[Mailman-Developers] PHP Wrappers?

Brad Knowles brad at stop.mail-abuse.org
Wed Nov 16 23:56:19 CET 2005

At 4:30 PM -0500 2005-11-16, Kevin McCann wrote:

>>>  Hello.  How might one configure Mailman (version 2.1.6) list settings
>>>  using PHP scripts?

	Mailman is a Python project.  PHP is always going to be an alien 
in this environment.

>>  The quick answer would be to not bother and wait until version 3 of
>>  Mailman which will use a MySQL backend and instead manipulate that
>>  directly (if I have been reading past discussions correctly).
>  I don't mean to be a pessimist, but I don't think this will ever happen.

	The better integration with MySQL?  No, that's definitely going 
to happen.  It may not happen as early as you (or Barry) would like, 
but it will happen.

>  -  The Mailman project is not as open as it could be. There is too much
>  control over who can contribute code, how they can do it, when they can
>  do it. I understand wanting to maintain quality and stability, but
>  effort and goodwill are going to waste.

	All open source projects have to have a source code control 
system, otherwise they can't survive.  You also have to have some 
controls over who is allowed to do what within the source code 
control system.  Again, it's a matter of simple survival.

	If you, or anyone else, is interested in contributing to the code 
base, it's not hard to add you to the system.  Once Barry saw that 
Tokio was posting patches and being a useful contributor to the 
project, he got added to the system, and is now the primary person 
responsible for the 2.x code base.  There are a number of other 
people who also have write access to the code base, but whose names 
you may not have seen very much of recently.

	There is a certain lack of involved developers who are able to 
contribute a good deal of time to the project.  If you're prepared to 
do that, then we will all benefit.

>  -  Not everyone sees the need for a highly integratable MLM, despite the
>  fact that people have been begging for it for half a decade. They beg
>  for it on the Mailman list. They beg for it on the Sympa list.

	They're begging for this kind of stuff in the wrong places. 
There a whole host of CRM and other related tools out there.

	But for whatever reason, people seem to be unwilling or unable to 
go look for them.  Instead, they glom onto tools like Mailman and 
instead expect us to make it do backflips, because they can't be 
bothered to go find the right tool for the job.

>                                                                  But MLM
>  developers apparently do not work with organizations or people who see
>  the need to integrate MLM's with other collaborative tools.

	Before you throw stones, you should make sure that you know what 
it is that you're going to be throwing stones at.

	In the case of Mailman, you clearly do not.

>                                                               MLM
>  developers do not buy into the concept of making the three main data
>  stores available in SQL (those being list config, member and message
>  archives)

	Oh?  That's news to me.

>  -  Backward compatability is an issue and puts the kebosh on dramatic
>  departures from exisitng MLM versions.

	For Mailman 2.x, that's true.  But Mailman 3.x is a complete 
ground-up re-design and re-write.  That's part of why it's taking so 
long to get there.

>  They just couldn't cut ties to "the old way."  With a Mailman 3, radical
>  changes would be needed, in my opinion, but are developers willing to
>  have MM3 be a new, different, separate beast than MM2?  I have a feeling
>  that there is not enough wilingness to let MM3 be a fresh, new start.

	Obviously you haven't been tracking the Mailman3 development very closely.

>  Personally, I think a new MLM is needed, built from the ground up, and
>  taking into account today's wants and needs. An MLM built for the 21st
>  century. Completely open source and well-managed by people who have the
>  time and the inclination to do it. New Project with New Ideas and Eager
>  People.

	If that's what you want, and Mailman3 isn't doing it for you, 
then you need to go off and set up your own project.

>           Either MM3 needs to start happening or a new MLM project needs
>  to be created. If some people don't have time, fine, but then loosen the
>  reins. Let it happen. And if it comes down to money, well, some people
>  may be surprised at the amount of funding that is available for these
>  kinds of projects. But the projects need to be able to move forward,
>  unencumbered by control and competing commitments. Otherwise nobody will
>  fund it.
>  Again, I'm not trying to throw out criticisms, just stating realities.

	That sounds to me like criticism.  Badly placed and very poorly 
informed criticism.

	Please do not continue to spread falsehoods and FUD about a 
project you obviously haven't been paying enough attention to.

Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

   SAGE member since 1995.  See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.

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