From webwitchcraft at webwitchcraft.com  Sat Nov  1 05:58:47 2008
From: webwitchcraft at webwitchcraft.com (TGPlatt, WebMaster)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:58:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman on multiple domains
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081031131253042181bef2da@Notebook>
Message-ID: <DB071FB080624BE4A1335274EA7F39C8@gregsrocket>

I'm running MM 2.1.11 on Debian Etch4.0r3 with Postfix 2.3.8. I hesitate to
explain how I made this work... In fact perhaps I shouldn't. It could jinx
me. But in our case, I've got the individual LOCAL virtual email addresses
for each domain defined in the /etc/postfix/virtual file and I've allowed
mailman to define the local virtual email addresses IT needs for the same
domain in the /usr/local/mailman/data/virtual-mailman file. These lists are
mapped to postfix ".db" files /etc/postfix/virtual.db and
/usr/local/mailman/data/virtual-mailman.db

These files are defined this way in /etc/postfix/main.cf:

virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/virtual
    hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/virtual-mailman

and in /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py they're defined this way:

#####
# Virtual domains
#####

# Set up your virtual host mappings here.  This is primarily used for the #
thru-the-web list creation, so its effects are currently fairly limited.
# Use add_virtualhost() call to add new mappings.  The keys are strings as #
determined by Utils.get_domain(), the values are as appropriate for #
DEFAULT_HOST_NAME.
# VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {'lists.example.com':'example.com',
#                  'lists.somethingelse.com':'somethingelse.com'}

VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {'firstdomain.net':'firstdomain.net',
                 'seconddomain.com':'seconddomain.com',
                 'thirddomain.com':'thirddomain.com'}

IMAGE_LOGOS = '/icons/'

MTA = 'Postfix'

#
# added this line to enable POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS # details see:
www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html
# also: www.howtoforge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5311
# POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['',]

POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['firstdomain.net', 'seconddomain.com',
'thirddomain.com']

# Are archives public or private by default?
# 0=public, 1=private
DEFAULT_ARCHIVE_PRIVATE = 1

# ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX
#-1 - do not do any archiving
# 0 - do not archive to mbox, use builtin mailman html archiving only # 1 -
do not use builtin mailman html archiving, archive to mbox only # 2 -
archive to both mbox and builtin mailman html archiving.
#     See the settings below for PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER and
#     PRIVATE_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER which can be used to replace mailman's
#     builtin html archiving with an external archiver.  The flat mail
#     mbox file can be useful for searching, and is another way to
#     interface external archivers, etc.
ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = 2

At this point I only have the mailman list for one of these domains working.
If I understand the requirements correctly, I will eventually need to add
"add_virtualhost" lines for 

add_virtualhost('www.seconddomain.com', 'seconddomain.com')
add_virtualhost('www.thirddomain.com','thirddomain.com')

Other than those changes which I expect to need to make, the way I have it
configured now seems to be working. 

There were also setup requirements in Apache's virtualhost definition files
too. But the way this is setup is unique on Debian. So I won't try to
explain it except to say Apache's VirtualHost definition files need these
lines included:

## Mailman Setup
        ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/
        <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/">
#                AddDefaultCharset Off
        </Directory>

I HOPE I've got this right. Most of all, I hope this helps you, Scott.

Good Luck!

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 2:13 PM
To: Scott Race
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman on multiple domains

Scott Race wrote:
>
>Thanks, fixed the domain name in the mm_cfg.py to read
['second-domain.com'].
>
>Running the /bin/genaliases doesn't return an error, but doesn't
>generate the /data/virtual-mailman file.  The mailman error logs don't
>show anything (no errors since Oct 22).
>
>Sounds like the virtual-mailman file missing is my main problem, huh?


Yes.

Go to the list's General Options page and look near the bottom at "Host
name this list prefers for email.". Does this match second-domain.com?

What you ultimately need to do to configure all this depends on whether
or not you will have multiple Mailman domains or a single Mailman
domain.

If there is only a single mailman domain = second-domain.com you want
something like

DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'www.second-domain.com'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'second-domain.com'
add_virtual_hosts(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

in mm_cfg.py

and then run

bin/withlist -l -a -r fix_url

to fix the web_page_url and host_name attributes of all the lists.

If you have more Mailman domains, it's more complex, but until you have
the proper host_name for your lists, genaliases won't create/update
virtual-mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov  1 06:26:36 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:26:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman on multiple domains
In-Reply-To: <DB071FB080624BE4A1335274EA7F39C8@gregsrocket>
Message-ID: <PC18702008103122263603599609e54b@Notebook>

TGPlatt, WebMaster wrote:
>
>VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {'firstdomain.net':'firstdomain.net',
>                 'seconddomain.com':'seconddomain.com',
>                 'thirddomain.com':'thirddomain.com'}


Just FYI the abbove is EXACTLY eqiivalent to

VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {}
add_virtualhost('firstdomain.net', 'firstdomain.net')
add_virtualhost('seconddomain.com', 'seconddomain.com')
add_virtualhost('thirddomain.com', 'thirddomain.com')

I.e. all add_virtualhost() does is add an entry to the VIRTUAL_HOSTS
dictionary with key = the first arg and value = the second arg.


>At this point I only have the mailman list for one of these domains working.
>If I understand the requirements correctly, I will eventually need to add
>"add_virtualhost" lines for 
>
>add_virtualhost('www.seconddomain.com', 'seconddomain.com')
>add_virtualhost('www.thirddomain.com','thirddomain.com')


Actually, these conflict mildly with what you have. The issue is how
you want to access the web interface for these domains.
http://seconddomain.com/mailman/... or
http://www.seconddomain.com/mailman/... . If the former, you want what
you have now or what I indicated was equivalent. If the latter, you
want what you have immediately above, but you probably don't want both.


>Other than those changes which I expect to need to make, the way I have it
>configured now seems to be working. 
>
>There were also setup requirements in Apache's virtualhost definition files
>too. But the way this is setup is unique on Debian. So I won't try to
>explain it except to say Apache's VirtualHost definition files need these
>lines included:
>
>## Mailman Setup
>        ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/


Yes, you need the above, but not necessarily in each <VirtualHost>
section. You can have it just once outside of the <VirtualHost>
sections.


>        <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/">
>#                AddDefaultCharset Off
>        </Directory>


The above 3 lines appear to do nothing.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From webwitchcraft at webwitchcraft.com  Sat Nov  1 14:35:31 2008
From: webwitchcraft at webwitchcraft.com (TGPlatt, WebMaster)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 07:35:31 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman on multiple domains
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008103122263603599609e54b@Notebook>
Message-ID: <3AD116502EEB4FA4BE7C6F1B2375F14C@gregsrocket>

Thanks for the clarifications, Mark. I had actually forgotten that the way I
formatted the Virtual_Hosts line was equivalent to providing individual
add_virtualhost lines. So, you undoubtedly saved me some grief there. 

Those few lines you see in my apache-postfix-mailman setup files only took
me a week to figure out through web research and trial and error without
pestering you for help. You were so helpful and generous with your support
in June and July, I didn't want to show up at your door with hat in hand
expecting you to lead me by the nose through this setup as well.

As far as the apache config goes, I deliberately opted to put the mailman
commands in individual virtual host files because I don't necessarily plan
to make mailman available to every domain on my server until I've learned
more about how its setup needs to work. For that reason (and since the
Debian definition readily supports it, I chose to install the mailman
definitions domain-by-domain rather than place them at a higher level in the
Apache Definitions and grant them automatically to ALL domains.

And yes, for the record, you're right. I realize these lines:

>        <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/">
>#                AddDefaultCharset Off
>        </Directory>

do nothing at the moment. I included them as a reminder to myself that
additional definitions that involve a single mailman domain CAN be included
in Apache's VirtualHost definition files. I believe the post where I found
those example lines recommended adding them as part of a solution designed
to support multiple character sets and languages. As I recall, there may
also need to be an appropriate character set defined for EACH language as
well. In short I retained those lines as a form of reminder -- a "footprint
in the sand" if you will.

As always, thanks for your thoughtful, wise and astute guidance, Mark.
Please keep eating your wheaties, friend. I'm afraid mailman would soon be
unusable without your amazing knowledge and insight at the support helm! :-)

Best Professional Regards,
Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 11:27 PM
To: webwitchcraft at webwitchcraft.com; 'Scott Race'
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman on multiple domains

TGPlatt, WebMaster wrote:
>
>VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {'firstdomain.net':'firstdomain.net',
>                 'seconddomain.com':'seconddomain.com',
>                 'thirddomain.com':'thirddomain.com'}


Just FYI the abbove is EXACTLY eqiivalent to

VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {}
add_virtualhost('firstdomain.net', 'firstdomain.net')
add_virtualhost('seconddomain.com', 'seconddomain.com')
add_virtualhost('thirddomain.com', 'thirddomain.com')

I.e. all add_virtualhost() does is add an entry to the VIRTUAL_HOSTS
dictionary with key = the first arg and value = the second arg.


>At this point I only have the mailman list for one of these domains
working.
>If I understand the requirements correctly, I will eventually need to add
>"add_virtualhost" lines for 
>
>add_virtualhost('www.seconddomain.com', 'seconddomain.com')
>add_virtualhost('www.thirddomain.com','thirddomain.com')


Actually, these conflict mildly with what you have. The issue is how
you want to access the web interface for these domains.
http://seconddomain.com/mailman/... or
http://www.seconddomain.com/mailman/... . If the former, you want what
you have now or what I indicated was equivalent. If the latter, you
want what you have immediately above, but you probably don't want both.


>Other than those changes which I expect to need to make, the way I have it
>configured now seems to be working. 
>
>There were also setup requirements in Apache's virtualhost definition files
>too. But the way this is setup is unique on Debian. So I won't try to
>explain it except to say Apache's VirtualHost definition files need these
>lines included:
>
>## Mailman Setup
>        ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/


Yes, you need the above, but not necessarily in each <VirtualHost>
section. You can have it just once outside of the <VirtualHost>
sections.


>        <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/">
>#                AddDefaultCharset Off
>        </Directory>


The above 3 lines appear to do nothing.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov  1 21:56:01 2008
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:56:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
Message-ID: <490CC261.9090907@bellsouth.net>

I am having a problem getting the reply-to header configured for
confirmations. Due to some email restrictions from my ISP I cannot use
the default (i.e. list-request at hostname.mydomain.com). Thus when a user
tries to reply to a confirmation, it bounces (it needs to be
listreq at mydomain.com).I can't find this in the documentation (probably
because my reply-to search key word keeps yielding user reply
information not mailman generated reply-to forms). How to I configure
the reply-to header for confirmations. Do I need to customize the form
itself? Thanks.

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From mhutin at gmail.com  Sat Nov  1 15:10:40 2008
From: mhutin at gmail.com (Matthieu HUTIN)
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:10:40 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest always in MIME
Message-ID: <C53221F0.23DFE%mhutin@gmail.com>

Hi all

I can't get my digests to be sended in other than MIME although Plain Text
is selected. Any way to get this solved ? I have access to the server if any
CLI need to be used. I'm running 2.1.11

Thanks and Regards
-- 
Matthieu HUTIN
Ceux qui ne luttent pas contre le mal, finissent par le servir....



From brad at shub-internet.org  Sun Nov  2 08:10:19 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 01:10:19 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest always in MIME
In-Reply-To: <C53221F0.23DFE%mhutin@gmail.com>
References: <C53221F0.23DFE%mhutin@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490D525B.8040408@shub-internet.org>

Matthieu HUTIN wrote:

> I can't get my digests to be sended in other than MIME although Plain Text
> is selected. Any way to get this solved ? I have access to the server if any
> CLI need to be used. I'm running 2.1.11

Check the messages in the digest, as well as the digest header and 
footer.  I'm willing to bet that there is a character set or 
content-transfer-encoding difference somewhere in there, which is 
forcing the MIME formatting.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Sun Nov  2 08:56:30 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 01:56:30 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest always in MIME
In-Reply-To: <C53316BD.23E6C%mhutin@gmail.com>
References: <C53316BD.23E6C%mhutin@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490D5D2E.10501@shub-internet.org>

Matthieu HUTIN wrote:

> I've done a test by sending an email myself. I always send email as plain
> test (I hate HTMl in mails ;-) ) So it should have been "digested" as plain
> texte according to my setup. However I may be wrong as this is the first
> time i'm facing this issues. It's been working perfectly for the past 5
> years with older mailman versions (2.1.5 was the last version I used without
> problems).

You sent a text/plain, but you used iso-8859-1 as your character set, 
and you included binary characters.  That got encoded as 
quoted-printable when it was sent, and that was preserved when the 
message was transmitted back out.

Now, I'm not an expert in the workings of the underlying MIME or e-mail 
library code in Python that is used by Mailman, but I suspect that any 
non-USASCII characters in any of the input messages will force all the 
digests to be processed as MIME and not plain text.  Unfortunately, for 
a language like French, that poses a problem since there are so many 
accents you have to account for.


Now, Python is written by a very international community speaking many, 
many different languages, and to a somewhat lesser degree the same is 
true of Mailman.  So, we are very sensitive to language and character 
set problems and we do everything we can to try to avoid causing 
problems for anyone else.  But that means we *don't* take a "just send 
eight" approach to transmitting messages, and instead we actually try to 
"Do The Right Thing".  Unfortunately, sometimes not everyone agrees on 
what that "Right Thing" is.


Unfortunately, we really don't have all the information here that we 
need.  We do see that the outgoing message gets wrapped up in a 
multipart/mixed, but we don't see what might have caused that to happen.

I will also add that qmail is not one of my favourite MTAs, because I've 
seen more than a few problems caused by it (and I'm not very popular 
amongst the qmail communities).  But I'm also aware that plenty of sites 
out there are using qmail on a daily basis without any problems, so I 
won't even talk about pointing the finger that direction until we've 
eliminated all other likely possibilities.


If you want to send me a complete, unredacted copy of the message in 
question (with all headers intact), I'll be glad to take a look at it 
for you and see if I can spot anything obvious.  Alternatively, if you 
like I can subscribe to your "liste" and we can try out some things that 
way.  All I ask is that you keep in mind that I don't speak or read 
French, despite of the fact that I lived in Belgium for nearly eight 
years and my wife and I moved back to the US just a couple years ago.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov  2 14:43:51 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 05:43:51 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <490CC261.9090907@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <PC18702008110205435102505654b32d@Notebook>

Dennis Putnam wrote;
>
>I am having a problem getting the reply-to header configured for
>confirmations. Due to some email restrictions from my ISP I cannot use
>the default (i.e. list-request at hostname.mydomain.com). Thus when a user
>tries to reply to a confirmation, it bounces (it needs to be
>listreq at mydomain.com).I can't find this in the documentation (probably
>because my reply-to search key word keeps yielding user reply
>information not mailman generated reply-to forms). How to I configure
>the reply-to header for confirmations. Do I need to customize the form
>itself? Thanks.


Can you use list-confirm at ... or does that have to be munged too? If you
can use it, set

VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes

in mm_cfg.py and restart Mailman.

If the list-confirm address is munged too, you will have to modify the
definitions of the getListAddress() and GetConfirmEmail() methods in
Mailman/MailList.py to return the addresses you use.

Also, if you are concerned about the site (mailman) list, you need to
modify the get_site_email() function in Mailman/Utils.py.

If you need help with these mods, post again and indicate which of the
nine list-... addresses need to be munged and to what.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov  2 14:57:10 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 05:57:10 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest always in MIME
In-Reply-To: <490D525B.8040408@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <PC18702008110205571002031b55e915@Notebook>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>Matthieu HUTIN wrote:
>
>> I can't get my digests to be sended in other than MIME although Plain Text
>> is selected. Any way to get this solved ? I have access to the server if any
>> CLI need to be used. I'm running 2.1.11
>
>Check the messages in the digest, as well as the digest header and 
>footer.  I'm willing to bet that there is a character set or 
>content-transfer-encoding difference somewhere in there, which is 
>forcing the MIME formatting.


I don't think that would do it. Those things should be recoded or
scrubbed.

When you say "Plain Text is selected", do you mean "When receiving
digests, which format is default" on the admin Digest options page? If
so, that only controls the default setting for new list members. Each
existing member has an individual setting for "Get MIME or Plain Text
Digests" on the user options page which reflected by the presence or
absence of a check in the box in the "plain" column on the admin
Membership List pages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov  2 15:39:27 2008
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:39:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008110205435102505654b32d@Notebook>
References: <PC18702008110205435102505654b32d@Notebook>
Message-ID: <490DBB9F.7050702@bellsouth.net>

Thanks for the reply.

OK, to be clear the problem is one of mailbox name length. Another list
member replied privately and questioned that so I will repost that
information here.

The number characters in my list name plus the '-request' is 6 characters too many. I could change the list names but that would be too much effort for list members most of which are computer illiterate. These lists have been around for several years. The need for confirmations simply has not come up until now. It probably never worked from the beginning. It has been so long since I set these up I'm not sure I remember how (IIRC, that can be set on a list-by-list basis from the web interface) but obviously this is different. Perhaps I should have pointed that out in the original question but I didn't think it was really relevant.

That being said, using list-confirm is still that same length. As for
what needs to be munged, I think only the confirmation message. My list
members don't use anything else and probably wouldn't know how anyway.
In all the years these lists have been active, this is the first time
someone had to change their email address so it is the first time a
confirmation was needed. I was not aware this was going to be a major
effort. Be aware that, although I am experienced with many various
languages (scripting and otherwise), python is not among them.

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Dennis Putnam wrote;
>   
>> I am having a problem getting the reply-to header configured for
>> confirmations. Due to some email restrictions from my ISP I cannot use
>> the default (i.e. list-request at hostname.mydomain.com). Thus when a user
>> tries to reply to a confirmation, it bounces (it needs to be
>> listreq at mydomain.com).I can't find this in the documentation (probably
>> because my reply-to search key word keeps yielding user reply
>> information not mailman generated reply-to forms). How to I configure
>> the reply-to header for confirmations. Do I need to customize the form
>> itself? Thanks.
>>     
>
>
> Can you use list-confirm at ... or does that have to be munged too? If you
> can use it, set
>
> VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
>
> in mm_cfg.py and restart Mailman.
>
> If the list-confirm address is munged too, you will have to modify the
> definitions of the getListAddress() and GetConfirmEmail() methods in
> Mailman/MailList.py to return the addresses you use.
>
> Also, if you are concerned about the site (mailman) list, you need to
> modify the get_site_email() function in Mailman/Utils.py.
>
> If you need help with these mods, post again and indicate which of the
> nine list-... addresses need to be munged and to what.
>
>   


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From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov  2 18:11:05 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:11:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <490DBB9F.7050702@bellsouth.net>
References: <PC18702008110205435102505654b32d@Notebook>
	<490DBB9F.7050702@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <490DDF29.3010907@msapiro.net>

Dennis Putnam wrote:
> 
> OK, to be clear the problem is one of mailbox name length. Another
> list member replied privately and questioned that so I will repost
> that information here.
> 
> The number characters in my list name plus the '-request' is 6
> characters too many. I could change the list names but that would be
> too much effort for list members most of which are computer
> illiterate. These lists have been around for several years. The need
> for confirmations simply has not come up until now. It probably never
> worked from the beginning. It has been so long since I set these up
> I'm not sure I remember how (IIRC, that can be set on a list-by-list
> basis from the web interface) but obviously this is different.
> Perhaps I should have pointed that out in the original question but I
> didn't think it was really relevant.
> 
> That being said, using list-confirm is still that same length. As for
>  what needs to be munged, I think only the confirmation message.

Still, if you can use VERP_CONFIRMATIONS, it would make the code
modifications simpler because of the way the address is generated. The
difference is without VERP_CONFIRMATIONS, the message is

From: list-request at ...

with

Subject: confirm xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx...

and with VERP_CONFIRMATIONS it is

>From list-confirm+xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx... at ...

with

Subject: Your confirmation is required to ...

Of course, if the local part suffix is included in the length
restriction, this only makes it worse and can't be used.

> My
> list members don't use anything else and probably wouldn't know how
> anyway. In all the years these lists have been active, this is the
> first time someone had to change their email address so it is the
> first time a confirmation was needed. I was not aware this was going
> to be a major effort. Be aware that, although I am experienced with
> many various languages (scripting and otherwise), python is not among
> them.

Does the munging need to be done for all lists in the installation? Is
it done in the same way for each list? I.e. is list-request always
mapped to listreq or does the mapping vary depending on list. Can the
mapping be deduced programmatically, or would it have to be looked up in
a table?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov  2 23:08:08 2008
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:08:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <490DDF29.3010907@msapiro.net>
References: <PC18702008110205435102505654b32d@Notebook>
	<490DBB9F.7050702@bellsouth.net> <490DDF29.3010907@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <490E24C8.30006@bellsouth.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Still, if you can use VERP_CONFIRMATIONS, it would make the code
> modifications simpler because of the way the address is generated. The
> difference is without VERP_CONFIRMATIONS, the message is
>
> From: list-request at ...
>
> with
>
> Subject: confirm xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx...
>
> and with VERP_CONFIRMATIONS it is
>
> >From list-confirm+xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx... at ...
>
> with
>
> Subject: Your confirmation is required to ...
>
> Of course, if the local part suffix is included in the length
> restriction, this only makes it worse and can't be used.
>   
Since I don't know what the implications of VERP_CONFIRMATIONS are, I
have reason to not try it. :)
The length restriction is on the mailbox name or rather the user name
(everything that precedes the '@').
>
> Does the munging need to be done for all lists in the installation? Is
> it done in the same way for each list? I.e. is list-request always
> mapped to listreq or does the mapping vary depending on list. Can the
> mapping be deduced programmatically, or would it have to be looked up in
> a table?
>   
Actually no. There is only 1 list that otherwise exceeds this limit. The
mapping can be deduced programmatically. It is simply the list name
prepended to 'req' rather than prepended to '-request'.

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From faisalanif at hotmail.com  Sun Nov  2 23:45:49 2008
From: faisalanif at hotmail.com (faisal anif)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:45:49 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] message delivery eating disk space ..
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081031112829029681bef245@Notebook>
References: <BLU144-W100774211E752EDE45DDF6DF260@phx.gbl>
	<PC187020081031112829029681bef245@Notebook>
Message-ID: <BLU144-W2A9DCF388A8C36AB9AD26DF220@phx.gbl>


Well, I noticed that there are files in the : /var/lib/mailman/data/bounce-events-*****.pck
 
where ***** are numbers ..
 
considering their sizes (3-50MBs) they aren't that bad but with time, they pile up and fill the disk space.. is it safe to delete these files?
 
Thanks..
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:28:29 -0700> From: mark at msapiro.net> To: faisalanif at hotmail.com; mailman-users at python.org> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] message delivery eating disk space ..> > faisal anif wrote:> > > >is there a kind of temporary files that mailman doesn't cleanup? what can I do?> > > No. The only files are the queue files which hold the message as it is> processed and the archives. The queue files are removed when message> processing is complete.> > As Brad says, you need to actually check to see which directory> hierarchy was using up the disk space?> > -- > Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,> San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan> 
_________________________________________________________________
Discover the new Windows Vista
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov  3 00:24:45 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:24:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <490E24C8.30006@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <PC187020081102152444083728c6f131@Notebook>

Dennis Putnam wrote:
>
>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> Still, if you can use VERP_CONFIRMATIONS, it would make the code
>> modifications simpler because of the way the address is generated. The
>> difference is without VERP_CONFIRMATIONS, the message is
>>
>> From: list-request at ...
>>
>> with
>>
>> Subject: confirm xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx...
>>
>> and with VERP_CONFIRMATIONS it is
>>
>> >From list-confirm+xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx... at ...
>>
>> with
>>
>> Subject: Your confirmation is required to ...
>>
>> Of course, if the local part suffix is included in the length
>> restriction, this only makes it worse and can't be used.
>>  
>Since I don't know what the implications of VERP_CONFIRMATIONS are, I
>have reason to not try it. :)


The implication is exactly what I said above. The aditional implication
is that a reply which is addressed to
list-confirm+xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx... at ... has to be delivered the same as
if it were addressed to list-confirm at ...


>The length restriction is on the mailbox name or rather the user name
>(everything that precedes the '@').


Since Mailman doesn't use mailbox delivery, why do you have an issue
with these names at all?


>> Does the munging need to be done for all lists in the installation? Is
>> it done in the same way for each list? I.e. is list-request always
>> mapped to listreq or does the mapping vary depending on list. Can the
>> mapping be deduced programmatically, or would it have to be looked up in
>> a table?
>> 
>Actually no. There is only 1 list that otherwise exceeds this limit. The
>mapping can be deduced programmatically. It is simply the list name
>prepended to 'req' rather than prepended to '-request'.


I'm not convinced you even need to do this. How does your MTA actually
deliver to Mailman?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Mon Nov  3 00:39:00 2008
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 18:39:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081102152444083728c6f131@Notebook>
References: <PC187020081102152444083728c6f131@Notebook>
Message-ID: <490E3A14.8030308@bellsouth.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Dennis Putnam wrote:
>   
>
> The implication is exactly what I said above. The aditional implication
> is that a reply which is addressed to
> list-confirm+xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx... at ... has to be delivered the same as
> if it were addressed to list-confirm at ...
>   
Then that won't work either.
>
> Since Mailman doesn't use mailbox delivery, why do you have an issue
> with these names at all?
>   
I don't have a static IP. I have to create mailboxes on my ISP's server.
Then use fetchmail to retrieve the messages. This means the mailbox has
to be pre-defined to my ISP then I have fetchmail map that to the actual
list mailbox in mailman.
>
> I'm not convinced you even need to do this. How does your MTA actually
> deliver to Mailman?
>
>   
The MTA that delivers to mailman is postfix but as I said above, the
issue is that I have to use fetchmail. As far as mailman is concerned it
is indeed going to list-request so the actual address used by list
members is transparent to mailman. That is why I need to munge the
Reply-To header for confirmations.

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From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov  3 06:21:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:21:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] message delivery eating disk space ..
In-Reply-To: <BLU144-W2A9DCF388A8C36AB9AD26DF220@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <PC18702008110221211208068b79ee72@Notebook>

faisal anif wrote:

>
>Well, I noticed that there are files in the : /var/lib/mailman/data/bounce-events-*****.pck
> 
>where ***** are numbers ..
> 
>considering their sizes (3-50MBs) they aren't that bad but with time, they pile up and fill the disk space.. is it safe to delete these files?


They should not be accumulating. There should never be more than 2, or
if you run multiple sliced qrunners, never more than the number of
OutgoingRunner slices + BounceRunner slices.

See
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-October/063746.html>
for a recent post with more detail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov  3 07:06:56 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 22:06:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <490E3A14.8030308@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811022206560119d0175c6f@Notebook>

Dennis Putnam wrote:

>The MTA that delivers to mailman is postfix but as I said above, the
>issue is that I have to use fetchmail. As far as mailman is concerned it
>is indeed going to list-request so the actual address used by list
>members is transparent to mailman. That is why I need to munge the
>Reply-To header for confirmations.

And:

>Actually no. There is only 1 list that otherwise exceeds this limit. The
>mapping can be deduced programmatically. It is simply the list name
>prepended to 'req' rather than prepended to '-request'.


The attached MailList.patch.txt patch (with an appropriate value for
MAGIC_LENGTH) or something like it should do what you want for the
-request address.

The attached MailList.patch2.txt patch is a slight modification that
handles substituting listabc for list-abcdef for any abcdef.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mhutin at gmail.com  Sun Nov  2 08:35:09 2008
From: mhutin at gmail.com (Matthieu HUTIN)
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:35:09 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest always in MIME
In-Reply-To: <490D525B.8040408@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <C53316BD.23E6C%mhutin@gmail.com>

02/11/08 08:10 : ??Brad Knowles?? a ?crit?:

>> I can't get my digests to be sended in other than MIME although Plain Text
>> is selected. Any way to get this solved ? I have access to the server if any
>> CLI need to be used. I'm running 2.1.11
> 
> Check the messages in the digest, as well as the digest header and
> footer.  I'm willing to bet that there is a character set or
> content-transfer-encoding difference somewhere in there, which is
> forcing the MIME formatting.

Hi Brad, thanks for answering

I've done a test by sending an email myself. I always send email as plain
test (I hate HTMl in mails ;-) ) So it should have been "digested" as plain
texte according to my setup. However I may be wrong as this is the first
time i'm facing this issues. It's been working perfectly for the past 5
years with older mailman versions (2.1.5 was the last version I used without
problems).

That is wy I'm looking at a server-side problem.

Any better guess ?

Thanks and Regards

#############
My email
#############

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Matthieu HUTIN <xxxx at gmail.com>
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: La liste technique du Macintosh <xxxx at macfr.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:26:31 +0100
Reply-To: La liste technique du Macintosh <xxxx at macfr.com>
Message-ID: <C5321797.23DF2%xxxx at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="ISO-8859-1"
Subject: [Macfr] Test pour Digest
Message: 1

@&=E9"'(=A7=E8!=E7=E0)

Test pour Digest

Matthieu HUTIN - Webmaster Macfr.com
--=20

#############
My Digest
#############

Received: (qmail 21967 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2008 14:28:16 +0100
Received: from localhost (HELO sd-16632.dedibox.fr) (127.0.0.1)
  by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2008 14:28:16 +0100
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1844956343=="
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: xxx at macfr.com
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Lot_Liste=2C_Vol_11=2C_Parution_1?=
To: xxx at macfr.com
Reply-To: xxx at macfr.com
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:28:15 +0100
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1225546095.21960.xxx at macfr.com>
X-BeenThere: xxx at macfr.com
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11
Precedence: list
List-Id: La liste technique du Macintosh
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.macfr.com/cgi-bin/mailman/options/liste>,
    <mailto:xxx-request at macfr.com?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://xxx.macfr.com/pipermail/liste>
List-Post: <mailto:xxx at macfr.com>
List-Help: <mailto:xxx-request at macfr.com?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.macfr.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/liste>,
    <mailto:xxx-request at macfr.com?subject=subscribe>
Sender: xxx-bounces at macfr.com
Errors-To: xxx-bounces at macfr.com

--===============1844956343==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: Lot Liste, Vol 11, Parution 1



-- 
Matthieu HUTIN
Ceux qui ne luttent pas contre le mal, finissent par le servir....



From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov  4 01:14:14 2008
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:14:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811022206560119d0175c6f@Notebook>
References: <PC1870200811022206560119d0175c6f@Notebook>
Message-ID: <490F93D6.8000701@bellsouth.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> The attached MailList.patch.txt patch (with an appropriate value for
> MAGIC_LENGTH) or something like it should do what you want for the
> -request address.
>
> The attached MailList.patch2.txt patch is a slight modification that
> handles substituting listabc for list-abcdef for any abcdef.
>
>   
Thanks but I'm afraid I have to let my ignorance show. Do I use both and
how do I incorporate/install these?


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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  4 05:34:02 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 20:34:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <490F93D6.8000701@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811032034020896b6cca682@msapiro>

Dennis Putnam wrote:
>
>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> The attached MailList.patch.txt patch (with an appropriate value for
>> MAGIC_LENGTH) or something like it should do what you want for the
>> -request address.
>>
>> The attached MailList.patch2.txt patch is a slight modification that
>> handles substituting listabc for list-abcdef for any abcdef.
>>
>>
>Thanks but I'm afraid I have to let my ignorance show. Do I use both and
>how do I incorporate/install these?


You use one or the other, not both. You use MailList.patch.txt if you
only want to substitute listreq for list-request. You use
MailList.patch2.txt if you want to substitute lisdadm for list-admin,
listbou for list-bounces, etc. for all nine of the suffixes.

Step one - edit the patch file to replace the 10 in

+MAGIC_LENGTH = 10

with the actual list name length that makes things too long.

Step two - make a backup of Mailman/MailList.py

Step three -

patch --dry-run /path/to/Mailman/MailList.py < /path/to/the/patch/file

(see 'man patch' for more info)

Depending on your Mailman version, you may see one or two "Hunk #n
succeeded at offset..." messages from step 3. These are OK, but any
other messages from step 3 after the "patching file ..." message may
indicate a problem, so stop and post the error(s)

Step four - If no errors at step 3

patch /path/to/Mailman/MailList.py < /path/to/the/patch/file

Step 5 - restart Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From moseley at hank.org  Tue Nov  4 14:49:37 2008
From: moseley at hank.org (Bill Moseley)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:49:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to "mailmain" list oddity
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200810271425410171a2f64d94@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200810271410400828c6114964@msapiro>
	<PC1870200810271425410171a2f64d94@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20081104134937.GB24264@hank.org>

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 02:25:41PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> 
> Actually, that specific alias wouldn't account for the (Postfix ?)
> 
> Delivered-To: users-owner@

Perhaps, I'm an Exim user not Postfix, so not familiar with it.  The
alias file was delivering the mail to users-owner@ so it would make
sense, though.



Removing the alias did resolve my issue.  But once I removed the alias
I had a ton of mail in "defer" status in the mailmain list.  So, I
ended up with more junk!  I set the "mailman" list to discard all
non-member postings (which is everything).

I hope that doesn't break anything?  I can never remember what exactly
IS the purpose of that "mailman" list, anyway.  What's it used for?

-- 
Bill Moseley
moseley at hank.org
Sent from my iMutt


From chromatest at azburners.org  Mon Nov  3 23:20:16 2008
From: chromatest at azburners.org (chromatest)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:20:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Using mailman on godaddy hosting?
Message-ID: <20255632.post@talk.nabble.com>


Hi all, I'm really new to both godaddy hosting, and mailman installation. 
I've used mailman often as a subscriber, and as a mailing list
administrator.  Recent installs have been on a dedicated linux box, but this
is not an option in this case.  My domain is hosted by godaddy.com and I'd
like to have listserv at mydomain.com.  It's not a very big list, so I'm not
worried about email limits and that stuff.

The major problem that I see is that with my hosting account, I don't get
any sort of telnet or ssh access.

I have "linux economy hosting".

So, the first question is:  Can I install mailman without ssh or telnet
access?

If so, what would be the first couple of steps after uploading the
"mailman-2.1.11.tgz" file via FTP to my domain?

Help please?
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Using-mailman-on-godaddy-hosting--tp20255632p20255632.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From neuss at math.uni-karlsruhe.de  Mon Nov  3 21:40:53 2008
From: neuss at math.uni-karlsruhe.de (Nicolas Neuss)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 21:40:53 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with Mailman/Exim4 mailinglists for
	certain senders
Message-ID: <87bpwwiluy.fsf@ma-patru.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de>

[I tried first to get help for this problem using the list for the Debian
package of Mailman - unfortunately, no one answered.  So I try it again
here.  If this does not succeed, I will try another MTA instead of Exim4.]

Dear Mailman experts,

I'm using the Mailman package with Exim 4 on a Debian Etch/testing system
'ruprecht.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de' (which is an alias for
'ma-slave.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de', BTW).  I followed the installation
instructions in README.Debian.Exim4, however, I do still have problems,
because the mailing lists do not work for some senders.

An example is the list 'kurs-6484 at ruprecht.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de'.
It seems that emails from Solaris/Sendmail systems do not get through,
because the university mail server asks for the user 'kurs-6484' on my
server, and is told that this user does not exist.  However, sending from
other machines to this list (e.g. machines running Postfix or Exim4) seems
to work without problems and the Exim 4 logs show that the mailman_router
and mailman_transport is correctly used in that case.

The error message I receive when I send from the Solaris system is as
follows:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The original message was received at Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:02:44 +0200 (MEST)
from neuss at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
kurs-6484 at ruprecht.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de
    (reason: 550-Callout verification failed:)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mailin.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de.:
>>> RCPT To:<kurs-6484 at ma-slave.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de>
<<< 550-Callout verification failed:
<<< 550 550 Unrouteable address
550 5.1.1 kurs-6484 at ruprecht.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de... User unknown

Reporting-MTA: dns; ma-srv.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Arrival-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:02:44 +0200 (MEST)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; kurs-6484 at ma-slave.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Remote-MTA: DNS; mailin.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550-Callout verification failed:
Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:02:57 +0200 (MEST)

From: "Dr. Nicolas Neuss" <neuss>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:02:44 +0200 (MEST)

Test
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be very nice, if someone could help me with this problem.

Thank you very much,
Nicolas Neuss

From quentusrex at gmail.com  Tue Nov  4 16:51:07 2008
From: quentusrex at gmail.com (William King)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 07:51:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Current status of virtual host feature
Message-ID: <1225813867.8079.73.camel@quentusrex-desktop>

Mark,

Barry said to ask on this list serve, so here goes: What is the current
status of the virtual hosting feature that would remove the limitation
of unique mailing list names? I'm trying to setup a system where I can
host virtual domains and each domain can admin their own lists, and they
can have list names such as 'users at domain1.tld' and still have for
another virtual host 'users at domain2.tld'. In mailman 2.2?

Thanks for your time, I'd be willing to help run code, debug code, and
bug hunt if it will help with the development process. 
-William

From tiberiuturbureanu at gmail.com  Mon Nov  3 09:10:32 2008
From: tiberiuturbureanu at gmail.com (tct13)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:10:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Default cahrset for 'de' to ISO8859-15/UTF-8?
In-Reply-To: <20081003100801.GF21295@mail.incertum.net>
References: <20081003100801.GF21295@mail.incertum.net>
Message-ID: <20298623.post@talk.nabble.com>


Hello Stefan, 


Stefan F?rster-2 wrote:
> 
> Hello world,
> 
> I wonder if there are any plans to change the default charset for the
> 'de' locale of Mailman to anything else than ISO8859-1, because this
> charset cannot even represent our current currency symbol.
> 
> I have changed this myself for now (adding needed variables to
> mm_cfg.py, converting translated templates to the new charset,
> recreating pod files)
> 

I am Romanian and want MM to use utf-8 encoding because iso-8859-2
(current MM charset for Romanian) is not commonly used due its wrong
display of ? and ? letters.

I would really appreciate if you would tell us what changes you have made
to your MM instance so German can have utf-8 encoding.

I have tried changing only the line in mm_cfg.py/Defaults.py
add langauge ("Romanian", ....... charset="utf-8")
but that's not enough.


After I make this change I end up with stuck emails 
(MM doesn't deliver them any more). 

Thank you in advance and hope to hear from you soon
Tibi

P.S. My MM version is 2.1.9
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Default-cahrset-for-%27de%27-to-ISO8859-15-UTF-8--tp19795225p20298623.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Nov  4 20:00:27 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:00:27 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to "mailmain" list oddity
In-Reply-To: <20081104134937.GB24264@hank.org>
References: <PC1870200810271410400828c6114964@msapiro>	<PC1870200810271425410171a2f64d94@msapiro>
	<20081104134937.GB24264@hank.org>
Message-ID: <49109BCB.2070400@shub-internet.org>

Bill Moseley wrote:

> I hope that doesn't break anything?  I can never remember what exactly
> IS the purpose of that "mailman" list, anyway.  What's it used for?

See FAQ 4.25 at <http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030591>.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Nov  4 20:03:01 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:03:01 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using mailman on godaddy hosting?
In-Reply-To: <20255632.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <20255632.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <49109C65.4020507@shub-internet.org>

chromatest wrote:

> So, the first question is:  Can I install mailman without ssh or telnet
> access?

Nope.


But you could ask them if they provide Mailman services for their customers, 
or you could sign up for service with a separate service provider for just 
the mailing list function.

In fact, given their reputation, I think I'd go with the separate service 
provider for your mailing list needs anyway.


Otherwise, you're going to need to upgrade the kind of account you have with 
them, so that you can log in via ssh and install Mailman with the 
appropriate privileges.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Nov  4 20:08:58 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:08:58 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with Mailman/Exim4 mailinglists for
 certain senders
In-Reply-To: <87bpwwiluy.fsf@ma-patru.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de>
References: <87bpwwiluy.fsf@ma-patru.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de>
Message-ID: <49109DCA.4070707@shub-internet.org>

Nicolas Neuss wrote:

> An example is the list 'kurs-6484 at ruprecht.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de'.
> It seems that emails from Solaris/Sendmail systems do not get through,
> because the university mail server asks for the user 'kurs-6484' on my
> server, and is told that this user does not exist.  However, sending from
> other machines to this list (e.g. machines running Postfix or Exim4) seems
> to work without problems and the Exim 4 logs show that the mailman_router
> and mailman_transport is correctly used in that case.

Sounds to me like your aliases aren't set up properly.

> The error message I receive when I send from the Solaris system is as
> follows:

What do you actually get in your log files on your machine?  Check both your 
Exim logs and your Mailman logs.


Without this kind of information, you're flying blind ... into a Category 5 
hurricane ... in the Alps.  And you're probably in an unpressurized aircraft 
which isn't rated for that altitude, much less heavy weather.

The question now is -- do you have your instrument rating, or are you VFR only?

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Nov  4 20:10:24 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:10:24 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Current status of virtual host feature
In-Reply-To: <1225813867.8079.73.camel@quentusrex-desktop>
References: <1225813867.8079.73.camel@quentusrex-desktop>
Message-ID: <49109E20.1010508@shub-internet.org>

William King wrote:

> Thanks for your time, I'd be willing to help run code, debug code, and
> bug hunt if it will help with the development process. 

Development issues and questions should really be handled on the 
mailman-developers list, not mailman-users.

But just asking the status is something I would think is okay for either 
that list or this one.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  4 22:36:17 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:36:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Default cahrset for 'de' to ISO8859-15/UTF-8?
In-Reply-To: <20298623.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811041336170218ceb3b7ab@msapiro>

tct13 wrote:
>
>I am Romanian and want MM to use utf-8 encoding because iso-8859-2
>(current MM charset for Romanian) is not commonly used due its wrong
>display of s and t letters.
>
>I would really appreciate if you would tell us what changes you have made
>to your MM instance so German can have utf-8 encoding.
>
>I have tried changing only the line in mm_cfg.py/Defaults.py
>add langauge ("Romanian", ....... charset="utf-8")
>but that's not enough.


You also have to use iconv or something similar to transliterate
messages/ro/LC-MESSAGES/mailman.po and templates/ro/* from iso-8859-2
to utf-8 and change the charset= parameter on the Content-Type: header
in messages/ro/LC-MESSAGES/mailman.po and then use msgfmt or Mailman's
bin/msgfmt.py to update messages/ro/LC-MESSAGES/mailman.mo from
messages/ro/LC-MESSAGES/mailman.po.


>After I make this change I end up with stuck emails 
>(MM doesn't deliver them any more). 


If you check Mailman's error log, you'll probably find uncaught
exceptions due to trying to process iso-8859-2 templates and/or
messages as utf-8.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Wed Nov  5 00:51:36 2008
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 18:51:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811032034020896b6cca682@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811032034020896b6cca682@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4910E008.2090600@bellsouth.net>

Thanks for all this effort. I chose MailList.patch2.txt. Unfortunately I
did get errors:

patching file ./MailList.py
Hunk #1 FAILED at 75.
Hunk #2 FAILED at 190.
2 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file ./MailList.py.rej

Note that there is no file ./MailList.py.rej. All I changed
(intentionally) was the 10 to a 13. I've attached the patch file just in
case I inadvertently messed something up.

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> You use one or the other, not both. You use MailList.patch.txt if you
> only want to substitute listreq for list-request. You use
> MailList.patch2.txt if you want to substitute lisdadm for list-admin,
> listbou for list-bounces, etc. for all nine of the suffixes.
>
> Step one - edit the patch file to replace the 10 in
>
> +MAGIC_LENGTH = 10
>
> with the actual list name length that makes things too long.
>
> Step two - make a backup of Mailman/MailList.py
>
> Step three -
>
> patch --dry-run /path/to/Mailman/MailList.py < /path/to/the/patch/file
>
> (see 'man patch' for more info)
>
> Depending on your Mailman version, you may see one or two "Hunk #n
> succeeded at offset..." messages from step 3. These are OK, but any
> other messages from step 3 after the "patching file ..." message may
> indicate a problem, so stop and post the error(s)
>
> Step four - If no errors at step 3
>
> patch /path/to/Mailman/MailList.py < /path/to/the/patch/file
>
> Step 5 - restart Mailman.
>
>   

-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: MailList.patch2.txt
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20081104/3e3275ca/attachment.txt>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov  5 01:30:20 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:30:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Configure Repy-To header for confirmations
In-Reply-To: <4910E008.2090600@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <PC187020081104163020090631d7cb1e@msapiro>

Dennis Putnam wrote:
>
>Thanks for all this effort. I chose MailList.patch2.txt. Unfortunately I
>did get errors:
>
>patching file ./MailList.py
>Hunk #1 FAILED at 75.
>Hunk #2 FAILED at 190.
>2 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file ./MailList.py.rej
>
>Note that there is no file ./MailList.py.rej.


The patch command didn't actually create the rejects file because of
the --dry-run option.


>All I changed
>(intentionally) was the 10 to a 13. I've attached the patch file just in
>case I inadvertently messed something up.


Just to be sure we're on the same page, if the base listname is 13
characters long, say abcdefghijklm, then abcdefghijklm-request (and
maybe abcdefghijklm-unsubscribe) is OK, but if it is 14 characters
long, say abcdefghijklmn, then you want abcdefghijklmnrej. That's what
the 13 in the patch means.

I don't know why the patch is failing. What Mailman version is this?
Can you send me (off list) a copy of MailList.py?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov  5 01:41:43 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:41:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with Mailman/Exim4 mailinglists
	forcertain senders
In-Reply-To: <87bpwwiluy.fsf@ma-patru.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de>
Message-ID: <PC18702008110416414300007d4c482b@msapiro>

Nicolas Neuss wrote:
>
>I'm using the Mailman package with Exim 4 on a Debian Etch/testing system
>'ruprecht.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de' (which is an alias for
>'ma-slave.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de', BTW).

This is your problem. You cannot reliably deliver mail to a CNAME. In
order to reliably deliver mail to
'ruprecht.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de', it must have an A record or an
MX record, the target of which has an A record.

What I see in DNS is

ruprecht.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de. 86400 IN CNAME
ma-slave.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de.

and

ma-slave.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de. 86400 IN A 129.13.253.25

and

ma-slave.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de. 86400 IN MX 100
mailin.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de.

What you need is

ruprecht.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de. 86400 IN MX 100
mailin.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de.

and additionally if you need the address

ruprecht.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de. 86400 IN A 129.13.253.25

and definitely no CNAME.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov  5 01:54:40 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:54:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Current status of virtual host feature
In-Reply-To: <1225813867.8079.73.camel@quentusrex-desktop>
Message-ID: <PC18702008110416544003127d4c4960@msapiro>

William King wrote:
>
>Barry said to ask on this list serve, so here goes: What is the current
>status of the virtual hosting feature that would remove the limitation
>of unique mailing list names? I'm trying to setup a system where I can
>host virtual domains and each domain can admin their own lists, and they
>can have list names such as 'users at domain1.tld' and still have for
>another virtual host 'users at domain2.tld'. In mailman 2.2?


This is in Mailman 3.0 <http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+3.0>.

It could be in 2.2, but so far, I haven't done anything towards this
end, and I'm not promising I will.

At this point, there is no definite timetable for release of either 2.2
or 3.0, but there is active development on both.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From slund348 at pobox.com  Wed Nov  5 03:05:26 2008
From: slund348 at pobox.com (Steve Lund)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 21:05:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Connecting Mailman to a Web Page
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20081104200741.01a93638@pop-server.nc.rr.com>

Mailman Gurus,

I am currently doing volunteer work for a small non-profit organization. 
Our web site host (RTPnet.org) also offers Mailman e-mail lists as part of 
the hosting package. Therefore we don't have server access to Mailman other 
than as a user with lists setup.

The organization has a "chat" Mailman list. Currently the list 
administrator is manually adding users to this list. However, we would like 
to allow the user to do this themselves by entering a name and email 
address in a box on one of the web pages. For Spam protection the list is 
setup to "confirm" all subscriptions.

Can any of you offer suggestions or point to resources of how to do this 
from a web page? There doesn't seem to be any info or pointers to resources 
on the Mailman site as to how to do this.


Thanks,

Steve


From neuss at math.uni-karlsruhe.de  Wed Nov  5 13:13:23 2008
From: neuss at math.uni-karlsruhe.de (Nicolas Neuss)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 13:13:23 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with Mailman/Exim4 mailinglists for
	certain senders
In-Reply-To: <49109DCA.4070707@shub-internet.org> (Brad Knowles's message of
	"Tue\, 04 Nov 2008 13\:08\:58 -0600")
References: <87bpwwiluy.fsf@ma-patru.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de>
	<49109DCA.4070707@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <87ljvyz7z0.fsf@ma-patru.mathematik.uni-karlsruhe.de>

Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org> writes:

> Nicolas Neuss wrote:
>
> ...
>
> Sounds to me like your aliases aren't set up properly.
>
> What do you actually get in your log files on your machine?  Check both
> your Exim logs and your Mailman logs.
>
> Without this kind of information, you're flying blind ... into a Category
> 5 hurricane ... in the Alps.  And you're probably in an unpressurized
> aircraft which isn't rated for that altitude, much less heavy weather.
>
> The question now is -- do you have your instrument rating, or are you VFR
> only?

:-) 

Thank you for the nice analogy.  Indeed, I have no IFR rating (translation:
know very little about MTAs, Python, and configuring Mailman).  Therefore,
I decided that I need ground help.  And hints as the above about aliases or
Mark Sapiros post are very important for me.

I guess that the problem is indeed what Mark Sapiro wrote, because the two
names are indeed a peculiarity of my setup.  Tomorrow, we (I and our domain
administrator) want to try changing the names for the server.  I'll report
back, if it does (or does not) help.

Thanks to everyone,
Nicolas Neuss

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Nov  5 17:21:03 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 10:21:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Connecting Mailman to a Web Page
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20081104200741.01a93638@pop-server.nc.rr.com>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20081104200741.01a93638@pop-server.nc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4911C7EF.8020308@shub-internet.org>

Steve Lund wrote:

> Can any of you offer suggestions or point to resources of how to do this 
> from a web page? There doesn't seem to be any info or pointers to 
> resources on the Mailman site as to how to do this.

Mailman has a built-in web interface.  This web interface allows users to 
sign themselves up for mailing lists, as well as allowing list owners to 
manage their lists, etc....

What about this process is not working?  And why haven't you contacted your 
provider first?

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov  5 17:32:40 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 08:32:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Connecting Mailman to a Web Page
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20081104200741.01a93638@pop-server.nc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020081105083240028100922881@msapiro>

Steve Lund wrote:
>
>Can any of you offer suggestions or point to resources of how to do this 
>from a web page? There doesn't seem to be any info or pointers to resources 
>on the Mailman site as to how to do this.


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/hIA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mhutin at gmail.com  Wed Nov  5 18:38:40 2008
From: mhutin at gmail.com (Matthieu HUTIN)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 18:38:40 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest always in MIME
In-Reply-To: <490D5D2E.10501@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <C53798B0.23FDE%mhutin@gmail.com>

02/11/08 08:56 : ??Brad Knowles?? a ?crit?:

> If you want to send me a complete, unredacted copy of the message in
> question (with all headers intact), I'll be glad to take a look at it
> for you and see if I can spot anything obvious.  Alternatively, if you
> like I can subscribe to your "liste" and we can try out some things that
> way.  All I ask is that you keep in mind that I don't speak or read
> French, despite of the fact that I lived in Belgium for nearly eight
> years and my wife and I moved back to the US just a couple years ago.

Dear Brad

Sorry for the delay I was out of town...

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation and offer.

Hopefully (but incomprehensibly) it is now working correctly after applying
many times the Plain Text option in the mailman admin.

What I still don't explain is that it looks like the Admin interface was
displaying good setting, but the "real" file where is stored the information
was not updated correctly (until it worked by magic !..)

Do you kow where the plain text option is stored to check it if it happens
again in the future ?

Once agin thank you for your assistance. Even if I don't have a technical
answer to my issue and it's working, I feel like I'm missing something not
knowing why it didn't work for several weeks...

Best
-- 
Matthieu HUTIN
Ceux qui ne luttent pas contre le mal, finissent par le servir....



From mhutin at gmail.com  Wed Nov  5 18:40:14 2008
From: mhutin at gmail.com (Matthieu HUTIN)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 18:40:14 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest always in MIME
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008110205571002031b55e915@Notebook>
Message-ID: <C537990E.23FE2%mhutin@gmail.com>

02/11/08 14:57 : ??Mark Sapiro?? a ?crit?:

>>> I can't get my digests to be sended in other than MIME although Plain Text
>>> is selected. Any way to get this solved ? I have access to the server if any
>>> CLI need to be used. I'm running 2.1.11
>> 
>> Check the messages in the digest, as well as the digest header and
>> footer.  I'm willing to bet that there is a character set or
>> content-transfer-encoding difference somewhere in there, which is
>> forcing the MIME formatting.
> 
> 
> I don't think that would do it. Those things should be recoded or
> scrubbed.
> 
> When you say "Plain Text is selected", do you mean "When receiving
> digests, which format is default" on the admin Digest options page? If
> so, that only controls the default setting for new list members. Each
> existing member has an individual setting for "Get MIME or Plain Text
> Digests" on the user options page which reflected by the presence or
> absence of a check in the box in the "plain" column on the admin
> Membership List pages.

Thansk for answering Mark

As I just answered to Brad, it is now working correctly, but yes, both
server side and end users where using Plain Text in the Options.

Best
-- 
Matthieu HUTIN
Ceux qui ne luttent pas contre le mal, finissent par le servir....



From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Nov  5 17:21:03 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 10:21:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Connecting Mailman to a Web Page
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20081104200741.01a93638@pop-server.nc.rr.com>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20081104200741.01a93638@pop-server.nc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4911C7EF.8020308@shub-internet.org>

Steve Lund wrote:

> Can any of you offer suggestions or point to resources of how to do this 
> from a web page? There doesn't seem to be any info or pointers to 
> resources on the Mailman site as to how to do this.

Mailman has a built-in web interface.  This web interface allows users to 
sign themselves up for mailing lists, as well as allowing list owners to 
manage their lists, etc....

What about this process is not working?  And why haven't you contacted your 
provider first?

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Nov  5 21:15:47 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:15:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest always in MIME
In-Reply-To: <C53798B0.23FDE%mhutin@gmail.com>
References: <C53798B0.23FDE%mhutin@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4911FEF3.5040401@shub-internet.org>

Matthieu HUTIN wrote:

> Do you kow where the plain text option is stored to check it if it happens
> again in the future ?

Sorry, I'm not a developer, so I don't know the internals of Mailman.  Mark 
or one of the other developers might be able to answer that question.

> Once agin thank you for your assistance. Even if I don't have a technical
> answer to my issue and it's working, I feel like I'm missing something not
> knowing why it didn't work for several weeks...

That's a feeling I most definitely understand and sympathize with.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From Jan at Bytesmiths.com  Thu Nov  6 01:36:17 2008
From: Jan at Bytesmiths.com (Jan Steinman)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 16:36:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Connecting Mailman to a Web Page
In-Reply-To: <mailman.22410.1225916154.3486.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.22410.1225916154.3486.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <6494F160-8CB5-43A5-BEA1-E69B8D7E4B5E@Bytesmiths.com>

> I am currently doing volunteer work for a small non-profit  
> organization. Our web site host (RTPnet.org) also offers Mailman e- 
> mail lists as part of the hosting package. Therefore we don't have  
> server access to Mailman other than as a user with lists setup.
>
> The organization has a "chat" Mailman list. Currently the list  
> administrator is manually adding users to this list. However, we  
> would like to allow the user to do this themselves by entering a  
> name and email address in a box on one of the web pages. For Spam  
> protection the list is setup to "confirm" all subscriptions.
>
> Can any of you offer suggestions or point to resources of how to do  
> this from a web page? There doesn't seem to be any info or pointers  
> to resources on the Mailman site as to how to do this.

<form action="http://www.YourDomainHere.com/mailman/subscribe/YourEmailListName 
" method="post" style="display:inline"> <table border="0"  
cellpadding="4"> <tr><td colspan="2"><div  
align="center"><h3>Subscribe</h3></div></td></tr> <tr><td  
align="left">Name:</td> <td><input type="text" name="fullname"  
size="10" value=""></td></tr> <tr><td align="left">Email Address:</td>  
<td><input type="text" name="email" size="10" value=""></td></tr>  
<tr><td></td><td> <input type="submit" name="Subscribe!"  
value="Subscribe!"></td></tr> </table> </form>


:::: The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country.  
-- George W. Bush ::::
:::: Jan Steinman <http://www.VeggieVanGogh.com> ::::



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov  6 02:17:03 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 17:17:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest always in MIME
In-Reply-To: <C53798B0.23FDE%mhutin@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020081105171703039095096089@msapiro>

Matthieu HUTIN wrote:
>
>What I still don't explain is that it looks like the Admin interface was
>displaying good setting, but the "real" file where is stored the information
>was not updated correctly (until it worked by magic !..)


If you have GNU Mailman installed from source or from someones package
withou major modifications, the list configuration, membership, member
options, etc. are all in the lists/listname/config.pck file. The web
admin interface reads them from there and updates them there and the
process that produces the digests gets the settings from the same
place.

Even if you have a custom MemberAdaptor that uses some other persistent
store for member options, buth the production of digests and the
display in the admin interface should be seeing the same setting.

>Do you kow where the plain text option is stored to check it if it happens
>again in the future ?


Assuming it's the standard MemberAdaptor, you can do

 bin/dumpdb lists/listname/config.pck

In the output from that, there will be a user_options dictionary with
keys of list member addresses and numeric values. These are decimal
numbers which when viewed as binary have bits for various user options
as defined in the "Bitfield for user options." section of Defaults.py.
The bit for "plain" digests has weight = 8 in the decimal user_options
value.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From slund348 at pobox.com  Thu Nov  6 02:08:30 2008
From: slund348 at pobox.com (Steve Lund)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 20:08:30 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Connecting Mailman to a Web Page
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081105083240028100922881@msapiro>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20081104200741.01a93638@pop-server.nc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20081105200202.025bf0b8@pop-server.nc.rr.com>

Mark,

Thanks for the pointer it does look pretty easy.

Next stupid question... Are all of these Mailman variables and uses 
documented in one place somewhere or is it best to just reverse engineer an 
example web page that has the functionality that you need?


Thanks,

Steve



At 08:32 AM 11/5/2008 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>Steve Lund wrote:
> >
> >Can any of you offer suggestions or point to resources of how to do this
> >from a web page? There doesn't seem to be any info or pointers to resources
> >on the Mailman site as to how to do this.
>
>
>See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/hIA9>.
>
>--
>Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov  6 04:49:48 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:49:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Connecting Mailman to a Web Page
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20081105200202.025bf0b8@pop-server.nc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008110519494806561232f080@msapiro>

Steve Lund wrote:
>
>Next stupid question... Are all of these Mailman variables and uses 
>documented in one place somewhere or is it best to just reverse engineer an 
>example web page that has the functionality that you need?


I'm sorry to say there is little or no documentation at this level
outside of the web pages themselves, the Python source code and some
FAQ articles and email list posts.

Reverse engineering of example web pages is likely to be the the most
productive approach.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mhutin at gmail.com  Thu Nov  6 10:39:17 2008
From: mhutin at gmail.com (Matthieu HUTIN)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 10:39:17 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest always in MIME
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081105171703039095096089@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C53879D5.24007%mhutin@gmail.com>

06/11/08 02:17 : ??Mark Sapiro?? a ?crit?:

> Assuming it's the standard MemberAdaptor, you can do
> 
>  bin/dumpdb lists/listname/config.pck
> 
> In the output from that, there will be a user_options dictionary with
> keys of list member addresses and numeric values. These are decimal
> numbers which when viewed as binary have bits for various user options
> as defined in the "Bitfield for user options." section of Defaults.py.
> The bit for "plain" digests has weight = 8 in the decimal user_options
> value.

That's great to know with the CLI :-)

I've ajusted the path to utilities to get it working with my official GNU
Mailman Debian Etch install

/usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb /var/lib/mailman/lists/listname/config.pck

Thanks

Have a nice day
-- 
Matthieu HUTIN
Ceux qui ne luttent pas contre le mal, finissent par le servir....



From Jan at Bytesmiths.com  Fri Nov  7 06:57:53 2008
From: Jan at Bytesmiths.com (Jan Steinman)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:57:53 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Connecting Mailman to a Web Page
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10.1225969204.28211.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.10.1225969204.28211.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <2E67DF7D-A04A-47FC-8DA3-B06905978443@Bytesmiths.com>

> From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
>
> Reverse engineering of example web pages is likely to be the the most
> productive approach.

And if you know a bit about HTML forms, this is really quite simple,  
and is how I came up with the example I posted.

Simply look at the HTML source of any page of interest, then make the  
fields in your own form use the same "name" attribute.

I did this (for example) to help a computer-timid person maintain  
subscriptions by putting a simple TEXTAREA named "subscribees" on the  
admin page of their website. (They were intimidated by going through  
the Mailman admin interface, and all they ever wanted to do was add  
and delete subscribers.)


:::: "With your intensive agriculture," he went on, "you're simply  
draining the soil of phosphorus. More than half of one per cent a  
year. Going clean out of circulation. And then the way you throw away  
hundreds of thousands of tons of phosphorus pentoxide in your sewage!  
Pouring it into the sea. And you call that progress. Your modern  
sewage systems!" His tone was witheringly scornful. "You ought to be  
putting it back where it came from. On the land." Lord Edward shook an  
admonitory finger and frowned. "On the land, I tell you." -- Aldus  
Huxley, from "Point Counter Point," published 1928 ::::
:::: Jan Steinman, EcoReality http://www.EcoReality.org ::::




From prudek at bvx.cz  Fri Nov  7 13:19:31 2008
From: prudek at bvx.cz (Milos Prudek)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 13:19:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
Message-ID: <200811071319.31491.prudek@bvx.cz>

I configured Mailman on my Ubuntu system using postfix-to-mailman.py. I 
followed https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mailman. I created no aliases at 
all as required by postfix-to-mailman.py.

I created the site-wide Mailman maling list, and a first list called "t" with 
all options at default values. I enrolled some users. Everything looks OK. 
But all emails sent to the list are discarded by mailman.

Each new mail is logged into /var/log/smtp, /var/log/post, and /var/log/vette. 
Example:

/var/log/smtp
Nov 07 13:06:42 2008 (24564) <200811071306.35903.prudek at bvx.cz> smtp to t for 
3 recips, completed in 0.015 seconds

/var/log/post
Nov 07 13:06:42 2008 (24564) post to t from prudek at bvx.cz, size=2190, 
message-id=<200811071306.35903.prudek at bvx.cz>, success

/var/log/vette
Nov 07 13:06:48 2008 (24562) Message discarded, msgid: 
<200811071306.35903.prudek at bvx.cz>

However, the email is correctly saved into archive 
at /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/t with all expected files correctly 
created (2008-November.txt, 2008-November.txt.gz and so on).

Why Mailman archives but does not distribute?

-- 
Milos Prudek

From tiberiuturbureanu at gmail.com  Sat Nov  8 00:36:29 2008
From: tiberiuturbureanu at gmail.com (Tibi Turbureanu)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 01:36:29 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Default cahrset for 'de' to ISO8859-15/UTF-8?
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811041336170218ceb3b7ab@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811041336170218ceb3b7ab@msapiro>
Message-ID: <1226100989.7032.25.camel@tn>

On Tue, 2008-11-04 at 13:36 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> tct13 wrote:
> >
> >I am Romanian and want MM to use utf-8 encoding because iso-8859-2
> >(current MM charset for Romanian) is not commonly used due its wrong
> >display of s and t letters.
> >
> >I would really appreciate if you would tell us what changes you have made
> >to your MM instance so German can have utf-8 encoding.
> >
> >I have tried changing only the line in mm_cfg.py/Defaults.py
> >add langauge ("Romanian", ....... charset="utf-8")
> >but that's not enough.
> 
> 
> You also have to use iconv or something similar to transliterate
> messages/ro/LC-MESSAGES/mailman.po and templates/ro/* from iso-8859-2
> to utf-8 and change the charset= parameter on the Content-Type: header
> in messages/ro/LC-MESSAGES/mailman.po and then use msgfmt or Mailman's
> bin/msgfmt.py to update messages/ro/LC-MESSAGES/mailman.mo from
> messages/ro/LC-MESSAGES/mailman.po.
> 
> 
> >After I make this change I end up with stuck emails 
> >(MM doesn't deliver them any more). 
> 
> 
> If you check Mailman's error log, you'll probably find uncaught
> exceptions due to trying to process iso-8859-2 templates and/or
> messages as utf-8.
> 
Thank you, it worked! Now we have utf-8 encoding and it's cool. ;-)

We would like to write a minitutor for changing the encoding in MM and a
patch which can change this in the current dev version. I don't know a
single Romanian who still uses iso-8859-2 standard.

I'll come back with references.

Thank you,
Tibi

From tungo at vef.gov  Fri Nov  7 05:04:17 2008
From: tungo at vef.gov (Tu Ngo)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:04:17 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Long name of the attachemnets in mailman list
Message-ID: <023401c9408d$ea3d44a0$beb7cde0$@gov>

Hello everyone,

 

Recently, when I sent to our mailing list (using mailman) a message with a
attachment with a long name ("VEF Annual Conf 2009 - Announcement - Fellows
& Visiting Scholars.pdf") . As a recipient, I received the attachment with
the name that has been changed to ATT00462.pdf. The content of the
attachment had not been changed.  So, I have some questions that I hope
someone can answer: 

1.       Does the mailman automatically rename the attachment due to the
long name of the attachment?

2.       If yes, how long should the name of the attachment be so that it
would not be changed by mailman?

3.       If no, could you please explain to me the reason why the name had
been changed?

 

I would appreciate your reply soon.

 

Thanks,

 

Tu Ngo 

 


From brad at shub-internet.org  Sat Nov  8 05:18:50 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 22:18:50 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <200811071319.31491.prudek@bvx.cz>
References: <200811071319.31491.prudek@bvx.cz>
Message-ID: <4915132A.7050806@shub-internet.org>

Milos Prudek wrote:

> Why Mailman archives but does not distribute?

Search the FAQ Wiki for "troubleshooting".

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov  8 16:25:39 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 07:25:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <200811071319.31491.prudek@bvx.cz>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811080725390718e6a8a175@msapiro>

Milos Prudek wrote:

>But all emails sent to the list are discarded by mailman.


Not really. See below.


>Each new mail is logged into /var/log/smtp, /var/log/post, and /var/log/vette. 
>Example:
>
>/var/log/smtp
>Nov 07 13:06:42 2008 (24564) <200811071306.35903.prudek at bvx.cz> smtp to t for 
>3 recips, completed in 0.015 seconds


This says the message was delivered to the outgoing MTA for 3
recipients.


>/var/log/post
>Nov 07 13:06:42 2008 (24564) post to t from prudek at bvx.cz, size=2190, 
>message-id=<200811071306.35903.prudek at bvx.cz>, success


And this says the post was successfully delivered.


>/var/log/vette
>Nov 07 13:06:48 2008 (24562) Message discarded, msgid: 
><200811071306.35903.prudek at bvx.cz>


And this says the same Message-ID was automatically discarded 6 seconds
after being sent.


>However, the email is correctly saved into archive 
>at /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/t with all expected files correctly 
>created (2008-November.txt, 2008-November.txt.gz and so on).
>
>Why Mailman archives but does not distribute?


The message is being received, processed and delivered. I am guessing
that at least one of the recipients of the message loops back to
Mailman because one of the list members is a list address or something
is not properly set up with postfix-to-mailman.py. This message is
then discarded by Mailman because of the X-BeenThere: header

You need to look at Postfix's log (/var/log/maillog) to see what was
done with the messages to those 3 recipients.

Also, not to pick on you specifically because you certainly aren't
unique in this, but I wonder why people choose to follow 3rd party
installation instructions about which we know nothing, but come here
for help when they have problems.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov  8 16:39:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 07:39:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Long name of the attachemnets in mailman list
In-Reply-To: <023401c9408d$ea3d44a0$beb7cde0$@gov>
Message-ID: <PC18702008110807391207183d392d9a@msapiro>

Tu Ngo wrote:
>
>1.       Does the mailman automatically rename the attachment due to the
>long name of the attachment?
>
>2.       If yes, how long should the name of the attachment be so that it
>would not be changed by mailman?
>
>3.       If no, could you please explain to me the reason why the name had
>been changed?


This is all controlled by configuration settings. The default settings
are

SCRUBBER_DONT_USE_ATTACHMENT_FILENAME = True

SCRUBBER_USE_ATTACHMENT_FILENAME_EXTENSION = False

which means that all stored attachments will have a "made up" name and
an extension based on the MIME Content-Type of the attachment.

In order to preserve the original name and extension of the attachment
when it is stored, you need to set

SCRUBBER_DONT_USE_ATTACHMENT_FILENAME = False
SCRUBBER_USE_ATTACHMENT_FILENAME_EXTENSION = True

in mm_cfg.py, but this can allow attachments to be stored with names
that might not be valid on all systems and with extensions that might
disguise the actual content type.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov  8 20:54:02 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 11:54:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <200811081826.40407.prudek@bvx.cz>
References: <PC1870200811080725390718e6a8a175@msapiro>
	<200811081826.40407.prudek@bvx.cz>
Message-ID: <4915EE5A.2090107@msapiro.net>

Milos Prudek wrote:
> 
> Some SpamAssassing processing follows. And then...
> 
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pickup[2357]: D2FC5CBA73: uid=500 
> from=<t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz>
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/cleanup[3612]: D2FC5CBA73: 
> message-id=<200811081741.00552.prudek at bvx.cz>
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
> to=<prudek at bvx.cz>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, dsn=2.0.0, 
> status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
> to=<member1 at example.com>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, 
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
> to=<member2 at example.com>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, 
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)
> 
> The last three lines look like correct distribution by Mailman to the three 
> members via SpamAssassin... but none of the list members prudek at bvx.cz, 
> member1 at example.com, member2 at example.com receive any emails... and then....


So Mailman has done the correct thing. The question is why isn't Postfix
delivering the three messages to the three recipients?


> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: 64731CBA97: removed
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: D2FC5CBA73: 
> from=<t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz>, size=2381, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop spamd[8350]: prefork: child states: II
> Nov  8 17:41:12 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3751]: D2FC5CBA73: 
> to=<t at z.docestiny.cz>, relay=mailman, delay=0.24, delays=0.01/0/0/0.23, 
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via mailman service)
> Nov  8 17:41:12 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: D2FC5CBA73: removed
> 
> Is this suspicious? t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz is sending email to 
> t at z.docestiny.cz (the list itself).... is this a loop? What may be causing 
> it? I triple-checked that the list address t at z.docestiny.cz IS NOT among list 
> members...


I think this is not Mailman but some issue with postfix-to-mailman.py
that is relaying this message back to the list. If mailman were actually
sending a message to t at z.docestiny.cz, there would be an entry in
Mailman's smtp log, but the only entry is for the delivery to the 3 list
members which is accounted for elsewhere in the Postfix log. I.e., the
64731CBA97 queue entry is the delivery from Mailman to Postfix for 3
recipients. There is no entry in Mailman's smtp log to correspond to the
Postfix D2FC5CBA73 queue entry, so it didn't come from Mailman.


> There is NO MORE traffic from mailman in /var/log/mail.info. And precisely at 
> the same time, 17:41:12, the following appears in /var/log/mailman/vette:
> Nov 08 17:41:12 2008 (17697) Message discarded, msgid: 
> <200811081741.00552.prudek at bvx.cz>


Because Mailman has received the post back to the list, and it knows
this is a loop because of the "X-BeenThere: t at z.docestiny.cz" header it
put in the outgoing posts, so it discards this one.

And Milos Prudek wrote:
> I looked again what happened at 17:41:11... and I realized something 
> important.
> 
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop spamd[1840]: spamd: result: . 0 - 
> scantime=4.4,size=2259,user=filter,uid=500,required_score=5.0,rhost=localhost,raddr=127.0.0.1,rport=37
> 454,mid=<200811081741.00552.prudek at bvx.cz>,autolearn=ham
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pickup[2357]: D2FC5CBA73: uid=500 
> from=<t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz>
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/cleanup[3612]: D2FC5CBA73: 
> message-id=<200811081741.00552.prudek at bvx.cz>
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
> to=<prudek at bvx.cz>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, dsn=2.0.0, 
> status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
> to=<member1 at example.com>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, 
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)
> Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
> to=<member2 at example.com>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, 
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)
> 
> 
> This mail 64731CBA97 is delivered from spamassassin as clean... and then 
> something similar to this line OUGHT to appear:
> 
> ... postfix/smtp[7307]: .... to=<prudek at bvx.cz>, 
> relay=mail.rtv5.cz[212.96.165.43]:25
> 
> Notice the relay=mail.rtv5.cz[212.96.165.43]:25, this is the mailserver for 
> prudek at bvx.cz. But this line DOES NOT appear. Neither do the other two lines 
> for member1 at example.com and member2 at example.com (domain example.com is not 
> the real one). So Postfix is NEVER instructed to deliver the emails to their 
> real external destinations.
> 
> Instead some email is sent from t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz to the mailing list 
> itself (t at z.docestiny.cz):


This is almost certainly a problem with mailman-to-postfix.py or the way
you have hooked it in to Postfix.

Or perhaps there is an alias somewhere in postfix that is doing this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov  8 23:01:34 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 14:01:34 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <200811082216.23868.prudek@bvx.cz>
Message-ID: <PC18702008110814013402031fdc51ed@msapiro>

Milos Prudek wrote:
>
>There is no useful information that mailman could tell me if I hacked its 
>source code to report more to ../mailman/vette, is there?


You can get more information, but I think you'll see that this
'discarded' message is just a relay of the outbound message back to
the list.

If you look at Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py, you'll see as part of
the exception processing in _dopipeline()

            except Errors.DiscardMessage:
                # Throw the message away; we need do nothing else with
it.
                syslog('vette', 'Message discarded, msgid: %s',
                       msg.get('message-id', 'n/a'))
                return 0

If you add a line to this to make it

            except Errors.DiscardMessage:
                # Throw the message away; we need do nothing else with
it.
                syslog('vette', 'Message discarded, msgid: %s',
                       msg.get('message-id', 'n/a'))
                self._shunt.enqueue(msg, msgdata)
                return 0

when the message is discarded, it will be copied along with its
metadata to an entry in the shunt queue. This entry is a file in
qfiles/shunt with a name like
1199323852.640625+bd387fe2090d9da45bff22922d1be0d4b54ec73a.pck. The
part to the left of the '+' is a timestamp and the part to the right
is a hash of the message.

You can then dump this file with Mailman's bin/dumpdb, and you will see
the full message and metadata. I suspect, however that this won't tell
you anything you don't already know.

However, in thinking about this, I have another idea. You send a
message to the list. It has a header

To: t at z.docestiny.cz

Mailman resends it with envelope recipients equal to the 3 list
members, but the message data still has the original To: header.
Something in Postfix/spamassassin/postfix-to-mailman.py is relaying
these outbound messages based on To: header rather than envelope
recipient.

If you can't figure out what in the
Postfix/spamassassin/postfix-to-mailman.py configuration is doing
this, you can at least verify whether or not this is the issue by
setting

OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes

in mm_cfg.py and setting the list for Full Personalization on the
Non-digest options page. This will cause Mailman to rewrite the To:
header with the address of the recipient, and if the messages are then
delivered to the list members, you'll know it is the To: header that
is causing the problem.

You could also test further by just using the Postfix 'sendmail'
command to send a message to userb at ... which has a To: header of
usera at ... (not in the z.docestiny.cz domain) and see if that is
properly delivered to userb and not usera. If not, it's probably not
postfix-to-mailman.py related, but if that is properly delivered, try
a To: t at z.docestiny.cz header in the message.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From andrew at field.co.zw  Sat Nov  8 10:51:48 2008
From: andrew at field.co.zw (Andrew Field > ZOL)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:51:48 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is your mail getting there?
Message-ID: <23F428405CAC47D7A47B6E1357AA0B57@LaptopadfII>

This may seem a little bit strange a question.  How do you know if your mail
sent through Mailman is getting to all members of your particular list.  I
run a list which contains 1,300 members.  I have five addresses on this list
and I know that messages sent were only delivered to one of my addresses
(different names and domains).  Question is how man others on the list are
not receiving the mail?  Can one ascertain who received and who did not?  I
suspect the problem might lay with the anti-spamming rules of the server on
which I operate - they only allow so many messages to be sent through a mail
box each hour.  What I don't know is how Mailman reacts to this, does it
process according to the server's anti spam rules or does it just roll over
and die, not completing the task?

With kind regards

Andrew D Field
PO Box HG 935, Highlands, Zimbabwe




From georgec_f at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  8 13:28:54 2008
From: georgec_f at yahoo.com (George F)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 04:28:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Add or remove local accounts to a mailing list
	automatically
Message-ID: <240868.56862.qm@web111108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi all,
?
?I need to setup a mailing list, that?is going?to be used only by our internal mail users.
?
?I installed mailman 2.1.9 on my system (RedHat 5.2) and I created the mailing list.
?
?How can I add the local accounts (i.e. the Linux system accounts) to that list? Can this list be?updated?automatically every time I add or remove a local account?
?
?Thanks in advance,
?
George.


      

From prudek at bvx.cz  Sat Nov  8 10:35:40 2008
From: prudek at bvx.cz (Milos Prudek)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:35:40 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <4915132A.7050806@shub-internet.org>
References: <200811071319.31491.prudek@bvx.cz>
	<4915132A.7050806@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <200811081035.41087.prudek@bvx.cz>


> Search the FAQ Wiki for "troubleshooting".

OK, thanks. I am reviewing "4.78. Troubleshooting: No mail going out to lists 
members", which says "To create a mailman list you ran "newlist" and it 
printed out four (or ten) lines that you needed to copy to the /etc/aliases 
file". 

This advice seems to be wrong. I set MTA=None in mm_cfg.py and no lines to 
copy to /etc/aliases were printed.

This advice conflicts directly with advice in "postfix-to-mailman.py": "Does 
not require the creation of _any_ aliases to connect lists to your mail 
system."

Who is right, the "4.78. Troubleshooting" or "postfix-to-mailman.py"?

-- 
Milos Prudek

From prudek at bvx.cz  Sat Nov  8 11:13:16 2008
From: prudek at bvx.cz (Milos Prudek)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:13:16 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <4915132A.7050806@shub-internet.org>
References: <200811071319.31491.prudek@bvx.cz>
	<4915132A.7050806@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <200811081113.17032.prudek@bvx.cz>


> Search the FAQ Wiki for "troubleshooting".

I am done reviewing all items under "4.78. Troubleshooting: No mail going out 
to lists members".

Everything checks. I get no posts but I do get notifications, like "you have 
been subscribed". I checked all items but the problems persists. The relevant 
logs /var/log/vette, /var/log/smtp and /var/log/post are in my previous post

Mailman 2.1.9-9ubuntu1
installed through apt-get
OS Linux Kubuntu 8.04, kernel 2.6.24
MTA Postfix 2.5.1-2ubuntu1.2

-- 
Milos Prudek

From prudek at bvx.cz  Sat Nov  8 18:26:40 2008
From: prudek at bvx.cz (Milos Prudek)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 18:26:40 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811080725390718e6a8a175@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811080725390718e6a8a175@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200811081826.40407.prudek@bvx.cz>


> Also, not to pick on you specifically because you certainly aren't
> unique in this, but I wonder why people choose to follow 3rd party
> installation instructions about which we know nothing, but come here
> for help when they have problems.

Good point. It did not occur to me to try asking the Ubuntu howto author. 
Often such person may have moved on and has forgotten how he/she did it, or 
his/her experience may be limited to a specific successfull installation. It 
is also very personal to ask someone for advice. It seems safer to ask a pool 
of users who are active members and are likely to have current knowledge. 

> The message is being received, processed and delivered. I am guessing
> that at least one of the recipients of the message loops back to
> Mailman because one of the list members is a list address or something

No list member is the mailing list itself.

> is not properly set up with postfix-to-mailman.py. This message is
> then discarded by Mailman because of the X-BeenThere: header

I looked at the Postfix logs for one mail sent by myself to testing mailing 
list t at z.docestiny.cz. I removed the SpamAssassin processing lines because 
they are hopefully irrelevant.

Nov  8 17:41:05 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: 87A31CBA8A: 
from=<prudek at bvx.cz>, size=1416, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Nov  8 17:41:05 milos-desktop spamd[8350]: prefork: child states: II
Nov  8 17:41:05 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3751]: 87A31CBA8A: 
to=<t at z.docestiny.cz>, relay=mailman, delay=0.22, delays=0.01/0/0/0.21, 
dsn=2.0.0, status=se
nt (delivered via mailman service)
Nov  8 17:41:05 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: 87A31CBA8A: removed

Now onto /var/log/smtp:

Nov 08 17:41:07 2008 (17699) <200811081741.00552.prudek at bvx.cz> smtp to t for 
3 recips, completed in 0.010 seconds

And at the same time, 17:41:07, at /var/log/mail.info:

Nov  8 17:41:07 milos-desktop postfix/smtpd[3532]: 64731CBA97: 
client=localhost[127.0.0.1]
Nov  8 17:41:07 milos-desktop postfix/cleanup[3612]: 64731CBA97: 
message-id=<200811081741.00552.prudek at bvx.cz>
Nov  8 17:41:07 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: 64731CBA97: 
from=<t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz>, size=2272, nrcpt=3 (queue active)
Nov  8 17:41:07 milos-desktop postfix/smtpd[3532]: disconnect from 
localhost[127.0.0.1]

The nrcpts=3 is probably the number of recipients. This is exactly OK. This 
mailing list has got 3 members.

Some SpamAssassing processing follows. And then...

Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pickup[2357]: D2FC5CBA73: uid=500 
from=<t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz>
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/cleanup[3612]: D2FC5CBA73: 
message-id=<200811081741.00552.prudek at bvx.cz>
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
to=<prudek at bvx.cz>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, dsn=2.0.0, 
status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
to=<member1 at example.com>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, 
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
to=<member2 at example.com>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, 
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)

The last three lines look like correct distribution by Mailman to the three 
members via SpamAssassin... but none of the list members prudek at bvx.cz, 
member1 at example.com, member2 at example.com receive any emails... and then....

Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: 64731CBA97: removed
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: D2FC5CBA73: 
from=<t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz>, size=2381, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop spamd[8350]: prefork: child states: II
Nov  8 17:41:12 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3751]: D2FC5CBA73: 
to=<t at z.docestiny.cz>, relay=mailman, delay=0.24, delays=0.01/0/0/0.23, 
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via mailman service)
Nov  8 17:41:12 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: D2FC5CBA73: removed

Is this suspicious? t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz is sending email to 
t at z.docestiny.cz (the list itself).... is this a loop? What may be causing 
it? I triple-checked that the list address t at z.docestiny.cz IS NOT among list 
members...

There is NO MORE traffic from mailman in /var/log/mail.info. And precisely at 
the same time, 17:41:12, the following appears in /var/log/mailman/vette:
Nov 08 17:41:12 2008 (17697) Message discarded, msgid: 
<200811081741.00552.prudek at bvx.cz>

-- 
Milos Prudek

From prudek at bvx.cz  Sat Nov  8 19:05:51 2008
From: prudek at bvx.cz (Milos Prudek)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 19:05:51 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
Message-ID: <200811081905.51537.prudek@bvx.cz>

I looked again what happened at 17:41:11... and I realized something 
important.

Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop spamd[1840]: spamd: result: . 0 - 
scantime=4.4,size=2259,user=filter,uid=500,required_score=5.0,rhost=localhost,raddr=127.0.0.1,rport=37
454,mid=<200811081741.00552.prudek at bvx.cz>,autolearn=ham
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pickup[2357]: D2FC5CBA73: uid=500 
from=<t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz>
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/cleanup[3612]: D2FC5CBA73: 
message-id=<200811081741.00552.prudek at bvx.cz>
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
to=<prudek at bvx.cz>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, dsn=2.0.0, 
status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
to=<member1 at example.com>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, 
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3613]: 64731CBA97: 
to=<member2 at example.com>, relay=spamchk, delay=4.5, delays=0.01/0/0/4.4, 
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via spamchk service)


This mail 64731CBA97 is delivered from spamassassin as clean... and then 
something similar to this line OUGHT to appear:

... postfix/smtp[7307]: .... to=<prudek at bvx.cz>, 
relay=mail.rtv5.cz[212.96.165.43]:25

Notice the relay=mail.rtv5.cz[212.96.165.43]:25, this is the mailserver for 
prudek at bvx.cz. But this line DOES NOT appear. Neither do the other two lines 
for member1 at example.com and member2 at example.com (domain example.com is not 
the real one). So Postfix is NEVER instructed to deliver the emails to their 
real external destinations.

Instead some email is sent from t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz to the mailing list 
itself (t at z.docestiny.cz):

Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: D2FC5CBA73: 
from=<t-bounces at z.docestiny.cz>, size=2381, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Nov  8 17:41:11 milos-desktop spamd[8350]: prefork: child states: II
Nov  8 17:41:12 milos-desktop postfix/pipe[3751]: D2FC5CBA73: 
to=<t at z.docestiny.cz>, relay=mailman, delay=0.24, delays=0.01/0/0/0.23, 
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via mailman service)
Nov  8 17:41:12 milos-desktop postfix/qmgr[19655]: D2FC5CBA73: removed

and that is the end of all relevant communication.

What is eating those emails?

-- 
Milos Prudek

From prudek at bvx.cz  Sat Nov  8 22:16:23 2008
From: prudek at bvx.cz (Milos Prudek)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:16:23 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <4915EE5A.2090107@msapiro.net>
References: <PC1870200811080725390718e6a8a175@msapiro>
	<200811081826.40407.prudek@bvx.cz> <4915EE5A.2090107@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <200811082216.23868.prudek@bvx.cz>

Dne Saturday 08 of November 2008 20:54:02 Mark Sapiro napsal(a):
> This is almost certainly a problem with mailman-to-postfix.py or the way
> you have hooked it in to Postfix.

Thank you very much for your analysis. I double-checked the way I hooked 
postfix-to-mailman.py and it looks OK. I will try to engage some of the 
people who wrote postfix-to-mailman.py.

There is no useful information that mailman could tell me if I hacked its 
source code to report more to ../mailman/vette, is there?

-- 
Milos Prudek

From brad at shub-internet.org  Sun Nov  9 08:21:23 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 01:21:23 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is your mail getting there?
In-Reply-To: <23F428405CAC47D7A47B6E1357AA0B57@LaptopadfII>
References: <23F428405CAC47D7A47B6E1357AA0B57@LaptopadfII>
Message-ID: <49168F73.3090407@shub-internet.org>

Andrew Field > ZOL wrote:

> This may seem a little bit strange a question.  How do you know if your mail
> sent through Mailman is getting to all members of your particular list.

If you check your logs, that will tell you what has made it off your 
machine and has been accepted by the remote systems.  Beyond that, you 
can't be sure that any of those recipients have actually seen the 
message in question.  The only way you can be sure is if they respond to 
the message.

>                                                                           I
> suspect the problem might lay with the anti-spamming rules of the server on
> which I operate - they only allow so many messages to be sent through a mail
> box each hour.  What I don't know is how Mailman reacts to this, does it
> process according to the server's anti spam rules or does it just roll over
> and die, not completing the task?

It depends on how they implement their restrictions.  If they issue 5xx 
permanent errors, then Mailman will consider those recipients to have 
bounced.  If they issue 4xx temporary errors, then Mailman will retry 
those messages at a later time.

But if you're already running into limits being placed on you by your 
service provider, you're already in a pretty bad place.  I would 
encourage you to find another provider who does not place such limits on 
you, or who works with you to ensure that everything works the way it 
should.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Sun Nov  9 08:25:09 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 01:25:09 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Add or remove local accounts to a mailing list
 automatically
In-Reply-To: <240868.56862.qm@web111108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <240868.56862.qm@web111108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49169055.4090603@shub-internet.org>

George F wrote:

> How can I add the local accounts (i.e. the Linux system accounts) to
> that list? Can this list be updated automatically every time I add or
> remove a local account?

There aren't any standard tools for this sort of thing, but it shouldn't 
be too hard to create a cron job that extracts the list of currently 
existing users and synchronizes their subscription via the standard 
command-line tools (see FAQ 4.09 at <http://wiki.list.org/x/z4A9>).

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov  9 15:57:52 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 06:57:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <200811081035.41087.prudek@bvx.cz>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811090657520593f8575545@msapiro>

Milos Prudek wrote:
>
>This advice seems to be wrong. I set MTA=None in mm_cfg.py and no lines to 
>copy to /etc/aliases were printed.


The aliases are only printed for the default MTA = 'Manual' setting.


>This advice conflicts directly with advice in "postfix-to-mailman.py": "Does 
>not require the creation of _any_ aliases to connect lists to your mail 
>system."
>
>Who is right, the "4.78. Troubleshooting" or "postfix-to-mailman.py"?


postfix-to-mailman.py is a 3rd party module not distributed or
supported by the GNU Mailman project. Our FAQ mostly assumes a default
install from our source distribution.

If you use 3rd party modules/packages/installation instructions, you
have to accept that some of our support resources won't be directly
applicable.

Also, it appears that you may not be a member of this
(mailman-users at python.org) list as all your list posts appear to be
held for approval. If you're asking for help from a list, I think it's
a good idea to actually join the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 10 16:10:08 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:10:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <200811101118.41642.prudek@bvx.cz>
Message-ID: <PC187020081110071008089088ade242@msapiro>

Milos Prudek wrote:
>
>SUMMARY: With your advice (set the list for Full Personalization) my problem 
>is completely solved. The performance penalty associated with Full 
>Personalization is completely negligible for my purpose. Thank you very much, 
>Mark! 
>
>I will be happy to investigate this further if you want me to or if it would 
>help mailman development team in any way.


I think we have now isolated the problem to something in the MTA/MDA
chain outside of Mailman. Whether or not you investigate this further
is up to you. If you do find the cause, I would be interested just for
curiousity, but since I don't think it is a Mailman issue per se, I'm
not asking for any more.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From guilherme.funchal at gmail.com  Mon Nov 10 18:20:55 2008
From: guilherme.funchal at gmail.com (Guilherme Funchal)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:20:55 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DEFAULT_NEW_MEMBER_OPTIONS
Message-ID: <e368268e0811100920n70cfaf57u5ab6e8180749e7ca@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all!

What's values possibles to DEFAULT_NEW_MEMBER_OPTIONS in Defaults.py to
setting new members ?


One big hug

-- 
"H? homens que lutam um dia e s?o bons;
h? outros que lutam um ano e s?o melhores.
H? outros que lutam muitos anos e s?o muito bons.
Mas h? os que lutam toda a vida, e estes s?o imprescind?veis."

==============================
Guilherme Funchal da Silva .`.
LPI Level 2 Certification

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 10 20:06:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:06:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DEFAULT_NEW_MEMBER_OPTIONS
In-Reply-To: <e368268e0811100920n70cfaf57u5ab6e8180749e7ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811101106120046907978fa@msapiro>

Guilherme Funchal wrote:
>
>What's values possibles to DEFAULT_NEW_MEMBER_OPTIONS in Defaults.py to
>setting new members ?


DEFAULT_NEW_MEMBER_OPTIONS is an integer between 0 and 511, the bit
values  of which are described in Defaults.py under # Bitfield for
user options.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Mon Nov 10 19:13:28 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:13:28 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>
References: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <491879C8.7070902@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/10/08 12:07, Grant Taylor wrote:
> It appears as if Mailman is just not downloading any news postings 
> from the news server to be gatewayed in to the mailing list.

I just tested and can confirm that Mailman is posting messages from the 
mailing list to the news group.  So the problem appears to only be with 
sending messages to the mailing list from the news group.



Grant. . . .

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Mon Nov 10 19:07:25 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:07:25 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
Message-ID: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>

Hello...

I did a quick search of the mailing list archives and did not see any 
thing related to this, so I'm sorry if this is a double post.

I have been running Mailman 2.1.7 for almost two years with out a 
problem.  I have a mailing list named Sendmail which has the NNTP 
gateway configured to gate to the comp.mail.sendmail news group, which 
has been working fine for a long time.

About a month ago the gatewaying has stopped working.  I've been busy 
and seeing as how I'm the only user of the mailing list I have not made 
it a high priority.  Everything else about Mailman seems to be working 
just fine (I have a list of about 2,500 subscribers that is working just 
fine).

I've not had to really /work/ on Mailman before as it seemed to /just 
work/ and not need any thing.  So I'm at a bit of a loss as to where I 
need to look.  I don't see any thing in the news gateway log file.  Nor 
do I see any thing pertinent any where else that I've looked.  I can say 
for sure that Mailman is connecting to the news server and issuing the 
"mode reader" command and selecting the news group and being told how 
many messages are in the news group.  It appears as if Mailman is just 
not downloading any news postings from the news server to be gatewayed 
in to the mailing list.

Can any one give me any idea on where to start looking to trouble shoot 
this problem?



Grant. . . .

From pmoss4 at csc.com  Mon Nov 10 14:56:51 2008
From: pmoss4 at csc.com (Patricia A Moss)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:56:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List owner and email
Message-ID: <OFE8B4C2A0.358F1683-ON852574FD.004C300E-852574FD.004C9E06@csc.com>

I have an email issue and am not sure of what the real problem may be.
My company was recently acquired and our email addresses have changed. The 
hostname(s) for our serves have not yet changed.
My mailman-bounces and mailman-owner emails are now queuing up without 
being sent.  I think that it is due to the email address associated with 
the list(s) on my mailman server, but I am not sure. Or is it the fact 
that the email addresses have changed but not yet the hostnames?  Can 
someone help me sort this out?
I am running mailman version 2.1.5 on RedHat 4.0
Thank you,

PATI MOSS
System Engineer Sr. Professional
CSC

575 E. Swedesford Road, Suite 300, Wayne, PA 19464
GIS | p: 610.989.7105 | f: 610.989.7100 | pmoss4 at csc.com | www.csc.com

This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please 
delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in 
delivery. 
NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to 
any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement 
or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such 
purpose.

From prudek at bvx.cz  Mon Nov 10 11:18:41 2008
From: prudek at bvx.cz (Milos Prudek)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:18:41 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All messages discarded, no reason
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008110814013402031fdc51ed@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008110814013402031fdc51ed@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200811101118.41642.prudek@bvx.cz>


> You can get more information, but I think you'll see that this
> 'discarded' message is just a relay of the outbound message back to
> the list.

Right. I edited the source and indeed it was the outbound message incorrectly 
sent back to the list.

> However, in thinking about this, I have another idea. You send a

This fixed the problem. Once I set OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes and 
set the list for Full Personalization, all emails were correctly delivered.

> You could also test further by just using the Postfix 'sendmail'
> command to send a message to userb at ... which has a To: header of

I tried this with usera and userb (not in the z.docestiny.cz domain) and the 
mail was correctly delivered according to the envelope, not according to the 
To: header.

> usera at ... (not in the z.docestiny.cz domain) and see if that is
> properly delivered to userb and not usera. If not, it's probably not
> postfix-to-mailman.py related, but if that is properly delivered, try
> a To: t at z.docestiny.cz header in the message.

Using the sendmail command? OK I did. I put To: t at z.docestiny.cz header in the 
message and prudek at bvx.cz in the envelope. Again, the mail was sent to the 
envelope recipient.

SUMMARY: With your advice (set the list for Full Personalization) my problem 
is completely solved. The performance penalty associated with Full 
Personalization is completely negligible for my purpose. Thank you very much, 
Mark! 

I will be happy to investigate this further if you want me to or if it would 
help mailman development team in any way.

-- 
Milos Prudek

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Nov 11 21:20:38 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:20:38 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <491879C8.7070902@riverviewtech.net>
References: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>
	<491879C8.7070902@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <4919E916.9090604@shub-internet.org>

Grant Taylor wrote:

> I just tested and can confirm that Mailman is posting messages from the 
> mailing list to the news group.  So the problem appears to only be with 
> sending messages to the mailing list from the news group.

If it had been problems with posting, I would have pointed at your cron job. 
  Since it's problems with reading, that would imply some issue with the 
news reader interface you've got.

Check your Mailman logs and the logs on the news server you're connecting 
to.  You might also want to try firing up WireShark to see the actual 
incoming and outgoing packets to the news server.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 12 02:11:55 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:11:55 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
Message-ID: <491A2D5B.7010000@washburn.edu>

I am running:
Red Hat Ent. 5
Mailman 2.1.11
Postfix 2.3.3

When I send a message to a list it will successfully post to the 
archives but not to the recipients.  I can't find anything in any error 
logs and postfix is saying it successfully sent.  I am trying to look at 
the archives for any insight.  Any ideas would help.

-- 
Jewel


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Nov 12 02:14:17 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:14:17 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
In-Reply-To: <491A2D5B.7010000@washburn.edu>
References: <491A2D5B.7010000@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <491A2DE9.4020301@shub-internet.org>

Jewel wrote:

> When I send a message to a list it will successfully post to the 
> archives but not to the recipients.  I can't find anything in any error 
> logs and postfix is saying it successfully sent.  I am trying to look at 
> the archives for any insight.  Any ideas would help.

Did you search the FAQ Wiki for "troubleshooting"?  There's several steps 
listed there.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 12 04:22:09 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:22:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <4919E916.9090604@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <PC18702008111119220909539b110f02@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>Grant Taylor wrote:
>
>> I just tested and can confirm that Mailman is posting messages from the 
>> mailing list to the news group.  So the problem appears to only be with 
>> sending messages to the mailing list from the news group.
>
>If it had been problems with posting, I would have pointed at your cron job.


It is cron/gate_news that reads the news group and posts to the list so
that is what to check first. Is crond running? Does Mailman's crontab
run gate_news every 5 minutes?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Nov 12 06:44:17 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:44:17 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008111119220909539b110f02@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008111119220909539b110f02@msapiro>
Message-ID: <D8732FA7-C418-4C97-83AB-9A9FA22A26B3@shub-internet.org>

Huh. That's weird. I could have sworn that gate_news was only used to  
post messages to the newsgroup, and there was a different method for  
handling the newsreading.

Wild. Learn something new every day.

-- 
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 11, 2008, at 9:22 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Brad Knowles wrote:
>
>> Grant Taylor wrote:
>>
>>> I just tested and can confirm that Mailman is posting messages  
>>> from the
>>> mailing list to the news group.  So the problem appears to only be  
>>> with
>>> sending messages to the mailing list from the news group.
>>
>> If it had been problems with posting, I would have pointed at your  
>> cron job.
>
>
> It is cron/gate_news that reads the news group and posts to the list  
> so
> that is what to check first. Is crond running? Does Mailman's crontab
> run gate_news every 5 minutes?
>
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 12 15:29:54 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:29:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
In-Reply-To: <491A2DE9.4020301@shub-internet.org>
References: <491A2D5B.7010000@washburn.edu>
	<491A2DE9.4020301@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <491AE862.30706@washburn.edu>

I did find this in the smtp-failure logs:

low level smtp error: (111, 'Connection refused'), msgid: 
<49123211 at gmail.com>
delivery to jewel at gmail.com failed with code -1: (111, 'Connection refused')

Brad Knowles wrote:
> Jewel wrote:
>
>> When I send a message to a list it will successfully post to the 
>> archives but not to the recipients.  I can't find anything in any 
>> error logs and postfix is saying it successfully sent.  I am trying 
>> to look at the archives for any insight.  Any ideas would help.
>
> Did you search the FAQ Wiki for "troubleshooting"?  There's several 
> steps listed there.
>

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 12 15:21:49 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:21:49 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
In-Reply-To: <491A2DE9.4020301@shub-internet.org>
References: <491A2D5B.7010000@washburn.edu>
	<491A2DE9.4020301@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <491AE67D.4060606@washburn.edu>

I have looked but nothing is matching my scenario.  I see nothing in my 
maillog that helps shed any clue.  I did notice there are several .pck 
files in my qfiles/out directory.  I was able to send mail before while 
testing the machine.  The only thing I changed was I migrated all the 
lists and archives over, changed the IP and hostname since it's 
replacing an older machine. 

Brad Knowles wrote:
> Jewel wrote:
>
>> When I send a message to a list it will successfully post to the 
>> archives but not to the recipients.  I can't find anything in any 
>> error logs and postfix is saying it successfully sent.  I am trying 
>> to look at the archives for any insight.  Any ideas would help.
>
> Did you search the FAQ Wiki for "troubleshooting"?  There's several 
> steps listed there.
>

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 12 16:27:28 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:27:28 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
In-Reply-To: <491AE862.30706@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008111207272804375581da51@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>I did find this in the smtp-failure logs:
>
>low level smtp error: (111, 'Connection refused'), msgid: 
><49123211 at gmail.com>
>delivery to jewel at gmail.com failed with code -1: (111, 'Connection refused')

See <http://wiki.list.org/x/-IA9> for this error, although, that won't
explain several .pck files in qfiles/out. That sounds like
OutgoingRunner isn't running or is 'stuck'. See item 5.b. at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 12 17:56:32 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:56:32 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008111207272804375581da51@msapiro>
References: <491AE862.30706@washburn.edu>
	<PC18702008111207272804375581da51@msapiro>
Message-ID: <f9e68b2b1d55f.1d55ff9e68b2b@washburn.edu>

my /etc/hosts does have 127.0.0.1 listed.  It's also world readable.  I
am using postfix and have confirmed I can telnet from another pc just
fine to port 25.  It was delivering for a short while earlier but then
it stopped.  I have about 100 lists and right now nothing it getting
delivered. I have postfix using a rely which was working earlier. Here
is also what's in my mm_cfg.py file:

DEFAULT_HOST_NAME='lists.washlaw.edu'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST='lists.washlaw.edu'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.washlaw.edu'
IMAGE_LOGOS=='/icons/'
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
 

Jewel

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:56 am
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
To: Jewel <jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>, Brad Knowles
<brad at shub-internet.org>
Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>


> Jewel wrote:
> 
> >I did find this in the smtp-failure logs:
> >
> >low level smtp error: (111, 'Connection refused'), msgid: 
> ><49123211 at gmail.com>
> >delivery to jewel at gmail.com failed with code -1: (111, 'Connection 
> refused')
> See <http://wiki.list.org/x/-IA9> for this error, although, that won't
> explain several .pck files in qfiles/out. That sounds like
> OutgoingRunner isn't running or is 'stuck'. See item 5.b. at
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> 

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 12 17:58:35 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:58:35 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
In-Reply-To: <f9e68b2b1d55f.1d55ff9e68b2b@washburn.edu>
References: <491AE862.30706@washburn.edu>
	<PC18702008111207272804375581da51@msapiro>
	<f9e68b2b1d55f.1d55ff9e68b2b@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <f9e4c3271f21b.1f21bf9e4c327@washburn.edu>

I also checked to confirm everything is running, cron, qrunner, python,
postfix.  

Jewel 
----- Original Message -----
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu
Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:57 am
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
To: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>

> my /etc/hosts does have 127.0.0.1 listed.  It's also world 
> readable.  I
> am using postfix and have confirmed I can telnet from another pc just
> fine to port 25.  It was delivering for a short while earlier but then
> it stopped.  I have about 100 lists and right now nothing it getting
> delivered. I have postfix using a rely which was working earlier. Here
> is also what's in my mm_cfg.py file:
> 
> DEFAULT_HOST_NAME='lists.washlaw.edu'
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST='lists.washlaw.edu'
> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.washlaw.edu'
> IMAGE_LOGOS=='/icons/'
> add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
> SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
> 
> 
> Jewel
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:56 am
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
> To: Jewel <jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>, Brad Knowles
> <brad at shub-internet.org>
> Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>
> 
> 
> > Jewel wrote:
> > 
> > >I did find this in the smtp-failure logs:
> > >
> > >low level smtp error: (111, 'Connection refused'), msgid: 
> > ><49123211 at gmail.com>
> > >delivery to jewel at gmail.com failed with code -1: (111, 
> 'Connection 
> > refused')
> > See <http://wiki.list.org/x/-IA9> for this error, although, that 
> won't> explain several .pck files in qfiles/out. That sounds like
> > OutgoingRunner isn't running or is 'stuck'. See item 5.b. at
> > <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> > San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. 
> Dylan> 
> > 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/Unsubscribe: 
>
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jewel.brueggeman-makda%40washburn.edu
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 12 18:09:18 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:09:18 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
In-Reply-To: <f9e4c3271f21b.1f21bf9e4c327@washburn.edu>
References: <491AE862.30706@washburn.edu>
	<PC18702008111207272804375581da51@msapiro>
	<f9e68b2b1d55f.1d55ff9e68b2b@washburn.edu>
	<f9e4c3271f21b.1f21bf9e4c327@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <f9a4ab5d192ae.192aef9a4ab5d@washburn.edu>

I added: self.__conn.set_debuglevel(1)   
to my SMTPDirect.py
and here is part of the error log in Mailman:

Nov 12 10:36:41 2008 (2714) Skipping and preserving unparseable message:
1226507289.9204841+9b7cd135a8b3a93bff231fb97f3e66795e638087            
               Nov 12 10:36:41 2008 (2574) Failed to unlink/preserve
backup file:
/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1226507289.9204841+9b7cd135a8b3a93bff231fb97f3e66795e638087.bakNov
12 10:36:42 2008 (2677) Failed to unlink/preserve backup file:
/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1226504590.8292949+21ecf2e35ae08d4038720c831cab6651a52d69ea.bakNov
12 10:36:42 2008 (2677) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 2] No such
file or directory:
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1226507289.9204841+9b7cd135a8b3a93bff231fb97f3e66795e638087.pck'
                                                    Nov 12 10:36:42 2008
(2677) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 100, in _oneloop
    msg, msgdata = self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 154, in
dequeue
    fp = open(filename)
IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1226507289.9204841+9b7cd135a8b3a93bff231fb97f3e66795e638087.pck'

Jewel

----- Original Message -----
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu
Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:59 am
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>

> I also checked to confirm everything is running, cron, qrunner, 
> python,postfix.  
> 
> Jewel 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu
> Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:57 am
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients
> To: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>
> 
> > my /etc/hosts does have 127.0.0.1 listed.  It's also world 
> > readable.  I
> > am using postfix and have confirmed I can telnet from another pc 
> just> fine to port 25.  It was delivering for a short while earlier 
> but then
> > it stopped.  I have about 100 lists and right now nothing it getting
> > delivered. I have postfix using a rely which was working earlier. 
> Here> is also what's in my mm_cfg.py file:
> > 
> > DEFAULT_HOST_NAME='lists.washlaw.edu'
> > DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST='lists.washlaw.edu'
> > DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.washlaw.edu'
> > IMAGE_LOGOS=='/icons/'
> > add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
> > SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
> > 
> > 
> > Jewel
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> > Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:56 am
> > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to 
> recipients> To: Jewel <jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>, Brad 
> Knowles> <brad at shub-internet.org>
> > Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>
> > 
> > 
> > > Jewel wrote:
> > > 
> > > >I did find this in the smtp-failure logs:
> > > >
> > > >low level smtp error: (111, 'Connection refused'), msgid: 
> > > ><49123211 at gmail.com>
> > > >delivery to jewel at gmail.com failed with code -1: (111, 
> > 'Connection 
> > > refused')
> > > See <http://wiki.list.org/x/-IA9> for this error, although, 
> that 
> > won't> explain several .pck files in qfiles/out. That sounds like
> > > OutgoingRunner isn't running or is 'stuck'. See item 5.b. at
> > > <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> > > San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - 
> B. 
> > Dylan> 
> > > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > Mailman-Users mailing list
> > Mailman-Users at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> > users%40python.org/Unsubscribe: 
> >
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/jewel.brueggeman-makda%40washburn.edu
> > 
> > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> > 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/Unsubscribe: 
>
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jewel.brueggeman-makda%40washburn.edu
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 

From scott at jda-networks.com  Wed Nov 12 18:13:23 2008
From: scott at jda-networks.com (Scott Race)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:13:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] VirtualDirectories and /var/www setup
Message-ID: <5FDF8F237C740D4B8C3A618DD2668E3202EA30A6@server.jda.local>

Hello,

Using RHLE 4 with Apache and Mailman on multiple domains on the same
server.  The two domains I've setup are working fine.  The documentation
on the Mailman site does not go into detail on how to setup Apache for
Mailman, so I wanted to make sure I have setup my installation
correctly.  

 

I inherited this setup, and it all seems to work, though I'm not quite
sure how.  I have VirtualDirectory directives in myhttpd.conf file for
each mailman domain, though there's no /mailman directory there.  As I
look, seemes the cgi-bin directory in /usr/lib/mailman takes care of
that.


How does Apache know to route domain traffic to
www.mydomain.com/mailman/create to the appropriate place? I'm mostly
wondering this for a third domain setup, will I need a VirtualDirectory
for the site, even if there's nothing in the root of the site?  I'm
guessing I will, but just wanted to verify the setup.   

 

Also wondering if domains on my server that are not hosting mailmain
sites will also by default have /mailman/create directories, since it
seems like it's applying it to all domains.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Scott 

 


From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Tue Nov 11 21:49:02 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:49:02 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <4919E916.9090604@shub-internet.org>
References: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>	<491879C8.7070902@riverviewtech.net>
	<4919E916.9090604@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <4919EFBE.3090103@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/11/08 14:20, Brad Knowles wrote:
> If it had been problems with posting, I would have pointed at your cron 
> job.  Since it's problems with reading, that would imply some issue with 
> the news reader interface you've got.

What do you mean by "... news reader interface ..."?  Are you saying 
that the problem is with the news (NNTP) client that I'm using?  If so, 
I can say for sure that is not the case.  I have verified that the 
message(s) that I post to the mailing list are indeed being gatewayed to 
the news server as my posts appear in the news group like they should on 
other Usenet news (NNTP) servers.  I can also verify that the news 
server that Mailman posted to (and checks) has has my test message.  As 
such I do not believe the problem to be related to news (NNTP) but 
rather something with acting as a news (NNTP) client.

> Check your Mailman logs and the logs on the news server you're 
> connecting to.  You might also want to try firing up WireShark to see 
> the actual incoming and outgoing packets to the news server.

I did check the Mailman logs.  gate_news.cron.txt is empty, nor is there 
any output if I run gate_news by hand (as the user that owns Mailman). 
I did not see any thing in the other Mailman or system logs.  Do you 
have something I should be looking and / or greping for?

As far as Wireshark goes, I've already run TCPDump on the connection. 
That's how I can be sure that Mailman is connecting to the news server 
and issuing the "mode reader" command, selecting the news group, and 
getting information back from the news server.

Any other ideas?

I feel like this has to do with Mailman as an news (NNTP) client not 
realizing that it needs to download more messages (message counters off 
/ corrupted / something) or it not being able to download messages for 
some reason.

I can say that I have received an error (that for some reason did not 
show up in logs) from gate_news:

Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 284, in ?
     main()
   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 266, in main
     clearcache()
   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 121, in clearcache
     conn.quit()
   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 564, in quit
     resp = self.shortcmd('QUIT')
   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 260, in shortcmd
     return self.getresp()
   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 215, in getresp
     resp = self.getline()
   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 207, in getline
     if not line: raise EOFError
EOFError

Unfortunately this does not mean much to me.  Will someone with more 
Mailman-fu than I translate it?



Grant. . . .

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Tue Nov 11 22:20:17 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:20:17 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List owner and email
In-Reply-To: <OFE8B4C2A0.358F1683-ON852574FD.004C300E-852574FD.004C9E06@csc.com>
References: <OFE8B4C2A0.358F1683-ON852574FD.004C300E-852574FD.004C9E06@csc.com>
Message-ID: <4919F711.3000403@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/10/08 07:56, Patricia A Moss wrote:
> I have an email issue and am not sure of what the real problem may 
> be.  My company was recently acquired and our email addresses have 
> changed. The hostname(s) for our serves have not yet changed.

I would suggest that you make sure email from the system its self is 
functioning before trying to diagnose Mailman specific issues.  (Unless 
problems are not presenting from any thing other than Mailman.)

Can you type the following command and get the email where you would 
expect to?

    echo "This is a test..." | mail -s "Test email..." user at somewhere.tld

If it does work, what email address does the message come from?

> My mailman-bounces and mailman-owner emails are now queuing up 
> without being sent.  I think that it is due to the email address 
> associated with the list(s) on my mailman server, but I am not sure. 
> Or is it the fact that the email addresses have changed but not yet 
> the hostnames?  Can someone help me sort this out?

Are /all/ mailman-bounces and mailman-owner emails being queued or just 
part of them?  Knowing that will help determine if it is a problem with 
filtering (call backs verifying sending email addresses).

Also, are you using SPF or Domain-Keys?  If they are set up for the old 
names and you are now using new names which don't take your mail list 
server in to account, things will likely break in some weird way.  In 
fact, you could even be publishing records that you are your self 
breaking by sending email from an unauthorized system under the new 
(other companies) name.

> I am running mailman version 2.1.5 on RedHat 4.0

What are you running as your email server?

> Thank you,

Hopefully I've at least given you some directions to look in.



Grant. . . .

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Wed Nov 12 04:51:54 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:51:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008111119220909539b110f02@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008111119220909539b110f02@msapiro>
Message-ID: <491A52DA.2080507@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/11/2008 9:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> It is cron/gate_news that reads the news group and posts to the list 
> so that is what to check first. Is crond running? Does Mailman's 
> crontab run gate_news every 5 minutes?

Yes, both cron (its self) and gate_news (as a cron job) are both 
running.  Also, I have completely taken cron / gate_news out of the mix 
by running gate_news by hand as root (who gate_news has been working 
fine as for months) and by the user that owns Mailman.  Yes the 
gate_news gateway is run every five minutes.



Grant. . . .


From spackenwasser at gmx.de  Wed Nov 12 15:42:08 2008
From: spackenwasser at gmx.de (spackenwasser at gmx.de)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:42:08 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailmanctl doenst start qrunners
Message-ID: <20081112144208.97240@gmx.net>

Hi, 
i got a problem with my fresh mailman installation:

SUSE Linux Enterprise Server 10.2 (x86_64)
Python 2.4.2
Mailman Version: 2.1.7


When invoking "bin/mailmanctl -s start" it doesnt start any of the qrunner processes.
Infact, it seems to do nothing more then printing "Starting Mailman's qrunner-Masterprocess." 

Im a python newbie but as far as i can see the path in: 

 os.execl(mm_cfg.PYTHON, mm_cfg.PYTHON, exe, rswitch, '-s')

are OK, i can create a debug message for every runner with the correct path right before this line


I can start all the runnners manually, eg

/usr/bin/python  bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s

runs just fine and does what it has to do untill i ctrl+c it.

Im quit sure this is a version problem or a Python libary missing. But i cant find any error logs hinting.


-- 
"Feel free" - 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat ...
Jetzt GMX TopMail testen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Nov 13 02:54:34 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:54:34 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <4919EFBE.3090103@riverviewtech.net>
References: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>	<491879C8.7070902@riverviewtech.net>	<4919E916.9090604@shub-internet.org>
	<4919EFBE.3090103@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <491B88DA.9060501@shub-internet.org>

Grant Taylor wrote:

> What do you mean by "... news reader interface ..."?  Are you saying 
> that the problem is with the news (NNTP) client that I'm using?  If so, 
> I can say for sure that is not the case.

Internally, Mailman acts as an NNTP client to read and post the news, so 
this is where I would be looking for errors and differences.

I had started a program a while back to allow Mailman to act as an NNTP 
server for posting news (avoiding the NNTP client method), but that never 
got anywhere.

> I did check the Mailman logs.  gate_news.cron.txt is empty, nor is there 
> any output if I run gate_news by hand (as the user that owns Mailman). I 
> did not see any thing in the other Mailman or system logs.  Do you have 
> something I should be looking and / or greping for?

There should be logs in /usr/local/mailman/logs that are relevant to these 
messages, especially in the log file named "usenet".

> I feel like this has to do with Mailman as an news (NNTP) client not 
> realizing that it needs to download more messages (message counters off 
> / corrupted / something) or it not being able to download messages for 
> some reason.

That seems plausible.

> I can say that I have received an error (that for some reason did not 
> show up in logs) from gate_news:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 284, in ?
>     main()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 266, in main
>     clearcache()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 121, in clearcache
>     conn.quit()
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 564, in quit
>     resp = self.shortcmd('QUIT')
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 260, in shortcmd
>     return self.getresp()
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 215, in getresp
>     resp = self.getline()
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 207, in getline
>     if not line: raise EOFError
> EOFError

Hmm.  This may be unrelated, but what version of Mailman are you running? 
Have you looked at updating the version of Python you've got installed?  The 
latest 2.4.x version should work well with the latest version of Mailman 
(2.1.11), and I know there are some significant changes in the underlying 
library routines.

It is possible that you may be running into bugs that have already been quashed.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 13 08:37:31 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:37:31 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <491B88DA.9060501@shub-internet.org>
References: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>	<491879C8.7070902@riverviewtech.net>	<4919E916.9090604@shub-internet.org>	<4919EFBE.3090103@riverviewtech.net>
	<491B88DA.9060501@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <491BD93B.8040507@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/12/2008 7:54 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> Internally, Mailman acts as an NNTP client to read and post the news, so 
> this is where I would be looking for errors and differences.

*nod*

Any suggestions on how a non Python programmer might start looking for 
said possible errors?

> I had started a program a while back to allow Mailman to act as an NNTP 
> server for posting news (avoiding the NNTP client method), but that 
> never got anywhere.

Interesting.

Were you trying to act as an NNTP server so that another NNTP server 
could ""feed you articles, or were you trying to act as an NNTP server 
so that you could use server to server communications rather than client 
to server communications?

> There should be logs in /usr/local/mailman/logs that are relevant to 
> these messages, especially in the log file named "usenet".

Hum.  I don't have a log file named "usenet".  Below are the log files 
that I do have.

    bounce
    error
    fromusenet
    gate_news.cron.txt
    post
    qrunner
    smtp
    subscribe

> That seems plausible.

Will you please give me a pointer in the direction to look at where 
Mailman stores the history of what articles it has seen so I can explore 
this further?

> Hmm.  This may be unrelated, but what version of Mailman are you 
> running? Have you looked at updating the version of Python you've got 
> installed?  The latest 2.4.x version should work well with the latest 
> version of Mailman (2.1.11), and I know there are some significant 
> changes in the underlying library routines.

Sorry.  I thought that I had posted the version.  I am (and have 
successfully been) running Mailman 2.1.7, and I am running Python 2.3.4 
(nice numerical progression of numbers there).

I'm not doubting that upgrading both Mailman and Python might solve the 
problem, but that is (in my opinion) a rather drastic step to resolve 
something that was working.  I would be more inclined to do so if I was 
doing a new install and not able to get things to work.  But, if it 
comes down to that and I can save all my current information (archives, 
user databases, etc, I'm willing to entertain that option down the road.

> It is possible that you may be running into bugs that have already been 
> quashed.

Like bugs having to do with the history getting full or keeping track of 
too many seen messages?

Is there a place that I can review change logs to see what bugs might 
have been corrected in subsequent versions of Mailman and / or Python?



Grant. . . .

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Nov 13 09:56:03 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:56:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <491BD93B.8040507@riverviewtech.net>
References: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>	<491879C8.7070902@riverviewtech.net>	<4919E916.9090604@shub-internet.org>	<4919EFBE.3090103@riverviewtech.net>	<491B88DA.9060501@shub-internet.org>
	<491BD93B.8040507@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <491BEBA3.5080907@shub-internet.org>

Grant Taylor wrote:

> Any suggestions on how a non Python programmer might start looking for 
> said possible errors?

It sounds like you've already done a lot of the right stuff initially -- 
tracing packets with tcpdump, etc....

Beyond that, you kind of just have to get stuck into the Python.

> Were you trying to act as an NNTP server so that another NNTP server 
> could ""feed you articles, or were you trying to act as an NNTP server 
> so that you could use server to server communications rather than client 
> to server communications?

I was going for bi-directionality.

Using the server interface to accept articles gives you a much easier 
and more obvious way to handle re-posts and mail/news/mail loops, using 
the exact same mechanisms that real news servers use.  With this kind of 
mechanism, you could even use Mailman to act as a robo-moderator for a 
newsgroup, in addition to acting as the official gateway.

Using the server interface to send articles allows you to avoid some 
extra labels in the path, and gives you more control over the other 
headers, etc....


But no one else was interested, and I didn't have the skills necessary 
to do the code myself.  So, the simpler newsreader interface was kept.

> Hum.  I don't have a log file named "usenet".  Below are the log files 
> that I do have.

Sorry, I meant "fromusenet".  It's been a while since I hacked on the 
mmdsr script, and I had forgotten what the proper name was for that 
particular log.

Unfortunately, you're not having problems in the incoming direction, are 
you?

>    bounce
>    error
>    fromusenet
>    gate_news.cron.txt
>    post
>    qrunner
>    smtp
>    subscribe

I would be curious to know if you're seeing anything related in the 
error, post, or queuerunner logs.

> Will you please give me a pointer in the direction to look at where 
> Mailman stores the history of what articles it has seen so I can explore 
> this further?

The Python code in /usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news is actually pretty 
readable.  A quick scan confirms that the watermark is encoded in the 
list configuration pickle, but without knowing more about the data 
structures in the list configuration pickles, I couldn't tell you 
anything more than that.

> Sorry.  I thought that I had posted the version.  I am (and have 
> successfully been) running Mailman 2.1.7, and I am running Python 2.3.4 
> (nice numerical progression of numbers there).

Note that there have been some significant security fixes as well as a 
number of other changes since 2.1.7.  See the latest version of the 
changes at <http://tinyurl.com/6mprx3>.

> I'm not doubting that upgrading both Mailman and Python might solve the 
> problem, but that is (in my opinion) a rather drastic step to resolve 
> something that was working.

Agreed.

>                              I would be more inclined to do so if I was 
> doing a new install and not able to get things to work.  But, if it 
> comes down to that and I can save all my current information (archives, 
> user databases, etc, I'm willing to entertain that option down the road.

Upgrading is usually pretty painless.  I've done it several times for 
the python.org site where all the official mailman-* mailing lists are 
hosted, as well as all of the other official Python-related mailing lists.

>> It is possible that you may be running into bugs that have already 
>> been quashed.
> 
> Like bugs having to do with the history getting full or keeping track of 
> too many seen messages?

In looking at the list of changes, I did see two or three mentions of 
things being fixed related to USENET newsgroups and gatewaying, but I 
don't know the exact details of what all was fixed, and what other 
things might potentially have been silently fixed while in the process 
of fixing other things.

> Is there a place that I can review change logs to see what bugs might 
> have been corrected in subsequent versions of Mailman and / or Python?

 From what I can tell, everything is in the launchpad tracker.

The path from <https://launchpad.net/mailman> is not that clear, but if 
you follow that TinyURL I posted above, that will take you straight to 
the as-of-now current version of the "NEWS" file that should be updated 
with every major change to the code, and you should be able to follow 
the links up or down from there to the actual code in question.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 13 17:03:35 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:03:35 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List owner and email
In-Reply-To: <OFE8B4C2A0.358F1683-ON852574FD.004C300E-852574FD.004C9E06@csc.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008111308033506095549bd04@msapiro>

Patricia A Moss wrote:

>My mailman-bounces and mailman-owner emails are now queuing up without 
>being sent.


Grant Taylor has responded with good suggestions. Also, see the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 13 17:58:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:58:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] VirtualDirectories and /var/www setup
In-Reply-To: <5FDF8F237C740D4B8C3A618DD2668E3202EA30A6@server.jda.local>
Message-ID: <PC187020081113085812003101a8edeb@msapiro>

Scott Race wrote:
>
>How does Apache know to route domain traffic to
>www.mydomain.com/mailman/create to the appropriate place? I'm mostly
>wondering this for a third domain setup, will I need a VirtualDirectory
>for the site, even if there's nothing in the root of the site?  I'm
>guessing I will, but just wanted to verify the setup.   
>
> 
>
>Also wondering if domains on my server that are not hosting mailmain
>sites will also by default have /mailman/create directories, since it
>seems like it's applying it to all domains.


The directive

ScriptAlias /mailman/ "/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/"

(or whatever the actual path is in your case) establishes the link
between URLs of the form http://www.example.com/mailman/xxx/...
and the CGI wrapper /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/xxx which is invoked to
procees the request for the URL.

You can put this directive in http.conf outsite of any <VirtualHost>
blocks, and it will apply to all URLs of the above form that address
the server.

Alternatively, you can put it inside <VirtualHost> blocks an it will
only apply to those virtual hosts that contain it.

There is no "mailman/create" directory per se, there is only the one
/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/ directory with the several wrappers such
as /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/create. Whether or not this is invoked
for a particular host URL depends on where the ScriptAlias
directive(s) is/are.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 13 18:53:01 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:53:01 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <4919EFBE.3090103@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <PC18702008111309530105936b669352@msapiro>

Grant Taylor wrote:
>
>I can say that I have received an error (that for some reason did not 
>show up in logs) from gate_news:
>
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 284, in ?
>     main()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 266, in main
>     clearcache()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 121, in clearcache
>     conn.quit()
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 564, in quit
>     resp = self.shortcmd('QUIT')
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 260, in shortcmd
>     return self.getresp()
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 215, in getresp
>     resp = self.getline()
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/nntplib.py", line 207, in getline
>     if not line: raise EOFError
>EOFError
>
>Unfortunately this does not mean much to me.  Will someone with more 
>Mailman-fu than I translate it?


You may have never seen this because it may be a one-time transient
error. Or, if it did show up from cron, it would probably be emailed
as output from the cron, which would be sent to 'mailman' unless you
have a MAILTO in the crontab, and depending on how your 'mailman' site
list is set up, you may never see it.

In any case, the above error says gate_news is closing the connection
to the news server, and the underlying Python nntplib received no
response to the QUIT command it sent to the server.

As far as your actual problem is concerned, since gate_news is being
run, I am guessing that for some reason, the messages were renumbered
on the news server and the current message numbers are all less than
the list's usenet_watermark. If this is the case, you have a couple of
choices.

You can do a mass_catchup from the list's Mail<->News gateways page. If
the watermark is the issue, this will allow news->mail to begin again,
but previously posted news that hasn't been gated will be lost.

To avoid losing messages, you would need to access the news server and
determine the current number of the last gated message and use
Mailman's bin/withlist or bin/config_list to set the list's
usenet_watermark to that value.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 13 18:58:43 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:58:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailmanctl doenst start qrunners
In-Reply-To: <20081112144208.97240@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <PC18702008111309584304688a6494ff@msapiro>

spackenwasser at gmx.de wrote:
>
>When invoking "bin/mailmanctl -s start" it doesnt start any of the qrunner processes.
>Infact, it seems to do nothing more then printing "Starting Mailman's qrunner-Masterprocess." 
>
>Im a python newbie but as far as i can see the path in: 
>
> os.execl(mm_cfg.PYTHON, mm_cfg.PYTHON, exe, rswitch, '-s')
>
>are OK, i can create a debug message for every runner with the correct path right before this line
>
>
>I can start all the runnners manually, eg
>
>/usr/bin/python  bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
>
>runs just fine and does what it has to do untill i ctrl+c it.
>
>Im quit sure this is a version problem or a Python libary missing. But i cant find any error logs hinting.


Look in Mailman's 'qrunner' and 'error' logs. In a default installation
from source, these are in /usr/local/mailman/logs/.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 13 19:10:06 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:10:06 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <491BEBA3.5080907@shub-internet.org>
References: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>	<491879C8.7070902@riverviewtech.net>	<4919E916.9090604@shub-internet.org>	<4919EFBE.3090103@riverviewtech.net>	<491B88DA.9060501@shub-internet.org>	<491BD93B.8040507@riverviewtech.net>
	<491BEBA3.5080907@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <491C6D7E.8030404@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/13/08 02:56, Brad Knowles wrote:
> It sounds like you've already done a lot of the right stuff initially -- 
> tracing packets with tcpdump, etc....
> 
> Beyond that, you kind of just have to get stuck into the Python.

'k

> I was going for bi-directionality.
> 
> Using the server interface to accept articles gives you a much easier 
> and more obvious way to handle re-posts and mail/news/mail loops, using 
> the exact same mechanisms that real news servers use.  With this kind of 
> mechanism, you could even use Mailman to act as a robo-moderator for a 
> newsgroup, in addition to acting as the official gateway.
> 
> Using the server interface to send articles allows you to avoid some 
> extra labels in the path, and gives you more control over the other 
> headers, etc....

*nod*

> But no one else was interested, and I didn't have the skills necessary 
> to do the code myself.  So, the simpler newsreader interface was kept.

Sad but *nod*.

Another trick you could do is to do a small install of INN (or the 
likes) with a configured feed and then configure INN its self (let's see 
if I get this wording right) to use batched or program feeds in to 
Mailman.  This way you could let INN handle the duplication its self. 
You could also have Mailman point back to INN as its out going NNTP 
server and let it do the posting to upstream servers.  Just a thought.

> Sorry, I meant "fromusenet".  It's been a while since I hacked on the 
> mmdsr script, and I had forgotten what the proper name was for that 
> particular log.

*nod*

Below are the top three and bottom three lines in the fromusenet log file.

    Oct 15 02:20:03 2008 (3687) comp.mail.sendmail: [20872..42079]
    Oct 15 02:20:04 2008 (3687) nothing new for list comp.mail.sendmail
    Oct 15 02:20:04 2008 (3687) comp.mail.sendmail watermark: 339203
    ...
    Nov 13 12:00:02 2008 (1003) comp.mail.sendmail: [20872..42368]
    Nov 13 12:00:02 2008 (1003) nothing new for list comp.mail.sendmail
    Nov 13 12:00:02 2008 (1003) comp.mail.sendmail watermark: 339203

Greping through the log file, it looks like the "watermark" has not 
changed.  In fact the only thing that I see that has changed is the 
second number (in the square brackets) on the first like of each log entry.

> Unfortunately, you're not having problems in the incoming direction, are 
> you?

Actually, yes.  Incoming (NNTP -> SMTP) is the problem.  Outgoing (SMTP 
-> NNTP) is working just fine.  Or at least it was when I verified it 
the other day.

> I would be curious to know if you're seeing anything related in the 
> error, post, or queuerunner logs.

The queuerunner log file is 29 lines long, (I'll post them if you want 
me to.)  The lines look like they are from when I last (re)started 
Mailman, "... <bla service> qrunner started." type lines.  There are 
some lines that I don't know if they if they are pertinent or not. 
However I think these lines are from where I stopped Mailman.

    Nov 04 10:36:33 2008 (14630) Master watcher caught SIGTERM.  Exiting.
    Nov 04 10:36:37 2008 (14630) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
    (pid: 14640, sig: None, sts: 15, class: MaildirRunner, slice: 1/1)
    Nov 04 10:36:37 2008 (14630) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
    (pid: 14636, sig: None, sts: 15, class: NewsRunner, slice: 1/1)
    Nov 04 10:36:40 2008 (14630) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
    (pid: 14639, sig: None, sts: 15, class: RetryRunner, slice: 1/1)
    Nov 04 10:36:41 2008 (14630) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
    ...

> The Python code in /usr/local/mailman/cron/gate_news is actually pretty 
> readable.  A quick scan confirms that the watermark is encoded in the 
> list configuration pickle, but without knowing more about the data 
> structures in the list configuration pickles, I couldn't tell you 
> anything more than that.

Understood.  If you will tell me what (and possibly how to get) you want 
and I'll get it for you.

> Note that there have been some significant security fixes as well as a 
> number of other changes since 2.1.7.  See the latest version of the 
> changes at <http://tinyurl.com/6mprx3>.

I'll take a look.

> Upgrading is usually pretty painless.  I've done it several times for 
> the python.org site where all the official mailman-* mailing lists are 
> hosted, as well as all of the other official Python-related mailing lists.

*nod*

> In looking at the list of changes, I did see two or three mentions of 
> things being fixed related to USENET newsgroups and gatewaying, but I 
> don't know the exact details of what all was fixed, and what other 
> things might potentially have been silently fixed while in the process 
> of fixing other things.

*nod*

>  From what I can tell, everything is in the launchpad tracker.
> 
> The path from <https://launchpad.net/mailman> is not that clear, but if 
> you follow that TinyURL I posted above, that will take you straight to 
> the as-of-now current version of the "NEWS" file that should be updated 
> with every major change to the code, and you should be able to follow 
> the links up or down from there to the actual code in question.

Ok.  I'll take a look and let you know.

Thank you for all your effort.



Grant. . . .

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 13 19:29:06 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:29:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <491C6D7E.8030404@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <PC18702008111310290602037a573b51@msapiro>

Grant Taylor wrote:
>
>Below are the top three and bottom three lines in the fromusenet log file.
>
>    Oct 15 02:20:03 2008 (3687) comp.mail.sendmail: [20872..42079]
>    Oct 15 02:20:04 2008 (3687) nothing new for list comp.mail.sendmail
>    Oct 15 02:20:04 2008 (3687) comp.mail.sendmail watermark: 339203
>    ...
>    Nov 13 12:00:02 2008 (1003) comp.mail.sendmail: [20872..42368]
>    Nov 13 12:00:02 2008 (1003) nothing new for list comp.mail.sendmail
>    Nov 13 12:00:02 2008 (1003) comp.mail.sendmail watermark: 339203


See my previous reply at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-November/063980.html>.

Your problem is the messages have been renumbered on the news server
and the most recent message on the server is now 42368, but the list's
wartermark is 339203 or almost 300000 messages higher.

You need to reset the list's watermark as I discuss in the above reply.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Nov 13 19:33:02 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:33:02 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <491C6D7E.8030404@riverviewtech.net>
References: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>	<491879C8.7070902@riverviewtech.net>	<4919E916.9090604@shub-internet.org>	<4919EFBE.3090103@riverviewtech.net>	<491B88DA.9060501@shub-internet.org>	<491BD93B.8040507@riverviewtech.net>	<491BEBA3.5080907@shub-internet.org>
	<491C6D7E.8030404@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <491C72DE.1080805@shub-internet.org>

Grant Taylor wrote:

> Below are the top three and bottom three lines in the fromusenet log file.
> 
>    Oct 15 02:20:03 2008 (3687) comp.mail.sendmail: [20872..42079]
>    Oct 15 02:20:04 2008 (3687) nothing new for list comp.mail.sendmail
>    Oct 15 02:20:04 2008 (3687) comp.mail.sendmail watermark: 339203
>    ...
>    Nov 13 12:00:02 2008 (1003) comp.mail.sendmail: [20872..42368]
>    Nov 13 12:00:02 2008 (1003) nothing new for list comp.mail.sendmail
>    Nov 13 12:00:02 2008 (1003) comp.mail.sendmail watermark: 339203
> 
> Greping through the log file, it looks like the "watermark" has not 
> changed.  In fact the only thing that I see that has changed is the 
> second number (in the square brackets) on the first like of each log entry.

There's your problem.  Somehow your watermark got set ridiculously high, or 
the news server decided to re-number all their articles into a much lower 
range, and from now until the end of eternity, you're not going to find any 
"new" articles to pull out of the newsgroup and post to the list.

You're going to need to reset that watermark, if you want to get things 
working again.


You would need to talk to your news server administrator to see if they did 
a re-numbering, or silently switched you to be pointed at a different news 
server with a different article numbering, or what.

This is one of those cases where it helps to be the administrator of both 
sets of systems, so that you know what's going on under the hood on both 
ends of the connection, and you have full control over what changes are or 
are not made.


BTW, if you were using a server-style feed mechanism, there wouldn't be a 
watermark issue.

You would instead track incoming messages by their message-id and date 
headers, and if the message had a recent enough date header to be within 
your chosen window of operation, and you had not seen that message-id within 
that window of operation, and the message in question was posted on one of 
the newsgroups you're subscribed to, then you'd accept the message.

No watermarks here.

Of course, you continually purge old message-ids out of your database, but 
you do want to keep them for a while after the window has expired, in case 
someone takes an old feed and tries to re-submit it -- you want to be able 
to reject all those old re-posted articles.

> Understood.  If you will tell me what (and possibly how to get) you want 
> and I'll get it for you.

Mark Sapiro would be a much better person to have that part of the 
discussion with.  He's the lead developer for the 2.1 "stable" branch, and 
he would be able to tell you what you might need to do.

> Thank you for all your effort.

Please let us know how it goes.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 13 20:22:58 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:22:58 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008111310290602037a573b51@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008111310290602037a573b51@msapiro>
Message-ID: <491C7E92.3060002@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/13/08 12:29, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> See my previous reply at 
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-November/063980.html>.

(I have now read your reply.  I was continuing in the sub-thread with 
Brad and had not gotten to your message yet, which now I have.)

> Your problem is the messages have been renumbered on the news server 
> and the most recent message on the server is now 42368, but the 
> list's wartermark is 339203 or almost 300000 messages higher.

I do believe that sounds completely plausible and is exactly the type of 
problem that I was thinking was going on.  Well very close.  It does 
appear to be related to the ""remembered messages not being correct (as 
opposed to being corrupted).

> You need to reset the list's watermark as I discuss in the above 
> reply.

*nod*

I will attempt to do this in the near future (read: 6 - 36 hours) and 
let you know what happens.

Thank you for your input.



Grant. . . .

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Thu Nov 13 21:02:39 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:02:39 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
Message-ID: <491C87DF.1070208@washburn.edu>

When I create a new list from the web interface I get an email 
confirmation just fine.  My question is I know that this didn't update 
the aliases file and didn't know if there was any configuring I could do 
so that the aliases file is updated and creating a list is automatic.  I 
did look in the archives and online but I could find anything, maybe I 
am not searching correctly.

-- 
Jewel 


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 13 21:22:06 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:22:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
In-Reply-To: <491C87DF.1070208@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC187020081113122206075080bfcf74@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>When I create a new list from the web interface I get an email 
>confirmation just fine.  My question is I know that this didn't update 
>the aliases file and didn't know if there was any configuring I could do 
>so that the aliases file is updated and creating a list is automatic.  I 
>did look in the archives and online but I could find anything, maybe I 
>am not searching correctly.


If your outgoing MTA is Postfix, see
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node13.html>. If Sendmail, see
step 6. in the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/B4Au> and/or the last
paragraph of the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/joA9> and the list
post to which it links.

If you are using aliases with come other MTA, you can probably adapt
the Sendmail methods.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Jan at Bytesmiths.com  Fri Nov 14 00:00:33 2008
From: Jan at Bytesmiths.com (Jan Steinman)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:00:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recommended way to get subscriber list with full
	names?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23510.1226601194.3486.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.23510.1226601194.3486.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <3EBC4C1B-7CC6-401F-8555-13B119DC2DFC@Bytesmiths.com>

I've set up mailman for a client to use as an announcement mechanism  
-- one writer, many readers.

My client needs to periodically get a list of subscribers, including  
the names they entered, and to have a count.

I put 'list_members -f -p NewsletterName | sort -d -b -f' in a php  
script with secret URL for her to use, but it is failing with  
"Permission denied: '/private/var/mailman/lists/newslettername/ 
config.pck'."

Should I simply change perms on that file (and any others that may  
come up once that one can be read), or is there a better way of  
accomplishing this goal?

Thanks for any advice offered!

:::: The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you  
are the easiest person to fool. -- Richard Feynman ::::
:::: Jan Steinman, http://www.EcoReality.org ::::




From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Nov 14 00:36:25 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:36:25 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recommended way to get subscriber list with
 full names?
In-Reply-To: <3EBC4C1B-7CC6-401F-8555-13B119DC2DFC@Bytesmiths.com>
References: <mailman.23510.1226601194.3486.mailman-users@python.org>
	<3EBC4C1B-7CC6-401F-8555-13B119DC2DFC@Bytesmiths.com>
Message-ID: <491CB9F9.207@shub-internet.org>

Jan Steinman wrote:

> I put 'list_members -f -p NewsletterName | sort -d -b -f' in a php 
> script with secret URL for her to use, but it is failing with 
> "Permission denied: 
> '/private/var/mailman/lists/newslettername/config.pck'."

The script will need to run as whatever uid and gid you used to install the 
Mailman software.

> Should I simply change perms on that file (and any others that may come 
> up once that one can be read), or is there a better way of accomplishing 
> this goal?

If you change the perms, I suspect that will break Mailman.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 14 00:40:52 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:40:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recommended way to get subscriber list with
	fullnames?
In-Reply-To: <3EBC4C1B-7CC6-401F-8555-13B119DC2DFC@Bytesmiths.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020081113154052084380bfcfff@msapiro>

Jan Steinman wrote:
>
>I put 'list_members -f -p NewsletterName | sort -d -b -f' in a php  
>script with secret URL for her to use, but it is failing with  
>"Permission denied: '/private/var/mailman/lists/newslettername/ 
>config.pck'."
>
>Should I simply change perms on that file (and any others that may  
>come up once that one can be read), or is there a better way of  
>accomplishing this goal?


You can't change permissions because these files are continually being
re-created, and the change won't stick.

Your php script runs as the web server user and that user does not have
permission on these files, and you don't want it to for security
reasons.

Mailman itself accesses all its CGIs via SETGID wrappers which run as
group 'mailman' which is how Mailman's security works. See the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/tYA9>.

I don't think you can do this directly with php because SETGID won't
work on a php script. I suppose you could build a compiled SETGID
wrapper to invoke command line php, but it would be just as easy to
just invoke a shell to run those commands directly from a compiled
SETGID CGI.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Nov 14 16:43:59 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:43:59 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] public archives not accessible (Forbidden 403)
Message-ID: <f97db12e1de19.1de19f97db12e@washburn.edu>

I have a few lists which are public and they are not accessible, which I
cannot figure out why.  I have several thread which talk about this
exact problem but their solutions have not helped.  

Here is what's in my httpd.conf file:
ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/
Alias /pipermail/ /usr/local/mailman/archives/public/
<Directory /usr/local/mailman/archives/>
    Options +FollowSymlinks
    Order allow,deny
    Allow from all
</Directory>

Here's is what what my permissions and symlinks are:
lrwxrwxrwx 1 mailman mailman   42 Nov 11 16:18 testlist ->
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/testlist

Also, I am able to access the archives if I use the following path:
http://lists.washlaw.edu/mailman/private/testlist

Thanks,

Jewel 

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 14 16:54:18 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 07:54:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] public archives not accessible (Forbidden 403)
In-Reply-To: <f97db12e1de19.1de19f97db12e@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008111407541808599391e9ad@msapiro>

jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:

>I have a few lists which are public and they are not accessible, which I
>cannot figure out why.  I have several thread which talk about this
>exact problem but their solutions have not helped.  
>
>Here is what's in my httpd.conf file:
>ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/
>Alias /pipermail/ /usr/local/mailman/archives/public/
><Directory /usr/local/mailman/archives/>
>    Options +FollowSymlinks
>    Order allow,deny
>    Allow from all
></Directory>
>
>Here's is what what my permissions and symlinks are:
>lrwxrwxrwx 1 mailman mailman   42 Nov 11 16:18 testlist ->
>/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/testlist


Did you see the post at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-October/063745.html>
which attempted to address this issue the last time you raised it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Nov 14 18:27:12 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:27:12 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] public archives not accessible (Forbidden 403)
 - Fixed
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081114085627062523cd004c@msapiro>
References: <PC187020081114085627062523cd004c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <491DB4F0.3020505@washburn.edu>

It's fixed!  Once I changed the permissions on my private directory using:

chmod o+x private

I was able to access the public archives.

Thanks!
Jewel

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> drwxrws--- 202 mailman mailman 12288 Nov 14 09:15 private
>> drwxrwsr-x   2 mailman mailman  4096 Nov 14 09:15 public
>>     
>
>
> At least part of the problem is the private/ directory's ownership and
> permission.
>
> You need to do one of the following:
>
> chmod o+x private
>
> or
>
> chown apache private
>
> where 'apache' is the user that the web server runs as. If your web
> server runs as some other user (maybe 'www' or 'nobody') you need to
> use that instead.
>
> In other words, archives/private must be either o+x or owned by the
> user the web server runs as (set by the User directive in httpd.conf).
>
>
>   
>> Also, i am confused what /pipermail/ really is.  I don't see a directory
>> called pipermail. 
>>     
>
>
> There is no 'pipermail' directory. You have (or should have) in
> httpd.conf
>
> Alias /pipermail/ "/usr/lib/mailman/archives/public/"
>
> This directive overrides the DocumentRoot directive for URLs of the
> form http://www.example.com/pipermail/... and says to look for
> /usr/lib/mailman/archives/public/... to satisfy that request.
>
>
> I am confused about what's going on. You were getting a 403 which was
> caused by the ownership/premissions on archives/private.
>
> Now you're getting a 404 because you either removed the
>
> Alias /pipermail/ "/usr/lib/mailman/archives/public/"
>
> or it's in a <VirtualHost> block for a host other than the one you are
> accessing. The 404 is because apache is looking for pipermail in the
> DocumentRoot /var/www/html/ because the Alias /pipermail/ has gone
> missing.
>
>   

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator


From Kirsten.Petersen at oregonstate.edu  Thu Nov 13 17:31:26 2008
From: Kirsten.Petersen at oregonstate.edu (Petersen, Kirsten J - NET)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:31:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tracking a message that dissappeared
Message-ID: <7B4268E5ACB878429B58D4BE5B780E8301C9DAC8@NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu>

I'm looking for some help finding out why a message was not delivered to
one of our lists.  

We're running Mailman 2.1.10 on Debian.

I tracked the message from our postfix relays to the Mailman server,
where I see the following in the smtp log:

smtp.1:Nov 12 17:27:08 2008 (6917)
<mailman.50515.1226539627.6914.outages at lists.oregonstate.edu> smtp to
outages for 1 recips, completed in 0.037 seconds

There are no other log entries for that message - nothing in vette or
error.  But the message never came to the list.  There were no pending
moderation requests, it's not in the list archive and obviously the
subscribers didn't receive it.

Another message was sent to the list a few minutes later, and delivered
successfully:

smtp.1:Nov 12 17:39:06 2008 (6917)
<7B4268E5ACB878429B58D4BE5B780E8301BA8A4F at NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu>
smtp to outages for 181 recips, completed in 0.190 seconds


The first message was sent to "outages at oregonstate.edu", an alias for
the list address.  The "require_explicit_destination" setting is set to
"No".  The second message was sent to the actual list address,
outages at lists.oregonstate.edu, and was delivered normally.

So why did the first message only go to "1 recips"?  Are there any other
logs that I can check to discover what went wrong?

________________
Kirsten Petersen
Network Services * Oregon State University
http://oregonstate.edu/net * irc.oregonstate.edu #osu-is
"Paper doesn't grow on trees."



From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 14 19:21:17 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:21:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tracking a message that dissappeared
In-Reply-To: <7B4268E5ACB878429B58D4BE5B780E8301C9DAC8@NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008111410211705622db00083@msapiro>

Petersen, Kirsten J wrote:

>I'm looking for some help finding out why a message was not delivered to
>one of our lists.  
>
>We're running Mailman 2.1.10 on Debian.
>
>I tracked the message from our postfix relays to the Mailman server,
>where I see the following in the smtp log:
>
>smtp.1:Nov 12 17:27:08 2008 (6917)
><mailman.50515.1226539627.6914.outages at lists.oregonstate.edu> smtp to
>outages for 1 recips, completed in 0.037 seconds


This is not the message to Mailman. It is some kind of notice being
sent from Mailman to someone (the Message-ID is a Mailman generated
message id). It may be a reject notice to a poster or a notice of some
kind to the list owner or completely unrelated to the 'missing' post.


>There are no other log entries for that message - nothing in vette or
>error.  But the message never came to the list.  There were no pending
>moderation requests, it's not in the list archive and obviously the
>subscribers didn't receive it.


All of which is consistent with a rejected post.


>Another message was sent to the list a few minutes later, and delivered
>successfully:
>
>smtp.1:Nov 12 17:39:06 2008 (6917)
><7B4268E5ACB878429B58D4BE5B780E8301BA8A4F at NWS-EXCH2.nws.oregonstate.edu>
>smtp to outages for 181 recips, completed in 0.190 seconds
>
>
>The first message was sent to "outages at oregonstate.edu", an alias for
>the list address.  The "require_explicit_destination" setting is set to
>"No".  The second message was sent to the actual list address,
>outages at lists.oregonstate.edu, and was delivered normally.
>
>So why did the first message only go to "1 recips"?  Are there any other
>logs that I can check to discover what went wrong?


The message to 1 recipient was not the post. As I said above, it was a
mailman generated notice, possibly about the post. Find this message
in your MTA logs and see who it was delivered to for clues. If it is a
rejected post, there won't be anything else in Mailman's logs.

My best guess is the post was rejected for some reason and the message
to 1 recipient was the rejection notice.

It seems unlikely that the rejection is related to the address to which
the message was sent.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Fri Nov 14 20:26:55 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:26:55 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <491C7E92.3060002@riverviewtech.net>
References: <PC18702008111310290602037a573b51@msapiro>
	<491C7E92.3060002@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <491DD0FF.9020606@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/13/08 13:22, Taylor, Grant wrote:
> I do believe that sounds completely plausible and is exactly the type of 
> problem that I was thinking was going on.  Well very close.  It does 
> appear to be related to the ""remembered messages not being correct (as 
> opposed to being corrupted).

I just received confirmation that the news server did indeed change 
things.  In fact the news service provider is changing from one data 
center to another by way of bring a new facility on line and migrating 
connections over to it.  In the process of the migration all the message 
IDs changed.

So now I need to find the new message ID for the last message that I 
received.  I believe with that information I can set my watermark to 
that and Mailman will then catch up.



Grant. . . .

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Nov 14 22:07:46 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:07:46 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One private archive not appearing online
Message-ID: <491DE8A2.4070800@washburn.edu>

I have one list which won't display online the archives.  I don't 
receive any web page error, it's just blank. I also have confirmed the 
archives are listed in the directory and that I can view them from the 
command line. I have the correct permissions.

-- 
Jewel r


From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Fri Nov 14 22:29:14 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:29:14 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news... - SOLVED
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008111309530105936b669352@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008111309530105936b669352@msapiro>
Message-ID: <491DEDAA.1030306@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/13/08 11:53, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> You may have never seen this because it may be a one-time transient 
> error. Or, if it did show up from cron, it would probably be emailed 
> as output from the cron, which would be sent to 'mailman' unless you 
> have a MAILTO in the crontab, and depending on how your 'mailman' 
> site list is set up, you may never see it.

I'll look in to setting the MAILTO for the user that is running the cron 
job.  As is I did not see much of any thing at all, other than what I 
sent to the mailing list.

> In any case, the above error says gate_news is closing the connection 
> to the news server, and the underlying Python nntplib received no 
> response to the QUIT command it sent to the server.

*nod*

> As far as your actual problem is concerned, since gate_news is being 
> run, I am guessing that for some reason, the messages were renumbered 
> on the news server and the current message numbers are all less than 
> the list's usenet_watermark. If this is the case, you have a couple 
> of choices.

This is indeed the case.  As I stated in another message, my news 
provider changed from an old server (with high article numbers) to a new 
server (with low article numbers).

> You can do a mass_catchup from the list's Mail<->News gateways page. 
> If the watermark is the issue, this will allow news->mail to begin 
> again, but previously posted news that hasn't been gated will be 
> lost.

Ugh.  I don't particularly care for this idea.

> To avoid losing messages, you would need to access the news server 
> and determine the current number of the last gated message and use 
> Mailman's bin/withlist or bin/config_list to set the list's 
> usenet_watermark to that value.

*nod*

This is the route that I went.  I ended up running TCPDump and sniffed 
the traffic from my NNTP client (Thunderbird) and the news server to get 
the article number of the last article that Mailman gatewayed for me.

In the interest of people searching the archives, here is what I did to 
solve my problem.  I then used the following command(s) to set the 
watermark for my mailing list.

    $ bin/withlist -l comp.mail.sendmail
    >>> m.usenet_watermark = 41965
    >>> m.Save()
    >>> ^D

(comp.mail.sendmail is my mailing list and 41965 is what I set the 
watermark to)

When I started writing this reply Mailman / gate_news was busy 
downloading messages from the server (as seen by TCPDump).  And by now 
I'm receiving messages from Mailman in my email client like I'm suppose 
to do.

So I believe that everything is solved.

Thank you all for your help.

In the end I'm glad that it was actually something nefarious (changing / 
renumbering article IDs) on the providers end rather than a problem in 
Mailman.  Things like this help bolster confidence in programs.  :)

Thanks again for all your help!



Grant. . . .

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Fri Nov 14 22:29:45 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:29:45 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is no longer gatewaying news...
In-Reply-To: <491C72DE.1080805@shub-internet.org>
References: <4918785D.7020909@riverviewtech.net>	<491879C8.7070902@riverviewtech.net>	<4919E916.9090604@shub-internet.org>	<4919EFBE.3090103@riverviewtech.net>	<491B88DA.9060501@shub-internet.org>	<491BD93B.8040507@riverviewtech.net>	<491BEBA3.5080907@shub-internet.org>	<491C6D7E.8030404@riverviewtech.net>
	<491C72DE.1080805@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <491DEDC9.1040805@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/13/08 12:33, Brad Knowles wrote:
> There's your problem.  Somehow your watermark got set ridiculously high, 
> or the news server decided to re-number all their articles into a much 
> lower range, and from now until the end of eternity, you're not going to 
> find any "new" articles to pull out of the newsgroup and post to the list.

Ayup.

> You're going to need to reset that watermark, if you want to get things 
> working again.

*nod*

I've done that and things are indeed working.  :)  (See my other last post.)

> You would need to talk to your news server administrator to see if they 
> did a re-numbering, or silently switched you to be pointed at a 
> different news server with a different article numbering, or what.

TCPDump is a wonderful thing.

> This is one of those cases where it helps to be the administrator of 
> both sets of systems, so that you know what's going on under the hood on 
> both ends of the connection, and you have full control over what changes 
> are or are not made.

*nod*

I'm working on setting up an install of INN for this and another similar 
issue.

> BTW, if you were using a server-style feed mechanism, there wouldn't be 
> a watermark issue.
> 
> You would instead track incoming messages by their message-id and date 
> headers, and if the message had a recent enough date header to be within 
> your chosen window of operation, and you had not seen that message-id 
> within that window of operation, and the message in question was posted 
> on one of the newsgroups you're subscribed to, then you'd accept the 
> message.
> 
> No watermarks here.
> 
> Of course, you continually purge old message-ids out of your database, 
> but you do want to keep them for a while after the window has expired, 
> in case someone takes an old feed and tries to re-submit it -- you want 
> to be able to reject all those old re-posted articles.

I recently installed INN on a personal server that I'm planing on using 
for this and a few similar things.  Seeing as how I've got gigs of space 
and the fact that I'm only interested in about a dozen news groups, I 
think I'll hold on to data for a very long time and not have any 
problems with duplicates.  I'm thinking that I'll end up setting up a 
feed from INN to Mailman.

> Please let us know how it goes.

(Re)setting the watermark took care of it.  I now have 278 messages to 
catch up on.  <dull monotone sarcasm>ya!</dull monotone sarcasm>



Grant. . . .

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 14 22:46:49 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:46:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One private archive not appearing online
In-Reply-To: <491DE8A2.4070800@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008111413464902819ed8238a@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>I have one list which won't display online the archives.  I don't 
>receive any web page error, it's just blank. I also have confirmed the 
>archives are listed in the directory and that I can view them from the 
>command line. I have the correct permissions.


What is the content of archives/private/LISTNAME/index.html?

Are you just looking at
http://www.example.com/mailman/private/LISTNAME, or are you also
trying other things such as
http://www.example.com/mailman/private/LISTNAME/2008-October?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Nov 14 23:04:03 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:04:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081113122206075080bfcf74@msapiro>
References: <491C87DF.1070208@washburn.edu>
	<PC187020081113122206075080bfcf74@msapiro>
Message-ID: <fe76818e1cff.1cfffe76818e@washburn.edu>

When I add: MTA='Postfix' to my mm_cfg.py file mail stops getting
delivered.  I don't see anything suspicous in my logs to help.  I
checked to confirm that the OutgoingRunner hasn't died.  Postfix appears
to still be livering based on it's logs saying 'sent'.  Anyone else had
this issue?


Jewel
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008 2:22 pm
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
To: Jewel <jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>, Mail List - Mailman
<mailman-users at python.org>

> Jewel wrote:
> 
> >When I create a new list from the web interface I get an email 
> >confirmation just fine.  My question is I know that this didn't 
> update 
> >the aliases file and didn't know if there was any configuring I 
> could do 
> >so that the aliases file is updated and creating a list is 
> automatic.  I 
> >did look in the archives and online but I could find anything, 
> maybe I 
> >am not searching correctly.
> 
> 
> If your outgoing MTA is Postfix, see
> <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node13.html>. If Sendmail, see
> step 6. in the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/B4Au> and/or the last
> paragraph of the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/joA9> and the list
> post to which it links.
> 
> If you are using aliases with come other MTA, you can probably adapt
> the Sendmail methods.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> 

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 14 23:34:19 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:34:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
In-Reply-To: <fe76818e1cff.1cfffe76818e@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC187020081114143419046812560267@msapiro>

jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:

>When I add: MTA='Postfix' to my mm_cfg.py file mail stops getting
>delivered.  I don't see anything suspicous in my logs to help.  I
>checked to confirm that the OutgoingRunner hasn't died.  Postfix appears
>to still be livering based on it's logs saying 'sent'.  Anyone else had
>this issue?


What does the postfix log actually say? Does it say "status=sent
(delivered to command: /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post LISTNAME)"
or does it say "status=sent (delivered to mailbox)" or something else?

After adding MTA = 'Postfix' to mm_cfg.py, you have to run Mailman's
bin/genaliases to build the data/aliases and data/aliases.db files.

You also need to add hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases to the
alias_maps list in Postfix's main.cf.

Then you need to remove any mailman aliases from /etc/aliases or
whereever they were before if not /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases, and
run 'postalias /etc/aliases' (or wherever to update the corresponding
.db file.

The above assumes that Mailman's email domain is not a Postfix virtual
domain. If it is, there's more that needs to be done.

Then depending on how you configured mailman, you might run into group
mismatch errors on mail delivery. See the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/tYA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Nov 14 23:47:08 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:47:08 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081114143419046812560267@msapiro>
References: <fe76818e1cff.1cfffe76818e@washburn.edu>
	<PC187020081114143419046812560267@msapiro>
Message-ID: <fd1fb9451b00.1b00fd1fb945@washburn.edu>

My maillog shows:

Nov 14 16:43:27 lists postfix/smtp[18085]: 60CE58C0013:
to=<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>,
relay=relay.washburnlaw.edu[198.252.9.211]:25, delay=0.18,
delays=0.1/0.02/0.05/0.02, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Message accepted
for delivery)
Nov 14 16:43:27 lists postfix/qmgr[1858]: 60CE58C0013: removed

When I run genaliases I recieve the following error:

postalias: fatal: open /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases.db: Permission denied
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./genaliases", line 116, in ?
    main()
  File "./genaliases", line 106, in main
    MTA.create(mlist, nolock=True, quiet=quiet)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 232, in create
    _update_maps()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 53, in _update_maps
    raise RuntimeError, msg % (acmd, status, errstr)
RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias
/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted)

When I disable my SELinux security I am able to run the genaliases
command successfully but only as root. I only create a few lists a year
so getting this feature is not a high priority but would be nice.  I
also must admit I don't know what you mean by "Postfix virtual domain"

Thanks,


----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Date: Friday, November 14, 2008 4:34 pm
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
To: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu
Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>

> jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:
> 
> >When I add: MTA='Postfix' to my mm_cfg.py file mail stops getting
> >delivered.  I don't see anything suspicous in my logs to help.  I
> >checked to confirm that the OutgoingRunner hasn't died.  Postfix 
> appears>to still be livering based on it's logs saying 'sent'.  
> Anyone else had
> >this issue?
> 
> 
> What does the postfix log actually say? Does it say "status=sent
> (delivered to command: /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post LISTNAME)"
> or does it say "status=sent (delivered to mailbox)" or something else?
> 
> After adding MTA = 'Postfix' to mm_cfg.py, you have to run Mailman's
> bin/genaliases to build the data/aliases and data/aliases.db files.
> 
> You also need to add hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases to the
> alias_maps list in Postfix's main.cf.
> 
> Then you need to remove any mailman aliases from /etc/aliases or
> whereever they were before if not /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases, and
> run 'postalias /etc/aliases' (or wherever to update the corresponding
> .db file.
> 
> The above assumes that Mailman's email domain is not a Postfix virtual
> domain. If it is, there's more that needs to be done.
> 
> Then depending on how you configured mailman, you might run into group
> mismatch errors on mail delivery. See the FAQ at
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/tYA9>.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> 

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Nov 14 23:54:36 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:54:36 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
In-Reply-To: <fd1fb9451b00.1b00fd1fb945@washburn.edu>
References: <fe76818e1cff.1cfffe76818e@washburn.edu>
	<PC187020081114143419046812560267@msapiro>
	<fd1fb9451b00.1b00fd1fb945@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <fd05c03c35e0.35e0fd05c03c@washburn.edu>

Ok, I stand corrected.  Mail is working fine!  

My problem is issuing the genaliases command.  If it only works for root
when SELinux is off it should work for the user mailman.  I have also
added  the hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases to my alias_maps in
/etc/postfix/main.cf

Jewel 

----- Original Message -----
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu
Date: Friday, November 14, 2008 4:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
To: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>

> My maillog shows:
> 
> Nov 14 16:43:27 lists postfix/smtp[18085]: 60CE58C0013:
> to=<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>,
> relay=relay.washburnlaw.edu[198.252.9.211]:25, delay=0.18,
> delays=0.1/0.02/0.05/0.02, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Message 
> acceptedfor delivery)
> Nov 14 16:43:27 lists postfix/qmgr[1858]: 60CE58C0013: removed
> 
> When I run genaliases I recieve the following error:
> 
> postalias: fatal: open /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases.db: 
> Permission denied
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "./genaliases", line 116, in ?
>    main()
>  File "./genaliases", line 106, in main
>    MTA.create(mlist, nolock=True, quiet=quiet)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 232, in 
> create    _update_maps()
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 53, in 
> _update_maps    raise RuntimeError, msg % (acmd, status, errstr)
> RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias
> /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted)
> 
> When I disable my SELinux security I am able to run the genaliases
> command successfully but only as root. I only create a few lists a 
> yearso getting this feature is not a high priority but would be 
> nice.  I
> also must admit I don't know what you mean by "Postfix virtual domain"
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> Date: Friday, November 14, 2008 4:34 pm
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
> To: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu
> Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>
> 
> > jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:
> > 
> > >When I add: MTA='Postfix' to my mm_cfg.py file mail stops getting
> > >delivered.  I don't see anything suspicous in my logs to help.  I
> > >checked to confirm that the OutgoingRunner hasn't died.  Postfix 
> > appears>to still be livering based on it's logs saying 'sent'.  
> > Anyone else had
> > >this issue?
> > 
> > 
> > What does the postfix log actually say? Does it say "status=sent
> > (delivered to command: /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post 
> LISTNAME)"> or does it say "status=sent (delivered to mailbox)" or 
> something else?
> > 
> > After adding MTA = 'Postfix' to mm_cfg.py, you have to run Mailman's
> > bin/genaliases to build the data/aliases and data/aliases.db files.
> > 
> > You also need to add hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases to the
> > alias_maps list in Postfix's main.cf.
> > 
> > Then you need to remove any mailman aliases from /etc/aliases or
> > whereever they were before if not 
> /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases, and
> > run 'postalias /etc/aliases' (or wherever to update the 
> corresponding> .db file.
> > 
> > The above assumes that Mailman's email domain is not a Postfix 
> virtual> domain. If it is, there's more that needs to be done.
> > 
> > Then depending on how you configured mailman, you might run into 
> group> mismatch errors on mail delivery. See the FAQ at
> > <http://wiki.list.org/x/tYA9>.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> > San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. 
> Dylan> 
> > 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/Unsubscribe: 
>
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jewel.brueggeman-makda%40washburn.edu
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov 15 00:03:51 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:03:51 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
In-Reply-To: <fd1fb9451b00.1b00fd1fb945@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008111415035100626ca63971@msapiro>

jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:

>My maillog shows:
>
>Nov 14 16:43:27 lists postfix/smtp[18085]: 60CE58C0013:
>to=<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>,
>relay=relay.washburnlaw.edu[198.252.9.211]:25, delay=0.18,
>delays=0.1/0.02/0.05/0.02, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Message accepted
>for delivery)
>Nov 14 16:43:27 lists postfix/qmgr[1858]: 60CE58C0013: removed


That is some message to you. What does the log show for a message to a
list?

>When I run genaliases I recieve the following error:
>
>postalias: fatal: open /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases.db: Permission denied
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "./genaliases", line 116, in ?
>    main()
>  File "./genaliases", line 106, in main
>    MTA.create(mlist, nolock=True, quiet=quiet)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 232, in create
>    _update_maps()
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 53, in _update_maps
>    raise RuntimeError, msg % (acmd, status, errstr)
>RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias
>/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted)
>
>When I disable my SELinux security I am able to run the genaliases
>command successfully but only as root. I only create a few lists a year
>so getting this feature is not a high priority but would be nice.  I
>also must admit I don't know what you mean by "Postfix virtual domain"


Then you probably don't need to worry about "Postfix virtual domain".

The permissions on Mailman's aliases should look like

-rw-rw---- 1 mark    mailman  7193 Sep  7 07:54 aliases
-rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 12288 Sep  7 07:54 aliases.db

The owner of 'aliases' (mark in this case, maybe root in yours) doesn't
matter, but both files need to be group mailman and aliases.db needs
to be owned by whatever user has a primary group equal to what the
mail wrapper expects.

I don't know SELinux so I can't help with how you might augment the
security policy to allow this to work.

(since I already wrote the above, here it is)

Jewel wrote:

>Ok, I stand corrected.  Mail is working fine!  
>
>My problem is issuing the genaliases command.  If it only works for root
>when SELinux is off it should work for the user mailman.  I have also
>added  the hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases to my alias_maps in
>/etc/postfix/main.cf

If you want web create to work, the apache user running with effective
GID of Mailman's group has to be able to write these files.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Sat Nov 15 00:15:50 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:15:50 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008111415035100626ca63971@msapiro>
References: <fd1fb9451b00.1b00fd1fb945@washburn.edu>
	<PC18702008111415035100626ca63971@msapiro>
Message-ID: <fe74d82a4595.4595fe74d82a@washburn.edu>

By diabling SELinux altogether it worked.  My only question is regarding
what you said earlier, the working was a bit confusing for me:

> > Then you need to remove any mailman aliases from /etc/aliases or
> > whereever they were before if not
> /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases, and
> > run 'postalias /etc/aliases' (or wherever to update the
> corresponding> .db file.

I have alias_maps pointing to both /etc/aliases ad
/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases.  Currently both alias files contain all
of my lists.
So do I need to remove the "mailman" instance from the /etc/aliases file
or all lists?  If I create a new list using the web interface it will
should update both aliases or just the data/aliases? I apologize I am
not understanding.

Jewel 


----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Date: Friday, November 14, 2008 5:04 pm
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
To: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu
Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>

> jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:
> 
> >My maillog shows:
> >
> >Nov 14 16:43:27 lists postfix/smtp[18085]: 60CE58C0013:
> >to=<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>,
> >relay=relay.washburnlaw.edu[198.252.9.211]:25, delay=0.18,
> >delays=0.1/0.02/0.05/0.02, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Message 
> accepted>for delivery)
> >Nov 14 16:43:27 lists postfix/qmgr[1858]: 60CE58C0013: removed
> 
> 
> That is some message to you. What does the log show for a message 
> to a
> list?
> 
> >When I run genaliases I recieve the following error:
> >
> >postalias: fatal: open /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases.db: 
> Permission denied
> >Traceback (most recent call last):
> >  File "./genaliases", line 116, in ?
> >    main()
> >  File "./genaliases", line 106, in main
> >    MTA.create(mlist, nolock=True, quiet=quiet)
> >  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 232, in 
> create>    _update_maps()
> >  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 53, in 
> _update_maps>    raise RuntimeError, msg % (acmd, status, errstr)
> >RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias
> >/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted)
> >
> >When I disable my SELinux security I am able to run the genaliases
> >command successfully but only as root. I only create a few lists a 
> year>so getting this feature is not a high priority but would be 
> nice.  I
> >also must admit I don't know what you mean by "Postfix virtual 
> domain"
> 
> Then you probably don't need to worry about "Postfix virtual domain".
> 
> The permissions on Mailman's aliases should look like
> 
> -rw-rw---- 1 mark    mailman  7193 Sep  7 07:54 aliases
> -rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 12288 Sep  7 07:54 aliases.db
> 
> The owner of 'aliases' (mark in this case, maybe root in yours) 
> doesn'tmatter, but both files need to be group mailman and 
> aliases.db needs
> to be owned by whatever user has a primary group equal to what the
> mail wrapper expects.
> 
> I don't know SELinux so I can't help with how you might augment the
> security policy to allow this to work.
> 
> (since I already wrote the above, here it is)
> 
> Jewel wrote:
> 
> >Ok, I stand corrected.  Mail is working fine!  
> >
> >My problem is issuing the genaliases command.  If it only works 
> for root
> >when SELinux is off it should work for the user mailman.  I have also
> >added  the hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases to my alias_maps in
> >/etc/postfix/main.cf
> 
> If you want web create to work, the apache user running with effective
> GID of Mailman's group has to be able to write these files.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> 

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Sat Nov 15 00:40:18 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:40:18 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
In-Reply-To: <fe74d82a4595.4595fe74d82a@washburn.edu>
References: <fd1fb9451b00.1b00fd1fb945@washburn.edu>
	<PC18702008111415035100626ca63971@msapiro>
	<fe74d82a4595.4595fe74d82a@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <491E0C62.6010702@washburn.edu>

Everything is working now! I am able to create a list via the 
interface.  I read a thread where someone disabled SELinux, then 
re-enabled it, and then rebooted and it worked for them. Sure enough it 
worked for me too.  Not sure why.  I am still wanting to know about the 
aliases though.

Thanks!

jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:
> By diabling SELinux altogether it worked.  My only question is regarding
> what you said earlier, the working was a bit confusing for me:
>
>   
>>> Then you need to remove any mailman aliases from /etc/aliases or
>>> whereever they were before if not
>>>       
>> /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases, and
>>     
>>> run 'postalias /etc/aliases' (or wherever to update the
>>>       
>> corresponding> .db file.
>>     
>
> I have alias_maps pointing to both /etc/aliases ad
> /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases.  Currently both alias files contain all
> of my lists.
> So do I need to remove the "mailman" instance from the /etc/aliases file
> or all lists?  If I create a new list using the web interface it will
> should update both aliases or just the data/aliases? I apologize I am
> not understanding.
>
> Jewel 
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> Date: Friday, November 14, 2008 5:04 pm
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
> To: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu
> Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>
>
>   
>> jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> My maillog shows:
>>>
>>> Nov 14 16:43:27 lists postfix/smtp[18085]: 60CE58C0013:
>>> to=<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>,
>>> relay=relay.washburnlaw.edu[198.252.9.211]:25, delay=0.18,
>>> delays=0.1/0.02/0.05/0.02, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Message 
>>>       
>> accepted>for delivery)
>>     
>>> Nov 14 16:43:27 lists postfix/qmgr[1858]: 60CE58C0013: removed
>>>       
>> That is some message to you. What does the log show for a message 
>> to a
>> list?
>>
>>     
>>> When I run genaliases I recieve the following error:
>>>
>>> postalias: fatal: open /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases.db: 
>>>       
>> Permission denied
>>     
>>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>>  File "./genaliases", line 116, in ?
>>>    main()
>>>  File "./genaliases", line 106, in main
>>>    MTA.create(mlist, nolock=True, quiet=quiet)
>>>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 232, in 
>>>       
>> create>    _update_maps()
>>     
>>>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 53, in 
>>>       
>> _update_maps>    raise RuntimeError, msg % (acmd, status, errstr)
>>     
>>> RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias
>>> /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted)
>>>
>>> When I disable my SELinux security I am able to run the genaliases
>>> command successfully but only as root. I only create a few lists a 
>>>       
>> year>so getting this feature is not a high priority but would be 
>> nice.  I
>>     
>>> also must admit I don't know what you mean by "Postfix virtual 
>>>       
>> domain"
>>
>> Then you probably don't need to worry about "Postfix virtual domain".
>>
>> The permissions on Mailman's aliases should look like
>>
>> -rw-rw---- 1 mark    mailman  7193 Sep  7 07:54 aliases
>> -rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 12288 Sep  7 07:54 aliases.db
>>
>> The owner of 'aliases' (mark in this case, maybe root in yours) 
>> doesn'tmatter, but both files need to be group mailman and 
>> aliases.db needs
>> to be owned by whatever user has a primary group equal to what the
>> mail wrapper expects.
>>
>> I don't know SELinux so I can't help with how you might augment the
>> security policy to allow this to work.
>>
>> (since I already wrote the above, here it is)
>>
>> Jewel wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Ok, I stand corrected.  Mail is working fine!  
>>>
>>> My problem is issuing the genaliases command.  If it only works 
>>>       
>> for root
>>     
>>> when SELinux is off it should work for the user mailman.  I have also
>>> added  the hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases to my alias_maps in
>>> /etc/postfix/main.cf
>>>       
>> If you want web create to work, the apache user running with effective
>> GID of Mailman's group has to be able to write these files.
>>
>> -- 
>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>>
>>
>>     
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jewel.brueggeman-makda%40washburn.edu
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>   

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov 15 00:44:04 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:44:04 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
In-Reply-To: <fe74d82a4595.4595fe74d82a@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC187020081114154404057842776f86@msapiro>

jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:

>By diabling SELinux altogether it worked.  My only question is regarding
>what you said earlier, the working was a bit confusing for me:
>
>> > Then you need to remove any mailman aliases from /etc/aliases or
>> > whereever they were before if not
>> /usr/local/mailman/data/aliases, and
>> > run 'postalias /etc/aliases' (or wherever to update the
>> corresponding> .db file.
>
>I have alias_maps pointing to both /etc/aliases ad
>/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases.


This part is correct.
-

>Currently both alias files contain all
>of my lists.


This is not correct, but it get's complicated. The only list aliases
which are actually being used by Postfix are the ones in the file
which is mentioned first in the main.cf alias_maps directive.

Normally, you would remove all of Mailman's aliases for the mailman
list and all the other lists from /etc/aliases, but if the owner of
/etc/aliases.db is not the same (mailman?) as the owner of
/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases.db, this will break mail delivery to
Mailman, at least until you reconfigure Mailman with
--with-mail-gid=mailman and reinstall.


>So do I need to remove the "mailman" instance from the /etc/aliases file
>or all lists?  If I create a new list using the web interface it will
>should update both aliases or just the data/aliases? I apologize I am
>not understanding.


For Postfix/Mailman integration to work as intended, Mailman's aliases
(for all lists) should only be in data/aliases*. Then list creation
and deletion maintains these aliases. But, as I note above, this has
an effect on mail delivery to Mailman, because when Postfix finds an
alias which is a pipe to a command, Postfix runs that command (the
mailman/mail/mailman wrapper) as the user who owns the aliases.db file
in which it found that aliases and as the group which is that user's
primary group.

Now, if the aliases are coming from /etc/aliases.db which I suspect is
owned by root, Postfix is invoking the wrapper as root:root, and if
this is working and not giving a group mismatch error, the wrapper was
compiled with --with-mail-gid=root. If you then remove the aliases
from /etc/aliases, postfix will get them from data/aliases.db and will
run the pipe as the owner of that file and that owner's group (not the
group of the file).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From knabe at 4j.lane.edu  Sat Nov 15 00:50:31 2008
From: knabe at 4j.lane.edu (Troy Knabe)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:50:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disable Mailman Moderating
Message-ID: <9CDE37CB-F41B-4681-897E-1112C2B11B08@4j.lane.edu>

I have several lists that I do not want mailman moderating for size,  
implicit destination addresses, too many recipients, etc.

But I would like mailman to moderate non-members posting, etc.  How do  
I alter the settings for the above moderations?

Thanks
-Troy


From tmz at pobox.com  Sat Nov 15 01:04:49 2008
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:04:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "create a new list" web interface
In-Reply-To: <fe74d82a4595.4595fe74d82a@washburn.edu>
References: <fd1fb9451b00.1b00fd1fb945@washburn.edu>
	<PC18702008111415035100626ca63971@msapiro>
	<fe74d82a4595.4595fe74d82a@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081115000449.GF20204@inocybe.teonanacatl.org>

jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:
> By diabling SELinux altogether it worked.

If you don't want to keep SELinux disabled, it should be possible to
make mailman work without too much trouble.  I do know that the Red
Hat packages install mailman in locations that are more FHS compliant
to help ease the writing of the SELinux policy.  If you're installing
mailman from source, it might be a little messier.

FWIW, I installed mailman from the packages provided as part of CentOS
5 and did a little light testing.  I had to create a small SELinux
policy module to allow mailman to be able to play nicely with postfix
and have the web interface be able to create lists.  The audit2allow
tool made this fairly trivial (easier than the manual steps I'll
list below to recreate the SELinux module, in fact :).

So, the policy that was generated via audit2allow is:

module mailmanpostfix 1.0;

require {
	type mailman_mail_t;
	type mailman_archive_t;
	type postfix_etc_t;
	type mailman_cgi_t;
	class file { read getattr };
	class dir search;
}

#============= mailman_cgi_t ==============
allow mailman_cgi_t postfix_etc_t:dir search;
allow mailman_cgi_t postfix_etc_t:file { read getattr };

#============= mailman_mail_t ==============
allow mailman_mail_t mailman_archive_t:dir search;

If you put that in to a file, say mailmanpostfix.te, you can compile
it into a module and load it with just a few commands (all taken from
the audit2allow manpage):

# Compile the module
$ checkmodule -M -m -o mailmanpostfix.mod mailmanpostfix.te
# Create the package
$ semodule_package -o mailmanpostfix.pp -m mailmanpostfix.mod
# Load the module into the kernel
$ semodule -i mailmanpostfix.pp

Now, I don't claim to be enough of an SELinux guru to know whether
some of the generated policy could be tightened up, but I don't think
any of it looks egregiously incorrect.  It's also quite likely to be
more secure than disabling SELinux entirely. ;)

On another note, you also said that you needed to be root to make
genaliases work.  Is that perhaps because the permissions and
ownership on the aliases* files are not correct? The mailman install
manual details the proper permission and ownership commands you should
run:

http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/node13.html

-- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The best leaders inspire by example. When that's not an option, brute
intimidation works pretty well, too.
    -- Demotivators (www.despair.com)

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From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov 15 01:15:49 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:15:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disable Mailman Moderating
In-Reply-To: <9CDE37CB-F41B-4681-897E-1112C2B11B08@4j.lane.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811141615490140226a5d7d@msapiro>

Troy Knabe wrote:

>I have several lists that I do not want mailman moderating for size,  
>implicit destination addresses, too many recipients, etc.
>
>But I would like mailman to moderate non-members posting, etc.  How do  
>I alter the settings for the above moderations?


On General Options

Maximum length in kilobytes (KB) of a message body. Use 0 for no limit.


On Privacy options... -> Recipient filters

Must posts have list named in destination (to, cc) field (or be among
the acceptable alias names, specified below)?
  set it to No

Ceiling on acceptable number of recipients for a posting.
  set it to 0 for no limit.

etc.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Sat Nov 15 05:11:53 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:11:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List owner and email
In-Reply-To: <OF21CC96DF.FC210462-ON85257500.004533A8-85257500.0045ACD8@csc.com>
References: <OF21CC96DF.FC210462-ON85257500.004533A8-85257500.0045ACD8@csc.com>
Message-ID: <491E4C09.6010407@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/13/2008 6:41 AM, Patricia A Moss wrote:
> I have already run that test and mail from the system, itself, sends 
> fine.  It is just from mailman that there is a problem.

Good.  That means that basic MTA functionality is working.

> This is the "From" address of the test email: root 
> <root at palinux04.fcg.com>

*nod*

Can we see example log entries for a message that is not being delivered 
but rather stuck in the queue?

Also, what MTA are you using?  (I don't know what Red Hat 4 comes with.)



Grant. . . .

From cite+mailman-users at incertum.net  Sat Nov 15 12:57:01 2008
From: cite+mailman-users at incertum.net (Stefan =?utf-8?Q?F=C3=B6rster?=)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:57:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recommended way to get subscriber list with
	full names?
In-Reply-To: <3EBC4C1B-7CC6-401F-8555-13B119DC2DFC@Bytesmiths.com>
References: <mailman.23510.1226601194.3486.mailman-users@python.org>
	<3EBC4C1B-7CC6-401F-8555-13B119DC2DFC@Bytesmiths.com>
Message-ID: <20081115115700.GF30047@mail.incertum.net>

* Jan Steinman <Jan at Bytesmiths.com> wrote:
> My client needs to periodically get a list of subscribers, including
> the names they entered, and to have a count.
> 
> I put 'list_members -f -p NewsletterName | sort -d -b -f' in a php
> script with secret URL for her to use, but it is failing with
> "Permission denied: '/private/var/mailman/lists/newslettername/
> config.pck'."

What does "periodically" mean? Once every five minutes? Do you really
need real time data?

If you followed the installation instructions carefully, you created a
dedicated user who owns Mailman files and directories and can execute
the command cited above. Simply execute the command as this user,
write the output to a defined location and then have your PHP script
read that file and display it.

Judging from the error message above, you are running MacOS X which
supports the traditional Unix "cron" daemon as well as a new service
called "launchd". You can use both of them to create the required
output periodically.

If you did not create a dedicated user for Mailman during
installation then I'm out of ideas.


Ciao
Stefan
-- 
Stefan F?rster     http://www.incertum.net/     Public Key: 0xBBE2A9E9
FdI #203: ?ffentliche Adressverzeichnisse - Spammers Umschreibung f?r das
Usenet. (Marc Haber)

From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Mon Nov 17 05:42:45 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:42:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Message-ID: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi friends, hoping you can help me out. I am having to do too much work running our lists.

Apparently, list members not as knowledgeable as I are looking in the headers for our list address, and accidentally end up using the wrong address.

In the header there are at least three instances of the address:
listname-bounces at lists.host.org

Sender:
Return-Path
Errors-To:

All contain an address that can be too easily mistaken for the list address.

That means I end up having to do personal contact with way too many people to let them know that they did not use the correct address, so they need to resend.

I notice that this list does not show me the real address in those headers, but rather something like:
Sender: mailman-users-bounces+myaddress=mydomain.org at python.org

So I would guess that the list admin for this listserver rarely sees users mistaking the Sender: header for the correct address.

I am getting pretty tired of this. How can I fix it?

This is a hosted list at dreamhost, so I cannot run any commands. If there is an easy cure, I can probably get the host to do it (it would probably have to apply to all their hosted lists, not just mine), but is there something I can do about this?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From wjonhind at gmail.com  Mon Nov 17 12:19:25 2008
From: wjonhind at gmail.com (Jon Hind)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:19:25 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 57, Issue 27
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10.1226919608.4915.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.10.1226919608.4915.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <f766081a0811170319odae5928x2b146bf1c4804e80@mail.gmail.com>

You could set the reply address to the list address - in the web interface.
It's shown as deprecated - but works well for me.

Jon

2008/11/17 <mailman-users-request at python.org>

> Send Mailman-Users mailing list submissions to
>        mailman-users at python.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        mailman-users-request at python.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        mailman-users-owner at python.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Mailman-Users digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. listname-bounces@ (Michael Welch)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Michael Welch <mwelch at redwoodalliance.org>
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:42:45 -0800
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
> Hi friends, hoping you can help me out. I am having to do too much work
> running our lists.
>
> Apparently, list members not as knowledgeable as I are looking in the
> headers for our list address, and accidentally end up using the wrong
> address.
>
> In the header there are at least three instances of the address:
> listname-bounces at lists.host.org
>
> Sender:
> Return-Path
> Errors-To:
>
> All contain an address that can be too easily mistaken for the list
> address.
>
> That means I end up having to do personal contact with way too many people
> to let them know that they did not use the correct address, so they need to
> resend.
>
> I notice that this list does not show me the real address in those headers,
> but rather something like:
> Sender: mailman-users-bounces+myaddress=mydomain.org at python.org
>
> So I would guess that the list admin for this listserver rarely sees users
> mistaking the Sender: header for the correct address.
>
> I am getting pretty tired of this. How can I fix it?
>
> This is a hosted list at dreamhost, so I cannot run any commands. If there
> is an easy cure, I can probably get the host to do it (it would probably
> have to apply to all their hosted lists, not just mine), but is there
> something I can do about this?
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Michael Welch, volunteer
> Redwood Alliance
> PO Box 293
> Arcata, CA 95518
> 707-822-7884
> mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
> www.redwoodalliance.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>



-- 
Jon

From brad at python.org  Mon Nov 17 17:57:14 2008
From: brad at python.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:57:14 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Please trim your replies and edit your subject
 lines: (was: Re: Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 57, Issue 27)
In-Reply-To: <f766081a0811170319odae5928x2b146bf1c4804e80@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.10.1226919608.4915.mailman-users@python.org>
	<f766081a0811170319odae5928x2b146bf1c4804e80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4921A26A.4080709@python.org>

Jon Hind wrote:

> You could set the reply address to the list address - in the web interface.
> It's shown as deprecated - but works well for me.

If you're going to reply to a message from one of the digests, please make 
sure to trim your reply to include just the relevant text and to edit the 
subject line to match that of the message you replying to.

Thank you.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at python.org>
Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team & Co-Moderator of the
mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists

From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Nov 17 18:09:03 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:09:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <4921A52F.4000609@shub-internet.org>

Michael Welch wrote:

> That means I end up having to do personal contact with way too many
> people to let them know that they did not use the correct address, so
> they need to resend.
> 
> I notice that this list does not show me the real address in those
> headers, but rather something like:
>
> Sender: mailman-users-bounces+myaddress=mydomain.org at python.org
> 
> So I would guess that the list admin for this listserver rarely sees
> users mistaking the Sender: header for the correct address.

We get a few people who send to mailman-users-owner thinking that they're 
posting to the whole list, but I disabuse them of that notion.

Over the several years I've been acting as one of the co-owners of this 
list, I don't recall getting any messages being sent by users to 
mailman-users-bounces.

> I am getting pretty tired of this. How can I fix it?

You can set up an auto-responder.  For the web admin page for your mailing 
list, go to the "Auto-responder" section.  From there, you can set the 
auto-responder message for all posts that are sent to the list, and there's 
a separate auto-responder message that you can create for all messages sent 
to listname-owner, which should also include all messages sent to 
listname-bounces.

Make sure you check the settings of the various related radio-buttons for 
these automatic responses, and change them to be more appropriate for your 
situation if they are not correct.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From jbernier at risd.edu  Mon Nov 17 15:44:26 2008
From: jbernier at risd.edu (Jeff Bernier)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:44:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Securing My Mailman Lists
Message-ID: <s9213d1a.056@risd.edu>

Hello all,
 
I have inherited a Mac Xserve server running Mailman from a support person that is no longer employed at our school.
 
I have changed the Admin password on the server, and also changed (or thought I did) the Admin passwords for the Mailman lists as well.
 
The old admin password is still working for theses lists. How can I completely remove this old password?
 
Any help is appreciate.
 
Jeff

 

-- 

 
 
Jeff Bernier
E-mail Administrator
Rhode Island School of Design
401.454.6168



From post at rstahl.de  Mon Nov 17 15:27:28 2008
From: post at rstahl.de (Ralph Stahl)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:27:28 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] appearance of member list (2.1.9)
Message-ID: <49217F50.8020709@rstahl.de>

Hi,

normally (?) the member list shows all members from A to Z at one page.
I have seen a list, where a kind of "tabs" is above it with links
"A"..."Z", and only the members with one of these letters are listet at
one page. It seems to be not very useful to me, I'd like to change it to
the "normal" appearance.

Is it possible? I am not the admin of the server, therefore I can only
use the admin frontend.

Thanks for hints,
Ralph


From b19141 at anl.gov  Mon Nov 17 18:36:24 2008
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:36:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Brad Knowles <brad@shub-internet.org>'
	dated: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:09:03 -0600
Message-ID: <20081117173624.9E320175DD@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org> wrote in reply, in part:

>Over the several years I've been acting as one of the co-owners of this
>list, I don't recall getting any messages being sent by users to
>mailman-users-bounces.

I have some Mailman lists, and if a recipient does a "reply-all"
from a BlackBerry device, then the -bounces address is included in the
reply.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Mon Nov 17 19:01:06 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:01:06 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One private archive not appearing online
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008111413464902819ed8238a@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008111413464902819ed8238a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4921B162.3030707@washburn.edu>

The index.html is blank!  Not sure how long it's been that way.  Is 
there a way to generate or create a new one?

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Jewel wrote:
>
>   
>> I have one list which won't display online the archives.  I don't 
>> receive any web page error, it's just blank. I also have confirmed the 
>> archives are listed in the directory and that I can view them from the 
>> command line. I have the correct permissions.
>>     
>
>
> What is the content of archives/private/LISTNAME/index.html?
>
> Are you just looking at
> http://www.example.com/mailman/private/LISTNAME, or are you also
> trying other things such as
> http://www.example.com/mailman/private/LISTNAME/2008-October?
>
>   

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator


From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Mon Nov 17 19:32:56 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:32:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <4921A52F.4000609@shub-internet.org>
References: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
	<4921A52F.4000609@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>



Brad Knowles wrote at 09:09 AM 11/17/2008:
 
>Michael Welch wrote:
>
>>That means I end up having to do personal contact with way too many
>>people to let them know that they did not use the correct address, so
>>they need to resend.
>>I notice that this list does not show me the real address in those
>>headers, but rather something like:
>>
>>Sender: mailman-users-bounces+myaddress=mydomain.org at python.org
>>So I would guess that the list admin for this listserver rarely sees
>>users mistaking the Sender: header for the correct address.
>
>We get a few people who send to mailman-users-owner thinking that they're posting to the whole list, but I disabuse them of that notion.
>
>Over the several years I've been acting as one of the co-owners of this list, I don't recall getting any messages being sent by users to mailman-users-bounces.

Right, that must be because this list's Sender: header does not look like a real email address. I wonder why ours are different.

>>I am getting pretty tired of this. How can I fix it?
>
>You can set up an auto-responder.  For the web admin page for your mailing list, go to the "Auto-responder" section.  From there, you can set the auto-responder message for all posts that are sent to the list, and there's a separate auto-responder message that you can create for all messages sent to listname-owner, which should also include all messages sent to listname-bounces.

That does not work, I assume because the message to -owner is coming from -bounces and not from the original list member. So an autoresponder would be sent back to -bounces, which might actually create an endless loop (though I imagine Mailman traps for that).


- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Nov 17 20:09:11 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:09:11 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>	<4921A52F.4000609@shub-internet.org>
	<20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <4921C157.5060401@shub-internet.org>

Michael Welch wrote:

> That does not work, I assume because the message to -owner is coming from
> -bounces and not from the original list member. So an autoresponder would
> be sent back to -bounces, which might actually create an endless loop
> (though I imagine Mailman traps for that).

You are correct, Mailman should trap for that.  This means that there's no 
harm in testing out the feature yourself, just to see what happens.

If it works, you're done.  If not, then no harm should be done, and we can 
explore other possibilities.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Mon Nov 17 20:12:30 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:12:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <4921C157.5060401@shub-internet.org>
References: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
	<4921A52F.4000609@shub-internet.org>
	<20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
	<4921C157.5060401@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <20081117191238.01B1D5F5A7@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi Brad. I did test it, hence "That does not work."

But I do appreciate the reminder, because I had intended to populate that particular autoresponder.

Brad Knowles wrote at 11:09 AM 11/17/2008:
 
>Michael Welch wrote:
>
>>That does not work, I assume because the message to -owner is coming from
>>-bounces and not from the original list member. So an autoresponder would
>>be sent back to -bounces, which might actually create an endless loop
>>(though I imagine Mailman traps for that).
>
>You are correct, Mailman should trap for that.  This means that there's no harm in testing out the feature yourself, just to see what happens.
>
>If it works, you're done.  If not, then no harm should be done, and we can explore other possibilities.


- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Nov 17 20:20:42 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:20:42 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <20081117191238.01B1D5F5A7@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>	<4921A52F.4000609@shub-internet.org>	<20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>	<4921C157.5060401@shub-internet.org>
	<20081117191238.01B1D5F5A7@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <4921C40A.8010208@shub-internet.org>

Michael Welch wrote:

> Hi Brad. I did test it, hence "That does not work."

Ahh, sorry.  It wasn't clear to me that you had actually tested it or not.
My bad.

> But I do appreciate the reminder, because I had intended to populate that
> particular autoresponder.

And thanks to your note, I have more fully populated the auto-responder for 
mailman-users-owner and mailman-users-request, too.

I'm sorry this has not yet solved your problem, but I do appreciate the 
opportunity to improve our own configuration even more.  Thanks!

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From jbernier at risd.edu  Mon Nov 17 22:11:48 2008
From: jbernier at risd.edu (Jeff Bernier)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:11:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Securing My Mailman Lists
Message-ID: <s92197e6.020@risd.edu>

Hello all,

I have inherited a Mac Xserve server running Mailman from a support person that is no longer employed at our school.

I have changed the Admin password on the server, and also changed (or thought I did) the Admin passwords for the Mailman lists as well.

The old admin password is still working for theses lists. How can I completely remove this old password?

Any help is appreciated.

Jeff



-- 



Jeff Bernier
E-mail Administrator
Rhode Island School of Design
401.454.6168


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Nov 18 02:21:08 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 10:21:08 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
	<4921A52F.4000609@shub-internet.org>
	<20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <87d4gtomm3.fsf@xemacs.org>

Michael Welch writes:

 > Right, that must be because this list's Sender: header does not
 > look like a real email address. I wonder why ours are different.

It's one of the "VERP" settings.  While "true" VERP is done by the
MTA, not by agents like Mailman, the basic idea is the same: to
"personalize" various fields in the message so that the original that
elicited a reply (including a bounce) can be identified.

IIRC there are two.  One which enables VERP for various administrative
messages which allows occasional checking for bounces, the other
enables it for all messages.  I believe this is possible on a per-list
basis.  You want the latter.

The downside is performance, which is why VERP off is the default.
Each message has to be composed individually, which increases the
processor load a bit.  This is probably negligible.  More important,
each message has to be sent individually, which can dramatically slow
down processing if you have any large groups of members served by a
single receiving MTA.  (It is possible to specify multiple recipients
for a single message; the receiving MTA will fetch it from the network
once, then distribute copies.  Sort of like you fax a handout to the
meeting organizer, and he makes Xeroxes for all the attendees.  Much
more efficient than faxing one to each attendee!)

I'm still on Mailman 2.1.5 which doesn't seem to have this feature, or
maybe it's only available through the command line interface.  If it
sounds like what you need, say so and I'm sure somebody will tell you
where the setting can be made.  Note that this configuration may be
disabled or objectionable to your ISP because of the possible impact
on performance.

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Nov 18 02:56:48 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:56:48 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <87d4gtomm3.fsf@xemacs.org>
References: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>	<4921A52F.4000609@shub-internet.org>	<20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
	<87d4gtomm3.fsf@xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <492220E0.6060309@shub-internet.org>

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> The downside is performance, which is why VERP off is the default.

That and the fact that not all MTAs support VERP at all, and some of the 
ones that do support VERP don't support it by default.  So, we leave this 
option turned off by default.

> I'm still on Mailman 2.1.5 which doesn't seem to have this feature, or
> maybe it's only available through the command line interface.

VERP is available on Mailman 2.1.5, but it does have to be enabled in the 
configuration file, before you can actually see the option in the web admin 
UI for your list(s).

Which is actually the problem here, since the OP is on a shared server and 
they're not likely to allow him to enable VERP since doing so would make 
everyone else capable of doing the same thing, and that would probably just 
*bury* the server performance.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Tue Nov 18 03:04:34 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:04:34 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <87d4gtomm3.fsf@xemacs.org>
References: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>	<4921A52F.4000609@shub-internet.org>	<20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
	<87d4gtomm3.fsf@xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <492222B2.2010600@riverviewtech.net>

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> It's one of the "VERP" settings.  While "true" VERP is done by the 
> MTA, not by agents like Mailman, the basic idea is the same: to 
> "personalize" various fields in the message so that the original that 
> elicited a reply (including a bounce) can be identified.

Um...  Please explain what you mean by "... true VERP is done by the MTA 
...".  Are you thinking of SRS?  I'm not aware of any thing else at the 
MTA level that will alter the SMTP Envelope sender (MAIL FROM:).  As far 
as RFC 822 headers, that is almost completely up to the MSA.  About the 
only thing that the MTA does is insert (or append) a header if it does 
not already exist.

> IIRC there are two.  One which enables VERP for various 
> administrative messages which allows occasional checking for bounces, 
> the other enables it for all messages.  I believe this is possible on 
> a per-list basis.  You want the latter.

I think you are thinking of the Non-digest delivery option "Personalize" 
and its possible values:  "No", "Yes", and "Full Personalization".  Yes 
these are per-list settings.

> The downside is performance, which is why VERP off is the default. 
> Each message has to be composed individually, which increases the 
> processor load a bit.  This is probably negligible.  More important, 
> each message has to be sent individually, which can dramatically slow 
> down processing if you have any large groups of members served by a 
> single receiving MTA.  (It is possible to specify multiple recipients 
> for a single message; the receiving MTA will fetch it from the 
> network once, then distribute copies.  Sort of like you fax a handout 
> to the meeting organizer, and he makes Xeroxes for all the attendees. 
> Much more efficient than faxing one to each attendee!)

Correct.  However, (IMHO) it does help make your message appear to be 
less spammy in nature.  If you receive two questionable messages, one 
with your email address listed in the To: / CC: header(s) and one with 
out it, you are far more likely to consider the one that does not list 
your email address as spam than the one that does have your email 
address.  Similarly with the use of the name in the email address with 
Full Personalization.



Grant. . . .

From skip at pobox.com  Tue Nov 18 06:20:38 2008
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:20:38 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses our
	spam filters
Message-ID: <18722.20646.44808.370222@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>


With the help of the python.org postmasters I figured something out about
spam on the python-list at python.org mailing list over the weekend.  I was
confused that some seemingly obvious spams made it through to the mailing
list subscribers.  Then I noticed that it didn't appear these spams had even
seen the spam filter.  The headers the filter adds were missing and I could
never find their Message-Id's in the spam filter's logs.

Mailman operates the bidirectional gateway between the Usenet newsgroup
comp.lang.python and the python-list at python.org mailing list.  When it sees
a Usenet message on the one side it distributes the posting directly to its
subscribers, and vice versa.  Because Usenet postings don't arrive by email
the spam filtering we have in place (which occurs before Mailman sees a mail
message) is not done.  Mailman happily passes such unfiltered mail on to the
list.

I still haven't figured out quite how to solve the problem.  In theory we
could use some other tool to perform the gateway operation.  Instead of
passing Usenet postings directly to Mailman it would mail them to
python-list at python.org where they would get the spam filter treatment before
Mailman sees them.  I'm still thinking about the full ramifications of that.
It might be easier to get Mailman's news-to-mail gateway to mail incoming
Usenet messages to the list address instead of directly distributing them to
the subscribers though.  I don't believe Mailman does that out of the box
(but I would love to be wrong here).  Has anyone tried implementing that?
If so, got a patch or a recipe for how to configure Mailman to operate this
way?

Thanks,

-- 
Skip Montanaro - skip at pobox.com - http://smontanaro.dyndns.org/

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Nov 18 08:13:07 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:13:07 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <492220E0.6060309@shub-internet.org>
References: <20081117044634.A2E5B5F464@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
	<4921A52F.4000609@shub-internet.org>
	<20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
	<87d4gtomm3.fsf@xemacs.org> <492220E0.6060309@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <874p25o6bg.fsf@xemacs.org>

Brad Knowles writes:

 > VERP is available on Mailman 2.1.5, but it does have to be enabled in the 
 > configuration file, before you can actually see the option in the web admin 
 > UI for your list(s).

OK, so that probably was a deliberate decision and won't fly on his ISP.

 > Which is actually the problem here, since the OP is on a shared server and 
 > they're not likely to allow him to enable VERP since doing so would make 
 > everyone else capable of doing the same thing, and that would probably just 
 > *bury* the server performance.

Well, maybe if it's not advertised and he asks pretty please with
whipped cream and cherries on top and promises cross my heart and hope
to die to keep it secret, the List Czar at the ISP will change it only
for his list(s) from the CLI.  Weak, I know, but it *could* work ....

Good luck!

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Nov 18 08:28:20 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:28:20 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses
	our	spam filters
In-Reply-To: <18722.20646.44808.370222@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
References: <18722.20646.44808.370222@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
Message-ID: <873ahpo5m3.fsf@xemacs.org>

skip at pobox.com writes:

 > I still haven't figured out quite how to solve the problem.  In
 > theory we could use some other tool to perform the gateway
 > operation.  Instead of passing Usenet postings directly to Mailman
 > it would mail them to python-list at python.org where they would get
 > the spam filter treatment before Mailman sees them.  I'm still
 > thinking about the full ramifications of that.

Well, you want to watch out for greylisting.  But running them through
SpamBayes from Mailman should be trivial.  You could also add (with a
slight performance hit) a Handler that calls out to SpamBayes,
SpamAssassin, etc, only when the MTA didn't already do that, or only
when the message's from_usenet flag is set.

 > It might be easier to get Mailman's news-to-mail gateway to mail
 > incoming Usenet messages to the list address instead of directly
 > distributing them to the subscribers though.

That's probably not a great idea as ToUsenet comes pretty late in the
pipeline.

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Nov 18 08:40:50 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:40:50 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses our
 spam filters
In-Reply-To: <18722.20646.44808.370222@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
References: <18722.20646.44808.370222@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
Message-ID: <49227182.3010003@shub-internet.org>

on 11/17/08 11:20 PM, skip at pobox.com said:

> It might be easier to get Mailman's news-to-mail gateway to mail incoming
> Usenet messages to the list address instead of directly distributing them to
> the subscribers though.  I don't believe Mailman does that out of the box
> (but I would love to be wrong here).  Has anyone tried implementing that?
> If so, got a patch or a recipe for how to configure Mailman to operate this
> way?

Ironically, we run an external news-to-mail gateway at ntp.org, based on 
the long-existing standard tools in the INN toolbox.  We do this because 
Mailman generates it's own message-ids when it gateways the articles 
from news to mail, and the news reading public for ntp.org complained 
violently.  The mail-to-news gateway from INN re-uses the same 
message-id as was originally contained within the news posting, so when 
people refer to a given message-id, it's always the same regardless of 
whether or not they are using mail or news.

This is related to FAQ 4.59 at 
<http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030712>.


If we implemented a proper server-side read/post interface for Mailman, 
we could fix a lot of other USENET gateway problems, too.

For one thing, we would no longer need high watermarks for article 
numbers, we would instead track whether or not we've seen a given 
message (and therefore whether or not it needs to be gatewayed) based on 
whether we've seen that message-id within our lifetime window, and any 
articles older than the lifetime window would get ignored.

A server-side implementation would also allow us to directly feed 
outgoing articles to news routing servers, potentially bypassing a large 
news reader server infrastructure and being both more robust and more 
efficient.  And we could take feeds from multiple upstream news routing 
servers, too.


But as I said recently on this mailing list, I'm not a programmer and I 
don't have the necessary skills to write a proper server-side interface 
for USENET news to be incorporated into Mailman.

So, I let this issue drop a few years ago when I first brought it up, 
although it does seem to come back up every so often.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Nov 18 08:46:26 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:46:26 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses	our
 spam filters
In-Reply-To: <873ahpo5m3.fsf@xemacs.org>
References: <18722.20646.44808.370222@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
	<873ahpo5m3.fsf@xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <492272D2.70708@shub-internet.org>

on 11/18/08 1:28 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull said:

> Well, you want to watch out for greylisting.  But running them through
> SpamBayes from Mailman should be trivial.  You could also add (with a
> slight performance hit) a Handler that calls out to SpamBayes,
> SpamAssassin, etc, only when the MTA didn't already do that, or only
> when the message's from_usenet flag is set.

We've got more to the anti-spam processing for our mail server 
infrastructure than just SpamBayes.  We've got several components whose 
function I only know about slightly in passing, and they all have an 
impact on the incoming mail traffic.  We wouldn't be doing them if they 
didn't have an impact.

I am a fan of SpamAssassin in general, but it is not part of that 
toolkit.  I'm not sure how much some of those other components are 
specifically tied into postfix, and may be of limited use with any other 
program.  And of course the host-level firewalling we're doing to reject 
connections from the worst abusers operates at a completely different level.


There's a lot to be said for the simplicity of just having all this 
traffic handled via e-mail, just like all the other bi-directional 
traffic we're doing.

We will have to be careful about loops, however.  We wouldn't want to 
gateway the same thousand-articles-plus per day many times over.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From measl at mfn.org  Tue Nov 18 05:26:34 2008
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:26:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The Mysterious Disappearing Disk Space (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0811172225550.21649@mx1.mfn.org>


Greetings,

	I have looked through the archives for something similar to my 
issue, and I noticed that by searching on "disk full", I get similar 
reports beginning in roughly July of 08.

	As with these other reports, I have noticed *tremendous* 
disappearing space.  When I tried to find the actual files, I was 
unsuccessful.  Interestingly, if I stop mailman and then restart it, the 
"missing" space miraculously reappears! 

	So, now that the background is over with, here's where I find 
myself (besides just looking stupid):

(1) Yesterday I enabled VERP, and it appeared to be working well,  At the 
time I turned on VERP, I had around 5gb of free space (which would take 
about two weeks to "disappear" before VERP).
(2) Around 2pm today, the disk was full, and mailman died.
(3) My inkling of something being wrong was this on the web interface:

  "Bug in Mailman version 2.1.11rc2

  We're sorry, we hit a bug!

  Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of 
  traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, 
  but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs. "

(4) Upon looking at the system in response to the above missive, I checked 
and saw the system ws out of space again.  I did what I always do - shut 
down mailman (which usually drops ~5gb of "missing" space, and then 
restart it.  Everything before today has come up roses doing this.

(5) There is nothing in any of the logs that indicate why this message is 
continuing to poke fun at me.

(6) I have looked through the various manuals, pdfs, etc, and cannot find 
anything about explicitly enabling logging so that I can get a better 
handle on this.


Oddly, as a mailman user since around 2001, this is the first real problem 
Ive had: Great platform!!!  Mediocre admin though, and one begging for 
help as well.

All the best,

//Alif

-- 
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin_at_mfn.org
0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Tue Nov 18 16:20:49 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:20:49 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some messages not being posted or delivered
Message-ID: <4922DD51.2020803@washburn.edu>

I am having reports from some of my lists that some messages are not 
getting through to the members but they are visible through the 
archives.  Also I have seen posts go through to the list but not the 
archives.  I have not idea where to start.  I know of a particular user 
who is having problems posting and I can't find anything in my logs that 
help provide a clue as to what is happening. 

I am running Mailman 2.1.11 on Red Hat 5.1 and using Postfix.

-- 
Jewel 


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 18 18:13:03 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:13:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811180913030859df1c299e@msapiro>

Michael Welch wrote:
>
>Right, that must be because this list's Sender: header does not look like a real email address. I wonder why ours are different.


This thread has been well covered. I just want to add a couple of
things:

As mentioned in other replies, the difference in the 'bounces' address
is that it is VERP like on this list and not on yours.

Also, enabling Mailman's VERP on all list posts will not necessarily
stop people from replying to the VERPd address, but it will stop your
seeing their replies because VERPd bounces are never "unrecognized".
Also, if they do it often enough, they will be disabled by bounce
processing.

Finally, as alluded to in another reply, this is probably not "users"
replying to the -bounces address because they see it in a header.
Rather, it is more likely to be user's MUAs. See
<http://wiki.list.org/x/RoA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 18 18:31:47 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:31:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail
	bypassesour	spam filters
In-Reply-To: <873ahpo5m3.fsf@xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811180931470515df1c2872@msapiro>

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>skip at pobox.com writes:
>
> > It might be easier to get Mailman's news-to-mail gateway to mail
> > incoming Usenet messages to the list address instead of directly
> > distributing them to the subscribers though.
>
>That's probably not a great idea as ToUsenet comes pretty late in the
>pipeline.


ToUsenet is only involved in gating mail from the list to the
newsgroup. Newsgroup to mailman is handled by cron/gate_news which
drops messages directly in Mailman's incoming queue.

It would be simple to have it "mail" the message instead, but the
issues I see off the top are:

1. Does the MTA spam filtering process treat mail differently if it
"originates" from the local machine?

2. Does the list accept news posted by non-list-members. If so, you'd
need to flag the message in some way as being from usenet. This is
done in standard gate_news by setting a fromusenet flag in the
message's metadata when the message is queued, but if you are
"mailing" the message, you can't do this.

As indicated in another reply, another approach would be to have
gate_news run the message through the spam checks directly before
queueing it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 18 18:42:59 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:42:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses our
	spam filters
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811180931470515df1c2872@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811180942590671df1c291a@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>
>>skip at pobox.com writes:
>>
>> > It might be easier to get Mailman's news-to-mail gateway to mail
>> > incoming Usenet messages to the list address instead of directly
>> > distributing them to the subscribers though.
>>
>>That's probably not a great idea as ToUsenet comes pretty late in the
>>pipeline.
>
>
>ToUsenet is only involved in gating mail from the list to the
>newsgroup. Newsgroup to mailman is handled by cron/gate_news which
>drops messages directly in Mailman's incoming queue.
>
>It would be simple to have it "mail" the message instead, but the
>issues I see off the top are:
>
>1. Does the MTA spam filtering process treat mail differently if it
>"originates" from the local machine?
>
>2. Does the list accept news posted by non-list-members. If so, you'd
>need to flag the message in some way as being from usenet. This is
>done in standard gate_news by setting a fromusenet flag in the
>message's metadata when the message is queued, but if you are
>"mailing" the message, you can't do this.


There is another issue. Without the fromusenet flag in the metadata, if
you are gating from the list to usenet, the message will be posted
back to the news group. Ultimately, you'd need to add a custom handler
to the pipeline to detect mail from gate_news and add the fromusenet
flag.

I think the approach below would be better.


>As indicated in another reply, another approach would be to have
>gate_news run the message through the spam checks directly before
>queueing it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 18 19:05:11 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 10:05:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Securing My Mailman Lists
In-Reply-To: <s92197e6.020@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811181005110828df1c2987@msapiro>

Jeff Bernier wrote:
>
>I have changed the Admin password on the server, and also changed (or thought I did) the Admin passwords for the Mailman lists as well.
>
>The old admin password is still working for theses lists. How can I completely remove this old password?


Use Mailman's bin/mmsitepass to set the site admin and list creator
passwords.

Use Mailman's bin/change_pw or the lists web admin interface to change
the list admin passwords.

Use the lists web admin interface to change the list moderator
passwords.

If that still leaves old passwords viable, it must be an Apple specific
issue.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 18 19:11:48 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 10:11:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] appearance of member list (2.1.9)
In-Reply-To: <49217F50.8020709@rstahl.de>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811181011480093df1c26cd@msapiro>

Ralph Stahl wrote:
>
>normally (?) the member list shows all members from A to Z at one page.
>I have seen a list, where a kind of "tabs" is above it with links
>"A"..."Z", and only the members with one of these letters are listet at
>one page. It seems to be not very useful to me, I'd like to change it to
>the "normal" appearance.


The web admin membership list is broken into multiple pages when the
number of members exceeds the list's admin_member_chunksize attribute
(set at list create time - normally 30 members).

Beginning in Mailman 2.1.10, this is settable via the list's web admin
interface. Prior to that, only command line tools such as
bin/config_list can change it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Tue Nov 18 19:14:26 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:14:26 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail delivery not consistent and very slow
Message-ID: <49230602.4060209@washburn.edu>

I recently upgraded my Mailman onto a new machine.  It appeared 
everything was running smoothly except now I have users saying they are 
posting and not seeing it come through.  All messages are successfully 
posting to the archives and I am seeing most messages get delivered but 
not 100%.  I have read the FAQ's and followed all of the suggestions 
without any errors:
http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030722
http://tinyurl.com/6xrrju*

*My smtp-failure and error logs are not helping me determine what's 
wrong. Whenever I post a test to any list so far it always gets 
delivered. But I have a few users who said they have tried several times 
and don't see anything.  I had one woman try again this morning and can 
see it on the archive but not in my email -but other postings have been 
successful!!
 Please help me.  I have several members upset about the delay or lack 
of delivery and I can't find out what's going on.

Jewel

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 18 19:17:32 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 10:17:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One private archive not appearing online
In-Reply-To: <4921B162.3030707@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811181017320765433a70dd@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>The index.html is blank!  Not sure how long it's been that way.  Is 
>there a way to generate or create a new one?


Normally, it gets rewritten with each archived post. Has this list
received any posts since you noticed the problem?

If there is a good archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox file
containing all the list's posts, you could rin "bin/arch --wipe" to
rebuild the archive.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From ed at justbrits.com  Tue Nov 18 20:48:38 2008
From: ed at justbrits.com (Ed at JustBrits)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:48:38 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail delivery not consistent and very slow
In-Reply-To: <49230602.4060209@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEFIEOOGMCKMBLEKCFNAEBOEMAA.ed@justbrits.com>

Jewel wrote:

---I recently upgraded my Mailman onto a new machine.  It appeared
---everything was running smoothly except now I have users saying they are
---posting and not seeing it come through.  All messages are successfully
---posting to the archives and I am seeing most messages get delivered but
---not 100%.  I have read the FAQ's and followed all of the suggestions
---without any errors:
---http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030722
---http://tinyurl.com/6xrrju*
---
---*My smtp-failure and error logs are not helping me determine what's
---wrong. Whenever I post a test to any list so far it always gets
---delivered. But I have a few users who said they have tried several times
---and don't see anything.  I had one woman try again this morning and can
---see it on the archive but not in my email -but other postings have been
---successful!!
--- Please help me.  I have several members upset about the delay or lack
---of delivery and I can't find out what's going on.
---
---Jewel
------------------------------------------------------
Jewel, I am sure that it would help the gurus if you tell us if you see
a/any given ISP involved.

I had a prob with a couple gmail users on ONE of my Lists which my hosting
Tech gent was able to solve [I don't have a clue, Mark -:):):)].

Ed


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Tue Nov 18 21:09:44 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:09:44 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail delivery not consistent and very slow
In-Reply-To: <CAEFIEOOGMCKMBLEKCFNAEBOEMAA.ed@justbrits.com>
References: <CAEFIEOOGMCKMBLEKCFNAEBOEMAA.ed@justbrits.com>
Message-ID: <49232108.8070204@washburn.edu>

I know it's not a gmail problem because it's happening with so many 
lists. I did notice that my CPU is almost always at 100% due to python - 
don't know why.  I know my machine is spitting out lots of mail but 
cannot figure out what there is such a delay. 

Ed at JustBrits wrote:
> Jewel wrote:
>
> ---I recently upgraded my Mailman onto a new machine.  It appeared
> ---everything was running smoothly except now I have users saying they are
> ---posting and not seeing it come through.  All messages are successfully
> ---posting to the archives and I am seeing most messages get delivered but
> ---not 100%.  I have read the FAQ's and followed all of the suggestions
> ---without any errors:
> ---http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030722
> ---http://tinyurl.com/6xrrju*
> ---
> ---*My smtp-failure and error logs are not helping me determine what's
> ---wrong. Whenever I post a test to any list so far it always gets
> ---delivered. But I have a few users who said they have tried several times
> ---and don't see anything.  I had one woman try again this morning and can
> ---see it on the archive but not in my email -but other postings have been
> ---successful!!
> --- Please help me.  I have several members upset about the delay or lack
> ---of delivery and I can't find out what's going on.
> ---
> ---Jewel
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Jewel, I am sure that it would help the gurus if you tell us if you see
> a/any given ISP involved.
>
> I had a prob with a couple gmail users on ONE of my Lists which my hosting
> Tech gent was able to solve [I don't have a clue, Mark -:):):)].
>
> Ed
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jewel.brueggeman-makda%40washburn.edu
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>   

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Tue Nov 18 22:11:45 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:11:45 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
Message-ID: <49232F91.4020202@washburn.edu>

I really need someone to help me.  I have confirmed that mail is coming 
from my server but then it disappears.  I don't know what logs to look 
at or what items to check to check if the problem is in fact my machine 
not able to process the mail. 

-- 
Jewel


From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Tue Nov 18 22:33:03 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:33:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811180913030859df1c299e@msapiro>
References: <20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
	<PC1870200811180913030859df1c299e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20081118213345.21EE51E4010@bag.python.org>

Thanks to all, lots of info in there.

I see now that it is probably not user error that is causing this, but that some users have a version of Outlook that may inadvertently picking up the address from the Sender: header.

So, I have a feature suggestion: Add an autoreply option for -bounces incoming emails.

Mark Sapiro wrote at 09:13 AM 11/18/2008:
 
>Michael Welch wrote:
>>
>>Right, that must be because this list's Sender: header does not look like a real email address. I wonder why ours are different.
>
>
>This thread has been well covered. I just want to add a couple of
>things:
>
>As mentioned in other replies, the difference in the 'bounces' address
>is that it is VERP like on this list and not on yours.
>
>Also, enabling Mailman's VERP on all list posts will not necessarily
>stop people from replying to the VERPd address, but it will stop your
>seeing their replies because VERPd bounces are never "unrecognized".
>Also, if they do it often enough, they will be disabled by bounce
>processing.
>
>Finally, as alluded to in another reply, this is probably not "users"
>replying to the -bounces address because they see it in a header.
>Rather, it is more likely to be user's MUAs. See
><http://wiki.list.org/x/RoA9>.
>
>-- 
>Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org



From skip at pobox.com  Tue Nov 18 22:38:54 2008
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:38:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses our
 spam filters
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811180942590671df1c291a@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811180931470515df1c2872@msapiro>
	<PC1870200811180942590671df1c291a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <18723.13806.829540.152556@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>

cron/gate-news doesn't look all that obtuse.  Perhaps I can simply import
the SpamBayes machinery and run it before delivering the message to the
list.

Skip

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 18 23:22:51 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:22:51 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
In-Reply-To: <49232F91.4020202@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811181422510828df1c29af@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>I really need someone to help me.  I have confirmed that mail is coming 
>from my server but then it disappears.  I don't know what logs to look 
>at or what items to check to check if the problem is in fact my machine 
>not able to process the mail. 


You've raised a few issues: missing delivery, slow delivery, lost posts.

The FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4oA9> has some info on mail not
being delivered to some users.

For slow delivery, check Mailman's 'smtp' log and Mailman's qfiles/out/
queue for signs of backlogging - i.e. anywhere from some to lots of
entries in qfiles/out; log entries of the form

Nov 18 08:51:29 2008 (30746) <message id> smtp to LISTNAME for 217
recips, completed in 4.734 seconds

with fewer than tens or hundreds of messages per second and timestamps
equal to the previous entry's time stamp plus the processing time of
this entry.

Also check the MTA log and follow a post from the MTA to mailman and
back to the MTA and from there to the end users. If posts are being
sent to end recipients and not bouncing, they've left your control and
if recipients aren't receiving them, you have to look to the receiving
server.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 18 23:53:17 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:53:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The Mysterious Disappearing Disk Space (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0811172225550.21649@mx1.mfn.org>
Message-ID: <PC187020081118145317075046a670bf@msapiro>

J.A. Terranson wrote:
>
>	I have looked through the archives for something similar to my 
>issue, and I noticed that by searching on "disk full", I get similar 
>reports beginning in roughly July of 08.
>
>	As with these other reports, I have noticed *tremendous* 
>disappearing space.  When I tried to find the actual files, I was 
>unsuccessful.  Interestingly, if I stop mailman and then restart it, the 
>"missing" space miraculously reappears! 


Is this Solaris? If so, see the thread beginning at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-July/062359.html>
which is about an alleged memory leak.

If you're running out of disk, and restarting the processes solves it,
it may be swap space that's eating up the disk.


>	So, now that the background is over with, here's where I find 
>myself (besides just looking stupid):
>
>(1) Yesterday I enabled VERP, and it appeared to be working well,  At the 
>time I turned on VERP, I had around 5gb of free space (which would take 
>about two weeks to "disappear" before VERP).


5gb of free disk space doesn't seem like a lot these days.


>(2) Around 2pm today, the disk was full, and mailman died.


Enabling VERP might cause the MTA to use a lot more queue space, but I
don't see that it would affect Mailman much.


>(3) My inkling of something being wrong was this on the web interface:
>
>  "Bug in Mailman version 2.1.11rc2
>
>  We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>
>  Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of 
>  traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, 
>  but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs. "
>
>(4) Upon looking at the system in response to the above missive, I checked 
>and saw the system ws out of space again.  I did what I always do - shut 
>down mailman (which usually drops ~5gb of "missing" space, and then 
>restart it.  Everything before today has come up roses doing this.


So are you saying that this time you didn't recover any disk space or
just that the web error didn't go away. If the latter, it seems likely
that the disk space error caused a config.pck file to be corrupted and
that is the cause of the recurrent "bug". What is the traceback from
the most recent of these from the error log?


>(5) There is nothing in any of the logs that indicate why this message is 
>continuing to poke fun at me.


There almost certainly is something in Mailman's error log unless the
logfile just can't be grown to accommodate the message.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 19 00:29:08 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:29:08 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811181422510828df1c29af@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811181422510828df1c29af@msapiro>
Message-ID: <49234FC4.7070008@washburn.edu>

At first mail was being delivered - then it stopped - and now it's 
delivering again but everytime it has been delivering the messages are 
delivered out of order and the delay can be anywhere from 10 min - 4 
hours. I looked at the FAQ and I know this is not my issue because users 
from gmail, aol, yahoo, etc are receiving - it's just that they response 
of post is delayed.  If I send a test to the mailman list (which I am a 
member of) I can see in the /var/log/maillog that the message was sent 
and my smtp log looks fine.  I can also see the post in archives.  A 
while later I will finally see the post in my inbox.  I am concerned 
that my machine is the culprit  but am not sure.  I have check the 
qfiles/in and qfiles/out and they are empty.  I do have a lot in 
qfiles/bad but that's because there is a lot of bad emails on these lists.

I am not sure how to "follow a post" from MTA to Mailman and back to MTA 
to confirm my machine is processing correctly. 

Thanks,
Jewel

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Jewel wrote:
>
>   
>> I really need someone to help me.  I have confirmed that mail is coming 
>>     
> >from my server but then it disappears.  I don't know what logs to look 
>   
>> at or what items to check to check if the problem is in fact my machine 
>> not able to process the mail. 
>>     
>
>
> You've raised a few issues: missing delivery, slow delivery, lost posts.
>
> The FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4oA9> has some info on mail not
> being delivered to some users.
>
> For slow delivery, check Mailman's 'smtp' log and Mailman's qfiles/out/
> queue for signs of backlogging - i.e. anywhere from some to lots of
> entries in qfiles/out; log entries of the form
>
> Nov 18 08:51:29 2008 (30746) <message id> smtp to LISTNAME for 217
> recips, completed in 4.734 seconds
>
> with fewer than tens or hundreds of messages per second and timestamps
> equal to the previous entry's time stamp plus the processing time of
> this entry.
>
> Also check the MTA log and follow a post from the MTA to mailman and
> back to the MTA and from there to the end users. If posts are being
> sent to end recipients and not bouncing, they've left your control and
> if recipients aren't receiving them, you have to look to the receiving
> server.
>
>   

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Nov 19 00:33:04 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:33:04 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
In-Reply-To: <49234FC4.7070008@washburn.edu>
References: <PC1870200811181422510828df1c29af@msapiro>
	<49234FC4.7070008@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <492350B0.5070109@shub-internet.org>

Jewel wrote:

> I am not sure how to "follow a post" from MTA to Mailman and back to MTA 
> to confirm my machine is processing correctly.

That depends on your MTA and what is in the MTA logs.  You should be able to 
track them by message-id when they come in, and again when they go back out, 
and that will tell you how long the delay was.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 19 00:46:09 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:46:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
In-Reply-To: <49234FC4.7070008@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811181546090281530222a2@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>At first mail was being delivered - then it stopped - and now it's 
>delivering again but everytime it has been delivering the messages are 
>delivered out of order and the delay can be anywhere from 10 min - 4 
>hours.


Is your incoming MTA greylisting? This can cause delays and out of
sequence messages, and you can't control the delay because it's
entirely up to the sending MTA. However, if it is greylisting, it
would normally affect only the first post from any particular user to
any particular list. Also, if the message reaches the list archive
without delay, that rules out greylisting.


>I looked at the FAQ and I know this is not my issue because users 
>from gmail, aol, yahoo, etc are receiving - it's just that they response 
>of post is delayed.


OK if the problem is only delay and not totally missing messages,
however, it is possible that some AOL (or other ISP) users will
receive a message and others not because of their individual
whitelists, spam options, etc.


>If I send a test to the mailman list (which I am a 
>member of) I can see in the /var/log/maillog that the message was sent 
>and my smtp log looks fine.  I can also see the post in archives.  A 
>while later I will finally see the post in my inbox.


This sounds like a backlogged out/ queue --

>> For slow delivery, check Mailman's 'smtp' log and Mailman's qfiles/out/
>> queue for signs of backlogging - i.e. anywhere from some to lots of
>> entries in qfiles/out; log entries of the form
>>
>> Nov 18 08:51:29 2008 (30746) <message id> smtp to LISTNAME for 217
>> recips, completed in 4.734 seconds
>>
>> with fewer than tens or hundreds of messages per second and timestamps
>> equal to the previous entry's time stamp plus the processing time of
>> this entry.



>I am concerned 
>that my machine is the culprit  but am not sure.  I have check the 
>qfiles/in and qfiles/out and they are empty.


OK, so the out/ queue is not backlogged all the time, but maybe it is
sometimes. Maybe it's not at all in which case the delays are in
outbound Postfix or beyond.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 19 00:55:41 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:55:41 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811181546090281530222a2@msapiro>
References: <49234FC4.7070008@washburn.edu>
	<PC1870200811181546090281530222a2@msapiro>
Message-ID: <f91989fb397.397f91989fb@washburn.edu>

I am using Postfix and when I send a test to the mailman list, which I
am a member of I can see it being sent in the maillog:
Nov 18 17:39:42 lists postfix/smtp[3953]: DBFB98C0011:
to=<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>,
relay=ims.washburnlaw.edu[198.252.9.211]:25, delay=0.11,
delays=0.03/0.02/0.05/0.01, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Message accepted
for delivery)

Now where and what am I looking for in what log.  When I look at;
/usr/local/mailman/logs/smtp I see stuff like:
Nov 18 17:52:09 2008 (2062) <49235563.9020007 at washburn.edu> smtp to
mailman for 1 recips, completed in 0.045 seconds

Is this what I am suppose to be looking for?

By the way, right now (probably because everyone's gone from work) mail
is getting delivered within 5 minutes or less.  Yet during lunchtime it
would be hours of a delay.  

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Date: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:46 pm
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
To: Jewel <jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>
Cc: Mail List - Mailman <mailman-users at python.org>

> Jewel wrote:
> 
> >At first mail was being delivered - then it stopped - and now it's 
> >delivering again but everytime it has been delivering the messages 
> are 
> >delivered out of order and the delay can be anywhere from 10 min - 
> 4 
> >hours.
> 
> 
> Is your incoming MTA greylisting? This can cause delays and out of
> sequence messages, and you can't control the delay because it's
> entirely up to the sending MTA. However, if it is greylisting, it
> would normally affect only the first post from any particular user to
> any particular list. Also, if the message reaches the list archive
> without delay, that rules out greylisting.
> 
> 
> >I looked at the FAQ and I know this is not my issue because users 
> >from gmail, aol, yahoo, etc are receiving - it's just that they 
> response 
> >of post is delayed.
> 
> 
> OK if the problem is only delay and not totally missing messages,
> however, it is possible that some AOL (or other ISP) users will
> receive a message and others not because of their individual
> whitelists, spam options, etc.
> 
> 
> >If I send a test to the mailman list (which I am a 
> >member of) I can see in the /var/log/maillog that the message was 
> sent 
> >and my smtp log looks fine.  I can also see the post in archives.  
> A 
> >while later I will finally see the post in my inbox.
> 
> 
> This sounds like a backlogged out/ queue --
> 
> >> For slow delivery, check Mailman's 'smtp' log and Mailman's 
> qfiles/out/>> queue for signs of backlogging - i.e. anywhere from 
> some to lots of
> >> entries in qfiles/out; log entries of the form
> >>
> >> Nov 18 08:51:29 2008 (30746) <message id> smtp to LISTNAME for 217
> >> recips, completed in 4.734 seconds
> >>
> >> with fewer than tens or hundreds of messages per second and 
> timestamps>> equal to the previous entry's time stamp plus the 
> processing time of
> >> this entry.
> 
> 
> 
> >I am concerned 
> >that my machine is the culprit  but am not sure.  I have check the 
> >qfiles/in and qfiles/out and they are empty.
> 
> 
> OK, so the out/ queue is not backlogged all the time, but maybe it is
> sometimes. Maybe it's not at all in which case the delays are in
> outbound Postfix or beyond.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> 

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Nov 19 01:05:27 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:05:27 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
In-Reply-To: <f91989fb397.397f91989fb@washburn.edu>
References: <49234FC4.7070008@washburn.edu>	<PC1870200811181546090281530222a2@msapiro>
	<f91989fb397.397f91989fb@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <49235847.5060501@shub-internet.org>

jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:

> I am using Postfix and when I send a test to the mailman list, which I
> am a member of I can see it being sent in the maillog:
> Nov 18 17:39:42 lists postfix/smtp[3953]: DBFB98C0011:
> to=<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>,
> relay=ims.washburnlaw.edu[198.252.9.211]:25, delay=0.11,
> delays=0.03/0.02/0.05/0.01, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Message accepted
> for delivery)

Okay, so look for more lines like this in your postfix log, specifically 
you're looking for lines with a high value in the "delay=" field.

> Now where and what am I looking for in what log.  When I look at;
> /usr/local/mailman/logs/smtp I see stuff like:
> Nov 18 17:52:09 2008 (2062) <49235563.9020007 at washburn.edu> smtp to
> mailman for 1 recips, completed in 0.045 seconds

That just tells you how long it took for Mailman to hand off the message to 
postfix.  If there was a significant delay internal to Mailman, it would 
show up here.  But everything you've said so far indicates that the delays 
you're seeing may not be internal to Mailman.  So, you need to look in the 
MTA logs, too.

> Is this what I am suppose to be looking for?
> 
> By the way, right now (probably because everyone's gone from work) mail
> is getting delivered within 5 minutes or less.  Yet during lunchtime it
> would be hours of a delay.  

Maybe you are rate-limited by your ISP?  They only allow you to send so many 
messages per hour, and with your mailing lists you easily exceed those 
limits at lunchtime?

That's a question you'll need to take to your ISP and have them answer for you.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 19 01:12:00 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:12:00 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
In-Reply-To: <49235847.5060501@shub-internet.org>
References: <49234FC4.7070008@washburn.edu>
	<PC1870200811181546090281530222a2@msapiro>
	<f91989fb397.397f91989fb@washburn.edu>
	<49235847.5060501@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <492359D0.70104@washburn.edu>

Brad Knowles wrote:
> jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:
>
>> I am using Postfix and when I send a test to the mailman list, which I
>> am a member of I can see it being sent in the maillog:
>> Nov 18 17:39:42 lists postfix/smtp[3953]: DBFB98C0011:
>> to=<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>,
>> relay=ims.washburnlaw.edu[198.252.9.211]:25, delay=0.11,
>> delays=0.03/0.02/0.05/0.01, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Message accepted
>> for delivery)
>
> Okay, so look for more lines like this in your postfix log, 
> specifically you're looking for lines with a high value in the 
> "delay=" field.
_This is my postfix mail log - so if I see it was sent here like the 
above example doesn't that mean it has left my machine and it out of my 
control at that point?_
>
>> Now where and what am I looking for in what log.  When I look at;
>> /usr/local/mailman/logs/smtp I see stuff like:
>> Nov 18 17:52:09 2008 (2062) <49235563.9020007 at washburn.edu> smtp to
>> mailman for 1 recips, completed in 0.045 seconds
>
> That just tells you how long it took for Mailman to hand off the 
> message to postfix.  If there was a significant delay internal to 
> Mailman, it would show up here.  But everything you've said so far 
> indicates that the delays you're seeing may not be internal to 
> Mailman.  So, you need to look in the MTA logs, too.
>> Is this what I am suppose to be looking for?
>>
>> By the way, right now (probably because everyone's gone from work) mail
>> is getting delivered within 5 minutes or less.  Yet during lunchtime it
>> would be hours of a delay.  
>
> Maybe you are rate-limited by your ISP?  They only allow you to send 
> so many messages per hour, and with your mailing lists you easily 
> exceed those limits at lunchtime?
_
That rate-limiting would make sense because I am forwarding all the mail 
to a relay which can only deliver 2-3 messages per second._
>
> That's a question you'll need to take to your ISP and have them answer 
> for you.
>

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator


From scott at jda-networks.com  Wed Nov 19 01:36:06 2008
From: scott at jda-networks.com (Scott Race)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:36:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving lists without shell access
Message-ID: <001701c949de$c8043440$6300a8c0@jda.local>

Is there a way to move lists from one server to another without shell access?  I am able to download the archives from the admin interface, but don't have ssh access....
Thanks!

From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 19 01:39:27 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:39:27 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
In-Reply-To: <49235847.5060501@shub-internet.org>
References: <49234FC4.7070008@washburn.edu>
	<PC1870200811181546090281530222a2@msapiro>
	<f91989fb397.397f91989fb@washburn.edu>
	<49235847.5060501@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <4923603F.5050609@washburn.edu>

This is my postfix mail log - so if I see it was sent here like the
below example doesn't that mean it has left my machine and it out of my
control at that point?

Brad Knowles wrote:
> jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:
>
>> I am using Postfix and when I send a test to the mailman list, which I
>> am a member of I can see it being sent in the maillog:
>> Nov 18 17:39:42 lists postfix/smtp[3953]: DBFB98C0011:
>> to=<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>,
>> relay=ims.washburnlaw.edu[198.252.9.211]:25, delay=0.11,
>> delays=0.03/0.02/0.05/0.01, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Message accepted
>> for delivery)
>
> Okay, so look for more lines like this in your postfix log, 
> specifically you're looking for lines with a high value in the 
> "delay=" field.

>
>> Now where and what am I looking for in what log.  When I look at;
>> /usr/local/mailman/logs/smtp I see stuff like:
>> Nov 18 17:52:09 2008 (2062) <49235563.9020007 at washburn.edu> smtp to
>> mailman for 1 recips, completed in 0.045 seconds
>
> That just tells you how long it took for Mailman to hand off the 
> message to postfix.  If there was a significant delay internal to 
> Mailman, it would show up here.  But everything you've said so far 
> indicates that the delays you're seeing may not be internal to 
> Mailman.  So, you need to look in the MTA logs, too.
>> Is this what I am suppose to be looking for?
>>
>> By the way, right now (probably because everyone's gone from work) mail
>> is getting delivered within 5 minutes or less.  Yet during lunchtime it
>> would be hours of a delay.  
>
> Maybe you are rate-limited by your ISP?  They only allow you to send 
> so many messages per hour, and with your mailing lists you easily 
> exceed those limits at lunchtime?
_
That rate-limiting would make sense because I am forwarding all the mail
to a relay which can only deliver 2-3 messages per second.
>
> That's a question you'll need to take to your ISP and have them answer 
> for you.
>

-- 
Jewel



From mdale at geniusmoon.com.au  Wed Nov 19 01:52:38 2008
From: mdale at geniusmoon.com.au (Mark Dale)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:52:38 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
Message-ID: <49236356.5030407@geniusmoon.com.au>


Hi All

In the archives, the URL to attachments is getting mangled.

Somehow an "=" gets inserted into the URL (see snippet below), and the
links returns "Private archive file not found".

If I remove the "=" from the URL, all is well.

Can anyone shed any light on this, and how I might correct things so the
URL appears correctly (without the "=") in the archive?

BTW. The attachments are travelling okay with the messages. It's just in
the archive that there is a problem.

cheers
Mark Dale


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: test.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 5929 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://myDomain.com/cgi-bin/mailman/private/myListname/attachments/200=
81119/d1fa80ed/test.pdf
-----

But this works:

http://myDomain.com/cgi-bin/mailman/private/myListname/attachments/20081119/d1fa80ed/test.pdf









From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov 19 04:09:57 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:09:57 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
In-Reply-To: <20081118213345.21EE51E4010@bag.python.org>
References: <20081117183300.A317DFA194@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
	<PC1870200811180913030859df1c299e@msapiro>
	<20081118213345.21EE51E4010@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <87tza4mmwq.fsf@xemacs.org>

Michael Welch writes:

 > So, I have a feature suggestion: Add an autoreply option for
 > -bounces incoming emails.

Executive summary: not likely to help, not likely to happen.

This is just going to annoy people who can't easily help themselves
(Outlook and Blackberry users, apparently).  You really don't want to
do that, even if it lightens your load of direct contact because they
get the autoreply.  The fact that they are using *broken* software[1]
cuts no ice with them; "everybody" uses Outlook, so the rest of us
should just shut up and cope.

It also creates "backscatter".  Spambots harvest those -bounces
addresses, and then your autoreply will go back to some forged sender,
who often enough is a real mailbox somewhere.  Guess who they will
think spammed them?  And they will be correct! in the sense that it
was your decision to set up an autoreply that is so easy to abuse.
(This is true of all autoreplies, by the way, which has been a big
headache for many list admins and the Mailman devs for years.  Search
the Mailman-Users archive for "backscatter".)


Footnotes: 
[1]  RFC 2822 specifies that Sender headers indicate the
administrative agent who handled the mail, as a secretary does for his
boss.  If there is a problem in transmission, a missing attachment for
example, then you contact the secretary and don't bother the boss,
right?  Replies discussing the content however are sent to the boss,
right?  Even if her secretary actually is previewing and prioritizing
the mail.  Email is the same.  Technical problems with the content go
to "Sender", and discussion of content goes to "Reply-To" (if it
exists) or "From".

In the case of email, the admin agent is typically a program, so this
distinction needs to be respected even more than in the case of a
human secretary.  Where the secretary would discard or reroute the
junk, the program isn't smart enough to do anything but forward to
you, and your time is infinitely more expensive than the program's.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov 19 04:17:51 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:17:51 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses
	our	spam filters
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811180942590671df1c291a@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811180931470515df1c2872@msapiro>
	<PC1870200811180942590671df1c291a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <87skpommjk.fsf@xemacs.org>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > >>That's probably not a great idea as ToUsenet comes pretty late in the
 > >>pipeline.
 > >
 > >ToUsenet is only involved in gating mail from the list to the
 > >newsgroup. Newsgroup to mailman is handled by cron/gate_news which
 > >drops messages directly in Mailman's incoming queue.
 > 
 > There is another issue. Without the fromusenet flag in the
 > metadata,

Sorry about the bizarre phrasing.  This is what I had in mind when I
mentioned ToUsenet.

 > I think the approach below would be better.
 > 
 > >As indicated in another reply, another approach would be to have
 > >gate_news run the message through the spam checks directly before
 > >queueing it.

As Brad points out, though, those checks are already done by the MTA,
and in fact may not even be implementable outside the MTA (if they're
implemented as milters, for example).

In general, there really is a tradeoff here.  Although Skip seems
happy enough, as I guess SpamBayes catches most (all?) of the spam his
system catches.

From skip at pobox.com  Wed Nov 19 04:21:30 2008
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:21:30 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses our
 spam filters
In-Reply-To: <87skpommjk.fsf@xemacs.org>
References: <PC1870200811180931470515df1c2872@msapiro>
	<PC1870200811180942590671df1c291a@msapiro> <87skpommjk.fsf@xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <18723.34362.344932.350445@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>


    Stephen> In general, there really is a tradeoff here.  Although Skip
    Stephen> seems happy enough, as I guess SpamBayes catches most (all?) of
    Stephen> the spam his system catches.

SpamBayes is one of the things that mail.python.org does for incoming mail.
Based on my own personal filters I suspect it would stop much of what is
currently leaking through to the list from usenet.  Adding a SpamBayes check
to gate-news to score the incoming usenet postings would be pretty trivial.

Skip


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov 19 04:26:45 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:26:45 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
In-Reply-To: <492359D0.70104@washburn.edu>
References: <49234FC4.7070008@washburn.edu>
	<PC1870200811181546090281530222a2@msapiro>
	<f91989fb397.397f91989fb@washburn.edu>
	<49235847.5060501@shub-internet.org> <492359D0.70104@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <87r658mm4q.fsf@xemacs.org>

Jewel writes:
 > Brad Knowles wrote:
 > > jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:
 > >
 > >> I am using Postfix and when I send a test to the mailman list, which I
 > >> am a member of I can see it being sent in the maillog:
 > >> Nov 18 17:39:42 lists postfix/smtp[3953]: DBFB98C0011:
 > >> to=<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>,
 > >> relay=ims.washburnlaw.edu[198.252.9.211]:25, delay=0.11,
 > >> delays=0.03/0.02/0.05/0.01, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Message accepted
 > >> for delivery)
 > >
 > > Okay, so look for more lines like this in your postfix log, 
 > > specifically you're looking for lines with a high value in the 
 > > "delay=" field.
 > _This is my postfix mail log - so if I see it was sent here like the 
 > above example doesn't that mean it has left my machine and it out of my 
 > control at that point?_

Yes.  What Brad said is to look for more like it with longer delays.
Something like

    grep 'delay=[1-9]' $POSTFIX_LOG

will catch really bad delays (> 1 second) for you.

 > That rate-limiting would make sense because I am forwarding all the mail 
 > to a relay which can only deliver 2-3 messages per second._

Ouch!


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Nov 19 05:32:49 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:32:49 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Incoming Mail not being processed?
In-Reply-To: <492359D0.70104@washburn.edu>
References: <49234FC4.7070008@washburn.edu>
	<PC1870200811181546090281530222a2@msapiro>
	<f91989fb397.397f91989fb@washburn.edu>
	<49235847.5060501@shub-internet.org> <492359D0.70104@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <492396F1.7050403@shub-internet.org>

on 11/18/08 6:12 PM, Jewel said:

> _This is my postfix mail log - so if I see it was sent here like the 
> above example doesn't that mean it has left my machine and it out of my 
> control at that point?_

For that one copy of that one message, yes -- it's been delivered.  And 
that delay only covers when the message comes into the postfix queue and 
when it is delivered from the postfix queue.  That doesn't take into 
account the amount of time that the message may have been sitting in the 
Mailman queue, but then we should be able to account for that in the 
Mailman logs.

But lots of messages showing up with a high value in the delay= 
parameter would clearly show that the problem is after Mailman, and 
would be an issue that needs to be resolved within postfix, or between 
postfix and your upstream server(s).

> That rate-limiting would make sense because I am forwarding all the mail 
> to a relay which can only deliver 2-3 messages per second._

That would do it.  You need to talk to your ISP.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Nov 19 05:43:11 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:43:11 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving lists without shell access
In-Reply-To: <001701c949de$c8043440$6300a8c0@jda.local>
References: <001701c949de$c8043440$6300a8c0@jda.local>
Message-ID: <4923995F.3070401@shub-internet.org>

on 11/18/08 6:36 PM, Scott Race said:

> Is there a way to move lists from one server to another without shell
> access?  I am able to download the archives from the admin interface,
> but don't have ssh access.... Thanks!

There's no way to import the archives without using the command-line 
interface.  Not unless you want to re-send those messages to the new 
mailing list from an external system.

The rest of the mailing list configuration may be something you can 
replicate by putting up one web admin page right next to the other and 
then doing some cutting and pasting, but it may be a pain-in-the-butt.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Nov 19 05:53:21 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:53:21 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <49236356.5030407@geniusmoon.com.au>
References: <49236356.5030407@geniusmoon.com.au>
Message-ID: <49239BC1.5000605@shub-internet.org>

on 11/18/08 6:52 PM, Mark Dale said:

> Somehow an "=" gets inserted into the URL (see snippet below), and the
> links returns "Private archive file not found".

That's URL-encoded line folding that is not being properly interpreted 
by the recipient.

> If I remove the "=" from the URL, all is well.
> 
> Can anyone shed any light on this, and how I might correct things so the
> URL appears correctly (without the "=") in the archive?

Good question.  I'm not sure that this problem can be fixed, short of 
fixing the clients to properly understand URL-encoded line folding.

But I do hold out hope that Mark Sapiro or one of the other core 
developers can prove me wrong.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 19 05:58:30 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:58:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <49236356.5030407@geniusmoon.com.au>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811182058300562c4927e90@msapiro>

Mark Dale wrote:
>
>In the archives, the URL to attachments is getting mangled.
>
>Somehow an "=" gets inserted into the URL (see snippet below), and the
>links returns "Private archive file not found".
>
>If I remove the "=" from the URL, all is well.
>
>Can anyone shed any light on this, and how I might correct things so the
>URL appears correctly (without the "=") in the archive?
>
>BTW. The attachments are travelling okay with the messages. It's just in
>the archive that there is a problem.
>
>cheers
>Mark Dale
>
>
>-------------- next part --------------
>A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>Name: test.pdf
>Type: application/pdf
>Size: 5929 bytes
>Desc: not available
>Url :
>http://myDomain.com/cgi-bin/mailman/private/myListname/attachments/200=
>81119/d1fa80ed/test.pdf


This appears to be a problem with encoding/decoding of quoted-printable.

What Mailman version is this?

If Mailman is recent enough to have it, is Non-digest options ->
scrub-nondigest Yes or No? (your "The attachments are travelling okay
with the messages" implies no, but just checking.)

Is your list digestable and if so, are the links in the "plain" digest
OK or are they like the archive?

Does this happen with every attachment, or only in some messages?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mdale at geniusmoon.com.au  Wed Nov 19 06:56:36 2008
From: mdale at geniusmoon.com.au (Mark Dale)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:56:36 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811182058300562c4927e90@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811182058300562c4927e90@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4923AA94.8010507@geniusmoon.com.au>

Hi Mark

In answer to your questions ...

I am using Mailman version: 2.1.5

Subscribers can choose digest if they want.

The link is broken in the digest messages, just like in the archive.

The broken link happens for every PDF file, even though the PDF arrives
with the email. (Doesn't arrive in the digest, just a broken link)

The link is almost okay, it's just the "=" sign that gets inserted that
messes things up.

If it is a Word.doc that gets attached, no URL appears at all in the
archive, not is there even a "scrubbed" message. Also, Word.doc files
don't even arrive with the email.

cheers

MArk Dale


Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Mark Dale wrote:
>> In the archives, the URL to attachments is getting mangled.
>>
>> Somehow an "=" gets inserted into the URL (see snippet below), and the
>> links returns "Private archive file not found".
>>
>> If I remove the "=" from the URL, all is well.
>>
>> Can anyone shed any light on this, and how I might correct things so the
>> URL appears correctly (without the "=") in the archive?
>>
>> BTW. The attachments are travelling okay with the messages. It's just in
>> the archive that there is a problem.
>>
>> cheers
>> Mark Dale
>>
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>> Name: test.pdf
>> Type: application/pdf
>> Size: 5929 bytes
>> Desc: not available
>> Url :
>> http://myDomain.com/cgi-bin/mailman/private/myListname/attachments/200=
>> 81119/d1fa80ed/test.pdf
> 
> 
> This appears to be a problem with encoding/decoding of quoted-printable.
> 
> What Mailman version is this?
> 
> If Mailman is recent enough to have it, is Non-digest options ->
> scrub-nondigest Yes or No? (your "The attachments are travelling okay
> with the messages" implies no, but just checking.)
> 
> Is your list digestable and if so, are the links in the "plain" digest
> OK or are they like the archive?
> 
> Does this happen with every attachment, or only in some messages?
> 

-- 


--------------------------------------
Mark Dale
GeniusMoon
Tel: 02 6100 3131
Fax: 02 6103 9130
Mob: 0403 831 748
email: mdale at geniusmoon.com.au
http://www.geniusmoon.com.au
--------------------------------------




From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Tue Nov 18 18:47:30 2008
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:47:30 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses
	our	spam filters
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811180942590671df1c291a@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811180931470515df1c2872@msapiro>
	<PC1870200811180942590671df1c291a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <D76869AD7DF0F742866D1573A514306101EE6FFE83@ELROND.hodgsonfamily.org>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>As indicated in another reply, another approach would be to have
>gate_news run the message through the spam checks directly before
>queueing it.

Another way could be to have a moderated group, with the moderation address set to the Mailman list post address, though this has its own problems.

The issue with running the spam checks is that the spam processor may be on a different machine to the host running the Mailman.

Andrew.

From smurphy at calarts.edu  Tue Nov 18 21:10:15 2008
From: smurphy at calarts.edu (Sean Murphy)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:10:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Site Admin email Problem
Message-ID: <49232127.7060607@calarts.edu>

Mailman used to send me an email as the "site admin" that a new list has 
been created.  I use the web interface to create new lists.  This email 
had the aliases I needed to add to the /etc/mail/aliases file in the 
body of the email.   I have upgraded Mailman months ago but didn't 
notice that I had not been receiving this until now as the lists were 
already setup.

I know I can run the genaliases command to get the same output but I 
fear I am not seeing all of the mailman site admin email.

Is the email sent from a python script to an alias? is it specified in a 
config file?

From tech at craftbits.com  Tue Nov 18 10:59:15 2008
From: tech at craftbits.com (Vikram Goyal)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:59:15 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with sending messages to list
Message-ID: <E785E121EABB428A9F2E226EBC878160@VikramXPS>

Hi there,

 

I manage three announcement only lists. I had some issues with the server
they were running on, because of which, I had to restart the server.
However, since starting the server, I can't seem to be able to send any
mails to any of the three lists.

 

I checked the mail logs (/var/log/maillog), and the following entry was
found for a test message send to the test list:

 

"Nov 18 01:29:51 ip-XXXXX sendmail[13901]: mAI8ToHD013890:
to="|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post test", ctladdr=<test@****.com>
(8/0), delay=00:00:01, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=prog, pri=33119, dsn=2.0.0,
stat=Sent"

 

To me, this means that the mail was sent to the mailman process. (I have
taken out the actual ip address and the domain for privacy reasons).

 

So, why would the users on the test list not get the messages? 

 

Also, which log messages should I look for and rely on? The var/log/maillog
or the log messages in the mailman directory?

 

Any help appreciated.

 

Regards,

Vikram Goyal

 


From donald.teed at gmail.com  Wed Nov 19 16:06:22 2008
From: donald.teed at gmail.com (D G Teed)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:06:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Finding all unmoderated users in a list
Message-ID: <dd4da0390811190706h56326cb0i5eb2893c67a2fc6f@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

We have some moderated lists with thousands of members
and a handful of people are appointed rights to post to it
(who are also members).

Periodically we don't know who has that posting
right, and someone asks for a list of those who can post.
How can this be queried?

--Donald

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 19 16:23:05 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:23:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Site Admin email Problem
In-Reply-To: <49232127.7060607@calarts.edu>
Message-ID: <PC187020081119072305042191ea702a@msapiro>

Sean Murphy wrote:

>Mailman used to send me an email as the "site admin" that a new list has 
>been created.  I use the web interface to create new lists.  This email 
>had the aliases I needed to add to the /etc/mail/aliases file in the 
>body of the email.   I have upgraded Mailman months ago but didn't 
>notice that I had not been receiving this until now as the lists were 
>already setup.
>
>I know I can run the genaliases command to get the same output but I 
>fear I am not seeing all of the mailman site admin email.
>
>Is the email sent from a python script to an alias? is it specified in a 
>config file?


This mail is only sent if MTA = 'Manual'. If you have MTA = 'Postfix'
or MTA = None in mm_cfg.py, no aliases mail will be sent.

When sent, the mail is sent to mailman-owner at ... (or whatever the name
of the site list is). You can test if this mail is deliverable by just
mailing anything to that address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 19 16:28:10 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:28:10 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <4923AA94.8010507@geniusmoon.com.au>
Message-ID: <PC187020081119072810004602ccedf8@msapiro>

Mark Dale wrote:
>
>In answer to your questions ...
>
>I am using Mailman version: 2.1.5
>
>Subscribers can choose digest if they want.
>
>The link is broken in the digest messages, just like in the archive.
>
>The broken link happens for every PDF file, even though the PDF arrives
>with the email. (Doesn't arrive in the digest, just a broken link)
>
>The link is almost okay, it's just the "=" sign that gets inserted that
>messes things up.


There have been many changes in Scrubber.py (the module which does
this) since 2.1.5. I will look into it, but I don't know if I will be
able to duplicate the problem.


>If it is a Word.doc that gets attached, no URL appears at all in the
>archive, not is there even a "scrubbed" message. Also, Word.doc files
>don't even arrive with the email.


Because these attachments are removed by content filtering before the
message is archived and delivered.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 19 16:37:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:37:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with sending messages to list
In-Reply-To: <E785E121EABB428A9F2E226EBC878160@VikramXPS>
Message-ID: <PC187020081119073712084342167117@msapiro>

Vikram Goyal wrote:
>
>I manage three announcement only lists. I had some issues with the server
>they were running on, because of which, I had to restart the server.
>However, since starting the server, I can't seem to be able to send any
>mails to any of the three lists.
>
> 
>
>I checked the mail logs (/var/log/maillog), and the following entry was
>found for a test message send to the test list:
>
> 
>
>"Nov 18 01:29:51 ip-XXXXX sendmail[13901]: mAI8ToHD013890:
>to="|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post test", ctladdr=<test@****.com>
>(8/0), delay=00:00:01, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=prog, pri=33119, dsn=2.0.0,
>stat=Sent"
>
> 
>
>To me, this means that the mail was sent to the mailman process. (I have
>taken out the actual ip address and the domain for privacy reasons).


It means the mail was delivered to Mailman's mail wrapper which
presumably passed it to to Mailman's 'post' script which in turn would
place it in Mailman's in/ queue.


>So, why would the users on the test list not get the messages? 


Ith most likely reason is you don't have an init script to start
mailman so mailman isn't running and all the messages are just sitting
in Mailman's in/ queue.

You could look at the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9> for other
possibilities.


>Also, which log messages should I look for and rely on? The var/log/maillog
>or the log messages in the mailman directory?


Both, since the tell you about different steps in the process.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Nov 19 19:41:19 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:41:19 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One private archive not appearing online
Message-ID: <f989cec95271.5271f989cec9@washburn.edu>

I am wanting to rebuild an archive but when I issue the following
command either as mailman or root:

bin/arch --wipe mylist
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist.mbox/mylist.mbox

I get the following error:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./arch", line 200, in ?
    main()
  File "./arch", line 177, in main
    shutil.rmtree(mlist.archive_dir())
  File "/usr/lib/python2.4/shutil.py", line 155, in rmtree
    onerror(os.listdir, path, sys.exc_info())
  File "/usr/lib/python2.4/shutil.py", line 153, in rmtree
    names = os.listdir(path)
OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
'/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist'

I believe this one archive has not been working for a very long time. 
The permissions are:
drwxrwsr-x   2 mailman mailman   4096 Nov 19 12:11 .
drwxrws--x 200 mailman mailman  12288 Nov 19 12:14 ..
-rw-rw-r--   1 mailman mailman 502357 Sep  1 04:00 mylist

When I run "bin/check_perms -f" it finds no problems.

Any other suggestions?

Jewel

From donald.teed at gmail.com  Wed Nov 19 21:38:50 2008
From: donald.teed at gmail.com (D G Teed)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:38:50 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Finding all unmoderated users in a list
In-Reply-To: <15BC509E-BEE9-40A3-B537-FEF242904F57@sandiego.edu>
References: <dd4da0390811190706h56326cb0i5eb2893c67a2fc6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<15BC509E-BEE9-40A3-B537-FEF242904F57@sandiego.edu>
Message-ID: <dd4da0390811191238j564d008dle7b78aae9070d05@mail.gmail.com>

Here is a solution I received from Jerry Stratton using withlist command
from the command line...

Create a file to use with "withlist".

==============snip=========================
from Mailman import mm_cfg
def unmoderated(mlist):
       memberCount = 0
       for member in mlist.getMembers():
               if not mlist.getMemberOption(member, mm_cfg.Moderate):
                       print member
                       memberCount = memberCount + 1

       print "Unmoderated members found:", memberCount
==============snip=========================

If this is called "queries.py", then you can use the following command to
list all unmoderated members of a mailing list:

withlist -r queries.unmoderated LISTNAME

Note that the file queries.py must be located in the home directory
of mailman (not in bin).

This is exactly what I needed.  Thanks to Jerry for this solution.

--Donald

From mdale at geniusmoon.com.au  Wed Nov 19 22:05:42 2008
From: mdale at geniusmoon.com.au (Mark Dale)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:05:42 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081119072810004602ccedf8@msapiro>
References: <PC187020081119072810004602ccedf8@msapiro>
Message-ID: <49247FA6.8040901@geniusmoon.com.au>



> There have been many changes in Scrubber.py (the module which does
> this) since 2.1.5. I will look into it, but I don't know if I will be
> able to duplicate the problem.

For what it's worth Mark, I copied a Scrubber.py from a Version 2.19 on
the wild chance that it might do some good - but as was to be expected,
no magic occurred.

Here's hoping you do find a way to duplicate the problem. Upgrading this
installation would be like changing a flat tyre on a moving car.


>> If it is a Word.doc that gets attached, no URL appears at all in the
>> archive, not is there even a "scrubbed" message. Also, Word.doc files
>> don't even arrive with the email.


> Because these attachments are removed by content filtering before the
> message is archived and delivered.

Understood. Thanks.



cheers
Mark Dale
-- 





From lists at openenterprise.ca  Wed Nov 19 22:24:28 2008
From: lists at openenterprise.ca (Johnny Stork)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:24:28 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives to a new list?
Message-ID: <4924840C.4000901@openenterprise.ca>


I have been running a mailing list which now requires a name change. I 
have created the new list and so was wondering if there is some way to 
move all the old archives to the new list? They are on the same 
server/domain, but have different names now?



-- 
Johnny Stork
Open Enterprise Solutions
"Empowering Business With Open Solutions"

http://www.openenterprise.ca


From lists at openenterprise.ca  Wed Nov 19 22:26:28 2008
From: lists at openenterprise.ca (Johnny Stork)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:26:28 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using an AUP with Mailman?
Message-ID: <49248484.9010305@openenterprise.ca>

Other than placing a link on the mailing list signup page to an 
"Acceptable Use Policy" is there any way to "force" the use of such a 
policy before people can sign up for a mailing list in mailman? What I 
mean by "force" is something where they need to at least scroll down to 
the bottom of an AUP and check a box that they have read it before they 
can submit their signup request.


-- 
Johnny Stork
Open Enterprise Solutions
"Empowering Business With Open Solutions"

http://www.openenterprise.ca


From measl at mfn.org  Thu Nov 20 00:44:28 2008
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:44:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The Mysterious Disappearing Disk Space (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081118145317075046a670bf@msapiro>
References: <PC187020081118145317075046a670bf@msapiro>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0811191714100.1455@mx1.mfn.org>


On Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> J.A. Terranson wrote:
> >
> >	I have looked through the archives for something similar to my 
> >issue, and I noticed that by searching on "disk full", I get similar 
> >reports beginning in roughly July of 08.
> >
> >	As with these other reports, I have noticed *tremendous* 
> >disappearing space.  When I tried to find the actual files, I was 
> >unsuccessful.  Interestingly, if I stop mailman and then restart it, the 
> >"missing" space miraculously reappears! 
> 
> 
> Is this Solaris? If so, see the thread beginning at
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-July/062359.html>
> which is about an alleged memory leak.

FreeBSD 6.3, and the issue in the above thread doesn't look like the same 
thing.

> If you're running out of disk, and restarting the processes solves it,
> it may be swap space that's eating up the disk.

I considered this, however swap is simply not being used at any time.  I 
put up a cron job to monitor, and swap use is literally zero all the way 
up to the crash for lack of space.  Honestly, it *feels* like some huge 
log file somewhere, but I can find no viable explanation for it.  This is 
a single partitioned box, with a single dedicated user (running 4 mailman 
lists and a few websites).  Using du I see space being eaten, but no 
indication as to where.   I see /usr and /var "growing", but looking into 
them shows no file(s) that could account for the amount of missing space.

 
> >	So, now that the background is over with, here's where I find 
> >myself (besides just looking stupid):
> >
> >(1) Yesterday I enabled VERP, and it appeared to be working well,  At the 
> >time I turned on VERP, I had around 5gb of free space (which would take 
> >about two weeks to "disappear" before VERP).
> 
> 
> 5gb of free disk space doesn't seem like a lot these days.

Agreed.  But then, they arent doing much either.

 
> >(2) Around 2pm today, the disk was full, and mailman died.
> 
> 
> Enabling VERP might cause the MTA to use a lot more queue space, but I
> don't see that it would affect Mailman much.

The only difference was in the rate at which the "loss" accrued.  Roughly 
a 6x increase.

 
> >(3) My inkling of something being wrong was this on the web interface:
> >
> >  "Bug in Mailman version 2.1.11rc2
> >
> >  We're sorry, we hit a bug!
> >
> >  Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of 
> >  traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, 
> >  but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs. "
> >
> >(4) Upon looking at the system in response to the above missive, I checked 
> >and saw the system ws out of space again.  I did what I always do - shut 
> >down mailman (which usually drops ~5gb of "missing" space, and then 
> >restart it.  Everything before today has come up roses doing this.
> 
> 
> So are you saying that this time you didn't recover any disk space or
> just that the web error didn't go away. If the latter, it seems likely
> that the disk space error caused a config.pck file to be corrupted and
> that is the cause of the recurrent "bug". What is the traceback from
> the most recent of these from the error log?

I apologize for the lack of clarity.  Im saying that the space did come 
back, as always, but this time was unique in throwing up this web message.  
All of the mailman core functionality appeared to be running normally 
(lots of traffic back and forth), but the web UI was dead.


> >(5) There is nothing in any of the logs that indicate why this message is 
> >continuing to poke fun at me.
> 
> There almost certainly is something in Mailman's error log unless the
> logfile just can't be grown to accommodate the message.

No, there really isn't.  I have combed through all of them (bounce, error, 
mischeif, post qrunner, smtp & failure, subscribe and vette.  Did I miss 
anything?), with no sign of anything being wrong.  

I have several other mailman systems, and I have always seen a traceback 
or slew of messages when something went south, but nothing here.  Also, of 
note, this is the only mailman with the disappearing disk issue.  My other 
boxen are all running *really* old versions, and this new customer build 
is doubling as my canary:  so far, I see BIG improvements in throughput, 
but this disk thing has me crazy.  If I stop mailman when the drive hits 
99%, I instantly get my 5gb back.  It feels like Im writing a file that I 
cannot see, but I dont think this is physically possible (anyone know 
otherwise?).

I spent a few hours mucking around with the pickles trying to figure what 
broke, and finally gave up due to screaming users: I rebuilt.  The new 
build acts *just* like the last one (the reason for the delay in answering 
your kind reply was to see if the rebuild would get rid of this).  Ive 
lost about a gig over 24 hours, and I have NO idea where its going.  I 
stopped the job while writing this paragraph just to double check, and 
yes, I get it all back when the job is terminated.  Very odd indeed.

Im not comfy with debuggers, so Im at the mercy of others.

Have I missed any log files?  Is there somewhere specific I should be 
looking?  Is there some way to (easily) increase logging details to try 
and track this down?

The answers to this and other important questions await.  On the next 
episode of MailSoap. <cue jingle>
 
Seriously though, I appreciate your response, and the time spent on this.

All the best,

//Alif

-- 
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin_at_mfn.org
0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother

From skip at pobox.com  Thu Nov 20 04:18:53 2008
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:18:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Patch available for review - SpamBayes support in
	gate_news
Message-ID: <18724.55069.957515.470839@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>

I worked up a straightforward patch for gate_news which adds SpamBayes
support to that program.  This allows incoming Usenet news postings to be
checked for spam before foisting them off on unsuspecting mailing list
folks.

    https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/300176

I've yet to figure out where gate_news is documented.  Once I have I'll
update that manual and upload a patch.

Feedback is appreciated.  After a couple extra sets of eyeballs have been
aimed at it I will work with the python.org postmasters to start testing it
there.

-- 
Skip Montanaro - skip at pobox.com - http://smontanaro.dyndns.org/

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Nov 20 04:26:24 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:26:24 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The Mysterious Disappearing Disk Space (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0811191714100.1455@mx1.mfn.org>
References: <PC187020081118145317075046a670bf@msapiro>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0811191714100.1455@mx1.mfn.org>
Message-ID: <871vx7m61r.fsf@xemacs.org>

J.A. Terranson writes:

 > It feels like Im writing a file that I cannot see, but I dont think
 > this is physically possible (anyone know otherwise?).

Oh, indeed it is possible, and happens with log files all the time.
All you need to do is start a process that doesn't close its logfile
until it exits, then rm the logfile.  A variant of this technique is
also used to create "secure" scratch files (what other programs can't
see, they can't touch).

In Unix file system semantics, rm simply changes the entry in the
directory to make the file inaccessible, but the inode where all the
space allocation details are still exists, and the process with the
open file descriptor can continue writing to it.  However, when the
process exits, the file descriptor is close, the inode and the space
become garbage, and they get freed.

 > Have I missed any log files?  Is there somewhere specific I should be 
 > looking?  Is there some way to (easily) increase logging details to try 
 > and track this down?

Unlikely.  A more direct approach is lsof ("list open files").
Mailman has a bunch of processes, though, so make sure you've
identified the one you need to look at.  You want the -c (check
processes running certain command names) or -p (check processes for
certain PIDs) options.  Here's a look at my shell on Mac OS X:

chibi:SeminarSEA steve$ lsof -p 3771
COMMAND  PID  USER   FD   TYPE DEVICE SIZE/OFF     NODE NAME
bash    3771 steve  cwd   VDIR   14,2      952 40850782 /Users/steve/Work/Teaching/MBA/SeminarSEA
bash    3771 steve  txt   VREG   14,2   581636 10221991 /bin/bash
bash    3771 steve  txt   VREG   14,2  1797576 21766582 /usr/lib/dyld
bash    3771 steve  txt   VREG   14,2  4402196 39746339 /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib
bash    3771 steve  txt   VREG   14,2   304580 39764872 /usr/lib/libncurses.5.4.dylib
bash    3771 steve    0u  VCHR    4,6  0t72917 42347780 /dev/ttyp6
bash    3771 steve    1u  VCHR    4,6  0t72917 42347780 /dev/ttyp6
bash    3771 steve    2u  VCHR    4,6  0t72917 42347780 /dev/ttyp6
bash    3771 steve  255u  VCHR    4,6  0t72917 42347780 /dev/ttyp6

In the FD column, "cwd" and "txt" are files that have been read into
the process space in some sense; they are not subject to IO.  The
numerical FDs are the ones of interest; here they are all just the
attached TTY (0, 1, and 2 are stdin, stdout, and stderr, of course).
bash apparently isn't writing or reading any regular files at the
moment.

Although Mac OS X uses the Mach microkernel, userland is based on
FreeBSD, so Your Mileage Should Not Vary (much).

I haven't actually looked at a file with no links in maybe a decade
(over precisely the issue I started with, I needed to free up space
fast so I nuked an unimportant log file ... but the process hadn't
closed it so I didn't get any space back :-P), so I'm not sure exactly
what you're looking for.  But I bet it sticks out like a sore
thumb. ;-)  I suppose there may be a way to look at its content
(perhaps in gdb?) which might help to identify what is going on.

From gaa at ulticom.com  Thu Nov 20 03:58:35 2008
From: gaa at ulticom.com (Gary Algier)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:58:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The Mysterious Disappearing Disk Space (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0811191714100.1455@mx1.mfn.org>
References: <PC187020081118145317075046a670bf@msapiro>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0811191714100.1455@mx1.mfn.org>
Message-ID: <4924D25B.8050704@ulticom.com>

J.A. Terranson wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
>> J.A. Terranson wrote:
>>> 	I have looked through the archives for something similar to my 
>>> issue, and I noticed that by searching on "disk full", I get similar 
>>> reports beginning in roughly July of 08.
>>>
>>> 	As with these other reports, I have noticed *tremendous* 
>>> disappearing space.  When I tried to find the actual files, I was 
>>> unsuccessful.  Interestingly, if I stop mailman and then restart it, the 
>>> "missing" space miraculously reappears! 
>>
>> Is this Solaris? If so, see the thread beginning at
>> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-July/062359.html>
>> which is about an alleged memory leak.
> 
> FreeBSD 6.3, and the issue in the above thread doesn't look like the same 
> thing.
> 
>> If you're running out of disk, and restarting the processes solves it,
>> it may be swap space that's eating up the disk.
> 
> I considered this, however swap is simply not being used at any time.  I 
> put up a cron job to monitor, and swap use is literally zero all the way 
> up to the crash for lack of space.  Honestly, it *feels* like some huge 
> log file somewhere, but I can find no viable explanation for it.  This is 
> a single partitioned box, with a single dedicated user (running 4 mailman 
> lists and a few websites).  Using du I see space being eaten, but no 
> indication as to where.   I see /usr and /var "growing", but looking into 
> them shows no file(s) that could account for the amount of missing space.
> 
>  
>>> 	So, now that the background is over with, here's where I find 
>>> myself (besides just looking stupid):
>>>
>>> (1) Yesterday I enabled VERP, and it appeared to be working well,  At the 
>>> time I turned on VERP, I had around 5gb of free space (which would take 
>>> about two weeks to "disappear" before VERP).
>>
>> 5gb of free disk space doesn't seem like a lot these days.
> 
> Agreed.  But then, they arent doing much either.
> 
>  
>>> (2) Around 2pm today, the disk was full, and mailman died.
>>
>> Enabling VERP might cause the MTA to use a lot more queue space, but I
>> don't see that it would affect Mailman much.
> 
> The only difference was in the rate at which the "loss" accrued.  Roughly 
> a 6x increase.
> 
>  
>>> (3) My inkling of something being wrong was this on the web interface:
>>>
>>>  "Bug in Mailman version 2.1.11rc2
>>>
>>>  We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>>>
>>>  Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of 
>>>  traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, 
>>>  but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs. "
>>>
>>> (4) Upon looking at the system in response to the above missive, I checked 
>>> and saw the system ws out of space again.  I did what I always do - shut 
>>> down mailman (which usually drops ~5gb of "missing" space, and then 
>>> restart it.  Everything before today has come up roses doing this.
>>
>> So are you saying that this time you didn't recover any disk space or
>> just that the web error didn't go away. If the latter, it seems likely
>> that the disk space error caused a config.pck file to be corrupted and
>> that is the cause of the recurrent "bug". What is the traceback from
>> the most recent of these from the error log?
> 
> I apologize for the lack of clarity.  Im saying that the space did come 
> back, as always, but this time was unique in throwing up this web message.  
> All of the mailman core functionality appeared to be running normally 
> (lots of traffic back and forth), but the web UI was dead.
> 
> 
>>> (5) There is nothing in any of the logs that indicate why this message is 
>>> continuing to poke fun at me.
>> There almost certainly is something in Mailman's error log unless the
>> logfile just can't be grown to accommodate the message.
> 
> No, there really isn't.  I have combed through all of them (bounce, error, 
> mischeif, post qrunner, smtp & failure, subscribe and vette.  Did I miss 
> anything?), with no sign of anything being wrong.  
> 
> I have several other mailman systems, and I have always seen a traceback 
> or slew of messages when something went south, but nothing here.  Also, of 
> note, this is the only mailman with the disappearing disk issue.  My other 
> boxen are all running *really* old versions, and this new customer build 
> is doubling as my canary:  so far, I see BIG improvements in throughput, 
> but this disk thing has me crazy.  If I stop mailman when the drive hits 
> 99%, I instantly get my 5gb back.  It feels like Im writing a file that I 
> cannot see, but I dont think this is physically possible (anyone know 
> otherwise?).

Yes, this is very possible:
     1. open a file.
     2. write data to it.
     3. delete it
if the file is not closed, the space will still be in use, but there
won't be any entry in the parent directory for it.  You can test for
this by cd-ing to the base of the file system which is running out of
space.  Run "du -dks .", then "df -k .".  The two usage numbers should
be the same, within a few k.  If different, then the used space is not
reflected in any directory.

If this is the case, you may be able to find out which process has the
open, unlinked file using "lsof".  Run it as "lsof -s -p PID" once for
each Mailman process.  The offender should report open files that
either it can't resolve the name or it will show a name that does
not exist.  The flag "-s" tells it to report the size.  This may help
identify a large file.  The ability of lsof to report the name of
open files may very by OS, however.

Rereading the man page for lsof, I just noticed the "+L" option.
Using "+aL1" (that is plus aye ell one) causes it to select unlinked
open files.  Perhaps this will help.

I hope this will help ID which process, at least.  Perhaps that will
give clues.

> 
> I spent a few hours mucking around with the pickles trying to figure what 
> broke, and finally gave up due to screaming users: I rebuilt.  The new 
> build acts *just* like the last one (the reason for the delay in answering 
> your kind reply was to see if the rebuild would get rid of this).  Ive 
> lost about a gig over 24 hours, and I have NO idea where its going.  I 
> stopped the job while writing this paragraph just to double check, and 
> yes, I get it all back when the job is terminated.  Very odd indeed.
> 
> Im not comfy with debuggers, so Im at the mercy of others.
> 
> Have I missed any log files?  Is there somewhere specific I should be 
> looking?  Is there some way to (easily) increase logging details to try 
> and track this down?
> 
> The answers to this and other important questions await.  On the next 
> episode of MailSoap. <cue jingle>
>  
> Seriously though, I appreciate your response, and the time spent on this.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> //Alif
> 


-- 
Gary Algier, WB2FWZ          gaa at ulticom.com         +1 856 787 2758
Ulticom Inc., 1020 Briggs Rd, Mt. Laurel, NJ 08054  Fax:+1 856 866 2033

Nielsen's First Law of Computer Manuals:
     People don't read documentation voluntarily.

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 20 04:35:56 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:35:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Finding all unmoderated users in a list
In-Reply-To: <dd4da0390811191238j564d008dle7b78aae9070d05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811191935560718dc9ca5c6@msapiro>

D G Teed wrote:
>
>If this is called "queries.py", then you can use the following command to
>list all unmoderated members of a mailing list:
>
>withlist -r queries.unmoderated LISTNAME
>
>Note that the file queries.py must be located in the home directory
>of mailman (not in bin).


The above statement is not completely correct. It is true that if
queries.py is located in Mailman's home directory, it will work, but
it will also work if it is in the directory containing withlist
(normally Mailman's bin directory).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From measl at mfn.org  Thu Nov 20 06:07:47 2008
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 23:07:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The Mysterious Disappearing Disk Space (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <4924D25B.8050704@ulticom.com>
References: <PC187020081118145317075046a670bf@msapiro>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0811191714100.1455@mx1.mfn.org>
	<4924D25B.8050704@ulticom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0811192258340.1455@mx1.mfn.org>


A quick note to all three of you who responded with the lsof suggestion.

Thank you!  The first time I saw the lsof suggestion I wanted to kick 
myself in the back of the head!  It's been *so* long since I've had any 
need, that I had simply forgotten all about it.  It appears that it is no 
longer even part of the FreeBSD standard distribution anymore (I had to go 
fetch, although the last time I remember using lsof - ~20009ish or so - I 
am pretty sure it was already present and ready for service)...

I will be mucking with it tonight and I'll let everyone know what I find.

One last note, to everyone:  I always cringe when I have to break down and 
send out a "help" to a support list such as this, as so many of them will 
land you more "RTFM and come back when you find it!" than they civil 
replies.  This has been an inspiring experience - there is yet hope for 
the Intarwebs :-)

Thanks again, and I'll be back in a few days (or less).

//Alif

-- 
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin_at_mfn.org
0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 20 07:32:30 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:32:30 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail delivery not consistent and very slow
In-Reply-To: <49230602.4060209@washburn.edu>
References: <49230602.4060209@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <4925047E.4040702@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/18/2008 12:14 PM, Jewel wrote:
> *My smtp-failure and error logs are not helping me determine what's 
> wrong. Whenever I post a test to any list so far it always gets 
> delivered. But I have a few users who said they have tried several times 
> and don't see anything.  I had one woman try again this morning and can 
> see it on the archive but not in my email -but other postings have been 
> successful!!
> 
> Please help me.  I have several members upset about the delay or lack of 
> delivery and I can't find out what's going on.

Do your mail logs show messages leaving the mailing list going to the 
users that are claiming to have not received the message(s)?  If the 
messages do show up in your mail logs, then the problem is likely not 
with Mailman.  If the messages are not making it to your mail logs, then 
the problem probably is with Mailman.




Grant. . . .

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 20 07:34:48 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:34:48 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail delivery not consistent and very slow
In-Reply-To: <49232108.8070204@washburn.edu>
References: <CAEFIEOOGMCKMBLEKCFNAEBOEMAA.ed@justbrits.com>
	<49232108.8070204@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <49250508.3020806@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/18/2008 02:09 PM, Jewel wrote:
> I know it's not a gmail problem because it's happening with so many 
> lists. I did notice that my CPU is almost always at 100% due to python - 
> don't know why.  I know my machine is spitting out lots of mail but 
> cannot figure out what there is such a delay.

With out knowing if messages are making it from Mailman to your MTA I 
can't say for sure, but it may be that your server's load average is too 
high and your MTA is refusing to accept new messages.



Grant. . . .

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 20 07:54:22 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:54:22 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses our
 spam filters
In-Reply-To: <18722.20646.44808.370222@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
References: <18722.20646.44808.370222@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
Message-ID: <4925099E.8080109@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/17/2008 11:20 PM, skip at pobox.com wrote:
> I still haven't figured out quite how to solve the problem.  In 
> theory we could use some other tool to perform the gateway operation. 
> Instead of passing Usenet postings directly to Mailman it would mail 
> them to python-list at python.org where they would get the spam filter 
> treatment before Mailman sees them.  I'm still thinking about the 
> full ramifications of that.  It might be easier to get Mailman's 
> news-to-mail gateway to mail incoming Usenet messages to the list 
> address instead of directly distributing them to the subscribers 
> though.  I don't believe Mailman does that out of the box (but I 
> would love to be wrong here).  Has anyone tried implementing that? 
> If so, got a patch or a recipe for how to configure Mailman to 
> operate this way?

Few follow up questions:

1)  Will someone please provide the Path: header for a number (3 - 8) of 
the spam messages?  I suspect that the messages are originating from 
googlegroups.com which is /notorious/ for spam.

2)  Does gate_news have the ability to filter (gateway or not) messages 
based on the contents of the Path: header in the Usenet message?

3)  Is it possible to have gate_news call some of the other freely 
available Usenet spam filters that already exist?  Why re-invent the 
wheel if we can hook in to already existing filters on the Usenet side.



Grant. . . .

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 20 08:04:54 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:04:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <49236356.5030407@geniusmoon.com.au>
References: <49236356.5030407@geniusmoon.com.au>
Message-ID: <49250C16.2020007@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/18/2008 06:52 PM, Mark Dale wrote:
> Somehow an "=" gets inserted into the URL (see snippet below), and 
> the links returns "Private archive file not found".

*nod*

If I recall correctly when "quoted=printable" encoding is used, the "=" 
at the end of the line by its self is an indication to the receiving MUA 
that the line is suppose to be unwrapped.  I.e. remove the "=" from the 
end of the "...attachments/200" line and add the "81119..." line to the end.

However if the quoted=printable MIME encoding is broken, things like 
this will happen.

Will you please forward me one of the problem messages (as an attachment 
because I need to see the message source) and I will verify this.

> If I remove the "=" from the URL, all is well.

*nod*  This is as I would expect.

Actually I bet that you are removing the "=" and adding the subsequent 
line to the end of the URL, which is what quoted=printable is suppose to 
do for you.

> Can anyone shed any light on this, and how I might correct things so 
> the URL appears correctly (without the "=") in the archive?

I think this is probably another small bug somewhere in Mailman in how 
it handles / folds lines of text.  Format=flowed (my preference) suffers 
equally in older versions of Mailman.

> http://myDomain.com/cgi-bin/mailman/private/myListname/attachments/200=
> 81119/d1fa80ed/test.pdf

> But this works:
> 
> http://myDomain.com/cgi-bin/mailman/private/myListname/attachments/20081119/d1fa80ed/test.pdf

*nod*



Grant. . . .

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 20 08:06:48 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:06:48 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using an AUP with Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <49248484.9010305@openenterprise.ca>
References: <49248484.9010305@openenterprise.ca>
Message-ID: <49250C88.1000701@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/19/2008 03:26 PM, Johnny Stork wrote:
> Other than placing a link on the mailing list signup page to an 
> "Acceptable Use Policy" is there any way to "force" the use of such a 
> policy before people can sign up for a mailing list in mailman? What I 
> mean by "force" is something where they need to at least scroll down to 
> the bottom of an AUP and check a box that they have read it before they 
> can submit their signup request.

You might be able to do some HTML / JavaScript trickery to pull this off 
on the sign up page.  At least in so far as hiding or disabling the 
button to sign up until people have checked the "Accept the AUP" check box.



Grant. . . .

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Nov 20 08:28:01 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:28:01 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses our
 spam filters
In-Reply-To: <4925099E.8080109@riverviewtech.net>
References: <18722.20646.44808.370222@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
	<4925099E.8080109@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <49251181.5020101@shub-internet.org>

on 11/20/08 12:54 AM, Grant Taylor said:

> 2)  Does gate_news have the ability to filter (gateway or not) messages 
> based on the contents of the Path: header in the Usenet message?

Not inherently, no.  But that feature could be added.

> 3)  Is it possible to have gate_news call some of the other freely 
> available Usenet spam filters that already exist?  Why re-invent the 
> wheel if we can hook in to already existing filters on the Usenet side.

That's also a good idea, although not currently available in the 
existing code.

Call them before SpamBayes, I think.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From bw at el.net  Thu Nov 20 06:16:19 2008
From: bw at el.net (BROOKS WILLIAMS)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:16:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts to earthlink.com
Message-ID: <f7cf1e210811192116g1ed44631k8b13f857a6e36267@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
We have subscribers on earthlink.com who receive multiple copies of
postings. Has anyone else had this problem? I saw a posting about it from
2003 but there was no solution given.

Thanks,

Brooks

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 20 08:31:31 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:31:31 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts to earthlink.com
In-Reply-To: <f7cf1e210811192116g1ed44631k8b13f857a6e36267@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f7cf1e210811192116g1ed44631k8b13f857a6e36267@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49251253.6000305@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/19/2008 11:16 PM, BROOKS WILLIAMS wrote:
> We have subscribers on earthlink.com who receive multiple copies of 
> postings. Has anyone else had this problem? I saw a posting about it 
> from 2003 but there was no solution given.

Check your MTA logs and see if Mailman its self is sending duplicate 
emails.  My bet is that it's not Mailman and that it is something else 
between your MTA and the receiving MTA.

That or posters are being CCed and receiving the copy that is being sent 
by the mailing list.



Grant. . . .

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Nov 20 08:33:12 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:33:12 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts to earthlink.com
In-Reply-To: <f7cf1e210811192116g1ed44631k8b13f857a6e36267@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f7cf1e210811192116g1ed44631k8b13f857a6e36267@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <492512B8.7030308@shub-internet.org>

on 11/19/08 11:16 PM, BROOKS WILLIAMS said:

> We have subscribers on earthlink.com who receive multiple copies of
> postings. Has anyone else had this problem? I saw a posting about it from
> 2003 but there was no solution given.

What is in your MTA logs?  What is in their MTA logs?

Have you seen several sample messages, so that you can do a comparison 
and contrast between the supposed duplicates?  In my experience, when 
you look closely at the Received: headers, you usually find that the two 
messages are literally identical with identical headers, queue-ids, 
etc... up to a point.  Beyond that point, they diverge.  And that's the 
place where your duplicate was created, so now you have a pretty good 
idea who to go whack.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 20 08:37:14 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:37:14 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts to earthlink.com
In-Reply-To: <492512B8.7030308@shub-internet.org>
References: <f7cf1e210811192116g1ed44631k8b13f857a6e36267@mail.gmail.com>
	<492512B8.7030308@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <492513AA.7050005@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/20/2008 01:33 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> Have you seen several sample messages, so that you can do a comparison 
> and contrast between the supposed duplicates?  In my experience, when 
> you look closely at the Received: headers, you usually find that the two 
> messages are literally identical with identical headers, queue-ids, 
> etc... up to a point.  Beyond that point, they diverge.  And that's the 
> place where your duplicate was created, so now you have a pretty good 
> idea who to go whack.

If my logic is correct, it should be the last server (Received: header 
closest to the top of the message) that received the message that was 
not duplicated.  If the two examples share one Received: header and then 
subsequent (closer to the top) are different, it is the server that 
generated last common Received header that is causing the duplication / 
sending the message multiple times.



Grant. . . .

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Thu Nov 20 08:51:17 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:51:17 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam gatewayed from Usenet to mail bypasses our
 spam filters
In-Reply-To: <49251181.5020101@shub-internet.org>
References: <18722.20646.44808.370222@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>	<4925099E.8080109@riverviewtech.net>
	<49251181.5020101@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <492516F5.6080508@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/20/2008 01:28 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> Not inherently, no.  But that feature could be added.

*nod*

> That's also a good idea, although not currently available in the 
> existing code.

*nod*

> Call them before SpamBayes, I think.

Agreed.

I don't know for sure, but I'm betting that SpamBayes is wanting to 
filter the message as if it is email, rather than news.  This means that 
it will inherently be later in the chain than other news filtering 
utilities.

Seeing as how there has been a fair amount of discussion about 
""enhancing the Usenet support in Mailman, I as this question:

Is it appropriate to change Mailman such that it better supports Usenet 
or would we be better served by developing a gateway that will accept 
messages in on STDIN.

Doing things via STDIN would allow us to separate Mailman from the 
complexities of Usenet (or any thing else for that matter) and 
concentrate on mailing lists, what Mailman was designed to do.

Using the STDIN approach would dictate the need for a small standalone 
utility / gateway that could somehow get Usenet messages, be it a small 
NNTP server that receives a feed, some incarnation of suck, or something 
even more exotic retrieving messages and handing them out via STDOUT to 
Mailman's STDIN.

I believe this protocol independent interface between STDOUT and STDIN 
will make maintenance of things much simpler long term for both Mailman 
and what ever is used as the Usenet side of the gateway.

(Similar would be done to receive messages from Mailman and post them to 
Usenet.)



Grant. . . .

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Nov 20 08:53:58 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:53:58 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts to earthlink.com
In-Reply-To: <492513AA.7050005@riverviewtech.net>
References: <f7cf1e210811192116g1ed44631k8b13f857a6e36267@mail.gmail.com>	<492512B8.7030308@shub-internet.org>
	<492513AA.7050005@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <49251796.3030506@shub-internet.org>

on 11/20/08 1:37 AM, Grant Taylor said:

> If my logic is correct, it should be the last server (Received: header 
> closest to the top of the message) that received the message that was 
> not duplicated.  If the two examples share one Received: header and then 
> subsequent (closer to the top) are different, it is the server that 
> generated last common Received header that is causing the duplication / 
> sending the message multiple times.

The problem is that you can't always be 100% certain which server is 
actually responsible.

I've seen cases where the receiving server generated a 4xx series error 
message after the end of the DATA section, or just plain timed out after 
the end of the DATA section, and the sending server thought it needed to 
retransmit the message.  But what really happened is that the receiving 
server actually accepted and delivered the message, and erroneously 
generated the error message, or didn't handle a timeout properly.

I've also seen cases where the sending server is at fault.


So, you at least know that there is a breakdown somewhere between the 
two machines in question, and you should be able to figure out who the 
respective administrators are, and work from there.  Once you actually 
confirm which machine is at fault, you know who you need to whack with 
the cluebat.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 20 17:48:15 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:48:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving lists without shell access
In-Reply-To: <4923995F.3070401@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811200848150078248f4a5d@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>on 11/18/08 6:36 PM, Scott Race said:
>
>> Is there a way to move lists from one server to another without shell
>> access?  I am able to download the archives from the admin interface,
>> but don't have ssh access.... Thanks!
>
>There's no way to import the archives without using the command-line 
>interface.  Not unless you want to re-send those messages to the new 
>mailing list from an external system.


Right.

Also, if you are retrieving archives via the web, you want to try to
retrieve the archival .mbox file (if there is one) rather than the
individual, periodic .txt or .txt.gz files. The .mbox has a lot of
information (headers) that isn't in the .txt files.

Try a url like
<http://www.example.com/mailman/private/LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 20 18:02:22 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:02:22 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One private archive not appearing online
In-Reply-To: <f989cec95271.5271f989cec9@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC187020081120090222032892a584de@msapiro>

jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:

>I am wanting to rebuild an archive but when I issue the following
>command either as mailman or root:
>
>bin/arch --wipe mylist
>/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist.mbox/mylist.mbox
>
>I get the following error:
>
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "./arch", line 200, in ?
>    main()
>  File "./arch", line 177, in main
>    shutil.rmtree(mlist.archive_dir())
>  File "/usr/lib/python2.4/shutil.py", line 155, in rmtree
>    onerror(os.listdir, path, sys.exc_info())
>  File "/usr/lib/python2.4/shutil.py", line 153, in rmtree
>    names = os.listdir(path)
>OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
>'/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist'
>
>I believe this one archive has not been working for a very long time. 
>The permissions are:
>drwxrwsr-x   2 mailman mailman   4096 Nov 19 12:11 .
>drwxrws--x 200 mailman mailman  12288 Nov 19 12:14 ..
>-rw-rw-r--   1 mailman mailman 502357 Sep  1 04:00 mylist


/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist should be a directory, not a
file.

First make sure that
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist.mbox/mylist.mbox looks like
it actually contains all the archived messages. Then look at
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist and see what it is. If you
think you might want to keep it,

 mv /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist somewhere/else

otherwise, just

 rm /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist

Then do

 bin/arch mylist

without the --wipe option. You also don't need to specify
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist.mbox/mylist.mbox as the
input as that is the defauly for 'mylist'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 20 18:09:55 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:09:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <49247FA6.8040901@geniusmoon.com.au>
Message-ID: <PC187020081120090955026500bbbe40@msapiro>

Mark Dale wrote:
>
>> There have been many changes in Scrubber.py (the module which does
>> this) since 2.1.5. I will look into it, but I don't know if I will be
>> able to duplicate the problem.
>
>For what it's worth Mark, I copied a Scrubber.py from a Version 2.19 on
>the wild chance that it might do some good - but as was to be expected,
>no magic occurred.


Did you remember to restart Mailman after replacing Scrubber.py?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 20 18:28:30 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:28:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The Mysterious Disappearing Disk Space (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0811191714100.1455@mx1.mfn.org>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811200928300375bf3ffe15@msapiro>

J.A. Terranson wrote:

>
>On Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> Enabling VERP might cause the MTA to use a lot more queue space, but I
>> don't see that it would affect Mailman much.
>
>The only difference was in the rate at which the "loss" accrued.  Roughly 
>a 6x increase.


Mailman's VERP would only affect OutgoingRunner and SMTPDirect.py, and
all it would do is cause additional SMTP transactions with the MTA.
Thus, this might help localize the problem to this specific area.


>> There almost certainly is something in Mailman's error log unless the
>> logfile just can't be grown to accommodate the message.
>
>No, there really isn't.  I have combed through all of them (bounce, error, 
>mischeif, post qrunner, smtp & failure, subscribe and vette.  Did I miss 
>anything?), with no sign of anything being wrong.  


Near the beginning of Mailman's scripts/driver, you will see

STEALTH_MODE = 1

if you change this to

STEALTH_MODE = 0

or

STEALTH_MODE = False

The traceback from the "bug" message should be included with the
message. This may help if this particular issue recurs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 20 18:34:56 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:34:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives to a new list?
In-Reply-To: <4924840C.4000901@openenterprise.ca>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811200934560531764b1b8b@msapiro>

Johnny Stork wrote
>
>I have been running a mailing list which now requires a name change. I 
>have created the new list and so was wondering if there is some way to 
>move all the old archives to the new list? They are on the same 
>server/domain, but have different names now?


Copy or prepend archives/private/OLDLIST.mbox/OLDLIST.mbox to
archives/private/NEWLIST.mbox/NEWLIST.mbox - copy if NEWLIST has no
current archives that you want to keep; prepend if you want to merge
the OLDLIST archive with the current NEWLIST archive.

Then run

 bin/arch --wipe NEWLIST

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 20 20:35:39 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:35:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with sending messages to list
In-Reply-To: <AAF7D1123B6E414C87E82FEAAD96F2D3@VikramXPS>
Message-ID: <PC18702008112011353908284cc2f523@msapiro>

Vikram Goyal wrote:
>
>Since I sent this email, I have been able to send emails to the test list,
>but not to the others. The test list has only 4 members.
>
>Further, the test list doesn't have any mapping in the alias settings for
>sendmail. Very weird.


So you're saying that lists with aliases don't work, but a list without
aliases does work?


Yet you said before

>>I checked the mail logs (/var/log/maillog), and the following entry was
>>found for a test message send to the test list:
>>
>> 
>>
>>"Nov 18 01:29:51 ip-XXXXX sendmail[13901]: mAI8ToHD013890:
>>to="|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post test", ctladdr=<test@****.com>
>>(8/0), delay=00:00:01, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=prog, pri=33119, dsn=2.0.0,
>>stat=Sent"

Where did the "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post test" pipe come
from if not an alias?

Without further relevant information, I can't add anything to my
previous reply.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From skip at pobox.com  Fri Nov 21 06:06:59 2008
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:06:59 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] so how can I test a modified gate_news?
Message-ID: <18726.16883.474504.695111@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>


I've got this gate_news script modified to run SpamBayes but I'm unsure how
I can test it.  I'm fairly confident that I got most things right, but the
only news-to-mail gateway I have access to is for comp.lang.python, not one
I'd care to hose up too badly.

It occurs to me that maybe I could set up a one-way gateway from some
arbitrary low-traffic newsgroup to a one-off mailing list.  I haven't any
experience setting up gate_news.  Can someone here suggest a recipe for
testing this beast which doesn't require too much scaffolding?

Thanks,

-- 
Skip Montanaro - skip at pobox.com - http://smontanaro.dyndns.org/

From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Nov 21 07:18:12 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:18:12 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] so how can I test a modified gate_news?
In-Reply-To: <18726.16883.474504.695111@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
References: <18726.16883.474504.695111@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
Message-ID: <492652A4.4070102@shub-internet.org>

on 11/20/08 11:06 PM, skip at pobox.com said:

> It occurs to me that maybe I could set up a one-way gateway from some
> arbitrary low-traffic newsgroup to a one-off mailing list.  I haven't any
> experience setting up gate_news.  Can someone here suggest a recipe for
> testing this beast which doesn't require too much scaffolding?

The issue here is that you not only need to set up a different version 
of gate_news, you really kind of need to set up a different copy of 
Mailman to play with, and you need a few test e-mail addresses to use as 
your mail-side subscribers, and a news server account somewhere else in 
the world so that you can see what news articles look like when they go out.

Any of the standard "test" newsgroups would be fine to use as your 
guinea pig, since you're going to go ahead and throw all that stuff away 
when you're done.


Barry does a lot of this kind of testing in his own little playground on 
the machines he owns, and I believe that Mark does the same.

We can see about setting up a second copy of Mailman (and gate_news) on 
the python.org machines, but it would be a little easier to test with if 
we could do that on a machine that did not already have an existing 
production Mailman installation.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Fri Nov 21 07:18:16 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:18:16 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] so how can I test a modified gate_news?
In-Reply-To: <18726.16883.474504.695111@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
References: <18726.16883.474504.695111@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
Message-ID: <492652A8.9030806@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/20/2008 11:06 PM, skip at pobox.com wrote:
> I've got this gate_news script modified to run SpamBayes but I'm 
> unsure how I can test it.  I'm fairly confident that I got most 
> things right, but the only news-to-mail gateway I have access to is 
> for comp.lang.python, not one I'd care to hose up too badly.

Aw, why not.  :P

> It occurs to me that maybe I could set up a one-way gateway from some 
> arbitrary low-traffic newsgroup to a one-off mailing list.  I haven't 
> any experience setting up gate_news.  Can someone here suggest a 
> recipe for testing this beast which doesn't require too much 
> scaffolding?

Why not set up another mailing list that does the same gatewaying but 
this time through the SpamBayes filter.

As I sit here and type that I'm betting that the filtering will be 
Mailman install wide, not just mailing list specific.  (Presuming that 
this is the case.)  Why not shut down your Mailman instance and copy it 
to another location for testing.  Go ahead and re-start your first 
instance and then tweak the second one for the testing in a new 
location.  I think that would allow you to run tow completely 
independent Mailman installs with different features.

This is presuming that Mailman will allow its self to run multiple 
instances on the same system.  If this is not possible, let me know as I 
have a system that I could do a temporary install of Mailman and do some 
testing and compare it against another install that I have.

Though, something to keep in mind is that now is not really the best 
time to try things with the drop in spam with McColo being shut down and 
all...

> Thanks,

*nod*



Grant. . . .

From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Fri Nov 21 07:24:07 2008
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:24:07 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] so how can I test a modified gate_news?
In-Reply-To: <492652A4.4070102@shub-internet.org>
References: <18726.16883.474504.695111@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
	<492652A4.4070102@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <49265407.5060207@riverviewtech.net>

On 11/21/2008 12:18 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> The issue here is that you not only need to set up a different version 
> of gate_news, you really kind of need to set up a different copy of 
> Mailman to play with, and you need a few test e-mail addresses to use as 
> your mail-side subscribers, and a news server account somewhere else in 
> the world so that you can see what news articles look like when they go 
> out.

I had not thought about the separate news server.  Though I don't 
completely understand why you can't test on the same news server.

> We can see about setting up a second copy of Mailman (and gate_news) on 
> the python.org machines, but it would be a little easier to test with if 
> we could do that on a machine that did not already have an existing 
> production Mailman installation.

(Refer to my last email.)

If you will let me know what you want installed for your test bed, I'll 
set something up.  I can also provide email addresses for testing if you 
don't care about the domain that they are at.  Just let me know.



Grant. . . .

From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Nov 21 07:30:34 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:30:34 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] so how can I test a modified gate_news?
In-Reply-To: <492652A8.9030806@riverviewtech.net>
References: <18726.16883.474504.695111@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
	<492652A8.9030806@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <4926558A.9070804@shub-internet.org>

on 11/21/08 12:18 AM, Grant Taylor said:

> Why not set up another mailing list that does the same gatewaying but 
> this time through the SpamBayes filter.
> 
> As I sit here and type that I'm betting that the filtering will be 
> Mailman install wide, not just mailing list specific.  (Presuming that 
> this is the case.)

Correct.  That would be site-wide.

>                     Why not shut down your Mailman instance and copy it 
> to another location for testing.

I'd kind of rather not shut it down unless there isn't any other option. 
  We do hundreds of thousands of e-mail messages per day, and I'd rather 
not disrupt any of the other 100+ production lists on the server unless 
there is no other choice.

>                                   Go ahead and re-start your first 
> instance and then tweak the second one for the testing in a new 
> location.  I think that would allow you to run tow completely 
> independent Mailman installs with different features.

Mailman can do that, yes.  But it takes some more work, and you can't 
just blindly copy one mailman installation to another and then expect to 
start the second one up without a lot of additional work.

If you want to run multiple copies of Mailman on the same server, you 
really kind of need to do fresh installs for each additional copy.  This 
makes sure that all the paths are set correctly for each copy, including 
which different configuration file they are built to use by default, 
which different directory structures they're configured to use, etc....

> This is presuming that Mailman will allow its self to run multiple 
> instances on the same system.

It can be done, but it takes a bit more work.

>                                If this is not possible, let me know as I 
> have a system that I could do a temporary install of Mailman and do some 
> testing and compare it against another install that I have.

If Skip wants to go that direction and doesn't have a machine of his own 
that he can use for this function, I think that the PSF has another 
couple of machines around that we could probably use for some short-term 
testing.

In that case, we'll just need to make sure that the appropriate accounts 
are in place, etc....  And one or more members of the postmaster team 
will probably need to be involved in helping set that stuff up, so 
there's going to be a bit of coordination to be done.

> Though, something to keep in mind is that now is not really the best 
> time to try things with the drop in spam with McColo being shut down and 
> all...

In this case, we're looking at USENET spam being gatewayed to e-mail, 
and I have no evidence that there has been any appreciable dropoff in 
USENET spam over the last couple of weeks.  So, this should still be a 
valid test going that direction.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Nov 21 07:33:01 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:33:01 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] so how can I test a modified gate_news?
In-Reply-To: <49265407.5060207@riverviewtech.net>
References: <18726.16883.474504.695111@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>	<492652A4.4070102@shub-internet.org>
	<49265407.5060207@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <4926561D.5040005@shub-internet.org>

on 11/21/08 12:24 AM, Grant Taylor said:

> I had not thought about the separate news server.  Though I don't 
> completely understand why you can't test on the same news server.

You could actually test on the same news server for sending out the 
traffic, but you still need that independent verification test, to see 
how things look once they get off that local server.

You need to do more than just the loopback test, although the loopback 
test is where you start.

> If you will let me know what you want installed for your test bed, I'll 
> set something up.  I can also provide email addresses for testing if you 
> don't care about the domain that they are at.  Just let me know.

We'll keep that in mind.  And if Skip wants to move forward on setting 
this up on a schedule that is tough for the members of the postmaster 
team to assist with, then of course he's certainly free to contact you 
for that assistance.

That's a decision I'll leave up to him.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From b19141 at anl.gov  Fri Nov 21 17:39:21 2008
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:39:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about ban_list Regular Expression
Message-ID: <20081121163921.16D3E175DD@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

I have a question about the ban_list regex.  In a reply on
Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:59:28 Mark Sapiro wrote

>  So set Privacy options...->Sender filters->generic_nonmember_action
>  to Accept so anyone can post and set Privacy options...->Subscription
>  rules->ban_list to a regex that matches all addresses not in your
>  domain. E.g.,
>  
>  ^.*@(?!example\.com)$
>  
>  or if you want to allow sub-domains within your domain
>  
>  ^.*@(.*\.)?(?!example\.com)$

If I want subdomains of example.com and anl.gov to be able to
subscribe (and to ban other domains), is this the correct regex for
ban_list?

     ^(regex|regex)

i.e.,

     ^(.*@(.*\.)?(?!example\.com)$|.*@(.*\.)?(?!anl\.gov)$)

Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 21 19:36:06 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:36:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about ban_list Regular Expression
In-Reply-To: <20081121163921.16D3E175DD@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811211036060218337fa720@msapiro>

Barry Finkel wrote:

>I have a question about the ban_list regex.  In a reply on
>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:59:28 Mark Sapiro wrote
>
>>  So set Privacy options...->Sender filters->generic_nonmember_action
>>  to Accept so anyone can post and set Privacy options...->Subscription
>>  rules->ban_list to a regex that matches all addresses not in your
>>  domain. E.g.,
>>  
>>  ^.*@(?!example\.com)$
>>  
>>  or if you want to allow sub-domains within your domain
>>  
>>  ^.*@(.*\.)?(?!example\.com)$
>
>If I want subdomains of example.com and anl.gov to be able to
>subscribe (and to ban other domains), is this the correct regex for
>ban_list?
>
>     ^(regex|regex)
>
>i.e.,
>
>     ^(.*@(.*\.)?(?!example\.com)$|.*@(.*\.)?(?!anl\.gov)$)


No.

The first problem is that my original regexps are wrong. I thought I
had tested them, but apparently I hadn't.

The simple domain without subdomains regexp should be

  ^.*@(?!example\.com$)

The domain with subdomains regexp should be

  ^.*@(?!(.*\.)?example\.com$)


That said, the ORing of these regexps as in

  ^(.*@(?!(.*\.)?example\.com$)|.*@(?!(.*\.)?example\.com$))

or even

  ^.*@((?!(.*\.)?example\.com$)|(?!(.*\.)?anl\.gov$))

will always match because these match addresses that don't end with
something and if you OR together two different somethings, every
address doesn't end with at least one of them so every address matches.

You would need something like

  ^.*@(?!(.*\.)?(example\.com|anl\.gov)$)

(and I did test that this time)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From lists at openenterprise.ca  Sat Nov 22 00:05:50 2008
From: lists at openenterprise.ca (Johnny Stork)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:05:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives to a new list?
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811200934560531764b1b8b@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811200934560531764b1b8b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <49273ECE.5030307@openenterprise.ca>

Thanks for getting back to me. Unfortunately this didnt work completely 
since all the html, attachements etc were not included. So I tried this 
but still not complete success

1: Copied archives/private/OLDLIST.mbox/OLDLIST.mbox to 
archives/private/NEWLIST.mbox/NEWLIST.mbox

2: Copied everything in archives/private/OLDLIST.ca to archives/N EWLIST.ca

3: Edited archives/private/NEWLIST.ca/pipermail.pck so the basedir is 
now archives/private/NEWLIST.ca


I could then go to the archives page and see all the old messages just 
fine, but a couple problems persist


1: If I send a message to the NEWLIST, it is processed fine, but the 
archive html pages does not show the new postings?

2: All previous postings in the archives to OLDLIST, where there are 
attachements, still point to the OLDLIST location


Is there any way to at least fix #1? that you know of


Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Johnny Stork wrote
>   
>> I have been running a mailing list which now requires a name change. I 
>> have created the new list and so was wondering if there is some way to 
>> move all the old archives to the new list? They are on the same 
>> server/domain, but have different names now?
>>     
>
>
> Copy or prepend archives/private/OLDLIST.mbox/OLDLIST.mbox to
> archives/private/NEWLIST.mbox/NEWLIST.mbox - copy if NEWLIST has no
> current archives that you want to keep; prepend if you want to merge
> the OLDLIST archive with the current NEWLIST archive.
>
> Then run
>
>  bin/arch --wipe NEWLIST
>
>   

-- 
Johnny Stork
Open Enterprise Solutions
"Empowering Business With Open Solutions"

http://www.openenterprise.ca


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov 22 03:03:25 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 18:03:25 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives to a new list?
In-Reply-To: <49273ECE.5030307@openenterprise.ca>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811211803250781c3758326@msapiro>

Johnny Stork wrote:

>Thanks for getting back to me. Unfortunately this didnt work completely 
>since all the html, attachements etc were not included.


That probably means that for the old list's Non-digest options ->
scrub_nondigest was set to Yes, so attachments, HTML, etc. were
removed before the message was archived.

If this is the case, you could do the following:


>1: Copied archives/private/OLDLIST.mbox/OLDLIST.mbox to 
>archives/private/NEWLIST.mbox/NEWLIST.mbox


Yes.

Then run "bin/arch --wipe NEWLIST"

The problem now is you have to keep the
archives/private/OLDLIST/attachments directory because that's where
the links in the messages to scrubbed attachments point.

Either that or you could first edit
archives/private/NEWLIST.mbox/NEWLIST.mbox before running bin/arch and
change all the OLDLIST URLs to NEWLIST and then after running
bin/arch, move archives/private/OLDLIST/attachments to
archives/private/NEWLIST/attachments.


>2: Copied everything in archives/private/OLDLIST.ca to archives/N EWLIST.ca
>
>3: Edited archives/private/NEWLIST.ca/pipermail.pck so the basedir is 
>now archives/private/NEWLIST.ca


On the other hand, I have no idea what archives/private/OLDLIST.ca
might be.  In standard Mailman there are only two directories per list
in archives/private, and they are archives/private/LISTNAME and
archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox, so You may be dealing with something
about which I know nothing.


>I could then go to the archives page and see all the old messages just 
>fine, but a couple problems persist
>
>
>1: If I send a message to the NEWLIST, it is processed fine, but the 
>archive html pages does not show the new postings?
>
>2: All previous postings in the archives to OLDLIST, where there are 
>attachements, still point to the OLDLIST location
>
>
>Is there any way to at least fix #1? that you know of


#1 could be permissions or anything. Is there anything in Mailman's
error log for these posts?

See above for #2.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mdale at geniusmoon.com.au  Sun Nov 23 04:24:33 2008
From: mdale at geniusmoon.com.au (Mark Dale)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:24:33 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081120090955026500bbbe40@msapiro>
References: <PC187020081120090955026500bbbe40@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4928CCF1.3010906@geniusmoon.com.au>



Hi Mark
(Apologies for late reply, have been away)

Yes, I sure did. And also rebooted the server (and checked that the
qrunner was starting up on boot)
I also noticed that with the new Scrubber.py, emails with attachments
were neither delivered nor archived. Emails without attachments were okay.

Once I returned the original Scrubber.py and restarted, emails with
attachments got delivered and also sent to archive. (Broken link to
attachment still in archived message though).

Mark Dale



Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Did you remember to restart Mailman after replacing Scrubber.py?
> 






From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov 23 05:50:54 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:50:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <4928CCF1.3010906@geniusmoon.com.au>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811222050540734fd803fd4@msapiro>

Mark Dale wrote:

>I also noticed that with the new Scrubber.py, emails with attachments
>were neither delivered nor archived. Emails without attachments were okay.


There is probably some incompatibility between the 2.1.9 Scrubber.py
and the rest of your installation that threw an exception on mail with
attachments. Check Mailman's error log and shunt queue.


>Once I returned the original Scrubber.py and restarted, emails with
>attachments got delivered and also sent to archive. (Broken link to
>attachment still in archived message though).


I have been able to duplicate the problem with the 2.1.5 version of
Scrubber.py. I'll try to come up with a simple patch that you can
apply to fix it. It is fixed in recent Scrubber.py versions.

The issue is as I thought. The scrubbed message is quoted-printable
encoded, but the Content-Transfer-Encoding: header says 8bit and not
quoted-printable so the message is not properly decoded for the
archive.

In my case, I could see other symptoms of this besides just the URL of
the scrubbed attachment. For example, the "-- " separator before my
signature was rendered as "-- =" followed by a blank line.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov 23 06:01:47 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:01:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811222050540734fd803fd4@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC18702008112221014708284ff0542b@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>I have been able to duplicate the problem with the 2.1.5 version of
>Scrubber.py. I'll try to come up with a simple patch that you can
>apply to fix it. It is fixed in recent Scrubber.py versions.


I think you'd be better off upgrading your Mailman, but if you want to
try a patch to the 2.1.5 Scrubber.py, I think this should do it. It is
only lightly tested, but I think it's OK.

--- Scrubber.py 2008-11-22 20:21:38.375000000 -0800
+++ Scrubberx.py        2008-11-22 20:54:47.250000000 -0800
@@ -326,9 +326,8 @@
         # Now join the text and set the payload
         sep = _('-------------- next part --------------\n')
         del msg['content-type']
-        msg.set_payload(sep.join(text), charset)
         del msg['content-transfer-encoding']
-        msg.add_header('Content-Transfer-Encoding', '8bit')
+        msg.set_payload(sep.join(text), charset)
     return msg



-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mdale at geniusmoon.com.au  Sun Nov 23 11:34:40 2008
From: mdale at geniusmoon.com.au (Mark Dale)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 21:34:40 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811222050540734fd803fd4@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811222050540734fd803fd4@msapiro>
Message-ID: <492931C0.7030704@geniusmoon.com.au>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> There is probably some incompatibility between the 2.1.9 Scrubber.py
> and the rest of your installation that threw an exception on mail with
> attachments. Check Mailman's error log and shunt queue.

Yes, it was a shot in the dark replacing 2.1.5 Srubber with a 2.1.9
There are a number of errors in the logfile  e.g.

Nov 23 03:05:27 2008 (1800) SHUNTING: 
1227409525.3357961+31e6f6226a3b5cbc4a8dadaf3f4dde064947822e

Nov 23 03:07:07 2008 (1800) uncaught archiver exception at filepos: 0

Nov 23 03:07:07 2008 (1800) Uncaught runner exception: 'module' object 
has no attribute 'SCRUBBER_USE_ATTACHMENT_FILENAME_EXTENSION'

> I have been able to duplicate the problem with the 2.1.5 version of
> Scrubber.py. I'll try to come up with a simple patch that you can
> apply to fix it. 

That would be brilliant!

> The issue is as I thought. The scrubbed message is quoted-printable
> encoded, but the Content-Transfer-Encoding: header says 8bit and not
> quoted-printable so the message is not properly decoded for the
> archive.

Yes. Grant Taylor mentioned this. He made reference to format=flow being 
the go, rather that quoted=printable. I confess it's something I don't 
understand. I had thought f=f was something the email client decided.

> In my case, I could see other symptoms of this besides just the URL of
> the scrubbed attachment. For example, the "-- " separator before my
> signature was rendered as "-- =" followed by a blank line.

Yes. I saw that also, I was pretending not to. ;-)

cheers
Mark Dale



From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov 23 18:12:44 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 09:12:44 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <492931C0.7030704@geniusmoon.com.au>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811230912440109ce913f19@msapiro>

Mark Dale wrote:

>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> I have been able to duplicate the problem with the 2.1.5 version of
>> Scrubber.py. I'll try to come up with a simple patch that you can
>> apply to fix it. 
>
>That would be brilliant!


It is not clear if you saw my followup post with the patch. It's at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-November/064117.html>
in case you missed it.


>> The issue is as I thought. The scrubbed message is quoted-printable
>> encoded, but the Content-Transfer-Encoding: header says 8bit and not
>> quoted-printable so the message is not properly decoded for the
>> archive.
>
>Yes. Grant Taylor mentioned this. He made reference to format=flow being 
>the go, rather that quoted=printable. I confess it's something I don't 
>understand. I had thought f=f was something the email client decided.


Format=flowed and/or quoted-printable encoding are all things decided
by a mail client or in this case by the Python email library.
Scrubber.py is building a new, text/plain message containing the
text/plain parts of the original messages and the notes and URLs for
scrubbed parts. It creates the body by concatenating these parts
separated by the '-------------- next part --------------\n' separator.

It then calls an email message method to set this as the message body,
and the email library decides on the appropriate
Content-Transfer-Encoding and sets the appropriate header. The bug in
Scrubber is that it removed that header and replaced it with
"Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit".

The current email library will create quoted-printable encoded parts
where appropriate, but won't create format=flowed which is a good
thing because the pipermail archiver doesn't understand it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mdale at geniusmoon.com.au  Sun Nov 23 22:48:24 2008
From: mdale at geniusmoon.com.au (Mark Dale)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:48:24 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Attachment URL in the archive is mangled.
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008112221014708284ff0542b@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008112221014708284ff0542b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4929CFA8.10107@geniusmoon.com.au>

Hi Mark

Your patch has worked a treat. Thank you very much for your patience and
generosity. Many of us would be a long way up the proverbial creek if it
weren't for your support.

In summary, for those interested:

Using Mailman 2.1.5 - in the Archives, the URL to attachments was being
malformed by it getting wrapped and an "=" sign inserted at the line break.

This was fixed (albeit lightly tested so far) by replacing, in the
Scrubber.py file, as follows:

--------
OLD CODE
--------
        # Now join the text and set the payload
        sep = _('-------------- next part --------------\n')
        del msg['content-type']
        msg.set_payload(sep.join(text), charset)
        del msg['content-transfer-encoding']
        msg.add_header('Content-Transfer-Encoding', '8bit')
    return msg

--------
NEW CODE
--------
        # Now join the text and set the payload
        sep = _('-------------- next part --------------\n')
        del msg['content-type']
        del msg['content-transfer-encoding']
        msg.set_payload(sep.join(text), charset)
    return msg


cheers
Mark



Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> I have been able to duplicate the problem with the 2.1.5 version of
>> Scrubber.py. I'll try to come up with a simple patch that you can
>> apply to fix it. It is fixed in recent Scrubber.py versions.
> 
> 
> I think you'd be better off upgrading your Mailman, but if you want to
> try a patch to the 2.1.5 Scrubber.py, I think this should do it. It is
> only lightly tested, but I think it's OK.
> 
> --- Scrubber.py 2008-11-22 20:21:38.375000000 -0800
> +++ Scrubberx.py        2008-11-22 20:54:47.250000000 -0800
> @@ -326,9 +326,8 @@
>          # Now join the text and set the payload
>          sep = _('-------------- next part --------------\n')
>          del msg['content-type']
> -        msg.set_payload(sep.join(text), charset)
>          del msg['content-transfer-encoding']
> -        msg.add_header('Content-Transfer-Encoding', '8bit')
> +        msg.set_payload(sep.join(text), charset)
>      return msg





From lists at openenterprise.ca  Mon Nov 24 00:17:21 2008
From: lists at openenterprise.ca (Johnny Stork)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:17:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives to a new list?
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811211803250781c3758326@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811211803250781c3758326@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4929E481.3030405@openenterprise.ca>

Sorry Mark, the problem was between the monitor and the chair.....ME!! I 
was not running arch from the mailman bin folder so was running the 
other arch command in /bin. My mistake, all works fine now and archives 
moved.


Thanks for your help

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Johnny Stork wrote:
>
>   
>> Thanks for getting back to me. Unfortunately this didnt work completely 
>> since all the html, attachements etc were not included.
>>     
>
>
> That probably means that for the old list's Non-digest options ->
> scrub_nondigest was set to Yes, so attachments, HTML, etc. were
> removed before the message was archived.
>
> If this is the case, you could do the following:
>
>
>   
>> 1: Copied archives/private/OLDLIST.mbox/OLDLIST.mbox to 
>> archives/private/NEWLIST.mbox/NEWLIST.mbox
>>     
>
>
> Yes.
>
> Then run "bin/arch --wipe NEWLIST"
>
> The problem now is you have to keep the
> archives/private/OLDLIST/attachments directory because that's where
> the links in the messages to scrubbed attachments point.
>
> Either that or you could first edit
> archives/private/NEWLIST.mbox/NEWLIST.mbox before running bin/arch and
> change all the OLDLIST URLs to NEWLIST and then after running
> bin/arch, move archives/private/OLDLIST/attachments to
> archives/private/NEWLIST/attachments.
>
>
>   
>> 2: Copied everything in archives/private/OLDLIST.ca to archives/N EWLIST.ca
>>
>> 3: Edited archives/private/NEWLIST.ca/pipermail.pck so the basedir is 
>> now archives/private/NEWLIST.ca
>>     
>
>
> On the other hand, I have no idea what archives/private/OLDLIST.ca
> might be.  In standard Mailman there are only two directories per list
> in archives/private, and they are archives/private/LISTNAME and
> archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox, so You may be dealing with something
> about which I know nothing.
>
>
>   
>> I could then go to the archives page and see all the old messages just 
>> fine, but a couple problems persist
>>
>>
>> 1: If I send a message to the NEWLIST, it is processed fine, but the 
>> archive html pages does not show the new postings?
>>
>> 2: All previous postings in the archives to OLDLIST, where there are 
>> attachements, still point to the OLDLIST location
>>
>>
>> Is there any way to at least fix #1? that you know of
>>     
>
>
> #1 could be permissions or anything. Is there anything in Mailman's
> error log for these posts?
>
> See above for #2.
>
>   

-- 
Johnny Stork
Open Enterprise Solutions
"Empowering Business With Open Solutions"

http://www.openenterprise.ca


From lists at openenterprise.ca  Mon Nov 24 00:18:16 2008
From: lists at openenterprise.ca (Johnny Stork)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:18:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives Sort Order
Message-ID: <4929E4B8.3010006@openenterprise.ca>

Is there any way to force the sort order in the archives to show the 
most recent at the top, rather than at the bottom?

-- 
Johnny Stork
Open Enterprise Solutions
"Empowering Business With Open Solutions"

http://www.openenterprise.ca


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 24 00:24:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:24:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives Sort Order
In-Reply-To: <4929E4B8.3010006@openenterprise.ca>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811231524120703f3b2978b@msapiro>

Johnny Stork wrote:

>Is there any way to force the sort order in the archives to show the 
>most recent at the top, rather than at the bottom?


Not without modifying pipermail which would be a daunting task only for
the extremely courageous.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From butche at butchevans.com  Mon Nov 24 01:48:47 2008
From: butche at butchevans.com (Butch Evans)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:48:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Template question..
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0811231840290.31035@localhost.localdomain>

I recently set up a searchable archive for my mailman installation 
using the instructions found here: 
http://wpkg.org/Integrating_Mailman_with_a_Swish-e_search_engine

Everything works exactly as expected, but there is one small 
problem.  Every time a new message is posted to any list that 
contains the updated template (which includes the search box), 
mailman will overwrite the archive index page without including the 
code for the search.  An example of what it is supposed to be is 
here: http://www.butchevans.com/pipermail/mikrotik/.  I have updated 
the template files in /usr/local/mailman/template/en/ and I thought 
this would fix the problem, but it does not appear to do so.

I am not certain if the problem occurs when a message is posted to 
the list or when the swish-e index is redone (I do this hourly via 
cron).  It appears, however, to happen on a new message post.  I 
just need a little assistance in finding how to determine which 
program is using the wrong template page and locating the particular 
template file that needs to be updated.  Any ideas?  FWIW, I updated 
to Mailman 2.1.11 today hoping that would fix the problem, but no 
joy.  :-(

-- 
********************************************************************
* Butch Evans			* Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/	* Network Engineering		   *
* http://www.wispa.org/		* WISPA Board Member		   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/	* Wired or Wireless Networks	   *
********************************************************************

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 24 02:28:51 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:28:51 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Template question..
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0811231840290.31035@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811231728510140b27b783f@msapiro>

Butch Evans wrote:
>
>Everything works exactly as expected, but there is one small 
>problem.  Every time a new message is posted to any list that 
>contains the updated template (which includes the search box), 
>mailman will overwrite the archive index page without including the 
>code for the search.  An example of what it is supposed to be is 
>here: http://www.butchevans.com/pipermail/mikrotik/.  I have updated 
>the template files in /usr/local/mailman/template/en/ and I thought 
>this would fix the problem, but it does not appear to do so.


You shouldn't edit /usr/local/mailman/template/en/* templates because
they will be overwritten in an upgrade. You should put the edited
templates in /usr/local/mailman/template/site/en/ (which you have to
create) as discussed in the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/jYA9>.

But that's not the cause of your problem. ArchRunner keeps a cache of
templates, so you need to restart Mailman or at least ArchRunner after
making any changes that affect archive templates. Did you do that?


>I am not certain if the problem occurs when a message is posted to 
>the list or when the swish-e index is redone (I do this hourly via 
>cron).  It appears, however, to happen on a new message post.  I 
>just need a little assistance in finding how to determine which 
>program is using the wrong template page and locating the particular 
>template file that needs to be updated.  Any ideas?  FWIW, I updated 
>to Mailman 2.1.11 today hoping that would fix the problem, but no 
>joy.  :-(


And did that upgrade replace your edited templates?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From butche at butchevans.com  Mon Nov 24 02:52:43 2008
From: butche at butchevans.com (Butch Evans)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:52:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Template question..
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811231728510140b27b783f@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811231728510140b27b783f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0811231932380.31035@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>You shouldn't edit /usr/local/mailman/template/en/* templates 
>because they will be overwritten in an upgrade. You should put the 
>edited templates in /usr/local/mailman/template/site/en/ (which you 
>have to create) as discussed in the FAQ at 
><http://wiki.list.org/x/jYA9>.

Ok.  I'll be sure to copy my changes over there.  The page I was 
using didn't state that.  I edited the page (it is a wiki) to 
indicate the requirements you suggested.  After testing the changes 
you suggested, my problem was solved.

>But that's not the cause of your problem. ArchRunner keeps a cache 
>of templates, so you need to restart Mailman or at least ArchRunner 
>after making any changes that affect archive templates. Did you do 
>that?

Hmm..Not until I upgraded.  I wonder if the problem still exists 
after I fixed the overwritten templates (I had forgotten to replace 
them with my updated templates until AFTER the restart).

>And did that upgrade replace your edited templates?

yes, but I had backups, which I put in the same place.  Thanks for 
the tip.  I truly appreciate your help.

-- 
********************************************************************
* Butch Evans			* Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/	* Network Engineering		   *
* http://www.wispa.org/		* WISPA Board Member		   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/	* Wired or Wireless Networks	   *
********************************************************************

From lists at damorris.com  Fri Nov 21 10:08:12 2008
From: lists at damorris.com (Adam Morris)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:08:12 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] messages appearing in html when set to txt.
Message-ID: <439FD1586EDC42CE9653837D9080818D@AdamMorris>

hi all.

I have two lists.

a member on both lists can only read messages if i send them from my mail client 
in txt.
she is on another mailman list run by someone else and can read all messages 
from that list.

does anyone know what setting may need to be changed on my lists?



Adam Morris

Secretary,
Blind Citizens Australia Computer Users Group

Phone, work, 02 8666 5753 (Monday to Thursday)

Mobile: 0414 431105


From t.singbartl at bis-school.com  Thu Nov 20 12:28:46 2008
From: t.singbartl at bis-school.com (Singbartl, Thomas)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:28:46 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass update settings of multiple lists
Message-ID: <F3330111A1B9BB479FEE51E5F8996610F0325E@errol.admin.bis-school.com>

Hi there,
we have mailman set up to generate (script-controlled) about 60 lists
out of our school management system. Now we figured we have to change
only one parameter, but on every list.
Is there an easy way to update just one setting on multiple lists?
Cheers,
Thomas

From t.terhorst at gmx.de  Sun Nov 23 17:29:14 2008
From: t.terhorst at gmx.de (Torsten Terhorst)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:29:14 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Failure to exec script. WANTED gid 67, GOT gid 12.
Message-ID: <004a01c94d88$a0645230$e12cf690$@terhorst@gmx.de>

Dear,

 

i get an error message when i send an email tot he mailman mailinglist:

 

Failure to exec script. WANTED gid 67, GOT gid 12.

 

Any idea what I can do?

 

Thank you.

 

 

King regards,

torsten


From webmaster at glug4muz.org  Sun Nov 23 18:09:01 2008
From: webmaster at glug4muz.org (webmaster at glug4muz.org)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 22:39:01 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to configure mailing list
Message-ID: <60388.127.0.0.1.1227460141.squirrel@host.b4uindia.net>

Hi all,
 I want to configure mailing list on my domain glug4muz.org. For this
first of all I created an email account with address
mailing_list at glug4muz.org. Then for testing purpose I sent a mail to this
email account from my personal email account pankaj at glug4muz.org. And the
mail was received in the email account mailing_list at glug4muz.org. Then I
created a mailing list from cpanel with name Mailing_List on the same
domain. Then in the General Options Section of administrative page of
this mailing list, I set the values of "list administrator email
addresses" as well as "list moderator email addresses" to the email
address mailing_list at glug4muz.org. I also set the values of some other
parameters such as "An introductory description" and "List-specific text
prepended to new-subscriber welcome message". I also checked the box
"Acknowledge the member's posting". Then I clicked on "Membership
Management" and then "Mass Subscriptions". Then I subscribed my email
address pankaj at glug4muz.org to this mailing list. And now when I am
sending email to mailing_list at glug4muz.org from my email address
pankaj at glug4muz.org then I am NOT getting that mail in email account
mailing_list at glug4muz.org. Even I clicked on "Go to the general list
information page" to go to the URL
http://glug4muz.org/mailman/listinfo/mailing_list_glug4muz.org and then
subscribed my email address pankaj at glug4muz.org to this mailing list. But
now I am NOT receiving any mail on the email address
mailing_list at glug4muz.org. So can any one please help me why mail is NOT
being received on the email address mailing_list at glug4muz.org after
setting this email address as "list administrator email addresses" as
well as "list moderator email addresses" of the mailing list? Please help
me soon so that I can start mailing list on my domain. I will remain
thankful to you all for this forever. You can even visit the
administrative section of this mailing list at the URL
http://glug4muz.org/mailman/admin/mailing_list_glug4muz.org/ with the
password 123456 and then configure it properly so that I can start
receiving mail on my email address mailing_list at glug4muz.org from the
members subscribed to this mailing list.


Best Regards ...
Pankaj Kumar



From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 24 04:18:56 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:18:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Failure to exec script. WANTED gid 67,
	GOT gid 12.
In-Reply-To: <004a01c94d88$a0645230$e12cf690$@terhorst@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <PC18702008112319185601873fd50b73@msapiro>

Torsten Terhorst wrote:
>
>i get an error message when i send an email tot he mailman mailinglist:
>
> 
>
>Failure to exec script. WANTED gid 67, GOT gid 12.


This appears to be a group mismatch error, but it is not the standard
GNU Mailman 2.1 message. It appears to be a Mailman 2.0 message

See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/LYA9> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/tYA9> for more information on group mismatch
errors.

What the message may be saying is the mail/mailman wrapper was compiled
(or is somehow told) to expect to be invoked by a process (the MTA)
running as group with gid 67, but it is being invoked as group with
gid 12.

How you fix it depends on your MTA and/or how you installed Mailman.

We may be able to help you further, but we'd need a lot more detail
about your Mailman installation and MTA.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 24 04:27:18 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:27:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to configure mailing list
In-Reply-To: <60388.127.0.0.1.1227460141.squirrel@host.b4uindia.net>
Message-ID: <PC18702008112319271808123fd50dbe@msapiro>

webmaster at glug4muz.org wrote:


> I want to configure mailing list on my domain glug4muz.org. For this
>first of all I created an email account with address
>mailing_list at glug4muz.org. Then for testing purpose I sent a mail to this
>email account from my personal email account pankaj at glug4muz.org. And the
>mail was received in the email account mailing_list at glug4muz.org. Then I
>created a mailing list from cpanel with name Mailing_List on the same
>domain.


User Mailboxes and Mailman lists can't have the same name.

See <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9> for info about cPanel support.



>You can even visit the
>administrative section of this mailing list at the URL
>http://glug4muz.org/mailman/admin/mailing_list_glug4muz.org/ with the
>password ...


I have changed your list password. I will send it to you privately. I
suggest you never again post a list admin password to a public mailing
list unless you want your list to be hijacked by spammers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 24 04:38:15 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:38:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] messages appearing in html when set to txt.
In-Reply-To: <439FD1586EDC42CE9653837D9080818D@AdamMorris>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811231938150234adeb44f9@msapiro>

Adam Morris wrote:
>
>a member on both lists can only read messages if i send them from my mail client 
>in txt.
>she is on another mailman list run by someone else and can read all messages 
>from that list.
>
>does anyone know what setting may need to be changed on my lists?


You would probably get the definitive answer to this from the owner of
that other list, but just as a wild guess, set the following in
Content filtering:

filter_content: Yes
	
filter_mime_types: Empty
	
pass_mime_types:
  multipart
  message/rfc822
  text/plain
  text/html

filter_filename_extensions: Defaults OK

pass_filename_extensions: Empty
	
collapse_alternatives: Yes

convert_html_to_plaintext: Yes
	


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 24 04:57:46 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:57:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass update settings of multiple lists
In-Reply-To: <F3330111A1B9BB479FEE51E5F8996610F0325E@errol.admin.bis-school.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811231957460921899a9287@msapiro>

Singbartl, Thomas wrote:
>
>we have mailman set up to generate (script-controlled) about 60 lists
>out of our school management system. Now we figured we have to change
>only one parameter, but on every list.
>Is there an easy way to update just one setting on multiple lists?


See the FAQ I just wrote on this at <http://wiki.list.org/x/MIBp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 24 05:26:23 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:26:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Template question..
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0811231932380.31035@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <PC18702008112320262309211c018130@msapiro>

Butch Evans wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>>But that's not the cause of your problem. ArchRunner keeps a cache 
>>of templates, so you need to restart Mailman or at least ArchRunner 
>>after making any changes that affect archive templates. Did you do 
>>that?
>
>Hmm..Not until I upgraded.  I wonder if the problem still exists 
>after I fixed the overwritten templates (I had forgotten to replace 
>them with my updated templates until AFTER the restart).


So by the time you replaced the overwritten templates, ArchRunner had
probably cached the ones from the 2.1.11 upgrade, so you still
need(ed) to restart Mailman with the edited templates in place,
preferably in /usr/local/mailman/templates/site/en so they won't be
overwritten again.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From butche at butchevans.com  Mon Nov 24 05:52:19 2008
From: butche at butchevans.com (Butch Evans)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 22:52:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Template question..
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008112320262309211c018130@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008112320262309211c018130@msapiro>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0811232250010.15095@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>So by the time you replaced the overwritten templates, ArchRunner 
>had probably cached the ones from the 2.1.11 upgrade, so you still 
>need(ed) to restart Mailman with the edited templates in place, 
>preferably in /usr/local/mailman/templates/site/en so they won't be 
>overwritten again.

Correct.  I have already moved the changed templates to the new 
(correct) location.  After that I restarted as you suggested and 
bada-BING!  Thanks again for your help.

P.S.
I bookmarked the FAQ again, too.  :-)  I should have looked for it, 
but didn't.  I guess after 16 years as an ISP, I can still act a 
little like a n00b.

-- 
********************************************************************
* Butch Evans			* Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/	* Network Engineering		   *
* http://www.wispa.org/		* WISPA Board Member		   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/	* Wired or Wireless Networks	   *
********************************************************************

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 24 16:21:56 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:21:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages shunted with "TypeError:
 decodingUnicode is not supported"
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200810292115140156eb6cb9aa@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200810292115140156eb6cb9aa@msapiro>
Message-ID: <492AC694.7090209@msapiro.net>

This is a follow up on last month's thread and some off list communication.

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> The config.pck is very interesting. Many member addresses are unicode
> and all real names are unicode. Also, there are funny real names in a
> few cases like
> 
> u'3847789951d66f4535b2fcf609aa85c05dfcf9c7'
> 
> u'e5bfabbbab467f03ef9f116c21360ddd84dd5fad'
> 
> and even in one case
> 
> u'd1a1f8fedaabf424728ae3e0255731ff45991e8d
> \r\nd1a1f8fedaabf424728ae3e0255731ff45991e8d
> \r\nd1a1f8fedaabf424728ae3e0255731ff45991e8d \r\n',
> 
> These look like confirmation tokens which maybe got pasted into the
> real name field in the web confirm page, but I don't know why they
> would be unicode in any case.
> 
> I won't have much time to look at this before next week, but I'll get
> back to you.


The above anomalies with confirmation tokens as real names appear to be
unrelated to the issue of unicode member addresses. Also, the fact that
the real names are unicode is normal.

I have looked at the code a few times, and I can't find any place where
a member address gets stored as unicode. It has clearly happened in your
case, and has apparently happened elsewhere, at least in the past as
bin/list_members has an option (--unicode or -u) to display members
whose addresses are unicode. That's been around since 2.1.3.

It would help me if you could perhaps do

bin/list_members -u moxiemail > some/file

to create a list of unicode members, and periodically check to see if
any new unicode members are added. I.e., is this an ongoing issue, or
are these members that were created under some older version.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Mon Nov 24 20:27:14 2008
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:27:14 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One private archive not appearing online - FIXED
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081120090222032892a584de@msapiro>
References: <PC187020081120090222032892a584de@msapiro>
Message-ID: <492B0012.7070101@washburn.edu>

I realized that I was actually missing mylist in the private archives.  
Once I issued bin/arch mylist it successfully rebuilt the archive.  Thanks!

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu wrote:
>
>   
>> I am wanting to rebuild an archive but when I issue the following
>> command either as mailman or root:
>>
>> bin/arch --wipe mylist
>> /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist.mbox/mylist.mbox
>>
>> I get the following error:
>>
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>  File "./arch", line 200, in ?
>>    main()
>>  File "./arch", line 177, in main
>>    shutil.rmtree(mlist.archive_dir())
>>  File "/usr/lib/python2.4/shutil.py", line 155, in rmtree
>>    onerror(os.listdir, path, sys.exc_info())
>>  File "/usr/lib/python2.4/shutil.py", line 153, in rmtree
>>    names = os.listdir(path)
>> OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
>> '/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist'
>>
>> I believe this one archive has not been working for a very long time. 
>> The permissions are:
>> drwxrwsr-x   2 mailman mailman   4096 Nov 19 12:11 .
>> drwxrws--x 200 mailman mailman  12288 Nov 19 12:14 ..
>> -rw-rw-r--   1 mailman mailman 502357 Sep  1 04:00 mylist
>>     
>
>
> /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist should be a directory, not a
> file.
>
> First make sure that
> /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist.mbox/mylist.mbox looks like
> it actually contains all the archived messages. Then look at
> /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist and see what it is. If you
> think you might want to keep it,
>
>  mv /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist somewhere/else
>
> otherwise, just
>
>  rm /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist
>
> Then do
>
>  bin/arch mylist
>
> without the --wipe option. You also don't need to specify
> /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/mylist.mbox/mylist.mbox as the
> input as that is the defauly for 'mylist'.
>
>   

From jumper99 at gmx.de  Tue Nov 25 11:55:10 2008
From: jumper99 at gmx.de (Helmut Schneider)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:55:10 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
Message-ID: <1996297B3A424C3E9116D1FB8D6E4992@vpe.de>

Hi,

I have lots of problems with out-of-office replies. I tried to set up a few 
filter rules using 2.1.10. Unfortuantely they don't catch them. Are the 
expressions case sensitiv? Are the expressions basic or extended?

What I tried yet:

^subject:.*Accepted.*
^subject:.*Declined.*
^subject:.*is out of office.*

Thanks, Helmut 


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 26 05:12:03 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:12:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
In-Reply-To: <1996297B3A424C3E9116D1FB8D6E4992@vpe.de>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811252012030147f96d2c96@msapiro>

Helmut Schneider wrote:
>
>I have lots of problems with out-of-office replies. I tried to set up a few 
>filter rules using 2.1.10. Unfortuantely they don't catch them. Are the 
>expressions case sensitiv? Are the expressions basic or extended?
>
>What I tried yet:
>
>^subject:.*Accepted.*
>^subject:.*Declined.*
>^subject:.*is out of office.*


There are two different filters at # Privacy options... ->Spam filters,
and they work differently.

The more flexible of the two is header_filter_rules. For
header_filter_rules the regexps are matched against a multi-line
string containing all the unfolded headers in the message, both
message headers and sub-part headers. The regexp is a python regexp
<http://docs.python.org/library/re.html#regular-expression-syntax> and
the headers are searched
<http://docs.python.org/library/re.html#re.search> for a match of the
regexp in MULTILINE and IGNORECASE mode. This means the '^' matches
the beginning of the string or the null character immediately
following a newline and the match is case insensitive. Thus your above
expressions look good.

The other is bounce_matching_headers which works differently. It
expects a header name followed by a colon followed by a regexp to
match against the contents of that header - e.g.

subject:is out of office

would match any subject: header that contained 'is out of office'. This
match too is case insensitive.

Also, with bounce_matching_headers, you can't specify an action. The
action is always 'Hold'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From joehall at gmail.com  Mon Nov 24 20:47:55 2008
From: joehall at gmail.com (Joseph Lorenzo Hall)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:47:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] *not* sending attachments through to the list but
	keeping them in the archives...
Message-ID: <928946aa0811241147i5bcbc9b2l9667c86ada79c6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, I did my due diligence and scoured the interwebs for a solution to
my "problem", and came across this:

http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg24698.html

This is a response to someone who wanted to do what I want to do: I'd
like no attachments to go out to the list via email but have the
attachments available in the archive. (most people on the list do not
want attachments but a few insist that they are necessary... so I'd
like these few to be able to get their "fix" by logging into the
archives.)

If I read the response above correctly, the responder seems to advise
setting up two lists with the same recipients on both (one ending in
`-archive`), setting up two postfix aliases that 1) sends to the list
via mailman and executes the archive alias and 2) sends to the archive
list and then modifying the two lists configurations such that the
first has strict content filtering and the second has no content
filtering but does archive.

Does that seem like a good, if long-winded, interpretation of how I
should do this? best, Joe

-- 
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
ACCURATE Postdoctoral Research Associate
UC Berkeley School of Information
Princeton Center for Information Technology Policy
http://josephhall.org/

From namonai at gmail.com  Tue Nov 25 18:40:36 2008
From: namonai at gmail.com (Craig Kelley)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:40:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All Lists Shunted
Message-ID: <847993120811250940x559d70dh6077f3fcfd9c871e@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Everyone;

After upgrading to 2.1.11, all email is being "shunted" with this error message:

v 25 10:32:19 2008 (3944) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130,
in _dispose
    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153,
in _dopipeline
    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/AvoidDuplicates.py", line
39, in process
    recips = msgdata['recips']
KeyError: recips

Nov 25 10:32:19 2008 (32088) Uncaught runner exception: 'module'
object has no attribute 'process'
Nov 25 10:32:19 2008 (32088) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130,
in _dispose
    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153,
in _dopipeline
    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'process'

Nov 25 10:32:19 2008 (32088) SHUNTING:
1227562048.9204731+b9fba2b13960cde7e402f9f5f2a18a299315bf96

Can I safely go back to 2.1.9?  It yells at me if I attempt to.

Thanks;

  -Craig

-- 
http://inconnu.islug.org/~ink finger ink at inconnu.islug.org for PGP block

From t.singbartl at bis-school.com  Mon Nov 24 12:37:14 2008
From: t.singbartl at bis-school.com (Singbartl, Thomas)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:37:14 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass update settings of multiple lists
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811231957460921899a9287@msapiro>
References: <F3330111A1B9BB479FEE51E5F8996610F0325E@errol.admin.bis-school.com>
	<PC1870200811231957460921899a9287@msapiro>
Message-ID: <F3330111A1B9BB479FEE51E5F8996610F033F9@errol.admin.bis-school.com>

Wow, thanks, that was easy and saved a lot of time.
Cheers,
Thomas

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net] 
Gesendet: Montag, 24. November 2008 04:58
An: Singbartl, Thomas; mailman-users at python.org
Betreff: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mass update settings of multiple lists

Singbartl, Thomas wrote:
>
>we have mailman set up to generate (script-controlled) about 60 lists 
>out of our school management system. Now we figured we have to change 
>only one parameter, but on every list.
>Is there an easy way to update just one setting on multiple lists?


See the FAQ I just wrote on this at <http://wiki.list.org/x/MIBp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 26 05:46:03 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:46:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] *not* sending attachments through to the list
	butkeeping them in the archives...
In-Reply-To: <928946aa0811241147i5bcbc9b2l9667c86ada79c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811252046030084f3c7ba17@msapiro>

Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote:

>Hi, I did my due diligence and scoured the interwebs for a solution to
>my "problem", and came across this:
>
>http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg24698.html
>
>This is a response to someone who wanted to do what I want to do: I'd
>like no attachments to go out to the list via email but have the
>attachments available in the archive.


If you have Mailman 2.1.6 or later, set scrub_nondigest to Yes on the
Non-digest options page. If your Mailman is older than that, it's time
to upgrade.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 26 06:04:44 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:04:44 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All Lists Shunted
In-Reply-To: <847993120811250940x559d70dh6077f3fcfd9c871e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811252104440194f3c7baae@msapiro>

Craig Kelley wrote:
>
>After upgrading to 2.1.11, all email is being "shunted" with this error message:
>
>v 25 10:32:19 2008 (3944) Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
>    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
>    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130,
>in _dispose
>    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153,
>in _dopipeline
>    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/AvoidDuplicates.py", line
>39, in process
>    recips = msgdata['recips']
>KeyError: recips


Something is very wrong with your installation. In the normal pipeline
(GLOBAL_PIPELINE in Defaults.py), CalcRecips precedes AvoidDuplicates
and CalcRecips always sets msgdata['recips']



>Nov 25 10:32:19 2008 (32088) Uncaught runner exception: 'module'
>object has no attribute 'process'
>Nov 25 10:32:19 2008 (32088) Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
>    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
>    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130,
>in _dispose
>    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153,
>in _dopipeline
>    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'process'


And this is just wierd. The KeyError above should cause the message to
be shunted and that should be it. Why are we still processing the
pipeline and what's in the pipeline that has no process attribute?
(rhetorical question)


>Nov 25 10:32:19 2008 (32088) SHUNTING:
>1227562048.9204731+b9fba2b13960cde7e402f9f5f2a18a299315bf96
>
>Can I safely go back to 2.1.9?  It yells at me if I attempt to.


If it's only bin/update at the very end that complains, you're already
back. I don't recall offhand if make install complains. I'm also not
certain it's OK to downgrade from 2.1.11 to 2.1.9, but of course, if
you backed up your 2.1.9 installation, you can just restore it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 26 06:11:28 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:11:28 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All Lists Shunted
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811252104440194f3c7baae@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811252111280928f3c7bd7c@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>And this is just wierd. The KeyError above should cause the message to
>be shunted and that should be it. Why are we still processing the
>pipeline and what's in the pipeline that has no process attribute?
>(rhetorical question)
>
>
>>Nov 25 10:32:19 2008 (32088) SHUNTING:
>>1227562048.9204731+b9fba2b13960cde7e402f9f5f2a18a299315bf96


If you do

bin/dumpdb
qfiles/shunt/1227562048.9204731+b9fba2b13960cde7e402f9f5f2a18a299315bf96.pck

(that should be one line), what is in the second object (the message
metadata)?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jumper99 at gmx.de  Wed Nov 26 10:40:20 2008
From: jumper99 at gmx.de (Helmut Schneider)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:40:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
References: <PC1870200811252012030147f96d2c96@msapiro>
Message-ID: <5A7B0DB66391443FB235CE6C6ADE3F88@vpe.de>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net>
To: "Helmut Schneider" <jumper99 at gmx.de>; <mailman-users at python.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex 
> Helmut Schneider wrote:
>> 
>> I have lots of problems with out-of-office replies. I tried to set up
>> a few  filter rules using 2.1.10. Unfortuantely they don't catch them.
>> Are the  expressions case sensitiv? Are the expressions basic or
>> extended? 
>> What I tried yet:
>> 
>> ^subject:.*Accepted.*
>> ^subject:.*Declined.*
>> ^subject:.*is out of office.*
> 
> 
> There are two different filters at # Privacy options... ->Spam filters,
> and they work differently.
> 
> The more flexible of the two is header_filter_rules. For
> header_filter_rules the regexps are matched against a multi-line
> string containing all the unfolded headers in the message, both
> message headers and sub-part headers. The regexp is a python regexp
> <http://docs.python.org/library/re.html#regular-expression-syntax> and
> the headers are searched
> <http://docs.python.org/library/re.html#re.search> for a match of the
> regexp in MULTILINE and IGNORECASE mode. This means the '^' matches
> the beginning of the string or the null character immediately
> following a newline and the match is case insensitive. Thus your above
> expressions look good.

That's weird. Messages still pass with e.g.

Subject: [Somelist] Declined:  Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008

in the Header. Do I need to escape the colon? Or something else?

Thanks, Helmut

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 26 15:53:27 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 06:53:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All Lists Shunted
In-Reply-To: <847993120811260527i7a1eea38ifedcb83b805a8901@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008112606532704377c4ba9d0@msapiro>

Craig Kelley wrote:

>On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:11 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> bin/dumpdb
>> qfiles/shunt/1227562048.9204731+b9fba2b13960cde7e402f9f5f2a18a299315bf96.pck
>>
>> (that should be one line), what is in the second object (the message
>> metadata)?
>
>Mark-
>
>I upgraded Python to 2.5 and it solved the problem.  Would you still
>like me to send you that information for debugging purposes?


Not unless your previous Python version was 2.4. See the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/pYA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From phanh at canby.k12.or.us  Wed Nov 26 18:38:59 2008
From: phanh at canby.k12.or.us (Hung Phan)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:38:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Import list of users with moderated setting
Message-ID: <2C873F3F-4062-486F-850E-196310BF3FF4@canby.k12.or.us>

Hello, folks

We try to import a list with members that are moderated for not-send.  
We look at options for list_members and not see one specifically for  
preserve moderated setting. Is the setting stores somewhere and can be  
backup? Going through 3000 users to set the moderated bit doesn't  
sound fun :)

We using Mac OS 10.5

Thank you in advance for any advice,

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 27 00:04:09 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:04:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Import list of users with moderated setting
In-Reply-To: <2C873F3F-4062-486F-850E-196310BF3FF4@canby.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811261504090687a274f1f8@msapiro>



----- Original Message ---------------

Subject: [Mailman-Users] Import list of users with moderated setting
   From: Hung Phan <phanh at canby.k12.or.us>
   Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:38:59 -0800
     To: mailman-users at python.org

>Hello, folks
>
>We try to import a list with members that are moderated for not-send.  
>We look at options for list_members and not see one specifically for  
>preserve moderated setting. Is the setting stores somewhere and can be  
>backup? Going through 3000 users to set the moderated bit doesn't  
>sound fun :)


If you set     *  Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
default_member_moderation to Yes, new members will be moderated by
default.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 27 00:21:34 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:21:34 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
In-Reply-To: <5A7B0DB66391443FB235CE6C6ADE3F88@vpe.de>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811261521340734c41570c0@msapiro>

Helmut Schneider wrote:

> Mark Sapiro wrote:

>> Helmut Schneider wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have lots of problems with out-of-office replies. I tried to set up
>>> a few  filter rules using 2.1.10. Unfortuantely they don't catch them.
>>> Are the  expressions case sensitiv? Are the expressions basic or
>>> extended? 
>>> What I tried yet:
>>> 
>>> ^subject:.*Accepted.*
>>> ^subject:.*Declined.*
>>> ^subject:.*is out of office.*
>> 
>> 
>> There are two different filters at # Privacy options... ->Spam filters,
>> and they work differently.
>> 
>> The more flexible of the two is header_filter_rules. For
>> header_filter_rules the regexps are matched against a multi-line
>> string containing all the unfolded headers in the message, both
>> message headers and sub-part headers. The regexp is a python regexp
>> <http://docs.python.org/library/re.html#regular-expression-syntax> and
>> the headers are searched
>> <http://docs.python.org/library/re.html#re.search> for a match of the
>> regexp in MULTILINE and IGNORECASE mode. This means the '^' matches
>> the beginning of the string or the null character immediately
>> following a newline and the match is case insensitive. Thus your above
>> expressions look good.
>
>That's weird. Messages still pass with e.g.
>
>Subject: [Somelist] Declined:  Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008
>
>in the Header. Do I need to escape the colon? Or something else?


I just tested a rule with the three regexps

^subject:.*Accepted.*
^subject:.*Declined.*
^subject:.*is out of office.*

copied from your post and Action set to Reject, and a message with

Subject: [Somelist] Declined:  Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008

was rejected for matching the rule. Perhaps you didn't set the rule
action. Note that Action = Defer does not mean defer the post; it
means defer the rule - i.e. don't enforce it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Thu Nov 27 01:09:28 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:09:28 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811261521340734c41570c0@msapiro>
References: <5A7B0DB66391443FB235CE6C6ADE3F88@vpe.de>
	<PC1870200811261521340734c41570c0@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20081127000940.0F40FFA092@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi friends.

>^subject:.*is out of office.*

I just added this rule as a "Reject" since we have had a few of these come to the list lately.
^subject:.*out of office.*

Would folks be willing to share the rules they have developed that would apply to general business lists? We have not had any problems with spam, as our list is very tight. This would be for accidental or automated sendings.

Also, what does the sender receive upon rejection? I am hesitant to test lest something accidentally gets through. 

Is the list owner notified of these spam filter rejections? Are the spam rules applied after testing for list membership?


- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 27 01:23:20 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:23:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
In-Reply-To: <20081127000940.0F40FFA092@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020081126162320023407eeeebe@msapiro>

Michael Welch wrote:
>
>>^subject:.*is out of office.*
>
>I just added this rule as a "Reject" since we have had a few of these come to the list lately.
>^subject:.*out of office.*
>
>Would folks be willing to share the rules they have developed that would apply to general business lists? We have not had any problems with spam, as our list is very tight. This would be for accidental or automated sendings.
>
>Also, what does the sender receive upon rejection? I am hesitant to test lest something accidentally gets through. 


That's what test lists are for ;)

The post is send back to the poster attached to a message with the
original subject which says "Message rejected by filter rule match".


>Is the list owner notified of these spam filter rejections?


No


>Are the spam rules applied after testing for list membership?


No. in the default pipeline, header_filter_rules are the first thing
done, even before checking for an Approved: header.

OTOH, bounce_matching_headers are not checked until after membership
checks.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jumper99 at gmx.de  Thu Nov 27 10:31:53 2008
From: jumper99 at gmx.de (Helmut Schneider)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:31:53 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
Message-ID: <F803068E6AEF451795D870A3DA0E231D@vpe.de>

>> Helmut Schneider wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have lots of problems with out-of-office replies. I tried to set up
>>> a few  filter rules using 2.1.10. Unfortuantely they don't catch them.
>>> Are the  expressions case sensitiv? Are the expressions basic or
>>> extended? 
>>> What I tried yet:
>>> 
>>> ^subject:.*Accepted.*
>>> ^subject:.*Declined.*
>>> ^subject:.*is out of office.*
>> 
>> 
>> There are two different filters at # Privacy options... ->Spam filters,
>> and they work differently.
>> 
>> The more flexible of the two is header_filter_rules. For
>> header_filter_rules the regexps are matched against a multi-line
>> string containing all the unfolded headers in the message, both
>> message headers and sub-part headers. The regexp is a python regexp
>> <http://docs.python.org/library/re.html#regular-expression-syntax> and
>> the headers are searched
>> <http://docs.python.org/library/re.html#re.search> for a match of the
>> regexp in MULTILINE and IGNORECASE mode. This means the '^' matches
>> the beginning of the string or the null character immediately
>> following a newline and the match is case insensitive. Thus your above
>> expressions look good.
> 
> That's weird. Messages still pass with e.g.
> 
> Subject: [Somelist] Declined:  Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008
> 
> in the Header. Do I need to escape the colon? Or something else?

Interesting, with "^subject:.*Declined.*"

Subject: Declined: [Somelist] Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008

matches while

Subject: [Somelist] Declined:  Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008

does not. Huh?!

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 27 16:09:45 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 07:09:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
In-Reply-To: <F803068E6AEF451795D870A3DA0E231D@vpe.de>
Message-ID: <PC187020081127070945057880041f6f@msapiro>

Helmut Schneider wrote:
>
>Interesting, with "^subject:.*Declined.*"
>
>Subject: Declined: [Somelist] Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008
>
>matches while
>
>Subject: [Somelist] Declined:  Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008
>
>does not. Huh?!


It turns out that RFC 2047 encoded headers are not decoded before
matching against the regexps. Is that the issue here? What do the raw
headers look like?

I think that the headers should be decoded, but I wonder if people are
currently working around this with regexps that match encoded headers
and wouldn't match decoded headers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From ricardo at americasnet.com  Thu Nov 27 18:41:13 2008
From: ricardo at americasnet.com (Ricardo Kleemann)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:41:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] performance tuning
In-Reply-To: <F3330111A1B9BB479FEE51E5F8996610F033F9@errol.admin.bis-school.com>
References: <F3330111A1B9BB479FEE51E5F8996610F0325E@errol.admin.bis-school.com>
	<PC1870200811231957460921899a9287@msapiro>
	<F3330111A1B9BB479FEE51E5F8996610F033F9@errol.admin.bis-school.com>
Message-ID: <1227807673.6858.157.camel@laptop1>

Hi,

I have a couple of lists with 20,000 members each.

How can I tune mailman to improve delivery performance? I know that some
list managers lump users by domain in order to more efficiently deliver.

What sorts of configuration can I do to help improve performance?

Thanks
Ricardo


From cpz at tuunq.com  Thu Nov 27 20:17:47 2008
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:17:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] performance tuning
In-Reply-To: <1227807673.6858.157.camel@laptop1> from Ricardo Kleemann at "Nov
	27, 2008 09:41:13 am"
Message-ID: <20081127191747.F18387AE@mail.tuunq.com>

In a flurry of recycled electrons, Ricardo Kleemann wrote:

> What sorts of configuration can I do to help improve performance?

A quick search of the FAQ will turn up a number of interesting pages 
on this.

z!


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 27 21:20:48 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 12:20:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081127070945057880041f6f@msapiro>
References: <PC187020081127070945057880041f6f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <492F0120.503@msapiro.net>

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Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Helmut Schneider wrote:
>> Interesting, with "^subject:.*Declined.*"
>>
>> Subject: Declined: [Somelist] Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008
>>
>> matches while
>>
>> Subject: [Somelist] Declined:  Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008
>>
>> does not. Huh?!
> 
> 
> It turns out that RFC 2047 encoded headers are not decoded before
> matching against the regexps. Is that the issue here? What do the raw
> headers look like?
> 
> I think that the headers should be decoded, but I wonder if people are
> currently working around this with regexps that match encoded headers
> and wouldn't match decoded headers.


I have developed a patch for SpamDetect.py which will decode RFC 2047
encoded headers. This is somewhat problematic because the decoded
headers will presumably contain non-ascii characters, and while the
character sets of the headers are known (and there can be different
headers or even different parts of a single header encoded in different
character sets), the character set of the regexps in header_filter_rules
is not known.

The patch creates a unicode object containing all the headers unfolded
and RFC 2047 decoded with one complete header per line and then encodes
it into the character set of the list's preferred_language, and this
result is what the regexps will search. As long as the regexps contain
only ascii and the raw headers contain no non-ascii characters, this
should give expected results. If the regexps contain non-ascii
characters or the headers contain non-ascii not RFC 2047 encoded,
results may be unexpected.

If in fact, the original issue is due to RFC 2047 encoded headers, try
the patch and let us know how it works.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From jumper99 at gmx.de  Fri Nov 28 16:24:11 2008
From: jumper99 at gmx.de (Helmut Schneider)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:24:11 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
References: <PC187020081127070945057880041f6f@msapiro>
	<492F0120.503@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <2A875817C66E460893522A0A9F212D62@vpe.de>

From: "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net>
>> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> Helmut Schneider wrote:
>>>> Interesting, with "^subject:.*Declined.*"
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Declined: [Somelist] Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008
>>>>
>>>> matches while
>>>>
>>>> Subject: [Somelist] Declined:  Invitation to workshop on 13rd Dec. 2008
>>>>
>>>> does not. Huh?!
>>>
>>>
>>> It turns out that RFC 2047 encoded headers are not decoded before
>>> matching against the regexps. Is that the issue here? What do the raw
>>> headers look like?
>>>
>>> I think that the headers should be decoded, but I wonder if people are
>>> currently working around this with regexps that match encoded headers
>>> and wouldn't match decoded headers.
>>
>>
>> I have developed a patch for SpamDetect.py which will decode RFC 2047
>> encoded headers. This is somewhat problematic because the decoded
>> headers will presumably contain non-ascii characters, and while the
>> character sets of the headers are known (and there can be different
>> headers or even different parts of a single header encoded in different
>> character sets), the character set of the regexps in header_filter_rules
>> is not known.
>>
>> The patch creates a unicode object containing all the headers unfolded
>> and RFC 2047 decoded with one complete header per line and then encodes
>> it into the character set of the list's preferred_language, and this
>> result is what the regexps will search. As long as the regexps contain
>> only ascii and the raw headers contain no non-ascii characters, this
>> should give expected results. If the regexps contain non-ascii
>> characters or the headers contain non-ascii not RFC 2047 encoded,
>> results may be unexpected.
>>
>> If in fact, the original issue is due to RFC 2047 encoded headers, try
>> the patch and let us know how it works.

As far as I can see this patch works great. As a positive side effect, is it 
possible that this patch also affects uncaught bounces? I recieve lots of 
uncaught bounces now where a SPAM-filter was required before the patch.

Thanks a lot, Helmut 


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 28 17:02:03 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 08:02:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] privacy options, SPAM, regex
In-Reply-To: <2A875817C66E460893522A0A9F212D62@vpe.de>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811280802030156409e279f@msapiro>

Helmut Schneider wrote:
>
>As far as I can see this patch works great. As a positive side effect, is it 
>possible that this patch also affects uncaught bounces? I recieve lots of 
>uncaught bounces now where a SPAM-filter was required before the patch.


No. The patch has absolutely no effect on uncaught bounces. Uncaught
bounces are messages sent to a LIST-bounces address that are not
VERPed and are not recognized as DSNs. If spam is sent to a
LIST-bounces address and makes it to Mailman, it will be an
unrecognized bounce. SpamDetect.py and header_filter_rules are not
involved at all in processing mail received at a LIST-bounces address.

Any change you observed in uncaught bounces is just a coincidence.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From ricardo at americasnet.com  Fri Nov 28 17:54:43 2008
From: ricardo at americasnet.com (Ricardo Kleemann)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 08:54:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?
Message-ID: <1227891283.6858.214.camel@laptop1>

Hi,

I'm having some problems with my lists recently. I see in my mail log
that "mailman post" has been called. However, when I look in the
logs/post file, it's been almost 24 hours since anything has been
written there.

I'm running mailman on Ubuntu Hardy, and another weird thing is that
whenever I stop mailman, it always leaves at least one process hanging
around. I have to forcefully kill it. After I stop it, I still see:

list      3833  0.0  0.4  83076  7540 ?        Ss   08:29
0:00 /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
list      3842  0.1  2.5 105372 38148 ?        S    08:29
0:01 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s

Even more strange when I reboot the machine, I'll see 2 entire sets of
mailman processes, almost as if the mailman start had been called twice.

In any case, right now it seems that mailman has stopped accepting
posts. Is there a way to get more debug from mailman when "mailman post"
is called? I don't see any errors, yet I don't see the post log file
updating.

Ricardo



From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 28 18:43:00 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:43:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?
In-Reply-To: <1227891283.6858.214.camel@laptop1>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811280943000250c25f6eba@msapiro>

Ricardo Kleemann wrote:
>
>I'm having some problems with my lists recently. I see in my mail log
>that "mailman post" has been called. However, when I look in the
>logs/post file, it's been almost 24 hours since anything has been
>written there.


The post log is written by SMTPDirect (under control of OutgoingRunner)
when the outgoing message is delivered to the MTA.

>I'm running mailman on Ubuntu Hardy, and another weird thing is that
>whenever I stop mailman, it always leaves at least one process hanging
>around. I have to forcefully kill it. After I stop it, I still see:
>
>list      3833  0.0  0.4  83076  7540 ?        Ss   08:29
>0:00 /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
>list      3842  0.1  2.5 105372 38148 ?        S    08:29
>0:01 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
>--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s


It appears that SMTPDirect (actually the underlying Python smtplib) is
hung waiting for a response from the MTA that isn't coming.


>Even more strange when I reboot the machine, I'll see 2 entire sets of
>mailman processes, almost as if the mailman start had been called twice.


It seems like you have two init scripts for Mailman.


>In any case, right now it seems that mailman has stopped accepting
>posts. Is there a way to get more debug from mailman when "mailman post"
>is called? I don't see any errors, yet I don't see the post log file
>updating.


"mailman post" just puts the message in the in/ queue. I assume from
what you say above that it gets processed by IncomingRunner and even
archived and the problem is in OutgoingRunner.

See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/-IA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From ricardo at americasnet.com  Fri Nov 28 19:05:46 2008
From: ricardo at americasnet.com (Ricardo Kleemann)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:05:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811280943000250c25f6eba@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811280943000250c25f6eba@msapiro>
Message-ID: <1227895546.6858.234.camel@laptop1>

Hello Mark,

Thanks for your reply.


> >I'm running mailman on Ubuntu Hardy, and another weird thing is that
> >whenever I stop mailman, it always leaves at least one process hanging
> >around. I have to forcefully kill it. After I stop it, I still see:
> >
> >list      3833  0.0  0.4  83076  7540 ?        Ss   08:29
> >0:00 /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
> >list      3842  0.1  2.5 105372 38148 ?        S    08:29
> >0:01 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
> >--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
> 
> 
> It appears that SMTPDirect (actually the underlying Python smtplib) is
> hung waiting for a response from the MTA that isn't coming.
> 

But the strange thing here is that I have no issues at all connecting to
the smtp server at localhost. Defaults.py has the standard config, using
localhost with SMTPDirect.

Whatever the OutgoingRunner is stuck on, it's definitely stuck. It won't
go away unless I do a kill -9

> 
> >Even more strange when I reboot the machine, I'll see 2 entire sets of
> >mailman processes, almost as if the mailman start had been called twice.
> 
> 
> It seems like you have two init scripts for Mailman.
> 
I would have thought so... but there's only 1 script under /etc/init.d/
and no other scripts there reference mailman

> 
> >In any case, right now it seems that mailman has stopped accepting
> >posts. Is there a way to get more debug from mailman when "mailman post"
> >is called? I don't see any errors, yet I don't see the post log file
> >updating.
> 
> 
> "mailman post" just puts the message in the in/ queue. I assume from
> what you say above that it gets processed by IncomingRunner and even
> archived and the problem is in OutgoingRunner.
> 
> See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9> and
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/-IA9>.
> 

I can see that the in queue is probably working. There are currently 129
files in the out/ queue.

There are 2 OutgoingRunner processes and apparently BOTH of them are
doing something because strace does show some activity

Process 14078 attached - interrupt to quit
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok. 0000000049303165.000045C"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
= 35
sendto(7, "mail FROM:<reflexoes3-bounces at li"..., 65, 0, NULL, 0) = 65
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<chitopan_2000 at yahoo.com"..., 35, 0, NULL, 0) = 35
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<bernadete.sorianoadv at gm"..., 42, 0, NULL, 0) = 42
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<iviv_8a at hotmail.com>\r\n", 31, 0, NULL, 0) = 31
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(7, "data\r\n", 6, 0, NULL, 0)    = 6
recvfrom(7, "354 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(7, "Received: from sr05-01.mta.terra"..., 8256, 0, NULL, 0) =
8256
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok. 0000000049303172.000045D"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
= 35


root at email1:/var/lib/mailman# strace -p13800
Process 13800 attached - interrupt to quit
recvfrom(8, "250 Ok. 00000000493031A7.0000464"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
= 35
sendto(8, "mail FROM:<reflexoes3-bounces at li"..., 65, 0, NULL, 0) = 65
recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<fesayao at gmail.com>\r\n", 29, 0, NULL, 0) = 29
recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<bruno8d at hotmail.com>\r\n", 31, 0, NULL, 0) = 31
recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<evangelismoemissoes at hot"..., 43, 0, NULL, 0) = 43
recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(8, "data\r\n", 6, 0, NULL, 0)    = 6
recvfrom(8, "354 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9


Yet even though it's being processed, the logs/post file isn't getting
updated, and the number of messages in out/ doesn't decrease.

Could this be because mailman is processing a very large list (20,000
members) and it is just stuck on processing one message, while the other
messages wait around?

But I've been handling these lists for a long time and never had these
problems. Mailman doesn't seem to be getting much cpu usage. 




From ricardo at americasnet.com  Fri Nov 28 19:23:32 2008
From: ricardo at americasnet.com (Ricardo Kleemann)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:23:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811280943000250c25f6eba@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811280943000250c25f6eba@msapiro>
Message-ID: <1227896612.6858.243.camel@laptop1>

I have some more data on this...

I enabled the debug in SMTPDirect.py, and it shows that there really
aren't any problems. It shows that slowly a message is being sent out.

I followed the performance tuning suggestions that had the MAX_RCPTS in
Defaults.py at an optimal value from 2-5, so I set it to 3.

But does that mean that mailman is going to simply get stuck on one
single message distribution and won't process any others until this one
is finished?

I used to have these lists on another server and over there I had the
MAX_RCPTS set to a high number, but my mail server is set to reject
above 25 rcpts anyway so the end result that at max it would handle 25
rcpts. I remember that whenever a message arrived for the list (again
20,000 members) on the other server, the load average on the server
would go pretty high as it processed the list.

But now on this new server I never see the load avg go up. Is this
because of the MAX_RCPTS setting? What else would keep mailman from
efficiently handling the messages? 

The OutgoingRunner is just sitting there slowly distributing the message
and never seems to get to the next one.

On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 09:43 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Ricardo Kleemann wrote:
> >
> >I'm having some problems with my lists recently. I see in my mail log
> >that "mailman post" has been called. However, when I look in the
> >logs/post file, it's been almost 24 hours since anything has been
> >written there.
> 
> 
> The post log is written by SMTPDirect (under control of OutgoingRunner)
> when the outgoing message is delivered to the MTA.
> 
> >I'm running mailman on Ubuntu Hardy, and another weird thing is that
> >whenever I stop mailman, it always leaves at least one process hanging
> >around. I have to forcefully kill it. After I stop it, I still see:
> >
> >list      3833  0.0  0.4  83076  7540 ?        Ss   08:29
> >0:00 /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
> >list      3842  0.1  2.5 105372 38148 ?        S    08:29
> >0:01 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
> >--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
> 
> 
> It appears that SMTPDirect (actually the underlying Python smtplib) is
> hung waiting for a response from the MTA that isn't coming.
> 
> 
> >Even more strange when I reboot the machine, I'll see 2 entire sets of
> >mailman processes, almost as if the mailman start had been called twice.
> 
> 
> It seems like you have two init scripts for Mailman.
> 
> 
> >In any case, right now it seems that mailman has stopped accepting
> >posts. Is there a way to get more debug from mailman when "mailman post"
> >is called? I don't see any errors, yet I don't see the post log file
> >updating.
> 
> 
> "mailman post" just puts the message in the in/ queue. I assume from
> what you say above that it gets processed by IncomingRunner and even
> archived and the problem is in OutgoingRunner.
> 
> See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9> and
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/-IA9>.
> 


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 28 19:27:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:27:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?
In-Reply-To: <1227895546.6858.234.camel@laptop1>
Message-ID: <PC18702008112810271203280aec1b94@msapiro>

Ricardo Kleemann wrote:

>Hello Mark,
>
>Thanks for your reply.
>
>
>> >I'm running mailman on Ubuntu Hardy, and another weird thing is that
>> >whenever I stop mailman, it always leaves at least one process hanging
>> >around. I have to forcefully kill it. After I stop it, I still see:
>> >
>> >list      3833  0.0  0.4  83076  7540 ?        Ss   08:29
>> >0:00 /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
>> >list      3842  0.1  2.5 105372 38148 ?        S    08:29
>> >0:01 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
>> >--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s


Note that the above "--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1" indicates that
OutgoingRunner is not sliced - more below.


>> It appears that SMTPDirect (actually the underlying Python smtplib) is
>> hung waiting for a response from the MTA that isn't coming.
>> 
>
>But the strange thing here is that I have no issues at all connecting to
>the smtp server at localhost. Defaults.py has the standard config, using
>localhost with SMTPDirect.


What do you see in Mailman's smtp-failure log.


>Whatever the OutgoingRunner is stuck on, it's definitely stuck. It won't
>go away unless I do a kill -9
>
>> 
>> >Even more strange when I reboot the machine, I'll see 2 entire sets of
>> >mailman processes, almost as if the mailman start had been called twice.
>> 
>> 
>> It seems like you have two init scripts for Mailman.
>> 
>I would have thought so... but there's only 1 script under /etc/init.d/
>and no other scripts there reference mailman


Well, something is starting Mailman twice.


>> >In any case, right now it seems that mailman has stopped accepting
>> >posts. Is there a way to get more debug from mailman when "mailman post"
>> >is called? I don't see any errors, yet I don't see the post log file
>> >updating.
>> 
>> 
>> "mailman post" just puts the message in the in/ queue. I assume from
>> what you say above that it gets processed by IncomingRunner and even
>> archived and the problem is in OutgoingRunner.
>> 
>> See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9> and
>> <http://wiki.list.org/x/-IA9>.
>> 
>
>I can see that the in queue is probably working. There are currently 129
>files in the out/ queue.
>
>There are 2 OutgoingRunner processes and apparently BOTH of them are
>doing something because strace does show some activity


Since OutgoingRunner is not sliced, there should be only one
OutgoingRunner process. This needs to be corrected. See
<http://wiki.list.org/x/_4A9>.


>Process 14078 attached - interrupt to quit
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok. 0000000049303165.000045C"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
>= 35
>sendto(7, "mail FROM:<reflexoes3-bounces at li"..., 65, 0, NULL, 0) = 65
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<chitopan_2000 at yahoo.com"..., 35, 0, NULL, 0) = 35
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<bernadete.sorianoadv at gm"..., 42, 0, NULL, 0) = 42
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<iviv_8a at hotmail.com>\r\n", 31, 0, NULL, 0) = 31
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(7, "data\r\n", 6, 0, NULL, 0)    = 6
>recvfrom(7, "354 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(7, "Received: from sr05-01.mta.terra"..., 8256, 0, NULL, 0) =
>8256
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok. 0000000049303172.000045D"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
>= 35
>
>
>root at email1:/var/lib/mailman# strace -p13800
>Process 13800 attached - interrupt to quit
>recvfrom(8, "250 Ok. 00000000493031A7.0000464"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
>= 35
>sendto(8, "mail FROM:<reflexoes3-bounces at li"..., 65, 0, NULL, 0) = 65
>recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<fesayao at gmail.com>\r\n", 29, 0, NULL, 0) = 29
>recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<bruno8d at hotmail.com>\r\n", 31, 0, NULL, 0) = 31
>recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<evangelismoemissoes at hot"..., 43, 0, NULL, 0) = 43
>recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(8, "data\r\n", 6, 0, NULL, 0)    = 6
>recvfrom(8, "354 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>
>
>Yet even though it's being processed, the logs/post file isn't getting
>updated, and the number of messages in out/ doesn't decrease.


So OutgoingRunner never finishes delivery of even one post.  However, I
see 'data' commands in the traces above, so presumably, some
recipients are being delivered. Then when you kill OutgoingRunner and
restart it, It recovers the .bak file from the queue and redelivers to
the same recipients who by now have received multiple copies of the
message.


>Could this be because mailman is processing a very large list (20,000
>members) and it is just stuck on processing one message, while the other
>messages wait around?


It could be, but this would indicate that you need to do something to
allow SMTP between Mailman and the MTA to proceed faster. Search the
FAQ for "tuning".
>But I've been handling these lists for a long time and never had these
>problems. Mailman doesn't seem to be getting much cpu usage. 
>
>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 28 19:35:11 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:35:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?
In-Reply-To: <1227896612.6858.243.camel@laptop1>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811281035110265b2284d14@msapiro>

Ricardo Kleemann wrote:

>I have some more data on this...
>
>I enabled the debug in SMTPDirect.py, and it shows that there really
>aren't any problems. It shows that slowly a message is being sent out.


So your real issue is why is it proceeding so slowly.


>I followed the performance tuning suggestions that had the MAX_RCPTS in
>Defaults.py at an optimal value from 2-5, so I set it to 3.


Is the MTA doing DNS verification on incoming mail from Mailman? Are
you having some DNS issue?


>But does that mean that mailman is going to simply get stuck on one
>single message distribution and won't process any others until this one
>is finished?


Yes.


>I used to have these lists on another server and over there I had the
>MAX_RCPTS set to a high number, but my mail server is set to reject
>above 25 rcpts anyway so the end result that at max it would handle 25
>rcpts. I remember that whenever a message arrived for the list (again
>20,000 members) on the other server, the load average on the server
>would go pretty high as it processed the list.
>
>But now on this new server I never see the load avg go up. Is this
>because of the MAX_RCPTS setting? What else would keep mailman from
>efficiently handling the messages? 


Slow response from the MTA. Even with SMTP_MAX_RCPTS set to 3, you
should be delivering on the order of 100 or more recipients per
second. What do you see in Mailman's smtp log for processing tomes for
messages. How do the latest ones compare to those from days or a week
ago?


>The OutgoingRunner is just sitting there slowly distributing the message
>and never seems to get to the next one.


It will when it finishes this one.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From namonai at gmail.com  Wed Nov 26 14:27:19 2008
From: namonai at gmail.com (Craig Kelley)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 06:27:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] All Lists Shunted
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200811252111280928f3c7bd7c@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200811252104440194f3c7baae@msapiro>
	<PC1870200811252111280928f3c7bd7c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <847993120811260527i7a1eea38ifedcb83b805a8901@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:11 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> bin/dumpdb
> qfiles/shunt/1227562048.9204731+b9fba2b13960cde7e402f9f5f2a18a299315bf96.pck
>
> (that should be one line), what is in the second object (the message
> metadata)?

Mark-

I upgraded Python to 2.5 and it solved the problem.  Would you still
like me to send you that information for debugging purposes?

-- 
http://inconnu.islug.org/~ink finger ink at inconnu.islug.org for PGP block

From pennguin at mac.com  Wed Nov 26 22:43:51 2008
From: pennguin at mac.com (Rob)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:43:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Monthly password reminders not functioning
Message-ID: <EAD53D03-E8E0-40F1-BEC0-67EA90B33DD7@mac.com>

Hi,

Using v.2.1.9 on Mac OS X Server v10.5.5

Everything else is working nicely, but I just realized that our  
monthly password reminders are not being sent. I can manually trigger  
a password reminder using the options page 'Remind' button, and that  
goes through immediately.

I have checked all of the mailman logs and don't see anything  
suspicious.

Any clues on where I would start looking for the root of this problem?

Thanks in advance,

-Rob McLear


From rich at math.missouri.edu  Fri Nov 28 21:56:29 2008
From: rich at math.missouri.edu (Rich Winkel)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:56:29 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Minimal mailman
Message-ID: <20081128205629.GK14976@pencil.math.missouri.edu>

Hi, I'm trying to set up a very minimal installation here, I'm the sole
list manager and all administrative stuff goes through me, so I don't
need or want a web interface, just simple command-line stuff would
work for me.  I can't find any instructions specific to this setup,
although it's apparently a fairly common issue.  Is there any
info out there?

Thanks,
Rich


From rm at slmr.com  Fri Nov 28 21:30:39 2008
From: rm at slmr.com (Robin McCain)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:30:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can I get an ascii dump of the mailman users
	list for a backup?
Message-ID: <493054EF.7060100@slmr.com>

I need to backup my mailman database and do some user maintenance - how 
can I get a .csv file or something similar so I can compare the present 
list to the list I entered 6 months ago? I tried to install Mailman 
using MySQL so this would be easy to do, but it ignored MySQL and 
created its own database.

Are there any tools to extract statistical data out of the mailman database?


From thomas.winkelmann at gmail.com  Wed Nov 26 18:44:45 2008
From: thomas.winkelmann at gmail.com (win_tho)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:44:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stored attachments in
 /var/lib/mailman/archives/private
Message-ID: <20705785.post@talk.nabble.com>


Hello,

I'm using mailman in combination with Plesk. Now I discovered, that mailman
stores all attachments under
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/<maillist_name>, but the archive-function
of Mailman is disabled in every single list.

My Question: Why does mailman store all these filen, respectively is there
any way to delete these attachments automaticly?

Thanks in advance!
Thomas
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Stored-attachments-in--var-lib-mailman-archives-private-tp20705785p20705785.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Nov 28 22:49:16 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 15:49:16 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Monthly password reminders not functioning
In-Reply-To: <EAD53D03-E8E0-40F1-BEC0-67EA90B33DD7@mac.com>
References: <EAD53D03-E8E0-40F1-BEC0-67EA90B33DD7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4930675C.4030800@shub-internet.org>

on 11/26/08 3:43 PM, Rob said:

> Using v.2.1.9 on Mac OS X Server v10.5.5

We'll provide what assistance we can, but please do keep in mind the 
issues discussed at 
<http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030530> and 
<http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030523>.

> Everything else is working nicely, but I just realized that our monthly 
> password reminders are not being sent. I can manually trigger a password 
> reminder using the options page 'Remind' button, and that goes through 
> immediately.
> 
> I have checked all of the mailman logs and don't see anything suspicious.

Your Mailman cron job isn't running.

> Any clues on where I would start looking for the root of this problem?

See section 9 of the Mailman Installation Manual at 
<http://list.org/mailman-install/node41.html>

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Nov 28 22:51:25 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 15:51:25 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Minimal mailman
In-Reply-To: <20081128205629.GK14976@pencil.math.missouri.edu>
References: <20081128205629.GK14976@pencil.math.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <493067DD.7070204@shub-internet.org>

on 11/28/08 2:56 PM, Rich Winkel said:

> Hi, I'm trying to set up a very minimal installation here, I'm the sole
> list manager and all administrative stuff goes through me, so I don't
> need or want a web interface, just simple command-line stuff would
> work for me.  I can't find any instructions specific to this setup,
> although it's apparently a fairly common issue.  Is there any
> info out there?

Mailman was not intended to run in such an environment.  There are some 
things that can only be done from the command-line, but most of the 
administration is intended to be done via the web.  If you don't want to 
use any kind of web server at all, you're going to need to get pretty 
good at reading and writing code in Python.

That said, there's good stuff in the FAQ, if you search for "command line".

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 28 22:52:35 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:52:35 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Monthly password reminders not functioning
In-Reply-To: <EAD53D03-E8E0-40F1-BEC0-67EA90B33DD7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020081128135235060920297cc4@msapiro>

Rob wrote:
>
>Using v.2.1.9 on Mac OS X Server v10.5.5
>
>Everything else is working nicely, but I just realized that our  
>monthly password reminders are not being sent. I can manually trigger  
>a password reminder using the options page 'Remind' button, and that  
>goes through immediately.
>
>I have checked all of the mailman logs and don't see anything  
>suspicious.
>
>Any clues on where I would start looking for the root of this problem?


Is crond running on your server? If so, does Mailman's crontab have an
entry for cron/mailpasswds?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Nov 28 22:53:34 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 15:53:34 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stored attachments in
	/var/lib/mailman/archives/private
In-Reply-To: <20705785.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <20705785.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <4930685E.20506@shub-internet.org>

on 11/26/08 11:44 AM, win_tho said:

> I'm using mailman in combination with Plesk. Now I discovered, that mailman
> stores all attachments under
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/<maillist_name>, but the archive-function
> of Mailman is disabled in every single list.
> 
> My Question: Why does mailman store all these filen,

Presumably because Mailman under Plesk is configured to do that.  But 
for more information on that subject, you need to talk to your Plesk 
administrators or your service provider.  We can't help you with any 
issues that relate to Plesk.

See <http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Mailman+and+Plesk> for more info 
on this subject.

>                                                      respectively is there
> any way to delete these attachments automaticly?

Talk to your Plesk administrator and get them to turn off this function?

Set up a cron job to periodically purge this directory?

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Nov 28 23:00:22 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:00:22 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can I get an ascii dump of the mailman
 users list for a backup?
In-Reply-To: <493054EF.7060100@slmr.com>
References: <493054EF.7060100@slmr.com>
Message-ID: <493069F6.5070100@shub-internet.org>

on 11/28/08 2:30 PM, Robin McCain said:

> I need to backup my mailman database and do some user maintenance - how 
> can I get a .csv file or something similar so I can compare the present 
> list to the list I entered 6 months ago?

You won't get a .csv file.  Mailman does not generate files that would 
be suitable for importing into anything remotely resembling a spreadsheet.

If you read FAQ 4.9 (see 
<http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/4.09+Summary+of+the+mailman+bin+commands>), 
you'll note a number of commands related to user membership, and the 
specific command "list_members" will show you who all is subscribed to 
whatever list you specify.  That's probably the closest you're going to get.

>                                           I tried to install Mailman 
> using MySQL so this would be easy to do, but it ignored MySQL and 
> created its own database.

Mailman 2.x does not properly understand any kind of real database, like 
MySQL.  There are *unsupported* MySQL member adapters that you can 
install, but you're pretty much completely on your own with regards to 
anything related to them -- if you have any questions with regards to 
them, you should contact the member adapter authors, not us.

We hope to fix this properly in Mailman3, but we can't give you any kind 
of timeframe for when that will be delivered.

> Are there any tools to extract statistical data out of the mailman 
> database?

Searching the Mailman FAQ wiki for "statistic", the most obvious hit is 
FAQ 1.30 "Does Mailman have a statistics/log analysis module, or any 
marketing-related modules?", at 
<http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030678>.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 28 23:04:10 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:04:10 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stored attachments
	in/var/lib/mailman/archives/private
In-Reply-To: <20705785.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811281404100031038fbae9@msapiro>

win_tho wrote:
>
>I'm using mailman in combination with Plesk. Now I discovered, that mailman
>stores all attachments under
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/<maillist_name>, but the archive-function
>of Mailman is disabled in every single list.
>
>My Question: Why does mailman store all these filen, respectively is there
>any way to delete these attachments automaticly?


The stored attachments have been scrubbed from the 'plain' format
digest. This happens whether or not anyone actually subscribes to the
'plain' format digest. The only way to avoid it with configuration
settings is to set Digest options -> digestable to No (i.e. disable
digests).

Otherwise, you could set up a cron to periodically remove them, but
then if you actually have 'plain' digest sebscribers, you'll break the
links in their digests.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 28 23:08:48 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:08:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can I get an ascii dump of the mailmanusers
	list for a backup?
In-Reply-To: <493069F6.5070100@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <PC1870200811281408480015038fbaff@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>on 11/28/08 2:30 PM, Robin McCain said:
>
>> I need to backup my mailman database and do some user maintenance - how 
>> can I get a .csv file or something similar so I can compare the present 
>> list to the list I entered 6 months ago?
>
>You won't get a .csv file.  Mailman does not generate files that would 
>be suitable for importing into anything remotely resembling a spreadsheet.
>
>If you read FAQ 4.9 (see 
><http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/4.09+Summary+of+the+mailman+bin+commands>), 
>you'll note a number of commands related to user membership, and the 
>specific command "list_members" will show you who all is subscribed to 
>whatever list you specify.  That's probably the closest you're going to get.


Also see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/aYA9> for a ling to a
script that runs on your work station and screen scrapes the web admin
interface and can make a csv file.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From bolker at t-online.de  Sat Nov 29 11:42:20 2008
From: bolker at t-online.de (Bettina Olker)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:42:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] show both list and user address in the header
Message-ID: <49311C8C.8000806@t-online.de>

Hello,

is there a way to use the anonymous_list function, but add the original 
user mail address somewhere in the header/mail? I'd like to use the list 
name in the "from" field (to make it easily recognizable in the mail 
program), but also offer the possibility of a direct reply to the user 
by adding the user's mail address.

Thanks for your help
B. Olker

From faisalanif at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 30 16:08:57 2008
From: faisalanif at hotmail.com (faisal anif)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:08:57 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list tilts!!
Message-ID: <BLU144-W269510A811C5200EB6A25BDF060@phx.gbl>


hi,
 
I have 5 lists, list1, list2, list3, list4, and list5..
 
all the lists are working fine except list4, when adding or removing members from list4 it just tilts and nothing happens..
 
either by MASS SUBSCRIBE, or MASS REMOVAL or using add_members or remove members via SSH it just holds and nothing happens even if I left it for 30 minutes.. nothing until I click Ctrl+C to return to the command line..
 
what could be the problem?
 
Thanks
 

_________________________________________________________________
Discover the new Windows Vista
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE

From measl at mfn.org  Sun Nov 30 16:28:34 2008
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:28:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list tilts!!
In-Reply-To: <BLU144-W269510A811C5200EB6A25BDF060@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU144-W269510A811C5200EB6A25BDF060@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0811300928050.12921@mx1.mfn.org>


On Sun, 30 Nov 2008, faisal anif wrote:

> hi,
>  
> I have 5 lists, list1, list2, list3, list4, and list5..
>  
> all the lists are working fine except list4, when adding or removing members from list4 it just tilts and nothing happens..
>  
> either by MASS SUBSCRIBE, or MASS REMOVAL or using add_members or remove members via SSH it just holds and nothing happens even if I left it for 30 minutes.. nothing until I click Ctrl+C to return to the command line..
>  
> what could be the problem?

Have you checked ownerships and permissions?
> 

-- 
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin_at_mfn.org
0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother

"Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public
plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to
the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always
be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by
predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty."

Joseph Pulitzer
1907 Speech

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov 30 17:17:39 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:17:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list tilts!!
In-Reply-To: <BLU144-W269510A811C5200EB6A25BDF060@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <PC187020081130081739042119656c0c@msapiro>

faisal anif wrote:
> 
>I have 5 lists, list1, list2, list3, list4, and list5..
> 
>all the lists are working fine except list4, when adding or removing members from list4 it just tilts and nothing happens..
> 
>either by MASS SUBSCRIBE, or MASS REMOVAL or using add_members or remove members via SSH it just holds and nothing happens even if I left it for 30 minutes.. nothing until I click Ctrl+C to return to the command line..
> 
>what could be the problem?


My first thought is a stale lock. See the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/noA9>. However, this is not consistent with
your being able to access the web admin interface for the list if in
fact you can.

Read the FAQ and check for stale locks.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov 30 17:22:54 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:22:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] show both list and user address in the header
In-Reply-To: <49311C8C.8000806@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <PC187020081130082254071889169944@msapiro>

Bettina Olker wrote:
>
>is there a way to use the anonymous_list function, but add the original 
>user mail address somewhere in the header/mail?


No. The intent of the anonymous_list setting is to make posts anonymous.


>I'd like to use the list 
>name in the "from" field (to make it easily recognizable in the mail 
>program), but also offer the possibility of a direct reply to the user 
>by adding the user's mail address.


subject_prefix is the normal way to make list posts recognizable as
such.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From bergenpeak at comcast.net  Sun Nov 30 22:28:35 2008
From: bergenpeak at comcast.net (bergenpeak at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:28:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] html and footer attachment
Message-ID: <49330583.8090209@comcast.net>

I've got a tool which generates html mail to a number of mailman lists.  
I recently converted this to send html formatted mail.  The mailman 
attached footer (the four liner footer which details info about the 
list) is now being delivered as an attachment to each mail.  Is there a 
way to get mailman to associate this footer to be just a continuation of 
the html mail body?

Thanks

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov 30 22:51:32 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:51:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] html and footer attachment
In-Reply-To: <49330583.8090209@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <PC18702008113013513209372a90c449@msapiro>

bergenpeak at comcast.net wrote:

>I've got a tool which generates html mail to a number of mailman lists.  
>I recently converted this to send html formatted mail.  The mailman 
>attached footer (the four liner footer which details info about the 
>list) is now being delivered as an attachment to each mail.  Is there a 
>way to get mailman to associate this footer to be just a continuation of 
>the html mail body?


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/84A9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From bolker at t-online.de  Sun Nov 30 19:14:04 2008
From: bolker at t-online.de (Bettina Olker)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:14:04 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] show both list and user address in the header
In-Reply-To: <PC187020081130082254071889169944@msapiro>
References: <PC187020081130082254071889169944@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4932D7EC.2030301@t-online.de>

Thanks for the info.