[Mailman-Developers] PHP Wrappers?

[Kevin McCann]

Brad Knowles wrote:

>     The better integration with MySQL?  No, that's definitely going to 
> happen.  It may not happen as early as you (or Barry) would like, but 
> it will happen.
>

I'll believe that when I see it.

>     They're begging for this kind of stuff in the wrong places. There 
> a whole host of CRM and other related tools out there.
>
>     But for whatever reason, people seem to be unwilling or unable to 
> go look for them.  Instead, they glom onto tools like Mailman and 
> instead expect us to make it do backflips, because they can't be 
> bothered to go find the right tool for the job.


This kind of response is precisely what makes me realize there is a huge 
disconnect between people who run mailing lists and ONLY want to run 
mailing lists and those who want to have a mailing list be a critical 
component of something more useful in the way of comunication and 
collaboration tools tha thelp build communities of practice. I'm not 
going to try to make you "get it" but I will say that the right tool for 
"the job" just doesn't exist yet. It would be nice if it did.

>>                                                                  But MLM
>>  developers apparently do not work with organizations or people who see
>>  the need to integrate MLM's with other collaborative tools.
>
>
>     Before you throw stones, you should make sure that you know what 
> it is that you're going to be throwing stones at.
>     In the case of Mailman, you clearly do not.


I'm not throwing stones, Brad. I've tried to make that clear. And I know 
precisely what Mailman is and isn't. When it comes to looking at what it 
isn't, I'm hoping for solutions. It won't happen in MM2, I know that. 
MM3? I've seen no developments on the MM3 list. I have heard Barry 
mention he's too busy to really do anything (I think he's hoping for 
spare time soon but "soon" is elusive for many). If there are 
significant developments, why are they not mentioned on the MM3 list?


>>                                                               MLM
>>  developers do not buy into the concept of making the three main data
>>  stores available in SQL (those being list config, member and message
>>  archives)
>
>
>     Oh?  That's news to me.


Took a while to convince some on list config and member data. Still work 
to do on message archives.


>>  -  Backward compatability is an issue and puts the kebosh on dramatic
>>  departures from exisitng MLM versions.
>
>
>     For Mailman 2.x, that's true.  But Mailman 3.x is a complete 
> ground-up re-design and re-write.  That's part of why it's taking so 
> long to get there.


No, Brad. That is not why. The reason is that people have other 
commitments and the project is not as open as it could be so that those 
who do have more time or MONEY could help move things along.

>>  They just couldn't cut ties to "the old way."  With a Mailman 3, 
>> radical
>>  changes would be needed, in my opinion, but are developers willing to
>>  have MM3 be a new, different, separate beast than MM2?  I have a 
>> feeling
>>  that there is not enough wilingness to let MM3 be a fresh, new start.
>
>
>     Obviously you haven't been tracking the Mailman3 development very 
> closely.


I went to the MM3 sprint. I'm on the MM3 list. I tried to get tens of 
thousands of dollars in funding for it, and came damn close, but things 
fell through because there was no movement on the project and the 
potential funders were nervous about it. Barry can confirm that I was 
trying to get things to happen from my end. Unless there is some sort of 
MM3 Secret Society that I was not invited to, I think I have followed 
things as closely as possible.

So educate, Brad. Don't be coy. Please, share your pearls of wisdom and 
knowledge. Where, specifically are things with MM3?

>>  Personally, I think a new MLM is needed, built from the ground up, and
>>  taking into account today's wants and needs. An MLM built for the 21st
>>  century. Completely open source and well-managed by people who have the
>>  time and the inclination to do it. New Project with New Ideas and Eager
>>  People.
>
>
>     If that's what you want, and Mailman3 isn't doing it for you, then 
> you need to go off and set up your own project.


Yes, that is precisely what may have to happen, hence my post.

>>           Either MM3 needs to start happening or a new MLM project needs
>>  to be created. If some people don't have time, fine, but then loosen 
>> the
>>  reins. Let it happen. And if it comes down to money, well, some people
>>  may be surprised at the amount of funding that is available for these
>>  kinds of projects. But the projects need to be able to move forward,
>>  unencumbered by control and competing commitments. Otherwise nobody 
>> will
>>  fund it.
>>
>>  Again, I'm not trying to throw out criticisms, just stating realities.
>
>
>     That sounds to me like criticism.  Badly placed and very poorly 
> informed criticism.


I'm not at all surprised it sounds like criticism to you. You just don't 
get it and I doubt you ever will..

>     Please do not continue to spread falsehoods and FUD about a 
> project you obviously haven't been paying enough attention to.


I have been watching this project closer than I'd like to admit for 5 
years. You're happy with the status quo, I'd prefer to try to get things 
happening. That's where we differ. No need to be snide and arrogant.

- Kevin  (trying very hard to be civil)