[Visualpython-devel] Re: [Idle-dev] Py-CVS Release 2.1 Merge

[StephenM.Gava]

David Scherer wrote:
[...]
> Using the editor for this type of tutorial would be just as awkward.
> For example, you would have to write "print" everywhere to get any
> output, and the output wouldn't be usefully lined up with the program.
>
> The bottom line (in my mind) is that there is, in fact, a place for both
> the editor and the shell - but not necessarily in the same curriculum.
> I can imagine an uber-debugger that might be a true superset of both
> editor and shell, but I don't have time to write it ;)

This is really what I was trying to say in my previous post (idlefork - 
horses for courses). Both environments are very useful. But I would also add 
that neither environment is, or needs to be, transcendent, that they should 
be available to all to use in combination.

I can see where the focus is on learning python as a graphic scripting 
environment starting in the editor is very wise, but idle is meant for more 
than only this purpose. For teaching programming itself from scratch, using 
python as a general purpose programming language, the shell is a fantastic 
tool. 

In either case I think both must still have their place in a varying mix and 
with varying use over time, some of those graphic scripting physics students 
might want to do some advance string manipulation for instance at some stage, 
a subject that can be really beneficially explored in the shell, but if they 
had been turned off its use because it was not centrally useful in their 
original use for python, then they might lose out on its benefits.

Really I think thie issue can be addressed in IDLE by just an easily 
configurable and saveable startup state, according to preference or need. 
This is exactly (one of ) the kind(s) of configurability I intend to work on 
as my main focus on idlefork. And the issues Kurt raises on more easily using 
the shell interactively with the editor for larger coding experiments can be 
addressed too.

So this definitely _shouldn't_ be any kind of shell vs editor educational 
value holy war. Teachers and users should be able to configure IDLE to start 
up in the state most suitable for the course they are teaching or the task 
generally at hand for them, that's all. 

Stephen.
-- 
Stephen M. Gava
<elguavas@users.sourceforge.net>
"More power to those who don't care for it." - anon