From john at clocksoft.com  Fri Apr  1 07:20:54 2005
From: john at clocksoft.com (John Pinner)
Date: Fri Apr  1 07:20:58 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] IRC meeting Tuesday 5 April 18.00 CET
In-Reply-To: <200503311737.05363.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200503311737.05363.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <424CDA36.5060506@clocksoft.com>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> I would like to hold an IRC meeting on Tuesday 5 April at 18.00 CET.

Sorry, Jacob. I am travelling back to the UK that day and can't make it.

Regards,

John
--
John Pinner

> The place is as usual the #europython channel on the freenode network.
> 
> I will distribute an agenda for the meeting before it starts. Hopefully I'll 
> be able to do it Monday.
> 
> There are a number of things that need to be discussed, and I will mention a 
> couple here.
> 
> 1. The lack of volunteers and the absence of active people.
> 
> This has been a problem to the extent that I have considered dropping my work 
> on Europython. However, I have decided that I will continue. I think I can 
> pull something off with the current level of involvement of others, though a 
> lot of things will not get done, and our schedules may slip further.
> 
> I would like to say that the efforts put in by Laura and Jean-Marc have been 
> fantastic, and some track chairs have been quite responsive, but it takes 
> more people and more engagement if we are to repeat the success of last year.
> 
> I will do my best to structure the tasks that need doing before the meeting, 
> so that there will be suitable packages for people to grab.
> 
> 2. We lack a keynote speaker
> 
> Guido is coming. He confirmed this with me at Europython. However, I had no 
> response from Adele Goldberg. I don't know if I reached her at all at the 
> email address I managed to dig up.
> 
> 
> Jacob
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 
> Scanned for viruses by MailDefender
> 
> 


intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com)

From sjors at amaze.nl  Fri Apr  1 09:52:23 2005
From: sjors at amaze.nl (Sjors Robroek)
Date: Fri Apr  1 09:52:33 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Launch of website
In-Reply-To: <200503311751.15945.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200503311714.40076.jacob@strakt.com>
	<20050331153508.GE28481@amaze.nl> <200503311751.15945.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <1112341943.8250.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Everyone,

The Europython development instance and live instance have just been
switched. The instance that was located on europython-develop.zope.nl
has been moved to europython.org/europython.zope.nl. The old europython
site is still available on europython-develop.zope.nl.

If anything else should be done, please let us know.

Greetings,

-- 
Sjors Robroek

Amaze
Korte Leidsedwarsstraat 12
1017 RC Amsterdam
Tel:    +31-20-4688336
Fax:    +31-20-4688337
Web:    http://www.amaze.nl
Email:  sjors@amaze.nl

From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Fri Apr  1 10:04:35 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Fri Apr  1 10:04:37 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] just noticed...
Message-ID: <7be3f35d0504010004128472b2@mail.gmail.com>

please have a look at the file - extension within one of the best mail
applications...

http://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=8260


Best wishes,

Harald

good companies use python.

-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
From ivo at amaze.nl  Fri Apr  1 10:33:59 2005
From: ivo at amaze.nl (Ivo van der Wijk)
Date: Fri Apr  1 10:34:02 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Launch of website
In-Reply-To: <1112341943.8250.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200503311714.40076.jacob@strakt.com>
	<20050331153508.GE28481@amaze.nl>
	<200503311751.15945.jacob@strakt.com>
	<1112341943.8250.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20050401083359.GG28481@amaze.nl>

On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 09:52:23AM +0200, Sjors Robroek wrote:
> Everyone,
> 
> The Europython development instance and live instance have just been
> switched. The instance that was located on europython-develop.zope.nl
> has been moved to europython.org/europython.zope.nl. The old europython
> site is still available on europython-develop.zope.nl.
> 
> If anything else should be done, please let us know.
> 

I think europython used to have a piece of secure webspace (https) on
https://secure.zope.nl/europy -- please let me know if this is/will be
required for the new site (and where it should map to)

Also, please check if the instance's root is still accessible (I know
very little about your current setup, else I'd check myself)

Cheers

        Ivo

-- 
Drs. I.R. van der Wijk                                      -=-
Korte Leidsedwarsstraat 12                                 Amaze
1017 RC Amsterdam, NL                                       -=-
T +31-20-4688336         F +31-20-4688337       Zope/Plone/Content Management
W http://www.amaze.nl    E info@amaze.nl           Open Source Solutions
W http://vanderwijk.info E ivo@amaze.nl                 Consultancy
PGP http://vanderwijk.info/pgp   
From jmo at chalmers.se  Fri Apr  1 12:23:54 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Fri Apr  1 12:24:10 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Launch of website
In-Reply-To: <20050401083359.GG28481@amaze.nl>
References: <200503311714.40076.jacob@strakt.com>	<20050331153508.GE28481@amaze.nl>	<200503311751.15945.jacob@strakt.com>	<1112341943.8250.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20050401083359.GG28481@amaze.nl>
Message-ID: <424D213A.5090409@chalmers.se>

Ivo van der Wijk wrote:

>On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 09:52:23AM +0200, Sjors Robroek wrote:
>  
>
>>Everyone,
>>
>>The Europython development instance and live instance have just been
>>switched. The instance that was located on europython-develop.zope.nl
>>has been moved to europython.org/europython.zope.nl. The old europython
>>site is still available on europython-develop.zope.nl.
>>
>>If anything else should be done, please let us know.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>I think europython used to have a piece of secure webspace (https) on
>https://secure.zope.nl/europy -- please let me know if this is/will be
>required for the new site (and where it should map to)
>
>Also, please check if the instance's root is still accessible (I know
>very little about your current setup, else I'd check myself)
>
>Cheers
>
>        Ivo
>
>  
>

Everything seems OK - I had to clean the portlet cache though since the
images contained references to the  old server.

Having an https connection would be great. What needs to be done for that?

the ZMI is at http://www.europython.org:8093/

regards
/JM






From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Fri Apr  1 13:11:51 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Fri Apr  1 13:12:06 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] IRC meeting Tuesday 5 April 18.00 CET
In-Reply-To: <200503311737.05363.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200503311737.05363.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <424D2C77.90909@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> I would like to hold an IRC meeting on Tuesday 5 April at 18.00 CET.

excellent idea, i'll certainly try tobe there.

> The place is as usual the #europython channel on the freenode network.
> 
> I will distribute an agenda for the meeting before it starts. Hopefully I'll 
> be able to do it Monday.
> 
> There are a number of things that need to be discussed, and I will mention a 
> couple here.
> 
> 1. The lack of volunteers and the absence of active people.
> 
> This has been a problem to the extent that I have considered dropping my work 
> on Europython. However, I have decided that I will continue. I think I can 
> pull something off with the current level of involvement of others, though a 
> lot of things will not get done, and our schedules may slip further.

well, I for one have been waiting to hear what practical issues need to 
be dealt with, thus have been expecting to hear from you about any 
outstanding issues that I can help out with.

Personally I have little to contribute in terms of being track chair, 
but I have no problems helping out with the practical things.

My impression was that you had assumed the role of co-ordinator, so I've 
been waiting for a coordination report and what chores need to be dealt 
with. There has to be a coordinating entity that manages the whole 
picture, it is not possible to manage this any other way.

So far I have been trying to arrange the same space for Sprint and 
Post-Conference Lounge that we had last year, and trying to arrange for 
better net-access in that same area as we had last year. Things look 
bright, so far but no definitive answers yet.

I also have been preparing for the net-access on the conference area but 
I have been waiting for an definitve description of what needs to be 
improved. Like I said last year, there is not much room for improvement 
w.r.t to wired access, nor is it possible to have non-authenticated 
wireless.

I am working on solutions to the non-wireless problem, but I do not know 
how much of an issue it is to have to *login* to the network as was 
reported from the evaluation. My hopes are that this is a non-issue, but 
then again, people can get very upset about such things...

I appreciate fully that co-ordinating EPC gets in the way of 
pay-for-food-and-rent work and what kind of conflict that may be to have 
to prioritise real work instead of EPC work.

So, if there is a need for it, the I am prepared to step in to help 
out/take care of some the coordination, but not all. I have no real 
contacts in the Python world as some of you guys have, so like I said 
before, I can do very little in terms of track chairing of 
suggesting/prodding possible Keynote speakers and that kind of work.

But I can probably dig up one or two people more so that we may 
coordinate everything else, but in order to do that I need to know that 
there is a need, and that I won't step on someones toes.

> I would like to say that the efforts put in by Laura and Jean-Marc have been 
> fantastic, and some track chairs have been quite responsive, but it takes 
> more people and more engagement if we are to repeat the success of last year.

Indeed. Hear, hear.

> I will do my best to structure the tasks that need doing before the meeting, 
> so that there will be suitable packages for people to grab.
> 

excellent.

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From andy at reportlab.com  Fri Apr  1 14:53:55 2005
From: andy at reportlab.com (andy@reportlab.com)
Date: Fri Apr  1 14:53:58 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Three weeks to go to Python-UK
Message-ID: <andyrobinson-049woA2GDH+kEXqBZvygykgInnUFtFG@mailblocks.com>

There are just three weeks to go to Python-UK!

The UK Python conference is once again taking place at the
Randolph Hotel in the centre of historic Oxford, as part of
the ACCU conference, on 21-23 April.

  http://www.accu.org/conference/python.html

On Tuesday 19th there's also a full day tutorial for intermediate
and advanced Python programmers, given by Michele Simionato,
at a fraction of the price of most professional training courses.
There are just a few places remaining, so book quickly!

  http://www.accu.org/conference/python_tutorial.html

Anyone attending the event is free to move between tracks and learn
from a world-class program on patterns, agile development,
Java, C++ and C# as well as Python.

Best Regards,

Andy Robinson
Python-UK Conference chair
From jacob at strakt.com  Fri Apr  1 23:29:38 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Fri Apr  1 23:29:41 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
Message-ID: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>

Hi all.

We are now public with the webiste. Information will go out tomorrow.

I think I have the talk registration fully working now. Please report any bugs 
you find. We are also officially open for talk submissions, so if you plan on 
speaking, please start sending in your stuff.

I have found a few problems with the site, and I'm sure there will be more as 
we move along.

The first one is that the search box doesn't seem to work. 

The second one is that the banner ad alternates between the Strakt banner and 
one which is a box saying "Full banner". Please get rid of this and add the 
banners of other sponsoring organisations.

Third, I don't know how to affect the "latest site changes" box. It would be 
nice to be able to control what goes into it.

Fourth, I would like the date and place to be in a stronger font (equivalent 
to an <h4> heading.

Fifth, I wonder how the images of the day are swapped around. I have plenty 
more images that we could be showing.

Sixth, the "Contact Information" at the bottom of the page is not a link. It 
probably should be.

Best regards

Jacob
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Sat Apr  2 08:24:37 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Sat Apr  2 08:24:53 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
In-Reply-To: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <424E3AA5.5090605@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> Hi all.
> 
> We are now public with the webiste. Information will go out tomorrow.
> 
> I think I have the talk registration fully working now. Please report any bugs 
> you find. We are also officially open for talk submissions, so if you plan on 
> speaking, please start sending in your stuff.
> 
> I have found a few problems with the site, and I'm sure there will be more as 
> we move along.
> 
> The first one is that the search box doesn't seem to work. 

in what way? it works for me (did a search on sprint, g?teborg, 
chalmers, python, talks). What is a bit confusuing is that the automatic 
popup only seems to display "venue" for some search words, which is bad 
(ie. searching for "talks" displays the "venue" which is just plain 
wrong). If it is hard to fix, I suggest to just remove the pop-up 
functionality.

> Third, I don't know how to affect the "latest site changes" box. It would be 
> nice to be able to control what goes into it.

I believe that this is a built in functionality of the site framwork, 
and that it automatically tracks all changes made. I am curious as to 
why would you want to  inhibit or add to this "journal entry" box manually?

Cheers,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From jmo at chalmers.se  Sat Apr  2 10:48:48 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Sat Apr  2 10:49:05 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
In-Reply-To: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <424E5C70.6040106@chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:

>Hi all.
>
>We are now public with the webiste. Information will go out tomorrow.
>
>I think I have the talk registration fully working now. Please report any bugs 
>you find. We are also officially open for talk submissions, so if you plan on 
>speaking, please start sending in your stuff.
>
>I have found a few problems with the site, and I'm sure there will be more as 
>we move along.
>
>The first one is that the search box doesn't seem to work. 
>
>  
>

yes it does, it's just that you have published only 1 document so far
called 'Venue'


>The second one is that the banner ad alternates between the Strakt banner and 
>one which is a box saying "Full banner". Please get rid of this and add the 
>banners of other sponsoring organisations.
>  
>

which are?? I have asked several times about banners and received none.

>Third, I don't know how to affect the "latest site changes" box. It would be 
>nice to be able to control what goes into it.
>
>  
>

publish a document and it will be displayed in it.

>Fourth, I would like the date and place to be in a stronger font (equivalent 
>to an <h4> heading.
>
>  
>
ok

>Fifth, I wonder how the images of the day are swapped around. I have plenty 
>more images that we could be showing.
>
>  
>
send them

>Sixth, the "Contact Information" at the bottom of the page is not a link. It 
>probably should be.
>
>  
>
a link to what?

best

>Best regards
>
>Jacob
>  
>


It's
From jmo at chalmers.se  Sat Apr  2 11:31:38 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Sat Apr  2 11:31:55 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] boxes on the front page
Message-ID: <424E667A.4050001@chalmers.se>


Hi!

for your information, here is the list of boxes on the front page

http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/portlets.png

- published events are seen under 'Upcoming events'
- published news are seen under 'Latest News'
- latest published documents are seen under 'Latest Site Updates'


Jakob: if you want a news item to appear on the front page, create a
news document and publish it somewhere on the site. If you want to tell
about an upcoming event, create an 'Event' and publish it somewhere on
the site.

this is standard CMF/CPS/Plone behaviour, i.e. documents must be
published before they appear in those boxes.

otherwise:
- Images are set manually

- Internal links to documents (sort of 'Site focus') are set manually

regards
/JM



From gietz at s.netic.de  Sat Apr  2 13:09:48 2005
From: gietz at s.netic.de (gietz@s.netic.de)
Date: Sat Apr  2 13:09:52 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Talk registration
Message-ID: <1112440188.424e7d7cdc132@webmail.LF.net>

Hello,

I have just submitted a talk proposal (in the Misfits section). It was -- umm --
interesting, since because of my broken browser I had to guess the meaning of
the text boxes from the HTML. I hope the proposal hasn't fallen appart...

Anyway, what is expected to be put in the bio? My bio is sort of "fragmented",
definitely non-standard. No degree for example and I am 27. I suppose I could
concentrate on my own projects instead?

Best,
Volker

From jacob at strakt.com  Sat Apr  2 15:31:18 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Sat Apr  2 15:31:48 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
In-Reply-To: <424E5C70.6040106@chalmers.se>
References: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>
	<424E5C70.6040106@chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <200504021531.18719.jacob@strakt.com>

l?rdag 02 april 2005 10.48 skrev Jean-Marc Orliaguet:
> Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> >Hi all.
> >
> >We are now public with the webiste. Information will go out tomorrow.
> >
> >I think I have the talk registration fully working now. Please report any
> > bugs you find. We are also officially open for talk submissions, so if
> > you plan on speaking, please start sending in your stuff.
> >
> >I have found a few problems with the site, and I'm sure there will be more
> > as we move along.
> >
> >The first one is that the search box doesn't seem to work.
>
> yes it does, it's just that you have published only 1 document so far
> called 'Venue'

Ahh, this must have been done without me noticing. How do I publish something? 
I can't find a box to click in that says "Publish".

> >The second one is that the banner ad alternates between the Strakt banner
> > and one which is a box saying "Full banner". Please get rid of this and
> > add the banners of other sponsoring organisations.
>
> which are?? I have asked several times about banners and received none.

Yes, this is not your fault. I don't know who supplies the Chalmers one,or the 
Amaze one. They should submit their stuff.

> >Third, I don't know how to affect the "latest site changes" box. It would
> > be nice to be able to control what goes into it.
>
> publish a document and it will be displayed in it.

Ok, we will see how this works for us. In general I'm sceptical about 
mechanising the contents of our front page, but it may work out that this is 
reasonable.

> >Fourth, I would like the date and place to be in a stronger font
> > (equivalent to an <h4> heading.
>
> ok
>
> >Fifth, I wonder how the images of the day are swapped around. I have
> > plenty more images that we could be showing.
>
> send them

Ok, will do.

> >Sixth, the "Contact Information" at the bottom of the page is not a link.
> > It probably should be.
>
> a link to what?

I suppose to a web page where we can enter contact information. If we are 
consistent in our approach, the CMS provides "holes" for us to put 
information in, which we then fill in. Having a general procedure where we do 
this, and then an exception where we are supposed to provide the information 
first, and then the hole to put it in is created afterwards is quite 
bewildering.

In any case, having the words "CONTACT INFORMATION" at the bottom of the page, 
without it linking to anything is probably rather irritating to a visitor to 
the site, and we should do something about it.

I don't know exactly what contact information to put in the page. People are 
sensitive about giving out their email addresses these days, though I would 
like to make it possible for people to contact the track chairs. I'm going to 
bring up the subject on Tuesday.

Jacob
From jmo at chalmers.se  Sat Apr  2 15:56:17 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Sat Apr  2 15:56:35 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
In-Reply-To: <200504021531.18719.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>
	<424E5C70.6040106@chalmers.se>
	<200504021531.18719.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <424EA481.5030804@chalmers.se>

Jacob Hallen wrote:

>l?rdag 02 april 2005 10.48 skrev Jean-Marc Orliaguet:
>  
>
>>Jacob Hall?n wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Hi all.
>>>
>>>We are now public with the webiste. Information will go out tomorrow.
>>>
>>>I think I have the talk registration fully working now. Please report any
>>>bugs you find. We are also officially open for talk submissions, so if
>>>you plan on speaking, please start sending in your stuff.
>>>
>>>I have found a few problems with the site, and I'm sure there will be more
>>>as we move along.
>>>
>>>The first one is that the search box doesn't seem to work.
>>>      
>>>
>>yes it does, it's just that you have published only 1 document so far
>>called 'Venue'
>>    
>>
>
>Ahh, this must have been done without me noticing. How do I publish something? 
>I can't find a box to click in that says "Publish".
>
>  
>

Hi, it's the 'submit' button

http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/content.html

just create something in a workspace and  publish it in one of the
sections. That's the "normal" workflow.

>>>The second one is that the banner ad alternates between the Strakt banner
>>>and one which is a box saying "Full banner". Please get rid of this and
>>>add the banners of other sponsoring organisations.
>>>      
>>>
>>which are?? I have asked several times about banners and received none.
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, this is not your fault. I don't know who supplies the Chalmers one,or the 
>Amaze one. They should submit their stuff.
>
>  
>


Chalmers will get a new banner soon.

the sizes is:

- 468x60 for top banners
- 160x320 for side banners

>>>Third, I don't know how to affect the "latest site changes" box. It would
>>>be nice to be able to control what goes into it.
>>>      
>>>
>>publish a document and it will be displayed in it.
>>    
>>
>
>Ok, we will see how this works for us. In general I'm sceptical about 
>mechanising the contents of our front page, but it may work out that this is 
>reasonable.
>
>  
>

It's half-mechanized. Some  links can be added manually, and BTW these
are just portlets, these can be changed easily, so there's nothing to
worry about.
 

>>>Fourth, I would like the date and place to be in a stronger font
>>>(equivalent to an <h4> heading.
>>>      
>>>
>>ok
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Fifth, I wonder how the images of the day are swapped around. I have
>>>plenty more images that we could be showing.
>>>      
>>>
>>send them
>>    
>>
>
>Ok, will do.
>
>  
>
>>>Sixth, the "Contact Information" at the bottom of the page is not a link.
>>>It probably should be.
>>>      
>>>
>>a link to what?
>>    
>>
>
>I suppose to a web page where we can enter contact information. If we are 
>consistent in our approach, the CMS provides "holes" for us to put 
>information in, which we then fill in. Having a general procedure where we do 
>this, and then an exception where we are supposed to provide the information 
>first, and then the hole to put it in is created afterwards is quite 
>bewildering.
>  
>
>In any case, having the words "CONTACT INFORMATION" at the bottom of the page, 
>without it linking to anything is probably rather irritating to a visitor to 
>the site, and we should do something about it.
>
>I don't know exactly what contact information to put in the page. People are 
>sensitive about giving out their email addresses these days, though I would 
>like to make it possible for people to contact the track chairs. I'm going to 
>bring up the subject on Tuesday.
>
>Jacob
>  
>

apart from the CMS discussion about what should come first in theory,
the 'CONTACT INFORMATION' text without a link just makes it more obvious
for everyone that some contact information is actually missing. I can
remove it but it won't make it easier for visitors to get in contact
with the organisers.

regards

/JM


From jacob at strakt.com  Sat Apr  2 17:30:04 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Sat Apr  2 17:30:19 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Talk registration
In-Reply-To: <1112440188.424e7d7cdc132@webmail.LF.net>
References: <1112440188.424e7d7cdc132@webmail.LF.net>
Message-ID: <200504021730.04403.jacob@strakt.com>

l?rdag 02 april 2005 13.09 skrev gietz@s.netic.de:
> Hello,
>
> I have just submitted a talk proposal (in the Misfits section). It was --
> umm -- interesting, since because of my broken browser I had to guess the
> meaning of the text boxes from the HTML. I hope the proposal hasn't fallen
> appart...

It looks good. Thanks!
>
> Anyway, what is expected to be put in the bio? My bio is sort of
> "fragmented", definitely non-standard. No degree for example and I am 27. I
> suppose I could concentrate on my own projects instead?

Say something about yourself that promotes interest in listening to your talk.

Jacob
From pedronis at strakt.com  Sat Apr  2 17:47:50 2005
From: pedronis at strakt.com (Samuele Pedroni)
Date: Sat Apr  2 17:46:14 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
In-Reply-To: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <424EBEA6.4040508@strakt.com>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> Hi all.
> 
> We are now public with the webiste. Information will go out tomorrow.
> 
> I think I have the talk registration fully working now. Please report any bugs 
> you find. We are also officially open for talk submissions,

I fixed some inner anchors mismatch and problems on the propose a talk 
page, now all the links in the overview bring you to the corresponding para.

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Sat Apr  2 23:03:24 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Sat Apr  2 23:03:42 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Dates for sprinting
Message-ID: <424F089C.1000908@ita.chalmers.se>

Hello all,

it is time to decide days for sprinting, before and after the 
conference. I am working on aquiring last years sprinting and 
post-conference area again, but I need dates.

My initial suggestion is to secure the space for approximately two 
weeks, from monday 20/6 to sunday 4/7, but we probably can 
increase-decrease the dates (i.e. we can extend it some day and or delay 
it some days).

I am also working on having somewhat improved network in the sprinting 
area, meaning that we can use the existing infrastructure to provide 
cabled net access for the sprint area, with possibel extension to some 
of the adjascent(sp?) rooms.

However this means that we need to bring cables and network equipmenat 
ourselves, and my plan is to coordinate. If we cannot arrange to bring 
network equipment, we can fallback on last years wireless solution.

I am also looking into improving the coffee availability by borrowing 
some brewers, and I am looking for sponsors of caffeinated and other 
beverages. Any company representatives willing to step forward?

Finally I will notbe able to participate fully this year as I did last 
year - apart from work, the Swedish Linux Society is having their IRL 
meeting the weekend following EPC, so I will be abscent at times.

This means that in order to carry this out I need a bunch of volunteers 
to help out with practical and logistical (ie helping out with cleaning, 
and stuff) issues when the sprinting happens.

So, what are peoples plans? I need to know by approximate wednesday at 
the *latest* some rough estimates to give to my boss (he makes the 
negotiating for me :-).

Cheers,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From magnus at thinkware.se  Sun Apr  3 01:26:22 2005
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka)
Date: Sun Apr  3 01:26:26 2005
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBXZWJzaXRlIHRoaW5ncw==?=
Message-ID: <think001_424f28c08a42c@webmail.thinkware.se>

> We are now public with the webiste. Information will go out tomorrow.

I think this is a major improvement from last year! I'd like to thank
and congratulate all who contributed.
 
The only glitch I noticed was outside the site. :-) It seems goteborg.com
has been redesigned, so the map URL is no longer valid, and as far as I
understand, it's only in Swedish and English these days. This means that
http://www.europython.org/sections/location/general_information isn't
quite right.


Thanks again. See you soon!

/Magnus

-- 
Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB
http://www.thinkware.se/  mailto:magnus@thinkware.se
From tom at aragne.com  Sun Apr  3 11:32:39 2005
From: tom at aragne.com (tom)
Date: Sun Apr  3 11:32:39 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
References: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com><424E5C70.6040106@chalmers.se>
	<200504021531.18719.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <006301c53830$17bd1320$1b00a8c0@simkin>

Yes, this is not your fault. I don't know who supplies the Chalmers one,or 
the
Amaze one. They should submit their stuff.

Please contact Amaze. They will send a banner quickly.

From tom at aragne.com  Sun Apr  3 11:35:28 2005
From: tom at aragne.com (tom)
Date: Sun Apr  3 11:35:28 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
References: <think001_424f28c08a42c@webmail.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <007201c53830$7c064ae0$1b00a8c0@simkin>

>I think this is a major improvement from last year! I'd like to thank and 
>congratulate all who contributed.

Yup, but it would be great if links were provided to the older sites (or the 
front pages)... just for the history of europython


From mwh at python.net  Sun Apr  3 15:57:47 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Sun Apr  3 15:57:49 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Dates for sprinting
In-Reply-To: <424F089C.1000908@ita.chalmers.se> (
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten's_message_of?= "Sat, 02 Apr 2005
	23:03:24 +0200")
References: <424F089C.1000908@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <2msm28c690.fsf@starship.python.net>

Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario@ita.chalmers.se> writes:

> it is time to decide days for sprinting, before and after the
> conference. I am working on aquiring last years sprinting and
> post-conference area again, but I need dates.

Hurrah!

> My initial suggestion is to secure the space for approximately two
> weeks, from monday 20/6 to sunday 4/7, but we probably can
> increase-decrease the dates (i.e. we can extend it some day and or
> delay it some days).

Two weeks sounds a bit excessive... but really, I have no opinion
myself on the dates.

> This means that in order to carry this out I need a bunch of
> volunteers to help out with practical and logistical (ie helping out
> with cleaning, and stuff) issues when the sprinting happens.

I'm willing to help with stuff like this, but I'm not a local and
don't speak Swedish...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  <glyph> It's just like a method call, but ON FIRE AND UPSIDE DOWN!!!
                                                -- from Twisted.Quotes
From mwh at python.net  Sun Apr  3 16:00:39 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Sun Apr  3 16:00:42 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] IRC meeting Tuesday 5 April 18.00 CET
In-Reply-To: <424D2C77.90909@ita.chalmers.se> (
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten's_message_of?= "Fri, 01 Apr 2005
	13:11:51 +0200")
References: <200503311737.05363.jacob@strakt.com>
	<424D2C77.90909@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <2moecwc648.fsf@starship.python.net>

Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario@ita.chalmers.se> writes:

> I also have been preparing for the net-access on the conference area
> but I have been waiting for an definitve description of what needs to
> be improved. Like I said last year, there is not much room for
> improvement w.r.t to wired access, nor is it possible to have
> non-authenticated wireless.
>
> I am working on solutions to the non-wireless problem, but I do not
> know how much of an issue it is to have to *login* to the network as
> was reported from the evaluation. My hopes are that this is a
> non-issue, but then again, people can get very upset about such
> things...

Well, it's a resistable force meeting an immovable object.  If people
really, absolutely have to have non-authenticated access, then we
can't have the conference at Chalmers -- so they'll have to put up
with it.

Cheers,
mwh
(who didn't/doesn't understand people's vehemence on this point)

-- 
  And not only in the sense that they imagine heretics where these
  do not exist, but also that inquistors repress the heretical
  putrefaction so vehemently that many are driven to share in it,
  in their hatred of the judges.  -- The Name Of The Rose, Umberto Eco
From lists at andreas-jung.com  Sun Apr  3 16:56:53 2005
From: lists at andreas-jung.com (Andreas Jung)
Date: Sun Apr  3 16:56:58 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Track Zope/Plone
Message-ID: <7773112F79A6E3EC4465528A@[192.168.0.20]>

Hi,

just for curiosity: why is the Zope track named "Zope/Plone"? If you put a 
dedicated
Zope product into the title of the track then you should also add all other 
comparable
CMS systems like CPS und Silva or just name it "Zope" or make a dedicated 
Plone track but
pointing out "Plone" in the title is somewhat unfair :-)

Andreas
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From jacob at strakt.com  Sun Apr  3 18:49:54 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Sun Apr  3 18:50:16 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
In-Reply-To: <424EA481.5030804@chalmers.se>
References: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>
	<200504021531.18719.jacob@strakt.com>
	<424EA481.5030804@chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <200504031849.55086.jacob@strakt.com>

l?rdag 02 april 2005 15.56 skrev Jean-Marc Orliaguet:
> >Ahh, this must have been done without me noticing. How do I publish
> > something? I can't find a box to click in that says "Publish".
>
> Hi, it's the 'submit' button
>
> http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/content.html
>
> just create something in a workspace and  publish it in one of the
> sections. That's the "normal" workflow.

Well, we abandoned this workflow months ago, since it made it very difficult 
for us to collaborate on things. We couldn't find a way that allowed 
everybody involved to edit the same things, and we couldn't figure out how to 
make common workspaces. Also, it was difficult to see how the different 
pieces of work would fit together while you were working on them.

For these reasons, we have built everything "in place". And now there does not 
seem to be a procedure for making the different parts marked as "published".

This seems to be a hole in the workflow to me, if you can paint yourself into 
a corner like this. You may also consider if the workflow is adapted to the 
way people actually want to work. It didn't fit the mental model that Laura 
and I had when we were doing the job.

Jacob
From jmo at chalmers.se  Sun Apr  3 19:04:38 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Sun Apr  3 19:05:00 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
In-Reply-To: <200504031849.55086.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>	<200504021531.18719.jacob@strakt.com>	<424EA481.5030804@chalmers.se>
	<200504031849.55086.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42502226.2070107@chalmers.se>

Jacob Hallen wrote:

>l?rdag 02 april 2005 15.56 skrev Jean-Marc Orliaguet:
>  
>
>>>Ahh, this must have been done without me noticing. How do I publish
>>>something? I can't find a box to click in that says "Publish".
>>>      
>>>
>>Hi, it's the 'submit' button
>>
>>http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/content.html
>>
>>just create something in a workspace and  publish it in one of the
>>sections. That's the "normal" workflow.
>>    
>>
>
>Well, we abandoned this workflow months ago, since it made it very difficult 
>for us to collaborate on things. We couldn't find a way that allowed 
>everybody involved to edit the same things, and we couldn't figure out how to 
>make common workspaces. Also, it was difficult to see how the different 
>pieces of work would fit together while you were working on them.
>
>For these reasons, we have built everything "in place". And now there does not 
>seem to be a procedure for making the different parts marked as "published".
>
>This seems to be a hole in the workflow to me, if you can paint yourself into 
>a corner like this. You may also consider if the workflow is adapted to the 
>way people actually want to work. It didn't fit the mental model that Laura 
>and I had when we were doing the job.
>
>Jacob
>  
>
Well then you are on your own ...

/JM 

From jmo at chalmers.se  Sun Apr  3 23:14:39 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Sun Apr  3 23:15:02 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
In-Reply-To: <200504031849.55086.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504012329.38206.jacob@strakt.com>	<200504021531.18719.jacob@strakt.com>	<424EA481.5030804@chalmers.se>
	<200504031849.55086.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42505CBF.7080008@chalmers.se>

Jacob Hallen wrote:

>l?rdag 02 april 2005 15.56 skrev Jean-Marc Orliaguet:
>  
>
>>>Ahh, this must have been done without me noticing. How do I publish
>>>something? I can't find a box to click in that says "Publish".
>>>      
>>>
>>Hi, it's the 'submit' button
>>
>>http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/content.html
>>
>>just create something in a workspace and  publish it in one of the
>>sections. That's the "normal" workflow.
>>    
>>
>
>Well, we abandoned this workflow months ago, since it made it very difficult 
>for us to collaborate on things. We couldn't find a way that allowed 
>everybody involved to edit the same things, and we couldn't figure out how to 
>make common workspaces. Also, it was difficult to see how the different 
>pieces of work would fit together while you were working on them.
>
>  
>
Hi,
well, we have published and currently update approx 800 documents for
the Chalmers website this way, and our webmasters have figured out how
to use the workflow to collaborate on the same documents ...

>For these reasons, we have built everything "in place". And now there does not 
>seem to be a procedure for making the different parts marked as "published".
>
>  
>
indeed,  a section is not meant to be published, it is a part of the
site's tree structure.

>This seems to be a hole in the workflow to me, if you can paint yourself into 
>a corner like this. You may also consider if the workflow is adapted to the 
>way people actually want to work. It didn't fit the mental model that Laura 
>and I had when we were doing the job.
>
>  
>
>Jacob
>
>  
>

this type of workflow is OK when every user is a site manager (like you
and Laura and everyone else at Strakt), when every one is sitting in the
same room and decide not to edit the same documents at the same time,
and when there is only one type of document on the site.

unfortunately this won't work in a community website with 100 presenters
uploading there presentations, but it seems that the EP conference is
only managed by Strakt AB so it might not be a problem after all...

/JM



From erny at sicem.biz  Mon Apr  4 00:17:30 2005
From: erny at sicem.biz (Ernesto Revilla)
Date: Mon Apr  4 10:44:40 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Conference registration product
Message-ID: <42506B7A.7050407@sicem.biz>

Hello,
is there a Plone or Zope product for conference assistant registration?
I couldn't find one.

What did EuroPython used last year?

Best regards,

Erny
Spain



---
avast! Antivirus: Saliente mensaje limpio.
Base de datos de Virus (VPS): 0513-2, 01/04/2005
Comprobado en: 04/04/2005 0:17:33
avast! tiene los derechos reservados (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com



From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Mon Apr  4 10:03:34 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Mon Apr  4 10:45:29 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Track Zope/Plone
In-Reply-To: <7773112F79A6E3EC4465528A@[192.168.0.20]>
References: <7773112F79A6E3EC4465528A@[192.168.0.20]>
Message-ID: <4250F4D6.8080205@simplistix.co.uk>

Andreas Jung wrote:

> just for curiosity: why is the Zope track named "Zope/Plone"? If you put 
> a dedicated
> Zope product into the title of the track then you should also add all 
> other comparable
> CMS systems like CPS und Silva or just name it "Zope" or make a 
> dedicated Plone track but
> pointing out "Plone" in the title is somewhat unfair :-)

I'd certainly second that...

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Apr  4 11:03:19 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Mon Apr  4 11:03:39 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Track Zope/Plone
In-Reply-To: <4250F4D6.8080205@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <7773112F79A6E3EC4465528A@[192.168.0.20]>
	<4250F4D6.8080205@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <425102D7.6080608@ita.chalmers.se>

Chris Withers wrote:
> Andreas Jung wrote:
> 
>> just for curiosity: why is the Zope track named "Zope/Plone"? If you 
>> put a dedicated
>> Zope product into the title of the track then you should also add all 
>> other comparable
>> CMS systems like CPS und Silva or just name it "Zope" or make a 
>> dedicated Plone track but
>> pointing out "Plone" in the title is somewhat unfair :-)
> 
> 
> I'd certainly second that...
> 
> Chris
> 

And me.

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Apr  4 12:21:45 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Mon Apr  4 12:22:07 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
In-Reply-To: <007201c53830$7c064ae0$1b00a8c0@simkin>
References: <think001_424f28c08a42c@webmail.thinkware.se>
	<007201c53830$7c064ae0$1b00a8c0@simkin>
Message-ID: <200504041221.45536.jacob@strakt.com>

s?ndag 03 april 2005 11.35 skrev tom:
> >I think this is a major improvement from last year! I'd like to thank and
> >congratulate all who contributed.
>
> Yup, but it would be great if links were provided to the older sites (or
> the front pages)... just for the history of europython

You are welcome to get a login so you can fix it.

Jacob
From jmo at chalmers.se  Mon Apr  4 13:10:12 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Mon Apr  4 13:10:34 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website things
In-Reply-To: <007201c53830$7c064ae0$1b00a8c0@simkin>
References: <think001_424f28c08a42c@webmail.thinkware.se>
	<007201c53830$7c064ae0$1b00a8c0@simkin>
Message-ID: <42512094.2000905@chalmers.se>

tom wrote:

>> I think this is a major improvement from last year! I'd like to thank
>> and congratulate all who contributed.
>
>
> Yup, but it would be great if links were provided to the older sites
> (or the front pages)... just for the history of europython
>
>

Hi Tom!

Just join the site!

the address is http://www.europython.org/join_form

I'll help you with the rest ...

/JM


From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Apr  4 14:46:52 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Mon Apr  4 14:47:14 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Track Zope/Plone
In-Reply-To: <425102D7.6080608@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <7773112F79A6E3EC4465528A@[192.168.0.20]>	<4250F4D6.8080205@simplistix.co.uk>
	<425102D7.6080608@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4251373C.7060701@ita.chalmers.se>

>>> pointing out "Plone" in the title is somewhat unfair :-)

hi, I was searching around the site to correct the document, and I found 
it, however, I have no editing rights to it.

Could this be rectified, please? I could then correct the zope/plone name.

Thanks,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Apr  4 14:58:13 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Mon Apr  4 14:58:17 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Track Zope/Plone
In-Reply-To: <4251373C.7060701@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <7773112F79A6E3EC4465528A@[192.168.0.20]>
	<425102D7.6080608@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4251373C.7060701@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <200504041458.13253.jacob@strakt.com>

On m?ndag 04 april 2005 14:46, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> >>> pointing out "Plone" in the title is somewhat unfair :-)
>
> hi, I was searching around the site to correct the document, and I found
> it, however, I have no editing rights to it.
>
> Could this be rectified, please? I could then correct the zope/plone name.

Done.

Jacob
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Apr  4 15:15:23 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Mon Apr  4 15:15:44 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Track Zope/Plone
In-Reply-To: <200504041458.13253.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <7773112F79A6E3EC4465528A@[192.168.0.20]>
	<425102D7.6080608@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4251373C.7060701@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200504041458.13253.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42513DEB.8080805@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
>>>>>pointing out "Plone" in the title is somewhat unfair :-)
>>Could this be rectified, please? I could then correct the zope/plone name.
> 
> 
> Done.
> 
> Jacob

Thanks, I think I did this on the EPC site. Could this be corrected on 
the talk registrations site as weel?

Change "Zope/Plone" to "Zope and Zope Related"

URL: http://pbf.strakt.com:8080/presentation2.chtml?conference=688&track=694

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From tv at inoi.fi  Mon Apr  4 15:42:14 2005
From: tv at inoi.fi (Tommi Virtanen)
Date: Mon Apr  4 15:44:14 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website talk modify script is buggy if no long
	description exists
Message-ID: <42514436.5020506@inoi.fi>

Hi. I created a talk proposal and tried to edit it. Attached is a
traceback. Seems that if one enters an empty long description, further
attempts to modify the talk information fail.

-- 
Inoi Ay, PL 112, FIN-20521 Turku, Finland
http://www.inoi.fi/
Mobile +358 40 762 5656
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From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Apr  4 19:13:56 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Mon Apr  4 19:13:58 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website talk modify script is buggy if no long
	description exists
In-Reply-To: <42514436.5020506@inoi.fi>
References: <42514436.5020506@inoi.fi>
Message-ID: <200504041913.56681.jacob@strakt.com>

On m?ndag 04 april 2005 15:42, Tommi Virtanen wrote:
> Hi. I created a talk proposal and tried to edit it. Attached is a
> traceback. Seems that if one enters an empty long description, further
> attempts to modify the talk information fail.

I think I have it fixed now. Thanks for notifying me.

Jacob Hall?n
From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Apr  4 19:23:12 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Mon Apr  4 19:23:14 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] List of things that need doing
Message-ID: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>

Hi!

I have tried to make an exhaustive list of things that need doing for 
Europython. I'm sure I haven't gotten everything in it though I think it is 
fairly complete.

Please help me making it as complete as possible.

As I'm sure you can see, this is by far too much work for one person, so 
please pick up tasks from the list and make them your responsibility.

This list, and who does what will be the main focus of the meeting tomorrow.

Jacob
_________________________________________________________
T-shirts
- Get offers for making T-shirts
- We need a T-shirt design in printable format
- T-shirt design should be submitted early to printers for mastering
- T-shirts need to be ordered
- T-shirts have to be picked up, stored and hauled to the venue
- T-shirts need to be distributed to attendees

Programme
* Reportlab has a module for generating programmes. It takes data from
a MySQL database.
- Update static content
- Make script that exports data from CAPSconference to the MySQL database
- Create and add more maps for where conference is, where meals are,
  where banquet is. (See item below)
 
Schedule
- Create a nice web template to fill in with schedule content
- Make scheduling based on collision reduction and popularity

Badges and tickets
- The ticket page from last year needs some re-designing, since
  we are adding breakfast tickets
- The printing program needs modification to receive data from
  CAPSconference instead of from a pickle
- The printing program should be able to print a single ticket,
  in order to handle on-site registration
- Tickets have to be printed
- Tickets, scedule and promotional materials need bundling and sorting

Badge holders
- We are short some badge holders. Last year I bought them from Svenska
  M?ssan. This should be possible this year as well. I guess we need about
  200 badge holders more.

Internet access
- Internet access last year was inadequate. We would like to plug in
  a couple more access points, so that there is coverage in all the
  lecture halls, and in the cafeteria. This needs to be negotiated with
  Chalmers N?tgrupp.
- We also need to get accounts created for all attendees, including
  accounts for on-site registrants. 

Reception
- Layout
- Staff recruiting
- Staff scheduling
- Staff training

Bulletin board
- We need a proper bulletin board. We did not have one last year
- Preparing of board
- Large scale schedule
- Supplies for people to write notices on 

Sponsors
- Sending out letters inviting sponsors
- Receiving banner ads
- Receiving printed materials
- Handling sponsors on-site
  - Booth space
  - Posting of materials

Supplies
- Printer
- Networking equipment
- Office supplies

Keynote speaker
- Recruiting
- Making agreement
- Making sure travel arrangements work
- Encouraging correspondence

Arrangements with Chalmers Conference service
- Breakfasts
- Lunches
- Pub
- Keynote venue

Arrangements with Chalmers Lokalservice
- Lecture halls
- Lockable space

Arrangements with Chalmers A/V service
- Video projectors
- Use of PA in lecture halls, if possible

Arrangements with janitor service
- Make sure lights are on in the hallway. Last year
  they were on timers.

Sprints and sprint space
- Promote sprints
- Arrange sprint space

Banquet
- Make agreement
- Make sure menu works for all

SGS Veckobost?der
- Continous interaction, telling them registration status

Budget
- Make one
- Check venue rental cost

Website
- Upload of talks to website
- Registration
  - Make accomodation work
  - Fix T-shirt price
  - Add breakfast purchase
  - Create status page
  - Create page for changing info
  - Create page for deferred payment, with multiple payment codes
  - Make it spit out payment numbers
  - Integrate with card payment
  - Make sure invoices work
- Make email gateway work
- Make interface for registering interest in talks
- Add maps (See below)
- Update info as it comes in

PR
- Updates to comp.lang.python
- Mails to magazines and journals
- Mails to Zope mailing lists

Attendee interaction
- Deal with people's questions and problems

Materials
- Make maps showing where different things take place

Signage
- Make signs showing the way to conference, breakfast, lunch, keynote
  venue, lecture halls

Registration tracking
- Track payments

Hardware for talks
- Borrow 4 laptops
- Make sure they stay put
- Make sure they have necessary software
- Make sure they have network access
- Make sure they have all presentations dowloaded
- Test them with Video projectors
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Apr  4 19:46:40 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Mon Apr  4 19:46:59 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] List of things that need doing
In-Reply-To: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42517D80.7040004@ita.chalmers.se>

Hello,

I send some observations by mail instead of wainting until tomorrow to 
discuss them. IRC meetings tend to be qquite chaotic in spite of 
everyones efforts to make them efficient, so I figured we can start the 
discussion a priori.

Here goes:

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> 
> Internet access
> - Internet access last year was inadequate. We would like to plug in
>   a couple more access points, so that there is coverage in all the
>   lecture halls, and in the cafeteria. This needs to be negotiated with
>   Chalmers N?tgrupp.

I need lots of details of what went wrong, in what rooms coverage was 
not adequate, and as much info as possible of this. There is very very 
little space for improvement for the coverage, and I am bit uncertain as 
to how much of a problem there actually were: I've heard from people 
that were suprised at how smooth and working it was to rumours of people 
not being happy with it. In short I need to have concrete descriptions 
of what was unsatisfactiry in order to be able to negotiate.

For instance, the cafeteria is definitely hard to get internet access to 
because it is a) placed in an area not covered by radio and b) there are 
no possiblities of doing cabled connection.

I also would like to point out that bringing one's own equipment and 
expecting it to work will probably fail this year, due to the kind of 
security framework used in the network access area. You are welcome to 
try and see if it works, but the available connections with the wall 
mounted ethernet sockets in the Arkitekture Light Garden are not 
designed to nor supposed to work with hubs and switches - only with 
single computers.

I will bring it up with the network group and see what we can expect, 
but do not expect too much from the free internet access we have.

I have allready asked about better coverage in some of the lecture 
halls, and depending on equipment avilability, we *may* get better 
coverage in some areas. This is a possibility, not a promise.

 > - We also need to get accounts created for all attendees, including
 >   accounts for on-site registrants.
 >

did this work allright last year? (all accounts where prefabricated by 
the network group). If not, what needs to be improved?

/dario - more questions to come later.
-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From js at aixtraware.de  Mon Apr  4 20:16:12 2005
From: js at aixtraware.de (Joachim Schmitz)
Date: Mon Apr  4 20:16:13 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] List of things that need doing
In-Reply-To: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <4251846C.7010009@aixtraware.de>

Hi Jacob,

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I have tried to make an exhaustive list of things that need doing for 
> Europython. I'm sure I haven't gotten everything in it though I think it is 
> fairly complete.
> 
> Please help me making it as complete as possible.

...
> Website
> - Upload of talks to website
> - Registration
>   - Make accomodation work
>   - Fix T-shirt price
>   - Add breakfast purchase
>   - Create status page
>   - Create page for changing info
>   - Create page for deferred payment, with multiple payment codes
>   - Make it spit out payment numbers
>   - Integrate with card payment

do you still want the worldpay service for this ?

I sent you several emails in privat mail but got no response.

-- 
Mit freundlichen Gr??en                                Joachim Schmitz
......................................................................
AixtraWare eK ..Joachim Schmitz ..www.aixtraware.de ..t: +49-2464-8851
H?sgenstr. 33a .....d-52457 Aldenhoven .............f: +49-2464-905163
From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Apr  4 20:25:35 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Mon Apr  4 20:25:38 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] List of things that need doing
In-Reply-To: <42517D80.7040004@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>
	<42517D80.7040004@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <200504042025.35287.jacob@strakt.com>

On m?ndag 04 april 2005 19:46, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I send some observations by mail instead of wainting until tomorrow to
> discuss them. IRC meetings tend to be qquite chaotic in spite of
> everyones efforts to make them efficient, so I figured we can start the
> discussion a priori.
>
> Here goes:
>
> Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> > Internet access
> > - Internet access last year was inadequate. We would like to plug in
> >   a couple more access points, so that there is coverage in all the
> >   lecture halls, and in the cafeteria. This needs to be negotiated with
> >   Chalmers N?tgrupp.
>
> I need lots of details of what went wrong, in what rooms coverage was
> not adequate, and as much info as possible of this. There is very very
> little space for improvement for the coverage, and I am bit uncertain as
> to how much of a problem there actually were: I've heard from people
> that were suprised at how smooth and working it was to rumours of people
> not being happy with it. In short I need to have concrete descriptions
> of what was unsatisfactiry in order to be able to negotiate.
>
> For instance, the cafeteria is definitely hard to get internet access to
> because it is a) placed in an area not covered by radio and b) there are
> no possiblities of doing cabled connection.
>
> I also would like to point out that bringing one's own equipment and
> expecting it to work will probably fail this year, due to the kind of
> security framework used in the network access area. You are welcome to
> try and see if it works, but the available connections with the wall
> mounted ethernet sockets in the Arkitekture Light Garden are not
> designed to nor supposed to work with hubs and switches - only with
> single computers.
>
> I will bring it up with the network group and see what we can expect,
> but do not expect too much from the free internet access we have.
>
> I have allready asked about better coverage in some of the lecture
> halls, and depending on equipment avilability, we *may* get better
> coverage in some areas. This is a possibility, not a promise.

Coverage was especially bad in VR, though I think there were some complaints 
about parts of VM as well. We may expect coverage to be bad in both VA and 
VB, since they are further away from the access point, with several walls in 
between.

If there is a switch close to the existing access point, it would be rather 
simple to set up a couple of temporary extra access points. We can buy 2 
access points and 2 100-meter ethernet cables, so we can distribute the 
access out to the places where it is most needed.

Also, there were quite a few people who complained about there being no place 
to go to if you needed wired access. This is probably going to be less of a 
problem this year, but after seeing that there were still qute a few people 
who used wired access at Pycon, I can see that many people are still 
dependent on wired connections.

In any case, we should have a few wireless cards avalable for people to borrow 
this year. We have some left from last year, and we can buy a few new ones.

>  > - We also need to get accounts created for all attendees, including
>  >   accounts for on-site registrants.
>
> did this work allright last year? (all accounts where prefabricated by
> the network group). If not, what needs to be improved?

From my perspective, it worked excellently. The one thing we need to make sure 
is that we have a surplus of accounts, for the people who manage to lose 
theirs and the ones who register on-site. We should print separate slips for 
these before the conference, so that we have them ready when they are needed. 
Last year we had to cannibalise the accounts of people who never showed up.
It worked, but we ran the risk of people showing up late and having their 
accounts gone.

There were only a few people who complained about having authenticated login 
to access the network. I think we can just ignore those complaints, since I 
think it is unreasonable to expect an unauthenticated service.

Jacob
From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Apr  4 20:30:41 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Mon Apr  4 20:30:45 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] List of things that need doing
In-Reply-To: <4251846C.7010009@aixtraware.de>
References: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4251846C.7010009@aixtraware.de>
Message-ID: <200504042030.41447.jacob@strakt.com>

Hi Joachim,

I'm sorry that I haven't replied, but I have been too busy getting the bits 
together for the opening of the Europython website.

Yes, I'm very interested in getting the Worldpay service integrated, and it is 
now the next big thing on my agenda. If you have time tomorrow, I can give 
you an introduction to how things work with the new registration procedure, 
and give you access to the account where the application resides.

Jacob


On m?ndag 04 april 2005 20:16, Joachim Schmitz wrote:
> Hi Jacob,
>
> Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I have tried to make an exhaustive list of things that need doing for
> > Europython. I'm sure I haven't gotten everything in it though I think it
> > is fairly complete.
> >
> > Please help me making it as complete as possible.
>
> ...
>
> > Website
> > - Upload of talks to website
> > - Registration
> >   - Make accomodation work
> >   - Fix T-shirt price
> >   - Add breakfast purchase
> >   - Create status page
> >   - Create page for changing info
> >   - Create page for deferred payment, with multiple payment codes
> >   - Make it spit out payment numbers
> >   - Integrate with card payment
>
> do you still want the worldpay service for this ?
>
> I sent you several emails in privat mail but got no response.
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Apr  4 23:18:01 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Mon Apr  4 23:18:23 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] List of things that need doing
In-Reply-To: <200504042025.35287.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>	<42517D80.7040004@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200504042025.35287.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <4251AF09.6080108@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> Coverage was especially bad in VR, though I think there were some complaints 
> about parts of VM as well. We may expect coverage to be bad in both VA and 
> VB, since they are further away from the access point, with several walls in 
> between.

Right, this is expeced and fits the current level of service. There is 
no warranty that Radio may reach down there due to the positioning of 
the access points. There is cable based net access in two of the rooms 
but they are for the speakers, not the audience. There is a planned 
increase in coverage to the upper floors as well, and this MAY affect us 
positively, if it gets done in time for the conference.

And like I said, we may be able to borrow an extra acess point by the 
time of the conference that we may be able to use. Maybe.

I am not sure how this may increase the coverage in the rooms.

I'll ask about possible options and report back.

> If there is a switch close to the existing access point, it would be rather 
> simple to set up a couple of temporary extra access points. We can buy 2 
> access points and 2 100-meter ethernet cables, so we can distribute the 
> access out to the places where it is most needed.

I am sorry to sound grumpy, but this now constitutes about the Fifth 
time I have said that this is a) not supported, and b) will not likely 
work. Everything there is NOMAD based (NOMAD is the system we use for 
the publicly available wireless and cabled network infrastructure). The 
NOMAD network is not designed, on purpose, to allow using NAT routers 
and other devices such as hubs or switches. By the dates the conference 
is being held, this policy is being more enforced than last year 
(because of technical upgrades to the service).

It will not work to bring equipment to set up temporary access points. 
The infrastructure is designed on purpose to prevent the kind of 
temporary solution you suggest above.

You are welcome to try, it should not cause any too serious network 
trouble for the rest of the NOMAD network (if it does and it is serious, 
I'll probably get a nasty call to unplug the offending equipment so the 
network can be brought back up).

> Also, there were quite a few people who complained about there being no place 
> to go to if you needed wired access. This is probably going to be less of a 
> problem this year, but after seeing that there were still qute a few people 
> who used wired access at Pycon, I can see that many people are still 
> dependent on wired connections.

There are several NOMAD ethernet wall sockets availabel in the 
Arktitekture Light Garden (the big area to the right of the entrance).

They will lileky be spread around the walls buy we are welcome to use 
them if we need them.

> In any case, we should have a few wireless cards avalable for people to borrow 
> this year. We have some left from last year, and we can buy a few new ones.

oki.

>> > - We also need to get accounts created for all attendees, including
>> >   accounts for on-site registrants.
>>
>>did this work allright last year? (all accounts where prefabricated by
>>the network group). If not, what needs to be improved?
> 
> 
> From my perspective, it worked excellently. The one thing we need to make sure 
> is that we have a surplus of accounts, for the people who manage to lose 
> theirs and the ones who register on-site. We should print separate slips for 
> these before the conference, so that we have them ready when they are needed. 
> Last year we had to cannibalise the accounts of people who never showed up.
> It worked, but we ran the risk of people showing up late and having their 
> accounts gone.

Right, I need an estimate about how many people are attendind some 2-3 
weeks in advance, and I will add a suitable extra amount of "emergency" 
accounts (20-30 should do it, right?).

> There were only a few people who complained about having authenticated login 
> to access the network. I think we can just ignore those complaints, since I 
> think it is unreasonable to expect an unauthenticated service.

Well, since there is no alternative to authenticated net access, they 
are welcome to complain all they want, but all we can do is ignore them, 
unfortunately.

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Apr  5 08:45:21 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Apr  5 08:45:44 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] List of things that need doing
In-Reply-To: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42523401.9030103@ita.chalmers.se>

>  
> Schedule
> - Create a nice web template to fill in with schedule content
> - Make scheduling based on collision reduction and popularity
> 

I attach a schedule in bad but readable html that we used for an oracle 
conference a few years back.

It needs to be adpated to the graphic design of EPC and customised 
everything but I send it as a suggestion/inspiration of how a schedule 
might look like. It worked quite well for us, and gave a nice overview 
of the tracks, on a per day basis.

I could try and adapt it to being a real template but I do not know how 
the data is stored nor if we are using a scheduling system or if we are 
using pencil and paper to do the scheduling. But if I get more info I 
can work with Jean-Marc and produce something for the website that is 
suitable for printing too.

We schedueled our conference manually, and it worked quite well after I 
devfeloped a system of doing this. The conference was about the same 
sized as EPC, with some common sessions and the separate sessions for 
each of the four tracks.

Hope this helps as a starting point.

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
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From jmo at chalmers.se  Tue Apr  5 09:34:51 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Tue Apr  5 09:35:14 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] List of things that need doing
In-Reply-To: <42523401.9030103@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>
	<42523401.9030103@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <42523F9B.8030302@chalmers.se>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:

>>  
>> Schedule
>> - Create a nice web template to fill in with schedule content
>> - Make scheduling based on collision reduction and popularity
>>
>
> I attach a schedule in bad but readable html that we used for an
> oracle conference a few years back.
>
> It needs to be adpated to the graphic design of EPC and customised
> everything but I send it as a suggestion/inspiration of how a schedule
> might look like. It worked quite well for us, and gave a nice overview
> of the tracks, on a per day basis.
>
> I could try and adapt it to being a real template but I do not know
> how the data is stored nor if we are using a scheduling system or if
> we are using pencil and paper to do the scheduling. But if I get more
> info I can work with Jean-Marc and produce something for the website
> that is suitable for printing too.
>
> We schedueled our conference manually, and it worked quite well after
> I devfeloped a system of doing this. The conference was about the same
> sized as EPC, with some common sessions and the separate sessions for
> each of the four tracks.
>
> Hope this helps as a starting point.


Hi!

it's good actually. But there's just one thing I'd like to know:

- what part is Strakt doing in relation to conference booking, schedule?
I guess that the information about schedules will be available once
track chairs have selected the talks and this is done in the Strakt
conference booking application, right? The application should then be
able to display the tracks?

- what part should be implemented in CPS3? payment, printing programmes,
etc... some of the code may be reused from last years site, by the way.

just asking :-)

/JM
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Apr  5 10:10:54 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Apr  5 10:11:17 2005
Subject: Wireless Access in the conference area (was Re: [EuroPython] List
	of things that need doing)
In-Reply-To: <4251AF09.6080108@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>	<42517D80.7040004@ita.chalmers.se>	<200504042025.35287.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4251AF09.6080108@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4252480E.8050709@ita.chalmers.se>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> And like I said, we may be able to borrow an extra acess point by the 
> time of the conference that we may be able to use. Maybe.
> 
> I am not sure how this may increase the coverage in the rooms.

I just had a chat with on of the staff from the group that manages the 
NOMAD network. I explained our need of having better network coverage 
and we thought about possible ways to get around this.

He explained that unknown wireless equipment that is used by individuals 
is a major source of problems with the NOMAD network throughout 
Chalmers, so the are not enthuiastic about bring in our own wireless 
equipment.

BUT, they were somewhat sympathetic about our needs, so we cam up with a 
solution that may work.

If we provide them with the proper equipment (read: the same brand of 
wireless access points that are currently used by the NOMAD 
infrastructure), they are willing to help us configure them and help us 
connecct them to some of the cabled NOMAD ethernet sockets.

This way we may provide wireless access both in the cafe and in the 
rooms that have inadequate coverage.

The down side of this is that the access points are expensive:

they are Cisco Aironet 1100 AccessPoints, and the best price I can get 
tem for is about 3150 kronor + moms each, and we probabably want a 
power-over-ethernet box for each for about 315 kronor + moms (makes it 
easier to power the ap's). In total  aprximaltely 3465 kronor + moms each.

This way we have much more freedom to provide access to places 
wherethere is no coverage.

So what do you say, do we have budget for 2-3 of those AccessPoints?

/dario

PS: Yes, they have to be Cisco Aironets 1100 or 1200 (but 1200 is more 
expensive).

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From mwh at python.net  Tue Apr  5 13:19:33 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr  5 13:19:35 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] List of things that need doing
In-Reply-To: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com> (
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jacob_Hall=E9n's_message_of?= "Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:23:12
	+0200")
References: <200504041923.12586.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <2my8bxa2t6.fsf@starship.python.net>

Jacob Hall?n <jacob@strakt.com> writes:

> Hi!
>
> I have tried to make an exhaustive list of things that need doing for 
> Europython. I'm sure I haven't gotten everything in it though I think it is 
> fairly complete.
>
> Please help me making it as complete as possible.
>
> As I'm sure you can see, this is by far too much work for one person, so 
> please pick up tasks from the list and make them your responsibility.
>
> This list, and who does what will be the main focus of the meeting tomorrow.
>
> Jacob
> _________________________________________________________
> T-shirts
> - Get offers for making T-shirts
> - We need a T-shirt design in printable format
> - T-shirt design should be submitted early to printers for mastering
> - T-shirts need to be ordered
> - T-shirts have to be picked up, stored and hauled to the venue
> - T-shirts need to be distributed to attendees

Are, in the grand scheme of things, T-shirts really worth the hassle?

> Programme
> * Reportlab has a module for generating programmes. It takes data from
> a MySQL database.
> - Update static content
> - Make script that exports data from CAPSconference to the MySQL database
> - Create and add more maps for where conference is, where meals are,
>   where banquet is. (See item below)

Don't want to sound pushy, but didn't you do this last year?  Given
that and that you know probably understand CAPSconference better than
most it would probably take you less time than anyone else...

> Schedule
> - Create a nice web template to fill in with schedule content

I did this last year, but don't know how reusable it will be, owing to
not really knowing how this year's site works...

> - Make scheduling based on collision reduction and popularity

Sounds, er, fun...

> Badges and tickets
> - The ticket page from last year needs some re-designing, since
>   we are adding breakfast tickets
> - The printing program needs modification to receive data from
>   CAPSconference instead of from a pickle
> - The printing program should be able to print a single ticket,
>   in order to handle on-site registration
> - Tickets have to be printed
> - Tickets, scedule and promotional materials need bundling and sorting

Again, I think you did this didn't you?


> Internet access
> - Internet access last year was inadequate.

I didn't really think so, but discussion is proceeding apace, it
seems...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  All programs evolve until they can send email.      -- Richard Letts
  Except Microsoft Exchange.                                    -- Art
               -- http://home.xnet.com/~raven/Sysadmin/ASR.Quotes.html
From tobias at netintact.se  Tue Apr  5 08:56:25 2005
From: tobias at netintact.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tobias_Rundstr=F6m?=)
Date: Tue Apr  5 13:25:37 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Netintact sponsorship of EuroPython.
Message-ID: <42523699.4060407@netintact.se>

Hello.


We have been trying to get information from you about a sponsorship for 
europython2005. I would like to have some answers soon since we want to 
start push for this to our customers.

What we want to do is to have access to a room for 2 hours during the 
conferance and have our name on the website/material. I would also like 
options of how we can sell tickets to our customers.

I also have at least 4 people from Netintact that would like to join for 
the conferance.

How do we proceed?

-- Tobias

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From sjors at amaze.nl  Tue Apr  5 13:50:28 2005
From: sjors at amaze.nl (Sjors Robroek)
Date: Tue Apr  5 13:50:36 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Launch of website
In-Reply-To: <20050401083359.GG28481@amaze.nl>
References: <200503311714.40076.jacob@strakt.com>
	<20050331153508.GE28481@amaze.nl> <200503311751.15945.jacob@strakt.com>
	<1112341943.8250.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20050401083359.GG28481@amaze.nl>
Message-ID: <1112701828.5895.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>


> I think europython used to have a piece of secure webspace (https) on
> https://secure.zope.nl/europy -- please let me know if this is/will be
> required for the new site (and where it should map to)
> 
> Also, please check if the instance's root is still accessible (I know
> very little about your current setup, else I'd check myself)
> 
> Cheers
> 
>         Ivo
> 

The Europython root for the live instance has been made available at
https://secure.zope.nl/europython . Could you please check if everything
at this URL is working correctly?

Greetings,
-- 
Sjors Robroek

Amaze
Korte Leidsedwarsstraat 12
1017 RC Amsterdam
Tel:    +31-20-4688336
Fax:    +31-20-4688337
Web:    http://www.amaze.nl
Email:  sjors@amaze.nl

From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Apr  4 18:37:01 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Tue Apr  5 13:55:32 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] List of submitted talks
Message-ID: <200504041837.01522.jacob@strakt.com>

I'm sure you are all curious about the incoming talk submissions.

Here is a page that simply lsts all of them:

http://pbf.strakt.com:8080/list.chtml

Jacob
From jmo at chalmers.se  Tue Apr  5 14:26:11 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Tue Apr  5 14:26:34 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Launch of website
In-Reply-To: <1112701828.5895.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200503311714.40076.jacob@strakt.com>	
	<20050331153508.GE28481@amaze.nl>
	<200503311751.15945.jacob@strakt.com>	
	<1112341943.8250.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	
	<20050401083359.GG28481@amaze.nl>
	<1112701828.5895.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <425283E3.6080202@chalmers.se>

Sjors Robroek wrote:

>>I think europython used to have a piece of secure webspace (https) on
>>https://secure.zope.nl/europy -- please let me know if this is/will be
>>required for the new site (and where it should map to)
>>
>>Also, please check if the instance's root is still accessible (I know
>>very little about your current setup, else I'd check myself)
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>        Ivo
>>
>>    
>>
>
>The Europython root for the live instance has been made available at
>https://secure.zope.nl/europython . Could you please check if everything
>at this URL is working correctly?
>
>Greetings,
>  
>

Hi!

there seems to be a problem in the rewrite form:

see:
https://secure.zope.nl/europython/?theme=default


/JM

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Apr  5 14:34:24 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Apr  5 14:34:47 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Netintact sponsorship of EuroPython.
In-Reply-To: <42523699.4060407@netintact.se>
References: <42523699.4060407@netintact.se>
Message-ID: <425285D0.60000@ita.chalmers.se>

Tobias Rundstr?m wrote:
> Hello.
> 
> 
> We have been trying to get information from you about a sponsorship for 
> europython2005. I would like to have some answers soon since we want to 
> start push for this to our customers.
> 
> What we want to do is to have access to a room for 2 hours during the 
> conferance and have our name on the website/material. I would also like 
> options of how we can sell tickets to our customers.
> 
> I also have at least 4 people from Netintact that would like to join for 
> the conferance.
> 
> How do we proceed?
> 
> -- Tobias

Hello,

first of all, apologies for net getting back to you previously. We are 
in the process of finalising most of the details of the conference and 
have been busy with this and "In Real Life"-work, and we just missed to 
respond properly.

We are of course delighted to have you as sponsors of EuroPython 2005, 
however we have not yet decide on what levels of Sponsorship we are 
going to offer nor what the pricing will be; this whould be decided at 
the latest by the end of this week, and I will get back to you as soon 
as it happens.

Nevertheless, to help with preparations, we can provide information on 
what *is* available.

You mention that you need a room. Do you need a separate room to use for 
  customer meetings or do you mean that you intened to hold a 
talsk/session? If the former, what days do you wish to have acess to it?

I must mention that we are not certain we may be able to aquire a 
separate room, but we will most cerntainly look in what possiblities we 
have and get back to you ASAP.

To get the name displayed in the Website and Printed Material is no 
problem. We have already a banner exposure and rotation system in place 
that you can see in action right now if you go to www.europython.org.

We offer two options:

Top banners:
-------------------

* exposure: displayed on every page, randomly rotating
* Size: 468x60
* required information:
   - a link to a site (url)
   - the name of the company
   - a short text description (for search engine, e.g. google,
     etc and for the textbased version of the site)


Online banners:
------------------------

* exposure: on 1 or several folders of the site.
* Size: 160x320
* required information:
   - a link to a site (url)
   - the name of the company
   - a short text description (see top banners)
   - the folder in the site where it should be displayed

* example: http://www.europython.org/sections/accomodation/cheap_hotels


Accepted image formats: JPEG, PNG, GIF

Please take care to keep file sizes small, index the image if possible.

Banners should be sent to jmo@ita.chalmers.se for insertion in the site.

The specifications for an advert to appear in the printed material are 
not yet set since we are working on them at the moment. When these are 
set, we will notify you.

Sending 4 people to the conference should be no problem. If you prefer, 
we are willing to discuss their participation as part of the sponsorship 
agreement.

Lastly, I am not sure I understand what you mean by selling tickets to 
your customers. Normally, interested people register themselves on the 
web-based registration system. Do you mean that you, for your customers, 
wish to provide other options for registreation that are managed by you? 
If you provide more info we can work something out.

If you have any more questions, or if you feel something is unclear you 
are welcome to contact me again, either by mail (dario@ita.chalmers.se) 
or by telephone (+46 31 772 8674).

For the remaining outstanding issues (print material, room, etc) I will 
contact you again as soon as I have more information on them.

Finally, let me once again apologise for the delay in responding, and I 
hope that you now have more info to work with.

Sincerely,

Dario Lopez-K?sten
for the Europython 2005 organising committee

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From sjors at amaze.nl  Tue Apr  5 15:06:06 2005
From: sjors at amaze.nl (Sjors Robroek)
Date: Tue Apr  5 15:06:15 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Launch of website
In-Reply-To: <425283E3.6080202@chalmers.se>
References: <200503311714.40076.jacob@strakt.com>
	<20050331153508.GE28481@amaze.nl> <200503311751.15945.jacob@strakt.com>
	<1112341943.8250.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20050401083359.GG28481@amaze.nl>
	<1112701828.5895.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<425283E3.6080202@chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <1112706366.5895.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>


> 
> there seems to be a problem in the rewrite form:
> 
> see:
> https://secure.zope.nl/europython/?theme=default
> 
> 
> /JM
> 

The rewrite rule wasn't correctly configured to use a VHM, but that's
been fixed now. The only problem that's still there is the fact that all
hrefs link to /, while they should link to /europython/. I don't know
wether this is a CPS problem or the fact that your content is all links
to an absolute root, so i think you should take a look at this.

Greetings,
-- 
Sjors Robroek

Amaze
Korte Leidsedwarsstraat 12
1017 RC Amsterdam
Tel:    +31-20-4688336
Fax:    +31-20-4688337
Web:    http://www.amaze.nl
Email:  sjors@amaze.nl

From tobias at netintact.se  Tue Apr  5 15:16:01 2005
From: tobias at netintact.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tobias_Rundstr=F6m?=)
Date: Tue Apr  5 15:16:07 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Netintact sponsorship of EuroPython.
In-Reply-To: <425285D0.60000@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42523699.4060407@netintact.se> <425285D0.60000@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <42528F91.6070909@netintact.se>

> Hello,
> 
> first of all, apologies for net getting back to you previously. We are 
> in the process of finalising most of the details of the conference and 
> have been busy with this and "In Real Life"-work, and we just missed to 
> respond properly.

Thank you for your response.

> We are of course delighted to have you as sponsors of EuroPython 2005, 
> however we have not yet decide on what levels of Sponsorship we are 
> going to offer nor what the pricing will be; this whould be decided at 
> the latest by the end of this week, and I will get back to you as soon 
> as it happens.

Very good.

> Nevertheless, to help with preparations, we can provide information on 
> what *is* available.
> 
> You mention that you need a room. Do you need a separate room to use for 
>  customer meetings or do you mean that you intened to hold a 
> talsk/session? If the former, what days do you wish to have acess to it?

I would like to have a session about our specific apis at the same time. 
This will have to be a closed session for our customers since most of 
the API calls are under NDA. One of the days. Maybe the second? Since I 
have not invited my customers yet I can say any day.

> I must mention that we are not certain we may be able to aquire a 
> separate room, but we will most cerntainly look in what possiblities we 
> have and get back to you ASAP.

Please do.

> To get the name displayed in the Website and Printed Material is no 
> problem. We have already a banner exposure and rotation system in place 
> that you can see in action right now if you go to www.europython.org.
> 
> We offer two options:
> 
> Top banners:
> -------------------
> 
> * exposure: displayed on every page, randomly rotating
> * Size: 468x60
> * required information:
>   - a link to a site (url)
>   - the name of the company
>   - a short text description (for search engine, e.g. google,
>     etc and for the textbased version of the site)
> 
> 
> Online banners:
> ------------------------
> 
> * exposure: on 1 or several folders of the site.
> * Size: 160x320
> * required information:
>   - a link to a site (url)
>   - the name of the company
>   - a short text description (see top banners)
>   - the folder in the site where it should be displayed
> 
> * example: http://www.europython.org/sections/accomodation/cheap_hotels
> 
> 
> Accepted image formats: JPEG, PNG, GIF
> 
> Please take care to keep file sizes small, index the image if possible.
> 
> Banners should be sent to jmo@ita.chalmers.se for insertion in the site.
> 
> The specifications for an advert to appear in the printed material are 
> not yet set since we are working on them at the moment. When these are 
> set, we will notify you.
> 
> Sending 4 people to the conference should be no problem. If you prefer, 
> we are willing to discuss their participation as part of the sponsorship 
> agreement.

Sounds, good. Lets hold of with the banner until I have the full package 
of what I want to do and have to give.

> Lastly, I am not sure I understand what you mean by selling tickets to 
> your customers. Normally, interested people register themselves on the 
> web-based registration system. Do you mean that you, for your customers, 
> wish to provide other options for registreation that are managed by you? 
> If you provide more info we can work something out.

I would like to care of my customers regestration and forward them to 
you. We will probably do a package where EP is one of the components in 
the Package.

> If you have any more questions, or if you feel something is unclear you 
> are welcome to contact me again, either by mail (dario@ita.chalmers.se) 
> or by telephone (+46 31 772 8674).

The actionlist seems like:

Get back to me on a price/commitment for all the following:
Local for 2 hours during one of the days.
Four persons attending.
Logo on homepage (alternative 2)
Some kind of regestration procedure..

-- Tobias


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From jmo at chalmers.se  Tue Apr  5 15:17:49 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Tue Apr  5 15:18:12 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Launch of website
In-Reply-To: <1112706366.5895.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200503311714.40076.jacob@strakt.com>	
	<20050331153508.GE28481@amaze.nl>
	<200503311751.15945.jacob@strakt.com>	
	<1112341943.8250.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>	
	<20050401083359.GG28481@amaze.nl>	
	<1112701828.5895.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>	
	<425283E3.6080202@chalmers.se>
	<1112706366.5895.33.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <42528FFD.4040503@chalmers.se>

Sjors Robroek wrote:

>>there seems to be a problem in the rewrite form:
>>
>>see:
>>https://secure.zope.nl/europython/?theme=default
>>
>>
>>/JM
>>
>>    
>>
>
>The rewrite rule wasn't correctly configured to use a VHM, but that's
>been fixed now. The only problem that's still there is the fact that all
>hrefs link to /, while they should link to /europython/. I don't know
>wether this is a CPS problem or the fact that your content is all links
>to an absolute root, so i think you should take a look at this.
>
>Greetings,
>  
>

HI!
Add a /_vh_europython after VirtualHostRoot ...


/europython
http://localhost:8083/VirtualHostBase/http/localhost:80/europython/VirtualHostRoot/_vh_europython


/JM


From jacob at strakt.com  Tue Apr  5 18:01:42 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Tue Apr  5 18:05:08 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Example of scripting for the registration website
Message-ID: <200504051801.42883.jacob@strakt.com>

Hi!

Michael asked about the problem of building a schedule from the data
in CAPSconference. Here is a simple example extracting some of the talk data.
On top of this, there is an Event object for each time a talk is presented. It 
is just as simple to extract and present.

Jacob
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From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Apr  6 14:55:55 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Wed Apr  6 14:56:20 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Stats for EuroPython 2004?
Message-ID: <4253DC5B.8080003@ita.chalmers.se>

Hello,

i'd like to have som stats for EuroPython 2004 (visitors, sponsors). Are 
they available somwhere?

Also, i'ld like to have a peek at the budget for epc 2005, if there is one.

/dario
-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Apr  6 15:04:53 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Wed Apr  6 15:05:17 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Stats for EuroPython 2004?
In-Reply-To: <4253DC5B.8080003@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <4253DC5B.8080003@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4253DE75.4040003@ita.chalmers.se>

me wrotes:
> Also, i'ld like to have a peek at the budget for epc 2005, if there is one.

eek, that sounded nasty :-[; I meant "the budget for epc 2005, if it is 
finished yet".

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Wed Apr  6 15:54:34 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Wed Apr  6 15:54:37 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
Message-ID: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>

Hello to all the members of the KeyNoteSpeaker recruiting Team (KNSrT)


Who knows anything 'bout

http://www.paulgraham.com/index.html

Paul Graham ???

He wrote "hackers and painters", got a Millionair during
dot.com<http://dot.com>bubble, founds startups ..

a) can he speak enthuastically?
b) has anyone heard him?

what do you think, could he fit?

Harald


-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From jacob at strakt.com  Wed Apr  6 16:43:52 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Wed Apr  6 16:44:09 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200504061643.52879.jacob@strakt.com>

On onsdag 06 april 2005 15:54, Harald Armin Massa wrote:
> Hello to all the members of the KeyNoteSpeaker recruiting Team (KNSrT)
>
>
> Who knows anything 'bout
>
> http://www.paulgraham.com/index.html
>
> Paul Graham ???
>
> He wrote "hackers and painters", got a Millionair during
> dot.com<http://dot.com>bubble, founds startups ..
>
> a) can he speak enthuastically?
> b) has anyone heard him?
>
> what do you think, could he fit?

Paul Graham spoke at one of the earlier Pycon's. I found him to be a good 
speaker with some fairly interesting things to say. At Pycon he spoke about 
the future of programming languages, especially with a view towards Python 
3000. His opinions on that matter were fairly far out.

I think he could be a good speaker for Europython, but I'd prefer if he spoke 
on a different subject.. He has many interesting ones in his essays.

Jacob
From mwh at python.net  Wed Apr  6 17:02:17 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr  6 17:02:18 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <200504061643.52879.jacob@strakt.com> (
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jacob_Hall=E9n's_message_of?= "Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:43:52
	+0200")
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
	<200504061643.52879.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net>

Jacob Hall?n <jacob@strakt.com> writes:

> On onsdag 06 april 2005 15:54, Harald Armin Massa wrote:
>> Hello to all the members of the KeyNoteSpeaker recruiting Team (KNSrT)
>>
>>
>> Who knows anything 'bout
>>
>> http://www.paulgraham.com/index.html
>>
>> Paul Graham ???
>>
>> He wrote "hackers and painters", got a Millionair during
>> dot.com<http://dot.com>bubble, founds startups ..
>>
>> a) can he speak enthuastically?
>> b) has anyone heard him?
>>
>> what do you think, could he fit?
>
> Paul Graham spoke at one of the earlier Pycon's. I found him to be a good 
> speaker with some fairly interesting things to say. At Pycon he spoke about 
> the future of programming languages, especially with a view towards Python 
> 3000. His opinions on that matter were fairly far out.

He would surely be interesting.

For some reason, I'm full of names today (something that notably
wasn't true yesterday on IRC): Kent Beck, any of the Design Patterns
Gang of Four, Richard Gabriel, Peter Norvig, James Gosling.  All a bit
American, though, and I've no idea how likely any of them would be to
accept an invitation.  Or if any of them are interesting speakers.

A more off the wall suggestion would be Ken Macleod -- leftie British
Sci-Fi author with a bit of a techie streak.  Or Iain Banks -- the
same, but Scottish and probably a bit less of a geek.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  If design space weren't so vast, and the good solutions so small a
  portion of it, programming would be a lot easier.
                                            -- maney, comp.lang.python
From john at clocksoft.com  Wed Apr  6 18:30:36 2005
From: john at clocksoft.com (John Pinner)
Date: Wed Apr  6 18:30:44 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>	<200504061643.52879.jacob@strakt.com>
	<2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com>

Michael Hudson wrote:
> Jacob Hall?n <jacob@strakt.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>On onsdag 06 april 2005 15:54, Harald Armin Massa wrote:
>>
>>>Hello to all the members of the KeyNoteSpeaker recruiting Team (KNSrT)
>>>
>>>
>>>Who knows anything 'bout
>>>
>>>http://www.paulgraham.com/index.html
>>>
>>>Paul Graham ???
>>>
>>>He wrote "hackers and painters", got a Millionair during
>>>dot.com<http://dot.com>bubble, founds startups ..
>>>
>>>a) can he speak enthuastically?
>>>b) has anyone heard him?
>>>
>>>what do you think, could he fit?
>>
>>Paul Graham spoke at one of the earlier Pycon's. I found him to be a good 
>>speaker with some fairly interesting things to say. At Pycon he spoke about 
>>the future of programming languages, especially with a view towards Python 
>>3000. His opinions on that matter were fairly far out.
> 
> 
> He would surely be interesting.
> 
> For some reason, I'm full of names today (something that notably
> wasn't true yesterday on IRC): Kent Beck, any of the Design Patterns
> Gang of Four, Richard Gabriel, Peter Norvig, James Gosling.  All a bit
> American, though, and I've no idea how likely any of them would be to
> accept an invitation.  Or if any of them are interesting speakers.
> 
> A more off the wall suggestion would be Ken Macleod -- leftie British
> Sci-Fi author with a bit of a techie streak.  Or Iain Banks -- the
> same, but Scottish and probably a bit less of a geek.

I think keynote speakers are always a problem: there a several 
'inspirational' speakers about, but often you think after their talk 
'What a great talk, but actually what was it about, what was the 
message?' On the other hand, if the speaker is not that good a speaker, 
the message may get lost.

The Pycon keynoters this year were not that impressive. Guido said that 
his keynotes are always crap, but hey he's Guido and he has important 
things to say about Python, so he's wrong. The Google keynote told us 
nothing. Jim Huganin's talk on IronPython at the evil empire was 
interesting and witty, that would be good for EP, even if there wasn't a 
deep message.

Of the keynotes we've had at EP before, the ones that stand out in my 
mind were from Eric Raymond (although I realise that there are reasons 
why some people might not wish to invite Eric back), and Mark 
Shuttleworth. Although Mark's talk was largely about his space trip, 
that was interesting in itself, and he had a very basic and simple 
message about keeping Python simple and true to its roots which I hope 
we all remember.

Ideas:

Jim Huganin.

Larry Wall (despite what people say, there is a lot of common ground 
with PERL, there'd be no harm and maybe a lot of good from the two 
communities working together).

Steve Holden.  Good speaker, long time Python buff and PSF board member. 
Could be available without too much trouble as he is moving from USA to 
UK this summer.

RMS if we could get him (would he come?). Some of his opinions might 
hurt some of the more commercial Python people, but that might provoke 
good things.

Someone from the FFII? Lots of ignorance about the importance of the 
patents issue in the Python community, I fear.


Regards,

John
---

intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com)

From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr  Wed Apr  6 18:49:28 2005
From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Wed Apr  6 18:49:36 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
	<200504061643.52879.jacob@strakt.com>
	<2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050406164928.GH3891@logilab.fr>

On Wed, Apr 06, 2005 at 05:30:36PM +0100, John Pinner wrote:

> Someone from the FFII? Lots of ignorance about the importance of the 
> patents issue in the Python community, I fear.

+1

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  
From bh at udev.org  Wed Apr  6 18:59:20 2005
From: bh at udev.org (Henrion Benjamin)
Date: Wed Apr  6 18:59:22 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <20050406164928.GH3891@logilab.fr>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
	<200504061643.52879.jacob@strakt.com>
	<2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com> <20050406164928.GH3891@logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <20050406165919.GU28475@localhost>

Nicolas Chauvat <Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr> [050406]:
> On Wed, Apr 06, 2005 at 05:30:36PM +0100, John Pinner wrote:
> 
> > Someone from the FFII? Lots of ignorance about the importance of the 
> > patents issue in the Python community, I fear.
> 
> +1

Most people active on the issue will be lobbying in Brussels in June.

Anyway, maybe Christian Engstrom or other people from FFII-se can
participate? (putting se-parl in CC:)

-- 
Benjamin Henrion <bh@udev.org>
http://bh.udev.org
<<                 Software patents are a Temptation                     >>>
<<                  Temptation leads to Stagnation                       >>>
<<                Stagnation leads to the Dark Side.                     >>>
From jacob at strakt.com  Wed Apr  6 20:51:48 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Wed Apr  6 20:51:58 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
	<2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com>
Message-ID: <200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>

Good to have a discussion going. I agree with a lot of what John, said, but I 
do have a few other aspects I'd like to mention.

The first one is the marketing aspect. A keynote gives you a poster name, and 
it matters in two ways. One is that an interesting sounding keynote will 
actually attract participants and weigh in favour when undecided people make 
up their minds. The other one is that in the view of the general public, the 
prestige and seriousness of your conference is affected by the sort of 
keynote speakers you have.

This is where I think Europython has done better than Pycon. We have had 
keynote speakers (apart from Guido), who have talked about things that 
transcend Python, and I think this has affected the whole spirit of 
Europython.

My other aspect is that I think a keynote is the opportunity to be a bit 
different from the regular talks. Most people go to Europython to work hard 
and to listen to talks that will actually help them in their work, so after a 
hard day of work, they should be able to settle down and hear something that 
is entertaining, thought provoking and which does not have a direct bearing 
on their everyday work.

This means that (to me) it is more important that keynote speakers are 
entertaining than that they are relevant.

However, I respect that others have different opinions, and since I have 
happily delegated this matter, I will respect whatever decision the 
subcommittee makes.

Jacob
From jacob at strakt.com  Wed Apr  6 21:42:00 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Wed Apr  6 21:42:04 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Replies to some questions posed on IRC
Message-ID: <200504062142.00742.jacob@strakt.com>

The official count of participants last year is 305. This includes some 
non-paying people, like reception staff, keynote speakers and tracks chairs.

Most of the sprinting I have assumed takes place after the conference. SGS is 
booked to a large degree before Mid-summer, and logistics for sprints will be 
hard during the Mid-summer weekend.

Pypy will have a private sprint before the conference, but we plan to have 
that one in my apartment, where we have a full kitchen and accomodation for 
most of the sprinters. Then we will have an open sprint after the conference, 
were we want to mingle with other sprints.

Jacob
From magnus at thinkware.se  Thu Apr  7 08:14:34 2005
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka)
Date: Thu Apr  7 08:14:39 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Springsteen in Goteborg week before EPC
Message-ID: <think001_4254ceb4f2b01@webmail.thinkware.se>

I case you'll be in G?teborg the week before EPC and
like Bruce Springsteen, he'll be playing here the
23rd of June. Tickets not yet released.


-- 
Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB
http://www.thinkware.se/  mailto:magnus@thinkware.se
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Sun Apr 10 09:35:48 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Sun Apr 10 09:35:50 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
	<2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net> <42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com>
	<200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d05041000351fffdba7@mail.gmail.com>

All members of the KNSRT!


>This is where I think Europython has done better than Pycon. We have had
>keynote speakers (apart from Guido), who have talked about things that
>transcend Python, and I think this has affected the whole spirit of
>Europython.

I support this idea. Often I see python transcend itself - we have Zen 
included in the Standard Library, no other language can do that.
We have the concept of "treating programmers as humans and not as numbers to 
exchange", which is allways in opposite to that Java in Elbonia-Concept of 
project management.

So, anyway:
who ist that guy?
http://dirtsimple.org/

I think he might fit into that Python and transcending idea. I DO NOT want 
him to talk about generic functions, WHATEVER that may be... but he has a 
lot of transcending stuff.

Harald


-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From faassen at infrae.com  Mon Apr 11 12:56:18 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Mon Apr 11 12:53:51 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <20050406165919.GU28475@localhost>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>	<200504061643.52879.jacob@strakt.com>	<2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net>	<42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com>
	<20050406164928.GH3891@logilab.fr>
	<20050406165919.GU28475@localhost>
Message-ID: <425A57D2.6000007@infrae.com>

Henrion Benjamin wrote:
> Nicolas Chauvat <Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr> [050406]:
> 
>>On Wed, Apr 06, 2005 at 05:30:36PM +0100, John Pinner wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Someone from the FFII? Lots of ignorance about the importance of the 
>>>patents issue in the Python community, I fear.
>>
>>+1
> 
> 
> Most people active on the issue will be lobbying in Brussels in June.
> 
> Anyway, maybe Christian Engstrom or other people from FFII-se can
> participate? (putting se-parl in CC:)

I personally don't want to hear more preaching to the choir about the 
evils of software patterns; as a talk, yes, but as a keynote, please no. 
Something inspirational is needed, not something depressing...

Regards,

Martijn
From faassen at infrae.com  Mon Apr 11 13:01:24 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Mon Apr 11 12:58:52 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>	<2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net>	<42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com>
	<200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <425A5904.1040302@infrae.com>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
[snip]
> This is where I think Europython has done better than Pycon. We have had 
> keynote speakers (apart from Guido), who have talked about things that 
> transcend Python, and I think this has affected the whole spirit of 
> Europython.

As a datapoint:

At the first PyCon, there was a talk by Paul Graham. Interesting, but 
not about Python at all. Basically about how languages like Lisp are the 
future and some tiny nods to Python about being enough like Lisp to be 
part of the "good languages". It was fun, it transcended python I guess, 
but a *bit* more about Python would've been good. :)

> My other aspect is that I think a keynote is the opportunity to be a bit 
> different from the regular talks. Most people go to Europython to work hard 
> and to listen to talks that will actually help them in their work, so after a 
> hard day of work, they should be able to settle down and hear something that 
> is entertaining, thought provoking and which does not have a direct bearing 
> on their everyday work.

> This means that (to me) it is more important that keynote speakers are 
> entertaining than that they are relevant.

This is true, but some relevance (from at least an inspirational point 
of view) would be nice. In this sense something slightly more business 
oriented might be good, as compared to language-techie oriented (which 
Paul Graham's talk was). Mark Shuttleworth's talk had a nice mix of 
space, python, and new linux distributions (with good python support); I 
liked that. :)

Regards,

Martijn
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Mon Apr 11 12:59:37 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Mon Apr 11 12:59:39 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <425A57D2.6000007@infrae.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
	<200504061643.52879.jacob@strakt.com>
	<2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net> <42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com>
	<20050406164928.GH3891@logilab.fr> <20050406165919.GU28475@localhost>
	<425A57D2.6000007@infrae.com>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d0504110359248bfcf1@mail.gmail.com>

Martijn,

yeah, SoftwarePatents are evil. And you are right:


I personally don't want to hear more preaching to the choir about the
> evils of software patterns; as a talk, yes, but as a keynote, please no.
> Something inspirational is needed, not something depressing...
> 

a keynote would be preaching to the choir. Maybe we can have some 
"preconference gathering" and having a press conference, where we formulate 
a statement against Software Patents. That would be publishable at least in 
Goetheborg press community, and the usual suspects.

Doing that with another organization, on every conference we have some 
"public statement", which gives journalists a headline. "xxx people from yyy 
countrys come together to discuss and learn zzz. In their pressconference on 
%d.%m.%Y they %(public_statemen)s ...."

Harald

-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From faassen at infrae.com  Mon Apr 11 13:35:41 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Mon Apr 11 13:33:15 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d05041000351fffdba7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>	<2msm247xty.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<42540EAC.2070305@clocksoft.com>	<200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
	<7be3f35d05041000351fffdba7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425A610D.2070409@infrae.com>

Harald Armin Massa wrote:
[snip]
> So, anyway:
> who ist that guy?
> http://dirtsimple.org/
> 
> I think he might fit into that Python and transcending idea. I DO NOT want 
> him to talk about generic functions, WHATEVER that may be... but he has a 
> lot of transcending stuff.

Phillip Eby. If we're going for Python bloggers, I'd prefer Ian Bicking 
in this case. Phillip is pretty much about the code typically (and 
you'll get generic methods and so on), Ian tends to discuss Python in 
the wider world more, etc.

Regards,

Martijn
From stephan.richter at tufts.edu  Mon Apr 11 14:23:51 2005
From: stephan.richter at tufts.edu (Stephan Richter)
Date: Mon Apr 11 14:23:56 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <425A5904.1040302@infrae.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
	<200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com> <425A5904.1040302@infrae.com>
Message-ID: <200504110823.51913.stephan.richter@tufts.edu>

On Monday 11 April 2005 07:01, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> > This is where I think Europython has done better than Pycon. We have had
> > keynote speakers (apart from Guido), who have talked about things that
> > transcend Python, and I think this has affected the whole spirit of
> > Europython.
>
> As a datapoint:
>
> At the first PyCon, there was a talk by Paul Graham. Interesting, but
> not about Python at all. Basically about how languages like Lisp are the
> future and some tiny nods to Python about being enough like Lisp to be
> part of the "good languages". It was fun, it transcended python I guess,
> but a *bit* more about Python would've been good. :):)

I think you were very polite here. Paul Graham's key note sucked and we were 
all looking at each other thinking "What the f*ck?". Really, he talked about 
how Python needs this new graph datatype to be as cool as Lisp, for example. 
I do not think a talk like that shouls be ever a key note at a Python 
conference.

Regards,
Stephan
-- 
Stephan Richter
CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student)
Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training
From faassen at infrae.com  Mon Apr 11 16:31:52 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Mon Apr 11 16:29:17 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] volunteer hunt: Python Frameworks track chair?
Message-ID: <425A8A58.5020303@infrae.com>

Hi there,

I just learned today that the Python Frameworks track chair is vacant. I
don't want to fill it myself (I've done it the last 3 years and want to
be a bit more free at the conference; plus someone else might actually
improve stuff. :), so I am hunting for a volunteer. I'll help out any 
volunteers of course if any of my advice is necessary.

The obvious first place to ask for a track chair volunteer is on this list.

I'm going to be really dumb now and scare people off by listing stuff
you need to do. :) Being the Python frameworks track chair would involve:

* processing talk proposals for the Python frameworks track, and keeping
the (potential) speakers up to date. This can be done through the website.

* selecting and accepting proposals.

* keeping well-synched with the other trackchairs and organizers through
this mailing list and regular irc meetings.

* help to put down the program. This is a puzzle of fitting talks into 
slots, possibly negotation with other track chairs over time. :) I 
recommend keeping the talks short (30 minutes).

* being there while the track is held, helping with any (technical)
problems that may occur, making sure speakers end and begin on time.
Possibly if there is some discussion or Q&A session, help moderate this.

Regards,

Martijn
From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Apr 11 17:26:09 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Mon Apr 11 17:26:14 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Marketing plan
Message-ID: <200504111726.09797.jacob@strakt.com>

As promised, I have made a plan for the marketing. Comments and additions are 
very welcome.

The most important parts of the marketing are the emails to previous attendees 
and the psosts to c.l.p.a.

The products that are needed are:

* Newsflashes by 15 April, 28 April, 13 May, 1 June and 12 June.

* Press release in Swedish (Sometime before June)

* Press release in English (Sometime before June)

* Invitation to Swedish Universities (Sometime before mid-May)

* PDF for printing (Sometime before mid-May)

Previous attendees
==================

Personal invitations (in English) by email:

* When call for papers is published (Done)

* A few days before registration of refereed papers ends (ends 22 April, we 
may want to combine this with the registration announcement)

* A few days before registration of talks ends (ends 1 May)

* When registration opens (Around 15 April, work is still going on)

* Shortly before early-bird cutoff (Cutoff is 16 May)

I have a script that does the mailing.

International Python community
==============================

As above, plus a couple of reminders after early-bird cut-off.

This should go to comp.lang.python and europython-announce@python.org as
well as any other mailing list you can think of as suitable.

International Zope community
==============================

News entry on Zope.org?
Mailing lists?

I'm afraid I don't know much about this world. I think you do.

People outside the communities
====================================

A press release in Swedish should be made and sent to the Swedish
computer press as well as G?teborgsposten and any other suitable
place.

The magazines and journals I can think of are:

* Ny Teknik

* Computer Sweden

* Datormagazin

* gnuheter.org

* Elekroniktidningen

* Elekronik i Norden

Educators
=========

We send our press releases to education magazines and IT education
focused websites. No special adaption needed.

I never did this last year, and I don't know where to send stuff.
Maybe we can find someone at Chalmers who knows where it should go.
(They used to have a person who was focused on learning methods
at Kloka Huset. Maybe they still have someone like that.)

University students
===================

We make a pdf poster and we make an invitation that we mail to CS
departments and computer societies at selected universities.

* KTH

* Link?ping

* Lund

* Karlstad

* Lule?

* Stockholms Universitet

* Uppsala Universitet

* H?gskolan in Sk?vde

* H?gskolan i Trollh?ttan/Uddevalla

* H?gskolan i Karlskrona/Ronneby

Chalmers gets special treatment with posters on-campus inviting students
to particpate for free in exchange for work in the reception.

Selected individuals and companies
==================================

The people who are closest to them send personal invitations,
including some boilerplate about the conference, how to register,
where to find information etc.

I did this with places like Ericsson, Astra Zeneca, MySQL, Diamo,
Intentia, IFS, IBS, Pythonware and Volvo IT last year. I hope I will
have time to do it this year as well. Doing it late in the process
is not a problem.

This year we should market the fact that we have a focus on Python
language introduction.

Other special interests
=======================

Marketing is up to each respective track chair. Usage of the common
products is encouraged.

International marketing outside the Python and Zope communities
===============================================================

This would be nice, but it requires the efforts of other people.
From andy at reportlab.com  Mon Apr 11 17:34:37 2005
From: andy at reportlab.com (andy@reportlab.com)
Date: Mon Apr 11 17:34:42 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Ten days to go to Python-UK...
Message-ID: <andyrobinson-0jTE2Ays+IOkdCHROm+hdFqS6uAASZM@mailblocks.com>

This is a reminder that there are just ten days left before the UK 
Python
Conference.  This is the one chance in the UK each year to hear 
in-depth
talks on a wide variety of topics from top Python experts. It
takes place at the Randolph Hotel in Oxford on 21-23 April.

     http://www.accu.org/conference/python.html

The Python event is part of the ACCU Conference which is one of the 
world's
leading events on C++, Java, patterns and development methods.

We are very happy to announce that Greg Stein will be flying in to
talk about "Python at Google" as our keynote talk.  We've got a
great array of talks on language features, GUIs, network programming,
testing tools, PyPy; and case studies and expertise from many of the 
key Python
companies and projects including Google, the BBC, SchoolTool, PyPy,
AB Strakt, Clocksoft and ReportLab.

Places are limited, so please register now at...
    https://www.accu.org/bookings/


Best Regards,

Andy Robinson
ACCU Python Conference Chair

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Apr 11 22:26:44 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Mon Apr 11 22:27:22 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
Message-ID: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se>


hello,

I am trying to understand the various, imho, religious subcultures(*) in 
the Python world, and I need someone to explain what the heck "Pythonic" 
means.

How do you judge if something is "pythonic" or not?

(*) the most prominent example is the "zope is not pythonic" thing that 
goes around a lot.

As reference, I have a strong background in the Mac-vs-Pc wars since 
before 1990, so I know a religious subculture when I see one ;-)

Thanks,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From nico at logilab.fr  Tue Apr 12 00:06:37 2005
From: nico at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue Apr 12 00:06:41 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <20050411220637.GA1471@crater.logilab.fr>

On Mon, Apr 11, 2005 at 10:26:44PM +0200, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:

> (*) the most prominent example is the "zope is not pythonic" thing that 
> goes around a lot.

Try this: 

"Zope uses Python, but Python has not much use for Zope."

or maybe better

"Zope imports Python, but Python cannot import Zope."


of course Zope3 will save the world at some point though...

:-)

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  
From andy at reportlab.com  Tue Apr 12 00:47:29 2005
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Tue Apr 12 00:47:31 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKMEMACJAA.andy@reportlab.com>

At XML Europe last year, there was a keynote I really
enjoyed from Steven Pemberton at the W3C.  He's chair of 
various key W3C committees with an impressive resume.

   http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/

He was a colleague of Guido's in the early days at CWI (and
had photos of both of them with some very weird hairstyles,
as well as plenty of anecdotes about ABC and GvR). Mercifully
he didn't talk about XML much, in fact I think he was
telling them they had overcomplicated it.

His talk was about 'keeping things simple' and human-oriented
in programming in general.  It was quite inspiring and very funny.  

He's based in Holland so not far to travel. I have a hunch
he might find it appealing.  


Best Regards,

Andy Robinson


From magnus at thinkware.se  Tue Apr 12 01:52:58 2005
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka)
Date: Tue Apr 12 01:53:03 2005
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBXaGF0IHRoZSBoZWNrIGRvZXMgInB5dGhvbmljIiBtZWFuPw==?=
Message-ID: <think001_425b0654589bb@webmail.thinkware.se>

> How do you judge if something is "pythonic" or not?

Typing "import this" at the python prompt is a good beginning.

I'm sure others can explain this better, but using Zope is
certainly a very different experience than "normal" Python
programming.

It's always different to work with a "plain" programming
environment where you "own main()", where you write the code
which is in charge, and use various libraries to handle various
aspects of your problem, compared to working with a framework
such as Zope.

Every framworks imposes an overhead and its own paradigm, but
I think Zope might initially feel more strange to Python
programmers than other frameworks, since it takes quite a while
before you even get close to coding Python in it... With 
something like Twisted, you are also inside the bounds of a
framework, and you have to play by its rules, but at least you
are writing Python code that you save as normal text files from
the very start. You are not clicking around in some odd HTML
interface filling in various forms...

Besides "The Zen of Python", I think most Python programmers
live more or less in accordance with the Unix Philosophy. I
can recommend Mike Gancarz' book The UNIX Philosophy, or you
can look at http://linuxfinances.info/info/unix.html or http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch01s06.html for some clues.
Python goes far beyond pipes, but trying to keep things small
and simple, avoiding big monolithic programs and keeping data
and code as text files are examples of things that seem Pythonic
to me, but is violated by Zope.

Perhaps a "Spirit of Python" talk would be useful at the conference.

-- 
Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB
http://www.thinkware.se/  mailto:magnus@thinkware.se
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Apr 12 06:39:50 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Apr 12 06:40:31 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <think001_425b0654589bb@webmail.thinkware.se>
References: <think001_425b0654589bb@webmail.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <425B5116.6040004@ita.chalmers.se>

Magnus Lycka wrote:
>>How do you judge if something is "pythonic" or not?
> 
> Typing "import this" at the python prompt is a good beginning.
> 
> I'm sure others can explain this better, but using Zope is
> certainly a very different experience than "normal" Python
> programming.
> 
> It's always different to work with a "plain" programming
> environment where you "own main()", where you write the code
> which is in charge, and use various libraries to handle various
> aspects of your problem, compared to working with a framework
> such as Zope.
> 
> Every framworks imposes an overhead and its own paradigm, but
> I think Zope might initially feel more strange to Python
> programmers than other frameworks, since it takes quite a while
> before you even get close to coding Python in it... With 
> something like Twisted, you are also inside the bounds of a
> framework, and you have to play by its rules, but at least you
> are writing Python code that you save as normal text files from
> the very start. You are not clicking around in some odd HTML
> interface filling in various forms...

But nowadays I do the above every day when I am programming Zope. I am 
writing all my code in the Filesystem and then i either CVS or SVN it; 
for instance I am using a library  that is used in a standalone python 
CLI tool and building a web interface to int using Zope/Plone.

And for the application that I am building it is not at all CMS 
oriented, it is a an interface to our custom Directory Services and user 
account system. In this particular case Zope is used only for it's Web 
functions.

Is this not "Pythonic" in the sense you mean?

Now, the very same thing you criticise is what I think is a major bonus 
point for Zope. Providing ease of use for the end user. I also am one of 
the maintainer of big application entirely built with TTW code and 
templates, and yes, it is not as easy to maintain as FS code, but I do 
not make religious war over it.

 From my point of view, I find the notion of dismissing Zope just 
because  it provides an alternative way of development for end users a 
bit strange. Zope provides a full blown environment for all kinds of 
users, hardcore hackers and end users alike, so I still don't know what 
people mean with Zope not being pythonic.

Maybe people have a hard time understanding that Zope is not *only* for 
the Python programmer?

> Besides "The Zen of Python", I think most Python programmers
> live more or less in accordance with the Unix Philosophy. I
> can recommend Mike Gancarz' book The UNIX Philosophy, or you
> can look at http://linuxfinances.info/info/unix.html or
> http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch01s06.html for some clues.
> Python goes far beyond pipes, but trying to keep things small
> and simple, avoiding big monolithic programs and keeping data
> and code as text files are examples of things that seem Pythonic
> to me, but is violated by Zope.

Well, my impression is that this is not 100% true for many python 
programmers:

" Store numerical data in flat ASCII files " - that was easy to say a fw 
years back when the world was simpler than it is today. But then Object 
orientation came along, and people started to speak of "persistence" and 
  "serialisation", and different techniques to store objects for easy 
consumption, this did not become 100% necessary.

Of course, with XML, it is easier to do.

> Perhaps a "Spirit of Python" talk would be useful at the conference.
> 


-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Apr 12 06:58:33 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Apr 12 06:59:13 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <think001_425b0654589bb@webmail.thinkware.se>
References: <think001_425b0654589bb@webmail.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <425B5579.9060702@ita.chalmers.se>

[dang! this message was sent before it was finished. apologies for that. 
I edited things a bit, too...]

Magnus Lycka wrote:
>>How do you judge if something is "pythonic" or not?
> 
> Typing "import this" at the python prompt is a good beginning.
> 
> I'm sure others can explain this better, but using Zope is
> certainly a very different experience than "normal" Python
> programming.
> 
> It's always different to work with a "plain" programming
> environment where you "own main()", where you write the code
> which is in charge, and use various libraries to handle various
> aspects of your problem, compared to working with a framework
> such as Zope.
> 
> Every framworks imposes an overhead and its own paradigm, but
> I think Zope might initially feel more strange to Python
> programmers than other frameworks, since it takes quite a while
> before you even get close to coding Python in it... With 
> something like Twisted, you are also inside the bounds of a
> framework, and you have to play by its rules, but at least you
> are writing Python code that you save as normal text files from
> the very start. You are not clicking around in some odd HTML
> interface filling in various forms...

But nowadays I do the above every day when I am programming Zope. I am
writing all my code in the Filesystem and then i either CVS or SVN it;
for instance I am using a library  that is used in a standalone python
CLI tool and building a web interface to int using Zope/Plone.

And for the application that I am building it is not at all CMS
oriented, it is a an interface to our custom Directory Services and user
account system. In this particular case Zope is used only for it's Web
functions.

Is this not "Pythonic" in the sense you mean?

Now, the very same thing you criticise is what I think is a major bonus
point for Zope. Providing ease of use for the end user. I also am one of
the maintainer of big application entirely built with TTW code and
templates, and yes, it is not as easy to maintain as FS code, but I do
not make religious war over it.

 From my point of view, I find the notion of dismissing Zope just
because  it provides an alternative way of development for end users a
bit strange. Zope provides a full blown environment for all kinds of
users, hardcore hackers and end users alike, so I still don't know what
people mean with Zope not being pythonic.

Maybe people have a hard time understanding that Zope is not *only* for
the Python programmer?

> Besides "The Zen of Python", I think most Python programmers
> live more or less in accordance with the Unix Philosophy. I
> can recommend Mike Gancarz' book The UNIX Philosophy, or you
> can look at http://linuxfinances.info/info/unix.html or
> http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch01s06.html for some clues.
> Python goes far beyond pipes, but trying to keep things small
> and simple, avoiding big monolithic programs and keeping data
> and code as text files are examples of things that seem Pythonic
> to me, but is violated by Zope.

Well, my impression is that this is not 100% true for many python
programmers:

" Store numerical data in flat ASCII files " - that was easy to say a fw
years back when the world was simpler than it is today. But then Object
orientation came along, and people started to speak of "persistence" and
  "serialisation", and different techniques to store objects for easy
consumption, this did not become 100% necessary.

Of course, with XML, it is easier to do portable data, though now that I 
write this, I realise that what I mean is for general arbitrary data and 
objects, not only numerical data, but I have heard this argument for 
non-numerical data too.

" Use software leverage to your advantage
Don't force yourself or others to reimplement functionality; make it 
easy to reuse functionality. "

It is my impression that this is not necessarily true in the python 
world. In fact I often find it is the exact opposite. I.e. the amount of 
framworks for web-publishing, the various libraries for XML-processing 
to name two examples. This is certainly true of the Zope world too. I.e. 
how many Forum/Board products are there? Loads...

"  Worse is better
Cheap and effective beats technically superior but expensive "

This, IMHO, is definetely not true for lots of python code. Lots of 
python stuff is sometimes really abstract and almost magical to the 
level that even the simplicity of python syntax is no help in trying to 
understand the code.

To be honest, I sometimes find it easier to read and understand Perl 
code from CPAN than it is to comprehend what some python code does 
(caveat empor - it may be that I am not as good a developer as I would 
like to be :P. YMMV).

> Perhaps a "Spirit of Python" talk would be useful at the conference.
> 

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx

From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 07:59:25 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Tue Apr 12 07:59:27 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKMEMACJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
References: <200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
	<OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKMEMACJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d05041122594315fdbf@mail.gmail.com>

>His talk was about 'keeping things simple' and human-oriented
>in programming in general. It was quite inspiring and very funny.

Sounds great to me. +1

And did BDFLs hairstyle change ?

Harald
-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From mwh at python.net  Tue Apr 12 09:14:43 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 12 09:14:45 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d05041122594315fdbf@mail.gmail.com> (Harald Armin
	Massa's message of "Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:59:25 +0200")
References: <200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
	<OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKMEMACJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
	<7be3f35d05041122594315fdbf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2m8y3oeaak.fsf@starship.python.net>

Harald Armin Massa <haraldarminmassa@gmail.com> writes:

>>His talk was about 'keeping things simple' and human-oriented
>>in programming in general.  It was quite inspiring and very funny.
>
> Sounds great to me. +1

And me.  Who wants to send him a mail?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
48. The best book on programming for the layman is "Alice in
    Wonderland"; but that's because it's the best book on
    anything for the layman.
  -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 09:33:26 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Tue Apr 12 09:33:29 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <2m8y3oeaak.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
	<OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKMEMACJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
	<7be3f35d05041122594315fdbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<2m8y3oeaak.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d05041200335b973126@mail.gmail.com>

And me. Who wants to send him a mail?
______________________________ 
> 
> _________________
> 


Can someone please elighten me what the conditions for a keynote speaker 
are?

I read he has free entrence to EuroPython. Does EP also agree (if absolutely 
necessary) to pay his travelling costs? And and and... 

Mese stands back if someone else is willing to write to him, but will do it 
after being enlightened.

Harald

-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From mwh at python.net  Tue Apr 12 09:46:45 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 12 10:41:15 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d05041200335b973126@mail.gmail.com> (Harald Armin
	Massa's message of "Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:33:26 +0200")
References: <200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
	<OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKMEMACJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
	<7be3f35d05041122594315fdbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<2m8y3oeaak.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<7be3f35d05041200335b973126@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2mzmw4cu8q.fsf@starship.python.net>

Harald Armin Massa <haraldarminmassa@gmail.com> writes:

> And me.  Who wants to send him a mail?
> ______________________________
>
>   _________________
>
> Can someone please elighten me what the conditions for a keynote speaker
> are?
>
> I read he has free entrence to EuroPython. Does EP also agree (if
> absolutely necessary) to pay his travelling costs? And and and...

I think travel costs are part of the package.

> Mese stands back if someone else is willing to write to him, but will do
> it after being enlightened.

I'm happy to as well, I just think we should talk about it before
everyone subscribed to this list sends a mail to their favourite
speaker idea :)

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Roll on a game of competetive offence-taking.
                                            -- Dan Sheppard, ucam.chat
From jmo at chalmers.se  Tue Apr 12 10:16:43 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Tue Apr 12 10:47:52 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] server down?
Message-ID: <425B83EB.2040000@chalmers.se>


Hi!

I can't connect to the europython.org server (194.109.109.11) via ssh -
is it down?

ping / http don't work either

best
/JM
From ivo at amaze.nl  Tue Apr 12 10:51:03 2005
From: ivo at amaze.nl (Ivo van der Wijk)
Date: Tue Apr 12 10:51:05 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] server down?
In-Reply-To: <425B83EB.2040000@chalmers.se>
References: <425B83EB.2040000@chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <20050412085103.GU345@amaze.nl>

On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 10:16:43AM +0200, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> I can't connect to the europython.org server (194.109.109.11) via ssh -
> is it down?
> 
> ping / http don't work either

There has been a short power-outtage at our colocation provider. All
services should be restored now.

www.europython.org is responding.

Cheers

        Ivo

-- 
Drs. I.R. van der Wijk                                      -=-
Korte Leidsedwarsstraat 12                                 Amaze
1017 RC Amsterdam, NL                                       -=-
T +31-20-4688336         F +31-20-4688337       Zope/Plone/Content Management
W http://www.amaze.nl    E info@amaze.nl           Open Source Solutions
W http://vanderwijk.info E ivo@amaze.nl                 Consultancy
PGP http://vanderwijk.info/pgp   
From andy at reportlab.com  Tue Apr 12 12:23:25 2005
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Tue Apr 12 12:23:25 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Anyone done things with ConferenceKit database from
	last year?
In-Reply-To: <425B83EB.2040000@chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKKEMMCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>

ReportLab's conference brochure tool, used last year,
has a hosted MySQL database dedicated to the event 
and it seems someone has changed some things - we've 
been getting alerts saying it's failing its tests.

I believe some Europythonistes had access rights
last year to help populate this.
Has anyone been making changes to this?  If so
please talk to us first, as the right procedure
is for us to set up an 'epc2005' database, not
change the 'epc2004' one.

Thanks,

Andy Robinson
From faassen at infrae.com  Tue Apr 12 13:03:35 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue Apr 12 13:03:46 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Marketing plan
In-Reply-To: <200504111726.09797.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504111726.09797.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <425BAB07.20006@infrae.com>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> As promised, I have made a plan for the marketing. Comments and additions are 
> very welcome.

One addition would be interviews. Interviews, in the month (or perhaps 
two; we need to start soon) heading up to the conference proper with 
organizers, speakers and so on are a simple way to reach many people in 
the development community and make them realize EuroPython is going to 
happen soon. Interesting interviews tend to be linked to a lot from all 
over.

Regards,

Martijn
From lac at strakt.com  Tue Apr 12 16:56:28 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Tue Apr 12 16:56:47 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters 
In-Reply-To: Message from Harald Armin Massa <haraldarminmassa@gmail.com> 
	of "Wed, 06 Apr 2005 15:54:34 +0200."
	<7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <200504121456.j3CEuSE0028940@theraft.strakt.com>

I heard him at PyCon 2 or 3 years ago.  At that point in time my position 
was that he was bright, could speak well, but didn't really know
all that much about Python.  He was speaking on 'the language for
the year 3000 or some such' and some of the stuff he wanted, we
already have.  His love of Lisp has also had an effect on exactly
what he considers 'more readable code' :-)

I could ask him what his schedule is like, and what his speaking fee is.
I suggest we ask him to talk about something other than language
design? though.

Laura

From mwh at python.net  Tue Apr 12 17:12:50 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 12 17:12:52 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <200504121456.j3CEuSE0028940@theraft.strakt.com> (Laura
	Creighton's message of "Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:56:28 +0200")
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
	<200504121456.j3CEuSE0028940@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <2moeckc9l9.fsf@starship.python.net>

Laura Creighton <lac@strakt.com> writes:

him == "Paul Graham", yes? :)

> I heard him at PyCon 2 or 3 years ago.  At that point in time my position 
> was that he was bright, could speak well, but didn't really know
> all that much about Python.  He was speaking on 'the language for
> the year 3000 or some such' and some of the stuff he wanted, we
> already have.  His love of Lisp has also had an effect on exactly
> what he considers 'more readable code' :-)
>
> I could ask him what his schedule is like, and what his speaking fee is.
> I suggest we ask him to talk about something other than language
> design? though.

I'd prefere Steve Pemberton, if he's available/amenable.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  /* I'd just like to take this moment to point out that C has all
     the expressive power of two dixie cups and a string.
   */                       -- Jamie Zawinski from the xkeycaps source
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 17:17:10 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Tue Apr 12 17:17:13 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <2moeckc9l9.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
	<200504121456.j3CEuSE0028940@theraft.strakt.com>
	<2moeckc9l9.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d05041208175c36c3eb@mail.gmail.com>

Especially,

Mr. Pemberton is dutch and therefor can more easily understand some things 
in python according to import this; and his hairstyle fits to the bdfl.

harald

-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From lac at strakt.com  Tue Apr 12 18:48:16 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Tue Apr 12 18:48:24 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters 
In-Reply-To: Message from Michael Hudson <mwh@python.net> of "Tue,
	12 Apr 2005 16:12:50 BST." <2moeckc9l9.fsf@starship.python.net> 
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>
	<200504121456.j3CEuSE0028940@theraft.strakt.com>
	<2moeckc9l9.fsf@starship.python.net> 
Message-ID: <200504121648.j3CGmGmu015900@theraft.strakt.com>

In a message of Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:12:50 BST, Michael Hudson writes:
>Laura Creighton <lac@strakt.com> writes:
>
>him == "Paul Graham", yes? :)

Yes -- sorry sorry.

Laura

>
>> I heard him at PyCon 2 or 3 years ago.  At that point in time my positi
>on 
>> was that he was bright, could speak well, but didn't really know
>> all that much about Python.  He was speaking on 'the language for
>> the year 3000 or some such' and some of the stuff he wanted, we
>> already have.  His love of Lisp has also had an effect on exactly
>> what he considers 'more readable code' :-)
>>
>> I could ask him what his schedule is like, and what his speaking fee is
>.
>> I suggest we ask him to talk about something other than language
>> design? though.
>
>I'd prefere Steve Pemberton, if he's available/amenable.
>
>Cheers,
>mwh
>
>-- 
>  /* I'd just like to take this moment to point out that C has all
>     the expressive power of two dixie cups and a string.
>   */                       -- Jamie Zawinski from the xkeycaps source
>_______________________________________________
>EuroPython mailing list
>EuroPython@python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
From faassen at infrae.com  Tue Apr 12 19:46:26 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue Apr 12 19:43:49 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d05041208175c36c3eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504060654151f8095@mail.gmail.com>	<200504121456.j3CEuSE0028940@theraft.strakt.com>	<2moeckc9l9.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<7be3f35d05041208175c36c3eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425C0972.9070608@infrae.com>

Harald Armin Massa wrote:
> Especially,
> 
> Mr. Pemberton is dutch and therefor can more easily understand some things 
> in python according to import this; and his hairstyle fits to the bdfl.

I think he's British, just based here, but I've heard good things about 
him and think I read some funny stuff by him.

+1

Regards,

Martijn
From faassen at infrae.com  Tue Apr 12 20:06:29 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue Apr 12 20:03:45 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <425C0E25.4070407@infrae.com>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:

> I am trying to understand the various, imho, religious subcultures(*) in 
> the Python world, and I need someone to explain what the heck "Pythonic" 
> means.
> 
> How do you judge if something is "pythonic" or not?
> 
> (*) the most prominent example is the "zope is not pythonic" thing that 
> goes around a lot.
> 
> As reference, I have a strong background in the Mac-vs-Pc wars since 
> before 1990, so I know a religious subculture when I see one ;-)

Others already pointed you to 'import this'.

"Pythonic" is vague, but not necessarily that much more vague than words 
like "intelligence" or "life", which, when you try to actually define 
them, tend to be slippery.

Over time, a lot of idioms and ideas arose in the Python community about 
what the right way to use Python is, and also what would be a wrong way. 
Idioms frequently cannot be ported straight from another language, as 
they look odd or cumbersome. Frameworks should also not get in the way 
of writing Python code.

So, this, for instance, is a Pythonic way of getting multiple return 
values from function:

   def something():
       return "Foo", "Bar"

   foo, bar = something()

whereas this is not:

   def something(l):
       l.append("Foo", "Bar")

   l = []
   something(l)
   foo = l[0]
   bar = l[1]

Someone coming from a language like C or C++ might however have designed 
  something like the latter.

Pythonic is to use the Python constructs and datastructures with clean, 
readable idioms. Pythonic is to exploit dynamic typing, and definitely 
not introducing static-type style verbosity into the picture where not 
needed. To be Pythonic is to avoid surprising experienced Python 
programmers with unfamiliar ways to accomplish a task.

When you get to the larger scale, to libraries and frameworks, it gets 
more contentious whether something is Pythonic or not. APIs of Python 
libraries tend to be smaller and more lightweight than those of Java 
libraries doing the same thing. If you run into a Python library which 
has a heavy-weight, overelaborate API, you tend to consider it not very 
"Pythonic".

A Python-based framework can be considered Pythonic if it doesn't try to 
reinvent the wheel too much. It should follow conventions (as far as we 
have them) on package naming, module naming, class and method naming, 
and the like. Preferably it doesn't introduce too many of its own new 
ways of doing things and tries to use as much as possible the Python 
style of doing it, as far as they exist.

Of course the problem is that frameworks, being frameworks, almost 
*inevitably* try to introduce patterns and ways of doing things that may 
not be familiar if you're used to smaller applications. That's how you 
exploit the power of a framework. Zope definitely introduces a lot of 
particular ways of doing things that you don't run into so often 
elsewhere. Acquisition is an example.

To be Pythonic for a framework is difficult. The notion of what is cool, 
idiomatic, good Python code has evolved quite significantly over the 
years, and a framework like Zope 2 definitely shows its age there.

For instance, in recent years there has been a movement towards 
standardizing package and module structure in Python: packages and 
modules should be brief, lowercase, singular, often in some namespace 
package, __init__.py shouldn't have many side effects, etc. Newer 
codebases like Twisted, Zope 3 and PyPy tend to follow this pattern, 
whereas older codebases like Zope 2 don't at all.

Obviously, using new language features like sets and datetimes are now 
considered Pythonic, but Zope 2 doesn't use sets (instead dictionaries 
are used, and it introduces its own BTreeSet concept), and has its own 
DateTime object. So it's not Pythonic there, but through no fault of its 
own.

For a framework, to be Pythonic, I suspect that learning curve for a 
Python programmer plays an important role. A less powerful framework 
that is easy to pick up for a Python programmer may be considered more 
Pythonic than a far more powerful system that takes more of a time 
investment. Whether it's worth it to learn the more powerful system 
depends, as always, on the exact circumstances and requirements.

Regards,

Martijn
From jacob at strakt.com  Tue Apr 12 20:06:45 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Tue Apr 12 20:07:13 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d05041200335b973126@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200504062051.49206.jacob@strakt.com>
	<2m8y3oeaak.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<7be3f35d05041200335b973126@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200504122006.45777.jacob@strakt.com>

tisdag 12 april 2005 09.33 skrev Harald Armin Massa:
> And me. Who wants to send him a mail?
> ______________________________
>
> > _________________
>
> Can someone please elighten me what the conditions for a keynote speaker
> are?
>
> I read he has free entrence to EuroPython. Does EP also agree (if
> absolutely necessary) to pay his travelling costs? And and and...
>
> Mese stands back if someone else is willing to write to him, but will do it
> after being enlightened.

Travel, economy class, hotel, conference attendance and meals is what we 
provide. We will discuss special arrangements, as long as they are reasonable 
in the context of a volunteer driven conference.

Jacob
From andy at reportlab.com  Tue Apr 12 20:26:31 2005
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Tue Apr 12 20:26:32 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <2mvf6scp15.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKIENGCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>

> Jacob, I guess.

I'll wait to hear if Jacob agrees, and then send 
an email introducing them.

Thanks,

Andy
From jacob at strakt.com  Tue Apr 12 20:30:32 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Tue Apr 12 20:30:51 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKIENGCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
References: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKIENGCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
Message-ID: <200504122030.33055.jacob@strakt.com>

tisdag 12 april 2005 20.26 skrev Andy Robinson:
> > Jacob, I guess.
>
> I'll wait to hear if Jacob agrees, and then send
> an email introducing them.

I agree.

Jacob
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Apr 13 00:41:16 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Wed Apr 13 00:42:08 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <425C0E25.4070407@infrae.com>
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se> <425C0E25.4070407@infrae.com>
Message-ID: <425C4E8C.40309@ita.chalmers.se>

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
> Others already pointed you to 'import this'.

I think I am very thickheaded - I don't get the 'import this' thing. 
sorry :-)

> "Pythonic" is vague, but not necessarily that much more vague than words 
> like "intelligence" or "life", which, when you try to actually define 
> them, tend to be slippery.
> 
> Over time, a lot of idioms and ideas arose in the Python community about 
> what the right way to use Python is, and also what would be a wrong way. 
> Idioms frequently cannot be ported straight from another language, as 
> they look odd or cumbersome. Frameworks should also not get in the way 
> of writing Python code.
> 

So, I re-read Magnus' mail and looked again at the links he offered. 
After reading your mail I think I understand what "pythonic" is and why 
I had a hard time understanding the term from the begining.

I believe, if I understand you correctly, that something is Pythonic 
when it has a sense of quality, simplicity, clarity and elegance about it.

This is of course not only limited to python, but I get the point that 
i.e. Zope does not always fit the shoe, at least not from some perspectives.

I guess this is true of all things; in fact I know it is - "pythonicity" 
is a pattern or sorts, or an attitude perhaps, and I guess we all use it 
and judge things by it in one way or another.

Wether or not you view something as being pythonic or not will, like 
Martinj in a way suggested, depend on the particular point of view you 
have or take.

Thanks Magnus and Martinj.

Sincerely,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Apr 13 01:09:27 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Wed Apr 13 01:10:08 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <425C4E8C.40309@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se> <425C0E25.4070407@infrae.com>
	<425C4E8C.40309@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <425C5527.7040202@ita.chalmers.se>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
>>
>> Others already pointed you to 'import this'.
> 
> 
> I think I am very thickheaded - I don't get the 'import this' thing. 
> sorry :-)

well... i get it now. I need to stop reading and responding to mails 
like this one so late at night. I totally missed the "typing" part from 
Magnus' letter... :-P

You are very welcome to laugh at me, I deserve it :)

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 09:01:32 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Wed Apr 13 09:01:35 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKIENGCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
References: <2mvf6scp15.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKIENGCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d050413000127616c34@mail.gmail.com>

Andy,
 do I understand correctly that you have or are going to send an 
introduction to Mr. Pemberton?
 That is good news than, just want to be sure that I did understand 
correctly.
 Harald


 On 4/12/05, Andy Robinson <andy@reportlab.com> wrote: 
> 
> > Jacob, I guess.
> 
> I'll wait to hear if Jacob agrees, and then send
> an email introducing them.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Andy
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 
> 


-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Apr 13 09:04:09 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Wed Apr 13 09:04:51 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Marketing plan
Message-ID: <425CC469.9010206@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> As promised, I have made a plan for the marketing. Comments and additions are 
> very welcome.
> 
<snip>

Hi, do we have any material from last year we can reuse or use as
inspiration?

Thanks,

/dario


-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From andy at reportlab.com  Wed Apr 13 09:07:03 2005
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Wed Apr 13 09:07:04 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d050413000127616c34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKGENNCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>

I already sent him one last night, and copied Jacob since I
have no formal role here.

I'll be offline most of today but will tell you all when I hear
anything.

I presume the web site is correct and his would be the Tuesday
18:00 keynote?

- Andy
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Harald Armin Massa [mailto:haraldarminmassa@gmail.com]
  Sent: 13 April 2005 08:02
  To: Andy Robinson
  Cc: Michael Hudson; Europython List
  Subject: Re: [EuroPython] KeyNoters


  Andy,

  do I understand correctly that you have or are going to send an
introduction to Mr. Pemberton?

  That is good news than, just want to be sure that I did understand
correctly.

  Harald



  On 4/12/05, Andy Robinson <andy@reportlab.com> wrote:
    > Jacob, I guess.

    I'll wait to hear if Jacob agrees, and then send
    an email introducing them.

    Thanks,

    Andy
    _______________________________________________
    EuroPython mailing list
    EuroPython@python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython





  --
  GHUM Harald Massa
  persuasion python postgresql
  Harald Armin Massa
  Reinsburgstra?e 202b
  70197 Stuttgart
  0173/9409607
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From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Apr 13 01:22:38 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Wed Apr 13 10:25:03 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Sponsorsagrement
Message-ID: <425C583E.3070904@ita.chalmers.se>

hi,

I tried to check the website but it is down at the moment.

Here is the text from last years call for sponsors:

Can we reuse it as it is? If so I'll go forward and send it to potential 
sponsors tomorrow.

---<begin>--

EPC 2005
--------

Trade show and becoming a sponsor

    1. You can have a small space for free. This includes a desk, a 
chair and 2 meters of wall space. You get one electric outlet (same 
standard as in Germany, the Netherlands etc) and access to the wireless 
network. You are not insured by the conference. At least one member of 
your organisation must be attending the conference, but you may staff 
your booth with non attendees.

    2. You are required to keep your booth manned during the "trade 
show". This will take place for a period of 6 hours. Lunch break, 
afternoon session and an hour or so after the end of the conference day 
on Tuesday 8 June is what is preliminarily planned. You can have your 
booth up manned or unmanned the rest of the time - it is up to each 
company to decide.

    3. You can rent your own seminar room at 100 Euro per hour for 
demonstrations, private seminars, job interviews etc. (Evening hours 
cost more. Ask for an offer.)

    4. You can rent more space and equipment on the show floor. Prices 
are close to "at cost". Contact Europython for an offer.

    5. You can become a sponsor of the conference. The following options 
are available:

           * Gold sponsor - 2000 Euro
             This gives you:
                 o Your name/link on the website
                 o An ad in the conference program
                 o A streamer in each conference room
                 o A streamer in the entrance
                 o A 15 minute talk before one of the keynotes

           * Sponsor - 500 Euro
             This gives you:
                 o Your name/link on the website
                 o An ad in the conference program
                 o A streamer in each conference room

           * Advertiser - 100 Euro
             This gives you:
                 o Your name/link on the website
                 o An ad in the conference program

           * Organising sponsor - At least 5 man days of work effort
                 o Your name/link on the website
                 o An ad in the conference program
                 o A streamer in the entrance
                 o A seminar room for 2 hours
                 o Double exhibition space for free

           * Special sponsor - Negotiable
             If you have an offer which is of mutual benefit, we are 
ready to hear it. Please contact the Europython organisers.

    6. If you want to put on a special event, please contact the 
Europython organisers

    7. For planning purposes we need your decision to participate no 
later than 15 May 2004. Any participants joining after this date will be 
invoiced an administrative fee of 100 Euro, if they can be accomodated.


---<end>--

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From faassen at infrae.com  Wed Apr 13 12:54:25 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed Apr 13 12:54:28 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <425C4E8C.40309@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se> <425C0E25.4070407@infrae.com>
	<425C4E8C.40309@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <425CFA61.1070104@infrae.com>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
>> Others already pointed you to 'import this'.
> 
> I think I am very thickheaded - I don't get the 'import this' thing. 
> sorry :-)

Start up the Python prompt, and type 'import this'. Then see what happens.

[snip]

> I believe, if I understand you correctly, that something is Pythonic 
> when it has a sense of quality, simplicity, clarity and elegance about it.

Though these things are subjective as well, so yes, these things, the 
Python idiomatic way (which itself is an evolving concept).

> This is of course not only limited to python, but I get the point that 
> i.e. Zope does not always fit the shoe, at least not from some 
> perspectives.

Zope 2 definitely doesn't always fit that shoe, though (with effort) it 
is possible to write reasonably modern "Pythonic" code that still fits 
within the Zope framework. Mostly the trick is not to use the framework 
but to write plain Python code when you can get away with it. I think I 
can do that, but it is the result of a lot of experience and an 
experienced Python programmer new to Zope 2 will not know how to do it.

In Zope 3, a lot of effort was taken to allow the integration of 
Pythonic code. Zope 3's codebase itself is also a lot more modern 
Python, so could qualify as "Pythonic" as well. Unfortunately turn-offs 
for Python developers new to Zope 3 are ZCML and the sheer magnitude of 
the framework and the amount of new concepts involved. I believe 
something like ZCML is necessary, but it being an XML glue language, 
it's automatically not perceived as very Pythonic at first impression. 
The magnitude of the framework and new concepts involved is, at least in 
part, a problem for any large framework, not just Zope.

Note that Five is an attempt to bring some of the 'increased 
Pythonicness' (the ability to "just write Python code" without worrying 
about lots of Zope specific things) from Zope 3 to Zope 2.

> I guess this is true of all things; in fact I know it is - "pythonicity" 
> is a pattern or sorts, or an attitude perhaps, and I guess we all use it 
> and judge things by it in one way or another.
> 
> Wether or not you view something as being pythonic or not will, like 
> Martinj in a way suggested, depend on the particular point of view you 
> have or take.

Yes. "this is (not) Pythonic" is therefore of limited use in any 
argument if the other guy doesn't agree, but quite important if the 
other guy *does* agree. :)

> Thanks Magnus and Martinj.

Martijn; an interesting displacement of the 'j' there. :)

Regards,

Martijn
From mwh at python.net  Wed Apr 13 13:34:18 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 13 13:40:28 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <425CFA61.1070104@infrae.com> (Martijn Faassen's message of
	"Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:54:25 +0200")
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se> <425C0E25.4070407@infrae.com>
	<425C4E8C.40309@ita.chalmers.se> <425CFA61.1070104@infrae.com>
Message-ID: <2my8bmc3lx.fsf@starship.python.net>

Martijn Faassen <faassen@infrae.com> writes:

> In Zope 3, a lot of effort was taken to allow the integration of
> Pythonic code. Zope 3's codebase itself is also a lot more modern
> Python, so could qualify as "Pythonic" as well. Unfortunately
> turn-offs for Python developers new to Zope 3 are ZCML 

Bloody hell yes.

> and the sheer magnitude of the framework and the amount of new
> concepts involved. I believe something like ZCML is necessary, 

That something like ZCML is necessary to deploy large systems I'm not
prepared to dispute, but that it (seems to be?  currently?) is
necessary to do even toy development with zope 3 is a serious turn
off.

When I got to the point in the Zope 3 Book where it says "simply type
these 70 lines of XML into browser/configure.zcml" I might have thrown
it out of the window if I wasn't reading it in PDF :)

Shane Hathaway put it very neatly in:

    http://hathawaymix.org/Weblog/2005-01-26

(especially his comment).

I guess this is known, and Zope 3 will get there in the end.

Cheers,
mwh
(who looked hard at Zope 3 for the first time this week).

-- 
  (Unfortunately, while you get Tom Baker saying "then we 
   were attacked by monsters", he doesn't flash and make 
  "neeeeooww-sploot" noises.)
      -- Gareth Marlow, ucam.chat, from Owen Dunn's review of the year
From faassen at infrae.com  Wed Apr 13 14:22:45 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed Apr 13 14:19:56 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <2my8bmc3lx.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se>
	<425C0E25.4070407@infrae.com>	<425C4E8C.40309@ita.chalmers.se>
	<425CFA61.1070104@infrae.com> <2my8bmc3lx.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <425D0F15.8050704@infrae.com>

Michael Hudson wrote:
> Martijn Faassen <faassen@infrae.com> writes:
> 
>>In Zope 3, a lot of effort was taken to allow the integration of
>>Pythonic code. Zope 3's codebase itself is also a lot more modern
>>Python, so could qualify as "Pythonic" as well. Unfortunately
>>turn-offs for Python developers new to Zope 3 are ZCML 
> 
> Bloody hell yes.
>  
>>and the sheer magnitude of the framework and the amount of new
>>concepts involved. I believe something like ZCML is necessary,  

> That something like ZCML is necessary to deploy large systems I'm not
> prepared to dispute, but that it (seems to be?  currently?) is
> necessary to do even toy development with zope 3 is a serious turn
> off.

Agreed -- there has been some work on a bobo for Zope 3 that might fix 
this. I haven't checked it out myself, but it might be fun to experiment 
with this to see how far we can take this.

One main problem with Zope 3 right now is that the initial learning 
curve to get a "Hello world" going is too big; too much framework stuff 
needs to be done, even though the framework stuff *is* separated out 
from the Python code.

> When I got to the point in the Zope 3 Book where it says "simply type
> these 70 lines of XML into browser/configure.zcml" I might have thrown
> it out of the window if I wasn't reading it in PDF :)

Heh, I can imagine that. It's also not didactically correct; the minimal 
amount of ZCML needed to get *something* going can be cut down to, I 
think, 4 or 5 lines. :)

> Shane Hathaway put it very neatly in:
> 
>     http://hathawaymix.org/Weblog/2005-01-26
> 
> (especially his comment).
> 
> I guess this is known, and Zope 3 will get there in the end.

Repeating this can't hurt at all; I believe it certainly won't hurt 
anything if the core developers get signals like this more often.

Regards,

Martijn
From mwh at python.net  Wed Apr 13 14:36:56 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 13 14:36:57 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <425D0F15.8050704@infrae.com> (Martijn Faassen's message of
	"Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:22:45 +0200")
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se> <425C0E25.4070407@infrae.com>
	<425C4E8C.40309@ita.chalmers.se> <425CFA61.1070104@infrae.com>
	<2my8bmc3lx.fsf@starship.python.net> <425D0F15.8050704@infrae.com>
Message-ID: <2mpswyc0pj.fsf@starship.python.net>

strange place to be having this conversation...

Martijn Faassen <faassen@infrae.com> writes:

> Michael Hudson wrote:
>> Martijn Faassen <faassen@infrae.com> writes:
>> 
>>>In Zope 3, a lot of effort was taken to allow the integration of
>>>Pythonic code. Zope 3's codebase itself is also a lot more modern
>>>Python, so could qualify as "Pythonic" as well. Unfortunately
>>> turn-offs for Python developers new to Zope 3 are ZCML 
>> Bloody hell yes.
>>  
>>>and the sheer magnitude of the framework and the amount of new
>>> concepts involved. I believe something like ZCML is necessary,  
>
>> That something like ZCML is necessary to deploy large systems I'm not
>> prepared to dispute, but that it (seems to be?  currently?) is
>> necessary to do even toy development with zope 3 is a serious turn
>> off.
>
> Agreed -- there has been some work on a bobo for Zope 3 that might
> fix this. I haven't checked it out myself, but it might be fun to
> experiment with this to see how far we can take this.

Is this the jim-bobo branch?  Seems fairly quiet...

> One main problem with Zope 3 right now is that the initial learning
> curve to get a "Hello world" going is too big; 

Yes.  Hardly "instant gratification"...

> too much framework stuff needs to be done, even though the framework
> stuff *is* separated out from the Python code.
>
>> When I got to the point in the Zope 3 Book where it says "simply type
>> these 70 lines of XML into browser/configure.zcml" I might have thrown
>> it out of the window if I wasn't reading it in PDF :)
>
> Heh, I can imagine that. It's also not didactically correct; the
> minimal amount of ZCML needed to get *something* going can be cut down
> to, I think, 4 or 5 lines. :)

Oh!

>> Shane Hathaway put it very neatly in:
>>     http://hathawaymix.org/Weblog/2005-01-26
>> (especially his comment).
>> I guess this is known, and Zope 3 will get there in the end.
>
> Repeating this can't hurt at all; I believe it certainly won't hurt
> anything if the core developers get signals like this more often.

Well, I'm currently lurking on zope3-users & -dev (via gmane).  Not
sure I have the energy to dive in right now...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  But maybe I've just programmed in enough different languages to
  assume that they are, in fact, different.
     -- Tony J Ibbs explains why Python isn't Java on comp.lang.python
From stephan.richter at tufts.edu  Wed Apr 13 14:55:31 2005
From: stephan.richter at tufts.edu (Stephan Richter)
Date: Wed Apr 13 14:55:36 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <2my8bmc3lx.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se> <425CFA61.1070104@infrae.com>
	<2my8bmc3lx.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <200504130855.31526.stephan.richter@tufts.edu>

On Wednesday 13 April 2005 07:34, Michael Hudson wrote:
> That something like ZCML is necessary to deploy large systems I'm not
> prepared to dispute, but that it (seems to be? ?currently?) is
> necessary to do even toy development with zope 3 is a serious turn
> off.
>
> When I got to the point in the Zope 3 Book where it says "simply type
> these 70 lines of XML into browser/configure.zcml" I might have thrown
> it out of the window if I wasn't reading it in PDF :):)

Once you will develop longer with Zope 3 you will understand the reasons 
better. Once you do configuration in Python it becomes *much* harder to 
exchange components and being able to switch out components is considered 
very pythonic. ;-) So you have to decide which one the lesser evil is. On the 
other hand, Jim has gradually worked on simplifying the usage of ZCML.

> Shane Hathaway put it very neatly in:
>
> ? ? http://hathawaymix.org/Weblog/2005-01-26
>
> (especially his comment).

But Shane was disputed by two people, Jim and Gary, intensively working on and 
with Zope 3. You should consider their points carefully. Also note that Jim 
is working on a new Bobo with which you will be able to write applications 
much like Shane suggested; but it is a simplification and does not cover all 
our use cases.

ZCML allows Python code to be simple. That means of course that ZCML will have 
a lot of the complexity that used to be in Python. If we make ZCML simpler, 
we will simply shift complexity back to Python. I guess eventually we will 
find the right balance between the two. Personally, I have always argued that 
ZCML helps people understand on what's going on. I can just look at the 
interfaces and the ZCML and I can see exactly how the frameworks fit and work 
together.

Regards,
Stephan
-- 
Stephan Richter
CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student)
Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training
From andy at reportlab.com  Wed Apr 13 15:08:24 2005
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Wed Apr 13 15:09:05 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d050413000127616c34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKOEOFCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>

I did, and he just said "yes"!  Jacob was copied
and introduced as the 'chairperson'.  I'll try
to get a draft title out of him, and let him know of
the list's existence in case he wants to know more
or chat to everyone.

thanks,

Andy
  -----Original Message-----
  From: europython-bounces@python.org
[mailto:europython-bounces@python.org]On Behalf Of Harald Armin Massa
  Sent: 13 April 2005 08:02
  To: Andy Robinson
  Cc: Michael Hudson; Europython List
  Subject: Re: [EuroPython] KeyNoters


  Andy,

  do I understand correctly that you have or are going to send an
introduction to Mr. Pemberton?

  That is good news than, just want to be sure that I did understand
correctly.

  Harald



  On 4/12/05, Andy Robinson <andy@reportlab.com> wrote:
    > Jacob, I guess.

    I'll wait to hear if Jacob agrees, and then send
    an email introducing them.

    Thanks,

    Andy
    _______________________________________________
    EuroPython mailing list
    EuroPython@python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython





  --
  GHUM Harald Massa
  persuasion python postgresql
  Harald Armin Massa
  Reinsburgstra?e 202b
  70197 Stuttgart
  0173/9409607
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From mwh at python.net  Wed Apr 13 15:12:05 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 13 15:12:08 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <200504130855.31526.stephan.richter@tufts.edu> (Stephan
	Richter's message of "Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:55:31 -0400")
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se> <425CFA61.1070104@infrae.com>
	<2my8bmc3lx.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<200504130855.31526.stephan.richter@tufts.edu>
Message-ID: <2mll7mbz2y.fsf@starship.python.net>

Stephan Richter <stephan.richter@tufts.edu> writes:

> On Wednesday 13 April 2005 07:34, Michael Hudson wrote:
>> That something like ZCML is necessary to deploy large systems I'm not
>> prepared to dispute, but that it (seems to be? ?currently?) is
>> necessary to do even toy development with zope 3 is a serious turn
>> off.
>>
>> When I got to the point in the Zope 3 Book where it says "simply type
>> these 70 lines of XML into browser/configure.zcml" I might have thrown
>> it out of the window if I wasn't reading it in PDF :):)
>
> Once you will develop longer with Zope 3

Also, "*if* I develop longer with Zope 3"...

> you will understand the reasons better. Once you do configuration in
> Python it becomes *much* harder to exchange components and being
> able to switch out components is considered very pythonic. ;-) 

But, from my, probably ignorant, POV I'm not doing any configuration!
I just have my silly web-app idea I want to implement to get a feel of
what Zope 3 is like.

> So you have to decide which one the lesser evil is. On the other
> hand, Jim has gradually worked on simplifying the usage of ZCML.

Yes, it seems that way.

>> Shane Hathaway put it very neatly in:
>>
>> ? ? http://hathawaymix.org/Weblog/2005-01-26
>>
>> (especially his comment).
>
> But Shane was disputed by two people, Jim and Gary, intensively
> working on and with Zope 3.

Uh, I wouldn't say their comments disputed Shane, particularly.

> You should consider their points carefully. Also note that Jim is
> working on a new Bobo with which you will be able to write
> applications much like Shane suggested; but it is a simplification
> and does not cover all our use cases.

Of course.  I'm not saying ZCML should be scrapped or anything like
that.

> ZCML allows Python code to be simple. That means of course that ZCML
> will have a lot of the complexity that used to be in Python. If we
> make ZCML simpler, we will simply shift complexity back to Python.

But, and I guess you've heard this point before, I know Python really
very well already.

> I guess eventually we will find the right balance between the
> two. Personally, I have always argued that ZCML helps people
> understand on what's going on. I can just look at the interfaces and
> the ZCML and I can see exactly how the frameworks fit and work
> together.

I *think* I'm griping more about browser/configure.zcml more than
./configure.zcml.  This might be part of the reason for my reaction:

$ cd messageboard/step01/browser/
$ grep -c messageboard configure.zcml 
12

I'll get there, with sufficent determination.  But getting off the
ground isn't totally trivial.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Also, remember to put the galaxy back when you've finished, or an
  angry mob of astronomers will come round and kneecap you with a
  small telescope for littering. 
       -- Simon Tatham, ucam.chat, from Owen Dunn's review of the year
From bea at webwitches.com  Wed Apr 13 15:26:30 2005
From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine)
Date: Wed Apr 13 15:25:10 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKOEOFCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
References: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKOEOFCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>
Message-ID: <1113398788.8641.261.camel@ogg.webwitches.com>

On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 15:08, Andy Robinson wrote:
> I did, and he just said "yes"!  Jacob was copied 
> and introduced as the 'chairperson'.  I'll try
> to get a draft title out of him, and let him know of
> the list's existence in case he wants to know more
> or chat to everyone.

Well done! I looked at his web page and he looks like a lot of thought
and a lot of fun. For anyone interested in foreign languages, his
diatribe on Dutch spelling ('An Englishman's Difficulties with the
Dutch') is extremely entertaining. If he is equally informative and
witty in front of a large crowd, we may be in for a treat (again!).

-- 
bea@webwitches.com
"I will, as we say in rock 'n' roll, run until the wheels come off, 
because I love what I do." -- David Crosby

From asouzaleite at gmx.de  Wed Apr 13 15:48:40 2005
From: asouzaleite at gmx.de (Aroldo Souza-Leite)
Date: Wed Apr 13 15:45:49 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <425CFA61.1070104@infrae.com>
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se> <425C0E25.4070407@infrae.com>
	<425C4E8C.40309@ita.chalmers.se>  <425CFA61.1070104@infrae.com>
Message-ID: <1113400120.2345.46.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hi Martijn,

having just *imported this*, I suddenly remember that you owe me a
sonnet - the sonnet form being arguably the most pythonic of all
established European verse forms. I beg your leave to kindly remind you
that last year in G?teborg you promised to write the next one of the
"Sonnets from Pythia", after Steve Alexander's "A Common Gateway" (which
by the way has already been published by the Springer Verlag as the main
part of some sort of sofware book now I can't remember what it is about,
googable by "ISBN 3540223592"). 
I'm sending a copy of this mail to the EuroPython list because the
project "Sonnets from Pythia" happens to be an offical EuroPython
cultural project I am coordinating, approved on last year's conference
in the presence of both The Benevolent Dictator and The Pope by
unanimous public acclamation. As a trained sonnet writer, I can offer
you (or any further volonteers) my humble services to coach you in
writing your sonnet in pythonically impeccable iambic pentameters - but
I suspect you won't need much help there. Anyway, we can go through the
technical details on our private mail channel from now on.

Cheers.

Aroldo.




Am Mittwoch, den 13.04.2005, 12:54 +0200 schrieb Martijn Faassen:
> Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> > Martijn Faassen wrote:
> > 
> >> Others already pointed you to 'import this'.
> > 
> > I think I am very thickheaded - I don't get the 'import this' thing. 
> > sorry :-)
> 
> Start up the Python prompt, and type 'import this'. Then see what happens.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > I believe, if I understand you correctly, that something is Pythonic 
> > when it has a sense of quality, simplicity, clarity and elegance about it.
> 
> Though these things are subjective as well, so yes, these things, the 
> Python idiomatic way (which itself is an evolving concept).
> 
> > This is of course not only limited to python, but I get the point that 
> > i.e. Zope does not always fit the shoe, at least not from some 
> > perspectives.
> 
> Zope 2 definitely doesn't always fit that shoe, though (with effort) it 
> is possible to write reasonably modern "Pythonic" code that still fits 
> within the Zope framework. Mostly the trick is not to use the framework 
> but to write plain Python code when you can get away with it. I think I 
> can do that, but it is the result of a lot of experience and an 
> experienced Python programmer new to Zope 2 will not know how to do it.
> 
> In Zope 3, a lot of effort was taken to allow the integration of 
> Pythonic code. Zope 3's codebase itself is also a lot more modern 
> Python, so could qualify as "Pythonic" as well. Unfortunately turn-offs 
> for Python developers new to Zope 3 are ZCML and the sheer magnitude of 
> the framework and the amount of new concepts involved. I believe 
> something like ZCML is necessary, but it being an XML glue language, 
> it's automatically not perceived as very Pythonic at first impression. 
> The magnitude of the framework and new concepts involved is, at least in 
> part, a problem for any large framework, not just Zope.
> 
> Note that Five is an attempt to bring some of the 'increased 
> Pythonicness' (the ability to "just write Python code" without worrying 
> about lots of Zope specific things) from Zope 3 to Zope 2.
> 
> > I guess this is true of all things; in fact I know it is - "pythonicity" 
> > is a pattern or sorts, or an attitude perhaps, and I guess we all use it 
> > and judge things by it in one way or another.
> > 
> > Wether or not you view something as being pythonic or not will, like 
> > Martinj in a way suggested, depend on the particular point of view you 
> > have or take.
> 
> Yes. "this is (not) Pythonic" is therefore of limited use in any 
> argument if the other guy doesn't agree, but quite important if the 
> other guy *does* agree. :)
> 
> > Thanks Magnus and Martinj.
> 
> Martijn; an interesting displacement of the 'j' there. :)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martijn
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 
-- 
Aroldo Souza-Leite <asouzaleite@gmx.de>
mitcon GmbH

From andy at reportlab.com  Wed Apr 13 15:48:36 2005
From: andy at reportlab.com (Andy Robinson)
Date: Wed Apr 13 15:49:33 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KeyNoters
In-Reply-To: <1113398788.8641.261.camel@ogg.webwitches.com>
Message-ID: <OFEEIFGBPBMAIHKGNAJKCEOKCJAA.andy@reportlab.com>

> Well done! I looked at his web page and he looks like a lot of thought
> and a lot of fun. For anyone interested in foreign languages, his
> diatribe on Dutch spelling ('An Englishman's Difficulties with the
> Dutch') is extremely entertaining. If he is equally informative and
> witty in front of a large crowd, we may be in for a treat (again!).

Never saw that - great essay!  And yes, he was very good in front
of a crowd.

- Andy
From magnus at thinkware.se  Wed Apr 13 18:51:33 2005
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka)
Date: Wed Apr 13 18:51:42 2005
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBXaGF0IHRoZSBoZWNrIGRvZXMgInB5dGhvbmljIiBtZWFuPw==?=
Message-ID: <think001_425d01bb9e84f@webmail.thinkware.se>

> I believe, if I understand you correctly, that something is Pythonic 
> when it has a sense of quality, simplicity, clarity and elegance about it.

I guess it's a bit like sitting down in your favourite armchair
just to realize that this isn't actually your chair. It's been 
replaced by something that feels different. You'll probably have
to think a bit before you can tell how it's different, but you 
might well have felt the difference immediately--or it might be
something just just felt strange after some time, becoming more and
more bothersome with time.

For a long time Python programmer, most new Python libraries have
a lot of commonalities with things she's already done, and it's
usually quick to find her way in them, and understand the concepts.
Of course, they might cover a problem domain which is new and 
different, but anyway, they feel familiar.

Some don't, and I guess they tend to get the label unpythonic.
They might be very useful, but they don't fit so well into the
Python world. One concrete example in Zope 2 is extension classes,
which was a foundation for the persistence mechanism in ZODB.
While useful, they did magic thing under the hood which for instance
made pyChecker puke. Zope also did magic things in the imports
that were a bit bewildering. 

Python is a bit different in this respect from many other programming
languages, such as Perl--where the motto is "there's more than one way
to do it", or Tcl--which has such a rudimentary syntax that it's 
common practice to more or less create a new syntax for every new 
problem domain.

This is also supported by the fact that you get a lot more Google hits
for "Pythonic programming" than you get for "Javaesque programming" or
"Perlish programming" or "Tclish Programming" etc. Python code seems
to be distinctive in having a particular character, and the Python
community seems to have a lot less Cowboy Programmers than most other
languages. If you hate to conform to standards, you won't like Python
I guess. Maybe the significant indentation serves as a kind of EQ test?

I think this feeling of quickly feeling at home in new code is an
important part of Python's usefulness. See e.g. Eric Raymond's
LJ article: http://www2.linuxjournal.com/article/3882

"... That was my first surprise. My second came a couple of hours into the project, when I noticed (allowing for pauses needed to look up new features in Programming Python) I was generating working code nearly as fast as I could type. When I realized this, I was quite startled. An important measure of effort in coding is the frequency with which you write something that doesn't actually match your mental representation of the problem, and have to backtrack on realizing that what you just typed won't actually tell the language to do what you're thinking. An important measure of good language design is how rapidly the percentage of missteps of this kind falls as you gain experience with the language.

When you're writing working code nearly as fast as you can type and your misstep rate is near zero, it generally means you've achieved mastery of the language. But that didn't make sense, because it was still day one and I was regularly pausing to look up new language and library features!

This was my first clue that, in Python, I was actually dealing with an exceptionally good design. Most languages have so much friction and awkwardness built into their design that you learn most of their feature set long before your misstep rate drops anywhere near zero. Python was the first general-purpose language I'd ever used that reversed this process."

What Eric talks about here is to a large degree an aspect of the core
language, but this useful feeling of familarity gets even bigger if
libraries and frameworks build on established Python concepts and
habits.

I.e. if you wrap C++ iterators, a Python programmer will want to be
able to write:

for x in x_list:
    do_something(x)

For someone who is thinking in C++, it will be natural to expose
the C++ iterators more thinly, and you'll probably end up writing:

pos = x_list.first()
while pos != x_list.end():
    x = pos.deref()
    do_something(x)
    pos.incr()

The programmer who writes this wrapper will probably complain that
Python lacks "real" for loops and ++ operator. The python programmer
who uses this code won't be very happy, and if he makes a pos.incr()
followed by pos.deref() without checking x_list.end() first, he'll
probably get a segmentation error, which is very unpythonic!

The C++ programmer will complain that the Python programmer is stupid
not to check his boundry conditions, and the Python programmer will 
complain that the C++ programmer is stupid who forces him to bother
with details that have nothing to do with the problem domain...

Other examples of unpythonic things brought from people used to
other languages is to worry about typing in a way that just makes
the code more brittle and less usable.

-- 
Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB
http://www.thinkware.se/  mailto:magnus@thinkware.se
From faassen at infrae.com  Wed Apr 13 20:27:03 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed Apr 13 20:24:13 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] What the heck does "pythonic" mean?
In-Reply-To: <1113400120.2345.46.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <425ADD84.60206@ita.chalmers.se>
	<425C0E25.4070407@infrae.com>	<425C4E8C.40309@ita.chalmers.se>
	<425CFA61.1070104@infrae.com>
	<1113400120.2345.46.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <425D6477.5090609@infrae.com>

Aroldo Souza-Leite wrote:
> having just *imported this*, I suddenly remember that you owe me a 
> sonnet - the sonnet form being arguably the most pythonic of all 
> established European verse forms. I beg your leave to kindly remind
> you that last year in G?teborg you promised to write the next one of
> the "Sonnets from Pythia", after Steve Alexander's "A Common Gateway"

I don't recall making any such promise; I missed your lightning talk
unfortunately, so I wasn't even *there*. :) Are you sure you aren't
confusing me with someone else, or are you just using a devious trick to
try to get me writing a sonnet? :) Writing sonnets is hard work...

> (which by the way has already been published by the Springer Verlag
> as the main part of some sort of sofware book now I can't remember
> what it is about, googable by "ISBN 3540223592").

I don't recall the book either, nor that Phillip von Weitershausen wrote
it. :)

> I'm sending a copy of this mail to the EuroPython list because the 
> project "Sonnets from Pythia" happens to be an offical EuroPython 
> cultural project I am coordinating, approved on last year's
> conference in the presence of both The Benevolent Dictator and The
> Pope by unanimous public acclamation. As a trained sonnet writer, I
> can offer you (or any further volonteers) my humble services to coach
> you in writing your sonnet in pythonically impeccable iambic
> pentameters - but I suspect you won't need much help there. Anyway,
> we can go through the technical details on our private mail channel
> from now on.

I know to write the sonnet iambic
is hard, so though, for hackers like myself
the topic software thought unpoetic
I cannot even rhyme for real with -self

Regards,

Martijn
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Apr 13 06:29:31 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Apr 14 00:51:03 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Suggestion of text for sponsors and exhibitors
Message-ID: <425CA02B.9040000@ita.chalmers.se>

[resending this with another, non-spam, subject line and slightly edited]

hi,

I tried to check the website but it is down at the moment.

[I checked and as far as I can see, there are no sponsoship texts on the 
site]

Below is the text from last years call for sponsors, with some slight 
additions.

Can we reuse it as it is? Jacob, would this fit into budget - ie 
exhbitors get their space for free; is this OK or should we charge them?

As soon as we settle on something, I'll go forward and send it to 
potential sponsors today.

/dario

---<begin>--

EPC 2005
--------

Trade show and becoming a sponsor and/or exhibitor:

Exhibitor
---------
    1. You can have a small space for free. This includes a desk, a
chair and 2 meters of wall space. You get one electric outlet (same
standard as in Germany, the Netherlands etc) and access to the wireless
network. You are not insured by the conference. At least one member of
your organisation must be attending the conference, but you may staff
your booth with non attendees.

    2. You are required to keep your booth manned during the "trade
show". This will take place for a period of 6 hours. You can have your
booth up manned or unmanned the rest of the time - it is up to each
company to decide.

    3. You can rent your own seminar room at 100 Euro per hour for
demonstrations, private seminars, job interviews etc. (Evening hours
cost more. Ask for an offer.)

    4. You can rent more space and equipment on the show floor. Prices
are close to "at cost". Contact Europython for an offer.

Sponsor
-------
    5. You can become a sponsor of the conference. The following options
are available:

           * Gold sponsor - 2000 Euro
             This gives you:
                 o Your name/link on the website
                 o An ad in the conference program
                 o A streamer in each conference room
                 o A streamer in the entrance
                 o A 15 minute talk before one of the keynotes

           * Sponsor - 500 Euro
             This gives you:
                 o Your name/link on the website
                 o An ad in the conference program
                 o A streamer in each conference room

           * Advertiser - 100 Euro
             This gives you:
                 o Your name/link on the website
                 o An ad in the conference program

           * Organising sponsor - At least 5 man days of work effort
                 o Your name/link on the website
                 o An ad in the conference program
                 o A streamer in the entrance
                 o A seminar room for 2 hours
                 o Double exhibition space for free

           * Special sponsor - Negotiable
             If you have an offer which is of mutual benefit, we are
ready to hear it. Please contact the Europython organisers.

Other arrangements
------------------
    6. If you want to put on a special event, please contact the
Europython organisers

Deadlines
---------
    7. For planning purposes we need your decision to participate no
later than 15 May 2004. Any participants joining after this date will be
invoiced an administrative fee of 100 Euro, if they can be accomodated.


---<end>--

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx

From ludl1 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 14 14:45:04 2005
From: ludl1 at hotmail.com (Fredrik Ludl)
Date: Thu Apr 14 14:45:07 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Do you need help of any kind?
Message-ID: <BAY22-F2269B745751D93A1ABF7C6EF350@phx.gbl>





Civ. Ing.
Fredrik Ludl
Parkgatan 1a
44230 Kung?lv
Sverige

_________________________________________________________________
L?ttare att hitta dr?mresan med MSN Resor http://www.msn.se/resor/

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Apr 14 16:01:13 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Apr 14 16:01:59 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Suggestion of text for sponsors and exhibitors
In-Reply-To: <425CA02B.9040000@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <425CA02B.9040000@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <425E77A9.20303@ita.chalmers.se>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> As soon as we settle on something, I'll go forward and send it to 
> potential sponsors today.
> 
> /dario
> 

I haven't heard anythng from anyone, so I'll add the following:

I want exhibitors to pay 250 Euros for the exhibition space.

The rest unchanged.

PLEASE speak up now if you think this is not good - I need to approach 
sponsors ASAP!

Jacob? Anyone?

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From andy at reportlab.com  Thu Apr 14 17:14:30 2005
From: andy at reportlab.com (andy@reportlab.com)
Date: Thu Apr 14 17:14:34 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Nokia to speak at Python-UK next week
Message-ID: <andyrobinson-0ViE6A7OFIOkMa3+L9VrFoQQEvhf3wx@mailblocks.com>

I am please to announce that Tapio Tallgren of Nokia Research
Labs is coming to Python-UK to talk about Python on the Nokia Series
60 phones.  If you want to get hands-on, upgrade that handset now!

This is a late addition to an already star-studded programme including
Greg Stein of Google, and many other key Python speakers and
projects.

Python-UK is part of the ACCU conference, Randolph Hotel,
Oxford, 21-23 April  (i.e. Thursday to Saturday next week).
There's still time to sign up and attend the event, in its entirety
or on a day by day basis!

   http://www.accu.org/conference/python.html


Best Regards,


Andy Robinson
Python-UK conference chair

From andy at reportlab.com  Thu Apr 14 17:20:05 2005
From: andy at reportlab.com (andy@reportlab.com)
Date: Thu Apr 14 17:20:11 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Recruiting speakers Python-UK -> Europython
Message-ID: <andyrobinson-0pSI6A8uFIOkvV5OO7cBEo11Fo+A1tY@mailblocks.com>

As you all know Python-UK is next week and i am finalizing some
details now.  It's a different kind of event (i.e. it costs real money,
which is beyond my control) but we have some good speakers and
(I hope) some delegates may also want to come to EuroPython.
Jacob will be there too.

It might be useful to bring over some fliers, improvise
a poster or something like that.  I know it's early in your
marketing.  Also, I can let Jacob say a few words at the
opening session, or do so myself.    Let me know if anything
else can be done to help EuroPython...

Best Regards

Andy Robinson
ReportLab Europe Ltd.

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Fri Apr 15 11:57:06 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?windows-1252?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Fri Apr 15 11:57:54 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Fwd: Artikle form swedish computer magasine]
Message-ID: <425F8FF2.3050203@ita.chalmers.se>

I plan to use the following as promotinal material. I can't use the 
text, because it is copyrighted material, but we can make references to ir.

This is a very rough translation. I cheated and used systran e-services
http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box , so the english is more like
"engrisch", but i did a quick correction of the most ambiguous parts...

Link to original URL:

http://computersweden.idg.se/ArticlePages/200504/14/20050414094118_CS341/20050414094118_CS341.dbp.asp?

/dario - goes back to panic-programming...

---<begin>---

Python, what a cool system
--------------------------
2005-04-15 03:00 Sometime you get impressed. I was on the Linux-expo in
Paris and went to a demonstration in order to learn more about Zope. It
is a grandiose framework for webbapplications, even for demanding ones.


Zope is open source code and has existed since the end of the nineties.
The scope of Zope is actually bigger than webapplications. It is
intended for systems for publication of items, of which webpages are a
special case. It also contains web services.

The most impressive subsystem was CPS, Collaborative Portal server. The
speaker initiated the section about CPS with that he intended to build a
webaaplication for managing conferences. It would handle speakers and
visitors, programmes, hotels and restaurants. Presskommuniques would be
disseminated with rss. The content must be editable in real time with
proper authentication and authorization control and in four languages.

Did I forget something? Yes, he was going to do this in a hour and
without programming a single line!

?Was there none to stop him? ?, exclaimed my colleague of many years
when I told about it. ?Will he take the bread from our mouths??`(swedish
saying, meaning "will he take our work from us"). Best to add that he
was joking.

And certainly, during a hour we could see the application to trnasgress
from thought to operational skeleton. CPS contains sophisticated
building blocks that make this possible. The graphical design was also
block like from the start. But with the addition of CPSSkins one could
without effort choose an entire different layout. Now it looked
[visually] designed, albeit not very original.

The is always a new level of productivity. An interesting thing with
Zope is that it is a very big system built entirely in Python. It should
not be possible to run such a big project as Zope as open source code.
Specially not with so big aspirations [goals]. It should be possible to
such a big system in a loosely typet language as Python. Or should it?
Sometimes, you may have to rethink some things.

The new generation of programming languages, as Python and Ruby, are
clearly rather more productive than Java or C#. The productivity for the
end user of a system is connected to the productivity of the programmer
that has developed the system, of that I am conviced.

Of: H?kan S?derstr?m
systems developer on S?derstr?m Programverkstad.
You can reach him on utvecklaren@idg.se.

---<end>---

/dario


-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From faassen at infrae.com  Fri Apr 15 15:59:23 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Fri Apr 15 15:56:17 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] talk submission deadlines?
Message-ID: <425FC8BB.30208@infrae.com>

Hi there,

Since I just complained about this being somewhat hard to find on 
another conference's website, I went to www.europython.org and didn't 
find it easily there.

I think the deadlines for talk/paper submission should be on the 
homepage, very visible. It should also be on 'propose a talk', which is 
a long page which this information visible nowhere. It should also be on 
the 'tracks & talks' page. :)

Regards,

Martijn


From jacob at strakt.com  Fri Apr 15 18:30:39 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Fri Apr 15 18:30:57 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Proxy for registration webserver
Message-ID: <200504151830.40018.jacob@strakt.com>

Since there are apparently people who can't reach high numbered ports,
I have set up a proxy for the registration server.

For a list of registered talks:
http://pbf.strakt.com/ep2005/list.chtml

For registering talks:
http://pbf.strakt.com/ep2005/presentation.chtml?conference=688

This has not been extensively tested, and I would be happy for a report from 
anyone who tries to register a talk, wether it fails or succeeds.

Jacob
From jacob at strakt.com  Sat Apr 16 05:19:59 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Sat Apr 16 05:20:02 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Help testing web
Message-ID: <200504160519.59661.jacob@strakt.com>

After a lovely 12 hour debugging session, I have a working procedure for 
registration and payments. I also think the proxying problem is fixed. There 
is still some cleanup to do, and the multiple payment handling is not 
implemented yet.

However, things are ready for a first round of testing on the test server.

I'm happy for the reporting of any problems you encounter, and any suggestions 
for how to improve the user experience.

Testing starts at http://www.python-in-business.org/test/. You can both test 
entering talks and registering for the conference.

You can also test updating talks/speaker info through
http://www.python-in-business.org/test/talkupdate?conference=Europython%202005

When you test credit card payment, the VISA number 4111111111111111, with any 
security code and expiry date should work.

Some things, I know are not ideal, but are not easy to change:

- I don't have a widget that makeswill allow people to put a number in front 
of T-shirt orders. Making one, or building the form from smaller building 
blocks would take more time than I have available to spend right now.

- There is an extra page to go through on the way to paying by credit card. 
This is necessary for the interfacing with our database. Jumping off-site in 
the same operation that we store things into the database causes problems.

One thing that I will try to change is the presentation of accomodation in the 
invoice/credit card summary. It now says 1 for number of items and a sum that 
is the product of price per night and number of nights. It should say number 
of nights for number of items and the per night figure.

There will also be more text on the invoices and a printable invoice after the 
credit card payment.

Jacob
From ivo at amaze.nl  Fri Apr 15 10:32:42 2005
From: ivo at amaze.nl (Ivo van der Wijk)
Date: Sun Apr 17 20:14:00 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Amaze sponsor banners
Message-ID: <425F7C2A.803@amaze.nl>

Hi All,

I don't know who is the right person to contact about banners on the website, so
I'll just bug all of you :)

Attached are two logo's for the europython.org website. Please make them point
to "www.amazesolutions.com"

Thanks,

	Ivo

PS: If any other formats are required (i.e. for print), please let me know.

-- 
Drs. I.R. van der Wijk                                      -=-
Korte Leidsedwarsstraat 12                                 Amaze
1017 RC Amsterdam, NL                                       -=-
T +31-20-4688336         F +31-20-4688337       Zope/Plone/Content Management
W http://www.amaze.nl    E info@amaze.nl           Open Source Solutions
W http://vanderwijk.info E ivo@amaze.nl                 Consultancy
PGP http://vanderwijk.info/pgp
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From jacob at strakt.com  Sat Apr 16 05:24:07 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Sun Apr 17 20:32:40 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] New URL for registration site
Message-ID: <200504160524.08059.jacob@strakt.com>

After a long battle with the proxying of the registration site, I think I have 
managed to get things working. However, it requires the use of a different 
URL than the one I sent out earlier today.

For a list of registered talks:
http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/list.chtml

For registering talks:
http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/presentation.chtml?conference=688

Jacob
From lists at mikael.jansson.be  Sun Apr 17 19:39:16 2005
From: lists at mikael.jansson.be (Mikael Jansson (mailing lists))
Date: Sun Apr 17 20:55:52 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Travel directions
Message-ID: <10227060081-BeMail@>

Hi,

I was asked to do improve on the travel directions, and now I've 
written a (very) short description on how to get to EP from central 
G?teborg using public transit, basically annotated photos.

http://dundermusen.mine.nu/dump/misc/ep2005/travel.html

Now, I hadn't actually read the existing description on the site, and 
when I actually did that just now, I realized that maybe a better goal 
for me would be to:
* Add photos where needed,
* Add more info on what to do in G?teborg when not conferencing (e.g., 
how to get to Avenyn from Chalmers).

What do you think?


Regards,
--
Mikael Jansson
http://mikael.jansson.be
From jacob at strakt.com  Tue Apr 19 02:10:00 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Tue Apr 19 02:10:19 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Meeting today, Tuesday 19 April + report
Message-ID: <200504190210.00857.jacob@strakt.com>

There is a meeting for Europython organisers today at 18.00 CET on the normal 
channel: #europython on the freenode IRC network.

This is mostly a meeting to follow upon the status of things.

We need to send out some PR this week. Deadline for refereed papers is 22 
April.

I have been working away at the registration, and I am almost done. I hope to 
have a testing session in conjunction with the meeting. If this doesn't 
uncover any horrible problems, we can go live with registration right after 
the meeting.

I'm fairly satisfied with the way that the registration works. There area few 
warts, and other people will probably find some illogical things and missing 
pieces of information once they test the stuff.

I would also like to have a discussion about what more we can do to improve 
the website.

Jacob
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Apr 19 07:58:59 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Apr 19 07:59:07 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Meeting today, Tuesday 19 April + report
In-Reply-To: <200504190210.00857.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200504190210.00857.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42649E23.6050100@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hallen wrote:

> 
> I would also like to have a discussion about what more we can do to improve 
> the website.


the singel one thing I am missing from the website is information. I 
amnot aware that there are any thecnicla problems, apart from the 
difficulties in obtaining information.

* ie: I just realised that on the page 
http://www.europython.org/sections/registration_issues/registration_informa

says at the top that registration opens second half of april, and at the 
bottom it says second half of march.

I will behappy to go in myself and correct things if I knew what was the 
correct dates. I assume that we now are talking second half of april...

* There still is no contact information.

* I suggest the followinng changes to the front page layout:

	- Move the who and why seciotns to the left, below the what. THese are 
really static and use up prime space on the page.

	- Move up the highlights to the place where who and why used to be.

	- remove one of the "image of the day" boxes (i'd say remove them 
altogether and blend them with the content instead, but whatever and 
replace it with a box listing the various dates we have (for 
ergistration, for talk submission, etc, etc).

Also, I'd like to get more than one (1) response (Harald was the only 
one to respond) to my call for comments on the sponsorship. If not, I 
will assume that no one had any objections to them and will go forward 
with them.

I specifically need Jakob to chime in on the sponsirng issue, because I 
need to know if the money fits in the budget or not.

Pretty please?

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From jmo at chalmers.se  Tue Apr 19 09:51:57 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Tue Apr 19 09:51:31 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Amaze sponsor banners
In-Reply-To: <425F7C2A.803@amaze.nl>
References: <425F7C2A.803@amaze.nl>
Message-ID: <4264B89D.2000206@chalmers.se>

Ivo van der Wijk wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>I don't know who is the right person to contact about banners on the website, so
>I'll just bug all of you :)
>
>Attached are two logo's for the europython.org website. Please make them point
>to "www.amazesolutions.com"
>
>Thanks,
>
>	Ivo
>
>PS: If any other formats are required (i.e. for print), please let me know.
>  
>


OK, the top banner is now online.

I converted it to PNG (went from 60K to 6K)

/JM
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Apr 19 16:15:40 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Apr 19 16:15:49 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Specs for printed ads in the programme
Message-ID: <4265128C.4030807@ita.chalmers.se>

Hi,

I need ASAP specs for the ads to be printed in the programme. Or rather 
- are we going to have a printed Programme?

I need to give this out to sponsors.

/dario
-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From jacob at strakt.com  Tue Apr 19 16:18:14 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Tue Apr 19 16:18:18 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Budget
Message-ID: <200504191618.14245.jacob@strakt.com>

Here is a budget for this years conference.

Dario, can you please check that the rental numbers are right
(50% of standard price, since we are after midsummer and 25% VAT on top of the 
list prices).

I'm in the middle of arranging flights for Guido, so I know fairly well what 
the cost of his flight will be. It's interesting that it costs 3 times as 
much to fly from the US to here than it does to fly from here to the US. 
Arlines are not commutative.

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From jacob at strakt.com  Tue Apr 19 17:04:36 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Tue Apr 19 17:04:40 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Specs for printed ads in the programme
In-Reply-To: <4265128C.4030807@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <4265128C.4030807@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <200504191704.36623.jacob@strakt.com>

On tisdag 19 april 2005 16:15, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I need ASAP specs for the ads to be printed in the programme. Or rather
> - are we going to have a printed Programme?
>
> I need to give this out to sponsors.

We will have a print-yourself program, just like last year. Ads for it should 
be 90 mm tall and 125 mm wide to be optimal. We can receive other sizes, but 
may have to scale or crop the ad to make it fit, with unknown consequences 
for resolution and outcome. Preferred formats are JPEG and PNG, though EPS, 
GIF, TIFF and some others will work as well. People can experiment 
themselves. I use OpenOffice to build the ad page, and then I export it as a 
pdf file.

We may be printing ads on the schedules as well, but I'm not promising this at 
the moment.

Jacob
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Apr 19 17:43:13 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Apr 19 18:24:23 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Text to appear on Webpage about sposoring
Message-ID: <42652711.3050701@ita.chalmers.se>

Hi,

FYI:

this is the text that I plan to put on the webpage, along with some 
thecnical data about ads, banners, programe details. The text is 
basically last year's with the addition of 250 Euro cost for exibition 
space.

This information is also going to go out to interested sponsors.

/dario

--<begin>--

The EuroPython Conference 2005 Invites Sponsors

	The EuroPython Conference is looking for interested companies to 
support and sponsor the EuroPython Conference of 2005. The EuroPython 
Conference is being run with the help of volunteers and we invite 
companies using Python or with interests in Python development to 
sponsor the event. Any contribution, no matter how small, is appreciated.

	You can support the EuroPython Conference by participating in the Trade 
Show or by becoming an Official EuroPython Sponsor. We can also offer 
customised solutions and are alwasy open to alternate solutions.

Trade Show
==========

	You can participate in the Trade Show. This means that you have access 
to a small space to promote your company. This includes the following:

	* a desk, a chair and 2 meters of wall space.
	* one electric outlet (same standard as in Germany, the Netherlands etc)
	* access to the wireless network.

	Requirements

		At least one member of your organisation must be attending the 
conference, but you may staff your booth with non attendees.

		You are required to keep your booth manned during the "trade show". 
This will take place for a period of 6 hours. Lunch break, afternoon 
session and an hour or so after the end of the conference day, depending 
on public interest.

		You can have your booth up manned or unmanned the rest of the time - 
it is up to each company to decide.

	Insurance

		You are not insured by the conference.

	Cost

		250 Euros, excluding conference attendance fees.


Sponsorhip Agreement
====================

You can become a sponsor of the conference. The following options are 
available:

	Gold sponsor
	
		o Your name/link on the website
		o An ad in the conference program
		o A streamer in each conference room
		o A streamer in the entrance
		o A 15 minute talk before one of the keynotes

		Cost: 2000 Euro
		
	Sponsor
	
		o Your name/link on the website
		o An ad in the conference program
		o A streamer in each conference room
		
		Cost: 500 Euro

	Advertiser
	
		o Your name/link on the website
		o An ad in the conference program
		
		Cost: 100 Euro

	Organising sponsor
	
		o Your name/link on the website
		o An ad in the conference program
		o A streamer in the entrance
		o A seminar room for 2 hours
		o Double exhibition space for free
		
		Cost: At least 5 man days of work effort
	

	Special sponsor - Negotiable
	
		If you have an offer or an idea which is of mutual benefit, we are 
ready to hear it. Please contact the Europython organisers.

Other Arrangements
==================

	Private Seminar Rooms
	
		You can rent your own seminar room for demonstrations, private 
seminars, job interviews etc.
		
		Cost: 100 Euros per hour (Evening hours cost more. Ask for an offer.)

	Increased Presence on the Show Floor
	
		You can rent more space and equipment on the show floor. Prices are 
close to "at cost". Contact us for an offer.

	Special Events
	
		If you want to put on a special event, please contact the Europython 
organisers for discussion and planning.


For planning purposes we need your decision to participate no later than 
at the end of May 2005.

Any participants joining after this date will be accepted only if they 
can be accomodated. Depending on the amount of work required we may 
charge latecomers an administrative fee of 100 Euros for extra work 
required.


--<end>--

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From facundobatista at gmail.com  Tue Apr 19 18:29:30 2005
From: facundobatista at gmail.com (Facundo Batista)
Date: Tue Apr 19 18:29:33 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Seeking feedback
Message-ID: <e04bdf3105041909295355100b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!

My idea is to register two talks and one sprint.

The sprint will be about implementing a Money module for Python.

The talks will be about Decimal (for begginers) in the "Python
Language" track, and Developing Python (a talk about how to develop
Python) in the "New to Python & Tutorials" track.

I'm in doubt about registering a talk about Money, because it will be
in the implementation process....

What do you think about it all?

Thank you!

.    Facundo

Blog: http://www.taniquetil.com.ar/plog/
PyAr: http://www.python.org/ar/
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Tue Apr 19 19:02:00 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Tue Apr 19 19:02:02 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Seeking feedback
In-Reply-To: <e04bdf3105041909295355100b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e04bdf3105041909295355100b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d05041910021733a9e4@mail.gmail.com>

Facunda,
 I like both talk proposals.
 But I would really like them "the other way round" .... "Developing Python" 
in my opinion fits better in "python language", because it is about changing 
the python language - absoluteley nothing to do with the "new to python 
...."
 And I would LOVE to have the talk about decimal / python within the 
newbie-track, DECIMAL is GREAT to hunt within the COBOL legacy.\
 Harald

--

GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From steve at canonical.com  Wed Apr 20 04:18:15 2005
From: steve at canonical.com (Steve Alexander)
Date: Wed Apr 20 04:18:32 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Did I visit the right website?
Message-ID: <4265BBE7.20305@canonical.com>

I went to http://europython.org/ to see what I should do to propose some
talks.

For a while, I was confused!  I thought that I was on the Strakt
website, because of the huge "STRAKT" right at the top of the page where
you'd expect "Europython" to be.

I realize now that this is a banner advertisement, given to Strakt in
thanks for being a major sponsor.  I think that it's fine to thank
sponsors by giving them prominent advertising.  However, it just doesn't
look like a banner ad.

The banner is not visually distict from its surroundings.  It is a lot
larger than the Europython logo, and dwarfs it in terms of its visual
impact.  There is no discrete "sponsor advertisement" text next to the
banner.  The banner is on the same line as the conference logo, whereas
most banner ads are on a line on their own (see slashdot.org).

-- 
Steve Alexander
From steve at canonical.com  Wed Apr 20 04:56:32 2005
From: steve at canonical.com (Steve Alexander)
Date: Wed Apr 20 04:56:44 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] i got an error on the europython registration site
Message-ID: <4265C4E0.5010708@canonical.com>

I was submitting a talk to europython when I got this error.

The page is:

  http://pbf.strakt.com:8080/speakers.chtml/freeform_post!speaker!form

Going back (using the browser's back button) didn't improve the situation.

I started again from scratch, from the "propose_a_talk" page, and it worked.


Here's the error.


exceptions.AttributeError:
  'NoneType' object has no attribute 'newspeakers'

/home/caps/release/lib/python2.3/site-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py,
line 129 in maybeDeferred

127
128 try:
129     result = f(*args, **kw)
130 except:

Locals
kw	{}
f	<bound method Speakers.configurable_speaker of <presentation.Speakers
object at 0x4662d02c>>
args	(<nevow.context.PageContext object at 0x4662d2ac>,)

./presentation.py, line 168 in configurable_speaker

166 if not form:
167     presData = getSession(
            inevow.IRequest(context)).getComponent(IPresentationForm)
168 form = SpeakerForm(presData.newspeakers)
169 sess.setComponent(ISpeakersForm, form)

Locals
presData	None
form	None
context	<nevow.context.PageContext object at 0x4662d2ac>
sess	<twisted.web.server.Session instance at 0x4657ab0c>
Globals
getSession	<function getSession at 0x40bbe454>
SpeakerForm	<class 'presentation.SpeakerForm'>
ISpeakersForm	<class 'presentation.ISpeakersForm'>
inevow	<module 'nevow.inevow' from
'/home/caps/src/nevow-0.3/nevow/inevow.pyc'>
IPresentationForm	<class 'presentation.IPresentationForm'>

exceptions.AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'newspeakers'

-- 
Steve Alexander

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Apr 20 08:52:52 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Wed Apr 20 08:52:54 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Did I visit the right website?
In-Reply-To: <4265BBE7.20305@canonical.com>
References: <4265BBE7.20305@canonical.com>
Message-ID: <4265FC44.7080503@ita.chalmers.se>

Steve Alexander wrote:

>I went to http://europython.org/ to see what I should do to propose some
>talks.
>
>For a while, I was confused!  I thought that I was on the Strakt
>website, because of the huge "STRAKT" right at the top of the page where
>you'd expect "Europython" to be.
>
>I realize now that this is a banner advertisement, given to Strakt in
>thanks for being a major sponsor.  I think that it's fine to thank
>sponsors by giving them prominent advertising.  However, it just doesn't
>look like a banner ad.
>
>The banner is not visually distict from its surroundings.  It is a lot
>larger than the Europython logo, and dwarfs it in terms of its visual
>impact.  There is no discrete "sponsor advertisement" text next to the
>banner.  The banner is on the same line as the conference logo, whereas
>most banner ads are on a line on their own (see slashdot.org).
>
>  
>

It also means that the sponsors got your attention. This is good...

/JM
From jmo at chalmers.se  Wed Apr 20 09:46:07 2005
From: jmo at chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Wed Apr 20 09:45:32 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Did I visit the right website?
In-Reply-To: <4265FC44.7080503@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <4265BBE7.20305@canonical.com> <4265FC44.7080503@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <426608BF.2010102@chalmers.se>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:

> Steve Alexander wrote:
>
>> I went to http://europython.org/ to see what I should do to propose some
>> talks.
>>
>> For a while, I was confused!  I thought that I was on the Strakt
>> website, because of the huge "STRAKT" right at the top of the page where
>> you'd expect "Europython" to be.
>>
>> I realize now that this is a banner advertisement, given to Strakt in
>> thanks for being a major sponsor.  I think that it's fine to thank
>> sponsors by giving them prominent advertising.  However, it just doesn't
>> look like a banner ad.
>>
>> The banner is not visually distict from its surroundings.  It is a lot
>> larger than the Europython logo, and dwarfs it in terms of its visual
>> impact.  There is no discrete "sponsor advertisement" text next to the
>> banner.  The banner is on the same line as the conference logo, whereas
>> most banner ads are on a line on their own (see slashdot.org).
>>
>>  
>>
>
> It also means that the sponsors got your attention. This is good...
>
> /JM
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


FYI, the original design had a picture in the main part area in which it
was supposed to be written:

"EUROPYTHON CONFERENCE 2005"

before it was suggested to remove it because it took too much space and
because it didn't add much information. This is the old text vs graphic
debate..

http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/

/JM


From ivo at amaze.nl  Wed Apr 20 10:22:32 2005
From: ivo at amaze.nl (Ivo van der Wijk)
Date: Wed Apr 20 10:22:34 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Specs for printed ads in the programme
In-Reply-To: <200504191704.36623.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <4265128C.4030807@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200504191704.36623.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <20050420082232.GX11785@amaze.nl>

On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 05:04:36PM +0200, Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> On tisdag 19 april 2005 16:15, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I need ASAP specs for the ads to be printed in the programme. Or rather
> > - are we going to have a printed Programme?
> >
> > I need to give this out to sponsors.
> 
> We will have a print-yourself program, just like last year. Ads for it should 
> be 90 mm tall and 125 mm wide to be optimal. We can receive other sizes, but 
> may have to scale or crop the ad to make it fit, with unknown consequences 
> for resolution and outcome. Preferred formats are JPEG and PNG, though EPS, 
> GIF, TIFF and some others will work as well. People can experiment 
> themselves. I use OpenOffice to build the ad page, and then I export it as a 
> pdf file.
> 

I have our current banners as .psd files - can you handle those or
should I ask someone to convert them?

Cheers

        Ivo

-- 
Drs. I.R. van der Wijk                                      -=-
Korte Leidsedwarsstraat 12                                 Amaze
1017 RC Amsterdam, NL                                       -=-
T +31-20-4688336         F +31-20-4688337       Zope/Plone/Content Management
W http://www.amaze.nl    E info@amaze.nl           Open Source Solutions
W http://vanderwijk.info E ivo@amaze.nl                 Consultancy
PGP http://vanderwijk.info/pgp   
From jacob at strakt.com  Thu Apr 21 02:08:59 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Thu Apr 21 02:09:25 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Payment is open
Message-ID: <200504210208.59757.jacob@strakt.com>

After a nerve-wracking last minute bug, the registration is now open. 
Fortunately I found the missing slash in the name of the production site 
fairly quickly,and things seem to be working pretty well.

I'll be doing some work over the next few weeks to make things even better,so 
I'm happy for any feedback you have.

First on my agenda is getting rid of the huge "None"  thingies on the confirm 
page. You don't have to tell me about those.

However, now I am off to sleep, since I have to get up in 2.5 hours to go to 
ACCU/Python UK.

Anyone up to writing an announcement and a reminder about deadline for 
refereed papers being 22 May?

Jacob
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Apr 21 12:45:42 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Apr 21 13:04:43 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Urgent - Read and Respond: Reduced fee for a potential
	sponsor?
Message-ID: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>

Hello,

I have a proposal from a potential sponsor. They are sending 4 people 
from their company, one is a speaker (if their talk is accepted) and 
will probably bring along around 10 people more which are some of their 
customers.

They ask if they can have a reduced fee for their own staff, and suggest 
around 130 euro/staff member. What do you people think?

Do we have some sort rebate system for companies bringing several 
participants?

Thanks.

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From aiste at pov.lt  Thu Apr 21 13:10:23 2005
From: aiste at pov.lt (Aiste Kesminaite)
Date: Thu Apr 21 13:10:28 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Urgent - Read and Respond: Reduced fee for a
	potential sponsor?
In-Reply-To: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <42678A1F.6060708@pov.lt>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

| Do we have some sort rebate system for companies bringing several
| participants?

That would be a good idea. POV is planning on bringing 6 people into the
conference, some of them -- speakers, but even the early bird
registration fee is qute steep for that amount of people.

- --
Aiste Kesminaite
Managing director, Programmers of Vilnius
Phone: +370 6563 6462
Email: aiste@pov.lt
Web: www.pov.lt
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (Darwin)

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W17bwdGo+qmuCA4f8XiihRw=
=NtQB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 21 13:23:24 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Thu Apr 21 13:23:27 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Urgent - Read and Respond: Reduced fee for a
	potential sponsor?
In-Reply-To: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d050421042357bc31a6@mail.gmail.com>

> 
> I have a proposal from a potential sponsor. They are sending 4 people
> from their company, one is a speaker (if their talk is accepted) and
> will probably bring along around 10 people more which are some of their
> customers.
> 

I think there is nothing wrong with:

- negotiating discounts for participants sent to the conference by a sponsor 
as part of an "individual sponsor agreement"
- offering large number discounts

That is the "sales part" of the story.

I am not deep enough in "economie of scales"-aspects of our calculation. 
Standard economics suggest:

- having LOTS of interested participants makes it surely easier to attract 
sponsors
- the "reduced fee" has to be enough to at least cover the variable costs 
connected to that participant (meals, internet-access, badge, m? floor space 
used)

Harald

-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Apr 21 15:23:12 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?UTF-8?B?RGFyaW8gTG9wZXotS8Okc3Rlbg==?=)
Date: Thu Apr 21 15:23:25 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Urgent - Read and Respond: Reduced fee for a
	potential sponsor?
In-Reply-To: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4267A940.9010405@ita.chalmers.se>

thanks Aiste and Harald. I'll have a look in the budget and see if I can 
experiment with the numbers, and then I hope Jacob can chime in and 
share his views.

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Apr 21 15:29:26 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Apr 21 15:29:39 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Invitation for EuroPython Conference 2005
Message-ID: <4267AAB6.8030905@ita.chalmers.se>

Dear all,

this is the text that I have used when talking to sponsors. I plan on 
puttint this up at the Website RSN, as soon as I get hold of Jean-Marc.

In the meanwhile, I send it to the list, in the hopes that you will help 
me spread the word.

A good thing is that if we get at least 3-4 exhibitors (or probably 5-5 
if we are going to reduce the fees for parties of more than X people) 
then we may be able to afford to rent a really large space for 
exhibition and trade show area. It would mean a big boost for mingling, 
since we do no need to roam around the corridors any more, as we did 
last year.

But, this is dependant on getting exhibiting sponsors, and no 
cimmitement is made yet. So spread the word!

Sincerely,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
-------------- next part --------------

The EuroPython Conference 2005 Invites Sponsors

    The EuroPython Conference is looking for interested companies to support and
    sponsor the EuroPython Conference of 2005. The EuroPython Conference is
    being run with the help of volunteers and we invite companies using Python
    or with interests in Python development to sponsor the event. Any
    contribution, no matter how small, is appreciated.

    You can support the EuroPython Conference by participating in the Trade Show
    or by becoming an Official EuroPython Sponsor. We can also offer customised
    solutions and are always open to alternate solutions.

Trade Show

    You can participate in the Trade Show. This means that you have access to a
    small space to promote your company. This includes the following:

        o a desk, a chair and 2 meters of wall space.
        o one electric outlet (same standard as in Germany, the Netherlands etc)
        o access to the wireless network.

    Requirements

        At least one member of your organisation must be attending the
        conference, but you may staff your booth with non attendees.

        You are required to keep your booth manned during the "trade show". This
        will take place for a period of 6 hours. Lunch break, afternoon session
        and an hour or so after the end of the conference day, depending on
        public interest.

        You can have your booth up manned or unmanned the rest of the time - it
        is up to each company to decide.

    Insurance

        You are not insured by the conference.

    Cost

        250 Euros, excluding conference attendance fees.


Sponsorhip Agreement

    You can become a sponsor of the conference. The following options are
    available:

    Gold sponsor

        o Your name/link on the website
        o An ad in the conference program
        o A streamer in each conference room
        o A streamer in the entrance
        o A 15 minute talk before one of the keynotes

        Cost: 2000 Euro

    Sponsor

        o Your name/link on the website
        o An ad in the conference program
        o A streamer in each conference room

        Cost: 500 Euro

    Advertiser

        o Your name/link on the website
        o An advert in the conference program

        Cost: 100 Euro for each advert

    Organising sponsor

        o Your name/link on the website
        o An ad in the conference program
        o A streamer in the entrance
        o A seminar room for 2 hours
        o Double exhibition space for free

        Cost: At least 5 man days of work effort


    Special sponsor - Negotiable

        If you have an offer or an idea which is of mutual benefit, we are ready
        to hear it. Please contact the Europython organisers.

Other Arrangements

    We are open to ideas and special arrangements if desired. We do offer some
    pre-defined special packages.

    Private Seminar Rooms

        You can rent your own seminar room for demonstrations, private seminars,
        job interviews etc.

        Cost: 100 Euros per hour (Evening hours cost more. Ask for an offer.)

    Increased Presence on the Show Floor

        You can rent more space and equipment on the show floor. Prices are
        close to "at cost". Contact us for an offer.

    Special Events

        If you want to put on a special event, please contact the Europython
        organisers for discussion and planning.

Dates and Deadlines

    For planning purposes we need your decision to participate no later than at
    the end of May 2005.

    Any participants joining after this date will be accepted only if they can
    be accomodated. Depending on the amount of work required we may charge
    latecomers an administrative fee of 100 Euros for extra work required.


Technical Data

    Website Banners

        The following technical data is required for banners submitted for
        exposure on the website. There are two formats for banners that we you
        can use, Top Banners and Online Banners.

        Top Banners

            Size: 468x60 pixels

            Exposure: displayed on every page, randomly rotating

        Online Banners:

            Size: 160x320 pixels

            Exposure: on one or several folders of the site.

            Example of Online Banner:

            http://www.europython.org/sections/accomodation/cheap_hotels

        Common requirements for both Banner types

            o A link to a site (url)
            o The name of the company
            o A short text description (for search engines e.g. google,
              etc and for the textbased version of the site)
            o Accepted image formats are JPEG, PNG, GIF
            o Please take care to keep file sizes small, index the image if
              possible. We reserve the right to process the images to reduce
              download size (does not affect display size).

            Additional information for Online Banners only

                o The folder/path in the site where it should be displayed
                  (Possibly limited by technical constraints. Please
                   contact us to verify availability of desired path.)


    Adverts to appear in the Programme

        As last year, this year's Conference Programme will not have a pre-
        printed programme - instead we will offer a Print-Yourself Programme
        available on-line.

        Size:

            o 90x125 mm (that is 90 mm tall and 125 mm wide) is the optimal
              size.

            We can receive other sizes, but  may have to scale or crop the ad to
            make it fit, with unknown consequences for resolution and outcome.
            Please contact us if you have special requirements for advert space
            (ie you wish to have

        Formats:

            o Preferred formats are JPEG and PNG.
            o EPS, GIF, TIFF will work as well.

        Resolution:

            o Resolution should be no less than 300 px/square inch
              and not more than 600 px/square inch.

        Note:

            Adverts are intended to be printed and should have the proper
            resolution. Images intended for websites do not have a resolution
            suitable for printing; using images intended for websites will
            result in inferior output quality.

    Submitting material

        Banners should be sent to jmo@ita.chalmers.se for insertion in the site.

        Banners are usually inserted within 24 hours of submission, but may take
        a short while longer to appear, depending on workload.

        Adverts for the programme should be sent to jacob@strakt.com for
        insertion in the programme.


From faassen at infrae.com  Thu Apr 21 17:21:44 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Thu Apr 21 17:17:52 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Urgent - Read and Respond: Reduced fee for
	a	potential sponsor?
In-Reply-To: <42678A1F.6060708@pov.lt>
References: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se> <42678A1F.6060708@pov.lt>
Message-ID: <4267C508.5090401@infrae.com>

Aiste Kesminaite wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> | Do we have some sort rebate system for companies bringing several
> | participants?
> 
> That would be a good idea. POV is planning on bringing 6 people into the
> conference, some of them -- speakers, but even the early bird
> registration fee is qute steep for that amount of people.

Infrae wouldn't mind either; we tend to come with quite a few people too. :)

Regards,

Martijn


From jacob at strakt.com  Thu Apr 21 20:02:33 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Thu Apr 21 20:02:40 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Urgent - Read and Respond: Reduced fee for a
	potential sponsor?
In-Reply-To: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <200504212002.33616.jacob@strakt.com>

torsdag 21 april 2005 12.45 skrev Dario Lopez-K?sten:
> Hello,
>
> I have a proposal from a potential sponsor. They are sending 4 people
> from their company, one is a speaker (if their talk is accepted) and
> will probably bring along around 10 people more which are some of their
> customers.
>
> They ask if they can have a reduced fee for their own staff, and suggest
> around 130 euro/staff member. What do you people think?
>
> Do we have some sort rebate system for companies bringing several
> participants?

I think we want to encourage companies to bring many people. However, we don't 
want to discount so much that it hurts our budget. For instance, the current 
speakers fee only covers food costs, so I don't think it is reasonable to 
give any further discounts there.

This is what I propose:

If you bring 5 people or more, you can get a 20% discount. No discount on 
student fees and no discount on speakers fees (though speakers count for the 
5 people limit).

I'm right now at the Python UK/ACCU conference, and they have a limited number 
of subscriptions with t-mobile for internet access. This means that I'll 
probably only get short slots in which I can reply to emails in the next few 
days.

Jacob
From aiste at pov.lt  Thu Apr 21 20:12:12 2005
From: aiste at pov.lt (Aiste Kesminaite)
Date: Thu Apr 21 20:12:16 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Urgent - Read and Respond: Reduced fee for
	a	potential sponsor?
In-Reply-To: <200504212002.33616.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200504212002.33616.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <4267ECFC.4000905@pov.lt>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Jacob,

| I think we want to encourage companies to bring many people. However,
we don't
| want to discount so much that it hurts our budget. For instance, the
current
| speakers fee only covers food costs, so I don't think it is reasonable to
| give any further discounts there.
|
| This is what I propose:
|
| If you bring 5 people or more, you can get a 20% discount. No discount on
| student fees and no discount on speakers fees (though speakers count
for the
| 5 people limit).

That sounds very reasonable and very acceptable to me.
The speaker and student fees are already offered at a dicount, so it
would be too much to ask for another discount on those.

Cheers,

- --
Aiste Kesminaite
Managing director, Programmers of Vilnius
Phone: +370 6563 6462
Email: aiste@pov.lt
Web: www.pov.lt
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (Darwin)

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=BecK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
From tom at aragne.com  Thu Apr 21 20:32:23 2005
From: tom at aragne.com (tom)
Date: Thu Apr 21 20:32:30 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Payment is open
References: <200504210208.59757.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c546a0$79030580$1a00a8c0@simkin>

> Anyone up to writing an announcement and a reminder about deadline for
> refereed papers being 22 May?

I'll see if I can give a hand here. Hope to have something within a few 
hours.

Tom. 

From tom at aragne.com  Thu Apr 21 21:06:28 2005
From: tom at aragne.com (tom)
Date: Thu Apr 21 21:06:33 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Payment is open
References: <200504210208.59757.jacob@strakt.com>
	<007f01c546a0$79030580$1a00a8c0@simkin>
Message-ID: <00b301c546a5$3bc101e0$1a00a8c0@simkin>

Anybody who wants to read it?
Afterwards, do I just publish it on the site?

PS.  the submission page on the web talks about 22 April... and 1 May as 
deadlines.
I can change the 22 april, but what has been decided on 1 May?

Tom.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tom" <tom@aragne.com>
To: "Jacob Hallen" <jacob@strakt.com>; <europython@python.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: [Tom] Re:[EuroPython] Payment is open


>> Anyone up to writing an announcement and a reminder about deadline for
>> refereed papers being 22 May?
>
> I'll see if I can give a hand here. Hope to have something within a few 
> hours.
>
> Tom.
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 

From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 21 21:08:14 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Thu Apr 21 21:08:18 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Urgent - Read and Respond: Reduced fee for a
	potential sponsor?
In-Reply-To: <200504212002.33616.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <42678456.8080309@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200504212002.33616.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d05042112082b86b6b2@mail.gmail.com>

> 
> This is what I propose:
> 
> If you bring 5 people or more, you can get a 20% discount. No discount on
> student fees and no discount on speakers fees (though speakers count for 
> the
> 5 people limit).
> 
> 
That sound wise and correct. And I suggest that we extend the same discount 
to sponsors.

harald




-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From mathias.foehr at actuarcalc.lu  Thu Apr 21 22:21:15 2005
From: mathias.foehr at actuarcalc.lu (Mathias Foehr)
Date: Thu Apr 21 23:37:36 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Is registration really working ????[Fwd: Confirmation:
 TEST CARD Transaction] 
Message-ID: <42680B3B.5090304@actuarcalc.lu>

I have registered this afternoon, According  to the Europython website, 
I have paid, I was asked my credit card details, but I got this back.


    This is a test transaction -
    no real money is involved.


Something could be wrong

regards, mathias

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Confirmation: TEST CARD Transaction
Date: 	Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:06:27 GMT
From: 	shopper@uk.worldpay.com
Reply-To: 	js@aixtraware.de
To: 	mathias.foehr@actuarcalc.lu



  Transaction Confirmation


  Please retain for your records


    This is a test transaction -
    no real money is involved.

	


    Thank you

Your transaction has been processed on behalf of AixtraWare.
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    Transaction details:

/Transaction for the value of:/ EUR70.00
/Description:/
/From:/ AixtraWare
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/Authorisation Date/Time:/ 21/Apr/2005 16:06:26
/Transaction ID:/ 113005392
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Mathias Foehr
conseil actuariat et informatique
56, route de Luxembourg
L- 8077 Bertrange
T?l: (+352) 319 833

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From jacob at strakt.com  Fri Apr 22 00:29:21 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Fri Apr 22 00:29:32 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Is registration really working ????[Fwd:
	Confirmation: TEST CARD Transaction]
In-Reply-To: <42680B3B.5090304@actuarcalc.lu>
References: <42680B3B.5090304@actuarcalc.lu>
Message-ID: <200504220029.21982.jacob@strakt.com>

torsdag 21 april 2005 22.21 skrev Mathias Foehr:
> I have registered this afternoon, According  to the Europython website,
> I have paid, I was asked my credit card details, but I got this back.
>
>
>     This is a test transaction -
>     no real money is involved.
>
>
> Something could be wrong

Thanks Mathias for spotting this. I forgot to turn off the test mode for card 
payments. I have now fixed this, so if you go back and do the registration 
again, things should work properly.

Fortunately you were the only one running into the problem, since you were the 
first one to use the card payment option.

Jacob Hall?n
Europython head organiser
From steve at canonical.com  Fri Apr 22 05:30:14 2005
From: steve at canonical.com (Steve Alexander)
Date: Fri Apr 22 05:30:25 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do I see what I proposed?
Message-ID: <42686FC6.9090908@canonical.com>

I have proposed to give some talks at EuroPython.  I want to review what
I said.  I cannot find a way to do this.

Is there a way to do this?


Also, the site didn't send me any email confirming what I have proposed.

-- 
Steve Alexander
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Fri Apr 22 07:47:09 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Fri Apr 22 07:47:25 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Payment is open
In-Reply-To: <00b301c546a5$3bc101e0$1a00a8c0@simkin>
References: <200504210208.59757.jacob@strakt.com>	<007f01c546a0$79030580$1a00a8c0@simkin>
	<00b301c546a5$3bc101e0$1a00a8c0@simkin>
Message-ID: <42688FDD.9060407@ita.chalmers.se>

tom wrote:
> Anybody who wants to read it?
> Afterwards, do I just publish it on the site?
> 

I will be happy to read it. Re publishing I don?tknow, will try to get 
hold of Jean-Marc.

Cheers,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From jacob at strakt.com  Fri Apr 22 09:24:49 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Fri Apr 22 09:25:06 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do I see what I proposed?
In-Reply-To: <42686FC6.9090908@canonical.com>
References: <42686FC6.9090908@canonical.com>
Message-ID: <200504220924.50064.jacob@strakt.com>

fredag 22 april 2005 05.30 skrev Steve Alexander:
> I have proposed to give some talks at EuroPython.  I want to review what
> I said.  I cannot find a way to do this.
>
> Is there a way to do this?
>
>
> Also, the site didn't send me any email confirming what I have proposed.

There is a link from the "Propose a talk" page
http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/talkupdate.chtml?conference=Europython%202005

I'm currently not generating emails for what you have proposed in your talk. I 
don't know how important that is. Personally, I found it more of a bother 
than anything else.

Jacob
From steve at canonical.com  Fri Apr 22 09:29:57 2005
From: steve at canonical.com (Steve Alexander)
Date: Fri Apr 22 09:31:48 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do I see what I proposed?
In-Reply-To: <200504220924.50064.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <42686FC6.9090908@canonical.com>
	<200504220924.50064.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <4268A7F5.5090504@canonical.com>


> There is a link from the "Propose a talk" page
> http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/talkupdate.chtml?conference=Europython%202005

Thanks Jacob.


> I'm currently not generating emails for what you have proposed in your talk. I 
> don't know how important that is. Personally, I found it more of a bother 
> than anything else.

I would find it useful, as I can look through my email archive to find
out the details of what I said I'd do, and have a record of important
URLs and such.

-- 
Steve Alexander
From aiste at pov.lt  Fri Apr 22 14:42:56 2005
From: aiste at pov.lt (Aiste Kesminaite)
Date: Fri Apr 22 14:43:01 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Rooms in =?iso-8859-1?q?Veckobost=E4der?=
In-Reply-To: <4268A7F5.5090504@canonical.com>
References: <42686FC6.9090908@canonical.com>	<200504220924.50064.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4268A7F5.5090504@canonical.com>
Message-ID: <4268F150.2010903@pov.lt>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Jacob,

How does the pricing for the rooms in Veckobost?der work?
Is the price on the website per bed or per room?

- --
Aiste Kesminaite
Managing director, Programmers of Vilnius
Phone: +370 6563 6462
Email: aiste@pov.lt
Web: www.pov.lt
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From gintas at pov.lt  Fri Apr 22 23:54:56 2005
From: gintas at pov.lt (Gintautas Miliauskas)
Date: Fri Apr 22 23:54:45 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Error submitting a talk
Message-ID: <1114206896.7630.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hello,

I tried to submit a talk for the Frameworks track through this page:

http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/presentation2.chtml?conference=688&track=692

And after pressing the 'Register Presentation' button got an error:

./presentation.py, line 494 in _makePF
exceptions.IndexError: list index out of range

492     form.speakers = [s.emailAddress[0] for s in p.speakers]
493 else:
494     form.conference = self._getconference(context)[0]
495     form.track = self._gettrack(context)[0]

Could someone look into this?  I'd like to submit my presentation by
Saturday evening.

I didn't provide more information because I think that the problem
should be easily reproducable.  If that is not the case, I'll be happy
to provide whatever you need.

-- 
Gintautas Miliauskas
http://gintasm.blogspot.com
Programmers of Vilnius (http://pov.lt)
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From gintas at pov.lt  Sat Apr 23 22:04:50 2005
From: gintas at pov.lt (Gintautas Miliauskas)
Date: Sat Apr 23 22:04:41 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Error submitting a talk
In-Reply-To: <1114206896.7630.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1114206896.7630.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1114286691.27905.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hello,

> I tried to submit a talk for the Frameworks track through this page:
> 
> http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/presentation2.chtml?conference=688&track=692
> 
> And after pressing the 'Register Presentation' button got an error:

The problem was my own fault, please disregard the previous message.  I
saw a large input box for the e-mail address and presumed that I had to
input my name as well as the e-mail address there, which broke the
system.  Sorry again.

-- 
Gintautas Miliauskas
http://gintasm.blogspot.com
Programmers of Vilnius (http://pov.lt)
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From sasha at systemvaruhuset.com  Mon Apr 25 15:04:02 2005
From: sasha at systemvaruhuset.com (Sasha Vincic)
Date: Mon Apr 25 15:48:09 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] PDFgeneration used last year, what was it?
In-Reply-To: <200504220029.21982.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <42680B3B.5090304@actuarcalc.lu>
	<200504220029.21982.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <1114434242.426ceac262bb9@www.vincic.org>

Hi,

Last year I printed a nice PDF from europython.org site. I am just curious what
tools/solution was used and where I can find more info about it?

See you this year!
/Sasha


-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Apr 25 18:41:39 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Mon Apr 25 18:41:42 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] PDFgeneration used last year, what was it?
In-Reply-To: <1114434242.426ceac262bb9@www.vincic.org>
References: <42680B3B.5090304@actuarcalc.lu>
	<200504220029.21982.jacob@strakt.com>
	<1114434242.426ceac262bb9@www.vincic.org>
Message-ID: <200504251841.39832.jacob@strakt.com>

m?ndag 25 april 2005 15.04 skrev Sasha Vincic:
> Hi,
>
> Last year I printed a nice PDF from europython.org site. I am just curious
> what tools/solution was used and where I can find more info about it?

This was created using the ReportLab conference kit, based on the ReportLab 
pdf rendering engine. Have a look at www.reportlab.com. The engine is 
OpenSource software, while add-ons are commercial.

Jacob Hall?n
From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Apr 25 18:42:52 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Mon Apr 25 18:43:03 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Error submitting a talk
In-Reply-To: <1114286691.27905.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1114206896.7630.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1114286691.27905.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200504251842.52338.jacob@strakt.com>

l?rdag 23 april 2005 22.04 skrev Gintautas Miliauskas:
> Hello,
>
> > I tried to submit a talk for the Frameworks track through this page:
> >
> > http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/presentation2.chtml?conference=6
> >88&track=692
> >
> > And after pressing the 'Register Presentation' button got an error:
>
> The problem was my own fault, please disregard the previous message.  I
> saw a large input box for the e-mail address and presumed that I had to
> input my name as well as the e-mail address there, which broke the
> system.  Sorry again.

Thanks for the input. I will make changes to make the system more resilient to 
such problems.

Jacob Hall?n
From paul.nolan at nuigalway.ie  Tue Apr 26 17:05:59 2005
From: paul.nolan at nuigalway.ie (paul.nolan@nuigalway.ie)
Date: Tue Apr 26 17:06:03 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] extended abstract for refereed paper at Europython
	Conference in Sweden
Message-ID: <1114527954.95631@galway.net>

Hello,

I realise that I may be a little late but below is extended abstract for a paper
for the European Python conference. I could manage to have the full paper in
a couple of days.

best regards,

Paul Nolan
-------------- next part --------------
Implementing Continuous Time Simulation Systems in Python
=========================================================

Professor Paul J. Nolan
Department of Mechanical Engineering
National University of Ireland,
Galway

paul.nolan@nuigalway.ie


EXTENDED ABSTRACT
=================

Computer simulation is very well established in studying complex systems. 
Simulation, often called 'the laboratory of management' allows us to develop 
a model of a real system (either existing or planned) and to run
WHAT-IF experiments on the model to predict what would happen in the real
system. The earliest of the so-called SPLs (Simulation Programming
Languages) were based on FORTRAN but C based system and subsequently C++
and a plethora of other language based systems evolved.  There are a huge 
number of SPLs -  as early as in the 1980's alone well over 100 systems
were reported. In many cases there was huge overlap between 'new' systems
and existing ones, many were promoted by commercial vendors and, their life 
cycle of many of these SPLs and packages has ended. 

Originally all simulation was performed on mainframes and simulation
was the preserve of academics or of big corporations. In the past 15 years
or so, with the widespread availability of PCs including notebook computers,
simulation .. Recent trends in simulation includes hierarchical modelling and 
object orientation, advanced GUIs including visual model builders, animations 
and so-called virtual environments.

Given the proliferation of simulation systems, one might be forgiven for being
less that enthusiastic about the introduction of YASL (Yet Another Simulation
Language). We are not proposing a commercial system but rather an open
source system which will allow us to perform medium scale simulations easily. 
There are some very strong arguments for using Python including the fact
that it is scripted, relatively easy syntax, allows rapid development, 
object orientated, available on a wide variety of platforms, easily
deployable on the web  and open source. The fact that there is a huge 
fraternity already using Python and the availability of Numerical Python, 
easy database integration and evolving GUI tools such as wxPython also add 
to its attraction.

A simulation system SimPy has been reported in the European Python conference.
The SimPy system is for so-called discrete event simulation used for modelling 
discrete processes when state changes at discrete times (event times). Another 
major class of simulation problems involves the study of continuous time 
systems. Such systems comprising physical devices e.g. electric, electronic, 
mechanical, hydraulic and  pneumatic components. The modelling of there is 
based the laws of physics and usually involves differential equations and 
coupled algebraic equations. These equations may in general be nonlinear.  
This is primarily the focus of our simulation work.

In this paper we describe a very small but yet extremely simulation system
written in Python. It is object orientated and different system models may be
readily incorporated. The simulator uses a simple trapezoidal rule for the numer
ical integration of the nonlinear differential equations describing the system.
The system is interactive and currently uses a command line interface. It has 
been used as a teaching aid in the study of computer control of 
electromechanical systems. As a specific example, the paper shows results
for the dynamic simulation of an asynchronous generator being driven by a 
wind turbine. 

Future plans on the incorporation of SFG (signal flow graphs), block diagrams 
and BG (bond graphs) for modelling as well use of a GUI, including model 
generator and animation system using wxPython is discussed.
  
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Apr 27 07:40:20 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Wed Apr 27 07:40:31 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Batch registration of participants
Message-ID: <426F25C4.5050104@ita.chalmers.se>

Hello,

One of our sponsors would like to ba able to barch register participants 
as part of the customer conference package.

How can we arrange that? One possibly simple solution would be to import 
a simple tab delimited file. Is that arrageaable? Or something similar?

Thanks,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Apr 27 07:45:43 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Wed Apr 27 07:45:53 2005
Subject: spelink (Re: [EuroPython] Batch registration of participants)
In-Reply-To: <426F25C4.5050104@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <426F25C4.5050104@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <426F2707.1000206@ita.chalmers.se>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> One of our sponsors would like to ba able to barch register

"to be able to batch register"

Sorry for the typos above and the ones I missed... :P

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From Sandis.Zacs at lattelekom.lv  Wed Apr 27 13:33:40 2005
From: Sandis.Zacs at lattelekom.lv (Sandis Zacs)
Date: Wed Apr 27 14:19:36 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Invoice request for EuroPython2005 registration
Message-ID: <593D8B10B2409E468D3E916CA156C84D06CC5BA0@mail02.ad.telekom.lv>

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From heikki at osafoundation.org  Wed Apr 27 21:44:26 2005
From: heikki at osafoundation.org (Heikki Toivonen)
Date: Wed Apr 27 21:44:57 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] M2Crypto sprint
Message-ID: <426FEB9A.6040402@osafoundation.org>

Hi,

I would like to run M2Crypto (http://sandbox.rulemaker.net/ngps/m2/)
sprint during Europython 2005. M2Crypto is the most complete OpenSSL
wrapper for Python. I should be able to reserve 2-3 days for it.

Based on some discussion on python-crypto mailinglist, fixing memory
leaks is one of the highest items on the list.

Additional things that I would like to fix during the sprint include
samples and documentation, as well as making the API consistent and fill
in any "holes".

Finally, if anyone is interested, we could think about a new, more
Pythonic M2Crypto API.


I've been involved with M2Crypto for about a year at Open Source
Applications Foundation (http://www.osafoundation.org/). I've added
things like the ability to use M2Crypto as a mini CA, Twisted wrapper,
and various smaller improvements. OSAF is now providing limited hosting
for the M2Crypto project (Subversion repository and Bugzilla). OSAF is
also using M2Crypto in it's Chandler product (I'm planning on giving a
talk about Chandler as well during Europython).

Cheers,

-- 
  Heikki Toivonen


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From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Apr 28 09:06:38 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Apr 28 09:06:51 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Can I get some answers about the following?
Message-ID: <42708B7E.4080307@ita.chalmers.se>

Hello all, sorry to be a bother but I need some answers to the stuff 
below, and it seems as communications are being somewhat slow at the 
moment. Unfortunatley ther is not much time left, so I need to get these 
answered or at least get an opinion on this asap. Silence is not an option.

1) will we advertise in any way that we give 20% discount to 5 or more 
people from the same company (regular attendees only, not speakers, 
students, etc).

If yes, in what form? Website? to sponsors only? Upon registering?

2 A) I want to change the requirement for exhibitors to have their 
booths manned at all times (almost). I think it is up to the exhibitor 
to arrange for proper manning of their table. It is not like we have 
huge amounts of unmanned exhibition booths.

2 B) I want this because it I would like to have at least 3-4 exhibitng 
sponsors. If we do, we can afford to rent an adjacent space in the 
conference that is perfect for trade show space and socialising area.

I need to know if 2 A and B are acceptable.

3) Batch registrations. How do we go about batch registrations? We have 
a sponsor that wnat sto register their customers as part of a conference 
package they are preparing. How to do that?


Thank you,

/dario - eagerly waiting for answers ;-)

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From heikki at osafoundation.org  Thu Apr 28 18:55:28 2005
From: heikki at osafoundation.org (Heikki Toivonen)
Date: Fri Apr 29 02:32:23 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] M2Crypto sprint
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d0504280230171addf1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <426FEB9A.6040402@osafoundation.org>
	<7be3f35d0504280230171addf1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42711580.3070007@osafoundation.org>

Harald Armin Massa wrote:
> as much as I understood, sprints are all "AROUND" the conferences, not 
> "DURING" the conference. 

Yeah, that's what I actually meant, sprint for 2-3 days before or after
the actual conference. Sorry for the confusion.

-- 
  Heikki Toivonen

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From philipp at weitershausen.de  Thu Apr 28 14:03:28 2005
From: philipp at weitershausen.de (Philipp von Weitershausen)
Date: Fri Apr 29 02:32:39 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Talk submittal software broken
Message-ID: <4270D110.4080107@weitershausen.de>

Hi everyone,

I've been trying to submit my talks proposals for EP05 for two days now 
and every time I get an exception:

   exceptions.IndexError: list index out of range

and further down it says:

./presentation.py, line 494 in _makePF
492         form.speakers = [s.emailAddress[0] for s in p.speakers]
493 else:
494     form.conference = self._getconference(context)[0]
495     form.track = self._gettrack(context)[0]

Line 494 is marked red, so I presume that's where the error is.

Dario informed me that Gintautas from POV had a similar problem and 
fixed it by only submittign the email address in the corresponding form 
field. I tried that and it wouldn't change anything.

Philipp
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 11:30:00 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Fri Apr 29 02:33:14 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] M2Crypto sprint
In-Reply-To: <426FEB9A.6040402@osafoundation.org>
References: <426FEB9A.6040402@osafoundation.org>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d0504280230171addf1@mail.gmail.com>

Heikki,

as much as I understood, sprints are all "AROUND" the conferences, not 
"DURING" the conference. 

Do you really want to have both at the same time? 

I do not like that idea, because I really would be eager to have that great 
minds that understand cryptographics within the talks, the socialicing time 
of EuroPython and NOT quitly hacking away ... so, could you PLEASE at least 
consider to have that sprint "AROUND" EP (meaning "before" or "after") 
instead of "during"?

I am very eager to feel that Chandler-Presentation @ EuroPython!

Harald

-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Apr 28 13:42:29 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Fri Apr 29 02:45:42 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] mail test
Message-ID: <4270CC25.2000403@ita.chalmers.se>

testing, testing, 1,2,3

Is this thing working? *tap* *tap* Can you hear me?

Strangers in the niiiiiiiight.....

<test mail to see if mail.python.org  is working or if my messages get 
moderated to oblivion>

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From mwh at python.net  Thu Apr 28 12:59:16 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr 29 02:49:25 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Can I get some answers about the following?
In-Reply-To: <42708B7E.4080307@ita.chalmers.se> (
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten's_message_of?= "Thu, 28 Apr 2005
	09:06:38 +0200")
References: <42708B7E.4080307@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <2mk6mn181n.fsf@starship.python.net>

Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario@ita.chalmers.se> writes:

> Hello all, sorry to be a bother but I need some answers to the stuff
> below, and it seems as communications are being somewhat slow at the
> moment. Unfortunatley ther is not much time left, so I need to get
> these answered or at least get an opinion on this asap. Silence is not
> an option.
>
> 1) will we advertise in any way that we give 20% discount to 5 or more
>    people from the same company (regular attendees only, not speakers,
>    students, etc).

I thought we'd agreed on this one.

> If yes, in what form? Website? to sponsors only? Upon registering?

Hum, I don't know.  Maybe a mention on the website would make the most
sense.

> 2 A) I want to change the requirement for exhibitors to have their
> booths manned at all times (almost). I think it is up to the exhibitor
> to arrange for proper manning of their table. It is not like we have
> huge amounts of unmanned exhibition booths.

I have no opinion on this issue.

> 2 B) I want this because it I would like to have at least 3-4
> exhibitng sponsors. If we do, we can afford to rent an adjacent space
> in the conference that is perfect for trade show space and socialising
> area.

This sounds great!

> I need to know if 2 A and B are acceptable.
>
> 3) Batch registrations. How do we go about batch registrations? We
>    have a sponsor that wnat sto register their customers as part of a
>    conference package they are preparing. How to do that?

Huh, I have no idea :( Jacob should be back from the ACCU conference,
maybe he or Joachim can say....

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  > Emacs is a fashion statement.
  No, Gnus is a fashion statement.  Emacs is clothing.  Everyone 
  else is running around naked.
        -- Karl Kleinpaste & Jonadab the Unsightly One, gnu.emacs.gnus
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Apr 28 11:02:16 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Fri Apr 29 07:17:07 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Invoice template
Message-ID: <4270A698.4020304@ita.chalmers.se>

Hi,

I've made an Open Office invoice template that I need to invoice 
sponsoring companies, and that I attach for inspection.

I wonder about that payment code thing, if I shoudl remove that form the 
invoice (perhaps it only applies to the Online Registrations?)

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
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From Jukka.P.Laurila at nokia.com  Fri Apr 29 13:17:50 2005
From: Jukka.P.Laurila at nokia.com (Jukka.P.Laurila@nokia.com)
Date: Fri Apr 29 13:58:47 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] About the AV equipment available
Message-ID: <191CF299661D6E4EA39DC5DB2D4EB73E0CCAA9@esebe105.NOE.Nokia.com>

I'm planning to show some live demos of running Python on the phone and interacting with it over Bluetooth using a terminal program on a PC. Since Bluetooth is a fickle technology that's hard to configure I will have to use my own laptop for the demos. Also, to show the demos live it would be _very_ convenient to be able to show the phone screen and the laptop screen simultaneously, so having a second projector and a camera would be nice. Another solution would be to use a USB webcam connected to the laptop. 

Could you tell me what equipment you have available so I know what to bring with me? 
From magnus at thinkware.se  Fri Apr 29 14:56:46 2005
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka)
Date: Fri Apr 29 14:56:49 2005
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBUYWxrIHN1Ym1pdHRhbCBzb2Z0d2FyZSBicm9rZW4=?=
Message-ID: <think001_42722a2feabb3@webmail.thinkware.se>

I've had similar problems and I suspect it's a time-out problem. 

I did the following to get my talk registered:

I went back to the forms via the "Back" arrow in the web browser,
so that I could copy the texts that I wrote.

I placed the texts (title, short descr, long descr, email, name, 
bio) in a text editor window.

I started all over from the beginning (the menues) with the talk
registration process. (Just backing and re-submitting didn't work.)

Then I just copied the chunks of text from the text editor, one at
a time, and pasted them into the web browser forms and pressed submit.

That worked. Another option to get the texts to stick might be to 
write some short dummy texts and submit them, and then update them
afterwards with more complete texts. Just remember to type your
email address correctly, otherwise you won't be able to update your
text.

I think it's important that this gets fixed properly as soon as
possible. Pending a fix, I suggest some kind of notice on the web
site, either that we suggest that people wait, and extent the talk
submission limit, or that we either suggest an workaround as above
or that people just mail the track chairs (or try both).


From philipp at weitershausen.de  Fri Apr 29 15:01:49 2005
From: philipp at weitershausen.de (Philipp von Weitershausen)
Date: Fri Apr 29 15:02:18 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Talk submittal software broken
In-Reply-To: <think001_42722a2feabb3@webmail.thinkware.se>
References: <think001_42722a2feabb3@webmail.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <4272303D.5010406@weitershausen.de>

Magnus Lycka wrote:
> I've had similar problems and I suspect it's a time-out problem. 
> 
> I did the following to get my talk registered:
> 
> I went back to the forms via the "Back" arrow in the web browser,
> so that I could copy the texts that I wrote.
> 
> I placed the texts (title, short descr, long descr, email, name, 
> bio) in a text editor window.
> 
> I started all over from the beginning (the menues) with the talk
> registration process. (Just backing and re-submitting didn't work.)
> 
> Then I just copied the chunks of text from the text editor, one at
> a time, and pasted them into the web browser forms and pressed submit.

Wow, yeah, that worked! So it indeed seems to be a (session?) timeout 
problem.

Philipp
From vajda at osafoundation.org  Fri Apr 29 20:09:35 2005
From: vajda at osafoundation.org (Andi Vajda)
Date: Fri Apr 29 20:09:37 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] error while submitting talk proposal
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.62.0504291105320.29789@zoe.ovaltofu.org>


Hi !

I tried to submit a proposal for a talk in the Python Frameworks track.
When submitting the second screen
(http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/speakers.chtml/freeform_post!speaker!form)
I get a python error:
exceptions.AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'newspeakers'

Did my proposal get through ?
(the subject is: Pulling Java Lucene into Python: PyLucene)

Thanks !

Andi..

From vajda at osafoundation.org  Fri Apr 29 23:17:50 2005
From: vajda at osafoundation.org (Andi Vajda)
Date: Fri Apr 29 23:17:50 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: error while submitting talk proposal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.62.0504291105320.29789@zoe.ovaltofu.org>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.62.0504291105320.29789@zoe.ovaltofu.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.62.0504291417220.102@zoe.ovaltofu.org>


Hi !

Since I last wrote to you, the bug was fixed or somehow it worked.
I was able to submit the proposal.

Andi..


On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, Andi Vajda wrote:

>
> Hi !
>
> I tried to submit a proposal for a talk in the Python Frameworks track.
> When submitting the second screen
> (http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/speakers.chtml/freeform_post!speaker!form)
> I get a python error:
> exceptions.AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'newspeakers'
>
> Did my proposal get through ?
> (the subject is: Pulling Java Lucene into Python: PyLucene)
>
> Thanks !
>
> Andi..
>
>
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Sat Apr 30 12:19:44 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Sat Apr 30 12:19:46 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Talk submitting fails
Message-ID: <7be3f35d0504300319218b07d8@mail.gmail.com>

Hello!

I tried to register my two talk propsals, and three attempts for one 
failed...

there is something going wrong, and I suggest that therefor we extend the 
submittal period.

Harald


-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
persuasion python postgresql
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
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From tziade at nuxeo.com  Sat Apr 30 16:13:21 2005
From: tziade at nuxeo.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tarek_Ziad=E9?=)
Date: Sat Apr 30 16:13:27 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Talk submitting fails
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d0504300319218b07d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504300319218b07d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42739281.9070509@nuxeo.com>

Harald Armin Massa wrote:

> Hello!
>
> I tried to register my two talk propsals, and three attempts for one 
> failed...
>
> there is something going wrong, and I suggest that therefor we extend 
> the submittal period.
>
> Harald
>
>
> -- 
> GHUM Harald Massa
> persuasion python postgresql
> Harald Armin Massa
> Reinsburgstra?e 202b
> 70197 Stuttgart
> 0173/9409607
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>EuroPython mailing list
>EuroPython@python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>  
>
+1
Had the same problem


-- 
Tarek ZIADE, Nuxeo SARL: Zope Service Provider.
Mail: tz@nuxeo.com - Tel: +33 (0)6 30 37 02 63
Nuxeo Collaborative Portal Server: http://www.nuxeo.com/cps
Gestion de contenu web / portail collaboratif / groupware / open source

From jacob at strakt.com  Sat Apr 30 21:31:52 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Sat Apr 30 21:35:19 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Talk submitting fails
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d0504300319218b07d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7be3f35d0504300319218b07d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200504302131.53165.jacob@strakt.com>

l?rdag 30 april 2005 12.19 skrev Harald Armin Massa:
> Hello!
>
> I tried to register my two talk propsals, and three attempts for one
> failed...
>
> there is something going wrong, and I suggest that therefor we extend the
> submittal period.
>
> Harald

We have problem with the internet connection to Strakt at the moment, which 
causes problems. I agree that we should extend the submission period for a 
few days.

Jacob