From lists at zopyx.com Sat Feb 1 08:03:35 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 08:03:35 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Pricing (was Re: Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started) In-Reply-To: <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> <9AF2ED68-FD6F-4FE9-8169-3B472D7964C2@zopyx.com> <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <52EC9C47.1040603@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Paul Boddie wrote: > On Friday 31. January 2014 20.53.34 Andreas Jung wrote: >> I have to correct the 2013 prices: 165/315/370. >> >> Still the prices of the EP 2014 are in a range that make this >> conference affordable and reasonably priced. Comparable >> conferences - often run only for two or three day - are more >> expensive. > > It's worth dipping into the historical record for price information. > Here's something I dug up: > > https://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2007/FeeStructureAttendees > > Obviously, back then there was no distinction between individual and > business rates at EuroPython. I see that PyCon this year is > ~95/260/445 for the regular rates, and I think that apart from those > choosing the corporate rate, the prices have remained fairly stable > for the established conferences, considering things like inflation, > longer conferences, more included stuff, and so on. > > Back in 2007, the exceptional conference was RuPy which offered > incredibly cheap rates for students, and I think we were all aware > that EuroPython was going to look expensive in comparison and might > end up being too expensive for the regional audience, particularly > students, but there was no chance that EuroPython could discount > rates aggressively to "compete" with RuPy. And of course, no-one was > really competing with anyone else, anyway. > > You can not directly compare RuPy 2007 with EP 2014. I was speaker at the first RuPy in Poznan and there is a certain difference in size, location, length of conference etc. - so do not let use compare apples with pears. Also keep in mind that the costs of conference visit also include costs for traveling and accommodation. Travelling to Florence appears more expensive then getting to Berlin. I payed between 250 and 300 EUR over the last years for the flights from Stuttgart to Florence. You can get to Berlin within Europe likely with half the money. So the conference fee is only one part of the overall personal price for a conference. Also every town and conference location has a different cost structure. In addition to that: there will be a financial assistance program for people needing financial support getting to EP 2014. Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS7JxHAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjb2wLwJlFIJJV99UuoJ77Pi0z4zCz wdFHS8Obwh/0eYyDS6FZfvI0/ANhJJ56+3osoLA0nW1/fTnoHO8Lma6eOr276P96 jCb9HV14VqEzPicgQu0Em9KdgvHG+5MAweuOpOmdg2gEWXdeIsmby60V89x1g7zn coeQ0OjwyFq+1zdD+2ltMMiS7evNF7LfIZCl5RCk0xl29H3EYmtowJDX0vSL4Ajf zot5lbCgz7Di1QJKBBRzVjLR+hVRbY3jzlEY3/vggDOCWxmOigEK72jvYPrkkhld 8c2fHx7on50+5VtxqvFae6W/1JpZ9J1WbYy6AYqgfaZuuqj/VB6ggqtOh4PhW5Wn 3uwTIObO56et+1fPJxZZwB31e6wt1b7x8zo91toHV5plrDWi/L4Y/jSeGV5c4bLt kTpKxgEUGZeBgFx+2qXJDvb5PPI7nKukTdP+imH1S0d7j2AVjCj43V33ejKv85RG 7ThLrjmzuyDaUeKLcI9J52bUV/7HK8M= =Tp+L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lists.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lists at zopyx.com Sat Feb 1 08:50:31 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 08:50:31 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Pricing (was Re: Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started) In-Reply-To: <52EC9C47.1040603@zopyx.com> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> <9AF2ED68-FD6F-4FE9-8169-3B472D7964C2@zopyx.com> <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> <52EC9C47.1040603@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52ECA747.3050209@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Jung wrote: > You can not directly compare RuPy 2007 with EP 2014. I was speaker > at the first RuPy in Poznan and there is a certain difference in > size, location, length of conference etc. - so do not let use compare > apples with pears. > > Also keep in mind that the costs of conference visit also include > costs for traveling and accommodation. Travelling to Florence appears > more expensive then getting to Berlin. I payed between 250 and 300 > EUR over the last years for the flights from Stuttgart to Florence. > You can get to Berlin within Europe likely with half the money. So > the conference fee is only one part of the overall personal price for > a conference. > > Also every town and conference location has a different cost > structure. > > In addition to that: there will be a financial assistance program > for people needing financial support getting to EP 2014. Just checked the prices of another comparable "nerdish" conference: Berlin Buzz Words runs for four days (EP runs for seven days including sprints): http://berlinbuzzwords.de/tickets The prices are in the same range for less days... Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS7KdHAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjPasLv3h7TUkyxjnnfefM6aEjUgXb VqWv2nMJGIW92mD5u1ozZX+DBev+Ldt5es36zkuR9+ocvidQ5d9LHWGcCEGe4orI tac+mjTEMaVmQ2BW+xZ6IwzEuBxFuqfjIE1mD41ZtRtONNSuEP1U7EIo0jlcj6Yn ZdMFaxtJsSRCz1LrWWprtrdSGRsyFrJngE4gI59A3vzb4fMw8qJuOgCQlRzFSE1f ql9gumVe4PVeMfrr0P9hTucp3PJ6O5s6n+LAvyUP41mc8ihqmRSad+lLSyTtINbM UI0KPOj/6Oi8QEB6RYz/H+UHMHD3rW2VQawx005EDSC9t+ilbuSPrXADS9NUUJgB B81+ZeyYLT9CjVvs6bo/z4LbxSouQ5CT9XQwSa+rNSI+fEpaqWW/KwLtelOscX/Z lPxXDf3bXkOIGuYm/i+MD4OzR2dp59dYi6ooC99krftjIYV9n1Ra4oWjKH5Ksoa9 P70xWb4zjPiLaRf3z+A+A2NBsX2aVrg= =p6iI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lists.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gadgetsteve at hotmail.com Sat Feb 1 11:30:02 2014 From: gadgetsteve at hotmail.com (Steve Barnes) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 10:30:02 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Pricing (was Re: Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started) In-Reply-To: <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> <9AF2ED68-FD6F-4FE9-8169-3B472D7964C2@zopyx.com> <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: On 31/01/14 22:23, Paul Boddie wrote: > On Friday 31. January 2014 20.53.34 Andreas Jung wrote: >> I have to correct the 2013 prices: 165/315/370. >> >> Still the prices of the EP 2014 are in a range that make this conference >> affordable and reasonably priced. Comparable conferences - often run only >> for two or three day - are more expensive. > My main problem is the lack of information on the web site - https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/conference/tickets/ has NO information on ticket pricing to date. As I am hoping to get my employer to sponsor my trip I need that information and details of the payment method and organisers ASAP as on top of the cost approval we have a complex Approved Vendor List process to try to get through. I was also hoping for at least an indication of any intent to have a partners program as my wife would not be interested in the conference proceedings. Does anybody have any idea when these details are likely to be officially available - i.e. on the web site? Steve (Gadget) Barnes. From lists at zopyx.com Sat Feb 1 12:15:02 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 12:15:02 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Pricing (was Re: Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started) In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> <9AF2ED68-FD6F-4FE9-8169-3B472D7964C2@zopyx.com> <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <52ECD736.5070004@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Steve Barnes wrote: > On 31/01/14 22:23, Paul Boddie wrote: >> On Friday 31. January 2014 20.53.34 Andreas Jung wrote: >>> I have to correct the 2013 prices: 165/315/370. >>> >>> Still the prices of the EP 2014 are in a range that make this >>> conference affordable and reasonably priced. Comparable >>> conferences - often run only for two or three day - are more >>> expensive. >> > My main problem is the lack of information on the web site - > https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/conference/tickets/ has NO > information on ticket pricing to date. > > As I am hoping to get my employer to sponsor my trip I need that > information and details of the payment method and organisers ASAP as > on top of the cost approval we have a complex Approved Vendor List > process to try to get through. > > I was also hoping for at least an indication of any intent to have a > partners program as my wife would not be interested in the > conference proceedings. > > Does anybody have any idea when these details are likely to be > officially available - i.e. on the web site? The ticket sale will start next Wednesday, 5.2.2014 - we announced that yesterday after we can the final approval by EPS this week. So could not announce any prices in advance. The ticket information will go online Wednesday with the start of the ticket sale - including further information about the financial assistance programm. Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS7Nc2AAoJEADcfz7u4AZjGsoLvjp9zjPIKOpUPcX14jssNwjU nxI+VMQV9Zo2xDdYI8mckDf5K1dG2NhT6oBDA/OoazQ+WUwsOnQF+3hgZLo3ALYx ZhKPu729H3JtPUY2ZTpEsxtIHuDu71esGjAfhGMGecpOv9mI5BqAEHHq29lLjP0R ge9J28BCf6tC99aALDyGN6mFe6pe0UvO+CSoiZ+MXqsA2YmT9n6vsPGeGWyQ9Vuc c6+x1qzQ7m/7ZIgMvQOpYH6VTeL/3CAsHzZIk1btVWmYr5g0xa6ESY0lwauZGRCy WsjSZmVmRD8VAsg2qd32jaZDaQp9S9IrKVo6UAm7valEKnOyiQebN9HYtCIowWW0 fTPRVn9yFw9/DroJvcoA6IaSuKmBGE+Jyln1DNzus/4JI4ynBUxvyqzcFVKTqI1a S/P1FQrqKb7+GB4WLYQoO8eqWzxW4P7p8ecZC9U0kjBLgYUKfNb8wz4LAGoViy4M oGIfkgtp40pP0/Bxa+O94wp8Z0Zrr7o= =D9Ri -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lists.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lists at zopyx.com Sat Feb 1 12:37:43 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 12:37:43 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Pricing (was Re: Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started) In-Reply-To: <52ECD736.5070004@zopyx.com> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> <9AF2ED68-FD6F-4FE9-8169-3B472D7964C2@zopyx.com> <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> <52ECD736.5070004@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52ECDC87.9050704@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Jung wrote: > > > Steve Barnes wrote: >> On 31/01/14 22:23, Paul Boddie wrote: >>> On Friday 31. January 2014 20.53.34 Andreas Jung wrote: >>>> I have to correct the 2013 prices: 165/315/370. >>>> >>>> Still the prices of the EP 2014 are in a range that make this >>>> conference affordable and reasonably priced. Comparable >>>> conferences - often run only for two or three day - are more >>>> expensive. >> My main problem is the lack of information on the web site - >> https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/conference/tickets/ has NO >> information on ticket pricing to date. > >> As I am hoping to get my employer to sponsor my trip I need that >> information and details of the payment method and organisers ASAP >> as on top of the cost approval we have a complex Approved Vendor >> List process to try to get through. > >> I was also hoping for at least an indication of any intent to have >> a partners program as my wife would not be interested in the >> conference proceedings. > >> Does anybody have any idea when these details are likely to be >> officially available - i.e. on the web site? > > The ticket sale will start next Wednesday, 5.2.2014 - we announced > that yesterday after we can the final approval by EPS this week. So > could not announce any prices in advance. The ticket information will > go online Wednesday with the start of the ticket sale - including > further information about the financial assistance programm. > And I just put the News page online: https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/conference/news/ Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS7NyGAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjRgQLvjBTlb/JZTkRCZrBviogMDge xxDPSCYq4kaOj29dYTVepjOZoTr7FJFa2Elm8FLbMeh4AzZl+cTp0aVW1gcH2cRv d+FR8rUEYOw1U72AaxH4oB6hlB486fu1UkvbVh1W6lKCwM3WlZ/WxlI+y7M5VNj8 uGyAC4QiR2V+Rhz4VQAgFEeAEoM4TpsRjwwIM5ejoL0OfaYoUqTA0RBXK3Ti6fYb 2zw5GKt8zQG9Tm/LGY7ySi+ASdEnPNp9EyJ4PHUwDtB5uH87zw0raAH6Vcf8eo2T 8U+0xczT+RytpunnWDhjasLUDzbey3TSGY8F1mSkBSK8p9fwAPU+C0BWwMT9XlsI ZNcQVoqBvuznEtPw5A3mToh/fij1OEZwUgKUdkgo324fsEx4ffsVnuVdeQ2eRBs3 Q2PFNPp3wP2o9Ir1AnYfMz2sv+1RciFIKF+F7ag4gvetiyN51D6y0nJ77NXKH8FJ t6NXXmrBdachOhhvR5vVPKaQe1AVv/o= =T+Ui -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lists.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparks.m at gmail.com Sat Feb 1 12:59:38 2014 From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 11:59:38 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: 400? Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). Unless when you say 'all inclusive' you mean 'including accommodation'. I presume the increased costs are at least in part due to the slow shift towards peak holiday season. (I haven't been since Birmingham due to the massively increase cosy of sending. For those who don't remember/know, when Euro python was in the UK I organised the recording and transcoding of talks, on a shoe string) Saying it's 'comparable to other conferences' it's pointless btw, the reason (in part at least as I understood it) Euro python existed was to have an affordable alternative. Michael. On 31 Jan 2014 19:05, "Andreas Jung" wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Jacob Hall?n wrote: > > > > > In the Call for Participation that was the basis for the selection of > > a new site for Europython, there was a requirement for the cost of > > attendance. It turns out that the promised figures from the Berlin > > team can't be met and that cost of attendance will take a serious > > jump, compared to Florence. > > > > This is a serious problem for the EPS, because our explicit goal is > > to arrange a really affordable conference. We are now looking at > > conference fees that are 5 times higher than the ones for G?teborg > > and it is starting to hurt. Worries about getting enough participants > > and getting a reasonable mix of people has gotten the EPS board more > > involved in pricing issues than they would like to be. This is not > > only a concern for the conference this year, but for future > > conferences. A large number of the attendees have come to EuroPython > > for many years. If they are scared off by the price this year, they > > are less likely to come back in the future. > > > > With respect but this is FUD. > > The standard ticket price for EP 2013 were for Student/Individual/Business: > 330 ? / 500 ? / 620 ? > > The standard EP 2014 rates are for Student/Individual/Business: > > 200 ? / 400 ? / 600 ? > > Keep in mind that all EP 2014 tickets are all-inclusive (social event, > catering during the sprints etc.) > > Andreas > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS6/PIAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjLcELwM0a9Fe4fLkA+mULWdLfKvP9 > HHHLVH99/hs/Pe4ZHAmcUF2rc6T3lyLdAC/XK3EzTl+ppEGdbXlab+oPrN6VfjHv > GnUVvt7TKYfCI4cw9FkgqF1wXrqdcRVT0MXu1fecKUxKst+zQ54XaI+wY8MGhDww > dC1KA5YTYZODSO3l+WFxpMblxSTeyegutSaPV7XdoxxSq5bhLhnEEj6Ev9uAxql9 > Dg87vOpTWe6DU/g/0A3tsaJCduwvOVwYyHBPBPuOYts7zYrVv0QYDdNXi7Jw8Gl4 > HVFd2Xb4IBPWYpeUmL1QeFj+o652aE0kIpNAIxHVi856HhyCKwBGqzpqRo/5YOcI > C9K6kg6kacINgiwsNSulm2sa0JLM/AsiWMd5ZFgqnaJAi3mpRcaN+dZ00zMPuvax > Bhmv3ea1FJubFfu9XQWYJug4R7yEs8zwd9IDikSaQb94v68rDqZ+61SZ2W+Mk+eQ > V+P0egepnsnqRp9dnuRAFN9J7gySQmA= > =yuc7 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 - Berlin, 21th-27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul at boddie.org.uk Sat Feb 1 14:48:59 2014 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 14:48:59 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Pricing (was Re: Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started) In-Reply-To: <52EC9C47.1040603@zopyx.com> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> <52EC9C47.1040603@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <201402011448.59891.paul@boddie.org.uk> On Saturday 1. February 2014 08.03.35 Andreas wrote: > Paul Boddie wrote: > > > > Back in 2007, the exceptional conference was RuPy which offered > > incredibly cheap rates for students, and I think we were all aware > > that EuroPython was going to look expensive in comparison and might > > end up being too expensive for the regional audience, particularly > > students, but there was no chance that EuroPython could discount > > rates aggressively to "compete" with RuPy. And of course, no-one was > > really competing with anyone else, anyway. > > You can not directly compare RuPy 2007 with EP 2014. I was speaker at > the first RuPy in Poznan and there is a certain difference in size, > location, length of conference etc. - so do not let use compare apples > with pears. For the record, I wasn't comparing RuPy 2007 with this year's conference. I was just saying that back in 2007, when hosting a conference in what might be regarded as broadly the same region as RuPy, and trying to appeal to the same audience, some people might have decided that the base price was more attractive for RuPy and that they'd go there instead. > Also keep in mind that the costs of conference visit also include costs > for traveling and accommodation. Travelling to Florence appears more > expensive then getting to Berlin. I payed between 250 and 300 EUR over > the last years for the flights from Stuttgart to Florence. You can > get to Berlin within Europe likely with half the money. So the > conference fee is only one part of the overall personal price for a > conference. Yes, I think most people are aware of this. Again, back in 2007 (from which I sampled the figures), many people would have been travelling to EuroPython by air from western and central parts of Europe because, if I remember correctly, the rail options were rather inconvenient, and so the lower cost options that people might have chosen (to go to RuPy in Pozna?, say, although I wouldn't know) weren't available. > Also every town and conference location has a different cost structure. Yes, that's why you don't have people hurrying to have these events in Norway. > In addition to that: there will be a financial assistance program for > people needing financial support getting to EP 2014. Great! By the way, I wasn't criticising anyone, but just trying to remind people of the historic pricing and what considerations existed about such matters at the time, especially since there seemed to be some confusion about what the pricing actually was. Paul P.S. I can go into more detail about where people came from to go to EuroPython in Geneva, Vilnius or Birmingham, if people are sincerely interested in that, but I don't think I need to labour the point, really. From funthyme at gmail.com Sat Feb 1 16:08:44 2014 From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 15:08:44 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: Hello All, On 1 February 2014 11:59, Michael wrote: > 400? > > Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was > ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). > > Unless when you say 'all inclusive' you mean 'including accommodation'. > > I presume the increased costs are at least in part due to the slow shift > towards peak holiday season. > > (I haven't been since Birmingham due to the massively increase cosy of > sending. For those who don't remember/know, when Euro python was in the UK I > organised the recording and transcoding of talks, on a shoe string) And I thought that you'd used digital media... Seriously, your input is much appreciated, we've missed you. > > Saying it's 'comparable to other conferences' it's pointless btw, the reason > (in part at least as I understood it) Euro python existed was to have an > affordable alternative. Yes, but i think that successive organisers have tried to make bigger and 'better' conferences, and once you get beyond a certain size the venue costs make the concept of an affordable 'community conference' very difficult to achieve. The extreme example is PyCon US, which when Steve Holden started it in DC was very affordable, I remember going for an all-in cost of attending less than that of going to the ACCU/Python UK conf in Oxford (just 100km from my home). Which is why we started PyCon UK, where we have managed to keep costs down to an affordable level. Nowadays, PyCon US and to a lesser extent EuroPython, have become beyond the reach of the grass roots Python enthusiasts without a sympathetic employer willing to pay their conf fees and expenses, and grant a week's time off. I think that it may be time for the various organising cabales to re-examine their objectives and decide if they are running genuine community conferences or not. If not, that's a valid decision but we need to be clear about it. Just saying... Best wishes, John -- > > Michael. > > On 31 Jan 2014 19:05, "Andreas Jung" wrote: >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> >> >> Jacob Hall?n wrote: >> >> > >> > In the Call for Participation that was the basis for the selection of >> > a new site for Europython, there was a requirement for the cost of >> > attendance. It turns out that the promised figures from the Berlin >> > team can't be met and that cost of attendance will take a serious >> > jump, compared to Florence. >> > >> > This is a serious problem for the EPS, because our explicit goal is >> > to arrange a really affordable conference. We are now looking at >> > conference fees that are 5 times higher than the ones for G?teborg >> > and it is starting to hurt. Worries about getting enough participants >> > and getting a reasonable mix of people has gotten the EPS board more >> > involved in pricing issues than they would like to be. This is not >> > only a concern for the conference this year, but for future >> > conferences. A large number of the attendees have come to EuroPython >> > for many years. If they are scared off by the price this year, they >> > are less likely to come back in the future. >> > >> >> With respect but this is FUD. >> >> The standard ticket price for EP 2013 were for >> Student/Individual/Business: >> 330 ? / 500 ? / 620 ? >> >> The standard EP 2014 rates are for Student/Individual/Business: >> >> 200 ? / 400 ? / 600 ? >> >> Keep in mind that all EP 2014 tickets are all-inclusive (social event, >> catering during the sprints etc.) >> >> Andreas >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ >> >> iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS6/PIAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjLcELwM0a9Fe4fLkA+mULWdLfKvP9 >> HHHLVH99/hs/Pe4ZHAmcUF2rc6T3lyLdAC/XK3EzTl+ppEGdbXlab+oPrN6VfjHv >> GnUVvt7TKYfCI4cw9FkgqF1wXrqdcRVT0MXu1fecKUxKst+zQ54XaI+wY8MGhDww >> dC1KA5YTYZODSO3l+WFxpMblxSTeyegutSaPV7XdoxxSq5bhLhnEEj6Ev9uAxql9 >> Dg87vOpTWe6DU/g/0A3tsaJCduwvOVwYyHBPBPuOYts7zYrVv0QYDdNXi7Jw8Gl4 >> HVFd2Xb4IBPWYpeUmL1QeFj+o652aE0kIpNAIxHVi856HhyCKwBGqzpqRo/5YOcI >> C9K6kg6kacINgiwsNSulm2sa0JLM/AsiWMd5ZFgqnaJAi3mpRcaN+dZ00zMPuvax >> Bhmv3ea1FJubFfu9XQWYJug4R7yEs8zwd9IDikSaQb94v68rDqZ+61SZ2W+Mk+eQ >> V+P0egepnsnqRp9dnuRAFN9J7gySQmA= >> =yuc7 >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> EuroPython 2014 ? Berlin, 21th?27th July >> >> EuroPython mailing list >> EuroPython at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 ? Berlin, 21th?27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From lists at zopyx.com Sat Feb 1 17:10:35 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 17:10:35 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52ED1C7B.3000407@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 David Gillies wrote: > I agree completely with Michael, I haven't been able to attend since > the Birmingham conferences either due to the expense involved. I think it is the common process of conferences become more expensive as soon as they become larger and more popular. You need a complete different approach to logistics when you deal with up to a thousand people or deal only with small crowd of perhaps 100 to 150 people. I am not in charge for the EP 2014 financial part but it is obvious that you can not organize a conference for the same costs per persons if you deal with 100 attendees or 1000 attendees. More people, more different aspects to be considered, higher costs...I think there is no real way out of there - expect all 1000 attendees in a huge barn and tell them to bring their own beer and burgers..well, perhaps an option :-) Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS7Rx6AAoJEADcfz7u4AZjXsMLwJnn/EdjarOwuRT8I1IcMYbz WqWkTlsrarbLG2L5z+OjQJHlaoSjEFaawmuzKhWTxIle2IgN3qCPkctnY4vBp9H3 LNmnetHz0XLY6UESxkAZqLsZXLkN4cUfNtn+qrBWXoiGYX08Yze5nHtFnwarr3NS 8VeM3YFsXqaLVLfwnwVbUq0LXsH4NV7BozqP2RFsGyHhc+c0OWOQ3zDH7GiDS+vr fQV+Zn2dfYyvCP6qJe74BY/aZirIWegAtl0EX5BERooihck38FWtEa3D6w7xP4nV Lfr1qzFBaet7pkbS2jWJ5OHZO+6ECRHTwMm+xTOMVGfTdznmlebANRSroH3rSarL zBg8Xyg/v5Dd8oSotpDi1qt7hFK+W88wSUYPqeWq6jLK/QxiINRKcfyZnfuZpTvt YHxNzq9ermt1U4H2JfDfYWgBApV36/TiPP2d9HPkE3Q8TcpguK+4qrRY3eIzxzbz Xf0vJ6hIoCEmyz+LuVDKeAR4Cp9A+F0= =TpsL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lists.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paul at boddie.org.uk Sat Feb 1 17:42:45 2014 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 17:42:45 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <52ED1C7B.3000407@zopyx.com> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52ED1C7B.3000407@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <201402011742.45810.paul@boddie.org.uk> On Saturday 1. February 2014 17.10.35 Andreas Jung wrote: > I think there is no real way out of there - expect all 1000 attendees in a > huge barn and tell them to bring their own beer and burgers..well, perhaps > an option :-) Switch out the burgers with sausages and I was led to believe that this happens every October in Munich, although I'm not sure everyone involved will be happy when they're told that they have to learn Python. ;-) Paul P.S. I think that PyCon in North America has made a virtue out of conference size in some kind of race to be bigger than the previous year's event, which I've said on a number of previous occasions makes for a different kind of conference and not one I think anyone should be emulating, but that's just my own opinion. From d.gillies at ucl.ac.uk Sat Feb 1 17:01:19 2014 From: d.gillies at ucl.ac.uk (David Gillies) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 16:01:19 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: I agree completely with Michael, I haven't been able to attend since the Birmingham conferences either due to the expense involved. David On 1 February 2014 11:59, Michael wrote: > 400? > > Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was > ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). > > Unless when you say 'all inclusive' you mean 'including accommodation'. > > I presume the increased costs are at least in part due to the slow shift > towards peak holiday season. > > (I haven't been since Birmingham due to the massively increase cosy of > sending. For those who don't remember/know, when Euro python was in the UK I > organised the recording and transcoding of talks, on a shoe string) > > Saying it's 'comparable to other conferences' it's pointless btw, the reason > (in part at least as I understood it) Euro python existed was to have an > affordable alternative. > > Michael. > > On 31 Jan 2014 19:05, "Andreas Jung" wrote: >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> >> >> Jacob Hall?n wrote: >> >> > >> > In the Call for Participation that was the basis for the selection of >> > a new site for Europython, there was a requirement for the cost of >> > attendance. It turns out that the promised figures from the Berlin >> > team can't be met and that cost of attendance will take a serious >> > jump, compared to Florence. >> > >> > This is a serious problem for the EPS, because our explicit goal is >> > to arrange a really affordable conference. We are now looking at >> > conference fees that are 5 times higher than the ones for G?teborg >> > and it is starting to hurt. Worries about getting enough participants >> > and getting a reasonable mix of people has gotten the EPS board more >> > involved in pricing issues than they would like to be. This is not >> > only a concern for the conference this year, but for future >> > conferences. A large number of the attendees have come to EuroPython >> > for many years. If they are scared off by the price this year, they >> > are less likely to come back in the future. >> > >> >> With respect but this is FUD. >> >> The standard ticket price for EP 2013 were for >> Student/Individual/Business: >> 330 ? / 500 ? / 620 ? >> >> The standard EP 2014 rates are for Student/Individual/Business: >> >> 200 ? / 400 ? / 600 ? >> >> Keep in mind that all EP 2014 tickets are all-inclusive (social event, >> catering during the sprints etc.) >> >> Andreas >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ >> >> iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS6/PIAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjLcELwM0a9Fe4fLkA+mULWdLfKvP9 >> HHHLVH99/hs/Pe4ZHAmcUF2rc6T3lyLdAC/XK3EzTl+ppEGdbXlab+oPrN6VfjHv >> GnUVvt7TKYfCI4cw9FkgqF1wXrqdcRVT0MXu1fecKUxKst+zQ54XaI+wY8MGhDww >> dC1KA5YTYZODSO3l+WFxpMblxSTeyegutSaPV7XdoxxSq5bhLhnEEj6Ev9uAxql9 >> Dg87vOpTWe6DU/g/0A3tsaJCduwvOVwYyHBPBPuOYts7zYrVv0QYDdNXi7Jw8Gl4 >> HVFd2Xb4IBPWYpeUmL1QeFj+o652aE0kIpNAIxHVi856HhyCKwBGqzpqRo/5YOcI >> C9K6kg6kacINgiwsNSulm2sa0JLM/AsiWMd5ZFgqnaJAi3mpRcaN+dZ00zMPuvax >> Bhmv3ea1FJubFfu9XQWYJug4R7yEs8zwd9IDikSaQb94v68rDqZ+61SZ2W+Mk+eQ >> V+P0egepnsnqRp9dnuRAFN9J7gySQmA= >> =yuc7 >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> EuroPython 2014 - Berlin, 21th-27th July >> >> EuroPython mailing list >> EuroPython at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 - Berlin, 21th-27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am participating in UCU industrial action by "working to contract" to defend my pay: http://www.ucu.org.uk/hepay13 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jacob at openend.se Sat Feb 1 17:49:01 2014 From: jacob at openend.se (Jacob =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 17:49:01 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <52ED1C7B.3000407@zopyx.com> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52ED1C7B.3000407@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <9802060.NnQFZhjq1D@sangiovese> I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. I think the most interesting people to meet at the conferences in general have a limited budget. The come to the conference on their own tab to tell the world about the cool things they are doing in their spare time. We used to be able to pay travel for speakers coming from South America and the Far East. I see this as far more important than having as many attendees as possible. Jacob l?rdagen den 1 februari 2014 17.10.35 skrev Andreas Jung: > David Gillies wrote: > > I agree completely with Michael, I haven't been able to attend since > > the Birmingham conferences either due to the expense involved. > > I think it is the common process of conferences become more expensive as > soon as they become larger and more popular. You need a complete > different approach to logistics when you deal with up to a thousand > people or deal only with small crowd of perhaps 100 to 150 people. > I am not in charge for the EP 2014 financial part but it is obvious that > you can not organize a conference for the same costs per persons > if you deal with 100 attendees or 1000 attendees. More people, more > different aspects to be considered, higher costs...I think there is no > real way out of there - expect all 1000 attendees in a huge barn and > tell them to bring their own beer and burgers..well, perhaps an option :-) > > Andreas From europython at wodca.de Sat Feb 1 18:10:56 2014 From: europython at wodca.de (Achim Herwig) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 18:10:56 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <201402011742.45810.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52ED1C7B.3000407@zopyx.com> <201402011742.45810.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <4799311.mBNglvdMrL@juma> Am Samstag, 1. Februar 2014, 17:42:45 schrieb Paul Boddie: > On Saturday 1. February 2014 17.10.35 Andreas Jung wrote: > > I think there is no real way out of there - expect all 1000 attendees in > > a > > huge barn and tell them to bring their own beer and burgers..well, perhaps > > an option :-) > > Switch out the burgers with sausages and I was led to believe that this > happens every October in Munich, although I'm not sure everyone involved > will be happy when they're told that they have to learn Python. ;-) I guess the price development of EuroPython attendance is quite below that of beer in October in Munich. This site has some nice stats - not about Python, though: http://qz.com/125940/the-more-expensive-oktoberfest-beer-gets-to-more-beer-oktoberfest-goers-drink/ Cheers from Munich, Achim. -- Achim Herwig -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From hs at ox.cx Sat Feb 1 19:15:54 2014 From: hs at ox.cx (Hynek Schlawack) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 19:15:54 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <9802060.NnQFZhjq1D@sangiovese> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52ED1C7B.3000407@zopyx.com> <9802060.NnQFZhjq1D@sangiovese> Message-ID: > I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the *only* explicitly European Python conference. Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist. EP is one of the cheapest conferences I?ve attended so far (only beaten by RuPy 2012 which is much shorter and took place at an University in a cheap country). Comparing prices from now and *seven* years ago is neither fair nor reasonable. The same goes for attendance numbers: the Python community in 2014 is very different from the one in 2008. I very much prefer the current approach of growing and giving out grants to people who can?t afford attending on their own than denying the EP?experience to hundreds of people completely. > I think the most interesting people to meet at the conferences in > general have > a limited budget. The come to the conference on their own tab to tell > the > world about the cool things they are doing in their spare time. I don?t believe such a correlation ? or even causality! ? exists. If you find their talks more interesting, it falls under ?personal preferences? for which it?s important to have a diverse schedule. That said, grants can make sure that such interesting people are able to attend anyway. > We used to be able to pay travel for speakers coming from South > America and > the Far East. I see this as far more important than having as many > attendees > as possible. I can?t follow this reasoning. I always saw EP as Europe?s premier get-together of Python devotees that was interesting enough to attract a significant crowd from outside. Optimizing a conference called ?*Euro*Python? for South American attendees seems rather backward to me (again: grants). *** The EPS will have to decide whether they just want to be a cheap get-together for a small cabal or Europe?s answer to PyCon US/NA. If it?s the former, I can only hope an alternative will form from within the organizers of the past years. We have enough cheap and small conferences; the hard task is to run a big one in a proper way without ripping people off O?Reilly-style. ?h P.S. I?m not affiliated with anyone involved in this discussion, this is just my 2 cents as someone who attended all three EPs in Florence as well as other ? cheap ? conferences. From luecks at gmail.com Sat Feb 1 19:23:48 2014 From: luecks at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Stefanie_L=FCck?=) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 19:23:48 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Pricing (was Re: Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started) In-Reply-To: <201402011448.59891.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> <52EC9C47.1040603@zopyx.com> <201402011448.59891.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: I think it is difficult to fit all needs and wishes (quantity, quality and costs). One major advantage of the PyConDE for me was, that the tutorials and talks were on different days. Because of this, I did not spent to many holidays and the costs for accommodation was much lower. Perhaps you might think and discuss this for future conferences. Furthermore it could be convenient if the program start and end about lunch time. People could save two nights at a hotel, if they live not to far away. You can't be everybody's darling. Nevertheless I hope that we will have a great conference. Thanks to everybody who is working so hard, you do a great job! Have a nice evening and hopefully see you there! Stefanie 2014-02-01 Paul Boddie : > On Saturday 1. February 2014 08.03.35 Andreas wrote: > > Paul Boddie wrote: > > > > > > Back in 2007, the exceptional conference was RuPy which offered > > > incredibly cheap rates for students, and I think we were all aware > > > that EuroPython was going to look expensive in comparison and might > > > end up being too expensive for the regional audience, particularly > > > students, but there was no chance that EuroPython could discount > > > rates aggressively to "compete" with RuPy. And of course, no-one was > > > really competing with anyone else, anyway. > > > > You can not directly compare RuPy 2007 with EP 2014. I was speaker at > > the first RuPy in Poznan and there is a certain difference in size, > > location, length of conference etc. - so do not let use compare apples > > with pears. > > For the record, I wasn't comparing RuPy 2007 with this year's conference. I > was just saying that back in 2007, when hosting a conference in what might > be > regarded as broadly the same region as RuPy, and trying to appeal to the > same > audience, some people might have decided that the base price was more > attractive for RuPy and that they'd go there instead. > > > Also keep in mind that the costs of conference visit also include costs > > for traveling and accommodation. Travelling to Florence appears more > > expensive then getting to Berlin. I payed between 250 and 300 EUR over > > the last years for the flights from Stuttgart to Florence. You can > > get to Berlin within Europe likely with half the money. So the > > conference fee is only one part of the overall personal price for a > > conference. > > Yes, I think most people are aware of this. Again, back in 2007 (from > which I > sampled the figures), many people would have been travelling to EuroPython > by > air from western and central parts of Europe because, if I remember > correctly, > the rail options were rather inconvenient, and so the lower cost options > that > people might have chosen (to go to RuPy in Pozna?, say, although I wouldn't > know) weren't available. > > > Also every town and conference location has a different cost structure. > > Yes, that's why you don't have people hurrying to have these events in > Norway. > > > In addition to that: there will be a financial assistance program for > > people needing financial support getting to EP 2014. > > Great! By the way, I wasn't criticising anyone, but just trying to remind > people of the historic pricing and what considerations existed about such > matters at the time, especially since there seemed to be some confusion > about > what the pricing actually was. > > Paul > > P.S. I can go into more detail about where people came from to go to > EuroPython in Geneva, Vilnius or Birmingham, if people are sincerely > interested in that, but I don't think I need to labour the point, really. > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul at boddie.org.uk Sat Feb 1 20:36:19 2014 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 20:36:19 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <9802060.NnQFZhjq1D@sangiovese> Message-ID: <201402012036.20236.paul@boddie.org.uk> On Saturday 1. February 2014 19.15.54 Hynek Schlawack wrote: > > I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. > > I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the *only* > explicitly European Python conference. That just isn't true. Take a look at http://www.pycon.org/ to see several European Python conferences. On this point you *can* compare the situation to that of seven or more years ago, or perhaps as far back as the first EuroPython conference (which is before my time), because back then it wasn't certain that there was enough interest in a Python conference in many places. Now, you have around ten general Python conferences and a bunch of specialised Python conferences merely in Europe and not including EuroPython. > Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting or > simply elitist. There are plenty of options when it comes to attending small conferences. If people pitch EuroPython as the "premier" conference that people aspire to go to, and then the attendance is capped, then perhaps claims of elitism are valid. What I find refreshing, however, is that despite the promotion of large conferences like PyCon as being "the one to go to", there appears to be a vibrant emerging scene of alternatives. And I sincerely doubt that smaller conferences are less interesting. I would consider going to a number of them if I weren't so lazy. PyCon UK and PyCon Italia are both apparently very good. PyCon DE also seems very solid. If I wanted to confine myself to the Nordic countries, PyCon Finland has looked like an interesting excuse for an excursion eastward, and apparently there's a Swedish conference in the pipeline. The last conference I went to was FSCONS in Sweden (in 2012), which isn't Python-specific but covers other interests of mine, and it was worth going to. > EP is one of the cheapest conferences I?ve attended so far (only > beaten by RuPy 2012 which is much shorter and took place at an > University in a cheap country). Comparing prices from now and *seven* > years ago is neither fair nor reasonable. The same goes for attendance > numbers: the Python community in 2014 is very different from the one in > 2008. It certainly is different: there are more interested people and, as a consequence, there are more conferences to choose from. > I very much prefer the current approach of growing and giving out grants > to people who can?t afford attending on their own than denying the > EP?experience to hundreds of people completely. I think it's useful to discuss what the "EP-experience" is. Is it a thousand- plus people in a "bet the farm" mega-event or is it something smaller and more manageable? Is it a once a year thing or should there be many events throughout the year? Is it an "eyes forward" conventional conference or an unconference? Does it even matter if it's called EuroPython? [...] > The EPS will have to decide whether they just want to be a cheap > get-together for a small cabal or Europe?s answer to PyCon US/NA. If > it?s the former, I can only hope an alternative will form from within > the organizers of the past years. It's not a purely a choice between a PyCon mega-event and an elitist get- together, as I've noted above. Indeed, Europe has once again shown the way with regard to establishing community conferences that most probably provide the necessary capacity for those wanting to attend a conference, whatever their preferences are. > We have enough cheap and small conferences; the hard task is to run a big > one in a proper way without ripping people off O?Reilly-style. I thought you said there weren't any other European Python conferences. ;-) The unfortunate thing about big conferences, however, is that they cost a lot of money to put on, and you'll be leaning even more on a lot of volunteers to keep the prices down. There are, of course, big European community conferences that seem to manage this, and maybe their expertise can be drawn upon to do the same for a Python-specific event. If you're interested in running a big conference and doing so without ripping people off, I'm sure people would welcome your involvement. But as I'm sure you know already, large conference or small conference, you'll be investing a fair amount of your own time just to keep the costs down and to make it all happen. Paul From mail at dbrgn.ch Sat Feb 1 20:38:07 2014 From: mail at dbrgn.ch (Danilo) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 20:38:07 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <201402012036.20236.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <9802060.NnQFZhjq1D@sangiovese> <201402012036.20236.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <1391283487.22355.78113593.6F0BFB22@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi all Am Sa, 1. Feb 2014, um 20:36, schrieb Paul Boddie: > There are, of course, big European community > conferences that seem to manage this, and maybe > their expertise can be drawn upon to > do the same for a Python-specific event. The 30th Chaos Communication Congress in Hamburg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress) cost 80? for a regular ticket and 350? for a business ticket, for a conference that took 4 days and had more than 9000 attendants. It had everything a conference needs: Crazy fast internet (100Gb/s up/down), recordings of all talks, catering, multiple tracks with talks etc... So it's definitely possible. On the other hand, there were more than 1000 volunteers that helped to run the conference. I think when focusing on creating a community-centered conference and actively encouraging volunteers, it is definitely possible to create a conference that is both big, professional and very affordable. Cheers, Danilo From hs at ox.cx Sat Feb 1 21:24:02 2014 From: hs at ox.cx (Hynek Schlawack) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:24:02 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <201402012036.20236.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <9802060.NnQFZhjq1D@sangiovese> <201402012036.20236.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <45E50292-113C-4621-9761-212BCB2A66B9@ox.cx> On 1 Feb 2014, at 20:36, Paul Boddie wrote: >>> I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. >> I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the *only* >> explicitly European Python conference. > That just isn't true. Take a look at http://www.pycon.org/ to see > several > European Python conferences. Please point them out to me, I see only EuroSciPy and regional ones. > On this point you *can* compare the situation to that of seven or more > years > ago, or perhaps as far back as the first EuroPython conference (which > is > before my time), because back then it wasn't certain that there was > enough > interest in a Python conference in many places. Now, you have around > ten > general Python conferences and a bunch of specialised Python > conferences > merely in Europe and not including EuroPython. Yeah that?s the point, isn?t it? We *do* have smaller regional ones; but I see the demand for a big pan-European one. >> Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting >> or >> simply elitist. > There are plenty of options when it comes to attending small > conferences. Exactly! So why should EuroPython become artificially another one? > If > people pitch EuroPython as the "premier" conference that people aspire > to go > to, and then the attendance is capped, then perhaps claims of elitism > are > valid. What I find refreshing, however, is that despite the promotion > of large > conferences like PyCon as being "the one to go to", there appears to > be a > vibrant emerging scene of alternatives. There is, and that?s exactly my point: we *do* have small conferences (and they are getting more). > And I sincerely doubt that smaller conferences are less interesting. I didn?t say that, did I? > I would > consider going to a number of them if I weren't so lazy. PyCon UK and > PyCon > Italia are both apparently very good. PyCon DE also seems very solid. This is interesting because PyCon DE was way more expensive in the past years than EP. >> EP is one of the cheapest conferences I?ve attended so far (only >> beaten by RuPy 2012 which is much shorter and took place at an >> University in a cheap country). Comparing prices from now and >> *seven* >> years ago is neither fair nor reasonable. The same goes for >> attendance >> numbers: the Python community in 2014 is very different from the one >> in >> 2008. > It certainly is different: there are more interested people and, as a > consequence, there are more conferences to choose from. Exactly. That?s why we need at least one big conference in Europe. >> I very much prefer the current approach of growing and giving out >> grants >> to people who can?t afford attending on their own than denying the >> EP?experience to hundreds of people completely. > I think it's useful to discuss what the "EP-experience" is. Is it a > thousand- > plus people in a "bet the farm" mega-event or is it something smaller > and more > manageable? Is it a once a year thing or should there be many events > throughout the year? Is it an "eyes forward" conventional conference > or an > unconference? Does it even matter if it's called EuroPython? If a conference is called ?EuroPython?, I certainly expect something different than from a regional one. For example, that most of the schedule is in English. See it that way: for me and many others conferences are mostly about people. If I have to attend three conferences instead of one to meet all my Internet friends, it gets more expensive very fast. And big confs also attract our friends from overseas, it?s very nice to see them more than once a year. >> The EPS will have to decide whether they just want to be a cheap >> get-together for a small cabal or Europe?s answer to PyCon US/NA. >> If >> it?s the former, I can only hope an alternative will form from >> within >> the organizers of the past years. > It's not a purely a choice between a PyCon mega-event and an elitist > get- > together, as I've noted above. Indeed, Europe has once again shown the > way > with regard to establishing community conferences that most probably > provide > the necessary capacity for those wanting to attend a conference, > whatever > their preferences are. It certainly is for a particular conference (EP in this case). Nobody is arguing that *every* conference should aspire to grow like PyCon US. But I?m going to argue that downsizing an established conference is a waste and the wrong step. >> We have enough cheap and small conferences; the hard task is to run a >> big >> one in a proper way without ripping people off O?Reilly-style. > I thought you said there weren't any other European Python > conferences. ;-) I wrote ?explicitly European Python?. RuPy is about Ruby and JS, the rest is regional or sciency. > The unfortunate thing about big conferences, however, is that they > cost a lot > of money to put on, and you'll be leaning even more on a lot of > volunteers to > keep the prices down. There are, of course, big European community > conferences > that seem to manage this, and maybe their expertise can be drawn upon > to do > the same for a Python-specific event. It all goes down to exploiting volunteers. > If you're interested in running a big conference and doing so without > ripping > people off, I'm sure people would welcome your involvement. But as I'm > sure > you know already, large conference or small conference, you'll be > investing a > fair amount of your own time just to keep the costs down and to make > it all > happen. I?m not sure what you?re arguing for or against; because you?re basically just validating what I was saying? There have been claims that we should cap the size in the future so we get cheaper so everybody can attend financially (but not realistically because of the artificial limit). I was arguing against that. Neither did I say that small conferences are without merit, nor did I voice disapproval with the organizers of EP14. All I?m saying is that there is a need for a big European conference and it would be sad if EP threw away its reputation it built in Florence and tried to become a small conference with a big name. ?h From paul at boddie.org.uk Sat Feb 1 21:42:54 2014 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 21:42:54 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <1391283487.22355.78113593.6F0BFB22@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201402012036.20236.paul@boddie.org.uk> <1391283487.22355.78113593.6F0BFB22@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <201402012142.55102.paul@boddie.org.uk> On Saturday 1. February 2014 20.38.07 Danilo wrote: > > Am Sa, 1. Feb 2014, um 20:36, schrieb Paul Boddie: > > There are, of course, big European community > > conferences that seem to manage this, and maybe > > their expertise can be drawn upon to > > do the same for a Python-specific event. > > The 30th Chaos Communication Congress in Hamburg > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress) cost 80? > for a regular ticket and 350? for a business ticket, for a conference > that took 4 days and had more than 9000 attendants. It had everything a > conference needs: Crazy fast internet (100Gb/s up/down), recordings of > all talks, catering, multiple tracks with talks etc... So it's > definitely possible. There's also FOSDEM this very weekend, although I'm not sure how the profile of FOSDEM compares with CCC or with other events. > On the other hand, there were more than 1000 volunteers that helped to > run the conference. I think when focusing on creating a > community-centered conference and actively encouraging volunteers, it is > definitely possible to create a conference that is both big, > professional and very affordable. I completely agree with you, and the example you provide was one of the events I was thinking of. But nobody should be under any illusion that this kind of thing is going to happen without a lot of effort. (I guess the "30th" is a good indication of that.) And I still think people should ask themselves whether an event on that scale is really the kind of event they would like to go to. Paul From funthyme at gmail.com Sat Feb 1 22:52:56 2014 From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 21:52:56 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <4799311.mBNglvdMrL@juma> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52ED1C7B.3000407@zopyx.com> <201402011742.45810.paul@boddie.org.uk> <4799311.mBNglvdMrL@juma> Message-ID: Hello, On 1 February 2014 17:10, Achim Herwig wrote: > Am Samstag, 1. Februar 2014, 17:42:45 schrieb Paul Boddie: >> On Saturday 1. February 2014 17.10.35 Andreas Jung wrote: >> > I think there is no real way out of there - expect all 1000 attendees in >> > a >> > huge barn and tell them to bring their own beer and burgers..well, perhaps >> > an option :-) >> >> Switch out the burgers with sausages and I was led to believe that this >> happens every October in Munich, although I'm not sure everyone involved >> will be happy when they're told that they have to learn Python. ;-) > > I guess the price development of EuroPython attendance is quite below that of > beer in October in Munich. > > This site has some nice stats - not about Python, though: > > http://qz.com/125940/the-more-expensive-oktoberfest-beer-gets-to-more-beer-oktoberfest-goers-drink/ Thnaks for this, Achim, it's good to know that, outside Octoberfest, German beer prices have remained stable. If I can be assured of getting Maisels Weisbier mit Hefe, and Sclenkerla Rauchbier in Berlin near the conference venue, I'll consider the 2014 EuroPython fees reasonable ;-) John -- From paul at boddie.org.uk Sat Feb 1 23:43:42 2014 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 23:43:42 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <45E50292-113C-4621-9761-212BCB2A66B9@ox.cx> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201402012036.20236.paul@boddie.org.uk> <45E50292-113C-4621-9761-212BCB2A66B9@ox.cx> Message-ID: <201402012343.42381.paul@boddie.org.uk> On Saturday 1. February 2014 21.24.02 Hynek Schlawack wrote: > On 1 Feb 2014, at 20:36, Paul Boddie wrote: > >>> I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. > >> > >> I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the *only* > >> explicitly European Python conference. > > > > That just isn't true. Take a look at http://www.pycon.org/ to see > > several > > European Python conferences. > > Please point them out to me, I see only EuroSciPy and regional ones. OK, you meant pan-European conferences or conferences trying to attract people from other countries. That said, people go to PyCon UK from other countries, and although it is obviously convenient for UK-based people, I don't think it is trying to be specifically UK-oriented. The same goes for many of the others, I imagine. PyCon Finland, for example, seems to have a lot of English on its site and in its schedule for a "regional" conference. (I can tell you that as far as I know, EuroPython 2009 in the UK actually had almost half of its attendees coming from the UK. Maybe that's the lower bound on UK attendance that you get by applying "Euro" to something and that it's more like 80% UK attendees for PyCon UK, but I don't really think the events are any different just because of the name.) > > On this point you *can* compare the situation to that of seven or more > > years ago, or perhaps as far back as the first EuroPython conference > > (which is before my time), because back then it wasn't certain that there > > was enough interest in a Python conference in many places. Now, you have > > around ten general Python conferences and a bunch of specialised Python > > conferences merely in Europe and not including EuroPython. > > Yeah that?s the point, isn?t it? We *do* have smaller regional > ones; but I see the demand for a big pan-European one. OK, maybe there's nothing really to discuss, then. People can go to a smaller conference and probably pay less, or they can go to a bigger one and potentially pay more. > >> Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting > >> or simply elitist. > > > > There are plenty of options when it comes to attending small > > conferences. > > Exactly! > > So why should EuroPython become artificially another one? For the record, EuroPython was quite small to start with, which shouldn't be a huge surprise because that's often how things start out. From what I can dig up [*], it had about 250 people in 2002/2003, went up gradually to about 280 in 2006, was around 220 in 2007/2008, and then shot up to around 450 in 2009. You can see how large PyCon was over the years as well [**]. So, it was only around 2008 that these conferences started to grow more than what you can regard as "organically". [*] https://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2007 [**] https://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon/Attendance [...] > There is, and that?s exactly my point: we *do* have small conferences > (and they are getting more). > > > And I sincerely doubt that smaller conferences are less interesting. > > I didn?t say that, did I? Well, I'm not sure what you were trying to say. You did say this: "Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist." > > I would consider going to a number of them if I weren't so lazy. PyCon UK > > and PyCon Italia are both apparently very good. PyCon DE also seems very > > solid. > > This is interesting because PyCon DE was way more expensive in the past > years than EP. OK, but I didn't say anything about price, other than that some people care a lot about the price. So maybe PyCon DE wasn't for them. [...] > > I think it's useful to discuss what the "EP-experience" is. Is it a > > thousand-plus people in a "bet the farm" mega-event or is it something > > smaller and more manageable? Is it a once a year thing or should there be > > many events throughout the year? Is it an "eyes forward" conventional > > conference or an unconference? Does it even matter if it's called > > EuroPython? > > If a conference is called ?EuroPython?, I certainly expect something > different than from a regional one. For example, that most of the > schedule is in English. This is the case for quite a few of them. Maybe not all of them, but I get your point. > See it that way: for me and many others conferences are mostly about > people. If I have to attend three conferences instead of one to meet > all my Internet friends, it gets more expensive very fast. And big > confs also attract our friends from overseas, it?s very nice to see > them more than once a year. Well, that's great, and it's good to know that you get so much out of these events. I admit that people suggested FOSDEM to me as a venue to catch up, although FSCONS - a much smaller event - served a similar purpose for me in the past. I guess it can also depend on how specific the event is and how you know those people, and I guess it's hard if what you have in common with them is quite general and not confined to a fairly narrow interest (so they can't all be tempted into going to a smaller, perhaps cheaper, conference). > > It's not a purely a choice between a PyCon mega-event and an elitist > > get-together, as I've noted above. Indeed, Europe has once again shown the > > way with regard to establishing community conferences that most probably > > provide the necessary capacity for those wanting to attend a conference, > > whatever their preferences are. > > It certainly is for a particular conference (EP in this case). Nobody > is arguing that *every* conference should aspire to grow like PyCon US. > But I?m going to argue that downsizing an established conference is a > waste and the wrong step. I haven't followed EuroPython over the last three years, so I cannot comment on how many people were there, but if we're at a thousand people now then this is effectively PyCon-style growth (maybe not quite as aggressive given that they're at 2000 people now, I think). Perhaps the emergence of what you call "regional" conferences is a response to that. I'd be really interested in knowing whether former EuroPython organisers would be interested in running the conference again either at the level it was at when they ran it or at its current level. I can well imagine that many people just don't want the hassle of stepping up to the larger venues, where the stakes can be quite a bit higher (just ask the PSF), and the need to find people willing to run such events is precisely the problem that the EuroPython Society seems to have walked into. [...] > > If you're interested in running a big conference and doing so without > > ripping people off, I'm sure people would welcome your involvement. But as > > I'm sure you know already, large conference or small conference, you'll be > > investing a fair amount of your own time just to keep the costs down and > > to make it all happen. > > I?m not sure what you?re arguing for or against; because you?re > basically just validating what I was saying? No, I was just saying that you seem to be exactly the kind of person the EuroPython Society is looking for to organise the kind of large-scale event that you'd like to see in Europe that is neither "regional" nor "sciency". > There have been claims that we should cap the size in the future so we > get cheaper so everybody can attend financially (but not realistically > because of the artificial limit). I was arguing against that. Neither > did I say that small conferences are without merit, nor did I voice > disapproval with the organizers of EP14. All I?m saying is that there > is a need for a big European conference and it would be sad if EP threw > away its reputation it built in Florence and tried to become a small > conference with a big name. Well, fair enough. I was just pointing out that EuroPython was not traditionally this big - however big it actually is now - and that there are practical constraints that mean that people do sensibly suggest a limit on the number of people who can go. Ultimately, it comes down to whether you can find a bunch of organisers who will take on handling a large number of conference attendees at a venue that may very well be beyond the budget and levels of risk that they are used to, and where the scale of the facility may automatically take them into "premium" territory, depending on where and how well-connected they are. Perhaps it would be sad to downsize EuroPython, but unless you have people willing to take the conference on at the scale you prefer - and they do have valid reasons to be wary of doing so - then there may be no other choice. That's all I'm saying. Paul From funthyme at gmail.com Sat Feb 1 23:54:31 2014 From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 22:54:31 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <201402012343.42381.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201402012036.20236.paul@boddie.org.uk> <45E50292-113C-4621-9761-212BCB2A66B9@ox.cx> <201402012343.42381.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: Hello, On 1 February 2014 22:43, Paul Boddie wrote: > On Saturday 1. February 2014 21.24.02 Hynek Schlawack wrote: >> On 1 Feb 2014, at 20:36, Paul Boddie wrote: >> It certainly is for a particular conference (EP in this case). Nobody >> is arguing that *every* conference should aspire to grow like PyCon US. >> But I?m going to argue that downsizing an established conference is a >> waste and the wrong step. > > I haven't followed EuroPython over the last three years, so I cannot comment > on how many people were there, but if we're at a thousand people now then this > is effectively PyCon-style growth (maybe not quite as aggressive given that > they're at 2000 people now, I think). Perhaps the emergence of what you call > "regional" conferences is a response to that. > > I'd be really interested in knowing whether former EuroPython organisers would > be interested in running the conference again either at the level it was at > when they ran it or at its current level. Speaking for myself, and my fellow PyCon UK/EuroPython 2009/2010 organisers, we 've discussed this and the answer would be "No". I think that EuroPython 2010, at about 450, was as big as any one of us would wish, and it was hard enough work. Anything bigger gets to be beyond reason. If we were to run an event with, say, 1000 delegates we would need to use a venue such as the International Convention Centre, and this would come at a high cost with attendant risks. At the venue we use now, we could manage up to 650, but teh thought of herding that many cats is horrrific... > I can well imagine that many people > just don't want the hassle of stepping up to the larger venues, where the > stakes can be quite a bit higher (just ask the PSF), and the need to find > people willing to run such events is precisely the problem that the EuroPython > Society seems to have walked into. > > [...] > >> > If you're interested in running a big conference and doing so without >> > ripping people off, I'm sure people would welcome your involvement. But as >> > I'm sure you know already, large conference or small conference, you'll be >> > investing a fair amount of your own time just to keep the costs down and >> > to make it all happen. >> >> I?m not sure what you?re arguing for or against; because you?re >> basically just validating what I was saying? > > No, I was just saying that you seem to be exactly the kind of person the > EuroPython Society is looking for to organise the kind of large-scale event > that you'd like to see in Europe that is neither "regional" nor "sciency". The classic Free Software mantra : if you don't like it, fix it, less politely p*ss or get off the pot ;-) >> There have been claims that we should cap the size in the future so we >> get cheaper so everybody can attend financially (but not realistically >> because of the artificial limit). I was arguing against that. Neither >> did I say that small conferences are without merit, nor did I voice >> disapproval with the organizers of EP14. All I?m saying is that there >> is a need for a big European conference and it would be sad if EP threw >> away its reputation it built in Florence EuroPython has not been held in Firenze alone. >> and tried to become a small >> conference with a big name. > > Well, fair enough. I was just pointing out that EuroPython was not > traditionally this big - however big it actually is now - and that there are > practical constraints that mean that people do sensibly suggest a limit on the > number of people who can go. > > Ultimately, it comes down to whether you can find a bunch of organisers who > will take on handling a large number of conference attendees at a venue that > may very well be beyond the budget and levels of risk that they are used to, > and where the scale of the facility may automatically take them into "premium" > territory, depending on where and how well-connected they are. Exactly. > Perhaps it would be sad to downsize EuroPython, but unless you have people > willing to take the conference on at the scale you prefer - and they do have > valid reasons to be wary of doing so - then there may be no other choice. > That's all I'm saying. Agreed. Best wishes, John -- From hs at ox.cx Sun Feb 2 00:39:15 2014 From: hs at ox.cx (Hynek Schlawack) Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2014 00:39:15 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201402012036.20236.paul@boddie.org.uk> <45E50292-113C-4621-9761-212BCB2A66B9@ox.cx> <201402012343.42381.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <28E0B605-7CC4-4434-8EEC-8515D825CDBE@ox.cx> >> No, I was just saying that you seem to be exactly the kind of person >> the >> EuroPython Society is looking for to organise the kind of large-scale >> event >> that you'd like to see in Europe that is neither "regional" nor >> "sciency". > The classic Free Software mantra : if you don't like it, fix it, less > politely p*ss or get off the pot ;-) I?m neither complaining about anything nor telling people who actually do something to do things differently so I?m not sure how that mantra applies here. >>> There have been claims that we should cap the size in the future so >>> we >>> get cheaper so everybody can attend financially (but not >>> realistically >>> because of the artificial limit). I was arguing against that. >>> Neither >>> did I say that small conferences are without merit, nor did I voice >>> disapproval with the organizers of EP14. All I?m saying is that >>> there >>> is a need for a big European conference and it would be sad if EP >>> threw >>> away its reputation it built in Florence > EuroPython has not been held in Firenze alone. EP?s *current* reputation certainly has been mostly influenced by the last three years. People?s memories work like that, whether you like it or not. Most folks I?ve met there didn?t even know where it happened before. >> Ultimately, it comes down to whether you can find a bunch of >> organisers who >> will take on handling a large number of conference attendees at a >> venue that >> may very well be beyond the budget and levels of risk that they are >> used to, >> and where the scale of the facility may automatically take them into >> "premium" >> territory, depending on where and how well-connected they are. > Exactly. That?s fascinating opinions, but that wasn?t the discussion *I* was having. It?s quite the contrary: the current organizers were criticized for their current work they do and I tried to explain that romanticism about a conference in 2007 isn?t helping, that it?s great to have at least one big European Python conference, they are hard to do, and to the end: let them do their thing. But apparently it changed into ?organizing big conferences is hard, you should do it if you like them so much because it?s hard to find organizers? without anybody telling me. >> Perhaps it would be sad to downsize EuroPython, but unless you have >> people >> willing to take the conference on at the scale you prefer - and they >> do have >> valid reasons to be wary of doing so - then there may be no other >> choice. >> That's all I'm saying. > Agreed. Same as above. Let me be crystal clear here: I don?t feel entitled to big EuroPythons. I am thankful of *any* volunteer work that gets done. But that?s very different from intentionally asking for ? or even mandating ? a downsize. And that?s all I was arguing about. ?h From paul at boddie.org.uk Sun Feb 2 01:29:27 2014 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2014 01:29:27 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <28E0B605-7CC4-4434-8EEC-8515D825CDBE@ox.cx> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <28E0B605-7CC4-4434-8EEC-8515D825CDBE@ox.cx> Message-ID: <201402020129.27743.paul@boddie.org.uk> On Sunday 2. February 2014 00.39.15 Hynek Schlawack wrote: > > It?s quite the contrary: the current organizers were criticized for > their current work they do and I tried to explain that romanticism about > a conference in 2007 isn?t helping, that it?s great to have at least > one big European Python conference, they are hard to do, and to the end: > let them do their thing. I'm not criticising the current organisers. In fact, I don't think anyone is, not even the apparently malign EuroPython Society. Any mention of 2007 is just to provide historical context. You can paint that as "romanticism" or nostalgia or whatever, but since the people involved actually organised it before and actually run events now in various cases, and since one might consider them candidates for running the conference in future, I think it's worth listening to what they have to say about it. > But apparently it changed into ?organizing big conferences is hard, > you should do it if you like them so much because it?s hard to find > organizers? without anybody telling me. Well, if the opinions of the people with experience don't count, or if they do count but only enough for everyone to realise that they're not interested in doing it at the desired scale, maybe we do need to find organisers including those for a passion for seeing a big conference happen. > >> Perhaps it would be sad to downsize EuroPython, but unless you have > >> people willing to take the conference on at the scale you prefer - and > >> they do have valid reasons to be wary of doing so - then there may be no > >> other choice. That's all I'm saying. > > > > Agreed. > > Same as above. Right. We all agree that limiting the number of people who can attend EuroPython might be a practical matter. > Let me be crystal clear here: I don?t feel entitled to big > EuroPythons. I am thankful of *any* volunteer work that gets done. But > that?s very different from intentionally asking for ? or even > mandating ? a downsize. And that?s all I was arguing about. Right. So if we go back to what was actually said... > > I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. > > I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the only > explicitly European Python conference. Keeping it artificially small > just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist. ...maybe we can all just about see that any suggestion of capping attendance might have been motivated by practical considerations. Even this... > > I see this as far more important than having as many attendees as > > possible. ...makes sense from a purely practical perspective. You can't really choose a venue that's big enough for a few hundred and then change it for a bigger one when you realise that your conference is really popular. And if you have to anticipate thousands of people, you have to step into the big league and take a huge gamble by booking a venue that you then really need to fill. If it's a choice between "having as many attendees as possible" (and thus taking big gambles or messing venues around and paying cancellation fees) and accepting that there will be a limit, most people will not take the risks of the former approach. Again, ask the PSF about PyCon 2009 if you don't regard this as a concern. So, I think we can all agree that no-one was being elitist at all, unless elitist means not being willing to lose six-figure sums on planning a community conference. Paul From hs at ox.cx Sun Feb 2 02:09:04 2014 From: hs at ox.cx (Hynek Schlawack) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2014 02:09:04 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <201402020129.27743.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <28E0B605-7CC4-4434-8EEC-8515D825CDBE@ox.cx> <201402020129.27743.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <7F42CCD4-3CAE-47D8-9C22-C0B7A3618ECB@ox.cx> >> It?s quite the contrary: the current organizers were criticized for >> their current work they do and I tried to explain that romanticism about >> a conference in 2007 isn?t helping, that it?s great to have at least >> one big European Python conference, they are hard to do, and to the end: >> let them do their thing. > I'm not criticising the current organisers. FWIW, my original reply didn't go to you either. >> But apparently it changed into ?organizing big conferences is hard, >> you should do it if you like them so much because it?s hard to find >> organizers? without anybody telling me. > Well, if the opinions of the people with experience don't count, or if they do > count but only enough for everyone to realise that they're not interested in > doing it at the desired scale, maybe we do need to find organisers including > those for a passion for seeing a big conference happen. I didn't say they don't count, I'm saying that's a completely different discussion I'm not leading here. >> Let me be crystal clear here: I don?t feel entitled to big >> EuroPythons. I am thankful of *any* volunteer work that gets done. But >> that?s very different from intentionally asking for ? or even >> mandating ? a downsize. And that?s all I was arguing about. > > Right. So if we go back to what was actually said... > >>> I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices. >> >> I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the only >> explicitly European Python conference. Keeping it artificially small >> just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist. > ...maybe we can all just about see that any suggestion of capping attendance > might have been motivated by practical considerations. Even this... That's not what the mail said I was replying to. It was very specific that it was only about affordability of the ticket prices. >>> I see this as far more important than having as many attendees as >>> possible. > ...makes sense from a purely practical perspective. You can't really choose a > venue that's big enough for a few hundred and then change it for a bigger one > when you realise that your conference is really popular. And if you have to > anticipate thousands of people, you have to step into the big league and take > a huge gamble by booking a venue that you then really need to fill. > > If it's a choice between "having as many attendees as possible" (and thus > taking big gambles or messing venues around and paying cancellation fees) and > accepting that there will be a limit, most people will not take the risks of > the former approach. Again, ask the PSF about PyCon 2009 if you don't regard > this as a concern. > > So, I think we can all agree that no-one was being elitist at all, unless > elitist means not being willing to lose six-figure sums on planning a > community conference. Please do me the courtesy and consider my reply in the context of the email I've replied to and stop extending the scope of the discussion. I've never asked anyone to take gambles and never will. The mail *I* replied to said it would be a good thing *for the conference* to get smaller because we could fly in people from South America and those people are more interesting anyway. That are *completely* different concerns from what you're bringing up and I find it highly irritating to be confronted with pot metaphors based on that derailment. Obviously if financial/organizational reasons force us to shrink EP that takes absolutely precedence. But let's not fool ourselves that that would do the conference any favor. From paul at boddie.org.uk Sun Feb 2 15:24:31 2014 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2014 15:24:31 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <7F42CCD4-3CAE-47D8-9C22-C0B7A3618ECB@ox.cx> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201402020129.27743.paul@boddie.org.uk> <7F42CCD4-3CAE-47D8-9C22-C0B7A3618ECB@ox.cx> Message-ID: <201402021524.31521.paul@boddie.org.uk> On Sunday 2. February 2014 02.09.04 Hynek Schlawack wrote: > >> It?s quite the contrary: the current organizers were criticized for > >> their current work they do and I tried to explain that romanticism about > >> a conference in 2007 isn?t helping, that it?s great to have at least > >> one big European Python conference, they are hard to do, and to the end: > >> let them do their thing. > > > > I'm not criticising the current organisers. > > FWIW, my original reply didn't go to you either. Your original reply went to the list. When you presumably did reply directly to me at one point, I got two separate messages: one to me and one via the list. What was that all about? Do we have to wait for two messages from you - one public, one private - to have permission to respond? If you want to criticise people in public for what they have said and to misrepresent their position, you have to accept that other people will have something to say about it. > The mail *I* replied to said it would be a good thing *for the conference* > to get smaller because we could fly in people from South America and those > people are more interesting anyway. Since the record of what people said is public - and yes, I actually quoted your mail in response to Jacob's mail - people can make up their own minds about what was really meant, which I seriously doubt is what you are claiming. > That are *completely* different concerns from what you're bringing up and I > find it highly irritating to be confronted with pot metaphors based on that > derailment. What's a "pot metaphor" here exactly? Why might someone sensibly advocate a limit on attendees without having some kind of "elitist" agenda? Oh, that's right, I already explained why: a $100/person loss on a thousand person conference is pretty convincing; maybe it really does have something to do with that after all. This kind of thing is what irritates me hugely about the so-called Python community and why, as I've explained to a few people before now, I've diverted a lot of my time to other initiatives instead. You have people who have made substantial investments of their own time and resources into establishing something that benefits others, and what you often get in response is sniping about some hidden agenda or how people could have done more or better. It's like the mainstream subculture around Python has made some kind of virtue out of getting people to work for free so that people can pretend to be those people's boss and think they have the right to demand things from them. This pervades the so-called community from top to bottom and in almost every regard. Whereas other initiatives and communities offer appreciation for any contribution, with a "thank you" for having done anything at all, the apparent norm in the Python scene is to tell people that they didn't do enough or that what they did was inferior to what should have been done, or that it wasn't licensed according to "community expectations" (where they get to sell your work in a binary and send you the bug reports), replacing "thank" with another word of choice, in effect. Christian wrote that "ANY organization having volunteers work for them should be extremely humble for having anyone spend their spare time for them." Well, without accusing any organisation of anything, I think the so-called community as a whole should re-evaluate how it treats people who offer their time and resources to benefit everyone else. Paul From hs at ox.cx Sun Feb 2 16:14:28 2014 From: hs at ox.cx (Hynek Schlawack) Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2014 16:14:28 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <201402021524.31521.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201402020129.27743.paul@boddie.org.uk> <7F42CCD4-3CAE-47D8-9C22-C0B7A3618ECB@ox.cx> <201402021524.31521.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <014525AF-048F-48E0-BFD1-C5DE28AED5C3@ox.cx> >>> I'm not criticising the current organisers. >> FWIW, my original reply didn't go to you either. > > Your original reply went to the list. When you presumably did reply > directly > to me at one point, I got two separate messages: one to me and one via > the > list. What was that all about? Do we have to wait for two messages > from you - > one public, one private - to have permission to respond? That was an accident (because this list doesn?t set an Reply-To header) and the mails were identical. > If you want to criticise people in public for what they have said and > to > misrepresent their position, you have to accept that other people will > have > something to say about it. I don?t. I was referring to you saying that *you* are not criticizing the current organizers. My original reply was to an e-mail that clearly did, suggesting measures I don?t agree with for goals I consider wrong. Which I explained why. >> The mail *I* replied to said it would be a good thing *for the >> conference* >> to get smaller because we could fly in people from South America and >> those >> people are more interesting anyway. > Since the record of what people said is public - and yes, I actually > quoted > your mail in response to Jacob's mail - people can make up their own > minds > about what was really meant, which I seriously doubt is what you are > claiming. If Jacob meant meant something else than I understood in https://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2014-February/008275.html he can feel free to correct me. I?d also like to point out that at no point I criticized people, only concrete ideas that were expressed. I won?t let you push me in a mud fight I didn?t start. >> That are *completely* different concerns from what you're bringing up >> and I >> find it highly irritating to be confronted with pot metaphors based >> on that >> derailment. > What's a "pot metaphor" here exactly? I mixed you up with John who replied in the same spirit (https://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2014-February/008285.html). Apologies. > Why might someone sensibly advocate a > limit on attendees without having some kind of "elitist" agenda? Oh, > that's > right, I already explained why: a $100/person loss on a thousand > person > conference is pretty convincing; maybe it really does have something > to do > with that after all. > > This kind of thing is what irritates me hugely about the so-called > Python > community and why, as I've explained to a few people before now, I've > diverted > a lot of my time to other initiatives instead. You have people who > have made > substantial investments of their own time and resources into > establishing > something that benefits others, and what you often get in response is > sniping > about some hidden agenda or how people could have done more or better. > > It's like the mainstream subculture around Python has made some kind > of virtue > out of getting people to work for free so that people can pretend to > be those > people's boss and think they have the right to demand things from > them. This > pervades the so-called community from top to bottom and in almost > every > regard. Whereas other initiatives and communities offer appreciation > for any > contribution, with a "thank you" for having done anything at all, the > apparent > norm in the Python scene is to tell people that they didn't do enough > or that > what they did was inferior to what should have been done, or that it > wasn't > licensed according to "community expectations" (where they get to sell > your > work in a binary and send you the bug reports), replacing "thank" with > another > word of choice, in effect. > > Christian wrote that "ANY organization having volunteers work for them > should > be extremely humble for having anyone spend their spare time for > them." > > Well, without accusing any organisation of anything, I think the > so-called > community as a whole should re-evaluate how it treats people who offer > their > time and resources to benefit everyone else. At this point I can only assume malice from your side since you ? again ? completely ignored what I wrote and just keep bringing up your pet reasons ? whose validity I *never* disputed. That wouldn?t be that bad if you wouldn?t pretend all the time that I?m arguing against them while pushing some own egoistic agenda bare any gratitude. I?m not going to re-iterate my email once more because you apparently don?t want to comprehend the point I was trying to make whatever your personal reasons are. Everyone can just read the archives and make their own picture of this. For reference, my original response that can be found at https://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2014-February/008277.html . Don?t expect any further replies for me, I don?t have time for such kind of unconstructive behavior. From funthyme at gmail.com Sun Feb 2 17:49:45 2014 From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2014 16:49:45 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <201402021524.31521.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201402020129.27743.paul@boddie.org.uk> <7F42CCD4-3CAE-47D8-9C22-C0B7A3618ECB@ox.cx> <201402021524.31521.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: Hello Paul, On 2 February 2014 14:24, Paul Boddie wrote: > On Sunday 2. February 2014 02.09.04 Hynek Schlawack wrote: >> >> It?s quite the contrary: the current organizers were criticized for >> >> their current work they do and I tried to explain that romanticism about >> >> a conference in 2007 isn?t helping, that it?s great to have at least >> >> one big European Python conference, they are hard to do, and to the end: >> >> let them do their thing. >> That are *completely* different concerns from what you're bringing up and I >> find it highly irritating to be confronted with pot metaphors based on that >> derailment. > > What's a "pot metaphor" here exactly? Why might someone sensibly advocate a > limit on attendees without having some kind of "elitist" agenda? Oh, that's > right, I already explained why: a $100/person loss on a thousand person > conference is pretty convincing; maybe it really does have something to do > with that after all. > > This kind of thing is what irritates me hugely about the so-called Python > community and why, as I've explained to a few people before now, I've diverted > a lot of my time to other initiatives instead. You have people who have made > substantial investments of their own time and resources into establishing > something that benefits others, and what you often get in response is sniping > about some hidden agenda or how people could have done more or better. > > It's like the mainstream subculture around Python has made some kind of virtue > out of getting people to work for free so that people can pretend to be those > people's boss and think they have the right to demand things from them. This > pervades the so-called community from top to bottom and in almost every > regard. Whereas other initiatives and communities offer appreciation for any > contribution, with a "thank you" for having done anything at all, the apparent > norm in the Python scene is to tell people that they didn't do enough or that > what they did was inferior to what should have been done, or that it wasn't > licensed according to "community expectations" (where they get to sell your > work in a binary and send you the bug reports), replacing "thank" with another > word of choice, in effect. I'm sorry, Paul, I agree with you on many things, but this is something I don't recognise at all... > > Christian wrote that "ANY organization having volunteers work for them should > be extremely humble for having anyone spend their spare time for them." Yes. > > Well, without accusing any organisation of anything, I think the so-called > community as a whole should re-evaluate how it treats people who offer their > time and resources to benefit everyone else. Yes. And I have no knowledge nor experience of the EPS treating its volunteers badly, which I think was what started this thread : a slightly emotional post from Christian based not on first-hand experience, but on hearsay. Best wishes, John -- From info at zopyx.com Sun Feb 2 17:58:58 2014 From: info at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2014 17:58:58 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201402020129.27743.paul@boddie.org.uk> <7F42CCD4-3CAE-47D8-9C22-C0B7A3618ECB@ox.cx> <201402021524.31521.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <52EE7952.5080505@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Pinner wrote: >> Well, without accusing any organisation of anything, I think the >> so-called community as a whole should re-evaluate how it treats >> people who offer their time and resources to benefit everyone >> else. > > Yes. And I have no knowledge nor experience of the EPS treating its > volunteers badly, which I think was what started this thread : a > slightly emotional post from Christian based not on first-hand > experience, Stop guessing please if you do not know better. Christian has experiences organizing the german Zope & Python conference for more than ten years and he knows the related people very well. So you claim is wrong. - -aj -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS7nlSAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjwHALv1a8GGs4vda6Ci3pSWAhp3pM T3do+QdAenbuyPmBg5hiCQvH+Gjz8W4FGX90eSTAuljJzlLvEra0gvWsNuMhaZAP wRff4m5kJ8BgHPMoWHUk3fjAeTra60E1IIz0H97/3gNPlTiunWKnNmZ1Wb9oC82G LKCgupTfTRZ4ko/zQQ2MG+nVScNXPzmcDsqeDvfOtPTK5It2SzItidWVO58P1v0S +0yW1mdRyrV6oNub7Sr4vvphUozq0I+WM0ukjKLzoT6lDIVclULhpG6TmJftD9tM trHzLxMBuJNUeTDNBQekAnPA9ZjeOL36PLZOJBxFvFz2E2hPuwFH7J/7zJlieK1O hTdUHd18VTZI1o1H6yIjxLvdlZGj62t2TeImSV0ggoWdqLGwHaztdLxiK1YGXyHF GG//BGRQAq89G5+6MjO3M/lFy4kC4dhsDZGaUKk1KOko7n3DyCROB0aCpGJTXx5P ky+4c0wNCYQMerwlVEcqCUgoU2JlnDI= =AkZS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ct at gocept.com Sun Feb 2 18:04:44 2014 From: ct at gocept.com (Christian Theune) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2014 18:04:44 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201402020129.27743.paul@boddie.org.uk> <7F42CCD4-3CAE-47D8-9C22-C0B7A3618ECB@ox.cx> <201402021524.31521.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <78B80B6A-F4A1-44DB-AD08-F88C607846CC@gocept.com> Hi, On 2. Feb2014, at 17:49, John Pinner wrote: > > Yes. And I have no knowledge nor experience of the EPS treating its > volunteers badly, which I think was what started this thread : a > slightly emotional post from Christian based not on first-hand > experience, but on hearsay. My post was triggered by the things the current organizers, some being close friends, told me in informal settings. Those reports reminded me of exactly the kind of community-internal turmoil that triggered me resigning from official community positions due to the shit I had to deal with in the end. This time its not my personal experience but those of my friends (some of whom did experience the same ?friendly fire? two years ago). Might be what classifies as hearsay but hearing those reports makes me extremely sad and angry at the same time as the same people are involved (in the same roles) and nothing seems to have changed. I find my thoughts quite well-represented by that last mail from Paul. Christian -- Christian Theune ? gocept gmbh & co. kg flyingcircus.io ? operations as a service Forsterstra?e 29 ? 06112 Halle (Saale) ? Tel +49 345 1229889-7 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 495 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: From stephan at transvection.de Sun Feb 2 20:53:04 2014 From: stephan at transvection.de (Stephan Diehl) Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2014 20:53:04 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52ED1C7B.3000407@zopyx.com> <201402011742.45810.paul@boddie.org.uk> <4799311.mBNglvdMrL@juma> Message-ID: <52EEA220.1090604@transvection.de> Hi John, On 02/01/2014 10:52 PM, John Pinner wrote: > Hello, > [...] > If I can be assured of getting Maisels Weisbier mit Hefe, and > Sclenkerla Rauchbier in Berlin near the conference venue, I'll > consider the 2014 EuroPython fees reasonable ;-) that shouldn't be the least of your problems. Your Rauchbier is available after a maybe 20 minute walk from the venue (see the first address from here: http://www.schlenkerla.de/verkauf/haendler/branden/berlin.html) Even nearer, you can have the full bavarian experience at a place called Hofbraeu. Stephan > > John > -- > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > From funthyme at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 01:03:36 2014 From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 00:03:36 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <52EEA220.1090604@transvection.de> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52ED1C7B.3000407@zopyx.com> <201402011742.45810.paul@boddie.org.uk> <4799311.mBNglvdMrL@juma> <52EEA220.1090604@transvection.de> Message-ID: Hello, On 2 February 2014 19:53, Stephan Diehl wrote: > Hi John, > On 02/01/2014 10:52 PM, John Pinner wrote: >> >> Hello, >> > [...] > >> If I can be assured of getting Maisels Weisbier mit Hefe, and >> Sclenkerla Rauchbier in Berlin near the conference venue, I'll >> consider the 2014 EuroPython fees reasonable ;-) > > > that shouldn't be the least of your problems. > Your Rauchbier is available after a maybe 20 minute walk from the venue (see > the first address from here: > http://www.schlenkerla.de/verkauf/haendler/branden/berlin.html) > Even nearer, you can have the full bavarian experience at a place called > Hofbraeu. Thank you, Stephan and Achim, for your help. Clearly this sets the seal of approval on EuroPython 2014 ! The conversation made me thirst for Schlenkerla, so I took a walk 200m from our house and bought some : maybe it is as easy to buy in the UK as in Deutschland ;-) mfg John -- From giovanni at pycon.it Mon Feb 3 03:30:18 2014 From: giovanni at pycon.it (Giovanni Bajo) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 03:30:18 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Pricing (was Re: Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started) In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> <52EC9C47.1040603@zopyx.com> <201402011448.59891.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <53D96192-DD2A-4519-A2DC-6A24D0ABC6C5@pycon.it> Il giorno 01/feb/2014, alle ore 19:23, Stefanie L?ck ha scritto: > I think it is difficult to fit all needs and wishes (quantity, quality and costs). One major advantage of the PyConDE for me was, that the tutorials and talks were on different days. Because of this, I did not spent to many holidays and the costs for accommodation was much lower. Perhaps you might think and discuss this for future conferences. You?re mixing cause and effect. If tutorial days are on different days, and you skip them, you get a shorter conference. Nobody prevents you from joining only 2 or 3 days of Europython instead of 5, and save on the hotel. > Furthermore it could be convenient if the program start and end about lunch time. People could save two nights at a hotel, if they live not to far away. Again, you?re welcome to arrive later on the first day and leave earlier on the last day; you?ll miss part of the program, but the program you?re missing wouldn?t exist anyway, if the conference was shorter as per your suggestion. Once a venue is booked for the day, it?s a waste to use it only for half-day. -- Giovanni Bajo Python Italia APS EuroPython 2014 https://ep2014.europython.eu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giovanni at pycon.it Mon Feb 3 03:43:35 2014 From: giovanni at pycon.it (Giovanni Bajo) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 03:43:35 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <7BD7BFB8-43CA-4C1B-A0E6-1DF333DCF0C9@pycon.it> Il giorno 01/feb/2014, alle ore 12:59, Michael ha scritto: > 400? > > Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was > ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). A 5-days conference with tickets starting at ?100 for students and ?190 for an individual ticket, including catering of course. On top of that, we got 200 beds with prices at ?39 per person per night in double room, and other 200 beds at ?45 per person per night, at the 4-star conference hotel, all taxes included. In Florence. EuroPython 2010 was ?120 at the extra early bird rate, for a 2.5 days conference, and hotels surely can?t get much cheaper. Let?s even assume that that means ?much cheaper? for you, still i wouldn?t call EP in Florence ?ridiculously expensive?. -- Giovanni Bajo Python Italia APS EuroPython 2014 https://ep2014.europython.eu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 842 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: From sparks.m at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 04:05:55 2014 From: sparks.m at gmail.com (Michael) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 03:05:55 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <7BD7BFB8-43CA-4C1B-A0E6-1DF333DCF0C9@pycon.it> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> <7BD7BFB8-43CA-4C1B-A0E6-1DF333DCF0C9@pycon.it> Message-ID: You might not call it ridiculously expensive. For me it was/is and I'm sorry that you don't like that, and if you want to go back and forth on this, I'll unsubscribe from the list (I probably should given it's now out my price range actually). You clearly have a higher disposable income than me - which is cool. Note I also said, *when you factor everything else in*. This isn't a criticism, my comment was an expression of surprise. Once upon a time I viewed Europython as an affordable conference - and one I could and did contribute to, since it moved to Florence (and now beyond) it hasn't been. Again, things move on, it's not a criticism. I'd rather the conference move around between places to avoid any one group getting burnt out. *Expensive is after all a relative phrase*, and I still assert that 400 EURO *is* expensive (from my perspective), and if the organisers feel that's what it'll cost them to run it at non-profit, then fair enough. Just means that it prices out lots of people from coming. But then that's economics for you. I also agree that many others will go "wtf? 400 EURO is a bargain!" others will go "Finally, the cost is at a level where my employer will take it seriously as a real conference", and you'll get a whole load of other people instead. Which again, is cool. Anyway, I'll go back to lurking now. Michael. On 3 February 2014 02:43, Giovanni Bajo wrote: > > Il giorno 01/feb/2014, alle ore 12:59, Michael ha > scritto: > > 400? > > Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was > ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). > > > A 5-days conference with tickets starting at EURO 100 for students and EURO 190 > for an individual ticket, including catering of course. On top of that, we > got 200 beds with prices at EURO 39 per person per night in double room, and > other 200 beds at EURO 45 per person per night, at the 4-star conference hotel, > all taxes included. In Florence. > > EuroPython 2010 was ?120 at the extra early bird rate, for a 2.5 days > conference, and hotels surely can't get much cheaper. Let's even assume > that that means "much cheaper" for you, still i wouldn't call EP in > Florence "ridiculously expensive". > -- > Giovanni Bajo > Python Italia APS > > EuroPython 2014 > https://ep2014.europython.eu > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giovanni at pycon.it Mon Feb 3 04:18:51 2014 From: giovanni at pycon.it (Giovanni Bajo) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 04:18:51 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> <7BD7BFB8-43CA-4C1B-A0E6-1DF333DCF0C9@pycon.it> Message-ID: Il giorno 03/feb/2014, alle ore 04:05, Michael ha scritto: > You might not call it ridiculously expensive. For me it was/is and I'm sorry that you don't like that, and if you want to go back and forth on this, I'll unsubscribe from the list (I probably should given it's now out my price range actually). You clearly have a higher disposable income than me - which is cool. Note I also said, when you factor everything else in. This isn't a criticism, my comment was an expression of surprise. Once upon a time I viewed Europython as an affordable conference - and one I could and did contribute to, since it moved to Florence (and now beyond) it hasn't been. Again, things move on, it's not a criticism. I'd rather the conference move around between places to avoid any one group getting burnt out. I?m not questioning personal income, I was trying to keep the discussion on factual terms. I'm honestly failing to see numbers that would show how EuroPython Birmingham was ?affordable" and EuroPython Florence was "ridiculously expensive" ? for an average European. I didn?t miss the ?factor everything in? sentence, and that?s why I also quoted hotel prices. Flights to Florence and Birmingham don?t sound too different either, they?re both small airports, not big hubs. Maybe I?m missing other things that should be factored in, I honestly don?t know. -- Giovanni Bajo Python Italia APS EuroPython 2014 https://ep2014.europython.eu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From luecks at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 10:53:09 2014 From: luecks at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Stefanie_L=FCck?=) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 10:53:09 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Pricing (was Re: Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started) In-Reply-To: <53D96192-DD2A-4519-A2DC-6A24D0ABC6C5@pycon.it> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> <52EC9C47.1040603@zopyx.com> <201402011448.59891.paul@boddie.org.uk> <53D96192-DD2A-4519-A2DC-6A24D0ABC6C5@pycon.it> Message-ID: You are right but it is difficult to decide which days to join and to book a hotel (much cheaper in advance), if you don't know the program or when your talk is scheduled. It's was just a suggestion and I don't see a waste for the half days since there are so many people continuing to talk, meet and exchange... 2014-02-03 Giovanni Bajo : > > Il giorno 01/feb/2014, alle ore 19:23, Stefanie L?ck > ha scritto: > > I think it is difficult to fit all needs and wishes (quantity, quality and > costs). One major advantage of the PyConDE for me was, that the tutorials > and talks were on different days. Because of this, I did not spent to many > holidays and the costs for accommodation was much lower. Perhaps you might > think and discuss this for future conferences. > > > You're mixing cause and effect. If tutorial days are on different days, > and you skip them, you get a shorter conference. Nobody prevents you from > joining only 2 or 3 days of Europython instead of 5, and save on the hotel. > > Furthermore it could be convenient if the program start and end about > lunch time. People could save two nights at a hotel, if they live not to > far away. > > > Again, you're welcome to arrive later on the first day and leave earlier > on the last day; you'll miss part of the program, but the program you're > missing wouldn't exist anyway, if the conference was shorter as per your > suggestion. Once a venue is booked for the day, it's a waste to use it only > for half-day. > -- > Giovanni Bajo > Python Italia APS > > EuroPython 2014 > https://ep2014.europython.eu > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at zopyx.com Mon Feb 3 11:08:15 2014 From: info at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 11:08:15 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Pricing (was Re: Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started) In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <201401312323.40230.paul@boddie.org.uk> <52EC9C47.1040603@zopyx.com> <201402011448.59891.paul@boddie.org.uk> <53D96192-DD2A-4519-A2DC-6A24D0ABC6C5@pycon.it> Message-ID: <52EF6A8F.1070606@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stefanie L?ck wrote: > You are right but it is difficult to decide which days to join and > to book a hotel (much cheaper in advance), if you don't know the > program or when your talk is scheduled. The due date for the conference schedule is 30/3/2014. I think it should not be a large problem finding an affordable hotel four months before the conference. And depending on the hotel site you are using you often have the chance to change or cancel your booking without fees. Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS72qPAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjhtsLwNrpC2sShJqLl5aekeetBDIV jo88IrksDal4Xzz2jb8iurooj7uvpXFD2nteYLN1Vr2tgp7QHGYz3dFYFy4DckBe 0x4aAYXBe6Jj3kibMqHJAwownuPZbpM3T0RN/Rgc7ljEHsFHCgElBQ8NJdYmJfyi EAG0j8PZ/K6jeCVZHY5kHXsmbNm/ezMg7qboSRIaLhf5lzK1R/ig3TrJ9IvZWJSL yFL9M+oAlOXlAGDMxorSAR58KxVRndoEkh9d+/XraEpz4Se3Q5OqSD9RwQk+M3/+ hgIM2PGAEKv8JaVpuijONzKyJLkImFgEB0V1dJTkjedhVHZ8cDjtMHM0e3x71JHI PZJpbvdBNJ5OXJeHuR2z8FDVoIVFJEwYrgaZWp0tM0yuhV6tYW15HVHhJJ1k+fHL YuhYpY/ZIEclH4a10wJPJKH0kO/A8BBJvqkE/fvdMjMww+fXvbBx4uUYCVn/xtsn qvadkCtRPsbIPPEBpb1zEv8IBFrmtwA= =V3L7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From funthyme at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 12:50:27 2014 From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 11:50:27 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: <7BD7BFB8-43CA-4C1B-A0E6-1DF333DCF0C9@pycon.it> References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> <7BD7BFB8-43CA-4C1B-A0E6-1DF333DCF0C9@pycon.it> Message-ID: Hello, On 3 February 2014 02:43, Giovanni Bajo wrote: > > Il giorno 01/feb/2014, alle ore 12:59, Michael ha > scritto: > > 400? > > Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was > ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). > > > A 5-days conference with tickets starting at ?100 for students and ?190 for > an individual ticket, including catering of course. On top of that, we got > 200 beds with prices at ?39 per person per night in double room, and other > 200 beds at ?45 per person per night, at the 4-star conference hotel, all > taxes included. In Florence. > > EuroPython 2010 was ?120 at the extra early bird rate, for a 2.5 days > conference, and hotels surely can?t get much cheaper. Let?s even assume that > that means ?much cheaper? for you, still i wouldn?t call EP in Florence > ?ridiculously expensive?. All of which is true, except that youa re neglecting to mention the Partners Programme. The only way I could justify going, giving a shortage of money and time, was to treat it as a holiday and take my long conference-suffering wife. However the cost of the PP was far too high, maybe that's what Michael meant by " (when you factor everything in)." best wishes, John -- From giovanni at pycon.it Mon Feb 3 13:04:35 2014 From: giovanni at pycon.it (Giovanni Bajo) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 13:04:35 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started In-Reply-To: References: <3482344.NNzFdStJc6@sangiovese> <52EBF3C8.8000309@zopyx.com> <7BD7BFB8-43CA-4C1B-A0E6-1DF333DCF0C9@pycon.it> Message-ID: <1F98F471-9040-4A30-ABB7-FCFE022A1356@pycon.it> Il giorno 03/feb/2014, alle ore 12:50, John Pinner ha scritto: > Hello, > > On 3 February 2014 02:43, Giovanni Bajo wrote: >> >> Il giorno 01/feb/2014, alle ore 12:59, Michael ha >> scritto: >> >> 400? >> >> Christ on a bike, europython used to be affordable. Florence was >> ridiculously expensive (when you factor everything in). >> >> >> A 5-days conference with tickets starting at ?100 for students and ?190 for >> an individual ticket, including catering of course. On top of that, we got >> 200 beds with prices at ?39 per person per night in double room, and other >> 200 beds at ?45 per person per night, at the 4-star conference hotel, all >> taxes included. In Florence. >> >> EuroPython 2010 was ?120 at the extra early bird rate, for a 2.5 days >> conference, and hotels surely can?t get much cheaper. Let?s even assume that >> that means ?much cheaper? for you, still i wouldn?t call EP in Florence >> ?ridiculously expensive?. > > All of which is true, except that youa re neglecting to mention the > Partners Programme. > > The only way I could justify going, giving a shortage of money and > time, was to treat it as a holiday and take my long > conference-suffering wife. However the cost of the PP was far too > high, maybe that's what Michael meant by " (when you factor everything > in)." Hi John, that might have been true the first year; we got painful feedback on that, and acted, by adding more organization time towards skipping any middleman and hiring directly the guides. The second and third year had pretty reasonable tours in my opinion. Santa Croce: ?8. Ponte Vecchio and Reinassance way of living: ?8. San Marco Museum: ?10. Santa Maria Novella: ?10. Etc. They all included an English speaking guide and entrance fees where applicable. I think the prices were in line with EuroPython UK (http://ep2010.europython.eu/about/partners/). Since the event itself can only be described as moderately more expensive than EuroPython UK (and only if you don?t look at per-day cost), I guess the only people that were really impacted were UK people that were saving on the travel the previous years. I can see that and sympathize with them, but I don?t agree that the event was so more expensive for the average European. NOTE: I?m comparing relative numbers between UK and IT. I?m not saying that the event is ?cheap? or ?expensive? on absolute terms. -- Giovanni Bajo Python Italia APS EuroPython 2014 https://ep2014.europython.eu From lists at zopyx.com Tue Feb 4 14:35:46 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 14:35:46 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Early Bird ticket sale starts tomorrow! Message-ID: <52F0ECB2.8040904@zopyx.com> Hi there, the Early Bird ticket sale for EuroPython 2014 will start tomorrow, 5.2.2014 at 15:00 h UTC/16:00 h CET. https://ep2014.europython.eu Regards Andreas Jung EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin 21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython From mal at europython.eu Thu Feb 6 12:16:24 2014 From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:16:24 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython Early Bird ticket sale open Message-ID: <52F36F08.9030605@europython.eu> This blog post is also available for online reading at: http://blog.europython.eu/post/75703508548/europython-early-bird-ticket-sale-open Tickets for EuroPython 2014 are now on sale! Early Bird tickets (300 tickets contingent) are available to a reduced price and are sold in the three categories business, personal and student. Students must follow the instructions on the ticket page in order to be eligible for the student rate. The Early Bird ticket phase ends when all 300 tickets have gone. http://ep2014.europython.eu (Forwarded from the EuroPython blog at http://blog.europython.eu/) Enjoy, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ From mal at europython.eu Thu Feb 6 12:18:05 2014 From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:18:05 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython Financial Assistance Message-ID: <52F36F6D.9070609@europython.eu> This blog post is also available for online reading at: http://blog.europython.eu/post/75779637866/europython-financial-assistance We offer special grants for people in need of a financial aid to join EuroPython. Follow these instructions to apply for a grant. As part of our commitment to help everyone joining EuroPython, we are pleased to announce that we offer conference grants at 3 categories: * Ticket discount: Get 50% off of the conference ticket you?ve booked * Free ticket: Get a standard ticket for the conference for free (including full access to talks, trainings, sprints, official social event on Wednesday evening ...) * Ticket and travel costs: Get a standard ticket for free and we will cover the travel and accommodation costs pro rata, depending on what you are applying for. For more details please check the Financial Assistance page: https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/registration/financial-assistance/ (Forwarded from the EuroPython blog at http://blog.europython.eu/) Enjoy, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ From riccardo at sideralis.org Thu Feb 6 15:33:51 2014 From: riccardo at sideralis.org (Riccardo Attilio Galli) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:33:51 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees Message-ID: I've just subscribed to the mailing list and I can't insert myself in older discussions, sorry for this new thread. Last year me and my girlfriend participated to the Florence conference. We paid 340? (early bird, 100 for a lite ticket and 240 for a standard ticket). This year we should pay 600?. Now I read on this list that the prices are "comparable". I can't see how. Maybe these prices are driven by the costs of living in Berlin and the organizers have done their best, but I find them unaffordable. The fact that other conferences cost more doesn't change much, and we should compare the costs only between Europython editions (every conference has different policies about volunteering/launches/etc.). I suppose that the main problem is that the Berlin conference is "all inclusive", with trainings included. Last year I had an hard time choosing between the standard and lite ticket, giving that if you follow a training, you miss the conference, and the opposite is also true. But while I could gain something from a couple trainings, my girlfriend, neo programmer, would just throw her money away. This year I wouldn't pay for the trainings, because my last three year experience tell me that I like more to follow the conference, but I can't choose anymore, and my girlfriend neither. The result is a disheartening huge increase in the cost of our participation. We may ask for a discount for my girlfriend "because she's a woman and does some coding", but we both find it immoral. The result is that we will probably not participate (unless my boss is struck by lightning (in a positive way)), quite certainly not her. I can't see how beginners can justify such prices, and I don't think that the Europython want to be for seasoned well paid pythonistas only. On another note, I'm dubious that it's possible to offer trainings to everybody. There must be a maximum number of seats and ratio people/trainers to receive a quality teaching, and a free for all will probably means early assaults to take a reservation, or loose the training. I can only hope that these prices don't end up as a reference for next editions, unless to set the top of the bar. I wish also that the trainings will be optional again in the next editions. Wish you all the best for the conference, Riccardo Galli -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From samet2 at gmail.com Fri Feb 7 02:47:31 2014 From: samet2 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?U2FtZXQgQXRkYcSf?=) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 17:47:31 -0800 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I completely agree with Riccardo Attilio Galli. But I know Berlin is not cheap. On the other hand, I'm going to skip 2014, because there are all other costs plus conference fee is expensive. I paid all my costs for Europython 2012 by myself because the company I worked for didn't have any kind of conference support. They even didn't allow me to go, so the conference week was cut off from my annual leave. That was another cost I paid to go to Europython. So there were two major costs (except my holidays) : (plane tickets + hotel) and registration fee. I used to live in a fairly close country to Italy, (Turkey) so plane tickets were around 200-300 EURO. If we ignore daily expenses (like food, beers etc.) half of all costs would be the registration fee (which was around 300 EURO). I talked to a lot of people in EP2012 and there were only a few people paying the costs. Others were supported by their companies. If the tickets were 400 EURO in 2012, I couldn't even afford it. I even couldn't afford a full ticket(300 EURO), I had been pursueing my masters degre e in 2012 , which allowed me to buy a student ticket (115 EURO). Then PSF kindly paid my costs in 2013 for PyCon. This year PyCon will be in Montreal, I can't attend because of dates. And I can't attend Europython because I'm not supported by any company, I missed early bird tickets and 400 EURO is not cheap. I want to attend Python conferences. But if registration fees are expensive, it'll be like a private party, less number of people will show up and probably individuals not supported by any company will miss the fun. I'll miss the fun. Sorry for my English (and if I mis-remember the ticket prices, numbers etc.) Samet Atdag On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 6:33 AM, Riccardo Attilio Galli < riccardo at sideralis.org> wrote: > I've just subscribed to the mailing list and I can't insert myself in > older discussions, sorry for this new thread. > > Last year me and my girlfriend participated to the Florence conference. We > paid 340 EURO (early bird, 100 for a lite ticket and 240 for a standard ticket). > > This year we should pay 600 EURO. > > Now I read on this list that the prices are "comparable". I can't see how. > Maybe these prices are driven by the costs of living in Berlin and the > organizers have done their best, but I find them unaffordable. The fact > that other conferences cost more doesn't change much, and we should compare > the costs only between Europython editions (every conference has different > policies about volunteering/launches/etc.). > > I suppose that the main problem is that the Berlin conference is "all > inclusive", with trainings included. > Last year I had an hard time choosing between the standard and lite > ticket, giving that if you follow a training, you miss the conference, and > the opposite is also true. But while I could gain something from a couple > trainings, my girlfriend, neo programmer, would just throw her money away. > > This year I wouldn't pay for the trainings, because my last three year > experience tell me that I like more to follow the conference, but I can't > choose anymore, and my girlfriend neither. The result is a disheartening > huge increase in the cost of our participation. > > We may ask for a discount for my girlfriend "because she's a woman and > does some coding", but we both find it immoral. > > The result is that we will probably not participate (unless my boss is > struck by lightning (in a positive way)), quite certainly not her. > > I can't see how beginners can justify such prices, and I don't think that > the Europython want to be for seasoned well paid pythonistas only. > > On another note, I'm dubious that it's possible to offer trainings to > everybody. There must be a maximum number of seats and ratio > people/trainers to receive a quality teaching, and a free for all will > probably means early assaults to take a reservation, or loose the training. > > I can only hope that these prices don't end up as a reference for next > editions, unless to set the top of the bar. I wish also that the trainings > will be optional again in the next editions. > > Wish you all the best for the conference, > Riccardo Galli > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 - Berlin, 21th-27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.brandl at gmx.net Fri Feb 7 07:55:11 2014 From: g.brandl at gmx.net (Georg Brandl) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 07:55:11 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52F4834F.9020100@gmx.net> Am 07.02.2014 02:47, schrieb Samet Atda?: > Then PSF kindly paid my costs in 2013 for PyCon. This year PyCon will be in > Montreal, I can't attend because of dates. And I can't attend Europython because > I'm not supported by any company, I missed early bird tickets and 400? is not > cheap. I want to attend Python conferences. But if registration fees are > expensive, it'll be like a private party, less number of people will show up and > probably individuals not supported by any company will miss the fun. I'll miss > the fun. Ah yes. It used to be that Early Bird is open to anyone booking in a fixed time span. Now it's 300 first-come, first-serve tickets sold out after not even 24 hours?! Georg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From arigo at tunes.org Fri Feb 7 09:27:39 2014 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 09:27:39 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees In-Reply-To: <52F4834F.9020100@gmx.net> References: <52F4834F.9020100@gmx.net> Message-ID: Hi Georg, On 7 February 2014 07:55, Georg Brandl wrote: > Ah yes. It used to be that Early Bird is open to anyone booking in a fixed time > span. Now it's 300 first-come, first-serve tickets sold out after not even > 24 hours?! EuroPython is not the place where I'd expect to have to wait in line and jump at Early Bird tickets that are gone in under 24 hours. This is bogus. I do hope that organizers --- if not of this conference, at least of future conferences --- don't repeat that. (I'm not a frustrated guy that missed his ticket; I often book past the Early Bird date anyway for myself, as a small contribution to support the conference, but I know that not everybody has money to spare.) A bient?t, Armin. From ralph.heinkel at web.de Fri Feb 7 09:32:17 2014 From: ralph.heinkel at web.de (Ralph Heinkel) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 09:32:17 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees In-Reply-To: <52F4834F.9020100@gmx.net> References: <52F4834F.9020100@gmx.net> Message-ID: <52F49A11.2020802@web.de> yep, I also missed it, the personal tickets are indeed already sold out. Very annoying ... Is there a chance that the number of early-bird tickets can get extended? Ralph On 07.02.14 07:55, Georg Brandl wrote: > Ah yes. It used to be that Early Bird is open to anyone booking in a > fixed time span. Now it's 300 first-come, first-serve tickets sold > out after not even 24 hours?! Georg From info at zopyx.com Fri Feb 7 10:01:05 2014 From: info at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:01:05 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees In-Reply-To: <52F49A11.2020802@web.de> References: <52F4834F.9020100@gmx.net> <52F49A11.2020802@web.de> Message-ID: <52F4A0D1.6090303@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ralph Heinkel wrote: > yep, I also missed it, the personal tickets are indeed already sold > out. Very annoying ... We are discussing this issue. Also to our surprise the tickets sold very quickly. Please stay tuned... Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS9KDRAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjVt0Lv2DOdzCxjZGSFqFrJwhHGC2j bF+ilLTydbW3Br6ZXWC1SHyAxkF2YvgHgT2aCe5BAYE0q8A/MznlGZ5uhBMWi5+o uWcXkHjFy4p2tHmtVmqPE51II5g1PVq2sDeKVZb54oatfN9xPcgHFRmKq7hMmcV1 aqDkehyzh7k5dIktx4HDrZ35OX5XZyzFQzPsurLLZVmUZpdTn//y2ZfyFzoH7HfH 4uidfVATJC6kUx43hs/QZb18NM+rNo9DJrA3tSjQzQ6ZZR7/32ZTYLz9awhy4mi8 I+QOGHsmnIhNmWH9oefIQXjg5GZlYev8sr/WrZpylLr9LHb6LXeKeiIJmRnXqcXB kfmH4pcyAHHBdgTZ7BnvosaNFL8QbaLC3YdfXSlN2KlRAtKrRGjdWfQRJVWNtTyN 8Hi4ktIUbrUJ207aGRwPPTGllVIXniR2SxrANv1i2vrgyrzJCdAwUupuz32K8uSS 2rsAp7WHFCVnPGNg/1d1PVgFMq7l8Mw= =niN1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From info at zopyx.com Fri Feb 7 10:13:01 2014 From: info at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:13:01 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees In-Reply-To: <52F4834F.9020100@gmx.net> References: <52F4834F.9020100@gmx.net> Message-ID: <52F48755.1050207@zopyx.com> Georg Brandl wrote: > Am 07.02.2014 02:47, schrieb Samet Atda?: > >> Then PSF kindly paid my costs in 2013 for PyCon. This year PyCon will be in >> Montreal, I can't attend because of dates. And I can't attend Europython because >> I'm not supported by any company, I missed early bird tickets and 400? is not >> cheap. I want to attend Python conferences. But if registration fees are >> expensive, it'll be like a private party, less number of people will show up and >> probably individuals not supported by any company will miss the fun. I'll miss >> the fun. > > Ah yes. It used to be that Early Bird is open to anyone booking in a fixed time > span. Now it's 300 first-come, first-serve tickets sold out after not even > 24 hours?! The "Personal" Early Bird tickets have been sold completely during the first day. There are a couple of student and business tickets in the early bird category left. Andreas From mal at europython.eu Fri Feb 7 10:44:56 2014 From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:44:56 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52F4AB18.9090102@europython.eu> On 06.02.2014 15:33, Riccardo Attilio Galli wrote: > I've just subscribed to the mailing list and I can't insert myself in older > discussions, sorry for this new thread. > > Last year me and my girlfriend participated to the Florence conference. We > paid 340? (early bird, 100 for a lite ticket and 240 for a standard ticket). > > This year we should pay 600?. > > Now I read on this list that the prices are "comparable". I can't see how. > Maybe these prices are driven by the costs of living in Berlin and the > organizers have done their best, but I find them unaffordable. The fact > that other conferences cost more doesn't change much, and we should compare > the costs only between Europython editions (every conference has different > policies about volunteering/launches/etc.). > > I suppose that the main problem is that the Berlin conference is "all > inclusive", with trainings included. > Last year I had an hard time choosing between the standard and lite ticket, > giving that if you follow a training, you miss the conference, and the > opposite is also true. But while I could gain something from a couple > trainings, my girlfriend, neo programmer, would just throw her money away. > > This year I wouldn't pay for the trainings, because my last three year > experience tell me that I like more to follow the conference, but I can't > choose anymore, and my girlfriend neither. The result is a disheartening > huge increase in the cost of our participation. > > We may ask for a discount for my girlfriend "because she's a woman and does > some coding", but we both find it immoral. > > The result is that we will probably not participate (unless my boss is > struck by lightning (in a positive way)), quite certainly not her. > > I can't see how beginners can justify such prices, and I don't think that > the Europython want to be for seasoned well paid pythonistas only. > > On another note, I'm dubious that it's possible to offer trainings to > everybody. There must be a maximum number of seats and ratio > people/trainers to receive a quality teaching, and a free for all will > probably means early assaults to take a reservation, or loose the training. > > I can only hope that these prices don't end up as a reference for next > editions, unless to set the top of the bar. I wish also that the trainings > will be optional again in the next editions. Hi Riccardo, thank you for your open words. It is true: the ticket prices this year are higher than we all liked. Unfortunately, the venue costs in Berlin are a lot higher than in Florence. This is mainly due to EuroPython hitting the 1000 attendee level for 2014, which results in the conference needing venues specialized in running larger conferences. Those typically have a higher cost per attendee, since they can't rely on mix calculations such as hotels often apply (taking both room nights and attendee costs into account). The EPS ran the Berlin budget against several different pricing structures (including the one used in Florence), but it turned out that the one chosen by the local organizers in Berlin results in the lowest average prices for everyone. Please do consider using the financial aid program if you can't afford the prices. We are a community after all, so people who have no problem with the higher prices can fund people who would not be able attend otherwise. This is what the financial aid program is all about and there's nothing to feel immoral about when using it, really :-) Thanks, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ From giovanni at pycon.it Fri Feb 7 11:31:55 2014 From: giovanni at pycon.it (Giovanni Bajo) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 11:31:55 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33283F33-9197-40DB-897A-6636CF4BCABD@pycon.it> Il giorno 07/feb/2014, alle ore 02:47, Samet Atda? ha scritto: > So there were two major costs (except my holidays) : (plane tickets + hotel) and registration fee. I used to live in a fairly close country to Italy, (Turkey) so plane tickets were around 200-300?. If we ignore daily expenses (like food, beers etc.) half of all costs would be the registration fee (which was around 300?). Just to set the record straight, the early bird, personal, full ticket (inc. training) was ?240 in 2012/2013. It didn?t include access to the conference dinner, which was ?40 (the conference dinner is included in EP2014). The lite ticket (without training) was ?190. > I talked to a lot of people in EP2012 and there were only a few people paying the costs. Others were supported by their companies. Again, just to put hard numbers out, the split between company, personal and student tickets in 2013 was 45%, 45%, 10% respectively (I don?t have the records here, so I?m quoting off the top of my mind, but it should be correct). I wouldn?t represent EuroPython as a conference where most people are being paid by their employer. > Then PSF kindly paid my costs in 2013 for PyCon. This year PyCon will be in Montreal, I can't attend because of dates. And I can't attend Europython because I'm not supported by any company, I missed early bird tickets and 400? is not cheap. Please notice that there is a financial aid program for EuroPython as well: https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/registration/financial-assistance/ and you?re welcome to apply. > I want to attend Python conferences. But if registration fees are expensive, it'll be like a private party, less number of people will show up and probably individuals not supported by any company will miss the fun. I'll miss the fun. I understand your frustration. The main issue with the price is always venue costs, and venues tend to get proportionally more expensive as the conference grows. We could probably get a very cheap venue holding max 200 people, and sell tickets for ?100 each. Would that make the conference less or more inclusive? Obviously, there would be wider range of people that are able to afford the conference, but at the same time there would be less tickets available, it would get sold out in less than a day, and the sale would sound like a gamble. Nonetheless, we understand that there is a strong feeling that the current prices are "beyond the threshold" for some people. Thanks for your honest feedback, it is valuable. -- Giovanni Bajo Python Italia APS EuroPython 2014 https://ep2014.europython.eu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 842 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: From samet2 at gmail.com Fri Feb 7 12:04:50 2014 From: samet2 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?U2FtZXQgQXRkYcSf?=) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 03:04:50 -0800 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees In-Reply-To: <33283F33-9197-40DB-897A-6636CF4BCABD@pycon.it> References: <33283F33-9197-40DB-897A-6636CF4BCABD@pycon.it> Message-ID: ?Hi?, On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 2:31 AM, Giovanni Bajo wrote: > > Il giorno 07/feb/2014, alle ore 02:47, Samet Atda? ha > scritto: > > So there were two major costs (except my holidays) : (plane tickets + > hotel) and registration fee. I used to live in a fairly close country to > Italy, (Turkey) so plane tickets were around 200-300?. If we ignore daily > expenses (like food, beers etc.) half of all costs would be the > registration fee (which was around 300?). > > > Just to set the record straight, the early bird, personal, full ticket > (inc. training) was ?240 in 2012/2013. It didn?t include access to the > conference dinner, which was ?40 (the conference dinner is included in > EP2014). The lite ticket (without training) was ?190. > > I talked to a lot of people in EP2012 and there were only a few people > paying the costs. Others were supported by their companies. > > > Again, just to put hard numbers out, the split between company, personal > and student tickets in 2013 was 45%, 45%, 10% respectively (I don?t have > the records here, so I?m quoting off the top of my mind, but it should be > correct). I wouldn?t represent EuroPython as a conference where most people > are being paid by their employer. > ?Thanks for numbers. People buy personal tickets and companies pay cash to them. This happens. So I guess number of employee-supported people might be higher than 45%.? I agree on that EP is not that type of conference, but if this increasing trend in fees continues, than less and less individuals will have opportunity of attendance. > > Then PSF kindly paid my costs in 2013 for PyCon. This year PyCon will be > in Montreal, I can't attend because of dates. And I can't attend Europython > because I'm not supported by any company, I missed early bird tickets and > 400? is not cheap. > > > Please notice that there is a financial aid program for EuroPython as well: > https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/registration/financial-assistance/ > > and you?re welcome to apply. > Having this opportunity always make me feel that I'm in a great community. It would be great to be able to afford the registration fee as a full-time employee.? > > I want to attend Python conferences. But if registration fees are > expensive, it'll be like a private party, less number of people will show > up and probably individuals not supported by any company will miss the fun. > I'll miss the fun. > > > I understand your frustration. The main issue with the price is always > venue costs, and venues tend to get proportionally more expensive as the > conference grows. We could probably get a very cheap venue holding max 200 > people, and sell tickets for ?100 each. Would that make the conference less > or more inclusive? Obviously, there would be wider range of people that are > able to afford the conference, but at the same time there would be less > tickets available, it would get sold out in less than a day, and the sale > would sound like a gamble. > ?I see and understand the point?. Sorry for my ignorance, do we know how PyCon handles bigger crowds? (If I remember right, PyCon registration was 300$ last year.) > Nonetheless, we understand that there is a strong feeling that the current > prices are "beyond the threshold" for some people. Thanks for your honest > feedback, it is valuable. > ?Thanks for understanding complaining people. By the way, Giovanni, EP2012 was awesome. ? > -- > Giovanni Bajo > Python Italia APS > > EuroPython 2014 > https://ep2014.europython.eu > > ?Samet Atdag? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists at zopyx.com Fri Feb 7 14:49:17 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:49:17 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday Message-ID: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Please see http://blog.europython.eu/post/75895165264/early-bird-personal-tickets-sold-out-next-charge-on Regards Andreas Jung EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin 21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS9ORdAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjDiELwLnQY4kqvZnM064/8LGX9IfC 2utUF3Rhshj7TSiJcGj/DM5y2aVpn8Zve3zLErzNDF6Qam4I1WeerEprVOKvw0cO 7FvfFdpLG4GewOG9/se9Bdha8r5Ych/GNgBLqg93SMzDfgiI6NeHSHlqmd7pZeB3 sOyyCQFZlPmWbENitg7rvAiJF2+mKm5Lx8eihy0n6zrbxUQdCqcJTqXB5IG3F/hq gVbB6NHEgeZDGVCn7FAPPHTUQ8bxJRFvv+QiQnSksE3HcGG3mG1RUDpXidr8j1As vkeS2SfYeUH2FB2bOAuaIWwjfn2Y1HWWbtM+W66A3AuPsxSzK+XQoErqwPFjop9m ywamH7cmyR9iOtCUt8uxNCgcC4NITkOv0KOvVJS7agyDhwWzZXKvF2ndnhzey8SZ l5vOY+vGC7ynvWolHuhHNAhARORJsnknC0D99QGARnPFUURv8PKNTTd0cWU3PdT0 tBJs3uQj0IPygQDeDWYVmeWcxtRDoQU= =LSfr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tw at waldmann-edv.de Fri Feb 7 14:24:05 2014 From: tw at waldmann-edv.de (Thomas Waldmann) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:24:05 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] saving money with accomodation / mobile phones Message-ID: <52F4DE75.1070808@waldmann-edv.de> Hi, I have followed the slightly heated discussion about conference prices and earlybird. I don't think I can contribute much to that discussion (except noting that I usually bought lite ticket for cheaper in the past), but I wanted to be constructive and ask / suggest something else that could contribute to keep total costs lower than with other solutions: Accommodation ============= I found it quite nice that in Florence (and also at other locations before that), they made a deal with one hotel (in that case: the conference hotel) to offer relatively low prices for the conference participants and that room sharing was realized with no coordination effort from the participant's side. Now, in Berlin, we will be at the BCC, so the venue is not a hotel - but maybe someone from the organisers knows a hotel nearby and could make a good deal with them? I know Berlin mostly from the CCC events (like 28c3 in 2011) and they used to make some good deal with the A&O Hostels in Berlin, so that cost-sensitive participants can get a hostel bed (in a shared room) + breakfast for about 20 EUR per person per day. They usually just reserved some "kontingent" and got a code for that which is valid until some specific date. Then, until that date, every participant could just book with them directly and individually, referring to that code to get the special price. A&O Hostel is simple accomodation, don't expect any luxury. You'll get a bed (shared room with N other beds, N = 2,4,6) with a bathroom. Breakfast is all-you-can eat buffet style (also rather simple, but OK). Important requirement to make such a thing work: IF you do it, announce it early, before everybody already booked individually. Note: A&O is just an example (I was there personally and repeatedly), of course there are also other hostels / hotels, which I do not know. The CCC organizers also used to rent(?) some gym so everybody who wants to sleep with his sleeping bag on a gym floor plus have a shower there in the morning, can get that for only 5 EUR per night. OTOH, XXc3 is a bigger event and might address a slightly different kind of participants, so I am not sure how this can be done best for EP. Guess if someone could do a quick poll how much everybody would like to pay for accomodation (and accept the comfort level related to that price), you could get some hard data. (Smart)Phone SIM ================ I am not sure how the situation will be in the summer (heard about some EU thing that should lower prices!?), but in case that is not in effect then, maybe there could be also some deal with a mobile carrier. We all know the ripoff that mobile carriers do when you are not in your home country, esp. when it comes to data transfer. Often doing only the slightest thing will cost you as much as you usually pay for a whole month. I am not sure how to approach some carrier best with this, but maybe someone else knows (or even works for one). Just as an idea: some people might arrive early or leave late, esp. if they come from far away (so they can have a look at berlin without missing a conf day), so maybe include some days before/after if it doesn't raise the price significantly. Also same hint as above: IF you do it, announce it early, so people don't run and get it on their own. Cheers, Thomas From lists at zopyx.com Fri Feb 7 15:01:01 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 15:01:01 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] saving money with accomodation / mobile phones In-Reply-To: <52F4DE75.1070808@waldmann-edv.de> References: <52F4DE75.1070808@waldmann-edv.de> Message-ID: <52F4E71D.3030309@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thomas Waldmann wrote: > Hi, > > I have followed the slightly heated discussion about conference > prices and earlybird. > > I don't think I can contribute much to that discussion (except > noting that I usually bought lite ticket for cheaper in the past), > but I wanted to be constructive and ask / suggest something else that > could contribute to keep total costs lower than with other > solutions: > > Accommodation ============= > > I found it quite nice that in Florence (and also at other locations > before that), they made a deal with one hotel (in that case: the > conference hotel) to offer relatively low prices for the conference > participants and that room sharing was realized with no coordination > effort from the participant's side. > See website... Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS9OccAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjWgoLvAmsJcd7/h5u98X6LW0dhaL8 ZwDgdPKTMy8rgV5eRV6AtL+uKu+plwGl9WPdJeszI9krRNX7wfN9W7JZMaLh9LOf 9wXdxc8cv8F4Bb4T1UwY2Mo9MsENRyWQLifI/JZWOWQvSigS9qaeuDH+gjCrnMml bJlhuwrh24YYx1nfkDPC3iKipauxU5+769XiJWUCAHCaEYrJlOYSNONWvUhc87yC qltMNcwpvYU1JIq/UIKoEkZBkRb/p96vi+JZyYoFwI4HTkgouir9ujiTT7Id5Uzb VoOwjhE5c4FNsMOhmuBIN/YC5+svarvFsyilEw/MqgGhoiuFRWD/23ft14oO73Zi vqAirRzlmnUjbsRb1aRmHPAZcvEKcdbY9GFw1l9Zn5pXxzalfl2nvcaclO9lT/Qf RwT3ztYBD7k6C+1LrgoDDi1HiZqPcZl3dpCSoqlHbwnVsYvZLddwj9dv1vgQv/Fj cM3CIBBxzYLhhTC6/qLkEcmylwvh9p4= =eJlv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chef at ghum.de Fri Feb 7 15:02:20 2014 From: chef at ghum.de (Massa, Harald Armin) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 15:02:20 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython] saving money with mobile phones Message-ID: > (Smart)Phone SIM > ================ > > I am not sure how the situation will be in the summer (heard about some > EU thing that should lower prices!?), but in case that is not in effect > then, maybe there could be also some deal with a mobile carrier. > > We all know the ripoff that mobile carriers do when you are not in your > home country, esp. when it comes to data transfer. Often doing only the > slightest thing will cost you as much as you usually pay for a whole month. Thomas is right with the roaming stuff. Anyway, in Germany there are multiple cheap solutions which do not require any of the precious time of the organizers: The big discounters like ALDI and Lidl have their branded mobile services; SIM-Cards can be bought for roughly 10EUR with enough minutes and data to last for a week light usage (email, navigation). Quite sure also Penny and Rewe and most drogeries have those cards; at least one of those shops will be in crawling distance from the venue. Harald -- GHUM GmbH Harald Armin Massa Spielberger Stra?e 49 70435 Stuttgart 0173/9409607 Amtsgericht Stuttgart, HRB 734971 From tw at waldmann-edv.de Fri Feb 7 15:21:42 2014 From: tw at waldmann-edv.de (Thomas Waldmann) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 15:21:42 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] saving money with accomodation / mobile phones In-Reply-To: <52F4E71D.3030309@zopyx.com> References: <52F4DE75.1070808@waldmann-edv.de> <52F4E71D.3030309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52F4EBF6.2040006@waldmann-edv.de> >> Accommodation ============= > >> I found it quite nice that in Florence (and also at other >> locations before that), they made a deal with one hotel (in that >> case: the conference hotel) to offer relatively low prices for >> the conference participants and that room sharing was realized >> with no coordination effort from the participant's side. > > > See website... I didn't find anything there (just had another look right now) what could be considered as related to what I just posted to the ML. I was looking through everything there: https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/ So I guess it's either hidden quite well there (I looked at the english language web site) or not updated yet or you mean something else than I do. So, please provide a full URL for what you are referring to. From joni.kivinen at simosol.fi Fri Feb 7 15:26:01 2014 From: joni.kivinen at simosol.fi (Joni Kivinen) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 16:26:01 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] saving money with accomodation / mobile phones In-Reply-To: <52F4EBF6.2040006@waldmann-edv.de> References: <52F4DE75.1070808@waldmann-edv.de> <52F4E71D.3030309@zopyx.com> <52F4EBF6.2040006@waldmann-edv.de> Message-ID: Found it! https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/venue/accommodation/ Apparently you get a lot more pages by hitting the three lines on the top right. 2014-02-07 Thomas Waldmann : >>> Accommodation ============= >> >>> I found it quite nice that in Florence (and also at other >>> locations before that), they made a deal with one hotel (in that >>> case: the conference hotel) to offer relatively low prices for >>> the conference participants and that room sharing was realized >>> with no coordination effort from the participant's side. >> >> >> See website... > > I didn't find anything there (just had another look right now) what > could be considered as related to what I just posted to the ML. > > I was looking through everything there: https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/ > > So I guess it's either hidden quite well there (I looked at the > english language web site) or not updated yet or you mean something > else than I do. > > So, please provide a full URL for what you are referring to. > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From mal at europython.eu Fri Feb 7 15:30:27 2014 From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 15:30:27 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] saving money with accomodation / mobile phones In-Reply-To: <52F4EBF6.2040006@waldmann-edv.de> References: <52F4DE75.1070808@waldmann-edv.de> <52F4E71D.3030309@zopyx.com> <52F4EBF6.2040006@waldmann-edv.de> Message-ID: <52F4EE03.3070503@europython.eu> On 07.02.2014 15:21, Thomas Waldmann wrote: >>> Accommodation ============= >> >>> I found it quite nice that in Florence (and also at other >>> locations before that), they made a deal with one hotel (in that >>> case: the conference hotel) to offer relatively low prices for >>> the conference participants and that room sharing was realized >>> with no coordination effort from the participant's side. >> >> >> See website... > > I didn't find anything there (just had another look right now) what > could be considered as related to what I just posted to the ML. > > I was looking through everything there: https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/ > > So I guess it's either hidden quite well there (I looked at the > english language web site) or not updated yet or you mean something > else than I do. > > So, please provide a full URL for what you are referring to. I think this is due to the drop-down menu not working on the website. If you click on the menu symbol all the way on the right, the menu opens. You can then find the link to the hotel list under "Venue": https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/venue/accommodation/ Unfortunately, the prices listed on the page are not much different than what you can get from typical hotel booking sites at the moment, but they may prove useful close to the event when prices tend to go up: http://www.kayak.de/hotels/Berlin,Deutschland-c9109/2014-07-20/2014-07-27 -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ From tw at waldmann-edv.de Fri Feb 7 15:39:00 2014 From: tw at waldmann-edv.de (Thomas Waldmann) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 15:39:00 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] EP website menu expansion issues? In-Reply-To: References: <52F4DE75.1070808@waldmann-edv.de> <52F4E71D.3030309@zopyx.com> <52F4EBF6.2040006@waldmann-edv.de> Message-ID: <52F4F004.3030009@waldmann-edv.de> On 02/07/2014 03:26 PM, Joni Kivinen wrote: > Found it! > > https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/venue/accommodation/ Interesting. I didn't see that page yet. I did a click-through through all the (seemingly complete) main menu and looked for links on these views, nothing there. An hour ago, I even clicked on that 3-stripes menu item, but nothing happened (nothing appeared additionally). Now I did it again and the 3-stripes item made the navigation expand (as expected) and I could find more links, including the one with the accommodation deals. So, there seems to be some navigation issue, not sure what is causing this. Using firefox 26.0 on ubuntu (plus some extensions for better privacy), in case that matters. Maybe you could just put links to the sub-views into the content area of the main view, not sure if other people also experience issues with that navigation menu expansion. From giovanni at pycon.it Fri Feb 7 15:44:12 2014 From: giovanni at pycon.it (Giovanni Bajo) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 15:44:12 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] More thoughts about conference's fees In-Reply-To: References: <33283F33-9197-40DB-897A-6636CF4BCABD@pycon.it> Message-ID: Il giorno 07/feb/2014, alle ore 12:04, Samet Atda? ha scritto: > ?Hi?, > > On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 2:31 AM, Giovanni Bajo wrote: > > Il giorno 07/feb/2014, alle ore 02:47, Samet Atda? ha scritto: > >> So there were two major costs (except my holidays) : (plane tickets + hotel) and registration fee. I used to live in a fairly close country to Italy, (Turkey) so plane tickets were around 200-300?. If we ignore daily expenses (like food, beers etc.) half of all costs would be the registration fee (which was around 300?). > > Just to set the record straight, the early bird, personal, full ticket (inc. training) was ?240 in 2012/2013. It didn?t include access to the conference dinner, which was ?40 (the conference dinner is included in EP2014). The lite ticket (without training) was ?190. > >> I talked to a lot of people in EP2012 and there were only a few people paying the costs. Others were supported by their companies. > > Again, just to put hard numbers out, the split between company, personal and student tickets in 2013 was 45%, 45%, 10% respectively (I don?t have the records here, so I?m quoting off the top of my mind, but it should be correct). I wouldn?t represent EuroPython as a conference where most people are being paid by their employer. > > ?Thanks for numbers. People buy personal tickets and companies pay cash to them. This happens. Yes we know, we have been very strong in communication to avoid this, and on the other hand the idea is to keep company prices not outrageously more expensive than personal tickets. If you ask them to pay 20-30% more, I guess most of them will comply just because they don?t want to go through the hassle of cost-deduct a receipt with an explicit red notice ?this is not tax deductible for companies?. > So I guess number of employee-supported people might be higher than 45%.? I agree on that EP is not that type of conference, but if this increasing trend in fees continues, than less and less individuals will have opportunity of attendance. I agree. I can assure that it?s an explicit goal of the EPS to keep the conference fees low. >> Then PSF kindly paid my costs in 2013 for PyCon. This year PyCon will be in Montreal, I can't attend because of dates. And I can't attend Europython because I'm not supported by any company, I missed early bird tickets and 400? is not cheap. > > Please notice that there is a financial aid program for EuroPython as well: > https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/registration/financial-assistance/ > > and you?re welcome to apply. > > Having this opportunity always make me feel that I'm in a great community. It would be great to be able to afford the registration fee as a full-time employee.? > > > >> I want to attend Python conferences. But if registration fees are expensive, it'll be like a private party, less number of people will show up and probably individuals not supported by any company will miss the fun. I'll miss the fun. > > I understand your frustration. The main issue with the price is always venue costs, and venues tend to get proportionally more expensive as the conference grows. We could probably get a very cheap venue holding max 200 people, and sell tickets for ?100 each. Would that make the conference less or more inclusive? Obviously, there would be wider range of people that are able to afford the conference, but at the same time there would be less tickets available, it would get sold out in less than a day, and the sale would sound like a gamble. > > ?I see and understand the point?. Sorry for my ignorance, do we know how PyCon handles bigger crowds? (If I remember right, PyCon registration was 300$ last year.) PyCon US gets a very large number of sponsors from the US market, which is far bigger in this regard. > Nonetheless, we understand that there is a strong feeling that the current prices are "beyond the threshold" for some people. Thanks for your honest feedback, it is valuable. > > ?Thanks for understanding complaining people. By the way, Giovanni, EP2012 was awesome. ? Thanks! -- Giovanni Bajo Python Italia APS EuroPython 2014 https://ep2014.europython.eu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 842 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: From hs at ox.cx Fri Feb 7 16:22:29 2014 From: hs at ox.cx (Hynek Schlawack) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 16:22:29 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] saving money with accomodation / mobile phones In-Reply-To: <52F4EE03.3070503@europython.eu> References: <52F4DE75.1070808@waldmann-edv.de> <52F4E71D.3030309@zopyx.com> <52F4EBF6.2040006@waldmann-edv.de> <52F4EE03.3070503@europython.eu> Message-ID: <0E0DDDC3-392A-4366-A37E-6FF405B5A9EC@ox.cx> On 7 Feb 2014, at 15:30, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > You can then find the link to the hotel list under "Venue": > > https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/venue/accommodation/ > > Unfortunately, the prices listed on the page are not much different > than what you can get from typical hotel booking sites at the moment, > but they may prove useful close to the event when prices tend to > go up: > > http://www.kayak.de/hotels/Berlin,Deutschland-c9109/2014-07-20/2014-07-27 Some more suggestions from a native: ? http://www.ibis.com/de/hotel-5513-ibis-budget-berlin-alexanderplatz/index.shtml which is really near the BCC (and I live next to it :)) and pretty cheap (there?s currently an early saver tariff that gives your 20.7.?27.7. for 282,60 ? which averages to 40,37 ?/night). ? http://www.mercure.com/de/hotel-8312-mercure-hotel-berlin-am-alexanderplatz/index.shtml is around the corner too but a lot more expensive (~75 ?/night). ? If you?re okay with bunks, https://www.meininger-hotels.com/ has rates as low as 25 ?/night. Cheers ?h From lists at zopyx.com Fri Feb 7 16:35:56 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 16:35:56 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] saving money with accomodation / mobile phones In-Reply-To: <0E0DDDC3-392A-4366-A37E-6FF405B5A9EC@ox.cx> References: <52F4DE75.1070808@waldmann-edv.de> <52F4E71D.3030309@zopyx.com> <52F4EBF6.2040006@waldmann-edv.de> <52F4EE03.3070503@europython.eu> <0E0DDDC3-392A-4366-A37E-6FF405B5A9EC@ox.cx> Message-ID: <52F4FD5C.7020401@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Berlin also offers a _lots_ of rental appartments in various prices ranges. Check Airbn or related sites. If you can find two or three Pythonista willing to share an appartment will make the accomodation cheap....of course you have to find some breakfast yourself but Berlin is pretty cheap when it comes to food and restaurant prices. Andreas Hynek Schlawack wrote: > On 7 Feb 2014, at 15:30, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > >> You can then find the link to the hotel list under "Venue": >> >> https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/venue/accommodation/ >> >> Unfortunately, the prices listed on the page are not much >> different than what you can get from typical hotel booking sites at >> the moment, but they may prove useful close to the event when >> prices tend to go up: >> >> http://www.kayak.de/hotels/Berlin,Deutschland-c9109/2014-07-20/2014-07-27 > >> > Some more suggestions from a native: > > ? > http://www.ibis.com/de/hotel-5513-ibis-budget-berlin-alexanderplatz/index.shtml > > which is really near the BCC (and I live next to it :)) and pretty cheap > (there?s currently an early saver tariff that gives your 20.7.?27.7. > for 282,60 ? which averages to 40,37 ?/night). > > ? > http://www.mercure.com/de/hotel-8312-mercure-hotel-berlin-am-alexanderplatz/index.shtml > > is around the corner too but a lot more expensive (~75 ?/night). > > ? If you?re okay with bunks, https://www.meininger-hotels.com/ has > rates as low as 25 ?/night. > > Cheers ?h _______________________________________________ EuroPython > 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython - -- Regards Andreas Jung andreas at andreas-jung.com about.me/andreasjung EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS9P1cAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjpocLv16j89t7GIig/z+yHxZyVwuq tvK3RVhfJAB4PKebTfFphVMlmlA5+kCf/rLKI2QV+RH3EST1MLmkU+FU+pop3HAr A4ox+4Vos5TytxI95z7HLgXplut6kIz8kQ1+vGoS+Gkvyv7ijkb/SWfeAlXy2S2s DtukP38pSryjAmt4lF/hcu99gnA/K52h02Dk2Unq/YVg8fn3s9EXZGQNR0sadM9+ 3/BQU9bME0cuEKuPPMsJWwUAK3hbX2uqxP+c/MIRG6fba9aQu7X0i91ze+ofmnZu SERNjFPP3PWg+RjykXTiT+7ByDxF7NPJF6q8hcEKd47NNiIWkZNxaDVOpradY6GZ mYMdSlVKhHDwhbzoDSKekbO3Ml+dGQWUf+dOz5Pl6mAjD58GwbTpizknbiwEHJRB A9ro+y2xJAqEHK5X2sfds6j/Veqv1rVtmnExooQcOhM9aFcu1tzJQncIfIxsm5Ps q6j3xHFLJr7CM5qsJakAfOUG4a4OMgw= =o9OF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Carina.Haupt at dlr.de Fri Feb 7 16:17:00 2014 From: Carina.Haupt at dlr.de (Carina.Haupt at dlr.de) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 15:17:00 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython] saving money with mobile phones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > > (Smart)Phone SIM > > ================ > > > > I am not sure how the situation will be in the summer (heard about > > some EU thing that should lower prices!?), but in case that is not in > > effect then, maybe there could be also some deal with a mobile carrier. > > > > We all know the ripoff that mobile carriers do when you are not in > > your home country, esp. when it comes to data transfer. Often doing > > only the slightest thing will cost you as much as you usually pay for a whole > month. > > Thomas is right with the roaming stuff. > > Anyway, in Germany there are multiple cheap solutions which do not require > any of the precious time of the organizers: The big discounters like ALDI and > Lidl have their branded mobile services; SIM-Cards can be bought for roughly > 10EUR with enough minutes and data to last for a week light usage (email, > navigation). > > Quite sure also Penny and Rewe and most drogeries have those cards; at > least one of those shops will be in crawling distance from the venue. Providing SIMs is difficult in Germany, since ever SIM card has to be registered to a person wherefore also an ID has to be provided. This would mean for us organizers to buy and sign for up to hundreds of cards. Therefore this will most likely not happen, if not another solution appears. But, as Harald mentioned it is very easy to get a good SIM card deal in Germany. Closer to the conference we will look up which deal is the best at that given time and give some hints out where to get which deal best. So just stay tuned and you will be informed. Ciao Carina > Harald > > > -- > > GHUM GmbH > Harald Armin Massa > Spielberger Stra?e 49 > 70435 Stuttgart > 0173/9409607 > > Amtsgericht Stuttgart, HRB 734971 > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From devel at jacobodevera.com Fri Feb 7 22:28:40 2014 From: devel at jacobodevera.com (Jacobo de Vera) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 22:28:40 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Andreas Jung wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Please see > > http://blog.europython.eu/post/75895165264/early-bird-personal-tickets-sold-out-next-charge-on > > Regards > Andreas Jung > EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications > > EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin > 21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center > Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing > ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS9ORdAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjDiELwLnQY4kqvZnM064/8LGX9IfC > 2utUF3Rhshj7TSiJcGj/DM5y2aVpn8Zve3zLErzNDF6Qam4I1WeerEprVOKvw0cO > 7FvfFdpLG4GewOG9/se9Bdha8r5Ych/GNgBLqg93SMzDfgiI6NeHSHlqmd7pZeB3 > sOyyCQFZlPmWbENitg7rvAiJF2+mKm5Lx8eihy0n6zrbxUQdCqcJTqXB5IG3F/hq > gVbB6NHEgeZDGVCn7FAPPHTUQ8bxJRFvv+QiQnSksE3HcGG3mG1RUDpXidr8j1As > vkeS2SfYeUH2FB2bOAuaIWwjfn2Y1HWWbtM+W66A3AuPsxSzK+XQoErqwPFjop9m > ywamH7cmyR9iOtCUt8uxNCgcC4NITkOv0KOvVJS7agyDhwWzZXKvF2ndnhzey8SZ > l5vOY+vGC7ynvWolHuhHNAhARORJsnknC0D99QGARnPFUURv8PKNTTd0cWU3PdT0 > tBJs3uQj0IPygQDeDWYVmeWcxtRDoQU= > =LSfr > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython I don't really understand the point in doing early bird tickets based on a closed number of tickets. How a bout a fixed date before which you can get the early bird tickets and after which you cannot? We are the early birds, here, paying attention to this list and still getting frustrated because, judging by how fast the first batch was sold out, we are going to have to enter a strong competition of hitting F5 faster than anyone so we can get the early bird ticket. This organisation method seems very unprofessional, and it seems to be based on figuring things out as we go along. Well, this is not the first year the conference is held, why not use the expertise from precious years? why this desire to do everything new and different? is it trying to prove a point? I signed up because I was in Pycon Ireland, thought it was great and wanted to scale up, and I was very excited until I started to read all about the organisation problems in this list. Now I'm not sure I want to go. I am always late for all conferences and for this one I thought, okay, I'm going to be on top of this one, so much that I will even get the early bird rate. Now turns out I have to have a virtual competition on a week day at noon! to get that. Nah. Please, get your act together, this is nonsense. Jacobo de Vera http://www.jacobodevera.com @jovianjake From r.bauer at fz-juelich.de Sat Feb 8 07:15:32 2014 From: r.bauer at fz-juelich.de (Reimar Bauer) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 07:15:32 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52F5CB84.5010204@fz-juelich.de> Am 07.02.2014 22:28, schrieb Jacobo de Vera: > On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Andreas Jung wrote: > Please see > > http://blog.europython.eu/post/75895165264/early-bird-personal-tickets-sold-out-next-charge-on > > Regards > Andreas Jung > EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications > > EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin > 21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center > Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing > ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython >> _______________________________________________ >> EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July >> EuroPython mailing list >> EuroPython at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > > I don't really understand the point in doing early bird tickets based > on a closed number of tickets. How a bout a fixed date before which > you can get the early bird tickets and after which you cannot? Just one question about this. How do you solve sold out by only having paid Early Bird tickets? I am asking because we won't be able to pay our bills. Reimar We are > the early birds, here, paying attention to this list and still getting > frustrated because, judging by how fast the first batch was sold out, > we are going to have to enter a strong competition of hitting F5 > faster than anyone so we can get the early bird ticket. > > This organisation method seems very unprofessional, and it seems to be > based on figuring things out as we go along. Well, this is not the > first year the conference is held, why not use the expertise from > precious years? why this desire to do everything new and different? is > it trying to prove a point? > > I signed up because I was in Pycon Ireland, thought it was great and > wanted to scale up, and I was very excited until I started to read all > about the organisation problems in this list. Now I'm not sure I want > to go. I am always late for all conferences and for this one I > thought, okay, I'm going to be on top of this one, so much that I will > even get the early bird rate. Now turns out I have to have a virtual > competition on a week day at noon! to get that. Nah. > > Please, get your act together, this is nonsense. > > Jacobo de Vera > http://www.jacobodevera.com > @jovianjake > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH 52425 Juelich Sitz der Gesellschaft: Juelich Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Dueren Nr. HR B 3498 Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDir Dr. Karl Eugen Huthmacher Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Achim Bachem (Vorsitzender), Karsten Beneke (stellv. Vorsitzender), Prof. Dr.-Ing. Harald Bolt, Prof. Dr. Sebastian M. Schmidt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From lists at zopyx.com Sat Feb 8 08:14:50 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 08:14:50 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: <52F5CB84.5010204@fz-juelich.de> References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <52F5CB84.5010204@fz-juelich.de> Message-ID: <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Reimar Bauer wrote: > > We are >> the early birds, here, paying attention to this list and still >> getting frustrated because, judging by how fast the first batch >> was sold out, we are going to have to enter a strong competition >> of hitting F5 faster than anyone so we can get the early bird >> ticket. >> >> This organisation method seems very unprofessional, and it seems >> to be based on figuring things out as we go along. Well, this is >> not the first year the conference is held, why not use the >> expertise from precious years? why this desire to do everything new >> and different? is it trying to prove a point? >> > Please stop trolling and calling us unprofessional just because you did not understand the concept of early. It has been clearly announced that we would give out 300 tickets for reduced prices (which is almost 1/3 or 1/4 of all tickets). Nobody did expect that the personal tickets would sell that well (thank btw. to all the people that made an Early Bird purchase). At least the organization team has a financial plan and a budget and it is _obvious_ to every child that can calculate that you can not sell an undetermined number of tickets to a reduced price over some fixed period if you don't want to run over your budget. Adding 50 more tickets to the Early Bird sale gives us possibly less financial flexibility with other things. So I once again reject your "very unprofessional" claim. Many people of the organization team have been Python, Zope and Plone conferences for the last ten years. Feel free to participate in the organization or please think about your allegations next time. Andreas Jung (EuroPython 2014 Organizer) Regards Andreas Jung EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS9dlqAAoJEADcfz7u4AZj5soLvjvmi7wy3BJwYtsdY7DSL6Nd Xa6xwTIPuzEOhUK2mt5oEEDBEgTjpHRMbCovBZ7hiHG1LxOdFIXYeUdC3Cnx54Ne r/jYqf5E0E2pvhhbRXaLVHhzUXcJ2kQ0LXJmZ2EVJPktpXvWnNHhjX7l8+xeeAjH Bq2fFlGS9yClR9zR90SojidxL6cYvehPrw+swuiW5n/HkP/o+8ilam86byJxwD7G g242mTyHz5Z2Q4ejFuU27vEo0ByZuE6q9/fOvRZE5hfa720TcEcxbWZTjOQ5bHNK xLksUhWF8eUzS3dYYX4yKcdKGcoc3ZhEYLYmTBC8todARfttbovUuO0z/5cGUQZL /aneh8r5TMxFhYCRvDJYfY7jgweVz/ZqPZSOr7ALFly6KC3+/NoK07S3TU/jPl9r W6eFr4eP5vTK9nQ1Ajvm4JQ80IdT6Q2ESjszmeF6blfTn5jNvnh5yQ8TGAJXTBsq 7MoZjxrkovcyIj7E4f/4tVQYgIx0kHk= =963e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lists at zopyx.com Sat Feb 8 08:31:16 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 08:31:16 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <52F5CB84.5010204@fz-juelich.de> <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52F5DD44.5030203@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Jung wrote: > Reimar Bauer wrote: > >> We are >>> the early birds, here, paying attention to this list and still >>> getting frustrated because, judging by how fast the first batch >>> was sold out, we are going to have to enter a strong competition >>> of hitting F5 faster than anyone so we can get the early bird >>> ticket. >>> >>> This organisation method seems very unprofessional, and it seems >>> to be based on figuring things out as we go along. Well, this is >>> not the first year the conference is held, why not use the >>> expertise from precious years? why this desire to do everything >>> new and different? is it trying to prove a point? >>> > > Please stop trolling and calling us unprofessional just because you > did not understand the concept of early. It has been clearly > announced that we would give out 300 tickets for reduced prices > (which is almost 1/3 or 1/4 of all tickets). Nobody did expect that > the personal tickets would sell that well (thank btw. to all the > people that made an Early Bird purchase). At least the organization > team has a financial plan and a budget and it is _obvious_ to every > child that can calculate that you can not sell an undetermined number > of tickets to a reduced price over some fixed period if you don't > want to run over your budget. Adding 50 more tickets to the Early > Bird sale gives us possibly less financial flexibility with other > things. So I once again reject your "very unprofessional" claim. Many > people of the organization team have been Python, Zope and Plone > conferences for the last ten years. Feel free to participate in the > organization or please think about your allegations next time. > > > Just a side note: also the US PyCon takes the same road with giving a fixed number of 800 tickets to early bird conditions to the public (with a expected number of 2000 atteendes). https://us.pycon.org/2014/registration/ If your budget is fixed than it is obvious that a larger number of reduced tickets have an impact on the prices of other ticket categories. Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS9d1DAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjNUMLwObleb52cxk0GLfvfSxGoHEw lYEh3PwpMUPe6vcWEc3elvoqi57Vq3gMb+3S12lM2bDusM7laC+Mvq0hVU/Qcvp+ Pfvwq/BvalUyqx8jHgivEPjwLX2yjxMG5f+AJogskFjwE0DdBlDnhqy7GIWDxtEr F/sG6DHDzjktTBSQGOmwDuCZ9Pn7xmUAqFbin3l39ymH2jP2izhdvV7So1i8LrGJ SVUVtd6ZgJqbs4Vr3K1ggkAp0TDm8PGO7oHBL/+DdEAXSfPtNBL1562/sCNvqcv/ kAXRAW3Bcv19iS6aJccaq/I12KlA4qZU5nNP1Eee3pzjM1Uq4mpgLfqmjsQ1kSjj UzRBI+iEmgVmXFV7VprS96YTMrDalobUgMdldD9jGvR+ESoEUe36Y2vb1uPhDtrv eRmsLBy5SSQD69eYf0C0KMwirqyDt1kGoAsv+rrfm8efWfIqHONxK5r85oUTgbni 2frLDBwwlFghQDkxd20tsLdHWBoR620= =OQT9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From arigo at tunes.org Sat Feb 8 09:49:37 2014 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 09:49:37 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <52F5CB84.5010204@fz-juelich.de> <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: Hi Andreas, On 8 February 2014 08:14, Andreas Jung wrote: > At least the organization team has a financial plan and > a budget and it is _obvious_ to every child that can calculate that you > can not sell an undetermined number of tickets to a reduced price over > some fixed period if you don't want to run over your budget. Andreas, this tone seems unsuitable to me. Are you calling the organizers of all previous EuroPython conferences childs that can't calculate? Are you calling childish all previous Pythoneers that naively expect a similar model in this EuroPython than what they are used to? If you are, you're alienating them very quickly. You are not explaining how previous EuroPythons managed to do it while your team doesn't. I'm guessing that arguments based on the new scale of the conference are acceptable, but they need to be presented. A bient?t, Armin. From europython at wodca.de Sat Feb 8 10:13:21 2014 From: europython at wodca.de (Achim Herwig) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 10:13:21 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <5063225.piovzrNJ2V@juma> Hi Armin, Am Samstag, 8. Februar 2014, 09:49:37 schrieb Armin Rigo: > Andreas, this tone seems unsuitable to me. Are you calling the > organizers of all previous EuroPython conferences childs that can't > calculate? Are you calling childish all previous Pythoneers that > naively expect a similar model in this EuroPython than what they are > used to? If you are, you're alienating them very quickly. You are > not explaining how previous EuroPythons managed to do it while your > team doesn't. I'm guessing that arguments based on the new scale of > the conference are acceptable, but they need to be presented. it seems to me that you did not follow this (admittedly very long) discussion. The points you raised have been answered already by Andreas and others in preceeding mails. I also cannot see how anyone implied anything bad about previous conference organizers. Best regards, Achim. -- Achim Herwig From arigo at tunes.org Sat Feb 8 10:51:31 2014 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 10:51:31 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: <5063225.piovzrNJ2V@juma> References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> <5063225.piovzrNJ2V@juma> Message-ID: Hi Achim, On 8 February 2014 10:13, Achim Herwig wrote: > it seems to me that you did not follow this (admittedly very long) discussion. Previous conferences used to cope with the risk of suddenly selling all tickets at an early bird price. It tells us that (1) either they had a trick that you don't have, or (2) more likely, it was a financial risk that smaller conferences can take, but the Berlin conference cannot any more due to size. Which of the two options it is, needs to be clarified better than by using the words "child that can calculate" in a dismissive sentence. A bient?t, Armin. From lists at zopyx.com Sat Feb 8 12:10:27 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 12:10:27 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <52F5CB84.5010204@fz-juelich.de> <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52F610A3.8080507@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Armin Rigo wrote: > Hi Andreas, > > On 8 February 2014 08:14, Andreas Jung wrote: >> At least the organization team has a financial plan and a budget >> and it is _obvious_ to every child that can calculate that you can >> not sell an undetermined number of tickets to a reduced price over >> some fixed period if you don't want to run over your budget. > > Andreas, this tone seems unsuitable to me. Are you calling the > organizers of all previous EuroPython conferences childs that can't > calculate? Are you calling childish all previous Pythoneers that > naively expect a similar model in this EuroPython than what they are > used to? If you are, you're alienating them very quickly. You are > not explaining how previous EuroPythons managed to do it while your > team doesn't. First I commented only on Jacob de Vera's expectations about what early bird means. Second: it is obvious that there is a certain financial risk organizing such a big conference with a budget of several hundred thousand euros. So what is please your point with this approach? Do you expect that we sell an unlimited amount of discounted tickets with the risk of a financial loss? Do you expect that the standard and ondesk prices would remain the same with this approach? Of course everyone wants cheap tickets but the costs per person for location, catering etc. remain the same and must be paid by someone. Once again: having a limited number of tickets for a reduced price is not uncommon for conferences. The amount of tickets and their prices depend a lot of the location and local costs. If you are interested in the calculation for the conference then please contact the finance team - we have nothing to hide. Regarding "this tone": calling use "very unprofessional" or comments like "pigheaded" from some other person is not very helpful and motivating for the people working very hard at the moment. Everyone is invited helping us making this the best and largest EuroPython ever - but *please* don't shoot us continuously in the back. Thanks Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS9hCiAAoJEADcfz7u4AZj3EMLvRPiflFHj2VBUZtxnEL5+LDL 8TSduTDO4EuXklgr1NmzKbFGkgX9TyeGlF+vT7uTZO8KnelN5yqDsRDyZYkq76OS 0QH8Iw5iBjeVUoU0P/vkpF8p1+sS0Fg1lDeVBTTknnC7TXluXcuFs+jg3rXHxTsm WXZjjHYc9yBj2MO91SNfsPEEmn/TMIndWHWACqD9sLJIuZNtfR1k6eO+9wdUS0ap EUg7O0DO8XTxtNiJpdN5swBgmzgh4hKMV2lvPlk4Rx2O7dZsZtanPKrYPyCo0bGh dR/gvoksXKWyDHxtP7YEYvY9iq18SGC/ZtuUJWRV9KLp+lCf0DjRft1T4ypnQyor 2moMpeL2QT+jg7e/Qq7cI2XsgTZW/rECZx1H0epBm7JPlsQelCbgOWmhaQxuH1sA 4HkzPZATmS7udP7zes1gpGsU4pdRiHjs+ykxO3qi44txd0blGZipOSL/ZS8ZpKU+ 8IvHKlUJ9J60rAysKqczniMtWfxGZqA= =0z6W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alex.kavanagh at tinwood.com Sat Feb 8 12:16:17 2014 From: alex.kavanagh at tinwood.com (Alex Kavanagh) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 11:16:17 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> <5063225.piovzrNJ2V@juma> Message-ID: (long time lurker here ... ) If the early bird ticket sold out so quickly that usually means there is a large demand for people to go to the conference. If the conference is actually oversubscribed then there's not much point in having early bird tickets as you could just adjust the price of the tickets to ensure that as long as 75% are sold the conference will break even. I do wonder if a strategy for future conferences could be that the early bird ticket price is set at a price where, if all are sold, the conference breaks even + a bit, and the higher price is used to generate a surplus that can go into a pot for other, conference related, spend (e.g. bursaries, etc.) Did last year's conference sell out? I haven't been to a EuroPython for a few years because of the expense - running a start-up - which failed :( - and now in another means funds are tight - I wish I could afford to go too. Kind regards Alex. On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Armin Rigo wrote: > Hi Achim, > > On 8 February 2014 10:13, Achim Herwig wrote: > > it seems to me that you did not follow this (admittedly very long) > discussion. > > Previous conferences used to cope with the risk of suddenly selling > all tickets at an early bird price. It tells us that (1) either they > had a trick that you don't have, or (2) more likely, it was a > financial risk that smaller conferences can take, but the Berlin > conference cannot any more due to size. Which of the two options it > is, needs to be clarified better than by using the words "child that > can calculate" in a dismissive sentence. > > > A bient?t, > > Armin. > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > -- Alex Kavanagh Tinwood Ltd -- Open Source Information & Communications Solutions Delivering Freedom, Creating Value w: www.tinwood.com e: alex.kavanagh at tinwood.com a: 20 Sefton Ave, NE6 5QR, Company No: 5233914 (Eng & Wales) Sorry if you got this by mistake - please accept our apologies; please let us know that this message has gone astray so we don't do it again. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From funthyme at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 12:20:18 2014 From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 11:20:18 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> Message-ID: Hello, On 7 February 2014 21:28, Jacobo de Vera wrote: > On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Andreas Jung wrote: > > I don't really understand the point in doing early bird tickets based > on a closed number of tickets. Because conference organisers have to work to a budget. Early Bird tickets are sold at a price which is (usually) below the marginal cost of an additional delegate. Most conference organisers have an Early Bird rate to attract their community, who in return for the reduced price are providing the startup funding for the conference, and supporting the organisers by trusting them to put on a good event when, for example, the schedule is still undetermined. > How a bout a fixed date before which > you can get the early bird tickets and after which you cannot? Because you would have no control over your budget. The procedure adopted by the EP2014 organisers is exactly what we used for EP2008, EP2009 and EP2010, and probably other EuroPythons, and still use for PyCon UK. It works. > We are > the early birds, here, paying attention to this list and still getting > frustrated because, judging by how fast the first batch was sold out, > we are going to have to enter a strong competition of hitting F5 > faster than anyone so we can get the early bird ticket. It seems to me that the organisers have judged it just right, supply meeting truly early birds' demand. For those who were too slow on the uptake, they are making 50 more EB tickets, at the risk of damaging their budget control. > > This organisation method seems very unprofessional, and it seems to be > based on figuring things out as we go along. Now, I think that you are being insulting by using the word 'unprofessional'. If you had said 'non-professional' I would have said "Hurrah! You understand! You get it!" because the organisers are *not* professional, but volunteers, doing this for love of the community, "amateurs" in the true sense (lovers of what they do). Please show them some love and respect in return or you risk them losing their love. > Well, this is not the > first year the conference is held, why not use the expertise from > precious years? why this desire to do everything new and different? is > it trying to prove a point? I do agree that there is too little carry over between conferences, but hey we're all geeks and NIH does apply. The EPS tried to do something about this in 2008, unfortunately subsequent conference organisers have not followed the principles established then. Maybe we can try and fix this in July in Berlin (EPS Board, please note). > I signed up because I was in Pycon Ireland, thought it was great and > wanted to scale up, and I was very excited until I started to read all > about the organisation problems in this list. There is a degree of trolling, and you have not helped ;-) > Now I'm not sure I want > to go. Make sure you do, it will be good, and you will get the best EP beer since Charleroi :-) > I am always late for all conferences and for this one I > thought, okay, I'm going to be on top of this one, so much that I will > even get the early bird rate. Now turns out I have to have a virtual > competition on a week day at noon! to get that. Nah. > > Please, get your act together, this is nonsense. No! It isn't. Please calm down. Peace. John -- (past EuroPython organiser and PyCon UK organiser, extreme Python aficionado, PSF Fellow). From hs at ox.cx Sat Feb 8 12:32:41 2014 From: hs at ox.cx (Hynek Schlawack) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 12:32:41 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <52F5CB84.5010204@fz-juelich.de> <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: Hi, >> At least the organization team has a financial plan and >> a budget and it is _obvious_ to every child that can calculate that you >> can not sell an undetermined number of tickets to a reduced price over >> some fixed period if you don't want to run over your budget. > Andreas, this tone seems unsuitable to me. Are you calling the > organizers of all previous EuroPython conferences childs that can't > calculate? Are you calling childish all previous Pythoneers that > naively expect a similar model in this EuroPython than what they are > used to? If you are, you're alienating them very quickly. You are > not explaining how previous EuroPythons managed to do it while your > team doesn't. I'm guessing that arguments based on the new scale of > the conference are acceptable, but they need to be presented. Andreas's tone certainly isn't the friendliest but please keep in mind that the organizers are volunteers that got attacked and insulted by sideline snipers and entitled jerks throughout this thread. It really hurts me seeing people catching flak for trying to make something great for all of us in their free time. I can empathize with their frustration and thus don't like seeing injury being added to insult by tone argumenting them when they vent their irritation. Nobody is paying them for swallowing every piece of dirt that gets thrower at them after all. Let's all be nicer to each other, hm? We're on the same team. From gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de Sat Feb 8 12:42:49 2014 From: gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 12:42:49 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <52F5CB84.5010204@fz-juelich.de> <52F5D96A.4040309@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <7FE54A83-2649-47BB-A49C-A166D12FB00F@darwin.in-berlin.de> Andreas Jung: > Please stop trolling and calling us unprofessional just because you > did not understand the concept of early. It has been clearly announced > that we would give out 300 tickets for reduced prices (which is almost > 1/3 or 1/4 of all tickets). Nobody did expect that the personal tickets > would sell that well (thank btw. to all the people that made an Early > Bird purchase). At least the organization team has a financial plan and > a budget and it is _obvious_ to every child that can calculate that you > can not sell an undetermined number of tickets to a reduced price over > some fixed period if you don't want to run over your budget. Adding 50 > more tickets to the Early Bird sale gives us possibly less financial > flexibility with other things. So I once again reject your "very > unprofessional" claim. Many people of the organization team have been > Python, Zope and Plone conferences for the last ten years. Feel free to > participate in the organization or please think about your allegations > next time. > > > Andreas Jung > > (EuroPython 2014 Organizer) > Regards > Andreas Jung > EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications While I can understand the thinking behind this comment, I think an escalation like this is neither helpful nor appropriate. There is a famous German piece of wisdom every German can be assumed to know: There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers. (Es gibt keine dummen Fragen, nur dumme Antworten.) Apart from that, I think such comments also don't align with the "Code of Conduct" of the conference which I assume also applies to its organizers: "EuroPython aims to be a welcoming event, where people meet in a friendly environment. Accordingly, we expect that all participants are expected to show respect and courtesy to other participants throughout the conference." (From https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/conference/code-conduct/) I'd kindly suggest making appropriate changes in the wording to make it very clear that attributes like "welcoming" and "friendly" also apply to the organizers and the preparation phase of the conference, in the hope that they will be respected as well. Best regards, Dinu From jacob at openend.se Sat Feb 8 13:39:05 2014 From: jacob at openend.se (Jacob =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 13:39:05 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <2904075.vTJF5HXPEV@sangiovese> l?rdagen den 8 februari 2014 12.32.41 skrev Hynek Schlawack: > > Let's all be nicer to each other, hm? We're on the same team. Hynek got it absolutely right. EuroPython is a community conference. It is run by volunteers for the community. When they make mistakes, we need to help them on the right track by offering constructive critcism. The mistake with the Early Bird tickets was that there was a limited number of tickets in each category, rather than a limited number of Early Bird Tickets for the entire pool. I'm sure the organizers will fix this. It doesn't make sense that you can still be a Corporate Early Bird, but not a Personal Early Bird. Budgeting the conference is really hard. The larger it becomes, the harder the job. Having a tight budget also makes thngs much more difficult, and Berlin has a tight budget. If the conference gets fully booked, there will be a profit of about 5% of the budget. If it reaches the number of people that came to Florence, there is no profit at all. The profit, by the way, is split between the EPS and the local Python organozation and goes back to the community in the form of seed capital for future conferences. When you sell Early Bird tickets, you usually price them so they cover the incremental costs for an attendee. These people contribute nothing, or very little, to the fixed costs and if every attendee had an early Bird ticket, the conference would run at a huge loss. The reason you sell Early Bird tickets are several. You get money so you can pay for intitial costs, like down payments on the venue. You allow some people who otherwise could not afford to go attend. You get some buzz in the community, which increases the interest for the conference. When I ran the conference in G?teborg, we had fixed costs of about ?1000. EVerything else was per-attendee. We also knew that we would have plenty of space to spare. This allowed us the luxury of having an open Early Bird registration. We knew (well, were almost certain) that there would be at least 50 people who would pay the full ticket price. In Berlin, the cost of the venue is in the tens of thousands of Euro, and there is a high fixed cost for Audio and Video equipment. There is also a hard cap on how many people you ca? fit, and it is quite likely that tis cap will be hit. With an open Early Bird period, there is a significant risk that the conference will be a huge success, being fully booked, but that it would kill EuroPython, due to incurring a significant loss. So, in summary, everything isn't exactly as we want it to be, but much of this comes from external constraints and the fact that we have a new venue and a new team running the conference. They are bound to make the occasional screwup due to inexperience. They need your understanding and support. Jacob Hall?n From g.brandl at gmx.net Sat Feb 8 15:31:06 2014 From: g.brandl at gmx.net (Georg Brandl) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 15:31:06 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52F63FAA.8080104@gmx.net> Thank you! Georg Am 07.02.2014 14:49, schrieb Andreas Jung: > Please see > > http://blog.europython.eu/post/75895165264/early-bird-personal-tickets-sold-out-next-charge-on > > Regards > Andreas Jung > EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications > > EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin > 21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center > Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing > ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From arigo at tunes.org Sat Feb 8 15:41:27 2014 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 15:41:27 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: <2904075.vTJF5HXPEV@sangiovese> References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <2904075.vTJF5HXPEV@sangiovese> Message-ID: Hi Jacob, On 8 February 2014 13:39, Jacob Hall?n wrote: > When I ran the conference in G?teborg, we had fixed costs of about ?1000. > EVerything else was per-attendee. We also knew that we would have plenty of > space to spare. This allowed us the luxury of having an open Early Bird > registration. We knew (well, were almost certain) that there would be at least > 50 people who would pay the full ticket price. > > In Berlin, the cost of the venue is in the tens of thousands of Euro, and > there is a high fixed cost for Audio and Video equipment. There is also a hard > cap on how many people you ca? fit, and it is quite likely that tis cap will be > hit. With an open Early Bird period, there is a significant risk that the > conference will be a huge success, being fully booked, but that it would kill > EuroPython, due to incurring a significant loss. > > So, in summary, everything isn't exactly as we want it to be, but much of this > comes from external constraints and the fact that we have a new venue and a > new team running the conference. They are bound to make the occasional screwup > due to inexperience. They need your understanding and support. Thank you Jacob for your clear explanation! A bient?t, Armin. From giovanni at pycon.it Sat Feb 8 16:54:58 2014 From: giovanni at pycon.it (Giovanni Bajo) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 16:54:58 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: <2904075.vTJF5HXPEV@sangiovese> References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> <2904075.vTJF5HXPEV@sangiovese> Message-ID: Il giorno 08/feb/2014, alle ore 13:39, Jacob Hall?n ha scritto: > l?rdagen den 8 februari 2014 12.32.41 skrev Hynek Schlawack: >> >> Let's all be nicer to each other, hm? We're on the same team. > > Hynek got it absolutely right. EuroPython is a community conference. It is run > by volunteers for the community. When they make mistakes, we need to help them > on the right track by offering constructive critcism. > > The mistake with the Early Bird tickets was that there was a limited number of > tickets in each category, rather than a limited number of Early Bird Tickets > for the entire pool. I'm sure the organizers will fix this. It doesn't make > sense that you can still be a Corporate Early Bird, but not a Personal Early > Bird. But this is just a ?political? mistake, so to speak, it doesn?t change things much budget-wise. I think the frustration is misdirected; there is nothing inherently wrong with the approach of selling a fixed number of early bird tickets compared to a fixed date. Obviously, the first system gives a simpler budget to work with. The real (unfixable) problem is that the number of early bird tickets is probably too low compared to the expectations, as it doesn?t even cover aficionados willing to buy tickets before the schedule is out (in previous years, we were selling early birds up to 3 weeks after the schedule was published). As already mentioned by Marc-Andr? and Jacob, the local organizers did absolutely *their best* to make the budget work, and we went through it multiple times as well. The venue that was chosen is in fact very expensive, and was chosen to accommodate the growth of the event, with the expectation of a jump when moving from a relatively small city (albeit very touristic) to a big European capital. The fact that they?re now putting 50 more early-bird tickets out, shows that they?re trying to fix the problem as much as possible. -- Giovanni Bajo EuroPython Society EuroPython 2014 https://ep2014.europython.eu -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 842 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: From devel at jacobodevera.com Sat Feb 8 21:21:26 2014 From: devel at jacobodevera.com (Jacobo de Vera) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 21:21:26 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Extra "Personal" ticket charge to Early Bird conditions on Monday In-Reply-To: References: <52F4E45D.2050809@zopyx.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 12:20 PM, John Pinner wrote: > Hello, > > On 7 February 2014 21:28, Jacobo de Vera wrote: >> On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Andreas Jung wrote: > > >> >> I don't really understand the point in doing early bird tickets based >> on a closed number of tickets. > > Because conference organisers have to work to a budget. Early Bird > tickets are sold at a price which is (usually) below the marginal cost > of an additional delegate. Most conference organisers have an Early > Bird rate to attract their community, who in return for the reduced > price are providing the startup funding for the conference, and > supporting the organisers by trusting them to put on a good event > when, for example, the schedule is still undetermined. > >> How a bout a fixed date before which >> you can get the early bird tickets and after which you cannot? > > Because you would have no control over your budget. > > The procedure adopted by the EP2014 organisers is exactly what we used > for EP2008, EP2009 and EP2010, and probably other EuroPythons, and > still use for PyCon UK. It works. > >> We are >> the early birds, here, paying attention to this list and still getting >> frustrated because, judging by how fast the first batch was sold out, >> we are going to have to enter a strong competition of hitting F5 >> faster than anyone so we can get the early bird ticket. > > It seems to me that the organisers have judged it just right, supply > meeting truly early birds' demand. For those who were too slow on the > uptake, they are making 50 more EB tickets, at the risk of damaging > their budget control. >> >> This organisation method seems very unprofessional, and it seems to be >> based on figuring things out as we go along. > > Now, I think that you are being insulting by using the word > 'unprofessional'. If you had said 'non-professional' I would have said > "Hurrah! You understand! You get it!" because the organisers are *not* > professional, but volunteers, doing this for love of the community, > "amateurs" in the true sense (lovers of what they do). Please show > them some love and respect in return or you risk them losing their > love. > >> Well, this is not the >> first year the conference is held, why not use the expertise from >> precious years? why this desire to do everything new and different? is >> it trying to prove a point? > > I do agree that there is too little carry over between conferences, > but hey we're all geeks and NIH does apply. The EPS tried to do > something about this in 2008, unfortunately subsequent conference > organisers have not followed the principles established then. Maybe we > can try and fix this in July in Berlin (EPS Board, please note). > >> I signed up because I was in Pycon Ireland, thought it was great and >> wanted to scale up, and I was very excited until I started to read all >> about the organisation problems in this list. > > There is a degree of trolling, and you have not helped ;-) > >> Now I'm not sure I want >> to go. > > Make sure you do, it will be good, and you will get the best EP beer > since Charleroi :-) > >> I am always late for all conferences and for this one I >> thought, okay, I'm going to be on top of this one, so much that I will >> even get the early bird rate. Now turns out I have to have a virtual >> competition on a week day at noon! to get that. Nah. >> >> Please, get your act together, this is nonsense. > > No! It isn't. Please calm down. > > Peace. > > John > -- > (past EuroPython organiser and PyCon UK organiser, extreme Python > aficionado, PSF Fellow). Hi all, After reading John Pinner's response to my email, and then carefully re-reading mine from last night. I must admit that there was some trolling involved and that I wasn't at my best with that email. Therefore, I must apologise for my harsh tone, for venting my frustration here on the list in a non-constructive way, and for trolling. With this I am not saying I take everything back, however. Early bird tickets aside, it seems like there is simply too much controversy around the organisation of the event. And again I'm sorry about my contribution to it. I also think that the general tone of discussion here has been at the level of my email or even worse. I am not saying people should apologise, this is my personal choice, but perhaps there are better ways for the organisers to handle criticism from attendees. Don't get me wrong, I know it must be hard to put a good face when you are breaking your back and somebody calls your hard work unprofessional, but I also think you should still try. Kind regards, Jacobo de Vera http://www.jacobodevera.com @jovianjake From ep at zopyx.com Sun Feb 9 15:28:41 2014 From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 14:28:41 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Reviewers Message-ID: <83034FB6-5DE6-4D6F-8A70-888D0F3D6680@zopyx.com> Please see: http://blog.europython.eu/post/76109857365/call-for-reviewers-get-involved-and-and-help-the Andreas Jung From amirouche.boubekki at gmail.com Sun Feb 9 22:23:59 2014 From: amirouche.boubekki at gmail.com (Amirouche Boubekki) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 22:23:59 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Reviewers In-Reply-To: <83034FB6-5DE6-4D6F-8A70-888D0F3D6680@zopyx.com> References: <83034FB6-5DE6-4D6F-8A70-888D0F3D6680@zopyx.com> Message-ID: Why isn't all the process *open*? Where are the sources? Why the organisation use private mailling lists? Why financial matters must stay hidden? 2014-02-09 15:28 GMT+01:00 Andreas Jung : > Please see: > > http://blog.europython.eu/post/76109857365/call-for-reviewers-get-involved-and-and-help-the > > Andreas Jung > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de Sun Feb 9 23:03:35 2014 From: gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 23:03:35 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Reviewers In-Reply-To: References: <83034FB6-5DE6-4D6F-8A70-888D0F3D6680@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <061D67DF-C438-4597-A3C1-D2BAE97B972C@darwin.in-berlin.de> Amirouche Boubekki: > Why isn't all the process *open*? Where are the sources? Why the > organisation use private mailling lists? Why financial matters must > stay hidden? Could you please elaborate a bit more on what you want to ask exactly and how that relates to the subject "Call for Reviewers" (if it does)? Otherwise this is really quite terse prose leaving a lot of room for misunderstandings. Thanks, Dinu From ep at zopyx.com Mon Feb 10 06:00:34 2014 From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 06:00:34 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Reviewers In-Reply-To: References: <83034FB6-5DE6-4D6F-8A70-888D0F3D6680@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <06E40F98-6E35-4046-8164-4D3AC16C44A4@zopyx.com> Hello Amirouche, I don't understand what you mean with "open". The EP orga team does not work differently like many other open-source or scientific conferences. If you talk about the reviewer process: no, there is no public voting for talks like it was in Florence. The reviews will be carried out by reviewer team where everyone can participate. The EP organization is also open to everyone that is interested and able to contribute to the success of the conference. The organization is as open as possible and I want to stress out that it is as open as other conferences in the same field - nothing more, nothing less. Regards Andreas Jung EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin 21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython On 9 Feb 2014, at 22:23, Amirouche Boubekki wrote: > Why isn't all the process *open*? Where are the sources? Why the > organisation use private mailling lists? Why financial matters must > stay hidden? > > 2014-02-09 15:28 GMT+01:00 Andreas Jung : >> Please see: >> >> http://blog.europython.eu/post/76109857365/call-for-reviewers-get-involved-and-and-help-the >> >> Andreas Jung >> _______________________________________________ >> EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July >> EuroPython mailing list >> EuroPython at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From helpdesk at europython.eu Mon Feb 10 06:17:13 2014 From: helpdesk at europython.eu (Andreas Jung (Europython Helpdesk)) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 05:17:13 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Proposals deadline extended until 16/02/2014 Message-ID: Call for Proposals extended until 16/02/2014 We extended the deadline for the Call for Proposals for a week until 16/02/2014 23:59:59 CET. So you have one more week to submit your favorite talk topic or proposal for a training or a poster. https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/proposals/cfp/ Andreas Jung From hodgestar at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 00:06:45 2014 From: hodgestar at gmail.com (Simon Cross) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:06:45 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Proposal formatting Message-ID: Greetings I've just submitted a talk proposal and the formatting on the view page is a little odd. Specifically the abstract is directly beneath the description with no break or heading of any sort. If this isn't intentional, could we get a heading or something above the abstract to make it clear where the description ends and the abstract begins? Schiavo Simon From horst at zerokspot.com Mon Feb 10 10:03:52 2014 From: horst at zerokspot.com (Horst Gutmann) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 09:03:52 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Proposal formatting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73C5129A-D5F4-4726-849E-2BFB8EDA1643@zerokspot.com> Hi Simon :-) The page should look slightly better now. Kind regards, Horst On 9 Feb 2014, at 23:06, Simon Cross wrote: > Greetings > > I've just submitted a talk proposal and the formatting on the view > page is a little odd. Specifically the abstract is directly beneath > the description with no break or heading of any sort. If this isn't > intentional, could we get a heading or something above the abstract to > make it clear where the description ends and the abstract begins? > > Schiavo > Simon > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hodgestar at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 10:18:54 2014 From: hodgestar at gmail.com (Simon Cross) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:18:54 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Proposal formatting In-Reply-To: <73C5129A-D5F4-4726-849E-2BFB8EDA1643@zerokspot.com> References: <73C5129A-D5F4-4726-849E-2BFB8EDA1643@zerokspot.com> Message-ID: Hi Horst Looks great! Thanks. Schiavo Simon From rob.collins at pythonpro.co.uk Mon Feb 10 11:50:59 2014 From: rob.collins at pythonpro.co.uk (Rob Collins) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:50:59 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Reviewers In-Reply-To: <06E40F98-6E35-4046-8164-4D3AC16C44A4@zopyx.com> References: <83034FB6-5DE6-4D6F-8A70-888D0F3D6680@zopyx.com> <06E40F98-6E35-4046-8164-4D3AC16C44A4@zopyx.com> Message-ID: Hi Andreas *> If you talk about the reviewer process: no, there is no public voting for talks like it was in Florence.* Would it be helpful to analyse the problem as follows? 1. EuroPython at Florence was a great success for three years 2. We are looking for the same sort of thing in Berlin 3. There are major changes the new organisers have made (e.g. much higher prices, no public voting) 4. There has been little advance explanation of the reasons for these (presumably well thought out) changes Please could you open up your planning process, particularly letting us know the reasons for changes before they happen, rather than having to respond to complaints? Thanks for all your hard work in putting on this conference! Best wishes Rob Collins PythonPro Ltd On 10 February 2014 05:00, Andreas Jung wrote: > Hello Amirouche, > > I don't understand what you mean with "open". The EP orga team > does not work differently like many other open-source or scientific > conferences. If you talk about the reviewer process: no, there is no > public voting > for talks like it was in Florence. The reviews will be carried out by > reviewer team > where everyone can participate. The EP organization is also open to > everyone that is > interested and able to contribute to the success of the conference. The > organization is as > open as possible and I want to stress out that it is as open as other > conferences in the same > field - nothing more, nothing less. > > Regards > Andreas Jung > EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications > > EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin > 21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center > Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing > ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython > > > On 9 Feb 2014, at 22:23, Amirouche Boubekki wrote: > > Why isn't all the process *open*? Where are the sources? Why the >> organisation use private mailling lists? Why financial matters must >> stay hidden? >> >> 2014-02-09 15:28 GMT+01:00 Andreas Jung : >> >>> Please see: >>> >>> http://blog.europython.eu/post/76109857365/call-for- >>> reviewers-get-involved-and-and-help-the >>> >>> Andreas Jung >>> _______________________________________________ >>> EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July >>> EuroPython mailing list >>> EuroPython at python.org >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython >>> >> _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fklebczyk at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 11:33:40 2014 From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:33:40 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP Message-ID: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> Here are my 0.02$ or rather 0.02 EUR to the recent heated discussion. Sorry for walls of text. Early bird sell out and frustrated voices ========================================= It's usually better idea to provide more than one price level connected with early booking a ticket. For example: 300 EUR - 100 tickets or short date period 320 EUR - 100 tickets or short date period 340 EUR - 100 tickets or short date period 360 EUR - 100 tickets or short date period 380 EUR - 100 tickets or short date period Such approach works good on other conferences. The budget of conference wouldn't lost this way and more people would get reduced price of ticket. The current 100 EUR gap between early and standard is just too much (for example for such price you can get full 3 day PyCon PL participation including accommodation and meals... or buy a cheap smartphone). Financial aid programs ====================== Financial aid programs are great, because in theory they allow people that wouldn't be able to afford participating in the conference to take part in it. In practice also people that could otherwise afford attending the conference apply for them and it is really hard to tell who deserves aid and in what amount. So it produces quite a lot of additional work and sometimes it is better to drop them and just make tickets for everyone cheaper. It's worth considering what's better for certain conference. Place, venue, costs, economical situation of Europe =================================================== I feel a bit sorry for the current EP organizers. They really wanted (in their sense) the best - probably it was let's do a superb and shiny European Python conference based on our previous experiences from PyCon DE. But lets make it more awesome - capital, big and professional venue in the center of the city, what would you expect more? Sounds great, doesn't it? Well, if you probably live in Germany (and earn as much money as they on average earn there) you can easily afford attending and it's cheap as beer. But wait a minute, attendees are a bit different that on PyCon DE, some of them come from Southern Europe, that is still recovering from financial crisis, some live in Central and Eastern Europe that in financial terms is still far behind western EU countries. I don't know Germany that much, but I guess there are also cheaper than Berlin cities in eastern part of Germany with cheaper venues etc. It should have been taken into account by organizers (hint: quality of venue and location costs sometimes are not the most important factors for a successful _community_ conference). Elite developers conference or community conferences? ===================================================== Lately I observe some worrying trend that some of the community conferences choose more and more prestigious places and venues with every new editions. Islands, excellent, top quality food, all-inclusive, top hotels etc. The result is that attendees are the ones with big pockets/wallets, so we get a meeting of successful people ;). The downside is that spirit of a community conference, with lots of students, newcomers and hobbyists goes away somewhere. I'm not against such conferences, they have a lot of value in them and different types of conferences are needed. The question is what we actually expect from EuroPython? What kind of conference it should be? How well Python community is represented in EPS? These are questions that everyone should ask themselves. I haven't seen any serious discussion about that. Regards, Filip From fklebczyk at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 12:11:33 2014 From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 12:11:33 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] My mail hasn't reached the mailing list Message-ID: <52F8B3E5.3040901@gmail.com> It looks (looking at the archive) that my mail sent to EP mailing list didn't reach it (maybe it was too long?). So anyway here are the contents (topic: Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP): http://wklej.org/id/1268342/txt/ Regards, Filip From ep at zopyx.com Mon Feb 10 12:39:34 2014 From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:39:34 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Reviewers In-Reply-To: References: <83034FB6-5DE6-4D6F-8A70-888D0F3D6680@zopyx.com> <06E40F98-6E35-4046-8164-4D3AC16C44A4@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <976A2333-89B4-4986-88C3-714B015B2577@zopyx.com> Hi Rob, I am sorry but we can not discuss every detail in public (and we must not). The organizing entities are the Python Software Verband e.V. in cooperation with the EuroPython Society and there is already a lot of communication and discussions going on. If a growing number of attendees there are always people that have their own wishes and complaints. There is no way doing it 100% right for everyone. Andreas Am 10.02.2014 um 11:50 schrieb Rob Collins : > Hi Andreas > > > If you talk about the reviewer process: no, there is no public voting for talks like it was in Florence. > > Would it be helpful to analyse the problem as follows? > ? EuroPython at Florence was a great success for three years > ? We are looking for the same sort of thing in Berlin > ? There are major changes the new organisers have made (e.g. much higher prices, no public voting) > ? There has been little advance explanation of the reasons for these (presumably well thought out) changes > Please could you open up your planning process, particularly letting us know the reasons for changes before they happen, rather than having to respond to complaints? > > Thanks for all your hard work in putting on this conference! > > Best wishes > > Rob Collins > PythonPro Ltd > > > > > On 10 February 2014 05:00, Andreas Jung wrote: > Hello Amirouche, > > I don't understand what you mean with "open". The EP orga team > does not work differently like many other open-source or scientific > conferences. If you talk about the reviewer process: no, there is no public voting > for talks like it was in Florence. The reviews will be carried out by reviewer team > where everyone can participate. The EP organization is also open to everyone that is > interested and able to contribute to the success of the conference. The organization is as > open as possible and I want to stress out that it is as open as other conferences in the same > field - nothing more, nothing less. > > Regards > Andreas Jung > EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications > > EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin > 21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center > Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing > ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython > > > On 9 Feb 2014, at 22:23, Amirouche Boubekki wrote: > > Why isn't all the process *open*? Where are the sources? Why the > organisation use private mailling lists? Why financial matters must > stay hidden? > > 2014-02-09 15:28 GMT+01:00 Andreas Jung : > Please see: > > http://blog.europython.eu/post/76109857365/call-for-reviewers-get-involved-and-and-help-the > > Andreas Jung > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > From lutz.horn at posteo.de Mon Feb 10 12:51:08 2014 From: lutz.horn at posteo.de (Lutz Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 12:51:08 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Reviewers In-Reply-To: <976A2333-89B4-4986-88C3-714B015B2577@zopyx.com> References: <83034FB6-5DE6-4D6F-8A70-888D0F3D6680@zopyx.com> <06E40F98-6E35-4046-8164-4D3AC16C44A4@zopyx.com> <976A2333-89B4-4986-88C3-714B015B2577@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52F8BD2C.2040000@posteo.de> Hi, Am 10.02.14 12:39, schrieb Andreas Jung: > and we must not Why this? Who is forbidding open discussion? Lutz -- https://www.dev-random.de/~lutz/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 173 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From michael at voidspace.org.uk Mon Feb 10 13:02:41 2014 From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 12:02:41 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Reviewers In-Reply-To: <52F8BD2C.2040000@posteo.de> References: <83034FB6-5DE6-4D6F-8A70-888D0F3D6680@zopyx.com> <06E40F98-6E35-4046-8164-4D3AC16C44A4@zopyx.com> <976A2333-89B4-4986-88C3-714B015B2577@zopyx.com> <52F8BD2C.2040000@posteo.de> Message-ID: On 10 Feb 2014, at 11:51, Lutz Horn wrote: > Hi, > > Am 10.02.14 12:39, schrieb Andreas Jung: >> and we must not > > Why this? Who is forbidding open discussion? The interminable (and unhelpful) discussion and argument on every single minor point makes it unfeasible for people who want to actually get things done. That is also why "dictator" is the most effective model of open source project management. Michael > > Lutz > > -- > https://www.dev-random.de/~lutz/ > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 ? Berlin, 21th?27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html From michael at voidspace.org.uk Mon Feb 10 13:08:41 2014 From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 12:08:41 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Reviewers In-Reply-To: References: <83034FB6-5DE6-4D6F-8A70-888D0F3D6680@zopyx.com> <06E40F98-6E35-4046-8164-4D3AC16C44A4@zopyx.com> <976A2333-89B4-4986-88C3-714B015B2577@zopyx.com> <52F8BD2C.2040000@posteo.de> Message-ID: <90A7A99C-1363-4560-A82E-4CDDBF1579A7@voidspace.org.uk> On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:02, Michael Foord wrote: > > On 10 Feb 2014, at 11:51, Lutz Horn wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Am 10.02.14 12:39, schrieb Andreas Jung: >>> and we must not >> >> Why this? Who is forbidding open discussion? > > The interminable (and unhelpful) discussion and argument on every single minor point makes it unfeasible for people who want to actually get things done. That is also why "dictator" is the most effective model of open source project management. > Plus, where there are contract discussions, employment details and problem resolution (with legal and privacy implications or potential liability for slander/libel) are all reasons why some discussions must be kept private. Talk selection, where some talks are necessarily rejected, are better done in a "non public" space so reviewers are free to speak their mind. There are lots of reasons / places where "completely open" is not the best model alongside the very genuine "we need to stop answering armchair critics and actually get stuff done". Michael > Michael > >> >> Lutz >> >> -- >> https://www.dev-random.de/~lutz/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> EuroPython 2014 ? Berlin, 21th?27th July >> EuroPython mailing list >> EuroPython at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > > > -- > http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ > > > May you do good and not evil > May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others > May you share freely, never taking more than you give. > -- the sqlite blessing > http://www.sqlite.org/different.html > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html From funthyme at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 14:35:24 2014 From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 13:35:24 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] My mail hasn't reached the mailing list In-Reply-To: <52F8B3E5.3040901@gmail.com> References: <52F8B3E5.3040901@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Filip, On 10 February 2014 11:11, Filip K??bczyk wrote: > It looks (looking at the archive) that my mail sent to EP mailing list > didn't reach it (maybe it was too long?). To reduce spam, this is a members-only list. You were not a list member, so your mail was deferred for moderation. You are a member now. Best wishes, John -- From ep at zopyx.com Mon Feb 10 15:34:46 2014 From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 14:34:46 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> Am 10.02.2014 um 11:33 schrieb Filip K??bczyk : > Here are my 0.02$ or rather 0.02 EUR to the recent heated discussion. Sorry for walls of text. > > Early bird sell out and frustrated voices > ========================================= > > It's usually better idea to provide more than one price level connected with early booking a ticket. For example: > > 300 EUR - 100 tickets or short date period > 320 EUR - 100 tickets or short date period > 340 EUR - 100 tickets or short date period > 360 EUR - 100 tickets or short date period > 380 EUR - 100 tickets or short date period > > Such approach works good on other conferences. The budget of conference wouldn't lost this way and more people would get reduced price of ticket. The current 100 EUR gap between early and standard is just too much (for example for such price you can get full 3 day PyCon PL participation including accommodation and meals? or buy a cheap smartphone). This can be taken into account for EP 15. > > > > Place, venue, costs, economical situation of Europe > =================================================== > > I feel a bit sorry for the current EP organizers. They really wanted (in their sense) the best - probably it was let's do a superb and shiny European Python conference based on our previous experiences from PyCon DE. But lets make it more awesome - capital, big and professional venue in the center of the city, what would you expect more? Sounds great, doesn't it? Well, if you probably live in Germany (and earn as much money as they on average earn there) you can easily afford attending and it's cheap as beer. But wait a minute, attendees are a bit different that on PyCon DE, some of them come from Southern Europe, that is still recovering from financial crisis, some live in Central and Eastern Europe that in financial terms is still far behind western EU countries. I don't know Germany that much, but I guess there are also cheaper than Berlin cities in eastern part of Germany with cheaper venues etc. It should have been taken into account by organizers (hint: quality of venue and location costs sometimes are not the most important factors for a successful _community_ conference). As stated earlier: traveling to Florence was more expensive than traveling to Berlin, hotel prices in Florence appeared higher in comparison what you get for the price. You have much, much more options staying in Berlin for a reasonable prices. Besides various hostels there is a huge market with rental apartments or single rooms for a fraction of a standard hotel room. > > Elite developers conference or community conferences? > ===================================================== > > How well Python community is represented in EPS? This is a question for itself. Please ask the EPS directly. Andreas From lists at zopyx.com Tue Feb 11 11:12:56 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:12:56 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Volunteer/Invitation to the orga meeting on Thursday this week Message-ID: <52F9F7A8.50004@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi everyone, please take notice our the Call for volunteers https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/conference/volunteers/ All Python ladies and gentlemen from the Berlin area that interested in volunteering are invited to join the next meeting this week on Thursday (see link above). Regards Andreas Jung EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications EuroPython 2014 - The European Python Conference in Berlin 21-27 July 2014 at bcc Berlin Congress Center Meet with the Python community: tutorials, talks, sprints and socializing ep2014.europython.eu - @europython on Twitter - facebook.com/europython -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS+feoAAoJEADcfz7u4AZj3pILuwfIxI6n/xTNP4IX+OzdkpK6 2Dzu/5AcG8Z7xPnYMpmuMyBCOTyF5udj7yIOWztsX5BvF/WedFhCEEqF3O0H62Ba 2Arb87eFJ9xnjIF4IPIGFoxPO5unR4NvmDq6lmTzBcHemknj0pwbyZUiiO/Nvm1n h1UmraoCcY6K9WUqjU8tbDVWsNV7fa6IXLZTU9yiYuC+0mf/nu/XOGHc8tiRqvpO VzoGmwU0+D93RiHBqlgfczIz4knf5ZYukmhAaaxbiRn8Am8FIOv0LzDIQBj2Y/cu 5oE4n5SPbaK9F68g5b78bDK6lvAAECxPykGU64JNakyLgVDxuPU342oA6ddHpgDH 3U0qiqV8IeUS6nxAmjzN5H2qGzZQdPlbxy8vpo9WxjjDMSioD+/4ohb5fk6zTSmi uQz4+MudRdaXsli0TMs10cg2nw5hwqWM/yhf8knaHcWr6qm6OfPDyxf46L3n+6yA rJDvcLB9iQP3tV0l77GXvOLELGHjKb0= =GPYX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fklebczyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 12:50:13 2014 From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 12:50:13 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> W dniu 10.02.2014 15:34, Andreas Jung pisze: > > As stated earlier: traveling to Florence was more expensive than traveling to Berlin, That's a false statement, because ... it's all very relative. The nearest two airports (Katowice, Krak?w) to where I live (and those are the two busiest airports in Poland after Warsaw) offer cheap flights to Bologna and Pisa and only one non-cheap flight to Berlin which is at least triple/quad the price compared to those to Italy. Going by train/bus will also cost more than cheap flight to Italy. If I choose going by car and using carpooling to take passengers, then the cost also will be similar to both destinations (as passengers cover the trip mostly and not the driver). So please don't say undoubtedly that traveling to Florence was more expensive, because we all know it's relative and factor of geography and available plane/train/bus connections. > hotel prices in Florence appeared higher in comparison what you get for the price. You have much, much more options staying in Berlin for a reasonable prices. Besides various hostels there is a huge market with rental apartments or single rooms for a fraction of a standard hotel room. > I agree that there is bigger choice in Berlin, but again prices topic is still relative. I was two times in Berlin last year and I can tell you that in Italy it was easier for me to find a good standard hotel that was very cheap just outside Florence. So to sum up travel + accommodation costs are relative thing for everyone (for some it might be better, but for some not this year) and in my opinion that shouldn't be an excuse to raise EP ticket cost so much (in my case total costs of attending EP are bigger). If costs of venue affect price so much, then cheaper venue should have been seriously considered. ==== Once again this conference is _European_ Python _community_ conference, so it should be in first place affordable to average European, not average west European or German. Whole buzz that we witness since more than week comes from not taking that fact into account. ==== Regards, Filip From Carina.Haupt at dlr.de Tue Feb 11 14:00:51 2014 From: Carina.Haupt at dlr.de (Carina.Haupt at dlr.de) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:00:51 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > W dniu 10.02.2014 15:34, Andreas Jung pisze: > > > > As stated earlier: traveling to Florence was more expensive than > > traveling to Berlin, > > That's a false statement, because ... it's all very relative. The nearest two > airports (Katowice, Krak?w) to where I live (and those are the two busiest > airports in Poland after Warsaw) offer cheap flights to Bologna and Pisa and > only one non-cheap flight to Berlin which is at least triple/quad the price > compared to those to Italy. Going by train/bus will also cost more than cheap > flight to Italy. > If I choose going by car and using carpooling to take passengers, then the > cost also will be similar to both destinations (as passengers cover the trip > mostly and not the driver). > So please don't say undoubtedly that traveling to Florence was more > expensive, because we all know it's relative and factor of geography and > available plane/train/bus connections. That is true. Traveling costs are very relative to your location. The statement was only that for most or perhaps just a lot of people it may be cheaper to go to Berlin than to Florence. > > hotel prices in Florence appeared higher in comparison what you get for > the price. You have much, much more options staying in Berlin for a > reasonable prices. Besides various hostels there is a huge market with rental > apartments or single rooms for a fraction of a standard hotel room. > > > > I agree that there is bigger choice in Berlin, but again prices topic is still > relative. I was two times in Berlin last year and I can tell you that in Italy it was > easier for me to find a good standard hotel that was very cheap just outside > Florence. > > So to sum up travel + accommodation costs are relative thing for everyone > (for some it might be better, but for some not this year) and in my opinion > that shouldn't be an excuse to raise EP ticket cost so much (in my case total > costs of attending EP are bigger). If costs of venue affect price so much, then > cheaper venue should have been seriously considered. Here you mix something up. It was never states that the EP ticket prices were raised because the travel and accommondation costs are cheaper. This is definitely not the case! It was just mentioned that for a lot of people the outcome of all together might be the same. Not as a justification of the price, but to set things in relation. Regarding the venue: There simply is no other venue which fits the needs of EuroPython. To pick a venue is difficult, is has to fit the number of expected participants, should also allow some growth, has to have enough rooms of the right sizes, should be easily reachable by public transport, cheap hotels should be nearby, and so on. If you search alone for something fitting for about 1000 people which is offering enough lecture halls and additional smaller rooms for workshops, you will quite fast run out of options. Big venues often just offer a lot of space, but not separated rooms. Smaller venues may offer enough rooms, but just small ones, no big ones which would fit for 800 or more people. We would have loved to have a cheaper venue, but we just could not get one which fits the need of EuroPython. For example, the Chaos Communication Congress moved to Hamburg due to the reason, that they did not find an appropriate venue in Berlin, whereby the main problem was to find a venue with enough big lecture rooms. > ==== > Once again this conference is _European_ Python _community_ conference, > so it should be in first place affordable to average European, not > average west European or German. Whole buzz that we witness since more > than week comes from not taking that fact into account. > ==== We definitely take into account that this is a European community event and we try our best to make it a great and affordable event for everybody. Therefore we offer the financial aid program to everybody who needs help. Regards, Carina > Regards, > Filip > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From funthyme at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 14:19:11 2014 From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:19:11 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ladies and Gentlemen, Please can we stop this destructive thread ? Let us just accept that the 2014 organisers submitted an excellent proposal, and that they are doing a cracking good job in fulfilling that proposal. For all sorts of reasons, geography, size of venue, relative cost of living etc, they cannot meet everyone's perceived requirements but are doing the best they can. If this year's EP does not meet your requirements, you can * Put forward your own proposal for a future EP, or * Go to another European Python event ( like PyCon { IE, UK, DE, FR,...} ) there will be one to suit you somewhere. Respect, John -- From funthyme at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 14:27:28 2014 From: funthyme at gmail.com (John Pinner) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:27:28 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Volunteer/Invitation to the orga meeting on Thursday this week In-Reply-To: <52F9F7A8.50004@zopyx.com> References: <52F9F7A8.50004@zopyx.com> Message-ID: Hello, On 11 February 2014 10:12, Andreas Jung wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi everyone, > > please take notice our the Call for volunteers > > https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/conference/volunteers/ > > All Python ladies and gentlemen from the Berlin area that interested in > volunteering are invited to join the next meeting this week on Thursday > (see link above). Will you be on IRC ? John -- From lists at zopyx.com Tue Feb 11 14:30:21 2014 From: lists at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:30:21 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Call for Volunteer/Invitation to the orga meeting on Thursday this week In-Reply-To: References: <52F9F7A8.50004@zopyx.com> Message-ID: <52FA25ED.2050004@zopyx.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Pinner wrote: > Hello, > > On 11 February 2014 10:12, Andreas Jung wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> please take notice our the Call for volunteers >> >> https://ep2014.europython.eu/en/conference/volunteers/ >> >> All Python ladies and gentlemen from the Berlin area that >> interested in volunteering are invited to join the next meeting >> this week on Thursday (see link above). > > Will you be on IRC ? > > John -- Find us on #europython-orga on Freenode. Andreas - -- Regards Andreas Jung andreas at andreas-jung.com about.me/andreasjung EuroPython 2014 Organization Team - Communications -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJS+iXtAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjP14Lv1GjRwz54Tv+MkiEjHonaT7n 3ic40S8P/fzIcpMODNrFB11Qmabl/vI4JSKxLXIYCbYeH6IHOQJxFLcK5fobby3I jN8s/i3T6I67omQ20TY9XDLZoMeuTbV+1QSrn4dWd2ebshVE1hE9R3qw4Zeqgwci yUXz5VeUET+OmkL1v4fzeV9Oug9l2fbXozV4UDrAfDhyr1r0BleGnmdcC9/AyEM9 FWbeK0shwXdst+C02Byev3qisD7shPLM5O/nWdvauipbDvREBZdTUaQFiaiQjrDp tZ17o6DkZDX0c7nrH6deg7WiLGeV5by165ret43uCVZKRlij07Hied025EH8Fk5m Hm1iRib/A52IxcP/5L6uTOrU+XjpcmrmPJoNFOhX8qqwb9/gSigaD5B9e0Q5MZrK lcBtxXfEBZp7ZYnIQMy2/j/VA66Q/IgcUnKzoKrLDL60Fyff1ptKnaZmox83lcKf epBt228quXyKzNJtLbTGaarwN2R84+4= =Gttf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fklebczyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 14:37:00 2014 From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:37:00 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52FA277C.70108@gmail.com> W dniu 11.02.2014 14:00, Carina.Haupt at dlr.de pisze: > > That is true. Traveling costs are very relative to your location. The statement was only that for most or perhaps just a lot of people it may be cheaper to go to Berlin than to Florence. > Nope, Andreas in contrast to you arbitrarily said traveling to Florence was more expensive. Also stating, that it will be cheaper for most is not true, because we would have to ask what do you mean by most? Most of last year attendees, most of this year attendees (probably from Germany) or for most Python developers in Europe? Travel and accommodation costs are relative. Therefore they shouldn't be used as an argument in this discussion. The thing that we can easily compare are the attendance prices. > > Here you mix something up. It was never states that the EP ticket prices were raised because the travel and accommondation costs are cheaper. This is definitely not the case! It was just mentioned that for a lot of people the outcome of all together might be the same. Not as a justification of the price, but to set things in relation. Here you are mixing sth up. I never said that costs were raised because of the _hypothetical_ lower costs of travel & accommodation. I clearly stated that high costs come from choosing extremely pricy venue in center of capital (capitals are usually pricy) in one of the wealthiest European economies. It's very clear it must result in higher costs. > > Regarding the venue: There simply is no other venue which fits the needs of EuroPython. Really, in whole Germany? Can't believe it. > To pick a venue is difficult, is has to fit the number of expected participants, should also allow some growth, has to have enough rooms of the right sizes, should be easily reachable by public transport, cheap hotels should be nearby, and so on. > If you search alone for something fitting for about 1000 people which is offering enough lecture halls and additional smaller rooms for workshops, you will quite fast run out of options. Big venues often just offer a lot of space, but not separated rooms. Smaller venues may offer enough rooms, but just small ones, no big ones which would fit for 800 or more people. We would have loved to have a cheaper venue, but we just could not get one which fits the need of EuroPython. > For example, the Chaos Communication Congress moved to Hamburg due to the reason, that they did not find an appropriate venue in Berlin, whereby the main problem was to find a venue with enough big lecture rooms. > Define closer the reasons. I can imagine a lot of venues - hint: every university has big and smaller rooms and they are usually empty in mid-July etc. Saying that only one venue matched the requirements was i Berlin and center of it is just an overstatement. > > We definitely take into account that this is a European community event and we try our best to make it a great and affordable event for everybody. Therefore we offer the financial aid program to everybody who needs help. The financial aid was introduced this year, because rising prices so high without any form of mitigation would cause even bigger unrest. Regards, Filip From ach at cantab.net Tue Feb 11 14:59:50 2014 From: ach at cantab.net (Alex Henderson) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:59:50 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11 February 2014 13:19, John Pinner wrote: > > Please can we stop this destructive thread ? Seconded. Please let us not allow a bunch of minor quibbles to mount up to a big enough thing to risk causing real damage. Do we really want outsiders to think "Europython? Oh, that's that bunch of people who infight about ticket prices and conference venues." Regardless of *whether or not* any particular concern may be justified, if it isn't worth the potential damage to the Europython community and its reputation, please consider that it *might* be worth keeping to yourself. Regards, A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fklebczyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 15:00:28 2014 From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:00:28 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52FA2CFC.8000100@gmail.com> W dniu 11.02.2014 14:19, John Pinner pisze: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > > > Please can we stop this destructive thread ? This thread is not destructive it is meant to make future EP better. Let's discuss things in the open. > Let us just accept that the 2014 organisers submitted an excellent > proposal, and that they are doing a cracking good job in fulfilling > that proposal. Please, don't let me remind how the process of call of proposals for EP2014/EP2015 looked like. EPS said that such process will start on Autumn 2012, and it started in May 2013 (after multiply delays and some of teams that wanted to submit proposals, resigned after half a year of asking when the call will start and how can they help). Then suddenly Python Verband appeared out of nowhere (where it was on Autumn?) and one of it's members was deciding in EPS board where to host next EP. Moreover till this day proposals weren't shown. Public doesn't know why Germany had better proposal than Belgium, what was in proposal etc. The whole process is very unclear. > For all sorts of reasons, geography, size of venue, > relative cost of living etc, they cannot meet everyone's perceived > requirements but are doing the best they can. I won't judge if they are doing best or not, because it's also very relative. I guess many or most of organizer are doing their best job, but we already seen calling other people "childish" or other rather aggressive reactions to normal (probably expected when organizing any conference) critic. > If this year's EP does not meet your requirements, you can > > * Put forward your own proposal for a future EP, or > * Go to another European Python event ( like PyCon { IE, UK, DE, > FR,...} ) there will be one to suit you somewhere. Of course, but we have right to express our likes or dislikes for certain things connected with EP2014. It's for the better experience of EP2015 and future editions. Regards, Filip From r.bauer at fz-juelich.de Tue Feb 11 16:56:49 2014 From: r.bauer at fz-juelich.de (Reimar Bauer) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:56:49 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52FA2CFC.8000100@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FA2CFC.8000100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52FA4841.3020102@fz-juelich.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Am 11.02.2014 15:00, schrieb Filip K??bczyk: > W dniu 11.02.2014 14:19, John Pinner pisze: >> Ladies and Gentlemen, >> >> >> >> Please can we stop this destructive thread ? > > This thread is not destructive it is meant to make future EP > better. Let's discuss things in the open. Well then please change the subject line, it is your choice to alter it. As I said before I am awaiting cronstructive help or a new proposal for the next conference I want to join. And I am happy for anyone who is doing a great proposal and has a team which fullfills all my wishes. best regards Reimar > >> Let us just accept that the 2014 organisers submitted an >> excellent proposal, and that they are doing a cracking good job >> in fulfilling that proposal. > > Please, don't let me remind how the process of call of proposals > for EP2014/EP2015 looked like. EPS said that such process will > start on Autumn 2012, and it started in May 2013 (after multiply > delays and some of teams that wanted to submit proposals, resigned > after half a year of asking when the call will start and how can > they help). Then suddenly Python Verband appeared out of nowhere > (where it was on Autumn?) and one of it's members was deciding in > EPS board where to host next EP. Moreover till this day proposals > weren't shown. Public doesn't know why Germany had better proposal > than Belgium, what was in proposal etc. The whole process is very > unclear. > >> For all sorts of reasons, geography, size of venue, relative cost >> of living etc, they cannot meet everyone's perceived requirements >> but are doing the best they can. > > I won't judge if they are doing best or not, because it's also > very relative. I guess many or most of organizer are doing their > best job, but we already seen calling other people "childish" or > other rather aggressive reactions to normal (probably expected when > organizing any conference) critic. > >> If this year's EP does not meet your requirements, you can >> >> * Put forward your own proposal for a future EP, or * Go to >> another European Python event ( like PyCon { IE, UK, DE, FR,...} >> ) there will be one to suit you somewhere. > > Of course, but we have right to express our likes or dislikes for > certain things connected with EP2014. It's for the better > experience of EP2015 and future editions. > > Regards, Filip _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlL6SEEACgkQ5aOc3Q9hk/kJDwCfS64Bg9EJH/CdZHuy28BO6+Yy 1qYAnRcIS9s0zrQYpzWPl6eZUeN/AvuU =nhOy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH 52425 Juelich Sitz der Gesellschaft: Juelich Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Dueren Nr. HR B 3498 Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDir Dr. Karl Eugen Huthmacher Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Achim Bachem (Vorsitzender), Karsten Beneke (stellv. Vorsitzender), Prof. Dr.-Ing. Harald Bolt, Prof. Dr. Sebastian M. Schmidt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From r.bauer at fz-juelich.de Tue Feb 11 16:49:12 2014 From: r.bauer at fz-juelich.de (Reimar Bauer) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:49:12 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52FA277C.70108@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FA277C.70108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52FA4678.3020601@fz-juelich.de> Am 11.02.2014 14:37, schrieb Filip K??bczyk: > W dniu 11.02.2014 14:00, Carina.Haupt at dlr.de pisze: >> >> That is true. Traveling costs are very relative to your location. The >> statement was only that for most or perhaps just a lot of people it >> may be cheaper to go to Berlin than to Florence. >> > > Nope, Andreas in contrast to you arbitrarily said traveling to Florence > was more expensive. Also stating, that it will be cheaper for most is > not true, because we would have to ask what do you mean by most? Most of > last year attendees, most of this year attendees (probably from Germany) > or for most Python developers in Europe? > > Travel and accommodation costs are relative. Therefore they shouldn't be > used as an argument in this discussion. The thing that we can easily > compare are the attendance prices. > >> >> Here you mix something up. It was never states that the EP ticket >> prices were raised because the travel and accommondation costs are >> cheaper. This is definitely not the case! It was just mentioned that >> for a lot of people the outcome of all together might be the same. Not >> as a justification of the price, but to set things in relation. > > Here you are mixing sth up. I never said that costs were raised because > of the _hypothetical_ lower costs of travel & accommodation. I clearly > stated that high costs come from choosing extremely pricy venue in > center of capital (capitals are usually pricy) in one of the wealthiest > European economies. It's very clear it must result in higher costs. > >> >> Regarding the venue: There simply is no other venue which fits the >> needs of EuroPython. > > Really, in whole Germany? Can't believe it. > I am not sure what focus this discussion gets now. I am quite surprised that you now talk about whole Germany. What is your intention? Please feel free to change the subject line if you want to talk on future locations e.g. for EP2015 As you might know we talk about berlin in 2014. If you want to held a EuroPython conference in some other city of germany feel free to make a proposal for that, just offer your help. Or just do it. But don't choose cologne. You may know that the local usergroup of pyCologne together with the DLR wrote a proposal to get the EuroPython 2011/2012 to cologne. At that time the scale of the EuroPython fitted into the locations we were able to pay for. At current scale it is much more expensive in cologne than the venue in berlin. The EPS decides where the EuroPython takes place. So just get your team and make a proposal for the next conference. Reimar >> To pick a venue is difficult, is has to fit the number of expected >> participants, should also allow some growth, has to have enough rooms >> of the right sizes, should be easily reachable by public transport, >> cheap hotels should be nearby, and so on. >> If you search alone for something fitting for about 1000 people which >> is offering enough lecture halls and additional smaller rooms for >> workshops, you will quite fast run out of options. Big venues often >> just offer a lot of space, but not separated rooms. Smaller venues may >> offer enough rooms, but just small ones, no big ones which would fit >> for 800 or more people. We would have loved to have a cheaper venue, >> but we just could not get one which fits the need of EuroPython. >> For example, the Chaos Communication Congress moved to Hamburg due to >> the reason, that they did not find an appropriate venue in Berlin, >> whereby the main problem was to find a venue with enough big lecture >> rooms. >> > > Define closer the reasons. I can imagine a lot of venues - hint: every > university has big and smaller rooms and they are usually empty in > mid-July etc. Saying that only one venue matched the requirements was i > Berlin and center of it is just an overstatement. > >> >> We definitely take into account that this is a European community >> event and we try our best to make it a great and affordable event for >> everybody. Therefore we offer the financial aid program to everybody >> who needs help. > > The financial aid was introduced this year, because rising prices so > high without any form of mitigation would cause even bigger unrest. > > Regards, > Filip > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH 52425 Juelich Sitz der Gesellschaft: Juelich Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Dueren Nr. HR B 3498 Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDir Dr. Karl Eugen Huthmacher Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Achim Bachem (Vorsitzender), Karsten Beneke (stellv. Vorsitzender), Prof. Dr.-Ing. Harald Bolt, Prof. Dr. Sebastian M. Schmidt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From tobias at tobixen.no Tue Feb 11 15:31:05 2014 From: tobias at tobixen.no (Tobias Brox) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:31:05 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52FA2CFC.8000100@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FA2CFC.8000100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20140211143105.GB21845@srv1.bekkenstenveien53c.oslo.no> [Filip K??bczyk @ 2014-02-11 15:00] > This thread is not destructive it is meant to make future EP better. The best point-of-time for such a discussion is immediately after EP is over; then all aspects of the conference can be discussed while people have the conference fresh in mind, people may have better opinions on the conference venue, and if the organizers feel the need to spend energy defending their decisions, at least it won't distract them from organizing the event. A mailing list is a good tool for keeping heated arguments, it may have an entertainment value, but doesn't serve much purpose except that. Mailing lists are seldom a good tool for constructive discussions. When the participants have good points and good ideas that everyone can agree on ... well, it's nothing to discuss, so the good ideas doesn't get any bandwidth and are soon forgotten, while the small details where people disagree tends to steal a lot of bandwidth. I think it's a much better idea to summarize "proposals for improving EP" on a wiki page. From fklebczyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 22:44:44 2014 From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:44:44 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52FA4678.3020601@fz-juelich.de> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FA277C.70108@gmail.com> <52FA4678.3020601@fz-juelich.de> Message-ID: <52FA99CC.5060708@gmail.com> W dniu 11.02.2014 16:49, Reimar Bauer pisze: > Please feel free to change the subject line if you want to talk on > future locations e.g. for EP2015 > > As you might know we talk about berlin in 2014. Yes, we are talking about EP2014 in Berlin to help EP2015 and next ones to avoid mistakes. Regards, Filip From fklebczyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 22:47:38 2014 From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:47:38 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <20140211143105.GB21845@srv1.bekkenstenveien53c.oslo.no> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FA2CFC.8000100@gmail.com> <20140211143105.GB21845@srv1.bekkenstenveien53c.oslo.no> Message-ID: <52FA9A7A.2040409@gmail.com> W dniu 11.02.2014 15:31, Tobias Brox pisze: > I think it's a much better idea to summarize "proposals for > improving EP" on a wiki page. I agree with that, but for now nothing but mailing list exist as EP is concerned and potential future EP organizers read it, so it's a good communication channel. Regards, Filip From gcbirzan at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 23:27:39 2014 From: gcbirzan at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?George=2DCristian_B=C3=AErzan?=) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 00:27:39 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2014 1:59 PM, "Filip K??bczyk" wrote: > > W dniu 10.02.2014 15:34, Andreas Jung pisze: > >> >> As stated earlier: traveling to Florence was more expensive than traveling to Berlin, > > > That's a false statement, because ... it's all very relative. The nearest two airports (Katowice, Krak?w) to where I live (and those are the two busiest airports in Poland after Warsaw) offer cheap flights to Bologna and Pisa and only one non-cheap flight to Berlin which is at least triple/quad the price compared to those to Italy. Not really, no. >From Krakow to Berlin, 80 EUR return ( http://imgur.com/SR7UDzZ). Not only is that dirt cheap, but I cannot find the 20 30 EUR direct flight to Pisa (or any direct flights to Pisa or Bologna, for that matter ). Also, put bluntly, even if for a few people it's more expensive to travel to Berlin, on average it's way cheaper. Taking that statement (like you did in a later email) to mean it's cheaper for everyone is silly, at best. As for why people say it's cheaper for most... It's because it is. For me, from Sofia, it's 130 EUR direct to Berlin, vs a 7 hour 180 EUR nightmare to Florence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fklebczyk at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 23:40:04 2014 From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:40:04 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52FAA6C4.6020501@gmail.com> W dniu 11.02.2014 23:27, George-Cristian B?rzan pisze: > From Krakow to Berlin, 80 EUR return ( http://imgur.com/SR7UDzZ). Not > only is that dirt cheap, but I cannot find the 20 30 EUR direct flight > to Pisa (or any direct flights to Pisa or Bologna, for that matter ). Just checked RyanAir both to Bologna and Pisa, twice/triple as cheaper at the moment than Berlin. As I've said this is relative - for some it will be cheaper for some pricier. No sense in discussing that. The only fixed price for all is the price of conference pass and that went significantly up. Regards, Filip From r.bauer at fz-juelich.de Wed Feb 12 00:14:42 2014 From: r.bauer at fz-juelich.de (Reimar Bauer) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 00:14:42 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52FA99CC.5060708@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FA277C.70108@gmail.com> <52FA4678.3020601@fz-juelich.de> <52FA99CC.5060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52FAAEE2.4030301@fz-juelich.de> Am 11.02.2014 22:44, schrieb Filip K??bczyk: > W dniu 11.02.2014 16:49, Reimar Bauer pisze: >> Please feel free to change the subject line if you want to talk on >> future locations e.g. for EP2015 >> >> As you might know we talk about berlin in 2014. > > Yes, we are talking about EP2014 in Berlin to help EP2015 and next ones > to avoid mistakes. > I am waiting for your proposal for EP 2015. I hope you satisfy me. best regards Reimar > Regards, > Filip > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH 52425 Juelich Sitz der Gesellschaft: Juelich Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Dueren Nr. HR B 3498 Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDir Dr. Karl Eugen Huthmacher Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Achim Bachem (Vorsitzender), Karsten Beneke (stellv. Vorsitzender), Prof. Dr.-Ing. Harald Bolt, Prof. Dr. Sebastian M. Schmidt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From iryna.anatoliyivna at gmail.com Wed Feb 12 00:20:54 2014 From: iryna.anatoliyivna at gmail.com (Iryna Dobenka) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:20:54 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52FAAEE2.4030301@fz-juelich.de> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FA277C.70108@gmail.com> <52FA4678.3020601@fz-juelich.de> <52FA99CC.5060708@gmail.com> <52FAAEE2.4030301@fz-juelich.de> Message-ID: I wonder - how long you can complain on expensive tickets\flights\hotels. Currently there is 3 early-bird tickets (*Thanks organizers!*). All you can do now - just use this opportunity .. or not. It's your own choice. Hopefully your financial situation is not the worst on the Earth. Wish you nothing but the best :) On 12 February 2014 01:14, Reimar Bauer wrote: > Am 11.02.2014 22:44, schrieb Filip K??bczyk: > > W dniu 11.02.2014 16:49, Reimar Bauer pisze: > >> Please feel free to change the subject line if you want to talk on > >> future locations e.g. for EP2015 > >> > >> As you might know we talk about berlin in 2014. > > > > Yes, we are talking about EP2014 in Berlin to help EP2015 and next ones > > to avoid mistakes. > > > > I am waiting for your proposal for EP 2015. I hope you satisfy me. > > best regards > Reimar > > > > Regards, > > Filip > > _______________________________________________ > > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > > EuroPython mailing list > > EuroPython at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH > 52425 Juelich > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Juelich > Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Dueren Nr. HR B 3498 > Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDir Dr. Karl Eugen Huthmacher > Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Achim Bachem (Vorsitzender), > Karsten Beneke (stellv. Vorsitzender), Prof. Dr.-Ing. Harald Bolt, > Prof. Dr. Sebastian M. Schmidt > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gcbirzan at gmail.com Wed Feb 12 20:47:27 2014 From: gcbirzan at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?George=2DCristian_B=C3=AErzan?=) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 21:47:27 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: <52FAA6C4.6020501@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FAA6C4.6020501@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:40 AM, Filip K??bczyk wrote: > Just checked RyanAir both to Bologna and Pisa, twice/triple as cheaper at > the moment than Berlin. As I've said this is relative - for some it will be > cheaper for some pricier. No sense in discussing that. The only fixed price > for all is the price of conference pass and that went significantly up. > No, but I hate that you're lying about this. Ryanair only has flights to Pisa on Tuesday (night) and Saturday, so you miss two/three days, while the one to Bologna is landing at noon, so you only miss half of Tuesday. They also both cost ~110EUR. I get it that you disagree with the way the conference is organised (and where it is), but please try to be if not constructive, at least correct in your claims. -- George-Cristian B?rzan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fklebczyk at gmail.com Wed Feb 12 21:08:04 2014 From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 21:08:04 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Some general thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP In-Reply-To: References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FAA6C4.6020501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52FBD4A4.2030608@gmail.com> W dniu 12.02.2014 20:47, George-Cristian B?rzan pisze: > No, but I hate that you're lying about this. Ryanair only has flights to > Pisa on Tuesday (night) and Saturday, so you miss two/three days, while > the one to Bologna is landing at noon, so you only miss half of Tuesday. > They also both cost ~110EUR. I get it that you disagree with the way the > conference is organised (and where it is), but please try to be if not > constructive, at least correct in your claims. Sorry, no sense in further discussing - if you know better on what day I arrive/depart on conferences and what is flight cost then I don't see any sense in discussing (have you thought that some people usually arrive before conferences? Saturday->Saturday, yes, yes it's cheaper than going to Berlin) . Read the first post once again from start till the end what was it all about. It was about _relativity_ of transport+accommodation costs and that only fixed cost that stays no matter of location is the conference pass. Sorry not continuing discussion with you. This is getting ridiculous. Regards, Filip From r.bauer at fz-juelich.de Thu Feb 13 08:26:04 2014 From: r.bauer at fz-juelich.de (Reimar Bauer) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 08:26:04 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Stop. Breathe. Walk away. ( Some personal thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP) In-Reply-To: <52FBD4A4.2030608@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FAA6C4.6020501@gmail.com> <52FBD4A4.2030608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52FC738C.2070309@fz-juelich.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 do not feed the energy beast Am 12.02.2014 21:08, schrieb Filip K??bczyk: > W dniu 12.02.2014 20:47, George-Cristian B?rzan pisze: >> No, but I hate that you're lying about this. Ryanair only has >> flights to Pisa on Tuesday (night) and Saturday, so you miss >> two/three days, while the one to Bologna is landing at noon, so >> you only miss half of Tuesday. They also both cost ~110EUR. I get >> it that you disagree with the way the conference is organised >> (and where it is), but please try to be if not constructive, at >> least correct in your claims. > > Sorry, no sense in further discussing - if you know better on what > day I arrive/depart on conferences and what is flight cost then I > don't see any sense in discussing (have you thought that some > people usually arrive before conferences? Saturday->Saturday, yes, > yes it's cheaper than going to Berlin) . Read the first post once > again from start till the end what was it all about. It was about > _relativity_ of transport+accommodation costs and that only fixed > cost that stays no matter of location is the conference pass. > > Sorry not continuing discussion with you. This is getting > ridiculous. > > Regards, Filip _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 Berlin, 21th27th July EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlL8c4wACgkQ5aOc3Q9hk/lsPgCgoB2aaFWTEDCWiPr3kRbY5UIM MEMAn2mdLv57sDhhnAvSBAtmft+N/ZwH =Rhed -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH 52425 Juelich Sitz der Gesellschaft: Juelich Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Dueren Nr. HR B 3498 Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDir Dr. Karl Eugen Huthmacher Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Achim Bachem (Vorsitzender), Karsten Beneke (stellv. Vorsitzender), Prof. Dr.-Ing. Harald Bolt, Prof. Dr. Sebastian M. Schmidt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From fklebczyk at gmail.com Thu Feb 13 11:06:42 2014 From: fklebczyk at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RmlsaXAgS8WCxJliY3p5aw==?=) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 11:06:42 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Stop. Breathe. Walk away. ( Some personal thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP) In-Reply-To: <52FC738C.2070309@fz-juelich.de> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FAA6C4.6020501@gmail.com> <52FBD4A4.2030608@gmail.com> <52FC738C.2070309@fz-juelich.de> Message-ID: <52FC9932.2010004@gmail.com> W dniu 13.02.2014 08:26, Reimar Bauer pisze: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > do not feed the energy beast Reimar, I advise you and others reading the Code of Conduct and think how calling someone a beast corresponds with it. I see a lot of people have problem with keeping right level of dialogue here - to any opinion other than theirs they react with insults and high level of aggression. I was called beast and liar, whose next to burn the witch? Regards, Filip From mal at python.org Thu Feb 13 11:53:52 2014 From: mal at python.org (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 11:53:52 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Stop. Breathe. Walk away. ( Some personal thoughts about EP2014 and future of EP) In-Reply-To: <52FC9932.2010004@gmail.com> References: <52F8AB04.3060604@gmail.com> <3BD30FB4-9312-4ABE-864B-BD69B7904A06@zopyx.com> <52FA0E75.7010106@gmail.com> <52FAA6C4.6020501@gmail.com> <52FBD4A4.2030608@gmail.com> <52FC738C.2070309@fz-juelich.de> <52FC9932.2010004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52FCA440.9040406@python.org> Please calm down everyone ! Thank you, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director Python Software Foundation http://www.python.org/psf/ From mal at europython.eu Thu Feb 13 14:42:33 2014 From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:42:33 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Preparing for the CFP 2015: CFPs for 2011, 2013 and 2014 online Message-ID: <52FCCBC9.6020505@europython.eu> In order to give local teams a better idea of what organizing a EuroPython conference is all about, we have put the call for proposals for recent editions of the EuroPython conference online: * Call for Proposals 2011 - http://www.europython-society.org/cfp-2011 * Call for Proposals 2013 - http://www.europython-society.org/cfp-2013 * Call for Proposals 2014 - http://www.europython-society.org/cfp-2014 For the 2015 edition we are aiming at a new setup, which will hopefully make things a lot easier for the local teams submitting proposals. The details are still in the works, but we?ve already put a high level description up on our Call for Participation page: * http://www.europython-society.org/cfp Note that we are also changing the term to "Call for Participation", since the "Call for Proposals" is often used for requesting submission of talks and papers to a conference. Enjoy, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ PS: Also available for online reading at: http://www.europython-society.org/post/76523929881/preparing-for-the-cfp-2015-cfps-for-2011-2013-and From rob.collins at pythonpro.co.uk Thu Feb 13 16:22:12 2014 From: rob.collins at pythonpro.co.uk (Rob Collins) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:22:12 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Hey, what about the Zen of Python conferences? Message-ID: Let's keep the affordable "community" origins of EuroPython. *** *Simple is better than complex.* *** Some people are asking for clarity and openness. *** *Explicit is better than implicit.* *** *** *If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.* *** Some people are raising exceptions for discussion. *** *Errors should never pass silently.* *** The alternative to *EAFP* is *LBYL*, not *"Tough. This is how it is. Keep quiet."* So let's take a specific example: in the Verband conference proposal, under "Expected differences from EuroPython 2010/2011/2012" they listed only two items: Scholar students, and Barcamp. No mention of abandoning the binding requirement to use the Python Italia website platform. No mention of replacing community voting with a closed talk selection process. I like the idea of everyone getting a say on all the talks proposed. Let's apply the Zen of Python, and discuss why we can't still have community voting for EuroPython 2014. Rob Collins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hs at ox.cx Thu Feb 13 16:52:40 2014 From: hs at ox.cx (Hynek Schlawack) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:52:40 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Hey, what about the Zen of Python conferences? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92007FD0-3AAA-4707-9C72-D432138487BD@ox.cx> On 13 Feb 2014, at 16:22, Rob Collins wrote: > I like the idea of everyone getting a say on all the talks proposed. > Let's > apply the Zen of Python, and discuss why we can't still have community > voting for EuroPython 2014. No, please *don?t*. Feel free to start that discussion for 2015 (but *after* the 2014 conference), but *please* stop calling for action to heckle the current organizers with discussion where absolutely nothing good can come out of it except for more bad blood. There has been enough of that. A program committee is an absolutely valid choice that has been practiced by PyCon US for years and it has produced exceptional schedules; I have no reasons to doubt, that it will be different for EP 2014. If *you* have reasons to harbor such doubts, you should join as a reviewer: https://ep2014.europython.eu/de/proposals/cfr/ . The organizers have made the choice to take up with more work for the sake of a great schedule; we should respect that and not fall into their backs, no matter what your opinion on the methodology is. Closing, everyone overwhelmed with (out)rage should spend some time on https://twitter.com/search?q=%23PositivePython&f=realtime instead of butchering each other here. What has been exercised here in the past weeks is a disgrace and not the Python community I know and love. From ep at zopyx.com Thu Feb 13 17:01:34 2014 From: ep at zopyx.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:01:34 +0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Hey, what about the Zen of Python conferences? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please join the team as reviewer or as volunteer. Please be constructive in order to help organizing the 2014 conference?otherwise please keep your energy for the 2015 organization. The 2014 organization does not happen _here_. Regards, Andreas Am 13.02.2014 um 16:22 schrieb Rob Collins : > Let's keep the affordable "community" origins of EuroPython. > *** Simple is better than complex. *** > > Some people are asking for clarity and openness. > *** Explicit is better than implicit. *** > *** If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea. *** > > Some people are raising exceptions for discussion. > *** Errors should never pass silently. *** > > The alternative to EAFP is LBYL, not "Tough. This is how it is. Keep quiet." > > So let's take a specific example: in the Verband conference proposal, under > "Expected differences from EuroPython 2010/2011/2012" they listed only two items: Scholar students, and Barcamp. No mention of abandoning the binding requirement to use the Python Italia website platform. No mention of replacing community voting with a closed talk selection process. > > I like the idea of everyone getting a say on all the talks proposed. Let's apply the Zen of Python, and discuss why we can't still have community voting for EuroPython 2014. > > Rob Collins > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython 2014 ? Berlin, 21th?27th July > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From mal at europython.eu Thu Feb 13 17:06:19 2014 From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:06:19 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Hey, what about the Zen of Python conferences? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52FCED7B.7000205@europython.eu> Hi Rob, On 13.02.2014 16:22, Rob Collins wrote: > I like the idea of everyone getting a say on all the talks proposed. Let's > apply the Zen of Python, and discuss why we can't still have community > voting for EuroPython 2014. To a certain extent this is still possible; it is only somewhat hidden: You can register on the website and the request reviewer status via your profile page. https://ep2014.europython.eu/de/proposals/cfr/ Something the page is currently missing is an explanation how to actually do the review (e.g. where to find the list of talks), but at least signing up as reviewer is possible for everyone registered on the website. Cheers, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/ From mal at europython.eu Fri Feb 14 14:11:43 2014 From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 14:11:43 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Historic EuroPython resources Message-ID: <52FE160F.7020105@europython.eu> The EuroPython Society is currently putting together a list of resources from previous EuroPython conferences: http://www.europython-society.org/europython If you have interesting details to share, please let us know. Examples: * conference brochures * links to photos * links to copies of websites * sponsorship brochures * statistics (e.g. number of attendees, talks, etc.) * feedback form evaluations Thanks, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Director EuroPython Society http://www.europython-society.org/