From rishabhr123 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 16:02:41 2014
From: rishabhr123 at gmail.com (Rishabh Raj)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 19:32:41 +0530
Subject: [EuroPython] Regarding the Schedule For EuroPython'14
Message-ID: <CAOC-s3SmPCi8K=SfKc6O0XchqEbJPefQA=cscdFmKZ0RTqUHyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
When do we expect to have the schedule announced? The Call for proposals,
on the website @ CFP <https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/event/cfp/%20> shows
30th March as the deadline ..

Also when do we get the final result on the acceptance of proposals?

Best,
Rishabh Raj
International Institute of Information Technology
Gachibowli, Hyderabad 500032
Ph: +917842797467
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From ep at zopyx.com  Wed Apr  2 16:36:47 2014
From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:36:47 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Regarding the Schedule For EuroPython'14
In-Reply-To: <CAOC-s3SmPCi8K=SfKc6O0XchqEbJPefQA=cscdFmKZ0RTqUHyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOC-s3SmPCi8K=SfKc6O0XchqEbJPefQA=cscdFmKZ0RTqUHyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2CD3978E-81C3-41DD-BD0D-284F2A40437E@zopyx.com>

We hope that we can announce a schedule in a few days.

Andreas
Am 02.04.2014 um 16:02 schrieb Rishabh Raj <rishabhr123 at gmail.com>:

> Hi,
> When do we expect to have the schedule announced? The Call for proposals, on the website @ CFP shows 30th March as the deadline ..
> 
> Also when do we get the final result on the acceptance of proposals?
> 
> Best,
> Rishabh Raj
> International Institute of Information Technology 
> Gachibowli, Hyderabad 500032 
> Ph: +917842797467
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014 ? Berlin, 21th?27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


From lynn at lynnroot.com  Tue Apr 15 11:28:50 2014
From: lynn at lynnroot.com (Lynn Root)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 02:28:50 -0700
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
Message-ID: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>

To the EuroPython organizers, talk reviewers, and community at large,

For those of you who do not know me, I am a board member of the Python
Software Foundation, the founder and leader of PyLadies San Francisco,
and an engineer at Spotify.  I have been a speaker at the last two
EuroPythons, with 3 talks last year, and a keynote the year before.

I see that the list of preliminarily talks are publicly available. Side
stepping my issue with lack of communication to proposers of talks at
large, I am writing to bring light to the lack of diversity of the
current list of talks, and propose some action items.

There is how I understand things as they are. Please correct me if I am
wrong.

- talk selection was/is being done blindly, as in no identifying
information about the speaker is revealed
- there are very little women on that preliminary talk list slated to
speak
- there are multiple selected speakers slated to give multiple selected
talks

If you do not find a problem with item #2 and #3, please read this
article [1] about importance of diversity in a technical field.

Here are my suggestions to rectify this issue:
- limit speakers to only give one talk. Yes this means going back on the
original acceptance.
- reopen CfP and reach out to PyLadies globally to help get the word
out. As one of the main leaders of the global organization, I know this
did not happen originally.
- re-review the talks. Give preference or help for those who would be
first time speakers. First time speakers may need far more help writing
a proposal tailored to the EuroPython audience. As reviewers, you have
an understanding of the EP community and should help pull up new
speakers.
- related to #2, and #3, have open office hours  or create general
availability during the time that the CfP is reopened to help those who
want it craft a good proposal.
- select talks for the remainder of the program with the context of the
preliminarily talks in mind.

I understand that the blind selection process was meant in good faith to
remove bias. However, the result is troubling, and needs to be looked at
in context. If this preliminary list has any influence on the actual
program, the conference will suffer in terms of overall diversity in
attendance. I'm not writing to discuss the merit of diversity at a tech
conference, because I have faith that the reviewers and organizers
already grasp its importance. But this email is to address what I feel
needs to change.

Thank you,

Lynn Root

[1]
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/technology/technologys-man-problem.html?_r=0

From markuszapke at gmx.net  Tue Apr 15 11:56:44 2014
From: markuszapke at gmx.net (=?windows-1252?Q?Markus_Zapke-Gr=FCndemann?=)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:56:44 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <534D025C.1030801@gmx.net>

Lynn Root schrieb:
> To the EuroPython organizers, talk reviewers, and community at large,
> 
> For those of you who do not know me, I am a board member of the Python
> Software Foundation, the founder and leader of PyLadies San Francisco,
> and an engineer at Spotify.  I have been a speaker at the last two
> EuroPythons, with 3 talks last year, and a keynote the year before.
> 
> I see that the list of preliminarily talks are publicly available. Side
> stepping my issue with lack of communication to proposers of talks at
> large, I am writing to bring light to the lack of diversity of the
> current list of talks, and propose some action items.
> 
> There is how I understand things as they are. Please correct me if I am
> wrong.
> 
> - talk selection was/is being done blindly, as in no identifying
> information about the speaker is revealed
> - there are very little women on that preliminary talk list slated to
> speak
> - there are multiple selected speakers slated to give multiple selected
> talks
> 
> If you do not find a problem with item #2 and #3, please read this
> article [1] about importance of diversity in a technical field.
> 
> Here are my suggestions to rectify this issue:
> - limit speakers to only give one talk. Yes this means going back on the
> original acceptance.
> - reopen CfP and reach out to PyLadies globally to help get the word
> out. As one of the main leaders of the global organization, I know this
> did not happen originally.
> - re-review the talks. Give preference or help for those who would be
> first time speakers. First time speakers may need far more help writing
> a proposal tailored to the EuroPython audience. As reviewers, you have
> an understanding of the EP community and should help pull up new
> speakers.
> - related to #2, and #3, have open office hours  or create general
> availability during the time that the CfP is reopened to help those who
> want it craft a good proposal.
> - select talks for the remainder of the program with the context of the
> preliminarily talks in mind.
> 
> I understand that the blind selection process was meant in good faith to
> remove bias. However, the result is troubling, and needs to be looked at
> in context. If this preliminary list has any influence on the actual
> program, the conference will suffer in terms of overall diversity in
> attendance. I'm not writing to discuss the merit of diversity at a tech
> conference, because I have faith that the reviewers and organizers
> already grasp its importance. But this email is to address what I feel
> needs to change.
Thank you for pointing out that problem, Lynn. Speaking of myself my thought
after PyCon DE 2012 was: How can we get more women to speak at PyCon DE?
Because the number of women participating or even giving a talk was very low.

I had a short discussion with Jan Lehnhardt and he pointed me at "Beating the
Odds ? How We got 25% Women Speakers for JSConf EU 2012"[1].

The PyCon DE community was always using their own software[2] for organizing
the conference. So anonymous reviews were added to the version that was used
for PyCon DE 2013, because [1] said this is one of the things to increase
diversity.

The software used for EuroPython[3] is based on the software used for PyCon DE
in the years before. This is why it also has the feature of anonymous reviews.

So far for the "technical" reasons behind the blind review feature.

But looking again at the list of things to do at [1] I can see that one thing
has not been done:

3. Encourage people from under-represented groups to submit to the CFP.

And I think this also one of the things you blame, Lynn.

Even if it hurts and the time is pressing I think we have to discuss the review
process again. Lynn made a few good proposals for that.


Regards

Markus

[1]
http://2012.jsconf.eu/2012/09/17/beating-the-odds-how-we-got-25-percent-women-speakers.html
[2] https://bitbucket.org/PySV/pycon_de_website
[3] https://github.com/EuroPython/djep

From daniel.kraft at d9t.de  Tue Apr 15 13:27:02 2014
From: daniel.kraft at d9t.de (Daniel Kraft)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:27:02 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <674498495.109934.1397561222447.JavaMail.zimbra@d9t.de>

Absolute ack!

----- Urspr?ngliche Mail -----
> To the EuroPython organizers, talk reviewers, and community at large,
> 
> For those of you who do not know me, I am a board member of the Python
> Software Foundation, the founder and leader of PyLadies San Francisco,
> and an engineer at Spotify.  I have been a speaker at the last two
> EuroPythons, with 3 talks last year, and a keynote the year before.
> 
> I see that the list of preliminarily talks are publicly available. Side
> stepping my issue with lack of communication to proposers of talks at
> large, I am writing to bring light to the lack of diversity of the
> current list of talks, and propose some action items.
> 
> There is how I understand things as they are. Please correct me if I am
> wrong.
> 
> - talk selection was/is being done blindly, as in no identifying
> information about the speaker is revealed
> - there are very little women on that preliminary talk list slated to
> speak
> - there are multiple selected speakers slated to give multiple selected
> talks
> 
> If you do not find a problem with item #2 and #3, please read this
> article [1] about importance of diversity in a technical field.
> 
> Here are my suggestions to rectify this issue:
> - limit speakers to only give one talk. Yes this means going back on the
> original acceptance.
> - reopen CfP and reach out to PyLadies globally to help get the word
> out. As one of the main leaders of the global organization, I know this
> did not happen originally.
> - re-review the talks. Give preference or help for those who would be
> first time speakers. First time speakers may need far more help writing
> a proposal tailored to the EuroPython audience. As reviewers, you have
> an understanding of the EP community and should help pull up new
> speakers.
> - related to #2, and #3, have open office hours  or create general
> availability during the time that the CfP is reopened to help those who
> want it craft a good proposal.
> - select talks for the remainder of the program with the context of the
> preliminarily talks in mind.
> 
> I understand that the blind selection process was meant in good faith to
> remove bias. However, the result is troubling, and needs to be looked at
> in context. If this preliminary list has any influence on the actual
> program, the conference will suffer in terms of overall diversity in
> attendance. I'm not writing to discuss the merit of diversity at a tech
> conference, because I have faith that the reviewers and organizers
> already grasp its importance. But this email is to address what I feel
> needs to change.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Lynn Root
> 
> [1]
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/technology/technologys-man-problem.html?_r=0
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 

-- 
*Daniel Kraft*
Gesch?ftsf?hrer

D9T GmbH - Magirusstr. 39/1 - D-89077 Ulm
Tel: +49 731 1411 696-0 - Fax: +49 731 3799-220

Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Daniel Kraft
Sitz und Register: Ulm, HRB 722416
Ust.IdNr: DE 260484638

http://d9t.de - D9T High Performance Hosting
info at d9t.de

From hodgestar at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 14:11:16 2014
From: hodgestar at gmail.com (Simon Cross)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:11:16 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <CAD5NRCFLjxW_AGDQW+qGNt1+rpW0s9nHdL2Nj0WcA+fzAXGsDQ@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings

Is it possible to get some demographics on authors who submitted talks
vs authors of accepted talks? It would be good to know whether the
blind selection process functioned as intended (i.e. the demographics
of the two are statistically similar) or not.

The answer probably won't help us fix things for this year, but it
will tell us where more effort is needed next year.

Schiavo
Simon

From radomir at dopieralski.pl  Tue Apr 15 14:14:52 2014
From: radomir at dopieralski.pl (Radomir Dopieralski)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:14:52 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <CAD5NRCFLjxW_AGDQW+qGNt1+rpW0s9nHdL2Nj0WcA+fzAXGsDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAD5NRCFLjxW_AGDQW+qGNt1+rpW0s9nHdL2Nj0WcA+fzAXGsDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <534D22BC.6070804@dopieralski.pl>

On 04/15/2014 02:11 PM, Simon Cross wrote:
> Greetings
> 
> Is it possible to get some demographics on authors who submitted talks
> vs authors of accepted talks? It would be good to know whether the
> blind selection process functioned as intended (i.e. the demographics
> of the two are statistically similar) or not.
> 
> The answer probably won't help us fix things for this year, but it
> will tell us where more effort is needed next year.
> 
> Schiavo
> Simon
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 


-- 
Radomir Dopieralski

From radomir at dopieralski.pl  Tue Apr 15 14:20:02 2014
From: radomir at dopieralski.pl (Radomir Dopieralski)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:20:02 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <534D22BC.6070804@dopieralski.pl>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAD5NRCFLjxW_AGDQW+qGNt1+rpW0s9nHdL2Nj0WcA+fzAXGsDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <534D22BC.6070804@dopieralski.pl>
Message-ID: <534D23F2.9090703@dopieralski.pl>

On 04/15/2014 02:14 PM, Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
> On 04/15/2014 02:11 PM, Simon Cross wrote:
>> Greetings
>>
>> Is it possible to get some demographics on authors who submitted talks
>> vs authors of accepted talks? It would be good to know whether the
>> blind selection process functioned as intended (i.e. the demographics
>> of the two are statistically similar) or not.
>>
>> The answer probably won't help us fix things for this year, but it
>> will tell us where more effort is needed next year.

I'm sorry for the previous, empty reply, I hit "send" too soon.

I'm all for checking the statistics, especially to check if, by any
chance, all the more diverse speakers are not in the "disputed" group of
talks, which still have a chance of being accepted. It wouldn't be
surprising at all, since they are likely to stand out and therefore
attract votes both in plus and in minus.

There is also the fact, that blind review doesn't really work so well,
if the talk submitters know some of the reviewers, and can ask them for
voting on them (or even without asking, when the reviewers know the
topics of the talks submitted by their friends). The effect is opposite
to the intended -- the club becomes even more closed.

-- 
Radomir Dopieralski

From ep at zopyx.com  Tue Apr 15 14:32:33 2014
From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:32:33 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <534D23F2.9090703@dopieralski.pl>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAD5NRCFLjxW_AGDQW+qGNt1+rpW0s9nHdL2Nj0WcA+fzAXGsDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <534D22BC.6070804@dopieralski.pl> <534D23F2.9090703@dopieralski.pl>
Message-ID: <0FAF672F-6128-4CDA-807D-61E73BB60C07@zopyx.com>


Am 15.04.2014 um 08:20 schrieb Radomir Dopieralski <radomir at dopieralski.pl>:

> 
> 
> There is also the fact, that blind review doesn't really work so well,
> if the talk submitters know some of the reviewers, and can ask them for
> voting on them (or even without asking, when the reviewers know the
> topics of the talks submitted by their friends). The effect is opposite
> to the intended ?

At least for the last EuroPython in Florence you could vote for talks
(can not recall if you could see the speaker and its gender) - did it make
a huge difference?

Andreas


From ntoll at ntoll.org  Tue Apr 15 14:37:22 2014
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:37:22 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <534D2802.1050306@ntoll.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Yes!

On 15/04/14 10:28, Lynn Root wrote:
> - limit speakers to only give one talk.

+100000000

Perhaps too late for this year, but I wish this were the case for
every conference.

N.
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From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 14:53:32 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:53:32 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <0FAF672F-6128-4CDA-807D-61E73BB60C07@zopyx.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAD5NRCFLjxW_AGDQW+qGNt1+rpW0s9nHdL2Nj0WcA+fzAXGsDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <534D22BC.6070804@dopieralski.pl> <534D23F2.9090703@dopieralski.pl>
 <0FAF672F-6128-4CDA-807D-61E73BB60C07@zopyx.com>
Message-ID: <534D2BCC.4020902@gmail.com>

W dniu 15.04.2014 14:32, Andreas Jung pisze:
>
> At least for the last EuroPython in Florence you could vote for talks
> (can not recall if you could see the speaker and its gender)

you could see speakers data in EP2013

> - did it make
> a huge difference?

The question is how many talks conducted by women are this year? I think 
I've counted at least 1 from this years partial list that was published.

Last year (after quickly checking EP2013 talk list; I might miscounted) 
there were 4 such talks.

Regards,
Filip


From hs at ox.cx  Tue Apr 15 15:07:21 2014
From: hs at ox.cx (Hynek Schlawack)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:07:21 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <534D2802.1050306@ntoll.org>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <534D2802.1050306@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <65289E2E-E3F9-4479-BFDE-49815EAE2466@ox.cx>

On 15 Apr 2014, at 8:37, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:

> Yes!
>
> On 15/04/14 10:28, Lynn Root wrote:
>> - limit speakers to only give one talk.
>
> +100000000
>
> Perhaps too late for this year, but I wish this were the case for
> every conference.

First of all I?m glad that after the troubling discussion style in the 
not so far past this sensitive topic is approached appropriately.  The 
consequences of having a diverse speaker roster go much farther than 
that it looks good on paper.

I think that blind reviews are problematic if you have an unleveled play 
field and are trying to do something about that.  The solution is to 
accept one has certain biases and fight them instead of trying to avoid 
them because that apparently took away a tool you could have used.

***

That said, I don?t think it's too late.  The conference is in July and 
there?s a few things you can do:

- Get a keynote speaker who is not a white dude.
- Having speakers have 3 slots is ridiculous, 2 should be a very rare 
exception.  So ask them which talk is more important and there you have 
some free slots.
- Reach out to outreach groups.  The most obvious one are our PyLadies 
but there are more: http://www.callbackwomen.com/reach-out.html  Tell 
them our blind audition resulted in a roster you?re unhappy with and 
we?re trying to fix it.  Let some special committee review those 
proposals.  Keep a few slots free for them and just mark them TBD if you 
need to get it out to print.
- And finally walking the walk: my talk is still in the queue and I will 
happily retract my proposal if it helps to have a more diverse 
conference.  I have no interest to be part of an all-male schedule 
anyway.

Cheers and good luck,
Hynek

From mal at europython.eu  Tue Apr 15 15:19:52 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:19:52 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <534D025C.1030801@gmx.net>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <534D025C.1030801@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <534D31F8.1060806@europython.eu>

If it helps, I'd happily free up this slot in the selected talks
list (https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/event/schedule/):

43 - Embedded Devices - Marc-Andre Lemburg - Home Automation with Kivy, Raspberry Pi and MQTT

and perhaps do the talk as open space session, if there's interest.

BTW: This talk entry:

56 - Other - Marc-Andre Lemburg - EuroPython 2015 - Let's build it together

is not me, but the EuroPython Society. I just entered it on the EPS'
behalf and at the request of Mike M?ller. Those "talks" are only
organizational ones, which probably just got into the review by
mistake.

Thanks,
--
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From roberto.polli at babel.it  Tue Apr 15 15:19:42 2014
From: roberto.polli at babel.it (Roberto Polli)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:19:42 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <9513994.k1tEICTjXv@rpolli>

Hi @all,

On Tuesday 15 April 2014 02:28:50 Lynn Root wrote:
> For those of you who do not know me..
Everybody.py knows you, Lynn! 

> - talk selection was/is being done blindly, as in no identifying
> information about the speaker is revealed
> -#2 there are very little women on that preliminary talk list slated to
> speak
> -#3 there are multiple selected speakers slated to give multiple selected
> talks

> If you do not find a problem with item #2 and #3, please read this
> article [1] about importance of diversity in a technical field.
I agree diversity (of speakers/subjects) is a value, in every declination 
(we're not only our gender).

I'm sure Guido van Rossum and Alex Martelli could have send ten (all award 
winning) talks. But a  two-rockstar conference doesn't mean a better 
conference for the community. 

I think the committee consider that, and made their choice.

> Here are my suggestions to rectify this issue:
> - limit speakers to only give one talk. Yes this means going back on the
> original acceptance.
imho we could gently ask to the selected speakers to give away one or more 
talk in favor of the others: limiting the talks to one is unfair at the 
moment. And I'm sure that we'll reach the same aim without forcing out 
anybody. 

> - reopen CfP and reach out to PyLadies globally to help get the word
> out. As one of the main leaders of the global organization, I know this
> did not happen originally.
Not entirely fair, even for ladies awaiting for the final schedule. 
I agree instead to set gender quotas (eg. 40% minimum for the less-represented 
gender). But imho rules should be set *before* the review process.

> - re-review the talks. Give preference or help for those who would be
> first time speakers.
Agree to some precedence to first-time speakers and grow our community.

> ..create general availability during the time that the CfP is reopened
> to help those who want it craft a good proposal.
imho again: reopening is unfair towards people who made their homework ;)
During the review process, author had all the time to browse all proposals and 
fix their one.

> ... the blind selection ... the result is troubling...
Identifying authors won't have changed anything, but in any case I'm on the 
full-disclosure side. 

> But this email is to address what I feel needs to change.
Thx for writing! Your contribution is always a precious spark! 

Peace,
R.


> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/technology/technologys-man-problem.html?_r
> =0 _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

-- 
Roberto Polli
Community Manager
Babel - a business unit of Par-Tec S.p.A. - http://www.babel.it 
T: +39.06.9826.9651 M: +39.340.652.2736 F: +39.06.9826.9680
P.zza S.Benedetto da Norcia, 33 - 00040 Pomezia (Roma)

CONFIDENZIALE: Questo messaggio ed i suoi allegati sono di carattere 
confidenziale per i destinatari in indirizzo.
E' vietato l'inoltro non autorizzato a destinatari diversi da quelli indicati 
nel messaggio originale.
Se ricevuto per errore, l'uso del contenuto e' proibito; si prega di 
comunicarlo al mittente e cancellarlo immediatamente.

From faassen at startifact.com  Tue Apr 15 15:04:50 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:04:50 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
Message-ID: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hi there,

I thought I'd give my preferences for conference length in the future. 
It's just my point of view, but I had it for a while now, and I figure 
I'd better share it to be more constructive.

For some years, EuroPython was 3 days of conference, with perhaps 3 or 4 
parallel tracks with talks. From what I recall from the early days, we 
got about as many talk submissions as we had talk slots available.

At some point a few training days got tacked on to the beginning. We 
also gained a tradition of sprints before or after the conference, later 
on getting established at the end, where I think they should be. I 
myself greatly enjoy sprints as an opportunity to get to know people 
better and work with them.

In the last few years EuroPython grew to a conference with many more 
parallel tracks, and more days of conference proper. 5 or so. And then 
sprints.

I haven't been to EuroPython for a few years for other reasons. But when 
I peeked at the massive and long schedule I did feel rather intimidated. 
It feels a bit too much like a marathon to me. I prefer my conference to 
be shorter. I also feel such a long conference risks diluting the talks 
anyone finds interesting over a longer period, making the whole 
experience less inspiring. And while I enjoy the hallway track, I prefer 
doing sprints.

I take it the training sessions got spread into the main conference and 
that's why it's longer. But I wonder whether the ballooning schedule is 
also because the amount of talk submissions went up, and following the 
pattern of accepting as many submitted talks as possible like we used to 
have, the conference felt it had to grow to more days and more slots 
too. If this is so, I think we should consider whether this is the right 
response to more talk submissions, or whether a better response is to 
simply reject more talks.

I think this relates to the discussion on diversity of talks. On the 
preliminary schedule, quite a few speakers have two accepted talks, or 
even three. For a more inspiring conference, I'd prefer to see more 
different speakers, more viewpoints, not the same speaker multiple 
times, however good they may be, and however interesting the topic.

Perhaps an exception can be made if a particular category of 
submissions, like trainings, don't get enough submissions otherwise, but 
if submissions > talk slots, I think 1 accepted talk per speaker is a 
good idea. To avoid people gaming the system to increase their chances 
they're accepted, perhaps 1 *submitted* talk per speaker would be a good 
idea too.

For even more diversity of topics, throw in more wild card talks too 
that are only peripheral to Python, and not just for the keynote 
speeches. To me that's more inspiring. (I haven't studied the schedule 
in detail yet though, so it's possible they're there)

I was told by @europython on Twitter I wasn't required to show up for 5 
days of talks. I can make my own, shorter conference. So do I cut off 
the beginning or the end? I'd prefer the sprints, so I guess I should 
show up in day 3? What if a talk I submitted gets scheduled to day 2, 
though? Or if I actually prefer seeing the talks on day 1 and 2? Now I 
have to make those difficult choices myself.

Nobody has to care about what I want of course if it's just me. But 
perhaps I'm not the only one. And maybe bits of my analysis make sense 
to others. Nobody will find out if nobody talks about it, so that's why 
I did here.

Thanks for doing all the hard work in organizing this; I know it's not easy.

Regards,

Martijn


From faassen at startifact.com  Tue Apr 15 15:24:53 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:24:53 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <65289E2E-E3F9-4479-BFDE-49815EAE2466@ox.cx>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <534D2802.1050306@ntoll.org> <65289E2E-E3F9-4479-BFDE-49815EAE2466@ox.cx>
Message-ID: <lijbv5$j8a$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hey,

On 04/15/2014 03:07 PM, Hynek Schlawack wrote:

 > - And finally walking the walk: my talk is still in the queue and I will
 > happily retract my proposal if it helps to have a more diverse
 > conference.

Good point.

My talk is also in the queue. I don't know whether it's rejected or not.

If the conference takes the steps you suggested (1 talk per speaker, 
outreach to various groups to create a more diverse schedule), I'll 
unhappily retract my possibly-not-rejected proposal too, if it helps 
free up a slot.

Regards,

Martijn



From stefan at sofa-rockers.org  Tue Apr 15 16:03:53 2014
From: stefan at sofa-rockers.org (Stefan Scherfke)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:03:53 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <65289E2E-E3F9-4479-BFDE-49815EAE2466@ox.cx>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <534D2802.1050306@ntoll.org> <65289E2E-E3F9-4479-BFDE-49815EAE2466@ox.cx>
Message-ID: <A9E1F4D1-7329-44A8-ADE3-F27D042C0C1B@sofa-rockers.org>


Am 2014-04-15 um 15:07 schrieb Hynek Schlawack <hs at ox.cx>:

> - Having speakers have 3 slots is ridiculous, 2 should be a very rare exception.  So ask them which talk is more important and there you have some free slots.

I wrote an email to the EP help desk a few days ago and offered to withdraw one
of my talks in order to give someone else the chance to present his/her ideas.
Got no reply so far ? :-/

I don?t feel very comfortable having multiple talks while others may not be able
to attend EP.

Cheers,
Stefan

From hithwen at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 16:39:56 2014
From: hithwen at gmail.com (Julia S.S.)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:39:56 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython Digest, Vol 115, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <mailman.48222.1397569253.18129.europython@python.org>
References: <mailman.48222.1397569253.18129.europython@python.org>
Message-ID: <CAOUN1LNwYLvkSfdGWp_p_f=phhcLGTduHrdWGNVQszv8uKFTGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Totally agree with martjin, adding up that also having a conference that
long makes it more expensive and some people will be discouraged to go.
El 15/04/2014 15:40, <europython-request at python.org> escribi?:

> Send EuroPython mailing list submissions to
>         europython at python.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         europython-request at python.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         europython-owner at python.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of EuroPython digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Lack of diversity within selected talks (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
>    2. Re: Lack of diversity within selected talks (Filip K??bczyk)
>    3. Re: Lack of diversity within selected talks (Hynek Schlawack)
>    4. Re: Lack of diversity within selected talks (M.-A. Lemburg)
>    5. Re: Lack of diversity within selected talks (Roberto Polli)
>    6. conference length (Martijn Faassen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:37:22 +0100
> From: "Nicholas H.Tollervey" <ntoll at ntoll.org>
> To: europython at python.org
> Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
> Message-ID: <534D2802.1050306 at ntoll.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Yes!
>
> On 15/04/14 10:28, Lynn Root wrote:
> > - limit speakers to only give one talk.
>
> +100000000
>
> Perhaps too late for this year, but I wish this were the case for
> every conference.
>
> N.
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> =k/2s
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:53:32 +0200
> From: Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com>
> To: europython lists <europython at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
> Message-ID: <534D2BCC.4020902 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> W dniu 15.04.2014 14:32, Andreas Jung pisze:
> >
> > At least for the last EuroPython in Florence you could vote for talks
> > (can not recall if you could see the speaker and its gender)
>
> you could see speakers data in EP2013
>
> > - did it make
> > a huge difference?
>
> The question is how many talks conducted by women are this year? I think
> I've counted at least 1 from this years partial list that was published.
>
> Last year (after quickly checking EP2013 talk list; I might miscounted)
> there were 4 such talks.
>
> Regards,
> Filip
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:07:21 -0400
> From: "Hynek Schlawack" <hs at ox.cx>
> To: europython at python.org
> Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
> Message-ID: <65289E2E-E3F9-4479-BFDE-49815EAE2466 at ox.cx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 15 Apr 2014, at 8:37, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote:
>
> > Yes!
> >
> > On 15/04/14 10:28, Lynn Root wrote:
> >> - limit speakers to only give one talk.
> >
> > +100000000
> >
> > Perhaps too late for this year, but I wish this were the case for
> > every conference.
>
> First of all I?m glad that after the troubling discussion style in the
> not so far past this sensitive topic is approached appropriately.  The
> consequences of having a diverse speaker roster go much farther than
> that it looks good on paper.
>
> I think that blind reviews are problematic if you have an unleveled play
> field and are trying to do something about that.  The solution is to
> accept one has certain biases and fight them instead of trying to avoid
> them because that apparently took away a tool you could have used.
>
> ***
>
> That said, I don?t think it's too late.  The conference is in July and
> there?s a few things you can do:
>
> - Get a keynote speaker who is not a white dude.
> - Having speakers have 3 slots is ridiculous, 2 should be a very rare
> exception.  So ask them which talk is more important and there you have
> some free slots.
> - Reach out to outreach groups.  The most obvious one are our PyLadies
> but there are more: http://www.callbackwomen.com/reach-out.html  Tell
> them our blind audition resulted in a roster you?re unhappy with and
> we?re trying to fix it.  Let some special committee review those
> proposals.  Keep a few slots free for them and just mark them TBD if you
> need to get it out to print.
> - And finally walking the walk: my talk is still in the queue and I will
> happily retract my proposal if it helps to have a more diverse
> conference.  I have no interest to be part of an all-male schedule
> anyway.
>
> Cheers and good luck,
> Hynek
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:19:52 +0200
> From: "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at europython.eu>
> To: Markus Zapke-Gr?ndemann <markuszapke at gmx.net>,
>         europython at python.org, Lynn Root <lynn at lynnroot.com>
> Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
> Message-ID: <534D31F8.1060806 at europython.eu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> If it helps, I'd happily free up this slot in the selected talks
> list (https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/event/schedule/):
>
> 43 - Embedded Devices - Marc-Andre Lemburg - Home Automation with Kivy,
> Raspberry Pi and MQTT
>
> and perhaps do the talk as open space session, if there's interest.
>
> BTW: This talk entry:
>
> 56 - Other - Marc-Andre Lemburg - EuroPython 2015 - Let's build it together
>
> is not me, but the EuroPython Society. I just entered it on the EPS'
> behalf and at the request of Mike M?ller. Those "talks" are only
> organizational ones, which probably just got into the review by
> mistake.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> Director
> EuroPython Society
> http://www.europython-society.org/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:19:42 +0200
> From: Roberto Polli <roberto.polli at babel.it>
> To: europython at python.org
> Cc: Lynn Root <lynn at lynnroot.com>
> Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
> Message-ID: <9513994.k1tEICTjXv at rpolli>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi @all,
>
> On Tuesday 15 April 2014 02:28:50 Lynn Root wrote:
> > For those of you who do not know me..
> Everybody.py knows you, Lynn!
>
> > - talk selection was/is being done blindly, as in no identifying
> > information about the speaker is revealed
> > -#2 there are very little women on that preliminary talk list slated to
> > speak
> > -#3 there are multiple selected speakers slated to give multiple selected
> > talks
>
> > If you do not find a problem with item #2 and #3, please read this
> > article [1] about importance of diversity in a technical field.
> I agree diversity (of speakers/subjects) is a value, in every declination
> (we're not only our gender).
>
> I'm sure Guido van Rossum and Alex Martelli could have send ten (all award
> winning) talks. But a  two-rockstar conference doesn't mean a better
> conference for the community.
>
> I think the committee consider that, and made their choice.
>
> > Here are my suggestions to rectify this issue:
> > - limit speakers to only give one talk. Yes this means going back on the
> > original acceptance.
> imho we could gently ask to the selected speakers to give away one or more
> talk in favor of the others: limiting the talks to one is unfair at the
> moment. And I'm sure that we'll reach the same aim without forcing out
> anybody.
>
> > - reopen CfP and reach out to PyLadies globally to help get the word
> > out. As one of the main leaders of the global organization, I know this
> > did not happen originally.
> Not entirely fair, even for ladies awaiting for the final schedule.
> I agree instead to set gender quotas (eg. 40% minimum for the
> less-represented
> gender). But imho rules should be set *before* the review process.
>
> > - re-review the talks. Give preference or help for those who would be
> > first time speakers.
> Agree to some precedence to first-time speakers and grow our community.
>
> > ..create general availability during the time that the CfP is reopened
> > to help those who want it craft a good proposal.
> imho again: reopening is unfair towards people who made their homework ;)
> During the review process, author had all the time to browse all proposals
> and
> fix their one.
>
> > ... the blind selection ... the result is troubling...
> Identifying authors won't have changed anything, but in any case I'm on the
> full-disclosure side.
>
> > But this email is to address what I feel needs to change.
> Thx for writing! Your contribution is always a precious spark!
>
> Peace,
> R.
>
>
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/technology/technologys-man-problem.html?_r
> > =0 _______________________________________________
> > EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> > EuroPython mailing list
> > EuroPython at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>
> --
> Roberto Polli
> Community Manager
> Babel - a business unit of Par-Tec S.p.A. - http://www.babel.it
> T: +39.06.9826.9651 M: +39.340.652.2736 F: +39.06.9826.9680
> P.zza S.Benedetto da Norcia, 33 - 00040 Pomezia (Roma)
>
> CONFIDENZIALE: Questo messaggio ed i suoi allegati sono di carattere
> confidenziale per i destinatari in indirizzo.
> E' vietato l'inoltro non autorizzato a destinatari diversi da quelli
> indicati
> nel messaggio originale.
> Se ricevuto per errore, l'uso del contenuto e' proibito; si prega di
> comunicarlo al mittente e cancellarlo immediatamente.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:04:50 +0200
> From: Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com>
> To: europython at python.org
> Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
> Message-ID: <lijapi$ttu$1 at ger.gmane.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi there,
>
> I thought I'd give my preferences for conference length in the future.
> It's just my point of view, but I had it for a while now, and I figure
> I'd better share it to be more constructive.
>
> For some years, EuroPython was 3 days of conference, with perhaps 3 or 4
> parallel tracks with talks. From what I recall from the early days, we
> got about as many talk submissions as we had talk slots available.
>
> At some point a few training days got tacked on to the beginning. We
> also gained a tradition of sprints before or after the conference, later
> on getting established at the end, where I think they should be. I
> myself greatly enjoy sprints as an opportunity to get to know people
> better and work with them.
>
> In the last few years EuroPython grew to a conference with many more
> parallel tracks, and more days of conference proper. 5 or so. And then
> sprints.
>
> I haven't been to EuroPython for a few years for other reasons. But when
> I peeked at the massive and long schedule I did feel rather intimidated.
> It feels a bit too much like a marathon to me. I prefer my conference to
> be shorter. I also feel such a long conference risks diluting the talks
> anyone finds interesting over a longer period, making the whole
> experience less inspiring. And while I enjoy the hallway track, I prefer
> doing sprints.
>
> I take it the training sessions got spread into the main conference and
> that's why it's longer. But I wonder whether the ballooning schedule is
> also because the amount of talk submissions went up, and following the
> pattern of accepting as many submitted talks as possible like we used to
> have, the conference felt it had to grow to more days and more slots
> too. If this is so, I think we should consider whether this is the right
> response to more talk submissions, or whether a better response is to
> simply reject more talks.
>
> I think this relates to the discussion on diversity of talks. On the
> preliminary schedule, quite a few speakers have two accepted talks, or
> even three. For a more inspiring conference, I'd prefer to see more
> different speakers, more viewpoints, not the same speaker multiple
> times, however good they may be, and however interesting the topic.
>
> Perhaps an exception can be made if a particular category of
> submissions, like trainings, don't get enough submissions otherwise, but
> if submissions > talk slots, I think 1 accepted talk per speaker is a
> good idea. To avoid people gaming the system to increase their chances
> they're accepted, perhaps 1 *submitted* talk per speaker would be a good
> idea too.
>
> For even more diversity of topics, throw in more wild card talks too
> that are only peripheral to Python, and not just for the keynote
> speeches. To me that's more inspiring. (I haven't studied the schedule
> in detail yet though, so it's possible they're there)
>
> I was told by @europython on Twitter I wasn't required to show up for 5
> days of talks. I can make my own, shorter conference. So do I cut off
> the beginning or the end? I'd prefer the sprints, so I guess I should
> show up in day 3? What if a talk I submitted gets scheduled to day 2,
> though? Or if I actually prefer seeing the talks on day 1 and 2? Now I
> have to make those difficult choices myself.
>
> Nobody has to care about what I want of course if it's just me. But
> perhaps I'm not the only one. And maybe bits of my analysis make sense
> to others. Nobody will find out if nobody talks about it, so that's why
> I did here.
>
> Thanks for doing all the hard work in organizing this; I know it's not
> easy.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of EuroPython Digest, Vol 115, Issue 4
> ******************************************
>
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From ep at zopyx.com  Tue Apr 15 20:14:23 2014
From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:14:23 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <A9E1F4D1-7329-44A8-ADE3-F27D042C0C1B@sofa-rockers.org>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <534D2802.1050306@ntoll.org> <65289E2E-E3F9-4479-BFDE-49815EAE2466@ox.cx>
 <A9E1F4D1-7329-44A8-ADE3-F27D042C0C1B@sofa-rockers.org>
Message-ID: <51ABAA4E-F9F4-4FDA-8CD0-CBDBF66439AA@zopyx.com>

Hi Stefan,

we got your message and it has been noticed. Some people of the orga
team have been busy at the PyCon in Montreal and/or are still traveling.

Andreas

Am 15.04.2014 um 10:03 schrieb Stefan Scherfke <stefan at sofa-rockers.org>:

> 
> Am 2014-04-15 um 15:07 schrieb Hynek Schlawack <hs at ox.cx>:
> 
>> - Having speakers have 3 slots is ridiculous, 2 should be a very rare exception.  So ask them which talk is more important and there you have some free slots.
> 
> I wrote an email to the EP help desk a few days ago and offered to withdraw one
> of my talks in order to give someone else the chance to present his/her ideas.
> Got no reply so far ? :-/
> 
> I don?t feel very comfortable having multiple talks while others may not be able
> to attend EP.
> 
> Cheers,
> Stefan
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


From jan.murre at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 20:47:53 2014
From: jan.murre at gmail.com (Jan Murre)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 20:47:53 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CA+cMOiMzkPuqeNxx-dVv2c8mAsaY0pEviEXf5HevfqM2Xa=Ngw@mail.gmail.com>

+1

for going back to the original 3-day length of the conference, not to
criticize the organisation, it's just my personal preference.


On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:04 PM, Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com>wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I thought I'd give my preferences for conference length in the future.
> It's just my point of view, but I had it for a while now, and I figure I'd
> better share it to be more constructive.
>
> For some years, EuroPython was 3 days of conference, with perhaps 3 or 4
> parallel tracks with talks. From what I recall from the early days, we got
> about as many talk submissions as we had talk slots available.
>
> At some point a few training days got tacked on to the beginning. We also
> gained a tradition of sprints before or after the conference, later on
> getting established at the end, where I think they should be. I myself
> greatly enjoy sprints as an opportunity to get to know people better and
> work with them.
>
> In the last few years EuroPython grew to a conference with many more
> parallel tracks, and more days of conference proper. 5 or so. And then
> sprints.
>
> I haven't been to EuroPython for a few years for other reasons. But when I
> peeked at the massive and long schedule I did feel rather intimidated. It
> feels a bit too much like a marathon to me. I prefer my conference to be
> shorter. I also feel such a long conference risks diluting the talks anyone
> finds interesting over a longer period, making the whole experience less
> inspiring. And while I enjoy the hallway track, I prefer doing sprints.
>
> I take it the training sessions got spread into the main conference and
> that's why it's longer. But I wonder whether the ballooning schedule is
> also because the amount of talk submissions went up, and following the
> pattern of accepting as many submitted talks as possible like we used to
> have, the conference felt it had to grow to more days and more slots too.
> If this is so, I think we should consider whether this is the right
> response to more talk submissions, or whether a better response is to
> simply reject more talks.
>
> I think this relates to the discussion on diversity of talks. On the
> preliminary schedule, quite a few speakers have two accepted talks, or even
> three. For a more inspiring conference, I'd prefer to see more different
> speakers, more viewpoints, not the same speaker multiple times, however
> good they may be, and however interesting the topic.
>
> Perhaps an exception can be made if a particular category of submissions,
> like trainings, don't get enough submissions otherwise, but if submissions
> > talk slots, I think 1 accepted talk per speaker is a good idea. To avoid
> people gaming the system to increase their chances they're accepted,
> perhaps 1 *submitted* talk per speaker would be a good idea too.
>
> For even more diversity of topics, throw in more wild card talks too that
> are only peripheral to Python, and not just for the keynote speeches. To me
> that's more inspiring. (I haven't studied the schedule in detail yet
> though, so it's possible they're there)
>
> I was told by @europython on Twitter I wasn't required to show up for 5
> days of talks. I can make my own, shorter conference. So do I cut off the
> beginning or the end? I'd prefer the sprints, so I guess I should show up
> in day 3? What if a talk I submitted gets scheduled to day 2, though? Or if
> I actually prefer seeing the talks on day 1 and 2? Now I have to make those
> difficult choices myself.
>
> Nobody has to care about what I want of course if it's just me. But
> perhaps I'm not the only one. And maybe bits of my analysis make sense to
> others. Nobody will find out if nobody talks about it, so that's why I did
> here.
>
> Thanks for doing all the hard work in organizing this; I know it's not
> easy.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>
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From ep at zopyx.com  Tue Apr 15 20:56:10 2014
From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:56:10 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <CA+cMOiMzkPuqeNxx-dVv2c8mAsaY0pEviEXf5HevfqM2Xa=Ngw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+cMOiMzkPuqeNxx-dVv2c8mAsaY0pEviEXf5HevfqM2Xa=Ngw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D05BF252-CEE3-4D75-BE4F-BE7314DF1AEC@zopyx.com>

I think it is neither the right place nor the right way nor the right time
to discuss what the reasonable length of a conference is. There are geeks that
want to spend a lot of time at the conference with talks and sprints, there are 
people that are only interested in the talk but in sprints, there are python dev
that come for training and talks and perhaps not sprints?..too many different expectations.
You will never bring all expectations under one hood.

Andreas

Am 15.04.2014 um 14:47 schrieb Jan Murre <jan.murre at gmail.com>:

> +1  
> 
> for going back to the original 3-day length of the conference, not to criticize the organisation, it's just my personal preference.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:04 PM, Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com> wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> I thought I'd give my preferences for conference length in the future. It's just my point of view, but I had it for a while now, and I figure I'd better share it to be more constructive.
> 
> For some years, EuroPython was 3 days of conference, with perhaps 3 or 4 parallel tracks with talks. From what I recall from the early days, we got about as many talk submissions as we had talk slots available.
> 
> At some point a few training days got tacked on to the beginning. We also gained a tradition of sprints before or after the conference, later on getting established at the end, where I think they should be. I myself greatly enjoy sprints as an opportunity to get to know people better and work with them.
> 
> In the last few years EuroPython grew to a conference with many more parallel tracks, and more days of conference proper. 5 or so. And then sprints.
> 
> I haven't been to EuroPython for a few years for other reasons. But when I peeked at the massive and long schedule I did feel rather intimidated. It feels a bit too much like a marathon to me. I prefer my conference to be shorter. I also feel such a long conference risks diluting the talks anyone finds interesting over a longer period, making the whole experience less inspiring. And while I enjoy the hallway track, I prefer doing sprints.
> 
> I take it the training sessions got spread into the main conference and that's why it's longer. But I wonder whether the ballooning schedule is also because the amount of talk submissions went up, and following the pattern of accepting as many submitted talks as possible like we used to have, the conference felt it had to grow to more days and more slots too. If this is so, I think we should consider whether this is the right response to more talk submissions, or whether a better response is to simply reject more talks.
> 
> I think this relates to the discussion on diversity of talks. On the preliminary schedule, quite a few speakers have two accepted talks, or even three. For a more inspiring conference, I'd prefer to see more different speakers, more viewpoints, not the same speaker multiple times, however good they may be, and however interesting the topic.
> 
> Perhaps an exception can be made if a particular category of submissions, like trainings, don't get enough submissions otherwise, but if submissions > talk slots, I think 1 accepted talk per speaker is a good idea. To avoid people gaming the system to increase their chances they're accepted, perhaps 1 *submitted* talk per speaker would be a good idea too.
> 
> For even more diversity of topics, throw in more wild card talks too that are only peripheral to Python, and not just for the keynote speeches. To me that's more inspiring. (I haven't studied the schedule in detail yet though, so it's possible they're there)
> 
> I was told by @europython on Twitter I wasn't required to show up for 5 days of talks. I can make my own, shorter conference. So do I cut off the beginning or the end? I'd prefer the sprints, so I guess I should show up in day 3? What if a talk I submitted gets scheduled to day 2, though? Or if I actually prefer seeing the talks on day 1 and 2? Now I have to make those difficult choices myself.
> 
> Nobody has to care about what I want of course if it's just me. But perhaps I'm not the only one. And maybe bits of my analysis make sense to others. Nobody will find out if nobody talks about it, so that's why I did here.
> 
> Thanks for doing all the hard work in organizing this; I know it's not easy.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martijn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014 ? Berlin, 21th?27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


From roberto.polli at babel.it  Tue Apr 15 21:04:06 2014
From: roberto.polli at babel.it (roberto.polli)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 21:04:06 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] R:  conference length
Message-ID: <i4tx4080hwn24vdclj5fitq2.1397588646844@email.android.com>

Sorry but mobile forces top posting and laconic mode.?

Martijn suggests shorter conferences.?

I think that one week is fine: the last 2 EPs were a perfect mix of tech and social event.?

To foster Python community we need not just a guru conference, but a place to share and meet the diverse use of Python. At various level.?

The more useful talk I attended were seldom the more trendy or cool. Usually the one showing some practical use.

Can we cover PSL, Web, sysdev, devops, sci, data/sql, edu tracks in 3 days? Maybe without coffee break.?

And still provide some social time? Doubt it: another rocking talk is on schedule *now* :)

My 0.02?

Peace.?
R





Inviato da Samsung Mobile

-------- Messaggio originale --------
Da: Martijn Faassen 
Data:15/04/2014 15:04 (GMT+01:00) 
A: europython at python.org 
Oggetto: [EuroPython] conference length 

Hi there,

I thought I'd give my preferences for conference length in the future. 
It's just my point of view, but I had it for a while now, and I figure 
I'd better share it to be more constructive.

For some years, EuroPython was 3 days of conference, with perhaps 3 or 4 
parallel tracks with talks. From what I recall from the early days, we 
got about as many talk submissions as we had talk slots available.

At some point a few training days got tacked on to the beginning. We 
also gained a tradition of sprints before or after the conference, later 
on getting established at the end, where I think they should be. I 
myself greatly enjoy sprints as an opportunity to get to know people 
better and work with them.

In the last few years EuroPython grew to a conference with many more 
parallel tracks, and more days of conference proper. 5 or so. And then 
sprints.

I haven't been to EuroPython for a few years for other reasons. But when 
I peeked at the massive and long schedule I did feel rather intimidated. 
It feels a bit too much like a marathon to me. I prefer my conference to 
be shorter. I also feel such a long conference risks diluting the talks 
anyone finds interesting over a longer period, making the whole 
experience less inspiring. And while I enjoy the hallway track, I prefer 
doing sprints.

I take it the training sessions got spread into the main conference and 
that's why it's longer. But I wonder whether the ballooning schedule is 
also because the amount of talk submissions went up, and following the 
pattern of accepting as many submitted talks as possible like we used to 
have, the conference felt it had to grow to more days and more slots 
too. If this is so, I think we should consider whether this is the right 
response to more talk submissions, or whether a better response is to 
simply reject more talks.

I think this relates to the discussion on diversity of talks. On the 
preliminary schedule, quite a few speakers have two accepted talks, or 
even three. For a more inspiring conference, I'd prefer to see more 
different speakers, more viewpoints, not the same speaker multiple 
times, however good they may be, and however interesting the topic.

Perhaps an exception can be made if a particular category of 
submissions, like trainings, don't get enough submissions otherwise, but 
if submissions > talk slots, I think 1 accepted talk per speaker is a 
good idea. To avoid people gaming the system to increase their chances 
they're accepted, perhaps 1 *submitted* talk per speaker would be a good 
idea too.

For even more diversity of topics, throw in more wild card talks too 
that are only peripheral to Python, and not just for the keynote 
speeches. To me that's more inspiring. (I haven't studied the schedule 
in detail yet though, so it's possible they're there)

I was told by @europython on Twitter I wasn't required to show up for 5 
days of talks. I can make my own, shorter conference. So do I cut off 
the beginning or the end? I'd prefer the sprints, so I guess I should 
show up in day 3? What if a talk I submitted gets scheduled to day 2, 
though? Or if I actually prefer seeing the talks on day 1 and 2? Now I 
have to make those difficult choices myself.

Nobody has to care about what I want of course if it's just me. But 
perhaps I'm not the only one. And maybe bits of my analysis make sense 
to others. Nobody will find out if nobody talks about it, so that's why 
I did here.

Thanks for doing all the hard work in organizing this; I know it's not easy.

Regards,

Martijn

_______________________________________________
EuroPython 2014? Berlin, 21th27th July
EuroPython mailing list
EuroPython at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
-------------- next part --------------
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From roberto.polli at babel.it  Tue Apr 15 21:46:54 2014
From: roberto.polli at babel.it (roberto.polli)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 21:46:54 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] R: Re:  conference length
Message-ID: <6q4apqbqt6dnh5lcxbkhb9jm.1397591214244@email.android.com>

Right time to discuss: no.?
Right Place to discuss: probably yes.?

Enough said for me, people.

Peace.?
R


Inviato da Samsung Mobile

-------- Messaggio originale --------
Da: Andreas Jung <ep at zopyx.com> 
Data:15/04/2014  20:56  (GMT+01:00) 
A: Jan Murre <jan.murre at gmail.com> 
Cc: europython at python.org 
Oggetto: Re: [EuroPython] conference length 

I think it is neither the right place nor the right way nor the right time
to discuss what the reasonable length of a conference is. There are geeks that
want to spend a lot of time at the conference with talks and sprints, there are 
people that are only interested in the talk but in sprints, there are python dev
that come for training and talks and perhaps not sprints?..too many different expectations.
You will never bring all expectations under one hood.

Andreas

Am 15.04.2014 um 14:47 schrieb Jan Murre <jan.murre at gmail.com>:

> +1? 
> 
> for going back to the original 3-day length of the conference, not to criticize the organisation, it's just my personal preference.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:04 PM, Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com> wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> I thought I'd give my preferences for conference length in the future. It's just my point of view, but I had it for a while now, and I figure I'd better share it to be more constructive.
> 
> For some years, EuroPython was 3 days of conference, with perhaps 3 or 4 parallel tracks with talks. From what I recall from the early days, we got about as many talk submissions as we had talk slots available.
> 
> At some point a few training days got tacked on to the beginning. We also gained a tradition of sprints before or after the conference, later on getting established at the end, where I think they should be. I myself greatly enjoy sprints as an opportunity to get to know people better and work with them.
> 
> In the last few years EuroPython grew to a conference with many more parallel tracks, and more days of conference proper. 5 or so. And then sprints.
> 
> I haven't been to EuroPython for a few years for other reasons. But when I peeked at the massive and long schedule I did feel rather intimidated. It feels a bit too much like a marathon to me. I prefer my conference to be shorter. I also feel such a long conference risks diluting the talks anyone finds interesting over a longer period, making the whole experience less inspiring. And while I enjoy the hallway track, I prefer doing sprints.
> 
> I take it the training sessions got spread into the main conference and that's why it's longer. But I wonder whether the ballooning schedule is also because the amount of talk submissions went up, and following the pattern of accepting as many submitted talks as possible like we used to have, the conference felt it had to grow to more days and more slots too. If this is so, I think we should consider whether this is the right response to more talk submissions, or whether a better response is to simply reject more talks.
> 
> I think this relates to the discussion on diversity of talks. On the preliminary schedule, quite a few speakers have two accepted talks, or even three. For a more inspiring conference, I'd prefer to see more different speakers, more viewpoints, not the same speaker multiple times, however good they may be, and however interesting the topic.
> 
> Perhaps an exception can be made if a particular category of submissions, like trainings, don't get enough submissions otherwise, but if submissions > talk slots, I think 1 accepted talk per speaker is a good idea. To avoid people gaming the system to increase their chances they're accepted, perhaps 1 *submitted* talk per speaker would be a good idea too.
> 
> For even more diversity of topics, throw in more wild card talks too that are only peripheral to Python, and not just for the keynote speeches. To me that's more inspiring. (I haven't studied the schedule in detail yet though, so it's possible they're there)
> 
> I was told by @europython on Twitter I wasn't required to show up for 5 days of talks. I can make my own, shorter conference. So do I cut off the beginning or the end? I'd prefer the sprints, so I guess I should show up in day 3? What if a talk I submitted gets scheduled to day 2, though? Or if I actually prefer seeing the talks on day 1 and 2? Now I have to make those difficult choices myself.
> 
> Nobody has to care about what I want of course if it's just me. But perhaps I'm not the only one. And maybe bits of my analysis make sense to others. Nobody will find out if nobody talks about it, so that's why I did here.
> 
> Thanks for doing all the hard work in organizing this; I know it's not easy.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martijn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014? Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014 ? Berlin, 21th?27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

_______________________________________________
EuroPython 2014? Berlin, 21th27th July
EuroPython mailing list
EuroPython at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
-------------- next part --------------
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From ep at zopyx.com  Tue Apr 15 21:48:39 2014
From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:48:39 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <6q4apqbqt6dnh5lcxbkhb9jm.1397591214244@email.android.com>
References: <6q4apqbqt6dnh5lcxbkhb9jm.1397591214244@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <5665D03D-F868-408C-A1A1-D720708DF459@zopyx.com>

You will not reach _all_ different stakeholders through this list.
An open-space at the conference, a public survey at the conference
?something like that would be representative?but peace (but
there was no war) :-)

Andreas

Am 15.04.2014 um 15:46 schrieb roberto.polli <roberto.polli at babel.it>:

> Right time to discuss: no. 
> Right Place to discuss: probably yes. 
> 
> Enough said for me, people.
> 
> Peace. 
> R
> 
> 
> Inviato da Samsung Mobile
> 
> 
> -------- Messaggio originale --------
> Da: Andreas Jung 
> Data:15/04/2014 20:56 (GMT+01:00) 
> A: Jan Murre 
> Cc: europython at python.org 
> Oggetto: Re: [EuroPython] conference length 
> 
> I think it is neither the right place nor the right way nor the right time
> to discuss what the reasonable length of a conference is. There are geeks that
> want to spend a lot of time at the conference with talks and sprints, there are 
> people that are only interested in the talk but in sprints, there are python dev
> that come for training and talks and perhaps not sprints?..too many different expectations.
> You will never bring all expectations under one hood.
> 
> Andreas
> 
> Am 15.04.2014 um 14:47 schrieb Jan Murre <jan.murre at gmail.com>:
> 
> > +1  
> > 
> > for going back to the original 3-day length of the conference, not to criticize the organisation, it's just my personal preference.
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 3:04 PM, Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com> wrote:
> > Hi there,
> > 
> > I thought I'd give my preferences for conference length in the future. It's just my point of view, but I had it for a while now, and I figure I'd better share it to be more constructive.
> > 
> > For some years, EuroPython was 3 days of conference, with perhaps 3 or 4 parallel tracks with talks. From what I recall from the early days, we got about as many talk submissions as we had talk slots available.
> > 
> > At some point a few training days got tacked on to the beginning. We also gained a tradition of sprints before or after the conference, later on getting established at the end, where I think they should be. I myself greatly enjoy sprints as an opportunity to get to know people better and work with them.
> > 
> > In the last few years EuroPython grew to a conference with many more parallel tracks, and more days of conference proper. 5 or so. And then sprints.
> > 
> > I haven't been to EuroPython for a few years for other reasons. But when I peeked at the massive and long schedule I did feel rather intimidated. It feels a bit too much like a marathon to me. I prefer my conference to be shorter. I also feel such a long conference risks diluting the talks anyone finds interesting over a longer period, making the whole experience less inspiring. And while I enjoy the hallway track, I prefer doing sprints.
> > 
> > I take it the training sessions got spread into the main conference and that's why it's longer. But I wonder whether the ballooning schedule is also because the amount of talk submissions went up, and following the pattern of accepting as many submitted talks as possible like we used to have, the conference felt it had to grow to more days and more slots too. If this is so, I think we should consider whether this is the right response to more talk submissions, or whether a better response is to simply reject more talks.
> > 
> > I think this relates to the discussion on diversity of talks. On the preliminary schedule, quite a few speakers have two accepted talks, or even three. For a more inspiring conference, I'd prefer to see more different speakers, more viewpoints, not the same speaker multiple times, however good they may be, and however interesting the topic.
> > 
> > Perhaps an exception can be made if a particular category of submissions, like trainings, don't get enough submissions otherwise, but if submissions > talk slots, I think 1 accepted talk per speaker is a good idea. To avoid people gaming the system to increase their chances they're accepted, perhaps 1 *submitted* talk per speaker would be a good idea too.
> > 
> > For even more diversity of topics, throw in more wild card talks too that are only peripheral to Python, and not just for the keynote speeches. To me that's more inspiring. (I haven't studied the schedule in detail yet though, so it's possible they're there)
> > 
> > I was told by @europython on Twitter I wasn't required to show up for 5 days of talks. I can make my own, shorter conference. So do I cut off the beginning or the end? I'd prefer the sprints, so I guess I should show up in day 3? What if a talk I submitted gets scheduled to day 2, though? Or if I actually prefer seeing the talks on day 1 and 2? Now I have to make those difficult choices myself.
> > 
> > Nobody has to care about what I want of course if it's just me. But perhaps I'm not the only one. And maybe bits of my analysis make sense to others. Nobody will find out if nobody talks about it, so that's why I did here.
> > 
> > Thanks for doing all the hard work in organizing this; I know it's not easy.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Martijn
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> > EuroPython mailing list
> > EuroPython at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > EuroPython 2014 ? Berlin, 21th?27th July
> > EuroPython mailing list
> > EuroPython at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


From gadgetsteve at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 15 21:57:57 2014
From: gadgetsteve at hotmail.com (Steve Barnes)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 20:57:57 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <5665D03D-F868-408C-A1A1-D720708DF459@zopyx.com>
References: <6q4apqbqt6dnh5lcxbkhb9jm.1397591214244@email.android.com>
 <5665D03D-F868-408C-A1A1-D720708DF459@zopyx.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP63C816C70923EFF430693BAA500@phx.gbl>

On 15/04/14 20:48, Andreas Jung wrote:
> You will not reach _all_ different stakeholders through this list.
> An open-space at the conference, a public survey at the conference
> ?something like that would be representative?but peace (but
> there was no war) :-)
>
> Andreas
>
> Am 15.04.2014 um 15:46 schrieb roberto.polli <roberto.polli at babel.it>:
>
>
Except of course for all those that were unable/unwilling to attend for 
one reason or another!

Gadget/Steve

From faassen at startifact.com  Tue Apr 15 21:58:32 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 21:58:32 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <D05BF252-CEE3-4D75-BE4F-BE7314DF1AEC@zopyx.com>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+cMOiMzkPuqeNxx-dVv2c8mAsaY0pEviEXf5HevfqM2Xa=Ngw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D05BF252-CEE3-4D75-BE4F-BE7314DF1AEC@zopyx.com>
Message-ID: <lik319$37n$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/15/2014 08:56 PM, Andreas Jung wrote:
> I think it is neither the right place

Oh, sorry, what is the right mailing list to bring this up?

> nor the right way

You don't want feedback with constructive intent?

> nor the right time to discuss

Should I have brought it up earlier or later? What is in time for 2015, say?

> what the reasonable length of a conference is.

> There are geeks that
> want to spend a lot of time at the conference with talks and sprints, there are
> people that are only interested in the talk but in sprints, there are python dev
> that come for training and talks and perhaps not sprints?..too many different expectations.

I didn't realize the research on this was done. Could I see it?

I'm also confused as to why you're making an argument in this discussion 
when this is not the right place, right way or the right time to discuss 
this.

> You will never bring all expectations under one hood.

Okay, in this case my proposal is that each year we do a 
random.randint(1, 6) (a 6 sided die) and that's the length of the 
conference.

Sarcasm aside, more seriously:

Andreas, I realize you're probably feeling overloaded about this 
conference, but you just told somebody who tried to give constructive 
criticism and bring up a topic that ties directly into the speaker 
selection debate that's going on anyway to shut up and go away. It's not 
appreciated and I'm feeling strongly inclined to do just that right now. 
Bye.

Regards,

Martijn



From nelle.varoquaux at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 22:23:31 2014
From: nelle.varoquaux at gmail.com (Nelle Varoquaux)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 22:23:31 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <9513994.k1tEICTjXv@rpolli>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <9513994.k1tEICTjXv@rpolli>
Message-ID: <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>

On Apr 15, 2014 3:25 PM, "Roberto Polli" <roberto.polli at babel.it> wrote:
>
> Hi @all,
>
> On Tuesday 15 April 2014 02:28:50 Lynn Root wrote:
> > For those of you who do not know me..
> Everybody.py knows you, Lynn!
>
> > - talk selection was/is being done blindly, as in no identifying
> > information about the speaker is revealed
> > -#2 there are very little women on that preliminary talk list slated to
> > speak
> > -#3 there are multiple selected speakers slated to give multiple
selected
> > talks
>
> > If you do not find a problem with item #2 and #3, please read this
> > article [1] about importance of diversity in a technical field.
> I agree diversity (of speakers/subjects) is a value, in every declination
> (we're not only our gender).
>
> I'm sure Guido van Rossum and Alex Martelli could have send ten (all award
> winning) talks. But a  two-rockstar conference doesn't mean a better
> conference for the community.
>
> I think the committee consider that, and made their choice.
>
> > Here are my suggestions to rectify this issue:
> > - limit speakers to only give one talk. Yes this means going back on the
> > original acceptance.
> imho we could gently ask to the selected speakers to give away one or more
> talk in favor of the others: limiting the talks to one is unfair at the
> moment. And I'm sure that we'll reach the same aim without forcing out
> anybody.
>
> > - reopen CfP and reach out to PyLadies globally to help get the word
> > out. As one of the main leaders of the global organization, I know this
> > did not happen originally.
> Not entirely fair, even for ladies awaiting for the final schedule.
> I agree instead to set gender quotas (eg. 40% minimum for the
less-represented
> gender). But imho rules should be set *before* the review process.

As a member of a "minority ", I feel very uncomfortable with such quotas,
and if you ask women in computer science around Europe, they tend to feel
the same way (this may be very different in North America, as we have two
very different cultures when coming to these subject). I want my proposal
to be accepted for my work and not because I'm a woman, and I don't think
I'll ever submit to a conference where such rules are applied.

I also think it gives a very negative image of women in science, specially
when the abstracts are just not good (an abstract accepted at pycon us
contained an error in the name of a python module *in the title* - it is
hard to take the talk seriously, and this is a disservice to do to the
speaker).

>
> > - re-review the talks. Give preference or help for those who would be
> > first time speakers.
> Agree to some precedence to first-time speakers and grow our community.
>
> > ..create general availability during the time that the CfP is reopened
> > to help those who want it craft a good proposal.
> imho again: reopening is unfair towards people who made their homework ;)
> During the review process, author had all the time to browse all
proposals and
> fix their one.
>
> > ... the blind selection ... the result is troubling...
> Identifying authors won't have changed anything, but in any case I'm on
the
> full-disclosure side.
>
> > But this email is to address what I feel needs to change.
> Thx for writing! Your contribution is always a precious spark!
>
> Peace,
> R.
>
>
> >
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/technology/technologys-man-problem.html?_r
> > =0 _______________________________________________
> > EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> > EuroPython mailing list
> > EuroPython at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>
> --
> Roberto Polli
> Community Manager
> Babel - a business unit of Par-Tec S.p.A. - http://www.babel.it
> T: +39.06.9826.9651 M: +39.340.652.2736 F: +39.06.9826.9680
> P.zza S.Benedetto da Norcia, 33 - 00040 Pomezia (Roma)
>
> CONFIDENZIALE: Questo messaggio ed i suoi allegati sono di carattere
> confidenziale per i destinatari in indirizzo.
> E' vietato l'inoltro non autorizzato a destinatari diversi da quelli
indicati
> nel messaggio originale.
> Se ricevuto per errore, l'uso del contenuto e' proibito; si prega di
> comunicarlo al mittente e cancellarlo immediatamente.
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
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From horst at zerokspot.com  Tue Apr 15 22:33:14 2014
From: horst at zerokspot.com (Horst Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:33:14 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>

Hi Martjin,

I definitely see where you're coming from having had the same reaction at first when I saw the schedule for the first Europython in Florence a couple of years back. For me personally, though, the idea of making your own conference worked really well in the end.

Every conference I've attended so far had at least on or two time slots each day where none of the talks appealed to me and so I went to explore the city or just got some sleep at the hotel. This way the event stayed fresh and exciting to me and I didn't feel bad for skipping some talks if I simply didn't feel like it. That naturally only works to a certain extend and eventually I just want to get out of the conference again.

In accordance with Andreas' comment I prefer 4 days of sessions with 3 days of sprints, but these are just my 2c. 5 days is a really long time, so perhaps the orgas and the EPS would be willing to experiment here with the format a little bit I the future? :-)

Cheers, Horst

> On 15.04.2014, at 09:04, Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> I thought I'd give my preferences for conference length in the future. It's just my point of view, but I had it for a while now, and I figure I'd better share it to be more constructive.
> 
> For some years, EuroPython was 3 days of conference, with perhaps 3 or 4 parallel tracks with talks. From what I recall from the early days, we got about as many talk submissions as we had talk slots available.
> 
> At some point a few training days got tacked on to the beginning. We also gained a tradition of sprints before or after the conference, later on getting established at the end, where I think they should be. I myself greatly enjoy sprints as an opportunity to get to know people better and work with them.
> 
> In the last few years EuroPython grew to a conference with many more parallel tracks, and more days of conference proper. 5 or so. And then sprints.
> 
> I haven't been to EuroPython for a few years for other reasons. But when I peeked at the massive and long schedule I did feel rather intimidated. It feels a bit too much like a marathon to me. I prefer my conference to be shorter. I also feel such a long conference risks diluting the talks anyone finds interesting over a longer period, making the whole experience less inspiring. And while I enjoy the hallway track, I prefer doing sprints.
> 
> I take it the training sessions got spread into the main conference and that's why it's longer. But I wonder whether the ballooning schedule is also because the amount of talk submissions went up, and following the pattern of accepting as many submitted talks as possible like we used to have, the conference felt it had to grow to more days and more slots too. If this is so, I think we should consider whether this is the right response to more talk submissions, or whether a better response is to simply reject more talks.
> 
> I think this relates to the discussion on diversity of talks. On the preliminary schedule, quite a few speakers have two accepted talks, or even three. For a more inspiring conference, I'd prefer to see more different speakers, more viewpoints, not the same speaker multiple times, however good they may be, and however interesting the topic.
> 
> Perhaps an exception can be made if a particular category of submissions, like trainings, don't get enough submissions otherwise, but if submissions > talk slots, I think 1 accepted talk per speaker is a good idea. To avoid people gaming the system to increase their chances they're accepted, perhaps 1 *submitted* talk per speaker would be a good idea too.
> 
> For even more diversity of topics, throw in more wild card talks too that are only peripheral to Python, and not just for the keynote speeches. To me that's more inspiring. (I haven't studied the schedule in detail yet though, so it's possible they're there)
> 
> I was told by @europython on Twitter I wasn't required to show up for 5 days of talks. I can make my own, shorter conference. So do I cut off the beginning or the end? I'd prefer the sprints, so I guess I should show up in day 3? What if a talk I submitted gets scheduled to day 2, though? Or if I actually prefer seeing the talks on day 1 and 2? Now I have to make those difficult choices myself.
> 
> Nobody has to care about what I want of course if it's just me. But perhaps I'm not the only one. And maybe bits of my analysis make sense to others. Nobody will find out if nobody talks about it, so that's why I did here.
> 
> Thanks for doing all the hard work in organizing this; I know it's not easy.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martijn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

From horst at zerokspot.com  Tue Apr 15 22:35:45 2014
From: horst at zerokspot.com (Horst Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:35:45 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <lik319$37n$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+cMOiMzkPuqeNxx-dVv2c8mAsaY0pEviEXf5HevfqM2Xa=Ngw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D05BF252-CEE3-4D75-BE4F-BE7314DF1AEC@zopyx.com> <lik319$37n$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <91067A6B-7E0F-430E-8AC7-B457A4562EF1@zerokspot.com>



> On 15.04.2014, at 15:58, Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 04/15/2014 08:56 PM, Andreas Jung wrote:
>> I think it is neither the right place
> 
> Oh, sorry, what is the right mailing list to bring this up?
> 
>> nor the right way
> 
> You don't want feedback with constructive intent?
> 
>> nor the right time to discuss
> 
> Should I have brought it up earlier or later? What is in time for 2015, say?

@Andreas If this is not the right place nor the right time fork constructive discussions about the europython format then please let us know where such a place it to take the discussion there and perhaps rename this mailing list accordingly ;-)
> 
>> what the reasonable length of a conference is.
> 
>> There are geeks that
>> want to spend a lot of time at the conference with talks and sprints, there are
>> people that are only interested in the talk but in sprints, there are python dev
>> that come for training and talks and perhaps not sprints?..too many different expectations.
> 
> I didn't realize the research on this was done. Could I see it?
> 
> I'm also confused as to why you're making an argument in this discussion when this is not the right place, right way or the right time to discuss this.
> 
>> You will never bring all expectations under one hood.
> 
> Okay, in this case my proposal is that each year we do a random.randint(1, 6) (a 6 sided die) and that's the length of the conference.
> 
> Sarcasm aside, more seriously:
> 
> Andreas, I realize you're probably feeling overloaded about this conference, but you just told somebody who tried to give constructive criticism and bring up a topic that ties directly into the speaker selection debate that's going on anyway to shut up and go away. It's not appreciated and I'm feeling strongly inclined to do just that right now. Bye.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martijn
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

From arigo at tunes.org  Tue Apr 15 23:06:43 2014
From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:06:43 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <9513994.k1tEICTjXv@rpolli>
 <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMSv6X3jtbTcN6iX6f8bYF5ru_MwnQgBDkruRFi=710jirGWKw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all, hi Nelle,

On 15 April 2014 22:23, Nelle Varoquaux <nelle.varoquaux at gmail.com> wrote:
> As a member of a "minority ", I feel very uncomfortable with such quotas,
> and if you ask women in computer science around Europe, they tend to feel
> the same way (this may be very different in North America, as we have two
> very different cultures when coming to these subject). I want my proposal to
> be accepted for my work and not because I'm a woman, and I don't think I'll
> ever submit to a conference where such rules are applied.
>
> I also think it gives a very negative image of women in science, specially
> when the abstracts are just not good (an abstract accepted at pycon us
> contained an error in the name of a python module *in the title* - it is
> hard to take the talk seriously, and this is a disservice to do to the
> speaker).

I'll take the risk of projecting a misogynistic image of myself, just
to give you a thumb-up.  Adding rules to promote a member of a
minority group looks to me, at best, artificial.  In this case, woman
participation is going slowly up year after year.  I certainly think
(and hope!) that it's not just because of favorable discrimination;
instead, it is most probably just a slow process of natural regulation
that occurs inside a historically strongly biased subculture.  This
process can be encouraged, e.g. I'm fine if some grants are reserved
to women; but I think that judging technical merits on a different
scale is not a good way to do that.


A bient?t,

Armin.

From hs at ox.cx  Tue Apr 15 23:10:17 2014
From: hs at ox.cx (Hynek Schlawack)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 17:10:17 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <9513994.k1tEICTjXv@rpolli>
 <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <922A6DE1-5C31-4D44-9D4B-77C368F93199@ox.cx>

On 15 Apr 2014, at 16:23, Nelle Varoquaux wrote:

>> Not entirely fair, even for ladies awaiting for the final schedule.
>> I agree instead to set gender quotas (eg. 40% minimum for the
> less-represented
>> gender). But imho rules should be set *before* the review process.
> As a member of a "minority ", I feel very uncomfortable with such 
> quotas,
> and if you ask women in computer science around Europe, they tend to 
> feel
> the same way (this may be very different in North America, as we have 
> two
> very different cultures when coming to these subject).

I would be very careful with such blanket statements; Scandinavian 
countries had quotas for decades.

But this is an overall derailment, because there is a *huge* gap between 
?not doing enough active outreach? (and thus not getting enough 
proposals) and ?setting hard quotas? (and thus accepting 
sub-standard proposals just to fulfill them).

The truth is somewhere in between.

> I want my proposal
> to be accepted for my work and not because I'm a woman, and I don't 
> think
> I'll ever submit to a conference where such rules are applied.

That would assume that being a woman is a sufficient requirement.  
Quotas *should* mean that the PC has to look harder and actively reach 
out to potential target groups.  It?s a logical ?and? operation, 
not an ?or?.

From amirouche.boubekki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 23:11:27 2014
From: amirouche.boubekki at gmail.com (Amirouche Boubekki)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:11:27 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <9513994.k1tEICTjXv@rpolli>
 <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL7_Mo8X_FgE81DwsXUXHZn8=61E6vaQH=U25O3WWePs9vfwVQ@mail.gmail.com>

2014-04-15 22:23 GMT+02:00 Nelle Varoquaux <nelle.varoquaux at gmail.com>:

>
> On Apr 15, 2014 3:25 PM, "Roberto Polli" <roberto.polli at babel.it> wrote:
> >
> > Hi @all,
> >
> > On Tuesday 15 April 2014 02:28:50 Lynn Root wrote:
> > > For those of you who do not know me..
> > Everybody.py knows you, Lynn!
> >
> > > - talk selection was/is being done blindly, as in no identifying
> > > information about the speaker is revealed
> > > -#2 there are very little women on that preliminary talk list slated to
> > > speak
> > > -#3 there are multiple selected speakers slated to give multiple
> selected
> > > talks
> >
> > > If you do not find a problem with item #2 and #3, please read this
> > > article [1] about importance of diversity in a technical field.
> > I agree diversity (of speakers/subjects) is a value, in every declination
> > (we're not only our gender).
> >
> > I'm sure Guido van Rossum and Alex Martelli could have send ten (all
> award
> > winning) talks. But a  two-rockstar conference doesn't mean a better
> > conference for the community.
> >
> > I think the committee consider that, and made their choice.
> >
> > > Here are my suggestions to rectify this issue:
> > > - limit speakers to only give one talk. Yes this means going back on
> the
> > > original acceptance.
> > imho we could gently ask to the selected speakers to give away one or
> more
> > talk in favor of the others: limiting the talks to one is unfair at the
> > moment. And I'm sure that we'll reach the same aim without forcing out
> > anybody.
> >
> > > - reopen CfP and reach out to PyLadies globally to help get the word
> > > out. As one of the main leaders of the global organization, I know this
> > > did not happen originally.
> > Not entirely fair, even for ladies awaiting for the final schedule.
> > I agree instead to set gender quotas (eg. 40% minimum for the
> less-represented
> > gender). But imho rules should be set *before* the review process.
>
> As a member of a "minority ", I feel very uncomfortable with such quotas,
> and if you ask women in computer science around Europe, they tend to feel
> the same way (this may be very different in North America, as we have two
> very different cultures when coming to these subject). I want my proposal
> to be accepted for my work and not because I'm a woman, and I don't think
> I'll ever submit to a conference where such rules are applied.
>
Mostly agree, in the sens that the community should aim for good
representation. Setting a quota as a definitive unbreackable rule can
undermine the "cause" and the event. That said quotas doesn't necessarly
mean to lower the quality of the event. Especially since different equals
in some minds to low quality. Even so it might be more relevant to the fact
that the context is poor for the quality to be at the perceived good
quality level e.g. lone wolf development, niche subject etc... The subject
and ideas might still be interesting, even when the next startup bus stop
is no where near in the foreseeable future. This strikingly reminds me of
myself and others (I'm not saying I have something to talk about in Py
events). This might be just a bias and I've read no scientific papers
relating "marginal behavior in marginal people" or I don't need to. A
"break the loop" thinking pattern that deep down settled in my brain
against which I don't even try to fight that much, since it introduced me
twice to the "wonderful" noosphere of the evil snake while making my life
easier.

"Breaking the loop" is another way to say "open up". It's kind of
depressing and enlightening for me to remind myself and others of this.
Anyway, I would have gladly paid twice as much as current price to be able
to listen to Mez Breeze and being able to discuss it with fellow
Pythonistas.

My 30 mins.



>  I also think it gives a very negative image of women in science,
> specially when the abstracts are just not good (an abstract accepted at
> pycon us contained an error in the name of a python module *in the title* -
> it is hard to take the talk seriously, and this is a disservice to do to
> the speaker).
>
> >
> > > - re-review the talks. Give preference or help for those who would be
> > > first time speakers.
> > Agree to some precedence to first-time speakers and grow our community.
> >
> > > ..create general availability during the time that the CfP is reopened
> > > to help those who want it craft a good proposal.
> > imho again: reopening is unfair towards people who made their homework ;)
> > During the review process, author had all the time to browse all
> proposals and
> > fix their one.
> >
> > > ... the blind selection ... the result is troubling...
> > Identifying authors won't have changed anything, but in any case I'm on
> the
> > full-disclosure side.
> >
> > > But this email is to address what I feel needs to change.
> > Thx for writing! Your contribution is always a precious spark!
> >
> > Peace,
> > R.
> >
> >
> > >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/technology/technologys-man-problem.html?_r
> > > =0 _______________________________________________
> > > EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> > > EuroPython mailing list
> > > EuroPython at python.org
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> >
> > --
> > Roberto Polli
> > Community Manager
> > Babel - a business unit of Par-Tec S.p.A. - http://www.babel.it
> > T: +39.06.9826.9651 M: +39.340.652.2736 F: +39.06.9826.9680
> > P.zza S.Benedetto da Norcia, 33 - 00040 Pomezia (Roma)
> >
> > CONFIDENZIALE: Questo messaggio ed i suoi allegati sono di carattere
> > confidenziale per i destinatari in indirizzo.
> > E' vietato l'inoltro non autorizzato a destinatari diversi da quelli
> indicati
> > nel messaggio originale.
> > Se ricevuto per errore, l'uso del contenuto e' proibito; si prega di
> > comunicarlo al mittente e cancellarlo immediatamente.
> > _______________________________________________
> > EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> > EuroPython mailing list
> > EuroPython at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014 ? Berlin, 21th?27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>
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From faassen at startifact.com  Tue Apr 15 23:28:59 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:28:59 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
Message-ID: <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hey,

On 04/15/2014 10:33 PM, Horst Gutmann wrote:
 > Every conference I've attended so far had at least on or two time
 > slots each day where none of the talks appealed to me and so I went
 > to explore the city or just got some sleep at the hotel. This way the
 > event stayed fresh and exciting to me and I didn't feel bad for
 > skipping some talks if I simply didn't feel like it. That naturally
 > only works to a certain extend and eventually I just want to get out
 > of the conference again.

I guess that's one way to deal with it (especially in Florence!). But I 
wonder whether that's a way to cope with a problem: should there be time 
slots at a conference with 3 or 4 or more parallel tracks where none of 
the talks appeal to an attendee? Of course you can't please everyone, 
but if it happens to a lot of people you might have a problem.

When I'm at a conference I tend to want to focus on it. At the third day 
of a three day conference I typically notice I am getting tired. I'm 
glad that lightning talks tend to be slotted in then at EuroPython, 
because that's always a nice variety of things.

Then there's the potential issue of people who simply don't have time 
(or resources) to go to a conference of that length. They can of course 
attend it for a couple of days, but people may instead elect to go to a 
shorter conference instead where they can have the full experience. It's 
hard to get a feel for that though; EuroPython certainly has been 
growing in attendance, so that's an argument against that.

[snip]
 > 5 days is a really long
 > time, so perhaps the orgas and the EPS would be willing to experiment
 > here with the format a little bit I the future? :-)

It seems to have been a slow change.

 From the beginning in 2002, it had been a 3 day conference; in 
Charleroi, in Gothenburg, in 2006 at CERN and in 2007 and 2008 in 
Vilnius there was a 3 day conference too.

In 2009 in Birmingham there were 3 main conference days, plus 3 tutorial 
days before it. This might be the introduction of the tutorial days; 
it's possible there were tutorial days at some previous EuroPython, but 
certainly not all the time -- I find it hard to google up the schedules now.

I misremember EuroPython 2010 in Birmingham (the last time I attended); 
I thought it was like 2009, but best I can find now it had 4 days of 
main conference, plus two days of tutorials in the weekend before it. 
But I cannot Google up the time table so I'm not 100% sure.

I can find an announcement from 2010/11/18 for the conference in 2011 
where the tentative schedule was 2 tutorial days with 4 conference days, 
the same as in 2010 in Birmingham. Then the dates were shifted 
(2011/02/17) to have everything from monday to friday (5 days, talk days 
in parallel with tutorial).

Since I last attended in 2010 and actually forgot it was 4 days in 
Birmingham and was used to 3 day conferences before it, the 5 day 
massive schedule looked rather sudden, but it was not.

Each new format was a reasonable small change from the format of the 
year before. Each change had a motivation, but I wonder whether the 
final effect was entirely intentional.

Regards,

Martijn



From daniel.kraft at d9t.de  Tue Apr 15 23:37:22 2014
From: daniel.kraft at d9t.de (Daniel Kraft)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:37:22 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <9513994.k1tEICTjXv@rpolli>
 <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <626690218.174930.1397597842142.JavaMail.zimbra@d9t.de>

Nelle,

> As a member of a "minority ", I feel very uncomfortable with such quotas, and
> if you ask women in computer science around Europe, they tend to feel the
> same way (this may be very different in North America, as we have two very
> different cultures when coming to these subject). I want my proposal to be
> accepted for my work and not because I'm a woman, and I don't think I'll
> ever submit to a conference where such rules are applied.

same with me and I even don't care about minorities if they don't add diversity or value to the concrete case. But women, old people and eco-activists (not exclusively) actually ADD diversity AND value to joung and possibly male listeners at a tech conference as far as I had the privilege to learn for myself. And the value of what they say is often not probably described in the papers or valued by the reviewers. For an example of this value, just view some TED talks, which are eye-opening and from really different people.

SO,
how many women were among the reviewers? Men an women tend to prefer different words (male and female words) and so would possibly vote for different talks, just because their vocabulary is more familiar. So there might be quite "some" imbalance on the anonymous reviews.

Optimisically I think quotas are unnecessary. But it turns out that the majority often (even if not willingly) surpresses the minorities - not just women. And this is bad for all of us for different reasons, and I think we're at a point where we all know this. We're simply often unable as individuals to work around this issue.

Now we have two options (correct me please!):
1. We accept this imbalance for EP2014 which would disappoint me really and which would hurt the conference experience
2. We do something about it

I have no concrete idea about "2", partly because I don't have all CFP and reviewer voting data. But two talks from women is just WAY too less.

And btw: stop ranting and make proposals for "2"

My proposal (which invalidates the "no concrete idea"):
Repeat 1 week of reviews for all reviewers but add women so they reach their representative amount of ~47% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_ratio).

Daniel

From faassen at startifact.com  Wed Apr 16 00:26:59 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 00:26:59 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <CAMSv6X3jtbTcN6iX6f8bYF5ru_MwnQgBDkruRFi=710jirGWKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <9513994.k1tEICTjXv@rpolli>
 <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMSv6X3jtbTcN6iX6f8bYF5ru_MwnQgBDkruRFi=710jirGWKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <likbnj$c5t$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/15/2014 11:06 PM, Armin Rigo wrote:

 > In this case, woman
 > participation is going slowly up year after year.  I certainly think
 > (and hope!) that it's not just because of favorable discrimination;
 > instead, it is most probably just a slow process of natural regulation
 > that occurs inside a historically strongly biased subculture.  This
 > process can be encouraged, e.g. I'm fine if some grants are reserved
 > to women; but I think that judging technical merits on a different
 > scale is not a good way to do that.

There are a lot of things that can be done instead of quotas.

I think one function of a Python conference is to help foster the Python 
community. If we agree that we would like to have more women speakers 
and participants, or just plain broaden the nature of our conference in 
general, then you can actively work towards in a whole range of ways:

* Looking for high-profile female invited speakers.

* Broadening the scope of topics. The conference should still be Python 
themed, but the occasional talk about, say, morality or astronomy or 
game development or business can be fit in. I remember such talks from 
previous EuroPythons. Keynotes tend to do this already, but there's no 
reason to restrict this to keynotes. I myself find that such variety 
improves the conference and makes it more inspirational for me.

* Considering whether we want a self-selected democracy for anonymously 
selecting talks based on individual merits, or whether we want to 
involve other methods too. Say a smaller group of people that looks at 
the overall balance of things.

* Judging talk proposals on other things than technical merit only. 
Originality, presentation, humor, all of these count. Armin is a good 
example actually: your talks wouldn't be half as much fun for people 
without your presentation style. This may be written down somewhere 
already for all I know in the talk selection guidelines actually, but if 
not, that may make sense.

* Having women visibly be present at the conference. PyCon DE last year 
was a good example; there were a lot of women involved with its 
organization. You can also make this visible explicitly, like at PyCon 
DE: everybody involved was called onto the stage in the end. I 
understand many of them are involved in the organization of EuroPython 
this year. I would certainly recommend getting folks on the stage again 
at some point (though I would be bold enough to ask whether you could 
speed up that procedure compared to PyCon DE).

* As was proposed, simply increase variety of speakers by having each 
speaker only have one talk.

* Active outreach to PyLadies and such. It's my understanding that this 
exactly that was done.

* Some conferences let sponsors give some talks. That's a tricky thing 
to get right. But here's a less controversial idea: for a community 
organized conference I think it's fair if active organizers get a good 
chance at getting *their* talk submissions approved. And then if 
PyLadies is involved...

* Grants, as you mention.

Some of these ideas *do* influence the talk selection process, but not 
in the form of quotas. The talk selection process is influenced by many 
factors already, and we shouldn't pretend that the current way is only 
fair way to do things.

PyCon is the obvious place to go look for more/better ideas.

Regards,

Martijn



From lac at openend.se  Wed Apr 16 01:24:24 2014
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 01:24:24 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: Message from Martijn Faassen <faassen@startifact.com>
 of "Wed, 16 Apr 2014 00:26:59 +0200." <likbnj$c5t$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <9513994.k1tEICTjXv@rpolli>
 <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMSv6X3jtbTcN6iX6f8bYF5ru_MwnQgBDkruRFi=710jirGWKw@mail.gmail.com><likbnj$c5t$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <201404152324.s3FNOOKq025627@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 16 Apr 2014 00:26:59 +0200, Martijn Faassen writes:
>* Considering whether we want a self-selected democracy for anonymously 
>selecting talks based on individual merits, or whether we want to 
>involve other methods too. Say a smaller group of people that looks at 
>the overall balance of things.

I've never seen a relationship between the quality of the proposal and the
quality of the talk.  But then, I may be valuing talks for different things.
The thing I care most about is _who_ is presenting the thing.

To give a concrete example -- Armin Rigo isn't a particularly good speaker.
He's been known to write some fairly bad proposals, as well.  It would be 
extremely simple to find somebody who writes English better than Armin does,
who speaks with less of an accent, and who organises his or her talks in such
a way that people who are not at all familiar with the topic do not feel
excluded.

And I don't care.  While it could be nice to have a hypothetical PyPy talk 
by such a speaker, if due to time and space constraints, I can only have one,
I want the one by Armin.  I _always_ want the one by one of the principal 
developers of the program involved, regardless of their merit as a speaker,
because what I want to hear is whatever the principal developers of the thing
want to show and tell me, precisely because of who they are.

Other people, it is clear,  have very different priorities.

Laura


From lac at openend.se  Wed Apr 16 02:16:58 2014
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 02:16:58 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
Message-ID: <201404160016.s3G0GwNa026564@fido.openend.se>

The EP mailing list is configured so that it has:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

while the footer has:
EuroPython 2014 \x96 Berlin, 21th\x9627th July

Notice the two \x96 characters.  The intent is almost certainly to have those
interpreted in the windows-1252 charset, where they mean an en-dash.

But in us-ascii, this is an illegal character.  And my mailer complains 
bitterly about the problem.

So it looks like we need to fix 2 things.  The first is to change the charset
from "us-ascii" to something more reasonable, especially since most European 
languages do not fit into ascii -- utf-8 perhaps?

And the second thing is to change the footer text to have whatever is an
en-dash in whatever charset we decide to use.

Are there any reasons not to move to utf-8 ?

Laura


From tom at viner.tv  Wed Apr 16 10:24:34 2014
From: tom at viner.tv (Tom Viner)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:24:34 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CANBSuyF9d92q6YrdQTJe_o-db6BbG-TMtE=fcZrL9gjameSE0Q@mail.gmail.com>

For those who prefer a shorter Python conference, may I recommend the
excellent PyConUK in September (and presumably other "national" conferences
- in quotes because there's a good spread of nationalities present in my
experience). See http://2013.pyconuk.org/#Agenda for an idea of the
schedule from last year.

And see http://pyconuk.org/ for this year where you can now book tickets -
some early birding may still be possible!


On 15 April 2014 22:28, Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com> wrote:

> Hey,
>
>
> On 04/15/2014 10:33 PM, Horst Gutmann wrote:
> > Every conference I've attended so far had at least on or two time
> > slots each day where none of the talks appealed to me and so I went
> > to explore the city or just got some sleep at the hotel. This way the
> > event stayed fresh and exciting to me and I didn't feel bad for
> > skipping some talks if I simply didn't feel like it. That naturally
> > only works to a certain extend and eventually I just want to get out
> > of the conference again.
>
> I guess that's one way to deal with it (especially in Florence!). But I
> wonder whether that's a way to cope with a problem: should there be time
> slots at a conference with 3 or 4 or more parallel tracks where none of the
> talks appeal to an attendee? Of course you can't please everyone, but if it
> happens to a lot of people you might have a problem.
>
> When I'm at a conference I tend to want to focus on it. At the third day
> of a three day conference I typically notice I am getting tired. I'm glad
> that lightning talks tend to be slotted in then at EuroPython, because
> that's always a nice variety of things.
>
> Then there's the potential issue of people who simply don't have time (or
> resources) to go to a conference of that length. They can of course attend
> it for a couple of days, but people may instead elect to go to a shorter
> conference instead where they can have the full experience. It's hard to
> get a feel for that though; EuroPython certainly has been growing in
> attendance, so that's an argument against that.
>
> [snip]
>
> > 5 days is a really long
> > time, so perhaps the orgas and the EPS would be willing to experiment
> > here with the format a little bit I the future? :-)
>
> It seems to have been a slow change.
>
> From the beginning in 2002, it had been a 3 day conference; in Charleroi,
> in Gothenburg, in 2006 at CERN and in 2007 and 2008 in Vilnius there was a
> 3 day conference too.
>
> In 2009 in Birmingham there were 3 main conference days, plus 3 tutorial
> days before it. This might be the introduction of the tutorial days; it's
> possible there were tutorial days at some previous EuroPython, but
> certainly not all the time -- I find it hard to google up the schedules now.
>
> I misremember EuroPython 2010 in Birmingham (the last time I attended); I
> thought it was like 2009, but best I can find now it had 4 days of main
> conference, plus two days of tutorials in the weekend before it. But I
> cannot Google up the time table so I'm not 100% sure.
>
> I can find an announcement from 2010/11/18 for the conference in 2011
> where the tentative schedule was 2 tutorial days with 4 conference days,
> the same as in 2010 in Birmingham. Then the dates were shifted (2011/02/17)
> to have everything from monday to friday (5 days, talk days in parallel
> with tutorial).
>
> Since I last attended in 2010 and actually forgot it was 4 days in
> Birmingham and was used to 3 day conferences before it, the 5 day massive
> schedule looked rather sudden, but it was not.
>
> Each new format was a reasonable small change from the format of the year
> before. Each change had a motivation, but I wonder whether the final effect
> was entirely intentional.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>
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From valerio.maggio at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 10:33:28 2014
From: valerio.maggio at gmail.com (Valerio Maggio)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 10:33:28 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <A9E1F4D1-7329-44A8-ADE3-F27D042C0C1B@sofa-rockers.org>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <534D2802.1050306@ntoll.org> <65289E2E-E3F9-4479-BFDE-49815EAE2466@ox.cx>
 <A9E1F4D1-7329-44A8-ADE3-F27D042C0C1B@sofa-rockers.org>
Message-ID: <17D49692-D905-4F47-BFC8-CAC3BBACF481@gmail.com>

Hi everyone.

On 15 Apr 2014, at 16:03, Stefan Scherfke <stefan at sofa-rockers.org> wrote:
> 
> Am 2014-04-15 um 15:07 schrieb Hynek Schlawack <hs at ox.cx>:
> 
>> - Having speakers have 3 slots is ridiculous, 2 should be a very rare exception.  So ask them which talk is more important and there you have some free slots.
> 
> I wrote an email to the EP help desk a few days ago and offered to withdraw one
> of my talks in order to give someone else the chance to present his/her ideas.

I did exactly the same, of course.

I do believe that **diversity** is a very important thing (in general), which turns to be even more important for a conference like EuroPython, where there are a lot of people who would like to contribute.
Thus different perspectives on both sides, i.e., talks' proposers and reviewers, are surely needed to make this possible.

This community and this conference deserve a very high quality list of talks, and there are many valuable proposals that are still waiting to be accepted. 
So not a problem at all in withdrawing one (or more, if needed) proposals to favour somebody else !-)

Btw, as for clarification, I would like to point out that the list of the talks reported so far refers **only** to the talks that have been accepted after the first round of reviews, i.e., they got only +0 and +1 ratings after the first round.
Thus, the organisers didn't make any additional decisions on these talks that changed the original results of the community voting/reviews :-)
They took the entire list as it was after the first round of reviews, filtering out training proposals, namely 72 talks out of 86 accepted (as far as I know, btw!)

That said, I would kindly suggest the organisers to publish as soon as possible some statistics about submitted talks, corresponding reviews and reviewers.
In this way, It would be easier to reason about possible remedies and workaround to tackle this situation.

For example, I'm wondering if limiting one single talk per speaker would be enough to reach the total number of talks required for the conference. Maybe yes, but only *numbers* can speak :)

m2c. 


All the Best,
Valerio


From funthyme at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 11:12:30 2014
From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 10:12:30 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] R: Re: conference length
In-Reply-To: <6q4apqbqt6dnh5lcxbkhb9jm.1397591214244@email.android.com>
References: <6q4apqbqt6dnh5lcxbkhb9jm.1397591214244@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAB-vKOSN2UVg85o0HUTpBS+eFgj4=Tp6nEQxARcStg7XDQ_RdQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All,

On 15 April 2014 20:46, roberto.polli <roberto.polli at babel.it> wrote:
> Right time to discuss: no.
> Right Place to discuss: probably yes.

In fact : NO!

The correct place to discuss this is the europython-improve list,
which was established specifically to discuss improving EuroPython,
keeping the EP list free of contention.

europython-improve seems to have been abandoned this this year, with
the result that the 'ordinary' delegate has at times been inundated
with morale-busting bike-shedding.
>
> Enough said for me, people.
>
> Peace.

+1024

Best wishes,

John
--

From roberto.polli at babel.it  Wed Apr 16 11:16:09 2014
From: roberto.polli at babel.it (Roberto Polli)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:16:09 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks - a fix
	for EP14?
In-Reply-To: <likbnj$c5t$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAMSv6X3jtbTcN6iX6f8bYF5ru_MwnQgBDkruRFi=710jirGWKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <likbnj$c5t$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <3045076.82xVNWR9sT@rpolli>

The thread is forking fastly: I suggest to move proposed patches  to a new 
thread (this one?) and continue general discussion on the old one.

We could even create a single thread for each of the following patch.

A list follows.
Peace,
R.

# Reopening C4P
imho it's unfair against people who did their homework: this could even damage 
the equality cause.


# One talk per speaker
Seems everybody agrees. I think that two can be a very special case.
imho: annunced speakers can't be forced out, only invited to renounce to a 
slot.


# Quotas @EP14
I understand the "quotas are offensive" argumentation: but capping the most-
representative gender could even favor "males".

conference_value > sum(talk_values)

@Nelle: applying quotas only to promoted talks, we won't damage level: many 
good proposals were discarded, and the "EP scientific committee" is not the 
ACM, as they consider other things (which we may subscribe or not :D ).


# Diversity slots @EP14
Those slots are fine, but I will leave the talk selection to Nelle ;)






On Wednesday 16 April 2014 00:26:59 Martijn Faassen wrote:
> On 04/15/2014 11:06 PM, Armin Rigo wrote:
>  > In this case, woman
>  > participation is going slowly up year after year.  I certainly think
>  > (and hope!) that it's not just because of favorable discrimination;
>  > instead, it is most probably just a slow process of natural regulation
>  > that occurs inside a historically strongly biased subculture.  This
>  > process can be encouraged, e.g. I'm fine if some grants are reserved
>  > to women; but I think that judging technical merits on a different
>  > scale is not a good way to do that.
> 
> There are a lot of things that can be done instead of quotas.
> 
> I think one function of a Python conference is to help foster the Python
> community. If we agree that we would like to have more women speakers
> and participants, or just plain broaden the nature of our conference in
> general, then you can actively work towards in a whole range of ways:
> 
> * Looking for high-profile female invited speakers.
> 
> * Broadening the scope of topics. The conference should still be Python
> themed, but the occasional talk about, say, morality or astronomy or
> game development or business can be fit in. I remember such talks from
> previous EuroPythons. Keynotes tend to do this already, but there's no
> reason to restrict this to keynotes. I myself find that such variety
> improves the conference and makes it more inspirational for me.
> 
> * Considering whether we want a self-selected democracy for anonymously
> selecting talks based on individual merits, or whether we want to
> involve other methods too. Say a smaller group of people that looks at
> the overall balance of things.
> 
> * Judging talk proposals on other things than technical merit only.
> Originality, presentation, humor, all of these count. Armin is a good
> example actually: your talks wouldn't be half as much fun for people
> without your presentation style. This may be written down somewhere
> already for all I know in the talk selection guidelines actually, but if
> not, that may make sense.
> 
> * Having women visibly be present at the conference. PyCon DE last year
> was a good example; there were a lot of women involved with its
> organization. You can also make this visible explicitly, like at PyCon
> DE: everybody involved was called onto the stage in the end. I
> understand many of them are involved in the organization of EuroPython
> this year. I would certainly recommend getting folks on the stage again
> at some point (though I would be bold enough to ask whether you could
> speed up that procedure compared to PyCon DE).
> 
> * As was proposed, simply increase variety of speakers by having each
> speaker only have one talk.
> 
> * Active outreach to PyLadies and such. It's my understanding that this
> exactly that was done.
> 
> * Some conferences let sponsors give some talks. That's a tricky thing
> to get right. But here's a less controversial idea: for a community
> organized conference I think it's fair if active organizers get a good
> chance at getting *their* talk submissions approved. And then if
> PyLadies is involved...
> 
> * Grants, as you mention.
> 
> Some of these ideas *do* influence the talk selection process, but not
> in the form of quotas. The talk selection process is influenced by many
> factors already, and we shouldn't pretend that the current way is only
> fair way to do things.
> 
> PyCon is the obvious place to go look for more/better ideas.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martijn
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

-- 
Roberto Polli
Community Manager
Babel - a business unit of Par-Tec S.p.A. - http://www.babel.it 
T: +39.06.9826.9651 M: +39.340.652.2736 F: +39.06.9826.9680
P.zza S.Benedetto da Norcia, 33 - 00040 Pomezia (Roma)

CONFIDENZIALE: Questo messaggio ed i suoi allegati sono di carattere 
confidenziale per i destinatari in indirizzo.
E' vietato l'inoltro non autorizzato a destinatari diversi da quelli indicati 
nel messaggio originale.
Se ricevuto per errore, l'uso del contenuto e' proibito; si prega di 
comunicarlo al mittente e cancellarlo immediatamente.

From markuszapke at gmx.net  Wed Apr 16 11:28:00 2014
From: markuszapke at gmx.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Markus_Zapke-Gr=FCndemann?=)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:28:00 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks - a fix
 for EP14?
In-Reply-To: <3045076.82xVNWR9sT@rpolli>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAMSv6X3jtbTcN6iX6f8bYF5ru_MwnQgBDkruRFi=710jirGWKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <likbnj$c5t$1@ger.gmane.org> <3045076.82xVNWR9sT@rpolli>
Message-ID: <534E4D20.9070108@gmx.net>

The most important and urgent thing to do is IMHO to open the CfP again and to
reach out to the communities than can help to get a more diverse program. Lynn
proposed to get in touch with the global PyLadies organization for example.

All the other things can be discussed later.


Regards

Markus

From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 11:56:21 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:56:21 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
Message-ID: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>

Hello,

I have two points:
1. I'm curious what are stats regarding nationality/country of attendees.
2. I've noticed that together with this year edition there are 13 
EuroPythons, where:
* 2 of them were located in former Eastern Bloc countries
* 11 of them were located in Western Countries

Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of 
Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling 
responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in future?

In my opinion the conference that calls itself EuroPython (and for 
example not WestEuroPython) should take that into account.

Regards,
Filip

PS. HINT: organizing conference in less wealthy countries usually (but 
not always) also results in lower conference costs, in result making it 
more accessible to those with "small pockets".

From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Apr 16 12:41:07 2014
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:41:07 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <534E5E43.1030609@ntoll.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 16/04/14 10:56, Filip K??bczyk wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have two points: 1. I'm curious what are stats regarding
> nationality/country of attendees. 2. I've noticed that together
> with this year edition there are 13 EuroPythons, where: * 2 of them
> were located in former Eastern Bloc countries * 11 of them were
> located in Western Countries
> 
> Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level
> of Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody
> feeling responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that
> problem in future?
> 
> In my opinion the conference that calls itself EuroPython (and for 
> example not WestEuroPython) should take that into account.
> 
> Regards, Filip
> 
> PS. HINT: organizing conference in less wealthy countries usually
> (but not always) also results in lower conference costs, in result
> making it more accessible to those with "small pockets".
> 

I was wondering the same. Diversity in a cultural and geographic sense
is important. Especially in such a cosmopolitan & multicultural place
like Europe.

N.

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From ntoll at ntoll.org  Wed Apr 16 12:46:39 2014
From: ntoll at ntoll.org (Nicholas H.Tollervey)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:46:39 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <2F8D7E39-71E8-4779-B97C-D8BC581C5E9A@zopyx.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <534E5E43.1030609@ntoll.org>
 <2F8D7E39-71E8-4779-B97C-D8BC581C5E9A@zopyx.com>
Message-ID: <534E5F8F.3040409@ntoll.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 16/04/14 11:43, Andreas Jung wrote:
> 
> Am 16.04.2014 um 06:41 schrieb Nicholas H.Tollervey
> <ntoll at ntoll.org>:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> I was wondering the same. Diversity in a cultural and geographic
>> sense is important. Especially in such a cosmopolitan &
>> multicultural place like Europe.
>> 
> 
> Diversity (where women are one part of the medal) is a process and
> can not be realized by-law or by-order.
> 
> Andreas
> 

Not sure I understand what you're saying.

I'm certainly *not* suggesting some legal or mandatory process be used
to enforce something or another.

N.
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From ep at zopyx.com  Wed Apr 16 12:43:59 2014
From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 06:43:59 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534E5E43.1030609@ntoll.org>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <534E5E43.1030609@ntoll.org>
Message-ID: <2F8D7E39-71E8-4779-B97C-D8BC581C5E9A@zopyx.com>


Am 16.04.2014 um 06:41 schrieb Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll at ntoll.org>:

> 
> 
> I was wondering the same. Diversity in a cultural and geographic sense
> is important. Especially in such a cosmopolitan & multicultural place
> like Europe.
> 

Diversity (where women are one part of the medal) 
is a process and can not be realized by-law or by-order.

Andreas


From faassen at startifact.com  Wed Apr 16 13:12:17 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:12:17 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <201404152324.s3FNOOKq025627@fido.openend.se>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <9513994.k1tEICTjXv@rpolli>
 <CAE-UAvRqZU0U79wJL+9ko=xH3q6wupjpB4=e4GqbY7WKAcb2tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMSv6X3jtbTcN6iX6f8bYF5ru_MwnQgBDkruRFi=710jirGWKw@mail.gmail.com><likbnj$c5t$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <201404152324.s3FNOOKq025627@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <liloih$q2u$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/16/2014 01:24 AM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> In a message of Wed, 16 Apr 2014 00:26:59 +0200, Martijn Faassen writes:
>> * Considering whether we want a self-selected democracy for anonymously
>> selecting talks based on individual merits, or whether we want to
>> involve other methods too. Say a smaller group of people that looks at
>> the overall balance of things.
>
> I've never seen a relationship between the quality of the proposal and the
> quality of the talk.

That's another problem, yes. That's also why I think looking at the 
overall balance of talks can be a good thing.

 > The thing I care most about is _who_ is presenting the thing.
 >
 > To give a concrete example -- Armin Rigo isn't a particularly good
 > speaker.

It's not important in this discussion, but I beg to disagree. Armin, 
being Armin, has a speaking style all his own, but it's highly 
entertaining to me to watch him speak and he clearly has a sense of 
humor that helps make his talks engaging to people.

> He's been known to write some fairly bad proposals, as well.  It would be
> extremely simple to find somebody who writes English better than Armin does,
> who speaks with less of an accent, and who organises his or her talks in such
> a way that people who are not at all familiar with the topic do not feel
> excluded.
>
> And I don't care.  While it could be nice to have a hypothetical PyPy talk
> by such a speaker, if due to time and space constraints, I can only have one,
> I want the one by Armin.  I _always_ want the one by one of the principal
> developers of the program involved, regardless of their merit as a speaker,
> because what I want to hear is whatever the principal developers of the thing
> want to show and tell me, precisely because of who they are.

I think that's part of being in a community; we know each other and want 
to hear from each other. It's an important aspect of EuroPython, indeed. 
If fostering community is part of the mission of the conference, then it 
should support that. And I think it does that quite well.

I see though that anonymous speaker selection paradoxically risks 
pushing that real desire to see the principal developers speak about 
their project into the "underground", which is where accusations of "old 
boys network" actually seem more plausible than if this speakers were 
known in the open during selection.

But fostering the community also can mean trying to get new people 
involved, with different perspectives and different backgrounds and 
different ideas. I believe that can enrich the community and make the 
conference more inspiring. So we should balance the two. Again, that's 
why looking at the whole mixture of talks is a good thing, besides just 
looking at each individual talk.

Regards,

Martijn



From faassen at startifact.com  Wed Apr 16 13:18:21 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:18:21 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] R: Re: conference length
In-Reply-To: <CAB-vKOSN2UVg85o0HUTpBS+eFgj4=Tp6nEQxARcStg7XDQ_RdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6q4apqbqt6dnh5lcxbkhb9jm.1397591214244@email.android.com>
 <CAB-vKOSN2UVg85o0HUTpBS+eFgj4=Tp6nEQxARcStg7XDQ_RdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <lilott$vfj$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/16/2014 11:12 AM, John Pinner wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> On 15 April 2014 20:46, roberto.polli <roberto.polli at babel.it> wrote:
>> Right time to discuss: no.
>> Right Place to discuss: probably yes.
>
> In fact : NO!
>
> The correct place to discuss this is the europython-improve list,
> which was established specifically to discuss improving EuroPython,
> keeping the EP list free of contention.

I saw that list, but it's a private list that seems to be for EuroPython 
organizers (certainly not me) and active volunteers. Does just giving 
feedback on this make me an "active volunteer"? I don't think so.

Anyway, I don't want to be caught up in a procedural quagmire where I'm 
told I'm sending stuff to the wrong list, and I might need to send stuff 
to a private mailing lists where only organizers are able to respond to 
me and possibly is not used anyway. Can we keep this kind of stuff out 
of this particular discussion please, and have it elsewhere?

Regards,

Martijn



From faassen at startifact.com  Wed Apr 16 13:35:00 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:35:00 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <CANBSuyF9d92q6YrdQTJe_o-db6BbG-TMtE=fcZrL9gjameSE0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CANBSuyF9d92q6YrdQTJe_o-db6BbG-TMtE=fcZrL9gjameSE0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <lilpt4$emb$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/16/2014 10:24 AM, Tom Viner wrote:
> For those who prefer a shorter Python conference, may I recommend the
> excellent PyConUK in September (and presumably other "national"
> conferences - in quotes because there's a good spread of nationalities
> present in my experience). See http://2013.pyconuk.org/#Agenda for an
> idea of the schedule from last year.
>
> And see http://pyconuk.org/ for this year where you can now book tickets
> - some early birding may still be possible!

Yes, I was already considering going to more national conferences. I was 
at PyCon DE last year and enjoyed myself!

But I do like EuroPython where I can meet up with a lot of old friends 
again.

Regards,

Martijn




From faassen at startifact.com  Wed Apr 16 14:27:04 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 14:27:04 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hey,

On 04/16/2014 11:56 AM, Filip K??bczyk wrote:
 > Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of
 > Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling
 > responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in 
future?

You're suggesting active outreach to Python organizations in Eastern 
Europe to see whether they want to host EuroPython? I think that's a 
good idea.

Regards,

Martijn


From ep at zopyx.com  Wed Apr 16 14:43:30 2014
From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:43:30 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>


Am 16.04.2014 um 08:27 schrieb Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com>:

> Hey,
> 
> On 04/16/2014 11:56 AM, Filip K??bczyk wrote:
> > Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of
> > Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling
> > responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in future?
> 
> You're suggesting active outreach to Python organizations in Eastern Europe to see whether they want to host EuroPython? I think that?s
> a good idea.
> 

The selection process has been always open afaik. You need enough people
doing the work, you need to write a proposal and submit it if there is an
EPS call for the next conference. As far as I recall for there was a proposal
by the polish Python community for the 2014/15 conference. There had been 
conferences e.g. like the Plone conference (Python-based CMS) many years
ago in Budapest, several people already added the RuPy in Poland over
the last years?I think there is nobody say ?we don?t want conferences in
Eastern Europe??.it is a question of consensus among the local python user groups
in each country in order to do such an effort. For the sake on completeness: the
2014 Python conference in Ukraine had to be cancelled for well-known  reasons.

Andreas


From holger at merlinux.eu  Wed Apr 16 14:39:17 2014
From: holger at merlinux.eu (holger krekel)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 12:39:17 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20140416123917.GE7198@merlinux.eu>

Hi Lynn,

i am just one member of the programme committee of EP2014 but would like
to share some information and my own perspective on the discussion and
issues.  We hopefully can arrange a committee meeting soon and can
conclude on the path forward, also taking your suggestions into account.
So this mail is no official answer or so but hope it contributes to
clearing things up a bit.

On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 02:28 -0700, Lynn Root wrote:
> To the EuroPython organizers, talk reviewers, and community at large,
> 
> For those of you who do not know me, I am a board member of the Python
> Software Foundation, the founder and leader of PyLadies San Francisco,
> and an engineer at Spotify.  I have been a speaker at the last two
> EuroPythons, with 3 talks last year, and a keynote the year before.

I enjoyed your talks, also the DNS one a few days ago :)

> I see that the list of preliminarily talks are publicly available. Side
> stepping my issue with lack of communication to proposers of talks at
> large, I am writing to bring light to the lack of diversity of the
> current list of talks, and propose some action items.
> 
> There is how I understand things as they are. Please correct me if I am
> wrong.
> 
> - talk selection was/is being done blindly, as in no identifying
> information about the speaker is revealed

Yes, about 250 reviewers went through the 300 submissions and we
got 3-5 reviews on most.  The reviewers could not see other reviewers
comments/evaluations in the first round.  And they could not see
authors or genders or countries.  Which doesn't mean that gender-bias
doesn't take place otherwise, of course.

> - there are very little women on that preliminary talk list slated to
> speak

yes but there are still 50 free slots awaiting allocation.  The
currently published talks include only those which received "+1"s but no
negative ("-0" or "-1").  The others we call the "conflicted talks" and
there are many that got several positive but one negative vote. They
were not included in the first published list.

> - there are multiple selected speakers slated to give multiple selected
> talks

I am not sure how many "multi-talkers" we actually have.  We should be able
to find out shortly.  FWIW i submitted three talks myself and one got accepted
in the first round.  Of the two not-accepted ones there was one that made it 
to Pycon 2014 surviving harsher competition.  On the other hand, one
talk i gave as a well-received keynote at EP2013 was not accepted at all
for Pycon 2014.  So judging from my personal experience, I believe we 
have quite some randomness in talk selection at python conferences.
But that's more of a general sidenote.

> If you do not find a problem with item #2 and #3, please read this
> article [1] about importance of diversity in a technical field.

I also do see a problem particularly in #2.

> Here are my suggestions to rectify this issue:
> - limit speakers to only give one talk. Yes this means going back on the
> original acceptance.

I am certainly fine with asking multi-talkers to cut down.  If the programme
committee revokes already accepted talks is a different question.  I'd like
to see how many cases we actually have.

Do you know, btw, if Pycon 2014 employed a "one talk only" policy?
It seemed to me that some people gave 2 or maybe three talks at Pycon.
And personally, i wouldn't totally rule out the possibility of allowing
more than one talk but such cases should be considered explicitely
and carefully.

> - reopen CfP and reach out to PyLadies globally to help get the word
> out. As one of the main leaders of the global organization, I know this
> did not happen originally.

Working with PyLadies sounds like a great idea and it's bad we missed
out on this so far.  I'd like to discuss the idea of doing an additional
specialized CFP in the context of the still remaining question of the 50
to-be-allocated slots.  Obviously a full re-open of the CFP would be
quite a challenge, also given that eastern and vacations are quickly
approaching.

> - re-review the talks. Give preference or help for those who would be
> first time speakers. First time speakers may need far more help writing
> a proposal tailored to the EuroPython audience. As reviewers, you have
> an understanding of the EP community and should help pull up new
> speakers.

For the 50 remaining slots i'd like to increase focus on "does this talk
help to grow the community" with a particular focus on diversity.  As a
secondary measure, looking through the already accepted talks might be
feasible but i hope we don't need to consider reverting acceptance
against a proposers will.

> - related to #2, and #3, have open office hours  or create general
> availability during the time that the CfP is reopened to help those who
> want it craft a good proposal.
> - select talks for the remainder of the program with the context of the
> preliminarily talks in mind.

right, that's what I'd like to aim for.

> I understand that the blind selection process was meant in good faith to
> remove bias.

I am personally skeptical of the "double blind" selection process.
It probably better fits for answering "is this a valuable study/paper
contributing to the advance of science" rather than the question i see
Python conferences having: "Does this talk interest a part of the
community and does it help to grow our communities? Do we have a
diverse range of topics, countries, personal backgrounds including gender
properly reflected in the schedule?"

> However, the result is troubling, and needs to be looked at
> in context. If this preliminary list has any influence on the actual
> program, the conference will suffer in terms of overall diversity in
> attendance. I'm not writing to discuss the merit of diversity at a tech
> conference, because I have faith that the reviewers and organizers
> already grasp its importance. But this email is to address what I feel
> needs to change.

Thanks a lot Lynn.  I hope we can all work this out and move to a better
direction now.  Hopefully i can say a bit more after we get some more
involved people together, part of which are currently travelling 
or otherwise busy etc.

best and hope you also recover well from the Pycon blast :)
holger


> Thank you,
> 
> Lynn Root
> 
> [1]
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/technology/technologys-man-problem.html?_r=0
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 

From aiste.kesminaite at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 15:34:50 2014
From: aiste.kesminaite at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?QWlzdMSXIEtlc21pbmFpdMSXLUphbmthdXNraWVuxJc=?=)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:34:50 +0300
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>

As far as I remember (and it's been a while) there was a lack of proposals
in general at least in the beginning.  So whoever was serious about
organising EP could do it.
Has this changed over the past years and is there any reason to believe
that proposals are being approved or rejected according to geografy? (I
wouldn't think so, but that's just me.)
On 16 Apr 2014 15:43, "Andreas Jung" <ep at zopyx.com> wrote:

>
> Am 16.04.2014 um 08:27 schrieb Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com>:
>
> > Hey,
> >
> > On 04/16/2014 11:56 AM, Filip K??bczyk wrote:
> > > Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of
> > > Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling
> > > responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in
> future?
> >
> > You're suggesting active outreach to Python organizations in Eastern
> Europe to see whether they want to host EuroPython? I think that?s
> > a good idea.
> >
>
> The selection process has been always open afaik. You need enough people
> doing the work, you need to write a proposal and submit it if there is an
> EPS call for the next conference. As far as I recall for there was a
> proposal
> by the polish Python community for the 2014/15 conference. There had been
> conferences e.g. like the Plone conference (Python-based CMS) many years
> ago in Budapest, several people already added the RuPy in Poland over
> the last years?I think there is nobody say ?we don?t want conferences in
> Eastern Europe??.it is a question of consensus among the local python user
> groups
> in each country in order to do such an effort. For the sake on
> completeness: the
> 2014 Python conference in Ukraine had to be cancelled for well-known
>  reasons.
>
> Andreas
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
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From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 15:52:49 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:52:49 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
Message-ID: <534E8B31.7080902@gmail.com>

W dniu 16.04.2014 14:43, Andreas Jung pisze:
> The selection process has been always open afaik.

Then where are all the proposals shown that were sent for 2014 and 2015 
hosting? Where are the criteria that decided German proposal was better 
than the one from Belgium. In my opinion process is not open and 
transparent.

> You need enough people
> doing the work, you need to write a proposal and submit it if there is an
> EPS call for the next conference. As far as I recall for there was a proposal
> by the polish Python community for the 2014/15 conference.

There wasn't for a good reason. I recommend you to talk to Marc-Andre 
Lemburg, maybe he can explain you how the situation looked like. Also I 
recommend you reading the mails on this mailing list since June 2012.

> There had been
> conferences e.g. like the Plone conference (Python-based CMS) many years
> ago in Budapest, several people already added the RuPy in Poland over
> the last years? I think there is nobody say ?we don?t want conferences in
> Eastern Europe??.it is a question of consensus among the local python user groups
> in each country in order to do such an effort. For the sake on completeness: the
> 2014 Python conference in Ukraine had to be cancelled for well-known  reasons.

Andreas, I think we are talking about Europython here, not about being 
happy that other conferences take place in Eastern Europe.

Regards,
Filip


From faassen at startifact.com  Wed Apr 16 15:53:41 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:53:41 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <20140416123917.GE7198@merlinux.eu>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20140416123917.GE7198@merlinux.eu>
Message-ID: <lim215$mmi$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hey Holger,

Thanks for your answer, it certainly helped clear up things for me about 
what was going on with talk selection - that as much as 50 slots were 
remaining was not clear, for instance. I also agree that the double 
blind selection process does not fit the goals of EuroPython so much -- 
I already gave feedback on that elsewhere in this thread.

I complained earlier that publishing this half-baked schedule was rather 
frustrating for those of us who submitted talks but whose talks were not 
selected. We're in some kind of limbo where we don't know whether the 
talk is rejected or accepted, which feels rather odd.

On the other hand, if the half baked schedule triggered a rebalancing 
for diversity that otherwise might not have happened I'd call it a good 
thing after all.

Regards,

Martijn



From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 15:59:08 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:59:08 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
 <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>

W dniu 16.04.2014 15:34, Aist? Kesminait?-Jankauskien? pisze:
> As far as I remember (and it's been a while) there was a lack of
> proposals in general at least in the beginning.

Then read this mail:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2013-January/008195.html

Learn a bit how process was delayed and then how unexpectedly 
requirements were announced. I'm tired to talk again, that there were 
serious issues in process of choosing 2014/2015 organizers.

Regards,
Filip

From aiste.kesminaite at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 16:16:38 2014
From: aiste.kesminaite at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?QWlzdMSXIEtlc21pbmFpdMSXLUphbmthdXNraWVuxJc=?=)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 17:16:38 +0300
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
 <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiyexJHEGjZ_meWSt6Mz6+ARHhJ_-NCAYLVpcbtmwuFT4L5bw@mail.gmail.com>

Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and
pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining.
What is your point with all this, please tell.
On 16 Apr 2014 16:59, "Filip K??bczyk" <fklebczyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> W dniu 16.04.2014 15:34, Aist? Kesminait?-Jankauskien? pisze:
>
>> As far as I remember (and it's been a while) there was a lack of
>> proposals in general at least in the beginning.
>>
>
> Then read this mail:
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2013-January/008195.html
>
> Learn a bit how process was delayed and then how unexpectedly requirements
> were announced. I'm tired to talk again, that there were serious issues in
> process of choosing 2014/2015 organizers.
>
> Regards,
> Filip
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
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From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 16:24:30 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:24:30 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <CAPiyexJHEGjZ_meWSt6Mz6+ARHhJ_-NCAYLVpcbtmwuFT4L5bw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>	<lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>	<CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>	<534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>
 <CAPiyexJHEGjZ_meWSt6Mz6+ARHhJ_-NCAYLVpcbtmwuFT4L5bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <534E929E.1020907@gmail.com>

W dniu 16.04.2014 16:16, Aist? Kesminait?-Jankauskien? pisze:
> Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and
> pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining.
> What is your point with all this, please tell.

The topic was about future EuroPythons and that maybe more should be 
done in Eastern Europe.

You stated:
"So whoever was serious about organising EP could do it. "
I just disagree with that statement, by looking on my own negative 
experiences and EPS knows why I have right to have negative experiences. 
The question is do we want to dwell again into that or talk about future 
EuroPythons as intended in the first mail? I prefer the latter.

Regards,
Filip


From thoward37 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 19:22:47 2014
From: thoward37 at gmail.com (Troy Howard)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 10:22:47 -0700
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534E929E.1020907@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
 <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>
 <CAPiyexJHEGjZ_meWSt6Mz6+ARHhJ_-NCAYLVpcbtmwuFT4L5bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <534E929E.1020907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+p8kVqSy1jMimOEWZV=nRejvUM2i6Hav3DY0qBfUJfQ-jMj7g@mail.gmail.com>

I recently organized a conference in Budapest (Write The Docs EU). I can
confirm that it's a great city to hold a conference in. Cheap lodging/food,
lots of fun local culture outside of the conference, and easy to get to
from all over Europe. Also, I felt safe and welcomed there as a native
English speaker.

Most importantly, there is a Budapest-based company, Prezi, who has an
amazing events staff that help us organize our conference, has organized a
number of smaller conference in their own venue (~100-150 people), and is
also organizing a much larger conference (Craft Conf) in a much larger
venue (~500-1000 people, IIRC). They could definitely help EuroPython
succeed there.

I'd be glad to put the EuroPython organizing team in touch with the Prezi
event staff to discuss the possibility of hosting EuroPython 2015 in
Budapest.

Thanks,
Troy



On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> W dniu 16.04.2014 16:16, Aist? Kesminait?-Jankauskien? pisze:
>
>  Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and
>> pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining.
>> What is your point with all this, please tell.
>>
>
> The topic was about future EuroPythons and that maybe more should be done
> in Eastern Europe.
>
> You stated:
>
> "So whoever was serious about organising EP could do it. "
> I just disagree with that statement, by looking on my own negative
> experiences and EPS knows why I have right to have negative experiences.
> The question is do we want to dwell again into that or talk about future
> EuroPythons as intended in the first mail? I prefer the latter.
>
>
> Regards,
> Filip
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>
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From ep at zopyx.com  Wed Apr 16 21:39:24 2014
From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:39:24 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534E8B31.7080902@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com> <534E8B31.7080902@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23EF841D-1296-41F7-8648-D0AF8625F1F9@zopyx.com>


Am 16.04.2014 um 09:52 schrieb Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com>:

> W dniu 16.04.2014 14:43, Andreas Jung pisze:
>> The selection process has been always open afaik.
> 
> Then where are all the proposals shown that were sent for 2014 and 2015 hosting? Where are the criteria that decided German proposal was better than the one from Belgium. In my opinion process is not open and transparent.

Ask EPS.

> 
>> You need enough people
>> doing the work, you need to write a proposal and submit it if there is an
>> EPS call for the next conference. As far as I recall for there was a proposal
>> by the polish Python community for the 2014/15 conference.
> 
> There wasn't for a good reason. I recommend you to talk to Marc-Andre Lemburg, maybe he can explain you how the situation looked like. Also I recommend you reading the mails on this mailing list since June 2012.

Please what?

> 
>> There had been
>> conferences e.g. like the Plone conference (Python-based CMS) many years
>> ago in Budapest, several people already added the RuPy in Poland over
>> the last years? I think there is nobody say ?we don?t want conferences in
>> Eastern Europe??.it is a question of consensus among the local python user groups
>> in each country in order to do such an effort. For the sake on completeness: the
>> 2014 Python conference in Ukraine had to be cancelled for well-known  reasons.
> 
> Andreas, I think we are talking about Europython here, not about being happy that other conferences take place in Eastern Europe.

No idea what your point is.
I suggest you speak to EPS directly. 

Andreas

From gadgetsteve at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 17 07:18:29 2014
From: gadgetsteve at hotmail.com (Steve Barnes)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 06:18:29 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <CA+p8kVqSy1jMimOEWZV=nRejvUM2i6Hav3DY0qBfUJfQ-jMj7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
 <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>
 <CAPiyexJHEGjZ_meWSt6Mz6+ARHhJ_-NCAYLVpcbtmwuFT4L5bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <534E929E.1020907@gmail.com>
 <CA+p8kVqSy1jMimOEWZV=nRejvUM2i6Hav3DY0qBfUJfQ-jMj7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP8368CBD6269ED6CCD0F7C2AA520@phx.gbl>

On 16/04/14 18:22, Troy Howard wrote:
> I recently organized a conference in Budapest (Write The Docs EU). I 
> can confirm that it's a great city to hold a conference in. Cheap 
> lodging/food, lots of fun local culture outside of the conference, and 
> easy to get to from all over Europe. Also, I felt safe and welcomed 
> there as a native English speaker.
>
> Most importantly, there is a Budapest-based company, Prezi, who has an 
> amazing events staff that help us organize our conference, has 
> organized a number of smaller conference in their own venue (~100-150 
> people), and is also organizing a much larger conference (Craft Conf) 
> in a much larger venue (~500-1000 people, IIRC). They could definitely 
> help EuroPython succeed there.
>
> I'd be glad to put the EuroPython organizing team in touch with the 
> Prezi event staff to discuss the possibility of hosting EuroPython 
> 2015 in Budapest.
>
> Thanks,
> Troy
>
>
Troy,

While Budapest would be an amazing location for EuroPython you have the 
process backwards - The local python community in the host city becomes 
the EuroPython organising team if the produce the accepted proposal - 
there is no central team that takes EuroPython on tour.

Gadget/Steve


From bolibic at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 09:45:59 2014
From: bolibic at gmail.com (Javier Gonel)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 10:45:59 +0300
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534E929E.1020907@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
 <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>
 <CAPiyexJHEGjZ_meWSt6Mz6+ARHhJ_-NCAYLVpcbtmwuFT4L5bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <534E929E.1020907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAdeYiAbWZ_5WZaruBZ-oS-a=ORieNheiG7eqo6wEeuEGMVhgg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> W dniu 16.04.2014 16:16, Aist? Kesminait?-Jankauskien? pisze:
>
>  Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and
>> pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining.
>> What is your point with all this, please tell.
>>
>
> The topic was about future EuroPythons and that maybe more should be done
> in Eastern Europe.
>

The "should" in that sentence feels like forcing diversity IMHO.


>
> You stated:
>
> "So whoever was serious about organising EP could do it. "
> I just disagree with that statement, by looking on my own negative
> experiences and EPS knows why I have right to have negative experiences.
> The question is do we want to dwell again into that or talk about future
> EuroPythons as intended in the first mail? I prefer the latter.
>
>
> Regards,
> Filip
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>



-- 
Javier Gonel
Senior Software Engineer
http://javier.gr/
PGP: 0x53D69D57
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From Carina.Haupt at dlr.de  Thu Apr 17 10:24:16 2014
From: Carina.Haupt at dlr.de (Carina.Haupt at dlr.de)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 08:24:16 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>

Hi,

I think, and here read, that there are a lot of different opinions to the perfect conference length and structure and I can follow all your arguments. I do not want to state my opinion here too, but point out that a streaming and recoding of nearly all talks is planned. This allows everybody who feels overwhelmed from the offers of EuroPython 2014 to concentrate on the more interactive parts.

This definitely it not a perfect compensation for attending a talk live, but it might help some of you to consider this. I personally use this a lot on conferences which offer streaming and/or recordings. Okay, I now I gave my two cents. But this shall be enough. :)

Best regards
Carina

> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: EuroPython [mailto:europython-
> bounces+carina.haupt=dlr.de at python.org] Im Auftrag von Martijn Faassen
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. April 2014 23:29
> An: europython at python.org
> Betreff: Re: [EuroPython] conference length
> 
> Hey,
> 
> On 04/15/2014 10:33 PM, Horst Gutmann wrote:
>  > Every conference I've attended so far had at least on or two time  > slots
> each day where none of the talks appealed to me and so I went  > to explore
> the city or just got some sleep at the hotel. This way the  > event stayed
> fresh and exciting to me and I didn't feel bad for  > skipping some talks if I
> simply didn't feel like it. That naturally  > only works to a certain extend and
> eventually I just want to get out  > of the conference again.
> 
> I guess that's one way to deal with it (especially in Florence!). But I wonder
> whether that's a way to cope with a problem: should there be time slots at a
> conference with 3 or 4 or more parallel tracks where none of the talks appeal
> to an attendee? Of course you can't please everyone, but if it happens to a
> lot of people you might have a problem.
> 
> When I'm at a conference I tend to want to focus on it. At the third day of a
> three day conference I typically notice I am getting tired. I'm glad that
> lightning talks tend to be slotted in then at EuroPython, because that's
> always a nice variety of things.
> 
> Then there's the potential issue of people who simply don't have time (or
> resources) to go to a conference of that length. They can of course attend it
> for a couple of days, but people may instead elect to go to a shorter
> conference instead where they can have the full experience. It's hard to get
> a feel for that though; EuroPython certainly has been growing in attendance,
> so that's an argument against that.
> 
> [snip]
>  > 5 days is a really long
>  > time, so perhaps the orgas and the EPS would be willing to experiment  >
> here with the format a little bit I the future? :-)
> 
> It seems to have been a slow change.
> 
>  From the beginning in 2002, it had been a 3 day conference; in Charleroi, in
> Gothenburg, in 2006 at CERN and in 2007 and 2008 in Vilnius there was a 3 day
> conference too.
> 
> In 2009 in Birmingham there were 3 main conference days, plus 3 tutorial
> days before it. This might be the introduction of the tutorial days; it's possible
> there were tutorial days at some previous EuroPython, but certainly not all
> the time -- I find it hard to google up the schedules now.
> 
> I misremember EuroPython 2010 in Birmingham (the last time I attended); I
> thought it was like 2009, but best I can find now it had 4 days of main
> conference, plus two days of tutorials in the weekend before it.
> But I cannot Google up the time table so I'm not 100% sure.
> 
> I can find an announcement from 2010/11/18 for the conference in 2011
> where the tentative schedule was 2 tutorial days with 4 conference days, the
> same as in 2010 in Birmingham. Then the dates were shifted
> (2011/02/17) to have everything from monday to friday (5 days, talk days in
> parallel with tutorial).
> 
> Since I last attended in 2010 and actually forgot it was 4 days in Birmingham
> and was used to 3 day conferences before it, the 5 day massive schedule
> looked rather sudden, but it was not.
> 
> Each new format was a reasonable small change from the format of the year
> before. Each change had a motivation, but I wonder whether the final effect
> was entirely intentional.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martijn
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

From Carina.Haupt at dlr.de  Thu Apr 17 10:55:21 2014
From: Carina.Haupt at dlr.de (Carina.Haupt at dlr.de)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 08:55:21 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18EB@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>

Hi,

even if I respond to an older mail, I wanted to address some questions here.

> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: EuroPython [mailto:europython-
> bounces+carina.haupt=dlr.de at python.org] Im Auftrag von Filip Klebczyk
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. April 2014 11:56
> An: europython lists
> Betreff: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have two points:
> 1. I'm curious what are stats regarding nationality/country of attendees.

This information were not collected in the CfP I think. Also not the gender.

> 2. I've noticed that together with this year edition there are 13 EuroPythons,
> where:
> * 2 of them were located in former Eastern Bloc countries
> * 11 of them were located in Western Countries
> 
> Having in mind that there is gap disproportion between wealth level of
> Western and Eastern Europe I'm curious if EPS or anybody feeling
> responsible for EuroPython thinks about addressing that problem in future?
> 
> In my opinion the conference that calls itself EuroPython (and for example
> not WestEuroPython) should take that into account.

This is taken into account by the financial assistance program. Next to supporting especially, women, students, speakers and contributors of the Python community, we also take into account the origin country, even if this is not as explicitly stated as the other attributes. 
Thereby we actively consider that EuroPythons main target audience should be European citizens, not just West-European citizens, especially since the alternatives there are less (just as you stated). We do this exactly due to the reason that we want diversity in the conference.

I hope I therewith could clarify that we already address the problem and do not start a big discussion about financial aid. ;)

Best regards
Carina

> Regards,
> Filip
> 
> PS. HINT: organizing conference in less wealthy countries usually (but not
> always) also results in lower conference costs, in result making it more
> accessible to those with "small pockets".
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 10:59:41 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 10:59:41 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <CAAdeYiAbWZ_5WZaruBZ-oS-a=ORieNheiG7eqo6wEeuEGMVhgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
 <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>
 <CAPiyexJHEGjZ_meWSt6Mz6+ARHhJ_-NCAYLVpcbtmwuFT4L5bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <534E929E.1020907@gmail.com>
 <CAAdeYiAbWZ_5WZaruBZ-oS-a=ORieNheiG7eqo6wEeuEGMVhgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <534F97FD.8020809@gmail.com>

W dniu 17.04.2014 09:45, Javier Gonel pisze:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com
> <mailto:fklebczyk at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     W dniu 16.04.2014 16:16, Aist? Kesminait?-Jankauskien? pisze:
>
>         Filip, what are you trying to achieve? I see a lot of negativity and
>         pointing fingers. My email clearly said - in the begining.
>         What is your point with all this, please tell.
>
>
>     The topic was about future EuroPythons and that maybe more should be
>     done in Eastern Europe.
>
>
> The "should" in that sentence feels like forcing diversity IMHO.

Seems you overlooked word "maybe" in the sentence. Here you go:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/maybe

As you see word is connected with possibility/uncertainty; neither yes 
nor no. How that relates to forcing sth?

Regards,
Filip

From kontakt at veit-schiele.de  Thu Apr 17 11:24:16 2014
From: kontakt at veit-schiele.de (Veit Schiele)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 11:24:16 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
In-Reply-To: <201404160016.s3G0GwNa026564@fido.openend.se>
References: <201404160016.s3G0GwNa026564@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <534F9DC0.8040605@veit-schiele.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Laura,

the administrators of the list do not have access to the file system.
Therefore, we are not able to change the encoding of the list. After
all, we have removed the m-dashes from the footer.

Kind regards, Veit

Am 16.04.14 02:16, schrieb Laura Creighton:
> The EP mailing list is configured so that it has:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> while the footer has:
> EuroPython 2014 \x96 Berlin, 21th\x9627th July
> 
> Notice the two \x96 characters.  The intent is almost certainly to have those
> interpreted in the windows-1252 charset, where they mean an en-dash.
> 
> But in us-ascii, this is an illegal character.  And my mailer complains 
> bitterly about the problem.
> 
> So it looks like we need to fix 2 things.  The first is to change the charset
> from "us-ascii" to something more reasonable, especially since most European 
> languages do not fit into ascii -- utf-8 perhaps?
> 
> And the second thing is to change the footer text to have whatever is an
> en-dash in whatever charset we decide to use.
> 
> Are there any reasons not to move to utf-8 ?
> 
> Laura
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


- -- 
Veit Schiele

EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin
21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center
Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing
ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython
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From lac at openend.se  Thu Apr 17 11:51:20 2014
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 11:51:20 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
In-Reply-To: Message from Veit Schiele <kontakt@veit-schiele.de>
 of "Thu, 17 Apr 2014 11:24:16 +0200." <534F9DC0.8040605@veit-schiele.de>
References: <201404160016.s3G0GwNa026564@fido.openend.se><534F9DC0.8040605@veit-schiele.de>
Message-ID: <201404170951.s3H9pK4d026954@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Thu, 17 Apr 2014 11:24:16 +0200, Veit Schiele writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Hi Laura,
>
>the administrators of the list do not have access to the file system.
>Therefore, we are not able to change the encoding of the list. After
>all, we have removed the m-dashes from the footer.
>
>Kind regards, Veit
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

I didn't realise that making changes to the charset encoding wasn't something
that you did from inside mailman.  Sorry about that.  I will see about 
getting the encoding fixed on python.org then, if that is where the fix
needs to be applied.

Thanks very much,
Laura Creighton


From mal at europython.eu  Thu Apr 17 12:32:34 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 12:32:34 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
In-Reply-To: <201404170951.s3H9pK4d026954@fido.openend.se>
References: <201404160016.s3G0GwNa026564@fido.openend.se><534F9DC0.8040605@veit-schiele.de>
 <201404170951.s3H9pK4d026954@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <534FADC2.7010308@europython.eu>

On 17.04.2014 11:51, Laura Creighton wrote:
> I didn't realise that making changes to the charset encoding wasn't something
> that you did from inside mailman.  Sorry about that.  I will see about 
> getting the encoding fixed on python.org then, if that is where the fix
> needs to be applied.

The footers have to use the encoding of the ML preferred language charset.
Since the europython ML is set to US English as preferred language,
the charset is ASCII. That's how Mailman works; it's not something that
could be changed on the server side - except for patching Mailman
itself, of course.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 13:16:36 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:16:36 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <23EF841D-1296-41F7-8648-D0AF8625F1F9@zopyx.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com> <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com> <534E8B31.7080902@gmail.com>
 <23EF841D-1296-41F7-8648-D0AF8625F1F9@zopyx.com>
Message-ID: <534FB814.4060001@gmail.com>

W dniu 16.04.2014 21:39, Andreas Jung pisze:
>
> Am 16.04.2014 um 09:52 schrieb Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com>:
>
>> W dniu 16.04.2014 14:43, Andreas Jung pisze:
>>> The selection process has been always open afaik.
>>
>> Then where are all the proposals shown that were sent for 2014 and 2015 hosting? Where are the criteria that decided German proposal was better than the one from Belgium. In my opinion process is not open and transparent.
>
> Ask EPS.
>

I've checked EPS website and it seems some issues with openess are now 
fixed. It's interesting however that on EP2013 Marc-Andre Lemburg spoke 
to me about German and Belgium proposals and on the website it is stated 
that there was only German proposal - very, very strange I would say...

>> There wasn't for a good reason. I recommend you to talk to Marc-Andre Lemburg, maybe he can explain you how the situation looked like. Also I recommend you reading the mails on this mailing list since June 2012.
>
> Please what?

I reported the problem to EPS in previous year and also to PSF. I find 
satisfying the fact that EPS finally tries to improve things and I look 
forward to it. However, there weren't any apologies for the last year 
unfair situation nor for the offensive talk of one of EPS high 
representatives.

I think if someone from EPS has said:

"Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway"

then it really is as offending as if someone would say

"Women wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway"

Only difference is type of discrimination (ethnic/gender).

Regards,
Filip

From mal at europython.eu  Thu Apr 17 13:24:17 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:24:17 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP8368CBD6269ED6CCD0F7C2AA520@phx.gbl>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
 <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>	<CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>	<534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>	<CAPiyexJHEGjZ_meWSt6Mz6+ARHhJ_-NCAYLVpcbtmwuFT4L5bw@mail.gmail.com>	<534E929E.1020907@gmail.com>	<CA+p8kVqSy1jMimOEWZV=nRejvUM2i6Hav3DY0qBfUJfQ-jMj7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU0-SMTP8368CBD6269ED6CCD0F7C2AA520@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <534FB9E1.2030406@europython.eu>

On 17.04.2014 07:18, Steve Barnes wrote:
> On 16/04/14 18:22, Troy Howard wrote:
>> I recently organized a conference in Budapest (Write The Docs EU). I can confirm that it's a great
>> city to hold a conference in. Cheap lodging/food, lots of fun local culture outside of the
>> conference, and easy to get to from all over Europe. Also, I felt safe and welcomed there as a
>> native English speaker.
>>
>> Most importantly, there is a Budapest-based company, Prezi, who has an amazing events staff that
>> help us organize our conference, has organized a number of smaller conference in their own venue
>> (~100-150 people), and is also organizing a much larger conference (Craft Conf) in a much larger
>> venue (~500-1000 people, IIRC). They could definitely help EuroPython succeed there.
>>
>> I'd be glad to put the EuroPython organizing team in touch with the Prezi event staff to discuss
>> the possibility of hosting EuroPython 2015 in Budapest.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Troy
>>
>>
> Troy,
> 
> While Budapest would be an amazing location for EuroPython you have the process backwards - The
> local python community in the host city becomes the EuroPython organising team if the produce the
> accepted proposal - there is no central team that takes EuroPython on tour.

This will change to 2015. The EPS is working on a model that'll make
it much easier for local teams to make a proposal:

http://www.europython-society.org/cfp

In short, we'll have the EPS run the conference, with international
work groups doing the work that can be done remotely and the local team
providing on-site support. This will resolve the problem of losing
institutional knowledge every time we change location and greatly
reduce the risk a local organizer has to take.

We will follow up with more details in the coming days with new
blog posts:

http://www.europython-society.org/

If a local team is interested in hosting EPC 2015, they should sign
up to the blog. We will also post the final CFP on the usual mailing
lists, of course, and try to actively reach out to national Python
organizations, as well as volunteers for the work groups.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 13:39:41 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:39:41 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18EB@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18EB@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
Message-ID: <534FBD7D.9080406@gmail.com>

W dniu 17.04.2014 10:55, Carina.Haupt at dlr.de pisze:
> I hope I therewith could clarify that we already address the problem and do not start a big discussion about financial aid. ;)

I think we all can agree that financial aid is a positive tool to make 
more diverse conference in terms of wealth status of attendees. But in 
my opinion it's not the most effective solution. It's a bit similar like 
with problem Lynn Root pointed.

If there would be a lot of women submitting and passing this years 
reviews, there wouldn't be discussion about lack of gender diversity 
among speakers. The source of the problem is described in the NY Times 
article to which Lynn pointed. So to counter that problem several 
solutions were discussed (more active reaching PyLadies groups, 
convincing speakers that have multiply talks to limit the number to one 
in result freeing slots to fill agenda with more diverse speakers).

I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse 
in terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think 
the better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I 
think the biggest ones are catering and venue rent cost). That would result:
1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets
2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless 
of wealth status
3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person
4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could 
receive financial aid or improving other areas of conference

It's really simple logic.

Regards,
Filip



From mal at europython.eu  Thu Apr 17 13:41:05 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:41:05 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534FB814.4060001@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
 <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>	<534E8B31.7080902@gmail.com>	<23EF841D-1296-41F7-8648-D0AF8625F1F9@zopyx.com>
 <534FB814.4060001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <534FBDD1.3030602@europython.eu>

Filip,

all this is documented on the CFP pages for the years 2011, 2013 and
2014:

http://www.europython-society.org/cfp

Also: Please stop bringing up or implying false accusations. You are
doing yourself and everyone on this mailing list a disservice.

FWIW: As I've written in a separate email on this thread, the EPS is
aiming to make it easier for local teams to make a proposal to have
EuroPython in their location.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From ep at zopyx.com  Thu Apr 17 13:45:42 2014
From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 07:45:42 -0400
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534FBD7D.9080406@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18EB@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <534FBD7D.9080406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A9E6AA13-7F77-4ED1-8D3E-98F95902D8D2@zopyx.com>


Am 17.04.2014 um 07:39 schrieb Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com>:

> 
> 
> I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse in terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think the better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I think the biggest ones are catering and venue rent cost). That would result:
> 1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets
> 2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless of wealth status
> 3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person
> 4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could receive financial aid or improving other areas of conference
> 

We discussed that already - why bring it up again?

Ansdreas


From mal at europython.eu  Thu Apr 17 13:59:06 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:59:06 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
 <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
 <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <534FC20A.8060008@europython.eu>

On 16.04.2014 15:34, Aist? Kesminait?-Jankauskien? wrote:
> As far as I remember (and it's been a while) there was a lack of proposals
> in general at least in the beginning.  So whoever was serious about
> organising EP could do it.
> Has this changed over the past years and is there any reason to believe
> that proposals are being approved or rejected according to geografy? (I
> wouldn't think so, but that's just me.)

Most certainly not.

We would very much like the conference to move around in Europe as much
as possible.

Unfortunately, we did not have much choice in recent selections, with
only a single submitted proposal.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From marius at gedmin.as  Thu Apr 17 14:02:25 2014
From: marius at gedmin.as (Marius Gedminas)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:02:25 +0300
Subject: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
In-Reply-To: <534FADC2.7010308@europython.eu>
References: <201404160016.s3G0GwNa026564@fido.openend.se>
 <534F9DC0.8040605@veit-schiele.de>
 <201404170951.s3H9pK4d026954@fido.openend.se>
 <534FADC2.7010308@europython.eu>
Message-ID: <20140417120225.GA23097@platonas>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 12:32:34PM +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> On 17.04.2014 11:51, Laura Creighton wrote:
> > I didn't realise that making changes to the charset encoding wasn't something
> > that you did from inside mailman.  Sorry about that.  I will see about 
> > getting the encoding fixed on python.org then, if that is where the fix
> > needs to be applied.
> 
> The footers have to use the encoding of the ML preferred language charset.
> Since the europython ML is set to US English as preferred language,
> the charset is ASCII.

Where's that language -> charset mapping defined?

> That's how Mailman works; it's not something that could be changed on
> the server side - except for patching Mailman itself, of course.

Are those mappings hardcoded in Mailman?

Marius Gedminas
-- 
You have moved the mouse. NT must be restarted for the changes to take effect.
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From funthyme at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 14:04:48 2014
From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:04:48 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534FBD7D.9080406@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18EB@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <534FBD7D.9080406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB-vKOSWwRNLjqd_i1nrAnapr+22eKM5aZ4KTTPUp6x45Kg3cA@mail.gmail.com>

Filip,

On 17 April 2014 12:39, Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com> wrote:
> W dniu 17.04.2014 10:55, Carina.Haupt at dlr.de pisze:
>
<snips>

> I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse in
> terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think the
> better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I think the
> biggest ones are catering and venue rent cost). That would result:
> 1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets
> 2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless of
> wealth status
> 3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person
> 4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could receive
> financial aid or improving other areas of conference
>
> It's really simple logic.

For once, Filip, I agree with you! Huzzah!

All the best,

John
--

From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 14:29:23 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:29:23 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534FBDD1.3030602@europython.eu>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
 <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>	<534E8B31.7080902@gmail.com>	<23EF841D-1296-41F7-8648-D0AF8625F1F9@zopyx.com>
 <534FB814.4060001@gmail.com> <534FBDD1.3030602@europython.eu>
Message-ID: <534FC923.1040105@gmail.com>

W dniu 17.04.2014 13:41, M.-A. Lemburg pisze:
> Filip,
>
> all this is documented on the CFP pages for the years 2011, 2013 and
> 2014:
>
> http://www.europython-society.org/cfp

Yes, I've wrote in one of previous mails that this is now public, where 
was it year ago in July?

> Also: Please stop bringing up or implying false accusations. You are
> doing yourself and everyone on this mailing list a disservice.

What false accusations? That you said:
"Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway"

These are your words. Have you already forgotten how and what where you 
shouting it in the hotel lobby? Or you don't want to remember.

>
> FWIW: As I've written in a separate email on this thread, the EPS is
> aiming to make it easier for local teams to make a proposal to have
> EuroPython in their location.

As I've already wrote I appreciate EPS is finally changing. It's a pity 
it wasn't that way year ago.

Regards,
Filip

From faassen at startifact.com  Thu Apr 17 14:29:27 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:29:27 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
Message-ID: <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hey Carina,

On 04/17/2014 10:24 AM, Carina.Haupt at dlr.de wrote:

> This definitely it not a perfect compensation for attending a talk
> live, but it might help some of you to consider this. I personally
> use this a lot on conferences which offer streaming and/or
> recordings. Okay, I now I gave my two cents. But this shall be
> enough. :)

That's a good point, of course, thank you.

I think it would be good to take stock at some point though, and see 
whether in 2015 and beyond we may want to go back to the previous 
duration of the conference or make other adjustments.

As Andreas suggested, we could to some type of survey, though I wouldn't 
do it *just* at the conference itself, as you'd only catch those willing 
to show up for 5 days there. :)

Regards,

Martijn


From lac at openend.se  Thu Apr 17 14:32:54 2014
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:32:54 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Incorrect charset for the Europython mailing list
In-Reply-To: Message from Marius Gedminas <marius@gedmin.as>
 of "Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:02:25 +0300." <20140417120225.GA23097@platonas>
References: <201404160016.s3G0GwNa026564@fido.openend.se>
 <534F9DC0.8040605@veit-schiele.de>
 <201404170951.s3H9pK4d026954@fido.openend.se>
 <534FADC2.7010308@europython.eu><20140417120225.GA23097@platonas>
Message-ID: <201404171232.s3HCWs1C029673@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:02:25 +0300, Marius Gedminas writes:
>On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 12:32:34PM +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> On 17.04.2014 11:51, Laura Creighton wrote:
>> > I didn't realise that making changes to the charset encoding wasn't something
>> > that you did from inside mailman.  Sorry about that.  I will see about 
>> > getting the encoding fixed on python.org then, if that is where the fix
>> > needs to be applied.
>> 
>> The footers have to use the encoding of the ML preferred language charset.
>> Since the europython ML is set to US English as preferred language,
>> the charset is ASCII.
>
>Where's that language -> charset mapping defined?
>
>> That's how Mailman works; it's not something that could be changed on
>> the server side - except for patching Mailman itself, of course.
>
>Are those mappings hardcoded in Mailman?
>
>Marius Gedminas

hardcoded in /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py , as far as I can tell, one charset for
each language choice.  

I've asked about this on the mailman_users mailing list (before mal
replied).  It seems an odd design choice, to me, so I wondered if I
had missed a way to override this choice, or if there was some compelling
reason why it _absolutely has to be done in a config file_ that I 
don't understand.  I will write back if I attain illumination.

Laura

From faassen at startifact.com  Thu Apr 17 14:36:32 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:36:32 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534FB9E1.2030406@europython.eu>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
 <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>	<CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>	<534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>	<CAPiyexJHEGjZ_meWSt6Mz6+ARHhJ_-NCAYLVpcbtmwuFT4L5bw@mail.gmail.com>	<534E929E.1020907@gmail.com>	<CA+p8kVqSy1jMimOEWZV=nRejvUM2i6Hav3DY0qBfUJfQ-jMj7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU0-SMTP8368CBD6269ED6CCD0F7C2AA520@phx.gbl>
 <534FB9E1.2030406@europython.eu>
Message-ID: <liohsg$4ok$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hey,

On 04/17/2014 01:24 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> In short, we'll have the EPS run the conference, with international
> work groups doing the work that can be done remotely and the local team
> providing on-site support. This will resolve the problem of losing
> institutional knowledge every time we change location and greatly
> reduce the risk a local organizer has to take.

Very nice!

An example of institutional knowledge getting somewhat lost is the 
duration of conference thing I recently talked about -- when I did the 
research on how the change happened, it's all a very logical step taken 
year on year based on the previous year's conference, and at least some 
people seemed not aware that it'd been 3 days for years before then.

Of course that's hardly a serious case, but I do think that 
institutional knowledge you have more overview and therefore better 
ability to step back and take stock once every while.

Regards,

Martijn



From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 14:45:42 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:45:42 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534FC20A.8060008@europython.eu>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>
 <lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>
 <CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <534FC20A.8060008@europython.eu>
Message-ID: <534FCCF6.50702@gmail.com>

W dniu 17.04.2014 13:59, M.-A. Lemburg pisze:
>
> Unfortunately, we did not have much choice in recent selections, with
> only a single submitted proposal.

It would be good to tell a bit more what caused that others didn't 
submit proposals.

Well if someone is interested how things looked here is e-mail I've sent 
to PSF on 1st of July 2013 explaining what actually happened and how 
things looked like.

tl;dr

Originally the Call for (organizers) proposals was supposed to be 
published in Autumn 2012 with deadline for proposals in Spring 2013.

It ended giving Call for (organizers) proposals in mid-May 2013 and 
deadline in mid-June 2013. Many other issues along the way.


> Dear Board of Python Software Foundation,
>
> I'm writing to you because I believe that these kind of things shouldn't pass silently and I also believe that this story should be a warning for others that every part of Python community should be respected and treated seriously - especially if we all want to keep status of that great community Jesse Noller was talking about on PyCon US. The mail is about how we tried to apply for organizing EuroPython and how we hit the wall several times during last two years.
>
> Below is an explanation of what actually happened:
>
> 1. January 2012 - Fabio Pliger informed on EP public mailing list that no one applied for organizing EuroPython 2013/2014 and he is looking forward for concrete and serious proposals [1]
>
> 2. Beginning of March 2012 - on our behalf ?ukasz Langa (which for long was and is still active in PyCon PL Program Committee) talked with Fabio Pliger on PyCon US '12 about possibility of still applying for EuroPython 2013/2014. Fabio asked to contact him and Laura Creighton about details. We've sent the e-mail on 11th of March.
>
> 3. April 2012 - after a month of waiting we've finally got the answer that it is too late to apply for EP2013/2014 and instead we should apply for EP2014/2015. Laura Creighton suggested for us to talk on EP2013 about applying for EP2014/EP2015
>
> 4. July 2012 - On EP I was informed by Fabio that there will be a call for organizers in Autumn for EP2014/EP2015, so then the details will be provided. Some of us arrived day before EP to help a bit Italian organizers.
> On EP there was EPS (EuroPython Society) meeting where new EPS board has been chosen. Results of the meeting can be read at [2], here is the especially important part:
>
> "The new board will put out a call for proposal for 2014, with a requirements specification during the fall of 2012. A deadline for bids will be in the early spring of 2013. Organisers of Europython 2014 will be expected to take part in the organisation of the 2013 conference, to learn more about how to arrange a conference on this scale."
>
> 5. Autumn 2012 - no CfP, no details
>
> 6. 6th January 2013 - I've asked Fabio when the CfP is released, because it is already January and it was supposed to be published in autumn previous year. I've got answer that in _a_few_days [3][4]
>
> 7. 8th February 2013 - I've asked again about CfP and no one even cared to answer briefly how the situation looks like [5]
>
> 8. 22th February 2013 - I've asked (this time privately only Fabio) about when I can expect call for EP2014/2015 and if there is a way I can help.
>
> 9. 5th March 2013 - I've received reply from Fabio that he can send me a raw material of EP proposal details and with my help this can be prepared earlier. I've agreed and asked to send me the raw document. The document wasn't send by Fabio. [6]
>
> 10. 6th March - 15th May - silence again
>
> 11. 15th May - CfP (CfO) was announced
>
> I'm sorry, but after so much time of waiting, me and the others had a right to not treat seriously EPS to release any CfP (CfO) in 2013 at all. For example I've made my own plans for May and 1st half of June (several trips including one longer to Finland which was planned in April (booked the tickets) and I was busy preparing the launch of two conferences websites). When the CfP came I was really angry, because I've realized I won't have time to apply for it and gather all the people again to send a serious proposal).
>
> Fabio contacted me in the June and I've informed him how the situation looks from our PoV and that we won't be able to submit a proposal in current situation. Fabio's reply wasn't good, because not only it was unpleasant (putting blame on us), but also contained untrue statement - that I did not want to help in March and that I've sent reply that I won't help, which was not truth [7]+[6]. Later Marc Andre-Lemburg informed that it must have been a miscommunication suggesting that Fabio didn't understand well what I've written [6]. We were asked to write how the CfP (CfO) rules can be changed in order for us to send the proposal. I expressed my view on that:
>
> "Current situation is really hard. It's after the deadline, we have currently busy period and I would have to gather people that previously wanted to organize EP once again (normal PyCon PL team is smaller as it is smaller conference - 200-300 attendees expected this year). So I don't think it is realistic to prepare such proposal sooner than around then end of July. I am also not sure if extending the period would be fair to other groups that applied. It is hard situation overall."
>
> and
>
>
> =================
>
> "Hi Marc,
>
> I am aware of that fact, because I cooperate with many people from abroad (yes also when organizing conferences). If someone states that I've denied to help on important matter when I clearly offered help and confirmed it, then I don't know what to think about it (answering "yes" to a question doesn't mean "no"). Just imagine for a minute that you are in my shoes and after months of waiting, you hear such things. I guess you would probably also feel annoyed, by the whole situation.
>
> I also see another problem here. Let's assume that the board will give us the extended period and we will submit a proposal. Imagine what can happen:
>
> 1. If our proposal would be accepted, then the other groups that have sent proposals have a right to feel that the EPS board favoured us and changed the rules to help us.
> 2. If our proposal wouldn't be accepted, then some of us might feel that extending the period was only a way to please us in this situation and to end our claims.
>
> The situation is really hard and if the period will be extended then maybe the decision about proposals should be left to some neutral entity such as PSF or people that aren't involved in what happened here. There is this old saying "Nemo iudex in causa sua" (from Latin - no one should be judge in his own cause)."
>
> =================
>
> I've received reply that board won't change the rules, because that would be unfair (so why did they asked us to propose rules changing at all?). Anyway we asked some very important questions, which the EPS board haven't answered at all, like for example:
>
> 1. Why 11th March 2012 was too late to apply for organizing EuroPython 2013 when 15th June 2013 wasn't too late for EuroPython 2014.
>
> 2. In January Fabio stated that CfP will be announced in a few days. What was EPS board doing all that time when few days turned into 4.5 months?
>
> ---
>
> I was involved in organizing different events since 2004 and I'm aware and understand that it is hard piece of work and requires a lot of effort. I know how sometimes it is hard to keep all the deadlines, but the thing that concerns me when looking at the whole case is how some part of community is not treated entirely seriously by EPS. In our opinion it shouldn't be that way.
>
> Best regards,
> Filip
>
>
> ---
>
> [1] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2012-January/008016.html
> [2] https://ep2013.europython.eu/blog/2012/07/08/change-board-europython-society
> [3] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2013-January/008195.html
> [4] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2013-January/008196.html
> [5] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2013-February/008214.html
> [6]
>
> =======
> Data: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 18:15:24 +0100
> Nadawca: Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com>
> Adresat: Fabio Pliger <fabio.pliger at s3srl.com>
>
> W dniu 05.03.2013 18:04, Fabio Pliger pisze:
>> Hi Filip,
>>
>> Yes. We had a meeting few weeks ago but seems that we are all too busy
>> to write up a document with all the decisions made and the related
>> issues. If you want to help I can send you the raw material and you
>> could try to put a document draft that we can use to speed up things and
>> relase it as soon as we can.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> Yes, please send me but that might be a problematic right now - some of
> us are going to PyCon US and I doubt that we will manage to do a lot
> work from there (especially that making phone calls to venues from there
> will be not much possible).
>
> Best regards,
> Filip
>
> PS. Btw. Please send e-mails to my gmail adress
> =======
>
> [7]
>
> W dniu 12.06.2013 12:11, Fabio Pliger pisze:
>> If you
>> remember well I've asked if you and your team wanted to help us
>> preparing the CFP but you said no.
>>


From mal at europython.eu  Thu Apr 17 15:23:17 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:23:17 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534FC923.1040105@gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>	<lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>	<534E8B31.7080902@gmail.com>	<23EF841D-1296-41F7-8648-D0AF8625F1F9@zopyx.com>	<534FB814.4060001@gmail.com>
 <534FBDD1.3030602@europython.eu> <534FC923.1040105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <534FD5C5.9070901@europython.eu>

On 17.04.2014 14:29, Filip K??bczyk wrote:
> W dniu 17.04.2014 13:41, M.-A. Lemburg pisze:
>> Filip,
>>
>> all this is documented on the CFP pages for the years 2011, 2013 and
>> 2014:
>>
>> http://www.europython-society.org/cfp
> 
> Yes, I've wrote in one of previous mails that this is now public, where was it year ago in July?

We had wanted to make the Berlin proposal public sooner than that,
but we had wanted to put up an updated proposal after the venue
changes compared to their original proposal. We never received
an updated proposal, so then eventually went live with the original
one.

>> Also: Please stop bringing up or implying false accusations. You are
>> doing yourself and everyone on this mailing list a disservice.
> 
> What false accusations? That you said:
> "Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway"
> 
> These are your words. Have you already forgotten how and what where you shouting it in the hotel
> lobby? Or you don't want to remember.

Yes, those false accusations. I have many Polish friends and don't
have any doubt that any one of them can organize a EuroPython
conference. In fact, Ewa, the PSF event organizer is from Poland
and she's managing PyCon US, a 2000+ attendee event.

I know you were complaining about the CFP for 2014 and was trying
to mediate a bit after you had approached both Fabio and Giovanni
in rather inappropriate ways. I apologized to you for the delays in
the CFP process, but in the end, the mediation effort didn't work out.

You had missed the CFP deadline for 2013 and complained. You then
missed the deadline again for 2014 and complained.

Instead of putting so much effort into complaining, why don't
you redirect your energy into putting together a preliminary
proposal for 2015 or a future year, so that you are prepared and
only need to tweak it a bit to meet the final CFP requirements ?

>> FWIW: As I've written in a separate email on this thread, the EPS is
>> aiming to make it easier for local teams to make a proposal to have
>> EuroPython in their location.
> 
> As I've already wrote I appreciate EPS is finally changing. It's a pity it wasn't that way year ago.

It's a learning process for all of us. We make mistakes and learn,
just like everyone else in the community.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From mal at europython.eu  Thu Apr 17 15:32:18 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:32:18 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <liohsg$4ok$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>	<lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>	<CAPiyexKyqHN_yxXaPr0veAWyGcWncX4-3KZMjD2S4szkP3ty2w@mail.gmail.com>	<534E8CAC.2050309@gmail.com>	<CAPiyexJHEGjZ_meWSt6Mz6+ARHhJ_-NCAYLVpcbtmwuFT4L5bw@mail.gmail.com>	<534E929E.1020907@gmail.com>	<CA+p8kVqSy1jMimOEWZV=nRejvUM2i6Hav3DY0qBfUJfQ-jMj7g@mail.gmail.com>	<BLU0-SMTP8368CBD6269ED6CCD0F7C2AA520@phx.gbl>	<534FB9E1.2030406@europython.eu>
 <liohsg$4ok$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <534FD7E2.7080809@europython.eu>

On 17.04.2014 14:36, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> On 04/17/2014 01:24 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> In short, we'll have the EPS run the conference, with international
>> work groups doing the work that can be done remotely and the local team
>> providing on-site support. This will resolve the problem of losing
>> institutional knowledge every time we change location and greatly
>> reduce the risk a local organizer has to take.
> 
> Very nice!
> 
> An example of institutional knowledge getting somewhat lost is the duration of conference thing I
> recently talked about -- when I did the research on how the change happened, it's all a very logical
> step taken year on year based on the previous year's conference, and at least some people seemed not
> aware that it'd been 3 days for years before then.

If you're looking for information on previous conferences, you
should check this page:

http://www.europython-society.org/europython

As others have already mentioned, the 5 day event is a result of
integrating the tutorials which were on separate days before 2011
into the conference. This resulted in much better tutorial attendance,
so the integrated approach was continued.

> Of course that's hardly a serious case, but I do think that institutional knowledge you have more
> overview and therefore better ability to step back and take stock once every while.

Sure, we could try having separate training days again, but then we
would also have fewer talks. Perhaps we could do a poll at
EuroPython 2014 in Berlin to see what the attendees think
about it.

Personally, I prefer to have fewer parallel tracks and a longer
conference - you get to see more interesting talks and there are
fewer overlaps.

Cheers,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de  Thu Apr 17 15:33:18 2014
From: gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:33:18 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534FD5C5.9070901@europython.eu>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>	<lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>	<534E8B31.7080902@gmail.com>	<23EF841D-1296-41F7-8648-D0AF8625F1F9@zopyx.com>	<534FB814.4060001@gmail.com>
 <534FBDD1.3030602@europython.eu> <534FC923.1040105@gmail.com>
 <534FD5C5.9070901@europython.eu>
Message-ID: <85405A0E-7889-4BBC-98E9-10935171022F@darwin.in-berlin.de>

Hi all,

I appreciate the recent vivid discussions on this list around important topics like diversity. Many interesting opinions have been given about how to improve the EuroPython conference experience to an even wider target group and make it more balanced along multiple vectors. Some seemed to have been formulated under a combination of stress and/or frustration. This might be expected in the context of a complex project like organizing a conference for 1200 people, where there are many people, opinions and interests involved, and often contradicting ones, but not always clearly communicated.

While all this can be certainly improved I would hope to see this happening in a way that doesn't inject previously accumulated frustration of various stakeholders into the currently ongoing project, namely making happen what is likely going to be the largest EuroPython conference organized so far ("large" as in historically-grown, not as in think-big). I'm afraid that we're moving into this direction which might reduce people's interest in attending this conference as well as the current organizers' motivation for doing what they do in their spare time.

So I dare remind us of the fact that we do have, in fact, two mailing lists, Europython and Europython-Improve with the following current descriptions taken from their Mailman listinfo pages below. I feel like we have stretched the term "diversity" enough to start reconsidering continuing this discussion on the Europython-Improve list, revitalizing it, much as it deserves.

Best,

Dinu


    About EuroPython	
    
    A mailing list for discussing and planning EuroPython, the European 
    Python community conference. EuroPython 2014 will be held in July 2014 
    in Berlin. See the EuroPython website for details: 
    http://www.europython.eu/
    
    To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the EuroPython 
    Archives.
    
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
    
    
    About Europython-improve	
    
    This is the place to work together on making EuroPython happen each year. 
    Expect around 15 emails each week, with some periods of not so much traffic, 
    and periods of lots of activity as particular things need organising.
    
    To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the Europython-
    improve Archives. (The current archive is only available to the list 
    members.)
    
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython-improve


From giovanni at pycon.it  Thu Apr 17 16:40:00 2014
From: giovanni at pycon.it (Giovanni Bajo)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 16:40:00 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>


Il giorno 17/apr/2014, alle ore 14:29, Martijn Faassen <faassen at startifact.com> ha scritto:

> Hey Carina,
> 
> On 04/17/2014 10:24 AM, Carina.Haupt at dlr.de wrote:
> 
>> This definitely it not a perfect compensation for attending a talk
>> live, but it might help some of you to consider this. I personally
>> use this a lot on conferences which offer streaming and/or
>> recordings. Okay, I now I gave my two cents. But this shall be
>> enough. :)
> 
> That's a good point, of course, thank you.
> 
> I think it would be good to take stock at some point though, and see whether in 2015 and beyond we may want to go back to the previous duration of the conference or make other adjustments.
> 
> As Andreas suggested, we could to some type of survey, though I wouldn't do it *just* at the conference itself, as you'd only catch those willing to show up for 5 days there. :)

On the other hand, asking to people that didn't attend one of the 5-days conferences is not very useful as well. I think the best target would be people that attended both formats.

Thanks for your feedback. I?ll get back to your first message:

> I was told by @europython on Twitter I wasn't required to show up for 5 days of talks. I can make my own, shorter conference. So do I cut off the beginning or the end? I'd prefer the sprints, so I guess I should show up in day 3? What if a talk I submitted gets scheduled to day 2, though? Or if I actually prefer seeing the talks on day 1 and 2? Now I have to make those difficult choices myself.

This quoted part gets to the point. If the conference was 3 days long, it might well be that that specific talk on day 2 wouldn?t make it to the schedule, because the schedule would contain *less* talks, so you wouldn?t get to see that talk anyway. 

Of course, a point could be made that you would get a better selection of talks in only 3 days, but, on the other hand, it would be more likely to have a schedule conflicts between such talks. It?s not an easy cut, and I?m sure we agree that there?s no solution that fits everybody.

At the end of the day, more talks for more days seems like a better overall solution, and people are welcome to consider it a 3-days conference if they feel so. Consider that the submissions far exceed even the current schedule, so it?s not like ?anything gets in?.

Notice also that we got lots of positive feedback for the 1-week formula; the hallway track is far better because you have more time to meet people, talk to them, remeet them a second time, schedule a meetup, go out for a dinner or a beer. In a 2-and-a-half conference, it?s much harder, especially at the size of EuroPython. 

I would also account for the fact that almost 900 people joined EuroPython in Florence last year, with more than a 2x boost in 3 years, and the general feedback has been overwhelming positive. Even sponsors found the 1-week format acceptable for the exhibition, though it is obviously not a standard. Once they join, they see that they get to talk to people during the 5 days, it?s not like they have lots of people in the first day and nobody in the following days; and even for sponsors, it?s OK if they join only 3 days if they feel so and they want to keep the budget tight.

As for the trainings: participation in trainings has very much exceeded any previous figures, when the trainings were in separate days. Separate days is a worst solution under any point of view: it requires a different conference pass and for different days, so people need to evaluate whether they want to join more days (= more hotel costs) with an additional cost for the pass, ?just? to join 3-4 trainings (maybe). Maybe you really only want a 4-hour dive into *1* specific topic, not 4 of them; would you pay the full training ticket for just 1 or 2 trainings you really care about? Figures say most people don?t. Even in PyCon USA, there is a very large difference between attendance to the conference and attendance to trainings, and that?s a shame. It?s also a big loss for conference organizers, because they have a severely under-used venue; venues are quite expensive and give the best value for the money when they?re almost full (let?s say, at least 80% full). If you use a venue at 30%, it?s a loss of money and you could as well use another venue in those days, and this makes organization more difficult. Making them parallel to the whole conference has been a serious won for everybody. 

So, while I?m personally always open to experimenting new formats and playing with new ideas, I would say that we have an overwhelming majority of positive feedbacks on the new structure, and it incidentally works much better cost-wise. 
-- 
Giovanni Bajo
Python Italia APS
EuroPython Society
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From fklebczyk at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 17:24:31 2014
From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 17:24:31 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <534FD5C5.9070901@europython.eu>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>	<lilsuo$r15$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7569DFB-587B-4183-9D45-6FC6490483DB@zopyx.com>	<534E8B31.7080902@gmail.com>	<23EF841D-1296-41F7-8648-D0AF8625F1F9@zopyx.com>	<534FB814.4060001@gmail.com>
 <534FBDD1.3030602@europython.eu> <534FC923.1040105@gmail.com>
 <534FD5C5.9070901@europython.eu>
Message-ID: <534FF22F.1080208@gmail.com>

W dniu 17.04.2014 15:23, M.-A. Lemburg pisze:
>
> We had wanted to make the Berlin proposal public sooner than that,
> but we had wanted to put up an updated proposal after the venue
> changes compared to their original proposal. We never received
> an updated proposal, so then eventually went live with the original
> one.

What about the proposal from Belgium you mentioned on EP in the lobby? 
So there was no proposal or what?

>>
>> What false accusations? That you said:
>> "Poles wouldn't be able to organize Europython anyway"
>>
>> These are your words. Have you already forgotten how and what where you shouting it in the hotel
>> lobby? Or you don't want to remember.
>
> Yes, those false accusations.

I never record talks with other people, but will have to use sound 
recording device next time talking with you or ask for some neutral 
witness, because otherwise you easily deny the facts.

> I have many Polish friends and don't
> have any doubt that any one of them can organize a EuroPython
> conference. In fact, Ewa, the PSF event organizer is from Poland
> and she's managing PyCon US, a 2000+ attendee event.

Good, that you changed your mind about Poles. I appreciate that.

> I know you were complaining about the CFP for 2014 and was trying
> to mediate a bit after you had approached both Fabio and Giovanni
> in rather inappropriate ways. I apologized to you for the delays in
> the CFP process, but in the end, the mediation effort didn't work out.

Well if you are calling mediation shouting and insulting in the lobby, 
then congratulations for your sense of humour!

> You had missed the CFP deadline for 2013 and complained.

I haven't complained about CFP 2013 - we were only asking about 
possibility to apply. So you are making false statements here.

> You then
> missed the deadline again for 2014 and complained.

Interestingly everyone missed deadline in 2014 and only Python Verband 
which you are active member and candidate for chair in last polls (not 
chosen) didn't miss anything. If everything was so perfect, why EPS 
considered moving deadline further, but then changed it's mind about the 
idea? It shows that something wasn't all right.

> Instead of putting so much effort into complaining, why don't
> you redirect your energy into putting together a preliminary
> proposal for 2015 or a future year, so that you are prepared and
> only need to tweak it a bit to meet the final CFP requirements ?

I'm currently putting my energy to make PyCon PL better than last one. I 
haven't considered applying for organizing EuroPython after such "good" 
experiences from 2012/2013 with EPS.

>> As I've already wrote I appreciate EPS is finally changing. It's a pity it wasn't that way year ago.
  > It's a learning process for all of us. We make mistakes and learn,
> just like everyone else in the community.

I have a feeling that this change was a result of controversial process 
for 2014 CFP. If I would sit quietly maybe EPS wouldn't feel a need for 
change.

Regards,
Filip

From roberto.polli at babel.it  Thu Apr 17 18:32:07 2014
From: roberto.polli at babel.it (Roberto Polli)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 18:32:07 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org> <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
Message-ID: <2214868.A7RlKrpPvL@rpolli>

There is people that organized his (family) holiday around EP. 

Moving across Europe for just 3 days in the middle of July will reduce the 
appeal of tech-tourism and make things like partner-program less effective.

My 2?.
Peace,
R. 
-- 
Roberto Polli
Community Manager
Babel - a business unit of Par-Tec S.p.A. - http://www.babel.it 
T: +39.06.9826.9651 M: +39.340.652.2736 F: +39.06.9826.9680
P.zza S.Benedetto da Norcia, 33 - 00040 Pomezia (Roma)

CONFIDENZIALE: Questo messaggio ed i suoi allegati sono di carattere 
confidenziale per i destinatari in indirizzo.
E' vietato l'inoltro non autorizzato a destinatari diversi da quelli indicati 
nel messaggio originale.
Se ricevuto per errore, l'uso del contenuto e' proibito; si prega di 
comunicarlo al mittente e cancellarlo immediatamente.

From mal at europython.eu  Thu Apr 17 22:45:28 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 22:45:28 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Diversity of attendees
In-Reply-To: <CAB-vKOSWwRNLjqd_i1nrAnapr+22eKM5aZ4KTTPUp6x45Kg3cA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <534E53C5.9050209@gmail.com>	<BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18EB@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>	<534FBD7D.9080406@gmail.com>
 <CAB-vKOSWwRNLjqd_i1nrAnapr+22eKM5aZ4KTTPUp6x45Kg3cA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53503D68.8070005@europython.eu>

On 17.04.2014 14:04, John Pinner wrote:
> Filip,
> 
> On 17 April 2014 12:39, Filip K??bczyk <fklebczyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>> W dniu 17.04.2014 10:55, Carina.Haupt at dlr.de pisze:
>>
> <snips>
> 
>> I see financial aid as a similar method (to make attendees more diverse in
>> terms of their wealth status or "geographical penalty"). But I think the
>> better solution is to just work on lowering costs of the event (I think the
>> biggest ones are catering and venue rent cost). That would result:
>> 1. Reducing per attendee cost -> allows lower price of tickets
>> 2. Lower price of tickets -> event more accessible to people regardless of
>> wealth status
>> 3. Lower price of tickets -> lower costs of financial aid per person
>> 4. lower costs of financial aid per person -> more people that could receive
>> financial aid or improving other areas of conference
>>
>> It's really simple logic.
> 
> For once, Filip, I agree with you! Huzzah!

The EPS board agrees on this as well.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From holger at merlinux.eu  Fri Apr 18 13:24:57 2014
From: holger at merlinux.eu (holger krekel)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:24:57 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] Talk review status and finalization plans (was: Lack
 of diversity within selected talks)
In-Reply-To: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20140418112457.GZ1151@merlinux.eu>

Hi Lynn and everybody interested in a better EP2014,

we recognize that you raised some serious and valid concerns and would
like to lay out to the best of our ability how we plan to address them.
Many of you also are eagerly awaiting the final programme for EuroPython,
and there has been some confusion about the current status. Please
let us clarify where we stand and how we proceed from the programme
comittee side.

We had an open review process for 300+ submitted proposals with about
250 people participating in reviews, and about 1500 reviews delivered.
The initial batch of around 70 accepted talks was selected by
determining all talks that got positive and no negative reviews.
We did not filter out "multiple talkers" because at the time we
didn't think it's a good criterion but we realize that many think
it's good to be more restrictive to allow for more individuals to give
talks.

We have now about 50 slots remaining that we can accept and something
like 230 talks to choose from.  Anna, Holger, Kristian and Sarah with
support from others of the programme committee agreed to walk through 
the pending list now and review the reviews and also chime in regarding 
increasing overall diversity.   We also will try to reduce the amount
of people giving multiple talks in our future acceptance decisions and 
ask talkers for already accepted talks to consider freeing up slots.

Apart from gender diversity of talkers we also try to be diverse on
topics, i.e. duplicate topics or too many topics from one sub community.
As you may imagine this is not a trivial task and we are doing our
best to take all considerations into account.

We also are reaching out to Berlin PyLadies and would be happy if
someone there or from another group could help with sorting through the
current reviews and participate in the final decision making process.

Given the desire from people wanting to know about acceptance of their
talks, also affecting their EP conference attendance and travel plans,
we do not feel we can re-open an already complex reviewing process
and accept new proposals.  We also think that because of the 50 slots 
we can still fill and the increased scrutiny now on diversity issues
we will end up with a very good programme that is at least much more
diverse than what the initial snapshot suggested.

We hope for your understanding and agreement for this course of action
which was positively discussed by many members of the conference 
organisation teams.  We are certainly aware that increased outreach and 
diversity activities remain an ongoing topic and a shared challenge.  Doing 
it again, we would definitely try to do a better and earlier job at involving
groups like PyLadies to help with spreading the word of submitting and
helping with proposals.

For the programme and orga teams of EP2014,
Holger and Veit



On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 02:28 -0700, Lynn Root wrote:
> To the EuroPython organizers, talk reviewers, and community at large,
> 
> For those of you who do not know me, I am a board member of the Python
> Software Foundation, the founder and leader of PyLadies San Francisco,
> and an engineer at Spotify.  I have been a speaker at the last two
> EuroPythons, with 3 talks last year, and a keynote the year before.
> 
> I see that the list of preliminarily talks are publicly available. Side
> stepping my issue with lack of communication to proposers of talks at
> large, I am writing to bring light to the lack of diversity of the
> current list of talks, and propose some action items.
> 
> There is how I understand things as they are. Please correct me if I am
> wrong.
> 
> - talk selection was/is being done blindly, as in no identifying
> information about the speaker is revealed
> - there are very little women on that preliminary talk list slated to
> speak
> - there are multiple selected speakers slated to give multiple selected
> talks
> 
> If you do not find a problem with item #2 and #3, please read this
> article [1] about importance of diversity in a technical field.
> 
> Here are my suggestions to rectify this issue:
> - limit speakers to only give one talk. Yes this means going back on the
> original acceptance.
> - reopen CfP and reach out to PyLadies globally to help get the word
> out. As one of the main leaders of the global organization, I know this
> did not happen originally.
> - re-review the talks. Give preference or help for those who would be
> first time speakers. First time speakers may need far more help writing
> a proposal tailored to the EuroPython audience. As reviewers, you have
> an understanding of the EP community and should help pull up new
> speakers.
> - related to #2, and #3, have open office hours  or create general
> availability during the time that the CfP is reopened to help those who
> want it craft a good proposal.
> - select talks for the remainder of the program with the context of the
> preliminarily talks in mind.
> 
> I understand that the blind selection process was meant in good faith to
> remove bias. However, the result is troubling, and needs to be looked at
> in context. If this preliminary list has any influence on the actual
> program, the conference will suffer in terms of overall diversity in
> attendance. I'm not writing to discuss the merit of diversity at a tech
> conference, because I have faith that the reviewers and organizers
> already grasp its importance. But this email is to address what I feel
> needs to change.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Lynn Root
> 
> [1]
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/technology/technologys-man-problem.html?_r=0
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014  Berlin, 21th27th July
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
> 

From stefan_ml at behnel.de  Fri Apr 18 19:10:42 2014
From: stefan_ml at behnel.de (Stefan Behnel)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 19:10:42 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <lim215$mmi$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20140416123917.GE7198@merlinux.eu> <lim215$mmi$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <lirmai$skn$1@ger.gmane.org>

Martijn Faassen, 16.04.2014 15:53:
> I also agree that the double blind
> selection process does not fit the goals of EuroPython so much -- I already
> gave feedback on that elsewhere in this thread.

Agreed.

1) It didn't always work, because some proposals included references to
previous talks, links to prepared slides or because authors signed their
responses to reviewer requests with their names. And even if not, for some
topics it's just obvious who's behind them. At least some of the reviewers
will always know.

2) I agree with Laura that it sometimes helps to know that the person who's
written the proposal is the best to give a talk on that topic, regardless
of what the proposal says specifically. Letting people represent their
topics in the community (i.e. giving well known speakers their play ground)
is IMHO as important as growing the community (i.e. getting new speakers in
because they add a value to the community and/or the conference in *some* way).

For me as a reviewer, it's helpful to see the names. Either I know them and
can make that part of my review decision, or I don't know them and can make
*that* part of my review decision. Or not, if the proposal is so good that
I don't need to think any further anyway, but that's surprisingly rare. As
long as it's clear to all reviewers that getting new people in is an
explicit goal of the selection process, I think having name and bio visible
would work better. And stating this goal publicly in the CfP might even
make it easier for first-time participants to send us a proposal at all.

In the worst case, there could still be a (soft) quota to limit the number
of recurring speakers. :)

Stefan



From lynn at lynnroot.com  Fri Apr 18 21:30:08 2014
From: lynn at lynnroot.com (Lynn Root)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:30:08 -0700
Subject: [EuroPython] Lack of diversity within selected talks
In-Reply-To: <lirmai$skn$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <1397554130.9208.106634353.5C1B88B9@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20140416123917.GE7198@merlinux.eu> <lim215$mmi$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <lirmai$skn$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1397849408.26244.107998569.3C99748E@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Hi all -

I just wanted to say that I really appreciated this discussion.  A
couple of things that I noticed:

1. Everyone was polite and civil - a breath of fresh air when talking
about this sort of topic
2. Folks seem to generally accept that diversity is an asset at a
conference, and that the current preliminary talk list lacked that.  So
thank you - it seems that this community really "gets" it.
3. The amount of communication from the organizers - thank you.  I
appreciate you addressing this in a positive and quick manner.

I look forward to the final schedule, and I trust that curating the
final talk list will have a lot of thought towards it.

So - thank you all.  

Lynn Root


From faassen at startifact.com  Wed Apr 23 16:20:50 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:20:50 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org> <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
Message-ID: <lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hey,

On 04/17/2014 04:40 PM, Giovanni Bajo wrote:
> At the end of the day, more talks for more days seems like a better
> overall solution, and people are welcome to consider it a 3-days
> conference if they feel so. Consider that the submissions far exceed
> even the current schedule, so it?s not like ?anything gets in?.

With this argument a 3 week conference would be automatically better 
than 1 week conference given enough submissions, but nobody is 
suggesting that. There are other factors that tie into this, such as 
people's attention span, costs for attendees, cost of organization, etc.

> Notice also that we got lots of positive feedback for the 1-week
> formula; the hallway track is far better because you have more time
> to meet people, talk to them, remeet them a second time, schedule a
> meetup, go out for a dinner or a beer. In a 2-and-a-half conference,
> it?s much harder, especially at the size of EuroPython.

That argument works a lot better. The question is whether this is really 
true for most people; a survey might help.

> I would also account for the fact that almost 900 people joined
> EuroPython in Florence last year, with more than a 2x boost in 3
> years, and the general feedback has been overwhelming positive.

It's possible that the longer conference accounted for the increase in 
attendance, but PyCon is not a whole week and even bigger, so I don't 
think it's safe to conclude this. It might be the conference grew due to 
other factors, including factors not directly to do with aspects of its 
organization such as the popularity of the Python language.

> As for the trainings: [snip]

I buy the arguments surrounding trainings. It then depends on the 
priorities of the conference on how important trainings are supposed to 
be in the overall picture. If EuroPython's goal is to attract people who 
are relatively new to Python and its community (sounds like a good 
goal), trainings like the way you do them seem like a good idea.

> So, while I?m personally always open to experimenting new formats
 > and playing with new ideas, I would say that we have an overwhelming
 > majority of positive feedbacks on the new structure, and it
 > incidentally works much better cost-wise.

Is this feedback data available somewhere? Or is this more anecdotal?

I have a minor issue with the way my suggestion is presented as 
experimenting with new formats. There is the implication that I'm 
suggesting something rather new and experimental. That's untrue; 
elsewhere I've given a historical overview of how EuroPython worked on 
its 3 day program for years before the shift to a 5 day program in 
recent years, and how it got to be this way step by step. I'll also note 
that a 3 day format for the conference proper is closer to the format of 
PyCon US.

I understand the cost argument and I understand the training in parallel 
argument both from an attendee and cost perspective. It's clear to me 
that the audience for EuroPython has been shifting, probably creating a 
heavier emphasis on trainings as a result, and that this necessitates 
change too. I will have to give it all a try.

But I think the only way to know whether this format is ideal is to get 
data from the audience that EuroPython is interested in attracting. Who 
knows, perhaps it turns out 3 weeks *is* the ideal conference length. :)

Regards,

Martijn


From mal at europython.eu  Wed Apr 23 19:13:56 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:13:56 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>	<26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>	<lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>	<BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>	<liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
 <lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu>

On 23.04.2014 16:20, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> I would also account for the fact that almost 900 people joined
>> EuroPython in Florence last year, with more than a 2x boost in 3
>> years, and the general feedback has been overwhelming positive.
> 
> It's possible that the longer conference accounted for the increase in attendance, but PyCon is not
> a whole week and even bigger, so I don't think it's safe to conclude this.

FWIW: PyCon US is a 9 day conference (2 days trainings, 3 days conference,
4 days sprints). EuroPython uses 7 days (one day keynotes, 4 days
talks and trainings, 2 days sprints). EuroPython has more talks/trainings
than PyCon US.

People attend conferences because they like the quality
of the talks/trainings, like the atmosphere, want to meet up with
people, enjoy the possibility to combine the conference with
vacation, etc. There are lots of reasons and motivations. For some of
these the length of the conference is important, for others it's
less important.

I don't think the length of the conference has a major effect on its
popularity. Both PyCon US and EuroPython have been sold out in recent
years.

We should probably put the question of which format is preferred
on the conference feedback form and then see whether a change would
be worthwhile to improve the attendee experience.

For a historical overview of the EuroPython conference structures
and attendee counts, have a look at:

http://www.europython-society.org/europython

Cheers,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From lac at openend.se  Wed Apr 23 22:10:41 2014
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:10:41 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: Message from "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal@europython.eu>
 of "Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:13:56 +0200." <5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org> <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
 <lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org><5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu>
Message-ID: <201404232010.s3NKAfim012058@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:13:56 +0200, "M.-A. Lemburg" writes:
<snip>

>We should probably put the question of which format is preferred
>on the conference feedback form and then see whether a change would
>be worthwhile to improve the attendee experience.

--------

You have to be careful with this.  If there is any bias to be found -- and
there may be none, of course - the people who attend a conference can
be assumed to be biased in favour of <feature X> where <feature X> is
something that the conference just did.  After all, they are the people
who just voted with their wallets and their feet.

The people you would like to poll are the people who didn't attend this
years EP, especially those who attended in the past, to find out why it
is that they didn't. If it turns out that they hate <feature X> enough
to stop coming, then the conference organisers will have some hard
decisions to make.

The demands to grow the conference and have more people attending are
fundamentally incompatible with the hatred some people have for large
conferences.  A desire to reach out to new programmers is incompatible
with a desire for many fewer introductory talks.  Organising a
conference is hard work, in part because you have to try to balance
these demands.  But if you ever miss the mark, badly, in your
balancing act it won't be among the people that attended that you will
find out where it was you went wrong.

Laura


From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Apr 23 23:18:57 2014
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:18:57 -0500
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <201404232010.s3NKAfim012058@fido.openend.se>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org> <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
 <lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org> <mal@europython.eu>
 <5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu>
 <201404232010.s3NKAfim012058@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSiarCOea71ntk=G0bG7X6GmCQmFc_M6om_4Z1j-w9QHWA@mail.gmail.com>

We all have ideas about what is good.   bottom line: it's complicated.
There are no unit tests, just personal judgment.

Some group of people plan and run an event = good.
To this year's team, and really all PyCon's I have been aware of, keep up
the good work.  I am not aware of any event that should not have
happened.   People come, they learn, they leave and post about how amazing
it was.

If some other group of people want to run some different event, that's good
too.  You will get support and advice from the 100's of us that have helped
in the past.  And you are welcome to ignore any and all of it.

I see lots of effort into trying to tune a single event to make it better.
I think it wold be better if that effort was put into creating another
event.



On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Laura Creighton <lac at openend.se> wrote:

> In a message of Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:13:56 +0200, "M.-A. Lemburg" writes:
> <snip>
>
> >We should probably put the question of which format is preferred
> >on the conference feedback form and then see whether a change would
> >be worthwhile to improve the attendee experience.
>
> --------
>
> You have to be careful with this.  If there is any bias to be found -- and
> there may be none, of course - the people who attend a conference can
> be assumed to be biased in favour of <feature X> where <feature X> is
> something that the conference just did.  After all, they are the people
> who just voted with their wallets and their feet.
>
> The people you would like to poll are the people who didn't attend this
> years EP, especially those who attended in the past, to find out why it
> is that they didn't. If it turns out that they hate <feature X> enough
> to stop coming, then the conference organisers will have some hard
> decisions to make.
>
> The demands to grow the conference and have more people attending are
> fundamentally incompatible with the hatred some people have for large
> conferences.  A desire to reach out to new programmers is incompatible
> with a desire for many fewer introductory talks.  Organising a
> conference is hard work, in part because you have to try to balance
> these demands.  But if you ever miss the mark, badly, in your
> balancing act it won't be among the people that attended that you will
> find out where it was you went wrong.
>
> Laura
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>



-- 
Carl K
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From faassen at startifact.com  Thu Apr 24 12:35:11 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:35:11 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSiarCOea71ntk=G0bG7X6GmCQmFc_M6om_4Z1j-w9QHWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org> <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
 <lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org> <mal@europython.eu>
 <5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu> <201404232010.s3NKAfim012058@fido.openend.se>
 <CADmzSSiarCOea71ntk=G0bG7X6GmCQmFc_M6om_4Z1j-w9QHWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ljapcv$eqg$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/23/2014 11:18 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:
> We all have ideas about what is good.   bottom line: it's complicated.
> There are no unit tests, just personal judgment.
>
> Some group of people plan and run an event = good.
> To this year's team, and really all PyCon's I have been aware of, keep
> up the good work.  I am not aware of any event that should not have
> happened.   People come, they learn, they leave and post about how
> amazing it was.
>
> If some other group of people want to run some different event, that's
> good too.  You will get support and advice from the 100's of us that
> have helped in the past.  And you are welcome to ignore any and all of it.
>
> I see lots of effort into trying to tune a single event to make it
> better.  I think it wold be better if that effort was put into creating
> another event.

I'm trying to understand the intent your email. Are you telling some of 
us to just go away and do our own thing? This isn't an us versus them. 
We're not outsiders barging in; we're old friends. I do count as one of 
the people who has helped organize EuroPython in the past, just like 
you. So does Laura.

Just to be clear: this is intended to be a conversation, not an attack.

And just to be clear again: I'm not suggesting we should change 
EuroPython 2014's schedule; I don't think anybody is. We're talking 
about EuroPython in the future.

We're having a discussion about the conference length. We learn from 
each other's perspectives. I learned a lot more about the motivations to 
make it 5 days and have talks and trainings in parallel. Perhaps someone 
else discovered from this conversation that 5 days of conference proper 
is in fact a bit long for some people, and that historically actually 
EuroPython wasn't a 5 day conference.

I think it's good to learn these things, and it's good to discuss what 
this conference is trying to be once every while.

If we want to learn more to inform future decisions, it makes sense to 
do some kind of survey. Laura is suggesting some ways to get fair 
feedback on this topic. It's human psychology that people who just 
invested time in something will be biased towards being approving of it, 
and it makes sense to take this into account. Her suggestion to try to 
contact past attendees is an interesting idea, I think.

Regards,

Martijn




From mal at europython.eu  Thu Apr 24 13:13:57 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:13:57 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <5358E4AE.8020707@startifact.com>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>	<26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>	<lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>	<BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>	<liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>	<lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu> <5358E4AE.8020707@startifact.com>
Message-ID: <5358F1F5.8040600@europython.eu>

On 24.04.2014 12:17, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> On 04/23/2014 07:13 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> On 23.04.2014 16:20, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>>> I would also account for the fact that almost 900 people joined
>>>> EuroPython in Florence last year, with more than a 2x boost in 3
>>>> years, and the general feedback has been overwhelming positive.
>>>
>>> It's possible that the longer conference accounted for the increase in attendance, but PyCon is not
>>> a whole week and even bigger, so I don't think it's safe to conclude this.
>>
>> FWIW: PyCon US is a 9 day conference (2 days trainings, 3 days conference,
>> 4 days sprints). EuroPython uses 7 days (one day keynotes, 4 days
>> talks and trainings, 2 days sprints). EuroPython has more talks/trainings
>> than PyCon US.
> 
> Yes, I understand PyCon US is more like EuroPython back in 2009, with 3 days conference proper, 2
> days training. I've been talking about the actual conference days.

Yep, but the total length is two days more. For many attendees
of PyCon, the sprints are the most important part. Judging from the
lunch attendance at this years PyCon, about 1/4 - 1/3 of the attendees
stayed for the first sprint day.

>> I don't think the length of the conference has a major effect on its
>> popularity. Both PyCon US and EuroPython have been sold out in recent
>> years.
> 
> I agree.
> 
>> For a historical overview of the EuroPython conference structures
>> and attendee counts, have a look at:
>>
>> http://www.europython-society.org/europython
> 
> Cool, see also my analysis elsewhere in this thread.

I'll try to add that data to the page as well.

> Concerning EuroPython 2005; it says the conference was from *june* 6 until *july* 7? That can't be
> right. :) The brochure has monday june 27 - until wednesday june 29.

Thanks. I've fixed the dates now. The 2005 edition had conference days on
June 27 - 29, with sprints from June 30 - July 3. The tutorials were
mixed into the conference talk days, just like is done now.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find attendee counts for
the years 2004 - 2007.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de  Thu Apr 24 13:19:02 2014
From: gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:19:02 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <ljapcv$eqg$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org> <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
 <lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org> <mal@europython.eu>
 <5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu> <201404232010.s3NKAfim012058@fido.openend.se>
 <CADmzSSiarCOea71ntk=G0bG7X6GmCQmFc_M6om_4Z1j-w9QHWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ljapcv$eqg$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1AA1A851-972F-4124-906B-1D54F2ED4A7C@darwin.in-berlin.de>

Martijn Faassen:

> I'm trying to understand the intent your email. Are you telling some of us to just go away and do our own thing? This isn't an us versus them. We're not outsiders barging in; we're old friends. I do count as one of the people who has helped organize EuroPython in the past, just like you. So does Laura.

I'm not trying to put a dent in this, but I understood Carl in the sense of: there might not be any ideal solution to please all. So, instead of searching the one ideal solution that (as we know) doesn't exist, one could also try out other solutions optimizing a different set of criteria. Which would bring us nicely back to the current theme of "diversity", again.

After all, yes, it's good to discuss people's experience and match it with own's own and learn from that. But the purpose of learning something is doing (or not doing) something. And some people say that one can learn more from making mistakes than from not making them. And no, we don't build nuclear power plants. And yes, they haven't been discussed enough before they were built... And wow, there could be EuroPython barcamps and unconfs and hackathons and events not invented yet, if we can imagine them... 

I-cannot-see-the-value-of-a-"GIL"-for-EuroPython-events'ly,

Dinu


From faassen at startifact.com  Thu Apr 24 14:32:34 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:32:34 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <1AA1A851-972F-4124-906B-1D54F2ED4A7C@darwin.in-berlin.de>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org> <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
 <lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org> <mal@europython.eu>
 <5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu> <201404232010.s3NKAfim012058@fido.openend.se>
 <CADmzSSiarCOea71ntk=G0bG7X6GmCQmFc_M6om_4Z1j-w9QHWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ljapcv$eqg$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <1AA1A851-972F-4124-906B-1D54F2ED4A7C@darwin.in-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <ljb092$9j0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/24/2014 01:19 PM, Dinu Gherman wrote:
> Martijn Faassen:
>
>> I'm trying to understand the intent your email. Are you telling
>> some of us to just go away and do our own thing? This isn't an us
>> versus them. We're not outsiders barging in; we're old friends. I
>> do count as one of the people who has helped organize EuroPython in
>> the past, just like you. So does Laura.
>
> I'm not trying to put a dent in this, but I understood Carl in the
> sense of: there might not be any ideal solution to please all.

Of course there won't be, obviously not. But was anyone claiming there 
would be an ideal solution?

I was trying to do some things:

* express my own impressions and preferences and experience as a data point.

* get an idea on the history behind this change and the motivations. I 
learned quite a bit; thanks.

* trying to put the topic on the agenda to explicitly consider. 
Hopefully we can get more data from a representative audience (which I 
also think shouldn't just be the attendees in 2014) to inform this 
discussion.

I think I've done these things now, and now we'll see what's done with this.

Regards,

Martijn


From faassen at startifact.com  Thu Apr 24 14:40:08 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:40:08 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <5358F1F5.8040600@europython.eu>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>	<26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>	<lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>	<BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>	<liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>	<lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu> <5358E4AE.8020707@startifact.com>
 <5358F1F5.8040600@europython.eu>
Message-ID: <ljb0n8$h77$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/24/2014 01:13 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
[snip]
>> Yes, I understand PyCon US is more like EuroPython back in 2009, with 3 days conference proper, 2
>> days training. I've been talking about the actual conference days.
>
> Yep, but the total length is two days more.

In 2009 at EuroPython I participated in the sprints for I think 3 days 
too. So there were 8 days in all I think. (with a much smaller 
attendance for sprints)

> For many attendees
> of PyCon, the sprints are the most important part. Judging from the
> lunch attendance at this years PyCon, about 1/4 - 1/3 of the attendees
> stayed for the first sprint day.

Yes, that's what I expressed early on in this discussion; I do value the 
sprints at EuroPython a lot, and if you add 5 days conference proper 
before it, the whole thing becomes rather long at a stretch, for me, as 
an individual attendee.

So it's a matter of capacity, and goals. I can fully see there's not 
enough capacity to organize a 9 day sequence of events. For someone who 
likes trainings this program is probably better than a 
training/conference split, I can see that. For someone who likes sprints 
this is a rather heavy program.

> Thanks. I've fixed the dates now. The 2005 edition had conference days on
> June 27 - 29, with sprints from June 30 - July 3. The tutorials were
> mixed into the conference talk days, just like is done now.

Looks like EuroPython had a lot of different formats over the years!

Regards,

Martijn



From carl at personnelware.com  Thu Apr 24 17:13:24 2014
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:13:24 -0500
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <1AA1A851-972F-4124-906B-1D54F2ED4A7C@darwin.in-berlin.de>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org> <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
 <lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org> <mal@europython.eu>
 <5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu>
 <201404232010.s3NKAfim012058@fido.openend.se>
 <CADmzSSiarCOea71ntk=G0bG7X6GmCQmFc_M6om_4Z1j-w9QHWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ljapcv$eqg$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <1AA1A851-972F-4124-906B-1D54F2ED4A7C@darwin.in-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSgJwX=r3E2stHmzPupDOcQ1SVSBAsx67z-34fH+iktXQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Dinu Gherman
<gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de>wrote:

> Martijn Faassen:
>
> > I'm trying to understand the intent your email. Are you telling some of
> us to just go away and do our own thing? This isn't an us versus them.
> We're not outsiders barging in; we're old friends. I do count as one of the
> people who has helped organize EuroPython in the past, just like you. So
> does Laura.
>
> I'm not trying to put a dent in this, but I understood Carl in the sense
> of: there might not be any ideal solution to please all. So, instead of
> searching the one ideal solution that (as we know) doesn't exist, one could
> also try out other solutions optimizing a different set of criteria. Which
> would bring us nicely back to the current theme of "diversity", again.
>
> After all, yes, it's good to discuss people's experience and match it with
> own's own and learn from that. But the purpose of learning something is
> doing (or not doing) something. And some people say that one can learn more
> from making mistakes than from not making them. And no, we don't build
> nuclear power plants. And yes, they haven't been discussed enough before
> they were built... And wow, there could be EuroPython barcamps and unconfs
> and hackathons and events not invented yet, if we can imagine them...
>


Well put.

Except I am fairly confidant that there is *no* solution that will please
all.  ;)

-- 
Carl K
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From mal at europython.eu  Thu Apr 24 20:40:52 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:40:52 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSgJwX=r3E2stHmzPupDOcQ1SVSBAsx67z-34fH+iktXQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>	<26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>	<lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>	<BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>	<liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org>	<B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>	<lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mal@europython.eu>	<5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu>	<201404232010.s3NKAfim012058@fido.openend.se>	<CADmzSSiarCOea71ntk=G0bG7X6GmCQmFc_M6om_4Z1j-w9QHWA@mail.gmail.com>	<ljapcv$eqg$1@ger.gmane.org>	<1AA1A851-972F-4124-906B-1D54F2ED4A7C@darwin.in-berlin.de>
 <CADmzSSgJwX=r3E2stHmzPupDOcQ1SVSBAsx67z-34fH+iktXQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53595AB4.2090103@europython.eu>

Just as teaser: The EPS has some ideas on a new additional
format to complement the main EuroPython conference.

The idea is to have a format which does not require huge
rooms, but rather several smaller ones, so that the event
can be held at venues such as universities, colleges, etc.

At this time, it's all still up in the air, so don't expect
announcements any time soon :-)

Cheers,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From horst at zerokspot.com  Mon Apr 28 20:59:40 2014
From: horst at zerokspot.com (Horst Gutmann)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 20:59:40 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] conference length
In-Reply-To: <53595AB4.2090103@europython.eu>
References: <lijapi$ttu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <26F7922A-2B92-4D7F-BA90-7ECF679E2C5B@zerokspot.com>
 <lik8ar$rbj$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BE6416408C0A1B46AD4027222AD4FE49AE18B3@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
 <liohf7$sbp$1@ger.gmane.org> <B7C7C181-E36E-4744-A844-A45B90C2E4F4@pycon.it>
 <lj8i82$8fu$1@ger.gmane.org> <mal@europython.eu>
 <5357F4D4.90103@europython.eu> <201404232010.s3NKAfim012058@fido.openend.se>
 <CADmzSSiarCOea71ntk=G0bG7X6GmCQmFc_M6om_4Z1j-w9QHWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ljapcv$eqg$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <1AA1A851-972F-4124-906B-1D54F2ED4A7C@darwin.in-berlin.de>
 <CADmzSSgJwX=r3E2stHmzPupDOcQ1SVSBAsx67z-34fH+iktXQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53595AB4.2090103@europython.eu>
Message-ID: <DB42483D-4CA8-4CF9-9429-D5FFEB8B28EB@zerokspot.com>

That sounds great :-) This February's DjangoWeekend in Cardiff was a 
great example of how awesome such a small event can be. IIRC PyCon UK 
has also been sized down in recent years (sadly couldn't attend since 
2008).

-- Horst

On 24 Apr 2014, at 20:40, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

> Just as teaser: The EPS has some ideas on a new additional
> format to complement the main EuroPython conference.
>
> The idea is to have a format which does not require huge
> rooms, but rather several smaller ones, so that the event
> can be held at venues such as universities, colleges, etc.
>
> At this time, it's all still up in the air, so don't expect
> announcements any time soon :-)
>
> Cheers,
> -- 
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> Director
> EuroPython Society
> http://www.europython-society.org/
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
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From mal at europython.eu  Wed Apr 30 15:57:09 2014
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 15:57:09 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2014 wiki
Message-ID: <53610135.8000600@europython.eu>

Hello all,

I've created a EuroPython 2014 wiki which attendees can use to collect
useful information or organize themselves at or for the event:

    https://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython2014

Feel free to add information to the page as you see fit. I've started
adding some additional travel information to the page.

Cheers,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Director
EuroPython Society
http://www.europython-society.org/

From funthyme at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 16:57:03 2014
From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 15:57:03 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2014 wiki
In-Reply-To: <53610135.8000600@europython.eu>
References: <53610135.8000600@europython.eu>
Message-ID: <CAB-vKOQUJtN_i9N2OmUHjRx6fmGNk_DzOD5pJJr8dqZQAO2uPQ@mail.gmail.com>

That's really helpful...

Thanks, Marc

John
--

On 30 April 2014 14:57, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at europython.eu> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I've created a EuroPython 2014 wiki which attendees can use to collect
> useful information or organize themselves at or for the event:
>
>     https://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython2014
>
> Feel free to add information to the page as you see fit. I've started
> adding some additional travel information to the page.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> Director
> EuroPython Society
> http://www.europython-society.org/
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython 2014 - July 21th-27th in Berlin
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython