From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Sun Nov 18 21:53:42 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:53:42 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Welcome!
Message-ID: <20011118225342.B18290@vet.uu.nl>

Hi there,

Nobody except me is here yet, so this message is for the archives only.
Welcome to this mailing list, me! Let's hope you remain alone for long. :)

Yeah-I-talk-to-myself-frequent-ly yours,

Martijn



From spirou@colnet.carolo.net  Mon Nov 19 02:47:38 2001
From: spirou@colnet.carolo.net (Denis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 03:47:38 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] You are never alone with Python
Message-ID: <20011119034738.T24820@carolo.net>

Didn't you see that spider on the ceiling ?  ;-)

OK. Let's start with a first point : the domain name europython
was taken 6 days ago by a Thomas Reulbach. Do you know if he's
with us ?

If no, perhaps it would be interesting to know what's behind
this and choose another name right now if Herr Reulbach did it
for "bad" purposes. 

Too-tired-to-find-a-funny-endline-ly y'rs.
:-)
-- 
Denis FRERE
P3B    : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org
OS3B   : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo  http://www.os3b.org 
Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com


From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Mon Nov 19 11:20:15 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:20:15 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] You are never alone with Python
In-Reply-To: <20011119034738.T24820@carolo.net>
References: <20011119034738.T24820@carolo.net>
Message-ID: <20011119122015.A19901@vet.uu.nl>

Denis wrote:
> Didn't you see that spider on the ceiling ?  ;-)
> 
> OK. Let's start with a first point : the domain name europython
> was taken 6 days ago by a Thomas Reulbach. Do you know if he's
> with us ?

6 days ago -- implausible; I wasn't throwing around the name yet
six days ago, except possibly on the EuroZope list.

I don't know Thomas Reulbach. There's apparently a German lawyer 
called Thomas Reulbach.

> If no, perhaps it would be interesting to know what's behind
> this and choose another name right now if Herr Reulbach did it
> for "bad" purposes. 

Agreed; I'd like to know what's behind this as well. Simplest would be
just to mail him and ask what's up.

Regards,

Martijn



From mal@lemburg.com  Mon Nov 19 12:10:40 2001
From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:10:40 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] You are never alone with Python
References: <20011119034738.T24820@carolo.net> <20011119122015.A19901@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <3BF8F6C0.5F5CC802@lemburg.com>

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
> Denis wrote:
> > OK. Let's start with a first point : the domain name europython
> > was taken 6 days ago by a Thomas Reulbach. Do you know if he's
> > with us ?
> 
> 6 days ago -- implausible; I wasn't throwing around the name yet
> six days ago, except possibly on the EuroZope list.
> 
> I don't know Thomas Reulbach. There's apparently a German lawyer
> called Thomas Reulbach.
>
> > If no, perhaps it would be interesting to know what's behind
> > this and choose another name right now if Herr Reulbach did it
> > for "bad" purposes.
> 
> Agreed; I'd like to know what's behind this as well. Simplest would be
> just to mail him and ask what's up.

admin-c-title:                  Herr
admin-c-firstname:              Thomas
admin-c-lastname:               Reulbach
admin-c-street:                 Eichendorffstr. 54
admin-c-pcode:                  94315
admin-c-city:                   Straubing
admin-c-ccode:                  DE
admin-c-phone:                  +49 9421 530512
admin-c-email:                  ThReul@aol.com

Why not invite him to this mailing list ?

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
CEO eGenix.com Software GmbH
______________________________________________________________________
Consulting & Company:                           http://www.egenix.com/
Python Software:                        http://www.lemburg.com/python/


From spirou@colnet.carolo.net  Mon Nov 19 12:15:56 2001
From: spirou@colnet.carolo.net (Denis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:15:56 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] You are never alone with Python
In-Reply-To: <20011119122015.A19901@vet.uu.nl>
References: <20011119034738.T24820@carolo.net> <20011119122015.A19901@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <20011119131556.W24820@carolo.net>

Le Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:20:15PM +0100, Martijn Faassen pianota:
> 6 days ago -- implausible; I wasn't throwing around the name
> yet six days ago, except possibly on the EuroZope list.

That's not a big surprise, though. I hesitated a few times to
register this domain name myself. (I was even surprised nobody
did it before ...)

On the november 9th, you wrote to the EuroZope list : 
"Moves could even be made towards organizing some form of
EuroPython sister organization to the EuroZope assocation by
then."

A few days later, the domain name was registered by a German
lawyer...

> I'd like to know what's behind this as well. Simplest would be
> just to mail him and ask what's up.

Did you ask yourself or should I do it ?

A+
-- 
Denis FRERE
P3B    : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org
OS3B   : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo  http://www.os3b.org 
Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com


From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Mon Nov 19 19:15:56 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:15:56 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] You are never alone with Python
In-Reply-To: <20011119122015.A19901@vet.uu.nl>
References: <20011119034738.T24820@carolo.net> <20011119122015.A19901@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <20011119201556.B21453@vet.uu.nl>

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Denis wrote:
> > Didn't you see that spider on the ceiling ?  ;-)
> > 
> > OK. Let's start with a first point : the domain name europython
> > was taken 6 days ago by a Thomas Reulbach. Do you know if he's
> > with us ?
> 
> 6 days ago -- implausible; I wasn't throwing around the name yet
> six days ago, except possibly on the EuroZope list.

Okay, looked back on it and I was. :) Can't find any obvious 
subscriber however that would be this Mr Reulbach.

Regards,

Martijn



From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Mon Nov 19 19:19:44 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:19:44 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] You are never alone with Python
In-Reply-To: <3BF8F6C0.5F5CC802@lemburg.com>
References: <20011119034738.T24820@carolo.net> <20011119122015.A19901@vet.uu.nl> <3BF8F6C0.5F5CC802@lemburg.com>
Message-ID: <20011119201944.A21533@vet.uu.nl>

M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> Martijn Faassen wrote:
> admin-c-email:                  ThReul@aol.com
> 
> Why not invite him to this mailing list ?

Good idea. I'll send him a mailing asking what's up and invite him
over here.

Regards,

Martijn



From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Mon Nov 19 19:23:40 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:23:40 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython
Message-ID: <20011119202340.B21533@vet.uu.nl>

Hi there,

I represent a number of people looking into organizing a European Python
conference. Python, in case you're not aware, is a popular programming
language (see www.python.org for more information).

Now by coincidence or not we noticed that you recently registered the
europython.org domain. Is this related? Perhaps you saw mine and other
posts on the eurozope list discussing EuroPython? We were curious as
to what is going on with this.

You're welcome to join our discussion at the europython@python.org mailing
list. You can subscribe to the list here:

  http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

Regards,

Martijn



From tom.deprez@village.uunet.be  Mon Nov 19 19:27:50 2001
From: tom.deprez@village.uunet.be (Tom Deprez)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:27:50 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython
References: <20011119202340.B21533@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <003601c17134$a5801fc0$a98c84d5@skullsplitter>

Now I'm also registered at this active EuroPython group.
Watch out :-)

Tom.



From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Tue Nov 20 21:10:24 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:10:24 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython
In-Reply-To: <20011119202340.B21533@vet.uu.nl>
References: <20011119202340.B21533@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <20011120221024.A26948@vet.uu.nl>

Hey folks,

The domain question now is resolved; Thomas Reulbach sent me a kind
reply, works with Zope and Python, and says that even though he's a
lawyer doesn't plan to do anything "bad" with the domain. :)

He said he'd join this list, so you can all hear from him yourself
later on, I hope.

Happy discussions,

Martijn



From spirou@carolo.net  Tue Nov 20 21:13:30 2001
From: spirou@carolo.net (Denis)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:13:30 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Place of the EuroPython Meeting
Message-ID: <20011120221330.C22177@carolo.net>

I've seen some of our local authorities today : it could be
possible to have the meeting in the CEME (http://www.ceme.be).
Not quite promised, but I feel it well.
I'm a better salesman than a programmer :-)

Now, I need to know the exact date as soon as possible. When
will Guido and other orators be "available" ?

Here is an excerpt of a mail our benevolent dictator sent me a
year ago :
------Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 10:23:44 -0500------
me> (...) we would love to have you
me> for a speach (and other guys of your team).

Guido> 10/2001 is unlikely; 06/2002 sounds possible (I could
Guido> easily plan a trip to visit family and friends NL
Guido> around this time)
-------------------------------------------------
Is he a man of his word ? ;-)


Hey Guido, you can't be absent at that occasion ! When could
you be here ?


Cordially,
-- 
Denis FRERE
P3B    : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org
OS3B   : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo  http://www.os3b.org 
Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com


From tom.deprez@village.uunet.be  Tue Nov 20 21:18:05 2001
From: tom.deprez@village.uunet.be (Tom Deprez)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:18:05 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython
References: <20011119202340.B21533@vet.uu.nl> <20011120221024.A26948@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <005501c17208$e5af2490$a98c84d5@skullsplitter>

A lawyer, using python and using zope... where is this world going to? :-)))

Great!

Tom.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martijn Faassen" <faassen@vet.uu.nl>
Cc: <europython@python.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] EuroPython


> Hey folks,
> 
> The domain question now is resolved; Thomas Reulbach sent me a kind
> reply, works with Zope and Python, and says that even though he's a
> lawyer doesn't plan to do anything "bad" with the domain. :)
> 
> He said he'd join this list, so you can all hear from him yourself
> later on, I hope.
> 
> Happy discussions,
> 
> Martijn
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython



From Marc.Poinot@onera.fr  Wed Nov 21 09:08:39 2001
From: Marc.Poinot@onera.fr (Marc Poinot)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:08:39 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython and LSM
Message-ID: <3BFB6F17.D6908048@onera.fr>

Hi you all,

I'm not sure I could help you a lot, as I'm already working
on LSM 2002 Python topic. I suggest you use the LSM 2002 
as a meeting place for European Python groups.

Let me resume here what is LSM:
- A free, open source dedicated meeting
- A place to meet, share and even produce some software
- A place to learn for free

This is a very informal meeting, and last year we saw that
people would like a more formal framework, at least for the
Python topic. I think the Europython place could be the place
for something more formal.

Here's my plan for LSM 2002, but it may change depending on
the feedback I'll have. Especially from people who were there at
LSM 2001.

- On-demand tutorials, depending on the guru/expert/the-guy-who-knows
  we will have there. Time slots will be decided and commited (yes we can).
  The tutorial we were asked for last year were at least:
  * Introduction to Python (French, probably educational track)
  * Python level N+1 (English)
  * Using Python/XML
  * Using Python doc system
- Half an hour per Python guy that have a valuable presentation
  to show. "valuable" has to be defined.
  I can bet on about 10 presentations, that makes about two
  half days.
- Working classrooms for Python works/discussions/tutorials
  We saw spontaneous working groups last year, including one
  about Zope.

And the last...

- Preparation for European groups, for presentations at Europython

I really think LSM is a good place for such a preparation, as far
as European Python Groups knows what they want to say :)
We can reach Spanish, Italian and French community. I see we already
have the ReportLab guys in the list, and the UK comes with it :)
The German are there two and we have "un belge". Great. We now have
to gather the other Python communities. Please keep in mind that the
Python community is not limitated to the Zope community.

I sent a copy to Tim Couper who was with us at LSM 2002, and to Konrad
who's the top-scientific-python.

I know Bordeaux is not the best place for such a event, but keep
in mind we have there a lot of things for free, and most open source
community is not that rich (even my tailor is not rich).
Now if you think there is no need for such a pre-meeting, feel free
to come to see us anyway... LSM takes place 09-13 of July 2001.

Marcvs [alias Did anybody registered Europerl, 
        Euroscheme, Eurovisualbasicmilleniumedition ?]


From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Wed Nov 21 12:03:34 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:03:34 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] spacetime
Message-ID: <20011121130334.A29308@vet.uu.nl>

Hi there,

(briefly browsing through the CEME site). Looks cool! Would be great if
we could pull that off.

Anyway, Marc Poinot proposes a pre-meeting for conference staff and
such at LSM in Bordeoux before we have the conference-proper in 
Belgium. Can other people comment on this? Geographically there'd be a 
distance (how far?) and it might be easier to meet in Belgium to organize,
though on the other hand LSM may be more fun and interesting. 

If the pre-meeting happens we have our conference date set shortly 
after LSM in july, so that'd be, say, monday july 15. I'm thinking about
3 days, which would include a tutorial day (or perhaps 2.5 days with
a tutorial half day, or perhaps we can run tutorials in parallel; just
thinking 2 - 3 days).

Problem with planning this near LSM is that we may expose people to a
Python overdose, and that this will mean we get less people at each
event.. Of course LSM's planning started earlier.. What do we do? There's
only so much summer 2002 to shift around in, and nothing gets us that
far off in time from LSM. But if the events take place shortly after each
other, it's important to coordinate things very well, and to make people
know the events are related.

I think it's very important to start organizing Python/Zope events in
Europe in non-piggyback mode -- i.e. not piggyback on existing events such as
LinuxTag and LSM. I'm not against that approach; it's a good way to
reach a broader range of people as well, and cheaper, but it's also
important to show people that Python can stand on its own.

I think introductory Python tutorials would be good to have at the
Python conference; part of the exercise is to interest non-Pythoneers
in Python, and tutorials are good in that respect. 

Regards,

Martijn



From Marc.Poinot@onera.fr  Wed Nov 21 12:28:12 2001
From: Marc.Poinot@onera.fr (Marc Poinot)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:28:12 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] spacetime
References: <20011121130334.A29308@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <3BFB9DDC.DBBE366@onera.fr>

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
> Problem with planning this near LSM is that we may expose people to a
> Python overdose, and that this will mean we get less people at each
> event.. Of course LSM's planning started earlier.. What do we do? There's
> only so much summer 2002 to shift around in, and nothing gets us that
> far off in time from LSM. But if the events take place shortly after each
> other, it's important to coordinate things very well, and to make people
> know the events are related.
> 
I think Europython has not the same target as LSM. As a matter of fact LSM was
more a Debian Linux meeting, with some extras from place to place.
It's more a developper place, nost of them using software as a hobby, not
for their own job.
The Python topic in there was something like "Hey, we're there, come and
have a look a Python."

Don't be afraid by Python overdose, as long as you can balance your budget.
By the way, Python is a constrictor, it doesn't inherits from venimous.

> I think introductory Python tutorials would be good to have at the
> Python conference; part of the exercise is to interest non-Pythoneers
> in Python, and tutorials are good in that respect.
> 
Non-Pythoneers would not come to a Python event ? Would they ? Maybe they
would prefer to have a look at it before going for one, two or three
days in a Python event.
When I'm interested in a new technical point, I use to read docs (yes :),
try it by myself, etc... Then I decide to go to an event, and I'm ready
to pay for it.
Thus, I think it's better to focus on "high" level tutorial, with
solution topics for supercomputing, banks, webs, real-time control,
system administration, etc... We can have some workshops with real
case studies: yes can I do a format translator in half an hour, 
yes all the XML tools are there just pick them up, yes I can do FFT, etc...
People would leave the event with Python solutions, instead of some new
language questions.

One more point is that many European people are frustrated by the IPC
events (or even O'Reilly confs), because a week in the USA is far more
expensive than three days elsewhere in Europe (except Monaco).
The Brussel place is the right place for the European Python community.

Marcvs [alias but AFAIK there're using Visual Basic Deuterium Edition in Monaco]


From sf@fermigier.com  Wed Nov 21 12:33:38 2001
From: sf@fermigier.com (Stefane Fermigier)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:33:38 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] spacetime
In-Reply-To: <3BFB9DDC.DBBE366@onera.fr>; from Marc.Poinot@onera.fr on Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:28:12PM +0100
References: <20011121130334.A29308@vet.uu.nl> <3BFB9DDC.DBBE366@onera.fr>
Message-ID: <20011121133338.E93760@math.jussieu.fr>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:28:12PM +0100, Marc Poinot wrote:
> I think Europython has not the same target as LSM. As a matter of fact =
LSM was
> more a Debian Linux meeting, with some extras from place to place.
> It's more a developper place, nost of them using software as a hobby, n=
ot
> for their own job.
> The Python topic in there was something like "Hey, we're there, come an=
d
> have a look a Python."

Right.

> Don't be afraid by Python overdose, as long as you can balance your bud=
get.

We also need to send a clear message to the prospective attendees.

> Thus, I think it's better to focus on "high" level tutorial, with
> solution topics for supercomputing, banks, webs, real-time control,
> system administration, etc... We can have some workshops with real
> case studies: yes can I do a format translator in half an hour,=20
> yes all the XML tools are there just pick them up, yes I can do FFT, et=
c...
> People would leave the event with Python solutions, instead of some new
> language questions.

Right.

> One more point is that many European people are frustrated by the IPC
> events (or even O'Reilly confs), because a week in the USA is far more
> expensive than three days elsewhere in Europe (except Monaco).
> The Brussel place is the right place for the European Python community.

I completely agree with these two last statements.

	S.

--=20
St=E9fane Fermigier, Tel: +33 (0)6 63 04 12 77 (mobile).
http://nuxeo.com/ & http://portalux.com/ & http://aful.org/
"Amazon: we patent the dot in .com"


From mal@lemburg.com  Wed Nov 21 15:12:52 2001
From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:12:52 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] spacetime
References: <20011121130334.A29308@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <3BFBC474.FBD96CDE@lemburg.com>

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
> If the pre-meeting happens we have our conference date set shortly
> after LSM in july, so that'd be, say, monday july 15. I'm thinking about
> 3 days, which would include a tutorial day (or perhaps 2.5 days with
> a tutorial half day, or perhaps we can run tutorials in parallel; just
> thinking 2 - 3 days).
> ...
> I think it's very important to start organizing Python/Zope events in
> Europe in non-piggyback mode -- i.e. not piggyback on existing events such as
> LinuxTag and LSM. 

Whatever the dates, we should not make the mistake of having the 
conference scheduled in the same week as the LinuxTag [6.-9.6.2002] 
(or any other major OSS-conference).

BTW, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea to piggyback on e.g.
LinuxTag (saves us much of the orga problems):
http://www.linuxtag.org/2002/deutsch/showitem.php3?item=30&lang=en

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
CEO eGenix.com Software GmbH
______________________________________________________________________
Consulting & Company:                           http://www.egenix.com/
Python Software:                        http://www.lemburg.com/python/


From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Wed Nov 21 18:53:26 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 19:53:26 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] spacetime
In-Reply-To: <3BFB9DDC.DBBE366@onera.fr>
References: <20011121130334.A29308@vet.uu.nl> <3BFB9DDC.DBBE366@onera.fr>
Message-ID: <20011121195326.A30422@vet.uu.nl>

Marc Poinot wrote:
[snip]
> > I think introductory Python tutorials would be good to have at the
> > Python conference; part of the exercise is to interest non-Pythoneers
> > in Python, and tutorials are good in that respect.
> > 
> Non-Pythoneers would not come to a Python event ? Would they ? Maybe they
> would prefer to have a look at it before going for one, two or three
> days in a Python event.
> When I'm interested in a new technical point, I use to read docs (yes :),
> try it by myself, etc... Then I decide to go to an event, and I'm ready
> to pay for it.

Sure, I work the same way, but apparently some other folks don't. We're
not all hackers. Anyway, Andy Robinson was interested in this point,
so perhaps he can speak up? He mentioned he has some clients that he'd
like to send over there for tutorials and such.

After all, IPC has a tutorial day as well, and at least in 2000 I spoke
to some folks who were going there because they didn't know Python yet.
(and they looked at me weirdly, who is this guy? I assumed they'd at
least might've heard of me from the newsgroup, but they didn't read it..)

Anyway, that's not to say we should emulate this, but it's at least a 
decision we need to make. The folks who really want this should get a
program chair or whatever one calls that. :)

(and to this possible chair; I can give an intro on Python and/or Zope
if desired and I have time. :)

> Thus, I think it's better to focus on "high" level tutorial, with
> solution topics for supercomputing, banks, webs, real-time control,
> system administration, etc... We can have some workshops with real
> case studies: yes can I do a format translator in half an hour, 
> yes all the XML tools are there just pick them up, yes I can do FFT, etc...
> People would leave the event with Python solutions, instead of some new
> language questions.

Oh, I agree that this is definitely very important. We should definitely
do this.

> One more point is that many European people are frustrated by the IPC
> events (or even O'Reilly confs), because a week in the USA is far more
> expensive than three days elsewhere in Europe (except Monaco).
> The Brussel place is the right place for the European Python community.

Sure; there's plenty of potential in Europe!

Regards,

Martijn



From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Wed Nov 21 19:05:24 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 20:05:24 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] spacetime
In-Reply-To: <3BFBC474.FBD96CDE@lemburg.com>
References: <20011121130334.A29308@vet.uu.nl> <3BFBC474.FBD96CDE@lemburg.com>
Message-ID: <20011121200524.B30422@vet.uu.nl>

M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> Martijn Faassen wrote:
> > 
> > If the pre-meeting happens we have our conference date set shortly
> > after LSM in july, so that'd be, say, monday july 15. I'm thinking about
> > 3 days, which would include a tutorial day (or perhaps 2.5 days with
> > a tutorial half day, or perhaps we can run tutorials in parallel; just
> > thinking 2 - 3 days).
> > ...
> > I think it's very important to start organizing Python/Zope events in
> > Europe in non-piggyback mode -- i.e. not piggyback on existing events such as
> > LinuxTag and LSM. 
> 
> Whatever the dates, we should not make the mistake of having the 
> conference scheduled in the same week as the LinuxTag [6.-9.6.2002] 
> (or any other major OSS-conference).

Agreed.

> BTW, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea to piggyback on e.g.
> LinuxTag (saves us much of the orga problems):
> http://www.linuxtag.org/2002/deutsch/showitem.php3?item=30&lang=en

This was proposed by Stephan Richter, and it's not a bad idea.

But I think we have enough potential in Brussels/Charleroi (already 
*two* possible locations to hold it) to make this happen, and an 
independent event has its own advantages. But it is ambitious, true.

Regards,

Martijn



From martin@v.loewis.de  Wed Nov 21 21:38:46 2001
From: martin@v.loewis.de (Martin v. Loewis)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:38:46 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] spacetime
In-Reply-To: <20011121130334.A29308@vet.uu.nl> (message from Martijn Faassen
 on Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:03:34 +0100)
References: <20011121130334.A29308@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <200111212138.fALLckW02103@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de>

> Problem with planning this near LSM is that we may expose people to a
> Python overdose, and that this will mean we get less people at each
> event.. 

Indeed. If Europython happens, I'll probably not go to LSM for Python
alone (although LSM may be interesting for other reasons).

Regards,
Martin


From andy@reportlab.com  Thu Nov 22 09:46:09 2001
From: andy@reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 09:46:09 -0000
Subject: [EuroPython] ACCU Spring Conference, UK, April
Message-ID: <PGECLPOBGNBNKHNAGIJHCENICPAA.andy@reportlab.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Coincidentally I've just been asked to try and add a Python
track to the Association of C and C++ Users conference,
probably in or near Oxford next April.  This was great fun
last year - small, but a lot of very smart programmers
doing a lot of different languages, with good speakers.
We had some Python talks and about 100 people came
to hear about Python, which amazed me.  I think C and C++
programmers are all aware that other tools are useful
sometimes :-)

So, if anyone would like to give a talk, let me know.
Case studies, tutorials - anything.

Details about expenses have not been discussed yet; I
think first I have to get a credible list of subjects,
then ask.

- Andy Robinson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francis Glassborow [mailto:francis.glassborow@ntlworld.com]
> Sent: 21 November 2001 21:52
> To: Andy Robinson
> Subject: Re: ACCU Spring Conference
[snip]
> >  I did respond expressing
> >interest.  Also, there's a european python conference brewing
> >and a good mailing list on which i can assemble people
> >
> >What are the dates and location?
>
> April 3-6 and the venue (because the organiser left it late) is
> somewhere between Oxford and Stratford on Avon (the
> organiser is willing
> to provide appropriate transport.)
>
> The trouble is that the program needs to be published, and
> that means
> things have to go to typesetters etc.
>
> If you can fill a track for 1 or 2 days (3 or 6 90-minute sessions)
> there is space, but I need some certainty asap.
>
> For info I attach both the request for details from
> speakers and the
> current draft programme.
>
>

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Contact and personal data:

1) What is your preferred email address if different to the one used for
this message?

2) What is the address of your Home Page (if you have one, else write
'none')

3) Please supply a short bio (100-200 words)

Conference Data

4) Is your employer or someone else sponsoring you (e.g. paying your
travel costs) Yes/No/don't know

4a) If yes above, please supply their name and homepage so they can be
credited on our conference pages.


5) Please supply titles and synopses of proposed talks. Note that I
would hope that those coming from outside the UK can do either 90
minutes x2 or a 3 hour presentation. If you have not yet got a synopsis,
leave that blank and expect to be nagged:)

Talk 1:
Title (working) 1:

Synopsis:

Talk 2:

Title (working) 1:

Synopsis:

Thanks for taking the time.



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-- 
Francis Glassborow
I offer my sympathy and prayers to all those who are suffering
as a result of the events of September 11 2001.

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From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Tue Nov 27 20:16:18 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:16:18 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
Message-ID: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl>

Hi there,

For quite a number of reasons being more definite on the date to hold
the conference is very important. In part this depends on Guido, but
I hope he has some flexibility to adjust his plans still. It also
depends on the location, and the location also depends on the date :)

We also need such a date for press releases and general PR for it. We
need a date so potential visitors can start planning for it.

The main constraints are:

  * summer of 2002

  * no overlap with other large events in Europe (LinuxTag, LSM, etc)

I'm still concerned about the whole LSM thing. We need to discuss this for
a bit more before we can reach a conclusion on the time.

One proposal was from Marc Poinot. He suggested having the LSM Python event
in Bourdoux double up as a conference crew pre-meeting.

Questions there are still about logistics: it's probably better to be
on-site if we want a meeting to prepare things and not away in Bourdoux.
What's the logistical situation there? There's also a question about
willingness -- who will be able to show up at two events? 

Martin von Loewis indicated that he'd not go to LSM for the Python parts
of it only (though perhaps for the rest) if there's a conference to be
held as well. I suspect many people will share this sentiment; after
all people only have so much time.

I do however feel guilty if our conference inadvertantly makes Marc Poinot
and co-organizers unhappy. I much prefer working together.

More opinions on this would be very useful.

Regards,

Martijn



From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Tue Nov 27 20:17:07 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:17:07 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] anything interesting happy friday?
Message-ID: <20011127211706.C17715@vet.uu.nl>

Hi there,

There was a meeting of Zopers in Paris friday. Anyone on this list
who was present? Was EuroPython discussed? Anything interesting in that
respect?

Regards,

Martijn



From sf@fermigier.com  Tue Nov 27 20:23:09 2001
From: sf@fermigier.com (Stefane Fermigier)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:23:09 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] anything interesting happy friday?
In-Reply-To: <20011127211706.C17715@vet.uu.nl>; from faassen@vet.uu.nl on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 09:17:07PM +0100
References: <20011127211706.C17715@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <20011127212309.B13985@math.jussieu.fr>

On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 09:17:07PM +0100, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Hi there,
>=20
> There was a meeting of Zopers in Paris friday. Anyone on this list
> who was present? Was EuroPython discussed? Anything interesting in that
> respect?

Yes. No. Don't thinks so.

Paul E. said very nice things about Python to journalists, though.

	S.

--=20
St=E9fane Fermigier, Tel: +33 (0)6 63 04 12 77 (mobile).
http://nuxeo.com/ & http://portalux.com/ & http://aful.org/
"Amazon: we patent the dot in .com"


From Tom Deprez" <tom@aragne.com  Tue Nov 27 20:42:21 2001
From: Tom Deprez" <tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:42:21 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] anything interesting happy friday?
References: <20011127211706.C17715@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <00e001c17784$4e163070$118d84d5@skullsplitter>

> Hi there,
>
> There was a meeting of Zopers in Paris friday. Anyone on this list
> who was present?

Me

>Was EuroPython discussed?

Not directly, but during the dinner and after the dinner, yes.

>Anything interesting in that respect?

Ask Denis for more on this, since he's the driving force behind all this.
I think you should at least listen to him, since he's doing a lot of things
to get us a conference building at Charlerloi and all the rest


Tom.

> Regards,
>
> Martijn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython



From mal@lemburg.com  Tue Nov 27 20:47:50 2001
From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:47:50 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com>

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> For quite a number of reasons being more definite on the date to hold
> the conference is very important. In part this depends on Guido, but
> I hope he has some flexibility to adjust his plans still. It also
> depends on the location, and the location also depends on the date :)
> 
> We also need such a date for press releases and general PR for it. We
> need a date so potential visitors can start planning for it.
> 
> The main constraints are:
> 
>   * summer of 2002
> 
>   * no overlap with other large events in Europe (LinuxTag, LSM, etc)
> 
> I'm still concerned about the whole LSM thing. We need to discuss this for
> a bit more before we can reach a conclusion on the time.
> 
> One proposal was from Marc Poinot. He suggested having the LSM Python event
> in Bourdoux double up as a conference crew pre-meeting.
> 
> Questions there are still about logistics: it's probably better to be
> on-site if we want a meeting to prepare things and not away in Bourdoux.
> What's the logistical situation there? There's also a question about
> willingness -- who will be able to show up at two events?
> 
> Martin von Loewis indicated that he'd not go to LSM for the Python parts
> of it only (though perhaps for the rest) if there's a conference to be
> held as well. I suspect many people will share this sentiment; after
> all people only have so much time.
> 
> I do however feel guilty if our conference inadvertantly makes Marc Poinot
> and co-organizers unhappy. I much prefer working together.

Why not move the EuroPython conference to end of July 2002 ? That
way we avoid giving LSM any trouble.

As for location: the organizers should be on-site some days before
the event, so they should decide the location. Additional criteria
should include: good airport/train/car connection, hotel space and
Internet-access.
 
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
CEO eGenix.com Software GmbH
______________________________________________________________________
Consulting & Company:                           http://www.egenix.com/
Python Software:                        http://www.lemburg.com/python/




From Tom Deprez" <tom@aragne.com  Tue Nov 27 21:06:06 2001
From: Tom Deprez" <tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:06:06 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com>
Message-ID: <01a901c17787$5f08d830$118d84d5@skullsplitter>

> > I do however feel guilty if our conference inadvertantly makes Marc
Poinot
> > and co-organizers unhappy. I much prefer working together.
>
> Why not move the EuroPython conference to end of July 2002 ? That
> way we avoid giving LSM any trouble.
>
> As for location: the organizers should be on-site some days before
> the event, so they should decide the location. Additional criteria
> should include: good airport/train/car connection, hotel space and
> Internet-access.

Humph, Denis is working on all this, we even discussed in Paris (after the
congress), together with Joachim, about the best time schedule. I don't
understand, why you don't talk with Denis about this. He's the one with the
idea to start a EuroPython event in the first place.

Denis, can you give an update of your progress? Before we end up with a very
less productive discussion.

Thanks, Tom.




From srichter@cbu.edu  Tue Nov 27 21:41:59 2001
From: srichter@cbu.edu (Stephan Richter)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:41:59 -0600
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
In-Reply-To: <01a901c17787$5f08d830$118d84d5@skullsplitter>
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl>
 <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011127153833.033afd70@mail.cbu.edu>

At 10:06 PM 11/27/2001 +0100, Tom Deprez wrote:
> > > I do however feel guilty if our conference inadvertantly makes Marc
>Poinot
> > > and co-organizers unhappy. I much prefer working together.
> >
> > Why not move the EuroPython conference to end of July 2002 ? That
> > way we avoid giving LSM any trouble.
> >
> > As for location: the organizers should be on-site some days before
> > the event, so they should decide the location. Additional criteria
> > should include: good airport/train/car connection, hotel space and
> > Internet-access.
>
>Humph, Denis is working on all this, we even discussed in Paris (after the
>congress), together with Joachim, about the best time schedule. I don't
>understand, why you don't talk with Denis about this. He's the one with the
>idea to start a EuroPython event in the first place.
>
>Denis, can you give an update of your progress? Before we end up with a very
>less productive discussion.

Strange. He is on the EuroPython List, so why is he not communicating with 
us then? I mean this is not supposed to be a two men show, but a community 
effort. So please, let's not double the work. I think the need for a site 
becomes more and more obvious... I remember that the organization of the 
Linuxtag 2000 meeting worked really well with the little site we hacked 
together...

Regards,
Stephan

--
Stephan Richter
CBU - Physics and Chemistry Student
Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management



From andy@reportlab.com  Tue Nov 27 22:05:48 2001
From: andy@reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:05:48 -0000
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011127153833.033afd70@mail.cbu.edu>
Message-ID: <LKENLBBMDHMKBECHIAIAEEDBCCAA.andy@reportlab.com>

> >Denis, can you give an update of your progress? Before we end up 
> with a very less productive discussion.
> 
> Strange. He is on the EuroPython List, so why is he not 
> communicating with us then? 

I sense we could get into conspiracy theories just because
someone is not at his terminl able to answer email
every single day.  He could be on a business trip, 
family matters, anything... Why not simply wait a
day or two?


- Andy Robinson  (who is about to be 100% off-line
on the beach for a whole week.  Yeeaaahhh!)


From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Tue Nov 27 23:07:12 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:07:12 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
In-Reply-To: <01a901c17787$5f08d830$118d84d5@skullsplitter>
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com> <01a901c17787$5f08d830$118d84d5@skullsplitter>
Message-ID: <20011128000712.A18641@vet.uu.nl>

Tom Deprez wrote:
> > > I do however feel guilty if our conference inadvertantly makes Marc
> Poinot
> > > and co-organizers unhappy. I much prefer working together.
> >
> > Why not move the EuroPython conference to end of July 2002 ? That
> > way we avoid giving LSM any trouble.
> >
> > As for location: the organizers should be on-site some days before
> > the event, so they should decide the location. Additional criteria
> > should include: good airport/train/car connection, hotel space and
> > Internet-access.
> 
> Humph, Denis is working on all this, we even discussed in Paris (after the
> congress), together with Joachim, about the best time schedule. I don't
> understand, why you don't talk with Denis about this. He's the one with the
> idea to start a EuroPython event in the first place.

We *are* talking to Denis, aren't we? He's on the list, after all. But
yes, Denis is doing a lot of great work on the location and had independently
the idea about a European Python event before (he said he'd been 
considering having one for a year already when I contacted him, and he
already contacted Guido as well).

Evidently the time is ripe!

> Denis, can you give an update of your progress? Before we end up with a very
> less productive discussion.

Of course I was hoping both Denis and Marc Poinot would join in. I think the
suggestion to move it to the end of july is not bad, though we have to
hurry otherwise people will lock it up with their holidays. It was
never my intention to have unproductive discussions. :)

Regards,

Martijn



From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Tue Nov 27 23:08:19 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:08:19 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
In-Reply-To: <LKENLBBMDHMKBECHIAIAEEDBCCAA.andy@reportlab.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011127153833.033afd70@mail.cbu.edu> <LKENLBBMDHMKBECHIAIAEEDBCCAA.andy@reportlab.com>
Message-ID: <20011128000819.B18641@vet.uu.nl>

Andy Robinson wrote:
> > >Denis, can you give an update of your progress? Before we end up 
> > with a very less productive discussion.
> > 
> > Strange. He is on the EuroPython List, so why is he not 
> > communicating with us then? 
> 
> I sense we could get into conspiracy theories just because
> someone is not at his terminl able to answer email
> every single day.  He could be on a business trip, 
> family matters, anything... Why not simply wait a
> day or two?

Agreed. :)

> - Andy Robinson  (who is about to be 100% off-line
> on the beach for a whole week.  Yeeaaahhh!)

Wohoo! :)

Regards,

Martijn



From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Tue Nov 27 23:17:37 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:17:37 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] anything interesting happy friday?
In-Reply-To: <00e001c17784$4e163070$118d84d5@skullsplitter>
References: <20011127211706.C17715@vet.uu.nl> <00e001c17784$4e163070$118d84d5@skullsplitter>
Message-ID: <20011128001737.C18641@vet.uu.nl>

Tom Deprez wrote:
> >Was EuroPython discussed?
> 
> Not directly, but during the dinner and after the dinner, yes.

I imagined it'd be during socialization -- that was the plan, really. :)

> >Anything interesting in that respect?
> 
> Ask Denis for more on this, since he's the driving force behind all this.

Sure, so, what happened, Denis?

> I think you should at least listen to him, since he's doing a lot of things
> to get us a conference building at Charlerloi and all the rest

Hey, you make it seem in your recent mails as if we're ignoring Denis.
While I think Denis is an absolute god-sent for all of this, he's not the
*only* one working on this. Denis was one of the first people I contacted
at all when I started seriously thinking about this conference, as 
Kit Blake and I had independently thought of Brussels as a good spot.
Everything suddenly started falling into place as Denis without my 
knowledge had already been thinking about organizing such an event.

All I'm trying to do is pull the different folks together so we can
work together instead of independently. It's not my intention to steal
anyone's thunder. All I'm doing is trying to get people to volunteer,
and inform everybody of what's going and what the pressing issues are,
so we can resolve them. I guess that's called 'management'. If I'm 
failing in this respect I'm more than willing to let others jump
in and do the work, though.

Perhaps I interpreted your responses the wrong way, Tom. If so,
sorry about that.

Regards,

Martijn



From spirou@colnet.carolo.net  Wed Nov 28 00:36:03 2001
From: spirou@colnet.carolo.net (Denis)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:36:03 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011127153833.033afd70@mail.cbu.edu>
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011127153833.033afd70@mail.cbu.edu>
Message-ID: <20011128013603.B14716@carolo.net>

Le Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 03:41:59PM -0600, Stephan Richter pianota:
> At 10:06 PM 11/27/2001 +0100, Tom Deprez wrote:
> >
> >Humph, Denis is working on all this, we even discussed in Paris (after=
 the
> >congress), together with Joachim, about the best time schedule. I don'=
t
> >understand, why you don't talk with Denis about this. He's the one wit=
h the
> >idea to start a EuroPython event in the first place.
> >
> >Denis, can you give an update of your progress? Before we end up with =
a=20
> >very less productive discussion.
>=20
> Strange. He is on the EuroPython List, so why is he not communicating w=
ith=20
> us then? I mean this is not supposed to be a two men show, but a commun=
ity=20
> effort.=20

????? What have I missed ?

> So please, let's not double the work. I think the need for a site=20
> becomes more and more obvious... I remember that the organization of th=
e=20
> Linuxtag 2000 meeting worked really well with the little site we hacked=
=20
> together...

Did you call me Stephan ?

- I posted three times on this list from the beginning ; that's your
  first mail.
  http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2001-November/author.html
 =20
- This last Friday, I discussed with St=E9phane Fermigier, Joachim (our
  EuroZope President) and Tom (of course) after Paul Everitt's visit in
  Paris. We were back home on the saturday at 7:00 AM and Paul's picture
  was online at 8:00 AM.=20
  I confess, after this minitrip, I had a few hours rest.

- I set up a improvised Belgian Python-Zope meeting on 12/22 as a=20
  starting point (I need some local help too). This won't be a real
  conference, but a familly-like meeting because I can't invest much
  more time for the moment.
  (you're welcome : see http://www.os3b.org/projects/zobcon there is an
  english version)

- P3B is a local Python group. It's a brand new non-commercial belgian
  association, officially and legaly aiming at Python glory. It could
  be the legal entity organizing this meeting ; I think we'll be asked
  for such an entity.
  For the financial matters, this association has a bank account and it
  could be quite explicit with the money transactions on this account,
  since it has nothing to hide.
  Its site (http://www.p3b.org) may be shared with EuroPython while we
  have nothing better. We're working on a new version ; you may have a
  sneak preview at http://www.carolo.net:9180/, but it's in pre-alfa
  stage.

- I've seen some of our city politicals last week. They show really good
  will in helping us (of course, they hope being "enlighted" by the
  event). Now, we'll need to present a real solid project and ask for
  precise help. One of the first questions is "When ?" we need the
  building.

You wrote we need good communication, and you're perfectly right. We
should meet as often as possible : lists are a good thing, but a face to
face is still better.
St=E9phane and Martijn-Kit have promised to join our Belgian Xmas meeting.
We should insist to have a "light" meeting at the Amsterdam LinuxExpo
too. I think we all agree here : _light_ meetings with one big
EuroPython annual event, but every occasion to meet is a good thing.
I propose you (Stephan) do like me and propose some support to rent the
room in A'dam. ;-)

Now, let's decide on the right time and the program.

Always-ready-to-answer-your-requests'ly y'rs.

Denis
--=20
Denis FRERE
P3B    : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org
OS3B   : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo  http://www.os3b.org=20
Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com


From spirou@colnet.carolo.net  Wed Nov 28 00:55:26 2001
From: spirou@colnet.carolo.net (Denis)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:55:26 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
In-Reply-To: <20011128013603.B14716@carolo.net>
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011127153833.033afd70@mail.cbu.edu> <20011128013603.B14716@carolo.net>
Message-ID: <20011128015526.C14716@carolo.net>

Le Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 01:36:03AM +0100, Denis pianota:
> 
> ????? What have I missed ?

> We should insist to have a "light" meeting at the Amsterdam LinuxExpo
> too.

OK. I've just checked my EuroZope mailbox. I agree we shouldn't insist
for Amsterdam. :-)

-- 
Denis FRERE
P3B    : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org
OS3B   : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo  http://www.os3b.org 
Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com


From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Wed Nov 28 10:46:06 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:46:06 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
In-Reply-To: <20011128013603.B14716@carolo.net>
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011127153833.033afd70@mail.cbu.edu> <20011128013603.B14716@carolo.net>
Message-ID: <20011128114606.A20706@vet.uu.nl>

Denis wrote:
[snip confusion]

I think Stephan might've been slightly out of the loop and got defensive
by Tom's reactions (who might've been somewhat out of the loop as well).
So let's move past this cycle of defensiveness now and just go on to
discuss things. :)

Anyway, here's some status report we can have a useful discussion about,
great!

>  - I set up a improvised Belgian Python-Zope meeting on 12/22 as a 
>   starting point (I need some local help too). This won't be a real
>   conference, but a familly-like meeting because I can't invest much
>   more time for the moment.
>   (you're welcome : see http://www.os3b.org/projects/zobcon there is an
>   english version)

Kit Blake and I will be there. It'll become more important to Kit & I now that 
we weren't able to make it to Paris and there won't be anything happening
in Amsterdam. Should be fun and productive. We should make sure we 
already have some press releases and such out by then though.

> - P3B is a local Python group. It's a brand new non-commercial belgian
>   association, officially and legaly aiming at Python glory. It could
>   be the legal entity organizing this meeting ; I think we'll be asked
>   for such an entity.

That's excellent!

>   For the financial matters, this association has a bank account and it
>   could be quite explicit with the money transactions on this account,
>   since it has nothing to hide.

That's especially good news. I think eventually we should set up a 
European Python assocation but I don't expect that'll be a hurried
process, and I hope others will organize it.. We'll see more happening
at the conference in that respect, I hope.
 
>   Its site (http://www.p3b.org) may be shared with EuroPython while we
>   have nothing better. We're working on a new version ; you may have a
>   sneak preview at http://www.carolo.net:9180/, but it's in pre-alfa
>   stage.

I've contacted Thomas Reulbach on possibly using the www.europython.org
domain, so we will have to wait a bit for his response. Let's avoid 
communication problems and grated nerves this time while we patiently
wait! (gee, what did I do wrong to spark this exchange :)

> - I've seen some of our city politicals last week. They show really good
>   will in helping us (of course, they hope being "enlighted" by the
>   event). Now, we'll need to present a real solid project and ask for
>   precise help. One of the first questions is "When ?" we need the
>   building.

Yup, which is one of the questions I put on the agenda again on this 
list. It's what this thread is about!

We still need Marc Poinot to pop in with his opinion. What do others
think? We have the directly-following LSM option (LSM is 9-11 july), or
we can have alternatively the 'late-in-july' option.

Late in july would avoid stepping on LSM's toes too much, but we'd still
be likely to draw some Pythoneers away from it. Of course it isn't a Python
exclusive event so perhaps this is okay? Late in july may be too much
in the middle of summer holidays perhaps for people to show up, though
if we announce it early we should be able to avoid this problem mostly.

Regards,

Martijn



From mal@lemburg.com  Wed Nov 28 12:08:16 2001
From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:08:16 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011127153833.033afd70@mail.cbu.edu> <20011128013603.B14716@carolo.net> <20011128114606.A20706@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <3C04D3B0.7180EE63@lemburg.com>

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
> > - I've seen some of our city politicals last week. They show really good
> >   will in helping us (of course, they hope being "enlighted" by the
> >   event). Now, we'll need to present a real solid project and ask for
> >   precise help. One of the first questions is "When ?" we need the
> >   building.
> 
> Yup, which is one of the questions I put on the agenda again on this
> list. It's what this thread is about!
> 
> We still need Marc Poinot to pop in with his opinion. What do others
> think? We have the directly-following LSM option (LSM is 9-11 july), or
> we can have alternatively the 'late-in-july' option.
> 
> Late in july would avoid stepping on LSM's toes too much, but we'd still
> be likely to draw some Pythoneers away from it. Of course it isn't a Python
> exclusive event so perhaps this is okay? Late in july may be too much
> in the middle of summer holidays perhaps for people to show up, though
> if we announce it early we should be able to avoid this problem mostly.

How about 24.07. - 26.07. ? 

I think that by moving this closer to the summer holidays we'll 
eventually attract *more* people than at other times. It's only 
important to get the word out (soon)...

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
CEO eGenix.com Software GmbH
______________________________________________________________________
Consulting & Company:                           http://www.egenix.com/
Python Software:                        http://www.lemburg.com/python/


From tom.deprez@village.uunet.be  Wed Nov 28 18:43:57 2001
From: tom.deprez@village.uunet.be (Tom Deprez)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:43:57 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011127153833.033afd70@mail.cbu.edu> <20011128013603.B14716@carolo.net> <20011128114606.A20706@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <006401c1783c$a4e1d900$118d84d5@skullsplitter>

> Denis wrote:
> [snip confusion]
>
> I think Stephan might've been slightly out of the loop and got defensive
> by Tom's reactions (who might've been somewhat out of the loop as well).
> So let's move past this cycle of defensiveness now and just go on to
> discuss things. :)

Sorry, not my intention at all to attack people. If so, sorry.
Probably because of the lack of some english words, things can get a weird
shape..

Regards, Tom.



From Marc.Poinot@onera.fr  Thu Nov 29 10:17:24 2001
From: Marc.Poinot@onera.fr (Marc Poinot)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:17:24 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com> <01a901c17787$5f08d830$118d84d5@skullsplitter> <20011128000712.A18641@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <3C060B34.AE9171E2@onera.fr>

> > Humph, Denis is working on all this, we even discussed in Paris (after the
> > congress), together with Joachim, about the best time schedule. I don't
> > understand, why you don't talk with Denis about this. He's the one with the
> > idea to start a EuroPython event in the first place.
> 
> We *are* talking to Denis, aren't we? He's on the list, after all. But
> yes, Denis is doing a lot of great work on the location and had independently
> the idea about a European Python event before (he said he'd been
> considering having one for a year already when I contacted him, and he
> already contacted Guido as well).
> 
At the time ONERA was a PSA Member, back in 1999, we organized the first Python
event in Europe, and it really was successful, we had 100 people.
At this time we had contact with Christian Tismer to have the German community
with us. And as a matter of fact, we had about 20 German people there.
See ONERA web site archives.
The idea at this time was to make an European event, but I didn't wanted to called 
it European because of the lack of European co-operation.

In 2000, ONERA didn't want to put money again in such an event.
In 2001, I had the chance to join LSM to have a Python event again. This helps a lot
         to have an ready-to-use place, even if this was not the Marriot by the sea.
In 2002, there will be a Python event in Bordeaux.

And now here's the story to come....

In 2002, the first EuroPython took place... with about 350 registrations.
In 2003, the US Python gurus made their first European tour, gathering 7 events
         in Belgium, UK, Germany, Italia, Spain and France... and hum, yes Neetherlands.
In 2004, IPC took place in Berlin
In 2005, Python gurus are moving to Europe, US Python users are complaining and asking 
         for a major event on their side of the sea.

Now, maybe the Zope community think they *are* the Python community. I don't think
so. Most of the people I met in these events where web-developpers of course, but there
also was a lot of scientists. Please do *not* reduce the Python community to the Zope
subset of Python users. The Numerical Python package is used *a lot*.

Again, LSM will happen. If you want to use this place for any form of pre-event,
you're welcome. We can also use LSM as a platform for a post-Europython briefing.
Or you can also ignore LSM, I'm pretty sure it's not a problem, because the audience
are not the same. I'll be at EuroPython (you can recognize me, because I'm missing
the left part of my brain).

Now, the point is not who gets the idea, but who can actually *do*
something. Last year, many people had ideas about what could be best. The
fact is that this year, I'm alone again... 

In 2000 nothing happens, in 2002 there are two events... great ! 

Marcvs [alias Maybe you shouldn't have to take care about LSM, if you can organize
        a first event I think it would be better before LSM. Marc-Andre suggested
        to be close to holiday, but you'll have a student audience, not a bussiness one.]


From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Fri Nov 30 01:03:30 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:03:30 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
In-Reply-To: <3C060B34.AE9171E2@onera.fr>
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com> <01a901c17787$5f08d830$118d84d5@skullsplitter> <20011128000712.A18641@vet.uu.nl> <3C060B34.AE9171E2@onera.fr>
Message-ID: <20011130020330.A27379@vet.uu.nl>

Marc Poinot wrote:
[snip]
> At the time ONERA was a PSA Member, back in 1999, we organized the first
> Python event in Europe, and it really was successful, we had 100 people.

Neat; I somehow managed to miss this was occuring, even though I'd been
using Python for a while then. Too bad, but very good news that there's a
community there that will show up!

> At this time we had contact with Christian Tismer to have the German community
> with us. And as a matter of fact, we had about 20 German people there.

That reminds me; I forget if I actually mailed Christian. I think I did,
but I haven't heard from him yet. Perhaps you can send me a mail, Marc?
  
> See ONERA web site archives.
> The idea at this time was to make an European event, but I didn't wanted
> to called it European because of the lack of European co-operation.

We seem to be doing better on the European cooperation front now.

> In 2000, ONERA didn't want to put money again in such an event.
> In 2001, I had the chance to join LSM to have a Python event again.
> This helps a lot to have an ready-to-use place, even if this was not
> the Marriot by the sea.

I did hear about this one of course, but there was just too much
in a short space of time for me to attend (the Zope conference in Berlin
was around then too).

> In 2002, there will be a Python event in Bordeaux.
> 
> And now here's the story to come....
[snip slightly optimistic predictions :)] 

> Now, maybe the Zope community think they *are* the Python community.
> I don't think so.

The Zope community doesn't think it's the Python community. It's just
many members of the Zope community are members of the Python community
as well -- I was posting on comp.lang.python before I even heard about
Zope (especially as it was still called Principia back then :)

> Most of the people I met in these events where web-developpers of
> course, but there also was a lot of scientists. Please do *not* reduce 
> the Python community to the Zope subset of Python users. The Numerical
> Python package is used *a lot*.

I agree completely, and that's why I've been trying very actively to
reach out to to the Python community. I want this to be a *Python* event at
least as much as it's a Zope event, and that's why 'Python' is in front of
Zope, and this mailing list is called europython.

As I said over on the EuroZope list, Zope users will show up at a Python
event anyway; they're already a community and they know Zope is about
Python. The converse is not true; Python is not automatically about Zope,
so we should take good care to reach out to Pythoneers.

> Again, LSM will happen. If you want to use this place for any form of
> pre-event, you're welcome. We can also use LSM as a platform for a
> post-Europython briefing.

The latter could work if at the conference itself it is decided to organize
some European Python assocation at the conference. To formalize things some of
us could then get together at LSM or something.. 

> Or you can also ignore LSM, I'm pretty sure it's not a problem, because
> the audience are not the same.

Okay, I'll stop worrying too much about LSM and just try to pick the right
date for us. Early july or late june is possible.

> I'll be at EuroPython (you can recognize me, because I'm missing
> the left part of my brain).

Intriguing. :)

> Now, the point is not who gets the idea, but who can actually *do*
> something. Last year, many people had ideas about what could be best. The
> fact is that this year, I'm alone again... 

Yeah, it tends to work that way. Ideas are easier than action.

> In 2000 nothing happens, in 2002 there are two events... great ! 
> 
> Marcvs [alias Maybe you shouldn't have to take care about LSM, if you 
> can organize a first event I think it would be better before LSM. Marc-Andre
> suggested to be close to holiday, but you'll have a student audience, not
> a bussiness one.]

Okay, so we have early july/late june or late july. Time for a vote, I think.
See next mail.

Regards,

Martijn
 


From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Fri Nov 30 01:09:18 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:09:18 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
Message-ID: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl>

Hi there folks,

Could you all please reply to the list and give your vote (and assorted
opinions on which time would be the best for the conference, including
possible other suggestions?)

Some context first:

  * needs to be held summer 2002

  * Try to avoid overlap with other events; LinuxTag is 6-9 june,
    LSM is (tue 9 - thurs 11 july, any others?

Now for some dates:

  * wed 26 - fri 28 june
   
  * wed 24 - fri 26 july 

Your vote please!

Regards,

Martijn
 


From reinoud@xs4all.nl  Fri Nov 30 01:14:40 2001
From: reinoud@xs4all.nl (Reinoud van Leeuwen)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:14:40 GMT
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
In-Reply-To: <20011130020330.A27379@vet.uu.nl>
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com> <01a901c17787$5f08d830$118d84d5@skullsplitter> <20011128000712.A18641@vet.uu.nl> <3C060B34.AE9171E2@onera.fr> <20011130020330.A27379@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <3c0ddd29.2376046297@192.168.1.10>

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:03:30 +0100, you wrote:

>We seem to be doing better on the European cooperation front now.

Well, knowing that is *is* still python we're talking about, I await
an announcement from the Cooperation of Europeans front anytime now!
";-)

--=20
__________________________________________________
"Nothing is as subjective as reality"
Reinoud van Leeuwen       reinoud@xs4all.nl
http://www.xs4all.nl/~reinoud
-> when replying to a mailinglist mail, please do  <-
-> *NOT* cc: me as well. If I read the list I will <-
-> receive the reply as well!                      <-
__________________________________________________


From srichter@cbu.edu  Fri Nov 30 06:23:32 2001
From: srichter@cbu.edu (Stephan Richter)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:23:32 -0600
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
In-Reply-To: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011130002200.02bd2188@mail.cbu.edu>

>   * wed 26 - fri 28 june

Out of totally selfish reasons I am voting for this date. ;-) I might have 
to go back to the States in July already, looking for an apartment 
(especially if I move to Boston...geez).

Regards,
Stephan

--
Stephan Richter
CBU - Physics and Chemistry Student
Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management



From js@aixtraware.de  Fri Nov 30 07:52:50 2001
From: js@aixtraware.de (Joachim Schmitz)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:52:50 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
In-Reply-To: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl>
References: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <91710000.1007106770@js>


my vote:

>
>   * wed 26 - fri 28 june



Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen

Joachim Schmitz

AixtraWare, Ing. B=FCro f=FCr Internetanwendungen
H=FCsgenstr. 33a, D-52457 Aldenhoven
Telefon: +49-2464-8851, FAX: +49-2464-905163



From nicolas.pettiaux@openbe.org  Fri Nov 30 08:27:08 2001
From: nicolas.pettiaux@openbe.org (Nicolas Pettiaux)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:27:08 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
In-Reply-To: <91710000.1007106770@js>
References: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl> <91710000.1007106770@js>
Message-ID: <E169j3V-0001rU-00@bigglesworth.mail.be.easynet.net>

> my vote:
 >   * wed 26 - fri 28 june

Nicolas Pettiaux
--=20
Nicolas Pettiaux
Avenue du P=E9rou 29
B-1000 Brussels


From Marc.Poinot@onera.fr  Fri Nov 30 08:51:34 2001
From: Marc.Poinot@onera.fr (Marc Poinot)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:51:34 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
References: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <3C074896.58AB5F15@onera.fr>

> 
>   * wed 26 - fri 28 june
> 

Sounds the best for me.

Marcvs [alias See you later, alligator...]


From nico@tekNico.net  Fri Nov 30 09:18:22 2001
From: nico@tekNico.net (Nicola Larosa)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:18:22 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
References: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <3C074EDE.10908@tekNico.net>

> Your vote please!


wed 26 - fri 28 june



-- 
"Mozilla will be around long after nobody can remember
just quite what Internet Explorer actually used to be."
   AirLace on Slashdot

Nicola Larosa - nico@tekNico.net



From mal@lemburg.com  Fri Nov 30 09:02:53 2001
From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:02:53 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
References: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <3C074B3D.4E958FE0@lemburg.com>

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
> Hi there folks,
> 
> Could you all please reply to the list and give your vote (and assorted
> opinions on which time would be the best for the conference, including
> possible other suggestions?)
> 
> Some context first:
> 
>   * needs to be held summer 2002
> 
>   * Try to avoid overlap with other events; LinuxTag is 6-9 june,
>     LSM is (tue 9 - thurs 11 july, any others?
> 
> Now for some dates:
> 
>   * wed 26 - fri 28 june
> 
>   * wed 24 - fri 26 july

Both are OK for me. 

What options do we have for the location ? (I remember having seen
Bruxelles, Charleroi, Paris and Amsterdam mentioned on the list.)

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
CEO eGenix.com Software GmbH
______________________________________________________________________
Consulting & Company:                           http://www.egenix.com/
Python Software:                        http://www.lemburg.com/python/




From robin@reportlab.com  Fri Nov 30 10:28:53 2001
From: robin@reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:28:53 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
In-Reply-To: <3C074B3D.4E958FE0@lemburg.com>
References: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl> <3C074B3D.4E958FE0@lemburg.com>
Message-ID: <oR17DVAl91B8Ew1p@jessikat.demon.co.uk>

.......
>>   * wed 26 - fri 28 june
>> 
>>   * wed 24 - fri 26 july
>
>Both are OK for me. 
>
>What options do we have for the location ? (I remember having seen
>Bruxelles, Charleroi, Paris and Amsterdam mentioned on the list.)
>
both dates good for me. Amsterdam?
-- 
Robin Becker


From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de  Fri Nov 30 10:52:46 2001
From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:52:46 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
In-Reply-To: <oR17DVAl91B8Ew1p@jessikat.demon.co.uk>
References: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl> <3C074B3D.4E958FE0@lemburg.com> <oR17DVAl91B8Ew1p@jessikat.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1007117566.3c0764fe97023@webmail.in-berlin.de>

>   * wed 26 - fri 28 june
>   * wed 24 - fri 26 july

Both fine.

> What options do we have for the location ? (I remember having seen
> Bruxelles, Charleroi, Paris and Amsterdam mentioned on the list.)

Paris, Charleroi, Bruxelles; in that order.

Dinu

--
Dinu C. Gherman
................................................................
Whom do you want to kill today? -- http://www.soaw.org/


From Marc.Poinot@onera.fr  Fri Nov 30 10:57:48 2001
From: Marc.Poinot@onera.fr (Marc Poinot)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:57:48 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
References: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl> <3C074B3D.4E958FE0@lemburg.com> <oR17DVAl91B8Ew1p@jessikat.demon.co.uk> <1007117566.3c0764fe97023@webmail.in-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <3C07662C.663961DA@onera.fr>

> > What options do we have for the location ? (I remember having seen
> > Bruxelles, Charleroi, Paris and Amsterdam mentioned on the list.)

[1] Bruxelles 
[2] Charleroi
[3] Amsterdam
[4] Paris :)

Marcvs [alias I already had a drink in Paris]


From mwh@python.net  Fri Nov 30 11:05:42 2001
From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:05:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
In-Reply-To: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0111300604390.20217-100000@starship.python.net>

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Martijn Faassen wrote:

> Hi there folks,
> 
> Could you all please reply to the list and give your vote (and assorted
> opinions on which time would be the best for the conference, including
> possible other suggestions?)
> 
> Some context first:
> 
>   * needs to be held summer 2002
> 
>   * Try to avoid overlap with other events; LinuxTag is 6-9 june,
>     LSM is (tue 9 - thurs 11 july, any others?
> 
> Now for some dates:
> 
>   * wed 26 - fri 28 june
>    
>   * wed 24 - fri 26 july 
> 
> Your vote please!

Makes no odds.

Brussels or Paris are easer to get to for me (Eurostar:).

Cheers,
M.



From arigo@ulb.ac.be  Fri Nov 30 11:43:54 2001
From: arigo@ulb.ac.be (Armin Rigo)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:43:54 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [EuroPython] Vote on the date
In-Reply-To: <20011130020918.B27379@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1011130124001.16478C-100000@aster2.ulb.ac.be>

Hello,

>   * wed 26 - fri 28 june

My vote would go for June because I might not be available later. This is
however a strictly selfish academic opinion. I guess I do not know enough
about business schedules. Please consider this as a subsidiary voice :-)


Armin



From faassen@vet.uu.nl  Fri Nov 30 12:12:44 2001
From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:12:44 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] determining a time
In-Reply-To: <3c0ddd29.2376046297@192.168.1.10>
References: <20011127211617.B17715@vet.uu.nl> <3C03FBF6.AC8559BF@lemburg.com> <01a901c17787$5f08d830$118d84d5@skullsplitter> <20011128000712.A18641@vet.uu.nl> <3C060B34.AE9171E2@onera.fr> <20011130020330.A27379@vet.uu.nl> <3c0ddd29.2376046297@192.168.1.10>
Message-ID: <20011130131244.A28941@vet.uu.nl>

Reinoud van Leeuwen wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:03:30 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >We seem to be doing better on the European cooperation front now.
> 
> Well, knowing that is *is* still python we're talking about, I await
> an announcement from the Cooperation of Europeans front anytime now!
> ";-)

The Python Secret Underground won't let them. :)

Regards,

Martijn