[EuroPython] Undeliverable Message

MAILER-DAEMON@azninfo22.azn.nl MAILER-DAEMON@azninfo22.azn.nl
Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:38:12 +0200


To:            ISMTP@azninfo22@Servers[<europython@python.org>]
Cc:            
Subject:       EuroPython digest, Vol 1 #215 - 15 msgs

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  P. Vrijlandt@aig@azn



VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
    The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------

Send EuroPython mailing list submissions to
	europython@python.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	europython-request@python.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	europython-admin@python.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of EuroPython digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Presentations online (Laura Creighton)
   2. Re: Presentations online (M.-A. Lemburg)
   3. by all means let's keep the slides downloadable...! (Alex Martelli)
   4. Re: by all means let's keep the slides downloadable...! (M.-A. Lemburg)
   5. Re: by all means let's keep the slides downloadable...! (Nicolas Chauvat)
   6. Re: by all means let's keep the slides downloadable...! (Dinu Gherman)
   7. Zope voting modules? (Dinu Gherman)
   8. Creating PDF's on Windows for Free. (Tom Deprez)
   9. Re: Zope voting modules? (Tom Deprez)
  10. $*"*$%* (Tom Deprez)
  11. Re: Presentations online (Nicola Larosa)
  12. Re: $*"*$%* (Nicola Larosa)
  13. Re: Presentations online (Paul Everitt)
  14. Re: Presentations online (Nicolas Chauvat)
  15. Re: Presentations online (Nicola Larosa)

--__--__--

Message: 1
To: Nicolas Chauvat <Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr>
cc: Dinu Gherman <gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de>, europython@python.org,
   lac@strakt.com
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Presentations online 
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:19:56 +0200
From: Laura Creighton <lac@strakt.com>

<snip good stuff>
 
> E-mail is a narrowband medium compared to face-to-face chat. IMHO, the
> main advantage of a conference is to actually meet people. You don't need
> to go to a conf to get a glance at slides, but if you want to ask
> questions to the author or bounce ideas around, you pretty much won't get
> away without going :^). Moreover, on one hand slides are not papers and
> are not meant to convey as much and as detailed information and on the
> other hand, people reading interesting slides could say "I wasn't planning
> on attending, but I need to meet this guy".
> 
> My conclusion: the value of the conference is not as much in the slides
> and talks themselves, but in the meeting of people and the large sharing
> of information and opinions which cannot be done online. In a sense, not
> putting the slides on-line is like telling attendees "we're organizing a
> great event, but can't tell you publicly about the program because you
> wouldn't get as great an edge on people that don't attend and don't pay to
> learn about stuff like you are about to do".
> 
> -- 
> Nicolas Chauvat
> 
 +1000

But it is _ok_ if you are _too busy_ to get the slides to happen.  

I get precisely the same feeling about 'the value of a conference is
that you can get in on some deep secret that non-attendees miss out on'
as 'closed source is better, because only qualified people get to
see the source'.  If so many people have read your presentation, and
studied it up well that giving it would be boring .... then you have
the most incredible opportunity in the world.  A room full of people
who are as well-informed of your project as you could make them.
You lucky dog.  Go explore 'new directions for your project' with
a room full of the most talented, dedicated, creative people in the
business, who still want to talk with you because _they think what
you are doing is interesting_ ... at the very least.

Laura



--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:48:58 +0200
From: "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal@lemburg.com>
Organization: eGenix.com Software GmbH
To: europython@python.org
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Presentations online

To end this discussion:

We have decided to make the pages only available to site managers.
This should enable the track chairmen to upload the data they
receive and makes the whole process of putting the slides
online a matter of adjusting the permissions.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
CEO eGenix.com Software GmbH
______________________________________________________________________
Company & Consulting:                           http://www.egenix.com/
Python Software:                   http://www.egenix.com/files/python/
Meet us at EuroPython 2002:                 http://www.europython.org/




--__--__--

Message: 3
From: Alex Martelli <aleax@aleax.it>
Organization: None in Sight
To: europython@python.org
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:47:44 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] by all means let's keep the slides downloadable...!

I hear there is debate about removing Nicolas Chavaut's presentations from 
the site (for some reason I'm not getting most/all msgs, so pls Cc me 
personally if responding, thanks!).  I hope they stay, and indeed I hope more
presentations go up!  Including mine -- I have the .PPT files ready and if
anybody knows how best to put them into formats acceptable for EuroPython
(such as PDF as mentioned on the site -- I don't have any PPT-to-PDF products 
installed on the Windows-XP laptop where I can run PowerPoint...) I'd be 
overjoyed to send them -- just let me know.

The value of going to a conference is human contact.  If the presenter is any 
good, the actual, real-life, face-to-face, interactive presentation will be 
far more valuable than whatever's on a .PPT (or equivalente) slides 
collection.  The value will also be quite different (not lesser or greater, 
but different) than a paper with the same information -- a paper affords more 
opportunity to reflect, re-read, and ponder, but a live presentation affords 
far more opportunity for _interaction_.  That's why I'm so keen on having my 
slides up well in advance, handouts in people's hands (in advance if that 
could possibly be arranged!) and so on -- the more time I give to the people 
who will be at my talk to study the materials I'll be presenting, the higher 
quality the interaction we'll have during my actual presentation.  The one 
thing I hate most when I present something is to see attenders busy writing 
down the same stuff that's on my slides, which interferes with their 
listening, and asking questions, i.e., with the real potential for "added 
value" of a conference over a bunch of papers.

Personally, all other things being equal, I'd far rather attend a conference 
where I _know_ roughly what will be presented and discussed, rather than one 
where no materials have been made available in advance.


Alex



--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:56:04 +0200
From: "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal@lemburg.com>
Organization: eGenix.com Software GmbH
To: Alex Martelli <aleax@aleax.it>
CC: europython@python.org
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] by all means let's keep the slides downloadable...!

Please, no more discussions about this.

We can make the slides available on day1, but no earlier.
If you want to prepare handouts, that's fine.

Alex Martelli wrote:
> I hear there is debate about removing Nicolas Chavaut's presentations from 
> the site (for some reason I'm not getting most/all msgs, so pls Cc me 
> personally if responding, thanks!).  I hope they stay, and indeed I hope more
> presentations go up!  Including mine -- I have the .PPT files ready and if
> anybody knows how best to put them into formats acceptable for EuroPython
> (such as PDF as mentioned on the site -- I don't have any PPT-to-PDF products 
> installed on the Windows-XP laptop where I can run PowerPoint...) I'd be 
> overjoyed to send them -- just let me know.

Just send me the PPT file (be sure to mark "include fonts" when
saving). I can convert it to PDF then.

> The value of going to a conference is human contact.  If the presenter is any 
> good, the actual, real-life, face-to-face, interactive presentation will be 
> far more valuable than whatever's on a .PPT (or equivalente) slides 
> collection.  The value will also be quite different (not lesser or greater, 
> but different) than a paper with the same information -- a paper affords more 
> opportunity to reflect, re-read, and ponder, but a live presentation affords 
> far more opportunity for _interaction_.  That's why I'm so keen on having my 
> slides up well in advance, handouts in people's hands (in advance if that 
> could possibly be arranged!) and so on -- the more time I give to the people 
> who will be at my talk to study the materials I'll be presenting, the higher 
> quality the interaction we'll have during my actual presentation.  The one 
> thing I hate most when I present something is to see attenders busy writing 
> down the same stuff that's on my slides, which interferes with their 
> listening, and asking questions, i.e., with the real potential for "added 
> value" of a conference over a bunch of papers.
> 
> Personally, all other things being equal, I'd far rather attend a conference 
> where I _know_ roughly what will be presented and discussed, rather than one 
> where no materials have been made available in advance.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
CEO eGenix.com Software GmbH
______________________________________________________________________
Company & Consulting:                           http://www.egenix.com/
Python Software:                   http://www.egenix.com/files/python/
Meet us at EuroPython 2002:                 http://www.europython.org/




--__--__--

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:59:40 +0200 (CEST)
From: Nicolas Chauvat <Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr>
To: Alex Martelli <aleax@aleax.it>
Cc: europython@python.org
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] by all means let's keep the slides downloadable...!

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Alex Martelli wrote:

> I hear there is debate about removing Nicolas Chavaut's presentations from 
> the site (for some reason I'm not getting most/all msgs, so pls Cc me 
> personally if responding, thanks!).  I hope they stay, and indeed I hope more
> presentations go up!  Including mine -- I have the .PPT files ready and if
> anybody knows how best to put them into formats acceptable for EuroPython
> (such as PDF as mentioned on the site -- I don't have any PPT-to-PDF products 
> installed on the Windows-XP laptop where I can run PowerPoint...) I'd be 
> overjoyed to send them -- just let me know.

I can do that. And I'll turn your PPT slides into a PNG+HTML presentation
at the same time. Send it to me.

> The value of going to a conference is human contact.  If the presenter is any 
> ...
> Personally, all other things being equal, I'd far rather attend a conference 
> where I _know_ roughly what will be presented and discussed, rather than one 
> where no materials have been made available in advance.

Yeah ! Way to go. More people with me, we'll win that argument :-))

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

http://www.logilab.com - "Mais o est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France)




--__--__--

Message: 6
To: Alex Martelli <aleax@aleax.it>
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] by all means let's keep the slides downloadable...!
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:09:40 +0200 (CEST)
From: Dinu Gherman <gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de>
Cc: europython@python.org

Just a comment to Alex' and Laura's remarks, not an attempt
to continue this discussion... I feel being dragged on your 
side - ask me again tomorrow and I'll be there! 

If the nature of the conference had been earlier expressed 
more explicitly as one with participants being *expected 
to prepare* for the event (always a good idea, but rarely 
the case) I had never brought this up.

As a self-punishment (deserved or not) I'll try to finish 
my own slides by tomorrow and put them somewhere online, 
hoping not to be too much undermining the organizers' au-
thority. ;-)

Regards,

Dinu



--__--__--

Message: 7
To: europython@python.org
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:11:09 +0200 (CEST)
From: Dinu Gherman <gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de>
Subject: [EuroPython] Zope voting modules?

Hi,

totally unrelated to any ongoing or finished debates I do
wonder if there are any Zope voting products that one could 
have used so far? I'm writing "could" because I think now
it's pretty late already, but well, maybe for next year's 
sequel?

Dinu



--__--__--

Message: 8
Reply-To: "Tom Deprez" <tom@aragne.com>
From: "Tom Deprez" <tom@aragne.com>
To: "Alex Martelli" <aleax@aleax.it>, <europython@python.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:15:45 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Creating PDF's on Windows for Free.

was Re: [EuroPython] by all means let's keep the slides downloadable...!

Alex and others,

There is a nice way to export to PDF on Windows and it is a free one!
What you've to do is first print to a PostScript file, and then a
program can convert that ps file to pdf.
It is a really nice solution. Have a look at :
http://www.lexacorp.com.pg/

Regards,
Tom




--__--__--

Message: 9
Reply-To: "Tom Deprez" <tom@aragne.com>
From: "Tom Deprez" <tom@aragne.com>
To: <europython@python.org>, "Dinu Gherman" <gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de>
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Zope voting modules?
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:16:28 +0200

Dinu Gherman wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> totally unrelated to any ongoing or finished debates I do
> wonder if there are any Zope voting products that one could
> have used so far? 

Yes there are....

> I'm writing "could" because I think now
> it's pretty late already, but well, maybe for next year's sequel?

:-) It's never to late, only somebody has to do it.

Tom.






--__--__--

Message: 10
Reply-To: "Tom Deprez" <tom@aragne.com>
From: "Tom Deprez" <tom@aragne.com>
To: <europython@python.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:23:25 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] $*"*$%*

Hi,

Who closed the database connection on the site?

Tom.




--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:33:02 +0200
From: Nicola Larosa <nico@tekNico.net>
To: europython@python.org
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Presentations online

Sorry for the flame, I'm not really in the organization, I just translated 
the press release to Italian, and am paying to come to Charleroi, but I'm 
feeling rebellious. :^)


> To end this discussion:
 > ...
 > Please, no more discussions about this.

Sorry, can't comply. *You* better avoid trying to censor anyone.


> We have decided to make the pages only available to site managers.

For the record, "We" being who?


I made a count of opinions on the matter.


The Soviet bureaucrats, "don't give away the goods too soon" bean-counters 
are (in order of appearence):

M. A. "Breznev" Lemburg
Dinu Gherman
Godefroid Chapelle
Joachim Schmitz


The Free Software philosophers, "we do it for the people" face-to-face 
cravers are:

Nicolas Chauvat
Laura Creighton ("+1000"? "You lucky dog"? I like this gal! ;^) )
Alex Martelli
Nicola Larosa (you guessed it)


*** LATEST NEWS: Dinu Gherman is going to the other side! ***


The poor sod caught in the middle of all this is:

Tom Deprez

(By the way, Tom, I really appreciate all the work you're putting into this.)


So, it looks like there isn't all that consensus yet, right? Let's put it 
more clearly: what makes you think you three are right, while at least four 
people are wrong, and telling us to just shut up?!? Come on, please!


(Now, where the heck did I put that asbesto suite I bought for Python 
conferences?)


-- 
"Too much cleverness in the parser can turn against you."
   Guido Van Rossum

Nicola Larosa - nico@tekNico.net




--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:33:50 +0200
From: Nicola Larosa <nico@tekNico.net>
To: europython@python.org
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] $*"*$%*

> Who closed the database connection on the site?

Probably a coup-de-foudre of the Soviet Bureaucrats. ;^)


-- 
"Too much cleverness in the parser can turn against you."
   Guido Van Rossum

Nicola Larosa - nico@tekNico.net




--__--__--

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:47:21 -0400
From: Paul Everitt <paul@zope.com>
Organization: Zope Corporation
To: Nicola Larosa <nico@tekNico.net>
CC: europython@python.org
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Presentations online


For the record, I don't feel censored.  I'm glad Marc-Andre is stepping 
in to make a decision and bring something to conclusion.  I don't think 
arguing every single point all the way up to the actual day of the 
conference is a recipe for success.

There is a group of people that have participated in every single IRC 
chat and have done actual work to plan the conference.  You can call 
them Brezhnev.  I call them admirable.

There's even a group of three people acting as an executive committee 
that agreed to bear the burden of responsibility, and we all agreed that 
they'd get some authority.  You might have missed this, but it was all 
discussed on this list.

In order for things to actually **get done** we all have to concede some 
amount of control to the people actually doing the work.  Sometimes this 
means living with decisions we don't like.  We have to be mature enough 
as a group to let the decision-makers make decisions, without extreme 
claims of "censorship" when your position doesn't win.

If it is something truly critical, then keep arguing.  But whether we 
make presentations available before the conference or not isn't life 
threatening, IMO.

--Paul

Nicola Larosa wrote:
> Sorry for the flame, I'm not really in the organization, I just 
> translated the press release to Italian, and am paying to come to 
> Charleroi, but I'm feeling rebellious. :^)
> 
> 
>> To end this discussion:
> 
>  > ...
>  > Please, no more discussions about this.
> 
> Sorry, can't comply. *You* better avoid trying to censor anyone.
> 
> 
>> We have decided to make the pages only available to site managers.
> 
> 
> For the record, "We" being who?
> 
> 
> I made a count of opinions on the matter.
> 
> 
> The Soviet bureaucrats, "don't give away the goods too soon" 
> bean-counters are (in order of appearence):
> 
> M. A. "Breznev" Lemburg
> Dinu Gherman
> Godefroid Chapelle
> Joachim Schmitz
> 
> 
> The Free Software philosophers, "we do it for the people" face-to-face 
> cravers are:
> 
> Nicolas Chauvat
> Laura Creighton ("+1000"? "You lucky dog"? I like this gal! ;^) )
> Alex Martelli
> Nicola Larosa (you guessed it)
> 
> 
> *** LATEST NEWS: Dinu Gherman is going to the other side! ***
> 
> 
> The poor sod caught in the middle of all this is:
> 
> Tom Deprez
> 
> (By the way, Tom, I really appreciate all the work you're putting into 
> this.)
> 
> 
> So, it looks like there isn't all that consensus yet, right? Let's put 
> it more clearly: what makes you think you three are right, while at 
> least four people are wrong, and telling us to just shut up?!? Come on, 
> please!
> 
> 
> (Now, where the heck did I put that asbesto suite I bought for Python 
> conferences?)
> 
> 






--__--__--

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:23:23 +0200 (CEST)
From: Nicolas Chauvat <Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr>
To: Nicola Larosa <nico@tekNico.net>
Cc: europython@python.org
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Presentations online

> The Soviet bureaucrats, "don't give away the goods too soon" bean-counters 
> are (in order of appearence):
> 
> M. A. "Breznev" Lemburg

Er, "Soviet Bureaucrat" might be ok with a huge-tongue-in-cheek, but take
care not to call him a nazi, or that would end the discussion too early
for us to get our point across... (Jon Dyte, are you around ? ;-)

MAL, Denis and Tom have done an awful lot of work for the conference. I
you want them to change their mind about something, you'd better buy them
a beer once there than start a true flamewar about a sensible subject.

I appreciate any help to prove my position is better though ;-)

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

http://www.logilab.com - "Mais o est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France)





--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:35:39 +0200
From: Nicola Larosa <nico@tekNico.net>
To: europython@python.org
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Presentations online

First, I apologize for having been harsh. I just don't feel like being told 
to shut up. And a good part of is actually was tongue-in-cheek, after all.


> In order for things to actually **get done** we all have to concede some 
> amount of control to the people actually doing the work.  Sometimes this 
> means living with decisions we don't like.  We have to be mature enough 
> as a group to let the decision-makers make decisions, without extreme 
> claims of "censorship" when your position doesn't win.

Sorry, Paul, I don't buy this.

Sure, the charter of this list is the organization of Europython, sure, 
three people have been delegated some powers, sure, we have to accept their 
decisions, if we wish to let them work.

But in this case the work *had already been done*. The stuff was already on 
the site, and this decision does not build anything, just takes something back.

Such a policy decision better be sustained by a clear consensus. Instead, 
one member of the executive committee openly chooses to ignore the opinions 
of a substantial chunk of the contributing people, and takes back something 
valuable, while shutting down any contrary opinion.

A case of "public servant gone bad", if I ever saw one.

Besides, wasn't all this about open access to tools and information? Suppose 
right now speakers put slides and papers on sites of their own, what are you 
going to do, ask them to take those down?


-- 
"Too much cleverness in the parser can turn against you."
   Guido Van Rossum

Nicola Larosa - nico@tekNico.net





--__--__--

_______________________________________________
EuroPython mailing list
EuroPython@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


End of EuroPython Digest