[Mailman-Users] Mailman on Mac OS X Server 10.3: Outgoingmessagesstuck in qrunner/in folder

Todd Zullinger tmz at pobox.com
Fri Dec 15 04:20:53 CET 2006

Brad Knowles wrote:
> Even if they have made the source code available for everything 
> they've done with regards to Mailman (which includes all their 
> proprietary management tools), this is not the same thing as 
> contributing that code back to the Mailman project.

But what value would MacOSX specific integrations be to the Mailman
project?  I think that they'd likely be of limited value.  Just as
Debian or Red Hat specific changes are.  I know that John Dennis of
Red Hat contributed the changes Red Hat made to make mailman fit in
better with the FHS.  But even those changes are not accepted and they
are far more likely to be of general use than a Mac OSX service manage
script.  (I'm not arguing that they should have been, just using it as
an example.)

If a vendor make changes to the functionality that improve upon things
in Mailman, they yes, those changes would be great to see merged back
in and it's good to chide those that don't do so.  I am not aware that
those are the sort of changes anyone has said Apple's made.

ISTM that often when a vendor makes such changes, they make them
without the flexibility that would be needed to get them into the main
code base.  For example, cPanel has patched mailman to allow for lists
of the same name and a different domain name within a single mailman
install.  But they have done it in a rather hacky and inelegant way so
it's doubtful that even if they sent a patch to the developers list
that it'd get accepted.  It's only partially baked. :)

> Same any other group that takes our code and makes modifications to 
> it -- even if they make all their source code publicly available, 
> that's not the same thing as contributing it back to the Mailman 
> project.

To me it makes a difference what sort of modifications you're talking
about.  Most of the modifications in this thread and similar threads
deal with changes a vendor or distro make to integrate mailman into
their specific way of doing things.  And I think those changes aren't
likely to be useful to the project as a whole.  So that's the part
where I think it's unfair to criticize vendors and distros over.

Obviously, those changes do impact the ability of folks here to offer
help to those who ask for it.  It is a good thing to remind those
posters that they should check in with their vendor/distro to ensure
that the problems they're having aren't vendor/distro specific.  This
is somewhat akin to the need to ask a poster where they installed
mailman before anyone here can say "run this" or "edit that."

> Whereas I was an Apple fan from 1982, back in the original Apple ][ 
> days, and before the introduction of the 16K language card, the Apple 
> II+, the Apple IIe, the Apple //c, or any other more recent Apple 
> product.  I've been a MacFanatic since December of 1983 when I saw an 
> early prototype behind closed doors.  I've been a Mac owner since the 
> day when I bought a Mac SE -- before the internal hard drive model 
> was available.

I certainly won't argue that you've got me handily beat in terms of
experience and breadth of exposure to various systems.  :-)

My point mainly is that it sometimes comes across that vendors/distros
who install mailman and add to or change it to integrate it into their
system gets painted as doing something wrong.  I don't think that's
the intent, but I felt it worth mentioning and pointing to the Apple
code.  For anyone interested in checking specifically what Apple has
changed about the Mailman code, it's there.

Ideally a few Apple users would hang out on this list and could help
to guide those who are asking for assistance and using the Apple
installed Mailman.  In that way, we'd all learn a little more about
how to solve people's problems with Mailman.

Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom
they oppress.
    -- Frederick Douglass

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