit. ?Right now http://garfieldcs.com/ only > has marketing materials but I'll be posting assignments, etc as the > school year starts. > Garfield High in Seattle? Where my mom went as a kid? And Jimi Hendrix? > A number of us K-12 computer science instructors have been trying to > put together a social network (http://csteachers.ning.com/) that > hopefully will one day be taken over by CSTA. ?The idea is to get > teachers talking about policy issues affecting them, share curriculum > resources and just be aware of who is out there interested in K-12 > CS/programming education. ?There's already a vibrant AP CS > mailing-list-based community but there isn't such a thing for those of > us teaching Python or other languages/tools/courses. ?It would be > wonderful to get some Python experts involved and starting some > conversation. ?Please join us! > > Best, > > H?l?ne. > Sounds excellent. Your meeting at Sherwood High ended on a note of collaboration between high school math teachers and high school computer science teachers as we think both are holding some of the puzzle pieces. My approach has been to jump ahead to where we already have flatscreen monitors in front of most high school math students, and now want to get into ray tracing, simulations, geometry, and yes, turtle graphics (also VRML aka x3D etc.). This isn't just a superficial tour of various gee whiz applications though, it's serious-enough programming in a computer language, expressing "math objects" (such as Vectors, Polynomials) in Python, much as the Litvins text does. http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/edu-sig/ links to Sage, which you likely already know about, whereas here's the Litvins text home page (not yet linked): http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Digital-Age-Programming-Python/dp/0972705589 There's a PDF version, not sure what else, and a print on demand philosophy that's better than most mass publishing policies in my estimation, although I'm not connected to the publisher in any business capacity, have had no contact with the authors to date. Chris Brooks introduced me to this text. He's with Software Association of Oregon etc., seems well connected in Ruby world (given the latter's tight integration with OpenGL, Arthur Siegel used to wonder if our window had gone by (Vpython was moribund at the time, looking much stronger today -- Dr. Bob Fuller my contact with that group)). Kirby > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Jeff Rush wrote: >> wesley chun wrote: >>> AP CS Courses (and Students) on the Decline, CSTA Survey Finds >>> >>> This spring, the 2009 CSTA National Secondary Computer Science Survey >>> collected responses from some 1,100 high school Computer Science >>> teachers. The results: only 65 percent reported that their schools >>> offer introductory or pre-AP Computer Science classes, as compared >>> with 73 percent in 2007 and 78 percent in 2005. Only 27 percent >>> reported that their schools offer AP CS, as compared with 32 percent >>> in 2007 and 40 percent in 2005. And 74 percent offer CS content in >>> courses other than introductory or AP CS, down from 85 percent in >>> 2007. >>> >>> "The continuing drop in students taking AP CS is a serious >>> warning sign about the state of computing in this country, as a >>> student taking AP typically indicates his or her interest in majoring >>> in that field in college or pursuing a career in that area," said >>> Chris Stephenson, executive director of the Computer Science Teachers >>> Association. >> >> I'm not involved in the education industry so I'm having a slight logic >> disconnect with this article. >> >> The title implies that students are not -choosing- to major in CS but >> the body talks about fewer schools -offering- the classes. ?I'm not >> clear to what degree students influence the offering of classes versus >> school leadership deciding that. ?Is this more a perception of viability >> issue among management or students? ?Or perhaps a problem with schools >> not being able to supply teachers that can teach it, and thereby >> dropping classes? >> >> Maybe CS needs a good PR campaign, showing how fun it is, how it >> directly impacts the qualify of life for society and how empowering it >> is to understand and be able to take control of the technology around >> us. ?It also is one of the cheapest fields in which to get started as >> everything you need is free - software tools, online books, video >> classes. ?You don't need organizational permission to participate like >> you do with many majors like nuclear physics (my original major) or >> medicine and it doesn't even require expensive/messy raw materials like >> electronics, chemistry or biology. ?Instead you work with the stuff of >> dreams, in an air-conditioned clean environment! >> >> I didn't know about the Computer Science Teachers Association and I see >> they have a very nice website. ?Thanks for the tip -- I'll be checking >> it out as I feel for the democratization of society we definitely need >> more people working on computers. ?Computers (being amplifiers of >> thought mostly for those who program them) are the only tool developed >> by Mankind that has such immense power to enslave society if left in the >> hands of a few. ?Just look at the information sieving and social >> monitoring facilities springing up around us. >> >> -Jeff >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From lognaturel at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 07:11:05 2009 From: lognaturel at gmail.com (Helene Martin) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 22:11:05 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: > Our user group PPUG has kept bringing up Sage (the free Python > product) and the Sage community as one to get work with. ?But our > ranks include mostly family guys or up and coming private sector, > precious few in the teaching professions. > > As you say, there's a big cultural disconnect between what goes on in > the classroom and what goes on in a Python user group -- and that's > wrong, why waste so much time on a wild goose chase (chasing the > specter of maths gone by). Collaboration is always expensive so sometimes it just feels easier to pursue an idea in isolation. I'm definitely guilty of that myself. I'm aware of Sage but I don't think I'll be using it, at least for this first year. It sounds like I'm taking a decidedly less mathematical approach to teaching Python than you and probably a lot of people would prefer. In my mind, the goal initially is to get students -- and not just the AP kids -- curious enough to use programming as a way to express themselves and dare to try things they don't know will work. For a lot of kids, math is not going to be the hook but interface design, data visualizations, automated music generation and other such things might be. I'd like for them to think of Python (or JavaScript or Processing or Java) as another great tool they can use to pursue whatever goals they have. There's a delicate balance to strike between academic content and a good hook, though. It remains to be seen whether I can strike it properly. > It's the same scene of being surrounded by high tech, kids full of > hope, and schools in the dark ages. > > Our Hillsboro Police Department (next to Intel) was really tired of > getting asked to bust kids chops for software piracy, ripping off > music (this was Napster's golden year) and when they found about about > FOSS they went apeshit, going "why do we have to play the mean guy > enforcer when we could be having fun watching these kids develop > cyberspace skills and not end up career criminals?" > > So HPD opened a Linux Lab right there in West Precinct (hand-me-down > Compaqs running Red Hat). > > Me 'n Jerritt (with linuxfund.org back then) were two of the teachers, > contracted through saturdayacademy.org. > > But guess what: ?teenagers don't really think of a police station as > being congenial to their way of life, so the marketing was a real up > hill battle. > > Also the premise was born or desperation: ?schools so not doing their > jobs that the police needed to step in as digital math teachers, when > they're supposed to be running forensics labs. ?Like how twisted is > that? ?George Heuston, the brains behind this project, along with his > chief, was unusually ahead of the pack in his thinking (quite a > resume, FBI, NORAD... I don't know the half of it I'm sure). This is a really interesting anecdote. It's really disappointing to think that the police force would be more aware of the need for technology education than schools! I wonder whether I could get a digital forensics expert to talk about his/her work. I bet that would be interesting to kids. > Garfield High in Seattle? ?Where my mom went as a kid? ?And Jimi Hendrix? The one and only! > >> A number of us K-12 computer science instructors have been trying to >> put together a social network (http://csteachers.ning.com/) that >> hopefully will one day be taken over by CSTA. ?The idea is to get >> teachers talking about policy issues affecting them, share curriculum >> resources and just be aware of who is out there interested in K-12 >> CS/programming education. ?There's already a vibrant AP CS >> mailing-list-based community but there isn't such a thing for those of >> us teaching Python or other languages/tools/courses. ?It would be >> wonderful to get some Python experts involved and starting some >> conversation. ?Please join us! >> >> Best, >> >> H?l?ne. >> > > Sounds excellent. > > Your meeting at Sherwood High ended on a note of collaboration between > high school math teachers and high school computer science teachers as > we think both are holding some of the puzzle pieces. > > My approach has been to jump ahead to where we already have flatscreen > monitors in front of most high school math students, and now want to > get into ray tracing, simulations, geometry, and yes, turtle graphics > (also VRML aka x3D etc.). ?This isn't just a superficial tour of > various gee whiz applications though, it's serious-enough programming > in a computer language, expressing "math objects" (such as Vectors, > Polynomials) in Python, much as the Litvins text does. > > http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/edu-sig/ links to Sage, > which you likely already know about, whereas here's the Litvins text > home page (not yet linked): > > http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Digital-Age-Programming-Python/dp/0972705589 > > There's a PDF version, not sure what else, and a print on demand > philosophy that's better than most mass publishing policies in my > estimation, although I'm not connected to the publisher in any > business capacity, have had no contact with the authors to date. > Chris Brooks introduced me to this text. ?He's with Software > Association of Oregon etc., seems well connected in Ruby world (given > the latter's tight integration with OpenGL, Arthur Siegel used to > wonder if our window had gone by (Vpython was moribund at the time, > looking much stronger today -- Dr. Bob Fuller my contact with that > group)). > > Kirby > >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Jeff Rush wrote: >>> wesley chun wrote: >>>> AP CS Courses (and Students) on the Decline, CSTA Survey Finds >>>> >>>> This spring, the 2009 CSTA National Secondary Computer Science Survey >>>> collected responses from some 1,100 high school Computer Science >>>> teachers. The results: only 65 percent reported that their schools >>>> offer introductory or pre-AP Computer Science classes, as compared >>>> with 73 percent in 2007 and 78 percent in 2005. Only 27 percent >>>> reported that their schools offer AP CS, as compared with 32 percent >>>> in 2007 and 40 percent in 2005. And 74 percent offer CS content in >>>> courses other than introductory or AP CS, down from 85 percent in >>>> 2007. >>>> >>>> "The continuing drop in students taking AP CS is a serious >>>> warning sign about the state of computing in this country, as a >>>> student taking AP typically indicates his or her interest in majoring >>>> in that field in college or pursuing a career in that area," said >>>> Chris Stephenson, executive director of the Computer Science Teachers >>>> Association. >>> >>> I'm not involved in the education industry so I'm having a slight logic >>> disconnect with this article. >>> >>> The title implies that students are not -choosing- to major in CS but >>> the body talks about fewer schools -offering- the classes. ?I'm not >>> clear to what degree students influence the offering of classes versus >>> school leadership deciding that. ?Is this more a perception of viability >>> issue among management or students? ?Or perhaps a problem with schools >>> not being able to supply teachers that can teach it, and thereby >>> dropping classes? >>> >>> Maybe CS needs a good PR campaign, showing how fun it is, how it >>> directly impacts the qualify of life for society and how empowering it >>> is to understand and be able to take control of the technology around >>> us. ?It also is one of the cheapest fields in which to get started as >>> everything you need is free - software tools, online books, video >>> classes. ?You don't need organizational permission to participate like >>> you do with many majors like nuclear physics (my original major) or >>> medicine and it doesn't even require expensive/messy raw materials like >>> electronics, chemistry or biology. ?Instead you work with the stuff of >>> dreams, in an air-conditioned clean environment! >>> >>> I didn't know about the Computer Science Teachers Association and I see >>> they have a very nice website. ?Thanks for the tip -- I'll be checking >>> it out as I feel for the democratization of society we definitely need >>> more people working on computers. ?Computers (being amplifiers of >>> thought mostly for those who program them) are the only tool developed >>> by Mankind that has such immense power to enslave society if left in the >>> hands of a few. ?Just look at the information sieving and social >>> monitoring facilities springing up around us. >>> >>> -Jeff >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Edu-sig mailing list >>> Edu-sig at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 08:10:55 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:10:55 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Helene Martin wrote: >> Our user group PPUG has kept bringing up Sage (the free Python >> product) and the Sage community as one to get work with. ?But our >> ranks include mostly family guys or up and coming private sector, >> precious few in the teaching professions. >> >> As you say, there's a big cultural disconnect between what goes on in >> the classroom and what goes on in a Python user group -- and that's >> wrong, why waste so much time on a wild goose chase (chasing the >> specter of maths gone by). > > Collaboration is always expensive so sometimes it just feels easier to > pursue an idea in isolation. ?I'm definitely guilty of that myself. > And sometimes that's a good thing, as that's what artists call artistic control e.g. none of the great poems were written by committee (I might be challenged on that, but it sounds right to say). You need that unifying vision. But then I think you need exposure to other artists to keep it fresh and relevant. So probably a mix of collaboration and solo work is the best in many cases. Observing Portland's music scene, I'm seeing much to confirm this. > I'm aware of Sage but I don't think I'll be using it, at least for > this first year. ?It sounds like I'm taking a decidedly less > mathematical approach to teaching Python than you and probably a lot > of people would prefer. ?In my mind, the goal initially is to get > students -- and not just the AP kids -- curious enough to use > programming as a way to express themselves and dare to try things they > don't know will work. ?For a lot of kids, math is not going to be the > hook but interface design, data visualizations, automated music > generation and other such things might be. ?I'd like for them to think > of Python (or JavaScript or Processing or Java) as another great tool > they can use to pursue whatever goals they have. > > There's a delicate balance to strike between academic content and a > good hook, though. ?It remains to be seen whether I can strike it > properly. > Yes, I'm all for hooks, proving up front that this stuff is going to kick ass. My classes have tended to be purely elective, outside regular school, on Saturdays, for a fee, and not for academic credit (except that around here, Saturday Academy certificates are valued, a real asset on college admissions forms, plus there's the internship program). So I've had to work extra hard to make my classes exciting. That's meant showing some cartoons and then talking about ray tracing as a way to make frames of film (render farms give us more frames at a time). They watch short movies like 'Warriors of the Web' and 'Code Guardian' as specimens, then turn to a simpler workbench where we use Python with POV-Ray. We also talk about lore quite a bit i.e. what is the history of open source, where did Linux come from, who is Richard Stallman, what is GNU? I've been known to screen excerpts from 'Revolution OS' which starts from the birth of Linux through the first dot com boom, so dated, but still interesting. This more math-centric approach I'm talking up on this list (edu-sig at python.org) is more in the storyboard phase i.e. it's an attempt to break away from the pattern of an elective subject that needs to rely on just word of mouth. We're hoping to shift more of the computer stuff into the math domain because that's where you get the required credits. If our digital math track includes enough calculus (among other things), it could probably completely replace that analog math track though all four years of high school. Once kids have a test of learning math in conjunction with ray tracing, making colorful polyhedra spin in a VRML browser, they don't easily go back to the old formats. >> It's the same scene of being surrounded by high tech, kids full of >> hope, and schools in the dark ages. >> >> Our Hillsboro Police Department (next to Intel) was really tired of >> getting asked to bust kids chops for software piracy, ripping off >> music (this was Napster's golden year) and when they found about about >> FOSS they went apeshit, going "why do we have to play the mean guy >> enforcer when we could be having fun watching these kids develop >> cyberspace skills and not end up career criminals?" >> >> So HPD opened a Linux Lab right there in West Precinct (hand-me-down >> Compaqs running Red Hat). >> >> Me 'n Jerritt (with linuxfund.org back then) were two of the teachers, >> contracted through saturdayacademy.org. >> >> But guess what: ?teenagers don't really think of a police station as >> being congenial to their way of life, so the marketing was a real up >> hill battle. >> >> Also the premise was born or desperation: ?schools so not doing their >> jobs that the police needed to step in as digital math teachers, when >> they're supposed to be running forensics labs. ?Like how twisted is >> that? ?George Heuston, the brains behind this project, along with his >> chief, was unusually ahead of the pack in his thinking (quite a >> resume, FBI, NORAD... I don't know the half of it I'm sure). > > This is a really interesting anecdote. ?It's really disappointing to > think that the police force would be more aware of the need for > technology education than schools! ?I wonder whether I could get a > digital forensics expert to talk about his/her work. ?I bet that would > be interesting to kids. > We have these Science Pubs around Portland, sponsored by the science museum and the leading brew pub chain. The crime lab police woman was tremendously popular, in part because there are so many forensics shows on TV these days. http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2009/06/big-science.html George Heuston did more digital forensics i.e. analyzed hard drives recovered from crime scenes. I think these would be dynamite speakers as well, in a science pub or even math pub context. >> Garfield High in Seattle? ?Where my mom went as a kid? ?And Jimi Hendrix? > > The one and only! > Cool! Glad to be on your Ning thing, thanks for inviting me! Kirby From chandrakirti at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 18:58:56 2009 From: chandrakirti at gmail.com (Lloyd Hugh Allen) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:58:56 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: <24d253d90908280958r42114c83u6733fbb10de75c75@mail.gmail.com> I'm a math teacher who uses python for personal purposes, but the cs teacher in my building told me that the higher level cs ab ap was axed for this year - that could contribute to lower enrollment. Apparently ap italian was also on the chopping block until the gov't of italy ponied up....if only there were a wealthy benefactor for cs... On 2009-08-28, kirby urner wrote: > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Helene Martin wrote: >>> Our user group PPUG has kept bringing up Sage (the free Python >>> product) and the Sage community as one to get work with. ?But our >>> ranks include mostly family guys or up and coming private sector, >>> precious few in the teaching professions. >>> >>> As you say, there's a big cultural disconnect between what goes on in >>> the classroom and what goes on in a Python user group -- and that's >>> wrong, why waste so much time on a wild goose chase (chasing the >>> specter of maths gone by). >> >> Collaboration is always expensive so sometimes it just feels easier to >> pursue an idea in isolation. ?I'm definitely guilty of that myself. >> > > And sometimes that's a good thing, as that's what artists call > artistic control e.g. none of the great poems were written by > committee (I might be challenged on that, but it sounds right to say). > You need that unifying vision. > > But then I think you need exposure to other artists to keep it fresh > and relevant. > > So probably a mix of collaboration and solo work is the best in many > cases. Observing Portland's music scene, I'm seeing much to confirm > this. > >> I'm aware of Sage but I don't think I'll be using it, at least for >> this first year. ?It sounds like I'm taking a decidedly less >> mathematical approach to teaching Python than you and probably a lot >> of people would prefer. ?In my mind, the goal initially is to get >> students -- and not just the AP kids -- curious enough to use >> programming as a way to express themselves and dare to try things they >> don't know will work. ?For a lot of kids, math is not going to be the >> hook but interface design, data visualizations, automated music >> generation and other such things might be. ?I'd like for them to think >> of Python (or JavaScript or Processing or Java) as another great tool >> they can use to pursue whatever goals they have. >> >> There's a delicate balance to strike between academic content and a >> good hook, though. ?It remains to be seen whether I can strike it >> properly. >> > > Yes, I'm all for hooks, proving up front that this stuff is going to kick > ass. > > My classes have tended to be purely elective, outside regular school, > on Saturdays, for a fee, and not for academic credit (except that > around here, Saturday Academy certificates are valued, a real asset on > college admissions forms, plus there's the internship program). > > So I've had to work extra hard to make my classes exciting. That's > meant showing some cartoons and then talking about ray tracing as a > way to make frames of film (render farms give us more frames at a > time). They watch short movies like 'Warriors of the Web' and 'Code > Guardian' as specimens, then turn to a simpler workbench where we use > Python with POV-Ray. > > We also talk about lore quite a bit i.e. what is the history of open > source, where did Linux come from, who is Richard Stallman, what is > GNU? I've been known to screen excerpts from 'Revolution OS' which > starts from the birth of Linux through the first dot com boom, so > dated, but still interesting. > > This more math-centric approach I'm talking up on this list > (edu-sig at python.org) is more in the storyboard phase i.e. it's an > attempt to break away from the pattern of an elective subject that > needs to rely on just word of mouth. > > We're hoping to shift more of the computer stuff into the math domain > because that's where you get the required credits. > > If our digital math track includes enough calculus (among other > things), it could probably completely replace that analog math track > though all four years of high school. > > Once kids have a test of learning math in conjunction with ray > tracing, making colorful polyhedra spin in a VRML browser, they don't > easily go back to the old formats. > >>> It's the same scene of being surrounded by high tech, kids full of >>> hope, and schools in the dark ages. >>> >>> Our Hillsboro Police Department (next to Intel) was really tired of >>> getting asked to bust kids chops for software piracy, ripping off >>> music (this was Napster's golden year) and when they found about about >>> FOSS they went apeshit, going "why do we have to play the mean guy >>> enforcer when we could be having fun watching these kids develop >>> cyberspace skills and not end up career criminals?" >>> >>> So HPD opened a Linux Lab right there in West Precinct (hand-me-down >>> Compaqs running Red Hat). >>> >>> Me 'n Jerritt (with linuxfund.org back then) were two of the teachers, >>> contracted through saturdayacademy.org. >>> >>> But guess what: ?teenagers don't really think of a police station as >>> being congenial to their way of life, so the marketing was a real up >>> hill battle. >>> >>> Also the premise was born or desperation: ?schools so not doing their >>> jobs that the police needed to step in as digital math teachers, when >>> they're supposed to be running forensics labs. ?Like how twisted is >>> that? ?George Heuston, the brains behind this project, along with his >>> chief, was unusually ahead of the pack in his thinking (quite a >>> resume, FBI, NORAD... I don't know the half of it I'm sure). >> >> This is a really interesting anecdote. ?It's really disappointing to >> think that the police force would be more aware of the need for >> technology education than schools! ?I wonder whether I could get a >> digital forensics expert to talk about his/her work. ?I bet that would >> be interesting to kids. >> > > We have these Science Pubs around Portland, sponsored by the science > museum and the leading brew pub chain. > > The crime lab police woman was tremendously popular, in part because > there are so many forensics shows on TV these days. > > http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2009/06/big-science.html > > George Heuston did more digital forensics i.e. analyzed hard drives > recovered from crime scenes. I think these would be dynamite speakers > as well, in a science pub or even math pub context. > >>> Garfield High in Seattle? ?Where my mom went as a kid? ?And Jimi Hendrix? >> >> The one and only! >> > > Cool! > > Glad to be on your Ning thing, thanks for inviting me! > > Kirby > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From echerlin at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 19:25:18 2009 From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:25:18 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] turtle in education In-Reply-To: <4bcde3e10908260318o10f81381y56d516f3c6cd40f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <4bcde3e10907220828hb31e3c9n12440f92b3456c8f@mail.gmail.com> <4A72CBF8.90108@aon.at> <4bcde3e10908260318o10f81381y56d516f3c6cd40f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We need to make sure that people in various programs can find such resources. I will Wiki your repository at Earth Treasury and Sugar Labs, and I am copying this to Stacy Reed, the Librarian Chick. Where else can we list this and other resources? Please be careful of CCs if you reply to this message. On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 3:18 AM, roberto wrote: > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Gregor Lingl wrote: >> Hi Roberto, hi all, >> >> I've just created a repository of turtle graphics demos/applications >> at google code: >> >> http://code.google.com/p/python-turtle-demo/ You may add the demos I sent you. There will be many more, and we will be building lesson plans around them using Walter Bender's Turtle Art presentation tiles, and similar capabilibities in Etoys Smalltalk. > thank you Gregor ! > I am back to office now and read your news > > i'll take carefully into account your material; > > also i'll try to differentiate the ways for my students using Sugar > TurtleArt as a start-up (and ongoing) tool and your Turtle module as > an ongoing one for more experienced guys; > > it will take me some time but i'll contribute everything may help > others in the field > > -- > roberto > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -- Edward Mokurai Cherlin Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://earthtreasury.org/ From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 23:28:44 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:28:44 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] PyNomo etc. Message-ID: Here's a link from MPG @ math-teach / Math Forum re a PyNomo http://myreckonings.com/wordpress/2009/07/31/creating-nomograms-with-the-pynomo-software/ I'm studying the docs and seeing a student would be picking up a lot of LaTex, skills related to publishing formally in mathematical journals (even on-line ones). For this reason alone it's appealing, but on top of that is the whole idea of a "nomogram", a kind of mini-API to something more algebraic in the background. So this is GUI design as well. I haven't installed the software, dunno if I'll get to, as I'm holding time open to work with what's already on my plate. However, if anyone here wants an interesting chew toy, this looks worthy of some attention, with more blogged reviews. On another topic, I'm thinking ahead to when Vern gets submissions for Pycon that aren't in English. I think we'll need to stipulate for now that some watchers need to listen in only some languages i.e. don't send him your Ruby gems either (unless he has a separate agreement with them I don't know about). If anyone comes across blogs with a Python theme, e.g. the Arabic equivalent of xkcd, I'm endeavoring to support Carl's Wiki page with blog links. Tag knows Arabic but is skeptical Python has any socially redeeming qualities other than to push crappy products through ecommerce (PHP already does that just fine). We're meeting at Powell's later for a first serious look at Python 3.x using IDLE, maybe with Akbar font. Of course a lot of her Arabic speaking friends already know Python (like at Intel and places), but the coup here is she's a Palestinian gender studies professor, makes a way better ambassador then just one more guy with a Ferrari and a black American Express card. Kirby From jeff at taupro.com Sat Aug 29 02:07:53 2009 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:07:53 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: <24d253d90908280958r42114c83u6733fbb10de75c75@mail.gmail.com> References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> <24d253d90908280958r42114c83u6733fbb10de75c75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A987159.2020905@taupro.com> Lloyd Hugh Allen wrote: > I'm a math teacher who uses python for personal purposes, but the cs > teacher in my building told me that the higher level cs ab ap was axed > for this year - that could contribute to lower enrollment. Apparently > ap italian was also on the chopping block until the gov't of italy > ponied up....if only there were a wealthy benefactor for cs... Now I'm really confused. ;-) So you're talking about the CS 'courses' no the AP tests, right? I know the AP -tests- are offered only when it makes business sense for the testing company but -courses- are under the control of the local schoolboard, I thought. So you're saying the schoolboard decides what courses to offer based on who gives them money, up to and including governments, foreign and domestic, instead of what is (a) best for society/future interests of the students based on knowledge of trends, or (b) student registration demand/historical interest in certain topics? I'd love to get into the head of some of these decision makers - what wierd view do they have of CS? They must imagine it being some luxury topic, some elective nice to have like Italian for advanced students but not something of basic literacy for all students. There is a difference between "this is what every citizen should know about computers/tech to understand the rapidly changing world around them" and "vocational training to become a professional programmer". -Jeff From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 02:26:35 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:26:35 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: <4A987159.2020905@taupro.com> References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> <24d253d90908280958r42114c83u6733fbb10de75c75@mail.gmail.com> <4A987159.2020905@taupro.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Jeff Rush wrote: > Lloyd Hugh Allen wrote: >> I'm a math teacher who uses python for personal purposes, but the cs >> teacher in my building told me that the higher level cs ab ap was axed >> for this year - that could contribute to lower enrollment. Apparently >> ap italian was also on the chopping block until the gov't of italy >> ponied up....if only there were a wealthy benefactor for cs... > > Now I'm really confused. ;-) ?So you're talking about the CS 'courses' > no the AP tests, right? ?I know the AP -tests- are offered only when it > makes business sense for the testing company but -courses- are under the > control of the local schoolboard, I thought. > > So you're saying the schoolboard decides what courses to offer based on > who gives them money, up to and including governments, foreign and > domestic, instead of what is (a) best for society/future interests of > the students based on knowledge of trends, or (b) student registration > demand/historical interest in certain topics? > > I'd love to get into the head of some of these decision makers - what > wierd view do they have of CS? ?They must imagine it being some luxury > topic, some elective nice to have like Italian for advanced students but > not something of basic literacy for all students. I think you're about right here Jeff. It takes little think tanks with no investment in the status quo to bring attention to these abuses. In our district, if a school censors YouTube, even for teachers, we encourage writing the ACLU, even Amnesty International. Censoring is like book burning, and if you're tax funded and doing it, you maybe need a knock on the door from the taxpayers' representative (could be a Congressman), some scandalous press. The way kids are hobbled with obsolete textbooks teaching nothing relevant is of course a travesty. > > There is a difference between "this is what every citizen should know > about computers/tech to understand the rapidly changing world around > them" and "vocational training to become a professional programmer". > > -Jeff Yes, big difference. Lots of canary in mineshaft tests vis-a-vis "what every citizen should know..." No mention of SQL in all four years of high school? Dead canary. No mention of RSA in all four years of high school? Dead canary. No use of FOSS on commodity hardware to impart math principles? Dead canary. I think we should give out Dead Canary awards to deserving school boards ("we" being my think tank -- I know Python.org is business class conservative and can't afford to do anything that controversial or fun). Kirby From lognaturel at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 03:21:50 2009 From: lognaturel at gmail.com (Helene Martin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:21:50 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: <4A987159.2020905@taupro.com> References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> <24d253d90908280958r42114c83u6733fbb10de75c75@mail.gmail.com> <4A987159.2020905@taupro.com> Message-ID: I just want to offer a little more background on the AP situation. There used to be two AP CS courses: AP CS A was and remains roughly equivalent to a semester-long college intro to programming in Java and AP CS AB was roughly equivalent to a data structures course. The AB course was not offered by many schools and because it was one of the least popular AP tests, the College Board axed it. There was also an equity question -- this was the test with the biggest gender and ethnic bias. I don't think it would be fair to say the course was killed against historical interest because that truly was declining. Also, it was definitely not what most people would need to understand technology. Jeff, you're right that a teacher could technically offer the equivalent to AP CS AB. That being said, without an AP test at the end of the line, school districts have very little way of knowing whether a course is good and I sympathize with this in some sense. It doesn't make a ton of sense to keep offering a course that can't be gauged for quality (because no one knows computer science at the district level) and that only white gamer-types take (generalizing, but sadly largely true). Here are the statistics: http://www.collegeboard.com/html/aprtn/ap_computer_science.html To fill the void left by the AP CS AB course, some colleges have been offering college credit to students of teachers who align their curriculum in some way. Here are some details on UW's program: http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/reges/uwhs/ Teachers across the nation are transforming their AB courses into UW in the high school courses. Axing the AB test might actually be a really good thing. The College Board is working on creating a new AP test aimed at capturing some of the things you're talking about that would be good for society and student future and making it approachable to more students. Jeanette Wing's ideas on computational thinking are a big part of that. Last I heard, the plan was to give teachers choice over language of instruction. Python would be one of those choices so hopefully once that curriculum gets going there'll be a sharp increase of Python in high school. H?l?ne. On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Jeff Rush wrote: > Lloyd Hugh Allen wrote: >> I'm a math teacher who uses python for personal purposes, but the cs >> teacher in my building told me that the higher level cs ab ap was axed >> for this year - that could contribute to lower enrollment. Apparently >> ap italian was also on the chopping block until the gov't of italy >> ponied up....if only there were a wealthy benefactor for cs... > > Now I'm really confused. ;-) ?So you're talking about the CS 'courses' > no the AP tests, right? ?I know the AP -tests- are offered only when it > makes business sense for the testing company but -courses- are under the > control of the local schoolboard, I thought. > > So you're saying the schoolboard decides what courses to offer based on > who gives them money, up to and including governments, foreign and > domestic, instead of what is (a) best for society/future interests of > the students based on knowledge of trends, or (b) student registration > demand/historical interest in certain topics? > > I'd love to get into the head of some of these decision makers - what > wierd view do they have of CS? ?They must imagine it being some luxury > topic, some elective nice to have like Italian for advanced students but > not something of basic literacy for all students. > > There is a difference between "this is what every citizen should know > about computers/tech to understand the rapidly changing world around > them" and "vocational training to become a professional programmer". > > -Jeff > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From lac at openend.se Sat Aug 29 05:05:37 2009 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 05:05:37 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: Message from Jeff Rush of "Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:07:53 CDT." <4A987159.2020905@taupro.com> References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> <24d253d90908280958r42114c83u6733fbb10de75c75@mail.gmail.com> <4A987159.2020905@taupro.com> Message-ID: <200908290305.n7T35btK031582@theraft.openend.se> In a message of Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:07:53 CDT, Jeff Rush writes: >I'd love to get into the head of some of these decision makers - what >wierd view do they have of CS? They must imagine it being some luxury >topic, some elective nice to have like Italian for advanced students but >not something of basic literacy for all students. > >There is a difference between "this is what every citizen should know >about computers/tech to understand the rapidly changing world around >them" and "vocational training to become a professional programmer". > >-Jeff When I lived in California, 15 years ago, I met some of these people. I was fighting the removal of art classes from a high school. I showed up with a team of 5 commercial artists, all of whom were willing to teach art, for free, after school. And they wanted to teach things like photoshop, too. I was prepared for the school admins not understanding why photoshop would be a useful thing to learn. What I wasn't prepared for was their complete and total misunderstanding that it was possible to make a living by being an artist. They had art == hobby == superfluous and nothing was going to change their minds about that. They were proud of the fact that they were discouraging people from taking art, and now finally preventing them from wasting their time with this nonsense by killing the classes altogether. It was really depressing. And they really weren't going to listen no matter what we said. Laura From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 19:15:27 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 10:15:27 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] pythonic andragogy... Message-ID: Below is a transcript of my first Python training session with a friend from Jordan, Arabic speaking but completely fluent in English (knows QWERTY touch type better). She has PhD and previous programming experience in a much earlier job, so this is hardly a high school student. And yet I start my introduction in much the same way, using my "objects first" approach (not unlike AlgebraFirst in some math circles). As I was writing to a prominent Python teacher the other day: """ In an "objects first" mindset, we run like hell from the CS1/CS2 tendency to look at objects as "2nd year advance topic" i.e. we'll gradually slog through data structures, procedural programming, flow of control, conditions, types, type coercion... and then spring "objects" on ya as a Grand Unified Theory (like now we're ready for Einstein level Python). No, no and no. The OO revolution was about making programming easier *from the top* i.e. we're taking everyday commonsense about "things with attributes and behaviors" and expressing those directly. So you need to *start* by explaining what Python being an object oriented language means, by starting with very simple Foo and Bar classes, or better Biotum, Dog, Monkey, then subclass as mammal. This counts as a preview or trailer (to a film), enrolls the student in the idea that (a) hey, I'm learning what OO means at last and (b) hey, thinking this way is really natural after a bit. Because once we've done the work to show a user defined type, then we have the concept of type (type of object). That then anchors the whole discussion of native or __builtin__ types e.g. now that you've seen a Biotum, a Python (everything is a python in python), it's really natural to see List type, Vector type (non-native), Integer type as "just more creatures with __ribs__." """ We switched the keyboard back and forth. Like when she tries to feed the snake both a carrot and some beer, that crashes because the args don't match, but even though I warned her, she wanted to see the error message anyway. Our venue with Powell's Technical, Personal Telco node for Wifi: http://www.personaltelco.net/ http://www.powells.com/technicalbooks We also talked a lot about micro-lending to women i.e. would there be any overlap between Python skills and a small business managed by women? I'll have more about that aspect in my blogs. I need to connect her to Idealist.org -- maybe through PPUG, where several from that organization have leadership roles. Transcript follows: Python 3.1.1 (r311:74483, Aug 17 2009, 17:02:12) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)] on win32 Type "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information. >>> class Snake: ??? def __init__(self, name): ??? ??? self.me = name >>> kirby_snake = Snake("Kirby Urner") >>> kirby_snake.me 'Kirby Urner' >>> 2 ** 10000 19950631168807583848837421626835850838234968318861924548520089498529438830221946631919961684036194597899331129423209124271556491349413781117593785932096323957855730046793794526765246551266059895520550086918193311542508608460618104685509074866089624888090489894838009253941633257850621568309473902556912388065225096643874441046759871626985453222868538161694315775629640762836880760732228535091641476183956381458969463899410840960536267821064621427333394036525565649530603142680234969400335934316651459297773279665775606172582031407994198179607378245683762280037302885487251900834464581454650557929601414833921615734588139257095379769119277800826957735674444123062018757836325502728323789270710373802866393031428133241401624195671690574061419654342324638801248856147305207431992259611796250130992860241708340807605932320161268492288496255841312844061536738951487114256315111089745514203313820202931640957596464756010405845841566072044962867016515061920631004186422275908670900574606417856951911456055068251250406007519842261898059237118054444788072906395242548339221982707404473162376760846613033778706039803413197133493654622700563169937455508241780972810983291314403571877524768509857276937926433221599399876886660808368837838027643282775172273657572744784112294389733810861607423253291974813120197604178281965697475898164531258434135959862784130128185406283476649088690521047580882615823961985770122407044330583075869039319604603404973156583208672105913300903752823415539745394397715257455290510212310947321610753474825740775273986348298498340756937955646638621874569499279016572103701364433135817214311791398222983845847334440270964182851005072927748364550578634501100852987812389473928699540834346158807043959118985815145779177143619698728131459483783202081474982171858011389071228250905826817436220577475921417653715687725614904582904992461028630081535583308130101987675856234343538955409175623400844887526162643568648833519463720377293240094456246923254350400678027273837755376406726898636241037491410966718557050759098100246789880178271925953381282421954028302759408448955014676668389697996886241636313376393903373455801407636741877711055384225739499110186468219696581651485130494222369947714763069155468217682876200362777257723781365331611196811280792669481887201298643660768551639860534602297871557517947385246369446923087894265948217008051120322365496288169035739121368338393591756418733850510970271613915439590991598154654417336311656936031122249937969999226781732358023111862644575299135758175008199839236284615249881088960232244362173771618086357015468484058622329792853875623486556440536962622018963571028812361567512543338303270029097668650568557157505516727518899194129711337690149916181315171544007728650573189557450920330185304847113818315407324053319038462084036421763703911550639789000742853672196280903477974533320468368795868580237952218629120080742819551317948157624448298518461509704888027274721574688131594750409732115080498190455803416826949787141316063210686391511681774304792596709376 >>> >>> >>> >>> class Snake: ??? def __init__(self, name): ??? ??? self.me = name ??? ??? self.stomach = [] ??? def eat(self, food): ??? ??? self.stomach.append(food) ??? def __repr__(self): ??? ??? return "Snake(%s)" % SyntaxError: invalid syntax (, line 8) >>> class Snake: ??? def __init__(self, name): ??? ??? self.me = name ??? ??? self.stomach = [] ??? def eat(self, food): ??? ??? self.stomach.append(food) ??? def __repr__(self): ??? ??? return "Snake(%s)" % self.me >>> tag = Snake("Dr. Tag") >>> tag Snake(Dr. Tag) >>> snake2 = Snake("Kirby") >>> snake2 Snake(Kirby) >>> snake2.eat("beer") >>> snake2.stomach ['beer'] >>> snake2.eat("carrot") >>> snake2.stomach ['beer', 'carrot'] >>> tag.stomach [] >>> tag.eat("carrot","beer") Traceback (most recent call last): ? File "", line 1, in ??? tag.eat("carrot","beer") TypeError: eat() takes exactly 2 positional arguments (3 given) >>> a = [] >>> a [] >>> a.append(2) >>> a [2] >>> a.append(8) >>> a [2, 8] >>> a.append("the wonderful food of the day") >>> a [2, 8, 'the wonderful food of the day'] >>> a.pop(0) 2 >>> a [8, 'the wonderful food of the day'] >>> tag.stomach [] >>> tag.eat("carrot") >>> tag.eat("beer") >>> tag.stomach ['carrot', 'beer'] >>> tag.stomach("hummus") Traceback (most recent call last): ? File "", line 1, in ??? tag.stomach("hummus") TypeError: 'list' object is not callable >>> tag.eat("hummus") >>> tag.stomach ['carrot', 'beer', 'hummus'] >>> snake2.stomach ['beer', 'carrot'] >>> class Snake: ??? def __init__(self, name): ??? ??? self.me = name ??? ??? self.stomach = [] ??? def eat(self, food): ??? ??? self.stomach.append(food) ??? def poop(self): ??? ??? if len(self.stomach) > 0: ??? ??? ??? return self.stomach.pop(0) ??? def __repr__(self): ??? ??? return "Snake(%s)" % self.me >>> newsnake = Snake("Kirby") >>> newsnake.stomach [] >>> newsnake.poop() >>> newsnake.eat("something yummy") >>> newsnake.stomach ['something yummy'] >>> newsnake.poop() 'something yummy' >>> newsnake.stomach [] >>> """ Note that I didn't get into my uroboros thing with the self-eating Python, per Vilnius slides (EuroPython 2007). Kirby From echerlin at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 17:54:02 2009 From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 08:54:02 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: I don't know the details on this issue, but I am aware of several more general problems. One is that nobody knows what CS is or should be. I got into it before there were CS departments, from Foundations of Mathematics, specifically Incompleteness and Undecidability and Non-Standard Arithmetic. Then I gave myself doses of Computational Complexity, algorithms, data structures, proving programs correct/deriving correct programs, concurrent programming, language design and implementation (including OOP), numerical analysis, relational database theory, security, and various other topics. I put considerable effort into understanding different models of computation, as different as FORTRAN, LISP, APL, PostScript, and FORTH. Currently I am looking at Parrot, the all-singing, all-dancing virtual machine for dynamic languages. I look at CS as the study of everything related to programming that computers should do automatically so that programmers don't have to keep reinventing the wheel. Looking at the Course Description for Computer Science A available at http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/sub_compscia.html http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/repository/ap-computer-science-course-description.pdf I see that o Use of a specified subset of Java is required. o Both teachers and students must have sufficient background in math o and have some competence in written communication (for documentation). o A minimum of three hours a week of exclusive access to a capacious and fairly fast computer is required for each student, and more is recommended. o After-hours access to the computers is recommended. o The content changes from year to year, so teachers must be prepared to update their skills. Each of these requirements places a significant burden on schools that want to offer such a program. For example, it is necessary to use a textbook on the AP Java subset, not any of the free Java textbooks. This makes AP CS an easy target during a time of cutbacks. Much of the content of the exam is properly software engineering rather than CS. Legal and ethical issues are also included. IMNSHO, there are major conceptual errors in the course design. For example, "...there are three standard sorts that are required for the AP CS A course: the two most common quadratic sorts?Selection sort and Insertion sort?and the more efficient Merge sort. Of course, the latter implies that students know the merge algorithm for sorted lists. "Students in the AP CS A course are not required to know the asymptotic (Big-Oh) analysis of these algorithms, but they should understand that Mergesort is advanta- geous for large data sets and be familiar with the differences between Selection and Insertion sort." Where is Quicksort? I/O is excluded because it is not standardized in Java. Also, looking elsewhere, where is the Web? Where is the Chomsky hierarchy of language types (regular, context-free, context-sensitive, unrestricted) and their recognizers? (finite-state machine, stack machine, bounded Turing machine, Turing machine) Where is BNF? There are other major omissions. I find that the course described is simultaneously overambitious and severely dumbed down. The sample exam questions are frightfully low-level compared with the AP Biology I took in 1962. Most of these problems come out to one-liners in APL or J, including the OOP questions, which J handles in Namespaces. Some of the practical problems are incorrectly stated for the intended problem domain. For example, clear a check and a per-check fee from a bank account, with no provision for handling checks that are too large. (Do we just pay them? Charge an overdraft fee? Bounce them and charge a fee?) I am working on how to teach CS ideas in third grade using tools such as Etoys Smalltalk, UCBLogo, and Turtle Art, all of which are packaged in Sugar for the OLPC XO and other Linuces. Etoys and UCBLogo are available for numerous platforms, and Turtle Art is written in Python, making it easy to port. We already have more than 40 years experience teaching programming in elementary schools with Logo and Smalltalk. On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 4:44 PM, kirby urner wrote: > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Jeff Rush wrote: >> wesley chun wrote: >>> AP CS Courses (and Students) on the Decline, CSTA Survey Finds >>> >>> This spring, the 2009 CSTA National Secondary Computer Science Survey >>> collected responses from some 1,100 high school Computer Science >>> teachers. The results: only 65 percent reported that their schools >>> offer introductory or pre-AP Computer Science classes, as compared >>> with 73 percent in 2007 and 78 percent in 2005. Only 27 percent >>> reported that their schools offer AP CS, as compared with 32 percent >>> in 2007 and 40 percent in 2005. And 74 percent offer CS content in >>> courses other than introductory or AP CS, down from 85 percent in >>> 2007. >>> >>> "The continuing drop in students taking AP CS is a serious >>> warning sign about the state of computing in this country, as a >>> student taking AP typically indicates his or her interest in majoring >>> in that field in college or pursuing a career in that area," said >>> Chris Stephenson, executive director of the Computer Science Teachers >>> Association. >> >> I'm not involved in the education industry so I'm having a slight logic >> disconnect with this article. >> > > Per my recent meeting with some pro teachers at Sherwood High School > on August 7, myself and Lindsey representing ISEPP (isepp.org), the > politics are thus: ?in Oregon State, three years of high school > mathematics are mandated by law, and this has traditionally meant > something called "algebra" upon entering high school, and something > called "geometry" the year following, leaving the third year somewhat > up for grabs. > > Enter computer science teachers, already at a huge disadvantage > because their subject is "elective" whereas the math teachers have > this legal mandate to enforce three years of their discipline, or the > degree might be denied. > > Solution: ?make a digital math offering that fulfills the State's 3rd > year requirement, competing with Stats and/or Trig or whatever > students take after Algebra, Geometry. > >> The title implies that students are not -choosing- to major in CS but >> the body talks about fewer schools -offering- the classes. ?I'm not >> clear to what degree students influence the offering of classes versus >> school leadership deciding that. ?Is this more a perception of viability >> issue among management or students? ?Or perhaps a problem with schools >> not being able to supply teachers that can teach it, and thereby >> dropping classes? >> > > My view is a kind of hyper-specialization run amok somewhat paralyzed > the system from making real change, to where a sort of para- and/or > quasi- legal infrastructure, including home schooling and militant > parent led alternative schools within the public system (charters or, > in Portland, schools within schools), was needed to goad the balance > into adopting similar changes. ?It's basically the usual bell curve of > early adopters, then the bulge, then the laggards. ?The traditional > "bandwagon" effect. > > The upshot is we're looking at a gradual displacement of the > calculator generation textbooks with the newer Litvins style > textbooks, whether PDF or dead tree or Amazon reader, is for another > thread (already completed?). > >> Maybe CS needs a good PR campaign, showing how fun it is, how it >> directly impacts the qualify of life for society and how empowering it >> is to understand and be able to take control of the technology around >> us. ?It also is one of the cheapest fields in which to get started as >> everything you need is free - software tools, online books, video >> classes. ?You don't need organizational permission to participate like >> you do with many majors like nuclear physics (my original major) or >> medicine and it doesn't even require expensive/messy raw materials like >> electronics, chemistry or biology. ?Instead you work with the stuff of >> dreams, in an air-conditioned clean environment! >> > > This is all good, and whatever the CS folks come up with, we can rip > off and use to recruit for our digital math pilots, be these single > courses or gateways. > > The reason I say gateways is kids increasingly enter high school > already knowing quite a bit of the algebra/geometry stuff, e.g. our > geek Hogwarts Winterhaven placed freshman directly into math-intensive > chemistry, with moles 'n shit, and the kids did OK, just out of middle > school. ?So that leaves room for green field development i.e. we don't > hafta wait 'til some "third year" to start with the digital > mathematics (aka discrete, concrete, post-analogy, computer-based, or > whatever community standard). > >> I didn't know about the Computer Science Teachers Association and I see >> they have a very nice website. ?Thanks for the tip -- I'll be checking >> it out as I feel for the democratization of society we definitely need >> more people working on computers. ?Computers (being amplifiers of >> thought mostly for those who program them) are the only tool developed >> by Mankind that has such immense power to enslave society if left in the >> hands of a few. ?Just look at the information sieving and social >> monitoring facilities springing up around us. > > Well said. ?We either control them, or we let our misleading fantasies > about them, born of ignorance, control us. > > Here's some more of that CS / math hybrid I'm talking about: > > http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1979894&tstart=0 > > Kirby > >> >> -Jeff >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -- Edward Mokurai Cherlin Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://earthtreasury.org/ From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 18:27:49 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 09:27:49 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Edward Cherlin wrote: << SNIP >> > I am working on how to teach CS ideas in third grade using tools such > as Etoys Smalltalk, UCBLogo, and Turtle Art, all of which are packaged > in Sugar for the OLPC XO and other Linuces. Etoys and UCBLogo are > available for numerous platforms, and Turtle Art is written in Python, > making it easy to port. We already have more than 40 years experience > teaching programming in elementary schools with Logo and Smalltalk. > I'm glad you say "CS ideas" and not "CS" as I think schools are wide open to innovative curriculum writing they're able to somehow shoehorn into the pipelines they've already built. Schools have a math pipeline, have for a long time, so lets just feed our CS content through that and branch to departments later, in college, where CS is its own department. That being said, of course this or that elite academy might have CS as an elective. I'm not for wagging my finger at these folks, as if I don't appreciate a quality Quaker school when I see one (Haverford is into Python). It's just that the politics in Oregon (and so probably other places) are such that it's easier to enroll math teachers in the idea of more merit pay in exchange for skills-building around phasing OO into everyday math, than it is to railroad CS as any kind of "mandatory" subject in high school. Resistance to CS as "required" (like math is, at least three years of it) comes from "programming" being perceived as just one more profession, and therefore getting too big a footprint i.e. not even doctors or lawyers get their own track. "Math", on the other hand (or "maths" as some say) is supposed to cover all numeracy skills, even alpha-numeracy skills, relevant to propagating a culture, i.e. is sufficiently an "umbrella term" to permit such as "digital math" (aka discrete, concrete) wherein "executable math notations" (e.g. Mathematica, Python, J...) get used (i.e. we move beyond calculators and beyond flatland (purely planar geometry) in one fell swoop). So if we're stuffing the math stocking with CS goodies, how do we integrate with what's already there? I've suggested some of the most obvious bridges: (a) the idea of "a function" is common to both, even though New Math (SMSG) spun "function" in contrast to "relation". That's actually a thread about "side effects" if you think about it, i.e. the same inputs should always generate the same outputs unless you've got some randomizer as a global, hitting from the side as it were, but then why not pass that explicitly --- anyway, talk about "wild cards" fits here. (b) the idea of "math objects" with Polyhedra the unifying bridge between "OO talk" (about objects in general, turtles in particular) and "things with color, shape, other attributes" (i.e. objects like furniture, machines, bodies...). When it comes to (a), I have all the usual abstract algebra for anchoring games with sets of elements and operations (groups, rings and fields -- easy to get to when the math is concrete). The only change with OO is the operations are "inside" the numbers, not "imposed from without". When it comes to (b), I follow the approach in 'The Book of Numbers' by Conway and Guy, leverage such tools as On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences (e.g. 1, 12, 42, 92...). In giving just and (a) and a (b) here, I'm not presuming we don't have a (c), (d) and so on, plus I could say a lot more about both (a) and (b), but most of that's already published and helping other gnu math teachers hone their game. I've found very limited receptivity to these innovations outside of some Portland-based pilots we're working on, but then it's not my job to boss math teachers. They'll figure out what to do in some naturally selective adaptive process. I've found greater receptivity overseas, and, given my international school background, am looking forward to field testing these innovations in these more cosmopolitan settings. We have a teacher training program going, with Free School offerings for students willing to be involved in these pilots. I've been blogging more of the details. Linus Pauling House is a hub (isepp.org -- the organization I represented at Pycon this year, where I delivered a 3 hour workshop with Holdenweb.com). However, in saying "international school" I'm not presuming I need to hop a jet to help with these pilots. We have a lot of international families working at Intel around here. Many see the logic in what we're trying to do and want to encourage some level of success, if for no other reason than we're helping their bottom line (lots of need for computers) -- but then there *are* other reasons. Kirby From echerlin at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 19:16:23 2009 From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 10:16:23 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 9:27 AM, kirby urner wrote: > On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Edward Cherlin wrote: > > << SNIP >> > >> I am working on how to teach CS ideas in third grade using tools such >> as Etoys Smalltalk, UCBLogo, and Turtle Art, all of which are packaged >> in Sugar for the OLPC XO and other Linuces. Etoys and UCBLogo are >> available for numerous platforms, and Turtle Art is written in Python, >> making it easy to port. We already have more than 40 years experience >> teaching programming in elementary schools with Logo and Smalltalk. >> > > I'm glad you say "CS ideas" and not "CS" Yes, it's all about Powerful Ideas, not about topics, the way curricula are currently written. I have a page on Kindergarten Calculus somewhere...Aha! http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Kindergarten_Calculus > Kirby > -- Edward Mokurai Cherlin Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://earthtreasury.org/ From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 20:03:17 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:03:17 -0700 Subject: [Edu-sig] Significant drop in CS interest in high schools In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580908271348i14f85282wbf9fd06289583cb7@mail.gmail.com> <4A970F32.1080100@taupro.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Edward Cherlin wrote: > On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 9:27 AM, kirby urner wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Edward Cherlin wrote: >> >> << SNIP >> >> >>> I am working on how to teach CS ideas in third grade using tools such >>> as Etoys Smalltalk, UCBLogo, and Turtle Art, all of which are packaged >>> in Sugar for the OLPC XO and other Linuces. Etoys and UCBLogo are >>> available for numerous platforms, and Turtle Art is written in Python, >>> making it easy to port. We already have more than 40 years experience >>> teaching programming in elementary schools with Logo and Smalltalk. >>> >> >> I'm glad you say "CS ideas" and not "CS" > > Yes, it's all about Powerful Ideas, not about topics, the way > curricula are currently written. I have a page on Kindergarten > Calculus somewhere...Aha! > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Kindergarten_Calculus Sounds like we're in agreement then. OLPC remains a theme in this household as well, also liking the Starling for older kids (e.g. high school -- more my focus than the Alan Kay target demographic (we get to Python *after* all that Squeak and Scratch stuff). http://www.system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=92 (advised Trevor to get one) I see you're into Gattegno. I got a crash course in his stuff thx to Dr. Ian Benson, lots of pix in my Photostream of our visiting that Bucky museum in Chicago (where I seemed to know my way around). Marvin Minsky is being discussed indirectly (more into someone named Hawkins, invented the Treo?) on the Wittgenstein list I frequent. I'm not a big fan of AI projects, given the sorry track record, tend to steer clear of pie in the sky there, but OLPC has done real work on the ground (isn't really AI, is more just MIT thinking ahead a little). Kirby PS: I get some fan mail about my calculus too, taught it for a couple years at the AP Calc level, got my students placed into Yale and like that. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Winsemius Date: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 4:16 PM Subject: Catenary arc length: thank you To: kirby at 4dsolutions.net Dear Kirby; I want to drop you a note of thanks for putting up this page: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/catenary.html My son is an art student and is building a kiln and plans to have the cross-section as a catenary. One of the questions which his supervisor is asking him to solve it estimating the number of bricks. Your illustration of arc length calculations was very helpful. I took your formulae and implemented a numerical arc length integration of the inverted catenary function using R, a somewhat Scheme-like language for statistical computing. -- David Winsemius, MD Heritage Laboratories West Hartford, CT > > > >> Kirby >> << EDIT >> > -- > Edward Mokurai Cherlin > Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name, and > Children are > my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. > http://earthtreasury.org/ > Kirby Urner ?????? ??ss From gregor.lingl at aon.at Mon Aug 31 22:52:33 2009 From: gregor.lingl at aon.at (Gregor Lingl) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:52:33 +0200 Subject: [Edu-sig] Another idea of Conway Message-ID: <4A9C3811.4010807@aon.at> Hi all, on vacation in the Tyrolean Alps one evening I've found the time to implement another (I assume less well known) idea of John Conway. Just for fun. from fractions import Fraction fracs = [Fraction(f) for f in "17/91 78/85 19/51 23/38 29/33 77/29 95/23 77/19 1/17 11/13 13/11 15/14 15/2 55/1".split()] def fracgame(): z = Fraction(2,1) while True: for f in fracs: n = z * f if n.denominator == 1: break yield int(n) z = n def pow2(z): n = 0 while z % 2 == 0: n += 1 z //= 2 return (z == 1) * n def what(): fg = fracgame() while True: z = next(fg) n = pow2(z) if n != 0: yield n what = what() print(next(what)) print(next(what)) # the following will take 1 or 2 minutes ##w = 0 ##while w < 100: ## w = next(what) ## print(w) Comments or discussion may follow when I'm back to Vienna. All the best, Gregor From pwagner at hightechhigh.org Sat Aug 1 19:47:10 2009 From: pwagner at hightechhigh.org (Phil Wagner) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 17:47:10 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python in High School Math Message-ID: I have created a short project for my algebra/geometry class that uses Vpython (but could just as easily use Turtle). The goal was to teach slope and graphing through artistic means. I hope you enjoy it and if you have any feedback I would love to hear it. http://staff.hthcv.hightechhigh.org/~pwagner/Files/Project%20Files/Slope%20Art/SlopeArtProject.html My goal is to utilize CS more and more in the math classroom until it becomes a powerful method of expression for them both in mathematics and art. Phil High Tech High Chula Vista Math/Physics -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From luke.leighton at googlemail.com Sun Aug 2 00:06:20 2009 From: luke.leighton at googlemail.com (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 22:06:20 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] [EuroPython] Joel Spolsky wants Python speakers In-Reply-To: <200908011848.n71ImpFf029228@theraft.openend.se> References: <200908011030.n71AUvL3004523@theraft.openend.se> <200908011848.n71ImpFf029228@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: On 8/1/09, Laura Creighton wrote: > > Me again. Just found out that 2 of the cities for devdays are > cambridge and amsterdam. Some of you lot that thought you weren't > interested may think again ... london is a third one. From dford at linfield.edu Mon Aug 3 18:11:51 2009 From: dford at linfield.edu (Daniel Ford) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:11:51 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] poking some dying logs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48AAF0D003D67944931DDDC72D022F1218EA6D46@exchangedb.wfo.linfield.edu> I met Maria Litvin at SIGCSE 2008 where she gave a very introductory workshop on Python and math based on this book. She is the coach of the high school programming team at Phillips Academy. She introduced me to JavaBat.com and was trying to persuade Nick Parlante and Stuart Reges to translate JavaBat and "Building Java Programs A Back to Basics Approach" respectively into Python. She was very approachable and can be reached via http://www.andover.edu/Academics/Mathematics/Faculty/Pages/MathematicsFaculty.aspx. Daniel Ford Linfield College -----Original Message----- From: edu-sig-bounces+ford=linfield.edu at python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces+ford=linfield.edu at python.org] On Behalf Of Edward Cherlin Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:06 AM To: kirby urner Cc: edu-sig at python.org Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] poking some dying logs... On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:36 PM, kirby urner wrote: > I'd like to make another plug for including this title on the edu-sig home page: > > http://www.skylit.com/mathandpython.html > > Ian thought it was too much a hybrid of CS and math, not an elegant > amalgamation, though I don't have has remarks in front of me at the > moment. ?Steve was gonna get back to us. ?Andre thought he might work > it onto the page... I like the concept but not the execution. The student doesn't find out what properties of various data structures and mathematical objects are fundamental. There is too much of the old style of telling students what to learn, and neither explaining why nor allowing students to discover. I find it annoying that the book gives complex number examples, but shies away from actually using complex arithmetic. Far more CS could be introduced at the level of the math being used. The book uses Python, but none of the very capable math software available beyond graphing calculators. I prefer Ken Iverson's approach, in which he taught how to write programs to do algebraic manipulations and symbolic differentiation. Does anybody know these authors? Can we engage them in a process to improve what they have done? Maria Litvin Phillips Academy, Andover, Massachusetts Gary Litvin Skylight Software, Inc. > That was all months ago by now, so it make sense to raise the issue > again, as the title does break new ground in some ways, has claim to > being a math teaching book, yet uses a computer language (one most of > us know). > > 'Concrete Mathematics' and 'The Art of Computer Programming' are both > math books of course, amenable to a "through programming" approach. > Jsoftware folks implemented the former in J, whereas the latter is in > MMX already. > > Another hot button issue in Portland these days is whether families > have the right to demand a PDF version of any assigned textbook, > versus a hardcopy edition. ?We have lots of tree huggers around here, > worried about "green" and unsustainability. ?To quote one of my > colleagues (from her blog): > > "We need the text book companies to print thousands of copies of new > textbooks every year, not so the authors can make money, though they > make a little, but so the companies can make money... Do some central > planning, and if the government can't do that without going through > corporations, then it is time to [do it ourselves]". > > Anyway, just wanted to re-raise that as well. > > I mostly do my computer / technical reading on Safari, have no problem > with recycling already printed books, have no problem with small press > runs. ?But I can see where truck loads of spanking new 400 page math > books, hot off the press, none containing any computer programming to > speak of, let alone Mites, Sytes or Kites (honeycomb stuff, important > to gnu-bees), would provoke a crisis in conscience for our more > ethical. > > This is the kind of thing 15 year olds talk about. ?They're suspicious > of adults who can't follow their logic (about saving trees), > undermines adult authority to not have a response. ?So do we all favor > an "opt out" option for hard copy textbooks? ?Say aye? ?Say nay? > > Kirby > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -- Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. http://earthtreasury.org/worknet (Edward Mokurai Cherlin) _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From pwagner at hightechhigh.org Tue Aug 11 01:58:24 2009 From: pwagner at hightechhigh.org (Phil Wagner) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 23:58:24 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] Elevator Demo for Python Message-ID: Often I am asked for a quick demonstration about the power of Python, sometimes for people with no computer science background. . What can I show them that doesn't take too much time but gets the point across that Python is a good fit for math/education? Phil -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pwagner at hightechhigh.org Tue Aug 11 02:11:14 2009 From: pwagner at hightechhigh.org (Phil Wagner) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:11:14 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] Slope Art Message-ID: Here is a protect located for my algebra students involving Python Python I would appreciate your feedback. http://staff.hthcv.hightechhigh.org/~pwagner/Files/Project Files/Slope Art/SlopeArtProject.html Phil -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bunsellapb at yahoo.com Thu Aug 13 19:01:21 2009 From: bunsellapb at yahoo.com (Patricia Beckmann) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:01:21 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] seeking python class in Los Angeles Message-ID: <242061.63867.qm@web38103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello! I am seeking a Python class in Los Angeles for Fall 2009 - do you know of any? thank you From ctrachte at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 06:08:51 2009 From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 04:08:51 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] [Diversity] Unicode and Ed Initiatives Message-ID: <426ada670908192108s5111cd16kd565460038b4bc6b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/19 kirby urner : > ????? Urner 's CP4E ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????????. > """ > More and more, Python is making inroads at all levels in education. > Python offers an interactive environment in which to explore > procedural, functional and object oriented approaches to problem > solving. ???? ????? ? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????????? ?? ???? > ???????. ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???????? ????????? ??????? > ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???????. Its high level data structures and > clear syntax make it an ideal first language, while the large number > of existing libraries make it suitable to tackle almost any > programming tasks. ?????? ???????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? > ?????? ????? ?????? ? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ???????? ????? > ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??????. > > Edu-sig, through its mailing list , provides an informal venue for > comparing notes and discussing future possibilities for Python in > education. ???? - ??? ? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?????????? ? ????? ????? > ??? ???? ??????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ???????? ?? ???? > ???????. Its origins trace to Guido van Rossum's pioneering Computer > Programming for Everybody (CP4E) , a grant proposal accepted by DARPA, > and which provided a modicum of funding in 1999. ???? ?????? ??? ???? > ??? Rossum ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? (CP4E) ? ????? ????? DARPA ????? > ? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ??? 1999. > > Membership includes, but is not limited to, educators using Python in > their courses, independent developers, and authors of educational > materials. Discussion focuses on Python use at all levels, from > beginning to advanced applications. ??? ?? ??????? ? ??? ???? ?????? > ?? ????? ? ???????? ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ?? ?????? ?????????. ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ???? > ????????? ? ?? ???? ??? ????????? ????????. > > ????? Urner 'sCP4E ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????????. > """ > > My apologies to those not getting the right unicode translation. ?I'm > thinking on a diversity list, we should expect more stuff like this, > not less, over time. > > Kirby > _______________________________________________ > Diversity mailing list > Diversity at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > With the caveat that I don't understand Arabic script, it looks legit on my gmail on FreeBSD 7.2/KDE/Opera. May I make a suggestion? Can we change the topic to something like what I changed it to above and start a new thread? I got a bit confused as the previous thread has a long history. Apologies if I've misinterpreted the thread and the topic. Please feel free to change it to its true meaning. Thanks a ton. Carl T. From tkhuri at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 07:39:40 2009 From: tkhuri at gmail.com (Taghrid Khuri) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 05:39:40 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] [Diversity] Unicode and Ed Initiatives In-Reply-To: <426ada670908192108s5111cd16kd565460038b4bc6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <426ada670908192108s5111cd16kd565460038b4bc6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kirby, thanks for including me here, and Carl it does read legit.. I was wondering so thanks Kirby for telling me the translation was derived from the Google translating robot.. Wow I'm in awe.. This is so more real that I thought .. I feel the responsibility, also the possibilities.. Thanks again and best wishes, Tag 2009/8/19 Carl Trachte > 2009/8/19 kirby urner : > > ????? Urner 's CP4E ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????????. > > > """ > > More and more, Python is making inroads at all levels in education. > > Python offers an interactive environment in which to explore > > procedural, functional and object oriented approaches to problem > > solving. ???? ????? ? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????????? ?? ???? > > ???????. ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???????? ????????? ??????? > > ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???????. Its high level data structures and > > clear syntax make it an ideal first language, while the large number > > of existing libraries make it suitable to tackle almost any > > programming tasks. ?????? ???????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? > > ?????? ????? ?????? ? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ???????? ????? > > ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??????. > > > > Edu-sig, through its mailing list , provides an informal venue for > > comparing notes and discussing future possibilities for Python in > > education. ???? - ??? ? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?????????? ? ????? ????? > > ??? ???? ??????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ???????? ?? ???? > > ???????. Its origins trace to Guido van Rossum's pioneering Computer > > Programming for Everybody (CP4E) , a grant proposal accepted by DARPA, > > and which provided a modicum of funding in 1999. ???? ?????? ??? ???? > > ??? Rossum ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? (CP4E) ? ????? ????? DARPA ????? > > ? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ??? 1999. > > > > Membership includes, but is not limited to, educators using Python in > > their courses, independent developers, and authors of educational > > materials. Discussion focuses on Python use at all levels, from > > beginning to advanced applications. ??? ?? ??????? ? ??? ???? ?????? > > ?? ????? ? ???????? ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ? ????????? ????????? ? > > ????????? ?? ?????? ?????????. ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ???? > > ????????? ? ?? ???? ??? ????????? ????????. > > > > ????? Urner 'sCP4E ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????????. > > """ > > > > My apologies to those not getting the right unicode translation. I'm > > thinking on a diversity list, we should expect more stuff like this, > > not less, over time. > > > > Kirby > > _______________________________________________ > > Diversity mailing list > > Diversity at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > > > With the caveat that I don't understand Arabic script, it looks legit > on my gmail on FreeBSD 7.2/KDE/Opera. > > May I make a suggestion? Can we change the topic to something like > what I changed it to above and start a new thread? I got a bit > confused as the previous thread has a long history. > > Apologies if I've misinterpreted the thread and the topic. Please > feel free to change it to its true meaning. > > Thanks a ton. > > Carl T. > -- Taghrid Khuri, Ph.D Development, Gender & Management Consultant Adjunct Professor: International & Women Studies, Portland State University tkhuri at pdx.edu / tkhuri at gmail.com Change doesn't just happen. We collectively make it happen (AWID). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rami.chowdhury at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 09:39:40 2009 From: rami.chowdhury at gmail.com (Rami Chowdhury) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 07:39:40 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] [Diversity] Unicode and Ed Initiatives In-Reply-To: <426ada670908192108s5111cd16kd565460038b4bc6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <426ada670908192108s5111cd16kd565460038b4bc6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17A78004-CB36-4FA2-9328-1074D3C6A917@gmail.com> Just +1 to say that in OS X 10.4 Mail it looks fine -- I've read some bilingual magazines (mostly in the UAE) and it looks like that :-) Thanks for posting this to Diversity, by the way -- outreach work like this is, I think, certainly relevant. ------------- Rami Chowdhury "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice." -- Hanlon's Razor 408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD) On Aug 19, 2009, at 21:08 , Carl Trachte wrote: > 2009/8/19 kirby urner : >> ????? Urner 's CP4E ??????? ??????? ????? >> ??? ?????? ?? ?????????. > >> """ >> More and more, Python is making inroads at all levels in education. >> Python offers an interactive environment in which to explore >> procedural, functional and object oriented approaches to problem >> solving. ???? ????? ? ????? ???? ????? >> ??? ???? ????????? ?? ???? >> ???????. ????? ???? ??????? ?????? >> ???? ???????? ????????? ??????? >> ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???????. Its >> high level data structures and >> clear syntax make it an ideal first language, while the large number >> of existing libraries make it suitable to tackle almost any >> programming tasks. ?????? ???????? ??? ????? >> ??????? ?????? ???? ???? >> ?????? ????? ?????? ? ?? ??? ?? ???? >> ????? ?? ???????? ???????? ????? >> ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? >> ??????. >> >> Edu-sig, through its mailing list , provides an informal venue for >> comparing notes and discussing future possibilities for Python in >> education. ???? - ??? ? ?? ???? ????? >> ?????? ?????????? ? ????? ????? >> ??? ???? ??????? ????????? ??????? >> ???????? ????? ?? ???????? ?? ???? >> ???????. Its origins trace to Guido van Rossum's pioneering >> Computer >> Programming for Everybody (CP4E) , a grant proposal accepted by >> DARPA, >> and which provided a modicum of funding in 1999. ???? >> ?????? ??? ???? >> ??? Rossum ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? >> (CP4E) ? ????? ????? DARPA ????? >> ? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ?? >> ??? 1999. >> >> Membership includes, but is not limited to, educators using Python in >> their courses, independent developers, and authors of educational >> materials. Discussion focuses on Python use at all levels, from >> beginning to advanced applications. ??? ?? ??????? ? >> ??? ???? ?????? >> ?? ????? ? ???????? ???????? ????? >> ?? ??????? ? ????????? ????????? ? >> ????????? ?? ?????? ?????????. >> ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? >> ???? >> ????????? ? ?? ???? ??? ????????? >> ????????. >> >> ????? Urner 'sCP4E ??????? ??????? ????? >> ??? ?????? ?? ?????????. >> """ >> >> My apologies to those not getting the right unicode translation. I'm >> thinking on a diversity list, we should expect more stuff like this, >> not less, over time. >> >> Kirby >> _______________________________________________ >> Diversity mailing list >> Diversity at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity >> > > With the caveat that I don't understand Arabic script, it looks legit > on my gmail on FreeBSD 7.2/KDE/Opera. > > May I make a suggestion? Can we change the topic to something like > what I changed it to above and start a new thread? I got a bit > confused as the previous thread has a long history. > > Apologies if I've misinterpreted the thread and the topic. Please > feel free to change it to its true meaning. > > Thanks a ton. > > Carl T. > _______________________________________________ > Diversity mailing list > Diversity at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity From sparks.m at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 11:13:46 2009 From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael Sparks) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:13:46 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] [Diversity] Fwd: Okay, here's the deal. In-Reply-To: References: <98DA9473-03CD-4E4D-A18C-7AAAE88E7B65@gmail.com> <7528bcdd0908191934p41baaaa9n3823298371ef5452@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20e5c9660908200213w7f46c1f6k2f04902dd3c8321f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/20 kirby urner : .. > There's also the new title Python Programming in Context which is of > direct interest to educators. > http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/3800868585/ Wealthy educators you mean. Michael. From steve at holdenweb.com Thu Aug 20 14:48:56 2009 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:48:56 -0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] [Diversity] Unicode and Ed Initiatives In-Reply-To: <17A78004-CB36-4FA2-9328-1074D3C6A917@gmail.com> References: <426ada670908192108s5111cd16kd565460038b4bc6b@mail.gmail.com> <17A78004-CB36-4FA2-9328-1074D3C6A917@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8D4612.4020007@holdenweb.com> I confess I am posting his to verify my mail channel round-trips the text correctly. It's encouraging to observe this "just happens" in more and more cases as time goes by. regards Steve Rami Chowdhury wrote: > Just +1 to say that in OS X 10.4 Mail it looks fine -- I've read some > bilingual magazines (mostly in the UAE) and it looks like that :-) > > Thanks for posting this to Diversity, by the way -- outreach work like > this is, I think, certainly relevant. > > ------------- > Rami Chowdhury > "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice." -- Hanlon's Razor > 408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD) > > > > > On Aug 19, 2009, at 21:08 , Carl Trachte wrote: > >> 2009/8/19 kirby urner : >>> ????? Urner 's CP4E ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????????. >> >>> """ >>> More and more, Python is making inroads at all levels in education. >>> Python offers an interactive environment in which to explore >>> procedural, functional and object oriented approaches to problem >>> solving. ???? ????? ? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????????? ?? ???? >>> ???????. ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???????? ????????? ??????? >>> ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???????. Its high level data structures and >>> clear syntax make it an ideal first language, while the large number >>> of existing libraries make it suitable to tackle almost any >>> programming tasks. ?????? ???????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? >>> ?????? ????? ?????? ? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ???????? ????? >>> ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??????. >>> >>> Edu-sig, through its mailing list , provides an informal venue for >>> comparing notes and discussing future possibilities for Python in >>> education. ???? - ??? ? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?????????? ? ????? ????? >>> ??? ???? ??????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ???????? ?? ???? >>> ???????. Its origins trace to Guido van Rossum's pioneering Computer >>> Programming for Everybody (CP4E) , a grant proposal accepted by DARPA, >>> and which provided a modicum of funding in 1999. ???? ?????? ??? ???? >>> ??? Rossum ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? (CP4E) ? ????? ????? DARPA ????? >>> ? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ??? 1999. >>> >>> Membership includes, but is not limited to, educators using Python in >>> their courses, independent developers, and authors of educational >>> materials. Discussion focuses on Python use at all levels, from >>> beginning to advanced applications. ??? ?? ??????? ? ??? ???? ?????? >>> ?? ????? ? ???????? ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ? ????????? ????????? ? >>> ????????? ?? ?????? ?????????. ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ???? >>> ????????? ? ?? ???? ??? ????????? ????????. >>> >>> ????? Urner 'sCP4E ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????????. >>> """ >>> >>> My apologies to those not getting the right unicode translation. I'm >>> thinking on a diversity list, we should expect more stuff like this, >>> not less, over time. >>> >>> Kirby >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diversity mailing list >>> Diversity at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity >>> >> >> With the caveat that I don't understand Arabic script, it looks legit >> on my gmail on FreeBSD 7.2/KDE/Opera. >> >> May I make a suggestion? Can we change the topic to something like >> what I changed it to above and start a new thread? I got a bit >> confused as the previous thread has a long history. >> >> Apologies if I've misinterpreted the thread and the topic. Please >> feel free to change it to its true meaning. >> >> Thanks a ton. >> >> Carl T. >> _______________________________________________ >> Diversity mailing list >> Diversity at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > _______________________________________________ > Diversity mailing list > Diversity at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ Watch PyCon on video now! http://pycon.blip.tv/