From nursejanice at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  1 02:01:17 2013
From: nursejanice at yahoo.com (Janice Boothe)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 18:01:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ERROR in 2.1.5
Message-ID: <1383267677.1603.YahooMailNeo@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

When I try to log into the admin page for my list (recently upgraded to MM2.1.5) I get the following...


Bug in Mailman version 2.1.15
We're sorry, we hit a bug!
Please inform the webmaster for this site of this
problem.  Printing of traceback and other system information has been
explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in the
Mailman error logs. 




How do I resolve this issue?

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov  1 02:36:29 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 18:36:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ERROR in 2.1.5
In-Reply-To: <1383267677.1603.YahooMailNeo@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383267677.1603.YahooMailNeo@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a9a5564a-fc42-4dc2-b497-918b4cb09713@email.android.com>

Janice Boothe <nursejanice at yahoo.com> wrote:
>When I try to log into the admin page for my list (recently upgraded to
>MM2.1.5) I get the following...
>
>
>Bug in Mailman version 2.1.15
>We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>Please inform the webmaster for this site of this
>problem.  Printing of traceback and other system information has been
>explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in
>the
>Mailman error logs. 
>
>
>
>
>How do I resolve this issue?


If this is your mailman installation look in mailman's error log and see what the error is. If you need help post the error message and the trace back here.

If this is a hosted mailman, report the problem to your host.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

From dlj at josephson.com  Fri Nov  1 08:02:29 2013
From: dlj at josephson.com (David Josephson)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 00:02:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ERROR in 2.1.5
In-Reply-To: <1383267677.1603.YahooMailNeo@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1383267677.1603.YahooMailNeo@web121702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <52735205.2090903@josephson.com>

On 10/31/13 6:01 PM, Janice Boothe wrote:
> When I try to log into the admin page for my list (recently upgraded to MM2.1.5) I get the following...
>
>
> Bug in Mailman version 2.1.15
> We're sorry, we hit a bug!
> Please inform the webmaster for this site

I got this error once in an upgrade, it was a file permissions issue. 
Did you run check_perms?


From malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk  Fri Nov  1 10:33:16 2013
From: malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk (Malcolm Austen)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 09:33:16 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.15 cPanel issue
In-Reply-To: <op.w5t3ggxmg14ka7@mavivo>
References: <op.w5t3ggxmg14ka7@mavivo>
Message-ID: <op.w5u55qoyg14ka7@mavivo>

Thanks Mark and Brian for your responses on this. My cPanel hosts have now  
corrected the permissions on the files and all is sweetness and light  
again :-)

= Malcolm.

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:37:18 -0000, Malcolm Austen  
<malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk> wrote:

> Yes, I know you can't support cPanel installations but you may have some  
> ideas that will be useful when I finally resort to sending in a support  
> request that may get nothing better than a 'delete & recreate' response  
> :-(
>
> I think my cPanel provider has just upgraded to MM 2.1.15 and I have  
> found that I have a problem ...
>
> I had changed the list-info and user-options pages and now, not only do  
> those pages result in 'Bug in Mailman version 2.1.15' displays, so do my  
> attempts to edit them through the admin interface.
>
> I have noticed that a cPanel backup logs 4 sets (I have 4 lists) of  
> permission failures for my lists suggesting that the pages I have  
> changed no longer have the right permissions.
>
> I seem not to have file level access to the mailman hierarchy, so I  
> guess I need advice as to what permissions I need to ask them to  
> manually set on which files or folders. I'd like to make my request  
> specific enough to avoid having the lists reset and the archives and/or  
> membership lists discarded.
>
> Thanks for any advice, Malcolm.
>


-- 
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

From Martin_Hugo at hboe.org  Fri Nov  1 15:27:58 2013
From: Martin_Hugo at hboe.org (Martin Hugo)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 14:27:58 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Upgrade Mailman 2.1.13 to 2.1.16
Message-ID: <70D7A4219FE365439DA53582BA6D8F2E0103ED8F69@HCSD-MAIL2>

Hi All,

We are running Mailman 2.1.13 (on Ubuntu) and have been for some time.  Recently the SPAM bots have been hitting our subscription addresses so hard the bounces have tripped the filters at Microsoft and blocked a couple of lists addresses until I get them to unblock them.  It looks like an upgrade to 2.1.16 might go some way to mitigate this.

Unfortunately, Mailman has been running so well for so long, I have forgotten most of what I did to install it in the first place :(

Can anyone point me at a good tutorial on how to upgrade from 2.1.13 to 2.1.16?

Thanks very much.

Marty

From sascha at rissel.it  Fri Nov  1 15:45:06 2013
From: sascha at rissel.it (Sascha Rissel)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 15:45:06 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question on Upgrading
Message-ID: <CAKGvnEDwtmhsBPqm0snopGD_k8a+-HNqbFYk4kM8_OPfXZY93Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hello there,

recently I rented my first own vServer to have my own Mailman running.
The server runs Debian and Plesk panel.
Plesk offered an easy installation of mailman 2.1.13. After some further
manual configuration, the system is running fine. :-)

Now I'd like to upgrade to latest Mailman 2.1.16.

Is there any help reliable help on how to build and install the upgrade?
I found: http://www.linux-sxs.org/internet_serving/mailman.html, but I am
not sure, where this suits my needs...

Do you have any hints for me?

Thanks in advance,
Sascha.

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov  1 15:48:21 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 07:48:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] issue with QMailToaster Mailman implementation
In-Reply-To: <af977003a0b57cb07ce1acd0591954da@garden-life.org>
References: <af977003a0b57cb07ce1acd0591954da@garden-life.org>
Message-ID: <5273BF35.6070208@msapiro.net>

On 10/31/2013 10:23 AM, Fabian Santiago wrote:
> 
> It all seems to function well except for one thing; when I send email to
> 'mailman-owner at lists.photoblogverona.com', I receive back a failure
> notice stating:
> 
> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mail.photoblogverona.com.
> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following
> addresses.
> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
> 
> <postmaster at lists.photoblogverona.com>:
> This message is looping: it already has my Delivered-To line. (#5.4.6)


It appears that the list's 'owner' address is
<postmaster at lists.photoblogverona.com>. Can you successfully mail
directly to that address or to whatever address is listed as the list's
owner (note that this should be a fully qualified address, e.g.
'postmaster at photoblogverona.com', not just 'postmaster')? If not, this
is not a Mailman issue at all.

If you can mail directly to that address, then the issue may be the way
mail is delivered to -owner. The MTA will first deliver the mail by
piping it to Mailman's mail wrapper for the list -owner. This will
probably result in a

Delivered-To: mailman-owner at lists.photoblogverona.com

being header added then Mailman will resend the mail to the actual
'owner' address. It is possible, but not likely that qmail is confused
by the already added Delivered-To: header. If so, this looks like a
qmail bug.


> I've also emailed the people involved with QMT but figured I would also
> ask here as well. thanks for your help in advance.


They are more likely to be able to help as this is probably a qmail issue.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov  1 16:13:58 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 08:13:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Upgrade Mailman 2.1.13 to 2.1.16
In-Reply-To: <70D7A4219FE365439DA53582BA6D8F2E0103ED8F69@HCSD-MAIL2>
References: <70D7A4219FE365439DA53582BA6D8F2E0103ED8F69@HCSD-MAIL2>
Message-ID: <5273C536.5090305@msapiro.net>

On 11/01/2013 07:27 AM, Martin Hugo wrote:
> 
> Can anyone point me at a good tutorial on how to upgrade from 2.1.13 to 2.1.16?


If you still have the original directory in which you unpacked Mailman
2.1.13, look in the config.log file for the "Invocation command line".

Download and unpack 2.1.16 into a new directory.
Configure using the same command as before.
Stop mailman.
As root, run 'make install'.
Start mailman.

If you don't have the original configure command, you'll have to figure
out what options you used. First look in your installed
Mailman/Defaults.py. If PREFIX is other than '/usr/local/mailman', set
it with --prefix=. If VAR-PREFIX is other than the PREFIX value, set it
with --var-prefix=.

Likewise, use --with-mailhost= and --with-urlhost= to set
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_URL_HOST.

See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node7.html> for more info on
configure options.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov  1 16:21:07 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 08:21:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question on Upgrading
In-Reply-To: <CAKGvnEDwtmhsBPqm0snopGD_k8a+-HNqbFYk4kM8_OPfXZY93Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKGvnEDwtmhsBPqm0snopGD_k8a+-HNqbFYk4kM8_OPfXZY93Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5273C6E3.2030007@msapiro.net>

On 11/01/2013 07:45 AM, Sascha Rissel wrote:

> The server runs Debian and Plesk panel.
> Plesk offered an easy installation of mailman 2.1.13. After some further
> manual configuration, the system is running fine. :-)
> 
> Now I'd like to upgrade to latest Mailman 2.1.16.
> 
> Is there any help reliable help on how to build and install the upgrade?


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/tIA9>, in particular "It is
possible to trick Plesk into recognizing newer versions installed
manually but it's not for the faint of heart."

Installing Mailman from source is fairly straightforward and well
documented at <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/index.html>, but
making it work with Plesk may be tricky.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov  1 21:48:32 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 13:48:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Upgrade Mailman 2.1.13 to 2.1.16
In-Reply-To: <70D7A4219FE365439DA53582BA6D8F2E0103ED9300@HCSD-MAIL2>
References: <70D7A4219FE365439DA53582BA6D8F2E0103ED8F69@HCSD-MAIL2>
 <5273C536.5090305@msapiro.net>
 <70D7A4219FE365439DA53582BA6D8F2E0103ED9300@HCSD-MAIL2>
Message-ID: <527413A0.3080804@msapiro.net>

On 11/01/2013 01:32 PM, Martin Hugo wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> Thanks very much.  Was able to update with no errors reported during the process.  However, when I now go to the listinfo page I get the Bug in Mailman version 2.1.16 page.  Also messages to lists are being returned undeliverable.

What's in Mailman's error log? What's in the MTA logs regarding the
undeliverable messages?

If there are permissions issues, run Mailman's bin/check_perms.

If there are group mismatch errors, see <http://wiki.list.org/x/tYA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de  Mon Nov  4 12:56:41 2013
From: Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de (Peter Heitzer)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 12:56:41 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to programmatically disable all mail to member
Message-ID: <527799890200002C00017C8F@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>

We do not delete student or staff accounts immediately but set them disabled for about 6 month
before deleting the accounts. While an account if disabled its mail address is no longer in the
mta's alias tables and so any mail from a mailman list the user is subscribed to will bounce.
I want to prevent such bounces and like to disable any mail for a member without having to
remove the membership.
I did not find a method for this with the supplied commandline utilities so I assume I have
to write my own using the 'with_list' command.
What are the appropriate variables I have to set for the member I wish to disable?
I think I have to disable both mail delivery and automatic password reminders.

Thanks in advance



From odhiambo at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 13:12:24 2013
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 15:12:24 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to programmatically disable all mail to
	member
In-Reply-To: <527799890200002C00017C8F@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
References: <527799890200002C00017C8F@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WNczeVFUBCy2AtVBS6kLZZTYjd1HT6fiwxQ405pUB90bQ@mail.gmail.com>

If the mail to a disabled account is set to bounce, then why have that
account in the 1st place?
Well, I guess you are preserving some mail or something, but if you
are not accepting new mail, I believe it is easier to send such mail
to /dev/null using the MTA than changing anything in Mailman.
Still looking at it, why don't you just unsubscribe the address from
Mailman, because it's useless anyway?

On 4 November 2013 14:56, Peter Heitzer
<Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de> wrote:
> We do not delete student or staff accounts immediately but set them disabled for about 6 month
> before deleting the accounts. While an account if disabled its mail address is no longer in the
> mta's alias tables and so any mail from a mailman list the user is subscribed to will bounce.
> I want to prevent such bounces and like to disable any mail for a member without having to
> remove the membership.
> I did not find a method for this with the supplied commandline utilities so I assume I have
> to write my own using the 'with_list' command.
> What are the appropriate variables I have to set for the member I wish to disable?
> I think I have to disable both mail delivery and automatic password reminders.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/odhiambo%40gmail.com



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
"I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler."

From frankly3d at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 13:19:38 2013
From: frankly3d at gmail.com (Frank Murphy)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 12:19:38 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to programmatically disable all mail to
 member
In-Reply-To: <527799890200002C00017C8F@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
References: <527799890200002C00017C8F@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
Message-ID: <527790dc.041d980a.74c1.5883@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 04 Nov 2013 12:56:41 +0100
"Peter Heitzer" <Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de> wrote:

> We do not delete student or staff accounts immediately but set them
> disabled for about 6 month before deleting the accounts. While an
> account if disabled its mail address is no longer in the mta's
> alias tables and so any mail from a mailman list the user is
> subscribed to will bounce. 

Maybe set such users to nomail?

-- 
Regards,
Frank 
www.frankly3d.com


From Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de  Mon Nov  4 13:34:17 2013
From: Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de (Peter Heitzer)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 13:34:17 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to programmatically disable all mail to
 member
In-Reply-To: <527790dc.041d980a.74c1.5883@mx.google.com>
References: <527799890200002C00017C8F@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
 <527790dc.041d980a.74c1.5883@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5277A2590200002C00017C9C@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>

>>> On 11/4/2013 at 13:19, Frank Murphy <frankly3d at gmail.com> wrote: 
> On Mon, 04 Nov 2013 12:56:41 +0100
> "Peter Heitzer" <Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de> wrote:
> 
>> We do not delete student or staff accounts immediately but set them
>> disabled for about 6 month before deleting the accounts. While an
>> account if disabled its mail address is no longer in the mta's
>> alias tables and so any mail from a mailman list the user is
>> subscribed to will bounce. 
> 
> Maybe set such users to nomail?
I think that is not sufficient as the member still can get password reminder mails.





From odhiambo at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 13:55:31 2013
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 15:55:31 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to programmatically disable all mail to
	member
In-Reply-To: <5277A2590200002C00017C9C@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
References: <527799890200002C00017C8F@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
 <527790dc.041d980a.74c1.5883@mx.google.com>
 <5277A2590200002C00017C9C@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WPH5VLyVcLjWdb-1MxodkELAtkTXQnJ2BhpOgTpoPWkNQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's easier to use your MTA's aliases file to send the e-mails to the
disabled account to /dev/null. If you happen to revive them, then make
the removal of the entry in the aliases file part of the reactivation
procedure. It's the easiest - me thinks!


On 4 November 2013 15:34, Peter Heitzer
<Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de> wrote:
>>>> On 11/4/2013 at 13:19, Frank Murphy <frankly3d at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 04 Nov 2013 12:56:41 +0100
>> "Peter Heitzer" <Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de> wrote:
>>
>>> We do not delete student or staff accounts immediately but set them
>>> disabled for about 6 month before deleting the accounts. While an
>>> account if disabled its mail address is no longer in the mta's
>>> alias tables and so any mail from a mailman list the user is
>>> subscribed to will bounce.
>>
>> Maybe set such users to nomail?
> I think that is not sufficient as the member still can get password reminder mails.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/odhiambo%40gmail.com



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
"I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler."

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov  4 15:03:06 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 06:03:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to programmatically disable all mail to
	member
In-Reply-To: <5277A2590200002C00017C9C@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
References: <527799890200002C00017C8F@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
 <527790dc.041d980a.74c1.5883@mx.google.com>
 <5277A2590200002C00017C9C@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
Message-ID: <3517681a-0958-4686-8bab-64636d6f55f8@email.android.com>

Peter Heitzer <Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de> wrote:
>>>> On 11/4/2013 at 13:19, Frank Murphy <frankly3d at gmail.com> wrote: 

>> Maybe set such users to nomail?
>I think that is not sufficient as the member still can get password
>reminder mails.


See <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/set_nomail.py> for a script to set a user to no mail and turn off her reminders.



-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

From Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de  Mon Nov  4 15:40:12 2013
From: Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de (Peter Heitzer)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 15:40:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to programmatically disable all mail to
 member
In-Reply-To: <3517681a-0958-4686-8bab-64636d6f55f8@email.android.com>
References: <527799890200002C00017C8F@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
 <527790dc.041d980a.74c1.5883@mx.google.com>
 <5277A2590200002C00017C9C@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>
 <3517681a-0958-4686-8bab-64636d6f55f8@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <5277BFDC0200002C00017CB0@gwsmtp1.uni-regensburg.de>

>>> On 11/4/2013 at 15:03, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote: 
> Peter Heitzer <Peter.Heitzer at rz.uni-regensburg.de> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/4/2013 at 13:19, Frank Murphy <frankly3d at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
>>> Maybe set such users to nomail?
>>I think that is not sufficient as the member still can get password
>>reminder mails.
> 
> 
> See <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/set_nomail.py> for a script to set a user 
> to no mail and turn off her reminders.
Thanks Mark, 
that's exactly what I intended to program by myself.




From subads at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 18:43:55 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 11:43:55 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I just moved our mailman to a new server, but I can't start mailman--I keep
getting the following message:

Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman

I do have a list named mailman moved over, and have moved over about 30
lists.

Does anyone have any idea? Thanks!

Charles

From subads at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 18:51:32 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 11:51:32 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>

Adam,

Thanks! list_lists shows all my lists though. Any idea?


Charles



On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Adam McGreggor <adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk>wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 11:43:55AM -0600, c cc wrote:
> > I just moved our mailman to a new server, but I can't start mailman--I
> keep
> > getting the following message:
> >
> > Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman
> >
> > I do have a list named mailman moved over, and have moved over about 30
> > lists.
> >
> > Does anyone have any idea? Thanks!
>
> I would imagine there to be a path issue; is the output of list_lists
> what you expect it to be?
>
> --
> "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
>  languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
>  pockets for new vocabulary."
>     -- Booker T. Washington
>

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Mon Nov  4 18:47:18 2013
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 17:47:18 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 11:43:55AM -0600, c cc wrote:
> I just moved our mailman to a new server, but I can't start mailman--I keep
> getting the following message:
> 
> Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman
> 
> I do have a list named mailman moved over, and have moved over about 30
> lists.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea? Thanks!

I would imagine there to be a path issue; is the output of list_lists
what you expect it to be?

-- 
"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
 languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
 pockets for new vocabulary." 
    -- Booker T. Washington

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Mon Nov  4 19:18:40 2013
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 18:18:40 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 11:51:32AM -0600, c cc wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Adam McGreggor <adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk>wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 11:43:55AM -0600, c cc wrote:
> > > I just moved our mailman to a new server, but I can't start mailman--I
> > keep
> > > getting the following message:
> > >
> > > Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman
> > >
> > > I do have a list named mailman moved over, and have moved over about 30
> > > lists.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any idea? Thanks!
> >
> > I would imagine there to be a path issue; is the output of list_lists
> > what you expect it to be?
> >
> Thanks! list_lists shows all my lists though. Any idea?

Permissions (`check_perms`)? Multiple instances of Mailman installed
(`which mailmanctl`, `locate mailmanctl`)?, and the site list not
being found by the one invocing the start.

How are you trying to start Mailman, and if it's say
/etc/init.d/mailman, does that use the correct path?

-- 
"Another sport which wastes unlimited time is Comma-hunting."
    -- Francis Cornford

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Nov  4 19:27:59 2013
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 12:27:59 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1383589679.2158.3.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2013-11-04 at 11:43 -0600, c cc wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just moved our mailman to a new server, but I can't start mailman--I keep
> getting the following message:
> 
> Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman
> 
> I do have a list named mailman moved over, and have moved over about 30
> lists.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea? Thanks!

Check VAR_PREFIX in your Defaults.py file and see if it corresponds to
the same setting on the system from which your lists were moved.

Also check all your log files for clues, especially the Mailman error
log.  Log files will frequently contain helpful information above and
beyond what's reported to stdout or stderr.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Real programmers use butterflies"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |       - xkcd
http://www.fmp.com    |


From subads at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 20:03:18 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 13:03:18 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>

Adam,

I start Mailman using: service start mailman in CENTOS 6.4.

Thanks!

Charles


On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Adam McGreggor <adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk>wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 11:51:32AM -0600, c cc wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Adam McGreggor <
> adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk>wrote:
> > > On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 11:43:55AM -0600, c cc wrote:
> > > > I just moved our mailman to a new server, but I can't start
> mailman--I
> > > keep
> > > > getting the following message:
> > > >
> > > > Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman
> > > >
> > > > I do have a list named mailman moved over, and have moved over about
> 30
> > > > lists.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone have any idea? Thanks!
> > >
> > > I would imagine there to be a path issue; is the output of list_lists
> > > what you expect it to be?
> > >
> > Thanks! list_lists shows all my lists though. Any idea?
>
> Permissions (`check_perms`)? Multiple instances of Mailman installed
> (`which mailmanctl`, `locate mailmanctl`)?, and the site list not
> being found by the one invocing the start.
>
> How are you trying to start Mailman, and if it's say
> /etc/init.d/mailman, does that use the correct path?
>
> --
> "Another sport which wastes unlimited time is Comma-hunting."
>     -- Francis Cornford
>

From subads at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 20:04:06 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 13:04:06 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <1383589679.2158.3.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383589679.2158.3.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZbkEZ6oUW4eEddrhb0UnjcY6Ldj=tp=-CTpcSaRY6iZ0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Lindsay,

Thanks for your suggestions. Yes, the VAR_PREFIX /var/lib/mailman, which is
correct.

Charles


On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com>wrote:

> On Mon, 2013-11-04 at 11:43 -0600, c cc wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I just moved our mailman to a new server, but I can't start mailman--I
> keep
> > getting the following message:
> >
> > Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman
> >
> > I do have a list named mailman moved over, and have moved over about 30
> > lists.
> >
> > Does anyone have any idea? Thanks!
>
> Check VAR_PREFIX in your Defaults.py file and see if it corresponds to
> the same setting on the system from which your lists were moved.
>
> Also check all your log files for clues, especially the Mailman error
> log.  Log files will frequently contain helpful information above and
> beyond what's reported to stdout or stderr.
>
> --
> Lindsay Haisley       | "Real programmers use butterflies"
> FMP Computer Services |
> 512-259-1190          |       - xkcd
> http://www.fmp.com    |
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/subads%40gmail.com
>

From subads at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 20:06:34 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 13:06:34 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZbkEZ6oUW4eEddrhb0UnjcY6Ldj=tp=-CTpcSaRY6iZ0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383589679.2158.3.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAPJSDZbkEZ6oUW4eEddrhb0UnjcY6Ldj=tp=-CTpcSaRY6iZ0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZYyE6SLw9mA0sYpjFxt35HEmegc8NOuj6XMr=nYS-an5w@mail.gmail.com>

In my log, it shows the following:

Nov 04 12:45:59 2013 mailmanctl(18104): Site list is missing: mailman
Nov 04 12:45:59 2013 (18104) Site list is missing: mailman

Any idea?

Thanks!


On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 1:04 PM, c cc <subads at gmail.com> wrote:

> Lindsay,
>
> Thanks for your suggestions. Yes, the VAR_PREFIX /var/lib/mailman, which
> is correct.
>
> Charles
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2013-11-04 at 11:43 -0600, c cc wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I just moved our mailman to a new server, but I can't start mailman--I
>> keep
>> > getting the following message:
>> >
>> > Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman
>> >
>> > I do have a list named mailman moved over, and have moved over about 30
>> > lists.
>> >
>> > Does anyone have any idea? Thanks!
>>
>> Check VAR_PREFIX in your Defaults.py file and see if it corresponds to
>> the same setting on the system from which your lists were moved.
>>
>> Also check all your log files for clues, especially the Mailman error
>> log.  Log files will frequently contain helpful information above and
>> beyond what's reported to stdout or stderr.
>>
>> --
>> Lindsay Haisley       | "Real programmers use butterflies"
>> FMP Computer Services |
>> 512-259-1190          |       - xkcd
>> http://www.fmp.com    |
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>> Searchable Archives:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/subads%40gmail.com
>>
>
>

From jimpop at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 20:28:52 2013
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 14:28:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZYyE6SLw9mA0sYpjFxt35HEmegc8NOuj6XMr=nYS-an5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383589679.2158.3.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAPJSDZbkEZ6oUW4eEddrhb0UnjcY6Ldj=tp=-CTpcSaRY6iZ0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZYyE6SLw9mA0sYpjFxt35HEmegc8NOuj6XMr=nYS-an5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR28AuzXWAGr31svBCNSOytDQt7HszYokGHHCsDX-1QQWA@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 4, 2013 2:07 PM, "c cc" <subads at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In my log, it shows the following:
>
> Nov 04 12:45:59 2013 mailmanctl(18104): Site list is missing: mailman
> Nov 04 12:45:59 2013 (18104) Site list is missing: mailman
>
> Any idea?

$ newlist mailman

-Jim P.

From subads at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 20:42:32 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 13:42:32 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAGfsgR28AuzXWAGr31svBCNSOytDQt7HszYokGHHCsDX-1QQWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383589679.2158.3.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAPJSDZbkEZ6oUW4eEddrhb0UnjcY6Ldj=tp=-CTpcSaRY6iZ0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZYyE6SLw9mA0sYpjFxt35HEmegc8NOuj6XMr=nYS-an5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGfsgR28AuzXWAGr31svBCNSOytDQt7HszYokGHHCsDX-1QQWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZYacQrpvbAtP8xSMB0RJc7UmKeN+14i6mj5pbiyZREdMg@mail.gmail.com>

Jim,

Thanks! But I already had list mailman there.

Charles


On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Jim Popovitch <jimpop at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Nov 4, 2013 2:07 PM, "c cc" <subads at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > In my log, it shows the following:
> >
> > Nov 04 12:45:59 2013 mailmanctl(18104): Site list is missing: mailman
> > Nov 04 12:45:59 2013 (18104) Site list is missing: mailman
> >
> > Any idea?
>
> $ newlist mailman
>
> -Jim P.
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  5 04:45:41 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 19:45:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>

On 11/04/2013 11:03 AM, c cc wrote:
> 
> I start Mailman using: service start mailman in CENTOS 6.4.


Which is almost certainly starting a different Mailman installation than
the one which has your lists.

Start mailman by running 'bin/mailmanctl start' from the same bin/
directory in which bin/list_lists shows your lists.

If that works, then as Adam suggests, fix /etc/init.d/mailman to point
to the Mailman you want. Or, move your lists to the place that the
RedHat/CentOS packaged Mailman it probably runs expects to find them.
(see <http://wiki.list.org/x/KYCB>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Tue Nov  5 10:25:20 2013
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 10:25:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
	leads to duplicate message suppression
Message-ID: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>

Hi!

Mailman re-uses the message-id of the original email. In our case an
exchange user is recipient of two mailing-lists. Both mails are
adressed in the original message, both lists distribute the list, two
emails having the same message-id arrive at the Exchange server, which
seems to discard the second mail.

Who's to blame? Mailman for re-using the message-id? Exchange for
dropping the sencond mail on the floor?

Logs:


Mailman generates two mails (note the different Subject: lines):

Nov  5 07:22:47 webmail postfix/cleanup[14648]: CE5BB4C80: warning: header Subject: [Rundmail Virchow-Klinikum] Nervenarztpokal from localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1];
from=<rundmail-neuro-cvk-bounces+annette.schxxxxxxxx=charite.de at charite.de>
to=<annette.schxxxxxxxx at charite.de> proto=ESMTP helo=<webmail.charite.de>

Nov  5 07:22:50 webmail postfix/cleanup[14650]: 1165D4E03: warning: header Subject: [Rundmail MITTE] Nervenarztpokal from localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1];
from=<rundmail-neuro-ccm-bounces+annette.schxxxxxxxx=charite.de at charite.de>
to=<annette.schxxxxxxxx at charite.de> proto=ESMTP helo=<webmail.charite.de>

and sends them (note the identical message-id in the 250 2.6.0
response):

Nov  5 07:23:29 webmail postfix/smtp[14564]: CE5BB4C80: to=<schxxxxx at exchange.charite.de>, orig_to=<annette.schxxxxxxxx at charite.de>,
relay=s-mx14-ht01.charite.de[10.32.37.105]:25, delay=41, delays=0/39/0.05/2.1, dsn=2.6.0, status=sent (250 2.6.0
<0CFDA44554AB664BB2CAD4064F9C5B409C1C2F331A at EXCHANGE41.charite.de>
[InternalId=22196600] Queued mail for delivery)

Nov  5 07:23:48 webmail postfix/smtp[14576]: 1165D4E03: to=<schxxxxx at exchange.charite.de>, orig_to=<annette.schxxxxxxxx at charite.de>,
relay=s-mx14-ht01.charite.de[10.32.37.105]:25, delay=58, delays=0.01/55/0.06/3.4, dsn=2.6.0, status=sent (250 2.6.0
<0CFDA44554AB664BB2CAD4064F9C5B409C1C2F331A at EXCHANGE41.charite.de>
[InternalId=22196727] Queued mail for delivery)

Exchange only delivers one (the first) to the user's mailbox.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Tue Nov  5 14:42:39 2013
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 08:42:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
Message-ID: <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>

On 11/5/13, 4:25 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Mailman re-uses the message-id of the original email. In our case an
> exchange user is recipient of two mailing-lists. Both mails are
> adressed in the original message, both lists distribute the list, two
> emails having the same message-id arrive at the Exchange server, which
> seems to discard the second mail.
>
> Who's to blame? Mailman for re-using the message-id? Exchange for
> dropping the sencond mail on the floor?
>
This is really a tough problem. Presumably, since mailman doesn't
significantly alter the message (which is one reason it is allowed to
maintain the message-id) it should really matter that the recipient only
gets one copy of the message, or which one.

The source of the problem is that maintaining the message-id is
important for message references which are used for threading to work
well. People who are CC to the message, and use the copy they got
directly, and reply back to the list, will want there reply marked as a
reply to the list message. This REQUIRES that the message given to the
list have the same message-id as the incoming message.

The idea of dropping second copies of messages also can make some sense,
if you already have a message, do you really need a second copy? This is
almost absolutely right if the two copies are due to being listed twice
in the distribution, or the duplication due to automatic verbatim
forwarding from one address to another. It isn't quite so for sure in
the case of mailing list, or if the user wanted to compare things like
received headers to compare path ways. I suspect that the people
implementing this feature really didn't think about the mailing list case.

Note that another use of message-ids, in Usenet, has slightly different
rules, and there it is vital that duplicate message-ids be dropped due
to the fact that a multi-peered server should normally get many
duplicate message-ids from the various peers. But in Usenet, you don't
have the case of a central "mailing list" hub, gathering messages, being
allowed to make administrative changes, and then redistributing. I don't
think Microsoft is reusing Usenet code, but someone may have been
confused by Usenet RFCs, and applied them to email, whose system has a
lot of similarity (and even share some RFCs), but IS a different system.

In conclusion, the fault probably is on the mail system, but they can
probably claim they had good reasons to do it. Hopefully there is a way
to turn off the option if really needed.

This is also a problem with Google, which does the same thing, with no
option to turn it off. The problem more often shows up there by people
wonder why their messages don't make it to the list, because Google
removed the list distributed one, because the poster had a copy of the
message in their outbox.

-- 
Richard Damon


From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Tue Nov  5 14:46:30 2013
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 14:46:30 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <20131105134630.GR27792@charite.de>

* Richard Damon <Richard at Damon-Family.org>:

> This is really a tough problem. Presumably, since mailman doesn't
> significantly alter the message (which is one reason it is allowed to
> maintain the message-id) it should really matter that the recipient only
> gets one copy of the message, or which one.

Yes, only the Subject is slightly being altered.
 
> The idea of dropping second copies of messages also can make some sense,
> if you already have a message, do you really need a second copy? This is
> almost absolutely right if the two copies are due to being listed twice
> in the distribution, or the duplication due to automatic verbatim
> forwarding from one address to another. It isn't quite so for sure in
> the case of mailing list, or if the user wanted to compare things like
> received headers to compare path ways. I suspect that the people
> implementing this feature really didn't think about the mailing list case.

Or the users wants to check if the message has indeed been distributed
via two or more mailing lists!

> In conclusion, the fault probably is on the mail system, but they can
> probably claim they had good reasons to do it. Hopefully there is a way
> to turn off the option if really needed.

There's not way of turning this off on Exchange

From brennan at columbia.edu  Tue Nov  5 15:11:28 2013
From: brennan at columbia.edu (Joseph Brennan)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 09:11:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
Message-ID: <A96B73771622AB18F8890676@JOSEPHs-iMac.local>



--On November 5, 2013 10:25:20 AM +0100 Ralf Hildebrandt 
<Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:

>
> Who's to blame? Mailman for re-using the message-id? Exchange for
> dropping the second mail on the floor?


The messages are duplicates, so they should have the same Message-ID.

Whether to suppress delivery of duplicates is the choice of an end user, or 
a system administrator, or a software designer. I don't know which applies 
to Exchange. But in order to allow the choice, which is correctly a choice 
to be made at the receiving end, the dups have to be sent with the same 
Message-ID.

I wouldn't say 'blame'.

Joseph Brennan
Columbia University I T




From barry at python.org  Tue Nov  5 16:10:27 2013
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 10:10:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <20131105134630.GR27792@charite.de>
Message-ID: <20131105101027.63a5f084@anarchist>

On Nov 05, 2013, at 02:46 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:

>There's not way of turning this off on Exchange

Sounds like the same bit of "helpfulness" that Gmail performs.

http://wiki.list.org/x/2IA9

It's a tough problem, but I think Mailman's retention of the original
Message-Ids is the right-er approach.

Cheers,
-Barry
-------------- next part --------------
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From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Tue Nov  5 16:14:26 2013
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 16:14:26 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <20131105101027.63a5f084@anarchist>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <20131105134630.GR27792@charite.de>
 <20131105101027.63a5f084@anarchist>
Message-ID: <20131105151426.GU27792@charite.de>

* Barry Warsaw <barry at python.org>:
> On Nov 05, 2013, at 02:46 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> 
> >There's not way of turning this off on Exchange
> 
> Sounds like the same bit of "helpfulness" that Gmail performs.
> 
> http://wiki.list.org/x/2IA9
> 
> It's a tough problem, but I think Mailman's retention of the original
> Message-Ids is the right-er approach.

Strictly speaking, all that womand wanted was to know if the message
passed both mailing lists... So she should have more faith :)

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From subads at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 19:34:11 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:34:11 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Thanks! I was able to start using /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl
start--without any problem.

 I have only have one mailman instance installed on this server and now, it
still does not show all my lists though. Any suggestions. Thanks!

Charles


On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/04/2013 11:03 AM, c cc wrote:
> >
> > I start Mailman using: service start mailman in CENTOS 6.4.
>
>
> Which is almost certainly starting a different Mailman installation than
> the one which has your lists.
>
> Start mailman by running 'bin/mailmanctl start' from the same bin/
> directory in which bin/list_lists shows your lists.
>
> If that works, then as Adam suggests, fix /etc/init.d/mailman to point
> to the Mailman you want. Or, move your lists to the place that the
> RedHat/CentOS packaged Mailman it probably runs expects to find them.
> (see <http://wiki.list.org/x/KYCB>.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/subads%40gmail.com
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  5 19:44:20 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 10:44:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>	<527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>

On 11/05/2013 10:34 AM, c cc wrote:
> 
> Thanks! I was able to start using /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl
> start--without any problem.


So 'service mailman start' which runs the script at /etc/init.d/mailman
(or /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman) is running a different mailmanctl. Look at
that script and its included files see what mailmanctl it runs.


>  I have only have one mailman instance installed on this server and now,
> it still does not show all my lists though. Any suggestions. Thanks!


How did you move your lists from the old server? where are they? what
does 'sudo find / -name mailman' show?

What doesn't show all your list?. At
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2013-November/075718.html>
you said 'list_lists shows all my lists'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From subads at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 20:14:13 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:14:13 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

It seems like /etc/init.d/mailman and /etc/rc.d/mailman both are runing
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl, as you can you below:

MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman
MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl

Here how I moved my lists over to the new server:

1. I renamed the /usr/lib/mailman to mailman.org
2. ln -s /mnt/ebs/volume/mailman /var/lib/mailman
3 tarred up the /usr/lib/mailman/* mailman directory in the old server
4.then  untarred archives, data, lists, and spam folders to the
//mnt/ebs-volume/mailman folder, which is linked to the /usr/lib/mailman
folder.

]# sudo find / -name mailman
/usr/lib/mailman
/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman
/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/mailman
/var/spool/mailman
/var/lib/mailman
/var/run/mailman
/var/log/mailman
/var/lock/mailman
/mnt/ebs-volume/mailman
/mnt/ebs-volume/mailman/lists/list_name_from_old_dns/lib/mailman
/mnt/ebs-volume/mailman/lists/mailman
/mnt/ebs-volume/mailman/archives/private/mailman
/mnt/ebs-volume/mailman/archives/public/mailman
/mnt/ebs-volume/mailman/archives/archive_from_old_dns/lib/mailman
/etc/cron.d/mailman
/etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman
/etc/mailman
/etc/smrsh/mailman
/etc/logrotate.d/mailman


Using the command line list_lists, it does show all the list, but the lists
do not show up on the web interface. I apologize for the confusion. Once
again, thanks for your help.

Charles










On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/05/2013 10:34 AM, c cc wrote:
> >
> > Thanks! I was able to start using /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl
> > start--without any problem.
>
>
> So 'service mailman start' which runs the script at /etc/init.d/mailman
> (or /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman) is running a different mailmanctl. Look at
> that script and its included files see what mailmanctl it runs.
>
>
> >  I have only have one mailman instance installed on this server and now,
> > it still does not show all my lists though. Any suggestions. Thanks!
>
>
> How did you move your lists from the old server? where are they? what
> does 'sudo find / -name mailman' show?
>
> What doesn't show all your list?. At
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2013-November/075718.html
> >
> you said 'list_lists shows all my lists'.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Tue Nov  5 20:46:22 2013
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 13:46:22 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1383680782.20384.33.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2013-11-05 at 13:14 -0600, c cc wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> It seems like /etc/init.d/mailman and /etc/rc.d/mailman both are runing
> /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl, as you can you below:
> 
> MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman
> MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl
> 
> Here how I moved my lists over to the new server:

FWIW, here are the two scripts I use to move Mailman accounts, with
their archives, from one computer to another.  I've never had a single
problem when using them and have moved a lot of lists with them.

The first script creates an gzip archive of the list in /tmp, plus a
marker file indicating whether or not the list's posting archive is
public or private.  It's called /usr/local/sbin/tar_list.sh and gets run
by root to tar up the list's files.

        #!/bin/sh
        if [ "$1" = "" ]; then
        	echo 'Usage: tar_list.sh <listname>'
        	exit
        fi
        
        if [ ! -e /var/lib/mailman/lists/$1 ]; then
        	echo "$1: No such list!"
        	exit
        fi
        
        mkdir /tmp/$1
        cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/
        
        echo Creating $1_list.tar.gz ....
        tar -czvf $1_list.tar.gz $1
        mv $1_list.tar.gz /tmp/$1
        
        cd /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/
        
        echo Creating $1_archive.tar.gz ....
        tar -czvf $1_archive.tar.gz $1
        mv  $1_archive.tar.gz /tmp/$1
        
        echo Creating $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz ....
        tar -czvf $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz $1.mbox
        mv $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz /tmp/$1
        
        if [ -L /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/$1 ]; then
        	touch /tmp/$1/$1_archive_is_public
        fi
        
The second script lives in ~mailman/bin on the receiving system and is
called untar_list.sh.  It gets run by the mailman user, which must have
a login shell, even if only temporarily.  If you don't have the root
password on the remote system, or if ssh is forbidden for root, then
change the account name to that of an unprivileged user on line 8 and 9.

        #!/bin/sh
        if [ "$2" = "" ]; then
                echo 'Usage: untar_list.sh <server> <listname>'
                exit
        fi
        
        cd ~/tmp/
        echo "Give root password on remote system ..."
        scp root@$1:/tmp/$2/* .
        cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/
        
        echo ""
        echo "Creating list $2 ..."
        tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_list.tar.gz
        
        cd /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/
        
        echo ""
        echo "Creating archive for $2 ..."
        tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_archive.tar.gz
        
        echo "Creating archive mbox for $1 ..."
        tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_archive_mbox.tar.gz
        
        if [ -e ~/tmp/$2_archive_is_public ]; then
        	ln
        -s /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/$2 /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/$2
        fi
        
        echo""
        echo "If no errors, delete files in ~/tmp and delete /tmp/$2
        directory on remote system"
        
        

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "We have met the enemy and he is us."
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |          -- Pogo
http://www.fmp.com    |


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  5 23:24:13 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 14:24:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>	<527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>	<52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>

On 11/05/2013 11:14 AM, c cc wrote:
> 
> It seems like /etc/init.d/mailman and /etc/rc.d/mailman both are runing
> /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl, as you can you below:


Do you mean /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman? In RedHat/CentOS, /etc/init.d/ is
a symlink to /etc/rc.d/init.d/.


> MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman
> MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl


So are you saying that 'service mailman start', which runs the script at
/etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman, complains about the missing site list, but
'/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start' does not complain?

If so, there must be some file included by /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman that
overrides one of those definitions. Either that, or the mailmanctl that
the script runs is not $MAILMANCTL.


> Here how I moved my lists over to the new server:
> 
> 1. I renamed the /usr/lib/mailman to mailman.org <http://mailman.org>
> 2. ln -s /mnt/ebs/volume/mailman /var/lib/mailman
> 3 tarred up the /usr/lib/mailman/* mailman directory in the old server
> 4.then  untarred archives, data, lists, and spam folders to the
> //mnt/ebs-volume/mailman folder, which is linked to the /usr/lib/mailman
> folder.


Step 2 says /var/lib/mailman, not /usr/lib/mailman. /var/lib/mailman is
the correct path to symlink.


> ]# sudo find / -name mailman


OK


> Using the command line list_lists, it does show all the list, but the
> lists do not show up on the web interface. I apologize for the
> confusion. Once again, thanks for your help.


No lists show up on the web interface or not all lists show up on the
web interface? Are the missing lists accessible if you go to
http://HOSTNAME/mailman/listinfo/LISTNAME and
http://HOSTNAME/mailman/admin/LISTNAME. If so, see the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.17%20Why%20are%20lists%20missing%20from%20the%20listinfo%20page%3F>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov  5 23:53:20 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 14:53:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <20131105151426.GU27792@charite.de>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org> <20131105134630.GR27792@charite.de>
 <20131105101027.63a5f084@anarchist> <20131105151426.GU27792@charite.de>
Message-ID: <527976E0.40408@msapiro.net>

On 11/05/2013 07:14 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> 
> Strictly speaking, all that womand wanted was to know if the message
> passed both mailing lists... So she should have more faith :)


In cases like this, I suggest that the user check the list's archive.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From subads at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 00:55:56 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:55:56 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Here what I just found out:

I removed and reinstalled mailman again and just created a list named
mailman--it works fine. But mailman wont' start as soon as I migrated the
old lists over to the new server.

Is it possible that the old lists are not compatible? By the way, the
mailman version on the old server is 2..1.9 and the version on the new
server is 2.1.12. Any suggestions and help would be appreciated.


Once again, thanks for your help and patience.

Chalres






On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/05/2013 11:14 AM, c cc wrote:
> >
> > It seems like /etc/init.d/mailman and /etc/rc.d/mailman both are runing
> > /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl, as you can you below:
>
>
> Do you mean /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman? In RedHat/CentOS, /etc/init.d/ is
> a symlink to /etc/rc.d/init.d/.
>
>
> > MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman
> > MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl
>
>
> So are you saying that 'service mailman start', which runs the script at
> /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman, complains about the missing site list, but
> '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start' does not complain?
>
> If so, there must be some file included by /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman that
> overrides one of those definitions. Either that, or the mailmanctl that
> the script runs is not $MAILMANCTL.
>
>
> > Here how I moved my lists over to the new server:
> >
> > 1. I renamed the /usr/lib/mailman to mailman.org <http://mailman.org>
> > 2. ln -s /mnt/ebs/volume/mailman /var/lib/mailman
> > 3 tarred up the /usr/lib/mailman/* mailman directory in the old server
> > 4.then  untarred archives, data, lists, and spam folders to the
> > //mnt/ebs-volume/mailman folder, which is linked to the /usr/lib/mailman
> > folder.
>
>
> Step 2 says /var/lib/mailman, not /usr/lib/mailman. /var/lib/mailman is
> the correct path to symlink.
>
>
> > ]# sudo find / -name mailman
>
>
> OK
>
>
> > Using the command line list_lists, it does show all the list, but the
> > lists do not show up on the web interface. I apologize for the
> > confusion. Once again, thanks for your help.
>
>
> No lists show up on the web interface or not all lists show up on the
> web interface? Are the missing lists accessible if you go to
> http://HOSTNAME/mailman/listinfo/LISTNAME and
> http://HOSTNAME/mailman/admin/LISTNAME. If so, see the FAQ at
> <
> http://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.17%20Why%20are%20lists%20missing%20from%20the%20listinfo%20page%3F
> >.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov  6 00:59:22 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 08:59:22 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <87zjpijt7p.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Note that the subject is incorrect.  Mailman is not reusing the
Message-ID, it is refusing to alter it which is correct behavior
according to RFC 5322 (Message-ID is an originator field).

I believe that according to RFC 5322 (and predecessors) Mailman SHOULD
add a Resent-Message-ID to indicate that it handled the message, but I
doubt this would change the duplicate-suppression behavior of Gmail
and MS Exchange.

Richard Damon writes:

 > This is really a tough problem.

For us, there's nothing tough about it.  Gmail is the wrong MUA to use
if you want to compare mail received by different routes including the
"null" route, otherwise it does what most users want.[1]  Microsoft
Exchange is not a conformant MTA, no surprise there -- it's not
designed to be a conformant MTA.  It's intended to be a complete
internal communication solution, and where that conflicts with RFC
conformance, the RFCs lose.  Users will need to find ways to defend
themselves against its vagaries -- there's nothing Mailman can do
without breaking the world.

 > someone [at Microsoft] may have been confused by Usenet RFCs, and
 > applied them to email, whose system has a lot of similarity (and
 > even share some RFCs), but IS a different system.

It's highly unlikely that Microsoft thought past "users don't like
dealing with duplicates, and in our environment where people send 10MB
attachments to ALL, they can actually crash the mail system".

Just tell the user that Gmail is not a good MUA if you want to be able
to check on sent mail without asking the recipient directly, and that
Microsoft products deliberately trade reliable delivery in the
Internet sense for what the developers consider to be the convenience
of their users.


Footnotes: 
[1]  It's surprisingly difficult to handle duplicates truly gracefully.
For example, I personally consider the mailing list copy to be the
"canonical" copy of a post, but direct CCs often arrive more quickly.
In many cases there has been sufficient delay that the first copy to
arrive has already been filed in an "archive" folder by the time the
duplicate arrives.  This doesn't make naive duplicate suppression any
harder, but it does complicate maintenance of "canonical" copies in my
archive folders.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov  6 01:05:49 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 09:05:49 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <20131105151426.GU27792@charite.de>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <20131105134630.GR27792@charite.de>
 <20131105101027.63a5f084@anarchist>
 <20131105151426.GU27792@charite.de>
Message-ID: <87y552jswy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Ralf Hildebrandt writes:

 > Strictly speaking, all that womand wanted was to know if the message
 > passed both mailing lists... So she should have more faith :)

For lists hosted by the same Mailman, Mailman 3 might be able to
handle this by adding *both* List-Ids to the header, and only adding
the (other) RFC 2369 headers for the list(s) the user is subscribed
to.  Of course this requires personalization, but that seems to be
less and less a problem these days.

If that solution is interesting to anybody, please let me know, and
I'll check the relevant RFCs to see if multiple values are permissible
for List-* headers (and for which ones).  Code of course will depend
on Barry's permission, but I suppose he wouldn't object to providing
it as an option.

Also of course, it's only a partial solution, as separate Mailman
installations won't be able to coordinate.


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov  6 01:57:49 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 16:57:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>	<527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>	<52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>	<5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>

On 11/05/2013 03:55 PM, c cc wrote:
> 
> Is it possible that the old lists are not compatible? By the way, the
> mailman version on the old server is 2..1.9 and the version on the new
> server is 2.1.12. Any suggestions and help would be appreciated.


Not likely and not if you can open the old list's listinfo pages
<http://HOSTNAME/mailman/listinfo/LISTNAME>.

Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start' will
successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about
the missing site list? If so, they must not be running the same mailmanctl.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From subads at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 02:19:56 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 19:19:56 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Let me clarify this: No, I can't open the old list's listinfo page, but I
can see the list using list_lists command.

When I did the fresh installation and created the "mailman" list before
moving any old lists over, I was able to start mailman using: service
mailman start.
 As soon I moved any old list over to the new server, that command (service
mailman start) no longer worked so did the web interface.

Is it possible that the old lists had overwritten something?

"Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/
mailmanctl start' will
successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about
the missing site list?"

Yes

Thanks!

Charles


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/05/2013 03:55 PM, c cc wrote:
> >
> > Is it possible that the old lists are not compatible? By the way, the
> > mailman version on the old server is 2..1.9 and the version on the new
> > server is 2.1.12. Any suggestions and help would be appreciated.
>
>
> Not likely and not if you can open the old list's listinfo pages
> <http://HOSTNAME/mailman/listinfo/LISTNAME>.
>
> Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start' will
> successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about
> the missing site list? If so, they must not be running the same mailmanctl.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov  6 02:39:58 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 17:39:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>	<527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>	<52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>	<5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>	<5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>

On 11/05/2013 05:19 PM, c cc wrote:
> 
> Let me clarify this: No, I can't open the old list's listinfo page, but
> I can see the list using list_lists command.


OK.


> When I did the fresh installation and created the "mailman" list before
> moving any old lists over, I was able to start mailman using: service
> mailman start.


And at that point, where was the lists/mailman/config.pck file?


>  As soon I moved any old list over to the new server, that command
> (service mailman start) no longer worked so did the web interface.


And to where did you move those losts/LISTNAME/config.pck files.

And what else did you move. My best guess is this process overwrote some
critical path or symlink.

> Is it possible that the old lists had overwritten something?


Not the lists/LISTNAME/config.pck files themselves, but something else
you did.


> "Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/
> mailmanctl start' will
> successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about
> the missing site list?"
> 
> Yes


Then the service script must be running a different mailmanctl.

If this were my server, I'd 'sudo yum remove mailman', install Mailman
2.1.16 from source and move the list's config.pck files, but this could
cause SeLinux issues if you're running that.

I am happy to continue to work with you on this, but I'm shortly going
off line for about 48 hours, so I may not be responsive during that period.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From subads at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 02:56:56 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 19:56:56 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZb=XvOF-JD5a38GYxmEJQ4Ap3Yqz7KhukNTrKN4fMYahw@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Thanks!
"And at that point, where was the lists/mailman/config.pck file?"

I assume it was in /var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/config.pck because I did
not move the config file when I moved the old list over.

"And to where did you move those losts/LISTNAME/config.pck files."

I move the whole list folder over to /var/lib/mailman list/nameofthelist;
and the config.pck file was in the director.

"If this were my server, I'd 'sudo yum remove mailman', install Mailman
2.1.16 from source and move the list's config.pck files, but this could
cause SeLinux issues if you're running that."

At this point, this is not an option because my manager does not want to
compile from source.

"I am happy to continue to work with you on this, but I'm shortly going
off line for about 48 hours, so I may not be responsive during that period."

Sure! Once again, thanks for your time; I really appreciate it.

Charles


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/05/2013 05:19 PM, c cc wrote:
> >
> > Let me clarify this: No, I can't open the old list's listinfo page, but
> > I can see the list using list_lists command.
>
>
> OK.
>
>
> > When I did the fresh installation and created the "mailman" list before
> > moving any old lists over, I was able to start mailman using: service
> > mailman start.
>
>
>
And at that point, where was the lists/mailman/config.pck file?
>
>
>


> >  As soon I moved any old list over to the new server, that command
> > (service mailman start) no longer worked so did the web interface.
>
>
> And to where did you move those losts/LISTNAME/config.pck files.
>
> And what else did you move. My best guess is this process overwrote some
> critical path or symlink.
>
> > Is it possible that the old lists had overwritten something?
>
>
> Not the lists/LISTNAME/config.pck files themselves, but something else
> you did.
>
>
> > "Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/
> > mailmanctl start' will
> > successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about
> > the missing site list?"
> >
> > Yes
>
>
> Then the service script must be running a different mailmanctl.
>
> If this were my server, I'd 'sudo yum remove mailman', install Mailman
> 2.1.16 from source and move the list's config.pck files, but this could
> cause SeLinux issues if you're running that.
>
> I am happy to continue to work with you on this, but I'm shortly going
> off line for about 48 hours, so I may not be responsive during that period.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From subads at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 03:18:32 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 20:18:32 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZb=XvOF-JD5a38GYxmEJQ4Ap3Yqz7KhukNTrKN4fMYahw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZb=XvOF-JD5a38GYxmEJQ4Ap3Yqz7KhukNTrKN4fMYahw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZZoLE_22RiLzkbdX4sH527hp8f+wjNdHzT95+F86haMdg@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

I am not sure this would help; I got this error message in
/var/log/mailman/error

IOError reading list extension: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
'/var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/extend.py'
Nov 05 20:16:53 2013 mailmanctl(31641): Site list is missing: mailman

Thanks,

Charles


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 7:56 PM, c cc <subads at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> Thanks!
>
> "And at that point, where was the lists/mailman/config.pck file?"
>
> I assume it was in /var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/config.pck because I did
> not move the config file when I moved the old list over.
>
> "And to where did you move those losts/LISTNAME/config.pck files."
>
> I move the whole list folder over to /var/lib/mailman list/nameofthelist;
> and the config.pck file was in the director.
>
> "If this were my server, I'd 'sudo yum remove mailman', install Mailman
> 2.1.16 from source and move the list's config.pck files, but this could
> cause SeLinux issues if you're running that."
>
> At this point, this is not an option because my manager does not want to
> compile from source.
>
> "I am happy to continue to work with you on this, but I'm shortly going
> off line for about 48 hours, so I may not be responsive during that
> period."
>
> Sure! Once again, thanks for your time; I really appreciate it.
>
> Charles
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/05/2013 05:19 PM, c cc wrote:
>> >
>> > Let me clarify this: No, I can't open the old list's listinfo page, but
>> > I can see the list using list_lists command.
>>
>>
>> OK.
>>
>>
>> > When I did the fresh installation and created the "mailman" list before
>> > moving any old lists over, I was able to start mailman using: service
>> > mailman start.
>>
>>
>>
> And at that point, where was the lists/mailman/config.pck file?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>> >  As soon I moved any old list over to the new server, that command
>> > (service mailman start) no longer worked so did the web interface.
>>
>>
>> And to where did you move those losts/LISTNAME/config.pck files.
>>
>> And what else did you move. My best guess is this process overwrote some
>> critical path or symlink.
>>
>> > Is it possible that the old lists had overwritten something?
>>
>>
>> Not the lists/LISTNAME/config.pck files themselves, but something else
>> you did.
>>
>>
>> > "Is is still the case that '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/
>> > mailmanctl start' will
>> > successfully start mailman, but 'service mailman start' complains about
>> > the missing site list?"
>> >
>> > Yes
>>
>>
>> Then the service script must be running a different mailmanctl.
>>
>> If this were my server, I'd 'sudo yum remove mailman', install Mailman
>> 2.1.16 from source and move the list's config.pck files, but this could
>> cause SeLinux issues if you're running that.
>>
>> I am happy to continue to work with you on this, but I'm shortly going
>> off line for about 48 hours, so I may not be responsive during that
>> period.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>>
>
>

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Wed Nov  6 03:22:59 2013
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 21:22:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <87zjpijt7p.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>	<5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <87zjpijt7p.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <5279A803.1070404@Damon-Family.org>

On 11/5/13, 6:59 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Note that the subject is incorrect.  Mailman is not reusing the
> Message-ID, it is refusing to alter it which is correct behavior
> according to RFC 5322 (Message-ID is an originator field).
>
> I believe that according to RFC 5322 (and predecessors) Mailman SHOULD
> add a Resent-Message-ID to indicate that it handled the message, but I
> doubt this would change the duplicate-suppression behavior of Gmail
> and MS Exchange.
>
It is not clear to me that mailman should add the Resent-* headers. The
RFC states:

"Resent fields SHOULD be added to any message that is reintroduced by a
user into the transport system."

and later

"They MUST NOT be used in the normal processing of replies or other such
automatic actions on messages."

Mailman isn't really a "user", and is "automatic" so I think the second
clause is more applicable.

-- 
Richard Damon


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov  6 03:29:05 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 18:29:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZZoLE_22RiLzkbdX4sH527hp8f+wjNdHzT95+F86haMdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>	<527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>	<52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>	<5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>	<5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>	<52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZb=XvOF-JD5a38GYxmEJQ4Ap3Yqz7KhukNTrKN4fMYahw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZZoLE_22RiLzkbdX4sH527hp8f+wjNdHzT95+F86haMdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5279A971.5030309@msapiro.net>

On 11/05/2013 06:18 PM, c cc wrote:
> 
> I am not sure this would help; I got this error message in
> /var/log/mailman/error
> 
> IOError reading list extension: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
> '/var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/extend.py'
> Nov 05 20:16:53 2013 mailmanctl(31641): Site list is missing: mailman


You have permissions issues on the stuff you moved.

Are your attempts to access the lists via the web giving "we hit a bug"?

In any case, as root run Mailman's 'bin/check-perms -f'. It tends to
have issues with symlinks and may continue to report issues on the
symlink even though the target is fixed. That will probably help.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From subads at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 03:34:56 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 20:34:56 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <5279A971.5030309@msapiro.net>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZb=XvOF-JD5a38GYxmEJQ4Ap3Yqz7KhukNTrKN4fMYahw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZZoLE_22RiLzkbdX4sH527hp8f+wjNdHzT95+F86haMdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279A971.5030309@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZbugiZth6kG4wQB04mHDi0Z_Q-hDO+v3ia1FA4v2wXdPw@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Yes, we got "we hit a bug" message. Thanks!

Charles


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:29 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/05/2013 06:18 PM, c cc wrote:
> >
> > I am not sure this would help; I got this error message in
> > /var/log/mailman/error
> >
> > IOError reading list extension: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
> > '/var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/extend.py'
> > Nov 05 20:16:53 2013 mailmanctl(31641): Site list is missing: mailman
>
>
> You have permissions issues on the stuff you moved.
>
> Are your attempts to access the lists via the web giving "we hit a bug"?
>
> In any case, as root run Mailman's 'bin/check-perms -f'. It tends to
> have issues with symlinks and may continue to report issues on the
> symlink even though the target is fixed. That will probably help.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From subads at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 03:38:41 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 20:38:41 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZbugiZth6kG4wQB04mHDi0Z_Q-hDO+v3ia1FA4v2wXdPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZb=XvOF-JD5a38GYxmEJQ4Ap3Yqz7KhukNTrKN4fMYahw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZZoLE_22RiLzkbdX4sH527hp8f+wjNdHzT95+F86haMdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279A971.5030309@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbugiZth6kG4wQB04mHDi0Z_Q-hDO+v3ia1FA4v2wXdPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZaUZMXJZn0QbvgQyytQ4BQjM4An-UNtT7Tg27vPukcDtw@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

No luck.

[root at es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f
directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/mail (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/scripts (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/icons (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/bin (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/tests (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/lib (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/japanese
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/korean
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/lib/python2.6 (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/lib/python2.6/site-packages (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/aliases (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/python (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/c
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/mappings (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/korean/python (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/korean/c
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/pythonlib/korean/mappings (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/sr (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/uk (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ia (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ja (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/zh_TW
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/sk (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/nl (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/et (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/vi (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/fi (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/sl (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ro (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/zh_CN
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/gl (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/cs (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/he (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/it (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/hr (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ko (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/pt_BR
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/da (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/sv (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/pt (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/hu (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/pl (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/no (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/lt (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/de (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ca (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ru (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/es (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/tr (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/fr (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/ar (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/messages/eu (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/sr/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/uk/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/ia/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/ja/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/zh_TW/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/sk/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/nl/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/et/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/vi/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/fi/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/sl/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/ro/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/zh_CN/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/gl/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/cs/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/he/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/it/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/hr/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/ko/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/pt_BR/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/da/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/sv/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/pt/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/hu/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/pl/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/no/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/lt/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/de/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/ca/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/ru/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/es/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/tr/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/fr/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/ar/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775:
/usr/lib/mailman/messages/eu/LC_MESSAGES (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/tests/bounces (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/tests/msgs (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Gui (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Commands
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/sr (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/uk (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/ia (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/ja (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/zh_TW
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/sk (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/nl (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/et (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/vi (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/fi (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/sl (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/ro (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/zh_CN
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/gl (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/cs (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/he (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/it (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/en (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/hr (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/ko (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/pt_BR
(fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/da (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/sv (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/pt (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/hu (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/pl (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/no (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/lt (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/de (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/ca (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/ru (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/es (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/tr (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/fr (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/ar (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/eu (fixing)
Warning: Private archive directory is other-executable (o+x).
         This could allow other users on your system to read private
archives.
         If you're on a shared multiuser system, you should consult the
         installation manual on how to fix this.
Problems found: 139
Re-run as mailman (or root) with -f flag to fix
[root at es1 bin]# service mailman start
Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman
                                                           [FAILED]
[root at es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f
Warning: Private archive directory is other-executable (o+x).
         This could allow other users on your system to read private
archives.
         If you're on a shared multiuser system, you should consult the
         installation manual on how to fix this.
No problems found
[root at es1 bin]# service mailman start
Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman
                                                           [FAILED]



On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:34 PM, c cc <subads at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> Yes, we got "we hit a bug" message. Thanks!
>
> Charles
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:29 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/05/2013 06:18 PM, c cc wrote:
>> >
>> > I am not sure this would help; I got this error message in
>> > /var/log/mailman/error
>> >
>> > IOError reading list extension: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
>> > '/var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman/extend.py'
>> > Nov 05 20:16:53 2013 mailmanctl(31641): Site list is missing: mailman
>>
>>
>> You have permissions issues on the stuff you moved.
>>
>> Are your attempts to access the lists via the web giving "we hit a bug"?
>>
>> In any case, as root run Mailman's 'bin/check-perms -f'. It tends to
>> have issues with symlinks and may continue to report issues on the
>> symlink even though the target is fixed. That will probably help.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>>
>
>

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov  6 03:56:43 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 11:56:43 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <5279A803.1070404@Damon-Family.org>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <87zjpijt7p.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <5279A803.1070404@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <87txfqjl04.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Richard Damon writes:

 > It is not clear to me that mailman should add the Resent-* headers. The
 > RFC states:

No, it's not clear to me, either.  I do have a very strong opinion in
favor, to the extent that I would make it an option defaulting to ON.

 > "Resent fields SHOULD be added to any message that is reintroduced by a
 > user into the transport system."

This is relevant, and I agree that it's not clear whether Mailman is a
"user" as referred to by the RFC.  Because the Resent-* headers are
purely informational, I think it's harmless to add them: they're the
non-MTA equivalent of the trace headers added by MTAs.  Mailman is
clearly not part of the "transport system" (it's not an MTA even
though does implement parts of SMTP), and often there is human
intervention ("moderation" and user configuration such as "notmetoo")
in the process of reinserting the message into the transport system.
Based on those facts, I think it's reasonable to strengthen the MAY
implied by "harmless" to SHOULD.

Also, I believe that Resent-From is preferable to unstandardized
mechanisms for detecting loops such as "X-Been-There".

 > and later
 > 
 > "They MUST NOT be used in the normal processing of replies or other
 > such automatic actions on messages."

This isn't relevant.  The "normal processing of replies or other such
automatic actions on messages" referred to here is by the MUA of the
final recipient, *not* the agent that adds the Resent-* headers.  It
means that replies MUST NOT be directed to any Resent-From address
automatically (note there is no Resent-Reply-To), and In-Reply-To and
References MUST NOT be initialized based on any Resent-Message-ID.

Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov  6 05:56:44 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 20:56:44 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZaUZMXJZn0QbvgQyytQ4BQjM4An-UNtT7Tg27vPukcDtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>	<20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>	<CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>	<527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>	<52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>	<5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>	<5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>	<52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZb=XvOF-JD5a38GYxmEJQ4Ap3Yqz7KhukNTrKN4fMYahw@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPJSDZZoLE_22RiLzkbdX4sH527hp8f+wjNdHzT95+F86haMdg@mail.gmail.com>	<5279A971.5030309@msapiro.net>	<CAPJSDZbugiZth6kG4wQB04mHDi0Z_Q-hDO+v3ia1FA4v2wXdPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZaUZMXJZn0QbvgQyytQ4BQjM4An-UNtT7Tg27vPukcDtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5279CC0C.3060703@msapiro.net>

On 11/05/2013 06:38 PM, c cc wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> No luck.
> 
> [root at es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f
> directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing)
...

> directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/eu (fixing)



The permissions issues you have are with /var/lib/mailman/lists/. I
don't know why check_perms is not picking those up.

If you want, you can send me all of /var/lib/mailman/logs/error, but I
won't be able to look at it in detail until Thurs eve.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From slc at publicus.net  Wed Nov  6 02:49:35 2013
From: slc at publicus.net (Steven Clift)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 19:49:35 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with
	Gmail, etc.
Message-ID: <CALAwQWrfGs5KPjN23Qy5BPLigp=m04N4P6xjy0s-H08LFWYe6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Has this been a growing issue with Mailman served lists?

Articles like this sort of explain to rougher territory for legit
email generators:
http://bit.ly/1hhDQo6

We actually use the open source GroupServer.org package (a cousin to
Mailman) and if this is a growing problem, we need some sort of
defense network. If it is not a growing problem with Mailman lists,
then what are you doing right!?

(One factor for us is that we do have a lot of users who post via the
web interface, which Gmail doesn't seem to like.)

Thanks,
Steven Clift
E-Democracy.org

From subads at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 07:34:23 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 00:34:23 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <5279CC0C.3060703@msapiro.net>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZb=XvOF-JD5a38GYxmEJQ4Ap3Yqz7KhukNTrKN4fMYahw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZZoLE_22RiLzkbdX4sH527hp8f+wjNdHzT95+F86haMdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279A971.5030309@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbugiZth6kG4wQB04mHDi0Z_Q-hDO+v3ia1FA4v2wXdPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZaUZMXJZn0QbvgQyytQ4BQjM4An-UNtT7Tg27vPukcDtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279CC0C.3060703@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZYJ1YgczQTL1NvHV=1a4BosP3by2rs3LuOM0k_zDZ6kYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Thanks. I will double check all the permission on /var/lib/mailman/lists/
to make sure that they are all the same with the "mailman" list permission
since that particular list was working fine before I moved the old lists
over.

I will send you the log files to your email tomorrow. Once again, thanks
for your help.

Charles


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/05/2013 06:38 PM, c cc wrote:
> > Mark,
> >
> > No luck.
> >
> > [root at es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f
> > directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing)
> ...
>
> > directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/eu
> (fixing)
>
>
>
> The permissions issues you have are with /var/lib/mailman/lists/. I
> don't know why check_perms is not picking those up.
>
> If you want, you can send me all of /var/lib/mailman/logs/error, but I
> won't be able to look at it in detail until Thurs eve.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov  6 08:04:11 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:04:11 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings
	with	Gmail, etc.
In-Reply-To: <CALAwQWrfGs5KPjN23Qy5BPLigp=m04N4P6xjy0s-H08LFWYe6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAwQWrfGs5KPjN23Qy5BPLigp=m04N4P6xjy0s-H08LFWYe6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87sivaj9jo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Steven Clift writes:

 > Has this been a growing issue with Mailman served lists?

I wouldn't say it's growing.  For quite a while (a decade or so) we
have been getting the occasional request for help in getting mail
delivered to the major freemail services and portals, including Gmail,
Yahoo!, Hotmail, and AOL.  I haven't noticed them getting more
frequent over time, nor have I had problems delivering to them with my
own lists (but I have a really easy set of users to service, most are
admins or oldtimers themselves and tend to blame their freemail
provider, not my lists).

 > If it is not a growing problem with Mailman lists, then what are
 > you doing right!?

Hard to say.  For one thing, Mailman tries very hard to conform to the
relevant RFCs (specifically 5322, 2369, and 2919).

Second, most Mailman lists are set up by professionals, either people
who are quite familiar with mail service including the kinds of things
that keep you from getting labeled as spam, or hosting services.  Not
all of them are completely competent, but most do a pretty good job.
Most implement DKIM and/or SPF, for example.  So there may be a
growing problem, and we just don't hear about it -- the host managers
are dealing with it themselves.

Third, we do have a pretty good FAQ on how to communicate with the big
services to get on their good side.  It's tedious to follow their
rules, but it does work most of the time.

 > (One factor for us is that we do have a lot of users who post via
 > the web interface, which Gmail doesn't seem to like.)

That doesn't surprise me.  I assume that the from address is
"Web.User at home.org" as they are registered with your service.  If your
software is not emitting a correct Sender header, it will look like
the From address is spoofed.  Gmail won't like that.  Make sure that
in this case the Sender header is set appropriately.  (Mailman doesn't
have a web interface, so doesn't have experience with this itself.
The most common third-party interface is Gmane, which does get the
headers right.  Not everybody appreciates Gmane -- they have a habit
of mirroring lists whose owners don't want them mirrored -- but they
do conform to the mail standards.)

Hope this helps.

Steve

From subads at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 08:17:07 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 01:17:07 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZbNU3MT7k=LwFi52dteUvF6Ku=DjtGh62PVMnmTVq+=YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZb=XvOF-JD5a38GYxmEJQ4Ap3Yqz7KhukNTrKN4fMYahw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZZoLE_22RiLzkbdX4sH527hp8f+wjNdHzT95+F86haMdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279A971.5030309@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbugiZth6kG4wQB04mHDi0Z_Q-hDO+v3ia1FA4v2wXdPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZaUZMXJZn0QbvgQyytQ4BQjM4An-UNtT7Tg27vPukcDtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279CC0C.3060703@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZYJ1YgczQTL1NvHV=1a4BosP3by2rs3LuOM0k_zDZ6kYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZbNU3MT7k=LwFi52dteUvF6Ku=DjtGh62PVMnmTVq+=YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZam-N=1agYvOBNrdhXZy8pZTGNTVY=2F9TzO0ZDETHqQg@mail.gmail.com>

withlist -l -r fix_url [listname}

Okay, the lists are there now after I fixed the url. I will let you
know see if it work when I

get back to work tomorrow. Once again, thank you so much for your help and time.

Charles



On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:03 AM, c cc <subads at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> Finally, I was able to get "service mailman start" to work, but in
> www.domain.com/mailman/listinfo only shows the list "mailman", none of my
> old list are showing up.
>
> By the way, SElinux was the culprit, and once it was stopped, I was able
> to start mailman using: service mailman start.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:34 AM, c cc <subads at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Thanks. I will double check all the permission on /var/lib/mailman/lists/
>> to make sure that they are all the same with the "mailman" list permission
>> since that particular list was working fine before I moved the old lists
>> over.
>>
>> I will send you the log files to your email tomorrow. Once again, thanks
>> for your help.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/05/2013 06:38 PM, c cc wrote:
>>> > Mark,
>>> >
>>> > No luck.
>>> >
>>> > [root at es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f
>>> > directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing)
>>> ...
>>>
>>> > directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/eu
>>> (fixing)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The permissions issues you have are with /var/lib/mailman/lists/. I
>>> don't know why check_perms is not picking those up.
>>>
>>> If you want, you can send me all of /var/lib/mailman/logs/error, but I
>>> won't be able to look at it in detail until Thurs eve.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>>>
>>
>>
>

From subads at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 08:03:59 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 01:03:59 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPJSDZYJ1YgczQTL1NvHV=1a4BosP3by2rs3LuOM0k_zDZ6kYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279700D.9020809@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbe+gXRqL=Jk86gXikd5Gc8qnOp1dncRwRw9bV3HOv-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279940D.7010207@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaMComdN6_azNtrmwZPuKRFnZDhVZEF4Svd5ec-QdcT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <52799DEE.7050003@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZb=XvOF-JD5a38GYxmEJQ4Ap3Yqz7KhukNTrKN4fMYahw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZZoLE_22RiLzkbdX4sH527hp8f+wjNdHzT95+F86haMdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279A971.5030309@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbugiZth6kG4wQB04mHDi0Z_Q-hDO+v3ia1FA4v2wXdPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPJSDZaUZMXJZn0QbvgQyytQ4BQjM4An-UNtT7Tg27vPukcDtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5279CC0C.3060703@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZYJ1YgczQTL1NvHV=1a4BosP3by2rs3LuOM0k_zDZ6kYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZbNU3MT7k=LwFi52dteUvF6Ku=DjtGh62PVMnmTVq+=YQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Finally, I was able to get "service mailman start" to work, but in
www.domain.com/mailman/listinfo only shows the list "mailman", none of my
old list are showing up.

By the way, SElinux was the culprit, and once it was stopped, I was able to
start mailman using: service mailman start.


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:34 AM, c cc <subads at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> Thanks. I will double check all the permission on /var/lib/mailman/lists/
> to make sure that they are all the same with the "mailman" list permission
> since that particular list was working fine before I moved the old lists
> over.
>
> I will send you the log files to your email tomorrow. Once again, thanks
> for your help.
>
> Charles
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/05/2013 06:38 PM, c cc wrote:
>> > Mark,
>> >
>> > No luck.
>> >
>> > [root at es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f
>> > directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing)
>> ...
>>
>> > directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/eu
>> (fixing)
>>
>>
>>
>> The permissions issues you have are with /var/lib/mailman/lists/. I
>> don't know why check_perms is not picking those up.
>>
>> If you want, you can send me all of /var/lib/mailman/logs/error, but I
>> won't be able to look at it in detail until Thurs eve.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>>
>
>

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Nov  6 09:26:52 2013
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 09:26:52 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <87y552jswy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <20131105134630.GR27792@charite.de>
 <20131105101027.63a5f084@anarchist>
 <20131105151426.GU27792@charite.de>
 <87y552jswy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20131106082652.GA13297@charite.de>

* Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>:
> Ralf Hildebrandt writes:
> 
>  > Strictly speaking, all that womand wanted was to know if the message
>  > passed both mailing lists... So she should have more faith :)
> 
> For lists hosted by the same Mailman, Mailman 3 might be able to

In my case its two lists on the same mailman instance.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Nov  6 09:49:24 2013
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 09:49:24 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <527976E0.40408@msapiro.net>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <20131105134630.GR27792@charite.de>
 <20131105101027.63a5f084@anarchist>
 <20131105151426.GU27792@charite.de> <527976E0.40408@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20131106084924.GE13297@charite.de>

* Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> On 11/05/2013 07:14 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> > 
> > Strictly speaking, all that womand wanted was to know if the message
> > passed both mailing lists... So she should have more faith :)
> 
> 
> In cases like this, I suggest that the user check the list's archive.

Good point!

Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Nov  6 09:51:00 2013
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 09:51:00 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <87zjpijt7p.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <87zjpijt7p.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20131106085100.GF13297@charite.de>

* Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>:

> Note that the subject is incorrect.  Mailman is not reusing the
> Message-ID, it is refusing to alter it which is correct behavior
> according to RFC 5322 (Message-ID is an originator field).
> 
> I believe that according to RFC 5322 (and predecessors) Mailman SHOULD
> add a Resent-Message-ID to indicate that it handled the message, but I
> doubt this would change the duplicate-suppression behavior of Gmail
> and MS Exchange.

I agree. The duplicate-suppression in Exchange uses both "Message-ID"
and "Date" headers.

> Footnotes: 
> [1]  It's surprisingly difficult to handle duplicates truly gracefully.

Ohhh yes.

> For example, I personally consider the mailing list copy to be the
> "canonical" copy of a post, but direct CCs often arrive more quickly.

Same here. Happens all the time.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From barry at list.org  Wed Nov  6 17:00:01 2013
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:00:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <87y552jswy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <20131105134630.GR27792@charite.de>
 <20131105101027.63a5f084@anarchist>
 <20131105151426.GU27792@charite.de>
 <87y552jswy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20131106110001.1756ea06@anarchist>

On Nov 06, 2013, at 09:05 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>For lists hosted by the same Mailman, Mailman 3 might be able to
>handle this by adding *both* List-Ids to the header, and only adding
>the (other) RFC 2369 headers for the list(s) the user is subscribed
>to.  Of course this requires personalization, but that seems to be
>less and less a problem these days.

MM2.1 adds X-BeenThere headers for every list the message flows through; these
are to prevent loops.  However MM3 got rid of this header in favor of the RFC
2919 List-ID headers.  I took a quick look at that RFC just now and I didn't
see anything about how many List-Id headers a message could have, but from the
discussion it seems to assume there'd only be one header per message.

>If that solution is interesting to anybody, please let me know, and
>I'll check the relevant RFCs to see if multiple values are permissible
>for List-* headers (and for which ones).  Code of course will depend
>on Barry's permission, but I suppose he wouldn't object to providing
>it as an option.

Best to file a bug so we can explore the issue and solutions.  You can then
attach a branch to the bug.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From barry at list.org  Wed Nov  6 17:03:15 2013
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:03:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <20131106085100.GF13297@charite.de>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <87zjpijt7p.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20131106085100.GF13297@charite.de>
Message-ID: <20131106110315.6162fcd9@anarchist>

On Nov 06, 2013, at 09:51 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:

>> I believe that according to RFC 5322 (and predecessors) Mailman SHOULD
>> add a Resent-Message-ID to indicate that it handled the message, but I
>> doubt this would change the duplicate-suppression behavior of Gmail
>> and MS Exchange.

This probably makes sense, so please submit a bug.

>> Footnotes: 
>> [1]  It's surprisingly difficult to handle duplicates truly gracefully.
>
>Ohhh yes.

I've found 'd' in my MUA works about as well as anything. :)

>> For example, I personally consider the mailing list copy to be the
>> "canonical" copy of a post, but direct CCs often arrive more quickly.
>
>Same here. Happens all the time.

Indeed.  It would be great if you could suppress the direct CC, but of course,
that's impossible since Mailman never sees them.  The best you can do is
suppress the list copy, but that isn't a great solution either if your MUA
knows how to do sane things based on the List-* headers.

-Barry

From bsfinkel at att.net  Wed Nov  6 17:40:10 2013
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 10:40:10 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <20131106084924.GE13297@charite.de>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org> <20131105134630.GR27792@charite.de>
 <20131105101027.63a5f084@anarchist> <20131105151426.GU27792@charite.de>
 <527976E0.40408@msapiro.net> <20131106084924.GE13297@charite.de>
Message-ID: <527A70EA.7020401@att.net>

> In cases like this, I suggest that the user check the list's archive.

Only if the list has an archive.

--Barry Finkel


From subads at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 19:35:27 2013
From: subads at gmail.com (c cc)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 12:35:27 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] (solved) unable to start Mailman
Message-ID: <CAPJSDZbB1N4jB_UB3EjYXitwTvL_p+Vy5nBSUHCUog5wUquSBw@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,


It works fine now after I stopped the SELinux. Once again, thanks for your
help.

Charles


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:17 AM, c cc <subads at gmail.com> wrote:

> withlist -l -r fix_url [listname}
>
> Okay, the lists are there now after I fixed the url. I will let you know see if it work when I
>
> get back to work tomorrow. Once again, thank you so much for your help and time.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:03 AM, c cc <subads at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Finally, I was able to get "service mailman start" to work, but in
>> www.domain.com/mailman/listinfo only shows the list "mailman", none of
>> my old list are showing up.
>>
>> By the way, SElinux was the culprit, and once it was stopped, I was able
>> to start mailman using: service mailman start.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:34 AM, c cc <subads at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> Thanks. I will double check all the permission on
>>> /var/lib/mailman/lists/ to make sure that they are all the same with the
>>> "mailman" list permission since that particular list was working fine
>>> before I moved the old lists over.
>>>
>>> I will send you the log files to your email tomorrow. Once again, thanks
>>> for your help.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/05/2013 06:38 PM, c cc wrote:
>>>> > Mark,
>>>> >
>>>> > No luck.
>>>> >
>>>> > [root at es1 bin]# ./check_perms -f
>>>> > directory must be at least 02775: /usr/lib/mailman (fixing)
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> > directory permissions must be 02775: /usr/lib/mailman/templates/eu
>>>> (fixing)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The permissions issues you have are with /var/lib/mailman/lists/. I
>>>> don't know why check_perms is not picking those up.
>>>>
>>>> If you want, you can send me all of /var/lib/mailman/logs/error, but I
>>>> won't be able to look at it in detail until Thurs eve.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>>>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Nov  8 07:27:27 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2013 15:27:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id,
 leads to duplicate message suppression
In-Reply-To: <20131106110315.6162fcd9@anarchist>
References: <20131105092520.GH27792@charite.de>
 <5278F5CF.7040305@Damon-Family.org>
 <87zjpijt7p.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20131106085100.GF13297@charite.de>
 <20131106110315.6162fcd9@anarchist>
Message-ID: <87li0zjtm8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > Indeed.  It would be great if you could suppress the direct CC,

It's not that hard if done in the MUA.  My problem is that Uday keeps
fiddling with the relevant functions in VM and I get merge conflicts
which aren't always trivial to solve. ;-)

From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Wed Nov 13 07:57:06 2013
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 22:57:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What determines mailman webui login duration?
Message-ID: <19CB3C6C-13DF-4EB2-8C8C-AA56EC6C1347@stanford.edu>

Hi,

Moderators of one of our lists would like to know what determines their mailman webui login duration.
That is, they login once to approve a message, and after what time will the webui require them to provide their credentials again for the next moderation request?
I searched the docs, archives, config and wiki and could not find this info.

thanks!

Fletcher 






From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Wed Nov 13 14:26:29 2013
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 08:26:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What determines mailman webui login duration?
In-Reply-To: <19CB3C6C-13DF-4EB2-8C8C-AA56EC6C1347@stanford.edu>
References: <19CB3C6C-13DF-4EB2-8C8C-AA56EC6C1347@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <52837E05.8090201@Damon-Family.org>

On 11/13/13, 1:57 AM, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Moderators of one of our lists would like to know what determines their mailman webui login duration.
> That is, they login once to approve a message, and after what time will the webui require them to provide their credentials again for the next moderation request?
> I searched the docs, archives, config and wiki and could not find this info.
>
> thanks!
>
> Fletcher 
>
That is controlled by the session cookie expiration, either by the
server or the browser. I am not sure if there is a setting in mailman to
control the session time on the server.

-- 
Richard Damon


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 13 16:04:18 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 07:04:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What determines mailman webui login duration?
In-Reply-To: <52837E05.8090201@Damon-Family.org>
References: <19CB3C6C-13DF-4EB2-8C8C-AA56EC6C1347@stanford.edu>
 <52837E05.8090201@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <528394F2.4000706@msapiro.net>

On 11/13/2013 05:26 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 11/13/13, 1:57 AM, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
>>
>> That is, they login once to approve a message, and after what time will the webui require them to provide their credentials again for the next moderation request?
>>
> That is controlled by the session cookie expiration, either by the
> server or the browser. I am not sure if there is a setting in mailman to
> control the session time on the server.


The cookie is a session cookie that expires at the end of the current
browser. In most cases, this means that you can close the window or tab,
but as long as you don't close the browser itself, the cookie remains valid.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From roel at wagenaar.nu  Wed Nov 13 14:53:17 2013
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 14:53:17 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is rewriting Message-Id
Message-ID: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu>

L.S.

As an experiment I have set up a read-only maillist with the help of these
notes:

http://whoopis.com/howtos/mailman-readonly-list.php

Seems to work fine, unfortunatily mailman is rewriting the Message-Id of the
injected emails.

>From info on the web I was led to believe this should not happen, however I
can not find a config option to overrule this behaviour.

Is it save to alter /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Message.py so that the section:

        if not self.has_key('message-id'):
            self['Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)

is changed into:

        if not self.has_key('message-id'):
            self['List-Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)

Or will this create more problems than it solves?

Mailman is running on a dedicated virtual host, Debian 7

-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

What happens if you get scared half to death twice?

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 13 17:01:55 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 08:01:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is rewriting Message-Id
In-Reply-To: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu>
References: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu>
Message-ID: <5283A273.6030507@msapiro.net>

On 11/13/2013 05:53 AM, Roel Wagenaar wrote:
> 
> As an experiment I have set up a read-only maillist with the help of these
> notes:
> 
> http://whoopis.com/howtos/mailman-readonly-list.php


See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/3YA9> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD>.


> Seems to work fine, unfortunatily mailman is rewriting the Message-Id of the
> injected emails.


What Mailman version is this? This should not happen unless General
Options -> anonymous_list is Yes or the new in 2.1.16 General Options ->
from_is_list setting is Wrap Message.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From barry at list.org  Wed Nov 13 17:02:15 2013
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:02:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is rewriting Message-Id
In-Reply-To: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu>
References: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu>
Message-ID: <20131113110215.355686f8@anarchist>

On Nov 13, 2013, at 02:53 PM, Roel Wagenaar wrote:

>Seems to work fine, unfortunatily mailman is rewriting the Message-Id of the
>injected emails.
>
>From info on the web I was led to believe this should not happen, however I
>can not find a config option to overrule this behaviour.
>
>Is it save to alter /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Message.py so that the section:
>
>        if not self.has_key('message-id'):
>            self['Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)
>
>is changed into:
>
>        if not self.has_key('message-id'):
>            self['List-Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)

That code will only add a Message-ID if the inject message is missing that
header.  It can't be involved in "rewriting" it.

-Barry

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov 13 17:50:03 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 01:50:03 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Mailman is rewriting Message-Id
In-Reply-To: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu>
References: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu>
Message-ID: <87mwl8gsas.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Roel Wagenaar writes:

 > Seems to work fine, unfortunatily mailman is rewriting the Message-Id of the
 > injected emails.

Seems very unlikely to me.  The code you propose changing should
prevent that already.  How did you determine that Mailman is rewriting
the Message-Id?

I suspect that what is actually happening is that you have an MUA that
does not set Message-ID and you are CC'ing yourself to check.  Somehow
the message gets to Mailman without a Message-ID, so Mailman (or
something before Mailman in the process) adds one to the post it
distributes, and something (probably your MTA on the way back in to
your mailbox) adds one independently to the CC that you receive.

There are several other possible explanations (besides Mailman
altering an existing Message-ID, which can't be completely ruled out
but I'd bet a euro against a yen that something else is doing it), as
well, but you haven't given enough information to diagnose the issue.

 > Is it save to alter /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Message.py so that the section:
 > 
 >         if not self.has_key('message-id'):
 >             self['Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)
 > 
 > is changed into:
 > 
 >         if not self.has_key('message-id'):
 >             self['List-Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)

No, it's not safe.  Messages really should have a message ID according
to the RFCs, and if Mailman receives a message without one, it should
add one.  Lack of a Message ID will mess up threading in archives and
MUAs, as most likely each downstream recipient will get a different
Message ID, just as you do.

From roel at wagenaar.nu  Wed Nov 13 18:46:25 2013
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 18:46:25 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is rewriting Message-Id
In-Reply-To: <5283A273.6030507@msapiro.net>
References: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu> <5283A273.6030507@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <mpro.mw7qpd0ju3qe80es5@wagenaar.nu>

Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/13/2013 05:53 AM, Roel Wagenaar wrote:
> > 
> > As an experiment I have set up a read-only maillist with the help of
> > these notes:
> > 
> > http://whoopis.com/howtos/mailman-readonly-list.php
> 
> 
> See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/3YA9> and
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD>.
> 
> 
> > Seems to work fine, unfortunatily mailman is rewriting the Message-Id of
> > the injected emails.
> 
> 
> What Mailman version is this? This should not happen unless General
> Options -> anonymous_list is Yes or the new in 2.1.16 General Options ->
> from_is_list setting is Wrap Message.
> 

Debian wheezy, which is version 2.1.15.

Yes, anonymous_list is Yes as suggested in the forementioned web site.

I'll set it to no and see what happens, and in the meantime read up at your
links.

-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

A fire at one end, a fool at the other, and a bit of tobacco in between.

From roel at wagenaar.nu  Wed Nov 13 18:47:58 2013
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 18:47:58 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is rewriting Message-Id
In-Reply-To: <87mwl8gsas.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu> 
 <87mwl8gsas.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <mpro.mw7qry0jz34q80es5@wagenaar.nu>

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

> Roel Wagenaar writes:
> 
>  > Seems to work fine, unfortunatily mailman is rewriting the Message-Id
of the
>  > injected emails.
> 
> Seems very unlikely to me.  The code you propose changing should prevent
> that already.  How did you determine that Mailman is rewriting the
> Message-Id?
> 
> I suspect that what is actually happening is that you have an MUA that
> does not set Message-ID and you are CC'ing yourself to check.  Somehow the
> message gets to Mailman without a Message-ID, so Mailman (or something
> before Mailman in the process) adds one to the post it distributes, and
> something (probably your MTA on the way back in to your mailbox) adds one
> independently to the CC that you receive.
> 
> There are several other possible explanations (besides Mailman altering an
> existing Message-ID, which can't be completely ruled out but I'd bet a
> euro against a yen that something else is doing it), as well, but you
> haven't given enough information to diagnose the issue.
> 
>  > Is it save to alter /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Message.py so that the
section:
>  > 
>  >         if not self.has_key('message-id'):
>  >             self['Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)
>  > 
>  > is changed into:
>  > 
>  >         if not self.has_key('message-id'):
>  >             self['List-Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)
> 
> No, it's not safe.  Messages really should have a message ID according to
> the RFCs, and if Mailman receives a message without one, it should add
> one.  Lack of a Message ID will mess up threading in archives and MUAs, as
> most likely each downstream recipient will get a different Message ID,
> just as you do.
> 
> 


-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

From roel at wagenaar.nu  Wed Nov 13 18:55:25 2013
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 18:55:25 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is rewriting Message-Id
In-Reply-To: <87mwl8gsas.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu> 
 <87mwl8gsas.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <mpro.mw7r4d0keuh400es5@wagenaar.nu>

You wrote:

> Roel Wagenaar writes:
> 
>  > Seems to work fine, unfortunatily mailman is rewriting the Message-Id
of the
>  > injected emails.
> 
> Seems very unlikely to me.  The code you propose changing should prevent
> that already.  How did you determine that Mailman is rewriting the
> Message-Id?


The mails are coming from my main mailhost, collected via rss2email and
processed by procmail.
A copy of the local delivered mail is sent to the maillists server, after
delivering it loses its threading thanks to the newly inserted message-id.


> I suspect that what is actually happening is that you have an MUA that
> does not set Message-ID and you are CC'ing yourself to check.  Somehow the
> message gets to Mailman without a Message-ID, so Mailman (or something
> before Mailman in the process) adds one to the post it distributes, and
> something (probably your MTA on the way back in to your mailbox) adds one
> independently to the CC that you receive.
> 
> There are several other possible explanations (besides Mailman altering an
> existing Message-ID, which can't be completely ruled out but I'd bet a
> euro against a yen that something else is doing it), as well, but you
> haven't given enough information to diagnose the issue.
> 
>  > Is it save to alter /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Message.py so that the
section:
>  > 
>  >         if not self.has_key('message-id'):
>  >             self['Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)
>  > 
>  > is changed into:
>  > 
>  >         if not self.has_key('message-id'):
>  >             self['List-Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)
> 
> No, it's not safe.  Messages really should have a message ID according to
> the RFCs, and if Mailman receives a message without one, it should add
> one.  Lack of a Message ID will mess up threading in archives and MUAs, as
> most likely each downstream recipient will get a different Message ID,
> just as you do.
> 

Right now I am waiting for the next messages to come in and see wether  Mark
Sapiro is right with some headers being wrongly set.

Thanks so far.


-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

A fire at one end, a fool at the other, and a bit of tobacco in between.

From roel at wagenaar.nu  Wed Nov 13 20:08:13 2013
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 20:08:13 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is rewriting Message-Id
In-Reply-To: <5283A273.6030507@msapiro.net>
References: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu> <5283A273.6030507@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <mpro.mw7uhp0novvi80es5@wagenaar.nu>

Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/13/2013 05:53 AM, Roel Wagenaar wrote:
> > 
> > As an experiment I have set up a read-only maillist with the help of
> > these notes:
> > 
> > http://whoopis.com/howtos/mailman-readonly-list.php
> 
> 
> See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/3YA9> and
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD>.
> 
> 
> > Seems to work fine, unfortunatily mailman is rewriting the Message-Id of
> > the injected emails.
> 
> 
> What Mailman version is this? This should not happen unless General
> Options -> anonymous_list is Yes or the new in 2.1.16 General Options ->
> from_is_list setting is Wrap Message.
> 

Hei Presto,

Changing the setting of anonymous_list to no has resulted in the correct
Message-Id.

Thanks for the fast and correct response.

Never to old to learn.

-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Thu Nov 14 05:17:14 2013
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 23:17:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What determines mailman webui login duration?
In-Reply-To: <528394F2.4000706@msapiro.net>
References: <19CB3C6C-13DF-4EB2-8C8C-AA56EC6C1347@stanford.edu>
 <52837E05.8090201@Damon-Family.org> <528394F2.4000706@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <52844ECA.70600@Damon-Family.org>

On 11/13/13, 10:04 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 11/13/2013 05:26 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 11/13/13, 1:57 AM, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
>>> That is, they login once to approve a message, and after what time will the webui require them to provide their credentials again for the next moderation request?
>>>
>> That is controlled by the session cookie expiration, either by the
>> server or the browser. I am not sure if there is a setting in mailman to
>> control the session time on the server.
>
> The cookie is a session cookie that expires at the end of the current
> browser. In most cases, this means that you can close the window or tab,
> but as long as you don't close the browser itself, the cookie remains valid.
>
But servers will expires sessions that haven't been used for awhile
(they need to, the browser won't tell them they have expired the
session). Once this happens, even if the browser still has the cookie,
it doesn't help anymore. The question comes how long will this be? and
the answer is it depends on the servers settings.

-- 
Richard Damon


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Nov 14 07:07:09 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:07:09 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is rewriting Message-Id
In-Reply-To: <mpro.mw7uhp0novvi80es5@wagenaar.nu>
References: <mpro.mw7fwt0a1ywnk0es5@wagenaar.nu> <5283A273.6030507@msapiro.net>
 <mpro.mw7uhp0novvi80es5@wagenaar.nu>
Message-ID: <87k3gbh5yq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Roel Wagenaar writes:

 > > What Mailman version is this? This should not happen unless General
 > > Options -> anonymous_list is Yes or the new in 2.1.16 General Options ->
 > > from_is_list setting is Wrap Message.

Ah, so this setting is actually useful in some real applications.

 > Changing the setting of anonymous_list to no has resulted in the correct
 > Message-Id.

I don't know if it's clear to you from Mark's reference above, so I'll
mention that if the reason you set anonymous_list to "yes" was to
automatically get the list in the "From" field, you can get that
effect with the "from_is_list" setting starting with version 2.1.16.

If there were other side effects of anonymous_list that you miss now,
and would like to be able to configure, feel free to mention them.

If they're not already configurable, they may not make it into Mailman
2 (that depends on how big a change it would require to make them
safe), but certainly we'll consider them for Mailman 3.

Regards,

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Nov 14 07:17:25 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 22:17:25 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What determines mailman webui login duration?
In-Reply-To: <52844ECA.70600@Damon-Family.org>
References: <19CB3C6C-13DF-4EB2-8C8C-AA56EC6C1347@stanford.edu>
 <52837E05.8090201@Damon-Family.org> <528394F2.4000706@msapiro.net>
 <52844ECA.70600@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <52846AF5.3020606@msapiro.net>

On 11/13/2013 08:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

> But servers will expires sessions that haven't been used for awhile
> (they need to, the browser won't tell them they have expired the
> session). Once this happens, even if the browser still has the cookie,
> it doesn't help anymore.


I may not understand correctly, but what I understand is that the
lifetime of a session cookie is until the browser is terminated. The
fact that the server may have expired the session (connection) is
irrelevant. If the browser still has the cookie and returns it the next
time the Mailman site is visited, Mailman will accept it.

See, e.g. <http://searchsoa.techtarget.com/definition/transient-cookie>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From roel at wagenaar.nu  Thu Nov 14 08:52:42 2013
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 08:52:42 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Content-Transfer-Encoding: not workng as expected.
Message-ID: <mpro.mw8tvu4auxvgg09ma@wagenaar.nu>

L.S.

Mailman version 2.1.15-1 Debian Wheezy

My /etc/procmailrc is decoding Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 headers as
standard rule forall incoming mail.

Funny thing happens when filtered mailis beiing resend by Maiman, it encode
the base64 part again, is there an option to prevent this? I don't seem to
beable to find it.

As a test case I havemade a copy recipy tgat make procmail send a copy of
all mail to Mailman to the same server where the list-messages go to, these
copies are not encoded.

Funny.

-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

Climate is what you expect. Weather is what you get.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Nov 14 10:07:17 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 18:07:17 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What determines mailman webui login duration?
In-Reply-To: <52844ECA.70600@Damon-Family.org>
References: <19CB3C6C-13DF-4EB2-8C8C-AA56EC6C1347@stanford.edu>
 <52837E05.8090201@Damon-Family.org> <528394F2.4000706@msapiro.net>
 <52844ECA.70600@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <87fvqzgxmi.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Richard Damon writes:

 > But servers will expires sessions that haven't been used for awhile
 > (they need to, the browser won't tell them they have expired the
 > session). Once this happens, even if the browser still has the cookie,
 > it doesn't help anymore. The question comes how long will this be? and
 > the answer is it depends on the servers settings.

Which for Mailman 2 appears to be AUTHENTICATION_COOKIE_LIFETIME:

# If the following is set to a non-zero value, web authentication
# cookies will
# expire that many seconds following their last use.
AUTHENTICATION_COOKIE_LIFETIME = 0

from Defaults.py.in.

From dancsa at dancsa.hu  Thu Nov 14 10:42:44 2013
From: dancsa at dancsa.hu (Daniel Galambos)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 10:42:44 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Qrunner process memory hungry
Message-ID: <52849B14.2010707@dancsa.hu>

Hi,

I recently upgraded a maillist server from Debian Squeeze to Wheezy. We had no
problem with it until the upgrade.

In 1-2 weeks mailman's OutgoingRunner and BounceRunner processes eat all
the memories and a lot of swap.
The box has 1,5GB RAM and 2G swap.

Mailman version is: 1:2.1.15-1
There are 2 lists with around 40k addresses with one letter per week, the
other lists are small.

Can you help me why are the qrunner processes eat all the memory, and what can I do
against it?
I don't believe that the solution is to write a cron job to restart periodically.


thanks,

Dancsa


From fil at rezo.net  Thu Nov 14 19:32:06 2013
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:32:06 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman under attack
Message-ID: <CAERh8-=PD1bd+57atFEafmPT+_s2aVoqa+zyXi4bi9JkmSw55g@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I just noticed a lot of backscatter spam, my Mailman installation was
starting to send subscription verifications to a lot of
ALLCAPS at hotmail.comaddresses, on a test list that no one is supposed
to be using.

I traced it to this site :

http://4478.a.hostable.me/vinabot/bommail/Boom.html

if you view source you will see that it opens a lot of iframes on 284
Mailman installations, and tries to auto-subscribe its victims email
adresses to different lists (392 in total).

I have put the page HTML source as well as the list of targeted servers and
lists in the attached zip file.

Do you know how to stop this efficiently?

-- Fil

From fil at rezo.net  Thu Nov 14 19:50:53 2013
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:50:53 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman under attack
In-Reply-To: <CAERh8-=PD1bd+57atFEafmPT+_s2aVoqa+zyXi4bi9JkmSw55g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAERh8-=PD1bd+57atFEafmPT+_s2aVoqa+zyXi4bi9JkmSw55g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAERh8-nKMMGW4UW8OC4J0Am+qNt=2scr20DFKrrUAyKUqdoAAA@mail.gmail.com>

The attachment was deleted, you can find it here:

targets:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6ddmgx3iljubot/boom-backscatter-targets.txt
zip containing the attacker's page source:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tlofz5wg8l8w47a/boom-backscatter.zip

-- Fil


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Fil <fil at rezo.net> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I just noticed a lot of backscatter spam, my Mailman installation was
> starting to send subscription verifications to a lot of
> ALLCAPS at hotmail.com addresses, on a test list that no one is supposed to
> be using.
>
> I traced it to this site :
>
> http://4478.a.hostable.me/vinabot/bommail/Boom.html
>
> if you view source you will see that it opens a lot of iframes on 284
> Mailman installations, and tries to auto-subscribe its victims email
> adresses to different lists (392 in total).
>
> I have put the page HTML source as well as the list of targeted servers
> and lists in the attached zip file.
>
> Do you know how to stop this efficiently?
>
>  -- Fil
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 15 04:06:46 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:06:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Content-Transfer-Encoding: not workng as
	expected.
In-Reply-To: <mpro.mw8tvu4auxvgg09ma@wagenaar.nu>
References: <mpro.mw8tvu4auxvgg09ma@wagenaar.nu>
Message-ID: <52858FC6.2000606@msapiro.net>

On 11/13/2013 11:52 PM, Roel Wagenaar wrote:
> 
> My /etc/procmailrc is decoding Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 headers as
> standard rule forall incoming mail.
> 
> Funny thing happens when filtered mailis beiing resend by Maiman, it encode
> the base64 part again, is there an option to prevent this? I don't seem to
> beable to find it.


I am guessing that you are talking about plain text message bodies with
character set UTF-8, and your list is adding a msg_header or msg_footer,
although there could be other cases as well.

This issue is due to the Python email package. In order to add a
msg_header or msg_footer to the message body, mailman has to do
set_payload() on the email.message.Message instance. This in turn does
set_charset() which encodes the body with the encoding of the
body_encoding attribute of the email.charset.Charset instance for that
character set. For UTF-8, this is base64.

If my guess is correct, you may be able to avoid the re-encoding by
making sure the list's msg_header and msg_footer are empty.

Otherwise, you could look at Mailman/Handlers/Decorate.py and try adding
the following near the beginning after "import re"

import email.charset
email.charset.CHARSETS['utf-8'] = (SHORTEST,  None, 'utf-8')

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From roel at wagenaar.nu  Fri Nov 15 15:11:03 2013
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 15:11:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Content-Transfer-Encoding: not workng as
	expected.
In-Reply-To: <52858FC6.2000606@msapiro.net>
References: <mpro.mw8tvu4auxvgg09ma@wagenaar.nu> <52858FC6.2000606@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <mpro.mwb62f06ptf280e9l@wagenaar.nu>

Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> I am guessing that you are talking about plain text message bodies with
> character set UTF-8, and your list is adding a msg_header or msg_footer,
> although there could be other cases as well.
> 
> This issue is due to the Python email package. In order to add a
> msg_header or msg_footer to the message body, mailman has to do
> set_payload() on the email.message.Message instance. This in turn does
> set_charset() which encodes the body with the encoding of the
> body_encoding attribute of the email.charset.Charset instance for that
> character set. For UTF-8, this is base64.
> 
> If my guess is correct, you may be able to avoid the re-encoding by making
> sure the list's msg_header and msg_footer are empty.
> 
> Otherwise, you could look at Mailman/Handlers/Decorate.py and try adding
> the following near the beginning after "import re"
> 
> import email.charset email.charset.CHARSETS['utf-8'] = (SHORTEST,  None,
> 'utf-8')

Yes, I have msg_footer active, and don't want it empty.

I have adde your lines right after "import re", and almost instantly get the
"We hit a bug" message in the web interface.

I have attached an extract from mailmans error log, hope the list will allow
it.
The error message is:

admin(3051):     from Mailman.Handlers.Decorate import decorate
admin(3051):   File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Decorate.py", line
23, in <module>
admin(3051):     email.charset.CHARSETS['utf-8'] = (SHORTEST,  None,
'utf-8')
admin(3051): NameError: name 'SHORTEST' is not defined

I have disabled the lines again.

-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

Good judgement comes from experience. Unfortunately, experience comes from
bad judgement.


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 15 18:58:47 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 09:58:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Content-Transfer-Encoding: not workng as
	expected.
In-Reply-To: <mpro.mwb62f06ptf280e9l@wagenaar.nu>
References: <mpro.mw8tvu4auxvgg09ma@wagenaar.nu>
 <52858FC6.2000606@msapiro.net> <mpro.mwb62f06ptf280e9l@wagenaar.nu>
Message-ID: <528660D7.8070305@msapiro.net>

On 11/15/2013 06:11 AM, Roel Wagenaar wrote:
> 
> I have adde your lines right after "import re", and almost instantly get the
> "We hit a bug" message in the web interface.
> 
> I have attached an extract from mailmans error log, hope the list will allow
> it.
> The error message is:
> 
> admin(3051):     from Mailman.Handlers.Decorate import decorate
> admin(3051):   File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Decorate.py", line
> 23, in <module>
> admin(3051):     email.charset.CHARSETS['utf-8'] = (SHORTEST,  None,
> 'utf-8')
> admin(3051): NameError: name 'SHORTEST' is not defined


My bad :(

either of the following should work:

import email.charset
email.charset.CHARSETS['utf-8'] = (email.charset.SHORTEST,  None, 'utf-8')

or

from email.charset import CHARSETS, SHORTEST
CHARSETS['utf-8'] = (SHORTEST,  None, 'utf-8')

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Nov 15 21:12:55 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:12:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Qrunner process memory hungry
In-Reply-To: <52849B14.2010707@dancsa.hu>
References: <52849B14.2010707@dancsa.hu>
Message-ID: <52868047.8090902@msapiro.net>

On 11/14/2013 01:42 AM, Daniel Galambos wrote:
> 
> I recently upgraded a maillist server from Debian Squeeze to Wheezy. We had no
> problem with it until the upgrade.


The only change in Mailman that would affect memory usage was released
in 2.1.15 and would have reduced, not increased usage. I can't speak to
any Debian changes, but see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD>.


> In 1-2 weeks mailman's OutgoingRunner and BounceRunner processes eat all
> the memories and a lot of swap.
> The box has 1,5GB RAM and 2G swap.


Also see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/94A9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Nov 18 02:08:26 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 17:08:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.17
Message-ID: <5289688A.7000409@msapiro.net>

Since the release of Mailman 2.1.16 last month, there have been some
i18n updates, a new feature affecting which headers are kept in posts to
anonymous lists and a few bug fixes.

One of these bugs was introduced in 2.1.16 and is fairly serious
although it only affects lists with defined topics. See
<https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251495>. For this reason, I plan to release
Mailman 2.1.17 in about a week. If there are any i18n changes or other
things that should go in 2.1.17, please get them to me before next weekend.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From fpicabia at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 17:50:09 2013
From: fpicabia at gmail.com (francis picabia)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:50:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Block calendar invites to list
Message-ID: <CA+AKB6Fa0qRUuzOcrkVp2H=mqjOpG3dnS-pMVuexyPEcaLoE0w@mail.gmail.com>

We have an issue where sometimes a person creates a calendar
item for an event, and canceling the item causes email to
be delivered to the list.

It seems the solution could be looking at MIME header tags
indicating it is a meeting invite, and we could block all
emails containing:

^Content-Type: text/calendar

Placing that in Spam Filter rule does not capture the email,
likely because it isn't in the top header section, but within
the MIME encoded sections.

Does this problem have a known solution?  Google didn't
find it and I don't see "text/calendar" in my archives of
the mailman mailing list.

From fpicabia at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 18:10:01 2013
From: fpicabia at gmail.com (francis picabia)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 13:10:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Block calendar invites to list
In-Reply-To: <CA+AKB6Fa0qRUuzOcrkVp2H=mqjOpG3dnS-pMVuexyPEcaLoE0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+AKB6Fa0qRUuzOcrkVp2H=mqjOpG3dnS-pMVuexyPEcaLoE0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+AKB6H4cD_onNMwwgo-h4Mr0T3NV13BHjQds9ZmnsxrneSvGA@mail.gmail.com>

OK, I find the probable answer a few minutes later.  Trying Content
filtering now.
I'm pretty sure this is what I was looking for.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 12:50 PM, francis picabia <fpicabia at gmail.com> wrote:
> We have an issue where sometimes a person creates a calendar
> item for an event, and canceling the item causes email to
> be delivered to the list.
>
> It seems the solution could be looking at MIME header tags
> indicating it is a meeting invite, and we could block all
> emails containing:
>
> ^Content-Type: text/calendar
>
> Placing that in Spam Filter rule does not capture the email,
> likely because it isn't in the top header section, but within
> the MIME encoded sections.
>
> Does this problem have a known solution?  Google didn't
> find it and I don't see "text/calendar" in my archives of
> the mailman mailing list.

From fpicabia at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 21:29:29 2013
From: fpicabia at gmail.com (francis picabia)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:29:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Block calendar invites to list
In-Reply-To: <CA+AKB6H4cD_onNMwwgo-h4Mr0T3NV13BHjQds9ZmnsxrneSvGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+AKB6Fa0qRUuzOcrkVp2H=mqjOpG3dnS-pMVuexyPEcaLoE0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+AKB6H4cD_onNMwwgo-h4Mr0T3NV13BHjQds9ZmnsxrneSvGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+AKB6GqQfyA4rNmrmY64xuAF6-3v98vh9bHCw04JtY-eMy_Ag@mail.gmail.com>

I'm back again.  Not quite what we were looking for.  Content
filtering stripped out the meeting
request from exchange, but did not discard the mail and the rest of
the email message
was delivered through the list.  We had

Filter Content. Yes
Action to take when a message matches the content filtering rules.
Discard (checked)


On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 1:10 PM, francis picabia <fpicabia at gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, I find the probable answer a few minutes later.  Trying Content
> filtering now.
> I'm pretty sure this is what I was looking for.
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 12:50 PM, francis picabia <fpicabia at gmail.com> wrote:
>> We have an issue where sometimes a person creates a calendar
>> item for an event, and canceling the item causes email to
>> be delivered to the list.
>>
>> It seems the solution could be looking at MIME header tags
>> indicating it is a meeting invite, and we could block all
>> emails containing:
>>
>> ^Content-Type: text/calendar
>>
>> Placing that in Spam Filter rule does not capture the email,
>> likely because it isn't in the top header section, but within
>> the MIME encoded sections.
>>
>> Does this problem have a known solution?  Google didn't
>> find it and I don't see "text/calendar" in my archives of
>> the mailman mailing list.

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 19 02:48:47 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:48:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Block calendar invites to list
In-Reply-To: <CA+AKB6Fa0qRUuzOcrkVp2H=mqjOpG3dnS-pMVuexyPEcaLoE0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+AKB6Fa0qRUuzOcrkVp2H=mqjOpG3dnS-pMVuexyPEcaLoE0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <528AC37F.3060308@msapiro.net>

On 11/18/2013 08:50 AM, francis picabia wrote:
> 
> It seems the solution could be looking at MIME header tags
> indicating it is a meeting invite, and we could block all
> emails containing:
> 
> ^Content-Type: text/calendar
> 
> Placing that in Spam Filter rule does not capture the email,
> likely because it isn't in the top header section, but within
> the MIME encoded sections.


What you want is the regexp

^content-type:\s*text/calendar

in Privacy options... -> Spam filters -> header_filter_rules with the
appropriate action. This does look at part headers as well as the
message headers. If that's what you did, I don't know why it didn't
work, but if you send me a full message, I'll investigate.


> I'm back again.  Not quite what we were looking for.  Content
> filtering stripped out the meeting
> request from exchange, but did not discard the mail and the rest of
> the email message
> was delivered through the list.  We had
> 
> Filter Content. Yes
> Action to take when a message matches the content filtering rules.
> Discard (checked)


Filter action only applies to messages which have no content left after
content filtering. What you observed is how it should work. This is
explained at the "(Details for filter_action)" link.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 19 05:30:18 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 20:30:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Block calendar invites to list
In-Reply-To: <528AC37F.3060308@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+AKB6Fa0qRUuzOcrkVp2H=mqjOpG3dnS-pMVuexyPEcaLoE0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <528AC37F.3060308@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <528AE95A.5090104@msapiro.net>

On 11/18/2013 05:48 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> What you want is the regexp
> 
> ^content-type:\s*text/calendar
> 
> in Privacy options... -> Spam filters -> header_filter_rules with the
> appropriate action. This does look at part headers as well as the
> message headers. If that's what you did, I don't know why it didn't
> work, but if you send me a full message, I'll investigate.


Actually, if your Mailman is very old, that could be the reason.
header_filter_rules did not look at sub-part headers before Mailman
2.1.6. If your Mailman is older than that, you should consider upgrading.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fpicabia at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 16:09:42 2013
From: fpicabia at gmail.com (francis picabia)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 11:09:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Block calendar invites to list
In-Reply-To: <528AC37F.3060308@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+AKB6Fa0qRUuzOcrkVp2H=mqjOpG3dnS-pMVuexyPEcaLoE0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <528AC37F.3060308@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+AKB6ExT+3WgVJCOKxN2N8C4Nn2J6t=7t3ReamFBfZFbHqtLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> On 11/18/2013 08:50 AM, francis picabia wrote:
>>
>> It seems the solution could be looking at MIME header tags
>> indicating it is a meeting invite, and we could block all
>> emails containing:
>>
>> ^Content-Type: text/calendar
>>
>> Placing that in Spam Filter rule does not capture the email,
>> likely because it isn't in the top header section, but within
>> the MIME encoded sections.
>
>
> What you want is the regexp
>
> ^content-type:\s*text/calendar

Hi,

That worked.

Thanks very much.  This will save some embarrassment for users
who occasionally mark an event in their calendar.

I'd also like to remark on how pleasant it is to get help
like this from an open source developer without
the demi-god undertones of some mailing lists.  It is
much appreciated.  You're doing great work.

From slc at publicus.net  Tue Nov 19 19:59:40 2013
From: slc at publicus.net (Steven Clift)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:59:40 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings
 with Gmail, etc.
In-Reply-To: <87sivaj9jo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CALAwQWrfGs5KPjN23Qy5BPLigp=m04N4P6xjy0s-H08LFWYe6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <87sivaj9jo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CALAwQWqAVzGwJN2Yy_d_-VdKrcB1YSGb4UURJn0VZL2b-Jj27A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Stephen.

Are most mailman hosts finding their mail in Gmail heading to the
"Promotions" tab or "Forums" optional tab?

Steven Clift

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> Steven Clift writes:
>
>  > Has this been a growing issue with Mailman served lists?
>
> I wouldn't say it's growing.  For quite a while (a decade or so) we
> have been getting the occasional request for help in getting mail
> delivered to the major freemail services and portals, including Gmail,
> Yahoo!, Hotmail, and AOL.  I haven't noticed them getting more
> frequent over time, nor have I had problems delivering to them with my
> own lists (but I have a really easy set of users to service, most are
> admins or oldtimers themselves and tend to blame their freemail
> provider, not my lists).
>
>  > If it is not a growing problem with Mailman lists, then what are
>  > you doing right!?
>
> Hard to say.  For one thing, Mailman tries very hard to conform to the
> relevant RFCs (specifically 5322, 2369, and 2919).
>
> Second, most Mailman lists are set up by professionals, either people
> who are quite familiar with mail service including the kinds of things
> that keep you from getting labeled as spam, or hosting services.  Not
> all of them are completely competent, but most do a pretty good job.
> Most implement DKIM and/or SPF, for example.  So there may be a
> growing problem, and we just don't hear about it -- the host managers
> are dealing with it themselves.
>
> Third, we do have a pretty good FAQ on how to communicate with the big
> services to get on their good side.  It's tedious to follow their
> rules, but it does work most of the time.
>
>  > (One factor for us is that we do have a lot of users who post via
>  > the web interface, which Gmail doesn't seem to like.)
>
> That doesn't surprise me.  I assume that the from address is
> "Web.User at home.org" as they are registered with your service.  If your
> software is not emitting a correct Sender header, it will look like
> the From address is spoofed.  Gmail won't like that.  Make sure that
> in this case the Sender header is set appropriately.  (Mailman doesn't
> have a web interface, so doesn't have experience with this itself.
> The most common third-party interface is Gmane, which does get the
> headers right.  Not everybody appreciates Gmane -- they have a habit
> of mirroring lists whose owners don't want them mirrored -- but they
> do conform to the mail standards.)
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Steve

From adamsca at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 20:26:07 2013
From: adamsca at gmail.com (Christopher Adams)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 11:26:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with bounce processing
Message-ID: <CAA13W+9UqiRWMkFdwHkA0-YCvK3MXkDDiECErZZUDKy23m5CHg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am having some problems with bounce processing working correctly. If I
set a list so that a max bounce score  < 1 ( .1 in this case). So, the
expectation is that the subscriber's account will immediately be tagged as
'No Mail" by Bounce (B). That is not happening. In addition, the bounce
logs are quite a bit leaner than I would expect and the bounces don't seem
to be showing up there.

Can someone point me in the right direction? I have checked the cron and
list settings and can't seem to resolve this. Stale users are not being
marked disabled and are not getting unsubscribed.


-- 
Christopher Adams
adamsca at gmail.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 19 21:20:34 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:20:34 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <CAA13W+9UqiRWMkFdwHkA0-YCvK3MXkDDiECErZZUDKy23m5CHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA13W+9UqiRWMkFdwHkA0-YCvK3MXkDDiECErZZUDKy23m5CHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <528BC812.2040204@msapiro.net>

On 11/19/2013 11:26 AM, Christopher Adams wrote:
> 
> I am having some problems with bounce processing working correctly. If I
> set a list so that a max bounce score  < 1 ( .1 in this case). So, the
> expectation is that the subscriber's account will immediately be tagged as
> 'No Mail" by Bounce (B). That is not happening.


It should work. The first bounce should disable delivery by bounce. You
can also set bounce_score_threshold to 0, but .1 should do the same thing.

Is bounce_processing set to Yes for the list? Are all the notifications
set to Yes?	


> In addition, the bounce
> logs are quite a bit leaner than I would expect and the bounces don't seem
> to be showing up there.


What do you see in the MTA logs for mail which bounces?


> Can someone point me in the right direction? I have checked the cron and
> list settings and can't seem to resolve this. Stale users are not being
> marked disabled and are not getting unsubscribed.


Ultimate unsubscription, assuming bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings is
greater than 0 depends on cron/disabled, but if delivery is not being
disabled by bounce, then removal won't occur.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From adamsca at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 21:59:29 2013
From: adamsca at gmail.com (Christopher Adams)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:59:29 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <528BC812.2040204@msapiro.net>
References: <CAA13W+9UqiRWMkFdwHkA0-YCvK3MXkDDiECErZZUDKy23m5CHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <528BC812.2040204@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAA13W+9yp2UG1J2=WWz4xFJcLuzQuUtUPtJ0aQTgS7BdgN=L7A@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Here is a log that shows a message sent to the 'test7' list. The list is
set up for bounce processing and all notifications are set to 'yes'. This
is happening with the entire system, not just individual lists. It doesn't
seem to be processing bounces. The bounce.log,which rotated at 4 am this
morning, is currently empty. The mailman.cron has an entry that sends
messages to disabled subscribers at 9 am every day.


Looking at some older bounce logs, it appears that a few entries for bounce
score appear, but not as many as I would expect. Additionally, nobody is
being tagged as (B) bounce in the membership list.

Nov 19 11:58:26 swiki postfix/local[17412]: 270961998422: to=<
test7 at mydomain.com>, relay=local, delay=0.15, delays=0.05/0/0/0.1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post test7)
Nov 19 11:58:27 swiki postfix/qmgr[6381]: 824501998422: from=<
test7-bounces at mydomain.com>, size=5830, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Nov 19 11:58:27 swiki postfix/qmgr[6381]: 852721998424: from=<
test7-bounces at mydomain.com>, size=5798, nrcpt=3 (queue active)
Nov 19 11:58:31 swiki postfix/local[17411]: 9E66A1998437: to=<
test7-bounces at mydomain.com>, relay=local, delay=0.2, delays=0.02/0/0/0.18,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces test7)


On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/19/2013 11:26 AM, Christopher Adams wrote:
> >
> > I am having some problems with bounce processing working correctly. If I
> > set a list so that a max bounce score  < 1 ( .1 in this case). So, the
> > expectation is that the subscriber's account will immediately be tagged
> as
> > 'No Mail" by Bounce (B). That is not happening.
>
>
> It should work. The first bounce should disable delivery by bounce. You
> can also set bounce_score_threshold to 0, but .1 should do the same thing.
>
> Is bounce_processing set to Yes for the list? Are all the notifications
> set to Yes?
>
>
> > In addition, the bounce
> > logs are quite a bit leaner than I would expect and the bounces don't
> seem
> > to be showing up there.
>
>
> What do you see in the MTA logs for mail which bounces?
>
>
> > Can someone point me in the right direction? I have checked the cron and
> > list settings and can't seem to resolve this. Stale users are not being
> > marked disabled and are not getting unsubscribed.
>
>
> Ultimate unsubscription, assuming bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings is
> greater than 0 depends on cron/disabled, but if delivery is not being
> disabled by bounce, then removal won't occur.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/adamsca%40gmail.com
>



-- 
Christopher Adams
adamsca at gmail.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 19 22:25:42 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 13:25:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <CAA13W+9yp2UG1J2=WWz4xFJcLuzQuUtUPtJ0aQTgS7BdgN=L7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA13W+9UqiRWMkFdwHkA0-YCvK3MXkDDiECErZZUDKy23m5CHg@mail.gmail.com>	<528BC812.2040204@msapiro.net>
 <CAA13W+9yp2UG1J2=WWz4xFJcLuzQuUtUPtJ0aQTgS7BdgN=L7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <528BD756.4070405@msapiro.net>

On 11/19/2013 12:59 PM, Christopher Adams wrote:
> 
> Looking at some older bounce logs, it appears that a few entries for
> bounce score appear, but not as many as I would expect. Additionally,
> nobody is being tagged as (B) bounce in the membership list.


If there is a bounce score entry in the bounce log and the score exceeds
threshold, the member should be disabled.


> Nov 19 11:58:31 swiki postfix/local[17411]: 9E66A1998437:
> to=<test7-bounces at mydomain.com <mailto:test7-bounces at mydomain.com>>,
> relay=local, delay=0.2, delays=0.02/0/0/0.18, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent
> (delivered to command: /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces test7)


This should result in a bounce log entry.

Is BounceRunner running? Is there anything in Mailman's error log
relating to bounces? What's in Mailman's qrunner log relating to
BounceRunner?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From phanh at canby.k12.or.us  Tue Nov 19 23:24:49 2013
From: phanh at canby.k12.or.us (Hung Phan)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:24:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman cannot deliver email to a particular domain
Message-ID: <79F71DCB-709C-4D24-B4B2-6095FD74D3F5@canby.k12.or.us>

We have a particular issue with Mailman (more of an exim issue actually) cannot delivers email to our canby.k12.... domain. Emails send to this domain come back with this error (-53): retry time not reached for any host. Other emails went out OK.

When we run the exim -d -M message_ID, here is a portion of the log file:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remote deliveries >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
--------> csdadmin at canby.k12.or.us <--------
search_tidyup called
changed uid/gid: remote delivery to csdadmin at canby.k12.or.us with transport=remote_smtp
  uid=93 gid=93 pid=15280
  auxiliary group list: <none>
set_process_info: 15280 delivering 1VitQf-0003yJ-96 using remote_smtp
remote_smtp transport entered
  csdadmin at canby.k12.or.us
checking status of canby.k12.or.us
locking /var/spool/exim/db/retry.lockfile
locked /var/spool/exim/db/retry.lockfile
EXIM_DBOPEN(/var/spool/exim/db/retry)
returned from EXIM_DBOPEN
opened hints database /var/spool/exim/db/retry: flags=O_RDONLY
dbfn_read: key=T:canby.k12.or.us:10.30.XXX.XX
dbfn_read: key=T:canby.k12.or.us:10.30.XXX.XX:1VitQf-0003yJ-96
no message retry record
canby.k12.or.us [10.30.192.16] status = usable
10.30.XXX.XX in serialize_hosts? no (option unset)
delivering 1VitQf-0003yJ-96 to canby.k12.or.us [10.30.XXX.XX] (csdadmin at canby.k12.or.us)
set_process_info: 15280 delivering 1VitQf-0003yJ-96 to canby.k12.or.us [10.30.XXX.XX] (csdadmin at canby.k12.or.us)
set_process_info: 15279 delivering 1VitQf-0003yJ-96: waiting for a remote delivery subprocess to finish

The 10.30.xxx.xx is a masked IP to protect our DNS service. 

Our domain is canby.k12... while our email is canby.k12... and hosted by an external provider. According to the log file, it seems that Mailman thinks canby.k12... domain is hosted at 10.30.xxx.xx, which is our internal DNS service. Is there a tool for us to trace the email sending route? We suspect it is the DNS setting but need more info to determine where does it stop. Do we need an MX record, A record or something else in our DNS service so Mailman not try to connect to this DNS server and end up failing?

We can post the exim config file if needed.

Thank you very much for advice,


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Nov 19 23:52:33 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:52:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman cannot deliver email to a particular
 domain
In-Reply-To: <79F71DCB-709C-4D24-B4B2-6095FD74D3F5@canby.k12.or.us>
References: <79F71DCB-709C-4D24-B4B2-6095FD74D3F5@canby.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <528BEBB1.8000809@msapiro.net>

On 11/19/2013 02:24 PM, Hung Phan wrote:
> We have a particular issue with Mailman (more of an exim issue actually)

Exactly!



> 
> ... it seems that Mailman thinks canby.k12... domain is hosted at 10.30.xxx.xx, which is our internal DNS service. Is there a tool for us to trace the email sending route? We suspect it is the DNS setting but need more info to determine where does it stop. Do we need an MX record, A record or something else in our DNS service so Mailman not try to connect to this DNS server and end up failing?


This has nothing to do with Mailman. It is strictly exim. Mailman is not
doing any DNS lookups on anything except maybe localhost or whatever is
set as SMTPHOST in Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py.

Mailman passes the message and list of recipient addresses to this SMTP
server (exim) and it's up to that server to deliver the mail.

You have MX records

$ dig mx canby.k12.or.us
...
;; ANSWER SECTION:
canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	60 ALT2.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com.
canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	70 ASPMX2.GOOGLEMAIL.com.
canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	70 ASPMX3.GOOGLEMAIL.com.
canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	10 canby.k12.or.us.s9a1.psmtp.com.
canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	20 canby.k12.or.us.s9a2.psmtp.com.
canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	30 canby.k12.or.us.s9b1.psmtp.com.
canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	40 canby.k12.or.us.s9b2.psmtp.com.
canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	50 ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com.
canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	60 ALT1.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com.

If exim is trying to deliver mail to the canby.k12.or.us domain and
thinks it should be sent to 10.30.192.16, that's something to do with
exim and not Mailman.

Note: 10.x.x.x IP addresses are only valid within your local private
network. You don't have to mask them to protect your DNS since they
aren't accessible from outside your network.

You would probably have better luck taking this exim issue to an exim
support resource.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From adamsca at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 00:19:48 2013
From: adamsca at gmail.com (Christopher Adams)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 15:19:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <528BD756.4070405@msapiro.net>
References: <CAA13W+9UqiRWMkFdwHkA0-YCvK3MXkDDiECErZZUDKy23m5CHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <528BC812.2040204@msapiro.net>
 <CAA13W+9yp2UG1J2=WWz4xFJcLuzQuUtUPtJ0aQTgS7BdgN=L7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <528BD756.4070405@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAA13W+9LbuUu6E7UUibEHZ2F4uROPqEN8qTFTGKF80=1qb3QGg@mail.gmail.com>

There is no bounce score entry in the bounce log for that post, or for
probably any posts.

There is nothing in the error log about bounces.

The only entry in the qrunner related to BounceRunner is at 4:02 am every
day:

Nov 19 04:02:36 2012 (29791) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 27168, sig: None, sts: 2, class: BounceRunner, slice: 1/1)
[restarting]



On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/19/2013 12:59 PM, Christopher Adams wrote:
> >
> > Looking at some older bounce logs, it appears that a few entries for
> > bounce score appear, but not as many as I would expect. Additionally,
> > nobody is being tagged as (B) bounce in the membership list.
>
>
> If there is a bounce score entry in the bounce log and the score exceeds
> threshold, the member should be disabled.
>
>
> > Nov 19 11:58:31 swiki postfix/local[17411]: 9E66A1998437:
> > to=<test7-bounces at mydomain.com <mailto:test7-bounces at mydomain.com>>,
> > relay=local, delay=0.2, delays=0.02/0/0/0.18, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent
> > (delivered to command: /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces test7)
>
>
> This should result in a bounce log entry.
>
> Is BounceRunner running? Is there anything in Mailman's error log
> relating to bounces? What's in Mailman's qrunner log relating to
> BounceRunner?
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>



-- 
Christopher Adams
adamsca at gmail.com

From adamsca at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 00:35:11 2013
From: adamsca at gmail.com (Christopher Adams)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 15:35:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <528BD756.4070405@msapiro.net>
References: <CAA13W+9UqiRWMkFdwHkA0-YCvK3MXkDDiECErZZUDKy23m5CHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <528BC812.2040204@msapiro.net>
 <CAA13W+9yp2UG1J2=WWz4xFJcLuzQuUtUPtJ0aQTgS7BdgN=L7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <528BD756.4070405@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAA13W+_SuoE=SARcLFNGC7G=V=8fOddVYh6UZeMm_xjvQRoSng@mail.gmail.com>

There is no bounce score entry in the bounce log. As it turns out, there
has not been a bounce log generated since 11/13.

Would BounceRunner show in a list of processes. If so, I don't see it.


Here is an entry in the qrunner log related to BounceRunner:

Nov 19 04:02:36 2012 (29791) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 27168, sig: None, sts: 2, class: BounceRunner, slice: 1/1)
[restarting]
/Bounce                                                       1973,40
4


On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/19/2013 12:59 PM, Christopher Adams wrote:
> >
> > Looking at some older bounce logs, it appears that a few entries for
> > bounce score appear, but not as many as I would expect. Additionally,
> > nobody is being tagged as (B) bounce in the membership list.
>
>
> If there is a bounce score entry in the bounce log and the score exceeds
> threshold, the member should be disabled.
>
>
> > Nov 19 11:58:31 swiki postfix/local[17411]: 9E66A1998437:
> > to=<test7-bounces at mydomain.com <mailto:test7-bounces at mydomain.com>>,
> > relay=local, delay=0.2, delays=0.02/0/0/0.18, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent
> > (delivered to command: /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces test7)
>
>
> This should result in a bounce log entry.
>
> Is BounceRunner running? Is there anything in Mailman's error log
> relating to bounces? What's in Mailman's qrunner log relating to
> BounceRunner?
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>



-- 
Christopher Adams
adamsca at gmail.com

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Nov 20 00:28:04 2013
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:28:04 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman cannot deliver email to a particular
 domain
In-Reply-To: <528BEBB1.8000809@msapiro.net>
References: <79F71DCB-709C-4D24-B4B2-6095FD74D3F5@canby.k12.or.us>
 <528BEBB1.8000809@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20131119232804.GH10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 02:52:33PM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 11/19/2013 02:24 PM, Hung Phan wrote:
> > ... it seems that Mailman thinks canby.k12... domain is hosted at 10.30.xxx.xx, which is our internal DNS service. Is there a tool for us to trace the email sending route? 

You could look at your routing table(s), perhaps? (but see below).

>We suspect it is the DNS setting but need more info to determine where does it stop. Do we need an MX record, A record or something else in our DNS service so Mailman not try to connect to this DNS server and end up failing?

You could write a custom route in Exim, or a custom router/transport:
sometimes it's 'necessary' to define a route for a receiving MX,
particularly if the receiving MX is run by a clueless numpty (or,
indeed, someone who has a different interpretation of RFCs/Best
Practice etc than you).

> This has nothing to do with Mailman. It is strictly exim. Mailman is not
> doing any DNS lookups on anything except maybe localhost or whatever is
> set as SMTPHOST in Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py.
> 
> Mailman passes the message and list of recipient addresses to this SMTP
> server (exim) and it's up to that server to deliver the mail.
> 
> You have MX records
> 
> $ dig mx canby.k12.or.us
> ...
> ;; ANSWER SECTION:
> canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	60 ALT2.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com.
> canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	70 ASPMX2.GOOGLEMAIL.com.
> canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	70 ASPMX3.GOOGLEMAIL.com.
> canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	10 canby.k12.or.us.s9a1.psmtp.com.
> canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	20 canby.k12.or.us.s9a2.psmtp.com.
> canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	30 canby.k12.or.us.s9b1.psmtp.com.
> canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	40 canby.k12.or.us.s9b2.psmtp.com.
> canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	50 ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com.
> canby.k12.or.us.	86400	IN	MX	60 ALT1.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.com.

Internally, though, you may get a different result -- it could be worth
checking resolv.conf(5), nsswitch.conf(5), and `host -t ns` (or equivalent
through dig(1)).

> You would probably have better luck taking this exim issue to an exim
> support resource.

As a general purpose mail tool, swaks
<http://www.jetmore.org/john/code/swaks/> can often be quite useful.

-- 
"Should not the Society of Indexers be known as Indexers, Society of, The?"
    -- Keith Waterhouse

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 20 01:22:34 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 16:22:34 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <CAA13W+_SuoE=SARcLFNGC7G=V=8fOddVYh6UZeMm_xjvQRoSng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA13W+9UqiRWMkFdwHkA0-YCvK3MXkDDiECErZZUDKy23m5CHg@mail.gmail.com>	<528BC812.2040204@msapiro.net>	<CAA13W+9yp2UG1J2=WWz4xFJcLuzQuUtUPtJ0aQTgS7BdgN=L7A@mail.gmail.com>	<528BD756.4070405@msapiro.net>
 <CAA13W+_SuoE=SARcLFNGC7G=V=8fOddVYh6UZeMm_xjvQRoSng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <528C00CA.3070300@msapiro.net>

On 11/19/2013 03:35 PM, Christopher Adams wrote:
> There is no bounce score entry in the bounce log. As it turns out, there
> has not been a bounce log generated since 11/13.
> 
> Would BounceRunner show in a list of processes. If so, I don't see it.

ps -fwC python

or

ps -fwu mailman

should show all the qrunners with the commands that invoked them
(including the runner name).

e.g.
$  ps -fwu mailman
UID        PID  PPID  C STIME TTY          TIME CMD
mailman  21122     1  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
/usr/local/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
mailman  21123 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:03 /usr/bin/python2.7
/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  21124 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  21125 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  21126 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  21127 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  21128 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:08 /usr/bin/python2.7
/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  21129 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  21130 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s

If BounceRunner isn't running (since 11/13?) that would explain a lot.


> Here is an entry in the qrunner log related to BounceRunner:
> 
> Nov 19 04:02:36 2012 (29791) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
> (pid: 27168, sig: None, sts: 2, class: BounceRunner, slice: 1/1)
> [restarting]


What happens daily at 04:02? Check your cron logs or /etc/cron.daily

sts: 2 could be a missing file or directory, but there should be an
entry in Mailman's error log from the same time.

Are there queued bounces in the bounces queue (Mailman's qfiles/bounces/
or wherever your package puts it (e.g. /var/spool/mailman/bounces in the
RedHat/CentOS package).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Wed Nov 20 12:50:25 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 06:50:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <1383680782.20384.33.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383680782.20384.33.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <528CA201.2030403@libertytrek.org>

(Sorry for replying to an older thread, I'm going back through older 
unread mails)

Maybe these should be made an official part of mailman's extra tools?

And maybe updated to work with MM3?

On 2013-11-05 2:46 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-11-05 at 13:14 -0600, c cc wrote:
>> Mark,
>>
>> It seems like /etc/init.d/mailman and /etc/rc.d/mailman both are runing
>> /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl, as you can you below:
>>
>> MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman
>> MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl
>>
>> Here how I moved my lists over to the new server:
>
> FWIW, here are the two scripts I use to move Mailman accounts, with
> their archives, from one computer to another.  I've never had a single
> problem when using them and have moved a lot of lists with them.
>
> The first script creates an gzip archive of the list in /tmp, plus a
> marker file indicating whether or not the list's posting archive is
> public or private.  It's called /usr/local/sbin/tar_list.sh and gets run
> by root to tar up the list's files.
>
>          #!/bin/sh
>          if [ "$1" = "" ]; then
>          	echo 'Usage: tar_list.sh <listname>'
>          	exit
>          fi
>
>          if [ ! -e /var/lib/mailman/lists/$1 ]; then
>          	echo "$1: No such list!"
>          	exit
>          fi
>
>          mkdir /tmp/$1
>          cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/
>
>          echo Creating $1_list.tar.gz ....
>          tar -czvf $1_list.tar.gz $1
>          mv $1_list.tar.gz /tmp/$1
>
>          cd /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/
>
>          echo Creating $1_archive.tar.gz ....
>          tar -czvf $1_archive.tar.gz $1
>          mv  $1_archive.tar.gz /tmp/$1
>
>          echo Creating $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz ....
>          tar -czvf $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz $1.mbox
>          mv $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz /tmp/$1
>
>          if [ -L /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/$1 ]; then
>          	touch /tmp/$1/$1_archive_is_public
>          fi
>
> The second script lives in ~mailman/bin on the receiving system and is
> called untar_list.sh.  It gets run by the mailman user, which must have
> a login shell, even if only temporarily.  If you don't have the root
> password on the remote system, or if ssh is forbidden for root, then
> change the account name to that of an unprivileged user on line 8 and 9.
>
>          #!/bin/sh
>          if [ "$2" = "" ]; then
>                  echo 'Usage: untar_list.sh <server> <listname>'
>                  exit
>          fi
>
>          cd ~/tmp/
>          echo "Give root password on remote system ..."
>          scp root@$1:/tmp/$2/* .
>          cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/
>
>          echo ""
>          echo "Creating list $2 ..."
>          tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_list.tar.gz
>
>          cd /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/
>
>          echo ""
>          echo "Creating archive for $2 ..."
>          tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_archive.tar.gz
>
>          echo "Creating archive mbox for $1 ..."
>          tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_archive_mbox.tar.gz
>
>          if [ -e ~/tmp/$2_archive_is_public ]; then
>          	ln
>          -s /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/$2 /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/$2
>          fi
>
>          echo""
>          echo "If no errors, delete files in ~/tmp and delete /tmp/$2
>          directory on remote system"
>
>
>


From roel at wagenaar.nu  Wed Nov 20 14:01:59 2013
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 14:01:59 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <528CA201.2030403@libertytrek.org>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com> 
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk> 
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com> 
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk> 
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com> 
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net> 
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com> 
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net> 
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com> 
 <1383680782.20384.33.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <528CA201.2030403@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <mpro.mwkc7b0dfp7000cqz@wagenaar.nu>

Tanstaafl <tanstaafl at libertytrek.org> wrote:

> (Sorry for replying to an older thread, I'm going back through older unread
> mails)
> 
> Maybe these should be made an official part of mailman's extra tools?
> 
> And maybe updated to work with MM3?
> 

And maybe you could stop TOP-posting?

-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

Why be difficult, when with a bit of effort, you can be impossible?

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Wed Nov 20 16:08:19 2013
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 09:08:19 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <mpro.mwkc7b0dfp7000cqz@wagenaar.nu>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383680782.20384.33.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <528CA201.2030403@libertytrek.org> <mpro.mwkc7b0dfp7000cqz@wagenaar.nu>
Message-ID: <1384960099.1948.4.camel@ubuntu>

On Wed, 2013-11-20 at 14:01 +0100, Roel Wagenaar wrote:
> And maybe you could stop TOP-posting?
> 
In my humble opinion, any post that's less that a visual page in length
is more conveniently read if it's top-posted, especially if it is in
reference to a much longer quoted post.  I know it's considered bad list
netiquette, but from a practical point of view, I consider it the more
convenient format.

Ultimately, it's the responsibility of the list moderator to decide
these things.

With humility and deep respect for everyone ....

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Everything works if you let it"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |     - The Roadie
http://www.fmp.com    |



From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov 20 16:45:44 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 00:45:44 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings
 with Gmail, etc.
In-Reply-To: <CALAwQWqAVzGwJN2Yy_d_-VdKrcB1YSGb4UURJn0VZL2b-Jj27A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAwQWrfGs5KPjN23Qy5BPLigp=m04N4P6xjy0s-H08LFWYe6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <87sivaj9jo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CALAwQWqAVzGwJN2Yy_d_-VdKrcB1YSGb4UURJn0VZL2b-Jj27A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87k3g3f55j.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Steven Clift writes:
 > Thanks Stephen.
 > 
 > Are most mailman hosts finding their mail in Gmail heading to the
 > "Promotions" tab or "Forums" optional tab?

I don't receive any Mailman mail at my Gmail address, so I can't say.
But hold that thought ... if you don't get any response, I'll ping
some of my gmail subscribers and ask them.  (Remind me after a week or
so, I've been unreliable at remembering promises recently.)




From adamsca at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 16:57:37 2013
From: adamsca at gmail.com (Christopher Adams)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 07:57:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <528C00CA.3070300@msapiro.net>
References: <CAA13W+9UqiRWMkFdwHkA0-YCvK3MXkDDiECErZZUDKy23m5CHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <528BC812.2040204@msapiro.net>
 <CAA13W+9yp2UG1J2=WWz4xFJcLuzQuUtUPtJ0aQTgS7BdgN=L7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <528BD756.4070405@msapiro.net>
 <CAA13W+_SuoE=SARcLFNGC7G=V=8fOddVYh6UZeMm_xjvQRoSng@mail.gmail.com>
 <528C00CA.3070300@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAA13W+-7bCfX88hYYcqJOYFi1PFm75LfeiO=ZpUfW5Fj-S5Mew@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

I had restarted Mailman several times and still, bounce processing was not
taking place and the bounce log had not been written since 11/13. Before I
left last night, I restarted it and then I noticed a flurry of activity,
with queued bounces being processed. I hadn't looked in the
/qfiles/bounces/ until this morning. Now I see that there is nothing
queued.

So, any idea of what might of happened to gum it up. Thanks for taking the
time to address this issue. It seemingly has corrected itself.



On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/19/2013 03:35 PM, Christopher Adams wrote:
> > There is no bounce score entry in the bounce log. As it turns out, there
> > has not been a bounce log generated since 11/13.
> >
> > Would BounceRunner show in a list of processes. If so, I don't see it.
>
> ps -fwC python
>
> or
>
> ps -fwu mailman
>
> should show all the qrunners with the commands that invoked them
> (including the runner name).
>
> e.g.
> $  ps -fwu mailman
> UID        PID  PPID  C STIME TTY          TIME CMD
> mailman  21122     1  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
> mailman  21123 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:03 /usr/bin/python2.7
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
> mailman  21124 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
> mailman  21125 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
> mailman  21126 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
> mailman  21127 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
> mailman  21128 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:08 /usr/bin/python2.7
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
> mailman  21129 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
> mailman  21130 21122  0 Nov18 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python2.7
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s
>
> If BounceRunner isn't running (since 11/13?) that would explain a lot.
>
>
> > Here is an entry in the qrunner log related to BounceRunner:
> >
> > Nov 19 04:02:36 2012 (29791) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
> > (pid: 27168, sig: None, sts: 2, class: BounceRunner, slice: 1/1)
> > [restarting]
>
>
> What happens daily at 04:02? Check your cron logs or /etc/cron.daily
>
> sts: 2 could be a missing file or directory, but there should be an
> entry in Mailman's error log from the same time.
>
> Are there queued bounces in the bounces queue (Mailman's qfiles/bounces/
> or wherever your package puts it (e.g. /var/spool/mailman/bounces in the
> RedHat/CentOS package).
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>



-- 
Christopher Adams
adamsca at gmail.com

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Wed Nov 20 17:23:38 2013
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:23:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <1384960099.1948.4.camel@ubuntu>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383680782.20384.33.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <528CA201.2030403@libertytrek.org>
 <mpro.mwkc7b0dfp7000cqz@wagenaar.nu> <1384960099.1948.4.camel@ubuntu>
Message-ID: <528CE20A.7040307@libertytrek.org>

On 2013-11-20 10:08 AM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-mailman at fmp.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-11-20 at 14:01 +0100, Roel Wagenaar wrote:
>> And maybe you could stop TOP-posting?
>>
> In my humble opinion, any post that's less that a visual page in length
> is more conveniently read if it's top-posted, especially if it is in
> reference to a much longer quoted post.  I know it's considered bad list
> netiquette, but from a practical point of view, I consider it the more
> convenient format.
>
> Ultimately, it's the responsibility of the list moderator to decide
> these things.
>
> With humility and deep respect for everyone ....

I wasn't going to dignify his loud and rude yammering with a response.

Normally I do bottom/inline post, but sometimes a top-post just makes 
more sense...

Anyway, sorry for being the cause of unnecessary noise...

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Nov 20 17:39:33 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 01:39:33 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
In-Reply-To: <1384960099.1948.4.camel@ubuntu>
References: <CAPJSDZYn4BmzL8wKuUAeon=S+sONXsr7oPAeMBqq+4M1gE+BOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104174718.GO10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZbq+YxLAU9=dk-L65JLSDN8HSS_Rr45ea7PiOxWMFzT0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131104181840.GP10820@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <CAPJSDZa6UqSp_QJzFj_MFTF8Nq9d=GS6LrOnmFBUDcdoXtR2EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <527869E5.7010008@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZbpWOGv99S9+pdMKxnK16U=-w+63OTx_JnCO_DxLCtQGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52793C84.2020106@msapiro.net>
 <CAPJSDZaM9xDL=YN2phqRRaK4=rtsVrBKKtfJBxV+M77nLGWJbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1383680782.20384.33.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <528CA201.2030403@libertytrek.org>
 <mpro.mwkc7b0dfp7000cqz@wagenaar.nu>
 <1384960099.1948.4.camel@ubuntu>
Message-ID: <87fvqrf2nu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:
 > On Wed, 2013-11-20 at 14:01 +0100, Roel Wagenaar wrote:
 > > And maybe you could stop TOP-posting?

That's a bit quick on the trigger.  I don't recall ever seeing a
top-post from "Tanstaafl" before, for one thing, and that moniker has
been around for as long as I can remember.  See also "handhelds"
(below).

 > In my humble opinion, any post that's less that a visual page in length
 > is more conveniently read if it's top-posted, especially if it is in
 > reference to a much longer quoted post.

"Don't top-post" is usually short for "don't top-post and trim the
quoted material".

If a top-post is really more readable, I'd question whether you need
*any* quoted material.  (Yeah, I know, you only get options like *not*
quoting if you use an Emacs-based MUA, and of course Emacs is listed
as a form of torture next to "waterboarding" in the Geneva Convention
on the treatment of prisoners of war....)

So I can see your point, but I think if you're going to have a rule,
interline posting is by far the better rule for lists like this one.

 > I know it's considered bad list netiquette, but from a practical
 > point of view, I consider it the more convenient format.

Depends on what you're used to.  See

http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/Teach/IntroSES/socsys.html

Also, the abysmally bad UIs of handheld devices' MUAs are turning the
tide in favor of top-posting (or, for the really perverse,
bottom-posting).

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Nov 20 23:33:06 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 14:33:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <CAA13W+-7bCfX88hYYcqJOYFi1PFm75LfeiO=ZpUfW5Fj-S5Mew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA13W+9UqiRWMkFdwHkA0-YCvK3MXkDDiECErZZUDKy23m5CHg@mail.gmail.com>	<528BC812.2040204@msapiro.net>	<CAA13W+9yp2UG1J2=WWz4xFJcLuzQuUtUPtJ0aQTgS7BdgN=L7A@mail.gmail.com>	<528BD756.4070405@msapiro.net>	<CAA13W+_SuoE=SARcLFNGC7G=V=8fOddVYh6UZeMm_xjvQRoSng@mail.gmail.com>	<528C00CA.3070300@msapiro.net>
 <CAA13W+-7bCfX88hYYcqJOYFi1PFm75LfeiO=ZpUfW5Fj-S5Mew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <528D38A2.4060102@msapiro.net>

On 11/20/2013 07:57 AM, Christopher Adams wrote:
> 
> So, any idea of what might of happened to gum it up. Thanks for taking
> the time to address this issue. It seemingly has corrected itself.


It appears that BounceRunner had died for some reason. To understand
more, I'd need to see the full Mailman qrunner log for the entire period
that things weren't working and also any Mailman error log entries from
times that BounceRunner exited according to the qrunner log.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Nov 23 20:40:44 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:40:44 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.17 release.
In-Reply-To: <51E30DF7.8020306@msapiro.net>
References: <51DF5301.7070802@msapiro.net> <51E30DF7.8020306@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <529104BC.60808@msapiro.net>

I am pleased to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.17.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.7 is recommended.

This release has two new features and a few bug fixes as detailed in
the attached README.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman
http://mailman.sourceforge.net/

Mailman 2.1.17 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



-------------- next part --------------
2.1.17 (23-Nov-2013)

  New Features

    - Handling of posts gated from usenet to a list via the Mail <-> News
      gateway is changed.  Formerly, no list membership, moderation or
      *_these_nonmembers checks were done.  Now, if the sender of the usenet
      post is a moderated member or a nonmember matching a *_these_nonmembers
      filter, those checks will be done and actions applied.  Nonmember posts
      from senders not matching a *_these_nonmembers filter are still accepted
      as before.  (LP: #1252575)

    - There is a new mm_cfg.py setting ANONYMOUS_LIST_KEEP_HEADERS.  Since it
      is not possible to know which non-standard headers in a message might
      reveal sender information, we now remove all headers from incoming posts
      to anonymous lists except those which match regular expressions in this
      list. The default setting keeps non X- headers except those known to
      reveal sender information, Mailman added X- headers and x-Spam- headers.
      See the description in Defaults.py for more information.  (LP: #1246039)

  i18n

    - The Japanese message catalog has been updated by SATOH Fumiyasu.
      (LP: #1248855)

  Bug Fixes and other patches

    - Added a reopen command to the sample init.d script in misc/mailman.in.
      (LP: #1251917)

    - Fixed a misspelling in Tagger.py causing an "unexpected keyword argument
      'Delete'" exception.  (LP: #1251495)

    - Fixed contrib/qmail-to-mailman.py to work with a user other than
      'mailman' and to recognize more listname-* addresses.  (LP: #412293)

    - Fixed a possible UnicodeDecodeError in bin/sync_members.  (LP: #1243343)

    - Fixed Makefile to not include $DESTDIR in paths compiled into .pyc
      files for traceback purposes.  (LP: #1241770)

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