[Mailman-Users] follow up: help request: new 1300 member list results inmostly bounces

Brad Knowles brad at stop.mail-abuse.org
Fri May 26 08:13:26 CEST 2006

At 11:23 PM -0400 2006-05-25, Nathan wrote:

>  They suggest sending out 10-15 emails at a time - is there a way to set
>  mailman up to do this? (and would there be a point?)

	I'm calling bull$#!+ on this one.  First off, plenty of sites run 
Mailman-hosted mailing lists with thousands, tens of thousands, or 
even hundreds of thousands of subscribers, and they don't have these 
kinds of problems.  Secondly, if rate-limiting does solve the 
problem, then you should seriously consider finding another provider.

>>  There is really no cap as to how many emails you can send out.
>>  However, the more you send out at one time the more likelly they are
>>  to bounce. It has nothing to do with Globaltap, it has alot to do with
>>  the servers that are recieving the email. There is a marker in the
>>  email that marks it as bulk.

	<BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP>  Wrong answer.  Thanks for playing.

	Mailman does intentionally add a header for "Precedence: Bulk" to 
all outgoing messages, as is appropriate for the function that it is 
performing.  However, I've been involved in running mail services at 
a good number of sites in the world, and I have never, ever heard of 
any site being stupid enough to filter based on this header.

	If this were a problem, then all the Mailman-hosted mailing lists 
with tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of users would never 
have been able to get off the ground.

>>                                Most servers including Globaltaps often
>>  rejects those emails to protect their/our customers from spam. Comcast
>>  and aol also do the same thing.

	No, AOL doesn't.  I was the Sr. Internet Mail Administrator for 
AOL, and I know perfectly well how they operate, since I helped 
define most of those procedures.

	Anyone else in the world who claims that they know how AOL 
operates without having personal experience at AOL, or without having 
direct recent contact with the guys at AOL, is simply blowing smoke 
up your skirt.

>>                                   For the most part most mail servers
>>  use the same filters and black lists.

	Rate-based activity has nothing to do with filters or black 
lists.  Again, clearly a sign of someone who knows the buzzwords but 
doesn't understand how the technology actually works.

	As for most of the rest of this crap, I'm not even going to 
bother.  Clearly, they need to steal several clues, since they don't 
have any themselves and it doesn't appear likely that anyone else is 
going to give, sell, or loan them any.

>>                                        2. There is an organization that
>>  can certify your email as not spam. The ceritification is inserted in
>>  to the header of your email and then the bulk delivery should get
>>  accepted by most other servers, but still not all. And the
>>  cerification isn't free.

	Talking about Goodmail?  Maybe you might want to do some Googling 
on the phrase "AOL e-mail tax" and see what the community *really* 
thinks of this idea.

>>  Most hosting services frown on people who send out large bulk emails.
>>  It tends to cause problems for other customers and it takes alot of
>>  time to clean up the mess plus explain to other customers why they are
>>  not able to send mail for upto a week.
>>  In those cases you could be held liable for the "clean up" and loss of
>>  revenue.

	Hint: If your hosting provider is sounding this threatening to 
you over a small mailing list, you should seriously consider getting 
a different hosting provider.

Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.

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