From jacob at strakt.com  Tue Feb  1 21:51:26 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Tue Feb  1 21:58:09 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Troble working with the website
Message-ID: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>

Hi!

I have been trying to add some of our old contents to the new site, and I have 
a few problems.

1. I can't add to the general structure. I probably don't have privileges 
enough. Do I need to make any modifications to the general structire or will 
jmo and others handle that?

2. When I make a "Flexible Document", and try to make it lik to an Image, in 
the same directory, it doesn't. I know you can have an image as a part of the 
document, but that has its own problems. You can only have a few text/image 
sections in one document, and I ran out. Is this because my images are not 
published, or due to some other problem?

3. What is the planned workflow of the site? Do I write things in my own 
directory and then publish them? If so, will others be able to modify my 
writings? This is necessary, for things to work smoothly. All the core 
organsiers should be able to edit anything on the site.

Jacob
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Feb  1 21:57:38 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Tue Feb  1 22:11:12 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Troble working with the website
In-Reply-To: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <41FFED42.6000409@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:

>Hi!
>
>  
>
Hi!

>I have been trying to add some of our old contents to the new site, and I have 
>a few problems.
>
>1. I can't add to the general structure. I probably don't have privileges 
>enough. Do I need to make any modifications to the general structire or will 
>jmo and others handle that?
>
>  
>
I've create an 'EP' user group (with users that have already registered) 
and assigned the 'Section Manager' role to it, so now you can modify the 
general structure.

>2. When I make a "Flexible Document", and try to make it lik to an Image, in 
>the same directory, it doesn't. I know you can have an image as a part of the 
>document, but that has its own problems. You can only have a few text/image 
>sections in one document, and I ran out. Is this because my images are not 
>published, or due to some other problem?
>  
>
That's right, the number can be increased from 3 to anything, 20 should 
be enough? The same goes with maximum file sizes. it can be increased 
from 3MB to anothing.

>3. What is the planned workflow of the site? Do I write things in my own 
>directory and then publish them? If so, will others be able to modify my 
>writings? This is necessary, for things to work smoothly. All the core 
>organsiers should be able to edit anything on the site.
>
>Jacob
>  
>
You can put personal documents in your home folder and all other shared 
documents in the 'EP group' workspace.

If you expect a document to be shared with others then put it directly 
in the 'EP group' so that others in the group can modified. Otherwise 
you can of course move already published documents from your home folder 
to the group folder and vice versa without affecting the published document.

regards /JM




From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Feb  2 00:52:53 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Wed Feb  2 01:10:00 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] front page
In-Reply-To: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42001655.1010809@ita.chalmers.se>


Hi!

I've removed the large picture from the front page, replaced it with 
boxes with dummy content until there is something to show. Basically 
there could be any information in them  (latest news, events, updates, 
tracks....., direct links to pages, images, etc...) - I think it can be 
seen as a pinboard.

see:
http://europython-develop.zope.nl/   (front)
http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/board.png   (backstage)

/JM
From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 10:50:29 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Wed Feb  2 10:50:32 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] front page
In-Reply-To: <42001655.1010809@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>
	<42001655.1010809@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4200A265.1090503@simplistix.co.uk>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:

> I've removed the large picture from the front page, replaced it with 
> boxes with dummy content until there is something to show. Basically 
> there could be any information in them  (latest news, events, updates, 
> tracks....., direct links to pages, images, etc...) - I think it can be 
> seen as a pinboard.

Thanks, better, but can we please get the "what, who, why" to be at the 
same vertical alignment? I'd suggest booting "image of the day" below 
"upcoming events"and have shortcuts be two columns wide but the same 
height as "latest site updates"...

Anyone else agree?

cheers,

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Feb  2 11:12:35 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Wed Feb  2 11:13:43 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] front page
In-Reply-To: <4200A265.1090503@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>
	<42001655.1010809@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4200A265.1090503@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4200A793.8040505@ita.chalmers.se>

Chris Withers wrote:

> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>
>> I've removed the large picture from the front page, replaced it with 
>> boxes with dummy content until there is something to show. Basically 
>> there could be any information in them  (latest news, events, 
>> updates, tracks....., direct links to pages, images, etc...) - I 
>> think it can be seen as a pinboard.
>
>
> Thanks, better, but can we please get the "what, who, why" to be at 
> the same vertical alignment? I'd suggest booting "image of the day" 
> below "upcoming events"and have shortcuts be two columns wide but the 
> same height as "latest site updates"...
>
> Anyone else agree?
>
Hi!

> cheers,
>
> Chris
>
do you mean like this:?
http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/ep-front-layout.png   (slots view)
http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/ep-front-layout2.png   
(portlets view)

I've added a theme switcher so it's now easy to add / remove portlets on 
the front page. But the main grid structure should not be modified. So 
it is more a matter of agreeing on the grid structure than on its actual 
contents that can be changed afterwards.

there is now :

----------------------
| box1 | box2 | box3 |

----------------------
| box4 | box5        |
----------------------

vertical lengths for boxes inside a same slot are dependent on their 
contents and it's almost impossible to control it in a simple way, but 
having two rows make it possible to realign the boxes somewhere at the 
middle of the page (latest site updates, shortcuts).

/JM
From jacob at strakt.com  Tue Feb  1 22:01:48 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Wed Feb  2 11:51:10 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
Message-ID: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>

It looks like this email got caught in a network ffailure at our site. I'm 
resending, so in case you see 2, you know why.

Here is the menu structure that I would like to have for the website.
I think it fairly well reflects the way people think when they view the site.

Jacob


Registration issues
  Registration information
  Registration
Location
  About the conference venue
  General information about G?teborg and Sweden
  Getting to G?teborg
  Transit information
  Getting around the G?teborg area
Accomodation
  Europython special accomodation
  Youth Hostels
  B&B
  Cheap Hotels
  Medium price Hotels
  Expensive Hotels
Tracks and talks
  Propose a talk
  Track overview
  Schedule day 1
  Schedule day 2
  Schedule day 3
  Print your own programme
Events
  Keynotes
  Pub
  Conference dinner
  Breakfast
  Lunch
Sprints and wiki
  Propose a sprint
  Sprint times and locations
  Proposed sprints
  Attendee wiki
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Feb  2 15:31:26 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Wed Feb  2 15:35:09 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:

>It looks like this email got caught in a network ffailure at our site. I'm 
>resending, so in case you see 2, you know why.
>
>Here is the menu structure that I would like to have for the website.
>I think it fairly well reflects the way people think when they view the site.
>
>Jacob
>  
>
Hi, thanks!

the structure is now online. I had to make some of the level 1 item 
titles shorter.
There are some more adjustments to be made in the left navigation 
portlet. But it will be easier to see what changes to do when content 
has been published.
 
/JM
From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Thu Feb  3 08:59:25 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Thu Feb  3 08:59:28 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] front page
In-Reply-To: <4200A793.8040505@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>
	<42001655.1010809@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4200A265.1090503@simplistix.co.uk>
	<4200A793.8040505@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4201D9DD.5070609@simplistix.co.uk>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/ep-front-layout2.png   
> (portlets view)

That looks absolutely perfect :-)

> vertical lengths for boxes inside a same slot are dependent on their 
> contents and it's almost impossible to control it in a simple way, 

Well, only if you're really hard nosed about how you build it. This IS 
tabular data, and as such, you COULD use a table ;-)

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Thu Feb  3 09:03:25 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Thu Feb  3 09:03:43 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> the structure is now online. I had to make some of the level 1 item 
> titles shorter.
> There are some more adjustments to be made in the left navigation 
> portlet. But it will be easier to see what changes to do when content 
> has been published.

Just to say, the website is starting to look REALLY good :-)

Little niggles:

1. Was really slow to load when I just went there

2. Can we drop the unlabelled and somewhat non - descript search box 
floating about the top bar down into a box with a blue-bar header of 
"Search" that appears under "Image of the day"?

cheers,

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb  3 10:56:00 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu Feb  3 11:04:26 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4201F530.4030209@ita.chalmers.se>

Chris Withers wrote:

> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>
>> the structure is now online. I had to make some of the level 1 item 
>> titles shorter.
>> There are some more adjustments to be made in the left navigation 
>> portlet. But it will be easier to see what changes to do when content 
>> has been published.
>
>
> Just to say, the website is starting to look REALLY good :-)
>
> Little niggles:
>
> 1. Was really slow to load when I just went there
>
I noticed that too. The first loading of the page takes quite some until 
all objects are in the cache (and there are quite a lot of objects on a 
single page). Could have something to do with the zope object cache 
settings?   The server is Zope-2.7.2 maybe it should upgraded to the 
latest 2.7.4?

> 2. Can we drop the unlabelled and somewhat non - descript search box 
> floating about the top bar down into a box with a blue-bar header of 
> "Search" that appears under "Image of the day"?
>

yes I will do that.

/JM

> cheers,
>
> Chris
>

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb  3 11:16:38 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu Feb  3 11:25:17 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4201FA06.5090101@ita.chalmers.se>

Chris Withers wrote:

> 1. Was really slow to load when I just went there
>

another thing: the server has 4 processors but the zope processes do not 
seem to be bound to any of them.

is there the equivalent of 'taskset' command on debian?

/JM

From magnus at thinkware.se  Thu Feb  3 11:31:14 2005
From: magnus at thinkware.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Magnus_Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Thu Feb  3 11:31:27 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <4201FD72.2000406@thinkware.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:

>Here is the menu structure that I would like to have for the website.
>I think it fairly well reflects the way people think when they view the site.
>  
>
I'm missing a place in the menu structure for speaker 
presentations/interviews. Should we have that?

>Registration issues
>  Registration information
>  Registration
>Location
>  About the conference venue
>  General information about G?teborg and Sweden
>  Getting to G?teborg
>  Transit information
>  Getting around the G?teborg area
>Accomodation
>  Europython special accomodation
>  Youth Hostels
>  B&B
>  Cheap Hotels
>  Medium price Hotels
>  Expensive Hotels
>Tracks and talks
>  Propose a talk
>  Track overview
>  Schedule day 1
>  Schedule day 2
>  Schedule day 3
>  Print your own programme
>Events
>  Keynotes
>  Pub
>  Conference dinner
>  Breakfast
>  Lunch
>Sprints and wiki
>  Propose a sprint
>  Sprint times and locations
>  Proposed sprints
>  Attendee wiki
>  
>

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb  3 11:37:27 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu Feb  3 11:46:19 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <4201FD72.2000406@thinkware.se>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4201FD72.2000406@thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <4201FEE7.1070900@ita.chalmers.se>

Magnus Lyck? wrote:

> Jacob Hall?n wrote:
>
>> Here is the menu structure that I would like to have for the website.
>> I think it fairly well reflects the way people think when they view 
>> the site.
>>  
>>
> I'm missing a place in the menu structure for speaker 
> presentations/interviews. Should we have that?
>

probably yes.

somehow related to this, what about a list of content types for such 
documents? Such things as interviews, presentations should preferably 
have the same presentation layout and data structure..

- Speaker presentations (a photo, background info, text, related links, ...)
- Interviews (photo, text)
- Track info
- ...

new types can be created in 2 minutes with CPSTypeMaker (which is 
already installed), but it is good to know in advance how many of them 
there will be and what they should contain.

/JM

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb  3 13:31:20 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Feb  3 13:31:36 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
Message-ID: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>

Hello people,

now that EPC 2005 is rolling and all sorts of practical details are 
being taken care of, I would like draw your attention to EPC 2006. Yes, 
that's next years EPC.

There is a proposal discussed off and on the list, that EPC 2006 be 
hosted by CERN. There is a bunch of enthusiasts at CERN that are very, 
very interested in hosting a EuroPython Conference, and 2006 is the best 
candidate year for them.

It turns out that CERN uses Python a *lot* in its research facilities so 
they actually like the idea of having loads of Python folks coming to 
visit them.

For the EPC and the European Python Community, this is a potentially 
huge opportunity to promote Python and its usage, and for companies 
doing business with Python it a way of further "legitimising" Python as 
an enterprise level Application development component.

The would-be organisers at CERN have researched and lobbied for this at 
CERN since ECP 2004 and they are now ready to formally announce and work 
for EPC 2006.

With regard to logistics, we can get good prices for hotels. There is a 
list of Hotels that offer special prices for CERN visitors and the 
prices range from 100 CHF for one person and 135 CHF for two, up to 
around 300 CHF for two persons, depending on the hotel (several of the 
hotels, even the cheaper ones, offer breakfast included).  1 CHF ~ 0.5 
Euros. I have a set of scanned images for those who would like to 
examine the prices more carefully.

Rooms for sprints and meetings will be available as needed and traveling 
to Genevea should not be a big problem, since at least Eayjet fly to 
geneva, and I assume that traveling by train is possible too at humane 
prices.

What they now need is a "Go!" decision from the EPC Community, and they 
need it this week (I know, 2 days to go).

*Therefore, I would like request that those who support this reply to 
the list as soon as possible.*

This is a great opportunity to get even more great publicity for Python, 
  not to mention that I think it would be really really cool and nice to 
go to CERN to attend EPC 2006.

Please respond ASAP to the list with your thoughts.

Sincerely,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb  3 14:20:15 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu Feb  3 14:30:50 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] mirroring europython.org
Message-ID: <4202250F.4060104@ita.chalmers.se>

Hi!

what about mirroring the europython site on a server at Chalmers?

fetching the front page from here (Sweden) to the Netherlands takes 0.45s

on the localhost (zope.nl) the front page gets loaded in 0.18s which 
means that almost 0.3s get lost in the transfer between the server in 
the Netherlands and Chalmers.

We could set up a Squid locally at the university that people during the 
conferene could use as a mirror of the main site.

/JM
From mwh at python.net  Thu Feb  3 15:13:05 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu Feb  3 15:13:07 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006
	host and organiser
In-Reply-To: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se> (
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten's_message_of?= "Thu, 03 Feb 2005
	13:31:20 +0100")
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net>

Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario@ita.chalmers.se> writes:

>
> With regard to logistics, we can get good prices for hotels. There is
> a list of Hotels that offer special prices for CERN visitors and the
> prices range from 100 CHF for one person and 135 CHF for two, up to
> around 300 CHF for two persons, depending on the hotel (several of the
> hotels, even the cheaper ones, offer breakfast included).  1 CHF ~ 0.5
> Euros. I have a set of scanned images for those who would like to
> examine the prices more carefully.

That doesn't sounds *amazingly* cheap, but I guess it is .ch...

> What they now need is a "Go!" decision from the EPC Community, and
> they need it this week (I know, 2 days to go).

Well, I think it's a good idea.  I also think I've said this before now...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  You owe The Oracle a TV with an 'intelligence' control - I've 
  tried 'brightness' but that didn't work.
                                      -- Internet Oracularity #1192-01
From Alexandre.Fayolle at logilab.fr  Thu Feb  3 15:22:42 2005
From: Alexandre.Fayolle at logilab.fr (Alexandre)
Date: Thu Feb  3 15:22:54 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <20050203142242.GQ11831@crater.logilab.fr>

On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 01:31:20PM +0100, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> What they now need is a "Go!" decision from the EPC Community, and they 
> need it this week (I know, 2 days to go).

Speaking on behalf of Logilab, I say +1 for EPC2006@CERN. We work with
several research centers in Grenoble, France, where some people would
like to attend EPC, but feel that Sweden is a bit remote. Going to
Geneva, on the other hand is quite feasable for them. 

And since I personnaly live 50km away from Geneva, well... ;-)

-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France).
http://www.logilab.com   http://www.logilab.fr  http://www.logilab.org
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From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb  3 15:23:46 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Feb  3 15:24:01 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006	host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
	<2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <420233F2.6020408@ita.chalmers.se>

Michael Hudson wrote:
> Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario@ita.chalmers.se> writes:
>>What they now need is a "Go!" decision from the EPC Community, and
>>they need it this week (I know, 2 days to go).
> 
> Well, I think it's a good idea.  I also think I've said this before now...

yes, you have. You were also the only one to comment it last time when I 
mailed to the EPC board... I was just thinking that more than two votes 
in favor (mine included) would be nice ;-)

On the other hand no-one has objected yet...

/dario
-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From steve at canonical.com  Thu Feb  3 15:30:43 2005
From: steve at canonical.com (Steve Alexander)
Date: Thu Feb  3 15:30:49 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006	host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <420233F2.6020408@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>	<2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<420233F2.6020408@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <42023593.6080802@canonical.com>


> yes, you have. You were also the only one to comment it last time when I 
> mailed to the EPC board... I was just thinking that more than two votes 
> in favor (mine included) would be nice ;-)
> 
> On the other hand no-one has objected yet...

Am I on the board?

I think it is a good idea.

-- 
Steve Alexander
From faassen at infrae.com  Thu Feb  3 15:31:07 2005
From: faassen at infrae.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Thu Feb  3 15:30:50 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <420235AB.3020401@infrae.com>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:

> What they now need is a "Go!" decision from the EPC Community, and they 
> need it this week (I know, 2 days to go).

+1 from me

Regards,

Martijn
From aiste at pov.lt  Thu Feb  3 15:46:39 2005
From: aiste at pov.lt (Aiste Kesminaite)
Date: Thu Feb  3 15:46:43 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4202394F.3090904@pov.lt>

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+1 from POV, the only cconcern is hotel prices.

(as we usually travel in bulk :))

- --
Aiste Kesminaite
Managing director, Programmers of Vilnius
Phone: +370 6563 6462
Email: aiste@pov.lt
Web: www.pov.lt
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From bea at webwitches.com  Thu Feb  3 16:10:46 2005
From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine)
Date: Thu Feb  3 16:10:51 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC
	2006	host and organiser
In-Reply-To: <420233F2.6020408@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
	<2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net> <420233F2.6020408@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <1107443446.26779.357.camel@ogg.webwitches.com>

On Thu, 2005-02-03 at 15:23, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:

> yes, you have. You were also the only one to comment it last time when I 
> mailed to the EPC board... I was just thinking that more than two votes 
> in favor (mine included) would be nice ;-)
> 
> On the other hand no-one has objected yet...

I don't think it is the role of the EPC board to decide on that. I am a
member of the board purely because the conference was organised in
Sweden and a non-profit organisation (with a board) was required to act
as the bank account holder in the country, so I volunteered to put my
name down for last year's event. That doesn't make me into
decision-maker on where to move the conference. Technically we should
have a yearly board meeting soon anyway, at which any member of the EPC
board may withdraw or be kicked out, anyhow. If you want to make it a
board decision, there would have to be a board meeting.

i.m.h.o. the location for 2006 should be a community decision. I believe
it was quite clear last year that the general plan was to move town
after 2 years in the same town, currently G?teborg. I think CERN is a
nice next step. That's me talking, not the still-board member.

bea



-- 
bea@webwitches.com
"I will, as we say in rock 'n' roll, run until the wheels come off, 
because I love what I do." -- David Crosby

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb  3 16:25:53 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Feb  3 16:26:08 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC	2006	host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <1107443446.26779.357.camel@ogg.webwitches.com>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>	<2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<420233F2.6020408@ita.chalmers.se>
	<1107443446.26779.357.camel@ogg.webwitches.com>
Message-ID: <42024281.80203@ita.chalmers.se>

Beatrice Fontaine wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-02-03 at 15:23, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> I don't think it is the role of the EPC board to decide on that. 
...
> 
> i.m.h.o. the location for 2006 should be a community decision. 

correct, that is why no decision was made then and the reason I now sent 
the question to the mailling list (the community channel) for 
approval/denial.

> I think CERN is a
> nice next step. That's me talking, not the still-board member.

Thanks,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From mal at egenix.com  Thu Feb  3 16:28:15 2005
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu Feb  3 16:28:18 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4202430F.5030609@egenix.com>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> Hello people,
> 
> now that EPC 2005 is rolling and all sorts of practical details are 
> being taken care of, I would like draw your attention to EPC 2006. Yes, 
> that's next years EPC.
> 
> There is a proposal discussed off and on the list, that EPC 2006 be 
> hosted by CERN. There is a bunch of enthusiasts at CERN that are very, 
> very interested in hosting a EuroPython Conference, and 2006 is the best 
> candidate year for them.
> 
> ...
 >
> What they now need is a "Go!" decision from the EPC Community, and they 
> need it this week (I know, 2 days to go).

Go! ... (That was it ? ... I wish everything would be that easy ;-)

> *Therefore, I would like request that those who support this reply to 
> the list as soon as possible.*
> 
> This is a great opportunity to get even more great publicity for Python, 
>  not to mention that I think it would be really really cool and nice to 
> go to CERN to attend EPC 2006.
> 
> Please respond ASAP to the list with your thoughts.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Feb 03 2005)
 >>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
 >>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
 >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try mxODBC.Zope.DA for Windows,Linux,Solaris,FreeBSD for free ! ::::
From arigo at tunes.org  Thu Feb  3 16:29:59 2005
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Thu Feb  3 16:42:56 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <20050203152959.GB10047@vicky.ecs.soton.ac.uk>

Hi,

EuroPython 2006 at the CERN looks like a good idea to me too.

On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 01:31:20PM +0100, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> 1 CHF ~ 0.5 Euros.

Actually, it's rather 3 CHF ~ 2 Euros.  Switzerland is not cheap...


Armin
From jacob at strakt.com  Thu Feb  3 17:06:52 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Thu Feb  3 17:07:04 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <200502031706.52997.jacob@strakt.com>

I'm all for this, and I'm willing to help the new organisation committee to 
get started.

Jacob
From john at clocksoft.com  Thu Feb  3 18:52:46 2005
From: john at clocksoft.com (John Pinner)
Date: Thu Feb  3 18:52:57 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <200502031706.52997.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200502031706.52997.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <420264EE.7020307@clocksoft.com>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> I'm all for this, and I'm willing to help the new organisation committee to 
> get started.
> 
> Jacob

Sounds good!

+1

John
--

intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com)

From lac at strakt.com  Thu Feb  3 19:19:07 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu Feb  3 19:19:17 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure 
In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Withers <chris@simplistix.co.uk> 
	of "Thu, 03 Feb 2005 08:03:25 GMT." <4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk> 
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk> 
Message-ID: <200502031819.j13IJ7Aj003317@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>

In a message of Thu, 03 Feb 2005 08:03:25 GMT, Chris Withers writes:
>Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>> the structure is now online. I had to make some of the level 1 item 
>> titles shorter.
>> There are some more adjustments to be made in the left navigation 
>> portlet. But it will be easier to see what changes to do when content 
>> has been published.
>
>Just to say, the website is starting to look REALLY good :-)
>
>Little niggles:
>
>1. Was really slow to load when I just went there
>
>2. Can we drop the unlabelled and somewhat non - descript search box 
>floating about the top bar down into a box with a blue-bar header of 
>"Search" that appears under "Image of the day"?
>
>cheers,
>
>Chris
>
>-- 
>Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
>            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
>_______________________________________________
>EuroPython mailing list
>EuroPython@python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

search boxes belong at the top.  people who only come to the site to search
it hate to have to scroll to the bottom in order to get to work.

Laura
From lac at strakt.com  Thu Feb  3 19:57:42 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu Feb  3 19:57:46 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] mirroring europython.org 
In-Reply-To: Message from Jean-Marc Orliaguet <jmo@ita.chalmers.se> of "Thu,
	03 Feb 2005 14:20:15 +0100." <4202250F.4060104@ita.chalmers.se> 
References: <4202250F.4060104@ita.chalmers.se> 
Message-ID: <200502031857.j13IvgRW003798@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>


Sounds good to me.  

Laura 

In a message of Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:20:15 +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet writes:
>Hi!
>
>what about mirroring the europython site on a server at Chalmers?
>
>fetching the front page from here (Sweden) to the Netherlands takes 0.45s
>
>on the localhost (zope.nl) the front page gets loaded in 0.18s which 
>means that almost 0.3s get lost in the transfer between the server in 
>the Netherlands and Chalmers.
>
>We could set up a Squid locally at the university that people during the 
>conferene could use as a mirror of the main site.
>
>/JM
>_______________________________________________
>EuroPython mailing list
>EuroPython@python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
From lac at strakt.com  Thu Feb  3 20:07:48 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu Feb  3 20:07:52 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser 
In-Reply-To: Message from Michael Hudson <mwh@python.net> of "Thu,
	03 Feb 2005 14:13:05 GMT." <2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net> 
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
	<2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net> 
Message-ID: <200502031907.j13J7m15004496@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>


While Switzerland is a wonderful place to visit, and CERN is really cool,
I would be a lot happier if I knew exactly who the people who would be
organising things in Switzerland are, and why we should believe they
are capable of running conferences. Can we get something more formal
in the way of a proposal?

Laura
From jacob at strakt.com  Thu Feb  3 20:21:52 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Thu Feb  3 20:21:56 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Trouble working with the website
In-Reply-To: <41FFED42.6000409@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>
	<41FFED42.6000409@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <200502032021.52541.jacob@strakt.com>

On tisdag 1 februari 2005 21.57, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> Jacob Hall?n wrote:
> >Hi!
>
> Hi!
>
> >I have been trying to add some of our old contents to the new site, and I
> > have a few problems.
> >
> >1. I can't add to the general structure. I probably don't have privileges
> >enough. Do I need to make any modifications to the general structire or
> > will jmo and others handle that?
>
> I've create an 'EP' user group (with users that have already registered)
> and assigned the 'Section Manager' role to it, so now you can modify the
> general structure.
>
> >2. When I make a "Flexible Document", and try to make it lik to an Image,
> > in the same directory, it doesn't. I know you can have an image as a part
> > of the document, but that has its own problems. You can only have a few
> > text/image sections in one document, and I ran out. Is this because my
> > images are not published, or due to some other problem?
>
> That's right, the number can be increased from 3 to anything, 20 should
> be enough? The same goes with maximum file sizes. it can be increased
> from 3MB to anothing.

Ok, I'll check and see if the accomplishes the desired result. Why can't I 
link directly to pictures in the same folder? Can I put in full URL:s?
>
> >3. What is the planned workflow of the site? Do I write things in my own
> >directory and then publish them? If so, will others be able to modify my
> >writings? This is necessary, for things to work smoothly. All the core
> >organsiers should be able to edit anything on the site.
> >
> >Jacob
>
> You can put personal documents in your home folder and all other shared
> documents in the 'EP group' workspace.
>
> If you expect a document to be shared with others then put it directly
> in the 'EP group' so that others in the group can modified. Otherwise
> you can of course move already published documents from your home folder
> to the group folder and vice versa without affecting the published
> document.

I tried coying stuff from my folders to the common workspace, but I can't seem 
to find a way to do this. Do I have to build the objects from scratch again? 
I managed to make links to the objects in my workspace, but then it looks as 
if you can't edit the object through the link, which is not what I wanted.

Another thing I don't quite understand is where material goes, and how it 
should be named. I had assumed that in the "Accomodation folder, we would put 
an Object called "Europython special accomodation". Now there is a folder 
called "Europython special accomodation", so my guess is that we put 
something inside that folder. However, I don't know what type of object that 
should be or what it should be called.

My third problem is that I can't find where the texts for the first page are 
located. I intended to make a stab at replacing the fake texts with some real 
text.

Jacob
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb  3 20:31:47 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu Feb  3 20:43:13 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Trouble working with the website
In-Reply-To: <200502032021.52541.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>
	<41FFED42.6000409@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200502032021.52541.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42027C23.90009@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:

>
>I tried coying stuff from my folders to the common workspace, but I can't seem 
>to find a way to do this. Do I have to build the objects from scratch again? 
>I managed to make links to the objects in my workspace, but then it looks as 
>if you can't edit the object through the link, which is not what I wanted.
>
>  
>
hi
what you do is that you publish them under /sections/location or 
whatever .. by doing copy and paste (as it seems you've done already in 
http://europython-develop.zope.nl/sections/location/about_the_conference/ 
) this is the equivalent of publishing them all at the same time. The 
documents are then in the published state.

then you can move the work document from your home folder to the common 
workspace. By doing cut and paste.- ( if you do copy and paste you will 
create  *new* copies -- which is not what you want.) So do cut them 
before pasting them.

I've changed the default folder view to show 'folder contents'

>Another thing I don't quite understand is where material goes, and how it 
>should be named. I had assumed that in the "Accomodation folder, we would put 
>an Object called "Europython special accomodation". Now there is a folder 
>called "Europython special accomodation", so my guess is that we put 
>something inside that folder. However, I don't know what type of object that 
>should be or what it should be called.
>  
>
folders make sense if there is more than one document in them. Otherwise 
publishing a document in the  parent folder is simpler way of achieving 
the same thing. There is no equivalent of the "folder" where you add an 
"index_html" as in Plone.

It could be than some folders are redundant. We can remove them afterwards.

>My third problem is that I can't find where the texts for the first page are 
>located. I intended to make a stab at replacing the fake texts with some real 
>text.
>
>Jacob
>  
>

These are portlets, so you have to use the portlet editor. If you've got 
the text that should go in them I can replace them now,

regards /JM

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb  3 22:41:56 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu Feb  3 22:54:55 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Trouble working with the website
In-Reply-To: <200502032021.52541.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200502012151.26494.jacob@strakt.com>
	<41FFED42.6000409@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200502032021.52541.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42029AA4.1040804@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:

>
>I tried coying stuff from my folders to the common workspace, but I can't seem 
>to find a way to do this. Do I have to build the objects from scratch again? 
>I managed to make links to the objects in my workspace, but then it looks as 
>if you can't edit the object through the link, which is not what I wanted.
>  
>

Hi,

here is how to do it:
http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/move-to-ep-group.html

(again do a 'cut' & 'paste' if the documents are already published 
otherwise what you will put in the common workspace will be a copy of 
the original documents (unpublished))

when it comes to images inside documents, the only way to do it cleanly 
is to actually include the images in the document otherwise it will be 
impossible to move the documents or publish them in different places and 
there might be permission issues, wrong URLs to images, etc. (it only 
works if you do in-place publication as on a classic webserver or as in 
Plone).

So basically just add simple photos to documents, without text.(there is 
now a fourth option to add 'photos')
see: http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/photos.html

And this is what you get without all the links problems
http://europython-develop.zope.nl/sections/location/about_the_conference/venue

PS: the copy-and-paste way of publishing documents into sections does 
not seem to work (it is filed as bug #429 
http://bugs.nuxeo.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=429) so the only way of 
publishing documents right now is to click on the 'submit' action

regards /JM.

>
>Jacob
>  
>





From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb  3 23:18:33 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Feb  3 23:18:49 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <200502031907.j13J7m15004496@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>	<2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<200502031907.j13J7m15004496@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <4202A339.90600@ita.chalmers.se>

Laura Creighton wrote:
> While Switzerland is a wonderful place to visit, and CERN is really cool,
> I would be a lot happier if I knew exactly who the people who would be
> organising things in Switzerland are, and why we should believe they
> are capable of running conferences. Can we get something more formal
> in the way of a proposal?

Hi,

I am sure that intention of this letter is not so harsh and 
confrontational as it sounds, and a presentation is certainly in order 
(it needn't be a full-blown professional presentation ;-).

In the meanwhile, to somewhat statisfy Laura's and other's desire for 
background, I refer to a post on the list back in June 2004:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2004-June/004475.html

For a full description of the organising team, I'll leave it up to 
Benedict, since I am only an intermediary in this matter. At least this 
time it is more organised than the debate we had about organising EPC 
2004 :-)

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2003-July/thread.html

For a good reference, see Jacob's original Draft proposal for hosting 
EPC 2004:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2003-August/003419.html

Something similar to this would be nice.

Cheers,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Fri Feb  4 07:24:37 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Fri Feb  4 07:24:41 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <200502031819.j13IJ7Aj003317@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
	<200502031819.j13IJ7Aj003317@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42031525.2090504@simplistix.co.uk>

Laura Creighton wrote:
> 
> search boxes belong at the top.  people who only come to the site to search
> it hate to have to scroll to the bottom in order to get to work.

Yes, but if you don't know it's a search box, it's useless.

Given your comments, I agree it'd make more sense for the box to appear 
above the "image of the day"

cheers,

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Fri Feb  4 07:30:24 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Fri Feb  4 07:30:26 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <42031680.8030103@simplistix.co.uk>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:

> What they now need is a "Go!" decision from the EPC Community, and they 
> need it this week (I know, 2 days to go).

I bit late in my response, but +1 anyway :-)

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Fri Feb  4 10:40:30 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Fri Feb  4 10:40:33 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <4201F530.4030209@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
	<4201F530.4030209@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4203430E.70407@simplistix.co.uk>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> I noticed that too. The first loading of the page takes quite some until 
> all objects are in the cache (and there are quite a lot of objects on a 
> single page). Could have something to do with the zope object cache 
> settings?   The server is Zope-2.7.2 maybe it should upgraded to the 
> latest 2.7.4?

I don't think 2.7.2 to 2.7.4 will make much of a difference. I was 
hoping this was just a once off, but it was slow to load again this morning.

I don't have many ideas about this, but someone needs to analyse what's 
going on :-(

> yes I will do that.

Perfect :-)

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Fri Feb  4 10:46:11 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Fri Feb  4 10:58:18 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <4203430E.70407@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
	<4201F530.4030209@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4203430E.70407@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <42034463.1010406@ita.chalmers.se>

Chris Withers wrote:

> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>
>> I noticed that too. The first loading of the page takes quite some 
>> until all objects are in the cache (and there are quite a lot of 
>> objects on a single page). Could have something to do with the zope 
>> object cache settings?   The server is Zope-2.7.2 maybe it should 
>> upgraded to the latest 2.7.4?
>
>
> I don't think 2.7.2 to 2.7.4 will make much of a difference. I was 
> hoping this was just a once off, but it was slow to load again this 
> morning.
>
> I don't have many ideas about this, but someone needs to analyse 
> what's going on :-(
>

I've increased the size of the 'main_db' cache to 10000 objects, but it 
doesn't help when the cache is empty.
Zope-2.7.2 has two severe memory leaks, transciense issues, see 
http://zope.org/Products/Zope/2.7.4/CHANGES.txt - so I don't think it's 
a good choice, but this is not my choice.

If you want to do some monitoring there is a heartbeat DTML document 
(http://europython-develop.zope.nl/heartbeat) which is 1 object in zope  
and you should measure how much time it takes to wake it up (it took 3 
seconds last time I tried which is a bit high in my opininon..). The 
entire front page has about 500 objects.
 
but if we put a squid in front of it, there won't be any problem.
/JM
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Fri Feb  4 11:20:21 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Fri Feb  4 11:33:04 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] decorating folders
Message-ID: <42034C65.7000104@ita.chalmers.se>


Hi

Then when it comes to folders containing published documents, they 
should be decorated and not simply list folder contents since this 
function is already fulfilled by the navigation menu on the left and 
because when you navigate on a website you don't want to see folder 
listings as on your hard drive or as on an ftp server..

right now we have a site structure with 25 sections with a title and a 
description for each of them, what is missing is the text describing the 
content of each folder.

this animation shows how to add some text. but you can also add photos, etc.
http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/decorate-folders.html

the whole idea is to move from a document repository to a website that 
is easy to navigate. So the rule of the thumb is: if you are creating a 
page that contains other pages, create a sections (blue tabs) and 
publish documents in them, then decorate them ('edit') and the menu on 
the left will fulfill the "folder listing" function.
If the page that you are creating contains no other sub-pages then just 
publish it in a section.

/JM
From benedikt.hegner at cern.ch  Sat Feb  5 20:44:43 2005
From: benedikt.hegner at cern.ch (Benedikt Hegner)
Date: Sat Feb  5 20:44:56 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <4202A339.90600@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
	<2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<200502031907.j13J7m15004496@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<4202A339.90600@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <39d60f0a8f88d1f3971e55ad668162e8@cern.ch>

Hi,

to answer Laura?s question I will give you two names of the team.

- Michael Doran is responsible for Technology Transfer, Strategy & 
Planning. He is responsible for or involved in most of the conferences 
held at CERN. The last bigger one was: http://rsis.web.cern.ch/rsis/ . 
In his mind europython is a relatively small and easy to organize 
conference
- For several years Andreas Pfeiffer was member of the organizing 
committee of the CERN School of Computing.

There are a lot more people supporting us which are quite experienced 
in organizing conferences and bigger events. And what about myself? I 
was responsible for several smaller interdisciplinary conferences and 
seminars in Germany with up to 100 people. So the size of europython is 
new for me.

Since I have all our meeting notes in my office I couldn't prepare an 
extensive proposal which covers all points. Here is a short list of the 
most important points. A real proposal will follow if there is 
interest. Please let me know.

Cheers
Benedikt


Conference Rooms
==================
The conference will be mainly in CERN Bldg. 40
4 auditoriums for parallel sessions
1 auditorium for plenary sessions
several meeting rooms for 20-40 people

each room has at least one beamer
auditoriums equipped for videoconferencing


Computer infrastructure
========================
Every room has network outlets for 100MBit and sometimes 1GBit.
WLAN in the hole area
Conference printers
Helpdesk
Support from local IT division (equipment)


Local transportation
=========================
Geneve main station <-> CERN: 25 minutes by bus (about 2,30 SFr)
Airport <-> CERN: about 30 - 35 minutes by bus.
There is the idea to arrange a shuttle service from some hotels to CERN


Social activities
===============
You have the possibility to go to Geneva or to enjoy the countryside
around. The Jura Mountains are not far away. For sports we have one
football and one rugby field available at CERN.


Sprint space
============
We will have sprint space available from one week before the conference.


CERN Specials
===============
Visit one of the biggest research institutes in the world and _the_ 
institute for high energy physics
We will arrange special introductions for you to learn more about high
energy physics and the role of CERN in this business
Excursions to experiment areas


Accomodation
==================
There is a list of Hotels that offer special prices for CERN visitors 
and the prices range from 100 CHF for one person and 135 CHF for two, 
up to around 300 CHF for two persons, depending on the hotel (several 
of the hotels, even the cheaper ones, offer breakfast included).
For students/ academic staff there are hostels on CERN area: 55 CHF/ 
night . Maybe we can arrange something for non students.







From jacob at strakt.com  Sat Feb  5 20:58:16 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Sat Feb  5 20:58:19 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <39d60f0a8f88d1f3971e55ad668162e8@cern.ch>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se> <4202A339.90600@ita.chalmers.se>
	<39d60f0a8f88d1f3971e55ad668162e8@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <200502052058.16322.jacob@strakt.com>

Thanks Benedikt,

this is really useful and promising information. I personally look forward to 
attending Europython at CERN.

Jacob

On l?rdag 5 februari 2005 20.44, Benedikt Hegner wrote:
> Hi,
>
> to answer Laura?s question I will give you two names of the team.
>
> - Michael Doran is responsible for Technology Transfer, Strategy &
> Planning. He is responsible for or involved in most of the conferences
> held at CERN. The last bigger one was: http://rsis.web.cern.ch/rsis/ .
> In his mind europython is a relatively small and easy to organize
> conference
> - For several years Andreas Pfeiffer was member of the organizing
> committee of the CERN School of Computing.
>
> There are a lot more people supporting us which are quite experienced
> in organizing conferences and bigger events. And what about myself? I
> was responsible for several smaller interdisciplinary conferences and
> seminars in Germany with up to 100 people. So the size of europython is
> new for me.
>
> Since I have all our meeting notes in my office I couldn't prepare an
> extensive proposal which covers all points. Here is a short list of the
> most important points. A real proposal will follow if there is
> interest. Please let me know.
>
> Cheers
> Benedikt
>
>
> Conference Rooms
> ==================
> The conference will be mainly in CERN Bldg. 40
> 4 auditoriums for parallel sessions
> 1 auditorium for plenary sessions
> several meeting rooms for 20-40 people
>
> each room has at least one beamer
> auditoriums equipped for videoconferencing
>
>
> Computer infrastructure
> ========================
> Every room has network outlets for 100MBit and sometimes 1GBit.
> WLAN in the hole area
> Conference printers
> Helpdesk
> Support from local IT division (equipment)
>
>
> Local transportation
> =========================
> Geneve main station <-> CERN: 25 minutes by bus (about 2,30 SFr)
> Airport <-> CERN: about 30 - 35 minutes by bus.
> There is the idea to arrange a shuttle service from some hotels to CERN
>
>
> Social activities
> ===============
> You have the possibility to go to Geneva or to enjoy the countryside
> around. The Jura Mountains are not far away. For sports we have one
> football and one rugby field available at CERN.
>
>
> Sprint space
> ============
> We will have sprint space available from one week before the conference.
>
>
> CERN Specials
> ===============
> Visit one of the biggest research institutes in the world and _the_
> institute for high energy physics
> We will arrange special introductions for you to learn more about high
> energy physics and the role of CERN in this business
> Excursions to experiment areas
>
>
> Accomodation
> ==================
> There is a list of Hotels that offer special prices for CERN visitors
> and the prices range from 100 CHF for one person and 135 CHF for two,
> up to around 300 CHF for two persons, depending on the hotel (several
> of the hotels, even the cheaper ones, offer breakfast included).
> For students/ academic staff there are hostels on CERN area: 55 CHF/
> night . Maybe we can arrange something for non students.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
From ghum at gmx.net  Sat Feb  5 21:00:43 2005
From: ghum at gmx.net (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Sat Feb  5 21:01:04 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <39d60f0a8f88d1f3971e55ad668162e8@cern.ch>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>	<2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net>	<200502031907.j13J7m15004496@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>	<4202A339.90600@ita.chalmers.se>
	<39d60f0a8f88d1f3971e55ad668162e8@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <420525EB.6000605@gmx.net>

Benedikt,

that sound more than cool! I hope a good delegation of CERN will be to 
Goetheborg and present this!
I am more than sure that that will give a more than positive impression 
and attrackt even more people.

For myself ... I have now even 2 events to look forward to: EP 2005 and 
EP 2006

Harald

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From lac at strakt.com  Sat Feb  5 21:32:44 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sat Feb  5 21:32:56 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser 
In-Reply-To: Message from Benedikt Hegner <benedikt.hegner@cern.ch> of "Sat,
	05 Feb 2005 20:44:43 +0100." <39d60f0a8f88d1f3971e55ad668162e8@cern.ch>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
	<2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<200502031907.j13J7m15004496@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<4202A339.90600@ita.chalmers.se>
	<39d60f0a8f88d1f3971e55ad668162e8@cern.ch> 
Message-ID: <200502052032.j15KWirt011972@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>


This is looking really good, though experience has shown that Sprints
are better _after_ and not _before_ the conference.  (Unless, like
PyCon you schedule your conference just before Easter :-) ) People
who meet at the conference decide they want to Sprint afterwards.
I still think that it would be useful to provide some sort of
preliminary budget.  But it sure looks promising.

Laura Creighton

From benedikt.hegner at cern.ch  Sat Feb  5 22:01:25 2005
From: benedikt.hegner at cern.ch (Benedikt Hegner)
Date: Sat Feb  5 22:01:42 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] [Please read and respond!] We have an EPC 2006 host
	and organiser
In-Reply-To: <200502052032.j15KWirt011972@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <42021998.3020409@ita.chalmers.se>
	<2mpszh7mvi.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<200502031907.j13J7m15004496@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
	<4202A339.90600@ita.chalmers.se>
	<39d60f0a8f88d1f3971e55ad668162e8@cern.ch>
	<200502052032.j15KWirt011972@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <fb21289e2414fea8008cca29c67c5b2c@cern.ch>

Hello Laura,

thanks for this information about sprints. This can easily be changed 
if people want this. Regarding the budget - what do you want to know? I 
suggest an offlist discussion together with Dario.

  Benedikt


On 05.02.2005, at 21:32, Laura Creighton wrote:

>
> This is looking really good, though experience has shown that Sprints
> are better _after_ and not _before_ the conference.  (Unless, like
> PyCon you schedule your conference just before Easter :-) ) People
> who meet at the conference decide they want to Sprint afterwards.
> I still think that it would be useful to provide some sort of
> preliminary budget.  But it sure looks promising.
>
> Laura Creighton
>


From jacob at strakt.com  Sun Feb  6 02:08:30 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Sun Feb  6 02:08:34 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website to review
Message-ID: <200502060208.31024.jacob@strakt.com>

Please go to http://europython-develop.zope.nl/ and check out the website.

This is a quick transplantation of last years contents, with some new 
information. In particular, I would like help with the following:

- Check that there isn't any information that pertains to last year.

- If you are a track chair, review the information about your track, and send 
me a revised text. I have simply dropped in last years text in most cases.
(Track chairs will get a personal letter about this, since I'm not sure all 
track chairs are subscribed to the list.)

- Consider if there is any more information thst should go in.

The talk registration pages have bugs. This is a known problem. We will work 
on these in the beginning of next week.

Jacob
From jacob at strakt.com  Sun Feb  6 02:11:53 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Sun Feb  6 02:11:55 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] A few more web details to solve
Message-ID: <200502060211.53344.jacob@strakt.com>

1. On the venue page, my pictures get scaled to itty-bitty size. How do I get 
to keep them at original size?

2. I'd like my registration forms, which are not part of the CMS to look 
similar to the rest of the site. I don't know anything about CSS and stuff. 
How do I get a CSS that provides the necessary look&feel?

Jacob
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Sun Feb  6 12:22:52 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Sun Feb  6 12:43:42 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Website to review
In-Reply-To: <200502060208.31024.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200502060208.31024.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <4205FE0C.9010801@ita.chalmers.se>


Hi,

Just a note for section managers (Jacob, Laura, and I) about the workflow:

* copying documents from the workspaces to the sections won't work, i.e. 
documents will be present in the section folders, but they won't have 
followed any transition and be in the 'published' state. It is a 
half-implemented feature - maybe it should be removed. So the correct 
way of publishing documents is to go to the workspaces and click on the 
'submit' action. Users that are not section managers cannot do copy and 
paste so the problem occurs only if you are section manager.

  this is filed as bug #429 ( 
http://bugs.nuxeo.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=429 )

* if as a section manager you just do an 'edit' on a published document 
you will create a newer version of the document but the document in the 
workspace will still be in the older version, and other members will not 
have access to the latest version. So basically don't modify a document 
directly with 'edit' unless you are prepared to have it replaced by an 
older version later on by accident.

  this is filed as bug #443 ( 
http://bugs.nuxeo.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=443 )

basically section managers have too high privileges and some features 
should be disabled.

To sum it up:
create documents in the workspaces (in the "EP group") and publish them 
into the sections with 'submit'. Everything else is likely to leave the 
site in an relatively unmanageable state.

thanks
/JM
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Sun Feb  6 13:26:33 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Sun Feb  6 13:48:01 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: A few more web details to solve
In-Reply-To: <200502060211.53344.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200502060211.53344.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42060CF9.60302@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:

Hi!

>1. On the venue page, my pictures get scaled to itty-bitty size. How do I get 
>to keep them at original size?
>
>  
>
Actually the resizing is done in HTML (not on the actual pictures), so I 
think that I can remove it from the HTML code and the pictures will be 
shown as-is.

>2. I'd like my registration forms, which are not part of the CMS to look 
>similar to the rest of the site. I don't know anything about CSS and stuff. 
>How do I get a CSS that provides the necessary look&feel?
>
>  
>

the CSS file for the EP site can be downloaded from 
http://europython-develop.zope.nl/portal_themes/EP/renderCSS
but the class names must be the same otherwise it won't work. I will 
take a look at the forms and see how to set the correct markup so that 
you'll be able to link to the CSS file directly and get the same page style:

<style type="text/css" media="all">@import url(http://europython-develop.zope.nl/portal_themes/default/renderCSS);</style>


PS: I will soon add a text-only accessible view of the site for users 
that want a  fancy-free fast access to the information. see for ex. 
http://europython-develop.zope.nl/?page=text

/JM

>Jacob
>  
>

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Sun Feb  6 14:06:32 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Sun Feb  6 14:06:40 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: A few more web details to solve
In-Reply-To: <42060CF9.60302@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502060211.53344.jacob@strakt.com>
	<42060CF9.60302@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <42061658.7050106@ita.chalmers.se>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:

>
> PS: I will soon add a text-only accessible view of the site for users 
> that want a  fancy-free fast access to the information. see for ex. 
> http://europython-develop.zope.nl/?page=text
>
> /JM

fancyless  .. :-)

/JM
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Sun Feb  6 16:26:39 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Sun Feb  6 16:26:15 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: A few more web details to solve
In-Reply-To: <42061658.7050106@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502060211.53344.jacob@strakt.com>	<42060CF9.60302@ita.chalmers.se>
	<42061658.7050106@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4206372F.1030401@ita.chalmers.se>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> 
>>
>> PS: I will soon add a text-only accessible view of the site for users 
>> that want a  fancy-free fast access to the information. see for ex. 
>> http://europython-develop.zope.nl/?page=text
>>
>> /JM
> 
> 
> fancyless  .. :-)

eh... actually I find myself liking the minimalistic design the 
fancyless page has more than the purplish design the real site has :-)

/dario

PS: can we remove the purple background or is it too late in the 
process? If yes, go please do, if no, then no matter :)

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Sun Feb  6 19:27:09 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Sun Feb  6 19:29:02 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: A few more web details to solve
In-Reply-To: <4206372F.1030401@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502060211.53344.jacob@strakt.com>	<42060CF9.60302@ita.chalmers.se>
	<42061658.7050106@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4206372F.1030401@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4206617D.5010209@ita.chalmers.se>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:

> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>
>> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> PS: I will soon add a text-only accessible view of the site for 
>>> users that want a  fancy-free fast access to the information. see 
>>> for ex. http://europython-develop.zope.nl/?page=text
>>>
>>> /JM
>>
>>
>>
>> fancyless  .. :-)
>
>
> eh... actually I find myself liking the minimalistic design the 
> fancyless page has more than the purplish design the real site has :-)
>
> /dario
>
> PS: can we remove the purple background or is it too late in the 
> process? If yes, go please do, if no, then no matter :)
>

Well, this is what the fancyless page is made for... :-)  /JM

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Feb  7 00:15:33 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Mon Feb  7 00:20:42 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] site updates
Message-ID: <4206A515.3050703@ita.chalmers.se>



Hi!

* a stripped down version of the EP site is available by clicking on the 
"Text-only version" link (cookies must be allowed)
   click on "Graphic version" to get back to the default page.

Now comes the question of rotating banners.
* I've rewritten the code so that the rotation is now done on the 
server's side instead of having a client-side rotation in javascript. 
This is to  avoid cluttering the html code if there is going to be a lot 
more banners. Additional 468x60 banners can be added easily. (see the 
'custom_rotating_banner.py' script).

The text of the banners could also be shown in text version of the site 
(as they do for instance on Google - http://www.google.se/search?q=zope )

* Otherwise the image format for online ad images (non-rotating in the 
left column) is approx. 180-200px wide.

/JM
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From stefano at pragma2000.com  Mon Feb  7 10:26:30 2005
From: stefano at pragma2000.com (Stefano Masini)
Date: Mon Feb  7 10:28:31 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Banners and Google
Message-ID: <42073446.9030401@pragma2000.com>


Hello dear Europython organizers, thanks for your job.

I just want to spend a few words about banners.

Wouldn't it be usefull to have a "Links" section, where all the 
banners of all the sponsors are shown?

This way we would give Google a better chance to correctly index the 
europython website, I think. I'm not sure whether server-side rotating 
banners present a fair view to Google. It probably is limited to the 
banner that is shown when the spidering happens.

Personally I liked last year's solution where all the sporsors where 
listed in the home page. That gave terrific feedback to google, and 
since europython.org was ranked 8/10, I think sponsors must have been 
happy too.

But I do realize that this year's website is *a lot* better looking, 
and listing all the sponsors in the home page would probably not be 
appropriate.

That's my 2 cents...

ciao
stefano

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Feb  7 10:33:32 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Mon Feb  7 10:42:32 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Banners and Google
In-Reply-To: <42073446.9030401@pragma2000.com>
References: <42073446.9030401@pragma2000.com>
Message-ID: <420735EC.6090302@ita.chalmers.se>

Stefano Masini wrote:

>
> Hello dear Europython organizers, thanks for your job.
>
> I just want to spend a few words about banners.
>
> Wouldn't it be usefull to have a "Links" section, where all the 
> banners of all the sponsors are shown?
>
> This way we would give Google a better chance to correctly index the 
> europython website, I think. I'm not sure whether server-side rotating 
> banners present a fair view to Google. It probably is limited to the 
> banner that is shown when the spidering happens.
>
> Personally I liked last year's solution where all the sporsors where 
> listed in the home page. That gave terrific feedback to google, and 
> since europython.org was ranked 8/10, I think sponsors must have been 
> happy too.
>
> But I do realize that this year's website is *a lot* better looking, 
> and listing all the sponsors in the home page would probably not be 
> appropriate.
>
> That's my 2 cents...
>
> ciao
> stefano
>

Hi!

Would it make sense for Google to index image ads throughout the site 
instead of having all of them gathered on a same page? The top banner is 
rotating indeed, but there is also a space reserved under "Sponsors:" 
(left-column -bottom) for local banners, that are not rotating and that 
are different depending on the page that visitors are looking at.

So you can have Sponsor1 in "Tracks", Sponsor2 and Sponsor3 in "Events", 
Sponsor4 in "Events keynotes", etc.... These are just portlets located 
in different folders and at any place you can choose to override those 
located "above" in the site structure. There can be 1 or 10 ads per page 
or whatever.

It is also possible to gather all image ads on a same page but their 
visibility will be higher if they are spread across the entire site I 
guess.. Also it makes it possible to associate ads to a context.
 
regards
/JM
From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Mon Feb  7 11:18:48 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Mon Feb  7 11:19:25 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <42034463.1010406@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
	<4201F530.4030209@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4203430E.70407@simplistix.co.uk>
	<42034463.1010406@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <42074088.7050208@simplistix.co.uk>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> I've increased the size of the 'main_db' cache to 10000 objects, but it 
> doesn't help when the cache is empty.
> Zope-2.7.2 has two severe memory leaks, transciense issues, see 
> http://zope.org/Products/Zope/2.7.4/CHANGES.txt - so I don't think it's 
> a good choice, but this is not my choice.

Okay, well, an upgrade should be pretty easy right?

> but if we put a squid in front of it, there won't be any problem.

That is NOT the right solution to this problem...

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Feb  7 11:21:52 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Mon Feb  7 11:31:20 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <42074088.7050208@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
	<4201F530.4030209@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4203430E.70407@simplistix.co.uk>
	<42034463.1010406@ita.chalmers.se>
	<42074088.7050208@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <42074140.2080403@ita.chalmers.se>

Chris Withers wrote:

> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>
>> I've increased the size of the 'main_db' cache to 10000 objects, but 
>> it doesn't help when the cache is empty.
>> Zope-2.7.2 has two severe memory leaks, transciense issues, see 
>> http://zope.org/Products/Zope/2.7.4/CHANGES.txt - so I don't think 
>> it's a good choice, but this is not my choice.
>
>
> Okay, well, an upgrade should be pretty easy right?
>

Yes, it is easy, but can someone at amaze.nl upgrade to Zope.2.7.4?
I did some optimization in the theme renderer and the response time 
seems quite good.

>> but if we put a squid in front of it, there won't be any problem.
>
>
> That is NOT the right solution to this problem...
>
> Chris
>
this is right, Squid won't work either since the site is using cookies 
and the authenticated pages have the same addresses as the anonymous 
pages. However I am convinced that some sort of mirroring with ZEO would 
speed up the access for conference attendees.

/JM


From mwh at python.net  Mon Feb  7 13:58:26 2005
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon Feb  7 13:58:28 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <42074140.2080403@ita.chalmers.se> (Jean-Marc Orliaguet's
	message of "Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:21:52 +0100")
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se> <4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
	<4201F530.4030209@ita.chalmers.se> <4203430E.70407@simplistix.co.uk>
	<42034463.1010406@ita.chalmers.se> <42074088.7050208@simplistix.co.uk>
	<42074140.2080403@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <2mfz087ci5.fsf@starship.python.net>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet <jmo@ita.chalmers.se> writes:

> this is right, Squid won't work either since the site is using cookies
> and the authenticated pages have the same addresses as the anonymous
> pages. However I am convinced that some sort of mirroring with ZEO
> would speed up the access for conference attendees.

It seems fine to me now...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  faassen: anyway, if nothing else flapping your arms running around 
           will at least give an impression of activity. :)
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Feb  7 15:45:22 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Mon Feb  7 15:58:38 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <2mfz087ci5.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>	<4201F530.4030209@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4203430E.70407@simplistix.co.uk>	<42034463.1010406@ita.chalmers.se>
	<42074088.7050208@simplistix.co.uk>	<42074140.2080403@ita.chalmers.se>
	<2mfz087ci5.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <42077F02.2030101@ita.chalmers.se>

Michael Hudson wrote:

>Jean-Marc Orliaguet <jmo@ita.chalmers.se> writes:
>
>  
>
>>this is right, Squid won't work either since the site is using cookies
>>and the authenticated pages have the same addresses as the anonymous
>>pages. However I am convinced that some sort of mirroring with ZEO
>>would speed up the access for conference attendees.
>>    
>>
>
>It seems fine to me now...
>
>Cheers,
>mwh
>
>  
>

Hi!
Well, the site got another speed boost since almost everything except 
the main document is now cached in RAM.
especially the menu on the left that was the part that took the most 
time to render.
see: http://www.medic.chalmers.se/~jmo/ep2005/ep-cache.png

so maybe it will be enough with server-side caching.

/JM
From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Tue Feb  8 11:00:43 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Tue Feb  8 11:00:46 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Menu structure
In-Reply-To: <42074140.2080403@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502012201.48755.jacob@strakt.com>
	<4200E43E.2090207@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4201DACD.9090307@simplistix.co.uk>
	<4201F530.4030209@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4203430E.70407@simplistix.co.uk>
	<42034463.1010406@ita.chalmers.se>
	<42074088.7050208@simplistix.co.uk>
	<42074140.2080403@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <42088DCB.1000701@simplistix.co.uk>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> this is right, Squid won't work either since the site is using cookies 
> and the authenticated pages have the same addresses as the anonymous 
> pages. However I am convinced that some sort of mirroring with ZEO would 
> speed up the access for conference attendees.

My point is that this site is simple enough that it should not need 
caching. We're not talking about thousands of logged-in users and 
gigabytes of content...

Probably a good idea to find out whether it's memory shortage or 
processor hogging that's causing the delay.

In either case, find out what's taking up so much resource ;-)

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From stefano at pragma2000.com  Tue Feb  8 16:12:51 2005
From: stefano at pragma2000.com (Stefano Masini)
Date: Tue Feb  8 16:14:55 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Banners and Google
In-Reply-To: <420735EC.6090302@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42073446.9030401@pragma2000.com>
	<420735EC.6090302@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4208D6F3.9010106@pragma2000.com>


Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:

> Stefano Masini wrote:
> 
>> Wouldn't it be usefull to have a "Links" section, where all the 
>> banners of all the sponsors are shown?
>>
>> This way we would give Google a better chance to correctly index the 
>> europython website, I think. I'm not sure whether server-side rotating 
>> banners present a fair view to Google. It probably is limited to the 
>> banner that is shown when the spidering happens.

[...]

> Would it make sense for Google to index image ads throughout the site 
> instead of having all of them gathered on a same page? The top banner is 
> rotating indeed, but there is also a space reserved under "Sponsors:" 
> (left-column -bottom) for local banners, that are not rotating and that 
> are different depending on the page that visitors are looking at.
> 
> So you can have Sponsor1 in "Tracks", Sponsor2 and Sponsor3 in "Events", 
> Sponsor4 in "Events keynotes", etc.... These are just portlets located 
> in different folders and at any place you can choose to override those 
> located "above" in the site structure. There can be 1 or 10 ads per page 
> or whatever.
> 
> It is also possible to gather all image ads on a same page but their 
> visibility will be higher if they are spread across the entire site I 
> guess.. Also it makes it possible to associate ads to a context.

Hello Jean-Marc,

unfortunately Google does not work this way. It is true that the 
spider takes into consideration all the pages of the web site, but 
then each one gets ranked differently. For example, the home page of 
Europython 2004 is ranked 8/10 (which is a remarkable ranking, I 
should point out), but the "Attending" section is 7/10 and the 
talkMatrix, weird enough, is not even ranked.

Therefore, if we want to give proper credit to the sponsors, they 
should all be listed in the home page, so that their websites are 
linked from a rank 8 web *page* (not site). Google seems to like this 
kind of links very much.

I propose to leave the site the way it is, and simply adding a portlet 
in the homepage. Something like this:

Sponsors:
www.foo.com, bla bla
www.bar.com, how nice
www.my.com, this web site
www.web.com, is so nice
www.site.com, you see
...

Maybe even as the very last of the portlets. It doesn not have to be 
for humans, but for robots. It only needs to present a list of links, 
together with a 2 or 3 words payoff.

I think this is important for effective sponsoring. After all, search 
engine ranking is what matters in marketing nowadays.

Let me know what you guys think/know about it.

ciao,
stefano

From lac at strakt.com  Wed Feb  9 15:40:46 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed Feb  9 15:40:50 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] I want to make track overview clickable 
Message-ID: <200502091440.j19EekM5014157@theraft.strakt.com>

I want to make all of these things:
    * Business
    * Education
    * Lightning talks
    * Python Frameworks
    * Python Language
    * Refereed papers
    * Science
    * Social skills/General topics
    * Tutorials/Neopythes
    * Zope Lightning talks
    * Zope/Plone

Link to their own section in 'Propose a talk'.

How do I do that?  If somebody could do that for just one of them, then I could
do it for the rest.

Thanks very much,
Laura Creighton
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Feb  9 16:44:16 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Wed Feb  9 16:52:38 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] I want to make track overview clickable
In-Reply-To: <200502091440.j19EekM5014157@theraft.strakt.com>
References: <200502091440.j19EekM5014157@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <420A2FD0.5020504@ita.chalmers.se>

Laura Creighton wrote:

>I want to make all of these things:
>    * Business
>    * Education
>    * Lightning talks
>    * Python Frameworks
>    * Python Language
>    * Refereed papers
>    * Science
>    * Social skills/General topics
>    * Tutorials/Neopythes
>    * Zope Lightning talks
>    * Zope/Plone
>
>Link to their own section in 'Propose a talk'.
>
>How do I do that?  If somebody could do that for just one of them, then I could
>do it for the rest.
>
>Thanks very much,
>Laura Creighton
>  
>

Hi, look at the example, I've added a list at the top.

  <li><a href="#business">Business</a></li>

then add anchors before each header in each track

  <a name="business" title="Business"></a>
 <h2>Business</h2>


regards
/JM

From lac at strakt.com  Wed Feb  9 17:20:50 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed Feb  9 17:20:55 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] I want to make track overview clickable 
In-Reply-To: Message from Jean-Marc Orliaguet <jmo@ita.chalmers.se> of "Wed,
	09 Feb 2005 16:44:16 +0100." <420A2FD0.5020504@ita.chalmers.se> 
References: <200502091440.j19EekM5014157@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A2FD0.5020504@ita.chalmers.se> 
Message-ID: <200502091620.j19GKo25029586@theraft.strakt.com>


Thanks very much.

Laura

In a message of Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:44:16 +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet writes:
>Laura Creighton wrote:
>
>>I want to make all of these things:
>>    * Business
>>    * Education
>>    * Lightning talks
>>    * Python Frameworks
>>    * Python Language
>>    * Refereed papers
>>    * Science
>>    * Social skills/General topics
>>    * Tutorials/Neopythes
>>    * Zope Lightning talks
>>    * Zope/Plone
>>
>>Link to their own section in 'Propose a talk'.
>>
>>How do I do that?  If somebody could do that for just one of them, then 
>I could
>>do it for the rest.
>>
>>Thanks very much,
>>Laura Creighton
>>  
>>
>
>Hi, look at the example, I've added a list at the top.
>
>  <li><a href="#business">Business</a></li>
>
>then add anchors before each header in each track
>
>  <a name="business" title="Business"></a>
> <h2>Business</h2>
>
>
>regards
>/JM
From lac at strakt.com  Wed Feb  9 22:47:48 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed Feb  9 22:47:50 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site?
Message-ID: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>

I would like the pulldown for 'Sprints and Wikis' to go directly to the Wiki.
If you look at 
'Propose a Sprint' you will see the problem  -- I don't want to go to
http://europython-develop.zope.nl/sections/sprints_and_wiki/propose_a_sprint
but to http://www.python.org/moin/EuroPython2005 direct.

How do I do that?

Thanks very much,
Laura
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Feb  9 23:10:48 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Wed Feb  9 23:23:07 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site?
In-Reply-To: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>

Laura Creighton wrote:

>I would like the pulldown for 'Sprints and Wikis' to go directly to the Wiki.
>If you look at 
>'Propose a Sprint' you will see the problem  -- I don't want to go to
>http://europython-develop.zope.nl/sections/sprints_and_wiki/propose_a_sprint
>but to http://www.python.org/moin/EuroPython2005 direct.
>
>How do I do that?
>
>Thanks very much,
>Laura
>  
>

Hi Laura,

the pulldown shown the site structure, i.e. a tree structure. Since the 
wiki lies outside the tree structure it does not appear as a link but it 
is possible to set an inline javascript redirection on the page to get 
redirected to the wiki.

as for instance:

<script language="JavaScript">
  function redirect_to_wiki() {
      window.location = 'http://www.python.org/moin/EuroPython2005';
  }
  setTimeout("redirect_to_wiki()", 2000);
</script>

I have set the timeout to 2seconds (2000) to test it - but I can be 
reduced to one second or half a second. Press 'Esc' to stop the 
countdown....

PS: now that the main site structure which is there, you can start 
publishing documents into it
Documents, like events, news, etc appear on the front page as opposed to 
the site structure folders which are static.

regards

/JM
From lac at strakt.com  Wed Feb  9 23:33:31 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed Feb  9 23:33:36 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site? 
In-Reply-To: Message from Jean-Marc Orliaguet <jmo@ita.chalmers.se> of "Wed,
	09 Feb 2005 23:10:48 +0100." <420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se> 
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se> 
Message-ID: <200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>


Ah, this works, but now showing the document portlet also makes it redirect to
that page, which means I cannot edit it ...  Is this a framework bug?

Laura

In a message of Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:10:48 +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet writes:
>Laura Creighton wrote:
>
>>I would like the pulldown for 'Sprints and Wikis' to go directly to the 
>Wiki.
>>If you look at 
>>'Propose a Sprint' you will see the problem  -- I don't want to go to
>>http://europython-develop.zope.nl/sections/sprints_and_wiki/propose_a_sp
>rint
>>but to http://www.python.org/moin/EuroPython2005 direct.
>>
>>How do I do that?
>>
>>Thanks very much,
>>Laura
>>  
>>
>
>Hi Laura,
>
>the pulldown shown the site structure, i.e. a tree structure. Since the 
>wiki lies outside the tree structure it does not appear as a link but it 
>is possible to set an inline javascript redirection on the page to get 
>redirected to the wiki.
>
>as for instance:
>
><script language="JavaScript">
>  function redirect_to_wiki() {
>      window.location = 'http://www.python.org/moin/EuroPython2005';
>  }
>  setTimeout("redirect_to_wiki()", 2000);
></script>
>
>I have set the timeout to 2seconds (2000) to test it - but I can be 
>reduced to one second or half a second. Press 'Esc' to stop the 
>countdown....
>
>PS: now that the main site structure which is there, you can start 
>publishing documents into it
>Documents, like events, news, etc appear on the front page as opposed to 
>the site structure folders which are static.
>
>regards
>
>/JM
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Feb  9 23:35:32 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Wed Feb  9 23:48:06 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site?
In-Reply-To: <200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se>

Laura Creighton wrote:

>Ah, this works, but now showing the document portlet also makes it redirect to
>that page, which means I cannot edit it ...  Is this a framework bug?
>
>Laura
>
>  
>
I have removed it, so it should work now.. Just click on 'edit' and 
change the timeout to '10' for instance...

in:

setTimeout("redirect_to_wiki()", 2000);

maybe we should open a new window instead since the back button from 
python.org won't work.

/JM

From lac at strakt.com  Wed Feb  9 23:52:57 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed Feb  9 23:53:00 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site? 
In-Reply-To: Message from Jean-Marc Orliaguet <jmo@ita.chalmers.se> of "Wed,
	09 Feb 2005 23:35:32 +0100." <420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se> 
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se> 
Message-ID: <200502092252.j19MqvIo017456@theraft.strakt.com>

I don't want to make any pages that I cannot edit.  I cannot trust me to get
it right the first time, since I have no idea what I want until I try things
a bit.  Is what i want impossible?

Laura  (who also doesn't know the javascript for 'open this on a new page' and why
that is any different from the command you already sent me).

In a message of Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:35:32 +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet writes:
>Laura Creighton wrote:
>
>>Ah, this works, but now showing the document portlet also makes it redir
>ect to
>>that page, which means I cannot edit it ...  Is this a framework bug?
>>
>>Laura
>>
>>  
>>
>I have removed it, so it should work now.. Just click on 'edit' and 
>change the timeout to '10' for instance...
>
>in:
>
>setTimeout("redirect_to_wiki()", 2000);
>
>maybe we should open a new window instead since the back button from 
>python.org won't work.
>
>/JM
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Feb  9 23:48:23 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu Feb 10 00:01:06 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site?
In-Reply-To: <200502092252.j19MqvIo017456@theraft.strakt.com>
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200502092252.j19MqvIo017456@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <420A9337.6060604@ita.chalmers.se>

Laura Creighton wrote:

>I don't want to make any pages that I cannot edit.  I cannot trust me to get
>it right the first time, since I have no idea what I want until I try things
>a bit.  Is what i want impossible?
>
>  
>

as I said earlier the pulldown menu shows documents *inside* the site. 
The Wiki page lies outside the site. So either put a link and trust the 
ability of users to click on the link. Or use some javascript to do the 
redirection.

If you'd create a document that links directly to the wiki you wouldn't 
be able to edit it anyway since clicking on it would take you to the 
wiki ...


>Laura  (who also doesn't know the javascript for 'open this on a new page' and why
>that is any different from the command you already sent me).
>
>  
>

this one opens a new window:

<script language="JavaScript">
  function newWindow(url) {
    mywindow=window.open(url, 'selector', "height=760, location=no, 
menubar=yes, status=yes, toolbar=yes, resizable=yes");
    mywindow.location.href = url;
    mywindow.focus();
    if (mywindow.opener == null) mywindow.opener = self;
  }

  function redirect_to_wiki() {
      newWindow('http://www.python.org/moin/EuroPython2005');
  }

  setTimeout("redirect_to_wiki()", 500);
</script>
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb 10 00:59:32 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu Feb 10 01:00:41 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Banners and Google
In-Reply-To: <4208D6F3.9010106@pragma2000.com>
References: <42073446.9030401@pragma2000.com>
	<420735EC.6090302@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4208D6F3.9010106@pragma2000.com>
Message-ID: <420AA3E4.9030702@ita.chalmers.se>

Stefano Masini wrote:

>
> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>
>> Stefano Masini wrote:
>>
>>> Wouldn't it be usefull to have a "Links" section, where all the 
>>> banners of all the sponsors are shown?
>>>
>>> This way we would give Google a better chance to correctly index the 
>>> europython website, I think. I'm not sure whether server-side 
>>> rotating banners present a fair view to Google. It probably is 
>>> limited to the banner that is shown when the spidering happens.
>>
>
> [...]
>
>> Would it make sense for Google to index image ads throughout the site 
>> instead of having all of them gathered on a same page? The top banner 
>> is rotating indeed, but there is also a space reserved under 
>> "Sponsors:" (left-column -bottom) for local banners, that are not 
>> rotating and that are different depending on the page that visitors 
>> are looking at.
>>
>> So you can have Sponsor1 in "Tracks", Sponsor2 and Sponsor3 in 
>> "Events", Sponsor4 in "Events keynotes", etc.... These are just 
>> portlets located in different folders and at any place you can choose 
>> to override those located "above" in the site structure. There can be 
>> 1 or 10 ads per page or whatever.
>>
>> It is also possible to gather all image ads on a same page but their 
>> visibility will be higher if they are spread across the entire site I 
>> guess.. Also it makes it possible to associate ads to a context.
>
>
> Hello Jean-Marc,
>
> unfortunately Google does not work this way. It is true that the 
> spider takes into consideration all the pages of the web site, but 
> then each one gets ranked differently. For example, the home page of 
> Europython 2004 is ranked 8/10 (which is a remarkable ranking, I 
> should point out), but the "Attending" section is 7/10 and the 
> talkMatrix, weird enough, is not even ranked.
>
> Therefore, if we want to give proper credit to the sponsors, they 
> should all be listed in the home page, so that their websites are 
> linked from a rank 8 web *page* (not site). Google seems to like this 
> kind of links very much.
>
> I propose to leave the site the way it is, and simply adding a portlet 
> in the homepage. Something like this:
>
> Sponsors:
> www.foo.com, bla bla
> www.bar.com, how nice
> www.my.com, this web site
> www.web.com, is so nice
> www.site.com, you see
> ...
>
> Maybe even as the very last of the portlets. It doesn not have to be 
> for humans, but for robots. It only needs to present a list of links, 
> together with a 2 or 3 words payoff.
>
> I think this is important for effective sponsoring. After all, search 
> engine ranking is what matters in marketing nowadays.
>
> Let me know what you guys think/know about it.
>
> ciao,
> stefano
>

Hi!

it is possible to add the links on the front-page and hide them with 
some CSS markup which won't make any difference for robots.

But when it comes to humans, having links at the bottom of a page all 
gathered in a same area is not as good an idea as for robots. I think 
that I totally ignored the links on EP 2004 because I had no reason to 
scroll down the page. Had the image ads been shown individually at 
different places on the site I probably would have noticed them.

So I can agree that linking from a 8/10 ranking page is important -- it 
means more incoming traffic -- at least if the visitors actually see the 
links. Then maybe a page that does not get ranked at google will 
generate a lot of traffic inside the site, so it is a matter of balance.

Where can you see the rank of a page/site on Google?
/JM
From stefano at pragma2000.com  Thu Feb 10 09:04:06 2005
From: stefano at pragma2000.com (Stefano Masini)
Date: Thu Feb 10 09:06:11 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Banners and Google
In-Reply-To: <420AA3E4.9030702@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <42073446.9030401@pragma2000.com>
	<420735EC.6090302@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4208D6F3.9010106@pragma2000.com>
	<420AA3E4.9030702@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <420B1576.4010404@pragma2000.com>


Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:

> it is possible to add the links on the front-page and hide them with 
> some CSS markup which won't make any difference for robots.

Yes, that is surely a good idea. It looks like a good solution.
Let's just make sure that the html contains both the links and the 
payoffs, so that the robots will be able to index properly.
Something like:

<div class="invisible">
   <a href="www.site.com">Site, doing bla bla</a>
   <a href="www.company.com">Company, the best in bla bla</a>
   <a href="www.mywebsite.com">My web site, how cool I am</a>
</div>

> But when it comes to humans, having links at the bottom of a page all 
> gathered in a same area is not as good an idea as for robots. I think 
> that I totally ignored the links on EP 2004 because I had no reason to 
> scroll down the page. Had the image ads been shown individually at 
> different places on the site I probably would have noticed them.

I agree.
The look of EP 2005 website is *a lot* better.

> So I can agree that linking from a 8/10 ranking page is important -- it 
> means more incoming traffic -- at least if the visitors actually see the 
> links. Then maybe a page that does not get ranked at google will 
> generate a lot of traffic inside the site, so it is a matter of balance.

Having a link to website B from a highly ranked website A is a good 
thing not only because all the many visitors of A will see the link to 
B, but mainly because Google will decide that B is important too.
It's the way Google works. If a highly ranked web page links to 
another page, then the ranking of the linked page will increase.
And being highly ranked is good because when you search something on 
Google, the highest ranked pages are shown earlier.
That's why when you search "python europe" you get europython.org as 
the first result: because it's an impressive rank 8/10 (associated of 
course with the keywords "python" and "europe"). If it was a 4/10 it 
would have probably been on the second page...

> Where can you see the rank of a page/site on Google?

There are browser plugins that query google for ranking and show it to 
you. The protocol is not documented, and Google itself distributes a 
plugin for Internet Explorer. But some folks reverse engineered the 
protocol and wrote a plugin for Firefox.

Internet Explorer: Google Toolbar, http://toolbar.google.com/

Mozilla Firefox Extension: Search Status v1.2
https://addons.update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefox&version=1.0&os=Windows&numpg=10&id=321


From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Thu Feb 10 10:06:37 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Thu Feb 10 10:07:07 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site?
In-Reply-To: <420A9337.6060604@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092252.j19MqvIo017456@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A9337.6060604@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <420B241D.9040601@simplistix.co.uk>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:

> as I said earlier the pulldown menu shows documents *inside* the site. 
> The Wiki page lies outside the site. So either put a link and trust the 
> ability of users to click on the link. Or use some javascript to do the 
> redirection.

Can you not rustle up a "link" content object which, when you go to it 
directly (ie: /folder/mylink) returns a response.redirect to the value 
of the object's 'link' field?

When you go to mylink/link_view you get a normal view of the content 
object, likewise with edit?

cheers,

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb 10 10:18:15 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu Feb 10 10:21:00 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site?
In-Reply-To: <420B241D.9040601@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092252.j19MqvIo017456@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A9337.6060604@ita.chalmers.se>
	<420B241D.9040601@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <420B26D7.9030202@ita.chalmers.se>

Chris Withers wrote:

> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>
>> as I said earlier the pulldown menu shows documents *inside* the 
>> site. The Wiki page lies outside the site. So either put a link and 
>> trust the ability of users to click on the link. Or use some 
>> javascript to do the redirection.
>
>
> Can you not rustle up a "link" content object which, when you go to it 
> directly (ie: /folder/mylink) returns a response.redirect to the value 
> of the object's 'link' field?
>
> When you go to mylink/link_view you get a normal view of the content 
> object, likewise with edit?
>
> cheers,
>
> Chris


Yes, indeed, it's easy but the thing is that the link widget is used on 
other pages,  so I'd have to create a new type of widget just f?r that...

But anyway, since the document portlet that showed rendered pages has 
been removed from the editing pages, the code can now be edited without 
the earlier redirection problem..

So the problem is solved already:
- put the javascript code (redirection / open a new page)  in the edit 
field of the "Propose a track" folder.
- save the changes

* to modify the inline script:
- go to the folder
- edit the folder
- modify the javascript code
- save the changes.

the only problem with the redirection is that the 'back' button won't 
work once one has left the site, but it should be easy to fix.  So the 
question is : redirection or new window?

Otherwise I don't understand why Laura says that it's impossible? is the 
problem the javascript code itself or the annoying redirection issue? 
because for visitors it looks very much possible :-).

regards /JM
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Feb 10 11:17:46 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu Feb 10 11:20:44 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Banners and Google
In-Reply-To: <420B1576.4010404@pragma2000.com>
References: <42073446.9030401@pragma2000.com>
	<420735EC.6090302@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4208D6F3.9010106@pragma2000.com>
	<420AA3E4.9030702@ita.chalmers.se>
	<420B1576.4010404@pragma2000.com>
Message-ID: <420B34CA.4080303@ita.chalmers.se>

Stefano Masini wrote:

>
> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>
>> it is possible to add the links on the front-page and hide them with 
>> some CSS markup which won't make any difference for robots.
>
>
> Yes, that is surely a good idea. It looks like a good solution.
> Let's just make sure that the html contains both the links and the 
> payoffs, so that the robots will be able to index properly.
> Something like:
>
> <div class="invisible">
>   <a href="www.site.com">Site, doing bla bla</a>
>   <a href="www.company.com">Company, the best in bla bla</a>
>   <a href="www.mywebsite.com">My web site, how cool I am</a>
> </div>
>
Hi,
thanks for the info

I've reorganized the scripts a bit. I've put all sponsors in a list 
(custom_get_sponsors.py set in Zope's ram cache) and there is also an 
invisible portlet on the front page under "contact information" that 
shows the content of http://europython-develop.zope.nl/custom_list_sponsors
(do a "View source" for instance)

/JM
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From lac at strakt.com  Thu Feb 10 15:00:08 2005
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu Feb 10 15:00:18 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site? 
In-Reply-To: Message from Jean-Marc Orliaguet <jmo@ita.chalmers.se> of "Thu,
	10 Feb 2005 10:18:15 +0100." <420B26D7.9030202@ita.chalmers.se> 
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200502092252.j19MqvIo017456@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A9337.6060604@ita.chalmers.se>
	<420B241D.9040601@simplistix.co.uk>
	<420B26D7.9030202@ita.chalmers.se> 
Message-ID: <200502101400.j1AE091J031626@theraft.strakt.com>

In a message of Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:18:15 +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet writes:

>
>But anyway, since the document portlet that showed rendered pages has 
>been removed from the editing pages, the code can now be edited without 
>the earlier redirection problem..

That was the problem that I had, when the rendered page was shown, I got the redirect,
which meant that I couldn't edit the page to make the redirect go someplace else.
Thanks very much,

Laura

From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Fri Feb 11 09:09:33 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Fri Feb 11 09:09:37 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site?
In-Reply-To: <420B26D7.9030202@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092252.j19MqvIo017456@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A9337.6060604@ita.chalmers.se>
	<420B241D.9040601@simplistix.co.uk>
	<420B26D7.9030202@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <420C683D.40702@simplistix.co.uk>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> the only problem with the redirection is that the 'back' button won't 
> work once one has left the site, but it should be easy to fix.  So the 
> question is : redirection or new window?

*shrugs*

I'm just allergic to meta-refresh redirect javascript nonesense ;-)

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Fri Feb 11 09:38:54 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Fri Feb 11 09:48:46 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site?
In-Reply-To: <420C683D.40702@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092252.j19MqvIo017456@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A9337.6060604@ita.chalmers.se>
	<420B241D.9040601@simplistix.co.uk>
	<420B26D7.9030202@ita.chalmers.se>
	<420C683D.40702@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <420C6F1E.1010204@ita.chalmers.se>

Chris Withers wrote:

> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>
>> the only problem with the redirection is that the 'back' button won't 
>> work once one has left the site, but it should be easy to fix.  So 
>> the question is : redirection or new window?
>
>
> *shrugs*
>
> I'm just allergic to meta-refresh redirect javascript nonesense ;-)
>
> Chris
>


The whole thing is about fixing a UI weirdness. A navigation menu is not 
designed in the first place to redirect the user to another site without 
warning - it makes the interaction with the site unpredictable - so I 
believe that it is a good thing that the current menu doesn't allow 
those kinds of links. For that functionality you should use a box marked 
as "External links"... or integrate the wiki inside the site.

/JM
From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Mon Feb 14 11:49:02 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Mon Feb 14 11:49:32 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site?
In-Reply-To: <420C6F1E.1010204@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092252.j19MqvIo017456@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A9337.6060604@ita.chalmers.se>
	<420B241D.9040601@simplistix.co.uk>
	<420B26D7.9030202@ita.chalmers.se>
	<420C683D.40702@simplistix.co.uk>
	<420C6F1E.1010204@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <4210821E.6010605@simplistix.co.uk>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> The whole thing is about fixing a UI weirdness. A navigation menu is not 
> designed in the first place to redirect the user to another site without 
> warning - it makes the interaction with the site unpredictable - so I 
> believe that it is a good thing that the current menu doesn't allow 
> those kinds of links. For that functionality you should use a box marked 
> as "External links"... or integrate the wiki inside the site.

*shrugs* I can empathise with this point of view but I don't agree with it.

A navigation menu is for navigating. If some of the resources are not at 
the current domain name, then they need an "external link". Can it be 
that hard to do something like:

tal:attributes="href 
python:test(getattr(item,'external',none),item.url,item.absolute_url())"

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Feb 14 13:26:22 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Mon Feb 14 13:27:11 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How do you make links go from the pulldown menus
	directly off the site?
In-Reply-To: <4210821E.6010605@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <200502092147.j19LlmW3008832@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A8A68.2070201@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092233.j19MXVlc015005@theraft.strakt.com>	<420A9034.8000508@ita.chalmers.se>	<200502092252.j19MqvIo017456@theraft.strakt.com>
	<420A9337.6060604@ita.chalmers.se>
	<420B241D.9040601@simplistix.co.uk>
	<420B26D7.9030202@ita.chalmers.se>
	<420C683D.40702@simplistix.co.uk>
	<420C6F1E.1010204@ita.chalmers.se>
	<4210821E.6010605@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <421098EE.1020206@ita.chalmers.se>

Chris Withers wrote:

> Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>
>> The whole thing is about fixing a UI weirdness. A navigation menu is 
>> not designed in the first place to redirect the user to another site 
>> without warning - it makes the interaction with the site 
>> unpredictable - so I believe that it is a good thing that the current 
>> menu doesn't allow those kinds of links. For that functionality you 
>> should use a box marked as "External links"... or integrate the wiki 
>> inside the site.
>
>
> *shrugs* I can empathise with this point of view but I don't agree 
> with it.
>
> A navigation menu is for navigating. If some of the resources are not 
> at the current domain name, then they need an "external link". Can it 
> be that hard to do something like:
>
> tal:attributes="href 
> python:test(getattr(item,'external',none),item.url,item.absolute_url())"
>
> Chris
>

Hi Chris,
this is not very effective in terms of performance.

test(condition, A, B) evaluates all three values no matter the result of 
the test, i.e.
- getattr(item,'external',none)
- item.url
- item.absolute_url()

so even if 'getattr(item,'external',none)' is  false, item.url will be 
evaluate which will cause an AttributeError exception.

then getattr(item, 'external', none) is not acquisition-safe so there is 
a risk that you will get an attribute of the container object.

the current implementation instead fetches the menu items directly from 
the tree cache without getting to the items themselves, which is much 
more efficient.

the url rewrite should be placed in the Apache configuration instead.

/JM
From dulce_hdkwe8 at yahoo.com.br  Wed Feb 16 05:44:35 2005
From: dulce_hdkwe8 at yahoo.com.br (dulce)
Date: Wed Feb 16 04:49:36 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Listas de e-mails: http://www.gueb.de/segmails
Message-ID: <qk8h7z--$$9j-i-8vlssn2t1mh6g06@xnysm>

Listas de e-mails selecionadas:

Visite agora:
http://www.gueb.de/segmails

Cadastros de e-mails para mala direta, divulgaÿFFFFE7ÿFFFFE3o de sites,
listas de e-mails,mailing list,listagem,cadastros,listas de e-mail,marketing direto,mmv,publicidade,divulgaÿFFFFE7ÿFFFFE3o,mp3,e-mails segmentados,home
page,bulk mail,playboy,propaganda,maladireta,maling list,sexo

bulk mail,mailing list,e-maling,listas,cadastros,email,emaiu,emeiu,emaiu,emaius

E-mails para Mala Direta/Marketing Direto genÿFFFFE9ricos ou segmentados
por ramo de atividade,sexo,idade,cidade,estado
Visite agora: 

http://www.gueb.de/segmails
From KWF6 at ITS-5  Wed Feb 16 10:46:40 2005
From: KWF6 at ITS-5 (KWF6@ITS-5)
Date: Wed Feb 16 16:02:13 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] KWF delivery failure notification
Message-ID: <SERVERbeUzmRf6Ci6nx00000347@e1000.ru>


KWF was unable to deliver message. Remote server's reply:
	550 This message contains a virus or other harmful content (Worm.SomeFool.P)
Message headers follow:

From: europython@python.org
To: elen@suhminvod.ru
Subject: Re: Order
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:44:51 +0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016----=_NextPart_000_0016"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
From CathleenB at concord.etransmail4.com  Wed Feb 16 19:36:57 2005
From: CathleenB at concord.etransmail4.com (Cathleen Baer)
Date: Wed Feb 16 17:18:35 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How new Check 21 legislation is affecting you...
Message-ID: <26498578.1108570681756.JavaMail.customerService@etransmail4.com>

Good Afternoon!

Recenty intrdocuced legislation requires business and home users to print personal and business checks with security blank check stock and magnetic ink.
Please find qualified suppliers at Google by clicking on the followingl link.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLC,GGLC:1969-53,GGLC:en&q=blank+check+paper%2C+magnetic+ink+for+inkjets


Thank you very much. 

Cathleen Baer                                     
Marketing & Relationship Representative
Globalzon Consulting Group 


From tau_bernstorff_lehmann at post.tele.dk  Thu Feb 17 00:40:18 2005
From: tau_bernstorff_lehmann at post.tele.dk (tau_bernstorff_lehmann@post.tele.dk)
Date: Thu Feb 17 00:40:20 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2005 dates is week 23 or 27/6 - 1/7?
Message-ID: <20050216234018.12F6C47FE1C@pfepa.post.tele.dk>

The dates on Europyton.org is incoherent. I am hoping for week 23 (6/6 - 10/6) instead of week 26 (27/6 - 1/7).

Could you please corect the error (and maybe send a reply with the correct dates)

Thank You and hope to see you in june

Anders Lehmann
From huima at iki.fi  Wed Feb 23 10:01:19 2005
From: huima at iki.fi (Heimo Laukkanen)
Date: Wed Feb 23 10:02:15 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Scheduling call for papers and acceptance of talks
Message-ID: <opsmm7chgjiddoij@tietokone-heimo-laukkanen.local>

Hi ya all,

I just had a talk with Paul Everitt about the call for papers and making  
sure that the quality of the presentations will be high. We would like to  
do following on the Zope-track and ask comments/thoughts from others.

Marketing:
   - start spreading the word about dates as soon as possible
   - contact some individuals and companies personally to get their  
commitment on participation and possible talks
   - publish some ideas about schedule structure:
       - ie. talks on 3 CMS:ses ( Plone, Silva, CPS )
       - some off scheduletime activity and networking
   - get as fixed schedule / talklist out as soon as possible

Talk acceptance:
   - have a fixed quite early due time for proposed talks ( end of April? )
   - require the actual presentation to be submitted ( we've been very  
flexible with this previously )
   - revise and improve presentations with authors when/if needed

This is just to make sure that people don't feel too  comfortable on what  
they already know and try to scrap up the presentations an hour before the  
presentation. However the presenters have the possibility to evolve and  
develope the talks before the conference, as long as they have a good talk  
and structure ready by the deadlines.

Any comments?

-- 
-huima
From CathleenB at concord.etransmail4.com  Wed Feb 23 22:59:06 2005
From: CathleenB at concord.etransmail4.com (Cathleen Baer)
Date: Wed Feb 23 22:59:38 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] How new Check 21 legislation is affecting you...
Message-ID: <6316772.1109195946572.JavaMail.customerService@etransmail4.com>

Good Afternoon!

Recenty intrdocuced legislation requires business and home users to print personal and business checks with security blank check stock and magnetic ink.
Please find qualified suppliers at Google by clicking on the followingl link.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLC,GGLC:1969-53,GGLC:en&q=blank+check+paper%2C+magnetic+ink+for+inkjets


Thank you very much. 

Cathleen Baer                                     
Marketing & Relationship Representative
Globalzon Consulting Group 


From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Thu Feb 24 10:53:14 2005
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Thu Feb 24 10:53:31 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Scheduling call for papers and acceptance of talks
In-Reply-To: <opsmm7chgjiddoij@tietokone-heimo-laukkanen.local>
References: <opsmm7chgjiddoij@tietokone-heimo-laukkanen.local>
Message-ID: <421DA40A.8060602@simplistix.co.uk>

Heimo Laukkanen wrote:
> Talk acceptance:
>   - require the actual presentation to be submitted ( we've been very  
> flexible with this previously )

Why is this a requirement?

 > This is just to make sure that people don't feel too  comfortable on
 > what  they already know and try to scrap up the presentations an hour
 > before the  presentation.

This doesn't feel too valid to me. I didn't experience this with any of 
the presentations given last year, do other people feel that this was a 
problem?

I have 2 issues with it:

1. Often the most appropriate time to write talks is the 8-10 hrs it 
takes to commute to the conference.

2. Events often overtake things that are written months before. We work 
in a particularly dynamic environment, requiring a presentation to be 
set in stone months before the conference seems like putting an 
artificial block on how relevent a presentation is...

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
From haraldarminmassa at gmail.com  Thu Feb 24 11:18:36 2005
From: haraldarminmassa at gmail.com (Harald Armin Massa)
Date: Thu Feb 24 11:18:40 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Scheduling call for papers and acceptance of talks
In-Reply-To: <421DA40A.8060602@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <opsmm7chgjiddoij@tietokone-heimo-laukkanen.local>
	<421DA40A.8060602@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7be3f35d05022402181ff9e50f@mail.gmail.com>

Let me second Chris,

>  > This is just to make sure that people don't feel too  comfortable on
>  > what  they already know and try to scrap up the presentations an hour
>  > before the  presentation.
> 
> This doesn't feel too valid to me. I didn't experience this with any of
> the presentations given last year, do other people feel that this was a
> problem?

Just to give some date: I did two presentations on Europython 2004.
"Quixote. Pythonic. Web" and "Selling Pyhtoneers"

"Selling Pyhtoneers" was more than 2 hours; the slides were created on
the two evenings before. At least 30% of "Selling Pythoneers" was
created on the fly in response to the participants.

I remember that physically small and mentally more than great Zope
guy, he did a presentation with well prepared slides which he did not
really use - his presentation was exceptionally joyfull because he
presented with the people and not for the sake of slides.

Jesus did not have Powerpoint(TM) at all, and still people are talking
about his preaching on the mountains.

Mark Shuttleworth had some funny and some impressive slides; the earth
from above and him in cosmonautic gear was great - BUT: I am more than
sure if he did the same presentation without beamer at a fireplace,
the reduction in joy would be no more than .3%

I for myself would rather forbid people to use slides than force them
to deploy them early. We use a language without static typing; why
should we force people to use static presentations?

(shameless plug: I offer consulting for presentation techniques,
better call it "presentation mindset")

Harald



-- 
GHUM Harald Massa
- holistic presentation methods -.
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstra?e 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607
From johan at lavasystems.se  Sat Feb 26 06:14:52 2005
From: johan at lavasystems.se (Johan Nilsson)
Date: Sat Feb 26 06:14:59 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Speaker in Stockholm, late April
Message-ID: <422005CC.80107@lavasystems.se>

Hello,

I am writing on behalf of EurOpen.SE.

We will arrange a Swedish version of the Danish Linux Forum conferance 
together with SNUS (Swedish Network Users' Society).

It will be held on a Saturday and Sunday in late April in Stockholm, Sweden.
The conferance will run in two tracks with mixed subjects.
The registration fee will be in parity with the Danish Linux Forum, 
20-30 EUR.

We are looking for a Swedish speaker for a 45-60min session about Python.
Can you recommend speakers for this?
Any help would be much appreciated.

Regards
Johan Nilsson

-- 
--
----------------------------------------------------
Johan Nilsson           Email:  johan@lavasystems.se
Lava Systems AB         Phone:  +46 8 448 10 74
Pl?jarv?gen 62          Mobile: +46 708 17 31 76
SE-137 40 V?sterhaninge M. Fax: +46 708 17 41 76
----------------------------------------------------

From paul at zope-europe.org  Sun Feb 27 12:31:39 2005
From: paul at zope-europe.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 12:31:45 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Scheduling call for papers and acceptance of talks
In-Reply-To: <421DA40A.8060602@simplistix.co.uk>
References: <opsmm7chgjiddoij@tietokone-heimo-laukkanen.local>
	<421DA40A.8060602@simplistix.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cc321e1a0ecbb8fe6a607dc34c1ffeb3@zope-europe.org>


On Feb 24, 2005, at 9:53 AM, Chris Withers wrote:

> Heimo Laukkanen wrote:
>> Talk acceptance:
>>   - require the actual presentation to be submitted ( we've been very 
>>  flexible with this previously )
>
> Why is this a requirement?

During the Plone Con in Vienna, I noticed lots of people sitting 
outside.  I asked a few what were the reasons.  The main one was, they 
liked to socialize. :^)  However, some folks also seemed disappointed 
with the quality of some presentations.

I'm interested in ways to address.  One choice is, as we've suggested, 
ask people to prepare in advance.  Benefits: people don't throw 
something together at the last minute, we attract people that are 
naturally more prepared, and we have time to interact via a review 
process.

This is pretty well understood, for anyone that has done a refereed 
paper.

Downsides: as Harald noted, we might scare off people that are good 
presenters, presentation material isn't nearly as important as the 
speaker (they should be minimal, in fact), and it increases the work on 
Paul/Heimo.

If anybody has some better suggestions on how we can improve the 
presentation quality, let us know.   Equally, if people feel that 
improving the quality isn't a needed goal, speak up on that too.

> > This is just to make sure that people don't feel too  comfortable on
> > what  they already know and try to scrap up the presentations an hour
> > before the  presentation.
>
> This doesn't feel too valid to me. I didn't experience this with any 
> of the presentations given last year, do other people feel that this 
> was a problem?
>
> I have 2 issues with it:
>
> 1. Often the most appropriate time to write talks is the 8-10 hrs it 
> takes to commute to the conference.

We plan to reserve huge chunks of time, perhaps each afternoon after 
the break, for lightning talks.

Personally, I think it is unfair to the 90 people in the audience that 
paid good money to travel, to suffer through someone that waited 8-10 
hours in advance to work on their presentation.  In some cases, the 
speaker can pull it off.  In many cases, the presentation could have 
used some refinement and practice.

Thus, give some arguments from the point of view of the 80, not the 1.  
How can we make this better for the audience?

> 2. Events often overtake things that are written months before. We 
> work in a particularly dynamic environment, requiring a presentation 
> to be set in stone months before the conference seems like putting an 
> artificial block on how relevent a presentation is...

We *have* to choose the presentations in advance.  We can't wait until 
the last moment to choose presentations.  Last year, we were asked to 
move up the deadline so chosen speakers could book tickets at a lower 
fare.  In some cases, the speakers have to get their organizations to 
book the tickets and that takes a while.

Quite obviously, we can't make an informed choice on a presentation 
with a title and 50 word description, unless we know the person.  That 
becomes unfair to the new people who haven't presented.

--Paul

From paul at zope-europe.org  Sun Feb 27 12:35:46 2005
From: paul at zope-europe.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 12:35:43 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Scheduling call for papers and acceptance of talks
In-Reply-To: <7be3f35d05022402181ff9e50f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <opsmm7chgjiddoij@tietokone-heimo-laukkanen.local>
	<421DA40A.8060602@simplistix.co.uk>
	<7be3f35d05022402181ff9e50f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7a4b52c5c647d07d77ce0cf28448cbb7@zope-europe.org>


I totally agree with you, that presentation material is overrated and 
should be subservient to the presenter.  And yes, this fact is mostly 
missed by terrified speakers that recite their bulleted lists to the 
audience. :^)

Still, we need *some* kind of metric on which to base talk selection.  
Your recipe below works when the speaker is good.  Not all speakers are 
good.  We could ask people, in their talk proposals, to indicate 
whether or not they are good speakers, but I don't think that will 
help. :^)

Again, should we try to improve the quality?   If there isn't a strong 
opinion that this needs attention, Heimo and I will drop it.  If it is 
worth looking into, though, how can we achieve it?

--Paul

On Feb 24, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Harald Armin Massa wrote:

> Let me second Chris,
>
>>> This is just to make sure that people don't feel too  comfortable on
>>> what  they already know and try to scrap up the presentations an hour
>>> before the  presentation.
>>
>> This doesn't feel too valid to me. I didn't experience this with any 
>> of
>> the presentations given last year, do other people feel that this was 
>> a
>> problem?
>
> Just to give some date: I did two presentations on Europython 2004.
> "Quixote. Pythonic. Web" and "Selling Pyhtoneers"
>
> "Selling Pyhtoneers" was more than 2 hours; the slides were created on
> the two evenings before. At least 30% of "Selling Pythoneers" was
> created on the fly in response to the participants.
>
> I remember that physically small and mentally more than great Zope
> guy, he did a presentation with well prepared slides which he did not
> really use - his presentation was exceptionally joyfull because he
> presented with the people and not for the sake of slides.
>
> Jesus did not have Powerpoint(TM) at all, and still people are talking
> about his preaching on the mountains.
>
> Mark Shuttleworth had some funny and some impressive slides; the earth
> from above and him in cosmonautic gear was great - BUT: I am more than
> sure if he did the same presentation without beamer at a fireplace,
> the reduction in joy would be no more than .3%
>
> I for myself would rather forbid people to use slides than force them
> to deploy them early. We use a language without static typing; why
> should we force people to use static presentations?
>
> (shameless plug: I offer consulting for presentation techniques,
> better call it "presentation mindset")
>
> Harald
>
>
>
> -- 
> GHUM Harald Massa
> - holistic presentation methods -.
> Harald Armin Massa
> Reinsburgstra?e 202b
> 70197 Stuttgart
> 0173/9409607

From nico at logilab.fr  Sun Feb 27 21:25:34 2005
From: nico at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Sun Feb 27 21:25:36 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Scheduling call for papers and acceptance of talks
In-Reply-To: <cc321e1a0ecbb8fe6a607dc34c1ffeb3@zope-europe.org>
References: <opsmm7chgjiddoij@tietokone-heimo-laukkanen.local>
	<421DA40A.8060602@simplistix.co.uk>
	<cc321e1a0ecbb8fe6a607dc34c1ffeb3@zope-europe.org>
Message-ID: <20050227202534.GA28128@crater.logilab.fr>

On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 11:31:39AM +0000, Paul Everitt wrote:

> liked to socialize. :^)  However, some folks also seemed disappointed 
> with the quality of some presentations.
>
> ask people to prepare in advance.  Benefits: people don't throw 
> something together at the last minute, we attract people that are 
> naturally more prepared, and we have time to interact via a review 
> process.
> 
> This is pretty well understood, for anyone that has done a refereed 
> paper.

+1

> We plan to reserve huge chunks of time, perhaps each afternoon after 
> the break, for lightning talks.

+1

> Personally, I think it is unfair to the 90 people in the audience that 
> paid good money to travel, to suffer through someone that waited 8-10 
> hours in advance to work on their presentation.  In some cases, the 
> speaker can pull it off.  In many cases, the presentation could have 
> used some refinement and practice.
> 
> Thus, give some arguments from the point of view of the 80, not the 1.  

+1

> We *have* to choose the presentations in advance.  We can't wait until 
> the last moment to choose presentations.  Last year, we were asked to 
> move up the deadline so chosen speakers could book tickets at a lower 
> fare.  In some cases, the speakers have to get their organizations to 
> book the tickets and that takes a while.
> 
> Quite obviously, we can't make an informed choice on a presentation 
> with a title and 50 word description, unless we know the person.  That 
> becomes unfair to the new people who haven't presented.

+1


If we quit dreaming about the "we're lonesome coder kings and we're also
so good at presenting things that we don't need to get prepared" theme,
which is IMHO a pure lie, we might get a chance to improve the quality
of europython. Never wondered why scientific conferences had a review
process ? Because it actually helps forcing wannabe nobel-prize winners 
into doing their homework *before* the conference and come with arguments
that can stand 5 min under public scrutiny. Well-run confrences, at least.
Being good at saying things in public does not mean you say interesting 
things and I would bet that people travelling to sweden have theaters 
with funny shows and plays closer to where they live. 

Let's focus on valuable well-prepared python content for talks, open up
space for tons of lightning presentations and if need be open a "I can
entertain you all with python jokes and poor content" track.

BTW, I've been trying to get slides well ahead of time for the Science
Track and the more interesting talks I had where almost always the one
that got ready first (and helping authors with questions and remarks
often increased quality too).

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Feb 28 12:31:26 2005
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Mon Feb 28 12:31:57 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2006 at CERN Update
Message-ID: <4223010E.8060801@ita.chalmers.se>

Hello list and Benedikt,

FYI: after the discussion on the list about EPC 2006, and per Benedikts 
suggestion, I sent a letter to CERN, inviting them to host EPC 2006.

I am happy to report that I today have received a positive reply from 
CERN stating that they support the organisation of EPC 2006 in CERN.

Hopefully this will be as big a success as previous EPC have been and as 
this years' EPC is turning out to be.

Sincerely,

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
"...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again..." - b using macosx
From rev_anna_r at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 28 00:40:25 2005
From: rev_anna_r at yahoo.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Mon Feb 28 15:38:33 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] RIP Jeff Raskin
Message-ID: <862687f2f8251efeb0c9202bb61eae50@yahoo.com>

Just thought folks might want to know:

Jeff Raskin, who spoke at EuroPython last year, has died of cancer at 
age 61.

http://www.differentdistrict.com/more.php?id=2359_0_25_0_M

From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Feb 28 20:02:13 2005
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Mon Feb 28 20:02:15 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Things that need doing
Message-ID: <200502282002.13298.jacob@strakt.com>

Hi!

This is a list of things that are getting rather high on the urgency agenda. 
I'd like to send out the announcement that we are accepting talks befiore 
Friday:

1. All track chairmen need to review and update their entries on the website.

Some of you haven't. You know who you are. Please do it now. We are waiting 
for you!

2. Fix the last bug in the talks registration.

I'm working on this. Should be done in a day or two.

3. Get some real sponsor banners in place instead of the fake ones.

I'll try to find/make a Strakt one. I assume that getting a Chalmers one 
should be easy (jmo or dario?). Other sponsors will be put in as soon as they 
have their materials ready.

4. Publish the website.

jmo. Do we know how this is done? Where does the old site go? Can we link to 
it?

5. Publish that we are accepting talks.

Volunteers?

After this urgent phase is over, we need to do some more things:

- Finish the registration forms.

This is my job. I'm learning how right now.

- Make credit card payments work.

joakimS?

- Make a new design for a T-shirt

Last years T-shirt picture had many colours and had to be made as a transfer. 
I would prefer to have a 2-colour print (or possibly 3-colour one). This way 
we can use a screen printing process, which produces a nicer surface (IMHO).

Volunteer to talk to Vincent?

- Instruct track chairmen in the use of the registration system

You can use the system to do a bunch of cool things. You can use the system to 
track email conversations with the speakers. You can handle presentations. 
You can deal with speaker biographies (and track if the speakers have 
registered for the conference).

Best regards

Jacob

 
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Feb 28 20:05:18 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Mon Feb 28 20:19:57 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Things that need doing
In-Reply-To: <200502282002.13298.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <200502282002.13298.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <42236B6E.5040208@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hall?n wrote:

>Hi!
>
>  
>
Hi!

>This is a list of things that are getting rather high on the urgency agenda. 
>I'd like to send out the announcement that we are accepting talks befiore 
>Friday:
>
>1. All track chairmen need to review and update their entries on the website.
>
>Some of you haven't. You know who you are. Please do it now. We are waiting 
>for you!
>
>2. Fix the last bug in the talks registration.
>
>I'm working on this. Should be done in a day or two.
>
>3. Get some real sponsor banners in place instead of the fake ones.
>
>I'll try to find/make a Strakt one. I assume that getting a Chalmers one 
>should be easy (jmo or dario?). Other sponsors will be put in as soon as they 
>have their materials ready.
>  
>

yes, that's great. the banner format by the way is the standard 468x60 
pixels. - this is important.

and possibly a half-skyscraper (160 x 320 Pixels) in the left column of 
the site (under 'sponsors')
(I'll put one of these on a page so that people get an idea)

file sizes should not exceed 20 Kbytes if possible

what is also required is a URL, a title and a very short description of 
the sponsor.

>4. Publish the website.
>
>jmo. Do we know how this is done? Where does the old site go? Can we link to 
>it?
>  
>
I believe that the webmasters at amaze.nl will do this, the old site 
should get a new name though so that we can link to it.

PS: -  I have switched to a tableless renderer for the layout - if there 
are problems with some browsers I can switch back to tables..
       - There is a glitch in the navigation menu under IE in 
second-level pages (and not on the front-page for some reason) which I'm 
going to fix.
       - The Structured Text renderer that shows documents will be 
replaced by a ReStructuredText renderer since the content from the Plone 
site seems to have been written in ReST.

cheers /JM
From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Feb 28 20:27:17 2005
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Mon Feb 28 20:42:09 2005
Subject: [EuroPython] Things that need doing
In-Reply-To: <42236B6E.5040208@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <200502282002.13298.jacob@strakt.com>
	<42236B6E.5040208@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <42237095.9050107@ita.chalmers.se>

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:

> Jacob Hall?n wrote:
>
>>
>> 3. Get some real sponsor banners in place instead of the fake ones.
>>
>> I'll try to find/make a Strakt one. I assume that getting a Chalmers 
>> one should be easy (jmo or dario?). Other sponsors will be put in as 
>> soon as they have their materials ready.
>>  
>>
>
> ....
> and possibly a half-skyscraper (160 x 320 Pixels) in the left column 
> of the site (under 'sponsors')
> (I'll put one of these on a page so that people get an idea)
>
> file sizes should not exceed 20 Kbytes if possible
>
> what is also required is a URL, a title and a very short description 
> of the sponsor.
>
Hi,
as an illustration: here is an example of a 160x320 pixel banner (simply 
an Image portlet with a link and a caption).
http://europython-develop.zope.nl/sections/accomodation/medium_price_hotels

it is shown in all subfolders, and it is possible to have it overriden  
with another banner from any folder below it in the site structure.

/JM