From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun  1 04:11:43 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 19:11:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Pending messages
In-Reply-To: <CAGMenWv9SACVYse_haEpgi5aK6UhTmE=MZtbLFhgc-jBTbUqHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGMenWsnpk_LUL1zjc3wJ8iOtx+KeQowpgy-KorSRhkWUL6uBg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FC789FD.50203@msapiro.net>
	<CAGMenWv9SACVYse_haEpgi5aK6UhTmE=MZtbLFhgc-jBTbUqHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FC824DF.5070009@msapiro.net>

On 5/31/2012 8:29 AM, Tomislav Lueti? wrote:
> Not to my knowledge, but the server itself wasn't set up by me. I got
> handed somebody else's mess.
> a couple more things that might help; permissions check out, there was
> no upgrading or moving involved, if I try to admin a message from a
> single message view I get send back to pending requests overview page.
> and wouldn't URL redirect screw up all changes I try to make? I can
> normally change settings for lists, it's just the messages that are
> misbehaving.


A redirect may or may not affect the admin as well as the admindb
interface. It depends on the specifics of the web server configuration.

You need to do two things:

1) View the source of an admindb page and note the action= URL in the
form tag. If it is a relative URL, prepend the initial portion of the
URL in the browser's address bar to get an absolute URL.

2) Look at the web server's configuration and figure out what it does to
process that URL and if it just does the POST or if it redirects or
rewrites it somehow.

Somebody else's mess or not, someone is going to have to figure out what
the web server is doing with these requests.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun  1 08:59:24 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 23:59:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalization issue
In-Reply-To: <33941589.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <33941589.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <4FC8684C.2060402@msapiro.net>

On 5/31/2012 2:49 PM, wilby wrote:
> 

> 1. There must be a way to get the footer to always show in the message, is
> there?


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/84A9>.


> 2. Maybe there is an easier way to get the "delivered_to" info to appear
> somewhere in my messages.


If you can get the ISP to enable VERP delivery, the address sent to is
in the envelope sender and the Sender: and Errors-To: headers of the
message in the form <LISTNAME-bounces+user=users.domain at example.com>.


> 3. Maybe there is an entirely better way to do what I need, Help!


The Received: headers of the message may contain something like

Received: from mail.python.org (mail.python.org [82.94.164.166])
	(using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by sbh16.songbird.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792686900C6
	for <mark at msapiro.net>; Thu, 31 May 2012 23:43:50 -0700 (PDT)

where the "for <mark at msapiro.net>" indicates the recipient. This is
dependent on the MTAs that the message passes through between Mailman
and the recipient.


> Looking further, I see that if the email from the MM server I use is "text"
> then the "delivered to" dies appear in the footer. If the message is
> delivered in what looks like "rich text" then the footers are hidden,
> attachments, or missing.


Yes. This is discussed in the above referenced FAQ. If the message after
content filtering is other than a single plain text part, the footer
will be added as a separate MIME part. Many MUAs will display this
properly in line, but others will call it an attachment. The footer part
will always be somewhere in the raw message and if the MUA hides it
completely (smartphone clients in particular may do this), the MUA is
broken.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From joab at inbox.com  Fri Jun  1 22:38:24 2012
From: joab at inbox.com (wilby)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 13:38:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalization issue
In-Reply-To: <4FC8684C.2060402@msapiro.net>
References: <33941589.post@talk.nabble.com> <4FC8684C.2060402@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <33947197.post@talk.nabble.com>


Thank you for the information.  Wilby


On 5/31/2012 2:49 PM, wilby wrote:
> 

> 1. There must be a way to get the footer to always show in the message, is
> there?



-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Personalization-issue-tp33941589p33947197.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From mehdi.mortezai at csueastbay.edu  Fri Jun  1 22:01:41 2012
From: mehdi.mortezai at csueastbay.edu (Mehdi Mortezai)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 13:01:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help: how to extract a list's description using a
 bash or Python script (Mailman version 2.1.9)
In-Reply-To: <loom.20120525T044216-479@post.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20120525T023813-146@post.gmane.org>
	<loom.20120525T044216-479@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <61cc8e296445fdb9a6b2e80d1a250557@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All,

I am new to your the Mailman Users' group. I manage Mailman 2.1.9 (a VM
Red Hat Enterprise 5 system) for my organization but I am new to Mailman
and don't know much about Python scripting.

I need to generate a monthly report on all my mailing lists that includes
each list's name, description, admin, and members.  I have come up with a
bash script using some Python scripts for Mailman that generates most of
the reporting but could not find a script or a way to extract a list's
description.

Any hint/help for pointing out how to extract the description of any list
via a bash script will be very much appreciated.

Thanks very much for your input.

Mehdi

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  2 08:20:21 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 23:20:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help: how to extract a list's description using
	abash or Python script (Mailman version 2.1.9)
In-Reply-To: <61cc8e296445fdb9a6b2e80d1a250557@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201206012320210312c2dc5bcd@MSAPIRO>

Mehdi Mortezai wrote:
>
>I need to generate a monthly report on all my mailing lists that includes
>each list's name, description, admin, and members.  I have come up with a
>bash script using some Python scripts for Mailman that generates most of
>the reporting but could not find a script or a way to extract a list's
>description.


Mailman's bin/list_lists produces a list of all the installations list
names and descriptions.


>Any hint/help for pointing out how to extract the description of any list
>via a bash script will be very much appreciated.


#!/bin/bash
# assume $1 is the list name
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_lists | grep -i " $1 " |\
 sed -r "s/\s*\S+ - //"


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From harewood at xs4all.nl  Sun Jun  3 08:09:58 2012
From: harewood at xs4all.nl (H)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 08:09:58 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] looking for correct doc for configure
Message-ID: <1338703799.2481.8.camel@Conwy.ReuserNET.nl>


All, 

Pretty new to Mailman, trying to install it and looking for the correct
documentation to go with mailman-3.0.0b1

After unpacking that package, there is supposed to be configure script
which is not there, or, I have to create it but it is not explained how.
Cannot find any instruction where to find or how to create configure.

Tried to install via YUM, but then, the directory arrangement is
different and the manual does not take that into account. 

Also, the manual in 6.3.2. describes a contrib directory in the package,
which is not there either. 

Any tips here?




H.

From harewood at xs4all.nl  Sun Jun  3 08:14:52 2012
From: harewood at xs4all.nl (H)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 08:14:52 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] More missing files from installation
Message-ID: <1338704092.2481.11.camel@Conwy.ReuserNET.nl>



Further to my previous mail, the data/sitelist.cfg which is supposed to
have a list template, cannot be found either. Neither the installation
directory nor the other directories have a file like that. I used GREP
to search for it, not there. The manual does not explain how to get it.

Anybody having any tips here? 



H.

From harewood at xs4all.nl  Sun Jun  3 08:59:39 2012
From: harewood at xs4all.nl (H)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 08:59:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A low level failure?
Message-ID: <1338706779.2481.14.camel@Conwy.ReuserNET.nl>


While trying to run the 'create' script from the webbrowser after
configuring as much as possible, and spending all morning on it: 

----
We're sorry, we hit a bug!
 Mailman experienced a very low level failure and could not even
generate a useful traceback for you. Please report this to the Mailman
administrator at this site.
----

There you go. I think I will quit at this point. Enough wasting time. 



H.



From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Sun Jun  3 21:16:10 2012
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:16:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] looking for correct doc for configure
In-Reply-To: <1338703799.2481.8.camel@Conwy.ReuserNET.nl>
References: <1338703799.2481.8.camel@Conwy.ReuserNET.nl>
Message-ID: <E69A679A-7BD1-46CC-8BB9-C9F044428CB9@stonejongleux.com>


On Jun 3, 2012, at 1:09 AM, H wrote:

> 
> All, 
> 
> Pretty new to Mailman, trying to install it and looking for the correct
> documentation to go with mailman-3.0.0b1


MHO, if you're new to Mailman, you should not be looking at 3.0 yet. 3.0.0b1 is the first beta release of the largely re-architected Mailman 3. Stick to the latest Mailman 2.1 production release (2.1.14) which is well documented, debugged, and supported.

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/




From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun  4 03:43:57 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 18:43:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] More missing files from installation
In-Reply-To: <1338704092.2481.11.camel@Conwy.ReuserNET.nl>
Message-ID: <PC1952012060318435702659e6a7182@MSAPIRO>

H <harewood at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>Further to my previous mail, the data/sitelist.cfg which is supposed to
>have a list template, cannot be found either. Neither the installation
>directory nor the other directories have a file like that. I used GREP
>to search for it, not there. The manual does not explain how to get it.


I think you're reading Mailman 2.1 documentation after downloading
Mailman 3. data/sitelist.cfg is a Mailman 2.1 file. It doesn't exist
in Mailman 3.

As Larry Stone said, if your goal is just a working Mailman
installation, either install a vendor package via Yum or whatever and
follow its docs, or download and install Mailman 2.1.15rc1 from
<https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1> following the manual in the
tarball or at <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/index.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From harewood at xs4all.nl  Mon Jun  4 07:25:59 2012
From: harewood at xs4all.nl (H)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 07:25:59 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] maliman config problems
Message-ID: <1338787560.2481.44.camel@Conwy.ReuserNET.nl>

Thanks all for the advice. Downloaded version 2.1 which compiles like a
charm. Will give it a second go, again reading through and following the
docs.


H.





From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Mon Jun  4 13:30:51 2012
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:30:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] looking for correct doc for configure
In-Reply-To: <E69A679A-7BD1-46CC-8BB9-C9F044428CB9@stonejongleux.com>
References: <1338703799.2481.8.camel@Conwy.ReuserNET.nl>
	<E69A679A-7BD1-46CC-8BB9-C9F044428CB9@stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <4BD9C81D-47E1-497F-82DC-2CAA8DCAA5C7@stonejongleux.com>


On Jun 3, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Larry Stone wrote:

> 
> On Jun 3, 2012, at 1:09 AM, H wrote:
> 
>> 
>> All, 
>> 
>> Pretty new to Mailman, trying to install it and looking for the correct
>> documentation to go with mailman-3.0.0b1
> 
> 
> MHO, if you're new to Mailman, you should not be looking at 3.0 yet. 3.0.0b1 is the first beta release of the largely re-architected Mailman 3. Stick to the latest Mailman 2.1 production release (2.1.14) which is well documented, debugged, and supported.


As you (the OP) found, 2.1.x installs and works very well. I think one thing worth adding is that in the Unix world, most of the public software such as Mailman tends to follow traditional versioning. Unlike the PC world where it seems somewhat common to call something a beta yet tell the users that it's ready to go (and then stay in "perpetual beta"), a beta here means that it's still being debugged. Until a "release candidate" version is put up, I would not use Mailman 3 unless I want to be a tester. For the 2.1.x tree, I believe recent release candidates have gone to the production version without change other than finishing the documentation.

In short, don't be fooled by the PC world and perpetual betas. Mark will let us know when Mailman 3 is ready to use in a production environment.

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/




From mehdi.mortezai at csueastbay.edu  Mon Jun  4 18:31:57 2012
From: mehdi.mortezai at csueastbay.edu (Mehdi Mortezai)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:31:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help: how to extract a list's description using
 abash or Python script (Mailman version 2.1.9)
In-Reply-To: <PC195201206012320210312c2dc5bcd@MSAPIRO>
References: <61cc8e296445fdb9a6b2e80d1a250557@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC195201206012320210312c2dc5bcd@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <29f3b9a61545feb2840886c902d7702d@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks much for the code, Mark!

Mehdi


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:20 PM
To: Mehdi Mortezai; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Help: how to extract a list's description
using abash or Python script (Mailman version 2.1.9)

Mehdi Mortezai wrote:
>
>I need to generate a monthly report on all my mailing lists that
>includes each list's name, description, admin, and members.  I have
>come up with a bash script using some Python scripts for Mailman that
>generates most of the reporting but could not find a script or a way to
>extract a list's description.


Mailman's bin/list_lists produces a list of all the installations list
names and descriptions.


>Any hint/help for pointing out how to extract the description of any
>list via a bash script will be very much appreciated.


#!/bin/bash
# assume $1 is the list name
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_lists | grep -i " $1 " |\  sed -r "s/\s*\S+ -
//"


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From ma.76 at osu.edu  Mon Jun  4 20:56:30 2012
From: ma.76 at osu.edu (Ma, Yuan)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 18:56:30 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is there a limit as to the number of character for
 the name of a mailing list?
Message-ID: <3D7D185549C2E048814EC5CF34B8FD67261B34@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>

Hi,


1.      Is there a limit as to the number of character one can put in for the name of a mailing list?

2.      Is there a limit as to the number of character one can put in for a member or subscriber of a mailing list?
           e.g "ColsDispatch: GILSON, Nancy; Arts Editor" ngilson at dispatch.com<mailto:ngilson at dispatch.com>


Thanks.

Yuan Ma

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun  5 04:09:26 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:09:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is there a limit as to the number of character
	forthe name of a mailing list?
In-Reply-To: <3D7D185549C2E048814EC5CF34B8FD67261B34@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <PC195201206041909260109d1321587@MSAPIRO>

Ma, Yuan wrote:
>
>
>1.      Is there a limit as to the number of character one can put in for the name of a mailing list?


Not as far as Mailman is concerned, but list names are also filenames
in the file system which your OS may limit, and listname-unsubscribe
is the local part of an email address and your MTA may limit that.


>2.      Is there a limit as to the number of character one can put in for a member or subscriber of a mailing list?
>           e.g "ColsDispatch: GILSON, Nancy; Arts Editor" <ngilson at dispatch.com>


Again, Mailman puts no limit on the length of a user's real_name
(display name) nor the length of an email address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net  Tue Jun  5 04:06:36 2012
From: dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net (Dennis Carr)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:06:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is there a limit as to the number of character
 for the name of a mailing list?
In-Reply-To: <3D7D185549C2E048814EC5CF34B8FD67261B34@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
References: <3D7D185549C2E048814EC5CF34B8FD67261B34@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206041903330.24852@bast.chez-vrolet.net>

> 1.  Is there a limit as to the number of character one can put in for 
> the name of a mailing list?

The only real limit for a list name is what seems reasonable. For 
instance, you probably do not want to have a list address such as 
"this-is-a-list-about-toad-the-wet-sprocket-playing-music-with-electric-light-orchestra-and-the-beatles-mailing-list-ml", 
because, well, that's really incredibly long - not to mention a little 
redundant. =)  (Or, in a nutshell, the list name should be descriptive, 
but short.)

As to the addresses, I know the names and addresses are semi separate - 
and as near as I can tell, it's only limited by how long an address can 
be.  I don't remember what that limit is.

-Dennis


From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Tue Jun  5 19:24:14 2012
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 13:24:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] looking for correct doc for configure
In-Reply-To: <E69A679A-7BD1-46CC-8BB9-C9F044428CB9@stonejongleux.com>
References: <1338703799.2481.8.camel@Conwy.ReuserNET.nl>
	<E69A679A-7BD1-46CC-8BB9-C9F044428CB9@stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <4FCE40BE.6060006@libertytrek.org>

On 2012-06-03 3:16 PM, Larry Stone <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com> wrote:
> On Jun 3, 2012, at 1:09 AM, H wrote:
>> Pretty new to Mailman, trying to install it and looking for the
>> correct documentation to go with mailman-3.0.0b1

> MHO, if you're new to Mailman, you should not be looking at 3.0 yet.
> 3.0.0b1 is the first beta release of the largely re-architected
> Mailman 3. Stick to the latest Mailman 2.1 production release
> (2.1.14) which is well documented, debugged, and supported.

Besides, if you *are* going to try to install/test the 3.0betas, at 
least use the dev list when reporting problems - the users list is for 
the current/stable versions...

From david at cyberpictures.net  Tue Jun  5 12:43:12 2012
From: david at cyberpictures.net (David Bradley)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:43:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Prefix of sender
Message-ID: <002101cd4308$01eed0c0$05cc7240$@cyberpictures.net>

Hello,

 

The prefix in front of each sender, can this be changed in any way, hidden
or removed?

 

For example

water-bounces at domain.net; on behalf of [name and email address of sender]

David Bradley

 


From yelnocffej at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 10:28:56 2012
From: yelnocffej at gmail.com (Jeff Conley)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 04:28:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error when editing user
Message-ID: <CA+SsG_NbtueVDwcRghW4R+_2fBeYAVTnKTWQG3PROYnKm_iZ5w@mail.gmail.com>

We've had several user's email accounts get hacked, and spam get sent
out to the entire list.

When this happened before, I would simply check their moderation bit
and could hold messages until I was assured their account was secured.

I tried to do this yesterday, and began receiving the below error
message. I also receive it when I try to set the global moderation
bit.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

----------------------------------

Not Acceptable

An appropriate representation of the requested resource
/mailman/admin/domain.com/members could not be found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to
use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Jun  6 22:31:06 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 05:31:06 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Error when editing user
In-Reply-To: <CA+SsG_NbtueVDwcRghW4R+_2fBeYAVTnKTWQG3PROYnKm_iZ5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+SsG_NbtueVDwcRghW4R+_2fBeYAVTnKTWQG3PROYnKm_iZ5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87lik09o8l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jeff Conley writes:

 > I tried to do this yesterday, and began receiving the below error
 > message. I also receive it when I try to set the global moderation
 > bit.
 > 
 > Any help would be greatly appreciated!
 > 
 > ----------------------------------
 > 
 > Not Acceptable
 > 
 > An appropriate representation of the requested resource
 > /mailman/admin/domain.com/members could not be found on this server.
 > 
 > Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to
 > use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

Your webserver is having problems; this cannot be a Mailman issue as
far as I can see.  If you don't administer the webserver, you'll need
to talk to the person who does.

From jacques at lavignotte.org  Wed Jun  6 16:50:15 2012
From: jacques at lavignotte.org (jacques)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 16:50:15 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error :: Message sent to user-owner ?
Message-ID: <4FCF6E27.2020701@lavignotte.org>

Hello,

Mailman here speaks french :))


each time I subscribe a ''user'', using mass subscription

http://melusine.eu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/argos-vienne/members/add

I get two messages via mail :


user at hotmail.fr a ?t? abonn? ? Argos-vienne avec succ?s


that is corract,


In addition I get an error message that shows that Mailman has sent a 
Welcome Message to :

user-owner at hotmail.fr


Not a big deal, things seems to be working fine, but I would like to fix 
this.


Thanks in advance,            Jacques




-- 
Pour passer au message suivant appuyez sur #

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun  7 01:56:16 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 16:56:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error :: Message sent to user-owner ?
In-Reply-To: <4FCF6E27.2020701@lavignotte.org>
References: <4FCF6E27.2020701@lavignotte.org>
Message-ID: <4FCFEE20.50909@msapiro.net>

On 6/6/2012 7:50 AM, jacques wrote:
> 
> each time I subscribe a ''user'', using mass subscription
> 
> http://melusine.eu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/argos-vienne/members/add
> 
> I get two messages via mail :
> 
> 
> user at hotmail.fr a ?t? abonn? ? Argos-vienne avec succ?s
> 
> 
> that is corract,
> 
> 
> In addition I get an error message that shows that Mailman has sent a
> Welcome Message to :
> 
> user-owner at hotmail.fr
> 
> 
> Not a big deal, things seems to be working fine, but I would like to fix
> this.


Go to the list's General Options page and find the setting for
umbrella-list and set it to No.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun  7 01:58:38 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 16:58:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Prefix of sender
In-Reply-To: <002101cd4308$01eed0c0$05cc7240$@cyberpictures.net>
References: <002101cd4308$01eed0c0$05cc7240$@cyberpictures.net>
Message-ID: <4FCFEEAE.4070404@msapiro.net>

On 6/5/2012 3:43 AM, David Bradley wrote:
> 
> For example
> 
> water-bounces at domain.net; on behalf of [name and email address of sender]


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/RoA9>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From terry at fiteyes.com  Thu Jun  7 17:23:44 2012
From: terry at fiteyes.com (Terry Earley)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 09:23:44 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Clearing Bounce Scores Globally
Message-ID: <CAL3ZyvDp4nxiG_ZP09oa1OPa3KArst+jNUkkAiR+1tAAHUP_dQ@mail.gmail.com>

We need to clear/reset bounce stats for Yahoo members on our list. we
modified Mark Sapiro's script at:
http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/reset_bounce.py
to modify only Yahoo email addresses, but it cleared only 2 that had been
bouncing. That squares with the comment at top:

> """Enable delivery for all bouncing members.
>

is there a way to make it clear bounce stats for all (in this case Yahoo)
to avoid these members from going over threshold? If not, we could run the
script after we get the admin notice that they are set to nomail for
bounces.

-- 
Terry Earley
terry at fiteyes.com

From bsfinkel at att.net  Thu Jun  7 17:49:47 2012
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S, Finkel)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 10:49:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Clearing Bounce Scores Globally
In-Reply-To: <CAL3ZyvDp4nxiG_ZP09oa1OPa3KArst+jNUkkAiR+1tAAHUP_dQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvDp4nxiG_ZP09oa1OPa3KArst+jNUkkAiR+1tAAHUP_dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD0CD9B.4030006@att.net>

On 6/7/2012 10:23 AM, Terry Earley wrote:
> We need to clear/reset bounce stats for Yahoo members on our list. we
> modified Mark Sapiro's script at:
> http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/reset_bounce.py
> to modify only Yahoo email addresses, but it cleared only 2 that had been
> bouncing. That squares with the comment at top:
>
>> """Enable delivery for all bouncing members.
>>
> is there a way to make it clear bounce stats for all (in this case Yahoo)
> to avoid these members from going over threshold? If not, we could run the
> script after we get the admin notice that they are set to nomail for
> bounces.
>
If I understand what you want, I believe you change:

         if mlist.getDeliveryStatus(member) == MemberAdaptor.BYBOUNCE:
             mlist.setDeliveryStatus(member, MemberAdaptor.ENABLED)
             count += 1
by removing the "if" line and un-indenting the next two lines.  This will
set all addresses in the domain to ENABLED.  But, I believe, this will no do
exactly what you want, because you are not resetting the bounce score.
If a yahoo.com subscriber has a bounce score of 4, then setting

      MemberAdaptor,ENABLED

will be resetting the value to what it already is, and the next bounce
will (if the bounce score trigger is the default 5.0) will set BYBOUNCE.
I have not looked at the code to see if setting ENABLED also resets
the bounce score back to 0.
--Barry Finkel



From dave at fiteyes.com  Thu Jun  7 18:15:39 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (Dave (FitEyes))
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 12:15:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Clearing Bounce Scores Globally
In-Reply-To: <4FD0CD9B.4030006@att.net>
References: <CAL3ZyvDp4nxiG_ZP09oa1OPa3KArst+jNUkkAiR+1tAAHUP_dQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD0CD9B.4030006@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO_HRLsNH9187wJuJDOMWb+gA6XyAnqO76Fvay5__RGeKLdt9g@mail.gmail.com>

How about something like this code?

"""
Clear (erase) bounce statistics (scores) for all members (intended to be
used with the optional domain parameter only)
Modified from original reset_bounce.py by Mark Sapiro.

Save as bin/clear_bounce_info.py

Run via

   bin/withlist -r clear_bounce_info <listname> [options]
   bin/withlist -r clear_bounce_info <listname> --domain=example.com--verbose

or

   bin/withlist -a -r clear_bounce_info -- [options]

to do all lists.


Options:
    -d domain
    --domain=domain
        Only reset those users with addresses in domain.

    -v
    --verbose
        Print line for each member changed and a summary with total number
of users reset.
"""

import sys
import getopt

from Mailman import MemberAdaptor

def usage(code, msg=''):
    if code:
        fd = sys.stderr
    else:
        fd = sys.stdout
    print >> fd, __doc__
    if msg:
        print >> fd, msg
    sys.exit(code)

def clear_bounce_info(mlist, *args):

    try:
        opts, args = getopt.getopt(args, 'd:v', ['domain=', 'verbose'])
    except getopt.error, msg:
        usage(1, msg)

    verbose = 0
    domain = None
    for opt, arg in opts:
        if opt in ('-d', '--domain'):
            domain = arg.lower()
        elif opt in ('-v', '--verbose'):
            verbose = 1

    if not mlist.Locked():
        mlist.Lock()
    count = 0
    for member in mlist.getMembers():
        if domain and not member.endswith(domain):
            continue
        del mlist.bounce_info[member]
        count += 1
        if verbose:
            print 'list: %s - bounce info deleted for %s' %
(mlist.internal_name(), member)
    mlist.Save()
    mlist.Unlock()
    if verbose:
        print 'List %s: Reset %d bouncing members.' % (mlist.real_name,
count)


On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Barry S, Finkel <bsfinkel at att.net> wrote:

> On 6/7/2012 10:23 AM, Terry Earley wrote:
>
>> We need to clear/reset bounce stats for Yahoo members on our list. we
>> modified Mark Sapiro's script at:
>> http://www.msapiro.net/**scripts/reset_bounce.py<http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/reset_bounce.py>
>> to modify only Yahoo email addresses, but it cleared only 2 that had been
>> bouncing. That squares with the comment at top:
>>
>>  """Enable delivery for all bouncing members.
>>>
>>>  is there a way to make it clear bounce stats for all (in this case
>> Yahoo)
>> to avoid these members from going over threshold? If not, we could run the
>> script after we get the admin notice that they are set to nomail for
>> bounces.
>>
>>  If I understand what you want, I believe you change:
>
>        if mlist.getDeliveryStatus(**member) == MemberAdaptor.BYBOUNCE:
>            mlist.setDeliveryStatus(**member, MemberAdaptor.ENABLED)
>            count += 1
> by removing the "if" line and un-indenting the next two lines.  This will
> set all addresses in the domain to ENABLED.  But, I believe, this will no
> do
> exactly what you want, because you are not resetting the bounce score.
> If a yahoo.com subscriber has a bounce score of 4, then setting
>
>     MemberAdaptor,ENABLED
>
> will be resetting the value to what it already is, and the next bounce
> will (if the bounce score trigger is the default 5.0) will set BYBOUNCE.
> I have not looked at the code to see if setting ENABLED also resets
> the bounce score back to 0.
> --Barry Finkel
>
>

From dave at fiteyes.com  Thu Jun  7 19:37:04 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (Dave (FitEyes))
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 13:37:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] understanding Yahoo's "email temporarily deferred
	due to user complaints"
Message-ID: <CAO_HRLsfmAzXLbt4QNcz6iLU0haDwQf50+n+zvkrGrQdGQ-aDQ@mail.gmail.com>

We received the following message from Yahoo. We want to understand what
happened and how to resolve it.

<somelistmember at yahoo.com>: delivery temporarily suspended: host
mta5.am0.yahoodns.net[209.191.88.254] refused to talk to me: 421 4.7.0
[TS01] Messages from <OUR_IP_ADDRESS> temporarily deferred due to user
complaints - 4.16.55.1;
see http://postmaster.yahoo.com/421-ts01.html

The message has an attachment named noname.eml (as well as a details.txt
file). We are assuming this noname.eml is the triggering email (maybe the
one that was complained about). (BTW, it was not spam.)

This first response from Yahoo listed (in details.txt) 150 out of about 600
total Yahoo members on our list. These were the email addresses that we
could not send to for 4 hours. There were 4 subsequent similar messages
(each with a noname.eml attachment) from Yahoo (so 5 in total) and now this
affects 450 out of 600 Yahoo members on our list.

Among these five different noname.eml attachments, four were the exact same
message. So there were only two different emails. Both were from the same
author -- and the message is *not* spam.

It appears that only messages from this member are problematic (but our
sample size is small -- just 2 distinct messages -- and we're doing a lot
of guessing).

I don't see any problem with the triggering message, although the
attachment (noname.eml) has incomplete headers -- our usual DKIM signature
and SPF "pass" are missing. Apparently, the attachment includes only a
subset of the headers. I'm subscribed to the list and when I view this
email (the version I received directly from the list), the full headers
show a valid DKIM signature from our list, SPF pass, and all the other
expected headers. So it appears to me that there is nothing "wrong" with
the message that triggered this action.

It appears that Yahoo suspends emails to that server for four hours.

http://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_MAIL_ML&locale=en_US&id=S
LN3434&impressions=true<http://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_MAIL_ML&locale=en_US&id=SLN3434&impressions=true>

Their solution is to "wait for four hours". That doesn't seem to be enough
in this case, as this issue has continued for two days and is growing. We
want to resolve this properly (but we don't know what action to take).

Unfortunately, our understanding of this and attempts to resolve it are
complicated by the fact that there appears to be a 5 day delay. We have
gotten these notices for the last two days, but they apparently are
triggered by a message originating from our list 5 days prior to each
notice.

The member in question has sent about six more (non-spam) messages to our
list in the last few days, so we expect more of these messages from Yahoo
in coming days. Again, we don't know how to resolve this yet.

Our proposed course of action is:

   - since our list is completely moderated, we will hold all messages from
   this single "triggering" member (until we understand the problem).
   - temporarily *remove all our valid Yahoo members from our list*.
   Unsubscribe them and leave them unsubscribed until this runs its course (a
   few more days at least) or we figure out a solution and resolve it properly.
   - maintain the list of removed but valid Yahoo members and re-subscribe
   them once we resolve this issue.
   - do not allow any new yahoo.com members to join the list until we
   resolve this issue.

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Thu Jun  7 19:48:52 2012
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:48:52 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] understanding Yahoo's "email temporarily
 deferred	due to user complaints"
In-Reply-To: <CAO_HRLsfmAzXLbt4QNcz6iLU0haDwQf50+n+zvkrGrQdGQ-aDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_HRLsfmAzXLbt4QNcz6iLU0haDwQf50+n+zvkrGrQdGQ-aDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E8BD03@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>

From: Dave (FitEyes)
Sent: 07 June 2012 18:37
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] understanding Yahoo's "email temporarily deferred due to user complaints"

>We received the following message from Yahoo. We want to understand what happened and how to resolve it.

><somelistmember at yahoo.com>: delivery temporarily suspended: host mta5.am0.yahoodns.net[209.191.88.254] refused to talk to me: 421 4.7.0 >[TS01] Messages from <OUR_IP_ADDRESS> temporarily deferred due to user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see http://postmaster.yahoo.com/421->ts01.html

>The message has an attachment named noname.eml (as well as a details.txt file). We are assuming this noname.eml is the triggering email >(maybe the one that was complained about). (BTW, it was not spam.)

Those aren't the messages that triggered this, it is likely these attachments were generated from your system which was having trouble sending to the Yahoo accounts.

Please read the documents at:

http://feedbackloop.yahoo.net/

If you are DKIM signing your messages this is good as it allows you to participate in the program, I participate in the program and get the complaints that users make (when they click the spam button in their mail client) directly.

Since signing up for the program I have no issue delivering to Yahoo addresses.

>This first response from Yahoo listed (in details.txt) 150 out of about 600 total Yahoo members on our list. These were the email addresses that >we could not send to for 4 hours. There were 4 subsequent similar messages (each with a noname.eml attachment) from Yahoo (so 5 in total) >and now this affects 450 out of 600 Yahoo members on our list.

Yep, you are being throttled so some of the messages will get through, but others will be subject to the delay.  There is no pattern on which addresses will go through or not, it depends on which order the MTA tries to deliver the message.
Andrew.

From dave at fiteyes.com  Thu Jun  7 20:04:46 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (Dave (FitEyes))
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 14:04:46 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] understanding Yahoo's "email temporarily
 deferred due to user complaints"
In-Reply-To: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E8BD03@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
References: <CAO_HRLsfmAzXLbt4QNcz6iLU0haDwQf50+n+zvkrGrQdGQ-aDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E8BD03@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
Message-ID: <CAO_HRLtpQVWFDR2HdDtfDiJr+wfdPRRVDLDwvKK_0fbUXgm8qg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Andrew. I'm going to top-post my reply because I think it may be
clearer to do so.

Yes, we are signed up for Yahoo's feedback loop (since we started the
list), but we are still having this problem. We are not on Yahoo's
whitelist (yet). Our domain is not on any of the 100+ blacklists we monitor
daily.

We do DKIM sign all messages from our list (and our SPF and rDNS records
are in place too).

We have full personalization enabled on the server, but "personalize
(nondigest)" is set to NO on this list. We could use it if it would help
with this issue.

We run postfix (on Ubuntu 12.04).

This looks relevant, but it is from 2008. Is it worth changing the postfix
config as explained below?

See from:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-February/060476.html
to: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-February/060485.html
(I didn't find any other info on this topic.)

Rick Harris wrote:
> Thanks for your reply.  I understand that ultimately it is a Yahoo problem
> and ultimately something that will never be cured.  I was hoping since I
> only run one small list that there was a "magic" switch that I could flip
> that would get past Yahoo.
>
> Rick Harris
>
>
Rick, the last time Yahoo did this was in December, and I spent a week
trying to contact someone there with a pulse,
tried getting added to their whitelist, filled in forms, read their
automated responses, etc.
After about two weeks, the deferrals went away. Until now.
Even with my postfix configured for a "slow" Yahoo, as in the following,
I still have 2600 Yahoo deferrals in my retry queue.

postfix/master.cf
yahoo     unix  -       -       n       -       1       smtp

postfix/main.cf
yahoo_destination_recipient_limit = 5            # matches Yahoo's limit
yahoo_destination_concurreny_limit = 2

postfix/transport
yahoo.ca        yahoo:
yahoo.com       yahoo:
(with subsequent 'postmap transport')



On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Andrew Hodgson <andrew at hodgsonfamily.org>wrote:

>  >The message has an attachment named noname.eml (as well as a details.txt
> file). We are assuming this noname.eml is the triggering email >(maybe the
> one that was complained about). (BTW, it was not spam.)
>
>
> Those aren't the messages that triggered this, it is likely these
> attachments were generated from your system which was having trouble
> sending to the Yahoo accounts.
>
> Please read the documents at:
>
> http://feedbackloop.yahoo.net/
>
> If you are DKIM signing your messages this is good as it allows you to
> participate in the program, I participate in the program and get the
> complaints that users make (when they click the spam button in their mail
> client) directly.
>
> Since signing up for the program I have no issue delivering to Yahoo
> addresses.
>
> >This first response from Yahoo listed (in details.txt) 150 out of about
> 600 total Yahoo members on our list. These were the email addresses that
> >we could not send to for 4 hours. There were 4 subsequent similar messages
> (each with a noname.eml attachment) from Yahoo (so 5 in total) >and now
> this affects 450 out of 600 Yahoo members on our list.
>
> Yep, you are being throttled so some of the messages will get through, but
> others will be subject to the delay.  There is no pattern on which
> addresses will go through or not, it depends on which order the MTA tries
> to deliver the message.
> Andrew.
>

From jacques at lavignotte.org  Fri Jun  8 01:19:07 2012
From: jacques at lavignotte.org (jacques)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 01:19:07 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error :: Message sent to user-owner ?
In-Reply-To: <4FCF6E27.2020701@lavignotte.org>
References: <4FCF6E27.2020701@lavignotte.org>
Message-ID: <4FD136EB.8020002@lavignotte.org>

Le 06/06/2012 16:50, jacques a ?crit :

> In addition I get an error message that shows that Mailman has sent a
> Welcome Message to :

> user-owner at hotmail.fr

Mark S. told me (privately) :

|| Go to the list's General Options page and find the setting for
|| umbrella-list and set it to No.


Set ! Will see next time,

Thanks Mark,


                   J.

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun  8 02:20:40 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 17:20:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Clearing Bounce Scores Globally
In-Reply-To: <CAO_HRLsNH9187wJuJDOMWb+gA6XyAnqO76Fvay5__RGeKLdt9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvDp4nxiG_ZP09oa1OPa3KArst+jNUkkAiR+1tAAHUP_dQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD0CD9B.4030006@att.net>
	<CAO_HRLsNH9187wJuJDOMWb+gA6XyAnqO76Fvay5__RGeKLdt9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD14558.8050309@msapiro.net>

On 6/7/2012 9:15 AM, Dave (FitEyes) wrote:
> How about something like this code?
[...]
>     for member in mlist.getMembers():
>         if domain and not member.endswith(domain):
>             continue
>         del mlist.bounce_info[member]
>         count += 1


Close, but that will throw a KeyError for any candidate member that
doesn't have bounce_info.


Instead of

        del mlist.bounce_info[member]

you want

        if member in mlist.bounce_info:
            del mlist.bounce_info[member]


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun  8 02:35:35 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:35:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] understanding Yahoo's "email
	temporarilydeferred due to user complaints"
In-Reply-To: <CAO_HRLtpQVWFDR2HdDtfDiJr+wfdPRRVDLDwvKK_0fbUXgm8qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201206071735350890b0ea6e9d@MSAPIRO>

Dave (FitEyes) wrote:
>
[...]
>We have full personalization enabled on the server, but "personalize
>(nondigest)" is set to NO on this list. We could use it if it would help
>with this issue.


Probably not. This is an issue with sending more than occasional mail
to Yahoo. It has nothing to do with Mailman per se.

Since you already have a relationship with Yahoo at least to the extent
of being signed up for their feedback loop, you might try asking them.

My own experience is from time to time Yahoo does this
throttling/greylisting to a fraction of my server's mail to Yahoo, but
ultimately all the mail is accepted by Yahoo after one or a few
retries.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Fri Jun  8 13:54:51 2012
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 13:54:51 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can I disable "no duplicates" for all members
	on a list?
Message-ID: <20120608115451.GR32614@charite.de>

How can I disable "no duplicates" for all members on a list?

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From cstalberg at web-analysts.net  Fri Jun  8 14:21:52 2012
From: cstalberg at web-analysts.net (Christian Stalberg)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 08:21:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list suddenly stopped working
Message-ID: <1339158111.12677@web-analysts.net>

   I host several lists. One of them suddenly stopped working. In poking
   around I see that the ownership had changed from mailman to apache

   [root at zarathustra mailman]# ls -la /var/lib/mailman/lists/listdude
   total 56
   drwxrwsr-x.  2 root    mailman  4096 Jun  8 07:41 .
   drwxrwsr-x. 18 root    mailman  4096 Feb 19 19:21 ..
   -rw-rw----.  1 apache  mailman 18639 Jun  8 07:41 config.pck
   -rw-rw----.  1 apache  mailman 18639 Jun  8 07:41 config.pck.last
   -rw-rw----.  1 mailman mailman   132 May 14 14:26 pending.pck
   -rw-rw-r--.  1 apache  mailman    20 Jun  8 07:41 request.pck

   first of all, how could this occur? secondly, I changed the ownership
   back to mailman but the list still does not work. what should I do next
   please?

From fred.sasse at state.mn.us  Fri Jun  8 16:24:26 2012
From: fred.sasse at state.mn.us (Sasse, Fred (DNR))
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:24:26 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list suddenly stopped working
In-Reply-To: <1339158111.12677@web-analysts.net>
References: <1339158111.12677@web-analysts.net>
Message-ID: <7E014D228D4A044EB08AE7D2DF781A6A0A7DCD@055-CH1MPN1-032.055d.mgd.msft.net>

I'm not an expert here at all, but I think you need to run the check_perms script.

Fred

-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+fred.sasse=state.mn.us at python.org [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+fred.sasse=state.mn.us at python.org] On Behalf Of Christian Stalberg
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 7:22 AM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list suddenly stopped working

   I host several lists. One of them suddenly stopped working. In poking
   around I see that the ownership had changed from mailman to apache

   [root at zarathustra mailman]# ls -la /var/lib/mailman/lists/listdude
   total 56
   drwxrwsr-x.  2 root    mailman  4096 Jun  8 07:41 .
   drwxrwsr-x. 18 root    mailman  4096 Feb 19 19:21 ..
   -rw-rw----.  1 apache  mailman 18639 Jun  8 07:41 config.pck
   -rw-rw----.  1 apache  mailman 18639 Jun  8 07:41 config.pck.last
   -rw-rw----.  1 mailman mailman   132 May 14 14:26 pending.pck
   -rw-rw-r--.  1 apache  mailman    20 Jun  8 07:41 request.pck

   first of all, how could this occur? secondly, I changed the ownership
   back to mailman but the list still does not work. what should I do next
   please?


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun  8 21:57:21 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 12:57:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can I disable "no duplicates" for all
 members on a list?
In-Reply-To: <20120608115451.GR32614@charite.de>
References: <20120608115451.GR32614@charite.de>
Message-ID: <4FD25921.9070105@msapiro.net>

On 6/8/2012 4:54 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> How can I disable "no duplicates" for all members on a list?


If you mean how do you set all current list members "no duplicates"
setting Off, see the script at
<http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/set_nodups.py> (mirrored at
<http://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/set_nodups.py>. This sets the
option On for everyone. To set it Off, change the line

        mlist.setMemberOption(member, mm_cfg.DontReceiveDuplicates, 1)

to

        mlist.setMemberOption(member, mm_cfg.DontReceiveDuplicates, 0)

Don't forget to also uncheck the setting in new_member_options.

If you mean how do you prevent a user from setting it back, you could
hack the options.html template(s) (see <http://wiki.list.org/x/jYA9>) to
remove the setting. That wouldn't prevent setting it by email, but
nobody knows how to do that anyway.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun  8 23:10:30 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:10:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list suddenly stopped working
In-Reply-To: <1339158111.12677@web-analysts.net>
Message-ID: <PC19520120608141030053119d0dcb1@MSAPIRO>

Christian Stalberg wrote:
>
>   I host several lists. One of them suddenly stopped working. In poking
>   around I see that the ownership had changed from mailman to apache
>
>   [root at zarathustra mailman]# ls -la /var/lib/mailman/lists/listdude
>   total 56
>   drwxrwsr-x.  2 root    mailman  4096 Jun  8 07:41 .
>   drwxrwsr-x. 18 root    mailman  4096 Feb 19 19:21 ..
>   -rw-rw----.  1 apache  mailman 18639 Jun  8 07:41 config.pck
>   -rw-rw----.  1 apache  mailman 18639 Jun  8 07:41 config.pck.last
>   -rw-rw----.  1 mailman mailman   132 May 14 14:26 pending.pck
>   -rw-rw-r--.  1 apache  mailman    20 Jun  8 07:41 request.pck
>
>   first of all, how could this occur?


It occurred because the config.pck was updated on Jun  8 at 07:41 by
the web server, most likely the admin or admindb web GUI, but possibly
a user's options page or ???


> secondly, I changed the ownership
>   back to mailman but the list still does not work.


That's because the owner of these files is irrelevant. It's the
'mailman' group that counts as all the qrunners and web CGIs run as
group 'mailman'.

> what should I do next
>   please?


Since it's only one list, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/noA9>
and if that doesn't help, see <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.

If you are still stuck after that, try to report more information such
as what's in logs, can you access the list's web pages and so on.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Sat Jun  9 01:41:50 2012
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 19:41:50 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /bin/sh: mailman: command not found
Message-ID: <4FD28DBE.2070302@bellsouth.net>

I am getting a daily message with the subject: Cron
&lt;mailman at dap002&gt; mailman /usr/lib/mailman

The message simply says:

/bin/sh: mailman: command not found

Since there is no path for the mailman commands in crontab.in (a distro
bug?), I assume I am supposed to add it myself. Am I correct that it
really wants /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/mailman or is there some other
executable somewhere named 'mailman' that I should use?

TIA.

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From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  9 02:34:15 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 17:34:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /bin/sh: mailman: command not found
In-Reply-To: <4FD28DBE.2070302@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <PC19520120608173415037561ad67c6@MSAPIRO>

Dennis Putnam wrote:
>
>I am getting a daily message with the subject: Cron
>&lt;mailman at dap002&gt; mailman /usr/lib/mailman
>
>The message simply says:
>
>/bin/sh: mailman: command not found


Post the contents of /var/spool/cron/mailman and /etc/cron.d/mailman if
they exist.


>Since there is no path for the mailman commands in crontab.in (a distro
>bug?), I assume I am supposed to add it myself.


No. I can't tell you what you need to do until I see the above
requested crontabs, but editing crontab.in does nothing unless you
subsequently install it.


>Am I correct that it
>really wants /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/mailman


No. That script is just a sample /etc/init.d/mailman script which is
the script to process "service mailman" commands, but it shouldn't be
run by cron.


>or is there some other
>executable somewhere named 'mailman' that I should use?


cron should not be attempting daily to run any script named mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  9 02:44:45 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 17:44:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /bin/sh: mailman: command not found
In-Reply-To: <PC19520120608173415037561ad67c6@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <PC19520120608174445004618af5b5b@MSAPIRO>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Dennis Putnam wrote:
>>
>>I am getting a daily message with the subject: Cron
>>&lt;mailman at dap002&gt; mailman /usr/lib/mailman
>>
>>The message simply says:
>>
>>/bin/sh: mailman: command not found
>
>
>Post the contents of /var/spool/cron/mailman and /etc/cron.d/mailman if
>they exist.


Upon further thought I think the issue is that someone has installed a
system mailman crontab (/etc/cron.d/mailman) as the mailman user's
crontab (/var/spool/cron/mailman). System crontabs have an extra field
for the user under which to run the command (mailman) which will be
interpreted as a 'mailman' command if installed as a user crontab.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Sun Jun 10 15:44:08 2012
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:44:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Off Topic - Apache Config Help Needed
Message-ID: <4FD4A4A8.6030405@bellsouth.net>

My apologies for this off topic post but my attempts to get an Apache
config issue resolved has garnered zero replies on the Apache forum and
others. I am hoping there is someone here that is quite knowledgeable
with Apache configuration willing to help me off list. Thanks.

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From seun.ojedeji at gmail.com  Sun Jun 10 15:51:06 2012
From: seun.ojedeji at gmail.com (Seun Ojedeji)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 14:51:06 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Off Topic - Apache Config Help Needed
In-Reply-To: <4FD4A4A8.6030405@bellsouth.net>
References: <4FD4A4A8.6030405@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <CAD_dc6iU9HGovQeGtXnujfj+xB-+JxvVXGA-v-yWJ15ijBtj3w@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps you could say what the problem is. ;)

Cheers!

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> My apologies for this off topic post but my attempts to get an Apache
> config issue resolved has garnered zero replies on the Apache forum and
> others. I am hoping there is someone here that is quite knowledgeable
> with Apache configuration willing to help me off list. Thanks.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/seun.ojedeji%40gmail.com
>



-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Seun Ojedeji,
Federal University Oye-Ekiti
web:      http://www.fuoye.edu.ng
Mobile: +2348035233535
**alt email: <http://goog_1872880453>seun.ojedeji at fuoye.edu.ng*

From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Sun Jun 10 17:48:34 2012
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:48:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /bin/sh: mailman: command not found
In-Reply-To: <PC19520120608174445004618af5b5b@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC19520120608174445004618af5b5b@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4FD4C1D2.8030108@bellsouth.net>

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the reply. Here is /etc/cron.d/mailman

#
# -- WARNING -- WARNING -- WARNING -- WARNING -- WARNING -- WARNING --
# ------------------  EDIT THE CORRECT FILE  -------------------------
#
# This file is copied to /etc/cron.d/mailman from
# /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in when the mailman service is started
via its
# init.d script and the file /etc/cron.d/mailman is removed when the
# service is stopped.  Therefore any edits made directly to
# /etc/cron.d/mailman will be lost anytime the mailman service
# restarts.
#
# To make changes edit the master copy /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in
and then
# restart the service to pick up the changes (/sbin/service mailman
restart).
#
# The reason this is done this way is because the mailman cron jobs
# should only be invoked if the mailman service is enabled and not
# just as a consequence of installing the rpm as was the case
# previously. The file /etc/cron.d/mailman cannot simply be linked to
# the master copy in /usr/lib/mailman/cron because for security reasons cron
# will not process crontab files that are links or writeable by
# anybody else but root, thus the file must be copied into /etc/cron.d
# with the right ownership and permissions.
#
# At 8AM every day, mail reminders to admins as to pending requests.
# They are less likely to ignore these reminders if they're mailed
# early in the morning, but of course, this is local time... ;)
0 8 * * * mailman /usr/lib/mailman/cron/checkdbs
#
# At 9AM, send notifications to disabled members that are due to be
# reminded to re-enable their accounts.
0 9 * * * mailman /usr/lib/mailman/cron/disabled
#
# Noon, mail digests for lists that do periodic as well as threshhold
delivery.
0 12 * * * mailman /usr/lib/mailman/cron/senddigests
#
# 5 AM on the first of each month, mail out password reminders.
0 5 1 * * mailman /usr/lib/mailman/cron/mailpasswds
#
# Every 5 mins, try to gate news to mail.  You can comment this one out
# if you don't want to allow gating, or don't have any going on right now,
# or want to exclusively use a callback strategy instead of polling.
0,5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50,55 * * * * mailman
/usr/lib/mailman/cron/gate_new
s
#
# At 3:27am every night, regenerate the gzip'd archive file.  Only
# turn this on if the internal archiver is used and
# GZIP_ARCHIVE_TXT_FILES is false in mm_cfg.py
27 3 * * * mailman /usr/lib/mailman/cron/nightly_gzip
#
# At 4:30AM daily, cull old entries from the 'bad' and 'shunt' queues.
30 4 * * * mailman /usr/lib/mailman/cron/cull_bad_shunt
#
# check for mail via fetchmail every 5 minutes
*/5 * * * * /usr/bin/fetchmail --all --silent -f
/usr/lib/mailman/fetchmailrc
#
# Send a monthly reminder to cufsalumni list members
0 0 1 * * /usr/lib/mailman/cron/mailpasswds -l cufsalumni
#
# Send a monthly bounce report
0 0 1 * * /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -r get_bounce_info
cufsalumni|mail -s "c
ufsalumni List Bounce Report" dap1 at bellsouth.net

I did not edit this file directly. Per the instructions this is updated
from  /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in'. That is the file I edit.

Here are the contents of /var/spool/cron/mailman:

drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman  4096 Jun  2 14:45 archive
drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman  4096 Jun  2 05:05 bounces
drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman  4096 May 10 09:00 commands
drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman 36864 Jun 10 09:00 in
drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman  4096 May  9 09:50 news
drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman 12288 Jun 10 09:00 out
drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman  4096 May  9 09:50 retry
drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman 28672 May 18 04:30 shunt
drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman 28672 Jun 10 09:00 virgin

I don't know how this might have been generated if it is supposed to be
empty. Just as a reminder I am using CentOS 6 with Apache 2.2.15.

Thanks.

On 6/8/2012 8:44 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> Dennis Putnam wrote:
>>> I am getting a daily message with the subject: Cron
>>> &lt;mailman at dap002&gt; mailman /usr/lib/mailman
>>>
>>> The message simply says:
>>>
>>> /bin/sh: mailman: command not found
>>
>> Post the contents of /var/spool/cron/mailman and /etc/cron.d/mailman if
>> they exist.
>
> Upon further thought I think the issue is that someone has installed a
> system mailman crontab (/etc/cron.d/mailman) as the mailman user's
> crontab (/var/spool/cron/mailman). System crontabs have an extra field
> for the user under which to run the command (mailman) which will be
> interpreted as a 'mailman' command if installed as a user crontab.
>


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From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 10 18:03:11 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:03:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /bin/sh: mailman: command not found
In-Reply-To: <4FD4C1D2.8030108@bellsouth.net>
References: <PC19520120608174445004618af5b5b@MSAPIRO>
	<4FD4C1D2.8030108@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4FD4C53F.2000001@msapiro.net>

On 6/10/2012 8:48 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. Here is /etc/cron.d/mailman
> 
[...]
> #
> # At 8AM every day, mail reminders to admins as to pending requests.
> # They are less likely to ignore these reminders if they're mailed
> # early in the morning, but of course, this is local time... ;)
> 0 8 * * * mailman /usr/lib/mailman/cron/checkdbs


Entries like the above are correct for /etc/cron.d/mailman. The
'mailman' in the 6th field is the name of the user under which to run
the command.


[...]
> #
> # check for mail via fetchmail every 5 minutes
> */5 * * * * /usr/bin/fetchmail --all --silent -f
> /usr/lib/mailman/fetchmailrc
> #
> # Send a monthly reminder to cufsalumni list members
> 0 0 1 * * /usr/lib/mailman/cron/mailpasswds -l cufsalumni
> #
> # Send a monthly bounce report
> 0 0 1 * * /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -r get_bounce_info
> cufsalumni|mail -s "c
> ufsalumni List Bounce Report" dap1 at bellsouth.net


The above entries are not in the correct format for /etc/cron.d/mailman
because they are missing a username in the 6th field.


> I did not edit this file directly. Per the instructions this is updated
> from  /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in'. That is the file I edit.


And if you are going to add additional cron commands to that file, they
have to be in the correct format for a system crontab.


> Here are the contents of /var/spool/cron/mailman:
> 
> drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman  4096 Jun  2 14:45 archive
> drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman  4096 Jun  2 05:05 bounces
> drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman  4096 May 10 09:00 commands
> drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman 36864 Jun 10 09:00 in
> drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman  4096 May  9 09:50 news
> drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman 12288 Jun 10 09:00 out
> drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman  4096 May  9 09:50 retry
> drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman 28672 May 18 04:30 shunt
> drwxrws---. 2 mailman mailman 28672 Jun 10 09:00 virgin
> 
> I don't know how this might have been generated if it is supposed to be
> empty. Just as a reminder I am using CentOS 6 with Apache 2.2.15.


It is not supposed to be a directory, empty or not. What you have looks
like a copy of mailman's queue directory which in RedHat/CentOS is
/var/spool/mailman, or maybe you are showing me /var/spool/mailman and
not /var/spool/cron/mailman

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 10 18:31:33 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:31:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /bin/sh: mailman: command not found
In-Reply-To: <4FD4C805.7030800@bellsouth.net>
References: <4FD4C53F.2000001@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <PC195201206100931330156a8900fbd@MSAPIRO>

Dennis Putnam wrote:
>
>Doh! You are correct. The directory /var/spool/cron is empty.
>
>The format of the cron file is what was distributed with CentOS. Odd
>that it would be wrong but explains why my additions work and the distro
>ones do not. Is this file unchanged with updates so if I fix it, it
>won't break?


It is not wrong. It is correct for a system crontab, i.e. for
/etc/cron.d/mailman. If the standard crons give the 'mailman command
not found' message and your added entries work, the crontab is
installed somewhere as a user crontab, not a system crontab.

This is not consistent with what you are telling me you see in
/etc/cron.d/mailman and /var/spool/cron so I don't know what's
actually going on. Are you certain /var/spool/cron is empty?

What's in /var/log/cron?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Sun Jun 10 20:35:49 2012
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 14:35:49 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] /bin/sh: mailman: command not found
In-Reply-To: <PC195201206100931330156a8900fbd@MSAPIRO>
References: <4FD4C53F.2000001@msapiro.net>
	<PC195201206100931330156a8900fbd@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4FD4E905.8010604@bellsouth.net>

Hi Mark,

I think I got it. I did a 'crontab -r -u mailman' which should have
removed the errant cronjob. I also deleted /etc/cron.d/mailman, edited
my additions to include the user 'mailman' then restarted mailman. The
new /etc/cron.d/mailman showed up again as expected and I think it will
be OK now. Maybe both cronjobs were running and the error message was
coming from the incorrect one. Thanks.

On 6/10/2012 12:31 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Doh! You are correct. The directory /var/spool/cron is empty.
>>
>> The format of the cron file is what was distributed with CentOS. Odd
>> that it would be wrong but explains why my additions work and the distro
>> ones do not. Is this file unchanged with updates so if I fix it, it
>> won't break?
>
> It is not wrong. It is correct for a system crontab, i.e. for
> /etc/cron.d/mailman. If the standard crons give the 'mailman command
> not found' message and your added entries work, the crontab is
> installed somewhere as a user crontab, not a system crontab.
>
> This is not consistent with what you are telling me you see in
> /etc/cron.d/mailman and /var/spool/cron so I don't know what's
> actually going on. Are you certain /var/spool/cron is empty?
>
> What's in /var/log/cron?
>




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From odhiambo at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 09:07:22 2012
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:07:22 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Off Topic - Apache Config Help Needed
In-Reply-To: <4FD4A4A8.6030405@bellsouth.net>
References: <4FD4A4A8.6030405@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WNq9HtMQGfPcoNPoOCJ3Rjbf9L_LthFaREDJBxU4f+vwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> My apologies for this off topic post but my attempts to get an Apache
> config issue resolved has garnered zero replies on the Apache forum and
> others. I am hoping there is someone here that is quite knowledgeable
> with Apache configuration willing to help me off list. Thanks.
>
>
Please underscore the issues:)

-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.

From danci_emanuel at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 11 15:15:46 2012
From: danci_emanuel at yahoo.com (Danci Emanuel)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 06:15:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] smtp error - [Errno 111] Connection refused - when
	trying to install MM 3.0
Message-ID: <1339420546.47127.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hello everyone!

I am working on configuring MM 3.0 on my machine?using these
instructions?-?http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/view/head:/src/mailman/docs/WebUIin5.rst?
and when I run the?bin/test command?(line 34), when running the?
'mailman.testing.layers.SMTPLayer tests' I get the following?
error: 'error: [Errno 111] Connection refused'.?

This is the complete error message:?
?Running mailman.testing.layers.SMTPLayer tests:
? Tear down mailman.testing.layers.LMTPLayer in 0.009 seconds.
? Set up mailman.testing.layers.SMTPLayer Traceback (most recent call last):
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/zope.testrunner-4.0.4-py2.6.egg/zope/testrunner/runner.py", line 380, in run_layer
? ? setup_layer(options, layer, setup_layers)
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/zope.testrunner-4.0.4-py2.6.egg/zope/testrunner/runner.py", line 672, in setup_layer
? ? layer.setUp()
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/testing/layers.py", line 254, in setUp
? ? cls.smtpd.start()
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/testing/mta.py", line 197, in start
? ? QueueController.start(self)
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/lazr.smtptest-1.3-py2.6.egg/lazr/smtptest/controller.py", line 69, in start
? ? smtpd = self._connect()
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/lazr.smtptest-1.3-py2.6.egg/lazr/smtptest/controller.py", line 60, in _connect
? ? smtpd.connect(self._server.host, self._server.port)
? File "/usr/lib/python2.6/smtplib.py", line 295, in connect
? ? self.sock = self._get_socket(host, port, self.timeout)
? File "/usr/lib/python2.6/smtplib.py", line 273, in _get_socket
? ? return socket.create_connection((port, host), timeout)
? File "/usr/lib/python2.6/socket.py", line 514, in create_connection
? ? raise error, msg
error: [Errno 111] Connection refused

I know that has to do something with the smtp server,?
but I do not know exactly how to solve it, so any feedback
is welcome!

Thanks in advance for your help!?

Emanuel Danci

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 11 18:43:16 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:43:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] smtp error - [Errno 111] Connection refused -
 when trying to install MM 3.0
In-Reply-To: <1339420546.47127.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339420546.47127.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD62024.2060506@msapiro.net>

On 6/11/2012 6:15 AM, Danci Emanuel wrote:
> 
> I know that has to do something with the smtp server, 
> but I do not know exactly how to solve it, so any feedback
> is welcome!


The test is trying to set up a "fake" MTA to be the MTA side of an SMTP
connection. The fake MTA is trying to open a socket to listen and the
connection is refused. I think it is trying to listen on port 9025.
Either something else is already using that port or it is being blocked.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From danci_emanuel at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 11 20:07:05 2012
From: danci_emanuel at yahoo.com (Danci Emanuel)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:07:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fw: smtp error - [Errno 111] Connection refused -
	when trying to install MM 3.0
In-Reply-To: <1339435777.30985.YahooMailNeo@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339420546.47127.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4FD62024.2060506@msapiro.net>
	<1339435777.30985.YahooMailNeo@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1339438025.6710.YahooMailNeo@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>



Thanks for the reply!

I have opened the port (9025) and also I made sure that it is not used,
but I get the same error.?

Any other ideas?

Emanuel Danci


________________________________
 From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
To: Danci Emanuel <danci_emanuel at yahoo.com> 
Cc: "mailman-users at python.org" <mailman-users at python.org> 
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] smtp error - [Errno 111] Connection refused - when trying to install MM 3.0
 
On 6/11/2012 6:15 AM, Danci Emanuel wrote:
> 
> I know that has to do something with the smtp server, 
> but I do not know exactly how to solve it, so any feedback
> is welcome!


The test is trying to set up a "fake" MTA to be the MTA side of an SMTP
connection. The fake MTA is trying to open a socket to listen and the
connection is refused. I think it is trying to listen on port 9025.
Either something else is already using that port or it is being blocked.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>? ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense - B. Dylan

From danci_emanuel at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 11 20:09:29 2012
From: danci_emanuel at yahoo.com (Danci Emanuel)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:09:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] smtp error - [Errno 111] Connection refused -
	when trying to install MM 3.0
In-Reply-To: <4FD62FFF.7040509@msapiro.net>
References: <1339420546.47127.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4FD62024.2060506@msapiro.net>
	<1339435777.30985.YahooMailNeo@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4FD62FFF.7040509@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1339438169.5408.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>



When running bin/test with the -vv option everything works smoothly except for these tests:

test_rejecting_pipeline (mailman.core.tests.test_pipelines.TestPostingPipeline)/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/core/pipelines.py:73: DeprecationWarning: BaseException.message has been deprecated as of Python 2.6
? message_id, pipeline_name, handler.name, error.message))
/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/app/bounces.py:84: DeprecationWarning: BaseException.message has been deprecated as of Python 2.6
? notice = _(error.message)

?test_rfc2369_headers (mailman.core.tests.test_pipelines.TestPostingPipeline)
?test_crash_event (mailman.core.tests.test_runner.TestRunner)/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/core/tests/test_runner.py:84: DeprecationWarning: BaseException.message has been deprecated as of Python 2.6
? self.assertEqual(event.error.message, 'borked')

?test_one_precedence_header (mailman.email.tests.test_message.TestMessage)
?test_bad_action (mailman.handlers.tests.test_mimedel.TestDispose)/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/handlers/tests/test_mimedel.py:209: DeprecationWarning: BaseException.message has been deprecated as of Python 2.6
? self.assertEqual(error.message, 'bad action')

?test_dispose_bounce (mailman.handlers.tests.test_mimedel.TestDispose)/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/handlers/tests/test_mimedel.py:92: DeprecationWarning: BaseException.message has been deprecated as of Python 2.6
? self.assertEqual(error.message, 'rejecting')

?test_dispose_discard (mailman.handlers.tests.test_mimedel.TestDispose)/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/handlers/tests/test_mimedel.py:80: DeprecationWarning: BaseException.message has been deprecated as of Python 2.6
? self.assertEqual(error.message, 'discarding')

?test_dispose_forward (mailman.handlers.tests.test_mimedel.TestDispose)/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/handlers/tests/test_mimedel.py:112: DeprecationWarning: BaseException.message has been deprecated as of Python 2.6
? self.assertEqual(error.message, 'forwarding')

?test_dispose_non_preservable (mailman.handlers.tests.test_mimedel.TestDispose)/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/handlers/tests/test_mimedel.py:163: DeprecationWarning: BaseException.message has been deprecated as of Python 2.6
? self.assertEqual(error.message, 'not preserved')

?test_dispose_preservable (mailman.handlers.tests.test_mimedel.TestDispose)/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/handlers/tests/test_mimedel.py:185: DeprecationWarning: BaseException.message has been deprecated as of Python 2.6
? self.assertEqual(error.message, 'preserved')


and the error that I was saying about appears here:?

Running mailman.testing.layers.SMTPLayer tests:
? Tear down mailman.testing.layers.LMTPLayer in 0.009 seconds.
? Set up mailman.testing.layers.SMTPLayer Traceback (most recent call last):
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/zope.testrunner-4.0.4-py2.6.egg/zope/testrunner/runner.py", line 380, in run_layer
? ? setup_layer(options, layer, setup_layers)
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/zope.testrunner-4.0.4-py2.6.egg/zope/testrunner/runner.py", line 672, in setup_layer
? ? layer.setUp()
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/testing/layers.py", line 254, in setUp
? ? cls.smtpd.start()
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/testing/mta.py", line 197, in start
? ? QueueController.start(self)
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/lazr.smtptest-1.3-py2.6.egg/lazr/smtptest/controller.py", line 69, in start
? ? smtpd = self._connect()
? File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/lazr.smtptest-1.3-py2.6.egg/lazr/smtptest/controller.py", line 60, in _connect
? ? smtpd.connect(self._server.host, self._server.port)
? File "/usr/lib/python2.6/smtplib.py", line 295, in connect
? ? self.sock = self._get_socket(host, port, self.timeout)
? File "/usr/lib/python2.6/smtplib.py", line 273, in _get_socket
? ? return socket.create_connection((port, host), timeout)
? File "/usr/lib/python2.6/socket.py", line 514, in create_connection
? ? raise error, msg
error: [Errno 111] Connection refused


Thanks again for you help!
Emanuel Danci

________________________________
 From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
To: Danci Emanuel <danci_emanuel at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] smtp error - [Errno 111] Connection refused - when trying to install MM 3.0
 
On 6/11/2012 10:29 AM, Danci Emanuel wrote:
> 
> I have opened the port and also I made sure that it is not used,
> but I get the same error. 


What is the exact test that fails. If you don't see it, run bin/test
with the -vv option.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>? ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 12 04:13:28 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 19:13:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] smtp error - [Errno 111] Connection refused -
 when trying to install MM 3.0
In-Reply-To: <1339438169.5408.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339420546.47127.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4FD62024.2060506@msapiro.net>
	<1339435777.30985.YahooMailNeo@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4FD62FFF.7040509@msapiro.net>
	<1339438169.5408.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD6A5C8.20703@msapiro.net>

On 6/11/2012 11:09 AM, Danci Emanuel wrote:
> 
> 
> and the error that I was saying about appears here: 
> 
> Running mailman.testing.layers.SMTPLayer tests:
>   Tear down mailman.testing.layers.LMTPLayer in 0.009 seconds.
>   Set up mailman.testing.layers.SMTPLayer Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File
> "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/zope.testrunner-4.0.4-py2.6.egg/zope/testrunner/runner.py",
> line 380, in run_layer
>     setup_layer(options, layer, setup_layers)
>   File
> "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/zope.testrunner-4.0.4-py2.6.egg/zope/testrunner/runner.py",
> line 672, in setup_layer
>     layer.setUp()
>   File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/testing/layers.py", line 254,
> in setUp
>     cls.smtpd.start()
>   File "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/src/mailman/testing/mta.py", line 197, in
> start
>     QueueController.start(self)
>   File
> "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/lazr.smtptest-1.3-py2.6.egg/lazr/smtptest/controller.py",
> line 69, in start
>     smtpd = self._connect()
>   File
> "/usr/local/mm3/mailman/eggs/lazr.smtptest-1.3-py2.6.egg/lazr/smtptest/controller.py",
> line 60, in _connect
>     smtpd.connect(self._server.host, self._server.port)
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.6/smtplib.py", line 295, in connect
>     self.sock = self._get_socket(host, port, self.timeout)
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.6/smtplib.py", line 273, in _get_socket
>     return socket.create_connection((port, host), timeout)
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.6/socket.py", line 514, in create_connection
>     raise error, msg
> error: [Errno 111] Connection refused


I'm not sure what the issue is. What happens if you do the following:

mark at mark-VirtualBox:~/mm/scrubber$ bin/mailman shell
Welcome to the GNU Mailman shell

>>> from mailman.testing import layers
>>> from mailman.config import config
>>> config.push('temp', """
... [mta]
... smtp_port: 9025
... """)
>>> x = layers.SMTPLayer()
>>> x.setUp()
Jun 11 19:05:48 2012 (3862) [SMTPServer] listening: localhost:9025
Jun 11 19:05:48 2012 (3862) starting the SMTP server thread
Jun 11 19:05:48 2012 (3862) connecting to localhost:9025
Jun 11 19:05:48 2012 (3862) [SMTPServer] starting asyncore loop
Jun 11 19:05:48 2012 (3862) [ConnectionCountingServer] accepted:
('127.0.0.1', 3
3637)
Jun 11 19:05:48 2012 (3862) Got HELO response: (250, 'mark-VirtualBox')
Jun 11 19:05:48 2012 (3862) [ConnectionCountingServer] accepted:
('127.0.0.1', 3
3638)
>>> x.tearDown()
Jun 11 19:06:07 2012 (3862) stopping the SMTP server thread
Jun 11 19:06:07 2012 (3862) [ConnectionCountingServer] accepted:
('127.0.0.1', 3
3639)
Jun 11 19:06:07 2012 (3862) SMTP server stopped
>>>
mark at mark-VirtualBox:~/mm/scrubber$

In the above, "mark at mark-VirtualBox:~/mm/scrubber$" is a shell prompt in
the directory in which you built Mailman at which you type what follows
on that line. ">>> " and "... " are python interpreter prompts at which
you type what follows on that line. Type control-D (end of file) at the
last such prompt. The other lines are the responses I get.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun 12 05:02:49 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:02:49 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] smtp error - [Errno 111] Connection refused
	-	when trying to install MM 3.0
In-Reply-To: <1339438169.5408.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339420546.47127.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4FD62024.2060506@msapiro.net>
	<1339435777.30985.YahooMailNeo@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4FD62FFF.7040509@msapiro.net>
	<1339438169.5408.YahooMailNeo@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <87sje16xly.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

You probably should move this thread to mailman-developers; the
primary developer of Mailman 3 internals only intermittently hangs out
here, while most of the subscribers here are waiting for just two
words on Mailman 3: "It's released!" :-)

Danci Emanuel writes:

From dave at fiteyes.com  Tue Jun 12 18:20:26 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:20:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Integrating mailman with customer data
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU4xE5uNagrz6-Hi3zf+tTByRajL6WMwe7fvzHTYQj+SEw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm reading the following thread from 2004:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2004-July/037954.html. I
would like to solve a similar problem. This thread states:

You can use the mailman command-line tools to synchronize against
> external databases.  There are various people on the list who have
> described their work in doing so.  I would encourage you to search
> the archives of the mailing list.
>
>
I've been searching the archives for the last 30 minutes and I have not
come up with anything helpful. For example, I searched via Google using:

site:python.org mailman sync with external database       *(and others)*

Can anyone suggest a better way to find examples and more help for syncing
Mailman with external customer data?

One thing we would like to do is efficiently update Mailman based on any
feedback loop reports we get. We also get a lot of support requests for
Mailman subscription changes. Our members are not technical and often they
cannot unsubscribe themselves from Mailman, so we do it for them.

We need to make our process of tracking all these change requests and
updating Mailman more efficient. (We currently keep an Excel spreadsheet
that tracks all these change requests and we update Mailman manually, but
that method is *very* unsatisfactory.) Another goal is to keep a member
database that gives us some reporting capabilities (e.g., ability to track
percentage of unsubscribe requests, etc.).

Thanks

From jeremy at fairbrass.co.nz  Tue Jun 12 18:29:41 2012
From: jeremy at fairbrass.co.nz (Jeremy Fairbrass)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:29:41 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender's address only in Reply-to field
Message-ID: <009501cd48b8$92681750$b73845f0$@co.nz>

Hi all,

I'm administering a Mailman list using version 2.1.14. It's a private list, whereby only list members can post to it ("generic_nonmember_action" is set to discard).

I've just had an email sent through the list which was sent from a web service (Evite.com to be precise) by one of the list members. The email itself had an evite.com address in the From header, and had the list member's own address in the Reply-To header. The email was accepted by Mailman and delivered to all list members.

This surprised me, as I assumed that a list member's address would have to be in the From field for it to be accepted, whereas in this case their address was exclusively in the Reply-To field. Is that how it's supposed to be? Surely Mailman should only consider the From field when checking the identity of the sender of the email?

Is there any setting in Mailman that will make it only consider the From field and not the Reply-To field when accepting an email?

Secondly, what's the best or appropriate way for me to then block emails from a third-party sender (such as Evite) which is using this Reply-To "trick", if I don't want those emails to be delivered to my list?

I tried putting the full evite.com email address into the "discard_these_nonmembers" field on the [Sender filters] page, but that didn't work. When I tested it afterwards, the email from Evite.com still was accepted by Mailman and not discarded.

I suppose I could add the Evite address as an actual member, and then mark that member for moderation, but I'd rather not have to do that. I feel like I ought to be able to just add the Evite address to the discard list and have it automatically discarded there, or some similar solution. The Membership List page should really only be used for actual list members.

Regards,
Jeremy



From pro_green_european at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 12 09:47:58 2012
From: pro_green_european at yahoo.com (Pro Green European)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 00:47:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Regarding mailman 2.1.12 (RHEL6/CentOS6)
Message-ID: <1339487278.53377.YahooMailNeo@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi.

I'm running a mailman (v.2.1.12) mailinglist on a Centos 6.2 system.

Now I'm wondering if the version 2.1.12 that comes with both RHEL6 & Centos 6 contain any known bugs that make mailman 2.1.12 vulnerable?

The system is SeLinux enabled.


Regards,
/PGE


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 13 00:02:44 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:02:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender's address only in Reply-to field
In-Reply-To: <009501cd48b8$92681750$b73845f0$@co.nz>
Message-ID: <PC195201206121502440906b08c6976@MSAPIRO>

Jeremy Fairbrass wrote:
>
>I'm administering a Mailman list using version 2.1.14. It's a private list, whereby only list members can post to it ("generic_nonmember_action" is set to discard).
>
>I've just had an email sent through the list which was sent from a web service (Evite.com to be precise) by one of the list members. The email itself had an evite.com address in the From header, and had the list member's own address in the Reply-To header. The email was accepted by Mailman and delivered to all list members.
>
>This surprised me, as I assumed that a list member's address would have to be in the From field for it to be accepted, whereas in this case their address was exclusively in the Reply-To field. Is that how it's supposed to be? Surely Mailman should only consider the From field when checking the identity of the sender of the email?


A post is considered to be from a member if a member's address appears
in any of the headers (or envelope sender) appearing in the
SENDER_HEADERS setting. The Defaults.py setting for this is

SENDER_HEADERS = ('from', None, 'reply-to', 'sender')

meaning a post will be considered to be from the first member address
found in From:, the envelope sender, Reply-To: or Sender: if any of
those contains a member's address.


>Is there any setting in Mailman that will make it only consider the From field and not the Reply-To field when accepting an email?


If you want only the From: headre to be considered, you can put

SENDER_HEADERS = ('from',)

in mm_cfg.py. (the parens and comma are important)


>Secondly, what's the best or appropriate way for me to then block emails from a third-party sender (such as Evite) which is using this Reply-To "trick", if I don't want those emails to be delivered to my list?


It's not a trick. If they were trying to trick you, they would put the
inviter's address in From:. They legitimately want to direct replies
to the e-vite back to the inviter.


>I tried putting the full evite.com email address into the "discard_these_nonmembers" field on the [Sender filters] page, but that didn't work. When I tested it afterwards, the email from Evite.com still was accepted by Mailman and not discarded.


Because non-member tests are applied only after the post is determined
to not be from a member.


>I suppose I could add the Evite address as an actual member, and then mark that member for moderation, but I'd rather not have to do that. I feel like I ought to be able to just add the Evite address to the discard list and have it automatically discarded there, or some similar solution. The Membership List page should really only be used for actual list members.



If you control the Mailman installation, you can set SENDER_HEADERS in
mm_cfg.py as above. If not, you can use Privacy options... -> Spam
filters -> header_filter_rules to discard messages with a header
regexp like for example:

^from:.*[@.]evite\.com([>\s]|$)

I tend to use a rule myself like

^Sender:.*linkedin.com>?$
^Return-Path:.*linkedin.com>?$
^Sender:.*homerunmail.com>?$
^Return-Path:.*homerunmail.com>?$
^Reply-To:.*homerunmail.com>?$
^Sender:.*facebookmail.com>?$
^Return-Path:.*facebookmail.com>?$

to get unwanted mail that is actually From: a member.

I don't include evite.com because ultimately, that mail is generated by
a list member and I would try to educate, moderate, remove the member
first rather than try to keep track of all the possible sources of
such mail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 13 00:32:25 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:32:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Regarding mailman 2.1.12 (RHEL6/CentOS6)
In-Reply-To: <1339487278.53377.YahooMailNeo@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952012061215322505461e90517b@MSAPIRO>

Pro Green European wrote:
>
>I'm running a mailman (v.2.1.12) mailinglist on a Centos 6.2 system.
>
>Now I'm wondering if the version 2.1.12 that comes with both RHEL6 & Centos 6 contain any known bugs that make mailman 2.1.12 vulnerable?


See the NEWS file at
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/NEWS>
and note the security items in the 2.1.15rc1 (soon to be 2.1.15) and
2.1.14 sections.

However, this is really a question for RedHat as they may or may not
have backported fixes to their 2.1.12 package.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 13 01:35:33 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:35:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Integrating mailman with customer data
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU4xE5uNagrz6-Hi3zf+tTByRajL6WMwe7fvzHTYQj+SEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201206121635330203471f282c@MSAPIRO>

David wrote:
>
>Can anyone suggest a better way to find examples and more help for syncing
>Mailman with external customer data?


Basically, you have to do the heavy lifting. Mailman's bin/sync_members
tool is what you use to actually sync the list's membership with your
database, but you first have to extract the address and display name
information from the database and create a flat file with one user per
line in one of the formats described in the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/YoA9>. Then you can use bin/sync_members to
synchronize the list membership with that file.


>One thing we would like to do is efficiently update Mailman based on any
>feedback loop reports we get. We also get a lot of support requests for
>Mailman subscription changes. Our members are not technical and often they
>cannot unsubscribe themselves from Mailman, so we do it for them.


If you reflect those things in your database, you can then extract and
use bin/sync_members.


>We need to make our process of tracking all these change requests and
>updating Mailman more efficient. (We currently keep an Excel spreadsheet
>that tracks all these change requests and we update Mailman manually, but
>that method is *very* unsatisfactory.)


You could process subscribe requests with bin/add_members and unsubs
with bin/remove_members if that works better than sync_members, but
you still have to produce the lists of members to add/remove.


>Another goal is to keep a member
>database that gives us some reporting capabilities (e.g., ability to track
>percentage of unsubscribe requests, etc.).


That would be totally outside Mailman, but it could generate input to
the *_members tools.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From sweepslate at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 11:04:11 2012
From: sweepslate at gmail.com (sweepslate)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:04:11 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I can't turn off password reminders for my users
Message-ID: <4FD8578B.5050104@gmail.com>

I created a list and then turned off reminders in the admin UI. Here are 
the relative options:

   umbrella_list no
   send_reminders off

After that I've subscribed 3 mail addresses that belong to me, as a test.

Checking the web preferances for each newly registered user I see that 
they have the reminder option turn on: "Get password reminder email for 
this list?".

My question is, how can I turn off password reminders for all new users 
arriving on the list?

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 13 16:30:17 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:30:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I can't turn off password reminders for my users
In-Reply-To: <4FD8578B.5050104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201206130730170812aed8a2bd@MSAPIRO>

sweepslate wrote:

>I created a list and then turned off reminders in the admin UI. Here are 
>the relative options:
>
>   umbrella_list no
>   send_reminders off
>
>After that I've subscribed 3 mail addresses that belong to me, as a test.
>
>Checking the web preferances for each newly registered user I see that 
>they have the reminder option turn on: "Get password reminder email for 
>this list?".
>
>My question is, how can I turn off password reminders for all new users 
>arriving on the list?


You have to set the "32" bit in new_member_options which you cannot do
via the web UI. You have to use Mailman's bin/config_list or
bin/withlist to do this, but due to a bug, that doesn't work in
Mailman prior to 2.1.15. See
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/865825>.

HOWEVER! this is all moot because the list setting send_reminders = No
takes precedence over individual user options, and when send_reminders
is No, no periodic reminders are sent for the list regardless of user
options. I.e., if send_reminders is Yes, individual users can turn
their's off, but if it is No, individual users cannot turn their's on.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dave at fiteyes.com  Wed Jun 13 17:16:40 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:16:40 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse
	complaints
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>

We received 23 Yahoo feedback loop notices this morning from one user.
Supposedly these are abuse or complaint notices. The person joined us in
Sept of last year. After we received these notices from Yahoo today, we
contacted the member. She did not remember reporting us as spam. She didn't
offer us any useful feedback because she didn't remember any details.
However, she *does* wish to continue receiving emails from our list. So it
seems clear this was not an actual case of abuse. Unfortunately, Yahoo will
not deliver our messages to this address any longer, as far as I know. And
the person did not want to get a new email address.

As mentioned previously, we try to follow all best practices. Emails from
our list are DKIM signed, we have valid SPF records, rDNS is set up, our IP
address is dedicated to this mailing list. The content is purely from
members of the list, and every single message is moderated by a human so
almost nothing ever slips by that would be a marketing-type message. (For
example, if a member sends info about some product they have personally
benefited from, we review those carefully to be sure the message is
appropriate and informative, and is coming directly from a well-known and
trusted member of our list.)

The only info we received from Yahoo about this incident is the original
message we sent and a line like this:

This is an email abuse report for an email message received from
example.com on Thu, 07 Jun 2012 03:32:29 PDT

My questions are:

1. Why are we just receiving a feedback on 13 June 2012 for a message we
sent out on 07 June 2012? With this kind of delay, it apparently leads to
more abuse reports (23 in this case) because we can't remove that address
until we are notified. (Again, in this case, the person actually wished to
continue receiving emails.)

2. Does an incident like this count 23 times against our Yahoo reputation?

3. Is anyone else seeing notification delays coupled with multiple notices
like this?

Thanks.

From mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de  Wed Jun 13 17:39:28 2012
From: mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de (Mailman Admin)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:39:28 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>

Hello David


On 2012-06-13 17:16, David wrote:
> We received 23 Yahoo feedback loop notices this morning from one user.
> Supposedly these are abuse or complaint notices. The person joined us in
> Sept of last year. After we received these notices from Yahoo today, we
> contacted the member. She did not remember reporting us as spam. She didn't
> offer us any useful feedback because she didn't remember any details.
> However, she *does* wish to continue receiving emails from our list. So it
> seems clear this was not an actual case of abuse. Unfortunately, Yahoo will
> not deliver our messages to this address any longer, as far as I know. And
> the person did not want to get a new email address.
> 
> As mentioned previously, we try to follow all best practices. Emails from
> our list are DKIM signed, we have valid SPF records, rDNS is set up, our IP
> address is dedicated to this mailing list. The content is purely from
> members of the list, and every single message is moderated by a human so
> almost nothing ever slips by that would be a marketing-type message. (For
> example, if a member sends info about some product they have personally
> benefited from, we review those carefully to be sure the message is
> appropriate and informative, and is coming directly from a well-known and
> trusted member of our list.)
> 
> The only info we received from Yahoo about this incident is the original
> message we sent and a line like this:
> 
> This is an email abuse report for an email message received from
> example.com on Thu, 07 Jun 2012 03:32:29 PDT
> 
> My questions are:
> 
> 1. Why are we just receiving a feedback on 13 June 2012 for a message we
> sent out on 07 June 2012? With this kind of delay, it apparently leads to
> more abuse reports (23 in this case) because we can't remove that address
> until we are notified. (Again, in this case, the person actually wished to
> continue receiving emails.)
> 

You get it, when the Yahoo user is pressing the "this is SPAM/Junk"-Button.
This can take some time.
I once got one 14 Months after sending the actual message ;-)


> 2. Does an incident like this count 23 times against our Yahoo reputation?
> 

AFAIK this counts as one, because it was on one day and one recipient only.


> 3. Is anyone else seeing notification delays coupled with multiple notices
> like this?
> 

I never got multiple ones on the same message from one user, but from
multiple users and on multiple messages from one user.


Kind regards,
Christian Mack


From dave at fiteyes.com  Wed Jun 13 17:51:41 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:51:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Mailman Admin <
mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de> wrote:

>
> > 3. Is anyone else seeing notification delays coupled with multiple
> notices
> > like this?
> >
>
> I never got multiple ones on the same message from one user, but from
> multiple users and on multiple messages from one user.
>
>
Thanks for sharing your experiences. If nothing else, this may increase
awareness of Yahoo's "issues".

These 23 notices from Yahoo were from the same user, but for 23 different
messages from our list over the time period from 07 June 2012 to 13 June
2012.

> 1. Why are we just receiving a feedback on 13 June 2012 for a message we
> > sent out on 07 June 2012?
> >
>
> You get it when the Yahoo user is pressing the "this is SPAM/Junk"-Button.
>

We received these today. But the user did not remember marking us as spam
and she said today that she wanted to continue receiving emails from us. If
she pressed the "this is SPAM/Junk"-Button 23 times today, you would think
she would remember doing it when we asked her today.

For someone new to Mailman, this is confusing. But it only seems to happen
with Yahoo.

Thanks again for the info.

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Jun 13 18:59:05 2012
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:59:05 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120613165905.GD1400@charite.de>

* David <dave at fiteyes.com>:

> We received 23 Yahoo feedback loop notices this morning from one user.
> Supposedly these are abuse or complaint notices. The person joined us in
> Sept of last year. After we received these notices from Yahoo today, we
> contacted the member. She did not remember reporting us as spam. She didn't
> offer us any useful feedback because she didn't remember any details.

But didn't she just report the mails as spam? Anyway, here at
python.org we just unsubscribe those members, no questions asked. No
notifications either.

> However, she *does* wish to continue receiving emails from our list. So it
> seems clear this was not an actual case of abuse. Unfortunately, Yahoo will
> not deliver our messages to this address any longer, as far as I know. And
> the person did not want to get a new email address.

Too bad. She should complain to yahoo!

> As mentioned previously, we try to follow all best practices. Emails from
> our list are DKIM signed, we have valid SPF records, rDNS is set up, our IP
> address is dedicated to this mailing list. 

Just like here at python.org :)

> The only info we received from Yahoo about this incident is the original
> message we sent and a line like this:
> 
> This is an email abuse report for an email message received from
> example.com on Thu, 07 Jun 2012 03:32:29 PDT

Yes.

> My questions are:
> 
> 1. Why are we just receiving a feedback on 13 June 2012 for a message we
> sent out on 07 June 2012? 

Because the feedback is sent when the user klicks on the "Spam" button.

> 2. Does an incident like this count 23 times against our Yahoo reputation?

Dunno.

> 3. Is anyone else seeing notification delays coupled with multiple notices
> like this?

We sometimes get LOTS of consecutive complaints when a luser "deletes"
his/her mail with the "spam" button :)

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Jun 13 19:00:16 2012
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:00:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>

* David <dave at fiteyes.com>:

> These 23 notices from Yahoo were from the same user, but for 23 different
> messages from our list over the time period from 07 June 2012 to 13 June
> 2012.

This is the usual "I mistook the spam button for the delete button"

> We received these today. But the user did not remember marking us as spam
> and she said today that she wanted to continue receiving emails from us. If
> she pressed the "this is SPAM/Junk"-Button 23 times today, you would think
> she would remember doing it when we asked her today.

Yahoo! users are truly special.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Jun 13 19:01:24 2012
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:01:24 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
Message-ID: <20120613170124.GF1400@charite.de>

* Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de>:
> * David <dave at fiteyes.com>:
> 
> > These 23 notices from Yahoo were from the same user, but for 23 different
> > messages from our list over the time period from 07 June 2012 to 13 June
> > 2012.
> 
> This is the usual "I mistook the spam button for the delete button"
> 
> > We received these today. But the user did not remember marking us as spam

Please ask here if she still sees those mails.
If not, and they're NOT in the Trash, she used the Spam button!

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp  Wed Jun 13 19:52:47 2012
From: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 02:52:47 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87395z6qvk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

David writes:

 > If she pressed the "this is SPAM/Junk"-Button 23 times today, you
 > would think she would remember doing it when we asked her today.

It could be "fat finger" syndrome: Gmail, for example, puts the Report
Spam button next the Delete Message button.  I wouldn't be surprised
if Yahoo! does the same thing.

Why 23 times and not remember?  I would guess that she marked all the
messages from your list for deletion, and missed the Delete button
just this one time.

If she says she never makes mistakes like that, *shrug*, go ahead and
believe her and write it off as gremlins.

 > For someone new to Mailman, this is confusing. But it only seems to happen
 > with Yahoo.

Well, if it seems to be specific to any of the major services, you're
stuck, because they only tell us what they want us to hear.

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Jun 13 19:56:50 2012
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:56:50 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <87395z6qvk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395z6qvk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20120613175650.GQ1400@charite.de>

> It could be "fat finger" syndrome: Gmail, for example, puts the Report
> Spam button next the Delete Message button.  I wouldn't be surprised
> if Yahoo! does the same thing.

Nope (at least not in the German Version)
There are two buttons security clearance in-between.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From subscribe at mccarthyplace.com  Wed Jun 13 20:01:20 2012
From: subscribe at mccarthyplace.com (Brian McCarthy)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:01:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <20120613175650.GQ1400@charite.de>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395z6qvk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20120613175650.GQ1400@charite.de>
Message-ID: <bd1f562f687dc78b45435a8546958dcd@mccarthyplace.com>

US upgraded version (yes I have an account!) its next to the Forward 
button and the 'move to selected folder'

On 2012-06-13 13:56, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
>> It could be "fat finger" syndrome: Gmail, for example, puts the 
>> Report
>> Spam button next the Delete Message button.  I wouldn't be surprised
>> if Yahoo! does the same thing.
>
> Nope (at least not in the German Version)
> There are two buttons security clearance in-between.


From sweepslate at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 23:07:11 2012
From: sweepslate at gmail.com (sweepslate)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 00:07:11 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I can't turn off password reminders for my users
In-Reply-To: <PC195201206130730170812aed8a2bd@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC195201206130730170812aed8a2bd@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4FD900FF.2000606@gmail.com>

> You have to set the "32" bit in new_member_options which you cannot do
> via the web UI. You have to use Mailman's bin/config_list or
> bin/withlist to do this, but due to a bug, that doesn't work in
> Mailman prior to 2.1.15. See
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/865825>.

I'm running version 2.1.14-1, so, from what I understand, I can't set 
this option globbaly, even if:

 > HOWEVER! this is all moot because the list setting send_reminders = No
 > takes precedence over individual user options, and when send_reminders
 > is No, no periodic reminders are sent for the list regardless of user
 > options. I.e., if send_reminders is Yes, individual users can turn
 > their's off, but if it is No, individual users cannot turn their's on.

I was willing to accept that my users wouldn't be able to turn reminders 
on if they wanted to.

Right?

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 14 01:11:50 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:11:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I can't turn off password reminders for my users
In-Reply-To: <4FD900FF.2000606@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201206131611500187312151ad@MSAPIRO>

sweepslate wrote:

>> You have to set the "32" bit in new_member_options which you cannot do
>> via the web UI. You have to use Mailman's bin/config_list or
>> bin/withlist to do this, but due to a bug, that doesn't work in
>> Mailman prior to 2.1.15. See
>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/865825>.
>
>I'm running version 2.1.14-1, so, from what I understand, I can't set 
>this option globbaly, even if:


With 2.1.14-1, you can set the option globally for new lists via
DEFAULT_NEW_MEMBER_OPTIONS in mm_cfg.py and you can set it for a list
with bin/withlist or bin/config_list, but due to the above bug, the
first time any change whatsoever is posted to a list's General Options
GUI, all the new_member_options bits other than the four displayed on
that page will be reset.


> > HOWEVER! this is all moot because the list setting send_reminders = No
> > takes precedence over individual user options, and when send_reminders
> > is No, no periodic reminders are sent for the list regardless of user
> > options. I.e., if send_reminders is Yes, individual users can turn
> > their's off, but if it is No, individual users cannot turn their's on.
>
>I was willing to accept that my users wouldn't be able to turn reminders 
>on if they wanted to.
>
>Right?


Right. If the list's send_reminders is No, no periodic reminders are
sent for that list regardless of any user's option. This does not
preclude a user requesting and receiving a reminder from the options
login page (or in 2.1.15, the private archive login page). On demand
reminders are not affected by send_reminders.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From listserv.receiver at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 00:32:38 2012
From: listserv.receiver at gmail.com (Brian T)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:32:38 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Wiping all mailman data
Message-ID: <CAC_8WOnvfCf9r0zTE=hXxCgvmZ6zcOENdQJ_WZJZciS7OjwCsQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I made some modifications to the Switchboard.py class. I think I probably
broke something that caused some nonsense data to be saved, because now
when I restart mailman (with /etc/init.d/mailman restart), I get the
following in my error log file:

Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325): Traceback (most recent call last):
  2 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):   File
"/var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 278, in <module>
  3 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):      main()
  4 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):   File
"/var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 238, in main
  5 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):      qrunner.run()
  6 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):   File
"/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 71, in run
  7 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):      filecnt = self._oneloop()
  8 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):   File
"/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 95, in _oneloop
  9 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):      files =
self._switchboard.files()
 10 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):   File
"/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 205, in file    s
 11 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):      key = float(when)
 12 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325): ValueError :  invalid literal for
float(): rcvtime

I've since restored the original version of Switchboard.py, but I still get
this error, making me suspect that some bad data has been saved, which is
being reloaded on mailman restart and (eventually) causing this error.

So, I was wondering: what do I need to do to wipe all data that mailman
saves such that mailman is restored to a completely "fresh" state, as if I
had just installed it? I realize this will destroy all mailing lists etc.,
but that's fine.

Thanks!

Brian

From Nick.Donaldson at ad.umanitoba.ca  Wed Jun 13 22:30:45 2012
From: Nick.Donaldson at ad.umanitoba.ca (Nick Donaldson)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:30:45 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange characters in subscriber addresses
Message-ID: <933E896A96716243B4694E3C17E74227052DEF80@UMCE3EXMD01.ad.umanitoba.ca>

Good afternoon folks.

I manage a whole bunch of lists. I need to remove some subscribers from some lists but, there is a problem. When I user dumpdb to see the subscribers, some addresses have a "\r" (backslash "r") at the end. The web interface cannot remove them. Neither can the remove_members command.

Does anyone know of a way to remove subscribers with backslash "r" at the end of the address?

Nick Donaldson
Help & Solutions Centre Consultant
IST Help & Solutions Centre
Client Services
Information Services and Technology
010 Elizabeth Dafoe Library
University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, MB.  R3T 2N2
E-mail: Nick.Donaldson at ad.UManitoba.CA
Phone:   (204) 474-8649
Fax:     (204) 474-7598


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 14 08:45:56 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 23:45:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Wiping all mailman data
In-Reply-To: <CAC_8WOnvfCf9r0zTE=hXxCgvmZ6zcOENdQJ_WZJZciS7OjwCsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520120613234556010918af5ba5@MSAPIRO>

Brian T wrote:
>
>I made some modifications to the Switchboard.py class. I think I probably
>broke something that caused some nonsense data to be saved, because now
>when I restart mailman (with /etc/init.d/mailman restart), I get the
>following in my error log file:
>
>Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325): Traceback (most recent call last):
>  2 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):   File
>"/var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 278, in <module>
>  3 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):      main()
>  4 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):   File
>"/var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 238, in main
>  5 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):      qrunner.run()
>  6 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):   File
>"/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 71, in run
>  7 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):      filecnt = self._oneloop()
>  8 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):   File
>"/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 95, in _oneloop
>  9 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):      files =
>self._switchboard.files()
> 10 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):   File
>"/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 205, in file    s
> 11 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325):      key = float(when)
> 12 Jun 13 22:15:29 2012 qrunner(3325): ValueError :  invalid literal for
>float(): rcvtime


I can't tell from the traceback which runner this is so I don't know
which queue or queues has/have the bad file(s), but there is at least
one bad queue entry file name. Names should be of the form
tttttttt+hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.pck where tttttttt is a
timestamp in floating point seconds and
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh is a hex hash digest. You have at
least one filename in at least one queue where tttttttt is the literal
string rcvtime. These queues are directories with names like archive,
in, out, virgin, and so on. Depending on how you installed mailman,
these could be in /var/lib/mailman/qfiles/, or if this is a
RedHat/CentOS package, /var/spool/mailman/.


>I've since restored the original version of Switchboard.py, but I still get
>this error, making me suspect that some bad data has been saved, which is
>being reloaded on mailman restart and (eventually) causing this error.
>
>So, I was wondering: what do I need to do to wipe all data that mailman
>saves such that mailman is restored to a completely "fresh" state, as if I
>had just installed it? I realize this will destroy all mailing lists etc.,
>but that's fine.


Just remove the offending files. It won't destroy any lists, It will
just lose the queue entries. Or you could rename the entries properly
and you won't even lose them. To see what they contain, use Mailman's
bin/show_qfiles or bin/dumpdb.

If you really want to initialize everything, remove the contents of
/var/lib/mailman/lists/, /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/,
/var/lib/mailman/archives/public/, /var/lib/mailman/locks/ and
/var/lib/mailman/qfiles/ or whatever they're called in the package you
installed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 14 08:53:19 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 23:53:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange characters in subscriber addresses
In-Reply-To: <933E896A96716243B4694E3C17E74227052DEF80@UMCE3EXMD01.ad.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <PC19520120613235319029618af5c3b@MSAPIRO>

Nick Donaldson wrote:
>
>I manage a whole bunch of lists. I need to remove some subscribers from some lists but, there is a problem. When I user dumpdb to see the subscribers, some addresses have a "\r" (backslash "r") at the end. The web interface cannot remove them. Neither can the remove_members command.
>
>Does anyone know of a way to remove subscribers with backslash "r" at the end of the address?


The answer to your question is "yes". For the answer to the next
question, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/UIA9>.

(Pardon me if this answer seems snarky. I don't intend it to be so.
It's been a long day and I couldn't resist. ;)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Thu Jun 14 09:02:37 2012
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 09:02:37 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange characters in subscriber addresses
In-Reply-To: <933E896A96716243B4694E3C17E74227052DEF80@UMCE3EXMD01.ad.umanitoba.ca>
References: <933E896A96716243B4694E3C17E74227052DEF80@UMCE3EXMD01.ad.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <20120614070237.GD30244@charite.de>

* Nick Donaldson <Nick.Donaldson at ad.umanitoba.ca>:
> Good afternoon folks.
> 
> I manage a whole bunch of lists. I need to remove some subscribers from some lists but, there is a problem. When I user dumpdb to see the subscribers, some addresses have a "\r" (backslash "r") at the end. The web interface cannot remove them. Neither can the remove_members command.
> 
> Does anyone know of a way to remove subscribers with backslash "r" at the end of the address?

I usually use "list_members" to export the addresses to a file, edit that
file, then I use sync_members to sync them back it, thus fixing the worng
addresses.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From sweepslate at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 13:18:15 2012
From: sweepslate at gmail.com (sweepslate)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:18:15 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I can't turn off password reminders for my users
In-Reply-To: <PC195201206131611500187312151ad@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC195201206131611500187312151ad@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4FD9C877.70607@gmail.com>

Thank you :)

From mailman-users at ml.th-h.de  Thu Jun 14 23:29:20 2012
From: mailman-users at ml.th-h.de (Thomas Hochstein)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 23:29:20 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
	abuse complaints
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
Message-ID: <alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>

Ralf Hildebrandt schrieb:

> Yahoo! users are truly special.

AOL users are, too. (They also have a feedback loop.)

-thh

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Fri Jun 15 07:04:47 2012
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 07:04:47 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
Message-ID: <20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>

* Thomas Hochstein <mailman-users at ml.th-h.de>:
> Ralf Hildebrandt schrieb:
> 
> > Yahoo! users are truly special.
> 
> AOL users are, too. (They also have a feedback loop.)

Yeah, and it's even worse, since it tries to weed out all info one
needs to identify the user :(

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun 15 19:04:59 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:04:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.
Message-ID: <4FDB6B3B.7070506@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am happy to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.15. This
release is identical to the 2.1.15rc1 release except for the version
number and the inclusion of a missing part of the HTML installation
manual.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.6 is recommended.
This release should work with Python 2.7, but has not been tested with
that version.

This release includes minor security enhancements, new features and
bug fixes. See the Changelog at
<https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/2.1.15> for more details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman
http://mailman.sourceforge.net/

Mailman 2.1.15 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/

- -- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFP22s7VVuXXpU7hpMRAmqOAJ9rDBhSkYDW2yiaqljJzjQtPX8xgwCfXpS7
4I6YOtQjk4tn/UGrtyCGgIQ=
=rsB+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Fri Jun 15 21:46:43 2012
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 19:46:43 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.15 final
	released.
In-Reply-To: <4FDB6B3B.7070506@msapiro.net>
References: <4FDB6B3B.7070506@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E91F3D@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>I am happy to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.15. This release is identical to the 2.1.15rc1 release except for the version number and >the inclusion of a missing part of the HTML installation manual.

Thanks for this as ever, quality release.  I upgraded in a very short space of time, all working well.

Andrew. 

From dave at fiteyes.com  Sat Jun 16 02:51:21 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:51:21 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt <
Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:

> * Thomas Hochstein <mailman-users at ml.th-h.de>:
> > Ralf Hildebrandt schrieb:
> >
> > > Yahoo! users are truly special.
> >
> > AOL users are, too. (They also have a feedback loop.)
>
> Yeah, and it's even worse, since it tries to weed out all info one
> needs to identify the user :(
>

Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? If
not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?

From terry at fiteyes.com  Sat Jun 16 03:02:11 2012
From: terry at fiteyes.com (Terry Earley)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 19:02:11 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL3ZyvAZ6aVEVZO8ehf-MdOkjen76JG-hy4CRKTQBuTqEfU8Qg@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe VERP is the best solution for AOL and her evil step-sisters if you
can stand the overhead?

Terry Earley


On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 6:51 PM, David <dave at fiteyes.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt <
> Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
>
>> * Thomas Hochstein <mailman-users at ml.th-h.de>:
>> > Ralf Hildebrandt schrieb:
>> >
>> > > Yahoo! users are truly special.
>> >
>> > AOL users are, too. (They also have a feedback loop.)
>>
>> Yeah, and it's even worse, since it tries to weed out all info one
>> needs to identify the user :(
>>
>
> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? If
> not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?
>

From mark at bradakis.com  Sat Jun 16 03:30:31 2012
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 19:30:31 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDBE1B7.2000906@bradakis.com>

> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? If
> not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?
>
I set personalization to yes and have something like the following in 
the non-digest
footers:

Unsubscribe: 
%(web_page_url)soptions%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s/%(user_address)s

Now if only there was a way to figure out who the braindead, clueless 
mouse pilots
are who flag digests as spam.

mjb.



From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Jun 16 10:14:14 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 17:14:14 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87haubvfl5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

David writes:

 > Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop?

Not for sure.  Over time, they seem redact ever more information from
the report.

 > If not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?

Why would they care?  Customers rarely remember accidently hitting the
spam button (or rarely admit it -- even your user who wants your mail
doesn't remember doing so), although *we* can be pretty sure they do
so frequently.  So it's easy for them to blame the lists, saying that
the lists have passed spam, and the lists are just trying to shift
blame to the users.  So the big ISPs for "nontechnical users" maintain
a position of "fix your spam problem and you'll be OK" to some degree.
And the complaining user doesn't have a problem any more (not with
your list) since it's blocked.  Few non-technical users consider such
severe reaction to spam inappropriate, as far as I can tell.  And
blocking mail costs them nothing in terms of real resources, since
there's so much genuine spam out there.

OTOH, as far as I can tell, the big ISPs consider lists competition,
not complements (and I think they're correct[1] -- they want users
using their web fora).  So they have little incentive to allocate
resources to making lists work smoothly.


Footnotes: 
[1]  Barry is only half-joking when he says he hopes Mailman 3 will
kill web fora.  That's not going to happen, for a variety of reasons,
but Mailman 3 will put lists on a much more even footing with the web
fora.


From odhiambo at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 11:31:46 2012
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 12:31:46 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.15 final
	released.
In-Reply-To: <4FDB6B3B.7070506@msapiro.net>
References: <4FDB6B3B.7070506@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WP+sdeqZ4cV7=doRcqfZXTtaW9p5VoBEaj418YKq6gbXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I am happy to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.15. This
> release is identical to the 2.1.15rc1 release except for the version
> number and the inclusion of a missing part of the HTML installation
> manual.
>
> Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.6 is recommended.
> This release should work with Python 2.7, but has not been tested with
> that version.
>
>
I have tested it with Python 2.7 and I have not encountered any problems.
I have been running a live site on Python 2.7 with 2.1.14, 2.1.15rc and now
I am installing 2.1.15.



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sat Jun 16 18:02:48 2012
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 12:02:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDCAE28.9080600@Damon-Family.org>

On 6/15/12 8:51 PM, David wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt <
> Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
>
>> * Thomas Hochstein <mailman-users at ml.th-h.de>:
>>> Ralf Hildebrandt schrieb:
>>>
>>>> Yahoo! users are truly special.
>>> AOL users are, too. (They also have a feedback loop.)
>> Yeah, and it's even worse, since it tries to weed out all info one
>> needs to identify the user :(
>>
> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? If
> not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?
>
They DON'T expect you to unsubscribe the user who marked you as spam,
but to stop the "spammer" who is sending out the email marked as spam.
The whole system is based on the premise that the recipient (their
customer) is totally innocent, and the send (your list) is the guilty
party. They are telling you, as an ISP, to stop your customer (your
list) from sending "SPAM". They are totally missing that their customer
at a previous point ASKED for the email (at least I am presuming you
haven't bypassed the safeguards built into Mailman to avoid abuse) and
now has used the "Mark as spam" button as a attempt to unsubscribe
because they can't (or won't) figure out the proper way to do it.

-- 
Richard Damon


From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Sat Jun 16 18:20:58 2012
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:20:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
	abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <4FDCAE28.9080600@Damon-Family.org>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FDCAE28.9080600@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <72E152F9-8084-478C-A5CE-420DA71F5391@stonejongleux.com>


On Jun 16, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

> On 6/15/12 8:51 PM, David wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt <
>> Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
>> 
>>> * Thomas Hochstein <mailman-users at ml.th-h.de>:
>>>> Ralf Hildebrandt schrieb:
>>>> 
>>>>> Yahoo! users are truly special.
>>>> AOL users are, too. (They also have a feedback loop.)
>>> Yeah, and it's even worse, since it tries to weed out all info one
>>> needs to identify the user :(
>>> 
>> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? If
>> not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?
>> 
> They DON'T expect you to unsubscribe the user who marked you as spam,
> but to stop the "spammer" who is sending out the email marked as spam.
> The whole system is based on the premise that the recipient (their
> customer) is totally innocent, and the send (your list) is the guilty
> party. They are telling you, as an ISP, to stop your customer (your
> list) from sending "SPAM". They are totally missing that their customer
> at a previous point ASKED for the email (at least I am presuming you
> haven't bypassed the safeguards built into Mailman to avoid abuse) and
> now has used the "Mark as spam" button as a attempt to unsubscribe
> because they can't (or won't) figure out the proper way to do it.


Sad to say, that does appear to be how AOL thinks. Their customers never make mistakes, etc. If a customer clicked "Mark as spam", then it's spam and that point is not open to discussion.

It's been a long while since I've received an AOL spam report but despite their redacting, I can usually figure out who did it my some sleuthing through the mail server logs. My policy for AOL users is straightforward and ruthless: do it once and you get banned from my lists and my server. I banned my cousin once (and in typical AOLuser fashion, denied clicking the button - and he used to work for AOL!).

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/




From terry at fiteyes.com  Sat Jun 16 18:52:08 2012
From: terry at fiteyes.com (Terry Earley)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 10:52:08 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <72E152F9-8084-478C-A5CE-420DA71F5391@stonejongleux.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FDCAE28.9080600@Damon-Family.org>
	<72E152F9-8084-478C-A5CE-420DA71F5391@stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <CAL3ZyvDkZg4E_A0DiphBBk5RXNDNYYaFeUS8wFyc-U_rUWOTVw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I can usually figure out who did it my some sleuthing through the mail
> server logs.
>
I would be very interested to know how you track these down from the logs.
Have you or anyone used VERP so AOL cannot mung that email address?

Terry

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Larry Stone <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com>wrote:

>
> On Jun 16, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>
> > On 6/15/12 8:51 PM, David wrote:
> >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt <
> >> Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>> * Thomas Hochstein <mailman-users at ml.th-h.de>:
> >>>> Ralf Hildebrandt schrieb:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Yahoo! users are truly special.
> >>>> AOL users are, too. (They also have a feedback loop.)
> >>> Yeah, and it's even worse, since it tries to weed out all info one
> >>> needs to identify the user :(
> >>>
> >> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? If
> >> not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?
> >>
> > They DON'T expect you to unsubscribe the user who marked you as spam,
> > but to stop the "spammer" who is sending out the email marked as spam.
> > The whole system is based on the premise that the recipient (their
> > customer) is totally innocent, and the send (your list) is the guilty
> > party. They are telling you, as an ISP, to stop your customer (your
> > list) from sending "SPAM". They are totally missing that their customer
> > at a previous point ASKED for the email (at least I am presuming you
> > haven't bypassed the safeguards built into Mailman to avoid abuse) and
> > now has used the "Mark as spam" button as a attempt to unsubscribe
> > because they can't (or won't) figure out the proper way to do it.
>
>
> Sad to say, that does appear to be how AOL thinks. Their customers never
> make mistakes, etc. If a customer clicked "Mark as spam", then it's spam
> and that point is not open to discussion.
>
> It's been a long while since I've received an AOL spam report but despite
> their redacting, I can usually figure out who did it my some sleuthing
> through the mail server logs. My policy for AOL users is straightforward
> and ruthless: do it once and you get banned from my lists and my server. I
> banned my cousin once (and in typical AOLuser fashion, denied clicking the
> button - and he used to work for AOL!).
>
> --
> Larry Stone
> lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
> http://www.stonejongleux.com/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/terry%40fiteyes.com
>

From geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Sat Jun 16 20:51:03 2012
From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 21:51:03 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <72E152F9-8084-478C-A5CE-420DA71F5391@stonejongleux.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FDCAE28.9080600@Damon-Family.org>
	<72E152F9-8084-478C-A5CE-420DA71F5391@stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206162148150.3310@data.home>

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, Larry Stone wrote:

> Sad to say, that does appear to be how AOL thinks. Their customers never 
> make mistakes, etc. If a customer clicked "Mark as spam", then it's spam 
> and that point is not open to discussion.

They're not the only one.  Roadrunner blocked all the mail from the server 
I used to administer because of one user on one list.

Fortunately, subscribing to their feedback loop fixed that.  But they 
weren't willing to give the user's address either.  I managed to figure it 
out but that's not the point.

Geoff.


From dave at fiteyes.com  Sat Jun 16 21:04:09 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:04:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.
In-Reply-To: <4FDB6B3B.7070506@msapiro.net>
References: <4FDB6B3B.7070506@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU4gQFLvZXbOhiHshYB6f68xzQivC42mPY=k8XEbatx6dQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I am happy to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.15.



How would I update from the version of Mailman 2.1.14 from Ubuntu's
repository (on Ubuntu 12.04)?

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Sat Jun 16 21:54:53 2012
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 21:54:53 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAL3ZyvAZ6aVEVZO8ehf-MdOkjen76JG-hy4CRKTQBuTqEfU8Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL3ZyvAZ6aVEVZO8ehf-MdOkjen76JG-hy4CRKTQBuTqEfU8Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120616195453.GF30335@charite.de>

* Terry Earley <terry at fiteyes.com>:

> Maybe VERP is the best solution for AOL and her evil step-sisters if you
> can stand the overhead?

Yep.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Sat Jun 16 22:04:12 2012
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:04:12 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU4gQFLvZXbOhiHshYB6f68xzQivC42mPY=k8XEbatx6dQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FDB6B3B.7070506@msapiro.net>
	<CAH=dxU4gQFLvZXbOhiHshYB6f68xzQivC42mPY=k8XEbatx6dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E92C2E@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>

David wrote:

>On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

>> I am happy to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.15.

>How would I update from the version of Mailman 2.1.14 from Ubuntu's repository (on Ubuntu 12.04)?

Ubuntu won't update this package by the normal route until the next version of Ubuntu is released (probably 12.10).  There are a couple of options:

1.  Build Mailman from source and run the version you want with the patches you want.

2.  Look at using packages from the testing/unstable Debian archives.

I have done option 1, build my own Mailman from source with the Htdig search engine patches.

Andrew. 

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Sat Jun 16 22:15:59 2012
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:15:59 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120616201559.GS30335@charite.de>

* David <dave at fiteyes.com>:

> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? 

Of course, just use verp :)
-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Sat Jun 16 23:00:07 2012
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 16:00:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
	abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <20120616201559.GS30335@charite.de>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120616201559.GS30335@charite.de>
Message-ID: <2162B1C7-4863-42BC-97E3-393D380BB1D1@stonejongleux.com>



On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:

> * David <dave at fiteyes.com>:
> 
>> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? 
> 
> Of course, just use verp :)
> -- 
> 

The last I knew, AOL redacts the user name in their notice. In other words, a something sent to this list marked as spam will show it as sent from mailman-users+redacted at python.org.

I trace then from message ID and matching to my Postfix logs.

-- Larry Stone
   lstone19 at stonejongleux.com

From dave at fiteyes.com  Sun Jun 17 00:14:50 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:14:50 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] what effect does mm_cfg.py setting
 VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES have if personalize (nondigest) is set to NO?
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU6akhrb8-Ebm0RnkrgptO6mCoZaU446T+DPLmB33MZ0aw@mail.gmail.com>

In mm_cfg.py I have these settings:

OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION=Yes
VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes
VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes
VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes

In a list with personalize (nondigest) set to NO, does that mean that all
personalization options, including those above are not in effect?

Next question:

 If I set VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 in mm_cfg.py, does that override any
list-specific settings, or any of the other settings above?

Last question:

# Set this Yes to activate VERP probe for disabling by bounce
VERP_PROBES = No

It sounds like VERP_PROBES enhances automatic disabling by bounce. I assume
I should enable it if I have VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes. Is that
correct?

Thanks

From dave at fiteyes.com  Sun Jun 17 00:20:42 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:20:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <2162B1C7-4863-42BC-97E3-393D380BB1D1@stonejongleux.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120616201559.GS30335@charite.de>
	<2162B1C7-4863-42BC-97E3-393D380BB1D1@stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU6rbYe-1hi7RfgM_3kcarvAE9kWfj241QdgfA51249JSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Larry Stone <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de>
> wrote:
>
> > * David <dave at fiteyes.com>:
> >
> >> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop?
>
>
> I trace from message ID and matching to my Postfix logs.
>

Thanks, but I'm not sure how to do that. The message ID we get from AOL is
something like "snt0-p5-eas297E02BC8F051EF1AAB0BFD3FA0 at phx.gbl" and it is
related to the sender. This same ID will show up in the postfix log for
every outgoing copy of that message from that sender.

Could you explain how you trace from the message ID to your Postfix logs?
(Maybe you use a different message ID?)

From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Sun Jun 17 00:46:18 2012
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 17:46:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
	abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU6rbYe-1hi7RfgM_3kcarvAE9kWfj241QdgfA51249JSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120616201559.GS30335@charite.de>
	<2162B1C7-4863-42BC-97E3-393D380BB1D1@stonejongleux.com>
	<CAH=dxU6rbYe-1hi7RfgM_3kcarvAE9kWfj241QdgfA51249JSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E707B425-3D6C-4F5B-ACC1-A37106FFEE19@stonejongleux.com>





On Jun 16, 2012, at 5:20 PM, David <dave at fiteyes.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Larry Stone <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
> 
> > * David <dave at fiteyes.com>:
> >
> >> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop?
> 
> 
> I trace from message ID and matching to my Postfix logs.
> 
> Thanks, but I'm not sure how to do that. The message ID we get from AOL is something like "snt0-p5-eas297E02BC8F051EF1AAB0BFD3FA0 at phx.gbl" and it is related to the sender. This same ID will show up in the postfix log for every outgoing copy of that message from that sender.
> 
> Could you explain how you trace from the message ID to your Postfix logs? (Maybe you use a different message ID?)-

It's been a while so I must be misremembering. If not the message ID, then the postfix queue ID which IIRC is in the Received headers sent back by AOL. But looking back at my saved AOL spam reports, it's been over three years since a list subscriber did that to me so things may well have changed.

> Larry Stone
   larry at stonejongleux.com (and others)
   Sent from my iPad

From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Jun 17 01:23:34 2012
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:23:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
	abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <2162B1C7-4863-42BC-97E3-393D380BB1D1@stonejongleux.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120616201559.GS30335@charite.de>
	<2162B1C7-4863-42BC-97E3-393D380BB1D1@stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <104E3904-D507-4FFB-97E1-ECC9A0F37A61@fmp.com>

If you look carefully at the full headers in the AOL notice you'll see that not all the VERP addresses are redacted. I believe the Sender header isn't redacted. I haven't visited the issue recently since I have a script on my servers which extracts the subscriber address from these AOL notices and automatically unsubscribes it. 

Lindsay Haisley
(512) 259-1190 (land line)
(512) 496-7118 (mobile)
Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Larry Stone <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
> 
>> * David <dave at fiteyes.com>:
>> 
>>> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? 
>> 
>> Of course, just use verp :)
>> -- 
>> 
> 
> The last I knew, AOL redacts the user name in their notice. In other words, a something sent to this list marked as spam will show it as sent from mailman-users+redacted at python.org.
> 
> I trace then from message ID and matching to my Postfix logs.
> 
> -- Larry Stone
>   lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com

From terry at fiteyes.com  Sun Jun 17 04:14:06 2012
From: terry at fiteyes.com (Terry Earley)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:14:06 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full
	personalization enabled
Message-ID: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>

We are getting pretty frustrated with AOL. Their feedback report redacts
addresses, so we enabled VERP and full personalization so the "envelope"
can send us the actual address. No good:

Return-Path: <all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com>

To: redacted at aol.com
Errors-To: all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com
Sender: all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com

Terry
fiteyes.com

From brad at shub-internet.org  Sun Jun 17 04:19:46 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 19:19:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
	abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU6rbYe-1hi7RfgM_3kcarvAE9kWfj241QdgfA51249JSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120616201559.GS30335@charite.de>
	<2162B1C7-4863-42BC-97E3-393D380BB1D1@stonejongleux.com>
	<CAH=dxU6rbYe-1hi7RfgM_3kcarvAE9kWfj241QdgfA51249JSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F08FD420-037F-4BF3-9538-0D3127E8C953@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:20 PM, David wrote:

> Thanks, but I'm not sure how to do that. The message ID we get from AOL is
> something like "snt0-p5-eas297E02BC8F051EF1AAB0BFD3FA0 at phx.gbl" and it is
> related to the sender. This same ID will show up in the postfix log for
> every outgoing copy of that message from that sender.
> 
> Could you explain how you trace from the message ID to your Postfix logs?
> (Maybe you use a different message ID?)

When you enable Full Personalization on Mailman, it will generate a unique message for each and every recipient, with a unique message-id.  If that message-id is not obscured by the Feedback Loop, then you can tell which user is at fault.  For a while, they did not redact the footers that were included in the message sent back, so you could personalize the footers and that would give you an alternate place to look.

I was the first Internet Mail Operations person ever hired by AOL and I was responsible for implementing the anti-spam measures that we had in place to prevent spam from getting onto the system, but regretfully the group that handles spam reports from AOL users is done by a different department.  Back when David O'Donnell was running that shop, they did a really good job.  But things have gone way down hill ever since.

I have long since gone past the point where I consider them to be a complete write-off, despite the fact that even my own wife still uses AOL.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 17 07:00:18 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:00:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU4gQFLvZXbOhiHshYB6f68xzQivC42mPY=k8XEbatx6dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952012061622001801437dc7f8a1@Notebook-09>

David wrote:
>
>How would I update from the version of Mailman 2.1.14 from Ubuntu's
>repository (on Ubuntu 12.04)?


If you are really interested in keeping up with GNU Mailman project
releases as they are released, I suggest you back up your Mailman
lists/ and archives/ directories, remove your package and install from
source. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/2oA9>.

However, see <https://launchpad.net/debian/sid/+source/mailman>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Jun 17 06:58:46 2012
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 23:58:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

I have no idea why AOL wants to make it difficult for list
administrators to unsubscribe people who don't want to be subscribed and
who complain to AOL about list posts being spam.  The only explanations
that come to mind are very sinister ones, but given the way things are
going these days, it may indeed be that AOL is truly trying to break the
Internet mail system so that they and their ilk can try to rebuild it
according to their own (for profit) model.

As of April 4, I was still receiving AOL's Email Feedback Reports with
the sender and return-path addresses improperly redacted in included
subject emails so that I could parse out the complaining subscriber.
e.g.:

Return-Path: <redacted-bounces+johndoe=aol.com at lists.local-list.com>

These reports are fairly rare these days, and I haven't received any of
them from AOL since then, although I'm subscribed to their reports for
both of my servers.  If AOL is now fully redacting subscriber
information then indeed perhaps the only way to identify the complaining
subscriber is by tracing the Message ID through the mail log files.
Another alternative might be to add a header to outgoing messages to
include the subscriber address as a hash in an X-something header.
Assuming the management of AOL complaining subscribers via their Email
Feedback Reports is automated at the list server (as it is here) it
should be relatively fast and simple to extract the salt chars from the
hash and run a crypt on each subscriber address to see if it matches.

Is there anyone with the Mailman project with sufficiently informed
inside contacts at AOL who could find out exactly what's going on with
AOL (and Earthlink, which I believe uses the same system) and why
they're doing this?

It might be worth noting that one of the several lists I host will not
accept subscriptions from AOL addresses because of their problem
policies.  What with gmail accounts being free and easy to get, AOL is
simply cutting themselves out of the loop in the long run with their
policies.  No loss there!

On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 20:14 -0600, Terry Earley wrote:
> We are getting pretty frustrated with AOL. Their feedback report redacts
> addresses, so we enabled VERP and full personalization so the "envelope"
> can send us the actual address. No good:
> 
> Return-Path: <all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com>
> 
> To: redacted at aol.com
> Errors-To: all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com
> Sender: all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com
> 
> Terry
> fiteyes.com
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Never expect the people who caused a problem
FMP Computer Services |  to solve it." - Albert Einstein
512-259-1190          |        
http://www.fmp.com    |

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Everything works if you let it"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |          --- The Roadie
http://www.fmp.com    |


From dave at fiteyes.com  Sun Jun 17 07:10:47 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 01:10:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.
In-Reply-To: <PC1952012061622001801437dc7f8a1@Notebook-09>
References: <CAH=dxU4gQFLvZXbOhiHshYB6f68xzQivC42mPY=k8XEbatx6dQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1952012061622001801437dc7f8a1@Notebook-09>
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU4-O+eSLb_wMEsiX7cC+aNhe=DRoiGa31P+TyRE8DyN7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:00 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> David wrote:
> >
> >How would I update from the version of Mailman 2.1.14 from Ubuntu's
> >repository (on Ubuntu 12.04)?
>
>
> If you are really interested in keeping up with GNU Mailman project
> releases as they are released,
>

This particular release has a bug fix that is of interest to us. But in
general, we are probably still too inexperienced with Mailman to try to
keep up with new releases as they are released. Maybe we'll be ready in the
Mailman 3.0 timeframe.



> However, see <https://launchpad.net/debian/sid/+source/mailman>.
>

Very timely. Thank you!

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 17 07:25:06 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:25:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] what effect does mm_cfg.py
	settingVERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES have if personalize
	(nondigest) is set to NO?
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU6akhrb8-Ebm0RnkrgptO6mCoZaU446T+DPLmB33MZ0aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520120616222506097577de37d5@Notebook-09>

David wrote:

>In mm_cfg.py I have these settings:
>
>OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION=Yes
>VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes
>VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes
>VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
>
>In a list with personalize (nondigest) set to NO, does that mean that all
>personalization options, including those above are not in effect?


It means that posts from the lis to members are not personalized so the

VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes

setting has no effect on this list. It has no effect/relation to the
other 3 settings.


>Next question:
>
> If I set VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 in mm_cfg.py, does that override any
>list-specific settings, or any of the other settings above?


It means that every post and every message to a LIST-owner will be
verped regardless of other settings.


>Last question:
>
># Set this Yes to activate VERP probe for disabling by bounce
>VERP_PROBES = No
>
>It sounds like VERP_PROBES enhances automatic disabling by bounce. I assume
>I should enable it if I have VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes. Is that
>correct?


It has nothing to do with VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES. It means that
when a user's bounce score reaches the threshold, the score will be
reset and a VERPed probe message will be sent and the user's delivery
will be disabled only if the probe bounces.  If you set this to Yes
and there is some MTA issue preventing correct delivery of VERPed
bounces, users will never be disabled by bounce which is why the
default is No.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Sun Jun 17 06:57:31 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 23:57:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1339909051.11425.29.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

I have no idea why AOL wants to make it difficult for list
administrators to unsubscribe people who don't want to be subscribed and
who complain to AOL about list posts being spam.  The only explanations
that come to mind are very sinister ones, but given the way things are
going these days, it may indeed be that AOL is truly trying to break the
Internet mail system so that they and their ilk can try to rebuild it
according to their own (for profit) model.

As of April 4, I was still receiving AOL's Email Feedback Reports with
the sender and return-path addresses improperly redacted in included
subject emails so that I could parse out the complaining subscriber.
e.g.:

Return-Path: <redacted-bounces+johndoe=aol.com at lists.local-list.com>

These reports are fairly rare these days, and I haven't received any of
them from AOL since then, although I'm subscribed to their reports for
both of my servers.  If AOL is now fully redacting subscriber
information then indeed perhaps the only way to identify the complaining
subscriber is by tracing the Message ID through the mail log files.
Another alternative might be to add a header to outgoing messages to
include the subscriber address as a hash in an X-something header.
Assuming the management of AOL complaining subscribers via their Email
Feedback Reports is automated at the list server (as it is here) it
should be relatively fast and simple to extract the salt chars from the
hash and run a crypt on each subscriber address to see if it matches.

Is there anyone with the Mailman project with sufficiently informed
inside contacts at AOL who could find out exactly what's going on with
AOL (and Earthlink, which I believe uses the same system) and why
they're doing this?

It might be worth noting that one of the several lists I host will not
accept subscriptions from AOL addresses because of their problem
policies.  What with gmail accounts being free and easy to get, AOL is
simply cutting themselves out of the loop in the long run with their
policies.  No loss there!

On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 20:14 -0600, Terry Earley wrote:
> We are getting pretty frustrated with AOL. Their feedback report redacts
> addresses, so we enabled VERP and full personalization so the "envelope"
> can send us the actual address. No good:
> 
> Return-Path: <all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com>
> 
> To: redacted at aol.com
> Errors-To: all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com
> Sender: all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com
> 
> Terry
> fiteyes.com
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Never expect the people who caused a problem
FMP Computer Services |  to solve it." - Albert Einstein
512-259-1190          |        
http://www.fmp.com    |


From dave at fiteyes.com  Sun Jun 17 07:48:46 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 01:48:46 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] what effect does mm_cfg.py
 settingVERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES have if personalize (nondigest) is set
 to NO?
In-Reply-To: <PC19520120616222506097577de37d5@Notebook-09>
References: <CAH=dxU6akhrb8-Ebm0RnkrgptO6mCoZaU446T+DPLmB33MZ0aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC19520120616222506097577de37d5@Notebook-09>
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU5XL9e+F1sr52bWPkkmgPCL=O4YAkpDP74g3U35xkU1rg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

>
> David wrote:
>
> >In mm_cfg.py I have these settings:
> >
> >OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION=Yes
> >VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes
> >VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes
> >VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
> >
> >
> > If I set VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 in mm_cfg.py, does that override any
> >list-specific settings, or any of the other settings above?
>
>
> It means that every post and every message to a LIST-owner will be
> verped regardless of other settings.
>


And, conversely, if  VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 0 (the default value), but
Full Personalization is enabled, then every post will also be verped.
Correct?

And thanks for your other answers in the above reply.

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sun Jun 17 14:11:51 2012
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 08:11:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and
 abuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <20120616195453.GF30335@charite.de>
References: <CAH=dxU5FTZARsZZTaGQs6gt_sg_hrM=5bd6y1rpLwSYdfuCbZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD8B430.8070602@uni-konstanz.de>
	<CAH=dxU77_muxbswqvADxqCm-cQyiX=bnOEqiVCbXtAJd=Pp3PA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120613170015.GE1400@charite.de>
	<alm.1206142329.855@landroval.ancalagon.de>
	<20120615050447.GE26233@charite.de>
	<CAH=dxU5fFKxtGGKhEXNNbJc3GceV6bO4yM37dQ5E28UaGtU1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL3ZyvAZ6aVEVZO8ehf-MdOkjen76JG-hy4CRKTQBuTqEfU8Qg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120616195453.GF30335@charite.de>
Message-ID: <4FDDC987.1040503@libertytrek.org>

On 2012-06-16 3:54 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
> * Terry Earley<terry at fiteyes.com>:
>> Maybe VERP is the best solution for AOL and her evil step-sisters if you
>> can stand the overhead?

> Yep.

Is it possible to enable VERP *only* for certain domains (like AOL, 
Yahoo, etc)?

From brad at shub-internet.org  Sun Jun 17 15:34:11 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 06:34:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
	full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 16, 2012, at 9:58 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> I have no idea why AOL wants to make it difficult for list
> administrators to unsubscribe people who don't want to be subscribed and
> who complain to AOL about list posts being spam.

I can tell you the reasons that management gave at the time I was working there -- it was all about the privacy of their user.  They said that they wanted to protect the privacy of the person who was complaining.

In fact, when you sign up for the AOL Feedback Loop (as I did years ago for the lists hosted at python.org), the instructions explicitly state that you may not use any information they give you to determine who the affected user is -- they're simply telling you that you have a problem that you need to fix on your end to keep spam from being generated in the first place, and it is not relevant which AOL user is complaining.


Of course, this completely ignores the problem of the AOL user who hits the "This is spam" button without knowing that they did it, or accidentally includes one of your messages when they hit that button on a whole selection of that they want to complain about.

I've even seen people hit the "This is spam" button on individual personal messages that they got from a member of their own family who was of the opposite political party and who was talking about politics.  Imagine your crazy Uncle Joe ranting and raving about some political party member they like/dislike and about whom you feel the opposite, and instead of asking them to stop or just deleting the message, you hit the button that tells AOL that this person spammed you.

And yes, AOL knows full well just how stupid their users are.  But the customer is always right.  They stuck their spear into the soil, and now the shakier the ground that they stand on, the more violently they must hold onto the position that they have committed themselves to.  To do otherwise would mean that they were admitting that they were wrong, which would make them culpable in court.


So, you and I and everyone else on the planet has to suffer because of their stupid policies.

>  The only explanations
> that come to mind are very sinister ones, but given the way things are
> going these days, it may indeed be that AOL is truly trying to break the
> Internet mail system so that they and their ilk can try to rebuild it
> according to their own (for profit) model.

No, they're much too short-sighted for that.  And they're not smart enough for that, either.

You should not assume sinister (but intelligent) motives when plain corporate stupidity will suffice.

> Is there anyone with the Mailman project with sufficiently informed
> inside contacts at AOL who could find out exactly what's going on with
> AOL (and Earthlink, which I believe uses the same system) and why
> they're doing this?

All my contacts are outdated.  Everyone I knew who worked there has long since moved on.  But that doesn't change the reasons that were given at the time, nor the reasons why they continue to follow the same stupid policies.

> It might be worth noting that one of the several lists I host will not
> accept subscriptions from AOL addresses because of their problem
> policies.  What with gmail accounts being free and easy to get, AOL is
> simply cutting themselves out of the loop in the long run with their
> policies.  No loss there!

I'm not surprised.  AOL doesn't care about those small percentages of loss for that one product.  That's trivial compared to the value of the company as a whole if they were to admit that they were wrong with a result of getting their ass dragged into many more court cases.

I know the guy who was the SRE for Gmail, and on the technical side they still have some people who care and have a clue.  I do feel that Google is the Next Great Evil in this world, but that doesn't change the facts of the technical implementation of their mail system relative to AOL.  Of course, that's not saying much?.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Sun Jun 17 16:27:29 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 09:27:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Sun, 2012-06-17 at 06:34 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote:
> I can tell you the reasons that management gave at the time I was
> working there -- it was all about the privacy of their user.  They
> said that they wanted to protect the privacy of the person who was
> complaining.
> 
So what would be the implications of hacking an extra header into
outgoing posts on lists for which personalization is enabled, say
"X-Subdata", with said header containing a hash of the subscriber
address to which the post is directed?

This would, in theory, mostly satisfy AOL's privacy concern since a hash
is a one-way encryption and no one could determine the address unless
they already had access to the name in the form of the subscriber list
so that a hash comparison could be made.

I'm not asking for a feature from the devs since I can hack this myself,
just perhaps some insight into the implications for a list host that
handles no more than half a dozen small mailing lists, each with 1000
subscribers or less.

Hacking the message ID out of mail logs to identify the subscriber seems
somewhat chancier and more difficult, since mail logs roll over and
eventually disappear from the system.  All this stuff is scripted here,
and works unattended to unsubscribe complaining subscribers, so the
overhead is in programming, with a minimal amount in execution time.	

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Real programmers use butterflies"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |       - xkcd
http://www.fmp.com    |


From bsfinkel at att.net  Sun Jun 17 21:13:27 2012
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S, Finkel)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:13:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU4gQFLvZXbOhiHshYB6f68xzQivC42mPY=k8XEbatx6dQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FDB6B3B.7070506@msapiro.net>
	<CAH=dxU4gQFLvZXbOhiHshYB6f68xzQivC42mPY=k8XEbatx6dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDE2C57.8090700@att.net>

On 6/16/2012 2:04 PM, David wrote:
> How would I update from the version of Mailman 2.1.14 from Ubuntu's
> repository (on Ubuntu 12.04)?
You can do what I did when I administered a Mailman system running on
Ubuntu - I generated my own package from an existing Ubuntu package and
the new SourceForge source.
--Barry Finkel


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 17 23:55:12 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:55:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] what effect does mm_cfg.py
	settingVERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIEShave if personalize
	(nondigest) is set to NO?
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5XL9e+F1sr52bWPkkmgPCL=O4YAkpDP74g3U35xkU1rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201206171455120460d547f9d8@Notebook-09>

David wrote:
>
>On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> David wrote:
>>
>> >In mm_cfg.py I have these settings:
>> >
>> >OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION=Yes
>> >VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes
>> >VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes
>> >VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
>> >
>> >
>> > If I set VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 in mm_cfg.py, does that override any
>> >list-specific settings, or any of the other settings above?
>>
>>
>> It means that every post and every message to a LIST-owner will be
>> verped regardless of other settings.
>>
>
>
>And, conversely, if  VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 0 (the default value), but
>Full Personalization is enabled, then every post will also be verped.
>Correct?


Every post from the list(s) with personalize set to Yes or Full
Personalization will be VERPed to the regular (non-digest) recipients.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 18 00:33:21 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:33:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop
	andabuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <4FDDC987.1040503@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <PC1952012061715332101805bea84c9@Notebook-09>

Tanstaafl wrote:
>
>Is it possible to enable VERP *only* for certain domains (like AOL, 
>Yahoo, etc)?


It would be a somewhat messy hack to Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py to
do it in Mailman. Depending on your MTA, you might be able to do it
there if you have the MTA do the VERPing.

See <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558067> for Postfix and
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558002> for qmail. Note that
these only address enabling VERPing in the MTA, not limiting the
domains to which it applies.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From terry at fiteyes.com  Mon Jun 18 00:44:16 2012
From: terry at fiteyes.com (Terry Earley)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:44:16 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop
	andabuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <PC1952012061715332101805bea84c9@Notebook-09>
References: <4FDDC987.1040503@libertytrek.org>
	<PC1952012061715332101805bea84c9@Notebook-09>
Message-ID: <CAL3ZyvAdT9QWc3muP2rCoUnrRbGqpi30aHoM2=y1F=cwvt4eKg@mail.gmail.com>

>Is it possible to enable VERP *only* for certain domains (like AOL,
>Yahoo, etc)?

Now that AOL also redacts return path, VERPing alone will not help much for
them.

Return-Path: <redacted-bounces at discuss.fiteyes.com>

Full Personalization could give you more to trace, since each post is send
individually.

Terry Earley
FitEyes


On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Tanstaafl wrote:
> >
> >Is it possible to enable VERP *only* for certain domains (like AOL,
> >Yahoo, etc)?
>
>
> It would be a somewhat messy hack to Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py to
> do it in Mailman. Depending on your MTA, you might be able to do it
> there if you have the MTA do the VERPing.
>
> See <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558067> for Postfix and
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558002> for qmail. Note that
> these only address enabling VERPing in the MTA, not limiting the
> domains to which it applies.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/terry%40fiteyes.com
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 18 01:13:44 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:13:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback
	loopandabuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAL3ZyvAdT9QWc3muP2rCoUnrRbGqpi30aHoM2=y1F=cwvt4eKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952012061716134405255bea8639@Notebook-09>

Terry Earley wrote:

>>Is it possible to enable VERP *only* for certain domains (like AOL,
>>Yahoo, etc)?
>
>Now that AOL also redacts return path, VERPing alone will not help much for
>them.
>
>Return-Path: <redacted-bounces at discuss.fiteyes.com>


Is that a redact of a VERPed Return-Path:? It doesn't look like it. It
looks like

Return-Path: <listname-bounces at discuss.fiteyes.com>

was changed to 

Return-Path: <redacted-bounces at discuss.fiteyes.com>

and doesn't answer the question of what

Return-Path: <listname-bounces+aol_user=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com>

would be changed to.


>Full Personalization could give you more to trace, since each post is send
>individually.


And if Mailman does VERP, messages are sent individually too, and all
personalized messages are sent individually, not just "fully
personalized" ones.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dave at fiteyes.com  Mon Jun 18 01:44:53 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 19:44:53 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback
	loopandabuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <PC1952012061716134405255bea8639@Notebook-09>
References: <CAL3ZyvAdT9QWc3muP2rCoUnrRbGqpi30aHoM2=y1F=cwvt4eKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1952012061716134405255bea8639@Notebook-09>
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU5cDSN9tJdONd779QzPEX445DrHkLc6kktfRpgXB6G8PQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 7:13 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Terry Earley wrote:
>
> >>Is it possible to enable VERP *only* for certain domains (like AOL,
> >>Yahoo, etc)?
> >
> >Now that AOL also redacts return path, VERPing alone will not help much
> for
> >them.
> >
> >Return-Path: <redacted-bounces at discuss.fiteyes.com>
>
>
> Is that a redact of a VERPed Return-Path:? It doesn't look like it. It
> looks like
>
> Return-Path: <listname-bounces at discuss.fiteyes.com>
>
> was changed to
>
> Return-Path: <redacted-bounces at discuss.fiteyes.com>
>
> and doesn't answer the question of what
>
> Return-Path: <listname-bounces+aol_user=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com>
>
> would be changed to.
>
>

Here are some example headers. The first is from a message from the list
sent to me, as a subscriber to the list. (I could post the entire headers
if it would be of interest.)

Return-Path: <all-bounces+dave=fiteyes.com at discuss.fiteyes.com>
Subject: [FitEyes Discussion 715] Re: First self IOP measurement done


An AOL member complained about this same message today.

The return path in  the report from the AOL Feedback Loop gets redacted to:

Return-Path: <all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com>


I can paste the entire report from the AOL Feedback Loop if that would be
of interest. But they redact everything now, including even items without
the receiver's address such as:

List-Unsubscribe: <http://discuss.fiteyes.com/m/options/all>,
 <mailto:all-request at discuss.fiteyes.com?subject=unsubscribe>

which gets changed to:

List-Unsubscribe: <http://discuss.fiteyes.com/m/options/all>,
 redacted at discuss.fiteyes.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 18 02:02:16 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:02:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback
 loopandabuse complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5cDSN9tJdONd779QzPEX445DrHkLc6kktfRpgXB6G8PQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvAdT9QWc3muP2rCoUnrRbGqpi30aHoM2=y1F=cwvt4eKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1952012061716134405255bea8639@Notebook-09>
	<CAH=dxU5cDSN9tJdONd779QzPEX445DrHkLc6kktfRpgXB6G8PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDE7008.4060601@msapiro.net>

On 6/17/2012 4:44 PM, David wrote:

> An AOL member complained about this same message today.
> 
> The return path in  the report from the AOL Feedback Loop gets redacted to:
> 
> Return-Path: <all-bounces+redacted=aol.com at discuss.fiteyes.com>


OK, that answers that question, so it would seem that Lindsay Haisley's
suggestion of hacking in a custom header with a hash of the user's
address that doesn't look like an email address would work, but it would
be a violation of the terms of service for the feedback loop according
to Brad Knowles:

> In fact, when you sign up for the AOL Feedback Loop (as I did years ago for the lists hosted at python.org), the instructions explicitly state that you may not use any information they give you to determine who the affected user is ... 

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Jun 18 05:28:24 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 22:28:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personal patch
Message-ID: <1339990104.26588.23.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

Can someone give me some feedback on the following patch to
SMTPDirect.py - whatever I've overlooked, or done that might be
dangerous?

The purpose of this patch is to insert a header, "X-subdata" into VERPed
emails which won't be flagged and redacted by AOL's brain-dead "Email
Feedback Report" system, and will continue to allow my local scripts to
unsubscribe subscribers who hit the "Report Spam" button on their AOL
mail UI.

The content of the header is an MD5 hash of the receiving subscriber's
email address - the same information contained in the Sender and
Return-path headers, normally munged ("redacted") by AOL.  The hope is
that this hash will address AOL's privacy concerns, and/or else fall
beneath the intelligence level of their scrutiny.

The address hash can be compared against the list of subscribers to the
list, identified in several (improperly redacted or un-redacted)
headers.

I'm not submitting this as a suggested patch for Mailman, but just
asking for some feedback from people who know the code better than I do.

--- SMTPDirect.py.orig	2012-06-17 17:16:25.000000000 -0500
+++ SMTPDirect.py	2012-06-17 21:17:25.000000000 -0500
@@ -43,6 +43,8 @@
 from email.Utils import formataddr
 from email.Header import Header
 from email.Charset import Charset
+from md5crypt import md5crypt
+from random import choice
 
 DOT = '.'
 
@@ -307,6 +309,9 @@
                  'host'   : DOT.join(rdomain),
                  }
             envsender = '%s@%s' % ((mm_cfg.VERP_FORMAT % d), DOT.join(bdomain))
+            saltmarsh = "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrsyuvwxyz1234567890./"
+            if not msgdata.has_key("X-subdata"):
+                msgcopy["X-Subdata"] = md5crypt(rmailbox + "@" + DOT.join(rdomain), choice(saltmarsh) + choice(saltmarsh)) 
         if mlist.personalize == 2:
             # When fully personalizing, we want the To address to point to the
             # recipient, not to the mailing list



From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Jun 18 05:40:33 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 20:40:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
	full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <055A395E-7103-45B7-9241-369C615F681A@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 17, 2012, at 7:27 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> So what would be the implications of hacking an extra header into
> outgoing posts on lists for which personalization is enabled, say
> "X-Subdata", with said header containing a hash of the subscriber
> address to which the post is directed?

You could do this, but the question is whether or not that header would survive through to the complaint you get via their feedback loop.  I doubt that it would, but there's only one way to know for sure.

> I'm not asking for a feature from the devs since I can hack this myself,
> just perhaps some insight into the implications for a list host that
> handles no more than half a dozen small mailing lists, each with 1000
> subscribers or less.

It would be simple enough to write a milter that would work with postfix and sendmail to implement such a feature, and I strongly suspect that someone else has probably already done this.  You just need to find it and install it.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Jun 18 05:47:13 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 22:47:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <055A395E-7103-45B7-9241-369C615F681A@shub-internet.org>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<055A395E-7103-45B7-9241-369C615F681A@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <1339991233.26588.28.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Sun, 2012-06-17 at 20:40 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote:
> You could do this, but the question is whether or not that header
> would survive through to the complaint you get via their feedback
> loop.  I doubt that it would, but there's only one way to know for
> sure.
> 
My observation has been that the "offending" message returned by AOL's 
feedback system contains all headers in the original message, with a
rather scattershot number of tokens "redacted".

I hacked the code and submitted a patch separately for review, if anyone
wants to review it.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The difference between a duck is because
FMP Computer Services |    one leg is both the same"
512-259-1190          |     - Anonymous
http://www.fmp.com    |


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 18 06:22:41 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:22:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personal patch
In-Reply-To: <1339990104.26588.23.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201206172122410278c27dd93f@Notebook-09>

Lindsay Haisley wrote:

>Can someone give me some feedback on the following patch to
>SMTPDirect.py - whatever I've overlooked, or done that might be
>dangerous?
[...]
>--- SMTPDirect.py.orig	2012-06-17 17:16:25.000000000 -0500
>+++ SMTPDirect.py	2012-06-17 21:17:25.000000000 -0500
>@@ -43,6 +43,8 @@
> from email.Utils import formataddr
> from email.Header import Header
> from email.Charset import Charset
>+from md5crypt import md5crypt
>+from random import choice
> 
> DOT = '.'
> 
>@@ -307,6 +309,9 @@
>                  'host'   : DOT.join(rdomain),
>                  }
>             envsender = '%s@%s' % ((mm_cfg.VERP_FORMAT % d), DOT.join(bdomain))
>+            saltmarsh = "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrsyuvwxyz1234567890./"
>+            if not msgdata.has_key("X-subdata"):
>+                msgcopy["X-Subdata"] = md5crypt(rmailbox + "@" + DOT.join(rdomain), choice(saltmarsh) + choice(saltmarsh)) 


    rmailbox + "@" + DOT.join(rdomain)

just does the inverse of 

    rmailbox, rdomain = Utils.ParseEmail(recip)

So why not just make the above

>+                msgcopy["X-Subdata"] = md5crypt(recip, choice(saltmarsh) + choice(saltmarsh)) 


Other than that, it looks OK assuming there is an appropriate md5crypt
module in Mailman's path.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Jun 18 10:03:02 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 17:03:02 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > So what would be the implications of hacking an extra header into
 > outgoing posts on lists for which personalization is enabled, say
 > "X-Subdata", with said header containing a hash of the subscriber
 > address to which the post is directed?

I would use Resent-Message-ID, unless the content of posts is such
that you can get away with munging Message-ID itself.  That is a
standardized header that Mailman uses anyway.  I would also use a
reversible encryption rather than a hash.  (Not so much because it's
reversible, but rather because it's undetectable except insofar as
it's different from standard Mailman.)

 > This would, in theory, mostly satisfy AOL's privacy concern

I really don't think so.  It might satisfy *your* privacy concerns,
but their "privacy" concern is absolute.  (I doubt that their basic
motive is to protect their customers' privacy, especially given Brad's
statements, but I see no reason not to take them at their word that
*any* attempt to identify customers is a violation of their feedback
loop user agreement.)

That's not to say you shouldn't do it, but if they catch on, they'll
start redacting those headers, too, and quite possibly boot you from
their feedback loop.

As Brad points out, they simply don't care if their members get the
mail that they want.  Or at least, they don't care about that anywhere
near as much as they care that their members don't get mail that they
don't want!

 > Hacking the message ID out of mail logs to identify the subscriber seems
 > somewhat chancier and more difficult, since mail logs roll over and
 > eventually disappear from the system.

If you say so, but *that is under your control*.  I'd much rather make
the effort to make my logs dependable, than depend on any cooperation
from AOL.

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Jun 18 18:22:17 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:22:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 17:03 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Lindsay Haisley writes:
> 
>  > So what would be the implications of hacking an extra header into
>  > outgoing posts on lists for which personalization is enabled, say
>  > "X-Subdata", with said header containing a hash of the subscriber
>  > address to which the post is directed?
> 
> I would use Resent-Message-ID, unless the content of posts is such
> that you can get away with munging Message-ID itself.

Good suggestion.  I assume that Mailman never inserts
"Resent-Message-ID" into posts, is that correct?  I'd rather not mess
with "Message-ID" which provides a traceable path to the original
sender.

> I would also use a
> reversible encryption rather than a hash.  (Not so much because it's
> reversible, but rather because it's undetectable except insofar as
> it's different from standard Mailman.)

Suggestions, Stephen?  Why would, say, hashlib.md5(recip).hexdigest() be
any more or less detectable than a reversible encryption?

>  > This would, in theory, mostly satisfy AOL's privacy concern
> 
> I really don't think so.  It might satisfy *your* privacy concerns,
> but their "privacy" concern is absolute.

I don't give a rat's behinder about privacy on this issue, only that _I_
be able to identify the complaining recipient, based on having the
subscriber lists available, and that AOL and their minions _not_ be able
to do so.

> That's not to say you shouldn't do it, but if they catch on, they'll
> start redacting those headers, too, and quite possibly boot you from
> their feedback loop.

They've been letting VERPed subscriber addresses through their rather
scattershot redaction process for years.  I've been parsing them out of
the Sender header for about as long and automatically unsubscribing
these addresses from Mailman lists.  I could easily ignore them and stay
under AOL's radar, but I consider it a service to my customers to help
them keep their lists free of subscribers who don't want the traffic, no
matter how clueless they may be.

Doing this as a custom hack helps.  If this were implemented as a
Mailman standard option then word might indeed get back to them about
it.  Using Resent-Message-ID as a header name is a clever idea.

> As Brad points out, they simply don't care if their members get the
> mail that they want.  Or at least, they don't care about that anywhere
> near as much as they care that their members don't get mail that they
> don't want!

IMHO, AOL's days on this planet are numbered.  They'll go the way of
Compuserve :)

>  > Hacking the message ID out of mail logs to identify the subscriber seems
>  > somewhat chancier and more difficult, since mail logs roll over and
>  > eventually disappear from the system.
> 
> If you say so, but *that is under your control*.  I'd much rather make
> the effort to make my logs dependable, than depend on any cooperation
> from AOL.

I've seen Email Feedback Reports come in on posts that went out six
months prior.  Parsing Message IDs out of this many MBs of back mail
logs, most of them compressed, would be hugely expensive of processing
time.  I don't depend on cooperation from AOL, just stupidity, which
seems to be pretty dependable :)  On the other hand, the process of
dealing with these reports only happens a few times a month, at most.  

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Real programmers use butterflies"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |       - xkcd
http://www.fmp.com    |


From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Jun 18 19:01:02 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:01:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
	full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <37A0D864-07EF-44BC-B35F-091214D65740@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 18, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> IMHO, AOL's days on this planet are numbered.  They'll go the way of
> Compuserve :)

You mean that they'll get bought -- by AOL?  ;-)

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Mon Jun 18 19:04:04 2012
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:04:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>

On 2012-06-18 12:22 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com> wrote:
> Doing this as a custom hack helps.  If this were implemented as a
> Mailman standard option then word might indeed get back to them about
> it.  Using Resent-Message-ID as a header name is a clever idea.

I'd also argue that since this is not AOL specific but is a generic way 
for a mail system admin to control his own server, and AOL cannot 
dictate what you add to your own headers on your own messages, why not 
make it part of mailman official, with appropriate warnings about some 
brain-dead (probably unenforcable and possibly even illegal) limitations 
by certain clueless providers?

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Jun 18 19:07:27 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:07:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <37A0D864-07EF-44BC-B35F-091214D65740@shub-internet.org>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<37A0D864-07EF-44BC-B35F-091214D65740@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <1340039247.26588.99.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 10:01 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote:
> > IMHO, AOL's days on this planet are numbered.  They'll go the way of
> > Compuserve :)
> 
> You mean that they'll get bought -- by AOL?  ;-)
> 
The irony is not lost :)  The snake eats itself tail-first until it
disappears.

They'll probably get bought by Google!  Didn't TW dump them recently?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       |  "We are all broken toasters, but we still
FMP Computer Services |    manage to make toast"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    |        - Cheryl Dehut


From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Jun 18 19:11:17 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 02:11:17 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <877gv4bl56.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > Good suggestion.  I assume that Mailman never inserts
 > "Resent-Message-ID" into posts, is that correct?

Currently it doesn't, it seems, but there have been proposals to make
it do so (related to DKIM IIRC).  However, if and when it does, it
wouldn't hurt to add your obfuscated user id to it.

 > I'd rather not mess with "Message-ID" which provides a traceable
 > path to the original sender.

Right.  My comment about "content" was for the case where the list
owner is the only (or main) original sender.

 > Why would, say, hashlib.md5(recip).hexdigest() be any more or less
 > detectable than a reversible encryption?

Because once the idea becomes public, anybody can check the nonesense
strings in your headers to see if any of them hash to the user's id.
That's a lot more difficult if you use encryption based on a secret
key.

 > IMHO, AOL's days on this planet are numbered.  They'll go the way of
 > Compuserve :)

Yeah, I hope so.  Unfortunately, where I live, NiftyServe still exists
and its customers still put raw Shift JIS in their headers
occasionally.  I'm not going to bet on AOL's timely demise.

 > I've seen Email Feedback Reports come in on posts that went out six
 > months prior.  Parsing Message IDs out of this many MBs of back mail
 > logs, most of them compressed, would be hugely expensive of processing
 > time.

Seriously?  How many feedback reports do you get per second?  Yes, it
would be a little costly, but presumably they give something like a
date, you can narrow it down to a few MB I would guess.


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Jun 18 20:10:26 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:10:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <877gv4bl56.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<877gv4bl56.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1340043026.26588.112.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 02:11 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Lindsay Haisley writes:
>  > Why would, say, hashlib.md5(recip).hexdigest() be any more or less
>  > detectable than a reversible encryption?
> 
> Because once the idea becomes public, anybody can check the nonesense
> strings in your headers to see if any of them hash to the user's id.
> That's a lot more difficult if you use encryption based on a secret
> key.

Very true, and a good point.  A little research turned up
http://www.codekoala.com/blog/2009/aes-encryption-python-using-pycrypto/
which is a good discussion of using AES encryption in Python.  The
Crypto module seems to be standard issue with Python - no special
libraries required.

>  > IMHO, AOL's days on this planet are numbered.  They'll go the way of
>  > Compuserve :)
> 
> Yeah, I hope so.  Unfortunately, where I live, NiftyServe still exists
> and its customers still put raw Shift JIS in their headers
> occasionally.  I'm not going to bet on AOL's timely demise.

It took a major meteor hit to wipe out the dinosaurs!

>  > I've seen Email Feedback Reports come in on posts that went out six
>  > months prior.  Parsing Message IDs out of this many MBs of back mail
>  > logs, most of them compressed, would be hugely expensive of processing
>  > time.
> 
> Seriously?  How many feedback reports do you get per second?  Yes, it
> would be a little costly, but presumably they give something like a
> date, you can narrow it down to a few MB I would guess.

Weeeelll ...  The average number of feedback reports / second received
on my servers is pretty managable, actually ;)  I prefer the idea of
using Resent-Message-ID and and AES encryption on the recipient address
rather than mucking with log files.  It would be nice to put this into
the Mailman structure in such a way that I could retrieve, or access the
secret key, or at least perform encryption and decryption from a
withlist script.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The difference between a duck is because
FMP Computer Services |    one leg is both the same"
512-259-1190          |     - Anonymous
http://www.fmp.com    |


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Jun 18 20:44:35 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:44:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 13:04 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2012-06-18 12:22 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com> wrote:
> > Doing this as a custom hack helps.  If this were implemented as a
> > Mailman standard option then word might indeed get back to them about
> > it.  Using Resent-Message-ID as a header name is a clever idea.
> 
> I'd also argue that since this is not AOL specific but is a generic way 
> for a mail system admin to control his own server, and AOL cannot 
> dictate what you add to your own headers on your own messages, why not 
> make it part of mailman official, with appropriate warnings about some 
> brain-dead (probably unenforcable and possibly even illegal) limitations 
> by certain clueless providers?

I agree.  Stephen Turnbull points out that using reversible encryption
with a secret key would be more secure from the point of view of
restricting 3rd party knowledge of the unencrypted/unhashed data.  A
secret key could be kept per-list or per-site.  The ability to securely
track recipient information (or any information) across a list
distribution, or across a non-delivery bounce might be very useful.

It might be very convenient to have what one might call EVERP, where the
recipient address is encrypted into the envelope sender address, as an
alternative choice to Mailman's VERP implementation.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       |  "Humor will get you through times of no humor
FMP Computer Services |      better than no humor will get you through
512-259-1190          |         times of humor."
http://www.fmp.com    |            - Butch Hancock


From dave at fiteyes.com  Mon Jun 18 20:59:03 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:59:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com>wrote:

> On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 13:04 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > On 2012-06-18 12:22 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com> wrote:
> > > Doing this as a custom hack helps.  If this were implemented as a
> > > Mailman standard option then word might indeed get back to them about
> > > it.  Using Resent-Message-ID as a header name is a clever idea.
> >
> > I'd also argue that since this is not AOL specific but is a generic way
> > for a mail system admin to control his own server, and AOL cannot
> > dictate what you add to your own headers on your own messages, why not
> > make it part of mailman official, with appropriate warnings about some
> > brain-dead (probably unenforcable and possibly even illegal) limitations
> > by certain clueless providers?
>
> I agree.  Stephen Turnbull points out that using reversible encryption
> with a secret key would be more secure from the point of view of
> restricting 3rd party knowledge of the unencrypted/unhashed data.  A
> secret key could be kept per-list or per-site.  The ability to securely
> track recipient information (or any information) across a list
> distribution, or across a non-delivery bounce might be very useful.
>
> It might be very convenient to have what one might call EVERP, where the
> recipient address is encrypted into the envelope sender address, as an
> alternative choice to Mailman's VERP implementation.
>

This whole thread is a good and interesting discussion. Anything along
these lines sounds like a great suggestion  to me.

In terms of privacy, as list admins we already have the member's
information. All we are doing in this case is helping that member stop
receiving messages they obviously no longer wish to receive. This is
clearly not an invasion of privacy (especially with a properly encrypted
implementation). It is a service to the individual (and to the entire list
membership and even the Internet as a whole, I think).

Originally, this seemed appropriate as a personal project. But the more I
think about this, the more clear it seems that a feature that allows a list
admin to stop sending emails to members who no longer want that email is a
very good feature to include in Mailman. It can help ensure that Mailman is
used in a way that causes the least amount of grief for everyone across the
Internet, right?

From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Jun 18 21:05:10 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:05:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
	full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> It might be very convenient to have what one might call EVERP, where the
> recipient address is encrypted into the envelope sender address, as an
> alternative choice to Mailman's VERP implementation.

Uh, trust me -- you really don't want to get into the discussion of creating new SMTP protocol enhancements.  I was on the DRUMS WG.  You really, really don't want to go there.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Mon Jun 18 21:06:28 2012
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:06:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1206181357060.82727@albion.stonejongleux.com>

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012, Brad Knowles wrote:

> In fact, when you sign up for the AOL Feedback Loop (as I did years ago 
> for the lists hosted at python.org), the instructions explicitly state 
> that you may not use any information they give you to determine who the 
> affected user is -- they're simply telling you that you have a problem 
> that you need to fix on your end to keep spam from being generated in 
> the first place, and it is not relevant which AOL user is complaining.

And the problem that I'm trying to fix is that their user has violated MY 
TOS regarding reporting list mail (that they subscribed to) as spam. That 
AOL sent their Feedback Loop message to me is therefore part of the 
violation of my terms. So whose terms ends up governing when they're in 
conflict?

Personally, I'm not going to worry about it. I'll use them as best I can 
to unsubscribe and server ban the offending subscriber. As I said, that 
AOL user has violated my terms and I am entitled to deal with that 
violation. If AOL were to ever call me on it, I'll worry about that then.

-- Larry Stone
    lstone19 at stonejongleux.com

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Jun 18 21:32:14 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:32:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <1340047934.26588.128.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 12:05 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote:
> Uh, trust me -- you really don't want to get into the discussion of
> creating new SMTP protocol enhancements.  I was on the DRUMS WG.  You
> really, really don't want to go there.
> 
VERP is not an SMTP protocol, but a MTA property supported by many
modern MTAs such as Courier.  It relies on the fact that MTAs which
support it treat user-somedata at example.com as an email address extension
of user at example.com.

Pardon me if I'm missing something here.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Never expect the people who caused a problem
FMP Computer Services |  to solve it." - Albert Einstein
512-259-1190          |        
http://www.fmp.com    |


From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Mon Jun 18 21:32:38 2012
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:32:38 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalisation: how long does it take?
Message-ID: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93C94@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>

Hi,

Just wondering how long in the real world it takes to get all messages from a personalised list sent out and processed by the MTA on the same machine as Mailman?  List is around 750 members.  I did run this once and it took over 10 minutes to get all the messages delivered through the MTA, I am partially wondering whether that is because I am DKIM signing each message?  If I use standard delivery the processing time is a lot shorter (around a minute).

Just wondering,
Andrew.

From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Jun 18 22:23:45 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:23:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
	full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1206181357060.82727@albion.stonejongleux.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1206181357060.82727@albion.stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <9C05C55A-CD50-4B1A-8B81-551441694CF6@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 18, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Larry Stone wrote:

> And the problem that I'm trying to fix is that their user has violated MY TOS regarding reporting list mail (that they subscribed to) as spam. That AOL sent their Feedback Loop message to me is therefore part of the violation of my terms. So whose terms ends up governing when they're in conflict?

When you sign up for the feedback loop, you do so under the TOS of the feedback loop.  If their user violates your TOS by reporting your list traffic as spam, that doesn't change the TOS of the feedback loop that you signed up for.

Two lefts make a U-turn, not a right.  ;-)

> Personally, I'm not going to worry about it. I'll use them as best I can to unsubscribe and server ban the offending subscriber. As I said, that AOL user has violated my terms and I am entitled to deal with that violation. If AOL were to ever call me on it, I'll worry about that then.

On that subject, I agree with you.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From terry at fiteyes.com  Mon Jun 18 22:24:09 2012
From: terry at fiteyes.com (Terry Earley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:24:09 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalisation: how long does it take?
In-Reply-To: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93C94@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
References: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93C94@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
Message-ID: <CAL3ZyvAv70O2=M5DxvkFMHbZ1gakU1FPrnxGxpdK=MUgLFV21g@mail.gmail.com>

Our own experience sending to 2100 users is that without personalization a
message went out in 2 seconds. When we applied personalization and VERP,
that test message went out in 120 seconds, which was acceptable to us.

Obviously, there are many factors affecting speed of delivery.
Personalization is just one. What you did was best. that is to test with
your own environment.

Terry Earley

FitEyes


On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Andrew Hodgson <andrew at hodgsonfamily.org>wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Just wondering how long in the real world it takes to get all messages
> from a personalised list sent out and processed by the MTA on the same
> machine as Mailman?  List is around 750 members.  I did run this once and
> it took over 10 minutes to get all the messages delivered through the MTA,
> I am partially wondering whether that is because I am DKIM signing each
> message?  If I use standard delivery the processing time is a lot shorter
> (around a minute).
>
> Just wondering,
> Andrew.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/terry%40fiteyes.com
>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Jun 18 22:29:07 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:29:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
	full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340047934.26588.128.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
	<1340047934.26588.128.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <D6B3B819-0FA9-4E63-8A95-30F6A5C61A0F@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 18, 2012, at 12:32 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> VERP is not an SMTP protocol, but a MTA property supported by many
> modern MTAs such as Courier.  It relies on the fact that MTAs which
> support it treat user-somedata at example.com as an email address extension
> of user at example.com.

Okay, not technically a part of the SMTP protocol, that much I grant.

But there is already enough complexity in getting people to support just plain basic VERP.  We don't need to go making the situation more complex than it already is, at least not as it applies to any "standard" implementation.

At least, not yet.  Gimme a working implementation that has been demonstrated to avoid tripping all sorts of alarms and falling foul of other standard techniques (e.g., greylisting), and then maybe we can revisit the concept of actually recommending a functional change based on our real-world experience.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From terry at fiteyes.com  Mon Jun 18 23:00:49 2012
From: terry at fiteyes.com (Terry Earley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 15:00:49 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalisation: how long does it take?
In-Reply-To: <CAL3ZyvAv70O2=M5DxvkFMHbZ1gakU1FPrnxGxpdK=MUgLFV21g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93C94@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
	<CAL3ZyvAv70O2=M5DxvkFMHbZ1gakU1FPrnxGxpdK=MUgLFV21g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL3ZyvBTr44nWSbDvLEe8H_19eNN4Qt1fivWsuwZgoPbeHNVaQ@mail.gmail.com>

I should also mention that this test was with DKIM signing and the number
of members was between 2100 and 2200.

Terry

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Terry Earley <terry at fiteyes.com> wrote:

> Our own experience sending to 2100 users is that without personalization a
> message went out in 2 seconds. When we applied personalization and VERP,
> that test message went out in 120 seconds, which was acceptable to us.
>
> Obviously, there are many factors affecting speed of delivery.
> Personalization is just one. What you did was best. that is to test with
> your own environment.
>
> Terry Earley
>
> FitEyes
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Andrew Hodgson <andrew at hodgsonfamily.org>wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Just wondering how long in the real world it takes to get all messages
>> from a personalised list sent out and processed by the MTA on the same
>> machine as Mailman?  List is around 750 members.  I did run this once and
>> it took over 10 minutes to get all the messages delivered through the MTA,
>> I am partially wondering whether that is because I am DKIM signing each
>> message?  If I use standard delivery the processing time is a lot shorter
>> (around a minute).
>>
>> Just wondering,
>> Andrew.
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>> Searchable Archives:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/terry%40fiteyes.com
>>
>
>

From mailman-users at ml.th-h.de  Sun Jun 17 22:19:44 2012
From: mailman-users at ml.th-h.de (Thomas Hochstein)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 22:19:44 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
	full personalization enabled
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <alm.1206172219.871@landroval.ancalagon.de>

Lindsay Haisley schrieb:

> So what would be the implications of hacking an extra header into
> outgoing posts on lists for which personalization is enabled, say
> "X-Subdata", with said header containing a hash of the subscriber
> address to which the post is directed?

AOL ist actually recommending something like that (or adding the user
name somewhere in a way not looking like a mail addeess) - which makes
the whole thing even more absurd.

-thh

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Tue Jun 19 00:32:44 2012
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:32:44 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalisation: how long does it take?
In-Reply-To: <CAL3ZyvBTr44nWSbDvLEe8H_19eNN4Qt1fivWsuwZgoPbeHNVaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93C94@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
	<CAL3ZyvAv70O2=M5DxvkFMHbZ1gakU1FPrnxGxpdK=MUgLFV21g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL3ZyvBTr44nWSbDvLEe8H_19eNN4Qt1fivWsuwZgoPbeHNVaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93D5A@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>

Terry Earley wrote:

>I should also mention that this test was with DKIM signing and the number of members was between 2100 and 2200.

Thanks, something is wrong with the setup or the VPS I use is not running efficiently.  What MTA are you using? I am on Exim4.

Andrew. 

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Jun 19 00:43:18 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 15:43:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalisation: how long does it take?
In-Reply-To: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93D5A@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
References: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93C94@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
	<CAL3ZyvAv70O2=M5DxvkFMHbZ1gakU1FPrnxGxpdK=MUgLFV21g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL3ZyvBTr44nWSbDvLEe8H_19eNN4Qt1fivWsuwZgoPbeHNVaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93D5A@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
Message-ID: <E261ECB7-8298-43FD-9566-5E605B86C7F1@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 18, 2012, at 3:32 PM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

> Thanks, something is wrong with the setup or the VPS I use is not running efficiently.  What MTA are you using? I am on Exim4.

Postfix has some out-of-the-box settings that make it particularly well suited for the role of being an MTA for a mailing list manager like Mailman.  With work, you can probably get a configuration for Exim that will perform nearly as fast for the same size of list, but Exim is designed primarily for other purposes than maximum performance.  As the list grows larger, the performance gap between a well-tuned postfix configuration and a well-tuned Exim configuration is likely to grow.

On the other hand, some people will find it easier to administer the Exim configuration than they would postfix.


If ten minutes to send out your list is actually acceptable for you, then don't worry that someone else can get their entire list sent out in 120 seconds, even if they're the same size and they're doing all the same crypto operations.  You need what is good enough for you, and you don't need to be comparing yourself to someone else.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From terry at fiteyes.com  Tue Jun 19 00:56:02 2012
From: terry at fiteyes.com (Terry Earley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:56:02 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalisation: how long does it take?
In-Reply-To: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93D5A@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
References: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93C94@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
	<CAL3ZyvAv70O2=M5DxvkFMHbZ1gakU1FPrnxGxpdK=MUgLFV21g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL3ZyvBTr44nWSbDvLEe8H_19eNN4Qt1fivWsuwZgoPbeHNVaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E93D5A@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
Message-ID: <CAL3ZyvD5PQCJpBg9ns2eexwTpdSi7YCx5eLntM1WggzBMeFizw@mail.gmail.com>

We are using postfix on the same server as our MTA.

Terry

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Andrew Hodgson <andrew at hodgsonfamily.org>wrote:

> Terry Earley wrote:
>
> >I should also mention that this test was with DKIM signing and the number
> of members was between 2100 and 2200.
>
> Thanks, something is wrong with the setup or the VPS I use is not running
> efficiently.  What MTA are you using? I am on Exim4.
>
> Andrew.
>

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Tue Jun 19 00:58:37 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 17:58:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340060317.26588.156.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 14:59 -0400, David wrote:
> In terms of privacy, as list admins we already have the member's
> information. All we are doing in this case is helping that member stop
> receiving messages they obviously no longer wish to receive. This is
> clearly not an invasion of privacy (especially with a properly
> encrypted implementation). It is a service to the individual (and to
> the entire list membership and even the Internet as a whole, I think).

Dave, you're spot-on in this assessment, and this is the way I run my
business.  Unfortunately, the Internet is no longer the kinder, gentler
network it was 15, or even 10 years ago.  In terms of an effective and
progressive attitude toward customer service and satisfaction, AOL's
position is 180 degrees counterintuitive and makes NO sense whatsoever.
It only makes sense in terms of butt-covering!  In that context, it's
totally logical.  AOL has for years, perhaps always, been infamous for
the lousy quality of their email service.

FWIW, pursuant to Stephen's comments re. using encryption rather than
hashing for passing recipient addresses in headers, I've attached a
short Python script which puts short strings of data, such as an email
address, into an AES cipher.  This could be folded into the Mailman
handlers and AES_SECRET_KEY could be put into mm_cfg.py.  Hacks to
SMTPDirect.py to incorporate an encrypted cipher of the recipient
address could make use if it.  I believe all the Python modules it uses
are standard issue with the distribution.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | SUPPORT NETWORK NEUTRALITY
FMP Computer Services | --------------------------
512-259-1190          | Boycott Yahoo, RoadRunner, AOL
http://www.fmp.com    | and Verison

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Tue Jun 19 01:20:32 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:20:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340060317.26588.156.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340060317.26588.156.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <1340061632.26588.159.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 17:58 -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> FWIW, pursuant to Stephen's comments re. using encryption rather than
> hashing for passing recipient addresses in headers, I've attached a
> short Python script which puts short strings of data, such as an email
> address, into an AES cipher.

It looks as if the attachment got stripped.  Here's the script, based on
information at
http://www.codekoala.com/blog/2009/aes-encryption-python-using-pycrypto/


class AEScrypt:
	from Crypto.Cipher import AES
	from Crypto.Util import randpool
	import base64

	block_size = 16
	key_size = 32
	mode = AES.MODE_CBC
	
	def genkey(self):
		key_bytes = self.randpool.RandomPool(512).get_bytes(self.key_size)
		key_string = self.base64.urlsafe_b64encode(str(key_bytes))
		return key_string		

	def encrypt(self, plain_text, key_string):
		pad = self.block_size - len(plain_text) % self.block_size
		data = plain_text + pad * chr(pad)
		iv_bytes = self.randpool.RandomPool(512).get_bytes(self.block_size)
		encrypted_bytes = iv_bytes + self.AES.new(self.base64.urlsafe_b64decode(key_string), 
				self.mode, iv_bytes).encrypt(data)
		return self.base64.urlsafe_b64encode(str(encrypted_bytes))

	def decrypt(self, cypher_text, key_string):
		key_bytes = self.base64.urlsafe_b64decode(key_string)
		encrypted_bytes = self.base64.urlsafe_b64decode(cypher_text)
		iv_bytes = encrypted_bytes[:self.block_size]
		encrypted_bytes = encrypted_bytes[self.block_size:]
		plain_text = self.AES.new(key_bytes, self.mode, iv_bytes).decrypt(encrypted_bytes)
		pad = ord(plain_text[-1])
		return plain_text[:-pad]

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "In an open world, who needs  
FMP Computer Services |    Windows or Gates"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    |


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Tue Jun 19 07:38:04 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:38:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AES encryption and Resent-Message-ID
Message-ID: <1340084284.28364.41.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

Here are a few tidbits pursuant to putting an encrypted copy of a list
post recipient in a "Resent-Message-ID" header, as Stephen Turnbull
suggested.  There are four parts:

1.  A patch to SMTPDirect.py

2.  A secret key entry in mm_cfg.py

3.  A utility, ~mailman/bin/aes_genkey, to manage key generation

4.  A handler module to do encryption, decryption and key generation -
AEScrypt.py

Here's the patch to SMTPDirect.py (mm 2.1.15):

--- SMTPDirect.py.orig	2012-06-17 17:16:25.000000000 -0500
+++ SMTPDirect.py	2012-06-18 23:29:58.000000000 -0500
@@ -43,6 +43,7 @@
 from email.Utils import formataddr
 from email.Header import Header
 from email.Charset import Charset
+import AEScrypt
 
 DOT = '.'
 
@@ -307,6 +308,11 @@
                  'host'   : DOT.join(rdomain),
                  }
             envsender = '%s@%s' % ((mm_cfg.VERP_FORMAT % d), DOT.join(bdomain))
+            try:
+                skey = AEScrypt.encrypt(recip)
+                msgcopy["Resent-Message-ID"] = skey + "@" + DOT.join(bdomain)
+            except:
+                pass
         if mlist.personalize == 2:
             # When fully personalizing, we want the To address to point to the
             # recipient, not to the mailing list


mm_cfg.py requires an AES key in AES_SECRET_KEY.  Without this, the
Resent-Message-ID header isn't inserted in outgoing posts and everything
works as it does without this stuff.

The AES key can be generated with aes_genkey which lives in ~mailman/bin
and works like other scripts in this directory.  Running it with -a
appends AES_SECRET_KEY to mm_cfg.py with an appropriate comment.

~mailman/bin/aes_genkey
-----------------------
#! /usr/bin/python
"""Generate an AES secret key on stdout for inclusion in mm_cfg.py as
AES_SECRET_KEY.

Usage: %(PROGRAM)s [options]

Where:
    -a append AES secret key to mm_cfg.py

    -h / --help
        Print help and exit.
"""

import sys
import getopt
import os
import paths
from Mailman import mm_cfg
from Mailman.Handlers import AEScrypt
from Mailman.i18n import _

def usage(code, msg=''):
    if code:
        fd = sys.stderr
    else:
        fd = sys.stdout
    print >> fd, _(__doc__)
    if msg:
        print >> fd, msg
    sys.exit(code)

def main():
    try:
        opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], 'ha', ['help'])
    except getopt.error, msg:
        usage(1, msg)

    for opt, arg in opts:
        if opt in ('-h', '--help'):
            usage(0)
        if opt in ('-a',):
            try:
                f = mm_cfg.AES_SECRET_KEY
                print "AES secret key already in mm_cfg.py"
                return(0)
            except:
                mm = open(os.getenv("HOME") + "/Mailman/mm_cfg.py", "a")
                ktxt = """
# Experimental address encryption key.  To renew this key,
# delete AES_SECRET_KEY and run 'aes_keygen -a' and restart
# Mailman.
AES_SECRET_KEY = '%s'
""" % (AEScrypt.genkey(),)
                mm.write(ktxt)
                mm.close()
                print "AES secret key added to mm_cfg.py"
                return(0)

    print AEScrypt.genkey()

if __name__ == '__main__':
    sys.exit(main())


The final part is the encryption/decryption module, AEScrypt.py  For
this to work the python-crypto ("Crypto") package must be installed.

~mailman/Mailman/Handlers/AEScrypt.py
-------------------------------------
from Crypto.Cipher import AES
from Crypto.Util import randpool
from Mailman import mm_cfg
import base64

block_size = 16
key_size = 32
mode = AES.MODE_CBC
try:
	key_string = mm_cfg.AES_SECRET_KEY	
except:
	pass

def genkey():
	key_bytes = randpool.RandomPool(512).get_bytes(key_size)
	key_string = base64.urlsafe_b64encode(str(key_bytes))
	return key_string		

def encrypt(plain_text):
	pad = block_size - len(plain_text) % block_size
	data = plain_text + pad * chr(pad)
	iv_bytes = randpool.RandomPool(512).get_bytes(block_size)
	encrypted_bytes = iv_bytes + AES.new(base64.urlsafe_b64decode(key_string), mode, iv_bytes).encrypt(data)
	return base64.urlsafe_b64encode(str(encrypted_bytes))

def decrypt(cypher_text):
	key_bytes = base64.urlsafe_b64decode(key_string)
	encrypted_bytes = base64.urlsafe_b64decode(cypher_text)
	iv_bytes = encrypted_bytes[:block_size]
	encrypted_bytes = encrypted_bytes[block_size:]
	plain_text = AES.new(key_bytes, mode, iv_bytes).decrypt(encrypted_bytes)
	pad = ord(plain_text[-1])
	return plain_text[:-pad]


The Resent-Message-ID header has the domain name of the server host
appended to it and this will need to be stripped before decrypting the
address string.  Something like 'crypt, dn = full_header.split("@")'
will pull the encrypted address from the header.  A withlist script can
easily extract the plain text content of the encrypted string.

I hope this helps someone.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Real programmers use butterflies"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |       - xkcd
http://www.fmp.com    |


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun 19 10:17:24 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:17:24 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

David writes:

 > In terms of privacy, as list admins we already have the member's
 > information. All we are doing in this case is helping that member stop
 > receiving messages they obviously no longer wish to receive. This is
 > clearly not an invasion of privacy (especially with a properly encrypted
 > implementation).

Nice try, but we still can't define AOL's policy for them.  AOL's
claim is that we need to fix our spam problem, not unsubscribe the
member, so trying to identify the member *is* an invasion of privacy.
Nor should we judge what the member "obviously wants," especially
given the draconian "solution."  Unsubscribing the member is a
forceful act that they may not want (you in particular should not
forget that, Dave!)

Note, I do *not* have a better solution.[1]

The point is that there are several points of view from which what we
are proposing here is "not nice".  I think we should do it anyway; the
argument that it's for the greatest good of the greatest number is
irrefutable.  But let's remember that the Internet is a big place, and
we don't make the rules, except on our own servers.  On AOL's, the
rules are made by AOL.  If you have a lot of AOL subscribers, you
probably don't want AOL upset at you, even if their policy is bogus.


Footnotes: 
[1]  My policy is that I don't care if my list ever successfully
delivers a message to AOL; my subscribers -- including some who
happen to be stuck on AOL for some reason -- think that's perfectly
fine.  So far we haven't been banned by AOL AFAIK :-).  But that won't
work for most of you!


From turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp  Tue Jun 19 10:25:31 2012
From: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:25:31 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP
	and	full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <871ulbbtdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:
 > On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
 > 
 > > It might be very convenient to have what one might call EVERP, where the
 > > recipient address is encrypted into the envelope sender address, as an
 > > alternative choice to Mailman's VERP implementation.

It's just VERP, please.  It doesn't require any difference in MTA
behavior at all.

 > Uh, trust me -- you really don't want to get into the discussion of
 > creating new SMTP protocol enhancements.  I was on the DRUMS WG.
 > You really, really don't want to go there.

I don't understand the technical issue here.  VERP simply requires the
(reasonably standard) existing feature that the final MTA ignore
random goop in the mailbox spec if properly marked (usually with '+',
sometimes with a '-').  As far as I know, no MTA ever checks that the
random goop is well-formed random goop -- that's an oxymoron, isn't
it?  If this proposal won't fly, normal VERP shouldn't, either.

And even if one does, the ones we recommend don't, right?  So somebody
who wants to use Lindsay's proposal just needs to change MTAs.  (I
know that's not zero-cost, but machines are cheap these days; you can
dedicate a (virtual) machine to Mailman at very low cost.  I'll bet
Brian would do it for zero extra dollars per month over his standard
Mailman service! :-)

From kjohnson at pcc.edu  Tue Jun 19 16:11:09 2012
From: kjohnson at pcc.edu (Kirke Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 07:11:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340039247.26588.99.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<37A0D864-07EF-44BC-B35F-091214D65740@shub-internet.org>
	<1340039247.26588.99.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <CACWHpAxxDW63UTwWkXeTpbbvg19RoSnQ5-d6w0bw36c-VqXs7g@mail.gmail.com>

I love a recursive solution.....  ;-}

Kirke Johnson                               Internet: kjohnson at pcc.edu
Email Administrator, TSS , Sylvania Campus
Portland Community College, Portland, OR, USA     (971) 722-4368


On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com>wrote:

> The irony is not lost :)  The snake eats itself tail-first until it
> disappears.
>

From mm at brightstar.bomgardner.net  Mon Jun 18 15:18:37 2012
From: mm at brightstar.bomgardner.net (gene)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 08:18:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] cgi/create and local use - trouble...
Message-ID: <20120618125551.M91463@brightstar.bomgardner.net>

Hi All:
I have a lan with several machines on it. I've installed MM 2.1.14 on the 
unix host 'genesis' which also runs my apache server. In order to browse to 
genesis' web server from within the lan, I have to use something like:
 "http://genesis/mailman/listinfo"
Using the fqdn (genesis.domain.net or domain.net) just times out.

So when I tried to use cgi/create (web) to create a list, I got:
"Unknown virtual domain: genesis"

So in mm_cfg.py I put the following:

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'genesis.domain.net'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'genesis.domain.net'

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
add_virtualhost('genesis.domain.net')
add_virtualhost('genesis')

That solved the virtual host problem, but now, when using cgi/create to 
create the list "test" I get:

'Illegal list name: test@'       < note no domain name

So I tried creating test with the fqdn and was told that the '@' was not 
allowed in the list name (makes sense). I was able to create the list using 
bin/newlist, bur it seems the newlist creates lists as private, not public, 
lists.

So...  does anyone know how this script can be used locally as well as from 
outside the lan?

Thanks,
Gene


--
Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org)


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Tue Jun 19 16:59:26 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 09:59:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <871ulbbtdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
	<871ulbbtdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1340117966.28364.95.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 17:25 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Brad Knowles writes:
>  > On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
>  > 
>  > > It might be very convenient to have what one might call EVERP, where the
>  > > recipient address is encrypted into the envelope sender address, as an
>  > > alternative choice to Mailman's VERP implementation.
> 
> It's just VERP, please.  It doesn't require any difference in MTA
> behavior at all.

EVERP = Encrypted VERP

>  > Uh, trust me -- you really don't want to get into the discussion of
>  > creating new SMTP protocol enhancements.  I was on the DRUMS WG.
>  > You really, really don't want to go there.
> 
> I don't understand the technical issue here.  VERP simply requires the
> (reasonably standard) existing feature that the final MTA ignore
> random goop in the mailbox spec if properly marked (usually with '+',
> sometimes with a '-').  As far as I know, no MTA ever checks that the
> random goop is well-formed random goop -- that's an oxymoron, isn't
> it?  If this proposal won't fly, normal VERP shouldn't, either.

Exactly.  Strictly speaking, this is a MDA issue, although the MTA must
accept mail to user-<random-goop>@example.com based on the existence of
an mail account for "user".  If "user" is a Mailman list, then what's
done with <random-goop> is Mailman's concern alone.

> And even if one does, the ones we recommend don't, right?  So somebody
> who wants to use Lindsay's proposal just needs to change MTAs.

Not really, because if the MTA and MDA will deal properly with mail
addressed to list-bounce+user=example.com at foo.com, a standard VERP
address, it will handle list-bounces+AESEncryptedAddress at foo.com.  Only
Mailman needs to extend the way it handles the VERPed address.

>From a practical point of view my EVERP proposal may not be a good
scheme for dealing with AOL's redaction policy in Email Feedback
Reports.  Although it would obviously fool the existing automated
redaction process, a radical change to the contents of the VERP address
in the envelope sender would probably attract the notice of a real
person, no matter how clueless.  Better to go with a "stealth"
Resent-Message-ID header.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       |"Friends are like potatoes.
FMP Computer Services |    If you eat them, they die"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    |              - Aaron Edmund


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Tue Jun 19 19:52:32 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:52:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <9C05C55A-CD50-4B1A-8B81-551441694CF6@shub-internet.org>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1206181357060.82727@albion.stonejongleux.com>
	<9C05C55A-CD50-4B1A-8B81-551441694CF6@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <1340128352.9415.27.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 13:23 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote:
> On Jun 18, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Larry Stone wrote:
> 
> > And the problem that I'm trying to fix is that their user has
> >violated MY TOS regarding reporting list mail (that they subscribed
> >to) as spam. That AOL sent their Feedback Loop message to me is
> >therefore part of the violation of my terms. So whose terms ends up
> >governing when they're in conflict?
> 
> When you sign up for the feedback loop, you do so under the TOS of the
> feedback loop.  If their user violates your TOS by reporting your list
> traffic as spam, that doesn't change the TOS of the feedback loop that
> you signed up for.

Which brings up an interesting point, albeit it's mostly academic.  It's
been years since I read the TOS for AOL's Feedback Loop email.  Does the
TOS disallow trying to determine the address of the recipient, or just
acting on this knowledge.  The former is unenforceable, as are
prohibitions on reverse-engineering proprietary software in my
possession.  Acting on this knowledge is another matter.  I'm free to
put whatever information I choose in an email I send to an AOL user,
including a header with an encrypted recipient address.  If AOL accepts
it and sends it back to me in a spam report, and has not redacted
information I put into it (and they are free to redact whatever they
choose), then I must be able to learn what I can from the offending
message, including from the headers.

If indeed the TOS prohibits determining the address of the AOL recipient
from the email, then it's only enforceable if I take action based on
this knowledge, since this hardly rises to the level of industrial
espionage.  All kinds of things get put into TOS documents that are
ridiculous and unenforceable on the face of it.  Yes, AOL is under no
obligation to send me Email Feedback Reports, and can stop doing so at
any time for any reason.  They can even cut off access to their user
base from my servers.  They don't have enough clout on the Internet
anymore so that this would really hurt anyone but themselves.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       |  "Humor will get you through times of no humor
FMP Computer Services |      better than no humor will get you through
512-259-1190          |         times of humor."
http://www.fmp.com    |            - Butch Hancock


From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Jun 19 20:13:18 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:13:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
	full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340128352.9415.27.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1206181357060.82727@albion.stonejongleux.com>
	<9C05C55A-CD50-4B1A-8B81-551441694CF6@shub-internet.org>
	<1340128352.9415.27.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <090E26C5-104F-4709-8B49-001C6824E200@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 19, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> Which brings up an interesting point, albeit it's mostly academic.  It's
> been years since I read the TOS for AOL's Feedback Loop email.  Does the
> TOS disallow trying to determine the address of the recipient, or just
> acting on this knowledge.

Yes.  ;-)

Seriously, I think the TOS specifically prohibits you from taking any action based on the address of the recipient who filed the complaint.  Which matters to the point that you care about abiding by their TOS and what they can do to you if they discover that you have violated their TOS.

To their credit, AOL has always had plenty of money for good lawyers, and they've certainly gone through plenty of contracts, etc... over the years.  So, it makes sense that they would actually be aware of such distinctions and word their TOS appropriately.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun 19 20:30:22 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 03:30:22 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340117966.28364.95.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
	<871ulbbtdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340117966.28364.95.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87wr339mtd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > EVERP = Encrypted VERP

Ever heard of "Occam's Razor"?  Most folks who run Mailman lists can't
expand "VERP", and wouldn't understand the expansion when told.  It's
not obvious to me that practioners would get it right, either.  Let's
not proliferate unnecessary acronyms.

N.B. That expansion doesn't say what kind of values the "variable"
takes, although the usual implementation assumes a friendly Internet
and uses addressee mailboxes.  Wikipedia says, "However, some VERP
implementations use message number or random key as part of VERP",
which is close enough to "encrypted VERP" for me, YMMV.  It's just an
implementation detail that really only concerns implementers....

I'm not sure of this, but it seems to me that encrypted VERP should
work fine with greylisted recipients (if you can ever call the results
of greylisting "fine" :-P) as long as you don't change the encryption
key very often.

In Mailman 3, I would suppose it won't be hard to store the encrypted
form along with the rest of the user's profile.

 > >From a practical point of view my EVERP proposal may not be a good
 > scheme for dealing with AOL's redaction policy in Email Feedback
 > Reports.  Although it would obviously fool the existing automated
 > redaction process, a radical change to the contents of the VERP address
 > in the envelope sender would probably attract the notice of a real
 > person, no matter how clueless.

Ah, but we can just say "this allows us to VERP without exposing
addresses on anybody's disk; this helps protect your users' privacy."


From geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Tue Jun 19 20:34:47 2012
From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:34:47 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <87wr339mtd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
	<871ulbbtdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340117966.28364.95.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87wr339mtd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206192133570.2144@data.home>

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> > >From a practical point of view my EVERP proposal may not be a good
> > scheme for dealing with AOL's redaction policy in Email Feedback
> > Reports.  Although it would obviously fool the existing automated
> > redaction process, a radical change to the contents of the VERP address
> > in the envelope sender would probably attract the notice of a real
> > person, no matter how clueless.
>
> Ah, but we can just say "this allows us to VERP without exposing
> addresses on anybody's disk; this helps protect your users' privacy."

Oh the irony.

Geoff.


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Tue Jun 19 20:40:19 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:40:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1340131219.32711.21.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 17:17 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Nice try, but we still can't define AOL's policy for them.  AOL's
> claim is that we need to fix our spam problem, not unsubscribe the
> member,

Isn't that the same thing?  The object is to prevent the complaining
recipient from receiving offensive emails, whatever one calls them.  The
complaint is, in AOL's collective mind, evidence of a "spam problem"
which needs to be fixed.  It's a far stretch of their assumed authority
to presume that the "spam problem" is the list itself.  What action,
other than severing the link between the sender (the list) and the
recipient (the AOL subscriber) would AOL expect, or consider a justified
use of an Email Feedback Report?

>  so trying to identify the member *is* an invasion of privacy.

Mailman identifies recipients all the time in the process of doing
bounce processing.  The only difference here is that the bounce is
explicitly initiated by the recipient by pressing the "Report spam"
button, rather than implicitly by, say, changing email addresses without
updating associated list subscriptions.

> Nor should we judge what the member "obviously wants," especially
> given the draconian "solution."

Unsubscribing a list subscriber is hardly draconian.  Perhaps banning
the user from resubscribing might be considered so, but I don't think
that automatic unsubscription of an address rises anywhere near this
level.  The system I've built here to parse AOL's Feedback Reports uses
a withlist script to identify the list administrator and provides
him/her with a detailed explanation of the automated action and what the
admin's options are, which include counseling the unsubscribed user and
re-subscribing him/her.

> Unsubscribing the member is a
> forceful act that they may not want (you in particular should not
> forget that, Dave!)
> 
I would use "intentional" rather than "forceful", and in many cases,
perhaps most, hitting the "Report Spam" button is probably seen as a way
to to get AOL to help them stop receiving emails that they may have long
ago subscribed to, and they don't have the patience or knowledge to jump
through the hoops required to explicitly unsubscribe from the list.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "It is better to bite a single
FMP Computer Services |    cannibal than to curse the doggies"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    |        -- John Day


From dave at fiteyes.com  Tue Jun 19 21:05:48 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:05:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU76P_f_3au0fbHTZ75wAPUD45XVUFDgtebLMuYs22ziXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 4:17 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>wrote:

> David writes:
>
>  > In terms of privacy, as list admins we already have the member's
>  > information. All we are doing in this case is helping that member stop
>  > receiving messages they obviously no longer wish to receive. This is
>  > clearly not an invasion of privacy (especially with a properly encrypted
>  > implementation).
>
> Nice try, but we still can't define AOL's policy for them.  AOL's
> claim is that we need to fix our spam problem, not unsubscribe the
> member,


Yes, I know that is their perspective. And I know you are playing devil's
advocate, Stephen, which I appreciate. It is worthwhile to make sure we all
understand their perspective, and I don't disagree with anything you wrote.

In fact this is the natural way I think too, so I just assume everyone else
also tries to see all sides of any given situation. But at some point we
have to take action and we have to be practical. A judge may be good at
impartially hearing arguments from both sides, but he also makes a decision
in the end.

When it comes to running our list on our server, AOL is wrong to attempt to
conceal the member identity (both by obfuscation and policy). I'll
elaborate why I come down to that decision while accepting that AOL's
position is (or was) right for them in a certain set of circumstances that
existed when they wrote their TOS.

Our list does not contain any spam. There is no spam problem to fix. Every
post to our list is moderated by a human and we reject posts even from
well-known members when those posts don't meet our guidelines. There is no
way to eliminate something that doesn't exist.

Furthermore, without exception on our list, when an AOL user triggers a
feedback report, they do so on *all* the emails from our list that are
currently in their inbox. There is zero content-specific selectivity. I've
never seen it (on our list). So we may get a dozen or more feedback reports
within a minute, all triggered by the same user and without regard for the
actual content of the messages. I believe I have evidence that would prove
this to any rational person, and I suspect most other people on this list
could put together similar evidence (if they are running spam-free lists
like ours).

This is absolutely *not* a content problem, as AOL would like to pretend
(or define it to be in their TOS). They can define the problem any way they
wish, but the reality is that this is a problem with specific users, not
with content.

Therefore, while AOL can define any policy they wish, their current policy
is completely broken for most of us. Since any and all valid content from
our list can trigger an AOL feedback abuse report, to comply strictly and
eliminate these abuse reports would mean shutting down our list completely.
They give no other option that I can see.

Given that thousands of members value our list greatly, shutting it down to
comply with AOL's broken policy is not a viable solution.

The only solution (given our situation where the trigger is not
content-specific) is to remove the member who won't remove themselves. My
statements may not apply to all users of Mailman, but they are facts in our
specific situation. And all I can deal with are the facts. Therefore, if
our list is to survive (and provide a service to any AOL user), we have to
remove individual AOL users in response to these feedback reports. We have
to do that or we have to shut down Mailman or we have to face having our
server blacklisted. I choose to take the reasonable course of action which
allows me to do the most good for the most people.

In fact, in our specific situation, everyone wins nearly every time. And in
the rare case (hasn't happened yet) that we remove an AOL member who marked
us as spam by mistake, we can easily fix that with little damage or cost to
anyone. So this is not only the reasonable course of action, it is the one
which does the least harm.

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Tue Jun 19 21:07:16 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:07:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <87wr339mtd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
	<871ulbbtdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340117966.28364.95.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87wr339mtd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1340132836.32711.40.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Wed, 2012-06-20 at 03:30 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Lindsay Haisley writes:
> 
>  > EVERP = Encrypted VERP
> 
> Ever heard of "Occam's Razor"?

Yes, I'm quite familiar with it :)

> Most folks who run Mailman lists can't
> expand "VERP", and wouldn't understand the expansion when told.  It's
> not obvious to me that practioners would get it right, either.  Let's
> not proliferate unnecessary acronyms.

I would not presume on the patience of the world (nor of the people on
this list) by seriously proposing a YASA (Yet Another Stupid Acronym).
My use of EVERP was for reference purposes on this list only.  All other
uses are explicitly and strictly prohibited.

> N.B. That expansion doesn't say what kind of values the "variable"
> takes, although the usual implementation assumes a friendly Internet
> and uses addressee mailboxes.  Wikipedia says, "However, some VERP
> implementations use message number or random key as part of VERP",
> which is close enough to "encrypted VERP" for me, YMMV.  It's just an
> implementation detail that really only concerns implementers....

Exactly.  VERP refers to the concept of including a delivery address
within the envelope sender address, which takes advantage of the
RFC-prescribed practice of returning undeliverable email to the envelope
sender address.

> I'm not sure of this, but it seems to me that encrypted VERP should
> work fine with greylisted recipients (if you can ever call the results
> of greylisting "fine" :-P) as long as you don't change the encryption
> key very often.

Well the implementation I've developed for use with Resent-Message-ID
incorporates a random factor into the AES encryption so that every
encryption of the same address is different, although all decrypt
properly using the key with which they were encrypted.  This could, of
course, be changed.

> In Mailman 3, I would suppose it won't be hard to store the encrypted
> form along with the rest of the user's profile.

Yes, which would make the VERP consistent, if greylisting cares.  It
might also be possible to generate and store encryption keys per list
rather than per site, as my experimental implementation (mm 2.1.15)
does. 

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Tue Jun 19 21:20:32 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:20:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU76P_f_3au0fbHTZ75wAPUD45XVUFDgtebLMuYs22ziXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH=dxU76P_f_3au0fbHTZ75wAPUD45XVUFDgtebLMuYs22ziXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340133632.32711.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 15:05 -0400, David wrote:
> Furthermore, without exception on our list, when an AOL user triggers
> a feedback report, they do so on all the emails from our list that are
> currently in their inbox. There is zero content-specific selectivity.
> I've never seen it (on our list). So we may get a dozen or more
> feedback reports within a minute, all triggered by the same user and
> without regard for the actual content of the messages.

I've seen this as well on a number of occasions.  As I noted in my
previous email, a lot of people, I might say _especially_ AOL users, are
not highly computer literate, and many may indeed be computer-phobic.
They don't have the patience or confidence to follow the directions
provided to properly unsubscribe from a list, so they just find all the
list posts that they can and report them as spam, hoping that AOL will
help them unsubscribe.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "We have met the enemy and he is us."
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |          -- Pogo
http://www.fmp.com    |


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun 19 21:21:58 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 04:21:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206192133570.2144@data.home>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
	<871ulbbtdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340117966.28364.95.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87wr339mtd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1206192133570.2144@data.home>
Message-ID: <87vcin9kfd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Geoff Shang writes:

 > > Ah, but we can just say "this allows us to VERP without exposing
 > > addresses on anybody's disk; this helps protect your users' privacy."
 > 
 > Oh the irony.

Thank you for noticing!

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun 19 21:56:51 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 04:56:51 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340132836.32711.40.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<7BF025BB-5A99-448A-9C83-9690E3C6B436@shub-internet.org>
	<871ulbbtdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340117966.28364.95.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87wr339mtd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340132836.32711.40.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87txy79it8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > Well the implementation I've developed for use with Resent-Message-ID
 > incorporates a random factor into the AES encryption so that every
 > encryption of the same address is different, although all decrypt
 > properly using the key with which they were encrypted.  This could, of
 > course, be changed.

It sounds like it would be easy enough to make it a parameter, to be
disabled only if a list has trouble with greylisting.

 > > In Mailman 3, I would suppose it won't be hard to store the encrypted
 > > form along with the rest of the user's profile.
 > 
 > Yes, which would make the VERP consistent, if greylisting cares.

I had more in mind very high volume sites where the expense of
encryption would be a factor in achieving timely delivery.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun 19 22:04:04 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 05:04:04 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340133632.32711.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH=dxU76P_f_3au0fbHTZ75wAPUD45XVUFDgtebLMuYs22ziXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340133632.32711.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87sjdr9ih7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > provided to properly unsubscribe from a list, so they just find all the
 > list posts that they can and report them as spam, hoping that AOL will
 > help them unsubscribe.

Which is exactly what AOL's feedback service is designed to
prevent. :-(  More irony....

The sad thing is that most Mailman lists will have a List-Unsubscribe
header, so AOL could provide an actual unsubscribe button.

Hm ... I wonder if it would be possible to use DKIM or other
signatures that are typically present to verify that *that* user did
indeed hit unsubscribe?  (And it wasn't a malicious third party or
another AOLuser who hit the unsubscribe link in the 23rd footer
instead of the 24th....)  Not that this would help for AOL, since the
heads are wa-a-ay up where the sun don's shine, but it's an often-
requested feature in general.


From mike at writestarr.com  Tue Jun 19 21:48:03 2012
From: mike at writestarr.com (Mike Starr)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:48:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU76P_f_3au0fbHTZ75wAPUD45XVUFDgtebLMuYs22ziXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH=dxU76P_f_3au0fbHTZ75wAPUD45XVUFDgtebLMuYs22ziXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE0D773.1090905@writestarr.com>

This has been a fascinating discussion that I've been enjoying very much.

However, one thing we need to remember is that we, as list administrators, usually (but not always) have far greater insight than the average user into the realities of what spam is and what spam isn't. Most of us understand the technical definitions of what spam is. But there's a massive amount of users who don't have a clue. They may believe that the email that expresses an opinion (conforming to the TOS of the mailing list to which they're subscribed) that they vehemently disagree with *is* spam. They also may have never even scanned the bottom of each email they receive from their mailing list and noticed the (usually) clear instructions for unsubscribing from the list. How often have we all seen an email posted to one of our lists that says "Unsubscribe me from this list" or perhaps "stop sending me this crap"?

Many of the mailman cognoscenti are highly skilled technical folks with little respect (and often little tolerance) for clueless users. Sometimes you just have to choke back the bile and lovingly correct those who have less understanding. Perhaps the unsubscribe message should also contain something like "The email messages you've received as a subscriber to this mailing list are *not spam*. Messages from new users are all approved by the list moderator until that moderator is convinced that the subscriber is not a spammer.  If you reported a message from this list as spam to your email provider we'll unsubscribe you as soon as we find out about it. If you reported a message as spam accidentally and don't want to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, click *here*."

Best regards,

Mike
-- 
Mike Starr                             WriteStarr Information Services
Technical Writer   -    Online Help Developer   -   WordPress Websites
Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates
(262) 694-1028   -  mike at writestarr.com   -  http://www.writestarr.com
President, Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/

From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Wed Jun 20 00:51:36 2012
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:51:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <20120619225136.GA25025@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 11:58:46PM -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> I have no idea why AOL wants to make it difficult for list
> administrators to unsubscribe people who don't want to be subscribed
> and who complain to AOL about list posts being spam.

To prevent listwashing or retaliation, for one thing, and also to
protect (to some extent) their users' privacy. I think the point of the
FBL is more to alert you to problems on your network, than to assist you
in listwashing. Yes, people will click the "report spam" link by
accident occasionally, but probably not often enough to get you flagged
as a spam source if your lists are genuinely legitimate, and use a
closed-loop confirmation process.

I haven't been on an AOL FBL for a long time, but does the munging in
question remove the queue-ID and message-ID? Otherwise, it should be
very simple to find the subscriber by looking at your own logs.

But honestly, AOL is not the 500 lb gorilla they once were, so I
wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it.

w


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Wed Jun 20 01:36:30 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:36:30 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <20120619225136.GA25025@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<20120619225136.GA25025@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
Message-ID: <1340148990.32711.63.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 15:51 -0700, William Yardley wrote:
> I think the point of the
> FBL is more to alert you to problems on your network

What problems???  I'm running a collection of opt-in Mailman lists,
administered by FMP's customers.  There are no problems.

> eYes, people will click the "report spam" link by
> accident occasionally

No, more often than not these reports come in bunches, initiated by the
same user.  The "report spam" button was obviously pressed with intent.

> , but probably not often enough to get you flagged
> as a spam source if your lists are genuinely legitimate, and use a
> closed-loop confirmation process.

This is probably true.

> But honestly, AOL is not the 500 lb gorilla they once were, so I
> wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it.

This is also probably true, fortunately, and in fact the importance of
AOL (or lack thereof) probably doesn't warrant the time we've put in
discussing their misbegotten policies :)

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Fighting against human creativity is like 
FMP Computer Services |   trying to eradicate dandelions"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    |       -- Pamela Jones


From dave at fiteyes.com  Wed Jun 20 01:56:35 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (Dave (FitEyes))
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:56:35 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <20120619225136.GA25025@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<20120619225136.GA25025@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
Message-ID: <CAO_HRLvquMvMyNVL1edwvyFd2uQgZiwkMWaz5dUBxOJfezW7SA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 6:51 PM, William Yardley
<mailman at veggiechinese.net>wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 11:58:46PM -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> > I have no idea why AOL wants to make it difficult for list
> > administrators to unsubscribe people who don't want to be subscribed
> > and who complain to AOL about list posts being spam.
>
> To prevent listwashing or retaliation, for one thing, and also to
> protect (to some extent) their users' privacy. I think the point of the
> FBL is more to alert you to problems on your network, than to assist you
> in listwashing. Yes, people will click the "report spam" link by
> accident occasionally, but probably not often enough to get you flagged
> as a spam source if your lists are genuinely legitimate, and use a
> closed-loop confirmation process.
>

Is this true? We had one AOL member flag almost 50 of our list's messages
as spam today. This person joined us in December 2011. He/she joined via
the website and confirmed via email, but then he didn't actively post to
the list and we didn't hear a single thing from him/her until today --
then, wham, almost 50 abuse reports from this one person today.

We unsubscribed the person today.

Do today's 50 abuse reports really have insufficient power to damage our
reputation?

Could this person continue to mark large numbers of our lists messages as
spam without it affecting our reputation or our ability to deliver to AOL
users who want to receive our messages? Before we figured out how to
identify and remove such people, they would just continue to mark our
messages as spam every single day. That won't hurt our reputation over time?



I haven't been on an AOL FBL for a long time, but does the munging in
> question remove the queue-ID and message-ID? Otherwise, it should be
> very simple to find the subscriber by looking at your own logs.
>


That's what we are doing now. But it is only possible if you VERP every
message and have accessible logs. There was earlier discussion about the
fact that these abuse reports can relate to very old messages and those
logs may have been archived or removed.

From rclemings at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 02:17:09 2012
From: rclemings at gmail.com (Russell Clemings)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:17:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
Message-ID: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm surprised to read in this thread that the terms of service for AOL's
feedback loop forbid us from using its reports to identify users.

The page where you sign up for the FBL seems to say just the opposite (end
of third paragraph):

"We suggest using opaque identifiers for the email recipient or a custom
remove link in the body of the email to help you identify the original
recipient of the message."

http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.FeedbackLoop.php

rac

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jun 20 02:28:01 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:28:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
	full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <90D05177-A4B6-493D-ADFA-92B4677EA6EE@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 19, 2012, at 5:17 PM, Russell Clemings wrote:

> I'm surprised to read in this thread that the terms of service for AOL's
> feedback loop forbid us from using its reports to identify users.
> 
> The page where you sign up for the FBL seems to say just the opposite (end
> of third paragraph):
> 
> "We suggest using opaque identifiers for the email recipient or a custom
> remove link in the body of the email to help you identify the original
> recipient of the message."
> 
> http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.FeedbackLoop.php

I haven't read the page in question in the last few years, but assuming what you've quoted is accurate then this would be a "recent development" in the life of the AOL FBL as I know it.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From dave at fiteyes.com  Wed Jun 20 02:42:14 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (Dave (FitEyes))
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:42:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Russell Clemings <rclemings at gmail.com>wrote:

> I'm surprised to read in this thread that the terms of service for AOL's
> feedback loop forbid us from using its reports to identify users.
>
> The page where you sign up for the FBL seems to say just the opposite (end
> of third paragraph):
>
> "We suggest using opaque identifiers for the email recipient or a custom
> remove link in the body of the email to help you identify the original
> recipient of the message."
>
> http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.FeedbackLoop.php
>

Way to embarrass all of us who didn't take the time to actually read the
TOS! ;-)

Now that you motivated me, I actually read the blog post too:
http://postmaster-blog.aol.com/2008/08/13/more-on-the-upcoming-feedback-loop-conversion/

It now seems pretty clear that we can use these reports in the way Lindsay
and others have proposed.

Thanks!

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Wed Jun 20 02:55:30 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:55:30 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340153730.32711.65.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 20:42 -0400, Dave (FitEyes) wrote:
> Now that you motivated me, I actually read the blog post too:
> http://postmaster-blog.aol.com/2008/08/13/more-on-the-upcoming-feedback-loop-conversion/
> 
> It now seems pretty clear that we can use these reports in the way
> Lindsay and others have proposed.
> 
Well if this is so, are they still redacting the VERP recipient
addresses?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       |  "We are all broken toasters, but we still
FMP Computer Services |    manage to make toast"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    |        - Cheryl Dehut



From dave at fiteyes.com  Wed Jun 20 03:07:03 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (Dave (FitEyes))
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:07:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340153730.32711.65.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340153730.32711.65.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <CAO_HRLtgh=Wk1mYD3rGqm+bYOXJc34w6_=OBOZc3EYZGsUiJ1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com>wrote:

> On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 20:42 -0400, Dave (FitEyes) wrote:
> > Now that you motivated me, I actually read the blog post too:
> >
> http://postmaster-blog.aol.com/2008/08/13/more-on-the-upcoming-feedback-loop-conversion/
> >
> > It now seems pretty clear that we can use these reports in the way
> > Lindsay and others have proposed.
> >
> Well if this is so, are they still redacting the VERP recipient
> addresses?
>

Yes.

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 20 04:39:35 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:39:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] cgi/create and local use - trouble...
In-Reply-To: <20120618125551.M91463@brightstar.bomgardner.net>
Message-ID: <PC19520120619193935087544c3d78e@Notebook-09>

gene wrote:

>I have a lan with several machines on it. I've installed MM 2.1.14 on the 
>unix host 'genesis' which also runs my apache server. In order to browse to 
>genesis' web server from within the lan, I have to use something like:
> "http://genesis/mailman/listinfo"
>Using the fqdn (genesis.domain.net or domain.net) just times out.


Why? This would seem to be a network configuration issue, and fixing it
would semm to be the "correct" solution to your problem.

Possibly an entry in /etc/hosts like

ip.of.mm.host  genesis.domain.net

or even

127.0.0.1  genesis.domain.net

at least on the MM machine would be enough.


>So when I tried to use cgi/create (web) to create a list, I got:
>"Unknown virtual domain: genesis"
>
>So in mm_cfg.py I put the following:
>
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'genesis.domain.net'
>DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'genesis.domain.net'
>
>add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)


The above are correct.


>add_virtualhost('genesis.domain.net')

The above line effectively replaces

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

with

add_virtualhost('genesis.domain.net', 'domain.net')

which is probably not correct if DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST =
'genesis.domain.net' is what you want, so should be removed.


>add_virtualhost('genesis')
>
>That solved the virtual host problem, but now, when using cgi/create to 
>create the list "test" I get:
>
>'Illegal list name: test@'       < note no domain name


Because

add_virtualhost('genesis')

is equivalent to

add_virtualhost('genesis', '')

which is clearly not what you want.

If add_virtualhost is given only one argument (web host) the
corresponding email host is created by stripping everythig through the
first '.' from the argument.


>So I tried creating test with the fqdn and was told that the '@' was not 
>allowed in the list name (makes sense). I was able to create the list using 
>bin/newlist, bur it seems the newlist creates lists as private, not public, 
>lists.


What do you mean by private vs public? There should be no difference
except possibly for the web and email hostnames.


>So...  does anyone know how this script can be used locally as well as from 
>outside the lan?


Use only the fully qualified domain name and fix your network so it
works from inside the LAN.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Wed Jun 20 05:58:50 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:58:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAO_HRLtgh=Wk1mYD3rGqm+bYOXJc34w6_=OBOZc3EYZGsUiJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340153730.32711.65.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAO_HRLtgh=Wk1mYD3rGqm+bYOXJc34w6_=OBOZc3EYZGsUiJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340164730.32711.82.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 21:07 -0400, Dave (FitEyes) wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com> wrote:
>         On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 20:42 -0400, Dave (FitEyes) wrote:
>         > It now seems pretty clear that we can use these reports in the way
>         > Lindsay and others have proposed.
>
>         Well if this is so, are they still redacting the VERP
>         recipient
>         addresses?
> 
> Yes.
> 
Reading in <http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.FeedbackLoop.php+> it
seems that "[AOL suggests] using opaque identifiers for the email
recipient or a custom remove link in the body of the email to help you
identify the original recipient of the message."

I would assume that an AES-encrypted email address in Resent-Message-ID
or in the VERP address, or even a hashed recipient address in a custom
header such as X-Subdata, all of which have been discussed here, would
meet the criterion of being an "opaque identifier".  Does this sound
logical?

Of these, an encrypted or hashed recip address in the VERP envelope
header seems the most logical, since it seems that we don't have to go
"stealth" with this one.  Any chance of requesting this in Mailman 3?

Looking at a recent Email Feedback Report it looks as if the list name
is also pretty well redacted, except in the message footer, the format
of which is up to individual list administrators, so maybe the list name
or address should be included in this or another encrypted header as
well.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       |  "The voice of dissent was arrested before
FMP Computer Services |     the president cleared his throat to
512-259-1190          |        speak of freedom"
http://www.fmp.com    |
                      |            -- Chris Chandler


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Jun 20 07:39:30 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 14:39:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340164730.32711.82.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340153730.32711.65.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAO_HRLtgh=Wk1mYD3rGqm+bYOXJc34w6_=OBOZc3EYZGsUiJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340164730.32711.82.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87pq8ua6el.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > Any chance of requesting this in Mailman 3?

As usual, the advice is to file a bug report/RFE on Launchpad, Mailman
project, tag it Mailman 3 (or maybe that's milestone Mailman 3?)

If you want more discussion from the core people (well, Barry; Mark's
presumably already said everything he wants to say about this subject
:-), you could send mail to mailman-developers, but I think this idea
is already pretty well-baked, and maybe you even have a patch you
could attach to the issue?

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Wed Jun 20 08:11:27 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 01:11:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <87pq8ua6el.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340153730.32711.65.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAO_HRLtgh=Wk1mYD3rGqm+bYOXJc34w6_=OBOZc3EYZGsUiJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340164730.32711.82.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87pq8ua6el.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1340172687.23543.33.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Wed, 2012-06-20 at 14:39 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Lindsay Haisley writes:
> 
>  > Any chance of requesting this in Mailman 3?
> 
> As usual, the advice is to file a bug report/RFE on Launchpad, Mailman
> project, tag it Mailman 3 (or maybe that's milestone Mailman 3?)
> 
> If you want more discussion from the core people (well, Barry; Mark's
> presumably already said everything he wants to say about this subject
> :-), you could send mail to mailman-developers, but I think this idea
> is already pretty well-baked, and maybe you even have a patch you
> could attach to the issue?

I was thinking of posting to the dev list, to which I also subscribe,
and inquiring with regard to the advisability of putting this, as you
suggested, into the Resent-Message-ID header, as opposed to the VERP
address or some custom header.

My thinking, from corresponding with Dave and my own observation, is
that both the list address and the recipient address should be AES
encrypted and passed in a single header, and because this information is
pretty much guaranteed to be unique per message, given that my AES
encryption routine uses random input, using the Resent-Message-ID header
would fulfill a dual purpose and satisfy RFC 2822.  The use of this
header would depend on whether the current v3 development blueprint has
plans for this header which would preempt its use for this purpose.

I posted code and patches earlier on this list, but the patch is against
Mailman 2.1.15 rather than Mailman 3, which is the current development
focus.  I imagine it's rather different.  I'd have to take a look at the
code and figure out where the patch might go.

I'm also not up on what the execution time hit would be in generating a
short AES cipher for each outgoing message.  This might be considerable
on a large list with many thousands of subscribers.  As it is now, in my
patch, if VERP is not enabled, or there is no personalization, which I
believe excludes VERP, then no encrypted recipient cipher would be
generated.

When I get a chance I'll take a look at the v3 code.



From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Jun 20 08:42:08 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 15:42:08 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340172687.23543.33.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340153730.32711.65.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAO_HRLtgh=Wk1mYD3rGqm+bYOXJc34w6_=OBOZc3EYZGsUiJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340164730.32711.82.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87pq8ua6el.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340172687.23543.33.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87mx3ya3i7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > I posted code and patches earlier on this list, but the patch is against
 > Mailman 2.1.15 rather than Mailman 3, which is the current development
 > focus.  I imagine it's rather different.

The code is organized quite differently, but I suspect that the
handler architecture will look familiar to you.

From fmouse at fmp.com  Tue Jun 19 23:23:30 2012
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:23:30 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <4FE0D773.1090905@writestarr.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH=dxU76P_f_3au0fbHTZ75wAPUD45XVUFDgtebLMuYs22ziXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FE0D773.1090905@writestarr.com>
Message-ID: <1340141010.32711.56.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 14:48 -0500, Mike Starr wrote:
> Many of the mailman cognoscenti are highly skilled technical folks
> with little respect (and often little tolerance) for clueless users.
> Sometimes you just have to choke back the bile and lovingly correct
> those who have less understanding.

On the lists which I administer myself I try to make the unsubscribe
process very easy and transparent.  Every user who tries,
unsuccessfully, to unsubscribe is sent the following clear and
unambiguous message with easy-to-follow instructions:

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 11:18 PM, Mary Fireman <maryjane at fortuitus.net>
wrote:
        unsubscribe
        
Hmph.  You can't get out that easy.

Please Note:  In some later model unsubscribe kits, the "OFF" indicator
has been replaced by "POWER-UP STANDBY ENABLE".  Accordingly the "ON"
indicator has been replaced by the much clearer, "POWER-DOWN STANDBY
ENABLE".  Contact your internet service provider for a list of affected
model numbers.  An "ON-OFF" retrofit panel kit is available for those
who have difficulty with the new and much clearer labeling.

First, ask your Internet Provider to mail you an Unsubscribing Kit. Then
follow these directions. The kit will most likely be the standard
no-fault type. Depending on requirements, System A and/or System B can
be used. When operating System A, depress lever and a plastic dalkron
unsubscriber will be dispensed through the slot immediately underneath.
When you have fastened the adhesive lip, attach connection marked by the
large "X" outlet hose. Twist the silver-coloured ring one inch below 
the connection point until you feel it lock.

The kit is now ready for use. The Cin-Eliminator is activated by the
small switch on the lip. When securing, twist the ring back to its
initial condition, so that the two orange lines meet. Disconnect. Place
the dalkron unsubscriber in the vacuum receptacle to the rear. Activate
by pressing the blue button.

The controls for System B are located on the opposite side. The red
release switch places the Cin-Eliminator into position; it can be
adjusted manually up or down by pressing the blue manual release button.
The opening is self-adjusting. To secure after use, press the green
button, which simultaneously activates the evaporator and returns the
Cin-Eliminator to its storage position.

You may log off if the green exit light is on over the evaporator . If
the red light is illuminated, one of the Cin-Eliminator requirements has
not been properly implemented. Press the "List Guy" call button on the
right of the evaporator . He will secure all facilities from his control
panel.

To use the Auto-Unsub, first undress and place all your clothes in the
clothes rack. Put on the velcro slippers located in the cabinet
immediately below. Enter the shower, taking the entire kit with you. On
the control panel to your upper right upon entering you will see a
"Shower seal" button. Press to activate. A green light will then be 
illuminated immediately below. On the intensity knob, select the desired
setting. Now depress the Auto-Unsub activation lever. Bathe normally.

The Auto-Unsub will automatically go off after three minutes unless you
activate the "Manual off" override switch by flipping it up. When you
are ready to leave, press the blue "Shower seal" release button. The
door will open and you may leave. Please remove the velcro slippers and
place them in their container.

If you prefer the ultrasonic log-off mode, press the indicated blue
button. When the twin panels open, pull forward by rings A & B. The knob
to the left, just below the blue light, has three settings, low, medium
or high. For normal use, the medium setting is suggested.

After these settings have been made, you can activate the device by
switching to the "ON" position the clearly marked red switch. If during
the unsubscribing operation, you wish to change the settings, place the
"manual off" override switch in the "OFF" position. You may now make the
change and repeat the cycle. When the green exit light goes on, you may
log off and have lunch. Please close the door behind you.


Occam's Razor strikes again!!


-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Everything works if you let it"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |          --- The Roadie
http://www.fmp.com    |


From fmouse at fmp.com  Wed Jun 20 02:54:34 2012
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:54:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340153674.32711.64.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 20:42 -0400, Dave (FitEyes) wrote:
> Now that you motivated me, I actually read the blog post too:
> http://postmaster-blog.aol.com/2008/08/13/more-on-the-upcoming-feedback-loop-conversion/
> 
> It now seems pretty clear that we can use these reports in the way
> Lindsay and others have proposed.
> 
Well if this is so, are they still redacting the VERP recipient
addresses?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       |  "We are all broken toasters, but we still
FMP Computer Services |    manage to make toast"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    |        - Cheryl Dehut


From W.Janssen at uci.ru.nl  Wed Jun 20 11:45:51 2012
From: W.Janssen at uci.ru.nl (Willy Janssen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 11:45:51 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting bounce_notify_owner_on_disable not working
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206201118580.18498@reliant.uci.ru.nl>

Hello,

One user of a small mailing list was set to "no mail", reason: "B -- 
Delivery was disabled by the system due to excessive bouncing from the 
member's address". Ok, that's fine. The problem is that I, the list 
administrator, got no notification although 
"bounce_notify_owner_on_disable" is set.

Any explanation?

Mailman 2.1.13

Regards, Willy Janssen

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 20 16:58:18 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 07:58:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting bounce_notify_owner_on_disable not
	working
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206201118580.18498@reliant.uci.ru.nl>
Message-ID: <PC1952012062007581807206aa9dae2@Notebook-09>

Willy Janssen wrote:
>
>One user of a small mailing list was set to "no mail", reason: "B -- 
>Delivery was disabled by the system due to excessive bouncing from the 
>member's address". Ok, that's fine. The problem is that I, the list 
>administrator, got no notification although 
>"bounce_notify_owner_on_disable" is set.
>
>Any explanation?


Is mail to LISTNAME-owner delivered?

Check Mailman's bounce log to find when the disable occurred. Then
check Mailman's smtp log at the same timestamp to see if there is a
pair of entries similar to

Jun 17 12:53:46 2012 (8882)
<mailman.200.1339962825.8880.listname at example.com> smtp to listname
for 1 recips, completed in 0.024 seconds

Jun 17 12:53:51 2012 (8882)
<mailman.200.1339962825.8880.listname at example.com> smtp to listname
for N recips, completed in 0.025 seconds

Note the mailman generated message id. the first is the message to
listname-owner and the second is the resend to the N owners and
moderators.

Also check the MTA logs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From rsk at gsp.org  Wed Jun 20 19:25:58 2012
From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:25:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Possible (benign) typo in Mailman 2.1.15 file
	"UPGRADING"
Message-ID: <20120620172558.GA9560@gsp.org>

This file has a section which describes the 2.1.14 to 2.1.15 upgrade
process.  It reads in part:

	"The bin/upgrade script, which is run automatically when you
	upgrade, should convert all the old style qfiles to the new
	style qfiles."

However, I don't seem to have a bin/upgrade script; I've got a bin/update
script.  My guess is that it's just a typo in the documentation.

---rsk

From rpschwar at knology.net  Wed Jun 20 20:22:22 2012
From: rpschwar at knology.net (rpschwar at knology.net)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 14:22:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderators approval
Message-ID: <13770.1340216542@knology.net>

Moderators are not getting notices that messages are waiting for Moderators approval.



Robert P. Schwartz



From mike at writestarr.com  Wed Jun 20 21:41:00 2012
From: mike at writestarr.com (Mike Starr)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 14:41:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340141010.32711.56.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH=dxU76P_f_3au0fbHTZ75wAPUD45XVUFDgtebLMuYs22ziXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FE0D773.1090905@writestarr.com>
	<1340141010.32711.56.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <4FE2274C.8090004@writestarr.com>

Ah, if only I could write documentation as clear as that!

Best regards,

Mike
-- 
Mike Starr                             WriteStarr Information Services
Technical Writer   -    Online Help Developer   -   WordPress Websites
Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates
(262) 694-1028   -  mike at writestarr.com   -  http://www.writestarr.com
President, Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/


On 6/19/2012 4:23 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 14:48 -0500, Mike Starr wrote:
>> Many of the mailman cognoscenti are highly skilled technical folks
>> with little respect (and often little tolerance) for clueless users.
>> Sometimes you just have to choke back the bile and lovingly correct
>> those who have less understanding.
>
> On the lists which I administer myself I try to make the unsubscribe
> process very easy and transparent.  Every user who tries,
> unsuccessfully, to unsubscribe is sent the following clear and
> unambiguous message with easy-to-follow instructions:
>
> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 11:18 PM, Mary Fireman <maryjane at fortuitus.net>
> wrote:
>          unsubscribe
>
> Hmph.  You can't get out that easy.
>
> Please Note:  In some later model unsubscribe kits, the "OFF" indicator
> has been replaced by "POWER-UP STANDBY ENABLE".  Accordingly the "ON"
> indicator has been replaced by the much clearer, "POWER-DOWN STANDBY
> ENABLE".  Contact your internet service provider for a list of affected
> model numbers.  An "ON-OFF" retrofit panel kit is available for those
> who have difficulty with the new and much clearer labeling.
>
> First, ask your Internet Provider to mail you an Unsubscribing Kit. Then
> follow these directions. The kit will most likely be the standard
> no-fault type. Depending on requirements, System A and/or System B can
> be used. When operating System A, depress lever and a plastic dalkron
> unsubscriber will be dispensed through the slot immediately underneath.
> When you have fastened the adhesive lip, attach connection marked by the
> large "X" outlet hose. Twist the silver-coloured ring one inch below
> the connection point until you feel it lock.
>
> The kit is now ready for use. The Cin-Eliminator is activated by the
> small switch on the lip. When securing, twist the ring back to its
> initial condition, so that the two orange lines meet. Disconnect. Place
> the dalkron unsubscriber in the vacuum receptacle to the rear. Activate
> by pressing the blue button.
>
> The controls for System B are located on the opposite side. The red
> release switch places the Cin-Eliminator into position; it can be
> adjusted manually up or down by pressing the blue manual release button.
> The opening is self-adjusting. To secure after use, press the green
> button, which simultaneously activates the evaporator and returns the
> Cin-Eliminator to its storage position.
>
> You may log off if the green exit light is on over the evaporator . If
> the red light is illuminated, one of the Cin-Eliminator requirements has
> not been properly implemented. Press the "List Guy" call button on the
> right of the evaporator . He will secure all facilities from his control
> panel.
>
> To use the Auto-Unsub, first undress and place all your clothes in the
> clothes rack. Put on the velcro slippers located in the cabinet
> immediately below. Enter the shower, taking the entire kit with you. On
> the control panel to your upper right upon entering you will see a
> "Shower seal" button. Press to activate. A green light will then be
> illuminated immediately below. On the intensity knob, select the desired
> setting. Now depress the Auto-Unsub activation lever. Bathe normally.
>
> The Auto-Unsub will automatically go off after three minutes unless you
> activate the "Manual off" override switch by flipping it up. When you
> are ready to leave, press the blue "Shower seal" release button. The
> door will open and you may leave. Please remove the velcro slippers and
> place them in their container.
>
> If you prefer the ultrasonic log-off mode, press the indicated blue
> button. When the twin panels open, pull forward by rings A & B. The knob
> to the left, just below the blue light, has three settings, low, medium
> or high. For normal use, the medium setting is suggested.
>
> After these settings have been made, you can activate the device by
> switching to the "ON" position the clearly marked red switch. If during
> the unsubscribing operation, you wish to change the settings, place the
> "manual off" override switch in the "OFF" position. You may now make the
> change and repeat the cycle. When the green exit light goes on, you may
> log off and have lunch. Please close the door behind you.
>
>
> Occam's Razor strikes again!!
>
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 21 01:07:22 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:07:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderators approval
In-Reply-To: <13770.1340216542@knology.net>
Message-ID: <PC195201206201607220974182fdbe4@Notebook-09>

rpschwar at knology.net wrote:

>Moderators are not getting notices that messages are waiting for Moderators approval.


Do they not get any notices including the daily summary of pending
requests?

Is the list's admin_immediate_notify set to Yes?

Is mail to LISTNAME-owner at ... delivered to owners/moderators.

See
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-June/073764.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 21 01:28:34 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:28:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Possible (benign) typo in Mailman 2.1.15
	file"UPGRADING"
In-Reply-To: <20120620172558.GA9560@gsp.org>
Message-ID: <PC1952012062016283401567435d4be@Notebook-09>

Rich Kulawiec wrote:

>This file has a section which describes the 2.1.14 to 2.1.15 upgrade
>process.  It reads in part:
>
>	"The bin/upgrade script, which is run automatically when you
>	upgrade, should convert all the old style qfiles to the new
>	style qfiles."
>
>However, I don't seem to have a bin/upgrade script; I've got a bin/update
>script.  My guess is that it's just a typo in the documentation.


Yes, it is a typo in the documentation, but you also misread it. That
paragraph is in the section on upgrading from 2.1.4 to 2.1.5, not
2.1.14 to 2.1.15. Since 2.1.5, there have been no changes requiring
more than the general "UPGRADING FROM PREVIOUS VERSIONS" section at
the beginning.

I will fix the typo.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Thu Jun 21 02:45:44 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 19:45:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trying to install mm 3.0.0b1
Message-ID: <1340239544.20333.3.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

I sent this to the dev list and didn't get any answers.  It's probably
more appropriate on this list anyway.

I'm trying to install mm 3.0.0b1 as per the directions in START.rst.
I'm running into a bit of a problem with zc.buildout. in the
bootstrap.py script.  The script reports:

$ python bootstrap.py 
Downloading http://pypi.python.org/packages/2.7/s/setuptools/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.7.egg
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "bootstrap.py", line 254, in <module>
    ws.require(requirement)
  File "/tmp/tmp6ebmh9/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.7.egg/pkg_resources.py", line 666, in require
  File "/tmp/tmp6ebmh9/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.7.egg/pkg_resources.py", line 565, in resolve
pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: zc.buildout==1.5.2

However;

$ dpkg -l python-zc.buildout
Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
| Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend
|/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
||/ Name                               Version                            Description
+++-==================================-==================================-==
ii  python-zc.buildout                 1.5.2-1                            system for managing development buildouts

I explicitly installed it!  Do I need to update the mm3 package?

Where do I go from here?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Everything works if you let it"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |          --- The Roadie
http://www.fmp.com    |



From rclemings at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 03:23:27 2012
From: rclemings at gmail.com (Russell Clemings)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:23:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN7RX0YRbNQs6dAFHThte5Ah+AMArqoETXuHdWfDPAaVM+sSJA@mail.gmail.com>

>From the reports I've received, it looks as if they redact only from the
headers. With personalization on, I put a "%(user_address)s" token in the
non-digest footer and as of the last report I got (June 8) it came through
the feedback loop intact. I've never figured out a similar fix for digests,
however, and that seems to be where most of the reports come from. So maybe
there's room for a new approach there.

rac

---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com>
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:54:34 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
> full personalization enabled
> On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 20:42 -0400, Dave (FitEyes) wrote:
> > Now that you motivated me, I actually read the blog post too:
> >
> http://postmaster-blog.aol.com/2008/08/13/more-on-the-upcoming-feedback-loop-conversion/
> >
> > It now seems pretty clear that we can use these reports in the way
> > Lindsay and others have proposed.
> >
> Well if this is so, are they still redacting the VERP recipient
> addresses?
>
> --
> Lindsay Haisley       |  "We are all broken toasters, but we still
> FMP Computer Services |    manage to make toast"
> 512-259-1190          |
> http://www.fmp.com    |        - Cheryl Dehut
>
>
>

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Thu Jun 21 03:52:26 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:52:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <CAN7RX0YRbNQs6dAFHThte5Ah+AMArqoETXuHdWfDPAaVM+sSJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZwcXKiRWqrDHCOAGyhe-+9PgM0r6ou3K7ixXctCy0EqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO_HRLtBmpWRM9wHyQueZrqEmM8+LtYYGwgdq6mGhT0sERDF0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAN7RX0YRbNQs6dAFHThte5Ah+AMArqoETXuHdWfDPAaVM+sSJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340243546.20333.22.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Wed, 2012-06-20 at 18:23 -0700, Russell Clemings wrote:
> >From the reports I've received, it looks as if they redact only from the
> headers. With personalization on, I put a "%(user_address)s" token in the
> non-digest footer and as of the last report I got (June 8) it came through
> the feedback loop intact.

This may be true, however relying on cleartext in the footer information
to identify the recipient has two problems.  

First, it restricts the freedom of the list administrator to put
whatever he/she wants in the footer, and because the form of footer
information is friable, depending on the list admin, it's impossible to
write a one-size-fits-all script to pull subscriber addresses from
Feedback Reports and deal with complaining subscribers.  Putting this
information in a header which is added depending only on whether
personalization/verp is enabled or not is independent of what the list
admin decides he/she wants subscribers to see in the footer - which
should be there for the benefit of subscribers, not list admins.  

Second, putting the subscriber's email address as cleartext in _any_
part of a post makes it subject to AOL's redaction process.  Whether or
not they are currently redacting this in footer information doesn't
mitigate the fact that they reserve the right to do so, according to
their TOS.  Changes to what is and isn't redacted over the past couple
of years indicates that they periodically change or refine this process.
It seems, however, according to their online documents, that if the
recipient address is encrypted or hashed, then it meets their spec and
won't raise objections, or redactions.  

>  I've never figured out a similar fix for digests,
> however, and that seems to be where most of the reports come from. So maybe
> there's room for a new approach there.

If the information in in the header, it's there regardless of whether a
subscriber chooses to receive digests or individual posts.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Jun 21 08:50:14 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 15:50:14 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <1340141010.32711.56.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH=dxU76P_f_3au0fbHTZ75wAPUD45XVUFDgtebLMuYs22ziXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FE0D773.1090905@writestarr.com>
	<1340141010.32711.56.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87ipel9n15.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > On the lists which I administer myself I try to make the unsubscribe
 > process very easy and transparent.  Every user who tries,
 > unsuccessfully, to unsubscribe is sent the following clear and
 > unambiguous message with easy-to-follow instructions:

But no goats?!  Isn't that a bit risky?

Cf. https://bitbucket.org/xemacs/xemacs/src/b4715fcbe001/etc/InstallGuide



From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Thu Jun 21 16:00:02 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 09:00:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and
 full personalization enabled
In-Reply-To: <87ipel9n15.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAL3ZyvCs2Utj6EZk2KFv1pAphKqiNxEkxNe04M5Va3iN+dUinA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1339909126.11425.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<84975FF6-A4C0-49E9-B8FD-A2E5B7DE4461@shub-internet.org>
	<1339943249.11425.46.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87bokhavyh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1340036537.26588.89.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<4FDF5F84.7090901@libertytrek.org>
	<1340045075.26588.124.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<CAH=dxU5ggi4K+nfMFESxqTdAvWc69205fB_ViOrPBL2ruoM7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<87395rbtrf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CAH=dxU76P_f_3au0fbHTZ75wAPUD45XVUFDgtebLMuYs22ziXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FE0D773.1090905@writestarr.com>
	<1340141010.32711.56.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<87ipel9n15.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1340287202.16746.6.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Thu, 2012-06-21 at 15:50 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Lindsay Haisley writes:
> 
>  > On the lists which I administer myself I try to make the unsubscribe
>  > process very easy and transparent.  Every user who tries,
>  > unsuccessfully, to unsubscribe is sent the following clear and
>  > unambiguous message with easy-to-follow instructions:
> 
> But no goats?!  Isn't that a bit risky?

No cows, either, or ducks.  This is SCIENCE, Stephen, not agronomics.

> Cf. https://bitbucket.org/xemacs/xemacs/src/b4715fcbe001/etc/InstallGuide

> Then spit into the computer's ventilation slots.  This will complete different
> circuits inside the computer, causing its motherboard and cards to function in
> ways that the engineers never intended, thereby making your system compatible
> with our libraries.
> 

I like this part.  What engineers don't understand is that the vital
force inside all electronic devices is smoke.  All the little
jiggery-pokery whatsamadiddle parts work fine until they break open and
the smoke escapes.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The difference between a duck is because
FMP Computer Services |    one leg is both the same"
512-259-1190          |     - Anonymous
http://www.fmp.com    |


From barry at list.org  Thu Jun 21 16:27:34 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 10:27:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trying to install mm 3.0.0b1
In-Reply-To: <1340239544.20333.3.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <1340239544.20333.3.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <20120621102734.5f059b24@limelight.wooz.org>

On Jun 20, 2012, at 07:45 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

>I sent this to the dev list and didn't get any answers.  It's probably
>more appropriate on this list anyway.

Sorry, that message came in too late in my otherwise busy day to respond on
the developers list.  I don't mind mm3 discussions on the users list, but
please be aware that I pay *much* more attention to the developers list these
days (sadly, while I still perfect my clone army), so that's probably the best
place to discuss it for now.

Cheers,
-Barry

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jun 21 18:39:52 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 09:39:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trying to install mm 3.0.0b1
In-Reply-To: <20120621102734.5f059b24@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <1340239544.20333.3.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
	<20120621102734.5f059b24@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <E174B9D2-7C2D-4820-852C-C8DC4507AEB7@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 21, 2012, at 7:27 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

>> I sent this to the dev list and didn't get any answers.  It's probably
>> more appropriate on this list anyway.
> 
> Sorry, that message came in too late in my otherwise busy day to respond on
> the developers list.  I don't mind mm3 discussions on the users list, but
> please be aware that I pay *much* more attention to the developers list these
> days (sadly, while I still perfect my clone army), so that's probably the best
> place to discuss it for now.

Yeah, Barry is kept pretty busy by his other non-real job, being the Python FLUFL.

Not to mention his other real job, which is still something I have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever, and which made it rather difficult last night to explain my previous experience with Atlassian products to Sarah Goff-Dupont.


You will definitely find more Barry-clones-in-progress on the developers list, especially as it relates to mm3.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From Jan at Bytesmiths.com  Fri Jun 22 02:58:49 2012
From: Jan at Bytesmiths.com (Jan Steinman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 17:58:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual Domains stopped working
In-Reply-To: <mailman.60.1340272803.14154.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.60.1340272803.14154.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <CD146831-632D-490E-8388-8738973A063E@Bytesmiths.com>

Environment: MacOS X 10.6.8 server on Mac Mini, Mailman v2.1.14, as supplied with MacOS X. I have a main MX mail server (mail.bytesmiths.com) and a number of other domain names, all sharing the same static IP. I run my own DNS, with all domains pointing MX records to mail.bytesmiths.com. Each of these domains have one or more mailman lists that were working properly a few days ago.

I added a new list to one of the domains (ecoreality.org) using the Mailman web interface. Then all my lists stopped working, with error messages like:
	<List_that_belongs_to_another_domain at bytesmiths.com>: user unknown

(I thought just the new one wasn't working, until someone forwarded me the reject notice they got when they tried to post to a list.)

/etc/postfix/main.cf refers to two mailman files:
	virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/virtual,hash:/var/mailman/data/virtual-mailman,hash:/etc/postfix/virtual_users
	alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases,hash:/var/mailman/data/aliases

I went into /var/mailman/data and noticed that "aliases" was newer than "aliases.db". So in what was perhaps a foolish shot in the dark, I did "postmap aliases" and "postmap virtual-mailman" to refresh the .db files, but to no avail.

I can still get in the admin pages for the lists I administer, and I'm still getting subscription notifications via web sign-up, but sending out through at least several of the lists I've tried all fail.

Any clues what I can do to fix this? I'm fairly competent and happy to be pointed in the right direction.

Thanks!

----------------
You can't do anything about the length of your life, but you can do something about its width and depth. -- H. L. Mencken
:::: Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ::::





From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun 22 15:47:26 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 06:47:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual Domains stopped working
In-Reply-To: <CD146831-632D-490E-8388-8738973A063E@Bytesmiths.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201206220647260736ec78befa@Notebook-09>

Jan Steinman wrote:
>
>/etc/postfix/main.cf refers to two mailman files:
>	virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/virtual,hash:/var/mailman/data/virtual-mailman,hash:/etc/postfix/virtual_users
>	alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases,hash:/var/mailman/data/aliases
>
>I went into /var/mailman/data and noticed that "aliases" was newer than "aliases.db". So in what was perhaps a foolish shot in the dark, I did "postmap aliases" and "postmap virtual-mailman" to refresh the .db files, but to no avail.


You should have done "postalias aliases", not postmap.


>I can still get in the admin pages for the lists I administer, and I'm still getting subscription notifications via web sign-up, but sending out through at least several of the lists I've tried all fail.
>
>Any clues what I can do to fix this? I'm fairly competent and happy to be pointed in the right direction.


What are the postfix log messages related to a rejected post to a list?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Jan at Bytesmiths.com  Fri Jun 22 23:51:08 2012
From: Jan at Bytesmiths.com (Jan Steinman)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:51:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual Domains stopped working
In-Reply-To: <PC195201206220647260736ec78befa@Notebook-09>
References: <PC195201206220647260736ec78befa@Notebook-09>
Message-ID: <0DC4B7CB-F1EF-4169-87FC-170999DD4432@Bytesmiths.com>


On 22 Jun 12, at 06:47, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Jan Steinman wrote:
>> 
>> /etc/postfix/main.cf refers to two mailman files:
>> 	virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/virtual,hash:/var/mailman/data/virtual-mailman,hash:/etc/postfix/virtual_users
>> 	alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases,hash:/var/mailman/data/aliases
>> 
>> I went into /var/mailman/data and noticed that "aliases" was newer than "aliases.db". So in what was perhaps a foolish shot in the dark, I did "postmap aliases" and "postmap virtual-mailman" to refresh the .db files, but to no avail.
> 
> 
> You should have done "postalias aliases", not postmap.

Thanks, Mark -- that fixed it!

----------------
The first priority for society as a whole is to drastically reduce consumption of fossil fuel energy and products derived from fossil fuels. The key action is to curtail. That means buying less, using less, wanting less and wasting less. To curtail means to cut back or to downsize. Curtail reflects the seriousness of the current situation more than the politically acceptable word "conserve." -- Pat Murphy
:::: Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ::::





From BPerez at novell.com  Sat Jun 23 21:33:53 2012
From: BPerez at novell.com (Bob Perez)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 13:33:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman
 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
Message-ID: <4FE5C5C102000056000D8805@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>

To All,
 
When I and a customer of mine attempt to create a List in Mailman under SLES10 in the Mailman Web admin UI, we get the below error.  I have look at Google and mailman-users list archives and cannot find a solution yet.
 
NOTE:  If I go to /usr/lib/mailman/bin/ and execute the command ./newlist <newListNameToCreate> IT WORKS FINE , but not under the web console.....
 
I have Sendmail working with Mailman.  Postfix is not an option.
 
NOTE: the below info, under the Error is the Mailman error log : /var/lib/mailmain/logs/error log during the attempt to create any list from the Mailman Webpage
 
I see the error in the log with the list name I try to create ("list1", etc) 
  admin(10317): OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/list1.mbox'
 
So looks like a permission problem. I ran ./check_perms and then check_db - Did not help.

I think if I do a chmod 755 -R /usr/lib/mailman/ , I may break something in mailman.  Did not do this.
I see that the user "mailman" in the "mailman group is the owner of the mailman files and directories, but after running the ./check_perms now "root" is the owner of the "mailman" group, however he is not a part of the group, so I made him a member - Same problem, even after restaring mailman with ./mailmanctl restart 
I noticed that /var/lib/mailman/archives/private was owned by the "mailman" owner, so I did a chown -R for the owner "root" that is a member of the "mailman" group, still same error.
Thanks for your assistance,Bob Perez (bperez at novell.com)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ERROR <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Bug in Mailman version 2.1.7
We're sorry, we hit a bug!
Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs. 
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< End Error >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailman Error log called "error" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Jun 22 12:54:38 2012 admin(10317): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
admin(10317): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.7 -----] 
admin(10317): [----- Traceback ------] 
admin(10317): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(10317):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 101, in run_main
admin(10317):	 main()
admin(10317):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 56, in main
admin(10317):	 process_request(doc, cgidata)
admin(10317):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 190, in process_request
admin(10317):	 mlist.Create(listname, owner, pw, langs, emailhost)
admin(10317):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 491, in Create
admin(10317):	 self.InitVars(name, admin, crypted_password)
admin(10317):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 402, in InitVars
admin(10317):	 baseclass.InitVars(self)
admin(10317):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 96, in InitVars
admin(10317):	 os.mkdir(self.archive_dir()+'.mbox', 02775)
admin(10317): OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/list1.mbox'
admin(10317): [----- Python Information -----] 
admin(10317): sys.version	 =   2.4.2 (#1, May  6 2011, 13:26:21) 
[GCC 4.1.2 20070115 (SUSE Linux)] 
admin(10317): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python 
admin(10317): sys.prefix	  =   /usr 
admin(10317): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr 
admin(10317): sys.path	    =   /usr 
admin(10317): sys.platform    =   linux2 
admin(10317): [----- Environment Variables -----] 
admin(10317):  HTTP_COOKIE: mailman+admin=280200000069f4bce44f732800000062643461386231656464376339616138636339626463396363323732386139393963333030316633; ZNPCQ003-38343200=cec434a7 
admin(10317):  SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.2.3 (Linux/SUSE) 
admin(10317):  SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/create 
admin(10317):  SERVER_SIGNATURE: <address>Apache/2.2.3 (Linux/SUSE) Server at bperez12.lab.novell.com Port 80</address>
admin(10317): 
admin(10317):  REQUEST_METHOD: POST 
admin(10317):  SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 
admin(10317):  QUERY_STRING:  
admin(10317):  CONTENT_LENGTH: 150 
admin(10317):  HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/13.0.1 
admin(10317):  HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive 
admin(10317):  HTTP_REFERER: http://bperez12.lab.novell.com/mailman/create 
admin(10317):  SERVER_NAME: bperez12.lab.novell.com 
admin(10317):  REMOTE_ADDR: 151.155.215.15 
admin(10317):  SERVER_PORT: 80 
admin(10317):  SERVER_ADDR: 151.155.215.12 
admin(10317):  DOCUMENT_ROOT: /srv/www/htdocs 
admin(10317):  PYTHONPATH: /usr/lib/mailman 
admin(10317):  SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create 
admin(10317):  SERVER_ADMIN: [no address given] 
admin(10317):  HTTP_HOST: bperez12.lab.novell.com 
admin(10317):  REQUEST_URI: /mailman/create 
admin(10317):  HTTP_ACCEPT: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8 
admin(10317):  GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 
admin(10317):  REMOTE_PORT: 51614 
admin(10317):  HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us,en;q=0.5 
admin(10317):  CONTENT_TYPE: application/x-www-form-urlencoded 
admin(10317):  HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip, deflate 
Jun 22 13:06:29 2012 mailmanctl(10820): Primary start-up and shutdown script for Mailman's qrunner daemon.
 
This script starts, stops, and restarts the main Mailman queue runners, making
sure that the various long-running qrunners are still alive and kicking.  It
does this by forking and exec'ing the qrunners and waiting on their pids.
When it detects a subprocess has exited, it may restart it.
 
The qrunners respond to SIGINT, SIGTERM, and SIGHUP.  SIGINT and SIGTERM both
cause the qrunners to exit cleanly, but the master will only restart qrunners
that have exited due to a SIGINT.  SIGHUP causes the master and the qrunners
to close their log files, and reopen then upon the next printed message.
 
The master also responds to SIGINT, SIGTERM, and SIGHUP, which it simply
passes on to the qrunners (note that the master will close and reopen its own
log files on receipt of a SIGHUP).  The master also leaves its own process id
in the file data/master-qrunner.pid but you normally don't need to use this
pid directly.  The `start', `stop', `restart', and `reopen' commands handle
everything for you.
 
Usage: ./mailmanctl [options] [ start | stop | restart | reopen ]
 
Options:
 
    -n/--no-restart
	    Don't restart the qrunners when they exit because of an error or a
	    SIGINT.  They are never restarted if they exit in response to a
	    SIGTERM.  Use this only for debugging.  Only useful if the `start'
	    command is given.
 
    -u/--run-as-user
	    Normally, this script will refuse to run if the user id and group id
	    are not set to the `mailman' user and group (as defined when you
	    configured Mailman).  If run as root, this script will change to this
	    user and group before the check is made.
 
	    This can be inconvenient for testing and debugging purposes, so the -u
	    flag means that the step that sets and checks the uid/gid is skipped,
	    and the program is run as the current user and group.  This flag is
	    not recommended for normal production environments.
 
	    Note though, that if you run with -u and are not in the mailman group,
	    you may have permission problems, such as begin unable to delete a
	    list's archives through the web.  Tough luck!
 
    -s/--stale-lock-cleanup
	    If mailmanctl finds an existing master lock, it will normally exit
	    with an error message.  With this option, mailmanctl will perform an
	    extra level of checking.  If a process matching the host/pid described
	    in the lock file is running, mailmanctl will still exit, but if no
	    matching process is found, mailmanctl will remove the apparently stale
	    lock and make another attempt to claim the master lock.
 
    -q/--quiet
	    Don't print status messages.  Error messages are still printed to
	    standard error.
 
    -h/--help
	    Print this message and exit.
 
Commands:
 
    start   - Start the master daemon and all qrunners.  Prints a message and
			  exits if the master daemon is already running.
 
    stop    - Stops the master daemon and all qrunners.  After stopping, no
			  more messages will be processed.
 
    restart - Restarts the qrunners, but not the master process.  Use this
			  whenever you upgrade or update Mailman so that the qrunners will
			  use the newly installed code.
 
    reopen  - This will close all log files, causing them to be re-opened the
			  next time a message is written to them
Jun 22 13:06:29 2012 mailmanctl(10820): 
Jun 22 13:06:29 2012 mailmanctl(10820): No command given. 
Jun 22 13:29:56 2012 (10942) admin.py access for non-existent list: create
Jun 22 13:30:37 2012 admin(10975): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
admin(10975): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.7 -----] 
admin(10975): [----- Traceback ------] 
admin(10975): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(10975):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 101, in run_main
admin(10975):	 main()
admin(10975):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 56, in main
admin(10975):	 process_request(doc, cgidata)
admin(10975):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 190, in process_request
admin(10975):	 mlist.Create(listname, owner, pw, langs, emailhost)
admin(10975):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 491, in Create
admin(10975):	 self.InitVars(name, admin, crypted_password)
admin(10975):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 402, in InitVars
admin(10975):	 baseclass.InitVars(self)
admin(10975):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 96, in InitVars
admin(10975):	 os.mkdir(self.archive_dir()+'.mbox', 02775)
admin(10975): OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/list2.mbox'
admin(10975): [----- Python Information -----] 
admin(10975): sys.version	 =   2.4.2 (#1, May  6 2011, 13:26:21) 
[GCC 4.1.2 20070115 (SUSE Linux)] 
admin(10975): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python 
admin(10975): sys.prefix	  =   /usr 
admin(10975): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr 
admin(10975): sys.path	    =   /usr 
admin(10975): sys.platform    =   linux2 
admin(10975): [----- Environment Variables -----] 
admin(10975):  HTTP_COOKIE: ZNPCQ003-38343200=cec434a7 
admin(10975):  SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.2.3 (Linux/SUSE) 
admin(10975):  SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/create 
admin(10975):  SERVER_SIGNATURE: <address>Apache/2.2.3 (Linux/SUSE) Server at bperez12.lab.novell.com Port 80</address>
admin(10975): 
admin(10975):  REQUEST_METHOD: POST 
admin(10975):  SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 
admin(10975):  QUERY_STRING:  
admin(10975):  CONTENT_LENGTH: 150 
admin(10975):  HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/13.0.1 
admin(10975):  HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive 
admin(10975):  HTTP_REFERER: http://bperez12.lab.novell.com/mailman/create 
admin(10975):  SERVER_NAME: bperez12.lab.novell.com 
admin(10975):  REMOTE_ADDR: 151.155.215.15 
admin(10975):  SERVER_PORT: 80 
admin(10975):  SERVER_ADDR: 151.155.215.12 
admin(10975):  DOCUMENT_ROOT: /srv/www/htdocs 
admin(10975):  PYTHONPATH: /usr/lib/mailman 
admin(10975):  SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create 
admin(10975):  SERVER_ADMIN: [no address given] 
admin(10975):  HTTP_HOST: bperez12.lab.novell.com 
admin(10975):  REQUEST_URI: /mailman/create 
admin(10975):  HTTP_ACCEPT: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8 
admin(10975):  GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 
admin(10975):  REMOTE_PORT: 51812 
admin(10975):  HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us,en;q=0.5 
admin(10975):  CONTENT_TYPE: application/x-www-form-urlencoded 
admin(10975):  HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip, deflate 
Jun 22 13:33:52 2012 admin(11043): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
admin(11043): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.7 -----] 
admin(11043): [----- Traceback ------] 
admin(11043): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(11043):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 101, in run_main
admin(11043):	 main()
admin(11043):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 56, in main
admin(11043):	 process_request(doc, cgidata)
admin(11043):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 190, in process_request
admin(11043):	 mlist.Create(listname, owner, pw, langs, emailhost)
admin(11043):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 491, in Create
admin(11043):	 self.InitVars(name, admin, crypted_password)
admin(11043):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 402, in InitVars
admin(11043):	 baseclass.InitVars(self)
admin(11043):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 96, in InitVars
admin(11043):	 os.mkdir(self.archive_dir()+'.mbox', 02775)
admin(11043): OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/list2.mbox'
admin(11043): [----- Python Information -----] 
admin(11043): sys.version	 =   2.4.2 (#1, May  6 2011, 13:26:21) 
[GCC 4.1.2 20070115 (SUSE Linux)] 
admin(11043): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python 
admin(11043): sys.prefix	  =   /usr 
admin(11043): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr 
admin(11043): sys.path	    =   /usr 
admin(11043): sys.platform    =   linux2 
admin(11043): [----- Environment Variables -----] 
admin(11043):  HTTP_COOKIE: ZNPCQ003-38343200=cec434a7 
admin(11043):  SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.2.3 (Linux/SUSE) 
admin(11043):  SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/create 
admin(11043):  SERVER_SIGNATURE: <address>Apache/2.2.3 (Linux/SUSE) Server at bperez12.lab.novell.com Port 80</address>
admin(11043): 
admin(11043):  REQUEST_METHOD: POST 
admin(11043):  SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 
admin(11043):  QUERY_STRING:  
admin(11043):  CONTENT_LENGTH: 150 
admin(11043):  HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/13.0.1 
admin(11043):  HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive 
admin(11043):  HTTP_REFERER: http://bperez12.lab.novell.com/mailman/create 
admin(11043):  SERVER_NAME: bperez12.lab.novell.com 
admin(11043):  REMOTE_ADDR: 151.155.215.15 
admin(11043):  SERVER_PORT: 80 
admin(11043):  SERVER_ADDR: 151.155.215.12 
admin(11043):  DOCUMENT_ROOT: /srv/www/htdocs 
admin(11043):  PYTHONPATH: /usr/lib/mailman 
admin(11043):  SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create 
admin(11043):  SERVER_ADMIN: [no address given] 
admin(11043):  HTTP_HOST: bperez12.lab.novell.com 
admin(11043):  REQUEST_URI: /mailman/create 
admin(11043):  HTTP_ACCEPT: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8 
admin(11043):  GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 
admin(11043):  REMOTE_PORT: 51819 
admin(11043):  HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us,en;q=0.5 
admin(11043):  CONTENT_TYPE: application/x-www-form-urlencoded 
admin(11043):  HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip, deflate 

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 24 15:36:59 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 06:36:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman
 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
In-Reply-To: <4FE5C5C102000056000D8805@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>
References: <4FE5C5C102000056000D8805@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>
Message-ID: <4FE717FB.402@msapiro.net>

On 6/23/2012 12:33 PM, Bob Perez wrote:
>  
> I see the error in the log with the list name I try to create ("list1", etc) 
>   admin(10317): OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/list1.mbox'
>  
> So looks like a permission problem. I ran ./check_perms and then check_db - Did not help.


What does "ls -ld /var/lib/mailman/archives/private" show?

What does "ls -l /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create" (assuming that's the
correct path to the create wrapper) show?


> I think if I do a chmod 755 -R /usr/lib/mailman/ , I may break something in mailman.  Did not do this.


Good.


> I see that the user "mailman" in the "mailman group is the owner of the mailman files and directories, but after running the ./check_perms now "root" is the owner of the "mailman" group, however he is not a part of the group, so I made him a member - Same problem, even after restaring mailman with ./mailmanctl restart 


In general, the 'owner' of mailman's files doesn't matter. Everything is
controlled by group permissions. All the qrunners run as group
"mailman". The web CGI wrappers are supposed to be SETGID and group
"mailman" so they run with effective group "mailman".

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de  Mon Jun 25 09:24:37 2012
From: mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de (Mailman Admin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:24:37 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman
 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
In-Reply-To: <4FE717FB.402@msapiro.net>
References: <4FE5C5C102000056000D8805@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>
	<4FE717FB.402@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <4FE81235.10905@uni-konstanz.de>

Hello Bob Perez, Hello Mark Sapiro


On 2012-06-24 15:36, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 6/23/2012 12:33 PM, Bob Perez wrote:
>>  
>> I see the error in the log with the list name I try to create ("list1", etc) 
>>   admin(10317): OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/list1.mbox'
>>  
>> So looks like a permission problem. I ran ./check_perms and then check_db - Did not help.
> 
> What does "ls -ld /var/lib/mailman/archives/private" show?
> 
> What does "ls -l /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create" (assuming that's the
> correct path to the create wrapper) show?
> 
>> I think if I do a chmod 755 -R /usr/lib/mailman/ , I may break something in mailman.  Did not do this.
> 
> Good.
> 
>> I see that the user "mailman" in the "mailman group is the owner of the mailman files and directories, but after running the ./check_perms now "root" is the owner of the "mailman" group, however he is not a part of the group, so I made him a member - Same problem, even after restaring mailman with ./mailmanctl restart 
> 
> In general, the 'owner' of mailman's files doesn't matter. Everything is
> controlled by group permissions. All the qrunners run as group
> "mailman". The web CGI wrappers are supposed to be SETGID and group
> "mailman" so they run with effective group "mailman".
> 

I fell into that too.

The problem is, that even after bin/fixurl is run, the archive directory
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ has owner:group = mailman:mailman .
You have to set it to wwwrun:mailman, in order for the apache server to
have write access to it too.
It needs write access for creating lists via webinterface.

This was changed by the last update of mailman via SLES 10 updates,
therefore is a distro bug.


Kind regards,
Christian Mack

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Jun 25 09:37:59 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 16:37:59 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman
 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
In-Reply-To: <4FE81235.10905@uni-konstanz.de>
References: <4FE5C5C102000056000D8805@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>
	<4FE717FB.402@msapiro.net> <4FE81235.10905@uni-konstanz.de>
Message-ID: <87wr2v96zs.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mailman Admin writes:

 > The problem is, that even after bin/fixurl is run, the archive directory
 > /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ has owner:group = mailman:mailman .
 > You have to set it to wwwrun:mailman, in order for the apache server to
 > have write access to it too.

The httpd doesn't need access to the archives; the mailman CGI does.
So the CGI wrapper should be setgid mailman.  Is it?

 > This was changed by the last update of mailman via SLES 10 updates,
 > therefore is a distro bug.

+1 to that, though.


From mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de  Mon Jun 25 10:31:16 2012
From: mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de (Mailman Admin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:31:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman
 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
In-Reply-To: <87wr2v96zs.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <4FE5C5C102000056000D8805@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>
	<4FE717FB.402@msapiro.net> <4FE81235.10905@uni-konstanz.de>
	<87wr2v96zs.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <4FE821D4.1030907@uni-konstanz.de>

Hello Stephen J. Turnbull


On 2012-06-25 09:37, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Mailman Admin writes:
> 
>  > The problem is, that even after bin/fixurl is run, the archive directory
>  > /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ has owner:group = mailman:mailman .
>  > You have to set it to wwwrun:mailman, in order for the apache server to
>  > have write access to it too.
> 
> The httpd doesn't need access to the archives; the mailman CGI does.
> So the CGI wrapper should be setgid mailman.  Is it?
> 

Yes it is.

ls -ld /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/
drwxr-sr-x 2 root mailman 4096 Jun 14 08:37 /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/

ls -l /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/
total 144
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10832 May 18 19:18 admin
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 admindb
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 confirm
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 create
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 editarch
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 edithtml
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 listinfo
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 options
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 private
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 rmlist
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 roster
-rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 10840 May 18 19:18 subscribe


>  > This was changed by the last update of mailman via SLES 10 updates,
>  > therefore is a distro bug.
> 
> +1 to that, though.
> 


Kind regards,
Christian Mack

From turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp  Mon Jun 25 11:19:40 2012
From: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 18:19:40 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman
 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
In-Reply-To: <4FE821D4.1030907@uni-konstanz.de>
References: <4FE5C5C102000056000D8805@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>
	<4FE717FB.402@msapiro.net> <4FE81235.10905@uni-konstanz.de>
	<87wr2v96zs.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4FE821D4.1030907@uni-konstanz.de>
Message-ID: <87vcif92ab.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mailman Admin writes:

 > On 2012-06-25 09:37, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
 > > Mailman Admin writes:
 > > 
 > >  > The problem is, that even after bin/fixurl is run, the archive directory
 > >  > /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ has owner:group = mailman:mailman .
 > >  > You have to set it to wwwrun:mailman, in order for the apache server to
 > >  > have write access to it too.
 > > 
 > > The httpd doesn't need access to the archives; the mailman CGI does.
 > > So the CGI wrapper should be setgid mailman.  Is it?
 > > 
 > 
 > Yes it is.

Is /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ group-writable?  If not, I'm
stumped; it should be possible for the CGIs to write to it then.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Jun 25 11:39:15 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 18:39:15 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman
 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
In-Reply-To: <87vcif92ab.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <4FE5C5C102000056000D8805@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>
	<4FE717FB.402@msapiro.net> <4FE81235.10905@uni-konstanz.de>
	<87wr2v96zs.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4FE821D4.1030907@uni-konstanz.de>
	<87vcif92ab.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <87txxz91do.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Stephen J. Turnbull writes:

 >  > > The httpd doesn't need access to the archives; the mailman CGI does.
 >  > > So the CGI wrapper should be setgid mailman.  Is it?
 >  > > 
 >  > 
 >  > Yes it is.
 > 
 > Is /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ group-writable?  If not, I'm
 > stumped; it should be possible for the CGIs to write to it then.

That should say "if *it is*, then I'm stumped.

If not, we need to figure out why not, IME check_perms -f fixes that.


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 25 16:24:57 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 07:24:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in
	Mailman2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
In-Reply-To: <4FE81235.10905@uni-konstanz.de>
Message-ID: <PC195201206250724570578b0d5ea7b@Notebook-09>

Mailman Admin wrote:
>
>The problem is, that even after bin/fixurl is run, the archive directory
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ has owner:group = mailman:mailman .
>You have to set it to wwwrun:mailman, in order for the apache server to
>have write access to it too.
>It needs write access for creating lists via webinterface.


I think Stephen has covered this well, but in case there is any
remaining confusion, here's a summary.

In order for web access to public archives to work, the web server,
running as the web server user:group, must be able to search the
archives/private directory. For other reasons (next paragraph), this
directory must be group 'mailman' so in order for public archive
access to work, the archives/private directory must be o+x or owned by
the web server user.

This has nothing to do with the create or other CGIs working because
the CGI wrappers should all be group mailman and SETGID so the run
with effective group mailman and that group should have sufficient
access to do what the CGIs need to do.

In this case, if the create CGI wrapper is group mailman and SETGID and
the mailman group has rwx (actually rws for other reasons) access on
archives/private, and the create gets the permission denied error, the
SETGID must not be effective, perhaps because it's on a file system
that doesn't allow it, but in that case, all the CGIs should have
permission issues.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From BPerez at novell.com  Mon Jun 25 16:53:39 2012
From: BPerez at novell.com (Bob Perez)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:53:39 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman
 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
Message-ID: <4FE8271302000056000D88AC@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>

Mark,
 
What does "ls -ld /var/lib/mailman/archives/private" show?
  Answer: "drwxr-x--- 6  root mailman 160 June 22 13:50 /var/lib/mailman/archives/private" 

What does "ls -l /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create" (assuming that's the
correct path to the create wrapper) show?
  Answer:  I have no directory called "create" in the /var/lib/mailman/ directory structure
 
Thanks,
Bob Perez

>>> 


From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
To:Bob Perez <BPerez at novell.com>
CC:<mailman-users at python.org>
Date: 6/24/2012 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
On 6/23/2012 12:33 PM, Bob Perez wrote:
>  
> I see the error in the log with the list name I try to create ("list1", etc) 
>   admin(10317): OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/list1.mbox'
>  
> So looks like a permission problem. I ran ./check_perms and then check_db - Did not help.


What does "ls -ld /var/lib/mailman/archives/private" show?

What does "ls -l /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create" (assuming that's the
correct path to the create wrapper) show?


> I think if I do a chmod 755 -R /usr/lib/mailman/ , I may break something in mailman.  Did not do this.


Good.


> I see that the user "mailman" in the "mailman group is the owner of the mailman files and directories, but after running the ./check_perms now "root" is the owner of the "mailman" group, however he is not a part of the group, so I made him a member - Same problem, even after restaring mailman with ./mailmanctl restart 


In general, the 'owner' of mailman's files doesn't matter. Everything is
controlled by group permissions. All the qrunners run as group
"mailman". The web CGI wrappers are supposed to be SETGID and group
"mailman" so they run with effective group "mailman".

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>	    The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan





From BPerez at novell.com  Mon Jun 25 17:07:03 2012
From: BPerez at novell.com (Bob Perez)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:07:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman
 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
In-Reply-To: <4FE81235.10905@uni-konstanz.de>
References: <4FE5C5C102000056000D8805@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>
	<4FE717FB.402@msapiro.net> <4FE81235.10905@uni-konstanz.de>
Message-ID: <4FE82A3702000056000D88B2@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>

Christian,
 
Your suggestion fixed the problem !  Thank You.
 
You have to set it to wwwrun:mailman, in order for the apache server to
have write access to it too.
It needs write access for creating lists via webinterface.
 
This was changed by the last update of mailman via SLES 10 updates,
therefore is a distro bug.

Bob Perez

>>> 


From: Mailman Admin <mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de>
To:Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
CC:Bob Perez <BPerez at novell.com>, <mailman-users at python.org>
Date: 6/25/2012 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List in Mailman 2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
Hello Bob Perez, Hello Mark Sapiro


On 2012-06-24 15:36, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 6/23/2012 12:33 PM, Bob Perez wrote:
>>  
>> I see the error in the log with the list name I try to create ("list1", etc) 
>>   admin(10317): OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/list1.mbox'
>>  
>> So looks like a permission problem. I ran ./check_perms and then check_db - Did not help.
> 
> What does "ls -ld /var/lib/mailman/archives/private" show?
> 
> What does "ls -l /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create" (assuming that's the
> correct path to the create wrapper) show?
> 
>> I think if I do a chmod 755 -R /usr/lib/mailman/ , I may break something in mailman.  Did not do this.
> 
> Good.
> 
>> I see that the user "mailman" in the "mailman group is the owner of the mailman files and directories, but after running the ./check_perms now "root" is the owner of the "mailman" group, however he is not a part of the group, so I made him a member - Same problem, even after restaring mailman with ./mailmanctl restart 
> 
> In general, the 'owner' of mailman's files doesn't matter. Everything is
> controlled by group permissions. All the qrunners run as group
> "mailman". The web CGI wrappers are supposed to be SETGID and group
> "mailman" so they run with effective group "mailman".
> 

I fell into that too.

The problem is, that even after bin/fixurl is run, the archive directory
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ has owner:group = mailman:mailman .
You have to set it to wwwrun:mailman, in order for the apache server to
have write access to it too.
It needs write access for creating lists via webinterface.

This was changed by the last update of mailman via SLES 10 updates,
therefore is a distro bug.


Kind regards,
Christian Mack


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 25 17:07:54 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:07:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List inMailman
	2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
In-Reply-To: <4FE8271302000056000D88AC@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952012062508075404860a3fea1c@Notebook-09>

Bob Perez wrote

>What does "ls -ld /var/lib/mailman/archives/private" show?
>  Answer: "drwxr-x--- 6  root mailman 160 June 22 13:50 /var/lib/mailman/archives/private"


chmod 2771 /var/lib/mailman/archives/private

should fix the problem. The mailman group needs write access to this
directory and it should be SETGID so new subordinates are created whit
group mailman. If multiple users have access to the file system on
this server and you are concerned that they might be able to see
private list archives, then do

chmod 2770 /var/lib/mailman/archives/private
chown xxx:mailman /var/lib/mailman/archives/private

where xxx is the user that the web server runs as.


>What does "ls -l /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create" (assuming that's the
>correct path to the create wrapper) show?
>  Answer:  I have no directory called "create" in the /var/lib/mailman/directory structure


How about "/usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create"?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Mon Jun 25 16:37:07 2012
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 16:37:07 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Uncaught runner exception,
 No such file or directory" for files in "bounces" directory
Message-ID: <C9A8EE53F3E3904F1ABB5BB5@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>

Hi,

today we successfully upgraded our installation from 2.1.14 to 2.1.15. 
Thanks for that! I have to admit that Mailman generally works so flawlessly 
that I usually don't look at its logs. Because of the update, today I did. 
And I noticed a pattern that I don't understand. It's not new, but I only 
noticed it today. I've searched the list archives, but didn't find anything 
appropriate.

Every day, we get several of these entries in the error log:

2.1.14:

Jun 25 08:00:17 2012 (12651) Skipping and preserving unparseable message: 
1340604017.5663309+f03cd934fd9f24fb5ee97e641a2bf0611a43df85
Jun 25 08:00:17 2012 (12651) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 2] No such 
file or directory: 
'/var/spool/mailman/bounces/1340604017.5663309+f03cd934fd9f24fb5ee97e641a2bf0611a43df85.pck'
Jun 25 08:00:17 2012 (12651) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 100, in _oneloop
    msg, msgdata = self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 154, in dequeue
    fp = open(filename)
IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 
'/var/spool/mailman/bounces/1340604017.5663309+f03cd934fd9f24fb5ee97e641a2bf0611a43df85.pck'

Jun 25 08:00:17 2012 (12651) Skipping and preserving unparseable message: 
1340604017.5663309+f03cd934fd9f24fb5ee97e641a2bf0611a43df85

2.1.15:

Jun 25 14:57:40 2012 (17936) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 2] No such 
file or directory: 
'/var/spool/mailman/bounces/1340629059.7912431+ac4d5683bef1c9339cfd32283c3ae1a9b814cecb.pck'
Jun 25 14:57:40 2012 (17936) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
    msg, msgdata = self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 154, in dequeue
    fp = open(filename)
IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 
'/var/spool/mailman/bounces/1340629059.7912431+ac4d5683bef1c9339cfd32283c3ae1a9b814cecb.pck'

Jun 25 14:57:40 2012 (17936) Skipping and preserving unparseable message: 
1340629059.7912431+ac4d5683bef1c9339cfd32283c3ae1a9b814cecb

The messages are preserved in the "bad" directory, which is culled 
regularly using cull_bad_shunt. When I look at them with "dumpdb -p", I see 
bounces. I understand that the "usual" reason for that is an unparseable 
message, as the logging indicates, but in this case it's apparently a 
failed open command.

Is that a race condition, a purely cosmetic issue, or something that should 
be fixed?

Thanks, Sebastian
-- 
Sebastian Hagedorn - Listmaster - RZKR-R1 (Geb?ude 52), Zimmer 18
Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK)
Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - Tel. +49-221-478-5587

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 25 17:22:32 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:22:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Uncaught runner exception,
	No such file or directory" for files in "bounces" directory
In-Reply-To: <C9A8EE53F3E3904F1ABB5BB5@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
Message-ID: <PC195201206250822320717218376ed@Notebook-09>

Sebastian Hagedorn wrote:
>
>Every day, we get several of these entries in the error log:
>
>2.1.14:
>
>Jun 25 08:00:17 2012 (12651) Skipping and preserving unparseable message:
>1340604017.5663309+f03cd934fd9f24fb5ee97e641a2bf0611a43df85
>Jun 25 08:00:17 2012 (12651) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 2] No such
>file or directory:
>'/var/spool/mailman/bounces/1340604017.5663309+f03cd934fd9f24fb5ee97e641a2bf0611a43df85.pck'
>Jun 25 08:00:17 2012 (12651) Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 100, in _oneloop
>    msg, msgdata = self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 154, in dequeue
>    fp = open(filename)
>IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
>'/var/spool/mailman/bounces/1340604017.5663309+f03cd934fd9f24fb5ee97e641a2bf0611a43df85.pck'
>
>Jun 25 08:00:17 2012 (12651) Skipping and preserving unparseable message:
>1340604017.5663309+f03cd934fd9f24fb5ee97e641a2bf0611a43df85


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/_4A9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Mon Jun 25 17:28:12 2012
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 17:28:12 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Uncaught runner exception,
 No such file or directory" for files in "bounces" directory
In-Reply-To: <PC195201206250822320717218376ed@Notebook-09>
References: <PC195201206250822320717218376ed@Notebook-09>
Message-ID: <00227B0AFBB5F8E31454D3EE@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>

--On 25. Juni 2012 08:22:32 -0700 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

>
> See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/_4A9>.

Oops ... sorry. There was in fact a very old BounceRunner that had somehow 
survived a restart of Mailman.

Thanks, Sebastian
-- 
     .:.Sebastian Hagedorn - RZKR-R1 (Geb?ude 52), Zimmer 18.:.
                 .:.Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK).:.
.:.Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - ? +49-221-478-5587.:.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun 26 02:33:05 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 09:33:05 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error on attempt to create a List
	inMailman	2.1.7-15.12.1 from Mailman Web admin UI
In-Reply-To: <PC1952012062508075404860a3fea1c@Notebook-09>
References: <4FE8271302000056000D88AC@novprvoes0310.provo.novell.com>
	<PC1952012062508075404860a3fea1c@Notebook-09>
Message-ID: <87sjdi9ake.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > >What does "ls -l /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create" (assuming that's the
 > >correct path to the create wrapper) show?
 > >  Answer:  I have no directory called "create" in the /var/lib/mailman/directory structure

As Mark points out, it's /usr/..., not /var/....  Many installations
link the /usr/lib/mailman directories into the /var/lib/mailman tree
for convenience, but not all do.

 > How about "/usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create"?

I suspect on many distros it's more likely to be

    /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/create

(note inversion of cgi-bin and mailman in the path).  I would guess
that the rationale is security eggs in one basket.  For the webserver
admin There's One Obvious Place To Look For It, which is important if
they're not the same person as the mailman admin.

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Tue Jun 26 11:03:20 2012
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 09:03:20 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Refreshing list of addresses
Message-ID: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E9854F@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>

Hi,

I want to refresh a list of email addresses in a member announcement list, I have the full names and email addresses in a text file.

I am going to set bounce options such that I can remove members straight away that are bouncing.

I have the following questions:

If I upload this text file as is, if the member is already subscribed, will it populate the name field?

If I remove all the members from the list, what is the easiest way of doing this without notifying everyone of this?

Thanks.
Andrew.

From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Tue Jun 26 12:06:50 2012
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 12:06:50 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Encoding of the new German HTML templates
Message-ID: <2510F8F5F4B0A07A10B6D60A@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>

Hi,

I just noticed that the new German HTML templates added in 2.1.15 use raw 
UTF-8 encoding instead of HTML entities like the older templates. I'm 
referring to these files in .../mailman/templates/de:

-rw-r--r-- 1 root mailman  96 26. Jun 10:16 archidxentry.html
-rw-r--r-- 1 root mailman 531 26. Jun 10:16 archidxfoot.html
-rw-r--r-- 1 root mailman 741 26. Jun 10:16 archidxhead.html
-rw-r--r-- 1 root mailman  18 26. Jun 10:16 archlistend.html
-rw-r--r-- 1 root mailman 129 26. Jun 10:16 archliststart.html
-rw-r--r-- 1 root mailman 389 26. Jun 10:16 archtocentry.html
-rw-r--r-- 1 root mailman 620 26. Jun 10:16 archtoc.html
-rw-r--r-- 1 root mailman 500 26. Jun 10:16 archtocnombox.html
-rw-r--r-- 1 root mailman 471 26. Jun 10:16 emptyarchive.html

That causes breakage, because the archive pages themselves are encoded in 
ISO-8859-1. I'm all for moving to UTF-8 entirely, but as far as I can tell 
that hasn't happened. I've been wrong before, but I would assume that's a 
bug?

Cheers, Sebastian
-- 
     .:.Sebastian Hagedorn - RZKR-R1 (Geb?ude 52), Zimmer 18.:.
                 .:.Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK).:.
.:.Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - ? +49-221-478-5587.:.

From s.hamling at internode.on.net  Tue Jun 26 13:36:28 2012
From: s.hamling at internode.on.net (Stewart Hamling)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:36:28 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Default "From" field
Message-ID: <002a01cd538f$edb9add0$c92d0970$@hamling@internode.on.net>

Hello List,

I have created a mailing list called ABRC Board; I can successfully send and
receive messages via this list.

Is it possible to have the "From" field reflect the name of the sender only?

Currently, the "From" field reads as follows:

From: "abrcboard-bounces at abrc.com.au [mailto:abrcboard-bounces at abrc.com.au]
On Behalf Of

Hamling, Stewart S"

 

Also, is it possible when an email is received, that list members can see
the names of all other list members receiving the same email?

 

Thank you,

Stewart Hamling.


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 26 16:33:40 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 07:33:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Refreshing list of addresses
In-Reply-To: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E9854F@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
Message-ID: <PC1952012062607334004782123c606@Notebook-09>

Andrew Hodgson wrote:
>
>I have the following questions:
>
>If I upload this text file as is, if the member is already subscribed, will it populate the name field?


No.


>If I remove all the members from the list, what is the easiest way of doing this without notifying everyone of this?


bin/remove_members --all --nouserack --noadminack LISTNAME

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Tue Jun 26 17:54:54 2012
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 15:54:54 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Refreshing list of addresses
In-Reply-To: <PC1952012062607334004782123c606@Notebook-09>
References: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E9854F@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>,
	<PC1952012062607334004782123c606@Notebook-09>
Message-ID: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E988E0@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  I refreshed the list.  What is the best way of turning off bounce processing and receiving all bounces manually myself, or is that not possible?

Thanks.
Andrew.

From Nick.Donaldson at ad.umanitoba.ca  Tue Jun 26 18:56:30 2012
From: Nick.Donaldson at ad.umanitoba.ca (Nick Donaldson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:56:30 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Truncated messages to lists
Message-ID: <933E896A96716243B4694E3C17E74227052E2B1B@UMCE3EXMD01.ad.umanitoba.ca>

Good day everyone.

We have, on rare occasions, had problems with messages to some lists being truncated. Has anyone encountered this?

Nick Donaldson
Help & Solutions Centre Consultant
IST Help & Solutions Centre
Client Services
Information Services and Technology
010 Elizabeth Dafoe Library
University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, MB.  R3T 2N2
E-mail: Nick.Donaldson at ad.UManitoba.CA
Phone:   (204) 474-8649
Fax:     (204) 474-7598


From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Tue Jun 26 21:16:40 2012
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 15:16:40 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting field focus on admin login page
Message-ID: <4FEA0A98.2030607@libertytrek.org>

Hi all,

A minor little niggle that has bugged me for a very long time but never 
enough to bother you guys with it until now...

I know there must be a way to do this, but my js foo is basically 
non-existant...

What code can I add - and where - to set the cursor focus to the 
password field on any/all of the list's admin login page so I don't have 
to click into it before entering the password?

Thanks...

From Nick.Donaldson at ad.umanitoba.ca  Tue Jun 26 22:02:41 2012
From: Nick.Donaldson at ad.umanitoba.ca (Nick Donaldson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:02:41 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Truncated messages to lists
In-Reply-To: <933E896A96716243B4694E3C17E74227052E2B1B@UMCE3EXMD01.ad.umanitoba.ca>
References: <933E896A96716243B4694E3C17E74227052E2B1B@UMCE3EXMD01.ad.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <933E896A96716243B4694E3C17E74227052E2D37@UMCE3EXMD01.ad.umanitoba.ca>

Problem solved.

It was not even a mailman issue. One of our sys admins fixed some aliases for lists that called sendmail from the command line. The call to sendmail had the -oi flags added to better cope with lines that start with .<CRLF><CRLF>

Nick Donaldson
Help & Solutions Centre Consultant
IST Help & Solutions Centre
Client Services
Information Services and Technology
010 Elizabeth Dafoe Library
University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, MB.  R3T 2N2
E-mail: Nick.Donaldson at ad.UManitoba.CA
Phone:   (204) 474-8649
Fax:     (204) 474-7598


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailman-users-bounces+nick.donaldson=ad.umanitoba.ca at python.org
> [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+nick.donaldson=ad.umanitoba.ca at python.org] On Behalf Of Nick
> Donaldson
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 11:57 AM
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Truncated messages to lists
> 
> Good day everyone.
> 
> We have, on rare occasions, had problems with messages to some lists
> being truncated. Has anyone encountered this?
> 
> Nick Donaldson
> Help & Solutions Centre Consultant
> IST Help & Solutions Centre
> Client Services
> Information Services and Technology
> 010 Elizabeth Dafoe Library
> University of Manitoba
> Winnipeg, MB.  R3T 2N2
> E-mail: Nick.Donaldson at ad.UManitoba.CA
> Phone:   (204) 474-8649
> Fax:     (204) 474-7598
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/nick.donaldson%40ad.umanitoba.ca

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 26 23:18:38 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:18:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Default "From" field
In-Reply-To: <002a01cd538f$edb9add0$c92d0970$@hamling@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <PC19520120626141838017452a7d4d4@Notebook-09>

Stewart Hamling wrote:
>
>Is it possible to have the "From" field reflect the name of the sender only?
>
>Currently, the "From" field reads as follows:
>
>From: "abrcboard-bounces at abrc.com.au [mailto:abrcboard-bounces at abrc.com.au]
>On Behalf Of
>
>Hamling, Stewart S"


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/RoA9>


>Also, is it possible when an email is received, that list members can see
>the names of all other list members receiving the same email?


No.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 26 23:24:18 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:24:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting field focus on admin login page
In-Reply-To: <4FEA0A98.2030607@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <PC19520120626142418096252a7d7d4@Notebook-09>

Tanstaafl wrote:
>
>What code can I add - and where - to set the cursor focus to the 
>password field on any/all of the list's admin login page so I don't have 
>to click into it before entering the password?


Just install Mailman 2.1.15 (see
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266054>).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 27 01:15:39 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:15:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Encoding of the new German HTML templates
In-Reply-To: <2510F8F5F4B0A07A10B6D60A@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
References: <2510F8F5F4B0A07A10B6D60A@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
Message-ID: <4FEA429B.8070909@msapiro.net>

On 6/26/2012 3:06 AM, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just noticed that the new German HTML templates added in 2.1.15 use
> raw UTF-8 encoding instead of HTML entities like the older templates.
[...]
> That causes breakage, because the archive pages themselves are encoded
> in ISO-8859-1. I'm all for moving to UTF-8 entirely, but as far as I can
> tell that hasn't happened. I've been wrong before, but I would assume
> that's a bug?


My bad. These templates were submitted by a German speaking user and I
just installed them without checking and replacing the utf-8 with HTML
entities. I will fix this and probably release a 2.1.15-1 with the changes.

Note, I only see non ascii utf8 in 5 of the files, namely:

archidxfoot.html
archidxhead.html
archtoc.html
archtocnombox.html
emptyarchive.html

I have fixed those and will commit the changes.

Thanks for the report.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 27 01:33:18 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:33:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Truncated messages to lists
In-Reply-To: <933E896A96716243B4694E3C17E74227052E2B1B@UMCE3EXMD01.ad.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <PC19520120626163318039752a7d59f@Notebook-09>

Nick Donaldson wrote:
>
>We have, on rare occasions, had problems with messages to some lists being truncated. Has anyone encountered this?


I have not seen this. Can you give an example of an original message
sent to a list and the truncated message received from the list?

Could it be an issue with an MTA?

Is the message truncated in the list's archive?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 27 02:30:45 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:30:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Refreshing list of addresses
In-Reply-To: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E988E0@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
References: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E9854F@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>,
	<PC1952012062607334004782123c606@Notebook-09>
	<BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504E988E0@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
Message-ID: <4FEA5435.7070708@msapiro.net>

On 6/26/2012 8:54 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
> What is the best way of turning off bounce processing and receiving
> all bounces manually myself, or is that not possible?


There are only two ways to receive ALL bounce DSNs manually. Neither
is particularly convenient.

One way is to adjust a list or lists' aliases or whatever process in
the incoming MTA processes mail to LISTNAME-bounces at ... to deliver
that mail to a person's mailbox instead of piping it to Mailman bounce
processing.

The other way is best done with a custom handler that creates the key
'envsender' with value of the person's address in the message's
metadata. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9> for info on
custom handlers. In this case, the handler itself could be as simple as

def process(mlist, msg, msgdata):
    msgdata['envsender'] = 'the_bounce_guy at example.com'

Simply installing that two-line handler in the pipeline before
ToOutgoing would be effective for list posts to individual message
subscribers, but not for digests. Setting the envelope sender for
digests would require modifying existing code.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Wed Jun 27 12:47:38 2012
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 12:47:38 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Encoding of the new German HTML templates
In-Reply-To: <4FEA429B.8070909@msapiro.net>
References: <2510F8F5F4B0A07A10B6D60A@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
	<4FEA429B.8070909@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <F804313BC07A673012204138@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>

--On 26. Juni 2012 16:15:39 -0700 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> My bad. These templates were submitted by a German speaking user and I
> just installed them without checking and replacing the utf-8 with HTML
> entities. I will fix this and probably release a 2.1.15-1 with the
> changes.
>
> Note, I only see non ascii utf8 in 5 of the files, namely:
>
> archidxfoot.html
> archidxhead.html
> archtoc.html
> archtocnombox.html
> emptyarchive.html

You are right. I was lazy and just listed all the new ones.

> I have fixed those and will commit the changes.

Thank you!
-- 
     .:.Sebastian Hagedorn - RZKR-R1 (Geb?ude 52), Zimmer 18.:.
                 .:.Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK).:.
.:.Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - ? +49-221-478-5587.:.

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Wed Jun 27 17:33:55 2012
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:33:55 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting field focus on admin login page
In-Reply-To: <PC19520120626142418096252a7d7d4@Notebook-09>
References: <PC19520120626142418096252a7d7d4@Notebook-09>
Message-ID: <4FEB27E3.1090104@libertytrek.org>

On 2012-06-26 5:24 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> Tanstaafl wrote:
>>
>> What code can I add - and where - to set the cursor focus to the
>> password field on any/all of the list's admin login page so I don't have
>> to click into it before entering the password?
>
>
> Just install Mailman 2.1.15 (see
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266054>).

Ah, cool, thanks Mark - hopefully the gentoo ebuild will be updated soon...

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 27 17:48:29 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:48:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting field focus on admin login page
In-Reply-To: <4FEB27E3.1090104@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <PC195201206270848290287aaca6d3c@Notebook-09>

Tanstaafl wrote:
>
>Ah, cool, thanks Mark - hopefully the gentoo ebuild will be updated soon...


Or you can see the diffs at
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1344>
for the required code and the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/jYA9> for
info on making custom mods to templates.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From s.hamling at internode.on.net  Fri Jun 29 12:14:08 2012
From: s.hamling at internode.on.net (Stewart Hamling)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 20:14:08 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Default "From" field
In-Reply-To: <PC19520120626141838017452a7d4d4@Notebook-09>
References: <002a01cd538f$edb9add0$c92d0970$@hamling@internode.on.net>
	<PC19520120626141838017452a7d4d4@Notebook-09>
Message-ID: <000601cd55df$ec7c27c0$c5747740$@hamling@internode.on.net>

Thanks very much Mark, that answered my question.
Will mailman allow me to send attachments to a list?

Thanks again,
Stewart.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012 7:19 AM
To: s.hamling at internode.on.net; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Default "From" field

Stewart Hamling wrote:
>
>Is it possible to have the "From" field reflect the name of the sender
only?
>
>Currently, the "From" field reads as follows:
>
>From: "abrcboard-bounces at abrc.com.au [mailto:abrcboard-bounces at abrc.com.au]
>On Behalf Of
>
>Hamling, Stewart S"


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/RoA9>


>Also, is it possible when an email is received, that list members can see
>the names of all other list members receiving the same email?


No.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun 29 15:48:52 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:48:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Default "From" field
In-Reply-To: <000601cd55df$ec7c27c0$c5747740$@hamling@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <PC19520120629064852001836070446@Notebook-09>

Stewart Hamling wrote:

>Thanks very much Mark, that answered my question.
>Will mailman allow me to send attachments to a list?


What will or won't be accepted by a Mailman list depends entirely on
the list's Content filtering settings. See the list's web admin
Content filtering page.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From bcanty at apsa.org  Fri Jun 29 17:51:51 2012
From: bcanty at apsa.org (Brian Canty)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:51:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A simple unsubscribe
Message-ID: <6B3A7025196C1A49AABB0E6C80AD5AE2015B4BC3@apsaserv.APSA.local>

Hello - I was wondering if anyone has a way to provide subscribers a
simple and easy way to unsubscribe from a mailing list.  I do not
provide passwords, so I was wondering if there is a simple enter your
email address box that I can include on a link in my footers?

 

Thanks in advance.

Brian Canty

Manager, Computer Information Services

American Psychoanalytic Associaiton

(212) 752-0450 x17

 

www.apsa.org

 


From ddewey at cyberthugs.com  Fri Jun 29 19:29:15 2012
From: ddewey at cyberthugs.com (Dave Dewey)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 13:29:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A simple unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <6B3A7025196C1A49AABB0E6C80AD5AE2015B4BC3@apsaserv.APSA.local>
References: <6B3A7025196C1A49AABB0E6C80AD5AE2015B4BC3@apsaserv.APSA.local>
Message-ID: <20120629172915.GA30992@huntingcow.cyberthugs.com>


Quoting Brian Canty (bcanty at apsa.org):

> Hello - I was wondering if anyone has a way to provide subscribers a
> simple and easy way to unsubscribe from a mailing list.  I do not
> provide passwords, so I was wondering if there is a simple enter your
> email address box that I can include on a link in my footers?

Wouldn't that allow anyone to enter any email address in that box
and unsubscribe them?

From dave at fiteyes.com  Fri Jun 29 19:47:33 2012
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 13:47:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A simple unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <20120629172915.GA30992@huntingcow.cyberthugs.com>
References: <6B3A7025196C1A49AABB0E6C80AD5AE2015B4BC3@apsaserv.APSA.local>
	<20120629172915.GA30992@huntingcow.cyberthugs.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU5q_VetsTe0OSfu8zgLbZ=WODZh4U7taOTEVmr2+WFD3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Dave Dewey <ddewey at cyberthugs.com> wrote:

>
> Quoting Brian Canty (bcanty at apsa.org):
>
> > Hello - I was wondering if anyone has a way to provide subscribers a
> > simple and easy way to unsubscribe from a mailing list.  I do not
> > provide passwords, so I was wondering if there is a simple enter your
> > email address box that I can include on a link in my footers?
>
> Wouldn't that allow anyone to enter any email address in that box
> and unsubscribe them?
>

That's correct, and that's usually the problem. There is more than one way
to do this with Mailman, but on a mailing list, it means that any user
could unsubscribe any other user.

We usually see these one-click unsubscribe buttons on marketing newsletters
and similar correspondence, but they don't seem to be a good option for a
mailing list. (At least, I haven't figured out how to make it work in a way
that would fit with the needs of a mailing list.)

From terry at fiteyes.com  Fri Jun 29 19:57:16 2012
From: terry at fiteyes.com (Terry Earley)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:57:16 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Earthlink Feedback Loop
Message-ID: <CAL3ZyvDsjzxGxJaqhC3Xzr_EWTfwhjpg5LMcYehbzasoca8Vrw@mail.gmail.com>

We want to do all we can to protect our web reputation. We joined all the
feedback loop services we could find. in addition to AOL, hotmail/msn and
Yahoo, I found a list here and applied to others:
http://www.emaillusions.com/2011/02/white-listing-and-isp-feedback-loops.html

I applied to Earthlink as directed, and when they did not respond, I sent a
2nd request, and got this reply:

> Your request has been denied. It is EarthLink policy to only add ISPs and
> MSPs to our FBL service.
> Earthlink Network Abuse Team
>

That seems a little closed-minded. Why would they not want a mailman list
to be notified? Has anyone had any experience dealing with Earthlink on
this level?

Terry
FiEyes

From brad at fineby.me.uk  Fri Jun 29 19:39:06 2012
From: brad at fineby.me.uk (Brad Rogers)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 18:39:06 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A simple unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <6B3A7025196C1A49AABB0E6C80AD5AE2015B4BC3@apsaserv.APSA.local>
References: <6B3A7025196C1A49AABB0E6C80AD5AE2015B4BC3@apsaserv.APSA.local>
Message-ID: <20120629183906.0b398c1a@abydos.stargate.org.uk>

On Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:51:51 -0400
"Brian Canty" <bcanty at apsa.org> wrote:

Hello Brian,

>Hello - I was wondering if anyone has a way to provide subscribers a
>simple and easy way to unsubscribe from a mailing list.  I do not

What's wrong with the current challenge and response method?  Stops
people from maliciously (un)subscribing others.

> provide passwords, so I was wondering if there is a simple enter your
> email address box that I can include on a link in my footers?

This would be open to the abuse I mention above, unless a challenge was
sent out.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
What will you do when the gas taps turn?
The Gasman Cometh - Crass
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From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Fri Jun 29 21:00:50 2012
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 14:00:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Earthlink Feedback Loop
In-Reply-To: <CAL3ZyvDsjzxGxJaqhC3Xzr_EWTfwhjpg5LMcYehbzasoca8Vrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvDsjzxGxJaqhC3Xzr_EWTfwhjpg5LMcYehbzasoca8Vrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340996450.15574.16.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Fri, 2012-06-29 at 11:57 -0600, Terry Earley wrote:
> We want to do all we can to protect our web reputation. We joined all the
> feedback loop services we could find. in addition to AOL, hotmail/msn and
> Yahoo, I found a list here and applied to others:
> http://www.emaillusions.com/2011/02/white-listing-and-isp-feedback-loops.html
> 
> I applied to Earthlink as directed, and when they did not respond, I sent a
> 2nd request, and got this reply:

<rant>
This trend _really_ sucks!  The Big Guys are breaking the Internet mail
system by dividing it up into the "saved" and the "damned".  How much
longer will it be before we have to have state-issued licenses to
operate mail servers on the Internet, or else more likely, have to pay
exorbitant sums to these large corporations in order to be allowed to
send mail to their users?

I'm already finding that I have increasing difficulty of all kinds
delivering mail from the lists I host to various subscribers.  Email
either just plain doesn't make it, or it gets shunted off into a spam or
junk folder for no other reason than that the recipient's mail server
doesn't recognize the address.

This trend has already kicked in with regard to other services, such as
the registration of domain names.  Independent registrars now have to
pay tens of thousands of dollars annually to operate as registrars.  The
survivors are either affiliated with big organizations such as CORE, or
are the mega-bucks registrars such as GoDaddy.

It's no longer the kinder, gentler Internet I signed on to work with 15
years ago or so.  Trust, real creativity and cooperation - values which
made the Internet what it is today - are becoming increasingly hard to
find at the small business level at which I operate.
</rant>

Terry, I'll bet if you found the right person at Earthlink and greased
the right palms with several hundred $$ you'd get whitelisted and
subscribed to their feedback loop with no problem.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | SUPPORT NETWORK NEUTRALITY
FMP Computer Services | --------------------------
512-259-1190          | Boycott Yahoo, RoadRunner, AOL
http://www.fmp.com    | and Verison


From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Jun 29 21:16:23 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:16:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Earthlink Feedback Loop
In-Reply-To: <1340996450.15574.16.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAL3ZyvDsjzxGxJaqhC3Xzr_EWTfwhjpg5LMcYehbzasoca8Vrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1340996450.15574.16.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <8E68E06F-04B0-4BA6-9B7F-DA31E55C5AD3@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:00 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> Terry, I'll bet if you found the right person at Earthlink and greased
> the right palms with several hundred $$ you'd get whitelisted and
> subscribed to their feedback loop with no problem.

From what I know of the Earthlink admins, I don't think that money would necessarily be required.

Getting through to the right people is critical, though.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Fri Jun 29 22:29:30 2012
From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 23:29:30 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using with a database and *without* a webserver
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206292302290.2144@data.home>

Hi,

I've been contracted to do a Mailman setup for a company that wants to set 
up a newsletter-type list.  They'd like to use a database for the back-end 
and to hide as much of Mailman's internals as possible without creating 
too much work.

First, databases.  We'd prefer to use PostgreSQL but I've not managed to 
find any code for doing this.  We can use MySQL instead.  I found a guide 
at 
http://loeki.tv/log/archives/81-Setting-up-Mailman-to-store-members-in-a-MySQL-database.html 
which references files at 
http://trac.rezo.net/trac/rezo/browser/Mailman/MySQLMemberAdaptor

Is this the best approach/patch to use?  Do people doing this use 
something else?

As for the web stuff, are there things we need the web interface for or 
can we do everything via the command line?  I'm thinking we probably need 
the web UI for some things but don't recall exactly what.

Thanks,
Geoff.


From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Jun 29 22:48:19 2012
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 13:48:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using with a database and *without* a webserver
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206292302290.2144@data.home>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206292302290.2144@data.home>
Message-ID: <1EC36394-E911-42DD-8708-311ECE6B202C@shub-internet.org>

On Jun 29, 2012, at 1:29 PM, Geoff Shang wrote:

> First, databases.  We'd prefer to use PostgreSQL but I've not managed to find any code for doing this.  We can use MySQL instead.  I found a guide at http://loeki.tv/log/archives/81-Setting-up-Mailman-to-store-members-in-a-MySQL-database.html which references files at http://trac.rezo.net/trac/rezo/browser/Mailman/MySQLMemberAdaptor
> 
> Is this the best approach/patch to use?  Do people doing this use something else?

So far as I know, there's no official way to use an SQL database with Mailman 2, although there is the MemberAdaptor that you found which is believed to work with MySQL.  If you'd like to modify the code to work with PostgreSQL instead, that would be great!

Mailman 3 is intended to be the version that will officially integrate with other database technologies through standard Python interface, but it's still in early beta right now.

> As for the web stuff, are there things we need the web interface for or can we do everything via the command line?  I'm thinking we probably need the web UI for some things but don't recall exactly what.

Mailman was not designed to be used exclusively from the command line.  There are lots of admin functions that can't be done, or can't be easily done, without access to a web server.  Of course, that web server could always be locked away and accessible only to the admins, but then you kind of defeat the purpose of a lot of the Mailman self-provisioning functionality.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Fri Jun 29 23:15:06 2012
From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 00:15:06 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using with a database and *without* a webserver
In-Reply-To: <1EC36394-E911-42DD-8708-311ECE6B202C@shub-internet.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206292302290.2144@data.home>
	<1EC36394-E911-42DD-8708-311ECE6B202C@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206300001020.2144@data.home>

On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Brad Knowles wrote:

> So far as I know, there's no official way to use an SQL database with 
> Mailman 2, although there is the MemberAdaptor that you found which is 
> believed to work with MySQL.  If you'd like to modify the code to work 
> with PostgreSQL instead, that would be great!

I would love to!  However, this is a time-sensitive deployment (they want 
it up by Monday), so making this change when we could simply just run 
MySQL instead doesn't really make sense.

> Mailman 3 is intended to be the version that will officially integrate 
> with other database technologies through standard Python interface, but 
> it's still in early beta right now.

Yeah.  I'd love to run Mailman 3 up the stick and use that, but it's not 
quite ready and I'm certainly not ready enough to try to get it running 
reliably by Monday.

> Mailman was not designed to be used exclusively from the command line. 
> There are lots of admin functions that can't be done, or can't be easily 
> done, without access to a web server.  Of course, that web server could 
> always be locked away and accessible only to the admins, but then you 
> kind of defeat the purpose of a lot of the Mailman self-provisioning 
> functionality.

I thought as much.   Without going into details however, there are 
security considerations etc, and apparently addressing these is not 
straight-forward or timely.  So I may enable it and hide it away 
somewhere... I'll see what my employer wants.

Geoff.

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun 30 01:47:05 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 16:47:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A simple unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU5q_VetsTe0OSfu8zgLbZ=WODZh4U7taOTEVmr2+WFD3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195201206291647050305d5b7ad36@Notebook-09>

David wrote:
>
>We usually see these one-click unsubscribe buttons on marketing newsletters
>and similar correspondence, but they don't seem to be a good option for a
>mailing list. (At least, I haven't figured out how to make it work in a way
>that would fit with the needs of a mailing list.)


The bigest problem with one-click unsubscribe links is that people
don't remove them from the quoted text in their list replies, and even
if code is added to the list post processing (e.g., a custom handler)
to remove them, people still forward list posts off list with their
unsub link intact and then wonder why they got removed from the list
when a recipient of the forward maliciously, out of curiosity or
thinking it's their link, clicks it.

It's fairly simple to create a one-click unsub link in msg_footer for
any list with personalize set to Yes or Full Personalization, but I
won't post it here because of the above and because it contains the
user's list password in the clear.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From rbraver at ohww.norman.ok.us  Sat Jun 30 02:39:20 2012
From: rbraver at ohww.norman.ok.us (Robert Braver)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 19:39:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A simple unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <20120629183906.0b398c1a@abydos.stargate.org.uk>
References: <6B3A7025196C1A49AABB0E6C80AD5AE2015B4BC3@apsaserv.APSA.local>
	<20120629183906.0b398c1a@abydos.stargate.org.uk>
Message-ID: <586505861.20120629193920@ohww.norman.ok.us>

On Friday, June 29, 2012, 12:39:06 PM, Brad Rogers wrote:

BR> What's wrong with the current challenge and response method?  Stops
BR> people from maliciously (un)subscribing others.

If there's anything in the content of the list messages that could
be construed as an advertisement, the failure to have a one-click
(or one email) unsubscribe is a violation of federal law (CAN-SPAM
Act) and the FTC regulations promulgated thereunder.

This bugs me, too.

-- 
Best regards,
 Robert Braver
 rbraver at ohww.norman.ok.us


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun 30 03:35:16 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 18:35:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A simple unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <586505861.20120629193920@ohww.norman.ok.us>
References: <6B3A7025196C1A49AABB0E6C80AD5AE2015B4BC3@apsaserv.APSA.local>
	<20120629183906.0b398c1a@abydos.stargate.org.uk>
	<586505861.20120629193920@ohww.norman.ok.us>
Message-ID: <4FEE57D4.1020506@msapiro.net>

On 6/29/2012 5:39 PM, Robert Braver wrote:
> 
> If there's anything in the content of the list messages that could
> be construed as an advertisement, the failure to have a one-click
> (or one email) unsubscribe is a violation of federal law (CAN-SPAM
> Act) and the FTC regulations promulgated thereunder.


As long as you don't set include_rfc2369_headers to No, there will be a
List-Unsubscribe: header with both a link to the list options page from
which you can unsubscribe and a mailto: link to send an unsubscribe
email. I don't know if these satisfy the requirements of the MAY-SPAM
act, but I'm not worried.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From liv3d at multiplay.co.uk  Sat Jun 30 21:34:02 2012
From: liv3d at multiplay.co.uk (Dan Offord)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 20:34:02 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman / Postfix new list issue
Message-ID: <CA+wvyiuP1f+9=DBWwuXYRvKWjeaQ8cQfwysP85jAtp54_vNtKg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm having an issue with any new lists created in Mailman, it appears
to be forcing each mailing lists host_name to: multiplay.co.uk

So any welcome emails specifically states:

"To post to this list, send your message to:

 newlist at multiplay.co.uk"

Where the host/domain for Mailman is set to lists.multiplay.co.uk

My mm_cfg.py is at http://pastie.org/4178388
My main.cf and master.cf is at http://pastie.org/4178383

Is there something totally obvious I'm missing which would be causing
it to send the wrong address in the welcome email?

Thank you,

Dan Offord

Technical Systems Administrator

Multiplay (UK) Ltd, Unit 7 Whitefield, Lepe Road, Blackfield
Southampton, Hampshire, SO45 1XR

Registered in England & Wales No. 3370594

Phone: +44 (0) 845 868 1337 | Direct: +44 (0) 56 000 36985
Twitter: @liv3d | Skype: mpukliv3d
This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it.

In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmaster at multiplay.co.uk.