From campbell at cnpapers.com  Tue Nov  1 12:10:31 2011
From: campbell at cnpapers.com (Steve Campbell)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 07:10:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Implicit Address rehash
In-Reply-To: <4EAF0205.70204@msapiro.net>
References: <PC19520111031124920057897975196@MSAPIRO>
	<4EAEFEFB.8070602@cnpapers.com> <4EAF0205.70204@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <4EAFD3A7.2030803@cnpapers.com>



On 10/31/2011 4:16 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/31/2011 1:03 PM, Steve Campbell wrote:
>> I looked at these in the admin interface, and didn't see a specific "To"
>> line, so I thought it must be looking at the envelope.
>
> MTAs, etc. look at the envelope for delivery information, but Mailman
> looks at the To: and Cc: headers to determine if the list is explicitly
> addressed.
>
>
>> The Message Headers has the following in it:
>>
>> Received: from xxx.xxxxxxx.xxx (linus.cnpapers.net [10.0.0.140])
>>      by xxxxxxxx.cnpapers.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id
>> p9VIp1Fr020768
>>      for&lt;cn-dailydeals at xxxxxxx.cnpapers.net&gt;; Mon, 31 Oct 2011
>> 14:51:01 -0400
>>
>> I x'ed out a little to try and keep spam away, although that's almost
>> impossible in today's world. There is a "for" address in the header line.
>
> Which is a reflection of the envelope recipient, but Mailman is not
> considering that at this point. The envelope must have been addressed to
> the list or the post wouldn't be there at all. Mailman is verifying that
> the list or an acceptable alias is explicitly addressed in a To: or Cc:
> header which is not true in this case.
>
>
>> There's an earlier line in the headers where the address appears proper,
>> though still not a real "To", but another "for" line.
>>
>> The To line in my MailWatch headers shows a normal To address.
>
> That too is the envelope recipient.
>
> You have two choices. Make the PHP script put the list address in a To:
> header in the mail or turn off the list's require_explicit_destination.

Thanks Mark,

I'll talk to the script writer and see if he can modify his code. I 
turned off the require_explicit_destination before I left yesterday to 
get it fudged and working.

Another lesson learned: There's not always a "To:" in the headers.

I originally thought the moderation notification was telling me what the 
implicit address was that needed to be aliased. It's no wonder I 
couldn't find a proper regexp to match.

steve campbell


From noloader at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 12:52:08 2011
From: noloader at gmail.com (Jeffrey Walton)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 07:52:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
Message-ID: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

Its the first of the month, and I'm receiving my passwords from Mailman servers.

I don't want my passwords stored in the plain text, and I don't want
them stored with reversible encryption. How do I turn off this
security hole (feature?).

http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/2+Help+for+mailing+list+members and
http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/3+List+administrator+tasks does not
appear to address the topic.

Jeff

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  1 16:33:16 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 08:33:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem sending multiple listserv commands via
	email
In-Reply-To: <CAJZ7osqREGyuU1W-TyPqTvNuCsBH+wU0pfz16bcH9GX5u+1MMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111010833160484414ee1f4@MSAPIRO>

Christine Cubillo wrote:

>***Response Received:
>
>
>
>- Results:
>    Usage:
>
>    unsubscribe [password] [address=<address>]
>        Unsubscribe from the mailing list.  If given, your password must match
>        your current password.  If omitted, a confirmation email will be sent
>        to the unsubscribing address. If you wish to unsubscribe an address
>        other than the address you sent this request from, you may specify
>        `address=<address>' (no brackets around the email address, and no
>        quotes!)
>
>
>- Unprocessed:
>subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=email2 at someaddress.com
>subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=email3 at someaddress.com
>
>- Done.


The second and subsequent commands are not processed because the first
command results in an error. That's why you see a Usage: message.

It appears that something has been broken in your Mailman installation
as the subscribe commands appear to be invoking the cmd_unsubscribe
module rather than the cmd_subscribe module.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From christine.cubillo at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 16:52:17 2011
From: christine.cubillo at gmail.com (Christine Cubillo)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 08:52:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem sending multiple listserv commands via
	email
In-Reply-To: <PC195201111010833160484414ee1f4@MSAPIRO>
References: <CAJZ7osqREGyuU1W-TyPqTvNuCsBH+wU0pfz16bcH9GX5u+1MMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC195201111010833160484414ee1f4@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <CAJZ7ososL9Tg4ijYzgf-Hz+Opgj0yPzdouhYZrdkBmiS5vha8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for responding.  Sorry, I pasted the usage message from one of
my unsubscribe tests.  Here are the results I get when i attempt to
subscribe multiple email addresses.  The first subscribe command is
always processed and the remaining subscribe commands are left
unprocessed.  Is there a way I can get all commands in my email to be
processed?


The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your
original message.

- Results:
    You are already subscribed!

- Unprocessed:
    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=address2 at somewhere.net
    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=address3 at somewhere.net
    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=address4 at somewhere.net
    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=address5 at somewhere.net
    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=address6 at somewhere.net
    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=address7 at somewhere.net
    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=address8 at somewhere.net


- Done.

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> Christine Cubillo wrote:
>
>>***Response Received:
>>
>>
>>
>>- Results:
>> ? ?Usage:
>>
>> ? ?unsubscribe [password] [address=<address>]
>> ? ? ? ?Unsubscribe from the mailing list. ?If given, your password must match
>> ? ? ? ?your current password. ?If omitted, a confirmation email will be sent
>> ? ? ? ?to the unsubscribing address. If you wish to unsubscribe an address
>> ? ? ? ?other than the address you sent this request from, you may specify
>> ? ? ? ?`address=<address>' (no brackets around the email address, and no
>> ? ? ? ?quotes!)
>>
>>
>>- Unprocessed:
>>subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=email2 at someaddress.com
>>subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=email3 at someaddress.com
>>
>>- Done.
>
>
> The second and subsequent commands are not processed because the first
> command results in an error. That's why you see a Usage: message.
>
> It appears that something has been broken in your Mailman installation
> as the subscribe commands appear to be invoking the cmd_unsubscribe
> module rather than the cmd_subscribe module.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> ? ? ? ?The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California ? ?better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Tue Nov  1 17:13:44 2011
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:13:44 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 07:52:08AM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> Its the first of the month, and I'm receiving my passwords from Mailman servers.

Happy Mailman Day!

(I disable Mailman-day crontab entries.)

> I don't want my passwords stored in the plain text, and I don't want
> them stored with reversible encryption.

Install Mailman 3.

Mark may have a more useful suggestion of what to patch, and there
could well be something in the archives about this.

> How do I turn off this  security hole (feature?).

The standard listinfo text warns:

    You may enter a privacy password below. This provides only mild
    security, but should prevent others from messing with your
    subscription. Do not use a valuable password as it will
    occasionally be emailed back to you in cleartext.

You could, perhaps, edit the listinfo blurb, to give that greater
prominence?

-- 
"Celebrity can be malign in that it becomes a form of idolatry, and
 people live their lives vicariously through the rich and famous rather
 than attending to their own lives."
    -- John Sentamu

From noloader at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 19:28:54 2011
From: noloader at gmail.com (Jeffrey Walton)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:28:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
References: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Adam,

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Adam McGreggor
<adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 07:52:08AM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
>> Its the first of the month, and I'm receiving my passwords from Mailman servers.
>
> Happy Mailman Day!
>
> (I disable Mailman-day crontab entries.)
:)

>> I don't want my passwords stored in the plain text, and I don't want
>> them stored with reversible encryption.
>
> Install Mailman 3.
OK. I'm not the sysadmin, so I can't control the software.

I can control my account settings. But I take it there is nothing I
can do as a user.

> Mark may have a more useful suggestion of what to patch, and there
> could well be something in the archives about this.
>
>> How do I turn off this ?security hole (feature?).
>
> The standard listinfo text warns:
>
> ? ?You may enter a privacy password below. This provides only mild
> ? ?security, but should prevent others from messing with your
> ? ?subscription. Do not use a valuable password as it will
> ? ?occasionally be emailed back to you in cleartext.
>
> You could, perhaps, edit the listinfo blurb, to give that greater
> prominence?
Well, between plain text passwords and non-authenticated users
tampering, its really a no win situation for the user.

I wish these list managers would get a f**king clue and do things securely.

Jeff

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  1 20:29:42 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:29:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem sending multiple listserv commands via
	email
In-Reply-To: <CAJZ7ososL9Tg4ijYzgf-Hz+Opgj0yPzdouhYZrdkBmiS5vha8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111011229420046bba0b718@MSAPIRO>

Christine Cubillo wrote:

>Thanks for responding.  Sorry, I pasted the usage message from one of
>my unsubscribe tests.  Here are the results I get when i attempt to
>subscribe multiple email addresses.  The first subscribe command is
>always processed and the remaining subscribe commands are left
>unprocessed.  Is there a way I can get all commands in my email to be
>processed?


You can include multiple commands in one email, but the first command
which is unrecognized, fails or results in an error terminates
processing.

In the case below, the first command attempted to subscribe an address
which is already a member so it failed and the remaining commands were
unprocessed.

All commands will be processed if and only if they are all valid and
all succeed.


>The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your
>original message.
>
>- Results:
>    You are already subscribed!
>
>- Unprocessed:
>    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=3Daddress2 at somewhere.net
>    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=3Daddress3 at somewhere.net
>    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=3Daddress4 at somewhere.net
>    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=3Daddress5 at somewhere.net
>    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=3Daddress6 at somewhere.net
>    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=3Daddress7 at somewhere.net
>    subscribe MyPassword nodigest address=3Daddress8 at somewhere.net

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  1 20:47:25 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:47:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111011247250625b3d4684a@MSAPIRO>

Jeffrey Walton wrote:

>OK. I'm not the sysadmin, so I can't control the software.
>
>I can control my account settings. But I take it there is nothing I
>can do as a user.


As a list member, you can turn off password reminders for any list of
which you are a member. As a list admin, you can turn off reminders
for the entire list. This does not affect how passwords are stored,
but at least you can suppress emailing them.

[...]
>I wish these list managers would get a f**king clue and do things securely.


The storing and optional mailing of passwords in plain text is a long
standing issue that the Mailman developers are well aware of. This
will finally change in Mailman 3.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From cpz at tuunq.com  Tue Nov  1 21:00:40 2011
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 13:00:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem sending multiple listserv commands via
 email
In-Reply-To: <PC195201111011229420046bba0b718@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC195201111011229420046bba0b718@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4EB04FE8.7050408@tuunq.com>

On 11/1/2011 12:29 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> In the case below, the first command attempted to subscribe an address
> which is already a member so it failed and the remaining commands were
> unprocessed.

Why is that an error?  I would expect it to ignored, just like setting a 
property to it's current value.

z!

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  1 21:55:12 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:55:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem sending multiple listserv commands
	viaemail
In-Reply-To: <4EB04FE8.7050408@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952011110113551205465e8454ae@MSAPIRO>

Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>
>> In the case below, the first command attempted to subscribe an address
>> which is already a member so it failed and the remaining commands were
>> unprocessed.
>
>Why is that an error?  I would expect it to ignored, just like setting a 
>property to it's current value.


Because Mailman/commands/cmd_subscribe.py distinguishes it from success
and calls it fatal. Granted, an argument could be made that it
shouldn't be fatal and similarly that unsubscribe of a non-member
address shouldn't be fatal either, but it isn't completely obvious
that that should be the case.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Wed Nov  2 00:24:44 2011
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 19:24:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem sending multiple listserv commands
	viaemail
In-Reply-To: <PC1952011110113551205465e8454ae@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC1952011110113551205465e8454ae@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4EB07FBC.9040102@Damon-Family.org>

On 11/1/11 4:55 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>>> In the case below, the first command attempted to subscribe an address
>>> which is already a member so it failed and the remaining commands were
>>> unprocessed.
>> Why is that an error?  I would expect it to ignored, just like setting a
>> property to it's current value.
>
> Because Mailman/commands/cmd_subscribe.py distinguishes it from success
> and calls it fatal. Granted, an argument could be made that it
> shouldn't be fatal and similarly that unsubscribe of a non-member
> address shouldn't be fatal either, but it isn't completely obvious
> that that should be the case.
>
One issue I see with this behavior, is that this breaks the privacy that 
mailman gives to lists. The web interface is very careful to NOT let you 
know if a given address is subscribed or not (unless the list publishes 
its subscriber list). This gives a method that you can get a message to 
one email address indicating that another, unrelated, email address is 
subscribed to the list.

-- 
Richard Damon


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov  2 02:25:23 2011
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 10:25:23 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87d3dbpb7g.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jeffrey Walton writes:

 > I wish these list managers would get a f**king clue and do things
 > securely.

By which you mean what?  What we've learned over the last 30 years is
that when application developers try to do security, they generally
miss something.  AFAICS Mailman 2 did the right thing for its time:
provide minimal security against idle mischief and admit that there
was no security against hell-bent miscreants.  Mailman 3 is taking
advantage of a decade of progress in security and network application
design, and providing the hooks needed to allow admins to configure
system security services.  (This can be done with Mailman 2 as well,
but not as smoothly.)


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov  2 11:00:44 2011
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 19:00:44 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <CAH8yC8n8Hjt_R=OUrsWiLhxu5c06Gx-CJfCV0AvuD9MTjsacUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>
	<87d3dbpb7g.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH8yC8n8Hjt_R=OUrsWiLhxu5c06Gx-CJfCV0AvuD9MTjsacUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <874nymq1wz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jeffrey Walton writes:

 > The best I can tell, Mailman 2 did the wrong thing.

Against what threats with what level of security do you have in mind?

 > Confer: list managers did not fix Mailman 2 (nor did they use other
 > software which was secure). Why would you expect them to research
 > and securely configure Mailman 3?

I don't expect them to do so, until they get embarrassed (or worse)
for not doing so.  What else is new?

Security inherently requires research and configuration.  Asking for
"secure out of the box" is meaningless; it's what happens after it
comes out of the box that matters.


From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Wed Nov  2 12:40:55 2011
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 06:40:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <874nymq1wz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>
	<87d3dbpb7g.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH8yC8n8Hjt_R=OUrsWiLhxu5c06Gx-CJfCV0AvuD9MTjsacUA@mail.gmail.com>
	<874nymq1wz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <3C1C1818-FDD4-4BDB-B34A-9DE5F8393ED3@stonejongleux.com>

Jeffrey Walton writes:

> The best I can tell, Mailman 2 did the wrong thing.

The best I can tell, your expectations for Mailman's security and the software authors' expectations are completely different. As has already been explained, it is a low level of security designed to prevent (maybe I should just say discourage) mischief. It is not intended to be as secure as what secures your bank accounts. If your Mailman password is compromised, what is the most damage that can be done? Very little.

Mailman works with Mail. SMTP mail is very insecure with headers, etc. easily spoofed (by design - just as I can easily spoof the sender on a piece of paper mail I drop in a mailbox). What good does high security on Mailman do if it's trivial to step around the gate?

A good comparison would be the lock on most home bathrooms. It is designed to prevent someone from accidently walking in on you. It is not designed to prevent someone who is determined to get in that bathroom even though it is locked. You normally do not use the same types of locks on a bathroom as you use on your front door.

Heck, a bank does not secure their lobby as tightly as they secure their vault. Are they wrong for doing that?

> Confer: list managers did not fix Mailman 2 (nor did they use other
> software which was secure). Why would you expect them to research
> and securely configure Mailman 3?

List managers have nothing to do with this. Us "list managers" did not write the software. We're just higher level users of Mailman than the reader of a mailing list that uses Mailman. But we're still just users.

If Mailman does not meet your needs due to it failing to meet the security requirements you personally have, don't use it. If you're just a reader of a list run through Mailman, then use a password you don't care about (by default, Mailman generates random passwords. I don't even bother to save them as I know I can recover it easily in the unlikely event I actually ever need it).

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/




From noloader at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 10:00:57 2011
From: noloader at gmail.com (Jeffrey Walton)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 05:00:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <87d3dbpb7g.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>
	<87d3dbpb7g.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAH8yC8n8Hjt_R=OUrsWiLhxu5c06Gx-CJfCV0AvuD9MTjsacUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:25 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> Jeffrey Walton writes:
>
> ?> I wish these list managers would get a f**king clue and do things
> ?> securely.
>
> By which you mean what? ?What we've learned over the last 30 years is
> that when application developers try to do security, they generally
> miss something. ?AFAICS Mailman 2 did the right thing for its time:
> provide minimal security against idle mischief and admit that there
> was no security against hell-bent miscreants.
The best I can tell, Mailman 2 did the wrong thing. "Password
Security: A Case History", www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/passwd.ps.
Written in 1978.

> Mailman 3 is taking
> advantage of a decade of progress in security and network application
> design, and providing the hooks needed to allow admins to configure
> system security services. ?(This can be done with Mailman 2 as well,
> but not as smoothly.)
If Mailman 3 only provides hooks - as opposed to securely storing the
secret - then Mailman 3 has problems out of the box. In this case, it
would be no better than Mailman 2. Confer: list managers did not fix
Mailman 2 (nor did they use other software which was secure). Why
would you expect them to research and securely configure Mailman 3?

Jeff

From noloader at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 11:44:42 2011
From: noloader at gmail.com (Jeffrey Walton)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 06:44:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <874nymq1wz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>
	<87d3dbpb7g.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH8yC8n8Hjt_R=OUrsWiLhxu5c06Gx-CJfCV0AvuD9MTjsacUA@mail.gmail.com>
	<874nymq1wz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAH8yC8mFUX+Tk9UvYSsapp_xRxOENcCNs6vptT7K=mRxDyrDhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 6:00 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> Jeffrey Walton writes:
>
> ?> The best I can tell, Mailman 2 did the wrong thing.
>
> Against what threats with what level of security do you have in mind?
I found it interesting you brought a threat model into the discussion.
The best I can tell, the Mailman threat model is naive or unrealistic.

There are at least three threats which should be modeled. First is
unknown attackers who are breaking into systems and harvesting {user
name, email. password} tuples. As a user, I got nailed when GNU's
Savannah was hacked.

I reused a password (bad dog!), and the bad guys broke into an
unrelated gmail account. That is, the attackers got {Jeffrey Walton,
noloader/gmail.com, XXXX} from Savannah and used it to successfully
compromise jeffrey.w.walton/gmail.com due to password reuse. They
could not get noloader/gmail access, or banking access since the
passwords are different.

The second threat is the system administrator. I understand a sysadmin
must be trusted, but why is he or she trusted so much that they are
entitled to plain text passwords?

The third threat is government. Any government can compel a list
administrator to give up his or her {user name/email/password} list
*if* the list operated within its jurisdiction. The government - as an
adversary - can surreptitiously do the same things an attacker can do.
In the US, the PATRIOT Act assures these things (full database access
and the ability to act surreptitiously without oversight).

These are not theoretical threats. They happen in practice, and happen
too frequently.

> ?> Confer: list managers did not fix Mailman 2 (nor did they use other
> ?> software which was secure). Why would you expect them to research
> ?> and securely configure Mailman 3?
>
> I don't expect them to do so, until they get embarrassed (or worse)
> for not doing so. ?What else is new?
>
> Security inherently requires research and configuration. ?Asking for
> "secure out of the box" is meaningless; it's what happens after it
> comes out of the box that matters.
Storing a salted hash is an accepted best practice. It should not
require research nor configuration by the list manager.

Another example: MD5 was compromised in the mid-1990s, and its
security has only gotten worse over time. MD5 is not even close to its
theoretical security level of 2^64. If a program uses a hash for
security related functions, MD5 should not be used (some hand
waiving).

So to answer the security level question: store a salted hash of the
password using SHA-224/256 or Whirlpool. The use of SHA-2 or Whirlpool
stems from NIST [1,2] and ECRYPT [3] recommendations on algorithm
strengths. With a salted hash (using an appropriate hash function),
list managers don't need to do any research or configurations, and I
don't have to worry about hackers, system administrators, or most
government attacks.

Finally, it makes more sense to fix the problem in one place (Mailman
source code, by the Mailman developers) rather than 10,000 places
(each Mailman installation, by every Mailman list manager).

Jeff

[1] http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-57/sp800-57-Part1-revised2_Mar08-2007.pdf
[2] http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-131A/sp800-131A.pdf
[3] www.ecrypt.eu.org/documents/D.SPA.7.pdf

From noloader at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 14:15:50 2011
From: noloader at gmail.com (Jeffrey Walton)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 09:15:50 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <3C1C1818-FDD4-4BDB-B34A-9DE5F8393ED3@stonejongleux.com>
References: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>
	<87d3dbpb7g.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH8yC8n8Hjt_R=OUrsWiLhxu5c06Gx-CJfCV0AvuD9MTjsacUA@mail.gmail.com>
	<874nymq1wz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<3C1C1818-FDD4-4BDB-B34A-9DE5F8393ED3@stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <CAH8yC8n1YuNW_R-GiHRZuahZQHEvx8ybasTVbj5uNynna4YXsw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:40 AM, Larry Stone <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com> wrote:
> Jeffrey Walton writes:
>
>> The best I can tell, Mailman 2 did the wrong thing.
>
> The best I can tell, your expectations for Mailman's security and the software authors' expectations are completely different.
Agreed. I was very naive.

> Mailman works with Mail. SMTP mail is very insecure with headers, etc. easily spoofed (by design - just as I can easily spoof the sender on a piece of paper mail I drop in a mailbox). What good does high security on Mailman do if it's trivial to step around the gate?
>
Agreed. I have no expectation that my messages to the list will be
private, or my email will be private. An attacker gains nothing from
reading my messages posted to a public mailing list.

But the password database used by Mailman is not a public database.
Users have a reasonable expectation of security surrounding it. An
attacker gains a list of {user name, email, password} when the system
is compromised.

>> Confer: list managers did not fix Mailman 2 (nor did they use other
>> software which was secure). Why would you expect them to research
>> and securely configure Mailman 3?
> List managers have nothing to do with this. Us "list managers" did not write the software. We're just higher level users of Mailman than the reader of a mailing list that uses Mailman. But we're still just users.
Both are at fault. First are the developers for using an insecure
system, and second are the folks who use it in production. In this
case "crowd security" failed - more eyeballs were not better and did
not lead to improvements.

> If Mailman does not meet your needs due to it failing to meet the security requirements you personally have, don't use it.
Unrealistic. I have no control over what software a particular mailing
list uses. Its kind of like saying, "if you don't like the smog, don't
breathe the air".

Jeff

From CNulk at scu.edu  Wed Nov  2 19:37:23 2011
From: CNulk at scu.edu (C Nulk)
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 11:37:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <CAH8yC8n1YuNW_R-GiHRZuahZQHEvx8ybasTVbj5uNynna4YXsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>
	<87d3dbpb7g.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH8yC8n8Hjt_R=OUrsWiLhxu5c06Gx-CJfCV0AvuD9MTjsacUA@mail.gmail.com>
	<874nymq1wz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<3C1C1818-FDD4-4BDB-B34A-9DE5F8393ED3@stonejongleux.com>
	<CAH8yC8n1YuNW_R-GiHRZuahZQHEvx8ybasTVbj5uNynna4YXsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EB18DE3.50603@scu.edu>

On 11/2/2011 6:15 AM, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:40 AM, Larry Stone <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com> wrote:
>> Jeffrey Walton writes:
>>
[Snip]
>> . I was very naive.
>> Mailman works with Mail. SMTP mail is very insecure with headers, etc. easily spoofed (by design - just as I can easily spoof the sender on a piece of paper mail I drop in a mailbox). What good does high security on Mailman do if it's trivial to step around the gate?
>>
> Agreed. I have no expectation that my messages to the list will be
> private, or my email will be private. An attacker gains nothing from
> reading my messages posted to a public mailing list.
>
> But the password database used by Mailman is not a public database.
> Users have a reasonable expectation of security surrounding it. An
> attacker gains a list of {user name, email, password} when the system
> is compromised.

I agree users have a reasonable expectation of security surrounding
their password.  However, when the user is informed about the level of
security being used, the user's reasonable expectation shouldn't exceed
what they were told.  I have a reasonable expectation of security when I
am told I can use a locker to put my equipment in.  But when I am told
the locker has no locks on it, my reasonable expectation of security for
that locker is much, much lower than if it had a lock.

>
>>> Confer: list managers did not fix Mailman 2 (nor did they use other
>>> software which was secure). Why would you expect them to research
>>> and securely configure Mailman 3?
>> List managers have nothing to do with this. Us "list managers" did not write the software. We're just higher level users of Mailman than the reader of a mailing list that uses Mailman. But we're still just users.
> Both are at fault. First are the developers for using an insecure
> system, and second are the folks who use it in production. In this
> case "crowd security" failed - more eyeballs were not better and did
> not lead to improvements.
>
>> If Mailman does not meet your needs due to it failing to meet the security requirements you personally have, don't use it.
> Unrealistic. I have no control over what software a particular mailing
> list uses. Its kind of like saying, "if you don't like the smog, don't
> breathe the air".

It isn't necessarily unrealistic, a bit abrupt maybe.  You can also make
changes to the source to increase the security requirement.  I have had
to make some minor modifications to Mailman for it to do what is
required where I work.  And, as some on this list can probably attest, I
am not a Python coder.  So, if Mailman doesn't meet your needs, you can
use it as is and suffer, make any changes you feel necessary, or not use
it.

>
> Jeff

Thanks,
Chris


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Nov  3 06:47:21 2011
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:47:21 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to turn off plain text passwords?
In-Reply-To: <CAH8yC8mFUX+Tk9UvYSsapp_xRxOENcCNs6vptT7K=mRxDyrDhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH8yC8nbzf7+jZ2VLKvYxsjyC9+Cnb-SnPKGo8tcXWRcvk7VpA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111101161344.GM21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<CAH8yC8kJt_hNXjY+SF+vi=a2Ym-y0q5vi8D3oKoFE2iXs1aTng@mail.gmail.com>
	<87d3dbpb7g.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH8yC8n8Hjt_R=OUrsWiLhxu5c06Gx-CJfCV0AvuD9MTjsacUA@mail.gmail.com>
	<874nymq1wz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH8yC8mFUX+Tk9UvYSsapp_xRxOENcCNs6vptT7K=mRxDyrDhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87wrbhoiza.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jeffrey Walton writes:

 > The best I can tell, the Mailman threat model is naive or unrealistic.

It's neither.  It merely corresponds to a very low level of security,
and you are told that when you subscribe.

 > There are at least three threats which should be modeled.

"Should".  Why?  And why just these?

 > First is unknown attackers who are breaking into systems and
 > harvesting {user name, email. password} tuples. As a user, I got
 > nailed when GNU's Savannah was hacked.
 > 
 > I reused a password (bad dog!),

Indeed, and AFAIK if you can get access to a database of as few as 100
MD5-encrypted passwords, a modern PC can probably crack at least one
with a dictionary attack within a few hours.  Given the quality of
most of my own passwords, given an attacker with a $5000 machine I
doubt that "salted SHA256" would make that stretch by more than a
couple hours.  Encryption only helps a little bit, most likely the
people who reuse passwords also have relatively weak ones, and the
password may not be the most valuable part of such a tuple in any case.

 > The second threat is the system administrator. I understand a sysadmin
 > must be trusted, but why is he or she trusted so much that they are
 > entitled to plain text passwords?

Because they can get them anyway with wireshark or an appropriate
Mailman Handler?  (Avoiding this attack is left as an exercise for the
reader, as well as identifying the security issues introduced or not
handled at all by the more obvious "solutions".)

 > The third threat is government. Any government can compel a list
 > administrator to give up his or her {user name/email/password} list
 > *if* the list operated within its jurisdiction.

And more secure password lists help here just how?
Cf. http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/rbarip.html.

 > These are not theoretical threats. They happen in practice, and happen
 > too frequently.

And the real solution is obvious.  Don't use passwords at all,
although that doesn't help with security of the user name and email
lists.

The fact is, Google and Savannah don't care about security of their
users enough to provide more security than the users do themselves.

RMS has been quite open about it on several occasions when push came
to shove: it was more important that GNU systems use free software
than that they be secure.  And for Google, security is just a matter
of financial calculus: if they screw up in public, it will cost them
so many users and indirectly so much ad revenue, etc.

If they *did* care more than the users do, they'd use a public key
solution and prohibit passwords.

 > So to answer the security level question: store a salted hash of the
 > password using SHA-224/256 or Whirlpool. The use of SHA-2 or Whirlpool
 > stems from NIST [1,2] and ECRYPT [3] recommendations on algorithm
 > strengths. With a salted hash (using an appropriate hash function),
 > list managers don't need to do any research or configurations, and I
 > don't have to worry about hackers, system administrators, or most
 > government attacks.

Speaking of "naive".  The passwords are protected (but not fully
protected against system admins), but the lists aren't.  Do you
realize just what kind of trouble some poor lady could be in if you
let the addresses on your "battered wives" list leak?  "Dead" is well
within the realm of possibility!

Now, that may not be *your* problem, but it does put "paid" to this claim:

 > Finally, it makes more sense to fix the problem in one place (Mailman
 > source code, by the Mailman developers) rather than 10,000 places
 > (each Mailman installation, by every Mailman list manager).

That would be true if there were a "the problem".  There isn't.  There
are 10,000 problems, each a little different.  There are problems,
each a little different, 10,000 of them.  There are 10,000 problems,
each differing a little. ....



From ace at tidbits.com  Thu Nov  3 21:05:42 2011
From: ace at tidbits.com (Adam Engst)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:05:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to strip S/MIME attachments
Message-ID: <CAJpOjngzVqG3w19cEWrHaVdduYohYJU0RuzXZew10ETm7bUmYw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I'm trying to set my list so that it strips the S/MIME digital
signature attachments that some mail software adds to every message
(iOS 5 is a culprit here). However, no matter what I do, Mailman seems
to see the message as not having content, such that it's forwarded to
me, the list owner, rather than being sent on to the list. My content
filtering settings are as follows:

filter_content: Yes
filter_mime_types: application/pkcs7-signature
pass_mime_types: multipart/mixed, multipart/alternative, text/plain
filter_filename_extensions: exe, bat, cmd, com, pif, scr, vbs, cpl, p7s
pass_filename_extensions: blank
collapse_alternatives: Yes
convert_html_to_plaintext: Yes
filter_action: Forward to list owner

In particular, note the filter_mime_types and the last entry in
filter_filename_extensions, which are what I've added to try to get
rid of these attachments.

Any ideas what I might be doing wrong, or if I'm missing something
that prevents Mailman from handling S/MIME attachments properly?

cheers... -Adam

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov  4 07:27:52 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:27:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to strip S/MIME attachments
In-Reply-To: <CAJpOjngzVqG3w19cEWrHaVdduYohYJU0RuzXZew10ETm7bUmYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111032327520718460c3082@MSAPIRO>

Adam Engst wrote:
>
>I'm trying to set my list so that it strips the S/MIME digital
>signature attachments that some mail software adds to every message
>(iOS 5 is a culprit here). However, no matter what I do, Mailman seems
>to see the message as not having content, such that it's forwarded to
>me, the list owner, rather than being sent on to the list. My content
>filtering settings are as follows:
>
>filter_content: Yes
>filter_mime_types: application/pkcs7-signature


The above is superfluous. If pass_mime_types is non-empty, every type
not mentioned there is filtered.


>pass_mime_types: multipart/mixed, multipart/alternative, text/plain


You need at least multipart/signed in the above list. Accepting
text/plain is not sufficient if the text/plain part is a sub-part of a
multipart type (in this case multipart/signed) which is not accepted.


>filter_filename_extensions: exe, bat, cmd, com, pif, scr, vbs, cpl, p7s
>pass_filename_extensions: blank
>collapse_alternatives: Yes
>convert_html_to_plaintext: Yes
>filter_action: Forward to list owner
>
>In particular, note the filter_mime_types and the last entry in
>filter_filename_extensions, which are what I've added to try to get
>rid of these attachments.


filter_filename_extensions is only applied after content type
filtering. In this case, all it does is remove any text/plain parts
which have an associated name with one of those extensions. With your
pass_mime_types, everything other than possibly some elemental
text/plain parts is already removed.


>Any ideas what I might be doing wrong, or if I'm missing something
>that prevents Mailman from handling S/MIME attachments properly?


Since you are collapsing alternatives and converting HTML to plain
text, I suggest

pass_mime_types
    multipart
    text/plain
    text/html

Which will accept all and only text/plain and text/html elemental
parts, then collapse any multipart/alternative parts to the first
sub-part (normally the text/plain alternative) and finally convert any
remaining text/html to text/plain using lynx or whatever the
installation has configured as HTML_TO_PLAIN_TEXT_COMMAND.

If you don't want to bother with converting HTML to plain text, don't
put text/html in pass_mime_types.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Fri Nov  4 19:54:17 2011
From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 20:54:17 +0200 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Misleading Email response. Please fix!
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111042047490.3406@data.home>

Hi,

I've been meaning to request this for ages.  I don't see this very often, 
but when I do, it gives me a heart attack.

I usually use the web interface for approving messages.  But I 
occasionally do it via Email.  When I do, I get a response back that looks 
like this:

The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your
original message.

- Results:
     Confirmation succeeded

- Unprocessed:
     Approved: <admin password>

- Done.

----   CUT HERE    -----------------------

To me at least, this suggests that the message has been rejected, not 
approved, as the text says that the approval command was not processed. 
I know this isn't the case because I see the message posted to the list, 
but when I initially saw it, I had a panic as I thought I'd lost a message 
for the list.

Is it possible to fix this so that the message is more clear about what 
has happened?  The "Confirmation succeeded" message is not very 
explanatory, and seen in isolation doesn't really tell you anythying about 
whether the message was approved or rejected.

Geoff.

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov  5 01:00:40 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:00:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Misleading Email response. Please fix!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111042047490.3406@data.home>
Message-ID: <PC195201111041700400468257967bc@MSAPIRO>

Geoff Shang wrote:
>
>I've been meaning to request this for ages.  I don't see this very often, 
>but when I do, it gives me a heart attack.
>
>I usually use the web interface for approving messages.  But I 
>occasionally do it via Email.  When I do, I get a response back that looks 
>like this:
>
>The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your
>original message.
>
>- Results:
>     Confirmation succeeded
>
>- Unprocessed:
>     Approved: <admin password>
>
>- Done.
>
>----   CUT HERE    -----------------------
>
>To me at least, this suggests that the message has been rejected, not 
>approved, as the text says that the approval command was not processed. 
>I know this isn't the case because I see the message posted to the list, 
>but when I initially saw it, I had a panic as I thought I'd lost a message 
>for the list.
>
>Is it possible to fix this so that the message is more clear about what 
>has happened?  The "Confirmation succeeded" message is not very 
>explanatory, and seen in isolation doesn't really tell you anythying about 
>whether the message was approved or rejected.


Please report this as a bug at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jik at kamens.us  Mon Nov  7 18:23:13 2011
From: jik at kamens.us (Jonathan Kamens)
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 12:23:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman violates RFC 1153?
Message-ID: <4EB81401.80807@kamens.us>

Someone recently contacted me because my Thunderbird "undigestify" 
add-on <https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/undigestify/> is 
failing to unpack digests produced by Mailman 2.1.9.

He sent me a sample digest, which ends like this:

    ------------------------------

    --
    test mailing list
    test at lists.fedoraproject.org
    https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test

    End of test Digest, Vol 93, Issue 20
    ************************************

RFC 1153 has this to say about the digest trailer (emphasis added by me):

    The Trailer immediately follows the blank line of message separator
    following the last enclosed message.  The Trailer consists of two
    lines.  The first line /*must */begin with the words, End of,
    followed by the listname a blank and the word Digest which is
    usually followed by volume and issue number on the same line.  The
    second and last line of the Trailer and the entire message is a line
    of asterisks serving to underline the line immediately above it.

I looked at the mailman source code and it doesn't appear that the 
Fedora Project is running a hacked version; it appears that the standard 
Mailman source code inserts the list footer as shown above as part of 
the digest trailer, in violation of the RFC.

I can and will work around this violation of the standard in my code, 
but it makes the code significantly more complicated, and it's kind of 
annoying to see the RFC being violated like this.

   jik


From carlos.palomino at me.com  Mon Nov  7 18:39:41 2011
From: carlos.palomino at me.com (Carlos Palomino)
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 12:39:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server request addresses not active
In-Reply-To: <4EB81401.80807@kamens.us>
References: <4EB81401.80807@kamens.us>
Message-ID: <96E5095F-D254-41F0-89A7-984663D44438@me.com>

Hello list,

I'm new to mailman and have recently installed the software on my CenOS server.

All is working quite well, accept for the specified join & leave dedicated addresses for members to subscribe/unsubscribe.

When sending to ios-join at a11y.us, the message is rejected, as a "mailbox doesn't exist" type of error.
Same goes for ios-subscribe at a11y.us.

Any ideas on what I should explain to my I.T rep to review, so these requests can work?


Thank you.

Carlos

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Mon Nov  7 19:54:27 2011
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 18:54:27 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server request addresses not active
In-Reply-To: <96E5095F-D254-41F0-89A7-984663D44438@me.com>
References: <4EB81401.80807@kamens.us>
	<96E5095F-D254-41F0-89A7-984663D44438@me.com>
Message-ID: <20111107185427.GX21421@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 12:39:41PM -0500, Carlos Palomino wrote:
> I'm new to mailman and have recently installed the software on my CenOS server.
> 
> All is working quite well, accept for the specified join & leave dedicated addresses for members to subscribe/unsubscribe.
> 
> When sending to ios-join at a11y.us, the message is rejected, as a "mailbox doesn't exist" type of error.
> Same goes for ios-subscribe at a11y.us.

Configuring your MTA?

(add a second (and others, should you so wish) nameserver, too)

> Any ideas on what I should explain to my I.T rep to review, so these requests can work?

Did you get to step 6 of the installation instructions?
    http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/doc/mailman-install.txt

-- 
"Sitting in a church doesn't make you a Christian,
 any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car."

From carlos.palomino at me.com  Mon Nov  7 19:18:56 2011
From: carlos.palomino at me.com (Carlos Palomino)
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:18:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server request addresses not active
References: <96E5095F-D254-41F0-89A7-984663D44438@me.com>
Message-ID: <75D1E5C6-2C8A-4785-8C30-0240746612C6@me.com>

Hello list,

I'm new to mailman and have recently installed the software on my CenOS server.

All is working quite well, accept for the specified join & leave dedicated addresses for members to subscribe/unsubscribe.

When sending to ios-join at a11y.us, the message is rejected, as a "mailbox doesn't exist" type of error.
Same goes for ios-subscribe at a11y.us.

Any ideas on what I should explain to my I.T rep to review, so these requests can work?


Thank you.

Carlos


From carlos.palomino at me.com  Mon Nov  7 19:44:52 2011
From: carlos.palomino at me.com (Carlos Palomino)
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:44:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Update: Server request addresses not active
In-Reply-To: <96E5095F-D254-41F0-89A7-984663D44438@me.com>
References: <4EB81401.80807@kamens.us>
	<96E5095F-D254-41F0-89A7-984663D44438@me.com>
Message-ID: <A1798C57-5765-4B96-A478-5085A1E36C6C@me.com>

As an update to this issue:

We've discovered that replying to the verification emails also results in mail rejection.

Any ideas or exact details on what is wrong would be highly appreciated.


Carlos

On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Carlos Palomino wrote:

Hello list,

I'm new to mailman and have recently installed the software on my CenOS server.

All is working quite well, accept for the specified join & leave dedicated addresses for members to subscribe/unsubscribe.

When sending to ios-join at a11y.us, the message is rejected, as a "mailbox doesn't exist" type of error.
Same goes for ios-subscribe at a11y.us.

Any ideas on what I should explain to my I.T rep to review, so these requests can work?


Thank you.

Carlos
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/carlos.palomino%40me.com


From carlos.palomino at me.com  Mon Nov  7 19:47:21 2011
From: carlos.palomino at me.com (Carlos Palomino)
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:47:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Update: Server request addresses not active
References: <96E5095F-D254-41F0-89A7-984663D44438@me.com>
Message-ID: <8CA3C15D-C585-4537-902D-D1EE54F694E2@me.com>

As an update to this issue:

We've discovered that replying to the verification emails also results in mail rejection.

Any ideas or exact details on what is wrong would be highly appreciated.


Carlos


Original message:

Hello list,

I'm new to mailman and have recently installed the software on my CenOS server.

All is working quite well, accept for the specified join & leave dedicated addresses for members to subscribe/unsubscribe.

When sending to ios-join at a11y.us, the message is rejected, as a "mailbox doesn't exist" type of error.
Same goes for ios-subscribe at a11y.us.

Any ideas on what I should explain to my I.T rep to review, so these requests can work?


Thank you.

Carlos
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/carlos.palomino%40me.com


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  8 04:24:49 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 19:24:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman violates RFC 1153?
In-Reply-To: <4EB81401.80807@kamens.us>
Message-ID: <PC19520111107192449007806a84a3f@MSAPIRO>

Jonathan Kamens wrote:
>
>He sent me a sample digest, which ends like this:
>
>    ------------------------------
>
>    --
>    test mailing list
>    test at lists.fedoraproject.org
>    https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
>
>    End of test Digest, Vol 93, Issue 20
>    ************************************
>
>RFC 1153 has this to say about the digest trailer (emphasis added by me):
[...]
>I looked at the mailman source code and it doesn't appear that the 
>Fedora Project is running a hacked version; it appears that the standard 
>Mailman source code inserts the list footer as shown above as part of 
>the digest trailer, in violation of the RFC.


And if you looked at the source, you should have seen the following
comment immediately preceding the adding of the footer.

# BAW: This is not strictly conformant RFC 1153.  The trailer is only
# supposed to contain two lines, i.e. the "End of ... Digest" line and
# the row of asterisks.  If this screws up MUAs, the solution is to
# add the footer as the last message in the RFC 1153 digest.  I just
# hate the way that VM does that and I think it's confusing to users,
# so don't do it unless there's a clamor.


>I can and will work around this violation of the standard in my code, 
>but it makes the code significantly more complicated, and it's kind of 
>annoying to see the RFC being violated like this.


If you are intending to raise a clamor, you can file a bug report at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>.

Suppose the above were changed to

     ------------------------------

     Digest-Footer:

     --
     test mailing list
     test at lists.fedoraproject.org
     https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test

     ------------------------------

     End of test Digest, Vol 93, Issue 20
     ************************************

Would your code handle that or would it complain the Digest-Footer: is
not an allowable header and/or none of Date:, From:, To:, Cc:,
Subject:, Message-ID: and Keywords: were included?

What if it were just

     ------------------------------


     --
     test mailing list
     test at lists.fedoraproject.org
     https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test

     ------------------------------

     End of test Digest, Vol 93, Issue 20
     ************************************




-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jik at kamens.us  Tue Nov  8 04:39:15 2011
From: jik at kamens.us (Jonathan Kamens)
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:39:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman violates RFC 1153?
In-Reply-To: <PC19520111107192449007806a84a3f@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC19520111107192449007806a84a3f@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4EB8A463.6040504@kamens.us>

On 11/07/2011 10:24 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Jonathan Kamens wrote:
>> He sent me a sample digest, which ends like this:
>>
>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     --
>>     test mailing list
>>     test at lists.fedoraproject.org
>>     https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
>>
>>     End of test Digest, Vol 93, Issue 20
>>     ************************************
>>
>> RFC 1153 has this to say about the digest trailer (emphasis added by me):
> [...]
>> I looked at the mailman source code and it doesn't appear that the
>> Fedora Project is running a hacked version; it appears that the standard
>> Mailman source code inserts the list footer as shown above as part of
>> the digest trailer, in violation of the RFC.
>
> And if you looked at the source, you should have seen the following
> comment immediately preceding the adding of the footer.
>
> # BAW: This is not strictly conformant RFC 1153.  The trailer is only
> # supposed to contain two lines, i.e. the "End of ... Digest" line and
> # the row of asterisks.  If this screws up MUAs, the solution is to
> # add the footer as the last message in the RFC 1153 digest.  I just
> # hate the way that VM does that and I think it's confusing to users,
> # so don't do it unless there's a clamor.
LOL. Yes, I was looking right at that section of code, and my eyes just 
glossed right over the comment because my brain knew exactly what the 
code in question was doing and therefore saw no need to read the 
comments documenting it. D'oh.

>> I can and will work around this violation of the standard in my code,
>> but it makes the code significantly more complicated, and it's kind of
>> annoying to see the RFC being violated like this.
>
> If you are intending to raise a clamor, you can file a bug report at
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>.
I have raised as much of a clamor as I intended to. "I just hate the way 
that VM does that" is not in my mind a legitimate reason to violate the 
RFC. If you agree, then you can create your own bug report and fix it. 
If you disagree, then there's no point in my creating one.
> Suppose the above were changed to
>
>       ------------------------------
>
>       Digest-Footer:
>
>       --
>       test mailing list
>       test at lists.fedoraproject.org
>       https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
>
>       ------------------------------
>
>       End of test Digest, Vol 93, Issue 20
>       ************************************
>
> Would your code handle that or would it complain the Digest-Footer: is
> not an allowable header and/or none of Date:, From:, To:, Cc:,
> Subject:, Message-ID: and Keywords: were included?
My code would have handled that without complaint.
> What if it were just
>
>       ------------------------------
>
>
>       --
>       test mailing list
>       test at lists.fedoraproject.org
>       https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
>
>       ------------------------------
>
>       End of test Digest, Vol 93, Issue 20
>       ************************************
I think it would have handled that without complaint as well... The 
second blank line after the line of hyphens would have been interpreted 
as the terminating line after an empty header.

Note that I say "would have handled" in both of these cases because I've 
already modified my code to accommodate the non-complaint Mailman 
functionality. I would have to do that regardless of whether you fixed 
Mailman to be compliant now, because such a fix would not make it out to 
a substantial majority of Mailman sites for several years, even if you 
released it today.

Thanks for the reply.

   jik

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  8 05:16:56 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 20:16:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Update: Server request addresses not active
In-Reply-To: <A1798C57-5765-4B96-A478-5085A1E36C6C@me.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952011110720165609063cb75202@MSAPIRO>

Carlos Palomino wrote:

>As an update to this issue:
>
>We've discovered that replying to the verification emails also results in mail rejection.
>
>Any ideas or exact details on what is wrong would be highly appreciated.


Your incoming MTA needs aliases or other programmatic instruction for
delivering to all 9 (-admin, -bounces, -confirm, -request, -owner,
-join, -leave, -subscribe and -unsubscribe) of the LISTNAME-*@...
addresses in addition to LISTNAME at ....

As Adam McGregor suggested, see section 6 of the installation manual at
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/mail-server.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From barry at list.org  Tue Nov  8 16:22:44 2011
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:22:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman violates RFC 1153?
In-Reply-To: <PC19520111107192449007806a84a3f@MSAPIRO>
References: <4EB81401.80807@kamens.us>
	<PC19520111107192449007806a84a3f@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <20111108102244.4e7df2c9@limelight.wooz.org>

On Nov 07, 2011, at 07:24 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>And if you looked at the source, you should have seen the following
>comment immediately preceding the adding of the footer.
>
># BAW: This is not strictly conformant RFC 1153.  The trailer is only
># supposed to contain two lines, i.e. the "End of ... Digest" line and
># the row of asterisks.  If this screws up MUAs, the solution is to
># add the footer as the last message in the RFC 1153 digest.  I just
># hate the way that VM does that and I think it's confusing to users,
># so don't do it unless there's a clamor.

Just to mention, I haven't used VM in a bajillion years, and in fact I very
rarely use digests at all these days.  So while this was very definitely a
case of "I get to make my playground work for me", I have no problem with this
code getting fixed to actually support the RFC, and not allowing a workaround
for an obscure MUA break things for everyone else.

Cheers,
-Barry

From barry at list.org  Tue Nov  8 16:28:00 2011
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:28:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman violates RFC 1153?
In-Reply-To: <4EB8A463.6040504@kamens.us>
References: <PC19520111107192449007806a84a3f@MSAPIRO>
	<4EB8A463.6040504@kamens.us>
Message-ID: <20111108102800.16730089@limelight.wooz.org>

On Nov 07, 2011, at 10:39 PM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:

>I have raised as much of a clamor as I intended to. "I just hate the way that
>VM does that" is not in my mind a legitimate reason to violate the RFC. If
>you agree, then you can create your own bug report and fix it. If you
>disagree, then there's no point in my creating one.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/887610

Right now it's milestoned to MM3.0beta1, and I'll leave it up to Mark to add a
bug task for MM2.1.

Cheers,
-Barry

From elmailpersonal at gmail.com  Mon Nov  7 17:22:11 2011
From: elmailpersonal at gmail.com (deconya)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:22:11 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list not accepts mails
Message-ID: <CAPsDG5EXoybieD6a4FzS=ehqa7XqDeTtCUJF_ui6v=P=hwSe4g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi

Im using mailman and Im having a problem only with one list. When I
send a mail only appears logs in two files, smtp and vette. The list
has the moderation bit activated, but never arrives to the queue.

first appears:

Nov 07 17:11:48 2011 (5454)
<mailman.0.1320682307.18316.alum at lists.esci.es> smtp to alum for 1
recips, completed in 0.024 seconds
Nov 07 17:11:48 2011 (5454)
<mailman.1.1320682307.18316.alum at lists.esci.es> smtp to alum for 4
recips, completed in 0.064 seconds

and finally in vette log:
Nov 07 17:12:42 2011 (5452) Message discarded, msgid:
<1320682361.4077.1.camel at infolinux>

I can't localize any error but it's a big list (1300 users) and the
log is so strange no?

Any idea?

Thanks

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  8 18:08:17 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:08:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list not accepts mails
In-Reply-To: <CAPsDG5EXoybieD6a4FzS=ehqa7XqDeTtCUJF_ui6v=P=hwSe4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111080908170953c18bf8ca@MSAPIRO>

deconya wrote:
>
>Im using mailman and Im having a problem only with one list. When I
>send a mail only appears logs in two files, smtp and vette. The list
>has the moderation bit activated, but never arrives to the queue.
>
>first appears:
>
>Nov 07 17:11:48 2011 (5454)
><mailman.0.1320682307.18316.alum at lists.esci.es> smtp to alum for 1
>recips, completed in 0.024 seconds
>Nov 07 17:11:48 2011 (5454)
><mailman.1.1320682307.18316.alum at lists.esci.es> smtp to alum for 4
>recips, completed in 0.064 seconds


This is a notice (probably a held message notice) sent first to
alum-owner and then resent to the owners and moderators.


>and finally in vette log:
>Nov 07 17:12:42 2011 (5452) Message discarded, msgid:
><1320682361.4077.1.camel at infolinux>


This is a bit strange. It is almost an hour after the above notice, yet
the PID (5452) is very close to the PID (5454) of OutgoingRunner which
wrote the smtp log entries.

What process is PID 5452 (ps -fw 5452)? Is it CommandRunner? If so,
maybe one of the 4 owners/moderators received the held message notice
and replied to the confirmation, except in that case, the vette log
message would look different.

The above vette log message looks like the message written by
IncomingRunner when a handler discards a message.

Are you sure the smtp log messages have anything to do with the message
that was discarded an hour later? If they did, there should be other
vette loge entries at the time of the smtp log entries.

It looks to me that the message was simply discarded by
IncommingRunner. This can happen for several reasons.

Post matched a header_filter_rules rule with a Discard action.

Post was from a non-member in discard_these_nonmembers.

Post was from a non-member and generic_nonmember_action is Discard.

Content filtering filter_content is Yes, filter_action is Discard and
all the post's content was removed - e.g. an HTML only post if the
list doesn't accept HTML.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dandrews at visi.com  Wed Nov  9 09:55:26 2011
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 02:55:26 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Character Permitted
Message-ID: <auto-000035750186@mailfront3.g2host.com>

Is the "&" character allowed in a list name, such as in:  "art&artists?"

Thanks!


From mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de  Wed Nov  9 16:25:53 2011
From: mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de (Mailman Admin)
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:25:53 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Character Permitted
In-Reply-To: <auto-000035750186@mailfront3.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000035750186@mailfront3.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <4EBA9B81.7060501@uni-konstanz.de>

On 2011-11-09 09:55, David Andrews wrote:
> Is the "&" character allowed in a list name, such as in:  "art&artists?"

No, as it must be a valid email address.
In email addresses are only the following characters allowed
a to z
A to Z
0 to 9
.
-
_



Kind regards,
Christian Mack

From tim at titley.com  Wed Nov  9 04:19:36 2011
From: tim at titley.com (Tim)
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 03:19:36 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sibling lists and list unsubscribe headers
Message-ID: <4EB9F148.3010501@titley.com>

Hi All,

I've set up a number of announce-lists and have nearly got things how I 
want them except for one issue.

Here is my setup:

3 lists - parentList, siblingList1, siblingList2

siblingList1 and siblingList2 are set in regular_include_lists for 
parentList.

user at domain.com is in lists siblingList1 and siblingList2

Everything is working perfectly as expected except for the list 
unsubscribe headers which refer to parentList.

Firstly, the unsubscribe will never work because user at domain.com is not 
subscribed to parentList, and secondly, unless messages are sent to 
siblingList1 and siblingList2 (which is infrequent), the user will never 
be given the opportunity to unsubscribe.

Is there anything I can do to make the headers etc match a list that 
user at domain.com is actually subscribed to?

I have searched high and low but can't find a solution to my problem so 
any help/pointers would be much appreciated.

Kind Regards,

Tim

From mailmanu-20100705 at billmail.scconsult.com  Wed Nov  9 17:35:25 2011
From: mailmanu-20100705 at billmail.scconsult.com (Bill Cole)
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:35:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Character Permitted
In-Reply-To: <4EBA9B81.7060501@uni-konstanz.de>
References: <auto-000035750186@mailfront3.g2host.com>
	<4EBA9B81.7060501@uni-konstanz.de>
Message-ID: <4EBAABCD.8060701@billmail.scconsult.com>

Mailman Admin wrote, On 11/9/11 10:25 AM:
> On 2011-11-09 09:55, David Andrews wrote:
>> Is the "&" character allowed in a list name, such as in:  "art&artists?"
>
> No, as it must be a valid email address.
> In email addresses are only the following characters allowed
> a to z
> A to Z
> 0 to 9
> .
> -
> _


That is quite significantly incorrect.

Refer to RFC5322 section 3.2.3 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#page-13) 
which defines the syntax of the "atom" and its sub-unit "atext" which are 
the building blocks for the local part of an email address. The allowed 
characters (the "atext" set) in the "atom" components of an address 
local-part (delimited by '.') which do not use the unusual quoted string 
syntax are all printable ASCII except for whitespace and these 13 characters:

<>[]()@;:.\,"

That character set has been unchanged in the Internet Message Format RFC's 
going back to RFC822. Obviously, the '.' is barred from the "atom" 
components of a local-part because it is used between them. See RFC5322 for 
the full ABNF spec. RFC5321 (the SMTP specification) refers to the RFC5322 
spec.

Whether *Mailman* handles '&' correctly in a list name is a different 
question. There are many cases of mail software being more restrictive than 
the specification about addresses, and I have not dug into the Mailman docs 
to nail down what it will accept as a list name. Also, I would be very 
uneasy about using any character (like '&') which is commonly used with 
special meaning in languages that are popular on Unix systems. I know that 
Python is generally pretty good about strings containing metacharacters, but 
when you send mail you never know what else other than your own tools will 
have to handle it. In a world full of perl, shell, m4, and sendmail.cfese I 
would be very dubious about using addresses containing ampersands, 
backticks, apostrophes, and other theoretically acceptable characters. They 
are formally legal but if you are picking an address to use, you should 
avoid making making such challenges to code quality.



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov  9 17:59:32 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:59:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Character Permitted
In-Reply-To: <auto-000035750186@mailfront3.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952011110908593203596961aec7@MSAPIRO>

David Andrews wrote:

>Is the "&" character allowed in a list name, such as in:  "art&artists?"


It depends on your Mailman version, but it is not a good idea. In
Mailman prior to 2.1.11, you could create a list with an & in its
name. In 2.1.11 and subsequent versions, the only characters allowed
in list names are defined by the character class assignment

ACCEPTABLE_LISTNAME_CHARACTERS = '[-+_.=a-z0-9]'

in Defaults.py. You could put

ACCEPTABLE_LISTNAME_CHARACTERS = '[-+_.=a-z0-9&]'

in mm_cfg.py to accept list names with an &, however the restriction of
list name characters to letters, digits, hyphen/minus, plus,
underscore, period and equals is intended to prevent the problems that
result if & and other shell special characters are allowed in list
names.

Consider that if your MTA delivers to lists via aliases and you have
list aliases like

art&artists:   "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post art&artists"

instead of piping a post to art&artists to the
/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman wrapper with arguments post and
art&artists, the shell invoked by the MTA might pipe the post to
art&artists in the background to the /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman
wrapper with arguments post and art and then execute the command
artists.

You might be able to work around this by escaping the & as in

art&artists:   "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post art\&artists"

but if your aliases are generated automatically, e.g. via MTA =
'Postfix', the generated aliases won't be escaped.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov  9 18:40:14 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 09:40:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sibling lists and list unsubscribe headers
In-Reply-To: <4EB9F148.3010501@titley.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111090940140390900b8d14@MSAPIRO>

Tim wrote:
>
>Here is my setup:
>
>3 lists - parentList, siblingList1, siblingList2
>
>siblingList1 and siblingList2 are set in regular_include_lists for 
>parentList.
>
>user at domain.com is in lists siblingList1 and siblingList2
>
>Everything is working perfectly as expected except for the list 
>unsubscribe headers which refer to parentList.
>
Firstly, the unsubscribe will never work because user at domain.com is not 
subscribed to parentList, and secondly, unless messages are sent to 
siblingList1 and siblingList2 (which is infrequent), the user will
never 
be given the opportunity to unsubscribe.


If posts to the individual sub-lists are infrequent, you could just
have a single list and let those members of only one list receive the
infrequent, off-topic posts.


>Is there anything I can do to make the headers etc match a list that 
>user at domain.com is actually subscribed to?


Not with regular_include_lists used in this way.

You could set up your parent list as an umbrella list with the other
lists as members, but then you have the problem of duplicate messages
to people who are members of both sub-lists which is presumably what
you are trying to avoid by using sibling lists.

You could consider one of the other duplicate avoidance methods from
the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/TIA9> (I just added a note to that
FAQ about this issue).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From barry at list.org  Sun Nov 13 00:31:29 2011
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:31:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman lists now available on Gmane
Message-ID: <20111112183129.0f23c183@resist.wooz.org>

I'm very happy to announce that at long last, the main GNU Mailman mailing
lists hosted at python.org are now available on Gmane.  This includes:

    mailman-announce
    mailman-developers
    mailman-users
    mailman-i18n

All of the archives for these lists have been imported as well.

If you're not familiar with Gmane, I strongly encourage you to take a look.
It's an amazing service for the free software and open source community.

    http://gmane.org/

While web archives are available, for me, the NNTP access is the really cool
thing.  If your mail reader can speak NNTP (the good and still useful part of
Usenet :), then you just need to subscribe to the newsgroups and you can read
entire threads of discussion from the past.  After the first email
verification dance, you can even post to the newsgroup and it will show up on
the mailing list.

I'm on a personal mission to stop archiving any publicly available mailing
lists, and what this means to me is that I can just about halve my inbox!
Here are some links:

    http://gmane.org/find.php?list=mailman-announce
    http://gmane.org/find.php?list=mailman-developers
    http://gmane.org/find.php?list=mailman-users
    http://gmane.org/find.php?list=mailman-i18n

The NNTP interface is also a model of what I'd love to see Mailman 3
eventually provide by default (not to steal any thunder from Gmane).

My thanks to Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen who runs Gmame, and to the python.org
postmasters for all their help in getting this set up.

Enjoy,
-Barry
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From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov 13 22:45:34 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:45:34 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Misleading Email response. Please fix!
In-Reply-To: <PC195201111041700400468257967bc@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC195201111041700400468257967bc@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4EC03A7E.6050909@msapiro.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Please report this as a bug at
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>.

Nevermind. I reported and fixed it
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/889968>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 14:16:13 2011
From: c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com (Chris Petrik)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:16:13 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
Message-ID: <4EC1149D.5040208@gmail.com>

Hello,

I am getting these errors when I try to send a email to my list.


Nov 14 06:53:23 2011 (28413) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 1] 
Operation not permitted
Nov 14 06:53:23 2011 (28413) Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 133, 
in _dispose
     mlist.Save()
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 572, in Save
     self.__save(dict)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
     os.link(fname, fname_last)
OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted

Nov 14 06:53:23 2011 (28413) SHUNTING: 
1321275203.2377739+24351497a8000b37825224c0f6b4765a4fbb5204
Nov 14 06:53:24 2011 (28416) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 1] 
Operation not permitted
Nov 14 06:53:24 2011 (28416) Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/VirginRunner.py", line 38, in 
_dispose
     return IncomingRunner._dispose(self, mlist, msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 133, 
in _dispose
     mlist.Save()
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 572, in Save
     self.__save(dict)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
     os.link(fname, fname_last)
OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted

Nov 14 06:53:24 2011 (28416) SHUNTING: 
1321275203.398454+e7937dfb2a6017ed81d244bd5edf34564d46f9c1
Nov 14 06:53:24 2011 (28416) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 1] 
Operation not permitted
Nov 14 06:53:24 2011 (28416) Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/VirginRunner.py", line 38, in 
_dispose
     return IncomingRunner._dispose(self, mlist, msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 133, 
in _dispose
     mlist.Save()
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 572, in Save
     self.__save(dict)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
     os.link(fname, fname_last)
OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted

Nov 14 06:53:24 2011 (28416) SHUNTING: 
1321275203.400665+6a2e2200879ad044ec161ec0490dc757227ce1fd
Nov 14 06:53:25 2011 (28413) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 1] 
Operation not permitted
Nov 14 06:53:25 2011 (28413) Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 133, 
in _dispose
     mlist.Save()
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 572, in Save
     self.__save(dict)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
     os.link(fname, fname_last)
OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted

Nov 14 06:53:25 2011 (28413) SHUNTING: 
1321275205.187561+c85fcf56a61feb201e53bf2582de0866e9f36feb
Nov 14 06:53:26 2011 (28416) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 1] 
Operation not permitted
Nov 14 06:53:26 2011 (28416) Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/VirginRunner.py", line 38, in 
_dispose
     return IncomingRunner._dispose(self, mlist, msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 133, 
in _dispose
     mlist.Save()
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 572, in Save
     self.__save(dict)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
     os.link(fname, fname_last)
OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted

Nov 14 06:53:26 2011 (28416) SHUNTING: 
1321275206.4117429+635f463d9d6b7c4840165a6941ede711e8b8e7f0
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415): Traceback (most recent call last):
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 278, in <module>
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):      main()
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 238, in main
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):      qrunner.run()
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 88, in run
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):      self._cleanup()
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/OutgoingRunner.py", line 137, in _cleanup
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):      BounceMixin._cleanup(self)
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py", line 137, in _cleanup
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):      self._register_bounces()
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py", line 126, in 
_register_bounces
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):      mlist.Save()
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 572, in Save
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):      self.__save(dict)
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415):      os.link(fname, fname_last)
Nov 14 06:55:04 2011 qrunner(28415): OSError :  [Errno 1] Operation not 
permitted


From geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Mon Nov 14 21:30:29 2011
From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:30:29 +0200 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Misleading Email response. Please fix!
In-Reply-To: <4EC03A7E.6050909@msapiro.net>
References: <PC195201111041700400468257967bc@MSAPIRO>
	<4EC03A7E.6050909@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111142230000.2773@data.home>

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> Please report this as a bug at
>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>.
>
> Nevermind. I reported and fixed it
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/889968>.

Thanks very much!

Geoff.


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 15 04:40:39 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 19:40:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <4EC1149D.5040208@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111141940390250003107e1@MSAPIRO>

Chris Petrik wrote:
>
>I am getting these errors when I try to send a email to my list.
>
>
>Nov 14 06:53:23 2011 (28413) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 1] 
>Operation not permitted
>Nov 14 06:53:23 2011 (28413) Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
>     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
>     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 133, 
>in _dispose
>     mlist.Save()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 572, in Save
>     self.__save(dict)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
>     os.link(fname, fname_last)
>OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted


Mailman's IncomingRunner is trying to save an updated list object. It
has saved it to lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.tmp.HOSTNAME.PID. It then
tries to remove lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.last, create
lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.last as a hard link to
lists/LISTNAME/config.pck and finally rename
lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.tmp.HOSTNAME.PID to
lists/LISTNAME/config.pck .
The creation of lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.last as a hard link to
lists/LISTNAME/config.pck is being denied by the OS.

It's not too likely, but this may be a permissions issue that can be
fixed by running Mailman's bin/check_perms -f as root.

More likely, SELinux or some other security manager is involved.

See the results of this search
<http://www.google.com/search?q=site:mail.python.org+inurl%3Amailman+os.link%28fname%2C+fname_last%29+OSError%3A+[Errno+1]+Operation+not+permitted>


>Nov 14 06:53:23 2011 (28413) SHUNTING: 
>1321275203.2377739+24351497a8000b37825224c0f6b4765a4fbb5204


Because of the above exception, the message has been moved to the shunt
queue where it can be reprocessed after the underlying problem is
resolved by running Mailman's bin/unshunt.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com  Tue Nov 15 14:57:46 2011
From: c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com (Chris Petrik)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:57:46 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <PC195201111141940390250003107e1@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC195201111141940390250003107e1@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4EC26FDA.3010902@gmail.com>

On 11/14/2011 9:40 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Chris Petrik wrote:
>> I am getting these errors when I try to send a email to my list.
>>
>>
>> Nov 14 06:53:23 2011 (28413) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 1]
>> Operation not permitted
>> Nov 14 06:53:23 2011 (28413) Traceback (most recent call last):
>>    File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
>>      self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>>    File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
>>      keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>>    File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 133,
>> in _dispose
>>      mlist.Save()
>>    File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 572, in Save
>>      self.__save(dict)
>>    File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
>>      os.link(fname, fname_last)
>> OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted
>
> Mailman's IncomingRunner is trying to save an updated list object. It
> has saved it to lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.tmp.HOSTNAME.PID. It then
> tries to remove lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.last, create
> lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.last as a hard link to
> lists/LISTNAME/config.pck and finally rename
> lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.tmp.HOSTNAME.PID to
> lists/LISTNAME/config.pck .
> The creation of lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.last as a hard link to
> lists/LISTNAME/config.pck is being denied by the OS.
>
> It's not too likely, but this may be a permissions issue that can be
> fixed by running Mailman's bin/check_perms -f as root.
>
> More likely, SELinux or some other security manager is involved.
>
> See the results of this search
> <http://www.google.com/search?q=site:mail.python.org+inurl%3Amailman+os.link%28fname%2C+fname_last%29+OSError%3A+[Errno+1]+Operation+not+permitted>
>
>
>> Nov 14 06:53:23 2011 (28413) SHUNTING:
>> 1321275203.2377739+24351497a8000b37825224c0f6b4765a4fbb5204
>
> Because of the above exception, the message has been moved to the shunt
> queue where it can be reprocessed after the underlying problem is
> resolved by running Mailman's bin/unshunt.
>
I ran check-perms -f it fixed a couple perms, but did not fix the

File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
     os.link(fname, fname_last)
OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted

I am not using selinux as the OS is FreeBSD not sure where else to look.


From toneal at suffolk.edu  Tue Nov 15 16:17:11 2011
From: toneal at suffolk.edu (Tim O'Neal)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:17:11 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives Display not Formatting Properly
Message-ID: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B282E5E@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>

Friends,

I'm migrating my list server from Solaris 10 w/Apache 2.2.17 to RHEL 6 w/Apache 2.2.19 (or .21).  For the life of me, I can't get the archive display to show anything other than what I've posted below (which is an Apache-httpd directory listing).  If I have my Apache directory "options -Indexes", I don't get the listing at all, but if I have my Apache directory "options +Indexes" I get the listing below ===> (a standard apache directory listing).

What I want to get is the standard Mailman archives display as follows:

Everything else in my Mailman installation seems to work ..... using Postfix, etc.

BTW, I'm using Apache mpm-itk core because I'm using this web server with many different Apache virtual  hosts, which mpm-itk permits each virtual host to run within its own process/user/group, i.e. mailman/mailman.

Any thoughts?

TIA,

Tim
The Stu_serv_dir Archives

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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 15 17:35:04 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:35:04 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <4EC26FDA.3010902@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520111115083504025047d951fe@MSAPIRO>

Chris Petrik wrote:

>I ran check-perms -f it fixed a couple perms, but did not fix the
>
>File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
>     os.link(fname, fname_last)
>OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted
>
>I am not using selinux as the OS is FreeBSD not sure where else to look.


Look in Mailman's lists/LISTNAME/ directory. I think you will see one
config.pck file, no config.pck.last file and one or more
config.pck.tmp.* files.

As the Mailman user (_mailman on FreeBSD ?) try to cd to the
lists/LISTNAME/ directory and for one (or the only) config.pck.tmp.*
file try

ln config.pck.tmp.whatever config.pck.last

If that fails, figure out why.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com  Tue Nov 15 17:48:54 2011
From: c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com (Chris Petrik)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:48:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <PC19520111115083504025047d951fe@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC19520111115083504025047d951fe@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4EC297F6.8080603@gmail.com>

On 11/15/2011 10:35 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Chris Petrik wrote:
>
>> I ran check-perms -f it fixed a couple perms, but did not fix the
>>
>> File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, in __save
>>      os.link(fname, fname_last)
>> OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted
>>
>> I am not using selinux as the OS is FreeBSD not sure where else to look.
>
> Look in Mailman's lists/LISTNAME/ directory. I think you will see one
> config.pck file, no config.pck.last file and one or more
> config.pck.tmp.* files.
>
> As the Mailman user (_mailman on FreeBSD ?) try to cd to the
> lists/LISTNAME/ directory and for one (or the only) config.pck.tmp.*
> file try
>
> ln config.pck.tmp.whatever config.pck.last
>
> If that fails, figure out why.
>
Fist off I had to remove the nologin and replace it with csh using chsh 
-s csh mailman to su - mailman
or else I get:
hosting# su - mailman
This account is currently not available.
hosting# id mailman
uid=91(mailman) gid=91(mailman) groups=91(mailman),26(mailnull)

Once that was done I was in the root dir: /usr/local/mailman which is fine

hosting# su - mailman
%id
uid=91(mailman) gid=91(mailman) groups=91(mailman)
%ls
Mailman         cron            locks           pending.pck     spam
archives        data            logs            pythonlib       templates
bin             icons           mail            qfiles          tests
cgi-bin         lists           messages        scripts
%pwd
/usr/local/mailman

% cd lists/services-officialunix.com
%ls -l |wc -l
        8
%
%ls -l
total 24
-rw-rw----  1 www      mailman  3792 Nov 15 07:35 config.pck
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 08:03 
config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.30747
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3835 Nov 15 08:00 
config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74443
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 07:48 
config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74445
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 08:00 
config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74446
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   131 Nov 15 07:37 pending.pck
-rw-rw-r--  1 mailman  mailman   599 Nov 15 07:37 request.pck
%ln config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74446 config.pck.last
%ls
config.pck
config.pck.last

Chris











From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Tue Nov 15 20:57:25 2011
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:57:25 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bounces not getting through for processing
In-Reply-To: <PC1952011103115152902188e1866b7@MSAPIRO>
References: <20111031230941.58c2940e@pandora>
	<PC1952011103115152902188e1866b7@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <20111115215725.5b956cee@pandora>

Hello, Mark,


On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:15:29 -0700
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Anne Wainwright wrote:
> >
> >I queried this with my isp provider who queried it with IS (Internet
> >Solutions, smtp server & backbone provider) who said that ',' should
> >work. That has me worried, did they misunderstand my query?
> 
> 
> I'm sure they misunderstood. ',' is a delimiter between email
> addresses, not a delimiter between a local part and a local part
> suffix in a single address.
Right, it straightway plonks back a message about the address missing a
'@'
> 
> 
> >I'll have to
> >adjust the regex given in the FAQ. Should I try this or is this so
> >unusual as to be unlikely?
> 
> 
> 
> >I do have all 10 addresses now, just to be sure.
> 
> 
> OK. First make sure that the fables-list Bounce processing ->
> bounce_unrecognized_goes_to_list_owner setting is Yes.
> 	
> Then send test messages via the relay server to
> <fables-list-bounces at fables.co.za>,
> <fables-list-bounces+xxx at fables.co.za> and
> <fables-list-bounces-xxx at fables.co.za>. These messages can be very
> simple, say both subject and body containing just 'test' or something
> similar.
> 
> The message to <fables-list-bounces at fables.co.za> should definitely
> result in an unrecognized bounce notice to the list owner. One or both
> of the others may result in a rejection by the relay, but at least one
> may get relayed to the Mailman server and result in an unrecognized
> bounce notice to the list owner.
> 
> If none get through, there is still a problem with the relay. If only
> the <fables-list-bounces at fables.co.za> message gets through, you can't
> use VERP. If one of the others gets through, you can use VERP with the
> corresponding delimiter.
We can't use VERP as neither got through

-bounces messages were being passed to /var/mail/sendmail and stacking
up there. They indicated that there was no such address. I never did
see the exact fault but it was likely something with the aliases as
after checking, tidying, etc, all of a sudden we were up and running
with bounce processing operational. All other addresses could be seen
to be going, particularly noticeable being the -request address, but
-bounces was not processed.

Thank you for the help

Anne

> 

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 15 23:37:50 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:37:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <4EC297F6.8080603@gmail.com>
References: <PC19520111115083504025047d951fe@MSAPIRO>
	<4EC297F6.8080603@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EC2E9BE.4070903@msapiro.net>

On 11/15/2011 8:48 AM, Chris Petrik wrote:
> 
> % cd lists/services-officialunix.com
> %ls -l |wc -l
>        8
> %
> %ls -l
> total 24
> -rw-rw----  1 www      mailman  3792 Nov 15 07:35 config.pck
> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 08:03
> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.30747
> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3835 Nov 15 08:00
> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74443
> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 07:48
> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74445
> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 08:00
> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74446
> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   131 Nov 15 07:37 pending.pck
> -rw-rw-r--  1 mailman  mailman   599 Nov 15 07:37 request.pck
> %ln config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74446 config.pck.last
> %ls
> config.pck
> config.pck.last

Actually, I gave you the wrong advice. The ln command should have been

ln config.pck config.pck.last

If that works, instead of trying this via the ln command, you could try
it in a python process. Again as user mailman in mailman's home directory do

bin/withlist -i

This will respond with a few lines followed by a >>> prompt. At the
prompts enter

import os
os.unlink('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')

(ignore any non-existant file exception)

os.link('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck',
'lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')

You can enter that all on one line, or you can enter

os.link('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck',

which will result in a ... prompt to which you enter

'lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')

If that works, the question is why can you do it as mailman, but the
qrunners can't? Did you start Mailman by running bin/mailmanctl start as
root? If not, stop Mailman and then start is as root.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From toneal at suffolk.edu  Tue Nov 15 23:59:56 2011
From: toneal at suffolk.edu (Tim O'Neal)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:59:56 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives Display Working Properly Now
Message-ID: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B284B59@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>

Many thanks and my apologies for asking an apparently non-Mailman question.

My solution was to use DirectoryIndex index.html  within the virtual host definition.
I had had the DirectoryIndex within as follows:

<IfModule dir_module>
   DirectoryIndex index.html 
</IfModule>

This didn't seem to work.  It might have to do with my using the mpm-itk apache core!

Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+toneal=suffolk.edu at python.org [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+toneal=suffolk.edu at python.org] On Behalf Of Tim O'Neal
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:17 AM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives Display not Formatting Properly

Friends,

I'm migrating my list server from Solaris 10 w/Apache 2.2.17 to RHEL 6 w/Apache 2.2.19 (or .21).  For the life of me, I can't get the archive display to show anything other than what I've posted below (which is an Apache-httpd directory listing).  If I have my Apache directory "options -Indexes", I don't get the listing at all, but if I have my Apache directory "options +Indexes" I get the listing below ===> (a standard apache directory listing).

What I want to get is the standard Mailman archives display as follows:

Everything else in my Mailman installation seems to work ..... using Postfix, etc.

BTW, I'm using Apache mpm-itk core because I'm using this web server with many different Apache virtual  hosts, which mpm-itk permits each virtual host to run within its own process/user/group, i.e. mailman/mailman.

Any thoughts?

TIA,

Tim
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From c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 00:00:05 2011
From: c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com (Chris Petrik)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:00:05 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <4EC2E9BE.4070903@msapiro.net>
References: <PC19520111115083504025047d951fe@MSAPIRO>
	<4EC297F6.8080603@gmail.com> <4EC2E9BE.4070903@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <4EC2EEF5.3010506@gmail.com>

On 11/15/2011 4:37 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 11/15/2011 8:48 AM, Chris Petrik wrote:
>> % cd lists/services-officialunix.com
>> %ls -l |wc -l
>>         8
>> %
>> %ls -l
>> total 24
>> -rw-rw----  1 www      mailman  3792 Nov 15 07:35 config.pck
>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 08:03
>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.30747
>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3835 Nov 15 08:00
>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74443
>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 07:48
>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74445
>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 08:00
>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74446
>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   131 Nov 15 07:37 pending.pck
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 mailman  mailman   599 Nov 15 07:37 request.pck
>> %ln config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74446 config.pck.last
>> %ls
>> config.pck
>> config.pck.last
> Actually, I gave you the wrong advice. The ln command should have been
>
> ln config.pck config.pck.last
>
> If that works, instead of trying this via the ln command, you could try
> it in a python process. Again as user mailman in mailman's home directory do
>
> bin/withlist -i
>
> This will respond with a few lines followed by a>>>  prompt. At the
> prompts enter
>
> import os
> os.unlink('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')
>
> (ignore any non-existant file exception)
>
> os.link('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck',
> 'lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')
>
> You can enter that all on one line, or you can enter
>
> os.link('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck',
>
> which will result in a ... prompt to which you enter
>
> 'lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')
>
> If that works, the question is why can you do it as mailman, but the
> qrunners can't? Did you start Mailman by running bin/mailmanctl start as
> root? If not, stop Mailman and then start is as root.
>
Hello,

First that option gave me an error as the file config.pck was owned by 
www I changed it to root:mailman still gave me a perm error so I changed 
it to mailmail:mailman and it worked.

Did the bin/withlist -i and it did the os.unlink and os.link commands 
without issue.

After changing the perms I see that it now works without issue. Guess my 
webpanel is the culprit. I will see if I can try and inform the 
developers of this so I don't have to be changing the perms to make 
mailman work.

Thank you Mark for pointing these thing out to me :)

Chris



From c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 00:09:10 2011
From: c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com (Chris Petrik)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:09:10 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <4EC2EEF5.3010506@gmail.com>
References: <PC19520111115083504025047d951fe@MSAPIRO>
	<4EC297F6.8080603@gmail.com> <4EC2E9BE.4070903@msapiro.net>
	<4EC2EEF5.3010506@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EC2F116.1050008@gmail.com>

On 11/15/2011 5:00 PM, Chris Petrik wrote:
> On 11/15/2011 4:37 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 11/15/2011 8:48 AM, Chris Petrik wrote:
>>> % cd lists/services-officialunix.com
>>> %ls -l |wc -l
>>>         8
>>> %
>>> %ls -l
>>> total 24
>>> -rw-rw----  1 www      mailman  3792 Nov 15 07:35 config.pck
>>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 08:03
>>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.30747
>>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3835 Nov 15 08:00
>>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74443
>>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 07:48
>>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74445
>>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 08:00
>>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74446
>>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   131 Nov 15 07:37 pending.pck
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 mailman  mailman   599 Nov 15 07:37 request.pck
>>> %ln config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74446 config.pck.last
>>> %ls
>>> config.pck
>>> config.pck.last
>> Actually, I gave you the wrong advice. The ln command should have been
>>
>> ln config.pck config.pck.last
>>
>> If that works, instead of trying this via the ln command, you could try
>> it in a python process. Again as user mailman in mailman's home 
>> directory do
>>
>> bin/withlist -i
>>
>> This will respond with a few lines followed by a>>>  prompt. At the
>> prompts enter
>>
>> import os
>> os.unlink('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')
>>
>> (ignore any non-existant file exception)
>>
>> os.link('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck',
>> 'lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')
>>
>> You can enter that all on one line, or you can enter
>>
>> os.link('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck',
>>
>> which will result in a ... prompt to which you enter
>>
>> 'lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')
>>
>> If that works, the question is why can you do it as mailman, but the
>> qrunners can't? Did you start Mailman by running bin/mailmanctl start as
>> root? If not, stop Mailman and then start is as root.
>>
> Hello,
>
> First that option gave me an error as the file config.pck was owned by 
> www I changed it to root:mailman still gave me a perm error so I 
> changed it to mailmail:mailman and it worked.
>
> Did the bin/withlist -i and it did the os.unlink and os.link commands 
> without issue.
>
> After changing the perms I see that it now works without issue. Guess 
> my webpanel is the culprit. I will see if I can try and inform the 
> developers of this so I don't have to be changing the perms to make 
> mailman work.
>
> Thank you Mark for pointing these thing out to me :)
>
> Chris
>
>
Hello,

Now when I try to go to the admin section of the webui for the mailing I 
get the bug page. Which is easily fixed by changing the owner from 
mailman to www.

I tried adding mailman to group www but that doesn't seem to work.

Chris


From c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 00:29:03 2011
From: c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com (Chris Petrik)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:29:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <4EC2F116.1050008@gmail.com>
References: <PC19520111115083504025047d951fe@MSAPIRO>
	<4EC297F6.8080603@gmail.com> <4EC2E9BE.4070903@msapiro.net>
	<4EC2EEF5.3010506@gmail.com> <4EC2F116.1050008@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EC2F5BF.7020703@gmail.com>

On 11/15/2011 5:09 PM, Chris Petrik wrote:
> On 11/15/2011 5:00 PM, Chris Petrik wrote:
>> On 11/15/2011 4:37 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2011 8:48 AM, Chris Petrik wrote:
>>>> % cd lists/services-officialunix.com
>>>> %ls -l |wc -l
>>>>         8
>>>> %
>>>> %ls -l
>>>> total 24
>>>> -rw-rw----  1 www      mailman  3792 Nov 15 07:35 config.pck
>>>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 08:03
>>>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.30747
>>>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3835 Nov 15 08:00
>>>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74443
>>>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 07:48
>>>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74445
>>>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  3792 Nov 15 08:00
>>>> config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74446
>>>> -rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   131 Nov 15 07:37 pending.pck
>>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 mailman  mailman   599 Nov 15 07:37 request.pck
>>>> %ln config.pck.tmp.hosting.officialunix.com.74446 config.pck.last
>>>> %ls
>>>> config.pck
>>>> config.pck.last
>>> Actually, I gave you the wrong advice. The ln command should have been
>>>
>>> ln config.pck config.pck.last
>>>
>>> If that works, instead of trying this via the ln command, you could try
>>> it in a python process. Again as user mailman in mailman's home 
>>> directory do
>>>
>>> bin/withlist -i
>>>
>>> This will respond with a few lines followed by a>>>  prompt. At the
>>> prompts enter
>>>
>>> import os
>>> os.unlink('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')
>>>
>>> (ignore any non-existant file exception)
>>>
>>> os.link('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck',
>>> 'lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')
>>>
>>> You can enter that all on one line, or you can enter
>>>
>>> os.link('lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck',
>>>
>>> which will result in a ... prompt to which you enter
>>>
>>> 'lists/services-officialunix.com/config.pck.last')
>>>
>>> If that works, the question is why can you do it as mailman, but the
>>> qrunners can't? Did you start Mailman by running bin/mailmanctl 
>>> start as
>>> root? If not, stop Mailman and then start is as root.
>>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> First that option gave me an error as the file config.pck was owned 
>> by www I changed it to root:mailman still gave me a perm error so I 
>> changed it to mailmail:mailman and it worked.
>>
>> Did the bin/withlist -i and it did the os.unlink and os.link commands 
>> without issue.
>>
>> After changing the perms I see that it now works without issue. Guess 
>> my webpanel is the culprit. I will see if I can try and inform the 
>> developers of this so I don't have to be changing the perms to make 
>> mailman work.
>>
>> Thank you Mark for pointing these thing out to me :)
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
> Hello,
>
> Now when I try to go to the admin section of the webui for the mailing 
> I get the bug page. Which is easily fixed by changing the owner from 
> mailman to www.
>
> I tried adding mailman to group www but that doesn't seem to work.
>
> Chris
>
I recompiled mailman with the cgi_gid changed to mailman and the apache 
config to be changed as AssignUserID mailman mailman and now I don't get 
the bug page and all is well.  I will continue to monitor the mailman 
services too see if any more perm issues arise before I create 
production mailing lists.

I am not sure if this is the proper way to run mailman but it seems to 
work, since the web panel is always open to issues and bug reports which 
is awesome it is not that hard to explain to them the issue and have 
them fix it.  Seems rather obvious mailman creates files as user mailman 
but editing the files in a web browser creates the files as the running 
user of the web server IE: www if I am not mistaken using the itk patch 
will allow the web server to create/edit files as the user set in the 
AssignUSerID directive in apache.

Thank you for the help


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 16 00:43:15 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:43:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <4EC2F5BF.7020703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111151543150812bfa128fb@MSAPIRO>

Chris Petrik wrote:
>
>Now when I try to go to the admin section of the webui for the mailing I 
>get the bug page. Which is easily fixed by changing the owner from 
>mailman to www.
>
>I tried adding mailman to group www but that doesn't seem to work.


It should work. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/tYA9> for more
on this, but basically, Mailman's directories are group mailman and
SETGID so that subordinate files are created with group mailman.
Mailman's Cgi wrappers and mail wrapper are group mailman and SETGID
so they run with effective group mailman. Mailman's qrunners run as
user:group mailman:mailman.

The whole thing is based on anything that is running in group mailman
has write permission on all the mutable directories and their contents.

If your OS does not allow user:group www:mailman to do certain
operations on files owned by mailman:mailman even though the mailman
group has write permission and likewise for group mailman:mailman on
files owned by www:mailman, you will not be able to avoid these issues.

Mailman is known to work on FreeBSD, so there must be something you can
do to enable this.

In a followup Chris added:

>I recompiled mailman with the cgi_gid changed to mailman and the apache 
>config to be changed as AssignUserID mailman mailman and now I don't get 
>the bug page and all is well.


This is not a good idea. It means the web server now runs as
mailman:mailman and can access anything in Mailman's tree without
necessarily going through the authentication in the CGIs. There may
not be any URLs that can do this, but consider
http://www.example.com/pipermail/../../lists for example.


>I will continue to monitor the mailman 
>services too see if any more perm issues arise before I create 
>production mailing lists.
>
>I am not sure if this is the proper way to run mailman but it seems to 
>work, since the web panel is always open to issues and bug reports which 
>is awesome it is not that hard to explain to them the issue and have 
>them fix it.  Seems rather obvious mailman creates files as user mailman 
>but editing the files in a web browser creates the files as the running 
>user of the web server IE: www if I am not mistaken using the itk patch 
>will allow the web server to create/edit files as the user set in the 
>AssignUSerID directive in apache.


I don't know how your web server works, but the owner = www or mailman
shouldn't matter as everything should be based on group. Possibly, the
issue is the web server is not honoring the SETGID bit on the CGI
wrappers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From rpschwar at knology.net  Wed Nov 16 01:12:54 2011
From: rpschwar at knology.net (Robert P. Schwartz)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:12:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] error logging into moderator page
Message-ID: <E5B541CE2FC24AD9B035683C99E077C9@SchwartzDT>


When trying to log into Moderator Authentication page to
<http://m-c-b.org/mailman/admindb/mcbofficers_m-c-b.org> Tend to pending
moderator requests.  I get the following error:  Has been working fine until
today.


Bug in Mailman version 2.1.14


We're sorry, we hit a bug!


Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of
traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, but
the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.

 

 

Robert P. Schwartz


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 16 01:31:47 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:31:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] error logging into moderator page
In-Reply-To: <E5B541CE2FC24AD9B035683C99E077C9@SchwartzDT>
Message-ID: <PC19520111115163147054678be7f51@MSAPIRO>

Robert P. Schwartz wrote:
>
>When trying to log into Moderator Authentication page to
><http://m-c-b.org/mailman/admindb/mcbofficers_m-c-b.org> Tend to pending
>moderator requests.  I get the following error:  Has been working fine until
>today.
>
>
>Bug in Mailman version 2.1.14
[...]


If you have access to the server, what's in Mailman's error log? If
not, contact your hosting service for this information. It's up to
them to diagnose and resolve this issue.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 03:02:22 2011
From: c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com (Chris Petrik)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:02:22 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <PC195201111151543150812bfa128fb@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC195201111151543150812bfa128fb@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4EC319AE.50701@gmail.com>

On 11/15/2011 5:43 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Chris Petrik wrote:
>> Now when I try to go to the admin section of the webui for the mailing I
>> get the bug page. Which is easily fixed by changing the owner from
>> mailman to www.
>>
>> I tried adding mailman to group www but that doesn't seem to work.
>
> It should work. See the FAQ at<http://wiki.list.org/x/tYA9>  for more
> on this, but basically, Mailman's directories are group mailman and
> SETGID so that subordinate files are created with group mailman.
> Mailman's Cgi wrappers and mail wrapper are group mailman and SETGID
> so they run with effective group mailman. Mailman's qrunners run as
> user:group mailman:mailman.
>
> The whole thing is based on anything that is running in group mailman
> has write permission on all the mutable directories and their contents.
>
> If your OS does not allow user:group www:mailman to do certain
> operations on files owned by mailman:mailman even though the mailman
> group has write permission and likewise for group mailman:mailman on
> files owned by www:mailman, you will not be able to avoid these issues.
>
> Mailman is known to work on FreeBSD, so there must be something you can
> do to enable this.
>
> In a followup Chris added:
>
>> I recompiled mailman with the cgi_gid changed to mailman and the apache
>> config to be changed as AssignUserID mailman mailman and now I don't get
>> the bug page and all is well.
>
> This is not a good idea. It means the web server now runs as
> mailman:mailman and can access anything in Mailman's tree without
> necessarily going through the authentication in the CGIs. There may
> not be any URLs that can do this, but consider
> http://www.example.com/pipermail/../../lists for example.
>
>
>> I will continue to monitor the mailman
>> services too see if any more perm issues arise before I create
>> production mailing lists.
>>
>> I am not sure if this is the proper way to run mailman but it seems to
>> work, since the web panel is always open to issues and bug reports which
>> is awesome it is not that hard to explain to them the issue and have
>> them fix it.  Seems rather obvious mailman creates files as user mailman
>> but editing the files in a web browser creates the files as the running
>> user of the web server IE: www if I am not mistaken using the itk patch
>> will allow the web server to create/edit files as the user set in the
>> AssignUSerID directive in apache.
>
> I don't know how your web server works, but the owner = www or mailman
> shouldn't matter as everything should be based on group. Possibly, the
> issue is the web server is not honoring the SETGID bit on the CGI
> wrappers.
>
If I change the owner to www for config.pck the webui works but then I 
get the perm os.link errors. if I change the perms for config.pck to 
mailman i no longer get the on.link errors but I get the bug page.

I no recompiled mailman to the defaults and trying to figure out what is 
causing this as:


    Bug in Mailman version 2.1.14


      We're sorry, we hit a bug!

Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of 
traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, 
but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.

is not very informative.

looking at the log all I see is the typical:
admin(62887):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, 
in __s$
admin(62887):     os.link(fname, fname_last)
admin(62887): OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted

and nothing in the apache logs to tell me anything valuable besides what 
logs/error says any possible way to make it spit some debug info out for 
means of testing then turn it off?

Chris




From c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 03:34:18 2011
From: c.petrik.sosa at gmail.com (Chris Petrik)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:34:18 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <PC195201111151543150812bfa128fb@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC195201111151543150812bfa128fb@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4EC3212A.1090008@gmail.com>

On 11/15/2011 5:43 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Chris Petrik wrote:
>> Now when I try to go to the admin section of the webui for the mailing I
>> get the bug page. Which is easily fixed by changing the owner from
>> mailman to www.
>>
>> I tried adding mailman to group www but that doesn't seem to work.
>
> It should work. See the FAQ at<http://wiki.list.org/x/tYA9>  for more
> on this, but basically, Mailman's directories are group mailman and
> SETGID so that subordinate files are created with group mailman.
> Mailman's Cgi wrappers and mail wrapper are group mailman and SETGID
> so they run with effective group mailman. Mailman's qrunners run as
> user:group mailman:mailman.
>
> The whole thing is based on anything that is running in group mailman
> has write permission on all the mutable directories and their contents.
>
> If your OS does not allow user:group www:mailman to do certain
> operations on files owned by mailman:mailman even though the mailman
> group has write permission and likewise for group mailman:mailman on
> files owned by www:mailman, you will not be able to avoid these issues.
>
> Mailman is known to work on FreeBSD, so there must be something you can
> do to enable this.
>
> In a followup Chris added:
>
>> I recompiled mailman with the cgi_gid changed to mailman and the apache
>> config to be changed as AssignUserID mailman mailman and now I don't get
>> the bug page and all is well.
>
> This is not a good idea. It means the web server now runs as
> mailman:mailman and can access anything in Mailman's tree without
> necessarily going through the authentication in the CGIs. There may
> not be any URLs that can do this, but consider
> http://www.example.com/pipermail/../../lists for example.
>
>
>> I will continue to monitor the mailman
>> services too see if any more perm issues arise before I create
>> production mailing lists.
>>
>> I am not sure if this is the proper way to run mailman but it seems to
>> work, since the web panel is always open to issues and bug reports which
>> is awesome it is not that hard to explain to them the issue and have
>> them fix it.  Seems rather obvious mailman creates files as user mailman
>> but editing the files in a web browser creates the files as the running
>> user of the web server IE: www if I am not mistaken using the itk patch
>> will allow the web server to create/edit files as the user set in the
>> AssignUSerID directive in apache.
>
> I don't know how your web server works, but the owner = www or mailman
> shouldn't matter as everything should be based on group. Possibly, the
> issue is the web server is not honoring the SETGID bit on the CGI
> wrappers.
>
So I went downstairs to fetch me some coke and it just hit me
AssignUser ID mailman www

And now the webui works

Chris

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 16 03:46:47 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:46:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issues with mailman
In-Reply-To: <4EC319AE.50701@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111151846470281cb926248@MSAPIRO>

Chris Petrik wrote:
>
>looking at the log all I see is the typical:
>admin(62887):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 549, 
>in __s$
>admin(62887):     os.link(fname, fname_last)
>admin(62887): OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted


Right. It is the same error. In this case above it is the web admin CGI
that encounters the error.

It appears the underlying issue is that your OS will not allow anyone
other than the owner of a file to create a hard link to it.

I.e. if config.pck is owned by www:mailman, the qrunners running as
mailman:mailman can't create the link and if config.pck is owned by
mailman:mailman the web server running as www:mailman can't create the
link.

This prevents an updated list object from being saved by any process
not running as the user who owns config.pck even though that process
is running as group mailman and the mailman group *should* have
permission.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From clare at catspaw.plus.com  Wed Nov 16 17:17:39 2011
From: clare at catspaw.plus.com (Clare Redstone)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:17:39 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change moderated message to plain text
Message-ID: <01f501cca47b$4356dac0$ca049040$@catspaw.plus.com>

I'm having problems with messages bouncing because they are too large. I'm
pretty sure it's because they're formatted. If I just copy them and change
to plain text, they get through fine. But the "from" field says they're from
me.

 

I'd rather sort it out by going to the moderation queue in the administrator
web interface and accepting them. Is there a way I can convert them to plain
text at the same time, to keep them short? If I let them through as they
are, then any replies are also too big and are held for moderation and on
and on.

 

Thanks.

Clare


From pennguin at mac.com  Wed Nov 16 16:41:28 2011
From: pennguin at mac.com (Rob McLear)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:41:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] add_members question
Message-ID: <526EA4CB-487A-49B8-ADBC-00982166F986@mac.com>

I would like to be able to add individual members to lists from the command line, but I can't figure out the syntax exactly. I don't want to designate a file of list names; this is just to add single members without using the web interface.

If I type "./add_members -wn -r - listname" the shell pauses as if waiting for my input, but nothing I type has any effect.

Thanks,

-Rob McLear


From geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Wed Nov 16 17:45:53 2011
From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:45:53 +0200 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] add_members question
In-Reply-To: <526EA4CB-487A-49B8-ADBC-00982166F986@mac.com>
References: <526EA4CB-487A-49B8-ADBC-00982166F986@mac.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111161844350.2773@data.home>

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Rob McLear wrote:

> If I type "./add_members -wn -r - listname" the shell pauses as if 
> waiting for my input, but nothing I type has any effect.

Try pressing control-d after you've finished typing, this is the unix 
end-of-file character.

Geoff.


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 16 17:47:21 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 08:47:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change moderated message to plain text
In-Reply-To: <01f501cca47b$4356dac0$ca049040$@catspaw.plus.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111160847210046a9f8fe43@MSAPIRO>

Clare Redstone wrote:

>I'm having problems with messages bouncing because they are too large. I'm
>pretty sure it's because they're formatted. If I just copy them and change
>to plain text, they get through fine. But the "from" field says they're from
>me.


There are a couple of ways to handle this.

See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/24A9> for one approach.

A better way is to use the list's content filtering to remove any
text/html parts and collapse multipart/alternative to the first part
only.

This will make the message ultimately sent to the list smaller, but
won't stop it being held. If you have access to the Mailman
installation, you can avoid the hold by moving the MimeDel module
ahead of the Hold module in the processing pipeline by adding the
following to mm_cfg.py

#
# Put MimeDel ahead of Hold so "too big" is based on content filtered
# message.
#
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('MimeDel')
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Hold'), 'MimeDel')

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From pennguin at mac.com  Wed Nov 16 18:08:56 2011
From: pennguin at mac.com (Rob McLear)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:08:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] add_members question
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111161844350.2773@data.home>
References: <526EA4CB-487A-49B8-ADBC-00982166F986@mac.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111161844350.2773@data.home>
Message-ID: <80D7121C-246E-457F-B18D-18FE24B2E3EE@mac.com>

That works! Thanks!

-Rob


On Nov 16, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Geoff Shang wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Rob McLear wrote:
> 
>> If I type "./add_members -wn -r - listname" the shell pauses as if waiting for my input, but nothing I type has any effect.
> 
> Try pressing control-d after you've finished typing, this is the unix end-of-file character.
> 
> Geoff.
> 


From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Wed Nov 16 21:01:48 2011
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:01:48 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Pegasus Mail does not show message except as an
	attachment
Message-ID: <20111116220148.52d8a95f@pandora>

Hi,

This occurs on one list that I administer. In fuller detail we have two
issues.

Members want to send .doc file attachments, (and html emails too) and
of course have them arrive. If I have content filtering on & which
allows .doc file attachments then members using Pegasus Mail complain
that the message does not show up on page 1 as it were and has to be
found among the tree of attachments. Under different content filtering
Pegasus Mail users can be satisfied to see the message on page 1 as
it were, but the .doc attachments are no longer there for any one to
see.

I can see the messages plain and clear in Claws email and the .doc
files are of course shown as attachments. I conclude that Pegasus is
somehow at fault in its display of the message as an attachment instead
of as the body of the message (my terminology may be lacking here).

I have searched but can find no answer, do other users find display
issues of mailman content filtered posts with Pegasus Mail?

If I have content filtering off, Pegasus Mail users suffer the same
display issue.

The list has run for years with no complaints. Recently the issue of
sending .doc files has just been raised and it is the provision of pass
rules that seem to put Pegasus users in a whirl.

Anne

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 17 00:15:04 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:15:04 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Pegasus Mail does not show message except as
	anattachment
In-Reply-To: <20111116220148.52d8a95f@pandora>
Message-ID: <PC195201111161515040703ef72ba83@MSAPIRO>

Anne Wainwright wrote:
>
>This occurs on one list that I administer. In fuller detail we have two
>issues.
>
>Members want to send .doc file attachments, (and html emails too) and
>of course have them arrive. If I have content filtering on & which
>allows .doc file attachments then members using Pegasus Mail complain
>that the message does not show up on page 1 as it were and has to be
>found among the tree of attachments. Under different content filtering
>Pegasus Mail users can be satisfied to see the message on page 1 as
>it were, but the .doc attachments are no longer there for any one to
>see.


Is there a msg_header defined for the list. If so, it will be added as
the first text/plain message part which some MUAs will call the body.
It may look empty but contain white space. If you want the message
header, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/84A9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net  Thu Nov 17 01:07:59 2011
From: dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net (Dennis Carr)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:07:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Pegasus Mail does not show message except as an
 attachment
In-Reply-To: <20111116220148.52d8a95f@pandora>
References: <20111116220148.52d8a95f@pandora>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1111161605570.29246@kimba.chez-vrolet.net>

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Anne Wainwright wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This occurs on one list that I administer. In fuller detail we have two
> issues.
>
> Members want to send .doc file attachments, (and html emails too) and
> of course have them arrive. If I have content filtering on & which
> allows .doc file attachments then members using Pegasus Mail complain
> that the message does not show up on page 1 as it were and has to be
> found among the tree of attachments. Under different content filtering
> Pegasus Mail users can be satisfied to see the message on page 1 as
> it were, but the .doc attachments are no longer there for any one to
> see.

Just one question, does the message consist entirely of the aforementioned 
content?

Also, note that I've seen Sylpheed basically choke on a message if the 
message was HTML only with no straight text as well - normally this 
happens in attachment view.  I haven't used Pmail in years, so I don't 
remember if the layout is anything similar.

-Dennis


From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Thu Nov 17 17:07:48 2011
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:07:48 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Pegasus Mail does not show message except as
 anattachment
In-Reply-To: <PC195201111161515040703ef72ba83@MSAPIRO>
References: <20111116220148.52d8a95f@pandora>
	<PC195201111161515040703ef72ba83@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <20111117180748.5b631ddf@pandora>

Hello, Mark,


On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:15:04 -0800
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Anne Wainwright wrote:
> >
> >This occurs on one list that I administer. In fuller detail we have two
> >issues.
> >
> >Members want to send .doc file attachments, (and html emails too) and
> >of course have them arrive. If I have content filtering on & which
> >allows .doc file attachments then members using Pegasus Mail complain
> >that the message does not show up on page 1 as it were and has to be
> >found among the tree of attachments. Under different content filtering
> >Pegasus Mail users can be satisfied to see the message on page 1 as
> >it were, but the .doc attachments are no longer there for any one to
> >see.
> 
> 
> Is there a msg_header defined for the list. If so, it will be added as
> the first text/plain message part which some MUAs will call the body.
> It may look empty but contain white space. If you want the message
> header, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/84A9>.
Yes, there was, and I removed both headers and footers since the
membership on this list is static and the info given is really
cosmetic only. Based upon limited postings today this has had beneficial
results for those that I spoke to.

I read the faq which is clear but which I would not have picked up on
from the title as a guide to any solution.

regards
Anne

> 

From anotheranne at fables.co.za  Thu Nov 17 17:26:47 2011
From: anotheranne at fables.co.za (Anne Wainwright)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:26:47 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Pegasus Mail does not show message except as an
 attachment
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1111161605570.29246@kimba.chez-vrolet.net>
References: <20111116220148.52d8a95f@pandora>
	<alpine.DEB.1.10.1111161605570.29246@kimba.chez-vrolet.net>
Message-ID: <20111117182647.639454dc@pandora>

Hello, Dennis,

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:07:59 -0800 (PST)
Dennis Carr <dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Anne Wainwright wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > This occurs on one list that I administer. In fuller detail we have two
> > issues.
> >
> > Members want to send .doc file attachments, (and html emails too) and
> > of course have them arrive. If I have content filtering on & which
> > allows .doc file attachments then members using Pegasus Mail complain
> > that the message does not show up on page 1 as it were and has to be
> > found among the tree of attachments. Under different content filtering
> > Pegasus Mail users can be satisfied to see the message on page 1 as
> > it were, but the .doc attachments are no longer there for any one to
> > see.
> >
> Just one question, does the message consist entirely of the aforementioned content?
The message is separate from the .doc file and is explanatory in nature
relating to, say, a complex legal .doc file with annotations.

As you will see from my reply to Mark I am hopeful that removing header
and footer text has resolved the issue. The header was shown as the
message and the message as an attachment. So fingers crossed.

> 
> Also, note that I've seen Sylpheed basically choke on a message if the message was HTML only with no straight text as well - normally this happens in attachment view.  I haven't used Pmail in years, so I don't remember if the layout is anything similar.
I also have Claws lockups but never found out why. Most unladylike as
even the Force Quit button is rendered nonop. PMail is way ahead of
Sylpheed or its more popular cousin Claws in terms of features. With a
floating window structure I would not say it resembled either. It is my
own favourite on Win for handling heavy mail loads, but then I am only
just looking at mutt and never have seen alpine! More like Mark's
Popcorn from a look at his screenshot.

thanks
Anne
> 
> -Dennis
> 

From chad+mailman at shire.net  Thu Nov 17 18:11:10 2011
From: chad+mailman at shire.net (chad+mailman at shire.net)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:11:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail not going out; no logs
Message-ID: <7FE2850F-6B14-4606-9197-1F16CDFA6AD8@shire.net>

Hi

I had a successful mailman installation running on one server.  Due to some HW issues on that server that we have not been able to address, the mailman installation was moved to a different, similar server.   The qrunners all run, and the cgi stuff works for UI of the lists, but no messages are sent out.   The MTA is exim.

When a mail comes in for a list, exim successfully delivers the mail to mailman.   The message DOES appear in  qfiles/in  for a second or two before mailman grabs it.  It then next shows up in data/heldmsg-LISTNAME-nnn.pck and is not sent out.   This happens regardless of "emergency moderation" being sent, and if you go to the admin UI for the list, there are NO pending moderation requests showing.

logs/   shows nothing except when the qrunners start and stop (successfully).

I have exhausted my knowledge on debugging this and would appreciate some help in figuring out what is going on.  (I did upgrade mailman to see if that helped but the problem remains, so no permissions got fixed that way)

check_perms only flags a few cgi related things which need to be different due to group of the web server and the way suexec works.  (no g+s, different group name, non writable by group directory)

check_db flags nothing

bin/dumpdb lists/LISTNAME/request.pck 
[----- start pickle file -----]
<----- start object 1 ----->
{'version': (0, 1)}
[----- end pickle file -----]



Thanks
Chad


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 18 08:30:46 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:30:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail not going out; no logs
In-Reply-To: <7FE2850F-6B14-4606-9197-1F16CDFA6AD8@shire.net>
Message-ID: <PC195201111172330460859be69b449@MSAPIRO>

chad+mailman at shire.net wrote:
>
>I had a successful mailman installation running on one server.  Due to some HW issues on that server that we have not been able to address, the mailman installation was moved to a different, similar server.   The qrunners all run, and the cgi stuff works for UI of the lists, but no messages are sent out.   The MTA is exim.
>
>When a mail comes in for a list, exim successfully delivers the mail to mailman.   The message DOES appear in  qfiles/in  for a second or two before mailman grabs it.  It then next shows up in data/heldmsg-LISTNAME-nnn.pck and is not sent out.   This happens regardless of "emergency moderation" being sent, and if you go to the admin UI for the list, there are NO pending moderation requests showing.


The message is being held for some reason. Mailman's vette log will
tell you why, and it should appear on the list's admindb interface.


>logs/   shows nothing except when the qrunners start and stop (successfully).


If you don't see anything in Mailman's vette log, there is either a
permissions issue in writing the logs or you are not looking at the
correct logs.

If you don't see the held message in the admindb interface, the web
server is pointing at the wrong Mailman installation.


>I have exhausted my knowledge on debugging this and would appreciate some help in figuring out what is going on.  (I did upgrade mailman to see if that helped but the problem remains, so no permissions got fixed that way)
>
>check_perms only flags a few cgi related things which need to be different due to group of the web server and the way suexec works.  (no g+s, different group name, non writable by group directory)
>
>check_db flags nothing


check_db is a very minimal test. It only checks that config.pck* can be
successfully unpickled.


>bin/dumpdb lists/LISTNAME/request.pck 
>[----- start pickle file -----]
><----- start object 1 ----->
>{'version': (0, 1)}
>[----- end pickle file -----]


Are you certain you are looking at the correct Mailman installation?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From parturi at bairesweb.com  Fri Nov 18 16:58:40 2011
From: parturi at bairesweb.com (Pablo Arturi)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 12:58:40 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman subject confirm message
Message-ID: <D6D65508DF7D464FAEA98E0038DD712D@pla>

Hello, is there any way to change the subject of the confirm message when a 
user subscribes to the list?

I just could found the verify.txt file which allows you to change the body 
of the messages, but I would like to change the subject either.

Thank you,
Pablo



From chad+mailman at shire.net  Fri Nov 18 18:37:00 2011
From: chad+mailman at shire.net (chad+mailman at shire.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:37:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail not going out; no logs
In-Reply-To: <PC195201111172330460859be69b449@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC195201111172330460859be69b449@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <D12D1EA5-A6EB-4B42-8242-CAD8321BBB8B@shire.net>


Turns out this is an embarrassing case of user being an idiot.  I was looking in the wrong list admin UI.  There are two lists with similar names and for some reason I was logged in to the wrong one.  (Probably because I had just that day been fixing a problem with the list UI for that wrong list and made a mental screw up based on association and the fact that I still had a browser window opened to it).

I got that figured out when the real admin of the list logged in and approved one and cancelled the rest and the approved one came across the wire, which surprised me since I had not had the luck.

(continued below)

On Nov 18, 2011, at 12:30 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> 
> 
> The message is being held for some reason. Mailman's vette log will
> tell you why, and it should appear on the list's admindb interface.

This is what was confusing me since I was logged in to the wrong list's admin UI.

However, there was no vette log.  That appears to get created by the action of the admin going through and canceling or approving already held messages, but does not show the original hold condition/reason.

There is a vette log after the real admin went in and cleared out all my test posts and approved her real one.

> 
> 
>> logs/   shows nothing except when the qrunners start and stop (successfully).
> 
> 
> If you don't see anything in Mailman's vette log, there is either a
> permissions issue in writing the logs or you are not looking at the
> correct logs.

Now that I see what the issue was, things are OK.  But the lack of logs had concerned me and I was not sure how to debug why they were not getting written as the permissions all looked fine.  Hence my original confusion.


> 
> If you don't see the held message in the admindb interface, the web
> server is pointing at the wrong Mailman installation.

Or I am in the wrong list admindb interface ;-)


Thanks for your help!
Chad



From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 18 18:46:13 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:46:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman subject confirm message
In-Reply-To: <D6D65508DF7D464FAEA98E0038DD712D@pla>
Message-ID: <PC1952011111809461305932dad681e@MSAPIRO>

Pablo Arturi wrote:

>Hello, is there any way to change the subject of the confirm message when a 
>user subscribes to the list?
>
>I just could found the verify.txt file which allows you to change the body 
>of the messages, but I would like to change the subject either.


You can set VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes in mm_cfg.py. This will change

From: LISTNAME-request at example.com
Subject: confirm xxxxxxxxxxxx

to

From: LISTNAME-confirm+xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Your confirmation is required to join the LISTNAME mailing list

In order for replies to this message to work, your incoming MTA has to
recognize '+' as a delimiter between a local part and a suffix (in
Postfix, recipient_delimiter = +)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Alex.Collins at anglia.ac.uk  Fri Nov 18 14:20:36 2011
From: Alex.Collins at anglia.ac.uk (Collins, Alex)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:20:36 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman sending to Exchange 2010 Mail service.
Message-ID: <DC843AAD938E5047B60BD84CEE667B0407AD8490@CHE-I-MBX01.anglia.local>

Hi Everyone. 

We run  Mailman as a department. Our core mail service is Exchange 2010.
Exchange is running in Shadow Redundancy mode which means it uses a Message DE duplication system.
I'm lead to believe that this is based on the Message-ID. (Please correct me if I'm wrong !)

In short, if a user posts to more than 1 list, Exchange dedupes the message on the way back. 
This means users only get 1 list message. It's causing Chaos !

So: 

RFC's and the non PC tampering of message headers aside:
How can I use Mailman (or even sendmail) to remove the Message-ID so that Mailman will set its own Message-ID and we can actually send messages to more than one list.

I'm 100% aware that this is not a Mailman issue. If I'm too far OT, I send my apologies.

TIA

--
Alex Collins.                   Library Systems and Support Officer.
Rivermead Library.              Tel: 0845 XXX XXXX
alex.collins (at) anglia.ac.uk     http://libweb.anglia.ac.uk
This product is printed with 100% recycled electrons !


-- 

EMERGING EXCELLENCE: In the Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) 2008, 
more than 30% of our submissions were rated as 'Internationally 
Excellent' or 'World-leading'. Among the academic disciplines now rated 
'World-leading' are Allied Health Professions & Studies; Art & Design; 
English Language & Literature; Geography & Environmental Studies; 
History; Music; Psychology; and Social Work & Social Policy & 
Administration. Visit www.anglia.ac.uk/rae for more information. 




This e-mail and any attachments are intended for the above named 
recipient(s)only and may be privileged. If they have come to you in 
error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show 
them to anyone please reply to this e-mail to highlight the error and 
then immediately delete the e-mail from your system. Any opinions 
expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily 
represent the views or opinions of Anglia Ruskin University. Although 
measures have been taken to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are 
free from any virus we advise that, in keeping with good computing 
practice, the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free. 
Please note that this message has been sent over public networks which 
may not be a 100% secure communications 

Email has been scanned for viruses by Altman Technologies' email 
management service - www.altman.co.uk/emailsystems 


From jfayre at gmail.com  Fri Nov 18 16:38:42 2011
From: jfayre at gmail.com (Jason Fayre)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:38:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using mailing list folder in archive template
Message-ID: <4EC67C02.2090708@gmail.com>

Hello,
I am relatively new to Mailman.  I am administering a server with around 
200 lists on it.  I am setting up Swish-e to provide searchable list 
archives.  Each list has it's own search.  In the search form, I need to 
be able to reference a cgi script.
Each list has its own cgi script in the mailman cgi-bin folder.  The 
names of the cgi scripts are the same as the folder containing the 
mailing list in mailman.
I thought I could just use %(listname)s in my templates to reference 
this.  Unfortunately, this is returning the friendly list name, not the 
name of the folder where the list resides.  I can change my cgi script 
names if I need to, but I was wondering if there is a template tag I can 
use to insert the name of the list as it appears in the mailman lists 
directory.
Also, is there a list of the mailman tags that can be used in these 
templates?
Thanks!


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 18 23:10:08 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 14:10:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using mailing list folder in archive template
In-Reply-To: <4EC67C02.2090708@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201111181410080187a04c4983@MSAPIRO>

Jason Fayre wrote:

>I am relatively new to Mailman.  I am administering a server with around 
>200 lists on it.  I am setting up Swish-e to provide searchable list 
>archives.  Each list has it's own search.  In the search form, I need to 
>be able to reference a cgi script.
>Each list has its own cgi script in the mailman cgi-bin folder.  The 
>names of the cgi scripts are the same as the folder containing the 
>mailing list in mailman.
>I thought I could just use %(listname)s in my templates to reference 
>this.  Unfortunately, this is returning the friendly list name, not the 
>name of the folder where the list resides.  I can change my cgi script 
>names if I need to, but I was wondering if there is a template tag I can 
>use to insert the name of the list as it appears in the mailman lists 
>directory.
>Also, is there a list of the mailman tags that can be used in these 
>templates?


In general the code that uses any particular template has its own
dictionary of substitution variables and with very few exceptions the
only names in the dictionary are those that appear in that particular
template.

Assuming you are modifying the archtoc.html and/or archtocnombox.html
templates, you could edit Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py as follows:

Find the section

    def html_TOC(self):
        mlist = self.maillist
        listname = mlist.internal_name()
        mbox = os.path.join(mlist.archive_dir()+'.mbox',
listname+'.mbox')
        d = {"listname": mlist.real_name,
             "listinfo": mlist.GetScriptURL('listinfo', absolute=1),
             "fullarch": '../%s.mbox/%s.mbox' % (listname, listname),
             "size": sizeof(mbox, mlist.preferred_language),
             'meta': '',
             }

add the line

             "internalname": mlist.internal_name(),

to make it

    def html_TOC(self):
        mlist = self.maillist
        listname = mlist.internal_name()
        mbox = os.path.join(mlist.archive_dir()+'.mbox',
listname+'.mbox')
        d = {"listname": mlist.real_name,
             "internalname": mlist.internal_name(),
             "listinfo": mlist.GetScriptURL('listinfo', absolute=1),
             "fullarch": '../%s.mbox/%s.mbox' % (listname, listname),
             "size": sizeof(mbox, mlist.preferred_language),
             'meta': '',
             }

and restart Mailman. Then you could use %(internalname)s in the
template to be replaced with the list's internal (all lower case) name.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 18 23:31:01 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 14:31:01 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman sending to Exchange 2010 Mail service.
In-Reply-To: <DC843AAD938E5047B60BD84CEE667B0407AD8490@CHE-I-MBX01.anglia.local>
Message-ID: <PC195201111181431010953a04c4c7a@MSAPIRO>

Collins, Alex wrote:
>
>RFC's and the non PC tampering of message headers aside:
>How can I use Mailman (or even sendmail) to remove the Message-ID so that Mailman will set its own Message-ID and we can actually send messages to more than one list.


You could just delete the Message-ID: from outgoing posts. Then the
outgoing MTA (sendmail ?) should add a unique Message-ID: when it
handles the message.

To do this, you could modify Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py by finding
the section of bulkdeliver that says

    msgtext = msg.as_string(mangle_from_=False)
    refused = {}
    recips = msgdata['recips']
    msgid = msg['message-id']
    try:
        # Send the message
        refused = conn.sendmail(envsender, recips, msgtext)

and change it to

    msgtext = msg.as_string(mangle_from_=False)
    refused = {}
    recips = msgdata['recips']
    del msg['message-id']
    msgid = 'n/a'
    try:
        # Send the message
        refused = conn.sendmail(envsender, recips, msgtext)

or if you want Mailman to actually generate a Message-ID:, change it to

    msgtext = msg.as_string(mangle_from_=False)
    refused = {}
    recips = msgdata['recips']
    del msg['message-id']
    msg['Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)
    msgid = msg['message-id']
    try:
        # Send the message
        refused = conn.sendmail(envsender, recips, msgtext)




-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Sat Nov 19 00:27:57 2011
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 23:27:57 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman sending to Exchange 2010 Mail service.
In-Reply-To: <DC843AAD938E5047B60BD84CEE667B0407AD8490@CHE-I-MBX01.anglia.local>
References: <DC843AAD938E5047B60BD84CEE667B0407AD8490@CHE-I-MBX01.anglia.local>
Message-ID: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F957D7E7C@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>

Collins, Alex wrote:

>Hi Everyone. 

>We run  Mailman as a department. Our core mail service is Exchange 2010.
>Exchange is running in Shadow Redundancy mode which means it uses a Message DE duplication system.
>I'm lead to believe that this is based on the Message-ID. (Please correct me if I'm wrong !)

I am sure other people will give you pointers to do this, but you don't happen to have more info about the Exchange side doing this do you?  I am surprised that it will actually filter messages going to people's mailboxes, even if they have the same Message-ID.  I haven't seen this on the Exchange boxes I run, and we use Mailman in a similar way - Exchange distribution lists are no good if you want multiple internal and external recipients to be added and removed from the list.

Andrew. 

From leguennec.pierrik at orange.fr  Sun Nov 20 16:34:28 2011
From: leguennec.pierrik at orange.fr (Pierrik Le Guennec - Domicile)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:34:28 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] http / https interfaces
Message-ID: <4EC91E04.6020206@orange.fr>

Hello,

I have installer last maiman on debian lenny, by apt-get.

There are 404 errors for interfaces on a domain.
http://<domain>/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/<list>
http://<domain>/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/<domain>

There are mail warnings :
Nov 18 13:38:02 <server> postfix/postmap[5085]: warning: 
/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman.db: duplicate entry: "<list>@<domain>"
(and other aliases)

/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases seems ok.
But /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman has a problem :
there are several lists of <domain> which are not deleted.

I tried to delete and recreate the list, same problem. And same problem 
with all lists on that domain.

After reinstalling mailman, I have almost the same problem.

Now, there are no errors with virtual-mailman.db. But if I delete a list 
of this domain, it stays in virtual-mailman. For others domains, no problem.

I have found that web admin/users interfaces are https URLs for the 
domain mail of this list, and not http URL.

And the links from admin/users interfaces are https URLs, and coded as 
http URLs.

In mm_cfg.py, there is
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/cgi-bin/mailman/'

And no https directive in <domain>.vhost

Mystery...

Where can I search ?


Thanks !

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 21 02:39:15 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:39:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] http / https interfaces
In-Reply-To: <4EC91E04.6020206@orange.fr>
Message-ID: <PC195201111201739150506e431cac9@MSAPIRO>

Pierrik Le Guennec - Domicile wrote:
>
>I have installer last maiman on debian lenny, by apt-get.


First, please see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD>.


>There are 404 errors for interfaces on a domain.
>http://<domain>/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/<list>
>http://<domain>/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/<domain>


Is the above a typo? Do you mean
http://<domain>/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/<list>? In any case, these
shouldn't be a generic 404. In recent Mailman the "No such list
<domain>" message would be returned with a 404 status, but it would
clearly be a Mailman page.

There is apparently something wrong with either the ScriptAlias (or
equivalent) in your web server config, or maybe your
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN is wrong, or maybe its the http/https issue below.


>There are mail warnings :
>Nov 18 13:38:02 <server> postfix/postmap[5085]: warning: 
>/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman.db: duplicate entry: "<list>@<domain>"
>(and other aliases)
>
>/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases seems ok.
>But /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman has a problem :
>there are several lists of <domain> which are not deleted.
>
>I tried to delete and recreate the list, same problem. And same problem 
>with all lists on that domain.


Try running Mailman's bin/genaliases to completely rebuild aliases and
virtual-mailman. If there are multiple entries for a list, deleting
and recreating the list will remove at most one of them.


>After reinstalling mailman, I have almost the same problem.
>
>Now, there are no errors with virtual-mailman.db. But if I delete a list 
>of this domain, it stays in virtual-mailman. For others domains, no problem.


Possibly its domain (host_name) is no longer in
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS or you changed its host_name via the web
admin interface.


>I have found that web admin/users interfaces are https URLs for the 
>domain mail of this list, and not http URL.
>
>And the links from admin/users interfaces are https URLs, and coded as 
>http URLs.
>
>In mm_cfg.py, there is
>DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/cgi-bin/mailman/'
>
>And no https directive in <domain>.vhost


If you want https URLs, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/7oA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From lists at penpal4u.net  Mon Nov 21 06:59:29 2011
From: lists at penpal4u.net (Christian Lerrahn)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:59:29 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site admin per mail domain
Message-ID: <20111121165929.4a97b4a3@buub>

Hi,
Please forgive me if my question is a display of ignorance. I've only
very recently switched from ezmlm-idx to mailman and am still trying to
get my head around the difference in concept. I've searched the FAQs
and archives but wasn't actually too sure what exactly to use as search
terms.

I have noticed that Mailman identifies lists by there names only but
allows them to run in different mail domains. I realise that I can also
have different domains and host names for the web interfaces. However,
what I cannot find out for sure is if a site admin only exists per
Mailman install or also per mail domain. In other words, can I have an
admin who is allowed to create new lists (something I understand to be
exclusively a site admin task) for a certain mail domain but not on
other mail domains.

If I was running lists

test
test1
test2

and they were reachable on test at lists.example.com,
test1 at lists.example.net, test2 at lists.example.org could I have one
account which can create lists in example.com, another one which can
create lists in example.net and still another one which can create
lists in example.org?

Also, is there a trick to have lists test3 at lists.example.net and
test3 at lists.example.com simultaneously without needing to work with
aliases somehow?

Cheers,
Christian

From geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Mon Nov 21 15:00:12 2011
From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:00:12 +0200 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site admin per mail domain
In-Reply-To: <20111121165929.4a97b4a3@buub>
References: <20111121165929.4a97b4a3@buub>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111211557160.2773@data.home>

On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Christian Lerrahn wrote:

> I have noticed that Mailman identifies lists by there names only but
> allows them to run in different mail domains. I realise that I can also
> have different domains and host names for the web interfaces. However,
> what I cannot find out for sure is if a site admin only exists per
> Mailman install or also per mail domain.

Certainly in the regular release Mailman, site admin is per install.  You 
could achieve what you want by having multiple Mailman installations, one 
per domain.

> Also, is there a trick to have lists test3 at lists.example.net and
> test3 at lists.example.com simultaneously without needing to work with
> aliases somehow?

There is a patch for being able to do this IIRC, but not in stock 
unpached Mailman.  Apparently this will be possible in Mainman 3.

Geoff.


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 22 04:10:12 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:10:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site admin per mail domain
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111211557160.2773@data.home>
Message-ID: <PC195201111211910120687ed00223b@MSAPIRO>

Geoff Shang wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Christian Lerrahn wrote:
>
>> I have noticed that Mailman identifies lists by there names only but
>> allows them to run in different mail domains. I realise that I can also
>> have different domains and host names for the web interfaces. However,
>> what I cannot find out for sure is if a site admin only exists per
>> Mailman install or also per mail domain.
>
>Certainly in the regular release Mailman, site admin is per install.  You 
>could achieve what you want by having multiple Mailman installations, one 
>per domain.


Multiple instances will also allow the same list name in different
domains and is the recommended way to do this with Mailman 2.1.

Also note that you can also set an installation/instance global list
creator password to allow people to create lists without giving them
the keys to the kingdom.


>> Also, is there a trick to have lists test3 at lists.example.net and
>> test3 at lists.example.com simultaneously without needing to work with
>> aliases somehow?
>
>There is a patch for being able to do this IIRC, but not in stock 
>unpached Mailman.  Apparently this will be possible in Mainman 3.


Yes, MM 3 supports lists with the same name in different domains. There
are at least two approaches to patching Mailman 2.1 to do this:
<https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/vhost> and
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558126>, but as I said above,
the recommended way is multiple Mailman instances.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From rhaas at rhaas.us  Mon Nov 21 17:22:40 2011
From: rhaas at rhaas.us (Richard Haas)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:22:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] stuck bounce-events write
Message-ID: <CAEcLpa-q_9aZOyaSk+khG=NGK+wR=Ov2h6H6Kd=gsgBcUsEADg@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings.

Last week, we ran into a rather odd event (first time we've seen it in a
decade or so of Mailman ops), where a bounced message kept writing to its
/var/mailman/data/bounce-events-PID.pck file, until it filled the disk --
it wasn't a series of bounces (same delivery times on every received
header), it was the same bounce written over and over again (about 5000
times), unfortunately, that bounce contained a 7 MB base64 encoded
attachment.

I thought I'd toss the details out here, to see if anyone had a thought on
what caused this, or (other than implementing a disk watching cron job,
which we already have), how to avoid it in the future ... though it
certainly seems like a fluke.

Anyhow, the message was first sent to the list at 16:41:35 (after manual
list owner approval of the moderated posting), and was posted normally at:


/var/mailman/logs/post:Nov 16 16:41:35 2011 (1560) post to [somelist]-news
from [someone]@my.org size=7705563,
message-id=<AB96A557B3C21F4298987419BF86FA1B672214168A@[my domain]v>,
success


The message had a PDF attachment, and was from the list owner. The list had
about 120 members, and most of the members (there were some other
undeliverable addresses) got the message. The list owner got the message.
There appeared to be nothing bogus about the attachment.

The first bounce seemed normal:

Delivery failed for the following reason:
Server entsrmbx01.teledyne.com[74.201.16.49] failed with: 550 #5.1.0
Address rejected <someone>@teledyne.com
This has been a permanent failure.  No further delivery attempts will be
made.


... and then the first bounce was written to the
/var/mailman/data/bounce-events pck file at:

Received from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
       by [myserver] (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3272D601E21
       for <[somelist]-news-bounces at myserver>; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:41:55
-0500 (EST)


... but was written another 5000 times with it's PDF attachment.

... at 17:43 local, the disk filled with:

Nov 16 17:43:13 [hostname] postfix/smtpd[27239]: NOQUEUE: reject: MAIL from
localhost[127.0.0.1]: 452 4.3.1 Insufficient system storage; proto=ESMTP
helo=<localhost>
Nov 16 17:43:13 [hostname] postfix/smtpd[27239]: warning: not enough free
space in mail queue: 36216832 bytes < 1.5*message size limit


Oddly, the bounce-events file's last write was considerably earlier:

-rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 37867700224 2011-11-16 16:52
bounce-events-01556.pck


The only questionable log entries I can find after/around the message
posting is for an abort of the Archrunner and Bouncerunner before the disk
filled:

Nov 16 17:06:08 2011 (1533) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 1555, sig: 9, sts: None, class: ArchRunner, slice: 1/1) [restarting]
Nov 16 17:06:14 2011 (27568) ArchRunner qrunner started.
Nov 16 17:06:18 2011 (1533) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 1556, sig: 9, sts: None, class: BounceRunner, slice: 1/1) [restarting]
Nov 16 17:06:20 2011 (27573) BounceRunner qrunner started.


Since the [somelist]-news list in question doesn't have archiving enabled
(never has), so I the ArchRunner restart. There were no other qrunner
restarts since 6:33 that morning, and the only later ones were when admin
staff went in to clear things up.

So chronologically:

- 16:41 first bounce occurs and is written to bounce-events by PID 1556
- 16:52 PID 1556 makes (according to the file system) its last write to
bounce-events-1556.pck
- 17:02 ArchRunner and BounceRunner get restart signals, PID 27573 is the
new BounceRunner
- 17:43 the disk fills to the point postfix starts complaining


... that doesn't add up unless one presumes PID 1556 hung around and kept
writing bounce-events-1556.pck from 17:02 to 17:43 (and probably beyond).

Does the above add up to anything for anyone else? Is there something else
that should be checked?

Thanks for any insight.

--
 Richard Haas <rhaas at rhaas.us>
 GnuPG public key ID: 1CB7F0E2
--

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 22 08:54:41 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:54:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] stuck bounce-events write
In-Reply-To: <CAEcLpa-q_9aZOyaSk+khG=NGK+wR=Ov2h6H6Kd=gsgBcUsEADg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952011112123544107345c24eb47@MSAPIRO>

Richard Haas wrote:
>
>Last week, we ran into a rather odd event (first time we've seen it in a
>decade or so of Mailman ops), where a bounced message kept writing to its
>/var/mailman/data/bounce-events-PID.pck file, until it filled the disk [...]
>The first bounce seemed normal:
>
>Delivery failed for the following reason:
>Server entsrmbx01.teledyne.com[74.201.16.49] failed with: 550 #5.1.0
>Address rejected <someone>@teledyne.com
>This has been a permanent failure.  No further delivery attempts will be
>made.
>
>
>... and then the first bounce was written to the
>/var/mailman/data/bounce-events pck file at:
>
>Received from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
>       by [myserver] (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3272D601E21
>       for <[somelist]-news-bounces at myserver>; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:41:55
>-0500 (EST)
>
>
>... but was written another 5000 times with it's PDF attachment.
>
>... at 17:43 local, the disk filled with:
>
>Nov 16 17:43:13 [hostname] postfix/smtpd[27239]: NOQUEUE: reject: MAIL from
>localhost[127.0.0.1]: 452 4.3.1 Insufficient system storage; proto=ESMTP
>helo=<localhost>
>Nov 16 17:43:13 [hostname] postfix/smtpd[27239]: warning: not enough free
>space in mail queue: 36216832 bytes < 1.5*message size limit


So is it Postfix that is repeatedly delivering this bounce message to
Mailman, and Mailman is just trying to deal with it? If so, the
underlying issue is with Postfix, not Mailman.


>Oddly, the bounce-events file's last write was considerably earlier:
>
>-rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 37867700224 2011-11-16 16:52
>bounce-events-01556.pck


This is an orphaned bounce-events file that was left behind when
BounceRunner PID 1556 died - see below.


>The only questionable log entries I can find after/around the message
>posting is for an abort of the Archrunner and Bouncerunner before the disk
>filled:
>
>Nov 16 17:06:08 2011 (1533) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
>(pid: 1555, sig: 9, sts: None, class: ArchRunner, slice: 1/1) [restarting]
>Nov 16 17:06:14 2011 (27568) ArchRunner qrunner started.
>Nov 16 17:06:18 2011 (1533) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
>(pid: 1556, sig: 9, sts: None, class: BounceRunner, slice: 1/1) [restarting]
>Nov 16 17:06:20 2011 (27573) BounceRunner qrunner started.


BounceRunner PID 1556 died at 17:06 possibly while processing the
bounces in qfiles/bounces or while processing the bounce-events file.
This is within the normal 15 minute window for processing
bounce-events.

Where there any error log entries associated with the deaths of
BounceRunner or ArchRunner?


>Since the [somelist]-news list in question doesn't have archiving enabled
>(never has), so I the ArchRunner restart. There were no other qrunner
>restarts since 6:33 that morning, and the only later ones were when admin
>staff went in to clear things up.
>
>So chronologically:
>
>- 16:41 first bounce occurs and is written to bounce-events by PID 1556
>- 16:52 PID 1556 makes (according to the file system) its last write to
>bounce-events-1556.pck
>- 17:02 ArchRunner and BounceRunner get restart signals, PID 27573 is the
>new BounceRunner
>- 17:43 the disk fills to the point postfix starts complaining
>
>
>... that doesn't add up unless one presumes PID 1556 hung around and kept
>writing bounce-events-1556.pck from 17:02 to 17:43 (and probably beyond).


PID 1556 was gone at 17:06:18. It is not clear whether the repeated
bounce events were due to BounceRunner in some kind of loop or
BounceRunner actually receiving bounces from Postfix.

Are there Postfix log entries for the delivery of 5000 bounces to
Mailman? If so, it would seem Postfix is the culprit. If not, then it
would seem to be BounceRunner. I don't have a clue as to why
BounceRunner would do this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From rhaas at rhaas.us  Tue Nov 22 15:14:02 2011
From: rhaas at rhaas.us (Richard Haas)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 09:14:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] stuck bounce-events write
In-Reply-To: <PC1952011112123544107345c24eb47@MSAPIRO>
References: <CAEcLpa-q_9aZOyaSk+khG=NGK+wR=Ov2h6H6Kd=gsgBcUsEADg@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1952011112123544107345c24eb47@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <CAEcLpa_i3BRq2MKHiM0-tURe6-p=CveXrz2EgTjZVd1ia66erQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:54 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Richard Haas wrote:
> >
> >Last week, we ran into a rather odd event (first time we've seen it in a
> >decade or so of Mailman ops), where a bounced message kept writing to its
> >/var/mailman/data/bounce-events-PID.pck file, until it filled the disk
> [...]
> >The first bounce seemed normal:
> >
> >Delivery failed for the following reason:
> >Server entsrmbx01.teledyne.com[74.201.16.49] failed with: 550 #5.1.0
> >Address rejected <someone>@teledyne.com
> >This has been a permanent failure.  No further delivery attempts will be
> >made.
> >
> >
> >... and then the first bounce was written to the
> >/var/mailman/data/bounce-events pck file at:
> >
> >Received from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> >       by [myserver] (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3272D601E21
> >       for <[somelist]-news-bounces at myserver>; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:41:55
> >-0500 (EST)
> >
> >
> >... but was written another 5000 times with it's PDF attachment.
> >
> >... at 17:43 local, the disk filled with:
> >
> >Nov 16 17:43:13 [hostname] postfix/smtpd[27239]: NOQUEUE: reject: MAIL
> from
> >localhost[127.0.0.1]: 452 4.3.1 Insufficient system storage; proto=ESMTP
> >helo=<localhost>
> >Nov 16 17:43:13 [hostname] postfix/smtpd[27239]: warning: not enough free
> >space in mail queue: 36216832 bytes < 1.5*message size limit
>
>
> So is it Postfix that is repeatedly delivering this bounce message to
> Mailman, and Mailman is just trying to deal with it? If so, the
> underlying issue is with Postfix, not Mailman.
>
>
There's nothing in mail.log for 127.0.0.1 deliveries related to this list,
during the timeframe, except clean passes through amavis. Certainly no 5000
redeliveries.

There is normal traffic sending the message outbound to the 130 or so list
members, with about 20 bounces.

The original address that led to the bounce was accepted outbound for
delivery, and then came back about 17 seconds later, after remote
translation of

<someoneelse>@someresearch.com to <someone>@telecdyne.com

... but cam back only once at:

Nov 16 16:41:55 myhost amavis[26807]: (26807-14) Passed CLEAN,
[66.18.18.67] [66.18.18.67] <> -> <mylist-news-bounces at my.org>, Message-ID:
<20111116214143.10704.6534 at hm-mx2b.solinus.com>, mail_id: PvH5EnpUQiLg,
Hits: -, size: 7808036, queued_as: 3272D601E21, 677 ms

... which was when the first bounce was written to the bounce-events file.

Anyhow, it doesn't look like Postfix processed the bounce 5000 times, and
was repeatedly handing it back to BounceRunner.


> >Oddly, the bounce-events file's last write was considerably earlier:
> >
> >-rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 37867700224 2011-11-16 16:52
> >bounce-events-01556.pck
>
>
> This is an orphaned bounce-events file that was left behind when
> BounceRunner PID 1556 died - see below.
>
>
> >The only questionable log entries I can find after/around the message
> >posting is for an abort of the Archrunner and Bouncerunner before the disk
> >filled:
> >
> >Nov 16 17:06:08 2011 (1533) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
> >(pid: 1555, sig: 9, sts: None, class: ArchRunner, slice: 1/1) [restarting]
> >Nov 16 17:06:14 2011 (27568) ArchRunner qrunner started.
> >Nov 16 17:06:18 2011 (1533) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
> >(pid: 1556, sig: 9, sts: None, class: BounceRunner, slice: 1/1)
> [restarting]
> >Nov 16 17:06:20 2011 (27573) BounceRunner qrunner started.
>
>
> BounceRunner PID 1556 died at 17:06 possibly while processing the
> bounces in qfiles/bounces or while processing the bounce-events file.
> This is within the normal 15 minute window for processing
> bounce-events.
>
> Where there any error log entries associated with the deaths of
> BounceRunner or ArchRunner?
>
>
No, other than the sig 9(s) above, there's nothing in the qrunner logs
since 6:33 that morning, and afterwards (18:43) when admins did a halt on
mailman and postfix before moving the 37 GB bounce-events-01556.pck file to
another filesystem.


>
> >Since the [somelist]-news list in question doesn't have archiving enabled
> >(never has), so I the ArchRunner restart. There were no other qrunner
> >restarts since 6:33 that morning, and the only later ones were when admin
> >staff went in to clear things up.
> >
> >So chronologically:
> >
> >- 16:41 first bounce occurs and is written to bounce-events by PID 1556
> >- 16:52 PID 1556 makes (according to the file system) its last write to
> >bounce-events-1556.pck
> >- 17:02 ArchRunner and BounceRunner get restart signals, PID 27573 is the
> >new BounceRunner
> >- 17:43 the disk fills to the point postfix starts complaining
> >
> >
> >... that doesn't add up unless one presumes PID 1556 hung around and kept
> >writing bounce-events-1556.pck from 17:02 to 17:43 (and probably beyond).
>
>
> PID 1556 was gone at 17:06:18. It is not clear whether the repeated
> bounce events were due to BounceRunner in some kind of loop or
> BounceRunner actually receiving bounces from Postfix.
>
>
Since there's nothing to indicate postfix was repeatedly passing the
bounce, I think we're stuck looking at the BounceRunner.


> Are there Postfix log entries for the delivery of 5000 bounces to
> Mailman? If so, it would seem Postfix is the culprit. If not, then it
> would seem to be BounceRunner. I don't have a clue as to why
> BounceRunner would do this.
>
>
Well, that's where we were as well -- no explanation. Something works
flawlessly for 10 years, then goes wacky one time.

One admin here posited that there was a disk write error on the physical
hardware used by the virtualized host, which caused a reattempt for the
write ... unfortunately, there are no log entries for the OS for disk
errors, or in the hypervisor to support that theory either. :-/ So we're
back to gremlins.

Thanks for the consultation -- we're are least sure that we hadn't
overlooked something obvious. That helps.

Great software, this Mailman thing ... its quality makes our service
possible. Thanks again.

... now if pipermail could assemble the individual HTML links for each
message in the archives dynamically from the mbox files, keeping just the
topmost month/quarter/year links on disk, instead of using all that disk
space for individual article links to files so rarely accessed -- life
would be perfect.  But that's not a Mailman issue. ;-)


Richard
rhaas at rhaas.us

From mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de  Tue Nov 22 16:29:29 2011
From: mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de (Mailman Admin)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 16:29:29 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] stuck bounce-events write
In-Reply-To: <CAEcLpa_i3BRq2MKHiM0-tURe6-p=CveXrz2EgTjZVd1ia66erQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEcLpa-q_9aZOyaSk+khG=NGK+wR=Ov2h6H6Kd=gsgBcUsEADg@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1952011112123544107345c24eb47@MSAPIRO>
	<CAEcLpa_i3BRq2MKHiM0-tURe6-p=CveXrz2EgTjZVd1ia66erQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ECBBFD9.3040508@uni-konstanz.de>

Hi Richard Haas


On 2011-11-22 15:14, Richard Haas wrote:
< ... >
> 
> The original address that led to the bounce was accepted outbound for
> delivery, and then came back about 17 seconds later, after remote
> translation of
> 
> <someoneelse>@someresearch.com to <someone>@telecdyne.com
> 
> ... but cam back only once at:
> 
> Nov 16 16:41:55 myhost amavis[26807]: (26807-14) Passed CLEAN,
> [66.18.18.67] [66.18.18.67] <> -> <mylist-news-bounces at my.org>, Message-ID:
> <20111116214143.10704.6534 at hm-mx2b.solinus.com>, mail_id: PvH5EnpUQiLg,
> Hits: -, size: 7808036, queued_as: 3272D601E21, 677 ms
< cut >

What do you get for the queued Message 3272D601E21 in your postfix.log?


Kind regards,
Christian Mack

From listown at nanniandjack.com  Tue Nov 22 18:00:31 2011
From: listown at nanniandjack.com (Jack G F Hill)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 09:00:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Text for moderated non-member message reject
Message-ID: <4ECBD52F.4060909@nanniandjack.com>

I searched and looked, but am unable to find where the text for the 
message that is sent to a rejected moderation from a non-member 
("Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list") is stored 
so I can change it to something a tad less cryptic.

Situation:
Members of our list are also members of other, somewhat 
topically-related, lists and sometimes cc those other lists. When a 
member of the "other" list replies, it is held by our list since that 
individual is NOT a member of our list. I can easily recognize when this 
occurs, but the default reject message is a bit harsh for our purposes, 
which are to be somewhat inclusive rather than walled off...

Something like "You must be a member of the xyz_group to post messages 
to the list" (which is what I have manually inserted in place of the 
default message), if I could but find when the terse message is stored.
--
Jack Hill, W4KH - BoatAnchors Listowner/Archiver
listown at nanniandjack.com
"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"
"Il n'y a que les idiots qui ne changent jamais d'idee"

From adamsca at gmail.com  Tue Nov 22 21:02:14 2011
From: adamsca at gmail.com (Christopher Adams)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:02:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] question about harvesting of non-archived lists by
	archiveorange.com
Message-ID: <CAA13W+_TxfOo=0Advsy7kj74qTMdi7sqdecexKX9XysRN6=Fzg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

A list owner of one of our 500+ mailing lists notified me that
postings from their non-archived list was being harvested by
archiveorange.com and could be found via Google. I found that many of
our lists are archived on this site, and this is not something that we
really want.  I am just querying the list to see if this has happened
with others using Mailman. The website explains that archiveorange
"subscribes" to lists and then harvests messages. It seems that the
only way this could happen to a non-archived list is for the mailbox
directories to readable to the outside. Is there something else that
is going on here?

Thanks for any information that anyone has to offer.

-- 
Christopher Adams
adamsca at gmail.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 22 21:11:34 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:11:34 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Text for moderated non-member message reject
In-Reply-To: <4ECBD52F.4060909@nanniandjack.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520111122121134087538afdf8d@MSAPIRO>

Jack G F Hill wrote:

>I searched and looked, but am unable to find where the text for the 
>message that is sent to a rejected moderation from a non-member 
>("Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list") is stored 
>so I can change it to something a tad less cryptic.


The default reason for a message that is held and then rejected by a
moderator, i.e. "Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this
list.", is hard coded in Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py and can only be
changed by editing that module.

However, if set the list's Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
generic_nonmember_action to Reject in order to automatically reject
non-member posts, the default message is "You are not allowed to post
to this mailing list, and your message has been automatically
rejected.  If you think that your messages are being rejected in
error, contact the mailing list owner at ...",  and you can provide
your own message at Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
nonmember_rejection_notice.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 22 21:38:19 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:38:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] question about harvesting of non-archived lists
	byarchiveorange.com
In-Reply-To: <CAA13W+_TxfOo=0Advsy7kj74qTMdi7sqdecexKX9XysRN6=Fzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520111122123819053113a9ffe6@MSAPIRO>

Christopher Adams wrote:
>
>A list owner of one of our 500+ mailing lists notified me that
>postings from their non-archived list was being harvested by
>archiveorange.com and could be found via Google. I found that many of
>our lists are archived on this site, and this is not something that we
>really want.  I am just querying the list to see if this has happened
>with others using Mailman. The website explains that archiveorange
>"subscribes" to lists and then harvests messages. It seems that the
>only way this could happen to a non-archived list is for the mailbox
>directories to readable to the outside. Is there something else that
>is going on here?


Yes. One of the "members" of the archived list is the archiveorange.com
archiver, so that they receive list posts as they are sent. From their
web site, the address may be newman at archiveorange.com.

If in fact archiveorange.com does this without fully informed
affirmative consent of the list owner, that is highly unethical and
deplorable, but they wouldn't be the only ones. answerpot.com is
another.

For answerpot, I have

^.*[@.]apot(mail)?\.com$

in the ban_list of all my lists.


The archiveorange.com web site implies that the list owner must add
newman at archiveorange.com to the list to enable archiving, and that
they don't do it. If the list doesn't require approval for
subscription, it may be possible for anyone to request subscription of
the newman at archiveorange.com address. I don't know if this address
will respond to a confirmation email, but if it does, I would add it
to the ban_list of all lists (see
<http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/add_banned.py>).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From griscom at suitable.com  Tue Nov 22 19:28:05 2011
From: griscom at suitable.com (Daniel Griscom)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 13:28:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] archive_private locks up admin interface?
Message-ID: <p06240812caf1970efe4f@[192.168.1.8]>

I'm using Mailman 2.1.14 on my congregation's website, hosted by 
site5.com. We use it for a couple of dozen mailing lists, and haven't 
had many troubles.

Problem 1: someone noticed that all the list archives were publicly 
viewable, and even Googleable, which is a Bad Thing. So, I went into 
the Mailman admin interface to turn off the archives.

In the Archiving Options page, I found the "archive_private" setting. 
The description was a bit vague, but it seemed to be what I wanted, 
and currently was set to "public". So, I set it to "private", and 
submitted.

Problem 2: boom! The Admin interface crashed, saying

>Bug in Mailman version 2.1.14
>
>We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>
>Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing 
>of traceback and other system information has been explicitly 
>inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in the 
>Mailman error logs.

Problem 3: the Mailman admin interface for this list seems to be 
permanently borked. When I go back to the admin page, I'm invited to 
log in, but when I do it crashes again with the above message. 
Restarting Firefox (8.0.1 on OS X 10.5.8), deleting cookies, using a 
completely different browser: nothing helps.

Small good news 1: the list is still processing email. Small good 
news 2: the other lists' admin interfaces on this machine aren't 
borked, just the two I tried setting archive_private to "private" on. 
(I broke the second one so I could test whether emails were being 
processed.)


So, I need help on two items:

1) How do I un-bork those two mailing lists, without losing all of 
the list settings (especially the list of members)?

One note: since this is a shared server, my account is nailed down 
pretty tightly, and I'm pretty sure I don't even have access to the 
main mailman directories. So, I'll probably need to pass instructions 
on to the hosting company's tech support.


2) How can I keep the public from seeing these archives? In truth we 
don't need them even privately, so either making them private or 
getting rid of them completely would be fine by me.


Of course, if the answer is "set archive_private to private", then I 
need help on a third item:

3) How can I debug Mailmain's problem with the archive_private setting?


Many thanks,
Dan

-- 
Daniel T. Griscom             griscom at suitable.com
Suitable Systems              http://www.suitable.com/
1 Centre Street, Suite 204    (781) 665-0053
Wakefield, MA  01880-2400

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 23 07:32:08 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 22:32:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] archive_private locks up admin interface?
In-Reply-To: <p06240812caf1970efe4f@[192.168.1.8]>
Message-ID: <PC195201111222232080796cd12cfa4@MSAPIRO>

Daniel Griscom wrote:

>I'm using Mailman 2.1.14 on my congregation's website, hosted by 
>site5.com. We use it for a couple of dozen mailing lists, and haven't 
>had many troubles.
>
>Problem 1: someone noticed that all the list archives were publicly 
>viewable, and even Googleable, which is a Bad Thing. So, I went into 
>the Mailman admin interface to turn off the archives.
>
>In the Archiving Options page, I found the "archive_private" setting. 
>The description was a bit vague, but it seemed to be what I wanted, 
>and currently was set to "public". So, I set it to "private", and 
>submitted.
>
>Problem 2: boom! The Admin interface crashed, saying
>
>>Bug in Mailman version 2.1.14
>>
>>We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>>
>>Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing 
>>of traceback and other system information has been explicitly 
>>inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in the 
>>Mailman error logs.


And we can't help you without seeing this log information.


>Problem 3: the Mailman admin interface for this list seems to be 
>permanently borked. When I go back to the admin page, I'm invited to 
>log in, but when I do it crashes again with the above message. 
>Restarting Firefox (8.0.1 on OS X 10.5.8), deleting cookies, using a 
>completely different browser: nothing helps.


Because it's a server problem, not anything to do with your local
browser.


>Small good news 1: the list is still processing email. Small good 
>news 2: the other lists' admin interfaces on this machine aren't 
>borked, just the two I tried setting archive_private to "private" on. 
>(I broke the second one so I could test whether emails were being 
>processed.)
>
>
>So, I need help on two items:
>
>1) How do I un-bork those two mailing lists, without losing all of 
>the list settings (especially the list of members)?
>
>One note: since this is a shared server, my account is nailed down 
>pretty tightly, and I'm pretty sure I don't even have access to the 
>main mailman directories. So, I'll probably need to pass instructions 
>on to the hosting company's tech support.


No. You need to report the issue to the hosting service, and they need
to contact us directly if they need help resolving it. This will be
more effective than having to pass information through you in both
directions.


>2) How can I keep the public from seeing these archives? In truth we 
>don't need them even privately, so either making them private or 
>getting rid of them completely would be fine by me.


Either set the archive_private to private as you tried or set archive
to No or both. Note that merely setting archive to No while leaving
archive_private set to public will stop future archiving but will
leave the current, public archive intact and accessable.


>Of course, if the answer is "set archive_private to private", then I 
>need help on a third item:
>
>3) How can I debug Mailmain's problem with the archive_private setting?


Provide the contents of Mailman's 'error' log or report this issue to
the hosting provider.

Note that there is some underlying issue in the Mailman installation.
Merely setting the archive to private should not break the admin web
interface, but we have no clue as to what the problem is without
seeing Mailman's logs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From montoliu at cnb.csic.es  Wed Nov 23 09:53:01 2011
From: montoliu at cnb.csic.es (Lluis Montoliu)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 09:53:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] inactivating bounce processing to speed up list
	performance
Message-ID: <4ECCB46D.7090608@cnb.csic.es>

Dear listers,
I eventually traced that my mailman installation is delaying the 
distribution of messages because it is trapped in a bunch of "bounce 
processing", dealing with undelivered messages, etc... in this regard, 
could I simply inactivate bounce processing? If I do so I should expect 
an increase in speed and performance of mailman and a decrease in 
delays, but I might risk that some members, whose messages could not be 
delivered for whatever reasons, might loose some of these messages. Is 
that so? Would you recommend setting Mailman to not performing bounce 
processing to improve its performance?
thanks
Lluis

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Nov 23 10:10:21 2011
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:10:21 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] inactivating bounce processing to speed up list
 performance
In-Reply-To: <4ECCB46D.7090608@cnb.csic.es>
References: <4ECCB46D.7090608@cnb.csic.es>
Message-ID: <20111123091021.GH5749@charite.de>

* Lluis Montoliu <montoliu at cnb.csic.es>:
> Dear listers,
> I eventually traced that my mailman installation is delaying the
> distribution of messages because it is trapped in a bunch of "bounce
> processing", dealing with undelivered messages, etc... in this
> regard, could I simply inactivate bounce processing? 

No. You need to clean out your lists. Why are you sending out garbage to
non-existing addresses at? A properly maintained list has a low
percentage of undeliverables - when (as in your case) the undeliverables
are exceeding the normal fallout of about 3%, then you're having bad
lists.

> If I do so I should expect an increase in speed and performance of
> mailman and a decrease in delays, but I might risk that some members,
> whose messages could not be delivered for whatever reasons, might loose
> some of these messages. Is that so?

No.

> Would you recommend setting Mailman to not performing bounce processing
> to improve its performance? thanks Lluis

No.

Sending mail to non-deliverable adresses is going to get you into
blacklists. That's how Hotmail and SenderScore work. Furthermore
you're going to hit spamtraps sooner or later.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt
  Gesch?ftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk
  Charit? - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
  Campus Benjamin Franklin
  Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin
  Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962
  ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de | http://www.charite.de
	    

From carlos.palomino at me.com  Wed Nov 23 11:11:02 2011
From: carlos.palomino at me.com (Carlos Palomino)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 05:11:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts?
In-Reply-To: <4ECCB46D.7090608@cnb.csic.es>
References: <4ECCB46D.7090608@cnb.csic.es>
Message-ID: <24BF46E3-7B16-4078-99F2-13F4BB29BF1C@me.com>

Hello all,

Several subscribers of my list are complaining of duplicate posts.  They say it happens "only sometimes".

Are there any common reasons for such occurrences?  I don't experience this on my test-member account or in my regularly subscribed address, so it's difficult to track down.


Any ideas are appreciated.



Thanks.

C.


From montoliu at cnb.csic.es  Wed Nov 23 12:24:20 2011
From: montoliu at cnb.csic.es (Lluis Montoliu)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:24:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] inactivating bounce processing to speed up list
 performance
Message-ID: <4ECCD7E4.1000008@cnb.csic.es>

Thanks Ralf, I understand.

Apologies If I did not make myself understandable. I am not sending garbage to non-existing addresses. All addresses are verified and existing but not all messages appear to be delivered equally well, to my surprise, while some servers appear to refuse messages coming from this list for a while, until they are accepted for distribution, thus delaying overall mailman performance while it keeps trying to deliver, therefore I was considering to cancel bounce processing to speed up mailman performance. When I ask my hosting provider for the SMTP logs there appears to be activity by mailman, bounce processing, when there are no messages to distribute through the list, therefore I inferred that we are experiencing delays in distribution, beyond 30-60 minutes, from a message being sent to a message being distributed, because of this bounce processing actions. This is a list with about 600 members.

According to your answer this would not work this way.

regards

Lluis



* Lluis Montoliu<montoliu at cnb.csic.es>:

> Dear listers,
> I eventually traced that my mailman installation is delaying the
> distribution of messages because it is trapped in a bunch of "bounce
> processing", dealing with undelivered messages, etc... in this
> regard, could I simply inactivate bounce processing?
No. You need to clean out your lists. Why are you sending out garbage to
non-existing addresses at? A properly maintained list has a low
percentage of undeliverables - when (as in your case) the undeliverables
are exceeding the normal fallout of about 3%, then you're having bad
lists.


> If I do so I should expect an increase in speed and performance of
> mailman and a decrease in delays, but I might risk that some members,
> whose messages could not be delivered for whatever reasons, might loose
> some of these messages. Is that so?
No.


> Would you recommend setting Mailman to not performing bounce processing
> to improve its performance? thanks Lluis
No.

Sending mail to non-deliverable adresses is going to get you into
blacklists. That's how Hotmail and SenderScore work. Furthermore
you're going to hit spamtraps sooner or later.

-- Ralf Hildebrandt Gesch?ftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk Charit? - 
Universit?tsmedizin Berlin Campus Benjamin Franklin Hindenburgdamm 30 | 
D-12203 Berlin Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962 
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de | http://www.charite.de

-- 
Dr. Lluis Montoliu
Investigador Cientifico - Research Scientist CSIC
Centro Nacional de Biotecnologia (CNB-CSIC)
Campus de Cantoblanco
C/ Darwin, 3
28049 Madrid (Spain)
Tel. +34-91-5854844  / Fax +34-91-5854506
e-mail: montoliu at cnb.csic.es
skype: lluis.montoliu
WEB: http://www.cnb.csic.es/~montoliu/
UAM: http://rincon.uam.es/dir?cw=766897583007812
U756 CIBERER: http://www.ciberer.es
Spanish EMMA node: http://www.emmanet.org
ISTT: http://www.transtechsociety.org



From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Nov 23 13:54:12 2011
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:54:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] inactivating bounce processing to speed up list
 performance
In-Reply-To: <4ECCD7E4.1000008@cnb.csic.es>
References: <4ECCD7E4.1000008@cnb.csic.es>
Message-ID: <20111123125412.GP5749@charite.de>

* Lluis Montoliu <montoliu at cnb.csic.es>:
> Thanks Ralf, I understand.
> 
> Apologies If I did not make myself understandable. I am not sending
> garbage to non-existing addresses. All addresses are verified and
> existing but not all messages appear to be delivered equally well, to
> my surprise, while some servers appear to refuse messages coming from
> this list for a while, until they are accepted for distribution, thus
> delaying overall mailman performance while it keeps trying to deliver,

Mailman Performance is not depending on this. Mailman hands the
messages down to an MTA which does the sending - and MTA and Mailman
are not really tightly coupled. Any decent MTA will back off from
temporarily unreachable destinations. If you must, you can configure
your MTA to pass these "not immediately undeliverable mails" to a
fallback relay (config parameter fallback_relay = hostname in Postfix).

> therefore I was considering to cancel bounce processing to speed up
> mailman performance. 

But what you're describing is not generating bounces! Those tempfails
only delay outgoing mail. No bounces occur (unless the delay exceeds a
VERY long time, like 3-5 days - then the mails will eventually bounce).

> When I ask my hosting provider for the SMTP logs there appears to be
> activity by mailman, bounce processing, when there are no messages to
> distribute through the list, therefore I inferred that we are
> experiencing delays in distribution, beyond 30-60 minutes, from a
> message being sent to a message being distributed, because of this
> bounce processing actions. This is a list with about 600 members.

This is really a tiny list. Are you really getting this many bounces?
How many are you getting, and WHY?

I think one needs to look at these logs. 

Bounce processing ONLY kicks in if the mails are REALLY undeliverable
(user unknown, blacklistings and the like). And they would only hurt
performance if a really large percentage of mails would bounce
simultaneously.

Even with 600 members on the list, and all bouncing, processing time
would be REALLY low:

Nov 19 12:24:14 albatross postfix/local[26944]: 3Slv3L0yJvzPbP: to=<mailman-bounces at mail.python.org>,
orig_to=<mailman-bounces at python.org>, relay=local, delay=0.08, delays=0/0/0/0.07, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces mailman)

a single bounce takes 0.08s, with 600 recipients all bouncing you
would be at 600*0.08s=48s - which is not really that much.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt
  Gesch?ftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk
  Charit? - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
  Campus Benjamin Franklin
  Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin
  Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962
  ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de | http://www.charite.de
	    

From mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de  Wed Nov 23 15:27:53 2011
From: mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de (Mailman Admin)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 15:27:53 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts?
In-Reply-To: <24BF46E3-7B16-4078-99F2-13F4BB29BF1C@me.com>
References: <4ECCB46D.7090608@cnb.csic.es>
	<24BF46E3-7B16-4078-99F2-13F4BB29BF1C@me.com>
Message-ID: <4ECD02E9.6020604@uni-konstanz.de>

On 2011-11-23 11:11, Carlos Palomino wrote:
> 
> Several subscribers of my list are complaining of duplicate posts.  They say it happens "only sometimes".
> 
> Are there any common reasons for such occurrences?  I don't experience this on my test-member account or in my regularly subscribed address, so it's difficult to track down.
> 
> 
> Any ideas are appreciated.

Perhaps this comes with users replying to all.
So they send their reply to the user and the list.

BTW:
This is usually recommended in nettiquetts to do this. I always do it on
lists.


Kind regards,
Christian Mack

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 23 16:46:36 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 07:46:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts?
In-Reply-To: <4ECD02E9.6020604@uni-konstanz.de>
Message-ID: <PC195201111230746360078eeb3e632@MSAPIRO>

Mailman Admin wrote:

>On 2011-11-23 11:11, Carlos Palomino wrote:
>> 
>> Several subscribers of my list are complaining of duplicate posts.  They say it happens "only sometimes".
>> 
>> Are there any common reasons for such occurrences?  I don't experience this on my test-member account or in my regularly subscribed address, so it's difficult to track down.
>> 
>> 
>> Any ideas are appreciated.
>
>Perhaps this comes with users replying to all.
>So they send their reply to the user and the list.


This will cause a duplicate if and only if the "nodups" setting of the
recipient who is also directly addressed is off. In a default
installation, this setting defaults to On for new subscribers, but the
list admin can change it (new_member_options -> Filter out duplicate
messages to list members (if possible)), and individual members can
change their own settings

Other possibilities include cross posts to multiple lists of which the
recipient is a member, and duplication in the delivery chain after the
post has left Mailman. The latter may be detectable by comparing the
Received: header chain of the two received messages.

Another possibility is duplication caused by filtering/sorting rules in
the recipient's MUA. Depending on the exact rules, this could affect
only some posts, but would not likely affect more than one user.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From carlos.palomino at me.com  Wed Nov 23 19:08:46 2011
From: carlos.palomino at me.com (Carlos Palomino)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:08:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts?
In-Reply-To: <PC195201111230746360078eeb3e632@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC195201111230746360078eeb3e632@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <2D3288F8-533F-41A8-89B9-2554E1D4C176@me.com>

It appears they are replying to all, as in the few header samples I've seen, there are two instances of the group address (in the To and CC fields).

I have the setting checked to filter out duplicates, but still receiving complaints.
Not sure how to handle this, as it seems to be on the user's end.


C.


On Nov 23, 2011, at 10:46 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

Mailman Admin wrote:

> On 2011-11-23 11:11, Carlos Palomino wrote:
>> 
>> Several subscribers of my list are complaining of duplicate posts.  They say it happens "only sometimes".
>> 
>> Are there any common reasons for such occurrences?  I don't experience this on my test-member account or in my regularly subscribed address, so it's difficult to track down.
>> 
>> 
>> Any ideas are appreciated.
> 
> Perhaps this comes with users replying to all.
> So they send their reply to the user and the list.


This will cause a duplicate if and only if the "nodups" setting of the
recipient who is also directly addressed is off. In a default
installation, this setting defaults to On for new subscribers, but the
list admin can change it (new_member_options -> Filter out duplicate
messages to list members (if possible)), and individual members can
change their own settings

Other possibilities include cross posts to multiple lists of which the
recipient is a member, and duplication in the delivery chain after the
post has left Mailman. The latter may be detectable by comparing the
Received: header chain of the two received messages.

Another possibility is duplication caused by filtering/sorting rules in
the recipient's MUA. Depending on the exact rules, this could affect
only some posts, but would not likely affect more than one user.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dandrews at visi.com  Wed Nov 23 17:17:12 2011
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:17:12 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts?
In-Reply-To: <24BF46E3-7B16-4078-99F2-13F4BB29BF1C@me.com>
References: <4ECCB46D.7090608@cnb.csic.es>
	<24BF46E3-7B16-4078-99F2-13F4BB29BF1C@me.com>
Message-ID: <4ECD1C88.10803@visi.com>



On 11/23/2011 4:11 AM, Carlos Palomino wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Several subscribers of my list are complaining of duplicate posts.  They say it happens "only sometimes".
>
> Are there any common reasons for such occurrences?  I don't experience this on my test-member account or in my regularly subscribed address, so it's difficult to track down.
>
I run about 200 lists, so get this complaint fairly regularly.  In 
virtually every case, or every case it turns out to be user error -- 
Mailman just doesn't send out duplicate posts, it seems to me.  People 
may have subscribed under two different addresses, or in one case the 
user had a mail filter in place that was bad, and directed messages to 
two different places.

Unsubscribe their address, and if they still get messages, have them 
forward to you with headers, so you can see what is going on at their end.

Dave



From griscom at suitable.com  Wed Nov 23 20:43:24 2011
From: griscom at suitable.com (Daniel Griscom)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:43:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] archive_private locks up admin interface?
In-Reply-To: <PC195201111222232080796cd12cfa4@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC195201111222232080796cd12cfa4@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <p06240800caf2fc965742@[192.168.1.8]>

At 10:32 PM -0800 11/22/11, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>Daniel Griscom wrote:
>In the Archiving Options page, I found the "archive_private" setting.
>  >The description was a bit vague, but it seemed to be what I wanted,
>>and currently was set to "public". So, I set it to "private", and
>>submitted.
>>
>>Problem 2: boom! The Admin interface crashed, saying
>>
>>>Bug in Mailman version 2.1.14
>>>
>>>We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>>>
>>>Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing
>>>of traceback and other system information has been explicitly
>>>inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in the
>  >>Mailman error logs.

There's been some progress on the hosting support side:

>My apologies for the delay in responding, I've found the problem 
>with the mailing lists and will correcting them shortly - I will 
>update this ticket once it's been corrected for you. This is a 
>result of a previously unknown cPanel migration bug that seems to 
>have been around for quite a while unfortunately.


I'll bring back anything I learn that might help make Mailman more robust.


Thanks for the encouragement,
Dan

-- 
Daniel T. Griscom             griscom at suitable.com
Suitable Systems              http://www.suitable.com/
1 Centre Street, Suite 204    (781) 665-0053
Wakefield, MA  01880-2400

From rpschwar at knology.net  Thu Nov 24 00:31:12 2011
From: rpschwar at knology.net (Robert P. Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 17:31:12 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts?
In-Reply-To: <2D3288F8-533F-41A8-89B9-2554E1D4C176@me.com>
References: <PC195201111230746360078eeb3e632@MSAPIRO>
	<2D3288F8-533F-41A8-89B9-2554E1D4C176@me.com>
Message-ID: <8ACE1931B94943458C2A27A1716C2077@SchwartzDT>

I seem to have the same problem.  It only happens sometimes and to different
users.

Robert P. Schwartz
206 Cedar Pond Drive
Madison, AL 35757
 
Phone: 256.830.2933
Cell:      256.509.2981
 
E-mail:  rpschwar at knology.net
 
-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+rpschwar=knology.net at python.org
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+rpschwar=knology.net at python.org] On Behalf Of
Carlos Palomino
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:09 PM
To: Mailman-Users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts?

It appears they are replying to all, as in the few header samples I've seen,
there are two instances of the group address (in the To and CC fields).

I have the setting checked to filter out duplicates, but still receiving
complaints.
Not sure how to handle this, as it seems to be on the user's end.


C.


On Nov 23, 2011, at 10:46 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

Mailman Admin wrote:

> On 2011-11-23 11:11, Carlos Palomino wrote:
>> 
>> Several subscribers of my list are complaining of duplicate posts.  They
say it happens "only sometimes".
>> 
>> Are there any common reasons for such occurrences?  I don't experience
this on my test-member account or in my regularly subscribed address, so
it's difficult to track down.
>> 
>> 
>> Any ideas are appreciated.
> 
> Perhaps this comes with users replying to all.
> So they send their reply to the user and the list.


This will cause a duplicate if and only if the "nodups" setting of the
recipient who is also directly addressed is off. In a default
installation, this setting defaults to On for new subscribers, but the
list admin can change it (new_member_options -> Filter out duplicate
messages to list members (if possible)), and individual members can
change their own settings

Other possibilities include cross posts to multiple lists of which the
recipient is a member, and duplication in the delivery chain after the
post has left Mailman. The latter may be detectable by comparing the
Received: header chain of the two received messages.

Another possibility is duplication caused by filtering/sorting rules in
the recipient's MUA. Depending on the exact rules, this could affect
only some posts, but would not likely affect more than one user.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/rpschwar%40knology.net


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 24 01:19:27 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 16:19:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts?
In-Reply-To: <2D3288F8-533F-41A8-89B9-2554E1D4C176@me.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952011112316192702657a28f424@MSAPIRO>

Carlos Palomino wrote:

>It appears they are replying to all, as in the few header samples I've seen, there are two instances of the group address (in the To and CC fields).
>
>I have the setting checked to filter out duplicates, but still receiving complaints.
>Not sure how to handle this, as it seems to be on the user's end.


It appears that the issue is you have your list setting
reply_goes_to_list set to This list. Thus, posts received from the
list are To: the list as sent by the original poster and have a
Reply-To: the list added by Mailman. Then a recipient does a reply-all
and the recipient's MUA generates a reply To: the list from the
Reply-To: with Cc: the list from the original To:. Some MTAs will drop
duplicate message recipients, but if none of the MTAs handling this
message drop the duplicate, it will be delivered to the list twice,
possibly archived twice (the archiver may drop a duplicate
Message-ID:), appear twice in digests and be sent twice to message
recipients.

You can easily avoid this by setting reply_goes_to_list to Poster. This
will solve the problem for the reply-all replies, but those who just
reply will find their replies going to the poster rather than the list.

This is really a user education problem, and can't be solved because no
matter what you do, some users won't like it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 24 02:32:23 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 17:32:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate posts?
In-Reply-To: <8ACE1931B94943458C2A27A1716C2077@SchwartzDT>
Message-ID: <PC195201111231732230515e751e7da@MSAPIRO>

Robert P. Schwartz wrote:

>I seem to have the same problem.  It only happens sometimes and to different
>users.


Tell the users that when they receive duplicates, they need to send
copies of both messages including all headers to you - preferably
forwarded as attachments, but any way that preserves all the headers
is OK.

Then you have to examine all the headers of both messages to determine
where they diverge. The oldest Received: headers (the ones furthest
from the top) and headers like Message-ID: and Date: should be the
same, but at some point, the newer Received: headers will differ. This
is where the duplication occurred.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From christopher at custommade.org.uk  Wed Nov 23 19:03:10 2011
From: christopher at custommade.org.uk (Christopher Woods (CustomMade))
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 18:03:10 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rather perplexing set of problems with a new 2.1.14
	vhost install on a DirectAdmin box -- and I'm new to Mailman
Message-ID: <2CCE206B603C4AB9ADAFB74755105349@mofolaptop>

Hi all,

After becoming frustrated with Majordomo I decided to install Mailman on a
DirectAdmin box I fell into managing. After some research I found Mark
Sapiro's 2.1.14 vhost port
(https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/vhost) which includes some
fixes and merges of virtual hosting patches to the 2.1.13 base; I followed
the instructions on
http://projects.ict4schools.nl/public/wiki/linux-alg/Installing_Mailman_on_D
irectAdmin and initial install seemed to finish OK.

I configured it with the default_email_host of lists.primarydomain.tld and
default_url_host of lists.primarydomain.tld (I'm obfuscating all URLs) in
mm_cfg.py; I also set up three additional virtualhosts in mm_cfg.py with the
add_virtualhost() command, let's call those lists.domain[2-4].tld.

I could load the mailman listinfo page -- and after a couple of small fixes
to Apache aliases, including realising that running "check_perms -f" on an
already-functional installation resets the permissions on "/cgi-bin/" and
breaks the install, I thought I was up and running.

After checking DNS had refreshed, I could bring up the mailman/listinfo
welcome page for all of the domains configured. Having created the mailman
list as part of the installation at the command prompt without issue, and
received the email as expected, I went straight to the
http://lists.domain1.tld virtualhost and set up a new list named
'announce-test' via "http://lists.domain1.tld/mailman/create". This seemed
to work ok and threw no errors; however when clicking on the list from the
success page, I just got "No such list announce-test at domain1.tld". NB that
this error message also shows "domain1.tld" and not "lists.domain1.tld" as
expected, so it looks like it's ignored the subdomain -- why, I do not know.


I then went back to my email and noticed that mailman had sent me an
approval email with two attachments: the original "confirm" email and a
"gate_news" email, containing the following:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 293, in ?
    main()
  File "/home/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 268, in main
    lock.lock(timeout=0.5)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 243, in lock
    self.__write()
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 422, in __write
    fp = open(self.__tmpfname, 'w')
IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
'/home/mailman/locks/gate_news.lock.node1.customhost.org.uk.12404.0'


The body of the main message reads:

As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the following
mailing list posting:

    List:    mailman at lists.primarydomain.tld
    From:    root at sub.primarydomain.tld  [note -- node1.primarydomain.tld
was the Xen subdomain assigned to the CentOS VPS when it was first
configured]
    Subject: Cron <mailman at node1> /usr/bin/python -S
/home/mailman/cron/gate_news
    Reason:  Post by non-member to a members-only list

At your convenience, visit:
    http://lists.primarydomain.tld/mailman/admindb/mailman
to approve or deny the request.

If I then visit http://lists.primarydomain.tld/mailman/admindb/mailman

But attempting to log in with any password just shows "Bug in Mailman
version 2.1.14 We're sorry, we hit a bug!" and an indication to check
tracebacks and the Mailman error logs (which I have done, and can see
nothing untoward except this:

admin(17706): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(17706):   File "/home/mailman/scripts/driver", line 112, in run_main
admin(17706):     main()
admin(17706):   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 106, in
main
admin(17706):     cgidata.getvalue('adminpw', '')):
admin(17706):   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/SecurityManager.py", line 244,
in WebAuthenticate
admin(17706):     print self.MakeCookie(ac, user)
admin(17706):   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/SecurityManager.py", line 262,
in MakeCookie
admin(17706):     path = parsed.path
admin(17706): AttributeError: 'tuple' object has no attribute 'path'



Calling 'list_lists' from the commandline shows 'announce-test' and
'mailman', as expected. The only thing I haven't done is added the list's
aliases yet to the 'aliases' file -- I'm guessing they need to go into
/etc/aliases rather than in a DirectAdmin /etc/virtual/<domain> aliases file
(which don't currently exist anyway, as the subdomains are only set up as A
records in DA's DNS management panel).

Finally, tailing /home/mailman/logs/error shows the following when I try to
load the announce-test listinfo page:

No such list "announce-test at domain1.tld":

I'm at my wit's end; I feel like I'm so close but I'm still building up my
Linux experience and this has gone beyond the scope of my current knowledge.
I really don't want to have to revert to Majordomo but I don't honestly know
what to look at yet to try and fix these misconfigurations.

Any help *greatly* appreciated -- happy to let people examine the system if
they so desire, I understand it's difficult chasing bugs without being able
to examine specific settings impromptu.

Regards
Chris


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 24 03:28:08 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 18:28:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rather perplexing set of problems with a new
	2.1.14vhost install on a DirectAdmin box -- and I'm new to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <2CCE206B603C4AB9ADAFB74755105349@mofolaptop>
Message-ID: <PC1952011112318280809215d76a4e1@MSAPIRO>

Christopher Woods \(CustomMade\) wrote:
>
>After becoming frustrated with Majordomo I decided to install Mailman on a
>DirectAdmin box I fell into managing. After some research I found Mark
>Sapiro's 2.1.14 vhost port
>(https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/vhost) which includes some
>fixes and merges of virtual hosting patches to the 2.1.13 base;


Why are you using the vhosts branch? Do you need to support separate
lists that have the same name but different domains? If not, don't use
the vhosts branch.


> I followed
>the instructions on
>http://projects.ict4schools.nl/public/wiki/linux-alg/Installing_Mailman_on_DirectAdmin 
>and initial install seemed to finish OK.


I see these imply you need the vhosts branch if you have multiple
virtual hosts. This is not true in general and is only true if you
need list names which aren't globally unique.


>I configured it with the default_email_host of lists.primarydomain.tld and
>default_url_host of lists.primarydomain.tld (I'm obfuscating all URLs) in
>mm_cfg.py; I also set up three additional virtualhosts in mm_cfg.py with the
>add_virtualhost() command, let's call those lists.domain[2-4].tld.
>
>I could load the mailman listinfo page -- and after a couple of small fixes
>to Apache aliases, including realising that running "check_perms -f" on an
>already-functional installation resets the permissions on "/cgi-bin/" and
>breaks the install, I thought I was up and running.


check_perms shouldn't break permissions on $prefix/cgi-bin/ unless you
had to change them for DirectAdmin.


>After checking DNS had refreshed, I could bring up the mailman/listinfo
>welcome page for all of the domains configured. Having created the mailman
>list as part of the installation at the command prompt without issue, and
>received the email as expected, I went straight to the
>http://lists.domain1.tld virtualhost and set up a new list named
>'announce-test' via "http://lists.domain1.tld/mailman/create". This seemed
>to work ok and threw no errors; however when clicking on the list from the
>success page, I just got "No such list announce-test at domain1.tld". NB that
>this error message also shows "domain1.tld" and not "lists.domain1.tld" as
>expected, so it looks like it's ignored the subdomain -- why, I do not know.


I don't offhand know either, but I think that the create CGI may not
work in this branch. It may be that you have to create all lists with
bin/newlist, and it too is unintuitive in that you need to both
specify the listname as a fully qualified posting address and specify
the --urlhost= option.


>I then went back to my email and noticed that mailman had sent me an
>approval email with two attachments: the original "confirm" email and a
>"gate_news" email, containing the following:
>
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/home/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 293, in ?
>    main()
>  File "/home/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 268, in main
>    lock.lock(timeout=0.5)
>  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 243, in lock
>    self.__write()
>  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 422, in __write
>    fp = open(self.__tmpfname, 'w')
>IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
>'/home/mailman/locks/gate_news.lock.node1.customhost.org.uk.12404.0'


There is a permissions problem with gate_news which is run every 5
minutes by cron. gate_news is trying to create a lock and doesn't have
permission. The next issue is Mailman's cron jobs are running as user
'mailman' so the above error report from the cron job is mailed by
crond to 'mailman' which is a post to the 'mailman' list.


>The body of the main message reads:
>
>As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the following
>mailing list posting:
>
>    List:    mailman at lists.primarydomain.tld
>    From:    root at sub.primarydomain.tld  [note -- node1.primarydomain.tld
>was the Xen subdomain assigned to the CentOS VPS when it was first
>configured]
>    Subject: Cron <mailman at node1> /usr/bin/python -S
>/home/mailman/cron/gate_news
>    Reason:  Post by non-member to a members-only list
>
>At your convenience, visit:
>    http://lists.primarydomain.tld/mailman/admindb/mailman
>to approve or deny the request.


So errors from cron are being sent to the 'mailman' list. You can
configure this list to accept non-member posts or you can put

MAILTO=someone at example.com

at the beginning of Mailman's crontab to avoid this issue.


>If I then visit http://lists.primarydomain.tld/mailman/admindb/mailman
>
>But attempting to log in with any password just shows "Bug in Mailman
>version 2.1.14 We're sorry, we hit a bug!" and an indication to check
>tracebacks and the Mailman error logs (which I have done, and can see
>nothing untoward except this:
>
>admin(17706): Traceback (most recent call last):
>admin(17706):   File "/home/mailman/scripts/driver", line 112, in run_main
>admin(17706):     main()
>admin(17706):   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 106, in
>main
>admin(17706):     cgidata.getvalue('adminpw', '')):
>admin(17706):   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/SecurityManager.py", line 244,
>in WebAuthenticate
>admin(17706):     print self.MakeCookie(ac, user)
>admin(17706):   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/SecurityManager.py", line 262,
>in MakeCookie
>admin(17706):     path = parsed.path
>admin(17706): AttributeError: 'tuple' object has no attribute 'path'


This require Python 2.5 at a minimum. For earlier Python versions you
could change line 262 of /home/mailman/Mailman/SecurityManager.py to

        path = parsed[2]


>Calling 'list_lists' from the commandline shows 'announce-test' and
>'mailman', as expected. The only thing I haven't done is added the list's
>aliases yet to the 'aliases' file -- I'm guessing they need to go into
>/etc/aliases rather than in a DirectAdmin /etc/virtual/<domain> aliases file
>(which don't currently exist anyway, as the subdomains are only set up as A
>records in DA's DNS management panel).
>
>Finally, tailing /home/mailman/logs/error shows the following when I try to
>load the announce-test listinfo page:
>
>No such list "announce-test at domain1.tld":
>
>I'm at my wit's end; I feel like I'm so close but I'm still building up my
>Linux experience and this has gone beyond the scope of my current knowledge.
>I really don't want to have to revert to Majordomo but I don't honestly know
>what to look at yet to try and fix these misconfigurations.


If you really need the vhosts branch, I'll work with you on the
problems, but if you can live with globally unique list names, I
suggest you update your Python to 2.6.x and install either the
2.1.14-1 tarball from <https://launchpad.net/mailman/+download> or the
head of the branch at
<https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From christopher at custommade.org.uk  Thu Nov 24 04:10:21 2011
From: christopher at custommade.org.uk (Christopher Woods (CustomMade))
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 03:10:21 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rather perplexing set of problems with a new
	2.1.14vhost install on a DirectAdmin box -- and I'm new to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <PC1952011112318280809215d76a4e1@MSAPIRO>
References: <2CCE206B603C4AB9ADAFB74755105349@mofolaptop>
	<PC1952011112318280809215d76a4e1@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <87FEAC7F752E4A5FBCA77620640FEAC0@mofolaptop>

> If you really need the vhosts branch, I'll work with you on 
> the problems, but if you can live with globally unique list 
> names, I suggest you update your Python to 2.6.x and install 
> either the
> 2.1.14-1 tarball from 
> <https://launchpad.net/mailman/+download> or the head of the 
> branch at <https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1>.

Crikey Mark, thanks for your great response especially given my inaugural
post only made the list a couple of hours ago. Have to cop to it - part of
the reason I went with that specific install guide was because I'm working
in a DA environment (a little nonstandard to begin with). I was also, as you
say, angling towards a setup where I could reuse list names -- or rather,
not have to worry about clashes (long run, they'll be used for various promo
and mailout lists to industry contacts which may well be the same). This VPS
is a shared hosting environment too so I didn't think I could justify
potentially denying another user a list name if it was common. However, if
things just aren't working I see no reason in swimming through treacle until
I have a slightly better understanding of Mailman's innards :-)

Wondering if part of the problems are due to the OS (CentOS)... This VPS
came specced with it, and I went along with the choice. Little was I aware
of the development approach with regards to new and shiny... (this is your
cue to all have a chuckle at my expense ;-) My installed Python is 2.4;
python-devel was installed new today - but, of course, is still old.
Installing the vhosts branch (via bazaar) did initially abort, prompt me to
include the toolkit (available in the -devel branch) which I installed fresh
before running make install for a second time. Trying yum update python just
now, of course, it didn't offer me anything above what I already had --
because this is an old issue which I had no idea about (still on the uphill
climb on the learning curve). Discussed here:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1465036/install-python-2-6-in-centos.
Essentially for those unaware (probably just me), CentOS doesn't really like
officially supporting latest versions of established software, opting
instead for stability over new features (and backporting security fixes).
Wreaks havoc if you want to use Python 2.6 because many parts of the OS
depend on older versions of packages, including Python 2.4.

>From quickly skimreading the SO thread, it seems building python26 from
source will be the simplest way... but will Mailman work fine if 2.6 is
installed to coexist with 2.4 (which I'm reading is a dependency for things
like yum?)

I'm on the road all day tomorrow but I'll have a play, get 2.6 installed and
then see what happens when I prod the current install. Failing that, I'll
ditch it (thanking myself I backed up things like exim confs ;-) and try
Mailman's standard flavour.

Thanks so far, feel like I'm slowly making progress. (and I'll be glad to
bid adieu to Majordomo)
Chris

--
Epilogue

My reading for tomorrow evening so far is as follows: 
1. http://chrislea.com/2009/09/09/easy-python-2-6-django-on-centos-5/
2.
http://www.geekymedia.com/tech-articles/rhel5-centos5-rpms-for-python-2-5-an
d-2-6/
3. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL

If you have any more I should check out / bear in mind prior to additional
fiddling I'll appreciate any gentle shepherding in the right direction.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Nov 24 05:26:09 2011
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 13:26:09 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rather perplexing set of problems with a
	new	2.1.14vhost install on a DirectAdmin box -- and I'm new
	to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <87FEAC7F752E4A5FBCA77620640FEAC0@mofolaptop>
References: <2CCE206B603C4AB9ADAFB74755105349@mofolaptop>
	<PC1952011112318280809215d76a4e1@MSAPIRO>
	<87FEAC7F752E4A5FBCA77620640FEAC0@mofolaptop>
Message-ID: <874nxuqh7i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Christopher Woods \(CustomMade\) writes:

 > Crikey Mark, thanks for your great response

Yeah, +1 to that!

 > Have to cop to it - part of the reason I went with that specific
 > install guide was because I'm working in a DA environment (a little
 > nonstandard to begin with).

"DA" == "disability assistance"?<wink>

 > I was also, as you say, angling towards a setup where I could reuse
 > list names -- or rather, not have to worry about clashes (long run,
 > they'll be used for various promo and mailout lists to industry
 > contacts which may well be the same). This VPS is a shared hosting
 > environment too so I didn't think I could justify potentially
 > denying another user a list name if it was common.

That sounds like a reasonable reason for using the vhost in the first
place.  I don't think you need to apologize, although you may have
misunderstood precisely what the restrictions in vanilla Mailman 2 are
(ML names must be unique per Mailman installation, so if you have a
private Mailman installation you only have to worry about clashes with
lists administered by you at the site level, and of course by domain
-- which is an MTA restriction, you can't get around that by having
multiple Mailmans serving the same domain).

 > Wondering if part of the problems are due to the OS (CentOS)...

Yes, in the sense you describe.  However, other stable distros (Debian
stable, RHEL) have similar restrictions (I don't know if they're as
old as 2.4, but if recent Centos is on 2.4, RHEL probably is too).
Ubuntu is a bit more recent, but given my friends' experience, I don't
know if I'd conside even Ubuntu LTS "stable".

 > Wreaks havoc if you want to use Python 2.6 because many parts of the OS
 > depend on older versions of packages, including Python 2.4.

You should look into Python virtual environments.  In at least one of
the distros I use this is called "virtualenv" in the Python category.
In a nutshell, it provides a semi-open sandbox ("semi" because Python
is sandboxed to a specific version, but you use other system resources
as usual, nothing so severe as a chroot or virtual machine).

 > >From quickly skimreading the SO thread, it seems building python26 from
 > source will be the simplest way... but will Mailman work fine if 2.6 is
 > installed to coexist with 2.4 (which I'm reading is a dependency for things
 > like yum?)

Yes, it will work, but the virtualenv may be a good way to get the
configuration right.  (You'll have to install Python 2.6 from source
or a separate package anyway; virtualenv will only help with the
configuration of the sandbox that you'll need to create.)


From tmz at pobox.com  Thu Nov 24 05:51:10 2011
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 23:51:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rather perplexing set of problems with a new
 2.1.14vhost install on a DirectAdmin box -- and I'm new to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <87FEAC7F752E4A5FBCA77620640FEAC0@mofolaptop>
References: <2CCE206B603C4AB9ADAFB74755105349@mofolaptop>
	<PC1952011112318280809215d76a4e1@MSAPIRO>
	<87FEAC7F752E4A5FBCA77620640FEAC0@mofolaptop>
Message-ID: <20111124045110.GP1954@inocybe.localdomain>

Christopher Woods (CustomMade) wrote:
> Wondering if part of the problems are due to the OS (CentOS)... This
> VPS came specced with it, and I went along with the choice. Little
> was I aware of the development approach with regards to new and
> shiny... (this is your cue to all have a chuckle at my expense ;-)
> My installed Python is 2.4; python-devel was installed new today -
> but, of course, is still old.

The EPEL repository for RHEL/CentOS has a python26 package which might
be of use to you.  You'd need to tell your mailman build to use
/usr/bin/python26 for that, but I think it should be workable.

-- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the
matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker.
    -- Mikhail Bakunin

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From egon at frerich.eu  Thu Nov 24 11:18:20 2011
From: egon at frerich.eu (Egon Frerich)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 11:18:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server changing
Message-ID: <4ECE19EC.8050807@frerich.eu>


I put mailing lists to a new server and changed in
/etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_URL_HOST.

But the List Administration points under 'Go to list archives' to the
old server.

The posted mails contain in List-Unsubscribe, List-Archive and
List-Subscribe the old server address.

What should I do?

Egon


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From elmailpersonal at gmail.com  Thu Nov 24 12:56:16 2011
From: elmailpersonal at gmail.com (deconya)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:56:16 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] the list not send messages of awaiting approval to
	admin
Message-ID: <CAPsDG5FX+Go0giHAEtUrXPQWc60UpD4EhTv4LBhZ-qezuk+yRA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi

I have a list with moderation bit active, but when someone subscribers
send and email, mailman not sends advising mail to moderators. Where I
can start to check the problem?

Thanks

From malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk  Thu Nov 24 13:24:54 2011
From: malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk (Malcolm Austen)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:24:54 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] the list not send messages of awaiting approval
 to admin
In-Reply-To: <CAPsDG5FX+Go0giHAEtUrXPQWc60UpD4EhTv4LBhZ-qezuk+yRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPsDG5FX+Go0giHAEtUrXPQWc60UpD4EhTv4LBhZ-qezuk+yRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.v5f93sbyg14ka7@oucs-hue.oucs.ox.ac.uk>

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 11:56:16 -0000, deconya <elmailpersonal at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> I have a list with moderation bit active, but when someone subscribers
> send and email, mailman not sends advising mail to moderators. Where I
> can start to check the problem?

It is documented that, under emergency moderation, only the daily notice  
of held posts is sent to the moderators - they don't get an email notice  
for every single post.

= Malcolm.

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 24 18:22:57 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:22:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server changing
In-Reply-To: <4ECE19EC.8050807@frerich.eu>
Message-ID: <PC195201111240922570625d7337f2a@MSAPIRO>

Egon Frerich wrote:
>
>
>I put mailing lists to a new server and changed in
>/etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_URL_HOST.
>
>But the List Administration points under 'Go to list archives' to the
>old server.
>
>The posted mails contain in List-Unsubscribe, List-Archive and
>List-Subscribe the old server address.
>
>What should I do?


Run fix_url.

See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 24 18:35:02 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:35:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] the list not send messages of awaiting
	approvalto admin
In-Reply-To: <op.v5f93sbyg14ka7@oucs-hue.oucs.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <PC195201111240935020921fb73bcdb@MSAPIRO>

Malcolm Austen wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 11:56:16 -0000, deconya <elmailpersonal at gmail.com>  
>wrote:
>
>> I have a list with moderation bit active, but when someone subscribers
>> send and email, mailman not sends advising mail to moderators. Where I
>> can start to check the problem?
>
>It is documented that, under emergency moderation, only the daily notice  
>of held posts is sent to the moderators - they don't get an email notice  
>for every single post.


The above is correct and is the answer if by "moderation bit active"
you mean you set emergency (Emergency moderation of all list traffic.)
to Yes.

On the other hand, if you moderate users the 'correct' way by setting
each user's mod bit on (see Membership Management... -> Membership
List -> Additional Member Tasks) and setting Privacy options... ->
Sender filters -> default_member_moderation to Yes to moderate new
members by default, then the moderators will get notices of held posts
as long as General Options -> admin_immed_notify is Yes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From tinker123 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 26 17:49:48 2011
From: tinker123 at gmail.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:49:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What causes an "Uncaught bounce notification" ?
Message-ID: <CACK26nv5yDXYG9kzppaHSO7sJN9i2hBuSkmFU2e_mzz0GaMPGA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi;

I have a subscriber who successfully posts to my GNUMailman list ( 2.1.13 ).

However, every once in a while one of her emails gets bounced to me,
the listowner, as an "Uncaught bounce notification".

How can I figure out what she is doing to cause this?

Thanks much in advance for any info

Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov 26 18:36:47 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 09:36:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What causes an "Uncaught bounce notification" ?
In-Reply-To: <CACK26nv5yDXYG9kzppaHSO7sJN9i2hBuSkmFU2e_mzz0GaMPGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952011112609364708597fcb720a@MSAPIRO>

Steve wrote:
>
>I have a subscriber who successfully posts to my GNUMailman list ( 2.1.13 ).
>
>However, every once in a while one of her emails gets bounced to me,
>the listowner, as an "Uncaught bounce notification".
>
>How can I figure out what she is doing to cause this?


The short answer is she sent the mail to LISTNAME-bounces at ... instead
of LISTNAME at ...

This probably happens because she is using an MUA (maybe MS Outlook)
that replies to the Sender: header address. The FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/RoA9> may be helpful.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov 26 22:11:45 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 13:11:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rather perplexing set of problems with a new
	2.1.14vhost install on a DirectAdmin box -- and I'm new to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <87FEAC7F752E4A5FBCA77620640FEAC0@mofolaptop>
Message-ID: <PC195201111261311450281cb7a8c06@MSAPIRO>

Christopher Woods (CustomMade) wrote:
>I was also, as you
>say, angling towards a setup where I could reuse list names -- or rather,
>not have to worry about clashes (long run, they'll be used for various promo
>and mailout lists to industry contacts which may well be the same). This VPS
>is a shared hosting environment too so I didn't think I could justify
>potentially denying another user a list name if it was common. However, if
>things just aren't working I see no reason in swimming through treacle until
>I have a slightly better understanding of Mailman's innards :-)


As Stephen said, this is a perfectly good reason for wanting to use the
vhosts branch.

I have just updated it by merging the head of the 2.1 branch. This will
remove the Python 2.5 dependency. I also rewrote a section of the
bin/newlist help which I hope will make its use more clear.

The create CGI as it exists will only create old style, non-virtual
host lists. If you want to pursue this, I can fix it or I may just go
ahead if it's not complex.


>Wondering if part of the problems are due to the OS (CentOS)... 


I run a bleeding edge Mailman in production on a Centos 5 server. It's
fairly straightforward. I have installed Python 2.6.5 from source
along side the Centos Python 2.4.3 package. You have to leave the
Centos package Python as the default or several things, most notably
yum, break badly, but you can configure Mailman to use the Python 2.6
installation and it all works fine.

But, as I said, the latest vhost branch should work with Python 2.4.


[...]
>>From quickly skimreading the SO thread, it seems building python26 from
>source will be the simplest way... but will Mailman work fine if 2.6 is
>installed to coexist with 2.4 (which I'm reading is a dependency for things
>like yum?)


Yes, Mailman should work fine with 2.6 coexisting with 2.4, and yes,
the yum dependency is the deal breaker for just going to Python 2.6
for everything.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov 27 01:22:20 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:22:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rather perplexing set of problems with a new
 2.1.14vhost install on a DirectAdmin box -- and I'm new to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <PC1952011112318280809215d76a4e1@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC1952011112318280809215d76a4e1@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4ED182BC.5060507@msapiro.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Christopher Woods \(CustomMade\) wrote:
> 
>>After checking DNS had refreshed, I could bring up the mailman/listinfo
>>welcome page for all of the domains configured. Having created the mailman
>>list as part of the installation at the command prompt without issue, and
>>received the email as expected, I went straight to the
>>http://lists.domain1.tld virtualhost and set up a new list named
>>'announce-test' via "http://lists.domain1.tld/mailman/create". This seemed
>>to work ok and threw no errors; however when clicking on the list from the
>>success page, I just got "No such list announce-test at domain1.tld". NB that
>>this error message also shows "domain1.tld" and not "lists.domain1.tld" as
>>expected, so it looks like it's ignored the subdomain -- why, I do not know.
> 
> 
> I don't offhand know either, but I think that the create CGI may not
> work in this branch. It may be that you have to create all lists with
> bin/newlist, and it too is unintuitive in that you need to both
> specify the listname as a fully qualified posting address and specify
> the --urlhost= option.


As I indicated in a prior post, I've tried to clarify the help in
bin/newlist.

I've now fixed the create CGI so it should properly create vhost lists
and non-vhost lists based on comparing the host portion of the invoking
URL with DEFAULT_URL_HOST. If unequal, the list will be created as a
vhost list using the web host from the URL and the corresponding email
host from add_virtualhost.

I don't understand why the domain in the "no such list" message was
"domain1.tld" and not "lists.domain1.tld" unless you had

add_virtualhost('lists.domain1.tld')

rather than

add_virtualhost('lists.domain1.tld', 'lists.domain1.tld')

The former syntax strips the first piece from the web host to get the
email host and thus is equivalent to

add_virtualhost('lists.domain1.tld', 'domain1.tld')

But, there may be other reasons I'm not aware of.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From alex at resilientgamers.us  Sun Nov 27 01:05:21 2011
From: alex at resilientgamers.us (Alex Schittko)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 00:05:21 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] cgi-bin downloading, not running
Message-ID: <COL120-W35887658362D8BC22CEF7DBACD0@phx.gbl>



Hey mailman list,

I'm using FreeBSD 8
So I'm following this tutorial: http://www.purplehat.org/?page_id=18 to set up Mailman with Postfix
I installed mailman via ports, but after I configured it in apache and did everything in the tutorial, I go to http://lists.zweis.us/mailman/listinfo and it tries to download the page, instead of excecuting?  Can someone guide me in the direction to fix this?

I have already added the ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin line in it's virtualhost on apache

Much appreciated!
 		 	   		  

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Nov 27 17:15:45 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 08:15:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] cgi-bin downloading, not running
In-Reply-To: <COL120-W35887658362D8BC22CEF7DBACD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <PC195201111270815450234bef3a217@MSAPIRO>

Alex Schittko wrote:
>
>I'm using FreeBSD 8
>So I'm following this tutorial: http://www.purplehat.org/?page_id=18 to set up Mailman with Postfix
>I installed mailman via ports, but after I configured it in apache and did everything in the tutorial, I go to http://lists.zweis.us/mailman/listinfo and it tries to download the page, instead of excecuting?  Can someone guide me in the direction to fix this?
>
>I have already added the ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin line in it's virtualhost on apache


Please see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD>.

Your immediate issue is an Apache question. The ScriptAlias you quote
should be what you need, but there is apparently something else in
your Apache config that is interfering with it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From toneal at suffolk.edu  Mon Nov 28 21:17:11 2011
From: toneal at suffolk.edu (Tim O'Neal)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 20:17:11 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /mailman/listinfo page URL gets changed to
 /mailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomai
Message-ID: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B798@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>

Colleagues,

If I browse to the URL   http://mylistserver/mailman/listinfo  I get a page not found and the URL gets rewritten into

http://mylistserver/mailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfo

If I add the trailing slash in my browser as follows    http://mylistserver/mailman/listinfo/       I get the listinfo page.

I've tried to work around this by in my Apache config to do

Alias  /mailman/listinfo                /myDocumentRoot/mailman/listinfo/           but this only gives me the above result.

Also, I've tried using mod_rewrite to add the trailing slash onto the URL, but that still gives me the same result.

Anybody have any suggestions???

Not Found

The requested URL /mailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfo was not found on this server.
TIA!

Tim




From ges+lists at wingfoot.org  Mon Nov 28 21:31:02 2011
From: ges+lists at wingfoot.org (Glenn Sieb)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:31:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /mailman/listinfo page URL gets changed to
	/mailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomai
In-Reply-To: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B798@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>
References: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B798@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>
Message-ID: <4ED3EF86.8090308@wingfoot.org>

Have you tried this? (First delete that Alias, it's not going to work.)

ScriptAlias /mailman/ "/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/"

(Substitute your $DOCROOT for /usr/local/ above...)

Best,
--Glenn

From toneal at suffolk.edu  Mon Nov 28 21:59:26 2011
From: toneal at suffolk.edu (Tim O'Neal)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 20:59:26 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /mailman/listinfo page URL gets changed
	to	/mailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/list...
In-Reply-To: <4ED3EF86.8090308@wingfoot.org>
References: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B798@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>
	<4ED3EF86.8090308@wingfoot.org>
Message-ID: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B815@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>

Glenn,

Thanks for the suggestion.  I think what you're suggesting is that I enclose the /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/  in quotes???

In any case, it didn't work and gave me the same results.

Here are my aliases, (BTW, my listserver is behind a firewall).

    Alias /pipermail/ /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/archives/public/
    Alias /icons/ /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/icons/
    ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin/
    ScriptAlias /mailman/ /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin/

Everything else in the cgi-bin directory seems to work properly.

Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+toneal=suffolk.edu at python.org [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+toneal=suffolk.edu at python.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Sieb
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 3:31 PM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] /mailman/listinfo page URL gets changed to /mailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/list...

Have you tried this? (First delete that Alias, it's not going to work.)

ScriptAlias /mailman/ "/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/"

(Substitute your $DOCROOT for /usr/local/ above...)

Best,
--Glenn
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/toneal%40suffolk.edu

From ges+lists at wingfoot.org  Mon Nov 28 22:23:04 2011
From: ges+lists at wingfoot.org (Glenn Sieb)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:23:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /mailman/listinfo page URL gets changed to
	/mailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/list...
In-Reply-To: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B815@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>
References: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B798@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>
	<4ED3EF86.8090308@wingfoot.org>
	<48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B815@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>
Message-ID: <4ED3FBB8.7070408@wingfoot.org>

On 11/28/11 3:59 PM, Tim O'Neal wrote:
> In any case, it didn't work and gave me the same results.
> 
> Here are my aliases, (BTW, my listserver is behind a firewall).
> 
> Alias /pipermail/
> /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/archives/public/ Alias /icons/
> /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/icons/ ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/
> /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin/ ScriptAlias /mailman/
> /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin/


Well, the problem here is that your ScriptAlias for /mailman/ needs to
point to *mailman's* cgi-bin directory.

In FreeBSD, on my system, for example, it is where I showed you..
/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/

So unless mailman's cgi-bin directory is in
/web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin.....

Best,
--Glenn

From toneal at suffolk.edu  Mon Nov 28 23:11:27 2011
From: toneal at suffolk.edu (Tim O'Neal)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:11:27 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /mailman/listinfo page URL gets changed to
 /mailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/list...
In-Reply-To: <4ED3FBB8.7070408@wingfoot.org>
References: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B798@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>
	<4ED3EF86.8090308@wingfoot.org>
	<48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B815@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>
	<4ED3FBB8.7070408@wingfoot.org>
Message-ID: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B863@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>

Glenn,

Thanks for the suggestions.  

Yes, mailman's cgi-bin directory is 
/web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin/

I worked around this issue by doing the following:

ErrorDocument 404 /mailman/listinfo/

This gave me the effect that I wanted ---- but I know that it's ugly.  Maybe when I have nothing else to do, I'll figure this all out.  But until  then ....

Many thanks,

Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Sieb [mailto:ges+lists at wingfoot.org] 
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 4:23 PM
To: Tim O'Neal
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] /mailman/listinfo page URL gets changed to /mailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/list...

On 11/28/11 3:59 PM, Tim O'Neal wrote:
> In any case, it didn't work and gave me the same results.
> 
> Here are my aliases, (BTW, my listserver is behind a firewall).
> 
> Alias /pipermail/
> /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/archives/public/ Alias /icons/
> /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/icons/ ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/
> /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin/ ScriptAlias /mailman/
> /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin/


Well, the problem here is that your ScriptAlias for /mailman/ needs to
point to *mailman's* cgi-bin directory.

In FreeBSD, on my system, for example, it is where I showed you..
/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/

So unless mailman's cgi-bin directory is in
/web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin.....

Best,
--Glenn

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 29 01:42:29 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:42:29 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /mailman/listinfo page URL gets
	changedto	/mailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/listinfomailman/list...
In-Reply-To: <48C39064A3B57D41B32331ADD13B90440B28B815@SRV-EXCH-MB03.adm.suffolk.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1952011112816422909682c0969a5@MSAPIRO>

Tim O'Neal wrote:
>
>Thanks for the suggestion.  I think what you're suggesting is that I enclose the /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/  in quotes???
>
>In any case, it didn't work and gave me the same results.


It is normally recommended to quote it, but I think it only matters if
there are 'funny' characters in the path.


>Here are my aliases, (BTW, my listserver is behind a firewall).
>
>    Alias /pipermail/ /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/archives/public/
>    Alias /icons/ /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/icons/
>    ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin/
>    ScriptAlias /mailman/ /web/lists.suffolk.edu/DocumentRoot/cgi-bin/


This seems OK.


>Everything else in the cgi-bin directory seems to work properly.


Do you mean you can go to  http://www.example.com/mailman/admin
(without a trailing slash) and it works and gives you the admin
overview page?

If so, I think there must be something else in your Apache config.
 
-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From parturi at bairesweb.com  Tue Nov 29 21:49:14 2011
From: parturi at bairesweb.com (Pablo Arturi)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 17:49:14 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman + DKIM
Message-ID: <94B07828F37B429C8B21E4578838A5A9@pla>

Hello everyone.

I have to implement DKIM for every outgoing message from the list. No need for verifying signatures, I would only need to sign the outgoing messages.

Do you know of any howto or docs where should I start reading about it?

Thank you,

 
Pablo Lionel Arturi
Maip? 464 - 1? B - 1006 Capital Federal
Ciudad Aut?noma de Buenos Aires
+5411 5218 4829
parturi at bairesweb.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 29 22:39:14 2011
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:39:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman + DKIM
In-Reply-To: <94B07828F37B429C8B21E4578838A5A9@pla>
Message-ID: <PC195201111291339140515e337e7d1@MSAPIRO>

Pablo Arturi wrote:
>
>I have to implement DKIM for every outgoing message from the list. No
>need for verifying signatures, I would only need to sign the outgoing
>messages.
>
>Do you know of any howto or docs where should I start reading about it?


You would do this in your MTA. How to do it is specific to your MTA.
See, e.g. <http://www.dkim.org/deploy/index.html>.

If you wish to remove the DKIM signatures from signed incoming mail to
Mailman, you can put

REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = Yes

in mm_cfg.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Edward.Harvey at analog.com  Wed Nov 30 18:29:59 2011
From: Edward.Harvey at analog.com (Harvey, Edward)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:29:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderators not getting notifications
Message-ID: <F00F508EFFCD504083CCE63A64B121B5D98C794F5A@NWD2CMBX1.ad.analog.com>

Ideally, whenever there is any pending moderator request (too many recipients, post by non-member, etc) I would like the moderator to be immediately notified.  I have done my best to configure it this way, but it's not working, and I'm not sure what to try next.

I have a moderator address entered in both the "owner" and "moderator" fields.  I have  "admin_immed_notify" = yes.  I confirmed it's a valid email address by sending test mail to it.

The only thing I can think of is the From address.  If it's sending From an invalid name or something, then the recipient spam filter might be rejecting it based on invalid reverse DNS or SPF or something.  So ... How can I know From what address the moderator requests will be sent?

And any other ideas to figure out what's going wrong?

Thanks...