From lars at cbnrm.net  Fri Jun  7 23:11:35 2013
From: lars at cbnrm.net (Lars T. Soeftestad)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 17:11:35 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman for Windows
Message-ID: <004101ce63c3$98c14aa0$8a51f7a5@z7w1h7>

Hi Mailmen/women!

Have loked at Mailman, and thought it would be perfect for my use. Which is: a regular newsletter to people working on community-based natural resource management (CBNRM), mostly in developing countries, as an adjunct to the CBNRM Net portal website (www.cbnrm.net) that I operate. My ISP, Earthlink, has so strict anti-spamming guidelines (anything about 50 adressees is bounced back) that I can't use that). 

Then, to my frustration, I read that Mailman is not available for Windows (98 in my case). Really sad. Question: would you know of share/freeware that does more or less the same as Mailman, and that is available for Windows?

Kind regards, 
Lars T. Soeftestad

_________________________________________________________
Lars T. Soeftestad
3651 North Harrison St., Arlington, Virginia 22207-1843, United States
Phone: +1 703 534 4492, Cell phone: +47 908 23 006; Fax: +1 703 534 4466, Email: LSoeftestad at igc.org, URL: www.cbnrm.net

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From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  1 00:19:30 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 15:19:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <1370031989.33667.YahooMailClassic@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1370031989.33667.YahooMailClassic@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51A921F2.2070808@msapiro.net>

On 05/31/2013 01:26 PM, Janice Boothe wrote:
> Yes I do mean that.  I used confirm.html since that is the naming
> convention used to create custom pages for much of the other IO of
> Mailman.


Some of Mailman's GUI web pages are built from templates such as
listinfo.html, options.html and subscribe.html. Many others including
the entire web admin interface and much of the admindb interface are not.


> It seems rather odd and extremely limiting that Mailman functiuons as
> you describe in regards to confirm.  Most of the other pages are
> customizable (listinfo, etc), why in the world would the programmers
> make such a choice to not allow site owners to customize the confirm
> page?


This wasn't as much of an issue when Mailman 2 was designed.


> Is this something that can be fixed in future releases as it
> should not be very hard to do?


Well, I don't know about 'hard' but it won't happen in Mailman 2.1 for
several reasons having mostly to do with i18n considerations and the
fact that were it to be done, I'm the one who would do it with whatever
help I could scrounge from the community.

On the other hand, Mailman 3 is a different story. In MM 3 the core
mailing list functions communicate with the outside via a REST API.
Anyone is free to develop whatever web UI they want to communicate with
the core. The web UI that will ship with MM 3 is Postorius
<https://launchpad.net/postorius> and I think you'll find it much more
template driven than the MM 2 UI.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  1 03:42:35 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 18:42:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Discard/Ban all messages pending moderation
In-Reply-To: <51A7D762.1020308@msapiro.net>
References: <51A7D762.1020308@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51A9518B.8080006@msapiro.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> If there are so many that this is unwieldy, you could do this with a
> withlist script. Something along the lines of the following totally
> untested script:
> 
> from Mailman import mm_cfg
> def discard(mlist):
>     for id in mlist.GetHeldMessageIds():
>         sender = mlist.GetRecord(id)[1]
>         if sender not in mlist.discard_these_nonmembers:
>             mlist.discard_these_nonmembers.append(sender)
>         mlist.HandleRequest(id, mm_cfg.DISCARD)
> 
> 
> See 'bin/withlist --help' for what to do with this.


It occurred to me that there is a problem with the above, namely it
doesn't save the list so it will probably discard all the held messages
but not update discard_these_nonmembers.

The following is still untested, but should be better

from Mailman import mm_cfg
def discard(mlist):
    if not mlist.Locked():
        mlist.Lock()
    for id in mlist.GetHeldMessageIds():
        sender = mlist.GetRecord(id)[1]
        if sender not in mlist.discard_these_nonmembers:
            mlist.discard_these_nonmembers.append(sender)
        mlist.HandleRequest(id, mm_cfg.DISCARD)
    mlist.Save()
    mlist.Unlock()


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Jun  1 05:18:09 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 12:18:09 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <1370031989.33667.YahooMailClassic@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51A844E7.5020200@msapiro.net>
	<1370031989.33667.YahooMailClassic@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <87mwrabjta.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Janice Boothe writes:

 > It seems rather odd and extremely limiting that Mailman functiuons
 > as you describe in regards to confirm.

Yes, it's limiting, and the limitation was probably deliberate.
Because the confirmation page is viewable by just about anybody,
providing a customizable template would require non-trivial thought
about its security.

 > While I do like very much the functionality of Mailman, the default
 > interface leaves a whole lot to be desired and lead to a very
 > unprofessional look and feel when added to a site.

Feel free to contribute styling.  Functionality we do well.  But we
aren't designers ourselves, and we can't afford to hire good ones out
of the revenue we receive from Mailman ($0).

If you lack the time (or perhaps skills) to contribute directly, you
can definitely help by telling us more about your requirements.  This
probably won't help Mailman 2 much (for the reasons Mark gave), but
would be very useful for Mailman 3.

There are some students being funded by Google Summer of Code to do
work on Mailman 3 UI.  If you would like to discuss your requirements
with them (at any level of formality), let me know and I'll put you in
touch with them.[1]

Steve


Footnotes: 
[1]  I'm uncomfortable posting more detailed information because
Google is quite sticky about privacy, and because their projects are
not being directly supervised by Mailman.  We're just consulting on
the Mailman side of their things.  They'd be doing us a favor outside
of their Google internships.


From mailmanu-20100705 at billmail.scconsult.com  Sat Jun  1 19:40:50 2013
From: mailmanu-20100705 at billmail.scconsult.com (Bill Cole)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 13:40:50 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <5229490.6742.1369938613864.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
References: <5229490.6742.1369938613864.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
Message-ID: <502DE187-9B35-40EF-B995-A17288D13E4F@billmail.scconsult.com>

On 30 May 2013, at 14:30, Jay Ashworth wrote:

> I just subscribed to the virtualgl-users list at SF, and I subscribed 
> with
> a plushacked email address, jra+vgl@
>
> Got the confirmation email ok, of course, but when I tried to send 
> something,
> it bounced "because I'm not subscribed to the list".  I've never had 
> that
> happen before, but it's possible that I've never tried to sub a 
> plushack
> address to a Mailman list.
>
> Does Mailman in fact not understand plushacked addresses as 
> subscription
> addresses, and that it should canonicalize them when a) checking for
> duplicate subscriptions and b) accepting messages for restricted 
> lists?

It is altogether always wrong for ANY mail software outside of a domain 
to parse the local part of an address in that domain except for a tiny 
handful of standard special local parts (e.g. "postmaster"). The use of 
'+' as a tag delimiter is widespread but it is not in any sense a 
"standard" and comes nowhere near universality. There is no way for a 
Mailman instance to know which domains make "user+tag" and "user" 
equivalent and which do not, so canonicalizing as you suggest would 
result in breakage.

Beyond that risk of breakage, "canonicalizing" local parts which one 
does not own is wrong in principle: it violates the core assumption 
which makes Sendmail-style plus-tagging useful. The tagged address is 
supposed to be unique in the view of everyone except its owner and the 
owner's delivery agent, which can easily discern that an address is 
tagged (maybe with '+' but maybe not) and then handle the address and 
tag in whatever locally customized manner their whims dictate. Outside 
entities should never try to guess what those whims are at any 
particular time and more importantly should never translate an address 
from what it actually is to what their guesses about the owner's whims 
implies.

Note: you might look at my address for this list and make any of a 
number of reasonable guesses about how its structure (which *IS* 
significant) relates to its delivery and handling. Most would be 
operationally wrong and none would be complete. I tag addresses in 
opaque ways precisely because of past rude & clueless attempts by others 
(mostly spammers) to break + tagging.


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  1 21:43:25 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 12:43:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] External web access problems
In-Reply-To: <7c57-519e1280-5-10e5070@162650949>
References: <7c57-519e1280-5-10e5070@162650949>
Message-ID: <51AA4EDD.4080904@msapiro.net>

On 05/23/2013 05:58 AM, Donny Brooks wrote:
> I have setup mailman on my centos 6.3 server using yum. Everything was working with the exception of external web access due to the way our agency has to go through the state firewall. So in order to have the ability for people to subscribe/unsubscribe themselves I have set it up with a proxypass statement on our web server being that it already had http(s) access. Accessing the site works now on the inside and outside. However it is still trying to go to the mail servers URL which is only accessible via http inside our network. I got to looking at the mm_cfg.py file and noteiced I had the URLs backwards:
> 
> DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = 'mail.mdah.state.ms.us'
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mdah.state.ms.us'
> 
> so I changed them around and restarted the mailman service. Now when I go to create a new list on the web interface, internally or externally, I get the error: 
> 
> Error: Unknon virtual host: mail.mdah.state.ms.us.
> 
> I have to change it back to the original for it to work and then it only works internally. When any subscribe emails go out it won't work due to putting the mail.mdah.state.ms.us in the email instead of just mdah.state.ms.us. I have the web creation working now by adding the mail.mdah.state.ms.us explicitly under the existing add_virtualhost directive in the mm_cfg.py. However now when a new list is created and people are subscribed it still puts the mail.mdah.state.ms.us in the email so people on the outside still cannot click the link and it work. Where am I going wrong?


See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/lYA9> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  1 22:08:44 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 13:08:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] SPAM Filtering - was:(no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAA13W+8PTLJEyAKpa4S7Oue3eu+pqR3_JNgeo9qfR-nYttOM9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA13W+8BRnZAcLWJdtHwa8-bWa+_FS3UDKJOWow1en0SPhfs7w@mail.gmail.com>
	<518C21E9.2070408@msapiro.net>
	<CAA13W+8EqaViZSVxUDBVxEtxvOP76M+S07DsmocazPrBVxEbOg@mail.gmail.com>
	<51916FEB.9020100@msapiro.net>
	<CAA13W+8t-jdNPwdQuzg7DH1UJY2bSPcSDWTh-tB86PjYEyz2AQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<5191B7AB.9010202@msapiro.net>
	<CAA13W+_88dsoLJGKnnSRtSjqn1PyqpCC8+s66qW6Lq=ECR0tbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA13W+-SWHfxF8x6hAQW6CduJFFgLcq3otj5mEDn_67DC9rJZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<519269BB.2090501@msapiro.net>
	<CAA13W+8PTLJEyAKpa4S7Oue3eu+pqR3_JNgeo9qfR-nYttOM9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51AA54CC.5090109@msapiro.net>

On 05/14/2013 12:43 PM, Christopher Adams wrote:

> On another note, what are thoughts about utilizing SpamAssasin or other
> spam software with Postfix and Mailman. It seems that a lot of the traffic
> that is going through the Mailman server is spam, quite a bit which is
> flagged and blocked by using RBLS in  postfix smptd_recipient_restrictions.
> I am seeing upwards to 8,000 messages blocked every day. Is there a more
> efficient way to manage this without making it a full time job? :>)


I don't think I ever replied to this, but spam filtering is the server's
job. It should be done at the 'front door' and mail determined to be
spam should be rejected by the incoming MTA. This avoids the issue of
accepting the mail and later determining that it is unacceptable and
perhaps returning a DSN or responding in some other way to an innocent
3rd party's spoofed address.

SpamAssassin alone is not a total solution, but there are milters for
incorporating SpamAssassin as well as ClamAV scanning into Postfix.

There are also techniques like greylisting which can help in some
environments.

There are also multidimensional solutions such as MailScanner that
incorporate spam and virus scanning with many other tests, but one issue
with MailScanner is it doesn't evaluate the mail until after it is
accepted by the MTA

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jra at baylink.com  Sun Jun  2 03:06:18 2013
From: jra at baylink.com (Jay Ashworth)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 21:06:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <502DE187-9B35-40EF-B995-A17288D13E4F@billmail.scconsult.com>
Message-ID: <8805861.6792.1370135178624.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Cole" <mailmanu-20100705 at billmail.scconsult.com>

> It is altogether always wrong for ANY mail software outside of a domain
> to parse the local part of an address in that domain except for a tiny
> handful of standard special local parts (e.g. "postmaster"). The use of
> '+' as a tag delimiter is widespread but it is not in any sense a
> "standard" and comes nowhere near universality. There is no way for a
> Mailman instance to know which domains make "user+tag" and "user"
> equivalent and which do not, so canonicalizing as you suggest would
> result in breakage.

Noted.  FWIW, in 30 years, I have not seen *any* use of the + sign in 
LHSs which did not appear on its face to be a plushack... though as you
imply, I can't really tell for sure.

> Beyond that risk of breakage, "canonicalizing" local parts which one
> does not own is wrong in principle: it violates the core assumption
> which makes Sendmail-style plus-tagging useful. The tagged address is
> supposed to be unique in the view of everyone except its owner and the
> owner's delivery agent, which can easily discern that an address is
> tagged (maybe with '+' but maybe not) and then handle the address and
> tag in whatever locally customized manner their whims dictate. Outside
> entities should never try to guess what those whims are at any
> particular time and more importantly should never translate an address
> from what it actually is to what their guesses about the owner's whims
> implies.

Ok, I guess I'll buy that.  I appreciate you showing the work for me, Bill;
I hadn't thought it all the way through.

> Note: you might look at my address for this list and make any of a
> number of reasonable guesses about how its structure (which *IS*
> significant) relates to its delivery and handling. Most would be
> operationally wrong and none would be complete. I tag addresses in
> opaque ways precisely because of past rude & clueless attempts by
> others (mostly spammers) to break + tagging.

Heh.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       jra at baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates     http://baylink.pitas.com         2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA               #natog                      +1 727 647 1274

From nursejanice at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  2 17:23:36 2013
From: nursejanice at yahoo.com (Janice Boothe)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 08:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <51A921F2.2070808@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1370186616.39819.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>



--- On Fri, 5/31/13, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:


:> Yes I do mean that.? I used confirm.html since that is the naming
:> convention used to create custom pages for much of the other IO of:
:> Mailman.
:
:Some of Mailman's GUI web pages are built from templates such as
:listinfo.html, options.html and subscribe.html. Many others including
:the entire web admin interface and much of the admindb interface are not.

I understand this.? It is the basis for teh discussion!? :)


:> It seems rather odd and extremely limiting that Mailman functiuons as
:> you describe in regards to confirm.? Most of the other pages are
:> customizable (listinfo, etc), why in the world would the programmers
:> make such a choice to not allow site owners to customize the confirm
:> page?
:
:This wasn't as much of an issue when Mailman 2 was designed.

OK


:> Is this something that can be fixed in future releases as it
:> should not be very hard to do?
:
:Well, I don't know about 'hard' but it won't happen in Mailman 2.1 for
:several reasons having mostly to do with i18n considerations and the
:fact that were it to be done, I'm the one who would do it with whatever
:help I could scrounge from the community.

Maybe because I am not fully aware of il8n but I fail to see how that is an issue.? I know fo other software that uses end user selectable language sets and is highly customizable.? Also the fact that a lot of the rest of MM uses templates kind of points to the possibility that the rest ought to be able to as well.


:On the other hand, Mailman 3 is a different story. In MM 3 the core
:mailing list functions communicate with the outside via a REST API.
:Anyone is free to develop whatever web UI they want to communicate with
:the core. The web UI that will ship with MM 3 is Postorius
:<https://launchpad.net/postorius> and I think you'll find it much more
:template driven than the MM 2 UI.

I'll have to wit until the good folks at cpanel add MM3 before I can start using that.. :(


BTW thank for the work on this.? I am not trying to kick your cat here at all, merely sending in feedback on how to improve the product.

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sun Jun  2 17:50:53 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 11:50:53 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <502DE187-9B35-40EF-B995-A17288D13E4F@billmail.scconsult.com>
References: <5229490.6742.1369938613864.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
	<502DE187-9B35-40EF-B995-A17288D13E4F@billmail.scconsult.com>
Message-ID: <51AB69DD.3080600@libertytrek.org>

On 2013-06-01 1:40 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
> It is altogether always wrong for ANY mail software outside of a domain
> to parse the local part of an address in that domain except for a tiny
> handful of standard special local parts (e.g. "postmaster").

On it's own, I agree.

> The use of '+' as a tag delimiter is widespread but it is not in any
> sense a "standard" and comes nowhere near universality. There is no
> way for a Mailman instance to know which domains make "user+tag" and
> "user" equivalent and which do not, so canonicalizing as you suggest
> would result in breakage.

Currently factually and technically correct, But...

There is no reason that Mailman couldn't be enhanced with a configurable 
*option* that would allow the domain Admin to *tell* it which 
character(s) (there was recent talk on the postfix list of postfix being 
enhanced to allow multiple characters to be defined as this delimiter) 
were to be used as delimiters.

I would love to see this ability in MM3...

From srb at umich.edu  Sun Jun  2 19:45:03 2013
From: srb at umich.edu (Steve Burling)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 13:45:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <1370186616.39819.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1370186616.39819.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C5F4CC94-7111-4D6A-985D-F8B3DAD4E540@umich.edu>

On Jun 2, 2013, at 11:23 AM, Janice Boothe <nursejanice at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Maybe because I am not fully aware of il8n but I fail to see how that is an issue.  I know fo other software that uses end user selectable language sets and is highly customizable.  Also the fact that a lot of the rest of MM uses templates kind of points to the possibility that the rest ought to be able to as well.

It's open-source software; grab a copy, and start working!

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun  2 19:55:41 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 10:55:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <1370186616.39819.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1370186616.39819.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51AB871D.10603@msapiro.net>

On 06/02/2013 08:23 AM, Janice Boothe wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe because I am not fully aware of il8n but I fail to see how that is an issue.


Mailman 2.1.15 supports 37 non-English translations. Mailman 2.1.16 will
add Farsi to the list. Even assuming that switching to a template
doesn't add or change any strings in the message catalog, any new
template needs to be translated into 38 other languages. The users of a
language for which the template has not been translated see a page built
from the English template.

Thus, switching to a new template breaks that page for those users who
prefer one of the 38 non-English languages until the template is
translated into their language.

My experience tells me that this translation will happen in timely
fashion for at most 5 of the 38 languages leaving users of the other 33
or more languages with a page they may not be able to read.

This may not be an issue for you, but it is for me.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun  2 20:20:58 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 11:20:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <51AB69DD.3080600@libertytrek.org>
References: <5229490.6742.1369938613864.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
	<502DE187-9B35-40EF-B995-A17288D13E4F@billmail.scconsult.com>
	<51AB69DD.3080600@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <51AB8D0A.5000908@msapiro.net>

On 06/02/2013 08:50 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
> There is no reason that Mailman couldn't be enhanced with a configurable
> *option* that would allow the domain Admin to *tell* it which
> character(s) (there was recent talk on the postfix list of postfix being
> enhanced to allow multiple characters to be defined as this delimiter)
> were to be used as delimiters.


There is a huge difference between telling your local MTA that some
character in the local part of an address is a delimiter and that it and
what follows are not part of the address for user validation/delivery
purposes, and guessing that the same thing might be true for some remote
user's MTA.

I.e. no one without knowledge of the specific domain can know whether or
not user at remote.example.com and user+extra at remote.example.com belong to
the same person or even whether or not johndoe at remote.example.com and
JohnDoe at remote.example.com belong to the same person.

   Consequently, and due to a
   long history of problems when intermediate hosts have attempted to
   optimize transport by modifying them, the local-part MUST be
   interpreted and assigned semantics only by the host specified in the
   domain part of the address.
                 RFC 5321, sec 2.3.11


> I would love to see this ability in MM3...


The issue is moot in MM 3. There, users are distinct from their
addresses. In one installation, a user may have several addresses, be an
owner of a few lists, a member of a few lists, prefer delivery from list
1 to her user+list1 at example.com address, prefer delivery from list 2 to
her user+list2 at example.com address and prefer delivery from list 3 to
her othername at other.example.net address, and have her posts to any of
the lists from any of the addresses be recognized as member posts.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mailmanu-20100705 at billmail.scconsult.com  Sun Jun  2 20:45:58 2013
From: mailmanu-20100705 at billmail.scconsult.com (Bill Cole)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 14:45:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <51AB69DD.3080600@libertytrek.org>
References: <5229490.6742.1369938613864.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
	<502DE187-9B35-40EF-B995-A17288D13E4F@billmail.scconsult.com>
	<51AB69DD.3080600@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <3D819CF5-2B26-48CE-9892-4C5780E6D18B@billmail.scconsult.com>

On 2 Jun 2013, at 11:50, Tanstaafl wrote:

> On 2013-06-01 1:40 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
>> It is altogether always wrong for ANY mail software outside of a 
>> domain
>> to parse the local part of an address in that domain except for a 
>> tiny
>> handful of standard special local parts (e.g. "postmaster").
>
> On it's own, I agree.
>
>> The use of '+' as a tag delimiter is widespread but it is not in any
>> sense a "standard" and comes nowhere near universality. There is no
>> way for a Mailman instance to know which domains make "user+tag" and
>> "user" equivalent and which do not, so canonicalizing as you suggest
>> would result in breakage.
>
> Currently factually and technically correct, But...
>
> There is no reason that Mailman couldn't be enhanced with a 
> configurable *option* that would allow the domain Admin to *tell* it 
> which character(s) (there was recent talk on the postfix list of 
> postfix being enhanced to allow multiple characters to be defined as 
> this delimiter) were to be used as delimiters.

There's no reason MM *couldn't* be "enhanced" in many ways that it never 
*should* be. It's reasonably well-structured open source Python after 
all...

Beyond a few formally standardized cases, assuming equivalency between 
different address local parts in a foreign domain is wrong in principle 
and bad in practice. Postfix's recipient_delimiter has nothing to do 
with foreign domain addresses, it is only relevant to addresses in 
domains for which Postfix handles delivery. It is also worth noting one 
thing mentioned in that thread: it is trivial to replicate the 
functionality of having multiple delimiter characters with regular 
expression alias maps.

The original poster's difficulty was that MM did not see "user at domain" 
as a valid confirmer of a subscription by "user+tag at domain" but it would 
be profoundly wrong for MM to do so. Making MM recognize multiple tag 
delimiters would multiply the wrongness. The solution for that original 
problem is not in MM, it is for people using tagged addresses to have 
the right mix of tools and presence of mind to send mail using a 
suitable address for each message, i.e. if you subscribe to a MM list as 
"user+tag", you need to confirm the subscription from "user+tag", NOT 
"user".

There would be less of a problem with a subscriber-specific setting that 
would allow confirmed subscribers to tell MM that it should treat some 
pattern of tagged addresses as equivalent to their subscribed address. 
That would not address the OP's complaint, but it could help for people 
who are error-prone in how they send mail.

> I would love to see this ability in MM3...

To solve what problem?

I abandoned simple tagging years ago precisely because of would-be mail 
wizards who thought it could be useful to programmatically de-tag my 
addresses, allowing them to intentionally override up my personal and 
domain-level mail handling. In place of the transparent "plus hack" I 
now have slightly more complexity in server config that buys me and my 
users safer tagging while occasionally dropping a wannabe deliverability 
wizard into a blackholed moat of his own digging. The feature you want 
to see in MM3 would probably make it easier for a clueless MM admin to 
do that without bad intent or even thought. There's a certain bofhly 
appeal to that, but I try not to let that side hold sway.

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sun Jun  2 21:39:54 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 15:39:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <3D819CF5-2B26-48CE-9892-4C5780E6D18B@billmail.scconsult.com>
References: <5229490.6742.1369938613864.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
	<502DE187-9B35-40EF-B995-A17288D13E4F@billmail.scconsult.com>
	<51AB69DD.3080600@libertytrek.org>
	<3D819CF5-2B26-48CE-9892-4C5780E6D18B@billmail.scconsult.com>
Message-ID: <51AB9F8A.4010701@libertytrek.org>

On 2013-06-02 2:45 PM, Bill Cole 
<mailmanu-20100705 at billmail.scconsult.com> wrote:
> Beyond a few formally standardized cases, assuming equivalency between
> different address local parts in a foreign domain is wrong in principle
> and bad in practice.

You (and Mark) are correct of course.

I only use Mailman for our local lists for our domain, where members are 
only our own users, so was thinking only in that context, which, of 
course, was wrong.

From barry at list.org  Sun Jun  2 22:40:59 2013
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 16:40:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <3D819CF5-2B26-48CE-9892-4C5780E6D18B@billmail.scconsult.com>
References: <5229490.6742.1369938613864.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
	<502DE187-9B35-40EF-B995-A17288D13E4F@billmail.scconsult.com>
	<51AB69DD.3080600@libertytrek.org>
	<3D819CF5-2B26-48CE-9892-4C5780E6D18B@billmail.scconsult.com>
Message-ID: <20130602164059.51e59875@limelight.wooz.org>

On Jun 02, 2013, at 02:45 PM, Bill Cole wrote:

>> There is no reason that Mailman couldn't be enhanced with a > configurable
>> *option* that would allow the domain Admin to *tell* it > which
>> character(s) (there was recent talk on the postfix list of > postfix being
>> enhanced to allow multiple characters to be defined as > this delimiter)
>> were to be used as delimiters.
>
>There's no reason MM *couldn't* be "enhanced" in many ways that it never
>*should* be. It's reasonably well-structured open source Python after all...

Mailman can't really trust any email address it can't verify, even on an
admin's say so.  But it will be easier to manage multiple specific addresses
in Mailman 3 so you should be able to register (and verify) any number of
extended addresses you want.

-Barry

From nursejanice at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 14:06:50 2013
From: nursejanice at yahoo.com (Janice Boothe)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 05:06:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <51AB871D.10603@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1370261210.77502.YahooMailClassic@web121701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


--- On Sun, 6/2/13, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
To: "Janice Boothe" <nursejanice at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Mailman Users" <mailman-users at python.org>
Date: Sunday, June 2, 2013, 10:55 AM

On 06/02/2013 08:23 AM, Janice Boothe wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe because I am not fully aware of il8n but I fail to see how that is an issue.


:Mailman 2.1.15 supports 37 non-English translations. Mailman 2.1.16 will
:add Farsi to the list. Even assuming that switching to a template
:doesn't add or change any strings in the message catalog, any new
:template needs to be translated into 38 other languages. The users of a
:language for which the template has not been translated see a page built
:from the English template.

:Thus, switching to a new template breaks that page for those users who
:prefer one of the 38 non-English languages until the template is
:translated into their language.

You are assuming that a list owner is allowing/offering more than his native 
language.? Even if he were, it is on him to code his custom pages with 
the capabilities to #include the appropriate language set.? That all can
 be done with language files with the translations of any given language 
for each translatable word/ phrase and parameters that call in the 
specific phrase form the users chosen language.? If you have the dynamic ability to build a page based on the specific users chosen language, then you already have the capability to have custom pages do the same.




:My experience tells me that this translation will happen in timely
:fashion for at most 5 of the 38 languages leaving users of the other 33
:or more languages with a page they may not be able to read.

:This may not be an issue for you, but it is for me.

Perhaps you are adding in additinal languages that have such little use just to be able to say you offer a huge number of languages?? If there was a real use for all of the others, then someone soudl; translate.? Then again, you seem to already have the multi-languages built into the software so adding a template to the software would not be an issue.? It is on the list owner to design the pages to fit his audience.? This is not necessarily a replacement of what you have but rather an addition to which would make MM a lot better.? Have MM look for the template in the appropriate location and itf it exists use it, if not use the dynamic page that currently exists.? Heck simply adding that one IF statement to thr code would satisfy the objective.


-- 

Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>? ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Jun  3 15:36:57 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 22:36:57 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <1370261210.77502.YahooMailClassic@web121701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51AB871D.10603@msapiro.net>
	<1370261210.77502.YahooMailClassic@web121701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <87hahfb9ja.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Janice Boothe writes:

 > Perhaps you are adding in additinal languages that have such little
 > use just to be able to say you offer a huge number of languages??
 > If there was a real use for all of the others, then someone soudl;
 > translate.

There was a real use.  That's why someone *did* translate them.  I
know of several lists at debian.org that support all the languages we
support, and I bet those templates are used because those those lists
support translators of those many languages.


From jra at baylink.com  Mon Jun  3 19:08:58 2013
From: jra at baylink.com (Jay Ashworth)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 13:08:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <51AB69DD.3080600@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <3155445.7030.1370279338787.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tanstaafl" <tanstaafl at libertytrek.org>

> > The use of '+' as a tag delimiter is widespread but it is not in any
> > sense a "standard" and comes nowhere near universality. There is no
> > way for a Mailman instance to know which domains make "user+tag" and
> > "user" equivalent and which do not, so canonicalizing as you suggest
> > would result in breakage.
> 
> Currently factually and technically correct, But...
> 
> There is no reason that Mailman couldn't be enhanced with a configurable
> *option* that would allow the domain Admin to *tell* it which
> character(s) (there was recent talk on the postfix list of postfix being
> enhanced to allow multiple characters to be defined as this delimiter)
> were to be used as delimiters.

In fact, Bills response convinces me -- and I was the OP -- that in fact 
that's probably a bad idea: you're trying to make a decision ("does an
address LHS with a plus sign denote a plushack") at a granularity where
it's not valid.

You could do this in MM, but you would have to allow users to set it 
(likely, to enable it) at the user-subscription level, not the list
or server levels.  With that caveat, I'd vote for the RFE. :-)

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       jra at baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates     http://baylink.pitas.com         2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA               #natog                      +1 727 647 1274

From jra at baylink.com  Mon Jun  3 19:23:48 2013
From: jra at baylink.com (Jay Ashworth)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 13:23:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <3D819CF5-2B26-48CE-9892-4C5780E6D18B@billmail.scconsult.com>
Message-ID: <469205.7034.1370280228269.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Cole" <mailmanu-20100705 at billmail.scconsult.com>

> The original poster's difficulty was that MM did not see "user at domain"
> as a valid confirmer of a subscription by "user+tag at domain" but it would
> be profoundly wrong for MM to do so. Making MM recognize multiple tag
> delimiters would multiply the wrongness. The solution for that original
> problem is not in MM, it is for people using tagged addresses to have
> the right mix of tools and presence of mind to send mail using a
> suitable address for each message, i.e. if you subscribe to a MM list
> as "user+tag", you need to confirm the subscription from "user+tag", NOT
> "user".

In fact, I had no problem confirming, as I used the weblink.  It was actual
*posting* I could not then do.

> There would be less of a problem with a subscriber-specific setting that
> would allow confirmed subscribers to tell MM that it should treat some
> pattern of tagged addresses as equivalent to their subscribed address.
> That would not address the OP's complaint, but it could help for
> people who are error-prone in how they send mail.
> 
> > I would love to see this ability in MM3...
> 
> To solve what problem?

To solve the problem I initially queried about -- and I *did* query
about it in sufficient detail, Bill, for you to not mischaracterize it
here; he wants MM to recognize plushacked subscriptions for "can I post"
purposes, as do I.

> I abandoned simple tagging years ago precisely because of would-be mail
> wizards who thought it could be useful to programmatically de-tag my
> addresses, allowing them to intentionally override up my personal and
> domain-level mail handling. In place of the transparent "plus hack" I
> now have slightly more complexity in server config that buys me and my
> users safer tagging while occasionally dropping a wannabe deliverability
> wizard into a blackholed moat of his own digging. The feature you want
> to see in MM3 would probably make it easier for a clueless MM admin to
> do that without bad intent or even thought. There's a certain bofhly
> appeal to that, but I try not to let that side hold sway.

Very clever response, but I think it's a response to a "1% of 1%" problem,
and thus not pertinent to this architectural problem.

To recap:

RFE: That mailman 3 permit users to specify that they subscribe with
plus-hacked addresses (and optionally what delimiter character they use),
for the purpose of poster-address validation on lists for which subscriber-
only posting is enabled.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       jra at baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates     http://baylink.pitas.com         2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA               #natog                      +1 727 647 1274

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun  3 21:19:37 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 12:19:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <469205.7034.1370280228269.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
References: <469205.7034.1370280228269.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
Message-ID: <51ACEC49.7070300@msapiro.net>

On 06/03/2013 10:23 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
> 
> RFE: That mailman 3 permit users to specify that they subscribe with
> plus-hacked addresses (and optionally what delimiter character they use),
> for the purpose of poster-address validation on lists for which subscriber-
> only posting is enabled.


As has been pointed out, MM 3 is different. Whereas, in MM 2.1 every
email address on a list is a separate entity unrelated to any other on
that list or other lists within that installation, MM 3 is different.

In an MM 3 installation, a person has a user record with multiple
addresses and roles. See my post at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2013-June/075216.html>.

I think MM 3's design already satisfies your RFE. You would just add
your un-plus-hacked address to your user record.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jra at baylink.com  Mon Jun  3 21:26:53 2013
From: jra at baylink.com (Jay Ashworth)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 15:26:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <51ACEC49.7070300@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <32188253.7054.1370287613837.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net>

> On 06/03/2013 10:23 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
> >
> > RFE: That mailman 3 permit users to specify that they subscribe with
> > plus-hacked addresses (and optionally what delimiter character they
> > use),
> > for the purpose of poster-address validation on lists for which
> > subscriber-
> > only posting is enabled.
> 
> As has been pointed out, MM 3 is different. Whereas, in MM 2.1 every
> email address on a list is a separate entity unrelated to any other on
> that list or other lists within that installation, MM 3 is different.
> 
> In an MM 3 installation, a person has a user record with multiple
> addresses and roles. See my post at
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2013-June/075216.html>.
> 
> I think MM 3's design already satisfies your RFE. You would just add
> your un-plus-hacked address to your user record.

Yeah, I saw that after, and given that you only need to add the one
extra address to cater for all the lists you might plushack separately,
I guess it really does solve the problem.

A few grafs on this in the doco or on the wiki might not go amiss, unless
I'm really the only person who's ever asked, in which case nevermind. :-) 

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       jra at baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates     http://baylink.pitas.com         2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA               #natog                      +1 727 647 1274

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun  3 21:04:10 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 12:04:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <1370261210.77502.YahooMailClassic@web121701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1370261210.77502.YahooMailClassic@web121701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51ACE8AA.7040601@msapiro.net>

On 06/03/2013 05:06 AM, Janice Boothe wrote:
> 
> You are assuming that a list owner is allowing/offering more than his native 
> language.


No, I am not. I am saying that if his list's language is one whose new
template is untranslated in the new release, that page is broken for his
list.


> Even if he were, it is on him to code his custom pages with 
> the capabilities to #include the appropriate language set.


You are ignoring the majority of sites/admins/list owners who do not
customize their Mailman web UI.


> That all can
>  be done with language files with the translations of any given language 
> for each translatable word/ phrase and parameters that call in the 
> specific phrase form the users chosen language.  If you have the dynamic ability to build a page based on the specific users chosen language, then you already have the capability to have custom pages do the same.


The various strings that are used to build the page dynamically are
translated in that language's message catalog. I suppose I could figure
out how to pull them together to make a translated template, but it's
way more work than I am willing to do, and I'm sure the result would be
less than desirable.

As has been pointed out, this is an open source project. Please feel
free to submit your implementation for consideration in a future Mailman
2.1 release. As far as Mailman 3/Postorius is concerned, I think this
issue is already being addressed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cyndi at norwitz.net  Tue Jun  4 00:21:03 2013
From: cyndi at norwitz.net (Cyndi Norwitz)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 15:21:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Privacy Options Filtering
References: <F6EC2488-52F2-4352-AE65-BED5935B2B3F@norwitz.net>
Message-ID: <633AA8E8-6C17-4027-A566-7D45A5900D7C@norwitz.net>

This must have come at a bad time because no one seemed to have seen it.  I'm reposting.

Thanks,
Cyndi


Begin forwarded message:

From: Cyndi Norwitz <cyndi at norwitz.net>
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Privacy Options Filtering
Date: April 29, 2013 1:54:26 PM PDT
To: Mailman-Users at python.org

Hi Mark and everyone,

I'm going to call this a bug, for lack of a better term.

I use Mailman version 2.1.11.  It's hosted at my ISP and I have zero control over upgrading.  Sometimes they do some custom builds but I doubt that's an issue here.  I've had the same set of issues with previous versions.

I'm having some issues with:
Privacy options: List of non-member addresses whose postings will be automatically discarded.

But it's about the list of expressions and not this specific box.

First of all, as a wish list, I would love love love if you made some changes to this feature.  I know many folks do not filter for spam but I find it very useful.  I can add email addresses to the spam list (you don't call it a spam list, but I do) from the moderation panel, which is awesome.  The trouble is with editing.

1) Yea! You fixed this one already!  The edit box shows 10 lines of addresses at a time.  Now you've added a pull-down expand corner to the box, thank you!

2) To add a domain name to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^[^@]+@(.*\.)?domain\.com$  (or use net, info, etc).
In other words, the only way to actually know that is to be a programmer or to ask on this list and save it for years, as I did.

Couldn't we just list the domains, in a separate box if required?  After all, we just list the email addresses and obviously the software knows how to handle them.  If we had a box for domains, couldn't the software be programmed to handle them?

3) To add a username (or partial) to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^username
That is way easier than domain names but still not something most of us just know.  And it only works if it's the beginning of the email address.
Could there be an easier way?  I don't want to run the risk of list owners overdoing this, but some spam usernames are super obvious.  Like freecredit or onlinepoker. 

4) It would be fantastic if we could add an entire domain name to the list of filters from the moderation panel.  Right now it is a multi-step process to do this (and difficult in part because my spam list is so very long).  Again, it would have to be done in a way where a listowner didn't overdo it (like discarding everything from yahoo.com or aol.com because some spammers use those addresses).  But it is pretty frustrating to have a moderation page with, say, 6 spams in a row from the same domain name (something obvious) but each one uses a different username, and you know hundreds more are coming.

Okay, that's the wish list.  Now on to the bug.

The moderation panel click feature will add ANY email address to the filter lists upon request.  There is no check to see if it is a legit email address or not.  But if it adds a bad address, it breaks the filter.  The filter does still work, but it may not work for all the good addresses.  I'm not sure if it works up to the bad address and then stops.

I have had this happen many times and there is no warning at all.  The only way you know is if you try to edit the filter box list.  Then when you save changes, it erases all of your changes and gives you an error message.  The error message I got today said there was a bad email address and then it listed ALL of the addresses (and expressions) in my list.  Very not useful.

I have too many to scan, though I did start from the bottom (the newer ones) and paged up a bit with no luck.  The only way to debug this is to cut and paste the entire list to a text file then paste back a few addresses at a time and save the changes to see if it works.  It took me about 20 mins.  I discovered three bad addresses, not anywhere near each other either, though my guess is they're variations on the same spammer.
nets.service at denmark
nets.kort at service
nets at service-kort

In the past, I've had addresses rejected for having certain symbols in the usernames.  This is the first time I've seen missing domain name places.  I do try to look for bad addresses when I add them to the discard list from the moderation panel, but I get a lot of spam and sometimes I miss them (not to mention that they're not always obvious like these are).

I would like to see the bad email error message come up when you ADD the email address.  If it's done directly on the Privacy page then leave it exactly as it is now.  But please add a check to the moderation page so you can't add a bad email address without at least being warned about it (better if it's rejected).

Also, when giving the error message, please say which address(es) is bad.

That's it for now.  I may not have been posting here for a long time but I'm still a happy Mailman user.

Thanks!
Cyndi

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun  4 02:00:48 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 17:00:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Privacy Options Filtering
In-Reply-To: <633AA8E8-6C17-4027-A566-7D45A5900D7C@norwitz.net>
References: <F6EC2488-52F2-4352-AE65-BED5935B2B3F@norwitz.net>
	<633AA8E8-6C17-4027-A566-7D45A5900D7C@norwitz.net>
Message-ID: <51AD2E30.8030606@msapiro.net>

On 06/03/2013 03:21 PM, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
> This must have come at a bad time because no one seemed to have seen it.


I saw it, left it in my inbox for later and never saw it again until
now. Sorry and thanks for reposting.


> First of all, as a wish list, I would love love love if you made some changes to this feature.  I know many folks do not filter for spam but I find it very useful.  I can add email addresses to the spam list (you don't call it a spam list, but I do) from the moderation panel, which is awesome.  The trouble is with editing.
> 
> 1) Yea! You fixed this one already!  The edit box shows 10 lines of addresses at a time.  Now you've added a pull-down expand corner to the box, thank you!


Actually, that's your browser. We didn't change anything.


> 2) To add a domain name to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
> ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?domain\.com$  (or use net, info, etc).
> In other words, the only way to actually know that is to be a programmer or to ask on this list and save it for years, as I did.


Your regexp is a bit more complicated than it needs to be. This is
equivalent.

^.*[@.]domain\.com$

Also, I think there are lots of people who think of themselves as
programmers who don't understand regexps, and people who have a working
knowledge of regexps who don't think of themselves as programmers, but I
understand your point.


> Couldn't we just list the domains, in a separate box if required?  After all, we just list the email addresses and obviously the software knows how to handle them.  If we had a box for domains, couldn't the software be programmed to handle them?


This won't happen in MM 2.1 for the same reasons as those mentioned in
the ongoing "Custom Pages" thread at
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg62744.html>

I don't know if this will be available in Postorius for MM 3. The
Mailman-developers at python.org list would be the place to follow up.


> 3) To add a username (or partial) to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
> ^username
> That is way easier than domain names but still not something most of us just know.  And it only works if it's the beginning of the email address.


And when is the username (local-part) not at the beginning of the email
address? Or do you mean matching things like xxxfreecredit at ...?


> Could there be an easier way?  I don't want to run the risk of list owners overdoing this, but some spam usernames are super obvious.  Like freecredit or onlinepoker. 


Learn simple regular expressions. There are lots of good references, and
in their simpler forms, they're not much different from 'globs'.

Any 'simple' UI that attempted to translate say 'a string that matches a
part of the email address to the left of the @' into the corresponding
match would probably be unwieldy with too many options and would still
not have the power of simple regular expressions.


> 4) It would be fantastic if we could add an entire domain name to the list of filters from the moderation panel.  Right now it is a multi-step process to do this (and difficult in part because my spam list is so very long).  Again, it would have to be done in a way where a listowner didn't overdo it (like discarding everything from yahoo.com or aol.com because some spammers use those addresses).  But it is pretty frustrating to have a moderation page with, say, 6 spams in a row from the same domain name (something obvious) but each one uses a different username, and you know hundreds more are coming.


See the last part of the answer to number 2.


> Okay, that's the wish list.  Now on to the bug.
> 
> The moderation panel click feature will add ANY email address to the filter lists upon request.  There is no check to see if it is a legit email address or not.  But if it adds a bad address, it breaks the filter.  The filter does still work, but it may not work for all the good addresses.  I'm not sure if it works up to the bad address and then stops.


OK. This is a bug. I have entered it in the tracker at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1187201> and I will fix it, but
I'm not yet sure how. And the filter does continue to work for all
addresses, even the bad ones.


> I have had this happen many times and there is no warning at all.  The only way you know is if you try to edit the filter box list.  Then when you save changes, it erases all of your changes and gives you an error message.  The error message I got today said there was a bad email address and then it listed ALL of the addresses (and expressions) in my list.  Very not useful.
> 
> I have too many to scan, though I did start from the bottom (the newer ones) and paged up a bit with no luck.  The only way to debug this is to cut and paste the entire list to a text file then paste back a few addresses at a time and save the changes to see if it works.  It took me about 20 mins.  I discovered three bad addresses, not anywhere near each other either, though my guess is they're variations on the same spammer.
> nets.service at denmark
> nets.kort at service
> nets at service-kort


The check is a very simple one, and it only validates the form of the
address. It doesn't in any way check if the address exists, only if it
contains invalid characters or as in the case of these three, doesn't
have at least one dot (.) in the domain part.


> In the past, I've had addresses rejected for having certain symbols in the usernames.  This is the first time I've seen missing domain name places.  I do try to look for bad addresses when I add them to the discard list from the moderation panel, but I get a lot of spam and sometimes I miss them (not to mention that they're not always obvious like these are).
> 
> I would like to see the bad email error message come up when you ADD the email address.  If it's done directly on the Privacy page then leave it exactly as it is now.  But please add a check to the moderation page so you can't add a bad email address without at least being warned about it (better if it's rejected).


That's my inclination for the fix. I.e. don't add the address to the
filter and say why, but what else should or shouldn't be done. E.g.
suppose this is one address out of 5 to be added from 5 posts. Do we
abort the whole transaction, do everything else anyway or something in
between.


> Also, when giving the error message, please say which address(es) is bad.


I'll see if that can be done with only minor impact, although if the bug
is fixed, there should be no bad addresses in the existing list, so it's
less of a problem.


> That's it for now.  I may not have been posting here for a long time but I'm still a happy Mailman user.


Glad to hear it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun  4 09:54:32 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 16:54:32 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?
In-Reply-To: <32188253.7054.1370287613837.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
References: <51ACEC49.7070300@msapiro.net>
	<32188253.7054.1370287613837.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
Message-ID: <87bo7mb9af.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jay Ashworth writes:

 > A few grafs on this in the doco or on the wiki might not go amiss,
 > unless I'm really the only person who's ever asked, in which case
 > nevermind. :-)

I still don't understand what you're asking for, unless it's

"""
Mailman subscribes *exactly* the address you give it.  In tests based
on list membership, it will do a case-insensitive comparison on the
domain, and a case-sensitive comparison on the local-part.  Mailman
does not know or care about variations like mail subdomains or the
"plus hack".  If you want Mailman to know about such variations, you
will need to subscribe them to each relevant list (Mailman 2), or
do something-we-don't-exactly-know-yet-but-IMHO-probably-will-be-
almost-as-inconvenient (Mailman 3).[1]
"""

We could go on to say

"""
Mailman *can't* be "plushack aware", because there's no standard for
using it and there are common use cases with completely incompatible
semantics.  Some people have a "misc content" address and "specific
topic" addresses, and use the plus hack to enable their MDA to sort by
content into topic folders.  Others have a real address and use the
plus hack to provide fake addresses to identify which of their
correspondents have been harvested by spammers and/or use
reply-to-all.  And then there are the sociopaths who use TMDA.

The only way to allow such a wide variety of use cases is for the user
to explicitly specify which addresses are allowed to post and which
receive mail, and that's already possible, at the reasonable cost of
an extra subscription set to no-mail (unless you use runtime-generated
plushack addresses like TMDA).
"""

but I think that's excessively technical.

Footnotes: 
[1]  As Mark says, MM 3 will have Users, but I personally do not want
all the addresses I use allowed to post to all the lists I subscribe
to.  So I'll still have to flip the toggle list-by-list, even on the
same Mailman installation in some cases.  I suspect without data that
this is actually the common case.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun  4 10:25:47 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 17:25:47 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Privacy Options Filtering
In-Reply-To: <51AD2E30.8030606@msapiro.net>
References: <F6EC2488-52F2-4352-AE65-BED5935B2B3F@norwitz.net>
	<633AA8E8-6C17-4027-A566-7D45A5900D7C@norwitz.net>
	<51AD2E30.8030606@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87a9n6b7uc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > On 06/03/2013 03:21 PM, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

 > > Could there be an easier way?  I don't want to run the risk of
 > > list owners overdoing this, but some spam usernames are super
 > > obvious.  Like freecredit or onlinepoker.
 > 
 > Learn simple regular expressions. There are lots of good references, and
 > in their simpler forms, they're not much different from 'globs'.
 > 
 > Any 'simple' UI that attempted to translate say 'a string that matches a
 > part of the email address to the left of the @' into the corresponding
 > match would probably be unwieldy with too many options and would still
 > not have the power of simple regular expressions.

+1.  There could be an easier way, but I don't know what it is.  The
only real alternative would be to optionally allow globs, but that
would require additional syntax in a single box or an extra box.  Two
boxes strikes me as an attractive nuisance, and it would catch some
power users, too.

 > > The moderation panel click feature will add ANY email address to
 > > the filter lists upon request.  There is no check to see if it is
 > > a legit email address or not.  But if it adds a bad address, it
 > > breaks the filter.  The filter does still work, but it may not
 > > work for all the good addresses.  I'm not sure if it works up to
 > > the bad address and then stops.

Cyndi: I don't understand what you mean by "breaks", especially given
Mark saying it works.  Mark doesn't miss much, but there's always a
first time. :-)

 > OK. This is a bug. I have entered it in the tracker at
 > <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1187201> and I will fix it, but
 > I'm not yet sure how. And the filter does continue to work for all
 > addresses, even the bad ones.

Well, is it a bug?  It seems to me that depends on whether the setting
is REJECT (it's a bug, although only wasting the MTA's time AFAICS) or
DISCARD (not a bug).  If it's DISCARD, surely the admin intends to
nuke that spammer in the future, too?  I don't know if this argument
applies to evil characters in the address but it should be true for
invalid domains.

 > > I have had this happen many times and there is no warning at all.
 > > The only way you know is if you try to edit the filter box list.
 > > Then when you save changes, it erases all of your changes and
 > > gives you an error message.  The error message I got today said
 > > there was a bad email address and then it listed ALL of the
 > > addresses (and expressions) in my list.  Very not useful.

This is Mailman's way of letting you know that you're abusing the
system. ;-)  Yes, I know you don't think you have a choice. :-(  I
don't think it would be terribly hard for us to do better though; see
below.

 > > I would like to see the bad email error message come up when you
 > > ADD the email address.  If it's done directly on the Privacy page
 > > then leave it exactly as it is now.  But please add a check to
 > > the moderation page so you can't add a bad email address without
 > > at least being warned about it (better if it's rejected).
 > 
 > That's my inclination for the fix. I.e. don't add the address to the
 > filter and say why, but what else should or shouldn't be done. E.g.
 > suppose this is one address out of 5 to be added from 5 posts. Do we
 > abort the whole transaction, do everything else anyway or something in
 > between.

I would say Mailman should (1) add all the valid addresses, (2) give
an error message specifying any addresses Mailman rejected, followed
(3, in the same page) by a confirmation message saying which addresses
were added.  Also, it might be useful to *prepend* the new addresses
to the list or regexp.



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun  5 02:02:43 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 17:02:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Privacy Options Filtering
In-Reply-To: <87a9n6b7uc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <F6EC2488-52F2-4352-AE65-BED5935B2B3F@norwitz.net>
	<633AA8E8-6C17-4027-A566-7D45A5900D7C@norwitz.net>
	<51AD2E30.8030606@msapiro.net>
	<87a9n6b7uc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <51AE8023.7090106@msapiro.net>

On 06/04/2013 01:25 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
>  > OK. This is a bug. I have entered it in the tracker at
>  > <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1187201> and I will fix it, but
>  > I'm not yet sure how. And the filter does continue to work for all
>  > addresses, even the bad ones.
> 
> Well, is it a bug?  It seems to me that depends on whether the setting
> is REJECT (it's a bug, although only wasting the MTA's time AFAICS) or
> DISCARD (not a bug).  If it's DISCARD, surely the admin intends to
> nuke that spammer in the future, too?  I don't know if this argument
> applies to evil characters in the address but it should be true for
> invalid domains.


The bug is only that if you select "Add <invalid address> to one of
these sender filters:" Mailman will add the address to one of the
*_these_nonmembers filters and later you will be unable to edit that
filter through the web UI unless and until you remove the invalid address.


>  > That's my inclination for the fix. I.e. don't add the address to the
>  > filter and say why, but what else should or shouldn't be done. E.g.
>  > suppose this is one address out of 5 to be added from 5 posts. Do we
>  > abort the whole transaction, do everything else anyway or something in
>  > between.
> 
> I would say Mailman should (1) add all the valid addresses, (2) give
> an error message specifying any addresses Mailman rejected, followed
> (3, in the same page) by a confirmation message saying which addresses
> were added.  Also, it might be useful to *prepend* the new addresses
> to the list or regexp.


I've started to implement (1) and (2). (3) may or may not be tricky, but
I'll see.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Jun  5 02:54:41 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 09:54:41 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Privacy Options Filtering
In-Reply-To: <51AE8023.7090106@msapiro.net>
References: <F6EC2488-52F2-4352-AE65-BED5935B2B3F@norwitz.net>
	<633AA8E8-6C17-4027-A566-7D45A5900D7C@norwitz.net>
	<51AD2E30.8030606@msapiro.net>
	<87a9n6b7uc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<51AE8023.7090106@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87wqq99y26.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > The bug is only that if you select "Add <invalid address> to one of
 > these sender filters:" Mailman will add the address to one of the
 > *_these_nonmembers filters and later you will be unable to edit that
 > filter through the web UI unless and until you remove the invalid
 > address.

Ah, OK.  I would say that the only things it ever makes sense to do
with an invalid address is to HOLD (and inform the user, if known to
the moderator, otherwise discard), or DISCARD.  So it gets complex if
you try to DTRT (IMO, suggest to the admin they should DISCARD these
addresses).  It's probably not worth it doing so much to try to fix it,
especially in Mailman 2.

From barfod at message-mobile.de  Wed Jun  5 12:04:07 2013
From: barfod at message-mobile.de (Lennart Barfod)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 12:04:07 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with Mailman LDAPMemberships Adapter
Message-ID: <B5F9DB06-FB6F-4B2A-9C27-A0FB4CA3E362@message-mobile.de>

Hi community,

I've installed mailman (Version 2.1.12) at my CentOS 6 server and in gernerally it works fine.

So know I want to use the LDAP Extension (https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558106) to build my mailingliste in LDAP.
After some problems with Python-ldap now i configured a mailinglist "test" and created a extend.py file in the Listfolder, like this:

######
from Mailman.LDAPMemberships import LDAPMemberships

def extend(list):
    ldap = LDAPMemberships(list)
    ldap.ldapdigestsearch = None        # if digests are enabled, this search is for digest members.    
    ldap.ldapserver = "ldap://ldap.<myserver>.de:389" # your LDAP server
    ldap.ldapbasedn = "cn=test,ou=mailman,ou=Mandanten,dc=<my-domain>,dc=de" # your base DN
    ldap.ldapbinddn = ''                 # bind DN that can access 'mail' field
    ldap.ldappasswd = ''                 # bind password for ldapbinddn
    ldap.ldaptls = False            # Use TLS, must be set to True or False
    ldap.ldapmemberattr = 'member'
    ldap.ldapgroupattr = '' # if using groups, attribute that holds DN info.
                            # Omit or set to null string if not using groups.
    list._memberadaptor = ldap 
#####

The LDAP entry "cn=test,?" contains some "members".

Now I want to see the members in the admin web frontend. By choosing the menu option "Membership Management" I get an error message in my webbrowser (Bug in Mailman).
In the error logfile I found this:

admin(24882): [----- Traceback ------] 
admin(24882): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(24882):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 112, in run_main
admin(24882):     main()
admin(24882):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 196, in main
admin(24882):     show_results(mlist, doc, category, subcat, cgidata)
admin(24882):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 497, in show_results
admin(24882):     form.AddItem(membership_options(mlist, subcat, cgidata, doc, form))
admin(24882):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 870, in membership_options
admin(24882):     all = [_m.encode() for _m in mlist.getMembers()]
admin(24882):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/LDAPMemberships.py", line 296, in getMembers
admin(24882):     return self.__ldap_get_members()
admin(24882):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/LDAPMemberships.py", line 275, in __ldap_get_members
admin(24882):     return self.__ldap_get_regularmembers() + self.__ldap_get_digestmembers()
admin(24882): AttributeError: LDAPMemberships instance has no attribute '_LDAPMemberships__ldap_get_regularmembers'
admin(24882): [----- Python Information -----] 
admin(24882): sys.version     =   2.6.6 (r266:84292, Feb 22 2013, 00:00:18) 
[GCC 4.4.7 20120313 (Red Hat 4.4.7-3)] 
admin(24882): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python 
admin(24882): sys.prefix      =   /usr 
admin(24882): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr 
admin(24882): sys.path        =   /usr 
admin(24882): sys.platform    =   linux2 

The important line is this: admin(24882): AttributeError: LDAPMemberships instance has no attribute '_LDAPMemberships__ldap_get_regularmembers'

But I don't know what it means ? it seems that another Funktion doesn't work correctly?!
Any ideas?

Best regards,
Lenni

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun  5 17:21:33 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 08:21:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with Mailman LDAPMemberships Adapter
In-Reply-To: <B5F9DB06-FB6F-4B2A-9C27-A0FB4CA3E362@message-mobile.de>
References: <B5F9DB06-FB6F-4B2A-9C27-A0FB4CA3E362@message-mobile.de>
Message-ID: <51AF577D.7070806@msapiro.net>

On 06/05/2013 03:04 AM, Lennart Barfod wrote:
> 
> So know I want to use the LDAP Extension (https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558106) to build my mailingliste in LDAP.
> After some problems with Python-ldap now i configured a mailinglist "test" and created a extend.py file in the Listfolder, like this:
> 
[...]
> 
> The important line is this: admin(24882): AttributeError: LDAPMemberships instance has no attribute '_LDAPMemberships__ldap_get_regularmembers'
> 
> But I don't know what it means ? it seems that another Funktion doesn't work correctly?!
> Any ideas?


It means something is broken in the installation. The actual error makes
no sense. It shows that what is being executed is "return
self.__ldap_get_regularmembers() + self.__ldap_get_digestmembers()", but
then it is trying to get self._LDAPMemberships__ldap_get_regularmembers
instead of self.__ldap_get_regularmembers().

Did you restart Mailman after installing LDAPMemberships.py and the
extend.py file? This actually shouldn't be the problem because the error
occurs in the admin CGI, but I suppose it could help.

Exactly which LDAPMemberships.py version do you have?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From barfod at message-mobile.de  Wed Jun  5 17:29:58 2013
From: barfod at message-mobile.de (Lennart Barfod)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 17:29:58 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with Mailman LDAPMemberships Adapter
In-Reply-To: <51AF577D.7070806@msapiro.net>
References: <B5F9DB06-FB6F-4B2A-9C27-A0FB4CA3E362@message-mobile.de>
	<51AF577D.7070806@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <C3AA8268-7010-4EE7-9E4E-035CC42B826A@message-mobile.de>

Hi Mark,

I'm using the LDAPMembership.py Version 0.63.

Yes I restartet mailman some times after adding the extend.py.

Ok, so I should reinstall mailman and Python-ldap? Or where seems to be the problem? 



Am 05.06.2013 um 17:21 schrieb Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:

> On 06/05/2013 03:04 AM, Lennart Barfod wrote:
>> 
>> So know I want to use the LDAP Extension (https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558106) to build my mailingliste in LDAP.
>> After some problems with Python-ldap now i configured a mailinglist "test" and created a extend.py file in the Listfolder, like this:
>> 
> [...]
>> 
>> The important line is this: admin(24882): AttributeError: LDAPMemberships instance has no attribute '_LDAPMemberships__ldap_get_regularmembers'
>> 
>> But I don't know what it means ? it seems that another Funktion doesn't work correctly?!
>> Any ideas?
> 
> 
> It means something is broken in the installation. The actual error makes
> no sense. It shows that what is being executed is "return
> self.__ldap_get_regularmembers() + self.__ldap_get_digestmembers()", but
> then it is trying to get self._LDAPMemberships__ldap_get_regularmembers
> instead of self.__ldap_get_regularmembers().
> 
> Did you restart Mailman after installing LDAPMemberships.py and the
> extend.py file? This actually shouldn't be the problem because the error
> occurs in the admin CGI, but I suppose it could help.
> 
> Exactly which LDAPMemberships.py version do you have?
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun  6 02:47:19 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 17:47:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with Mailman LDAPMemberships Adapter
In-Reply-To: <C3AA8268-7010-4EE7-9E4E-035CC42B826A@message-mobile.de>
References: <B5F9DB06-FB6F-4B2A-9C27-A0FB4CA3E362@message-mobile.de>
	<51AF577D.7070806@msapiro.net>
	<C3AA8268-7010-4EE7-9E4E-035CC42B826A@message-mobile.de>
Message-ID: <51AFDC17.3050506@msapiro.net>

On 06/05/2013 08:29 AM, Lennart Barfod wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> I'm using the LDAPMembership.py Version 0.63.
> 
> Yes I restartet mailman some times after adding the extend.py.
> 
> Ok, so I should reinstall mailman and Python-ldap? Or where seems to be the problem? 


There seems to be a serious coding error in LDAPMemberships.py, version
0.63. Namely, at line 274-275, the code

    def __ldap_get_members(self):
        return self.__ldap_get_regularmembers() +
self.__ldap_get_digestmembers()

(watch out for wrapped line)

should be

    def __ldap_get_members(self):
        return self.__ldap_get_regular_members() +
self.__ldap_get_digest_members()


I wonder how many people are actually using this?

If you fix that and restart Mailman, I think you'll be OK.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From nursejanice at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  4 01:12:38 2013
From: nursejanice at yahoo.com (Janice Boothe)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 16:12:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <51ACE8AA.7040601@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1370301158.43457.YahooMailClassic@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 6/3/13, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

On 06/03/2013 05:06 AM, Janice Boothe wrote:
> 
> You are assuming that a list owner is allowing/offering more than his native 
> language.


:No, I am not. I am saying that if his list's language is one whose new
:template is untranslated in the new release, that page is broken for his
:list.

First thank you for continuing to discuss this with me.? As I either have siad or intended to, this is not a personal attack on you or anyone else, it is feedback...

The templates should not have a thing to do with translations (IMHO) and even if they did it would be the list owner who elects to have custom pages to design his pages for all languages he offers.? You are mistakenly thinking I am asking you to do much more than what I am.



> Even if he were, it is on him to code his custom pages with 
> the capabilities to #include the appropriate language set.


:You are ignoring the majority of sites/admins/list owners who do not
:customize their Mailman web UI.

It is irrelevant discussion to those who chose to use the vanilla MM pages.


> That all can
>? be done with language files with the translations of any given language 
> for each translatable word/ phrase and parameters that call in the 
> specific phrase form the users chosen language.? If you have the dynamic ability to build a page based on the specific users chosen language, then you already have the capability to have custom pages do the same.


:The various strings that are used to build the page dynamically are
:translated in that language's message catalog. I suppose I could figure
:out how to pull them together to make a translated template, but it's
:way more work than I am willing to do, and I'm sure the result would be
:less than desirable.

I'm not sure what method you use to pull them together already in the vanilla version of the MM pages, but it seems that you ought to be able to use that exact same method for custom pages.? But it all goes back to the fact that if someone wants custom pages they are the one responsible for writing them so that their languages are addressed.? The whole thing can be addressed by simply adding some sort of IF loop around the body of code that generates the dynamic pages that have no template customization.? Simply test for the presence of the appropriate file name in the appropriate location. If it exists use that and if not proceed with the dynamic build.? I'd do it myself but to dig through the huge mass of code that the programmers already know and could easily modify would take someone such as myself (who knows nohting about what coding conventions are used etc) and extraordinary amount of time.


:As has been pointed out, this is an open source project. Please feel
:free to submit your implementation for consideration in a future Mailman
:2.1 release. As far as Mailman 3/Postorius is concerned, I think this
:issue is already being addressed.

Does not my posts here seem to be recommendations?

I'd enjoy looking into MM3 but the link I was provided is at the very least obscure and extremely difficult to figure anything about the project.? I looked there and absolutely have no idea in hell what is going on with the project, the status, the ETA, who is involved, who to contact about questions suggestions etc.? If there is a link that is a little more user friendly I would love to get it and get on board.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>? ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun  6 03:27:08 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 18:27:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <1370301158.43457.YahooMailClassic@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1370301158.43457.YahooMailClassic@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51AFE56C.7040704@msapiro.net>

On 06/03/2013 04:12 PM, Janice Boothe wrote:
> 
> 
> --- On Mon, 6/3/13, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
> On 06/03/2013 05:06 AM, Janice Boothe wrote:
>>
>> You are assuming that a list owner is allowing/offering more than his native 
>> language.
> 
> 
> :No, I am not. I am saying that if his list's language is one whose new
> :template is untranslated in the new release, that page is broken for his
> :list.
> 
> First thank you for continuing to discuss this with me.  As I either have siad or intended to, this is not a personal attack on you or anyone else, it is feedback...
> 
> The templates should not have a thing to do with translations (IMHO) and even if they did it would be the list owner who elects to have custom pages to design his pages for all languages he offers.  You are mistakenly thinking I am asking you to do much more than what I am.


You seem to be looking at this from the point of view of a list/site
admin who wants to make custom templates for her list/site.

My position however is that of a software developer/distributor who
distributes a package that the majority of users expect to work "out of
the box", regardless of which of the supported languages they use.


>> Even if he were, it is on him to code his custom pages with 
>> the capabilities to #include the appropriate language set.


No. He expects the package to work out of the box without requiring him
to translate new templates into his language which is supposedly supported.


> :You are ignoring the majority of sites/admins/list owners who do not
> :customize their Mailman web UI.
> 
> It is irrelevant discussion to those who chose to use the vanilla MM pages.


No. It is exactly the point of the discussion. Vanilla pages should work
in all supported languages. Introducing new templates at this point
breaks those pages until they are translated.



> But it all goes back to the fact that if someone wants custom pages they are the one responsible for writing them so that their languages are addressed.  The whole thing can be addressed by simply adding some sort of IF loop around the body of code that generates the dynamic pages that have no template customization.


I'm not concerned about the users who will make their own customized,
translated pages. I'm concerned about those who don't want to.


> Simply test for the presence of the appropriate file name in the appropriate location. If it exists use that and if not proceed with the dynamic build.  I'd do it myself but to dig through the huge mass of code that the programmers already know and could easily modify would take someone such as myself (who knows nohting about what coding conventions are used etc) and extraordinary amount of time.


And for someone such as me who has been said to know the Mailman 2.1
code base better than anyone else, it is way more work than I am willing
to do. I suppose I could make a template in which all the actual text
was simply replacements from the current dynamically generated text.
Then you couldn't customize the text, at least not directly, which
semi-defeats the purpose of a template, but you could customize the HTML
tags which might satisfy your requirement, but as I said, it's more than
I (we're all unpaid volunteers, and I don't even have a day job) am
willing to do.

The Mailman 2.1 branch is not the future of Mailman. I'm just the rear
guard holding things together until Mailman 3 is ready for prime time


> I'd enjoy looking into MM3 but the link I was provided is at the very least obscure and extremely difficult to figure anything about the project.  I looked there and absolutely have no idea in hell what is going on with the project, the status, the ETA, who is involved, who to contact about questions suggestions etc.  If there is a link that is a little more user friendly I would love to get it and get on board.


Try the wiki. Start here
<http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface> and here
<http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+3.0>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From nursejanice at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 04:49:56 2013
From: nursejanice at yahoo.com (Janice Boothe)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 19:49:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <51AFE56C.7040704@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1370486996.3070.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 6/5/13, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
To: "Janice Boothe" <nursejanice at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Mailman Users" <mailman-users at python.org>
Date: Wednesday, June 5, 2013, 6:27 PM

On 06/03/2013 04:12 PM, Janice Boothe wrote:
> 
> 
> --- On Mon, 6/3/13, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
> On 06/03/2013 05:06 AM, Janice Boothe wrote:
>>
>> You are assuming that a list owner is allowing/offering more than his native 
>> language.
> 
> 
> :No, I am not. I am saying that if his list's language is one whose new
> :template is untranslated in the new release, that page is broken for his
> :list.
> 
> First thank you for continuing to discuss this with me.? As I either have siad or intended to, this is not a personal attack on you or anyone else, it is feedback...
> 
> The templates should not have a thing to do with translations (IMHO) and even if they did it would be the list owner who elects to have custom pages to design his pages for all languages he offers.? You are mistakenly thinking I am asking you to do much more than what I am.


:You seem to be looking at this from the point of view of a list/site
:admin who wants to make custom templates for her list/site.

:My position however is that of a software developer/distributor who
:distributes a package that the majority of users expect to work "out of
:the box", regardless of which of the supported languages they use.

True to some extent.? However as a developer (IMHO) one ought to code so that the software is usable by all.? My coding convention is to allow end users to use the software without locking them into things like look and feel set to the way I personally like them.? Working out of the box and being able to customize the look and feel are absolutely not mutually exclusive.

>> Even if he were, it is on him to code his custom pages with 
>> the capabilities to #include the appropriate language set.


:No. He expects the package to work out of the box without requiring him
:to translate new templates into his language which is supposedly supported.

Both of these should be present.? Simply allowing a template or custom page does not preclude the use of a dynamic page.? I personally do not know how to do it in python, but it can be programmed so that after a test for a custom page is made, either the custom page (if it is present) is used or the default dynamic page is used if no custom page is present..

> :You are ignoring the majority of sites/admins/list owners who do not
> :customize their Mailman web UI.
> 
> It is irrelevant discussion to those who chose to use the vanilla MM pages.


:No. It is exactly the point of the discussion. Vanilla pages should work
:in all supported languages. Introducing new templates at this point
:breaks those pages until they are translated.

Again you are thinking that allowing for a custom page precludes the use of a dynamic vanilla page.? It does not have to be an either/or situation. 

> But it all goes back to the fact that if someone wants custom pages they are the one responsible for writing them so that their languages are addressed.? The whole thing can be addressed by simply adding some sort of IF loop around the body of code that generates the dynamic pages that have no template customization.


:I'm not concerned about the users who will make their own customized,
:translated pages. I'm concerned about those who don't want to.

Therein is the rub.? This is (close to) the big issue that many have with Microsoft.? Their nazi programming practices boil down to 'you will use our software the way we think it should look and you will like it" in that they offer very little customization (think IE v. FF).? As programmers we ought to not be unconcerned with any of our end users.

> Simply test for the presence of the appropriate file name in the appropriate location. If it exists use that and if not proceed with the dynamic build.? I'd do it myself but to dig through the huge mass of code that the programmers already know and could easily modify would take someone such as myself (who knows nohting about what coding conventions are used etc) and extraordinary amount of time.


:And for someone such as me who has been said to know the Mailman 2.1
:code base better than anyone else, it is way more work than I am willing
:to do. I suppose I could make a template in which all the actual text
:was simply replacements from the current dynamically generated text.
:Then you couldn't customize the text, at least not directly, which
:semi-defeats the purpose of a template, but you could customize the HTML
:tags which might satisfy your requirement, but as I said, it's more than
:I (we're all unpaid volunteers, and I don't even have a day job) am
:willing to do.

:The Mailman 2.1 branch is not the future of Mailman. I'm just the rear
:guard holding things together until Mailman 3 is ready for prime time



> I'd enjoy looking into MM3 but the link I was provided is at the very least obscure and extremely difficult to figure anything about the project.? I looked there and absolutely have no idea in hell what is going on with the project, the status, the ETA, who is involved, who to contact about questions suggestions etc.? If there is a link that is a little more user friendly I would love to get it and get on board.


Try the wiki. Start here
<http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface> and here
<http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+3.0>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>? ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun  6 05:52:32 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 20:52:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Custom Pages
In-Reply-To: <1370486996.3070.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1370486996.3070.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51B00780.1070007@msapiro.net>

On 06/05/2013 07:49 PM, Janice Boothe wrote:
> 
> 
> --- On Wed, 6/5/13, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
> :I'm not concerned about the users who will make their own customized,
> :translated pages. I'm concerned about those who don't want to.
> 
> Therein is the rub.  This is (close to) the big issue that many have with Microsoft.  Their nazi programming practices boil down to 'you will use our software the way we think it should look and you will like it" in that they offer very little customization (think IE v. FF).  As programmers we ought to not be unconcerned with any of our end users.


The difference is it's open source, not Microsoft proprietary. If you
want a feature that's not supported, you have the code and the right to
modify it in any way you wish or to pay someone else to do it for you,
and if you wish, contribute your code back to the project.

Also, my attitude would be much different if we were talking about
something that was not already at the end of its life cycle.

If you peruse the archives of this list, you'll see that comparing the
Mailman project's support and concern for users of our software even
peripherally to Microsoft does us a great disservice. If I gave the
impression that I was telling you that your issue was not important, I
apologize. I have only been trying to explain why I'm not interested in
doing this thing in this case.

Of course, it would be much better if Mailman's entire web UI was much
more easily customizable by end users. It is a worthwhile design goal
that I think is embodied in Mailman 3, but when Mailman 2 was developed,
just having a web UI at all was a major improvement over software like
Majordomo, and much of the end user interface is template driven, just
not all.

As far as the subscribe results page goes, as I pointed out earlier in
this thread
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2013-May/075202.html>,
it is fairly easy to add a style sheet to this page.

Also, you could do what some others have done and create your own
subscribe CGI, submit data from it to Mailman's subscribe CGI, receive
the result from Mailman and parse it and present it to your user any way
you like.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From barfod at message-mobile.de  Thu Jun  6 11:33:57 2013
From: barfod at message-mobile.de (Lennart Barfod)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 11:33:57 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with Mailman LDAPMemberships Adapter
In-Reply-To: <51AFDC17.3050506@msapiro.net>
References: <B5F9DB06-FB6F-4B2A-9C27-A0FB4CA3E362@message-mobile.de>
	<51AF577D.7070806@msapiro.net>
	<C3AA8268-7010-4EE7-9E4E-035CC42B826A@message-mobile.de>
	<51AFDC17.3050506@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <657188A2-F448-45A0-A374-31CD1664A37F@message-mobile.de>

Hi Mark,

thank you very much for your help! Now it works!
And thanks  for fixing it at launchpad.

King regards,
Lenni


Am 06.06.2013 um 02:47 schrieb Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:

> On 06/05/2013 08:29 AM, Lennart Barfod wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> I'm using the LDAPMembership.py Version 0.63.
>> 
>> Yes I restartet mailman some times after adding the extend.py.
>> 
>> Ok, so I should reinstall mailman and Python-ldap? Or where seems to be the problem? 
> 
> 
> There seems to be a serious coding error in LDAPMemberships.py, version
> 0.63. Namely, at line 274-275, the code
> 
>    def __ldap_get_members(self):
>        return self.__ldap_get_regularmembers() +
> self.__ldap_get_digestmembers()
> 
> (watch out for wrapped line)
> 
> should be
> 
>    def __ldap_get_members(self):
>        return self.__ldap_get_regular_members() +
> self.__ldap_get_digest_members()
> 
> 
> I wonder how many people are actually using this?
> 
> If you fix that and restart Mailman, I think you'll be OK.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Jan.Lausch at gmx.de  Thu Jun  6 14:52:32 2013
From: Jan.Lausch at gmx.de (Jan Lausch)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 14:52:32 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM3  [was: Re:  Custom Pages]
In-Reply-To: <51B00780.1070007@msapiro.net>
References: <1370486996.3070.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
	<51B00780.1070007@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <trinity-872a185e-b5f2-43e6-85c4-be13c5305d0b-1370523151792@3capp-gmx-bs64>

Guys,


> Also, my attitude would be much different if we were talking about
> something that was not already at the end of its life cycle.

This brings me to a question I keep asking myself once every year for quite some time now: 

What's up with MM3? 
Is there any indication on when it will be ready?

I really don't want to complain at people who donate spare time for good, please don't take this as offensive, but is there any indication of a release date or a mayor pre-release or, well, let's be honest: is there any progress at all?

I mean, the main wiki page http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+3.0 has been last updated 3 years ago. Still, their list of work to be done looks good - but that's probably only the tip of the work to be done. On the other hand the frontend works don't even seem to have begun properly (no templating engine chosen, only mockups)...

I really don't want to be impolite and I know that you aren't in charge, but: Do you know anything more than us? Is there any work going on? Is it dead? 

I have been living with mailman limitations for so many years now and still it is one very reliable and great work of code - but still there's so much more this could be and let's face it: mailing lists aren't currently gaining ground as the web develops. I believe many people could have great use for a modern state of the art mailing engine with the features that are currently up to date.

Regards,
jan

From barry at list.org  Thu Jun  6 15:29:11 2013
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 09:29:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM3  [was: Re:  Custom Pages]
In-Reply-To: <trinity-872a185e-b5f2-43e6-85c4-be13c5305d0b-1370523151792@3capp-gmx-bs64>
References: <1370486996.3070.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<51B00780.1070007@msapiro.net>
	<trinity-872a185e-b5f2-43e6-85c4-be13c5305d0b-1370523151792@3capp-gmx-bs64>
Message-ID: <20130606092911.47a54505@anarchist>

On Jun 06, 2013, at 02:52 PM, Jan Lausch wrote:

>What's up with MM3? 
>Is there any indication on when it will be ready?

Yes, although most of the conversation happens on mailman-developers these
days.  I expect we'll see a lot of great progress on Postorius (the new web
ui) during this year's Google Summer of Code, which should bring that
component much closer to release.  We'll do a join release of the core + ui
after that.

-Barry

From cnulk at scu.edu  Thu Jun  6 17:35:43 2013
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 08:35:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems with Mailman LDAPMemberships Adapter
In-Reply-To: <51AFDC17.3050506@msapiro.net>
References: <B5F9DB06-FB6F-4B2A-9C27-A0FB4CA3E362@message-mobile.de>
	<51AF577D.7070806@msapiro.net>
	<C3AA8268-7010-4EE7-9E4E-035CC42B826A@message-mobile.de>
	<51AFDC17.3050506@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51B0AC4F.30003@scu.edu>

Hi Mark,

I don't know about others but I still use the LDAP adapter here. And I 
still appreciate the assistance you gave to get it working.

Thanks again,
Chris

On 6/5/2013 5:47 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 06/05/2013 08:29 AM, Lennart Barfod wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I'm using the LDAPMembership.py Version 0.63.
>>
>> Yes I restartet mailman some times after adding the extend.py.
>>
>> Ok, so I should reinstall mailman and Python-ldap? Or where seems to be the problem?
>
> There seems to be a serious coding error in LDAPMemberships.py, version
> 0.63. Namely, at line 274-275, the code
>
>      def __ldap_get_members(self):
>          return self.__ldap_get_regularmembers() +
> self.__ldap_get_digestmembers()
>
> (watch out for wrapped line)
>
> should be
>
>      def __ldap_get_members(self):
>          return self.__ldap_get_regular_members() +
> self.__ldap_get_digest_members()
>
>
> I wonder how many people are actually using this?
>
> If you fix that and restart Mailman, I think you'll be OK.
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun  7 01:41:35 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 16:41:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM3  [was: Re:  Custom Pages]
In-Reply-To: <trinity-872a185e-b5f2-43e6-85c4-be13c5305d0b-1370523151792@3capp-gmx-bs64>
References: <1370486996.3070.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
	<51B00780.1070007@msapiro.net>
	<trinity-872a185e-b5f2-43e6-85c4-be13c5305d0b-1370523151792@3capp-gmx-bs64>
Message-ID: <51B11E2F.5040708@msapiro.net>

On 06/06/2013 05:52 AM, Jan Lausch wrote:
> 
> I really don't want to complain at people who donate spare time for good, please don't take this as offensive, but is there any indication of a release date or a mayor pre-release or, well, let's be honest: is there any progress at all?


To add a bit to Barry's reply, there have been a few beta releases of
the core. At least one site is using it in production.

Postorius is still alpha, but much is going on.

Look at the commits at
<https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0> and
<https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/postorius/trunk> and the bug
trackers and you'll see much is being done and many are involved.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Jun  7 09:38:36 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 16:38:36 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  MM3  [was: Re:  Custom Pages]
In-Reply-To: <trinity-872a185e-b5f2-43e6-85c4-be13c5305d0b-1370523151792@3capp-gmx-bs64>
References: <1370486996.3070.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<51B00780.1070007@msapiro.net>
	<trinity-872a185e-b5f2-43e6-85c4-be13c5305d0b-1370523151792@3capp-gmx-bs64>
Message-ID: <87ehce9xqb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jan Lausch writes:

 > I mean, the main wiki page
 > http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+3.0 has been last updated
 > 3 years ago.

Yeah, this is a problem.  There's been a lot of water flowed under
that bridge since then, but you can only see it if you look at the
source trees (I mean the NEWS files, not the .py files :-).

It would be nice if somebody would take a look at the state of the
world and update the front page of the wiki and maybe ghost-write a
blog entry for Barry.

I personally might be in a position to do it at reasonable personal
cost around mid-summer (I'm mentoring a GSoC student so will need to
get back up to speed on the state of the art), but not before then.

Steve

From Adrian.ORiordan at analog.com  Fri Jun  7 12:38:56 2013
From: Adrian.ORiordan at analog.com (ORiordan, Adrian)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 10:38:56 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List Owner Confirmation Link on
	Subscribe/Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <C977B19F2D7FCE4D8CF8DD6434064493875416@NWD2MBX6.ad.analog.com>


Hi everyone,

One of the neat features of Mailman I like is the confirmation link which is sent to a user upon subscribing (when the maillist is set to confirm). Is it possible to add this feature for when the list owner is notified for subscriptions/subscriptions? So instead of the usual admin link, there's a confirm url which doesn't require a user logging in with the list administrator password? Simply clicking the link would confirm the user's subscribe/unsubscribe request. I had a look through the confirm python file, but unfortunately I don't have enough experience with the language to make the necessary changes,

Thanks for your time,

Regards,
Adrian

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun  7 22:34:23 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 13:34:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List Owner Confirmation Link on
	Subscribe/Unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <C977B19F2D7FCE4D8CF8DD6434064493875416@NWD2MBX6.ad.analog.com>
References: <C977B19F2D7FCE4D8CF8DD6434064493875416@NWD2MBX6.ad.analog.com>
Message-ID: <51B243CF.9040400@msapiro.net>

On 06/07/2013 03:38 AM, ORiordan, Adrian wrote:
> 
> One of the neat features of Mailman I like is the confirmation link
> which is sent to a user upon subscribing (when the maillist is set to
> confirm). Is it possible to add this feature for when the list owner
> is notified for subscriptions/subscriptions? So instead of the usual
> admin link, there's a confirm url which doesn't require a user
> logging in with the list administrator password?


This would be somewhat complex to do as currently unlike for a
subscription request waiting confirmation from the user, there is no
entry in the list's pending database and thus no confirmation token for
a subscription request waiting admin approval. Not only that, but there
is currently no pending record type for a subscription request waiting
admin approval.

All these things would have to be addressed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sat Jun  8 12:43:07 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 06:43:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure and
	hard shutdown
Message-ID: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org>

Hello,

Ok, we had a power failure, and apparently my UPS thought it had more 
time left than it did, as the UPS shut down before it shut down the system.

Everything is back up and running, and postfix is running fine for all 
other mail, except list/mailman mail.

I'm getting the following error when trying to send an email to one of 
the lists:

2013-06-08T06:30:47-04:00 myhost postfix/postsuper[29691]: Requeued: 1 
message
2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/pickup[3124]: D55D7B7D175: 
uid=207 from=<valid-list at media-brokers.com> orig_id=45BF8B7B393
2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/cleanup[29631]: D55D7B7D175: 
message-id=<51B30786.7020805 at media-brokers.com>
2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[3126]: D55D7B7D175: 
from=<valid-list-bounces at media-brokers.com>, size=4065, nrcpt=6 (queue 
active)
2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[3126]: warning: connect to 
transport private/local: Resource temporarily unavailable
2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[3126]: warning: connect to 
transport private/retry: Resource temporarily unavailable

I've run check_perms and it says 'No problems found'...

Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,

charles

From larry at qhpress.org  Sat Jun  8 14:10:12 2013
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 08:10:12 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <51B31F24.8050703@qhpress.org>

On 6/8/2013 6:43 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:

> Ok, we had a power failure, and apparently my UPS thought it had more
> time left than it did, as the UPS shut down before it shut down the system.
>
> Everything is back up and running, and postfix is running fine for all
> other mail, except list/mailman mail.

Is mailman possibly not running?  Try this:
ps -A | grep mailmanctl

If that gives blank output, try this:
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start

(This was the solution for me when I had a similar problem a month and a 
half ago.  I would like to know where to plug this in so it happens 
automatically on reboot.  That should be an elementary question but I'm 
still not familiar with all these sysadmin tasks.)

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org



From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sat Jun  8 14:52:19 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 08:52:19 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B31F24.8050703@qhpress.org>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B31F24.8050703@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <51B32903.5000903@libertytrek.org>

On 2013-06-08 8:10 AM, Larry Kuenning <larry at qhpress.org> wrote:
> Is mailman possibly not running?  Try this:
> ps -A | grep mailmanctl
>
> If that gives blank output, try this:
> /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start

Not blank - but what does the question mark mean?

# ps -A | grep mailmanctl
  2600 ?        00:00:00 mailmanctl

> (This was the solution for me when I had a similar problem a month and a
> half ago.  I would like to know where to plug this in so it happens
> automatically on reboot.  That should be an elementary question but I'm
> still not familiar with all these sysadmin tasks.)

I've tried restarting mailman (appears to work), and even tried rebooting...

Thanks for the assist - any other ideas?

Note: I think this is related to the three postfix errors I posted 
regarding a problem with the local transport - but I've googled and 
can't find a solution for that either...

I only posted two of these here:

2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[3126]: warning: connect to 
transport private/local: Resource temporarily unavailable
2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[3126]: warning: connect to 
transport private/retry: Resource temporarily unavailable

The third, which I don't see every time, is:

postfix/master[29913]: warning: master_wakeup_timer_event: service 
tlsmgr(private/tlsmgr): Resource temporarily unavailable

From larry at qhpress.org  Sat Jun  8 17:33:11 2013
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 11:33:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B32903.5000903@libertytrek.org>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B31F24.8050703@qhpress.org>
	<51B32903.5000903@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <51B34EB7.4030502@qhpress.org>

On 6/8/2013 8:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2013-06-08 8:10 AM, Larry Kuenning <larry at qhpress.org> wrote:
>> Is mailman possibly not running?  Try this:
>> ps -A | grep mailmanctl
>>
>> If that gives blank output, try this:
>> /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start
>
> Not blank - but what does the question mark mean?
>
> # ps -A | grep mailmanctl
>   2600 ?        00:00:00 mailmanctl

Leaving out the "grep" to get the header ("ps -C mailmanctl" would have 
been better to start with) I see that that column is headed "TTY".  I 
guess the question mark means the process is not tied to a terminal and 
so will continue running even if all users log out.  Which is the 
behavior you want, so the problem must be elsewhere.

> Thanks for the assist - any other ideas?

Now you need help from somebody who actually knows how Mailman works.

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org



From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  8 19:01:00 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 10:01:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B31F24.8050703@qhpress.org>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B31F24.8050703@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <51B3634C.2050304@msapiro.net>

On 06/08/2013 05:10 AM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> 
> (This was the solution for me when I had a similar problem a month and a
> half ago.  I would like to know where to plug this in so it happens
> automatically on reboot.  That should be an elementary question but I'm
> still not familiar with all these sysadmin tasks.)


The GNU Mailman tarball distribution contains misc/mailman.in which
configure uses to make misc/mailman.

This is a sample init.d script for Mailman and it contains instructions
for installing and activating it on RedHat/CentOS and Debian/Ubuntu.

And if you installed Mailman from a package, your packager should have
provided this or something similar.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  8 19:04:54 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 10:04:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B34EB7.4030502@qhpress.org>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B31F24.8050703@qhpress.org>
	<51B32903.5000903@libertytrek.org> <51B34EB7.4030502@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <51B36436.80105@msapiro.net>

On 06/08/2013 08:33 AM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> On 6/8/2013 8:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>>
>> Not blank - but what does the question mark mean?
>>
>> # ps -A | grep mailmanctl
>>   2600 ?        00:00:00 mailmanctl
> 
> Leaving out the "grep" to get the header ("ps -C mailmanctl" would have
> been better to start with)


And 'ps -fwC python' or 'ps -fwu mailman' will show the qrunners too,
but all this is moot as it is extremely unlikely that Postfix errors
have anything to do with whether or not Mailman is actually running.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  8 19:20:19 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 10:20:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <51B367D3.3060500@msapiro.net>

On 06/08/2013 03:43 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
> I'm getting the following error when trying to send an email to one of
> the lists:
> 
> 2013-06-08T06:30:47-04:00 myhost postfix/postsuper[29691]: Requeued: 1
> message
> 2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/pickup[3124]: D55D7B7D175:
> uid=207 from=<valid-list at media-brokers.com> orig_id=45BF8B7B393
> 2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/cleanup[29631]: D55D7B7D175:
> message-id=<51B30786.7020805 at media-brokers.com>
> 2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[3126]: D55D7B7D175:
> from=<valid-list-bounces at media-brokers.com>, size=4065, nrcpt=6 (queue
> active)


Postfix has received the message and is trying to deliver it via the
local transport which is good.


> 2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[3126]: warning: connect to
> transport private/local: Resource temporarily unavailable


but Postfix can't find the local transport or more likely there is a
stale lock on the transport left over from before the crash, so Postfix
tries to queue the message for retry.


> 2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[3126]: warning: connect to
> transport private/retry: Resource temporarily unavailable


but it can't access the retry transport either ...


> I've run check_perms and it says 'No problems found'...


Because this isn't a Mailman problem. It's a Postfix problem. I don't
know enough Postfix to point directly at a solution, but I doubt that
Postfix can deliver any mail via the local transport.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  8 19:58:17 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 10:58:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B367D3.3060500@msapiro.net>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B367D3.3060500@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51B370B9.4010200@msapiro.net>

On 06/08/2013 10:20 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> Postfix has received the message and is trying to deliver it via the
> local transport which is good.
> 
> 
>> 2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[3126]: warning: connect to
>> transport private/local: Resource temporarily unavailable
> 
> 
> but Postfix can't find the local transport or more likely there is a
> stale lock on the transport left over from before the crash, so Postfix
> tries to queue the message for retry.
> 
> 
>> 2013-06-08T06:31:12-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[3126]: warning: connect to
>> transport private/retry: Resource temporarily unavailable
> 
> 
> but it can't access the retry transport either ...


Actually, private/local and private/retry refer to the sockets used for
communication between the Postfix master and the various daemons. If you
do 'netstat -l' you should see these and many others 'LISTENING', Do you?

I don't know why a reboot or even just a stop and start of Postfix
doesn't fix this. If you stop and start Postfix, are there any messages
in the mail logs beyond the "postfix/master[pppp]: daemon started ..."
message?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From guest2 at sgeinc.com  Sat Jun  8 20:20:29 2013
From: guest2 at sgeinc.com (Richard Shetron)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 14:20:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B34EB7.4030502@qhpress.org>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B31F24.8050703@qhpress.org>
	<51B32903.5000903@libertytrek.org> <51B34EB7.4030502@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <51B375ED.30504@sgeinc.com>

I'd suggest trying "ps -auxww|grep mailman" to seem if any mailman 
processes are running, this assumes mailman runs as its own user id. 
Some installs use the username list or lists instead of mailman.

If nothing show up then I'd check:

1)  /etc/postfix/*.cf and /etc/postfix/transport and diff them with an 
older copy to make sure they haven't changed.

2)  check /var/lib/mailman/qfiles/maildir
     The actual location may depend on your version and installation 
options.
     If mailman is NOT running then the cur subdir should be empty.
     I've found mailman will not restart if there is anything in the 
directory cur.  I'd check the files, if any, in both new and cur and tmp 
just to see what's there.

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sat Jun  8 23:21:05 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 17:21:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B370B9.4010200@msapiro.net>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B367D3.3060500@msapiro.net>
	<51B370B9.4010200@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51B3A041.9030303@libertytrek.org>

On 2013-06-08 1:58 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> Actually, private/local and private/retry refer to the sockets used for
> communication between the Postfix master and the various daemons. If you
> do 'netstat -l' you should see these and many others 'LISTENING', Do you?

Yep, they're all there. And local is working - at least sometimes (see 
below) :(

> I don't know why a reboot or even just a stop and start of Postfix
> doesn't fix this. If you stop and start Postfix, are there any messages
> in the mail logs beyond the "postfix/master[pppp]: daemon started ..."
> message?

Nothing more than the three warnings I already posted, two of which you 
see below, and the third being:

> 2013-06-08T13:10:19-04:00 myhost postfix/master[4076]: warning: master_wakeup_timer_event: service tlsmgr(private/tlsmgr): Resource temporarily unavailable

But, I have more details after some testing...

First, mailman is definitely working. I tested sending to one of my test 
lists with just two people on it, and it works fine:

> 2013-06-08T16:28:31-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 88BA3831DC: from=<CMarcus at Media-Brokers.com>, size=743, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
> 2013-06-08T16:28:31-04:00 myhost postfix-587/smtpd[5878]: disconnect from client.atl.media-brokers.com[192.168.1.110]
> 2013-06-08T16:28:31-04:00 myhost postfix/local[5884]: 88BA3831DC: to=<test-list at smtp.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<test-list at media-brokers.com>, relay=local, delay=0.31, delays=0.08/0/0/0.23, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib64/mailman/mail/mailman post test-list)
> 2013-06-08T16:28:31-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 88BA3831DC: removed
> 2013-06-08T16:28:32-04:00 myhost dovecot: imap(cmarcus at media-brokers.com): Connection closed in=1013 out=1725269
> 2013-06-08T16:28:32-04:00 myhost dovecot: imap-login: Login: user=<cmarcus at media-brokers.com>, method=PLAIN, rip=192.168.1.110, lport=993, mpid=5900, TLS, session=<T7IhZKreIgDAqAFu>
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix-25/smtpd[5887]: connect from myhost.media-brokers.com[127.0.0.1]
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix-25/smtpd[5887]: 668EA831DC: client=myhost.media-brokers.com[127.0.0.1]
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix/cleanup[5883]: 668EA831DC: message-id=<51B393EF.2010908 at Media-Brokers.com>
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 668EA831DC: from=<test-list-bounces at media-brokers.com>, size=1269, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix-25/smtpd[5887]: 77983189530: client=myhost.media-brokers.com[127.0.0.1]
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix/cleanup[5883]: 77983189530: message-id=<51B393EF.2010908 at Media-Brokers.com>
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 77983189530: from=<test-list-bounces at media-brokers.com>, size=1271, nrcpt=2 (queue active)
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix-25/smtpd[5887]: disconnect from myhost.media-brokers.com[127.0.0.1]
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix/virtual[5889]: 77983189530: to=<recipient at media-brokers.com>, relay=virtual, delay=0.2, delays=0.05/0/0/0.15, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to maildir)
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix/pipe[5890]: 77983189530: to=<recipient#media-brokers.com at autoreply.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<recipient at media-brokers.com>, relay=vacation, delay=0.4, delays=0.05/0/0/0.35, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via vacation service)
> 2013-06-08T16:28:33-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 77983189530: removed
> 2013-06-08T16:28:35-04:00 myhost postfix/smtp[5888]: 668EA831DC: to=<recipient at example.org>, relay=filtered.maildistiller.com[176.31.241.80]:25, delay=1.8, delays=0.07/0/0.62/1.1, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 0F38F157)
> 2013-06-08T16:28:35-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 668EA831DC: removed

I tested with another list that has 6 people on it, two of whom have 
their vacation message enabled (I use postfixadmin vacation), and while 
all 6 recipients got the message, there were two messages that got stuck 
in the queue that are related to the vacation message:

> 2013-06-08T16:36:50-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 4F86719D832: from=<CMarcus at Media-Brokers.com>, size=935, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:50-04:00 myhost postfix-587/smtpd[5968]: disconnect from client.atl.media-brokers.com[192.168.1.110]
> 2013-06-08T16:36:50-04:00 myhost postfix/local[5970]: 4F86719D832: to=<test-list2 at smtp.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<test-list2 at media-brokers.com>, relay=local, delay=0.28, delays=0.09/0.01/0/0.18, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib64/mailman/mail/mailman post test-list2)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:50-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 4F86719D832: removed
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix-25/smtpd[5973]: connect from myhost.media-brokers.com[127.0.0.1]
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix-25/smtpd[5973]: 22FAC19D832: client=myhost.media-brokers.com[127.0.0.1]
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/cleanup[5969]: 22FAC19D832: message-id=<51B395E2.7070107 at Media-Brokers.com>
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 22FAC19D832: from=<test-list2-bounces at media-brokers.com>, size=1442, nrcpt=9 (queue active)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix-25/smtpd[5973]: disconnect from myhost.media-brokers.com[127.0.0.1]
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: warning: connect to transport private/vacation: Resource temporarily unavailable
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: warning: connect to transport private/retry: Resource temporarily unavailable
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 22FAC19D832: to=<validuser1#media-brokers.com at autoreply.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<validuser at media-brokers.com>, relay=none, delay=0.15, delays=0.07/0.08/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (mail transport unavailable)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 22FAC19D832: to=<validuser2#media-brokers.com at autoreply.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<validuser2 at media-brokers.com>, relay=none, delay=0.21, delays=0.07/0.14/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (mail transport unavailable)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/virtual[5974]: 22FAC19D832: to=<validuser3 at media-brokers.com>, relay=virtual, delay=0.28, delays=0.07/0.14/0/0.07, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to maildir)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/virtual[5974]: 22FAC19D832: to=<validuser4 at media-brokers.com>, relay=virtual, delay=0.37, delays=0.07/0.14/0/0.16, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to maildir)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/virtual[5974]: 22FAC19D832: to=<validuser5 at media-brokers.com>, relay=virtual, delay=0.47, delays=0.07/0.14/0/0.25, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to maildir)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/virtual[5974]: 22FAC19D832: to=<validuser1 at media-brokers.com>, relay=virtual, delay=0.56, delays=0.07/0.14/0/0.35, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to maildir)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/virtual[5974]: 22FAC19D832: to=<validuser6 at media-brokers.com>, relay=virtual, delay=0.65, delays=0.07/0.14/0/0.43, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to maildir)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:52-04:00 myhost postfix/virtual[5974]: 22FAC19D832: to=<validuser7 at media-brokers.com>, relay=virtual, delay=0.72, delays=0.07/0.14/0/0.51, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to maildir)
> 2013-06-08T16:36:53-04:00 myhost postfix/virtual[5974]: 22FAC19D832: to=<validuser2 at media-brokers.com>, relay=virtual, delay=0.88, delays=0.07/0.14/0/0.66, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to maildir)

As you can see, only the two vacation messages are deferred with 
transport unavailable.

It also appears that the problem manifests with NESTED lists:

> 2013-06-08T17:07:43-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 8485738737A: from=<CMarcus at Media-Brokers.com>, size=3474, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
> 2013-06-08T17:07:43-04:00 myhost postfix-587/smtpd[6187]: disconnect from client.atl.media-brokers.com[192.168.1.110]
> 2013-06-08T17:07:43-04:00 myhost postfix/local[6190]: 8485738737A: to=<lists-all at smtp.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<lists-all at Media-Brokers.com>, relay=local, delay=0.3, delays=0.08/0/0/0.22, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib64/mailman/mail/mailman post lists-all)
> 2013-06-08T17:07:43-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: 8485738737A: removed
> 2013-06-08T17:07:44-04:00 myhost postfix-25/smtpd[6206]: connect from myhost.media-brokers.com[127.0.0.1]
> 2013-06-08T17:07:44-04:00 myhost postfix-25/smtpd[6206]: D682B38737A: client=myhost.media-brokers.com[127.0.0.1]
> 2013-06-08T17:07:44-04:00 myhost postfix/cleanup[6182]: D682B38737A: message-id=<51B39D1F.3050404 at Media-Brokers.com>
> 2013-06-08T17:07:44-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: D682B38737A: from=<lists-all-bounces at media-brokers.com>, size=3933, nrcpt=6 (queue active)
> 2013-06-08T17:07:44-04:00 myhost postfix-25/smtpd[6206]: disconnect from myhost.media-brokers.com[127.0.0.1]
> 2013-06-08T17:07:44-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: warning: connect to transport private/local: Resource temporarily unavailable
> 2013-06-08T17:07:44-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: warning: connect to transport private/retry: Resource temporarily unavailable
> 2013-06-08T17:07:45-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: D682B38737A: to=<list-1 at smtp.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<list-1 at media-brokers.com>, relay=none, delay=0.17, delays=0.1/0.08/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (mail transport unavailable)
> 2013-06-08T17:07:45-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: D682B38737A: to=<list-2 at smtp.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<list-2 at media-brokers.com>, relay=none, delay=0.22, delays=0.1/0.13/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (mail transport unavailable)
> 2013-06-08T17:07:45-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: D682B38737A: to=<list-3 at smtp.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<list-3 at media-brokers.com>, relay=none, delay=0.3, delays=0.1/0.2/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (mail transport unavailable)
> 2013-06-08T17:07:45-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: D682B38737A: to=<list-4 at smtp.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<list-4 at media-brokers.com>, relay=none, delay=0.36, delays=0.1/0.26/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (mail transport unavailable)
> 2013-06-08T17:07:45-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: D682B38737A: to=<list-5 at smtp.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<list-5 at media-brokers.com>, relay=none, delay=0.41, delays=0.1/0.32/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (mail transport unavailable)
> 2013-06-08T17:07:45-04:00 myhost postfix/qmgr[4078]: D682B38737A: to=<list-6 at smtp.media-brokers.com>, orig_to=<list-6 at media-brokers.com>, relay=none, delay=0.47, delays=0.1/0.37/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (mail transport unavailable)

I imagine that the two problems are being caused by the same problem, 
whatever it is...

It also seems to be something to do with how many recipients are 
involved. One or two appear to be ok, but more than that and it gets iffy...

Appreciate any more thoughts on this weirdness, because I'm stumped....

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  8 23:44:36 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 14:44:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B3A041.9030303@libertytrek.org>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B367D3.3060500@msapiro.net>
	<51B370B9.4010200@msapiro.net> <51B3A041.9030303@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <51B3A5C4.5020509@msapiro.net>

On 06/08/2013 02:21 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
> It also seems to be something to do with how many recipients are
> involved. One or two appear to be ok, but more than that and it gets
> iffy...


I think that's a coincidence. The biggest problem is with delivery from
Postfix to Mailman, at which point nothing knows how many list members
there are or how many messages Mailman will send.


> Appreciate any more thoughts on this weirdness, because I'm stumped....


See this
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/postfix-users/message/245375>,
particularly the replies from Wietse.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sun Jun  9 00:10:53 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 18:10:53 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B3A5C4.5020509@msapiro.net>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B367D3.3060500@msapiro.net>
	<51B370B9.4010200@msapiro.net> <51B3A041.9030303@libertytrek.org>
	<51B3A5C4.5020509@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51B3ABED.3010902@libertytrek.org>

On 2013-06-08 5:44 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> On 06/08/2013 02:21 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>>
>> It also seems to be something to do with how many recipients are
>> involved. One or two appear to be ok, but more than that and it gets
>> iffy...
>
>
> I think that's a coincidence. The biggest problem is with delivery from
> Postfix to Mailman, at which point nothing knows how many list members
> there are or how many messages Mailman will send.
>
>> Appreciate any more thoughts on this weirdness, because I'm stumped....
>
> See this
> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/postfix-users/message/245375>,
> particularly the replies from Wietse.

I read them all, and I don't think it is relevant (this is the same 
kernel and same versions of postfix dovecot and mailman for some time 
now), but, I changed the default limit to 10 and reloaded postfix, with 
the same error when sending to my 'All' list (that has only 6 members, 
all lists).

Also, as I said, lists that only have individual recipients work just 
fine, even with 30+ recipients.

Also the weirdness when a list member has their vacation enabled - they 
get the original list message, but the vacation message gets stuck in 
the queue with the error.

I'm thinking of trying to reinstalling (this is gentoo, so that will be 
easy) first mailman, then postfix... I'll probably try that tomorrow if 
no other solution presents itself.

Thanks for your help, Mark, much appreciated...

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun  9 01:13:14 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 16:13:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B3ABED.3010902@libertytrek.org>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B367D3.3060500@msapiro.net>
	<51B370B9.4010200@msapiro.net> <51B3A041.9030303@libertytrek.org>
	<51B3A5C4.5020509@msapiro.net> <51B3ABED.3010902@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <51B3BA8A.20906@msapiro.net>

On 06/08/2013 03:10 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
> I read them all, and I don't think it is relevant (this is the same
> kernel and same versions of postfix dovecot and mailman for some time
> now), but, I changed the default limit to 10 and reloaded postfix, with
> the same error when sending to my 'All' list (that has only 6 members,
> all lists).


How long was the system up before the crash, and during that time did
you change any dynamic configuration parameters the would have been
reverted by the crash.


> Also, as I said, lists that only have individual recipients work just
> fine, even with 30+ recipients.


So, the doesn't occur with a single message to a single list, but it
occurs when Postfix receives six messages at once FROM the lists-all
list. Also your deliveries to to=<validuser1 at media-brokers.com> et al
are via the virtual transport which is apparently unaffected.


> Also the weirdness when a list member has their vacation enabled - they
> get the original list message, but the vacation message gets stuck in
> the queue with the error.


Another case of multiple messages to be handled by the local transport.


> I'm thinking of trying to reinstalling (this is gentoo, so that will be
> easy) first mailman, then postfix... I'll probably try that tomorrow if
> no other solution presents itself.


If you reinstall Mailman without touching Postfix and that fixes this,
I'll be incredibly surprised.

All the evidence you've presented together with everything I know says
this is a Postfix issue, not a Mailman issue. If I knew Postfix as well
as I know Mailman, I could probably tell you how to fix this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sun Jun  9 14:49:01 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2013 08:49:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B3BA8A.20906@msapiro.net>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B367D3.3060500@msapiro.net>
	<51B370B9.4010200@msapiro.net> <51B3A041.9030303@libertytrek.org>
	<51B3A5C4.5020509@msapiro.net>
	<51B3ABED.3010902@libertytrek.org> <51B3BA8A.20906@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51B479BD.4030203@libertytrek.org>

On 2013-06-08 7:13 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> So, the doesn't occur with a single message to a single list, but it
> occurs when Postfix receives six messages at once FROM the lists-all
> list. Also your deliveries to to=<validuser1 at media-brokers.com> et al
> are via the virtual transport which is apparently unaffected.

Hmm, so when a list only contains other lists as members, those will use 
postfix's local transport, but when the members are individuals (for 
final delivery), it uses virtual. Ok, that makes sense then.

>> Also the weirdness when a list member has their vacation enabled - they
>> get the original list message, but the vacation message gets stuck in
>> the queue with the error.

> Another case of multiple messages to be handled by the local transport.

Ok, yeah, I think you've nailed it... the problem is when more than one 
message at a time is passed to postfix/local...

>> I'm thinking of trying to reinstalling (this is gentoo, so that will be
>> easy) first mailman, then postfix... I'll probably try that tomorrow if
>> no other solution presents itself.

> If you reinstall Mailman without touching Postfix and that fixes this,
> I'll be incredibly surprised.

I think you're right, I'll do postfix first.

> All the evidence you've presented together with everything I know says
> this is a Postfix issue, not a Mailman issue. If I knew Postfix as well
> as I know Mailman, I could probably tell you how to fix this.

Wish I did... I did get a comment from Victor on the postfix list to 
check all of my aliases, so I ran newaliases but that didn't help. Is 
there anything else I can do to test the mailman aliases? Since the 
individual lists work - confirmed because I sent the mass email I've 
been trying to send since this happened to each individual list that is 
a member of the lists-all list, and those all worked fine.

I agree with you that this seems to be a postfix problem, but is it 
possible that some kind of corruption in a userb could cause these 
warnings? To recap, they are:

The first one from postfix/master only shows up rarely - 11 times since 
I got the system back up, and within 5 or 10 minutes (but usually with 5 
or 10 seconds) of postfix being restarted:

postfix/master[6406]: warning: master_wakeup_timer_event: service 
tlsmgr(private/tlsmgr): Resource temporarily unavailable

Then these (only when I try to send to my lists-all list):

warning: connect to transport private/local: Resource temporarily 
unavailable
warning: connect to transport private/retry: Resource temporarily 
unavailable

I do have backups of my mysql userdb, as well as all others (mailman 
aliases/dbs, etc), so I can replace any of these from backups if it will 
fix the problem.

Thanks again for your time and help Mark...

Charles

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sun Jun  9 15:14:59 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2013 09:14:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B375ED.30504@sgeinc.com>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B31F24.8050703@qhpress.org>
	<51B32903.5000903@libertytrek.org>
	<51B34EB7.4030502@qhpress.org> <51B375ED.30504@sgeinc.com>
Message-ID: <51B47FD3.4080006@libertytrek.org>

Thanks for trying, but mailman is running fine.

Lists that have only real email addresses work fine.

Also, individual messages invoking postfix/local also work fine, (ie, 
emails sent from cron (8 from last night and this morning), etc)...

Mark has helped me narrow the problem down to whenever multiple messages 
are submitted to postfix/local simultaneously.

On 2013-06-08 2:20 PM, Richard Shetron <guest2 at sgeinc.com> wrote:
> I'd suggest trying "ps -auxww|grep mailman" to seem if any mailman
> processes are running, this assumes mailman runs as its own user id.
> Some installs use the username list or lists instead of mailman.
>
> If nothing show up then I'd check:
>
> 1)  /etc/postfix/*.cf and /etc/postfix/transport and diff them with an
> older copy to make sure they haven't changed.
>
> 2)  check /var/lib/mailman/qfiles/maildir
>      The actual location may depend on your version and installation
> options.
>      If mailman is NOT running then the cur subdir should be empty.
>      I've found mailman will not restart if there is anything in the
> directory cur.  I'd check the files, if any, in both new and cur and tmp
> just to see what's there.


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun  9 16:33:18 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2013 07:33:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello all - mailman down after power failure
 and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B479BD.4030203@libertytrek.org>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B367D3.3060500@msapiro.net>
	<51B370B9.4010200@msapiro.net> <51B3A041.9030303@libertytrek.org>
	<51B3A5C4.5020509@msapiro.net>
	<51B3ABED.3010902@libertytrek.org> <51B3BA8A.20906@msapiro.net>
	<51B479BD.4030203@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <51B4922E.8060807@msapiro.net>

On 06/09/2013 05:49 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
> Wish I did... I did get a comment from Victor on the postfix list to
> check all of my aliases, so I ran newaliases but that didn't help. Is
> there anything else I can do to test the mailman aliases?


I thought about aliases, but aliases are only consulted by the local
transport, and the issue is in passing the message to the local
transport (and also the retry transport and the vacation transport).
Thus, I don't think aliases could be involved.

However, if aliases were involved, the thing to run is Mailman's
bin/genaliases, but we know aliases are not the problem, both from the
above and the fact that the lists all work 'one at a time'

There is definitely some resource contention issue when Postfix is
trying to access the same socket for multiple messages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sun Jun  9 22:20:25 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2013 16:20:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] SOLVED - Re: Hello all - mailman down after power
 failure and hard shutdown
In-Reply-To: <51B4922E.8060807@msapiro.net>
References: <51B30ABB.6000707@libertytrek.org> <51B367D3.3060500@msapiro.net>
	<51B370B9.4010200@msapiro.net> <51B3A041.9030303@libertytrek.org>
	<51B3A5C4.5020509@msapiro.net>
	<51B3ABED.3010902@libertytrek.org> <51B3BA8A.20906@msapiro.net>
	<51B479BD.4030203@libertytrek.org> <51B4922E.8060807@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51B4E389.50304@libertytrek.org>

Ok, facepalm time...

I had forgotten that I had built a new kernel a few weeks ago, and 
changed it to the default - but hadn't properly tested it yet.

Reverting to the previous kernel resolved the problem.

I'm not sure what the heck I changed to cause this, but that'll sure 
tech me to never change the kernel boot default without proper testing.

Anyway, thanks for the assist and sorry for the noise.

Charles

On 2013-06-09 10:33 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> On 06/09/2013 05:49 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>>
>> Wish I did... I did get a comment from Victor on the postfix list to
>> check all of my aliases, so I ran newaliases but that didn't help. Is
>> there anything else I can do to test the mailman aliases?
>
>
> I thought about aliases, but aliases are only consulted by the local
> transport, and the issue is in passing the message to the local
> transport (and also the retry transport and the vacation transport).
> Thus, I don't think aliases could be involved.
>
> However, if aliases were involved, the thing to run is Mailman's
> bin/genaliases, but we know aliases are not the problem, both from the
> above and the fact that the lists all work 'one at a time'
>
> There is definitely some resource contention issue when Postfix is
> trying to access the same socket for multiple messages.
>


From jon.pipitone at utoronto.ca  Mon Jun 10 01:12:40 2013
From: jon.pipitone at utoronto.ca (jon pipitone)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 19:12:40 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Web UI command-line tool
Message-ID: <CAKS_KeqFfvrauHNBe1Ktc8UcQGrhPuVCpU79iz6sjLx9b+TOLg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I've put together a very basic command line tool for Mailman which can
list, add, or delete members from lists via the mailman web interface:

https://github.com/pipitone/mailman-console

I needed this because the shared server I host my projects on does not
allow access to the built-in command-line tools, and I couldn't find
anything existing which did the trick.

I'm announcing it here in case any of you can make use of it, or perhaps
point me to something I've overlooked.  If you end up using it, let me know
(because I'm curious!), and feel free to send any pull-requests my way if
you have 'em.

Thanks everyone!
Jon.

From Adrian.ORiordan at analog.com  Mon Jun 10 10:10:51 2013
From: Adrian.ORiordan at analog.com (ORiordan, Adrian)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 08:10:51 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List Owner Confirmation Link
	on	Subscribe/Unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <51B243CF.9040400@msapiro.net>
References: <C977B19F2D7FCE4D8CF8DD6434064493875416@NWD2MBX6.ad.analog.com>
	<51B243CF.9040400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <C977B19F2D7FCE4D8CF8DD6434064493875A9A@NWD2MBX6.ad.analog.com>

Thanks for the reply Mark.

I'm going to look into some alternatives using LDAP or AD to authenticate. This system will be used on an internal subnet so there are various authentication mechanisms already in place which I can utilize. Adding extra passwords for lists and users, in my experience, confuses the situation. Unless a system is easy to use, most user's will abandon it. I'll report back with a solution if I find one,

Regards,

Adrian O' Riordan
CAD/Engineering IS System Admin
Ext : 4451
Email:? adrian.oriordan at analog.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+adrian.oriordan=analog.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
Sent: 07 June 2013 21:34
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] List Owner Confirmation Link on Subscribe/Unsubscribe

On 06/07/2013 03:38 AM, ORiordan, Adrian wrote:
> 
> One of the neat features of Mailman I like is the confirmation link 
> which is sent to a user upon subscribing (when the maillist is set to 
> confirm). Is it possible to add this feature for when the list owner 
> is notified for subscriptions/subscriptions? So instead of the usual 
> admin link, there's a confirm url which doesn't require a user logging 
> in with the list administrator password?


This would be somewhat complex to do as currently unlike for a subscription request waiting confirmation from the user, there is no entry in the list's pending database and thus no confirmation token for a subscription request waiting admin approval. Not only that, but there is currently no pending record type for a subscription request waiting admin approval.

All these things would have to be addressed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/adrian.oriordan%40analog.com



From Jan.Lausch at gmx.de  Mon Jun 10 11:54:47 2013
From: Jan.Lausch at gmx.de (Jan Lausch)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:54:47 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM3
In-Reply-To: <87ehce9xqb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <1370486996.3070.YahooMailClassic@web121704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<51B00780.1070007@msapiro.net>
	<trinity-872a185e-b5f2-43e6-85c4-be13c5305d0b-1370523151792@3capp-gmx-bs64>,
	<87ehce9xqb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <trinity-26f4aefb-2d33-4c3f-9c2b-1abe7e0a451f-1370858087010@3capp-gmx-bs17>

Dear all,
??
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Yeah, this is a problem. There's been a lot of water flowed under
> that bridge since then, but you can only see it if you look at the
> source trees (I mean the NEWS files, not the .py files :-).


Thanks for getting me up to speed.
I am looking forward to the final thing and I think I just might give the beta a try this summer on a staging machine...
And thank you for putting your free time into MM! You guys are great!

Best regards,
Jan

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Mon Jun 10 19:17:39 2013
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 17:17:39 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reducing Mailman backscatter
Message-ID: <B8CADA170D95C341BD48A77C0D610D98384DB756@SHA-EX10-MBX06.exchange.simply.ms>

Hi,

I am getting seriously hounded by my server provider, who is receiving complaints from ISPs that my server running Mailman is sending users spam messages.  When looking into this further, I notice that these messages are mainly administrivia responses, and that all of them mostly come from non-list members.

Does anyone know any way of discarding messages to specific addresses (mainly requests addresses) where the member is not on the list?  Obviously the subscription addresses I would like to leave as is for the moment.

I have also set all the moderation settings to discard for non-members as well to see this this improves matters.

Thanks.
Andrew.

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 11 01:54:35 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 16:54:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reducing Mailman backscatter
In-Reply-To: <B8CADA170D95C341BD48A77C0D610D98384DB756@SHA-EX10-MBX06.exchange.simply.ms>
References: <B8CADA170D95C341BD48A77C0D610D98384DB756@SHA-EX10-MBX06.exchange.simply.ms>
Message-ID: <51B6673B.2060302@msapiro.net>

On 06/10/2013 10:17 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am getting seriously hounded by my server provider, who is receiving complaints from ISPs that my server running Mailman is sending users spam messages.  When looking into this further, I notice that these messages are mainly administrivia responses, and that all of them mostly come from non-list members.
> 
> Does anyone know any way of discarding messages to specific addresses (mainly requests addresses) where the member is not on the list?  Obviously the subscription addresses I would like to leave as is for the moment.


I would probably do this by editing Mailmamn/Queue/CommandRunner.py
along the lines of

--- /var/MM/2.1/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py	2013-05-20
08:12:33.000000000 -0700
+++ CommandRunner.py	2013-06-10 16:45:42.774899892 -0700
@@ -115,6 +115,10 @@
             if line and line.strip():
                 args = line.split()
                 cmd = args.pop(0).lower()
+                if cmd not in ('join', 'subscribe'):
+                    if not self.mlist.isMember(self.msg.get_sender()):
+                        self.respond = False
+                        break
                 ret = self.do_command(cmd, args)
                 if ret == STOP or ret == CONTINUE:
                     found = ret


> I have also set all the moderation settings to discard for non-members as well to see this this improves matters.


That will help, and also be sure to set respond_to_post_requests to No
on the General Options admin page.

Also, if your Mailman is 2.1.15 (or newer), you can set

RESPONSE_INCLUDE_LEVEL = 0

in mm_cfg.py.

# This controls how much of the original message is included in automatic
# responses to email commands.  The values are:
# 0 - Do not include any unprocessed or ignored commands.  Do not include
#     the original message.
# 1 - Do not include any unprocessed or ignored commands.  Include only the
#     headers from the original message.
# 2 - Include unprocessed and ignored commands.  Include the complete
original
#     message.
#

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From ninux at live.com  Wed Jun 12 10:52:09 2013
From: ninux at live.com (NinuxLive)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 10:52:09 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Partial non-delivery
In-Reply-To: <51B83627.8060403@vessella.it>
References: <51B83627.8060403@vessella.it>
Message-ID: <51B836B9.7030408@live.com>


	
	
	

	
	
	

	
	
	

	
	
	

	
	
	



Hi,

I'm using MailMan (version 2.1.9) through Plesk with about 5000 members.

Some members (not gmail or hotmail subscribers) are claiming that they
are not receiving the mail, and I, the administrator, don't receive any
bounce notification.

I've seached in the archive but the answers I've found suppose I have
access to the server. Unfortunately I don't have!

Can you help me?

Thanks,
Nino

-- 
IL GALATEO PERDUTO DELLE EMAIL: http://www.vessella.it/galateo.htm

http://www.vessella.it (italiano, esperanto, kiswahili, english)
http://www.changamano.org (Iniziative di solidariet? per la Tanzania)
http://www.lernado.it (Articoli di quotidiani della Tanzania, Corso di lingua swahili, Corso di lingua esperanto, Vocabolario esperanto-italiano, Jifunze lugha ya Kiesperanto, Kamusi ya Kiesperanto)

Qualsiasi utilizzo non autorizzato del presente messaggio e dei suoi allegati ? vietato e potrebbe costituire reato, come dice il Garante per la protezione dei dati personali, "inviare e-mail pubblicitarie senza il consenso del destinatario ? vietato dalla legge. Se questa attivit?, specie se sistematica, ? effettuata a fini di profitto si viola anche una norma penale e il fatto pu? essere denunciato all'autorit? giudiziaria. Sono previste varie sanzioni e, nei casi pi? gravi, la reclusione."

Opinioni, conclusioni o altre informazioni riportate nel messaggio potrebbero essere dovute a modifiche non autorizzate o danneggiamenti e il mittente non se ne assume alcuna responsabilit?.




From Peter at Look.Net  Wed Jun 12 00:05:58 2013
From: Peter at Look.Net (Peter Weyland)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 18:05:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman support needed
Message-ID: <91D1189E-25C1-411C-8154-74C252190C11@Look.Net>

I would like to contract with someone to support approximately 500 MM clients.

-Peter Weyland
703-300-7980

From patrick at mkii.org  Wed Jun 12 01:04:23 2013
From: patrick at mkii.org (Patrick Barrett)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 18:04:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 403 Errors with nginx and fcgiwrap
Message-ID: <51B7ACF7.1040102@mkii.org>

I'm trying to setup mailman with nginx and fcgiwrap, but I'm getting 403 
errors, well a page that is blank except for the number 403. I can 
access some pages. I can see the listinfo page, the admin page, the 
createlist page, and I can even create lists. But, I get the 403's when 
I go to listinfo/<listname> and the like.

This seems to be an almost identical problem to 
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg57843.html but I 
have all the items in my config that that thread says needs to be there.

Here is my nginx config: http://pastebin.com/G5A87tEw

Also, check_perms comes back with no problems found. (But it did have to 
fix quite a few first and I even had to manually fix a few symlinks that 
it wouldn't fix.)

Thanks

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 12 16:47:54 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 07:47:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 403 Errors with nginx and fcgiwrap
In-Reply-To: <51B7ACF7.1040102@mkii.org>
References: <51B7ACF7.1040102@mkii.org>
Message-ID: <51B88A1A.6070501@msapiro.net>

On 06/11/2013 04:04 PM, Patrick Barrett wrote:
> I'm trying to setup mailman with nginx and fcgiwrap, but I'm getting 403
> errors, well a page that is blank except for the number 403. I can
> access some pages. I can see the listinfo page, the admin page, the
> createlist page, and I can even create lists. But, I get the 403's when
> I go to listinfo/<listname> and the like.


There is nothing in Mailman itself that sends a 403 status. What's in
your web server logs?


> This seems to be an almost identical problem to
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg57843.html but I
> have all the items in my config that that thread says needs to be there.


Except the problem there is the Mailman CGI was actually invoked but not
given all the needed info in the environment. Your problem seems to be
that the web server doesn't even run the CGI script but gives a 403 instead.


> Here is my nginx config: http://pastebin.com/G5A87tEw


which means nothing to me :(


> Also, check_perms comes back with no problems found. (But it did have to
> fix quite a few first and I even had to manually fix a few symlinks that
> it wouldn't fix.)


check_perms has problems with symlinks, but normally these are just
reporting errors as it looks at the permissions on the symlink itself,
but with -f, actually fixes the target. However, this is only an issue
with downstream packages as standard GNU Mailman doesn't install
symlinks other than those in archives/public/.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 12 16:56:58 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 07:56:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Partial non-delivery
In-Reply-To: <51B836B9.7030408@live.com>
References: <51B83627.8060403@vessella.it> <51B836B9.7030408@live.com>
Message-ID: <51B88C3A.3060105@msapiro.net>

On 06/12/2013 01:52 AM, NinuxLive wrote:

> 
> I'm using MailMan (version 2.1.9) through Plesk with about 5000 members.


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/tIA9>.


> Some members (not gmail or hotmail subscribers) are claiming that they
> are not receiving the mail, and I, the administrator, don't receive any
> bounce notification.


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4oA9>. That's the best you can do.


> I've seached in the archive but the answers I've found suppose I have
> access to the server. Unfortunately I don't have!


If you can't enlist the help and support of your hosting provider,
there's not much you can do beyond asking the affected users to
'whitelist' the LISTNAME-bounces at ... address with their ISPs (by adding
it to their web mail address books or whatever is required).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 12 16:59:47 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 07:59:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman support needed
In-Reply-To: <91D1189E-25C1-411C-8154-74C252190C11@Look.Net>
References: <91D1189E-25C1-411C-8154-74C252190C11@Look.Net>
Message-ID: <51B88CE3.4080005@msapiro.net>

On 06/11/2013 03:05 PM, Peter Weyland wrote:
> I would like to contract with someone to support approximately 500 MM clients.


If you get no other response, see <http://wiki.list.org/x/UIBE>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From patrick at mkii.org  Wed Jun 12 17:52:41 2013
From: patrick at mkii.org (Patrick Barrett)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 10:52:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 403 Errors with nginx and fcgiwrap
In-Reply-To: <51B88A1A.6070501@msapiro.net>
References: <51B7ACF7.1040102@mkii.org> <51B88A1A.6070501@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51B89949.2040906@mkii.org>

On 06/12/2013 09:47 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 06/11/2013 04:04 PM, Patrick Barrett wrote:
>> I'm trying to setup mailman with nginx and fcgiwrap, but I'm getting 403
>> errors, well a page that is blank except for the number 403. I can
>> access some pages. I can see the listinfo page, the admin page, the
>> createlist page, and I can even create lists. But, I get the 403's when
>> I go to listinfo/<listname> and the like.
>
> There is nothing in Mailman itself that sends a 403 status. What's in
> your web server logs?
>
>
>> This seems to be an almost identical problem to
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg57843.html but I
>> have all the items in my config that that thread says needs to be there.
>
> Except the problem there is the Mailman CGI was actually invoked but not
> given all the needed info in the environment. Your problem seems to be
> that the web server doesn't even run the CGI script but gives a 403 instead.
Wouldn't the CGI have to be getting invoked for me to be able to 
successfully be able to create new lists?

The log comes back with:
2013/06/12 10:36:19 [error] 6020#0: *347 FastCGI sent in stderr: "Cannot 
chdir to script directory (/usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo)" while 
reading response header from upstream, client: <myip>, server: 
lists.example.org, request: "GET /mailman/listinfo/listname HTTP/1.1", 
upstream: "fastcgi://unix:/var/run/fcgiwrap.socket:", host: 
"lists.example.org", referrer: "https://lists.example.org/mailman/listinfo"

That sounds to me like it's trying to cd into the executable. Just in 
case I'm wrong this is the directory's permissions:
patrick at helium:/usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman$ ls -ld
drwxr-xr-x 2 root list 4096 Jun 11 20:42 .


From patrick at mkii.org  Wed Jun 12 18:38:50 2013
From: patrick at mkii.org (Patrick Barrett)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 11:38:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 403 Errors with nginx and fcgiwrap
In-Reply-To: <51B89949.2040906@mkii.org>
References: <51B7ACF7.1040102@mkii.org> <51B88A1A.6070501@msapiro.net>
	<51B89949.2040906@mkii.org>
Message-ID: <51B8A41A.8080205@mkii.org>

Ok, I found the issue thanks to this thread on the nginx list: 
http://mailman.nginx.org/pipermail/nginx/2012-June/034205.html

tl;dr: Comment out the 'SCRIPT_FILENAME' line in /etc/nginx/fastcgi_params

Thanks for putting me on the right trail Mark.

From mneedham at hdfgroup.org  Wed Jun 12 21:10:32 2013
From: mneedham at hdfgroup.org (Matthew Needham)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 14:10:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] fixing a "reordered" archive
Message-ID: <EEA42F82-2E01-424F-8FEC-0A748F9E0597@hdfgroup.org>

A couple of weeks ago I moved all of my mailing lists to a new subdomain. So far, everything has worked great, but I've now discovered that the archive message numbering has changed. For example, I'm referring to the numbers "006782" at the end of a URL like http://lists.hdfgroup.org/pipermail/hdf-forum_lists.hdfgroup.org/2013-May/006782.html.

I believe that this happened because after the list was first created in mailman (in 2009), older archives were added using "arch <listname> <older.mbox>. My hypothesis is that if I were able to separate the current mbox into the messages that existed before older.mbox was archived, and those that were added afterwards, I could then rebuild the archive in the original order so that the message numbering would be preserved.

As best as I can tell, there's no way for me to determine which messages were in the archive before older.mbox was added. Is there a way? 

Alternatively, is these a better way to preserve all of the links that are now sitting in Google, various third party archives, sundry word documents, and user mailboxes?

Or is this a fool's errand I should abandon posthaste?

In case it helps, before migrating the lists I made tarballs of everything, so I still have access to the archives before they were rebuilt.


Thanks.

-- 

Matthew Needham

The HDF Group
1800 South Oak Street, Suite 203
Champaign, IL 61820
 
217-531-6110
mneedham at hdfgroup.org


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 13 01:09:18 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 16:09:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] fixing a "reordered" archive
In-Reply-To: <EEA42F82-2E01-424F-8FEC-0A748F9E0597@hdfgroup.org>
References: <EEA42F82-2E01-424F-8FEC-0A748F9E0597@hdfgroup.org>
Message-ID: <51B8FF9E.7070901@msapiro.net>

On 06/12/2013 12:10 PM, Matthew Needham wrote:
> A couple of weeks ago I moved all of my mailing lists to a new subdomain. So far, everything has worked great, but I've now discovered that the archive message numbering has changed. For example, I'm referring to the numbers "006782" at the end of a URL like http://lists.hdfgroup.org/pipermail/hdf-forum_lists.hdfgroup.org/2013-May/006782.html.


So you rebuilt the archive with bin/arch --wipe and the messages in the
input mbox were not in the same sequence in which they were added to the
original archive. The number in the nnnnnn.html file name is the
sequence number of when it was added.


> I believe that this happened because after the list was first created in mailman (in 2009), older archives were added using "arch <listname> <older.mbox>. My hypothesis is that if I were able to separate the current mbox into the messages that existed before older.mbox was archived, and those that were added afterwards, I could then rebuild the archive in the original order so that the message numbering would be preserved.


Yes. You should actually reorder the .mbox into the initial archived
messages followed by the older.mbox messages followed by the messages
after older.mbox was added. Then rebuild with bin/arch --wipe to get the
original sequence, and since the single .mbox is now in the sequence you
want, the problem is avoided in the future.


> As best as I can tell, there's no way for me to determine which messages were in the archive before older.mbox was added. Is there a way? 


If you still have the old archive (maybe on a backup), the first message
in that archive from older.mbox has number nnnnnn. Message nnnnnn-1 is
the last of the messages that were in the archive when older.mbox was added.


> Alternatively, is these a better way to preserve all of the links that are now sitting in Google, various third party archives, sundry word documents, and user mailboxes?


No.


> Or is this a fool's errand I should abandon posthaste?


Perhaps.


> In case it helps, before migrating the lists I made tarballs of everything, so I still have access to the archives before they were rebuilt.


Then you have the means to determine the breakpoint so it should be doable.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Brett at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Thu Jun 13 06:36:59 2013
From: Brett at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (Brett Delmage)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 00:36:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem listing full member names with diacritics
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1306130019540.22154@pannier.local>

Hi.

checked through the 65,397 list messages in my mail archives first, but 
didn't see anything obvious for this.

on ubuntu MM 1:2.1.14-3 I'm trying to export subscribers at the command 
line with full names

"list_members -f mylistname"

Characters with diacritics in subscriber names are coming out as "?".
These same characters names look fine on the web "Membership Management... 
Section",  which the HTML header reported as UTF-8.

My console is UTF-8: ( LANG=en_CA.UTF-8 )

I tried piping list_members through iconv for an 8859-1 conversion to 
UTF-8, in case that's how they were stored. Not sure if I used it right, 
but the characters were still messed up.

I tried the Jim Tittsler script to fetch names from web, but it crashes 
with an exception:
...
  File "./getnames", line 234, in handle_starttag
     'iso-8859-1', 'replace')
UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 4: 
ordinal not in range(128)


I don't know what to try next. Thanks.

Brett


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 13 07:42:21 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 22:42:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem listing full member names with
	diacritics
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1306130019540.22154@pannier.local>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1306130019540.22154@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <51B95BBD.5020000@msapiro.net>

On 06/12/2013 09:36 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
> 
> Characters with diacritics in subscriber names are coming out as "?".


bin/list_members uses the encoding returned by Python's
sys.getdefaultencoding() which is 'ascii' so all non-ascii characters
get converted to '?'

You have a couple of choices:

1) You can edit bin/list_members and replace

ENC = sys.getdefaultencoding()

by

ENC = 'utf-8'

2) Edit /usr/lib/pythonv.v/site.py where v.v is your Python version.
Find the definition of setencoding() and change the4th line from

    encoding = "ascii" # Default value set by _PyUnicode_Init()

to
    encoding = "utf-8"

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From brett at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Thu Jun 13 09:05:06 2013
From: brett at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (Brett Delmage)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 03:05:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem listing full member names with
 diacritics
In-Reply-To: <51B95BBD.5020000@msapiro.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1306130019540.22154@pannier.local>
	<51B95BBD.5020000@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1306130255330.26848@pannier.local>

> On 06/12/2013 09:36 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
>>
>> Characters with diacritics in subscriber names are coming out as "?".

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>
> You have a couple of choices:
>
> 1) You can edit bin/list_members and replace
>
> ENC = sys.getdefaultencoding()
>
> by
>
> ENC = 'utf-8'

Fantastic. Thanks Mark! What a clear and prompt reply.

Now I can export the list susbscribers. Yay! (no - not leaving MM yet)

Mark, Your reply shows up as the 10,499th list posting since the first one 
I have in my mail folder from you on 2004 June 13 - Hmm, isn't that a 
coincidence. (I've been on this list since 2001).

That's a truly remarkable level of service to the Mailman community. 
Thank you for everything you've done for all of us and list users 
everywhere.

Brett





From G.Rappenecker at hs-offenburg.de  Thu Jun 13 12:51:16 2013
From: G.Rappenecker at hs-offenburg.de (Gerhard Rappenecker)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 12:51:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with plus-sign "+" in the list-name
Message-ID: <51B9C044020000DD00071966@gwia2.rz.hs-offenburg.de>

Hi all,

since upgrading to mailman 2.1.15 the following problem occurs:

When lists admins want to change the list parameters or member-list by the webinterface they receive:
"Error: The form lifetime has expired. (request forgery check)" and no change is done.

IMPORTANT: This error only happens when the list-name contains a plus-sign "+", like e+test at lists.myorg.com.

The other list functions are working fine.

Unfortunately we have got a lot of such lists and ist nearly unpossible to change all the list-names.

Can anybody help me?

best regards
Gerhard Rappenecker


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 13 16:29:51 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 07:29:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with plus-sign "+" in the list-name
In-Reply-To: <51B9C044020000DD00071966@gwia2.rz.hs-offenburg.de>
References: <51B9C044020000DD00071966@gwia2.rz.hs-offenburg.de>
Message-ID: <51B9D75F.9000904@msapiro.net>

On 06/13/2013 03:51 AM, Gerhard Rappenecker wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> since upgrading to mailman 2.1.15 the following problem occurs:
> 
> When lists admins want to change the list parameters or member-list by the webinterface they receive:
> "Error: The form lifetime has expired. (request forgery check)" and no change is done.
> 
> IMPORTANT: This error only happens when the list-name contains a plus-sign "+", like e+test at lists.myorg.com.


This is a bug in the new CSRF checking scheme introduced in 2.1.15. It
will take me a day or so to do a proper fix. In the mean time, you can
edit the Mailman/CSRFcheck.py module by adding immediately following the
lines

def csrf_check(mlist, token):
    """ check token by mailman cookie validation algorithm """

the line

    return True

which will effectively disable the check and return pre-2.1.15 behavior.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From G.Rappenecker at hs-offenburg.de  Thu Jun 13 16:56:21 2013
From: G.Rappenecker at hs-offenburg.de (Gerhard Rappenecker)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:56:21 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Antw: Re: Problem with plus-sign "+" in the
 list-name
In-Reply-To: <51B9D75F.9000904@msapiro.net>
References: <51B9C044020000DD00071966@gwia2.rz.hs-offenburg.de>
	<51B9D75F.9000904@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51B9F9B5020000DD000719A5@gwia2.rz.hs-offenburg.de>

Hi Mark,

the workaround works fine.

Thanks a lot for the great support.

Gerhard Rappenecker


>>>
> On 06/13/2013 03:51 AM, Gerhard Rappenecker wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> since upgrading to mailman 2.1.15 the following problem occurs:
>> 
>> When lists admins want to change the list parameters or member-list by the 
> webinterface they receive:
>> "Error: The form lifetime has expired. (request forgery check)" and no 
> change is done.
>> 
>> IMPORTANT: This error only happens when the list-name contains a plus-sign 
> "+", like e+test at lists.myorg.com.
> 
> 
> This is a bug in the new CSRF checking scheme introduced in 2.1.15. It
> will take me a day or so to do a proper fix. In the mean time, you can
> edit the Mailman/CSRFcheck.py module by adding immediately following the
> lines
> 
> def csrf_check(mlist, token):
>     """ check token by mailman cookie validation algorithm """
> 
> the line
> 
>     return True
> 
> which will effectively disable the check and return pre-2.1.15 behavior.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users 
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ 
> Unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/g.rappenecker%40hs-offen 
> burg.de


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun 14 03:00:59 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 18:00:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with plus-sign "+" in the list-name
In-Reply-To: <51B9F9B5020000DD000719A5@gwia2.rz.hs-offenburg.de>
References: <51B9C044020000DD00071966@gwia2.rz.hs-offenburg.de>
	<51B9D75F.9000904@msapiro.net>
	<51B9F9B5020000DD000719A5@gwia2.rz.hs-offenburg.de>
Message-ID: <51BA6B4B.4050404@msapiro.net>

On 06/13/2013 07:56 AM, Gerhard Rappenecker wrote:
> 
> the workaround works fine.


This is now reported at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1190802> and properly fixed at
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1392>.


> Thanks a lot for the great support.


We try. It's always good to hear our efforts are appreciated.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From phanh at canby.k12.or.us  Tue Jun 11 00:17:53 2013
From: phanh at canby.k12.or.us (Hung Phan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:17:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe queue resend to patron after the email
	was subscribed
Message-ID: <256A9D02-DA88-40EA-BFFB-82F6EB2BB40F@canby.k12.or.us>

Hello,

Previously, we set our mailing list to do 2-steps unsubscribe (email confirmation). We have a patron, who was unsubscribe from our mailing list on Mar 1st. The subscribe log has the entry (delete test at web-ster.com; email confirmed). On May 6th, the patron then received an email states that the unsubscribe didn't go through due to invalid confirmation string. We search the list and couldn't find the patron listed anymore. How do we check and clear pending queues so patrons wont receive these notices again? 

Thank you,


Here is the bounce email message:

The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your
original message.

- Results:
   Invalid confirmation string.  Note that confirmation strings expire
approximately 3 days after the initial subscription request.  If your
confirmation has expired, please try to re-submit your original request or
message.

- Unprocessed:
   RE: Your confirmation is required to leave the CSD_parents mailing list
   Remove from this mailing list plz.
   -----Original Message-----
   From:

csd_parents-confirm+64c6698239b5f1f3cc281ed426738364ff3e7bdd at mailman.canby.k
   12.or.us

[mailto:csd_parents-confirm+64c6698239b5f1f3cc281ed426738364ff3e7bdd at mailman
   .canby.k12.or.us] 
   Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 1:31 PM
   To: test at web-ster.com
   Subject: Your confirmation is required to leave the CSD_parents mailing
list
   Mailing list removal confirmation notice for mailing list CSD_parents
   We have received a request for the removal of your email address,
   "test at web-ster.com" from the csd_parents at mailman.canby.k12.or.us
   mailing list.  To confirm that you want to be removed from this mailing
   list, simply reply to this message, keeping the Subject:
   header intact.  Or visit this web page:

http://mailman.canby.k12.or.us/mailman/confirm/csd_parents/64c6698239b5f1f3c
   c281ed426738364ff3e7bdd

- Ignored:
   Or include the following line -- and only the following line -- in a
message
   to csd_parents-request at mailman.canby.k12.or.us:

       confirm 64c6698239b5f1f3cc281ed426738364ff3e7bdd

   Note that simply sending a `reply' to this message should work from most
   mail readers, since that usually leaves the Subject: line in the right
form
   (additional "Re:" text in the Subject: is okay).

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun 15 06:02:34 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 21:02:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe queue resend to patron after the
 email was subscribed
In-Reply-To: <256A9D02-DA88-40EA-BFFB-82F6EB2BB40F@canby.k12.or.us>
References: <256A9D02-DA88-40EA-BFFB-82F6EB2BB40F@canby.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <51BBE75A.4040806@msapiro.net>

On 06/10/2013 03:17 PM, Hung Phan wrote:
> 
> Previously, we set our mailing list to do 2-steps unsubscribe (email
> confirmation). We have a patron, who was unsubscribe from our mailing
> list on Mar 1st. The subscribe log has the entry (delete
> test at web-ster.com; email confirmed). On May 6th, the patron then
> received an email states that the unsubscribe didn't go through due
> to invalid confirmation string. We search the list and couldn't find
> the patron listed anymore. How do we check and clear pending queues
> so patrons wont receive these notices again?


Your patron requested unsubscribe and answered the confirmation on Mar 1
and was then removed from the list. Subsequently on May 6 the patron
replied again to the original May 1 confirmation email which was still
in his/her mailbox. This time the confirmation token had expired and
that was reported back to the patron.

Mailman didn't queue or resend anything.

Also, I'm sure it's not relevant to this issue, but your post to
mailman-users was stuck in a gmail server for over 4 days.

Received: by mail-pa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id bi5so1209161pad.4
	for <mailman-users at python.org>; Fri, 14 Jun 2013 20:32:15 -0700 (PDT)
[...]
Received: from [10.30.163.42] (host-198-236-7-20.canby.k12.or.us.
	[198.236.7.20])
	by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id nt6sm11806639pbb.4.2013.06.10.15.17.52
	for <mailman-users at python.org>
	(version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
	Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:17:53 -0700 (PDT)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Jun 15 07:54:35 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:54:35 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe queue resend to patron after the
 email was subscribed
In-Reply-To: <51BBE75A.4040806@msapiro.net>
References: <256A9D02-DA88-40EA-BFFB-82F6EB2BB40F@canby.k12.or.us>
	<51BBE75A.4040806@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87y5ab6hr8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > Your patron requested unsubscribe and answered the confirmation on Mar 1
 > and was then removed from the list. Subsequently on May 6 the patron
 > replied again to the original May 1 confirmation email which was still
 > in his/her mailbox. This time the confirmation token had expired and
 > that was reported back to the patron.

[Be careful, Mark.  It's true in my experience that in most cases like
this it's due to some action by the subscriber, but let's not start by
blaming the victim.]

As Mark explained, there is no need for administrative action, because
Mailman only sends these messages only in response to a mail being
received.  If the subscriber doesn't send another confirmation, there
shouldn't be any more responses.

While Mailman didn't queue or resend, there are several possibilities
for mail system failure outside of Mailman that could cause this.
It's not necessarily the case that the user sent more than one
response, and it's possible that the mail that triggered the response
was injected into the mail system months ago.  In that case, it could
recur, but it's a problem elsewhere in the mail system that you should
investigate; you may be losing mail.  You should be concerned, since
your post to mailman-users was also delayed unreasonably long.

In order to do more than speculate, we need to see the headers, not
the content, of the error mail received by the user.  Without looking
at those headers, the most we can say, as Mark said, is that
statistically the most likely explanation is that the user confirmed
twice.

Regards,

From ninux at live.com  Sat Jun 15 12:26:23 2013
From: ninux at live.com (NinuxLive)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:26:23 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Partial non-delivery
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15670.1371055162.3113.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.15670.1371055162.3113.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <51BC414F.4060100@live.com>

mailman-users-request at python.org ha scritto/skribis/ameandika/wrote, Il 
12/06/2013 18.39:
> Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Partial non-delivery

Thanks,
Nino

-- 
IL GALATEO PERDUTO DELLE EMAIL: http://www.vessella.it/galateo.htm

http://www.vessella.it (italiano, esperanto, kiswahili, english)
http://www.changamano.org (Iniziative di solidariet? per la Tanzania)
http://www.lernado.it (Articoli di quotidiani della Tanzania, Corso di lingua swahili, Corso di lingua esperanto, Vocabolario esperanto-italiano, Jifunze lugha ya Kiesperanto, Kamusi ya Kiesperanto)

Qualsiasi utilizzo non autorizzato del presente messaggio e dei suoi allegati ? vietato e potrebbe costituire reato, come dice il Garante per la protezione dei dati personali, "inviare e-mail pubblicitarie senza il consenso del destinatario ? vietato dalla legge. Se questa attivit?, specie se sistematica, ? effettuata a fini di profitto si viola anche una norma penale e il fatto pu? essere denunciato all'autorit? giudiziaria. Sono previste varie sanzioni e, nei casi pi? gravi, la reclusione."

Opinioni, conclusioni o altre informazioni riportate nel messaggio potrebbero essere dovute a modifiche non autorizzate o danneggiamenti e il mittente non se ne assume alcuna responsabilit?.


From perry at piermont.com  Sat Jun 15 17:09:40 2013
From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:09:40 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
	date?
Message-ID: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>

I run a heavy traffic list where all messages are moderated, and
conversations are long. I typically would prefer to see the queue of
messages awaiting moderation in time order, not alphabetically by
email address as happens by default.

I presume this is not possible in the existing code, but how hard
would it be to fix?

-- 
Perry E. Metzger		perry at piermont.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 16 17:48:38 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 08:48:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <51BDDE56.6060900@msapiro.net>

On 06/15/2013 08:09 AM, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> I run a heavy traffic list where all messages are moderated, and
> conversations are long. I typically would prefer to see the queue of
> messages awaiting moderation in time order, not alphabetically by
> email address as happens by default.
> 
> I presume this is not possible in the existing code, but how hard
> would it be to fix?


I don't think it would be too difficult. I have some thoughts on how to
do it. I'll post a follow up later when I have time to flesh it out.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Jan.Lausch at gmx.de  Mon Jun 17 10:58:59 2013
From: Jan.Lausch at gmx.de (Jan Lausch)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:58:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>

Deal all,
?
?>?I typically would prefer to see the queue of messages awaiting
> moderation in time order, not alphabetically by email address
> as happens by default.


I totally second that notion.
I have been thinking about this several times before, too.
Would indeed be a very useful addition.


Jan

From jfayre at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 15:07:29 2013
From: jfayre at gmail.com (Jason Fayre)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:07:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] IP blacklisted by at&t
Message-ID: <51BF0A11.2010200@gmail.com>

Hi,
This may not be strictly on-topic for this list, but I'm getting 
extremely frustrated and am  hoping someone can give me some ideas.
We moved our mailman server to a VPS with a new IP address.  After the 
move, our IP has been blacklisted by AT&T.  We had some DNS trouble 
initially, and this may be why.
I've submitted the form that at&t tells you to in order to get your IP 
removed from the blacklist.  I then get a response back saying that the 
IP is not blacklisted.  However, I've got recent bounce messages saying 
we are.  If I try and telnet to at&t's mail servers from the mailman 
server, I get rejected because of a blacklisted Ip.  The IP they are 
saying is blacklisted is the same one I submitted on there web form.
Does anyone have any strategies in dealing with at&t?  I would love... 
god forbid... to actually talk to someone in their postmaster team about 
this.
We host around 200 mailing lists for the National Federation of the 
Blind.  Some of the lists are fairly high traffic.  We are not sending 
out spam.
Any help or suggestions would be apreciated.


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Mon Jun 17 15:42:23 2013
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:42:23 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] IP blacklisted by at&t
In-Reply-To: <51BF0A11.2010200@gmail.com>
References: <51BF0A11.2010200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130617134223.GC3728@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 09:07:29AM -0400, Jason Fayre wrote:
> I've submitted the form that at&t tells you to in order to get your
> IP removed from the blacklist.  I then get a response back saying
> that the IP is not blacklisted.

Usually, there's a contact address to use here.

> However, I've got recent bounce
> messages saying we are.  If I try and telnet to at&t's mail servers
> from the mailman server, I get rejected because of a blacklisted Ip.
> The IP they are saying is blacklisted is the same one I submitted on
> there web form.
> Does anyone have any strategies in dealing with at&t?  I would
> love... god forbid... to actually talk to someone in their
> postmaster team about this.

Is that just on IPv4? In some cases, using IPv6 may work?

The short answer may be "their MXes, their rules"; finding someone
with a cluebat will often be the hardest part.

That does assume they've not outsourced the blacklisting side of
things, of course, when there's a further problem. It's probably worth
having a look at the reputation of the address block you're using;
https://grepular.com/projects/dnsblsearch.txt may be of interest/use.

> We host around 200 mailing lists for the National Federation of the
> Blind.  Some of the lists are fairly high traffic.

In a previous role, skipping email and using the telephone worked for
getting through to the right person/department.

Social media may work in your favo(u)r here? ask how you might get in
contact with postmaster@ via twitter/other channels. And perhaps use
your community's help, too.

(NANOG or MailOp may be better channels)

-- 
"There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make
 it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies and the other is to
 make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies." 
    -- Hoare

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 17 16:32:11 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 07:32:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>
Message-ID: <51BF1DEB.5000100@msapiro.net>

On 06/17/2013 01:58 AM, Jan Lausch wrote:
>  
>  > I typically would prefer to see the queue of messages awaiting
>> moderation in time order, not alphabetically by email address
>> as happens by default.
> 
> 
> I totally second that notion.
> I have been thinking about this several times before, too.
> Would indeed be a very useful addition.


OK. Since this may be more widely used, here's a question? The current
summary groups all the messages from a single sender into one 'box'. If
we sort the boxes[1] by time, should multiple messages from a single
address be in separate, time sorted boxes or should they still be
grouped in a single box, and if the latter should the boxes be time
sorted by oldest or newest in the box.

[1] A proper feature would redesign the boxes, but I'm not going there,
and I'm not going to think about checking in the multiple box case for
conflicting checkbox options applied to the same sender.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Jan.Lausch at gmx.de  Mon Jun 17 16:58:25 2013
From: Jan.Lausch at gmx.de (Jan Lausch)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 16:58:25 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <51BF1DEB.5000100@msapiro.net>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>,
	<51BF1DEB.5000100@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <trinity-470a59ca-5ac8-43de-ba25-38407c0c920b-1371481104960@3capp-gmx-bs26>

Dear Mark,
> should multiple messages from a single address be in separate, 
time sorted boxes [...]

Just my 2ct: keep it simple, no need to have many config options here: 
Just keep the "one box per sender"-idea, but sort the boxes by the time of the latest email from that sender.

And thus replace the old sorting order: 
"alphabetical" doesn't have any practical advantage (= someone missing the way it worked yet) in my eyes.

Use case "time-sorted" e.g.: find this one mail the user just sent a minute ago in a queue full of SPAM.


jan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Jun 17 17:58:40 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 00:58:40 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>
Message-ID: <87ip1c4tlb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jan Lausch writes:
 > Deal all,
 > ?
 > ?>?I typically would prefer to see the queue of messages awaiting
 > > moderation in time order, not alphabetically by email address
 > > as happens by default.
 > 
 > I totally second that notion.

Is it worth thinking about threading them?

From larry at qhpress.org  Mon Jun 17 17:38:39 2013
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 11:38:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <51BF1DEB.5000100@msapiro.net>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>
	<51BF1DEB.5000100@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51BF2D7F.8070203@qhpress.org>

My 2 cents for Mark Sapiro's question:

> OK. Since this may be more widely used, here's a question? The current
> summary groups all the messages from a single sender into one 'box'. If
> we sort the boxes[1] by time, should multiple messages from a single
> address be in separate, time sorted boxes or should they still be
> grouped in a single box, and if the latter should the boxes be time
> sorted by oldest or newest in the box.

The original post spoke of a list "where all messages are moderated, and 
conversations are long."  A moderator who is trying to track the 
progress of a long conversation (while perhaps moderating for civility) 
would probably want to see all messages in strict time order, oldest 
first, without grouping by author.  I would want it that way on my lists 
if they had enough traffic to make manual sorting tedious.

This could be especially important in cases where writers are sending 
off-list copies to each other, and thus sometimes replying to posts that 
haven't even reached the list in moderated form yet.  You don't want to 
make a moderation decision about a reply before deciding what to do 
about the post being replied to.

(And of course "time order" must handle time zones accurately, e.g. a 
message sent from London at 1:00 am Wednesday should precede one sent 
from New York at 10:00 pm Tuesday.  I mention this because I _think_ I 
remember running into a problem with this when archiving old messages 
from a pre-Mailman incarnation of a list.)

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org


From javad at irannopendar.com  Mon Jun 17 16:30:21 2013
From: javad at irannopendar.com (Javad Hoseini-Nopendar)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:00:21 +0430
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Emails with implicit address are trapped
Message-ID: <001f01ce6b67$3beffc30$0201a8c0@home3c459be30f>

Hello
I sometimes need to send an email to various mailing lists at a time. The 
owner of one of the  mailing lists asked me to put all the addresses in BCC, 
but when I put the address of my own mailing list in BCC, my email to the 
group does not go directly to the group, but it requires moderator's 
approval. I want the emails with implicit address to go directly to this 
mailing list. How can I do that?
Javad Hoseini


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 17 18:28:16 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:28:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Emails with implicit address are trapped
In-Reply-To: <001f01ce6b67$3beffc30$0201a8c0@home3c459be30f>
References: <001f01ce6b67$3beffc30$0201a8c0@home3c459be30f>
Message-ID: <51BF3920.8070607@msapiro.net>

On 06/17/2013 07:30 AM, Javad Hoseini-Nopendar wrote:
> I want the emails with implicit address to go directly to this 
> mailing list. How can I do that?


In the web admin interface set Privacy options... -> Recipient filters
-> require_explicit_destination to No.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mneedham at hdfgroup.org  Mon Jun 17 19:21:47 2013
From: mneedham at hdfgroup.org (Matthew Needham)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 12:21:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] fixing a "reordered" archive
In-Reply-To: <51B8FF9E.7070901@msapiro.net>
References: <EEA42F82-2E01-424F-8FEC-0A748F9E0597@hdfgroup.org>
	<51B8FF9E.7070901@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <D4B6D726-67BC-43CA-BE1E-72821E7F7364@hdfgroup.org>


On Jun 12, 2013, at 18:09 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

>> On 06/12/2013 12:10 PM, Matthew Needham wrote:
>> 
>> As best as I can tell, there's no way for me to determine which messages were in the archive before older.mbox was added. Is there a way? 
> 
> If you still have the old archive (maybe on a backup), the first message
> in that archive from older.mbox has number nnnnnn. Message nnnnnn-1 is
> the last of the messages that were in the archive when older.mbox was added.


It took a little while to figure out, but I believe I've gotten everything straightened out. It looks like my complication was the fact that cleararch had been run on my current version of older.mbox, but no when it was originally added to the archives. I found the original file and everything lines up. Thanks for getting me this far.

Older.mbox contains 1512 messages, five of which contain unescaped lines starting with "From ". What's the best way to escape those lines and preserve archive order? Is it as simple as escaping the line and adding an empty "From " immediately after the containing message?



-- 

Matthew Needham

The HDF Group
1800 South Oak Street, Suite 203
Champaign, IL 61820

217-531-6110
mneedham at hdfgroup.org

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 17 20:01:27 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 11:01:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] fixing a "reordered" archive
In-Reply-To: <D4B6D726-67BC-43CA-BE1E-72821E7F7364@hdfgroup.org>
References: <EEA42F82-2E01-424F-8FEC-0A748F9E0597@hdfgroup.org>
	<51B8FF9E.7070901@msapiro.net>
	<D4B6D726-67BC-43CA-BE1E-72821E7F7364@hdfgroup.org>
Message-ID: <51BF4EF7.9020107@msapiro.net>

On 06/17/2013 10:21 AM, Matthew Needham wrote:
> 
> Older.mbox contains 1512 messages, five of which contain unescaped lines starting with "From ". What's the best way to escape those lines and preserve archive order? Is it as simple as escaping the line and adding an empty "From " immediately after the containing message?


Yes, that should do it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Tue Jun 18 01:54:39 2013
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:54:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-470a59ca-5ac8-43de-ba25-38407c0c920b-1371481104960@3capp-gmx-bs26>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>,
	<51BF1DEB.5000100@msapiro.net>
	<trinity-470a59ca-5ac8-43de-ba25-38407c0c920b-1371481104960@3capp-gmx-bs26>
Message-ID: <51BFA1BF.8000005@Damon-Family.org>

On 6/17/13 10:58 AM, Jan Lausch wrote:
> Dear Mark,
>> should multiple messages from a single address be in separate, 
> time sorted boxes [...]
>
> Just my 2ct: keep it simple, no need to have many config options here: 
> Just keep the "one box per sender"-idea, but sort the boxes by the time of the latest email from that sender.
>
> And thus replace the old sorting order: 
> "alphabetical" doesn't have any practical advantage (= someone missing the way it worked yet) in my eyes.
>
> Use case "time-sorted" e.g.: find this one mail the user just sent a minute ago in a queue full of SPAM.
>
>
> jan
I will say that for a list I run, I find the alphabetical ordering
useful. I keep the last couple of months of notices normally sorted
alphabetically by subject (which makes it ). Scanning through that list
lets me see if someone has posted a number of similar messages and is
starting to "spam" the list with them, and the order of this scan
matches the order in the admin interface.

-- 
Richard Damon


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun 18 04:25:22 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:25:22 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <51BFA1BF.8000005@Damon-Family.org>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>
	<51BF1DEB.5000100@msapiro.net>
	<trinity-470a59ca-5ac8-43de-ba25-38407c0c920b-1371481104960@3capp-gmx-bs26>
	<51BFA1BF.8000005@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <87a9mo40kt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Richard Damon writes:

 > I will say that for a list I run, I find the alphabetical ordering
 > useful.

Indeed.  Ordering will be an option, and since this request is hardly
a FAQ (though I think it a pretty obviously worthwhile feature), I
suppose that the default will be the traditional alphabetical ordering.


From Jan.Lausch at gmx.de  Tue Jun 18 14:09:19 2013
From: Jan.Lausch at gmx.de (Jan Lausch)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:09:19 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <51BFA1BF.8000005@Damon-Family.org>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>,
	<51BF1DEB.5000100@msapiro.net>
	<trinity-470a59ca-5ac8-43de-ba25-38407c0c920b-1371481104960@3capp-gmx-bs26>,
	<51BFA1BF.8000005@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <trinity-b2166ec7-66b6-4ba9-b6fd-d26c353a3afc-1371557359157@3capp-gmx-bs23>


Plenty of people wrote:
> I will say that for a list I run, I find the alphabetical ordering
> useful.
?
All right, all right, I get it. :-)
I didn't want to bug anyone or take something away from you, I just thought alphabetical sorting wouldn't be used. Apparently I thought wrong. So then let's aggree that the optimal way would be to make this switchable.

jan

From mneedham at hdfgroup.org  Tue Jun 18 21:39:13 2013
From: mneedham at hdfgroup.org (Matthew Needham)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:39:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] fixing a "reordered" archive
In-Reply-To: <51BF4EF7.9020107@msapiro.net>
References: <EEA42F82-2E01-424F-8FEC-0A748F9E0597@hdfgroup.org>
	<51B8FF9E.7070901@msapiro.net>
	<D4B6D726-67BC-43CA-BE1E-72821E7F7364@hdfgroup.org>
	<51BF4EF7.9020107@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <00D546FF-DDED-4A32-9E72-71EFFDE7FD1C@hdfgroup.org>


On Jun 17, 2013, at 13:01 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 06/17/2013 10:21 AM, Matthew Needham wrote:
>> 
>> Older.mbox contains 1512 messages, five of which contain unescaped lines starting with "From ". What's the best way to escape those lines and preserve archive order? Is it as simple as escaping the line and adding an empty "From " immediately after the containing message?
> 
> 
> Yes, that should do it.


It did work, but I noticed that cleanarch complained about the new lines. I was a little concerned that a future admin would notice the warnings and "fix" them in a way that broke the archives, so I inserted lines like this:

	From nobody at hdfgroup.org Thu May 31 00:00:00 2007
	Date: Thu May 31 00:00:00 2007

That placed the five empty messages at the very beginning of the archives where they're least likely to bother anyone. This is better than the previous location at the end of the archives, and much better than the previous problem with missing content after the unescaped From. With these changes, a fixed, reordered, and consolidated mbox, and a readme file to inform any future admins, I hope this problem won't return.


Thanks for all your help.


-- 

Matthew Needham

The HDF Group
1800 South Oak Street, Suite 203
Champaign, IL 61820
 
217-531-6110
mneedham at hdfgroup.org


From perry at piermont.com  Wed Jun 19 06:45:33 2013
From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:45:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <51BF1DEB.5000100@msapiro.net>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<trinity-d756b2b7-f0c8-4f66-93ea-434227c8b015-1371459538848@3capp-gmx-bs55>
	<51BF1DEB.5000100@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20130619004533.2c992883@jabberwock.local>

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 07:32:11 -0700 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
wrote:
> On 06/17/2013 01:58 AM, Jan Lausch wrote:
> >  
> >  > I typically would prefer to see the queue of messages awaiting
> >> moderation in time order, not alphabetically by email address
> >> as happens by default.
> > 
> > 
> > I totally second that notion.
> > I have been thinking about this several times before, too.
> > Would indeed be a very useful addition.
> 
> 
> OK. Since this may be more widely used, here's a question? The
> current summary groups all the messages from a single sender into
> one 'box'. If we sort the boxes[1] by time, should multiple
> messages from a single address be in separate, time sorted boxes or
> should they still be grouped in a single box, and if the latter
> should the boxes be time sorted by oldest or newest in the box.

For my use, I want to be able to look at conversations in the order
that they're happening so I can cherry pick which portions of the
conversation to forward and which to reject. Seeing the messages
grouped by address doesn't help me so much. I can see wanting the
existing view sometimes, but when I want "sorted by time", I want
purely sorted by time so I can figure out what to forward and what
not to.

It is potentially possible that optionally sorting by subject and then
by time might be cool, but I really don't need that and sometimes it
might get annoying. Simplest is best for my use case.

Perry

> 
> [1] A proper feature would redesign the boxes, but I'm not going
> there, and I'm not going to think about checking in the multiple
> box case for conflicting checkbox options applied to the same
> sender.
> 



-- 
Perry E. Metzger		perry at piermont.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 20 00:02:30 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:02:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <51BDDE56.6060900@msapiro.net>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<51BDDE56.6060900@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51C22A76.2000907@msapiro.net>

On 06/16/2013 08:48 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 06/15/2013 08:09 AM, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
>> I run a heavy traffic list where all messages are moderated, and
>> conversations are long. I typically would prefer to see the queue of
>> messages awaiting moderation in time order, not alphabetically by
>> email address as happens by default.
> 
> I don't think it would be too difficult. I have some thoughts on how to
> do it. I'll post a follow up later when I have time to flesh it out.


Attached is a preliminary patch to Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py.

The patch includes a hard coded setting

SUMMARY = 1

which presents the held messages summary in time order. Setting

SUMMARY = 0

produces the current grouping by sender in sender sequence with the
additional guarantee that each sender's messages are listed in time
sequence within that sender's box.

My initial thought is that this will be a list setting, although it
could just be a button on the summary page to reorder the display, but
then there probably should be a 'default order' choice somewhere.

I didn't do group by sender but present the groups in time sequence. If
there is a large outcry for this, I'll consider it, but it leads to
option overload, i.e sorted by senders oldest or most recent.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 20 01:56:39 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:56:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <51C22A76.2000907@msapiro.net>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<51BDDE56.6060900@msapiro.net> <51C22A76.2000907@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51C24537.6020200@msapiro.net>

On 06/19/2013 03:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> Attached is a preliminary patch to Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py.


Sorry, the patch was removed by content filtering. It should make it
this time.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
--- 2.1/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py	2013-06-07 13:36:03.000000000 -0700
+++ 21/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py	2013-06-19 14:43:33.084164988 -0700
@@ -43,6 +43,11 @@
 EMPTYSTRING = ''
 NL = '\n'
 
+# Temp s/b mlist.admindb_summary
+# 0 -> grouped/sorted by sender
+# 1 -> ungrouped, sorted by time
+SUMMARY = 1
+
 # Set up i18n.  Until we know which list is being requested, we use the
 # server's default.
 _ = i18n._
@@ -53,13 +58,23 @@
 
 
 
-def helds_by_sender(mlist):
+def helds_by_skey(mlist):
     heldmsgs = mlist.GetHeldMessageIds()
-    bysender = {}
+    byskey = {}
     for id in heldmsgs:
+        ptime = mlist.GetRecord(id)[0]
         sender = mlist.GetRecord(id)[1]
-        bysender.setdefault(sender, []).append(id)
-    return bysender
+        if SUMMARY == 0:
+            skey = (0, sender)
+        else:
+            skey = (ptime, sender)
+        byskey.setdefault(skey, []).append((ptime, id))
+    # Sort groups by time
+    for k, v in byskey.items():
+        if len(v) > 1:
+            v.sort()
+            byskey[k] = v
+    return byskey
 
 
 def hacky_radio_buttons(btnname, labels, values, defaults, spacing=3):
@@ -404,8 +419,8 @@
 
 def show_helds_overview(mlist, form):
     # Sort the held messages by sender
-    bysender = helds_by_sender(mlist)
-    if not bysender:
+    byskey = helds_by_skey(mlist)
+    if not byskey:
         return 0
     form.AddItem('<hr>')
     form.AddItem(Center(Header(2, _('Held Messages'))))
@@ -413,9 +428,10 @@
     admindburl = mlist.GetScriptURL('admindb', absolute=1)
     table = Table(border=0)
     form.AddItem(table)
-    senders = bysender.keys()
-    senders.sort()
-    for sender in senders:
+    skeys = byskey.keys()
+    skeys.sort()
+    for skey in skeys:
+        sender = skey[1]
         qsender = quote_plus(sender)
         esender = Utils.websafe(sender)
         senderurl = admindburl + '?sender=' + qsender
@@ -499,7 +515,7 @@
         right.AddCellInfo(right.GetCurrentRowIndex(), 0, colspan=2)
         right.AddRow(['&nbsp;', '&nbsp;'])
         counter = 1
-        for id in bysender[sender]:
+        for ptime, id in byskey[skey]:
             info = mlist.GetRecord(id)
             ptime, sender, subject, reason, filename, msgdata = info
             # BAW: This is really the size of the message pickle, which should

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 20 23:57:28 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:57:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <51C24537.6020200@msapiro.net>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<51BDDE56.6060900@msapiro.net> <51C22A76.2000907@msapiro.net>
	<51C24537.6020200@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51C37AC8.1070605@msapiro.net>

On 06/19/2013 04:56 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 06/19/2013 03:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> Attached is a preliminary patch to Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py.
> 
> 
> Sorry, the patch was removed by content filtering. It should make it
> this time.


It would have been better if I hadn't posted that one. It had some bugs.

This one is a bit more thoroughly tested. It also has a set of radio
buttons to select the sequence which can be 'grouped and sorted by
sender', 'grouped by sender and sorted by time' or 'ungrouped and sorted
by time'.

Feedback on this would be appreciated.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
--- ../2.1/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py	2013-06-07 13:36:03.000000000 -0700
+++ Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py	2013-06-20 14:06:44.975035475 -0700
@@ -50,16 +50,35 @@
 
 EXCERPT_HEIGHT = 10
 EXCERPT_WIDTH = 76
+SSENDER = 0
+SSENDERTIME = 1
+STIME = 2
+ssort = SSENDER
 
 
 
-def helds_by_sender(mlist):
+def helds_by_skey(mlist, ssort=SSENDER):
     heldmsgs = mlist.GetHeldMessageIds()
-    bysender = {}
+    byskey = {}
     for id in heldmsgs:
+        ptime = mlist.GetRecord(id)[0]
         sender = mlist.GetRecord(id)[1]
-        bysender.setdefault(sender, []).append(id)
-    return bysender
+        if ssort in (SSENDER, SSENDERTIME):
+            skey = (0, sender)
+        else:
+            skey = (ptime, sender)
+        byskey.setdefault(skey, []).append((ptime, id))
+    # Sort groups by time
+    for k, v in byskey.items():
+        if len(v) > 1:
+            v.sort()
+            byskey[k] = v
+        if ssort == SSENDERTIME:
+            # Rekey with time
+            newkey = (v[0][0], k[1])
+            del byskey[k]
+            byskey[newkey] = v
+    return byskey
 
 
 def hacky_radio_buttons(btnname, labels, values, defaults, spacing=3):
@@ -76,6 +95,7 @@
 
 
 def main():
+    global ssort
     # Figure out which list is being requested
     parts = Utils.GetPathPieces()
     if not parts:
@@ -253,7 +273,7 @@
                                        raw=1, mlist=mlist))
             num = show_pending_subs(mlist, form)
             num += show_pending_unsubs(mlist, form)
-            num += show_helds_overview(mlist, form)
+            num += show_helds_overview(mlist, form, ssort)
             addform = num > 0
         # Finish up the document, adding buttons to the form
         if addform:
@@ -402,20 +422,28 @@
 
 
 
-def show_helds_overview(mlist, form):
-    # Sort the held messages by sender
-    bysender = helds_by_sender(mlist)
-    if not bysender:
+def show_helds_overview(mlist, form, ssort=SSENDER):
+    # Sort the held messages.
+    byskey = helds_by_skey(mlist, ssort)
+    if not byskey:
         return 0
     form.AddItem('<hr>')
     form.AddItem(Center(Header(2, _('Held Messages'))))
+    # Add the sort sequence choices
+    form.AddItem(Center(_('Show this list grouped/sorted by')))
+    form.AddItem(Center(hacky_radio_buttons(
+            'summary_sort',
+            (_('sender/sender'), _('sender/time'), _('ungrouped/time')),
+            (SSENDER, SSENDERTIME, STIME),
+            (ssort == SSENDER, ssort == SSENDERTIME, ssort == STIME))))
     # Add the by-sender overview tables
     admindburl = mlist.GetScriptURL('admindb', absolute=1)
     table = Table(border=0)
     form.AddItem(table)
-    senders = bysender.keys()
-    senders.sort()
-    for sender in senders:
+    skeys = byskey.keys()
+    skeys.sort()
+    for skey in skeys:
+        sender = skey[1]
         qsender = quote_plus(sender)
         esender = Utils.websafe(sender)
         senderurl = admindburl + '?sender=' + qsender
@@ -499,7 +527,7 @@
         right.AddCellInfo(right.GetCurrentRowIndex(), 0, colspan=2)
         right.AddRow(['&nbsp;', '&nbsp;'])
         counter = 1
-        for id in bysender[sender]:
+        for ptime, id in byskey[skey]:
             info = mlist.GetRecord(id)
             ptime, sender, subject, reason, filename, msgdata = info
             # BAW: This is really the size of the message pickle, which should
@@ -540,10 +568,10 @@
 
 
 def show_sender_requests(mlist, form, sender):
-    bysender = helds_by_sender(mlist)
-    if not bysender:
+    byskey = helds_by_skey(mlist, SSENDER)
+    if not byskey:
         return
-    sender_ids = bysender.get(sender)
+    sender_ids = [x[1] for x in byskey.get((0, sender))]
     if sender_ids is None:
         # BAW: should we print an error message?
         return
@@ -709,6 +737,7 @@
 
 
 def process_form(mlist, doc, cgidata):
+    global ssort
     senderactions = {}
     badaddrs = []
     # Sender-centric actions
@@ -730,6 +759,8 @@
         discardalldefersp = cgidata.getvalue('discardalldefersp', 0)
     except ValueError:
         discardalldefersp = 0
+    # Get the summary sequence
+    ssort = int(cgidata.getvalue('summary_sort', SSENDER))
     for sender in senderactions.keys():
         actions = senderactions[sender]
         # Handle what to do about all this sender's held messages
@@ -744,8 +775,8 @@
             preserve = actions.get('senderpreserve', 0)
             forward = actions.get('senderforward', 0)
             forwardaddr = actions.get('senderforwardto', '')
-            bysender = helds_by_sender(mlist)
-            for id in bysender.get(sender, []):
+            byskey = helds_by_skey(mlist, SSENDER)
+            for id in [x[1] for x in byskey.get((0, sender), [])]:
                 if id not in senderactions[sender]['message_ids']:
                     # It arrived after the page was displayed. Skip it.
                     continue

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun 21 00:23:22 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 15:23:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ordering of messages in the moderation queue by
 date?
In-Reply-To: <51C37AC8.1070605@msapiro.net>
References: <20130615110940.4841799d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
	<51BDDE56.6060900@msapiro.net> <51C22A76.2000907@msapiro.net>
	<51C24537.6020200@msapiro.net> <51C37AC8.1070605@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51C380DA.80101@msapiro.net>

On 06/20/2013 02:57 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> This one is a bit more thoroughly tested. It also has a set of radio
> buttons to select the sequence which can be 'grouped and sorted by
> sender', 'grouped by sender and sorted by time' or 'ungrouped and sorted
> by time'.
> 
> Feedback on this would be appreciated.


I noticed an issue that could have thrown an exception in some
"shouldn't happen" case. Here's a corrected patch.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
--- ../2.1/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py	2013-06-07 13:36:03.000000000 -0700
+++ Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py	2013-06-20 15:08:20.149358858 -0700
@@ -50,16 +50,35 @@
 
 EXCERPT_HEIGHT = 10
 EXCERPT_WIDTH = 76
+SSENDER = 0
+SSENDERTIME = 1
+STIME = 2
+ssort = SSENDER
 
 
 
-def helds_by_sender(mlist):
+def helds_by_skey(mlist, ssort=SSENDER):
     heldmsgs = mlist.GetHeldMessageIds()
-    bysender = {}
+    byskey = {}
     for id in heldmsgs:
+        ptime = mlist.GetRecord(id)[0]
         sender = mlist.GetRecord(id)[1]
-        bysender.setdefault(sender, []).append(id)
-    return bysender
+        if ssort in (SSENDER, SSENDERTIME):
+            skey = (0, sender)
+        else:
+            skey = (ptime, sender)
+        byskey.setdefault(skey, []).append((ptime, id))
+    # Sort groups by time
+    for k, v in byskey.items():
+        if len(v) > 1:
+            v.sort()
+            byskey[k] = v
+        if ssort == SSENDERTIME:
+            # Rekey with time
+            newkey = (v[0][0], k[1])
+            del byskey[k]
+            byskey[newkey] = v
+    return byskey
 
 
 def hacky_radio_buttons(btnname, labels, values, defaults, spacing=3):
@@ -76,6 +95,7 @@
 
 
 def main():
+    global ssort
     # Figure out which list is being requested
     parts = Utils.GetPathPieces()
     if not parts:
@@ -253,7 +273,7 @@
                                        raw=1, mlist=mlist))
             num = show_pending_subs(mlist, form)
             num += show_pending_unsubs(mlist, form)
-            num += show_helds_overview(mlist, form)
+            num += show_helds_overview(mlist, form, ssort)
             addform = num > 0
         # Finish up the document, adding buttons to the form
         if addform:
@@ -402,20 +422,28 @@
 
 
 
-def show_helds_overview(mlist, form):
-    # Sort the held messages by sender
-    bysender = helds_by_sender(mlist)
-    if not bysender:
+def show_helds_overview(mlist, form, ssort=SSENDER):
+    # Sort the held messages.
+    byskey = helds_by_skey(mlist, ssort)
+    if not byskey:
         return 0
     form.AddItem('<hr>')
     form.AddItem(Center(Header(2, _('Held Messages'))))
+    # Add the sort sequence choices
+    form.AddItem(Center(_('Show this list grouped/sorted by')))
+    form.AddItem(Center(hacky_radio_buttons(
+            'summary_sort',
+            (_('sender/sender'), _('sender/time'), _('ungrouped/time')),
+            (SSENDER, SSENDERTIME, STIME),
+            (ssort == SSENDER, ssort == SSENDERTIME, ssort == STIME))))
     # Add the by-sender overview tables
     admindburl = mlist.GetScriptURL('admindb', absolute=1)
     table = Table(border=0)
     form.AddItem(table)
-    senders = bysender.keys()
-    senders.sort()
-    for sender in senders:
+    skeys = byskey.keys()
+    skeys.sort()
+    for skey in skeys:
+        sender = skey[1]
         qsender = quote_plus(sender)
         esender = Utils.websafe(sender)
         senderurl = admindburl + '?sender=' + qsender
@@ -499,7 +527,7 @@
         right.AddCellInfo(right.GetCurrentRowIndex(), 0, colspan=2)
         right.AddRow(['&nbsp;', '&nbsp;'])
         counter = 1
-        for id in bysender[sender]:
+        for ptime, id in byskey[skey]:
             info = mlist.GetRecord(id)
             ptime, sender, subject, reason, filename, msgdata = info
             # BAW: This is really the size of the message pickle, which should
@@ -540,13 +568,14 @@
 
 
 def show_sender_requests(mlist, form, sender):
-    bysender = helds_by_sender(mlist)
-    if not bysender:
+    byskey = helds_by_skey(mlist, SSENDER)
+    if not byskey:
         return
-    sender_ids = bysender.get(sender)
+    sender_ids = byskey.get((0, sender))
     if sender_ids is None:
         # BAW: should we print an error message?
         return
+    sender_ids = [x[1] for x in sender_ids]
     total = len(sender_ids)
     count = 1
     for id in sender_ids:
@@ -709,6 +738,7 @@
 
 
 def process_form(mlist, doc, cgidata):
+    global ssort
     senderactions = {}
     badaddrs = []
     # Sender-centric actions
@@ -730,6 +760,8 @@
         discardalldefersp = cgidata.getvalue('discardalldefersp', 0)
     except ValueError:
         discardalldefersp = 0
+    # Get the summary sequence
+    ssort = int(cgidata.getvalue('summary_sort', SSENDER))
     for sender in senderactions.keys():
         actions = senderactions[sender]
         # Handle what to do about all this sender's held messages
@@ -744,8 +776,8 @@
             preserve = actions.get('senderpreserve', 0)
             forward = actions.get('senderforward', 0)
             forwardaddr = actions.get('senderforwardto', '')
-            bysender = helds_by_sender(mlist)
-            for id in bysender.get(sender, []):
+            byskey = helds_by_skey(mlist, SSENDER)
+            for ptime, id in byskey.get((0, sender), []):
                 if id not in senderactions[sender]['message_ids']:
                     # It arrived after the page was displayed. Skip it.
                     continue

From joemailgroups at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 05:28:02 2013
From: joemailgroups at gmail.com (Joe)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 20:28:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply e-mail options.
Message-ID: <6AFA5611-BCF6-40F4-A2BB-FA6630E91632@gmail.com>

Hello, everyone.

What setting do I need to change in order to have mail sent to Mailman lists show two e-mail addresses for reply ? I have been a member of other lists in the past and remember mail having the address of the list plus the address of the sender displayed. My own lists are only showing the address of the list for reply and the address of the sender does not appear. How can I change this behavior ?

Thanks,

Joe.

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 24 18:34:23 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 09:34:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply e-mail options.
In-Reply-To: <6AFA5611-BCF6-40F4-A2BB-FA6630E91632@gmail.com>
References: <6AFA5611-BCF6-40F4-A2BB-FA6630E91632@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51C8750F.6080608@msapiro.net>

On 06/23/2013 08:28 PM, Joe wrote:
> 
> What setting do I need to change in order to have mail sent to Mailman lists show two e-mail addresses for reply ? I have been a member of other lists in the past and remember mail having the address of the list plus the address of the sender displayed. My own lists are only showing the address of the list for reply and the address of the sender does not appear. How can I change this behavior ?


In the web admin interface on the General Options page under Reply-To:
header munging set first_strip_reply_to to No and reply_goes_to_list to
Poster.

With these settings, a simple 'reply' will go to the sender or the
sender's Reply-To; 'reply-all' will go to the sender, the list and any
other explicit recipients of the post, and 'reply-list' if your MUA
supports it will go to just the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From joemailgroups at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 21:24:36 2013
From: joemailgroups at gmail.com (Joe)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 12:24:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply e-mail options.
In-Reply-To: <51C8750F.6080608@msapiro.net>
References: <6AFA5611-BCF6-40F4-A2BB-FA6630E91632@gmail.com>
	<51C8750F.6080608@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <9FBDE0FB-F188-4B14-A329-3472BCE558B5@gmail.com>

Hi, Mark.

> In the web admin interface on the General Options page under Reply-To:
> header munging set first_strip_reply_to to No and reply_goes_to_list to
> Poster.
> 
> With these settings, a simple 'reply' will go to the sender or the
> sender's Reply-To; 'reply-all' will go to the sender, the list and any
> other explicit recipients of the post, and 'reply-list' if your MUA
> supports it will go to just the list.

Is it possible to do the opposite ?

I would like to have mail addressed to the list with a simple 'Reply' and addressed to both the list and the sender with a 'Reply All'.

Can Mailman be configured to behave this way ?

Thank you,

Joe.


On June 24, 2013, at 9:34 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 06/23/2013 08:28 PM, Joe wrote:
>> 
>> What setting do I need to change in order to have mail sent to Mailman lists show two e-mail addresses for reply ? I have been a member of other lists in the past and remember mail having the address of the list plus the address of the sender displayed. My own lists are only showing the address of the list for reply and the address of the sender does not appear. How can I change this behavior ?
> 
> 
> In the web admin interface on the General Options page under Reply-To:
> header munging set first_strip_reply_to to No and reply_goes_to_list to
> Poster.
> 
> With these settings, a simple 'reply' will go to the sender or the
> sender's Reply-To; 'reply-all' will go to the sender, the list and any
> other explicit recipients of the post, and 'reply-list' if your MUA
> supports it will go to just the list.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/joemailgroups%40gmail.com


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 24 21:53:11 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 12:53:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply e-mail options.
In-Reply-To: <9FBDE0FB-F188-4B14-A329-3472BCE558B5@gmail.com>
References: <6AFA5611-BCF6-40F4-A2BB-FA6630E91632@gmail.com>
	<51C8750F.6080608@msapiro.net>
	<9FBDE0FB-F188-4B14-A329-3472BCE558B5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51C8A3A7.9070306@msapiro.net>

On 06/24/2013 12:24 PM, Joe wrote:
> 
> I would like to have mail addressed to the list with a simple 'Reply' and addressed to both the list and the sender with a 'Reply All'.
> 
> Can Mailman be configured to behave this way ?


Not reliably. If you want a simple 'reply' to go to the list, you need
to set reply_goes_to_list to This list so that Mailman will put a
Reply-To: header with the list address in delivered messages. What
'reply-all' will do in this circumstance is MUA dependent. Some MUAs
will reply to the list address which is in both To: and Reply-To: and
the sender address in From:, but others will assume (correctly) that
Reply-To: overrides From: and not include the From: address in 'reply-all'

More importantly, with this configuration, there is no way to reply to
the sender only without editing the recipients when composing the reply.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jgao at veecall.com  Mon Jun 24 18:31:35 2013
From: jgao at veecall.com (J Gao)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 09:31:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] trouble to send out emails
Message-ID: <51C87467.6040301@veecall.com>

Hello,

I need some help here. I am building a new mail server to replace our 
old one. I installed postfix, courier, MailScanner on the Centos 6.4. 
The last I installed mailman v3 and I'm having trouble to make it work.

Our old email server has almost same setup, only that server is built 3 
years ago with mailman v2.

On the new server, I setup some mail list, and transfer subscriber 
account from our old server. The I test it sending a email to the list. 
Here is the maillog onthe new server:
------------------------------------
Jun 21 16:32:47 szeta postfix/smtpd[29323]: connect from 
localhost[127.0.0.1]
Jun 21 16:32:47 szeta postfix/smtpd[29323]: 7D76E825BA: 
client=localhost[127.0.0.1], sasl_method=LOGIN, 
sasl_username=jgao at my-domain.com
Jun 21 16:32:47 szeta postfix/cleanup[29334]: 7D76E825BA: hold: header 
Received: from szeta.my-domain.co (localhost [127.0.0.1])??by 
szeta.my-domain.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7D76E825BA??for 
<sjv-dev at my-domain.com>; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 16:32:47 -0700 (PDT) from 
localhost[127.0.0.1]; from=<jgao at my-domain.com> 
to=<sjv-dev at my-domain.com> proto=ESMTP helo=<szeta.my-domain.com>
Jun 21 16:32:47 szeta postfix/cleanup[29334]: 7D76E825BA: 
message-id=<446473f75a3499b515b007856debce2b at my-domain.com>
Jun 21 16:32:49 szeta MailScanner[29315]: New Batch: Scanning 1 
messages, 1277 bytes
Jun 21 16:32:49 szeta MailScanner[29315]: Virus and Content Scanning: 
Starting
Jun 21 16:32:50 szeta MailScanner[29315]: Spam Checks: Starting
Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta MailScanner[29315]: Requeue: 7D76E825BA.A7BE0 to 
7DAA4825BE
Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta MailScanner[29315]: Uninfected: Delivered 1 messages
Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta postfix/qmgr[29297]: 7DAA4825BE: 
from=<jgao at my-domain.com>, size=577, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta MailScanner[29315]: Deleted 1 messages from 
processing-database
Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta postfix/virtual[29352]: 7DAA4825BE: 
to=<sjv-dev at my-domain.com>, relay=virtual, delay=6.2, 
delays=6.1/0.06/0/0.08, dsn=5.1.1, status=bounced (unknown user: 
"sjv-dev at my-domain.com")
Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta postfix/cleanup[29334]: B3566825BB: 
message-id=<20130621233253.B3566825BB at szeta.my-domain.com>
Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta postfix/qmgr[29297]: B3566825BB: from=<>, 
size=2859, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta postfix/bounce[29354]: 7DAA4825BE: sender 
non-delivery notification: B3566825BB
Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta postfix/qmgr[29297]: 7DAA4825BE: removed
------------------------------------

I see here:
Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta *postfix/virtual*[29352]: 7DAA4825BE: 
to=<sjv-dev at my-domain.com>, relay=virtual, delay=6.2, 
delays=6.1/0.06/0/0.08, dsn=5.1.1, status=bounced (*unknown user: 
"sjv-dev at my-domain.com"*)

Then I got a auto response from mailman say the deliver is failed.


When I compare with the old server. I see it looks different when 
postfix relay the mail:
[root at zeta log]# grep 04CD480D3 maillog
Jun 21 10:00:05 zeta MailScanner[30548]: Requeue: B8C218070.A97C1 to 
04CD480D3
Jun 21 10:00:05 zeta postfix/qmgr[24123]: 04CD480D3: 
from=<jgao at my-domain.com>, size=1102, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Jun 21 10:00:06 zeta *postfix/local*[1633]: 04CD480D3: 
to=<sjv-dev at zeta.my-domain.com>, orig_to=<sjv-dev at my-domain.com>, 
relay=local, delay=4.6, delays=4.3/0.01/0/0.28, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent 
*(delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post *


===============================================
Here is some of the settings related: (I'm using virtual domain/users 
with mysql)


/etc/postfix/main.cf:
virtual_alias_maps = 
proxy:mysql:/etc/postfix/mysql-virtual_forwardings.cf, 
mysql:/etc/postfix/mysql-virtual_email2email.cf,mysql:/etc/postfix/mysql-virtual_aliases.cf

/etc/postfix/mysql-virtual_aliases.cf:
user = mail_admin
password = my_passwd
dbname = mail
query = SELECT forw_addr FROM mxaliases WHERE alias='%s'
hosts = 127.0.0.1

/etc/aliases:
  # STANZA START: sjv-dev
# CREATED: Wed Aug 11 09:10:34 2010
sjv-dev:             "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post sjv-dev"
sjv-dev-admin:       "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin sjv-dev"
sjv-dev-bounces:     "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces sjv-dev"
sjv-dev-confirm:     "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm sjv-dev"
sjv-dev-join:        "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join sjv-dev"
sjv-dev-leave:       "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave sjv-dev"
sjv-dev-owner:       "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner sjv-dev"
sjv-dev-request:     "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request sjv-dev"
sjv-dev-subscribe:   "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe sjv-dev"
sjv-dev-unsubscribe: "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe sjv-dev"
# STANZA END: sjv-dev

mysql> select * from mxaliases;
+---------------------------------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| alias                                       | 
forw_addr                                         |
+---------------------------------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| mailman at my-domain.com                    | 
mailman at szeta.my-domain.com                    |
| mailman-admin at my-domain.com              | 
mailman-admin at szeta.my-domain.com              |
| mailman-bounces at my-domain.com            | 
mailman-bounces at szeta.my-domain.com            |
| mailman-confirm at my-domain.com            | 
mailman-confirmt at szeta.my-domain.com           |
| mailman-join at my-domain.com               | 
mailman-join at szeta.my-domain.com               |
| mailman-leave at my-domain.com              | 
mailman-leave at szeta.my-domain.com              |
| mailman-owner at my-domain.com              | 
mailman-owner at szeta.my-domain.com              |
| mailman-request at my-domain.com            | 
mailman-request at szeta.my-domain.com            |
| mailman-subscribe at my-domain.com          | 
mailman-subscribe at szeta.my-domain.com          |
| mailman-unsubscribe at my-domain.com        | 
mailman-unsubscribe at szeta.my-domain.com        |
| sjv-dev at my-domain.com                    | 
sjv-dev at szeta.my-domain.com                    |
| sjv-dev-admin at my-domain.com              | 
sjv-dev-admin at szeta.my-domain.com              |
| sjv-dev-bounces at my-domain.com            | 
sjv-dev-bounces at szeta.my-domain.com            |
| sjv-dev-confirm at my-domain.com            | 
sjv-dev-confirmt at szeta.my-domain.com           |
| sjv-dev-join at my-domain.com               | 
sjv-dev-join at szeta.my-domain.com               |
| sjv-dev-leave at my-domain.com              | 
sjv-dev-leave at szeta.my-domain.com              |
| sjv-dev-owner at my-domain.com              | 
sjv-dev-owner at szeta.my-domain.com              |
| sjv-dev-request at my-domain.com            | 
sjv-dev-request at szeta.my-domain.com            |
| sjv-dev-subscribe at my-domain.com          | 
sjv-dev-subscribe at szeta.my-domain.com          |
| sjv-dev-unsubscribe at my-domain.com        | 
sjv-dev-unsubscribe at szeta.my-domain.com        |
+---------------------------------------------+---------------------------------------------------+


I'm not sure what cause the mail delivery failed. Please help.

Thanks a lot.

J Gao

-- 
      __
    _|==|_
     ('')__/
>--(`^^')
   (`^'^'`)
   `======'


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 25 00:36:55 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 15:36:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] trouble to send out emails
In-Reply-To: <51C87467.6040301@veecall.com>
References: <51C87467.6040301@veecall.com>
Message-ID: <51C8CA07.7050500@msapiro.net>

On 06/24/2013 09:31 AM, J Gao wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I need some help here. I am building a new mail server to replace our
> old one. I installed postfix, courier, MailScanner on the Centos 6.4.
> The last I installed mailman v3 and I'm having trouble to make it work.


Mailman 3 core is still in beta. Mailman 3 web UI (Postorius) is still
in alpha. You shouild probably be installing Mailman 2.1./15 or the head
of the 2.1 branch at
<https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1>


> Our old email server has almost same setup, only that server is built 3
> years ago with mailman v2.


And Mailman 2.1 is a lot different from Mailman 3.


> On the new server, I setup some mail list, and transfer subscriber
> account from our old server. The I test it sending a email to the list.
> Here is the maillog onthe new server:
[...]
> 
> I see here:
> Jun 21 16:32:53 szeta *postfix/virtual*[29352]: 7DAA4825BE:
> to=<sjv-dev at my-domain.com>, relay=virtual, delay=6.2,
> delays=6.1/0.06/0/0.08, dsn=5.1.1, status=bounced (*unknown user:
> "sjv-dev at my-domain.com"*)
> 
> Then I got a auto response from mailman say the deliver is failed.


>From Mailman or from Postfix?


[...]
> I'm not sure what cause the mail delivery failed. Please help.


Mailman 3 does not do delivery to a Mailman wrapper via aliases like
Mailman 2.1 does. It is designed to use LMTP to deliver from Postfix to
Mailman.

Remove Mailman 3; install Mailman 2.1.15 or later, and come back if you
still have trouble.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From doug4r at gmail.com  Tue Jun 25 05:26:36 2013
From: doug4r at gmail.com (Doug Walker)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 23:26:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscriber Lists
Message-ID: <CAHNmz2vO3Gk_u-_-HMb++2p8OspCm7ESi50nRyCD78+3+NhGrg@mail.gmail.com>

Good day,

I use a mailman host site who takes care of all the technical stuff.

I have been administrator of 5 email discussion lists the last 3 months and
am slowly and surely becoming more proficient at it.

I know I can use the "list" command option to get a nice list of
subscribers by email address.  But, I also need to put out a list that has
both the subscribers "Real Name" and their email address.  Is there any way
I can do this?

Doug

From urwald at rocketmail.com  Tue Jun 25 01:34:36 2013
From: urwald at rocketmail.com (Urwald Urwald)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:34:36 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Character encoding for mass subscribtion?
Message-ID: <1372116876.93012.YahooMailNeo@web172302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>



Hello.

I want to mass-subscribe some mail addresses in mailman. I have a list of (spanish) names and the mail addresses. The names usually contain non-ascii characters like a with akute (?), e with acute (?), n with tilde (?) and so on. Mailman doesn't import these names correctly. Why not???

I've tried it with entering the list in the web browser. Not working correctly. I've tried to upload a UTF8-encoded text file. Not working correctly. I've tried some other encodings. Not working.

However, I've tested it with a file containing only 1 mail address and "????????" as name. Finally the upload was working when I used 8859-15. Than I have converted my big address list to 8859-15, and now it didn't work anymore. Yes, I can reproduce that. Does mailman try to auto-recognize the character encoding?

How can I get this working??? I need some help.

Cheers

Tim


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun 25 08:14:59 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:14:59 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply e-mail options.
In-Reply-To: <9FBDE0FB-F188-4B14-A329-3472BCE558B5@gmail.com>
References: <6AFA5611-BCF6-40F4-A2BB-FA6630E91632@gmail.com>
	<51C8750F.6080608@msapiro.net>
	<9FBDE0FB-F188-4B14-A329-3472BCE558B5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87a9me1zto.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Joe writes:

 > I would like to have mail addressed to the list with a simple
 > 'Reply' and addressed to both the list and the sender with a 'Reply
 > All'.
 > 
 > Can Mailman be configured to behave this way ?

No.  Replies are generated by subscriber-side mail clients, not by
Mailman.  Mailman *already* *by default* provides enough information
for them to do what you suggest on simple replies[1] (and IMHO that
should be default behavior!), and then Reply All would Just Work
Right.  But mostly they don't (in any configuration, let alone by
default).  As Mark explains, the Reply-To header can't be used because
it breaks Reply All.[2]

IIRC Mozilla Thunderbird and Sylpheed (and maybe Evolution) do this
right.  But trying to convince subscribers to change their MUAs is
like trying to get addicts to give up their drugs. :-(

A few other clients (Mutt, Emacs/Gnus) have a reply-to-list function,
which often does the right thing (ie, fall back to reply-to-author if
it can't figure out what list is meant).  It is easier to get them to
use the function if already present in their client, but that's quite
a bit of work for somebody to find out what clients people are using
and if they have the function.

Footnotes: 
[1]  The RFC 2369 "List-Post" header.

[2]  This is because the definition of "Reply-To" in the email
standard is "The *author* says he doesn't want replies to go to
'From', he wants you to use this address.  Thank you!"


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 25 15:45:09 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 06:45:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscriber Lists
In-Reply-To: <CAHNmz2vO3Gk_u-_-HMb++2p8OspCm7ESi50nRyCD78+3+NhGrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHNmz2vO3Gk_u-_-HMb++2p8OspCm7ESi50nRyCD78+3+NhGrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51C99EE5.5060806@msapiro.net>

On 06/24/2013 08:26 PM, Doug Walker wrote:
> 
> I know I can use the "list" command option to get a nice list of
> subscribers by email address.  But, I also need to put out a list that has
> both the subscribers "Real Name" and their email address.  Is there any way
> I can do this?


I'm not sure what you mean by the "list" command option, but see the FAQ
at <http://wiki.list.org/x/aYA9>, and if by any chance this is cPanel,
see <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From eminmn at sysmatrix.net  Tue Jun 25 14:46:04 2013
From: eminmn at sysmatrix.net (e.c.)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 07:46:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Character encoding for mass subscribtion?
In-Reply-To: <1372116876.93012.YahooMailNeo@web172302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
References: <1372116876.93012.YahooMailNeo@web172302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAM4eEPLbp8_uQjmmW=4Lcw9GDx8udKN43UZXNrmX7LOrCTLraw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Urwald Urwald <urwald at rocketmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> Hello.
>
> I want to mass-subscribe some mail addresses in mailman. I have a list of
> (spanish) names and the mail addresses. The names usually contain non-ascii
> characters like a with akute (?), e with acute (?), n with tilde (?) and so
> on. Mailman doesn't import these names correctly. Why not???
>
> I've tried it with entering the list in the web browser. Not working
> correctly. I've tried to upload a UTF8-encoded text file. Not working
> correctly. I've tried some other encodings. Not working.
>
> However, I've tested it with a file containing only 1 mail address and
> "????????" as name. Finally the upload was working when I used 8859-15.
> Than I have converted my big address list to 8859-15, and now it didn't
> work anymore. Yes, I can reproduce that. Does mailman try to auto-recognize
> the character encoding?
>
> Have a look at this link:
>
> http://www.divideandconquer.se/2009/08/17/convert-mailman-translation-to-utf-8/
>
> I don't understand the def _(s) function but since ascii is a subset of
> utf-8, it's safe to use iconv going from ascii (or iso-8859-1) to utf-8.
> Maybe all you needed was to add (or change) the line
>
> DEFAULT_CHARSET = 'utf-8'
>
> in mm_config.py.
>
> The example shows sv (Sverige) and _("Swedish"). This might need es and _("Spanish") although I don't
> see why it's needed since utf-8 should allow for an unequivocal representation of many alphabets in the
> same document.
>
>
> How can I get this working??? I need some help.
>
>




> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/eminmn%40sysmatrix.net
>

From jgao at veecall.com  Tue Jun 25 17:53:34 2013
From: jgao at veecall.com (J Gao)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 08:53:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscriber Lists
In-Reply-To: <CAHNmz2vO3Gk_u-_-HMb++2p8OspCm7ESi50nRyCD78+3+NhGrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHNmz2vO3Gk_u-_-HMb++2p8OspCm7ESi50nRyCD78+3+NhGrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51C9BCFE.3020506@veecall.com>

On 13-06-24 08:26 PM, Doug Walker wrote:
> Good day,
>
> I use a mailman host site who takes care of all the technical stuff.
>
> I have been administrator of 5 email discussion lists the last 3 months and
> am slowly and surely becoming more proficient at it.
>
> I know I can use the "list" command option to get a nice list of
> subscribers by email address.  But, I also need to put out a list that has
> both the subscribers "Real Name" and their email address.  Is there any way
> I can do this?
>
> Doug
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jgao%40veecall.com
>


On my CentOS, I can run this command:
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_members -f <my_ maillist>




-- 
      __
    _|==|_
     ('')__/
 >--(`^^')
   (`^'^'`)
   `======'

-- 


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 25 19:28:15 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 10:28:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Character encoding for mass subscribtion?
In-Reply-To: <1372116876.93012.YahooMailNeo@web172302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
References: <1372116876.93012.YahooMailNeo@web172302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51C9D32F.4050908@msapiro.net>

On 06/24/2013 04:34 PM, Urwald Urwald wrote:
> 
> However, I've tested it with a file containing only 1 mail address and "????????" as name. Finally the upload was working when I used 8859-15. Than I have converted my big address list to 8859-15, and now it didn't work anymore. Yes, I can reproduce that. Does mailman try to auto-recognize the character encoding?


Mailman assumes the mass subscribe list is encoded in the character set
of the list's preferred language. What this is depends on the language
and is defined by the add_language directives at the end of Defaults.py.

For example, a few entries are:

add_language('en',    _('English (USA)'),       'us-ascii',    'ltr')
add_language('es',    _('Spanish (Spain)'),     'iso-8859-1',  'ltr')
add_language('et',    _('Estonian'),            'iso-8859-15', 'ltr')
add_language('eu',    _('Euskara'),             'iso-8859-15', 'ltr')
add_language('gl',    _('Galician'),            'utf-8',       'ltr')

It is fairly simple to change the default character set for English to
utf-8 because us-ascii is a proper subset of utf-8, but that's the only
such case. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/6oDz>.

Changing the character set for other languages involves a procedure
similar to that outlined for Swedish in the link in e.c.'s reply.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 25 19:38:00 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 10:38:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Character encoding for mass subscribtion?
In-Reply-To: <CAM4eEPLbp8_uQjmmW=4Lcw9GDx8udKN43UZXNrmX7LOrCTLraw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1372116876.93012.YahooMailNeo@web172302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
	<CAM4eEPLbp8_uQjmmW=4Lcw9GDx8udKN43UZXNrmX7LOrCTLraw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51C9D578.2060602@msapiro.net>

On 06/25/2013 05:46 AM, e.c. wrote:

>> Have a look at this link:
>>
>> http://www.divideandconquer.se/2009/08/17/convert-mailman-translation-to-utf-8/
>>
>> I don't understand the def _(s) function but since ascii is a subset of
>> utf-8, it's safe to use iconv going from ascii (or iso-8859-1) to utf-8.


The def _(s) was copied from Defaults.py and is a device for allowing
the strings representing the language names to be seen as needing i18n,
but not translating them too soon.

Putting something like

def _(s):
  return s
add_language('sv',    _('Swedish'),       'utf-8')
del _

in mm_cfg.py works, but is way to complicated. All that is needed is the
single line

add_language('sv',    'Swedish',       'utf-8')


>> Maybe all you needed was to add (or change) the line
>>
>> DEFAULT_CHARSET = 'utf-8'
>>
>> in mm_config.py.


That setting is historical and currently has no effect.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From urwald at rocketmail.com  Tue Jun 25 22:20:46 2013
From: urwald at rocketmail.com (Urwald Urwald)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 21:20:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Character encoding for mass subscribtion?
In-Reply-To: <51C9D32F.4050908@msapiro.net>
References: <1372116876.93012.YahooMailNeo@web172302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
	<51C9D32F.4050908@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1372191646.26559.YahooMailNeo@web172306.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

Hello.

Thanks. This was the information I needed.

(In my case, thought the names are spanish names, the default list language is german, so the encoding is 8859-1.)

(I was just a little bit confused after seeing the confirmation of the mass subscribtion showing up with a wrong encoding. But proceeding to the membership management, there all the names are fine.)

Thanks a lot.

Tim




----- Urspr?ngliche Message -----
Von: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
An: mailman-users at python.org
CC: 
Gesendet: 19:28 Dienstag, 25.Juni 2013
Betreff: Re: [Mailman-Users] Character encoding for mass subscribtion?

On 06/24/2013 04:34 PM, Urwald Urwald wrote:
> 
> However, I've tested it with a file containing only 1 mail address and "????????" as name. Finally the upload was working when I used 8859-15. Than I have converted my big address list to 8859-15, and now it didn't work anymore. Yes, I can reproduce that. Does mailman try to auto-recognize the character encoding?


Mailman assumes the mass subscribe list is encoded in the character set
of the list's preferred language. What this is depends on the language
and is defined by the add_language directives at the end of Defaults.py.

For example, a few entries are:

add_language('en',? ? _('English (USA)'),? ? ?  'us-ascii',? ? 'ltr')
add_language('es',? ? _('Spanish (Spain)'),? ?  'iso-8859-1',? 'ltr')
add_language('et',? ? _('Estonian'),? ? ? ? ? ? 'iso-8859-15', 'ltr')
add_language('eu',? ? _('Euskara'),? ? ? ? ? ?  'iso-8859-15', 'ltr')
add_language('gl',? ? _('Galician'),? ? ? ? ? ? 'utf-8',? ? ?  'ltr')

It is fairly simple to change the default character set for English to
utf-8 because us-ascii is a proper subset of utf-8, but that's the only
such case. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/6oDz>.

Changing the character set for other languages involves a procedure
similar to that outlined for Swedish in the link in e.c.'s reply.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>? ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/urwald%40rocketmail.com


From kardan at riseup.net  Tue Jun 25 15:56:18 2013
From: kardan at riseup.net (kardan)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:56:18 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] URL of scrubbed attachments missing in the list
	archive
Message-ID: <20130625155618.6137007e@delight>

Hi,

as listadmin I received a notification, that a 3mb email has been
moderated. I found the scrubber option and activated it. Afterwards I
let the mail pass and viewed it in the archive. The mail is there, but
without attachment (as intended) nor any link to it (contrary to my
expectation).

I have seen the scrubbing feature has been implemented in 2004 [1] and
assume it is well tested. The pipeline option [2] came to my attantion,
but I would like to keep the current order. There have been no other FAQ
entries regarding attachment than this [3]. This is not related to the
long URL issue [4] as the URL does not appear at all. I also did not
find it among the launchpad bugs [5]. Also I searched the archive for
missing URL etc. so I assume this has not been reported yet.

To check, if this is an instance of #265869 (Scrubber/attachment bug on
NetBSD) a I asked the mailman admins but there was no such log entry,
also they use debian.

To reproduce one can try:
* setup a ML wihtout scrubbing enabled
* send a mail to the list that exceeds the size limit
* after the mail appeared for moderation, activate scrubbing
* accept the mail and look in the archive if the URL is there

Can somebody reproduce this?

Thanks,
Kardan

1] http://sourceforge.net/p/mailman/patches/291/
2] http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=7602227
3] http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030548
4] http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Stable+URLs
5] https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/265869
6]
https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bugs?field.searchtext=attachment+URL

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 25 23:41:35 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 14:41:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] URL of scrubbed attachments missing in the list
 archive
In-Reply-To: <20130625155618.6137007e@delight>
References: <20130625155618.6137007e@delight>
Message-ID: <51CA0E8F.4000904@msapiro.net>

On 06/25/2013 06:56 AM, kardan wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> as listadmin I received a notification, that a 3mb email has been
> moderated. I found the scrubber option and activated it. Afterwards I
> let the mail pass and viewed it in the archive. The mail is there, but
> without attachment (as intended) nor any link to it (contrary to my
> expectation).


Perhaps the attachment was removed by Mailman's content filtering.


> To reproduce one can try:
> * setup a ML wihtout scrubbing enabled
> * send a mail to the list that exceeds the size limit
> * after the mail appeared for moderation, activate scrubbing
> * accept the mail and look in the archive if the URL is there
> 
> Can somebody reproduce this?


I can easily reproduce this if the large MIME part in the message is a
Content-Type that will be removed by Mailman's content filtering.

If not, and if by "activate scrubbing" you mean set scrub_nondigest to
Yes, then it should work as you expect and the large MIME part should be
removed and replaced by a URL in both the archive and in the post
delivered to the list.

Note that non text/plain MIME parts that pass content filtering are
always stored aside and replaced by links in the plain format digest and
the pipermail archive regardless of the setting of scrub_nondigest.

So the underlying question is what was the MIME Content-Type of the
large message part and what are your list's content filtering settings?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 26 00:18:06 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:18:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Branch with extra features - was: Ordering of
 messages in the moderation queue by date?
In-Reply-To: <51C380DA.80101@msapiro.net>
References: <51C380DA.80101@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51CA171E.9060600@msapiro.net>

Just for information, I have installed the patch for message ordering in
the admindb held message summary in the Bazaar branch at
<https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.2> (lp:mailman/2.2).

This branch is essentially the 2.1 branch with the addition of a few
features and bug fixes as described under 2.2.0a0 in its NEWS file. The
original goals for the 2.2 branch have been superceded by Mailman 3, and
at this point, the intent is that it will never be released. It is
however, tested and stable and is the basis of the Mailman I run on my
production server. Most, if not all the differences between this branch
and the 2.1 branch have not been backported to 2.1 for i18n reasons.

Note however that the fact that I run it in production doesn't
necessarily mean that the held message ordering is heavily tested as I
seldom see more than one held message at a time on my lists.

Anyway, if you are interested in this message ordering feature and
possibly others, look at the 2.2.0a0 section at
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.2/view/head:/NEWS>,
and consider using this branch.

Caveat: Topics regexps are handled differently (more in agreement with
documentation) in this branch than they are in 2.1. If you use Topics
and install this branch, your Topics regexps will be converted, but if
you go back to 2.1, they won't be converted back, so it would be a good
idea to use bin/config_list before installing 2.2 to back up any topics
settings so they can be restored if you go back to 2.1. Also, because of
the way Mailman detects the need for updates, if you YoYo back and
forth, Topics regexps will only be converted the first time, so consider
also backing up the 2.2 settings.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From kardan at riseup.net  Wed Jun 26 01:32:32 2013
From: kardan at riseup.net (kardan)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 01:32:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] URL of scrubbed attachments missing in the list
 archive
In-Reply-To: <51CA0E8F.4000904@msapiro.net>
References: <20130625155618.6137007e@delight>
 <51CA0E8F.4000904@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20130626013232.7e5ece39@delight>

Hi,

thanks for the fast answer.

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 14:41:35 -0700
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Perhaps the attachment was removed by Mailman's content filtering.
> 
> I can easily reproduce this if the large MIME part in the message is a
> Content-Type that will be removed by Mailman's content filtering.
> 
> If not, and if by "activate scrubbing" you mean set scrub_nondigest to
> Yes, then it should work as you expect and the large MIME part should
> be removed and replaced by a URL in both the archive and in the post
> delivered to the list.
> 
> Note that non text/plain MIME parts that pass content filtering are
> always stored aside and replaced by links in the plain format digest
> and the pipermail archive regardless of the setting of
> scrub_nondigest.
> 
> So the underlying question is what was the MIME Content-Type of the
> large message part and what are your list's content filtering
> settings?

The tree is like this (according to claws-mail)
1) * message/rfc822 (3.29MB)
2) ** multipart/alternative (3.29MB)
3) *** text/plain (1.14KB)
4) *** multipart/related (3.28MB)
5) **** text/html (3.83KB)
6) **** image/jpeg (3.28MB)

1) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-63-807922156

The filter options:
* filter_content: yes
* filter_mime_types: <none>
* pass_mime_types:
> multipart/mixed
> multipart/alternative
> text/plain
* filter_filename_extensions:
> exe
> bat
> cmd
> com
> pif
> scr
> vbs
> cpl
* pass_filename_extensions: <none>
* collapse_alternatives: yes
* convert_html_to_plaintext: yes
* filter_action: discard

The resulted mail contained only (3) and had these headers:
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:35:52 +0200
X-ContentX-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:35:52 +0200
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.13-Filtered-By:
Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.13
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes"

So multipart/related is not in the allowed MIME type and was filtered.
I think it is no bad idea to have the above filenames filtered, while
everything else should pass landing in the archive. Please give me a
hint, how to archieve this.

Thanks,
Kardan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 26 02:50:20 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 17:50:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] URL of scrubbed attachments missing in the list
 archive
In-Reply-To: <20130626013232.7e5ece39@delight>
References: <20130625155618.6137007e@delight> <51CA0E8F.4000904@msapiro.net>
	<20130626013232.7e5ece39@delight>
Message-ID: <51CA3ACC.6000807@msapiro.net>

On 06/25/2013 04:32 PM, kardan wrote:
> 
> The tree is like this (according to claws-mail)
> 1) * message/rfc822 (3.29MB)
> 2) ** multipart/alternative (3.29MB)
> 3) *** text/plain (1.14KB)
> 4) *** multipart/related (3.28MB)
> 5) **** text/html (3.83KB)
> 6) **** image/jpeg (3.28MB)
> 
[...]
> 
> The filter options:
> * filter_content: yes
> * filter_mime_types: <none>
> * pass_mime_types:
>> multipart/mixed
>> multipart/alternative
>> text/plain
[...]
> * collapse_alternatives: yes
> * convert_html_to_plaintext: yes



> 
> The resulted mail contained only (3) and had these headers:
> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:35:52 +0200
> X-ContentX-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:35:52 +0200
> X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.13-Filtered-By:
> Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.13
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes"
> 
> So multipart/related is not in the allowed MIME type and was filtered.
> I think it is no bad idea to have the above filenames filtered, while
> everything else should pass landing in the archive. Please give me a
> hint, how to archieve this.


As you surmise, your settings do not pass multipart/related so the
multipart/related part including its text/html and image/jpeg subparts
were removed.

Note that even if you were to change your pass_mime_types to

multipart
text/plain
text/html
image/jpeg

so that all the parts of the message are accepted, the result would
still only be the text/plain part because collapse_alternatives = Yes
means replace the multipart/alternative part with the first (the
text/plain) sub-part.

If you want to filter only on filename extensions and pass all MIME
types that don't have associated file names with the
filter_filename_extensions extensions, you want pass_mime_types to be
empty and collapse_alternatives and convert_html_to_plaintext to be No,
but this will potentially accept all kinds of malware which may have
Content-Type: application/octet-stream and no file name.

Whether this is safe or not depends on other things like discarding
non-member posts and knowing your list members.

The real question is do you really want some list members 3.2 Mbyte jpeg
stationery background (if that's what it was) in your archive and
distributed to your list?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From javad at irannopendar.com  Wed Jun 26 20:08:27 2013
From: javad at irannopendar.com (Javad Hoseini-Nopendar)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 22:38:27 +0430
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is there any throttle function in mailman?
Message-ID: <000501ce7298$2b131770$0201a8c0@home3c459be30f>

Hi everybody
I like very much to use mailman, but I am always concerned about hosting the 
mailing list by my own website. In fact, my website host, limits the number 
of allowed emails to 300 emails per hour. I have a mailing list with about 
70 members and right now, the average rate of email sending is one email per 
week, which means 70 emails per week. Of course that is not beyond the 
permitted limit, but I would like to expand my activities. I would like to 
advertise for my mailing list, so more and more members will com to this 
list, but there is always a big concern. if in the peak time, the users send 
more than 5 emails in an hour (more than 300 emails per hour), or if the 
number of my members goes higher, it will be very likely that some of the 
emails sent to this mailing list will be rejected or returned by the mailing 
list. Is there any throttle feature in mailman that manages the high traffic 
of emails in a way that I can make sure no email will be rejected or 
returned?

Thank you





From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 26 22:47:03 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 13:47:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is there any throttle function in mailman?
In-Reply-To: <000501ce7298$2b131770$0201a8c0@home3c459be30f>
References: <000501ce7298$2b131770$0201a8c0@home3c459be30f>
Message-ID: <51CB5347.8000604@msapiro.net>

On 06/26/2013 11:08 AM, Javad Hoseini-Nopendar wrote:

> Is there any throttle feature in mailman that manages the high traffic 
> of emails in a way that I can make sure no email will be rejected or 
> returned?


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/j4A9> and the throttle.patch
linked therefrom.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From kardan at riseup.net  Wed Jun 26 23:57:14 2013
From: kardan at riseup.net (kardan)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:57:14 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] URL of scrubbed attachments missing in the list
 archive
In-Reply-To: <51CA3ACC.6000807@msapiro.net>
References: <20130625155618.6137007e@delight> <51CA0E8F.4000904@msapiro.net>
	<20130626013232.7e5ece39@delight> <51CA3ACC.6000807@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20130626235714.0c8cb600@delight>

Hi,

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 17:50:20 -0700
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
> As you surmise, your settings do not pass multipart/related so the
> multipart/related part including its text/html and image/jpeg subparts
> were removed.
> 
> Note that even if you were to change your pass_mime_types to
> 
> multipart
> text/plain
> text/html
> image/jpeg
> 
> so that all the parts of the message are accepted, the result would
> still only be the text/plain part because collapse_alternatives = Yes
> means replace the multipart/alternative part with the first (the
> text/plain) sub-part.
I deactivated the collapse_alternatives as this was not what I intended.
 
> If you want to filter only on filename extensions and pass all MIME
> types that don't have associated file names with the
> filter_filename_extensions extensions, you want pass_mime_types to be
> empty and collapse_alternatives and convert_html_to_plaintext to be
> No, but this will potentially accept all kinds of malware which may
> have Content-Type: application/octet-stream and no file name.
Basically I prefert text to html mails and would like to keep
convert_html_to_plaintext=yes as I know some members have quite weird
colour and formatting settings as default. So far none of the list
members complained.
RFC8220 [1] does not say anything about MIME types and I don't know
which others are possible so I better disable mime type filtering.
However accepting application/octet-stream seems risky and I see no way
to handle that properly, except whitelisting all accepted types like
pdf, jpg, png and all documents. However odt with embedded macros can
be harmful as well. So there is probably no easy fix for that.

> Whether this is safe or not depends on other things like discarding
> non-member posts and knowing your list members.
This is a quite open regional list with people who are not that
experienced on security topics. Even if encourage people to not send
attachments and to use external filehosting services, receivers are
prone to any kind of linked malware. So far I trusted the installed
virus scanners used by amavisd-new and have to admit I digged not
very deeped into their capabilities.
 
> The real question is do you really want some list members 3.2 Mbyte
> jpeg stationery background (if that's what it was) in your archive and
> distributed to your list?
I definitely do not want that. The current maximum file size is 500kb
as members requested this, but this is still quite a lot for non-dsl
users. The option to link attachments in the archive instead of
forwarding them sounds like the best solution in my eyes, while
accepting the above issues still.

Kardan

1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc822

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 27 00:38:30 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 15:38:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] URL of scrubbed attachments missing in the list
 archive
In-Reply-To: <20130626235714.0c8cb600@delight>
References: <20130625155618.6137007e@delight> <51CA0E8F.4000904@msapiro.net>
	<20130626013232.7e5ece39@delight> <51CA3ACC.6000807@msapiro.net>
	<20130626235714.0c8cb600@delight>
Message-ID: <51CB6D66.70406@msapiro.net>

On 06/26/2013 02:57 PM, kardan wrote:

> I deactivated the collapse_alternatives as this was not what I intended.
[...]
> Basically I prefert text to html mails and would like to keep
> convert_html_to_plaintext=yes as I know some members have quite weird
> colour and formatting settings as default. So far none of the list
> members complained.


If you prefer plain text to HTML or other fancy text, you probably DO
want collapse_alternatives = Yes as that will normally select a plain
text alternative in preference to an HTML alternative.


> RFC8220 [1] does not say anything about MIME types and I don't know
> which others are possible so I better disable mime type filtering.


See <http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types>.


> However accepting application/octet-stream seems risky and I see no way
> to handle that properly, except whitelisting all accepted types like
> pdf, jpg, png and all documents. However odt with embedded macros can
> be harmful as well. So there is probably no easy fix for that.


Note that filtering/accepting based on file extension is not at all
reliable as many inline images with media types like image/jpeg,
image/gif, image/png, etc. will not have an associated file name and
therefore cannot be filtered/accepted based on filename extension. The
same is also sometimes true for application/pdf and many other media types.


[...]
> The option to link attachments in the archive instead of
> forwarding them sounds like the best solution in my eyes, while
> accepting the above issues still.


If by the above, you mean the option (scrub_nondigest) to remove, store
aside and link to attachments in individual messages and MIME format
digests, then you are correct in what it does, however, attachments are
always removed, stored aside and replaced by links in archived posts and
plain format digests regardless of this option. The option only controls
at what point in the process the removal/replacement occurs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From kardan at riseup.net  Thu Jun 27 02:18:04 2013
From: kardan at riseup.net (kardan)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 02:18:04 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] URL of scrubbed attachments missing in the list
 archive
In-Reply-To: <51CB6D66.70406@msapiro.net>
References: <20130625155618.6137007e@delight> <51CA0E8F.4000904@msapiro.net>
	<20130626013232.7e5ece39@delight> <51CA3ACC.6000807@msapiro.net>
	<20130626235714.0c8cb600@delight> <51CB6D66.70406@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20130627021804.4cd8a625@delight>

Hi,

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 15:38:30 -0700
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 06/26/2013 02:57 PM, kardan wrote:
> 
> > I deactivated the collapse_alternatives as this was not what I
> > intended.
> [...]
> > Basically I prefert text to html mails and would like to keep
> > convert_html_to_plaintext=yes as I know some members have quite
> > weird colour and formatting settings as default. So far none of the
> > list members complained.
> 
> If you prefer plain text to HTML or other fancy text, you probably DO
> want collapse_alternatives = Yes as that will normally select a plain
> text alternative in preference to an HTML alternative.
Sounds convincing.

> See <http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types>.

I found, that rfc1521 shows an overview content and MIME types
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1521.html

7.4.1.     The Application/Octet-Stream (primary) subtype
To reduce the danger of transmitting rogue programs through the mail,
   it is strongly recommended that implementations NOT implement a
   path-search mechanism whereby an arbitrary program named in the
   Content-Type parameter (e.g., an "interpreter=" parameter) is found
   and executed using the mail body as input.

I came to the conclusion, especially because I know that many users do
not care about security, not even about technology so much, it is my
task as listadmin to take most risks out of their way instead of leaving
the possibilities of harmful content with obligations they do not
understand.
Even if octet garbage is propably no harm for my system as it is
treated as non-executable I should not burden anybody with the
possibility of unwanted script execution.

> > However accepting application/octet-stream seems risky and I see no
> > way to handle that properly, except whitelisting all accepted types
> > like pdf, jpg, png and all documents. However odt with embedded
> > macros can be harmful as well. So there is probably no easy fix for
> > that.
> 
> Note that filtering/accepting based on file extension is not at all
> reliable as many inline images with media types like image/jpeg,
> image/gif, image/png, etc. will not have an associated file name and
> therefore cannot be filtered/accepted based on filename extension. The
> same is also sometimes true for application/pdf and many other media
> types.

I cannot take care of in which way a user sends attachments. I neither
want to filter them nor should they be forwarded, but stored aside. You
said "your settings do not pass multipart/related so the
multipart/related part including its text/html and image/jpeg
subparts were removed", which is not what I want.

> > The option to link attachments in the archive instead of
> > forwarding them sounds like the best solution in my eyes, while
> > accepting the above issues still.
> 
> If by the above, you mean the option (scrub_nondigest) to remove,
> store aside and link to attachments in individual messages and MIME
> format digests, then you are correct in what it does, however,
> attachments are always removed, stored aside and replaced by links in
> archived posts and plain format digests regardless of this option.
> The option only controls at what point in the process the
> removal/replacement occurs.

Summarizing i need to change the following options to make mailman
* send only plain text messages to the user
* strip all (inline) attachments, store them and link to it in both, the
  archived and the fordwarded version

pass_mime_types = <none>
collapse_alternatives = Yes
convert_html_to_plaintext = Yes

Is there anything I missed?

Thanks for all your help so far!
Kardan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 27 02:38:56 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:38:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] URL of scrubbed attachments missing in the list
 archive
In-Reply-To: <20130627021804.4cd8a625@delight>
References: <20130625155618.6137007e@delight> <51CA0E8F.4000904@msapiro.net>
	<20130626013232.7e5ece39@delight> <51CA3ACC.6000807@msapiro.net>
	<20130626235714.0c8cb600@delight> <51CB6D66.70406@msapiro.net>
	<20130627021804.4cd8a625@delight>
Message-ID: <51CB89A0.3070105@msapiro.net>

On 06/26/2013 05:18 PM, kardan wrote:
> 
> Summarizing i need to change the following options to make mailman
> * send only plain text messages to the user
> * strip all (inline) attachments, store them and link to it in both, the
>   archived and the fordwarded version
> 
> pass_mime_types = <none>collapse_alternatives = Yes
> collapse_alternatives = Yes
> convert_html_to_plaintext = Yes
> 
> Is there anything I missed?


Assuming you have set scrub_nondigest to Yes, then the above should do
more or less what you say you want, but consider the message whose
structure you posted at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2013-June/075332.html>.
For this message, collapse_alternatives = Yes will keep only the
text/plain alternative from the multipart/alternative part and will
remove the multipart/related alternative together with its text/html and
image/jpeg sub-parts.

If this is what you want in this case, then your settings are good. On
the other hand, if in this case you want the image/jpeg part stored
aside and linked, then you might as well set filter_content to No and
not filter content at all.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From joemailgroups at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 03:48:25 2013
From: joemailgroups at gmail.com (Joe)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 18:48:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply e-mail options.
In-Reply-To: <87a9me1zto.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <6AFA5611-BCF6-40F4-A2BB-FA6630E91632@gmail.com>
	<51C8750F.6080608@msapiro.net>
	<9FBDE0FB-F188-4B14-A329-3472BCE558B5@gmail.com>
	<87a9me1zto.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <BA463660-A303-4CF4-A3DB-B58D04B2B410@gmail.com>

Thank you Mark and Stephen for your help and replies. I made the appropriate changes and informed all subscribers how the 'Reply' and 'Reply All' options work.

Joe.


On June 24, 2013, at 11:14 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

> Joe writes:
> 
>> I would like to have mail addressed to the list with a simple
>> 'Reply' and addressed to both the list and the sender with a 'Reply
>> All'.
>> 
>> Can Mailman be configured to behave this way ?
> 
> No.  Replies are generated by subscriber-side mail clients, not by
> Mailman.  Mailman *already* *by default* provides enough information
> for them to do what you suggest on simple replies[1] (and IMHO that
> should be default behavior!), and then Reply All would Just Work
> Right.  But mostly they don't (in any configuration, let alone by
> default).  As Mark explains, the Reply-To header can't be used because
> it breaks Reply All.[2]
> 
> IIRC Mozilla Thunderbird and Sylpheed (and maybe Evolution) do this
> right.  But trying to convince subscribers to change their MUAs is
> like trying to get addicts to give up their drugs. :-(
> 
> A few other clients (Mutt, Emacs/Gnus) have a reply-to-list function,
> which often does the right thing (ie, fall back to reply-to-author if
> it can't figure out what list is meant).  It is easier to get them to
> use the function if already present in their client, but that's quite
> a bit of work for somebody to find out what clients people are using
> and if they have the function.
> 
> Footnotes: 
> [1]  The RFC 2369 "List-Post" header.
> 
> [2]  This is because the definition of "Reply-To" in the email
> standard is "The *author* says he doesn't want replies to go to
> 'From', he wants you to use this address.  Thank you!"
> 


From camelia.botez at weizmann.ac.il  Thu Jun 27 12:10:46 2013
From: camelia.botez at weizmann.ac.il (Camelia Botez)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 10:10:46 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] running mailman under CISCO LB
Message-ID: <74B33B2DD6D2A148967C7ECBEBF842CF011240635D@IBWMBX04>

I have the following architecture:
CISCO LB  using a virtual IP (VIP)
2 RHEL5 servers running mailman ( on each one of them mailman installed by rpm).
The mailman installation was done on each server separately  and the only nfs common between those servers is "/var/lib/mailman" ( coming from
Netapp volume w/r) containing archives , data , lists and spam directories.
When I create a list and I send mail to this list at server1 the mail arrives , but if I send the message to list at VIP the mail is lost.
There is something I should do in mailman config files to reflect this architecture?
I need this in case one of the servers crashes.


Thank you


From eminmn at sysmatrix.net  Thu Jun 27 18:30:11 2013
From: eminmn at sysmatrix.net (e.c.)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 11:30:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Related question about limiting postings [was: Is
 there any throttle function in mailman?]
Message-ID: <CAM4eEPKHK=M0NnTnVkuu1GqVSRn9XyePSEjhM1WomxHoRMybTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 06/26/2013 11:08 AM, Javad Hoseini-Nopendar wrote:
>
> > Is there any throttle feature in mailman that manages the high traffic
> > of emails in a way that I can make sure no email will be rejected or
> > returned?
>


Two possibly related features available on the LISTSERV product are (1)
limiting postings per listmember and (2) per list. We have a Sympa list in
Poland that migrated from LISTSERV to Sympa few years ago but neither of
those settings are available on Sympa. It seems that those low level
accounting functions should not be imposed on moderators and now a part of
the list membership is considering moving the list to mailman if these
features could be supported or to LISTSERV free version if not. Could they
be implemented on mailman (or postfix, exim, sendmail)? is it possible to
use mailmain with LSMTP  on Gnu/Linux? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ed

Apologies if this should have gone to a developers forum. I don't know
where that is.




>
>
> See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/j4A9> and the throttle.patch
> linked therefrom.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/eminmn%40sysmatrix.net
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 27 20:12:08 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 11:12:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Related question about limiting postings [was:
 Is there any throttle function in mailman?]
In-Reply-To: <CAM4eEPKHK=M0NnTnVkuu1GqVSRn9XyePSEjhM1WomxHoRMybTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4eEPKHK=M0NnTnVkuu1GqVSRn9XyePSEjhM1WomxHoRMybTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51CC8078.9000108@msapiro.net>

On 06/27/2013 09:30 AM, e.c. wrote:
>  
> Two possibly related features available on the LISTSERV product are (1)
> limiting postings per listmember and (2) per list.
[...]
> Could they be implemented on mailman (or postfix, exim, sendmail)?


Mailman is open source so anyone is free to modify it to include these
features. It shouldn't be too difficult for someone familiar with
Mailman's internals.

It is very unlikely that these features will ever be
implemented/included in a GNU Mailman 2.1 release. Possibly they could
be considered for Mailman 3. You could submit a feature request (bug
report) at <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug> and tag it
'mailman3'.


> is it
> possible to use mailmain with LSMTP  on Gnu/Linux? Any advice would be
> appreciated.


Isn't LSMTP a Windows product?


> Apologies if this should have gone to a developers forum. I don't know
> where that is.


<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun 28 00:55:27 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 15:55:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] running mailman under CISCO LB
In-Reply-To: <74B33B2DD6D2A148967C7ECBEBF842CF011240635D@IBWMBX04>
References: <74B33B2DD6D2A148967C7ECBEBF842CF011240635D@IBWMBX04>
Message-ID: <51CCC2DF.7090400@msapiro.net>

On 06/27/2013 03:10 AM, Camelia Botez wrote:
> I have the following architecture:
> CISCO LB  using a virtual IP (VIP)
> 2 RHEL5 servers running mailman ( on each one of them mailman installed by rpm).
> The mailman installation was done on each server separately  and the only nfs common between those servers is "/var/lib/mailman" ( coming from
> Netapp volume w/r) containing archives , data , lists and spam directories.
> When I create a list and I send mail to this list at server1 the mail arrives , but if I send the message to list at VIP the mail is lost.


What is in the mail server logs related to the mail to list at VIP?


> There is something I should do in mailman config files to reflect this architecture?
> I need this in case one of the servers crashes.


There will be issues with your configuration. You are not sharing
qfiles/ (/var/spool/mailman/ in the RHEL package) so Mailman must be
running on both machines and you must share the locks/
(/var/lock/mailman/ in the RHEL package) directory in any case or you
will lose data due to race conditions.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From karl at freefriends.org  Fri Jun 28 20:48:29 2013
From: karl at freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:48:29 GMT
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newsgroup->mailman moderation
Message-ID: <201306281848.r5SImTqu028469@freefriends.org>

Greetings,

For gnu.org, we have always had gatewaying between Usenet and
mailman for quite a few lists, e.g., help-gnu-emacs and bug-gnu-utils.

When a message is gatewayed *from* Usenet to the mailing list, Mailman
evidently omits any of the usual moderation features
(generic_nonmember_action and the like).  Mark (Sapiro) mentioned this
in http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-April/061154.html,
and it's also the behavior that we have always seen.  Evidently due to
the inq.enqueue call in gate_news, around line 179 in 2.1.15.

However, spam does get posted to Usenet, and we don't want it to simply
be blindly injected into the mailing lists.  The workaround we've been
using is to add "Newsgroups:" to the "Spam Filter Regexp" with
Action=Hold for header_filter_rules (in Privacy Options > Spam filters).

That holds the incoming posts from Usenet.  But the downside is
significant: every Usenet post is held, even when it would otherwise be
approved (e.g., it comes from a known whitelisted address).

So, we would really like to have posts from Usenet be subject to the
normal mailman moderation rules (for purposes of both holding and
accepting messages).  Is it feasible to hack gate_news to make that
happen?  Help?  Unfortunately my own mailman-fu is not nearly up to the
job :(.

Thanks,
Karl

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun 29 16:20:12 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 07:20:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newsgroup->mailman moderation
In-Reply-To: <201306281848.r5SImTqu028469@freefriends.org>
References: <201306281848.r5SImTqu028469@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <51CEED1C.8030903@msapiro.net>

On 06/28/2013 11:48 AM, Karl Berry wrote:
> 
> So, we would really like to have posts from Usenet be subject to the
> normal mailman moderation rules (for purposes of both holding and
> accepting messages).  Is it feasible to hack gate_news to make that
> happen?  Help?  Unfortunately my own mailman-fu is not nearly up to the
> job :(.


You could hack gate_news by changing

                inq.enqueue(msg,
                            listname = mlist.internal_name(),
                            fromusenet = 1)

to

                inq.enqueue(msg,
                            listname = mlist.internal_name(),
                            )

i.e., just drop the fromusenet = 1, but DO NOT DO THIS. It will work,
but if your usenet gating is bidirectional it will possibly cause a mail
loop as the post from usenet will be posted back to usenet.

It's better to leave gate_news as is and make the following changes.

To enable list membership and *_these_nonmembers tests, at about line 50
in Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py, change

    if msgdata.get('approved') or msgdata.get('fromusenet'):

to

    if msgdata.get('approved'):

The various miscellaneous holds applied by Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py are
already applied to usnet posts with the exception of
require_explicit_destination which you don't want anyway, so no changes
should be necessary there.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cyndi at norwitz.net  Sun Jun 30 21:51:54 2013
From: cyndi at norwitz.net (Cyndi Norwitz)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:51:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Privacy Options Filtering
In-Reply-To: <51AD2E30.8030606@msapiro.net>
References: <F6EC2488-52F2-4352-AE65-BED5935B2B3F@norwitz.net>
	<633AA8E8-6C17-4027-A566-7D45A5900D7C@norwitz.net>
	<51AD2E30.8030606@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <14EF8E75-B00E-466F-AEA3-786B5438FD8E@norwitz.net>


On Jun 3, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> On 06/03/2013 03:21 PM, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>> This must have come at a bad time because no one seemed to have seen it.
> 
> 
> I saw it, left it in my inbox for later and never saw it again until
> now. Sorry and thanks for reposting.

Thanks for your reply.  I'm sorry I didn't see it sooner.  I just now checked my mailbox where I filter this list.


>> 2) To add a domain name to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
>> ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?domain\.com$  (or use net, info, etc).
>> In other words, the only way to actually know that is to be a programmer or to ask on this list and save it for years, as I did.
> 
> 
> Your regexp is a bit more complicated than it needs to be.

LOL!  

Well maybe it is but YOU are the one who told me to use it.  Years ago.  (or possibly someone else on a thread that you contributed to as well)

> This is equivalent.
> 
> ^.*[@.]domain\.com$

Since I just cut and paste the relevant parts, I'm not sure it matters.

>> Couldn't we just list the domains, in a separate box if required?  After all, we just list the email addresses and obviously the software knows how to handle them.  If we had a box for domains, couldn't the software be programmed to handle them?
> 
> 
> This won't happen in MM 2.1 for the same reasons as those mentioned in
> the ongoing "Custom Pages" thread at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg62744.html>

Okay, so if I understand the thread? you're saying what might look like a simple change to me is actually extremely complex, in part because of the necessity for translation into several dozen languages.  And that MM is about to change to a completely new version so you are (understandably) unwilling to make non-urgent changes to the current version.  That sounds reasonable.

> I don't know if this will be available in Postorius for MM 3. The
> Mailman-developers at python.org list would be the place to follow up.

Nodding.

>> 3) To add a username (or partial) to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
>> ^username
>> That is way easier than domain names but still not something most of us just know.  And it only works if it's the beginning of the email address.
> 
> 
> And when is the username (local-part) not at the beginning of the email
> address? Or do you mean matching things like xxxfreecredit@??

Yes.  Also domain names do things like ?@xxxfreecredit.com (or net or org or ru or 100 other choices).  In other words, the extra characters can be at the beginning of the username, at the beginning of the domain name, or in the domain location.  Of course the extra characters can all be in the middle or end of the string too.

>> Could there be an easier way?  I don't want to run the risk of list owners overdoing this, but some spam usernames are super obvious.  Like freecredit or onlinepoker. 
> 
> 
> Learn simple regular expressions. There are lots of good references, and
> in their simpler forms, they're not much different from 'globs'.

So what you're saying that what I want here is already available, I just need to learn how to do it?

> Any 'simple' UI that attempted to translate say 'a string that matches a
> part of the email address to the left of the @' into the corresponding
> match would probably be unwieldy with too many options and would still
> not have the power of simple regular expressions.

Okay.

>> 4) It would be fantastic if we could add an entire domain name to the list of filters from the moderation panel.  Right now it is a multi-step process to do this (and difficult in part because my spam list is so very long).  Again, it would have to be done in a way where a listowner didn't overdo it (like discarding everything from yahoo.com or aol.com because some spammers use those addresses).  But it is pretty frustrating to have a moderation page with, say, 6 spams in a row from the same domain name (something obvious) but each one uses a different username, and you know hundreds more are coming.
> 
> 
> See the last part of the answer to number 2.

Ahhh?I know I can do it if I edit the privacy page directly.  What I want is for these to be lumped together on the moderation page.  So I don't have to go to the admin page, go to privacy, go to the proper place, and hand edit in a new domain name.  Because I can't guess what phrase spammers are going to use next for their domain name variations.

>> Okay, that's the wish list.  Now on to the bug.
>> 
>> The moderation panel click feature will add ANY email address to the filter lists upon request.  There is no check to see if it is a legit email address or not.  But if it adds a bad address, it breaks the filter.  The filter does still work, but it may not work for all the good addresses.  I'm not sure if it works up to the bad address and then stops.
> 
> 
> OK. This is a bug. I have entered it in the tracker at
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1187201> and I will fix it, but
> I'm not yet sure how. And the filter does continue to work for all
> addresses, even the bad ones.

Wonderful, thanks.

> That's my inclination for the fix. I.e. don't add the address to the
> filter and say why, but what else should or shouldn't be done. E.g.
> suppose this is one address out of 5 to be added from 5 posts. Do we
> abort the whole transaction, do everything else anyway or something in
> between.

Ideally it would accept the good addresses and reject the bad one and say which address was rejected and why.  But I would accept a total rejection as a solution if the former one was too much of a PITA to implement.  Even though it might mean repeating a couple minutes worth of work.  One note: the page allows you to discard an attempted post without putting the return address into a filter.  If I don't check a filter button when I discard a message, the message will simply disappear when i save the changes.  My concern is that I might lose the opportunity to add good addresses to the filter if the entire set is rejected.  I typically have 20-30 spam posts when I go through moderation (once a week or so since almost everyone on the mailing list is unmoderated (only newbies and a couple select individuals are on moderation)).

Another in-between solution might be to reject the "save changes" because there is an error but not partially process the messages or reset the button settings.  Ideally it would say what the error was.  This might be harder to program than the other ways, I don't really know.  My preference would be not to lose my work, however that manifests itself.  But whatever it takes to keep bad addresses out of the filter, that's the most important part.

>> Also, when giving the error message, please say which address(es) is bad.
> 
> 
> I'll see if that can be done with only minor impact, although if the bug
> is fixed, there should be no bad addresses in the existing list, so it's
> less of a problem.

Nodding.

>> That's it for now.  I may not have been posting here for a long time but I'm still a happy Mailman user.
> 
> 
> Glad to hear it.

:-)

I'm looking forward to the changes and to Version 3.  Lord only knows when I'll get to see any of it since, as you might recall, I don't run Mailman myself, I have it through my ISP.  And they only upgrade when a new version is out of beta (and they think about it).

Thanks for all your help and for your excellent program!
Cyndi