[IronPython] Roadmap and updates

Wed Aug 6 22:53:02 CEST 2008

Thanks Dino.

I'll keep the flag in mind for the future. One question for my curioristy,
why not reporting the whole exception by default? If I were to run
production code and that an error occurred I would like to know the
context but might not afford to run the code again.

At least it would make sense while IP is in beta to have it enabled IMO.

Thanks also for getting this bug fixed, that'll put one step closer to get
Kamaelia working which would be fantastic as I've written a bunch of code
like XMPP client library using it. That'd be fun to have it working on IP.

Thanks again,
- Sylvain

> FYI one thing that might help on the debugging side is the
> -X:ExceptionDetail command line option to ipy.exe.  This is particular
> useful if you're getting something like a NullReferenceException or
> IndexError's because usually it leads right to the culprit.  In this case
> that displays this stack trace:
>
>    at IronPython.Runtime.Operations.PythonTypeOps.CallWorker(CodeContext
> context, PythonType dt, IAttributesCollection kwArgs, Object[] args) in
> C:\Product\3\Merlin\Main\Languages\IronPython\IronPytho
> n\Runtime\Operations\PythonTypeOps.cs:line 97
>    at IronPython.Runtime.Types.PythonType.Call(CodeContext context,
> IAttributesCollection kwArgs, Object[] args) in
> C:\Product\3\Merlin\Main\Languages\IronPython\IronPython\Runtime\Types\PythonType.cs
> :line 272
>    at _stub_$37##27(Closure , CallSite , CodeContext , Object , String ,
> Object , Object )
>    at _stub_MatchCaller(DynamicSiteTarget`6 , CallSite , Object[] )
>    at System.Scripting.Actions.CallSite`1.UpdateAndExecute(Object[] args)
> in
> c:\Product\3\ndp\fx\src\Core\Microsoft\Scripting\Actions\CallSite.cs:line
> 272
>    at
> System.Scripting.Actions.UpdateDelegates.Update5[T,T0,T1,T2,T3,T4,TRet](CallSite
> site, T0 arg0, T1 arg1, T2 arg2, T3 arg3, T4 arg4) in
> c:\Product\3\ndp\fx\src\Core\Microsoft\Scripting\Actions\Up
> dateDelegates.Generated.cs:line 55
>    at _stub_$36##26(Closure , CallSite , CodeContext , Object , String ,
> Object , Object )
>    at _stub_MatchCaller(DynamicSiteTarget`6 , CallSite , Object[] )
>    at System.Scripting.Actions.CallSite`1.UpdateAndExecute(Object[] args)
> in
> c:\Product\3\ndp\fx\src\Core\Microsoft\Scripting\Actions\CallSite.cs:line
> 272
>    at
> System.Scripting.Actions.UpdateDelegates.Update5[T,T0,T1,T2,T3,T4,TRet](CallSite
> site, T0 arg0, T1 arg1, T2 arg2, T3 arg3, T4 arg4) in
> c:\Product\3\ndp\fx\src\Core\Microsoft\Scripting\Actions\Up
> dateDelegates.Generated.cs:line 55
>    at <module>$20$9.<module>$20(Closure , Scope , LanguageContext ) in
> <stdin>:line 7
>    at Microsoft.Scripting.ScriptCode.InvokeTarget(LambdaExpression code,
> Scope scope) in
> C:\Product\3\Merlin\Main\Runtime\Microsoft.Scripting\Runtime\ScriptCode.cs:line
> 88
>    at
> Microsoft.Scripting.Runtime.OptimizedScriptCode.InvokeTarget(LambdaExpression
> code, Scope scope) in
> C:\Product\3\Merlin\Main\Runtime\Microsoft.Scripting\Runtime\OptimizedScriptCode.cs:line
> 71
>    at Microsoft.Scripting.ScriptCode.Run(Scope scope) in
> C:\Product\3\Merlin\Main\Runtime\Microsoft.Scripting\Runtime\ScriptCode.cs:line
> 80
>    at
> IronPython.Hosting.PythonCommandLine.<>c__DisplayClass1.<RunOneInteraction>b__0()
> in
> C:\Product\3\Merlin\Main\Languages\IronPython\IronPython\Hosting\PythonCommandLine.cs:line
> 370
> IndexError: Index was outside the bounds of the array.
>
> As you can see the top of the stack is the CallWorker and the problem here
> is that we're just not putting the arg name in the right index in the
> array.  So something like that might be obvious enough to fix w/o a repro
> - or it might be pretty easy for us to come up w/ a repro ourselves when
> we see the call stack.  If we had instead been throwing the exception from
> one of the _stub_ methods then we'd definitely need a repro as that's
> generated code and it's not immediately obvious what is going on.
>
> Anyway, this bug appears to be trivial fixed so it'll be in the next
> release.  Thanks for the bug report and easy repro!
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: users-bounces at lists.ironpython.com
> [mailto:users-bounces at lists.ironpython.com] On Behalf Of Sylvain
> Hellegouarch
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:05 AM
> To: maxyaffe at comcast.net; Discussion of IronPython
> Subject: Re: [IronPython] Roadmap and updates
>
> Hi,
>
>
>> Note:  I originally wrote this to Harry Pierson directly who asked that
>> I
>> post it publically. I hope it doesn't come off as too inflamatory.
>>
>> Harry - Thanks for the roadmap and the latest update.  It clarifies a
>> particular issue that I'm having with deciding whether to adopt Iron
>> Python
>> and .Net for that matter.  My particular application is a scientific
>> instrument control and data analysis package.  It runs on Windows now
>> using
>> various older MS technologies (dating back to Windows 2.3!).  It will
>> not
>> need to run from a web browser, mainly because of the requirements for
>> instrument control.  The application is highly scripted using a dynamic
>> language of my own devising derived from Smalltalk and remarkably
>> similar
>> to
>> Python.
>>
>> I had been looking at Qt 4.x+PyQt+Python 2.5 as an approach to updating
>> my
>> technology.  However, I wanted to see what Microsoft had to offer.
>> WinForms
>> + Python seems to be the best fit for my technology because of the need
>> to
>> manipulate data tables and my desire to avoid the web.  Silverlight just
>> doesn't offer me any advantage and seems to be directed at pretty
>> pictures
>> and sounds.  It also doesn't seem to handle the kinds of user/data
>> interaction I need.  XAML also doesn't seem to offer any advantage for
>> my
>> code, or if it does, it certainly isn't clear what it might be other
>> than
>> a
>> YAOUHD (yet another obese, unreadable HTML derivative).  Your roadmap,
>> however, seems to deprecate WinForms.  I'm worried that IronPython and
>> Microsoft are going to cut WinForms adrift just when I'm about to make a
>> major investment in it.  This might be the best approach for Microsoft
>> because it seems the "community" is mainly interested in pictures,
>> sounds,
>> and the web. But I need something more classical.
>>
>> I'd appreciate your comments and direction.
>>
>
> I will not comment on the state of Silverlight or XAML as I don't use them
> but I've been using the PyQt4+Python2.5 combination for some time and it's
> been working great. My main concern with IronPython at this stage is its
> inability to offer a clear view of its capacity to support pure Python
> libraries.
>
> I keep running in shortcomings or bugs [1] that make me nervous about
> investing time in IP when using existing pure Python libraries. I do
> understand IP is still in beta and bugs are expected at this stage but not
> having an up-to-date grid of what is officially implemented, supported,
> worked on is rather frustrating.
>
> In other words, if you start from scratch then IP+.NET is a solid choice
> but if you already have a large bunch of Python code I would personally be
> very careful as you might end up having to spend quite a lot of time in
> debugging the reason why your code isn't working as expected, opening
> tickets on CodePlex and never hearing about their progress again until
> they are potentially fixed.
>
> I do not want to sound like I downplay the IP team work, not at all, but
> the lack of visibility is not playing in their favor in my opinion.
> Writing code is one thing, giving recurrent feedback is sometimes worth
> more ;)
>
> I believe IP is worth the interest but keep in mind the product is still
> rather a long way.
>
> - Sylvain
>
> [1] http://www.codeplex.com/IronPython/WorkItem/View.aspx?WorkItemId=17561
>
> It might not sound like it but that bug was quite hard to track down
> because of the rather poor traceback information provided by IP as well as
> the fact that the IndexError, though a consequence of the bug, wasn't
> immediate to correlate back to the bug itself.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sylvain Hellegouarch
> http://www.defuze.org
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-- 
Sylvain Hellegouarch
http://www.defuze.org