[Mailman-Developers] PHP Wrappers?

Brad Knowles brad at stop.mail-abuse.org
Thu Nov 17 10:53:25 CET 2005

At 4:10 AM -0500 2005-11-17, Kevin McCann wrote:

>  A design that supports independent functionality *and* integration is a
>  Good Thing. It's how a lot of software works.

	There are cases where this is possible, and cases where it is 
not.  The Unix philosophy of tying a multitude of tiny little tools 
together with pipes doesn't work for everything.

	Show me examples of stand-alone tools that are intended to be 
part of a complete community collaboration system, but which are also 
fully functional on their own.

	I'm sorry.  This is a case where you have to own all the pieces 
to the puzzle yourself before you can have a reasonable hope of being 
able to make them all fit together.

	Or did you think that you could just take arbitrary pieces from a 
dozen random puzzles and they'd all magically work together and 
create a beautiful picture?

>                                                                  But if it
>  can integrate easily with a collab tool that offers most of the other
>  desired functionality, then that's a good step in the right direction.
>  So what exactly is wrong with that premise?

	That you'd get that utopia for free?  That you could simply 
continue to badger and browbeat us until we provided it for you, for 

>                                              If that puts me in a
>  different universe, well, I have a lot of company out here.

	Yeah, on the badgering front, you certainly have a lot of company 
there.  Not that this is a good thing, however.

>>      Mailman will move towards greater integration with database tools,
>>  yes.  But it is not now, nor will it ever be, the be-all and end-all
>>  of community collaboration tools.
>  Your first sentence above: that is all I'm looking for!

	Not according to everything else you've said.  Among other 
things, greater integration with database tools says nothing for 
sharing the database schema designs with other projects.  Nor does it 
say anything for sharing the supported database packages with other 
projects -- maybe we'd like MySQL and they'd like PostgreSQL.  And 
that's just the tip of the ice shelf.

	Or did you expect that just because you get everyone in the UN to 
speak English (or at least understand it through an interpreter), 
that they would automatically agree on everything and work together 
towards the same set of goals?

	I think you're expecting a level of integration here that cannot 
possibly be provided by any one project, unless they own all the 
various pieces to their puzzle.

>                                                           I don't want or
>  expect MM to be a be-all and end-all tool! I want it to be able to be
>  PART of a very good solution. I hope to see that in MM3. Why can't you
>  understand that?

	Why can't you understand that you're speaking out of both sides 
of your mouth at the same time, and saying different things?

>  Once again, paying money for Barry (and others) to do work on MM3 is
>  precisely what I tried to arrange. Availability was always the main issue.

	Pay them enough money, and I'm sure that they'll solve the 
availability problem.  But you'll have to guarantee them the payment 
-- they're not going to quit their day jobs just because you claim to 
have ten million dollars in a vault.

>  What the? I really don't understand your hostility. And you haven't read
>  a word I've written have you? Understand this:  I have put A LOT of time
>  and effort into trying to move MM3 develoment forward through funding.
>  These are ACTIONS, whether you recognize it or not.

	I don't see any action there.  I see failure to act, sure.  Claim 
of action, sure.  Possibility of attempted action, maybe.  If so, 
then there was certainly a failure to complete the action -- 
regardless of who you try to blame that on.

>  Brad, try treating people a) like you would have them treat you,

	I might do that, if you would have done the same.  Instead, you 
post your diatribe and expect all problems to be solved for you.

	I'm sorry.  I'm not going to react well to that kind of 
treatment, and I doubt anyone else is, either.

>  and b) as if they were in the same room as you.

	Again, Physician -- heal thyself.  Once you've done that, maybe 
others will follow suit.

>  You know, I'm reminded by all of this that no good deed goes unpunished.

	Yup, you're certainly providing lots of punishment here.  We must 
have done lots of good deeds.

>  I did a lot of lobbying for MM3 development funding. It didn't work out
>  because of Barry's schedule, but Lord knows I put in the effort.

	I've put in lots of effort on lots of projects, some of which was 
successful and some of which wasn't.

	But I don't recall ever posting a diatribe of the sort you did, 
and then expect everyone else to kowtow to my wishes, cater to my 
every desire, and magically solve all my problems.

Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

   SAGE member since 1995.  See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.

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