[Edu-sig] Math + Python: reviewing some themes (long)

[David MacQuigg]

kirby urner wrote:

>> Unfortunately, our grand plans have been stalled for lack of a volunteer web
>> programmer who can finish the hardest part of the job - the last 10%.  We
>> are considering applying for a grant, so we can hire a professional.  I wish
>> I had more time.  Google App Engine, Django, Web2py... it all looks very
>> interesting.
>>     
>
> You've considered making it an open source project?  Or is it already?
>   

It is open source, and the problem we are facing is precisely because it 
is open source (i.e. unpaid).  With rare exceptions, open-source project 
involving more than one developer don't get finished.  The fun parts get 
done, but not the tedious parts.  We've tried to give our volunteer web 
programmers a "starring role" on our about page, but actually it's the 
teachers who will get most of the credit and who will make the key 
decisions on content.  It's hard to motivate a volunteer web programmer 
in this situation.  Hence, we are considering a departure from the 
open-source ideal, and just paying someone to get the job done.

>> PyWhip will have the ability for a teacher customize everything - problem
>> sets, help files, whatever is needed for a particular group of students.
>>  When a student logs in, he will see exactly what his teacher intends him to
>> see.  The help files referenced above may be too brief for high school
>> students.  My target audience is technical professionals who already know
>> how to write a program, perhaps in BASIC.  I encourage others to submit
>> alternatives better suited to whatever background your students may have.
>>     
>
> Noted.
>
> I hope we don't get too hung up on Objects First versus Objects Later,
> as I think the situation on the ground is always going to be somewhat
> diverse.
>   

 From the examples you have given, I think there is not much difference 
between us.  Its just that our terminology is confusing.  I may have 
contributed to that confusion in our earlier discussion of OOP.  I felt 
I had to jump in on this thread when it looked like you thought I was 
suggesting MRO would be a good topic in an introductory course.

When I hear Objects First, I think of an over-reaction which occurred 
because we had to break some old habits and force students to do 
something that was initially difficult.  Now that we have languages that 
allow an easy and natural approach to objects, we need no special 
emphasis on Objects First.  We don't need Objects Only languages to 
force students to use objects.

When I hear Object Oriented Programming, I think of something much more 
difficult than the examples you have shown, something that might even 
get into the intricacies of MRO, something that is normally taught to CS 
majors in a full semester in the third year of college.  If it is just 
*using* objects in a natural way, I think everyone agrees that is a fine 
way to introduce programming.  If it is a little more than that (as I 
think you intend) that is OK also, even if it not what I would do.  When 
students log on to pywhip.org/~urner, they will see exactly what you 
want them to see.

-- Dave