<MM-List-Name> Página de Detalhes

between messages and use 'href=""' in the ToC, but then the
MUA would display all the headers and not decode any attachments.  I'm
sure your subscribers would riot if you did that to them!

So we're back to the original proposition: it cannot be done
trivially.

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 17 01:59:04 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 16:59:04 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1-click subscription confirmation?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <5490D558.5000206@msapiro.net>

On 12/16/2014 07:37 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 
> Are there a way to let subscribers be subscribed to the list right after
> clicking on the link in address confirmation e-mail without second step -
> pushing button on subscription page?

See the FAQ at  for instructions on where
to put list specific, domain specific or sitewide edited versions of
templates.

The template to change is verify.txt and the change to make is changing
the line

    %(confirmurl)s

to

    %(confirmurl)s?submit=1

so that following the resultant URL will act like coming from the
confirmation page via the submit button.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 17 02:27:11 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 17:27:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: 
References: <15229012.84.1418748975468.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
 <549078FD.1050109@msapiro.net>

Message-ID: <5490DBEF.9050107@msapiro.net>

On 12/16/2014 11:14 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
> 
> I don't believe you would need each message as separate MIME parts.  For reference I am going to copy out a template an admin of another list sent me - they are using Sympa.  This is a template they use for doing exactly the same thing.  I don't know anything about Sympa, but I think the template will give you a slightly better idea of what I am looking for.

So what you are really looking for is a third digest format which is
essentially the current plain text digest, but HTMLified to the extent
that the TOC contains tags like Subject 1 ... and
each message is preceded with a tag like  ... and the
rest of the digest outside of those is perhaps surrounded by  ...
 and a HEAD section with something like

to let long lines wrap to the window width.

This is probably doable without too much effort, but I have no plan to
do it. The side effects of adding a third digest format are messy.

If someone wanted to replace the current plain text digest for their own
list or site, say by making a site or list specific version of the
ToDigest handler, I don't think it would be two difficult, but there are
standards (RFC 1153 for plain digests, RFC 2046 for MIME digests) that
govern the format of these digest types. Thus, I wouldn't hijack one of
the two existing digest types for this new type.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Tue Dec 16 20:14:45 2014
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 19:14:45 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: <549078FD.1050109@msapiro.net>
References: <15229012.84.1418748975468.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
 <549078FD.1050109@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: 

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>On 12/16/2014 08:56 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
>> --- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" 

>>> Andrew Hodgson writes:

>>>> I run a high volume list (around 80 messages per day), and we have 
>>>> complaints from digest users that the digests are difficult to work 
>>>> with. One requested feature is could the digests be in HTML format, 
>>>> and a link be presented in the table of contents to go to each 
>>>> message. Can this be done in Mailman by working with the digest 
>>>> templates?

>>> No, it cannot be done without coding.

>Correct.

I pretty much thought as much, but wanted to check anyway.

>>> And it would not be easy. HTML does not provide a "mail message"
>>> element, so although it would be trivial to create the table of 
>>> contents, there is no good way to indicate what is at the other end 
>>> of those links.
...

>> I believe that what Andrew is really looking for is just something 
>> that could put in anchor links to the beginning of each message's test 
>> as the message is HTMLified.  I agree that it would require code, but 
>> I don't think that code would need to have semantic knowledge of mail 
>> messages; it only needs to know where the edge of each message is.

That was exactly what I was looking for, just didn't say it as well.

>It is not possible to do this at all for the plain text format digest since by definition, that contains no HTML.

I wouldn't look to do it for the plain text version, some users may not want this at all so would stick to the plain text version.  You could possibly look into creating a different digest type such as HTML indexed or similar, but I would see it as a completely different digest type.

>For the MIME format digest, I think Stephen is correct. The MIME digest currently has the following structure

>multipart/mixed
>    text/plain
>        (the boilerplate)
>    text/plain
>        (the digest_header if any)
>    text/plain
>         (the TOC)
>    multipart/digest
>        message/rfc822
>            (the first message)
>        message/rfc822
>            (the next message)
>    text/plain
>        (the digest_footer if any)

>One would have to create the TOC as text/html rather than text/plain and add links to the various message parts. These can't be anchor tags. Do do that would require HTMLifying the entire digest. They could probably be >RFC2393 mid: references though. That might not be too difficult to do, although various popular web mail clients, e.g. gmail, currently don't make it possible to open an individual digest message as a separate message, so how >they would deal with such a digest is unknown.

I don't believe you would need each message as separate MIME parts.  For reference I am going to copy out a template an admin of another list sent me - they are using Sympa.  This is a template they use for doing exactly the same thing.  I don't know anything about Sympa, but I think the template will give you a slightly better idea of what I am looking for.

Thanks.
Andrew. 

---cut here---

We worked on a new version of the digest plain.

You should try this template on a test list.

From: [% fromlist %]
To: [% to %]
Reply-to: [% replyto %]
Subject: [% FILTER qencode %][%|loc(list.name,date)%]%1 Digest %2[%END%] [% IF total_group > 1 -%]([% current_group %]/[% total_group %])[% END %][%END%]
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="[% boundary1 %]"

--[% boundary1 %]
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8";
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

[%|loc(list.name,date)%]%1 Digest %2[%END%] 

[%|loc%]Table of contents:[%END%]

[% FOREACH m = msg_list -%]
[% m.id %] - [% m.subject %] - [% m.from %] 
[% END %]

[% FOREACH m = msg_list -%]
[% m.id %] - Date: [% m.date %] Author: [% m.from %] 

Subject:  [% m.subject %] 

[% m.plain_body %]

 Answer to author
 <--> 
 Answer to list
 <--> 
Back to table of content

[% END %]

[%|loc(list.name,date)%]End of %1 Digest %2[%END%]

*********************************************

--[% boundary1 %]--

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 17 03:28:01 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 18:28:01 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: <549078FD.1050109@msapiro.net>
References: <15229012.84.1418748975468.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
 <549078FD.1050109@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5490EA31.5040601@msapiro.net>

On 12/16/2014 10:25 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> One would have to create the TOC as text/html rather than text/plain and
> add links to the various message parts. These can't be anchor tags. Do
> do that would require HTMLifying the entire digest. They could probably
> be RFC2393 mid: references though. That might not be too difficult to
> do, although various popular web mail clients, e.g. gmail, currently
> don't make it possible to open an individual digest message as a
> separate message, so how they would deal with such a digest is unknown.
> 
> I might experiment with this at some point, but I am not optimistic that
> a format can be created that would work with all the freemail clients.

There's a typo above. The correct RFC is RFC2392.

That notwithstanding, I tried taking a normal MIME digest and changing
the Content-Type of the TOC part from text/plain to text/html and
changing the actual raw TOC from:

Today's Topics:

   1. Subject 1 (Author)
   2. Subject 2 (Author)
   3. Subject 3 (Author)
   4. Subject 4 (Author)
   ...

to:

Today's Topics:

     Subject 1 (Author)

  Subject 2 (Author)

  Subject 3 (Author)

  Subject 4 (Author)
   ...

where "mid:..." referenced the actual Message-IDs of the messages. I
then opened that message with Thunderbird and it presented a nice
looking TOC with links, but when I clicked one, it asked me for an
application to handle the mid: URL scheme.

I then tried adding Content-ID: headers to the messages and referencing
those with cid:... URLs. This time Thunderbird at least understood what
cid: was, but hovering over the link showed the target as 'about:blank'
and clicking it went nowhere.

I didn't bother trying any other MUAs, but I conclude that this
approach, while easy to implement and still producing an RFC 2046
compliant message, is only going to be of benefit with limited if any MUAs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Dec 17 06:25:15 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:25:15 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: 
References: <15229012.84.1418748975468.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
 <549078FD.1050109@msapiro.net>

Message-ID: <87a92metl0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Andrew Hodgson writes:

 > We worked on a new version of the digest plain.
 > 
 > You should try this template on a test list.
 > 
 > From: [% fromlist %]
 > To: [% to %]
 > Reply-to: [% replyto %]
 > Subject: [% FILTER qencode %][%|loc(list.name,date)%]%1 Digest %2[%END%] [% IF total_group > 1 -%]([% current_group %]/[% total_group %])[% END %][%END%]
 > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="[% boundary1 %]"
 > 
 > --[% boundary1 %]
 > Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8";
 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I thought you said your users hate MIME digests?

 > [% m.plain_body %]

I suspect this means "Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce": images and
attachments give us indigestion.  Maybe no HTML, either.

Note that this template actually contains code which is interpreted by
the digesting engine, and as-is it probably is broken for foreign languages.

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Wed Dec 17 10:56:22 2014
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 10:56:22 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 16 Dec 2014, Andrew Hodgson wrote:

> I run a high volume list (around 80 messages per day), and we have 
> complaints from digest users that the digests are difficult to work 
> with.

I am subscribed in MIME digest mode to all lists which support them. I 
find they are a great way to receive messages once per day (more or less) 
without being pestered by single messages as they come.

Good mail user agents (MUAs) should have a way to deal with MIME digests 
internally. I am not familiar (nor comfortable) with "modern" MUAs 
(GUI-driven), since I use good old alpine.

The default way of alpine to deal with digests is slightly awkward. One 
presses V to View the digest index (which is not in a nice shape to read, 
I admit), then moves the current line on one of the RFC/822 items, and 
clicks, and accesses the individual message as a normal mail.

My way uses a custom key (D) to which I assigned the execution of a 
one-liner script which contains

  formail +1 -ds >! ~/mail/temporary

this splits the digest into a mail folder. The same key then goes to the 
index of the folder, so one can access each message as if it were a normal 
mail.

I presume all good MUAs should have a way to deal with MIME digests, it is 
just a matter for the user to find it. If you can find it for the most 
common MUAs used by your users, then you could write instructions in a FAQ

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Wed Dec 17 11:48:02 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 21:48:02 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: 
References: 

Message-ID: <134478C6-CBCE-4E02-99A0-C2A7839D86B1@nuw.org.au>

> On 17 Dec 2014, at 8:58 pm, Lucio Chiappetti  wrote:
> 
> I am subscribed in MIME digest mode to all lists which support them. I 
> find they are a great way to receive messages once per day (more or less) 
> without being pestered by single messages as they come.

.
.
.

> this splits the digest into a mail folder. The same key then goes to the 
> index of the folder, so one can access each message as if it were a normal 
> mail.

So this breaks the digest into separate emails? Wouldn't it be simpler to have a message rule that diverts the individual emails into a folder on arrival instead of using digest mode? Or doesn't Alpine support that kind of thing?

Peter Shute

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Wed Dec 17 12:17:50 2014
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:17:50 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: <134478C6-CBCE-4E02-99A0-C2A7839D86B1@nuw.org.au>
References: 

 <134478C6-CBCE-4E02-99A0-C2A7839D86B1@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 17 Dec 2014, Peter Shute wrote:

>> On 17 Dec 2014, at 8:58 pm, Lucio Chiappetti wrote:
>>
>> I am subscribed in MIME digest mode to all lists which support them. I
>> find they are a great way to receive messages once per day (more or less)
>> without being pestered by single messages as they come.

So you have found a way to bypass the digest and pestering me ! :-)

>> this splits the digest into a mail folder.

> So this breaks the digest into separate emails? Wouldn't it be simpler 
> to have a message rule that diverts the individual emails into a folder 
> on arrival instead of using digest mode? Or doesn't Alpine support that 
> kind of thing?

technically speaking, "on arrival" pertains to a mail delivery agent, and 
not to a MUA, which may operate when first entered by the user.

Perhaps it is possible to use Alpine "filter rules", but I never tried 
them and am not familiar with them.

On the other hand formail is part of procmail, which IS a delivery agent 
(actually on my SuSE it is the default delivery agent of sendmail). Any 
"filtering on arrival" can be more or less easily done with procmail.
I do an extensive use of it http://sax.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/Procmail/

So you could do what you propose straight with procmail !

It is mainly a matter of user preferences (YMMV ?)

I do divert some specific messages to specific folders, seminar 
announcements for one, and different level of spam for another.

Concerning mailing lists, I consider them of a more transient nature, I am 
not interested in keeping their messages "forever". So the MIME digest 
mechanism is fine insofar I want to receive all messages of the day at one 
moment. Then I usually look at the list of messages (almost all digests I 
know, notably the ones generated by mailman, have a list of subjects 
close to the top) ... if I see no subjects which interest me I just delete 
the entire digest. If I see something interesting, I press D, expand in a 
temporary folder, read the messages and reply to or archive the few really 
interesting ones.

I actually do use procmail on mailing lists to divert their messages 
(which usually are entire digests) to a specific folder when on vacation.
We can have pretty long vacations in this country :-)

I have divided the lists I am subscribed to in two categories and so have 
just two folders, one per category.

For the less interesting lists, when I am away I divert them to /dev/null.

For the most interesting lsits, I divert them to a cumulative folder, so I 
can read them when I am back.

This way my INBOX is not cluttered with mailing list messages, but only 
with messages from invididuals. This makes easy to sort the backlog when I 
return. Or to access the INBOX via a webmailer (which I may do once or 
twice per vacation period ... I am not the type which needs to be 
permanently connected :-))

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Wed Dec 17 21:54:21 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 07:54:21 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: 
References: 

 <134478C6-CBCE-4E02-99A0-C2A7839D86B1@nuw.org.au>

Message-ID: 

Lucio Chiappetti wrote:

> technically speaking, "on arrival" pertains to a mail 
> delivery agent, and not to a MUA, which may operate when 
> first entered by the user.

Yes. I've done it at the MDA with gmail, Exchange and I think Yahoo. I used to do it in the MUA when I used Outlook Express. That works ok if you're only reading email with one device.

> I have divided the lists I am subscribed to in two categories 
> and so have just two folders, one per category.
> 
> For the less interesting lists, when I am away I divert them 
> to /dev/null.
> 
> For the most interesting lsits, I divert them to a cumulative 
> folder, so I can read them when I am back.

You are a very sophisticated digests user. Perhaps there are sophisticated digest users on our list, but we also have plenty of unsophisticated ones, who demand that other list members don't clutter their digests with things they aren't interested in.

They create problems when they reply by constructing the reply by hand with a different subject line, or by simply replying to the digest email, with unchanged subject line and quoting the digest in full. The only reason they use digest mode in the first place is because they don't know how to create message rules to keep their Inbox clear of list mail.

You can probably tell I don't like digest mode at all. I'd rather encourage people to learn how to use message rules.

> I have divided the lists I am subscribed to in two categories and so have just two folders, one per category.

Personally I move all list mail to a folder per list. I've never thought of mixing mail from different lists, but that is an idea worth thinking about. It would simplify things greatly.

Peter Shute

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Dec 18 09:22:11 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 17:22:11 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: 
References: 

 <134478C6-CBCE-4E02-99A0-C2A7839D86B1@nuw.org.au>

Message-ID: <87tx0tcqq4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Peter Shute writes:

 > They create problems when they reply by constructing the reply by
 > hand with a different subject line, or by simply replying to the
 > digest email, with unchanged subject line and quoting the digest in
 > full. The only reason they use digest mode in the first place is
 > because they don't know how to create message rules to keep their
 > Inbox clear of list mail. 
 > 
 > You can probably tell I don't like digest mode at all. I'd rather
 > encourage people to learn how to use message rules.

Yes, it's a shame that to be a popular MUA you have to suck.  None of
the above are necessary concommittents of digest mode.  They happen
because things that the MUA could deal with with only a tiny bit of
thought on the part of the programmer are ignored in favor of tweaking
the gradients used on the buttons.

Digest messages would actually be a better workflow for your users if
the MUAs bothered to implement:

    1.  Display digest messages in the summary as single messages.

    2.  If the user clicks on the digest message, it is opened as a
        folder, not as a message.

This is *such* a no-brainer, and it shouldn't be hard to do (as
implementing MUA features goes) since most MUAs already have to deal
with both mbox imports (very similar to "plain" digests) and MIME
structure.

Message rules OTOH are a serious cognitive burden, even on experienced
users.  At least for me, several of my "communities" overlap, and my
employer has turned into my most unruly source of "spam" (not to
mention the fact that a lot of *real* spam gets accepted by its
mailing lists!)  GMail's "filter mail like this" feature does a *very*
poor job of creating usable filters for them.  Especially, it doesn't
seem to know about how to determine that mail is forwarded through a
list (and so "mail like this" should use "List-ID" and "List-Post",
not "From" or "Subject")

If that's a common experience, it means that users need to learn how
"author" is defined (which, especially with DMARC From-munging and
Outlook's "on behalf of" mistreatment of Mailman mail, is often hardly
intuitive to the average user), how to properly specify list tags in
Subject, and so on.

I don't disagree with you that with current popular MUAs, you'd be
better off with your users learning how to use rules, but really,
digest mode *should* be a feature. :-(

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Thu Dec 18 11:48:35 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 21:48:35 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: <87tx0tcqq4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: 

 <134478C6-CBCE-4E02-99A0-C2A7839D86B1@nuw.org.au>

 <87tx0tcqq4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <0C55A665-45E6-4CBC-8BE2-A73D52D655ED@nuw.org.au>

> On 18 Dec 2014, at 7:22 pm, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:
> 
> Digest messages would actually be a better workflow for your users if
> the MUAs bothered to implement:
> 
>    1.  Display digest messages in the summary as single messages.

Are there any MUAs that can do that?

>    2.  If the user clicks on the digest message, it is opened as a
>        folder, not as a message.

I don't understand what you mean there.

Peter Shute 

From xie.47 at osu.edu  Thu Dec 18 21:02:24 2014
From: xie.47 at osu.edu (Xie, Wei)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 20:02:24 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Emergency moderation of all list traffic is set to
	'Yes'
Message-ID: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DD60DFE@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>

Mark,

When Emergency moderation of all list traffic is set to 'Yes', all posted messages should be held for moderation.  Should moderation notices be sent to all owners for moderation?

We have one customer to set " Emergency moderation of all list traffic" to 'Yes', all posted messages are really held, but owners do not receive moderation notices. Is this normal?

Our mailman version is 2.18rc3.

Thanks,

Carl Xie

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 18 23:07:41 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 14:07:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Emergency moderation of all list traffic is set
	to 'Yes'
In-Reply-To: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DD60DFE@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>
References: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DD60DFE@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <6AA8F365-2501-4B73-9187-E2050CB3AF8C@msapiro.net>

On December 18, 2014 12:02:24 PM PST, "Xie, Wei"  wrote:
>
>We have one customer to set " Emergency moderation of all list traffic"
>to 'Yes', all posted messages are really held, but owners do not
>receive moderation notices. Is this normal?

Yes. This is deliberate.  It is felt that in an emergency moderation situation, owners don't want to be inundated with held message notices.

-- 
Mark Sapiro 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. [Unpaid endorsement]

From jra at baylink.com  Fri Dec 19 05:06:12 2014
From: jra at baylink.com (Jay Ashworth)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 23:06:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Emergency moderation of all list traffic is
	set	to 'Yes'
In-Reply-To: <6AA8F365-2501-4B73-9187-E2050CB3AF8C@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <33258958.440.1418961971956.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Sapiro" 
> On December 18, 2014 12:02:24 PM PST, "Xie, Wei" 
> wrote:

> >We have one customer to set " Emergency moderation of all list
> >traffic" to 'Yes', all posted messages are really held, but owners do not
> >receive moderation notices. Is this normal?
> 
> Yes. This is deliberate. It is felt that in an emergency moderation
> situation, owners don't want to be inundated with held message
> notices.

Or, in short, "it *says* emergency; don't expect it to act like everything's
normal".  :-)

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       jra at baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates       http://www.bcp38.info          2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA      BCP38: Ask For It By Name!           +1 727 647 1274

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Fri Dec 19 10:19:02 2014
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 10:19:02 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: <0C55A665-45E6-4CBC-8BE2-A73D52D655ED@nuw.org.au>
References: <0C55A665-45E6-4CBC-8BE2-A73D52D655ED@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: 

>>    1.  Display digest messages in the summary as single messages.
>
> Are there any MUAs that can do that?
>
>>    2.  If the user clicks on the digest message, it is opened as a
>>        folder, not as a message.

As I said before, Alpine can do that or be instructed to do that. I hope 
it is allowed to post a few screendumps to demonstrate

The mailindex.png shows part of my MUA index screen. The last message 
numbered 34 is a digest from this mailing list.

  - If I click on it, it will open the entire digest as a single message
  - If I then give command V it will show the screen in maildigest.png,
    i.e. "attachment index"

This is default action. The "attachment index" is not very perspicuous
but if you click on any of the entries numberd 3,n and labelled 
"Message/RFC822" you will open the corresponding e-mail message.

This satisfies your item 1 in three clicks

Instead if you start from the MUA index screen, select message 34 with the 
cursor and type shift-D, you are prompted for a folder collection/ folder 
name (it proposes the folder name "temporary" so if you agree and do not 
have to change the folder collection where it is located, just just press 
return, and you get a folder index screen like the third attachment 
maildigestindex.png

This satisfies your item 2 in a min of 2 clicks.
However it is not standard behaviour, it is my personal customization. I 
had to play with programmable keys and write a one-liner external script 
to support it.

But ... yes, you can   :-)

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Dec 19 10:42:46 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 18:42:46 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: 
References: <0C55A665-45E6-4CBC-8BE2-A73D52D655ED@nuw.org.au>

Message-ID: <87oar0c6w9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lucio Chiappetti writes:

 > I hope it is allowed to post a few screendumps to demonstrate

Unfortunately, Mailman @python.org doesn't pass those, and they don't
get into mail-archive.com because it's subscribed by mail, not direct
from the Mailman daemon.

 > This satisfies your item 1 in three clicks
 > This satisfies your item 2 in a min of 2 clicks.

Actually, most Emacs-based MUAs are able to treat digests as folders
by default.  No customizations required.

The ones I've used are also able to "explode" digests into single
messages.  But for most purposes treating them as folders is more
convenient.

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Fri Dec 19 12:22:38 2014
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 12:22:38 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: <87oar0c6w9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <87oar0c6w9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 19 Dec 2014, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Lucio Chiappetti writes:
>
> > I hope it is allowed to post a few screendumps to demonstrate
>
> Unfortunately, Mailman @python.org doesn't pass those,

OK, should be here (do not know why first got a different name)

http://i62.tinypic.com/2l94j5s.png
http://tinypic.com/r/syv5mu/8
http://tinypic.com/r/33ykoyc/8

> Actually, most Emacs-based MUAs are able to treat digests as folders
> by default.  No customizations required.

Then you are beyond my mark, and possibly both about average user.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Dec 19 14:13:22 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 22:13:22 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: 
References: <87oar0c6w9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Message-ID: <87mw6jdbpp.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lucio Chiappetti writes:

 > > Actually, most Emacs-based MUAs are able to treat digests as folders
 > > by default.  No customizations required.
 > 
 > Then you are beyond my mark,

Not really.  My primary MUA is VM, which presents a rather simple
menubar & toolbar interface to the average user.  However, a lot of
intelligent/sophisticated/too-smart-for-their-own-good/too-much-free-
time-on-their-hands hackers have tweaked things so that most actions
do something sensible most of the time.  (Of course, if you want to
it's easy enough to access the more advanced features via keyboard.)

The big problem with Emacs-based MUAs is that it's way too easy to
escape into Emacs itself and never find your way back to the safety of
the WIMP-y MUA. :-)

 > and possibly both about average user.

Yeah, that's why I didn't suggest asking them to get real MUAs.

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Fri Dec 19 15:01:14 2014
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 09:01:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest indexes
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <54942FAA.4010207@libertytrek.org>

On 12/16/2014 6:40 AM, Andrew Hodgson  wrote:
> I run a high volume list (around 80 messages per day), and we have
> complaints from digest users that the digests are difficult to work
> with. One requested feature is could the digests be in HTML format, and
> a link be presented in the table of contents to go to each message. Can
> this be done in Mailman by working with the digest templates?

See this thread from back in 2010 when I asked for the very same thing,
but in much more detail:

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2010-February/020958.html

From xie.47 at osu.edu  Fri Dec 19 18:26:25 2014
From: xie.47 at osu.edu (Xie, Wei)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 17:26:25 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] digest setting
Message-ID: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DD62343@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>

Mark,

I have a question about two our digest settings - how do the two settings work.

1) How big in Kb should a digest be before it gets sent out? 0 implies no maximum size.(Edit digest_size_threshhold) 1000

My understanding when total size of posted messages reaches 1000KB, the digest volume will be sent out to all digest users; when the size does not reach 1000KB, the digest volume will not be sent. Maybe within one day, digest users can receive multiply issues with same volume number; maybe within one day, digest uses do not receive any digest email.

2) Should a digest be dispatched daily when the size threshold isn't reached?(Edit digest_send_periodic) Yes

The setting lets me confusing. When above size threshold 1000KB isn't reached within one day, will all digest users receive a digest or not?  I do the tests - when size threshold is not reached, I can't receive digest volume every day. When size threshold is reached, I can receive multiply volumes within one day if I send enough many tests; or I can receive one digest volume with one day if I send emails over 1000KB; or I can receive one new digest volume within several days (How often should a new digest volume be started? Daily) if I send some small emails every day.

One of customers wants to receive daily digest volume every day. 

How do we set the above two settings?

Thanks,

Carl

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 19 21:05:07 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 12:05:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] digest setting
In-Reply-To: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DD62343@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>
References: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DD62343@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <549484F3.3070001@msapiro.net>

On 12/19/2014 09:26 AM, Xie, Wei wrote:
> 
> I have a question about two our digest settings - how do the two settings work.
> 
> 1) How big in Kb should a digest be before it gets sent out? 0 implies no maximum size.(Edit digest_size_threshhold) 1000
> 
> My understanding when total size of posted messages reaches 1000KB, the digest volume will be sent out to all digest users; when the size does not reach 1000KB, the digest volume will not be sent. Maybe within one day, digest users can receive multiply issues with same volume number; maybe within one day, digest uses do not receive any digest email.

Yes, if the list is active and the approximate size of the digest
reaches digest_size_threshhold multiple times in a day, a digest will be
sent each of these times [1]. As far as incrementing the volume number
is concerned, this occurs periodically based on digest_volume_frequency
and has nothing to do with the number of digests.

> 2) Should a digest be dispatched daily when the size threshold isn't reached?(Edit digest_send_periodic) Yes
> 
> The setting lets me confusing. When above size threshold 1000KB isn't reached within one day, will all digest users receive a digest or not?  I do the tests - when size threshold is not reached, I can't receive digest volume every day. When size threshold is reached, I can receive multiply volumes within one day if I send enough many tests; or I can receive one digest volume with one day if I send emails over 1000KB; or I can receive one new digest volume within several days (How often should a new digest volume be started? Daily) if I send some small emails every day.

If digest_send_periodic is yes, a digest will be sent whenever
cron/senddigests runs and there are any messages since the previous
digest.By default, Mailman's crontab specifies running cron/senddigests
daily at noon.

Again note that digest_volume_frequency has nothing to do with when
digests are sent. It only controls how often the digest volume number is
incremented.

> One of customers wants to receive daily digest volume every day. 
> 
> How do we set the above two settings?

Assuming cron is running with a default crontab, digest_send_periodic =
Yes will send a digest daily at noon if there have been any messages
since the prior digest (regardless of how that was sent).

Additionally and independently, if digest_size_threshhold is non-zero
[2], a digest will be sent whenever the size of the mailbox in which
messages are accumulated for the digest reaches digest_size_threshhold.

[1] This can cause lots of digests. The digest reaches the threshold
size and is sent. A user replies to the digest, quoting the entire
digest in the reply. This single message is now large enough to trigger
another digest and the process continues ...

[2] Prior to Mailman 2.1.16, there was a bug
 that caused a
digest_size_threshhold setting of zero to produce a digest on every
message rather than not on size at all.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Dec 22 23:53:13 2014
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:53:13 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Understanding patterns of unsubscribe
Message-ID: <20141222225312.GA26120@ando.pearwood.info>

Hi all,

Back in September, I migrated an announcement-only mailing list from 
Yahoo to mailman, with approximately 1800 email addresses. An unknown 
number of these were dead.

The mailing list I am running sends out one, maybe two, emails a month, 
at around the same time of the month. It's not a discussion list, so 
there are no replies from subscribers.

I expected that the first month, there would be a lot of automatic 
unsubscriptions, as the dead addresses were noted and removed, and then 
in subsequent months there might only be a trickle of automatic 
removals. To my surprise though, there has been a steady pattern of mass 
unsubscriptions each month, around 100-200 each month following the 
posted announcement.

I'm not sure whether this is normal (if it is, unless the number of 
unsubscriptions begins to fall soon, I'll soon be left with no 
subscribers) or whether I'm doing something wrong.

Here are my bounce processing settings:

bounce_processing = Yes
bounce_score_threshold = 4.0
bounce_info_stale_after = 65
bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings = 3
bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_interval = 10

Remembering that I only send out 1 or 2 emails every 30 days (give or 
take a couple of days in either direction), does this seem reasonable? 
Or is my bounce processing too strict?

Thanks in advance,

-- 
Steve

From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 23 00:18:18 2014
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 10:18:18 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo spam detection
Message-ID: <20141222231818.GB26120@ando.pearwood.info>

Some of my Yahoo subscribers are reporting that emails from my mailing 
list are being flagged as spam. As far as I can tell, I'm not using 
spammy words, and the emails are plain text not HTML. I have SPF set up.

One of the Yahoo subscribers kindly forwarded me the full headers and I 
can see these which appear relevant:

X-YahooFilteredBulk:
    150.101.137.129
Received-SPF:
    pass (domain of pearwood.info designates 150.101.137.129 as 
    permitted sender)
X-Originating-IP:
    [150.101.137.129]
Authentication-Results:
    mta1310.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=pearwood.info; domainkeys=neutral 
    (no sig); from=pearwood.info; dkim=neutral (no sig)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered:
    true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result:
    AqD1AA1PlVR20UxqPGdsb2JhbABBGoNYWIMEs1KFGUqBUIYAhFwBgQKCMQMgdBc
    BAQEBAQYBAQEBODuEDgYZAQgREgMFAgYYCgQDAQIGAiQCBRYHCAIBBgMCAQIBDx
    AICgQeBQYCAgEUAQIBAgKHdwMQCTy6DYFwhGOJUQ2Fa4EhgWqGfwGCOYJMCgQDA
    QKEfgWDfTAGhB8rgjCDBYJSSYF/gUGCDXQwgjOCBgwhgzaCH4IZgmyCfoFzKjEB
    AQkBdwkXgSABAQE
X-IronPort-SPAM:
    SPAM

Googling suggests that nobody except Cisco can decipher the 
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam header, and they refuse to tell even their 
customers what it means, let alone people like me.

Can anyone suggest something I can do to convince Yahoo I'm not sending 
spam?

Thanks,

-- 
Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 23 00:57:56 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 15:57:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Understanding patterns of unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <20141222225312.GA26120@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <20141222225312.GA26120@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <5498B004.80301@msapiro.net>

On 12/22/2014 02:53 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> Back in September, I migrated an announcement-only mailing list from 
> Yahoo to mailman, with approximately 1800 email addresses. An unknown 
> number of these were dead.

Doesn't Yahoo process bounces from dead addresses :(

> Here are my bounce processing settings:
> 
> bounce_processing = Yes
> bounce_score_threshold = 4.0
> bounce_info_stale_after = 65
> bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings = 3
> bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_interval = 10
> 
> Remembering that I only send out 1 or 2 emails every 30 days (give or 
> take a couple of days in either direction), does this seem reasonable? 
> Or is my bounce processing too strict?

I don't think it's too strict. I might actually lower
bounce_score_threshold from 4.0 to 3.0, but here's what I would expect
with your settings:

A user has to bounce on 4 separate days, i.e. 4 messages in your case,
with less than 65 days between bounces, at which point the user's bounce
score will reach 4 and the user's delivery will be disabled by bounce
and if bounce_notify_owner_on_disable is Yes, you will get a notice of
the disable with the triggering bounce attached.

This won't happen until you've sent at least 4 messages to the list,
i.e. you won't see anything for 2 to 4 months.

When the user's delivery is disabled, she is sent a warning, and then
two more at 10 day intervals and then is removed after 10 more days,
i.e. 30 days after delivery was disabled. If
bounce_notify_owner_on_removal is Yes, you will be notified of this.

Note that the unsubscribes are not directly tied to a recent post.
Unsubscribes occur because the user's delivery was disabled 30 days prior.

Bounce scoring and disabling does not necessarily occur immediately
after a post. In many cases it will because the recipients MX will not
accept the message from the Mailman server, but in other cases, errors
may cause delayed delivery which doesn't become fatal the a few days. In
other cases, there are several hops to the ultimate delivery, and the
bounce DSN doesn't make it back to the Mailman server for up to a few days.

Still, I wouldn't expect a steady incremental removal such as you describe.

Note that things may not be as I describe. The behavior I describe is
correct for all Mailman 2.1.x versions except 2.1.5 and 2.1.6+ for sites
which have set VERP_PROBES = Yes in mm_cfg.py (Pre 2.1.5 there were no
VERP probes, in 2.1.5 VERP_PROBES = Yes was the default, since that
release the default is VERP_PROBES = No).

If VERP_PROBES is Yes, when a users bounce score reaches the threshold,
the user's score is reset and the user is sent a probe message with a
VERPed envelope sender, and only if and when the probe bounces is the
user's delivery disabled.

Note also that the sending of all but the first warning to the user and
the ultimate unsubscription is under control of Mailman's cron/disabled
and won't occur if that cron is not being run.

If you still have questions about this, tell us what Mailman version
this is, whether or not you are receiving bounce_notify_owner_on_disable
notices (if it's Off, turn it On), how they correlate with the
unsubscribes and whether the attached DSNs look like real bounces, and
if you have access to Mailman's logs, what's in the 'bounce' log going
back as far as you can.

Note that it is possible, though I would think unlikely in the volume
you notice, the users don't bounce every message, but bounce often
enough to have delivery ultimately disabled.

It occurs to me that a much more likely scenario is you are on a hosted
Mailman instance or using a 'smarthost' outgoing MTA, and some fraction
of every list post is being bounced because you are running afoul of
some recipient limit/rate limit imposed by the host.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 23 01:10:57 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 16:10:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo spam detection
In-Reply-To: <20141222231818.GB26120@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <20141222231818.GB26120@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <5498B311.7050609@msapiro.net>

On 12/22/2014 03:18 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> Can anyone suggest something I can do to convince Yahoo I'm not sending 
> spam?

See the FAQ at .

Other than that, if Yahoo were a real ISP and not a freemail ESP that
gets nothing from it's users other than their eyeballs, the users
themselves might have some clout to achieve delivery of desired mail to
their inboxes. As has been said, "friends don't let friends use Yahoo".

Note that I have a yahoo.com (as well as an aol.com and a gmail.com)
address just to see some of the problems for myself. My outgoing list
mail all has valid SPF and a valid DKIM signature from the list domain,
yet occasionally, for no reason I can determine, a list post will end up
in my Yahoo spam folder. In my case, this is the exception, and at least
the post is delivered as spam and not rejected or silently discarded, YMMV.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From heller at deepsoft.com  Tue Dec 23 00:48:44 2014
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 18:48:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Understanding patterns of unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <20141222225312.GA26120@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <20141222225312.GA26120@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <201412222348.sBMNmiSF005604@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

At Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:53:13 +1100 "Steven D'Aprano"  wrote:

> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Back in September, I migrated an announcement-only mailing list from 
> Yahoo to mailman, with approximately 1800 email addresses. An unknown 
> number of these were dead.
> 
> The mailing list I am running sends out one, maybe two, emails a month, 
> at around the same time of the month. It's not a discussion list, so 
> there are no replies from subscribers.
> 
> I expected that the first month, there would be a lot of automatic 
> unsubscriptions, as the dead addresses were noted and removed, and then 
> in subsequent months there might only be a trickle of automatic 
> removals. To my surprise though, there has been a steady pattern of mass 
> unsubscriptions each month, around 100-200 each month following the 
> posted announcement.
> 
> I'm not sure whether this is normal (if it is, unless the number of 
> unsubscriptions begins to fall soon, I'll soon be left with no 
> subscribers) or whether I'm doing something wrong.

Are these mass removals automatic or manual? That is, is the list doing this 
or are your subscribers doing it?

Some notes:  

1) What are you doing about DMARC, DKIM, and ADSP? Remember, *Yahoo* has a strict
reject DMARC policy. Of course this really kicks in if a Yahoo person posts.
It *you* are the only poster and are posting from a non-Yahoo address (that is
from a domain that does not have a strict reject DMARC policy), then this does
not apply.

2) YahooGroups *does not* (AFAIK) send out monthly reminders. Mailman does.  
Your Yahoo users might be thinking the Mailman monthly reminder is some sort 
of robotic spam message and rejecting it.

2) It is possible that many of your Yahoo users are actually alive and well, 
but that YahooGroups suspended mail delivery of the YahooGroups mailings. Now 
that you switched to Mailman, these users are 'suddenly' getting these 
messages from a mailing list they have completely forgotten about.

> 
> Here are my bounce processing settings:
> 
> bounce_processing = Yes
> bounce_score_threshold = 4.0
> bounce_info_stale_after = 65
> bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings = 3
> bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_interval = 10
> 
> Remembering that I only send out 1 or 2 emails every 30 days (give or 
> take a couple of days in either direction), does this seem reasonable? 
> Or is my bounce processing too strict?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 23 03:55:09 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 18:55:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Understanding patterns of unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <5498B004.80301@msapiro.net>
References: <20141222225312.GA26120@ando.pearwood.info>
 <5498B004.80301@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5498D98D.80808@msapiro.net>

On 12/22/2014 03:57 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> If you still have questions about this, tell us what Mailman version
> this is, whether or not you are receiving bounce_notify_owner_on_disable
> notices (if it's Off, turn it On), how they correlate with the
> unsubscribes and whether the attached DSNs look like real bounces, and
> if you have access to Mailman's logs, what's in the 'bounce' log going
> back as far as you can.

I meant to add here that if you have command line access to your Mailman
server, there is a script at
 that you can use to
print the bounce information for members with bounces. It will print for
example, for a member who hasn't yet reached threshold

and for a member soon to be removed from a list with threshold = 3.0

The 'cookie' is the token sent to the user in the warning notice that
can be used by the user to reset her bouncing status and enable delivery.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 23 04:36:54 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 19:36:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo spam detection
In-Reply-To: <20141222231818.GB26120@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <20141222231818.GB26120@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <5498E356.3090700@msapiro.net>

On 12/22/2014 03:18 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> One of the Yahoo subscribers kindly forwarded me the full headers and I 
> can see these which appear relevant:
> 
> 
> X-YahooFilteredBulk:
>     150.101.137.129
> Received-SPF:
>     pass (domain of pearwood.info designates 150.101.137.129 as 
>     permitted sender)
> X-Originating-IP:
>     [150.101.137.129]
> Authentication-Results:
>     mta1310.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=pearwood.info; domainkeys=neutral 
>     (no sig); from=pearwood.info; dkim=neutral (no sig)
> X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered:
>     true
> X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result:
>     AqD1AA1PlVR20UxqPGdsb2JhbABBGoNYWIMEs1KFGUqBUIYAhFwBgQKCMQMgdBc
>     BAQEBAQYBAQEBODuEDgYZAQgREgMFAgYYCgQDAQIGAiQCBRYHCAIBBgMCAQIBDx
>     AICgQeBQYCAgEUAQIBAgKHdwMQCTy6DYFwhGOJUQ2Fa4EhgWqGfwGCOYJMCgQDA
>     QKEfgWDfTAGhB8rgjCDBYJSSYF/gUGCDXQwgjOCBgwhgzaCH4IZgmyCfoFzKjEB
>     AQkBdwkXgSABAQE
> X-IronPort-SPAM:
>     SPAM

Looking more closely, I see issues here. First, none of the mail I
receive at yahoo.com has any X-Ironport-* headers. This is not Yahoo
using an IronPort appliance. It may be your outgoing MTA or some other
MTA in the delivery chain. Where are these headers in the context of the
Received: headers. That will tell you which MTA added them.

It appears your domain is pearwood.info and the IP address of the
sending server is 150.101.137.129.

There may be configuration issues around this.

A server sending mail should have a rDNS PTR record pointing to a domain
and that domain should have an A record with the IP address of the
server. See
. The
absence of this is a big red flag for many ISPs

pearwood.info has no A record. the rDNS PTR for IP 150.101.137.129 is
ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net which does have an A record with IP
150.101.137.129 so maybe this is OK, but it is something to think about.

Note that it is not necessary that the server's canonical name be the
domain of the list. It helps if SPF permits the server for the domain
and it does in your case, but if I had to guess, I'd guess the

> X-YahooFilteredBulk:
>     150.101.137.129

is the relevant header and it means Yahoo doesn't like your IP for some
reason.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Dec 23 05:13:35 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 13:13:35 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Yahoo spam detection
In-Reply-To: <20141222231818.GB26120@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <20141222231818.GB26120@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <21656.60399.429943.923833@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Steven D'Aprano writes:

 > Some of my Yahoo subscribers are reporting that emails from my
 > mailing list are being flagged as spam. As far as I can tell, I'm
 > not using spammy words, and the emails are plain text not HTML. I
 > have SPF set up.

I think it might be helpful to set up DKIM as well.  The standard
prohibits differentiating between unsigned mail and mail with a failed
signature, but you are allowed to decrease spamminess scores for a
successful signature verification, and also for From alignment (aka
DMARC pass).  (Yes, I believe that Yahoo conforms to standards in this
respect, though I can't be sure.)

The FAQ as mentioned by Mark already (fastest consult in the West!):
http://wiki.list.org/x/4oA9

A useful tidbit from that FAQ: Yahoo's feedback loop is at
http://feedbackloop.yahoo.net/index.php

 > X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered:
 >     true

I hate IronPort.  My employer uses it and enables [SPAM] subject tags,
so it's *really* obvious that about 40% (!!) of spam is *not* caught,
and on the other hand about 15% of ham is tagged SPAM or SUSPECT SPAM.
Why bother?

Regards,

From steve at pearwood.info  Fri Dec 26 00:31:49 2014
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 10:31:49 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo spam detection
In-Reply-To: <21656.60399.429943.923833@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20141222231818.GB26120@ando.pearwood.info>
 <21656.60399.429943.923833@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20141225233142.GN6580@ando.pearwood.info>

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 01:13:35PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
> 
>  > Some of my Yahoo subscribers are reporting that emails from my
>  > mailing list are being flagged as spam. As far as I can tell, I'm
>  > not using spammy words, and the emails are plain text not HTML. I
>  > have SPF set up.
> 
> I think it might be helpful to set up DKIM as well.  The standard
> prohibits differentiating between unsigned mail and mail with a failed
> signature, but you are allowed to decrease spamminess scores for a
> successful signature verification, and also for From alignment (aka
> DMARC pass).  (Yes, I believe that Yahoo conforms to standards in this
> respect, though I can't be sure.)

Okay, I will look into that.

> The FAQ as mentioned by Mark already (fastest consult in the West!):
> http://wiki.list.org/x/4oA9
> 
> A useful tidbit from that FAQ: Yahoo's feedback loop is at
> http://feedbackloop.yahoo.net/index.php
> 
>  > X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered:
>  >     true
> 
> I hate IronPort.  My employer uses it and enables [SPAM] subject tags,
> so it's *really* obvious that about 40% (!!) of spam is *not* caught,
> and on the other hand about 15% of ham is tagged SPAM or SUSPECT SPAM.
> Why bother?

But it's from Cisco, so you know it must be good! I've seen people on 
the Internet make exactly that claim: it is sold by Cisco, therefore you 
know it must be reliable.

-- 
Steven

From steve at pearwood.info  Fri Dec 26 02:04:31 2014
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 12:04:31 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo spam detection
In-Reply-To: <5498E356.3090700@msapiro.net>
References: <20141222231818.GB26120@ando.pearwood.info>
 <5498E356.3090700@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20141226010431.GR6580@ando.pearwood.info>

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 07:36:54PM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/22/2014 03:18 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > 
> > One of the Yahoo subscribers kindly forwarded me the full headers and I 
> > can see these which appear relevant:
> > 
> > 
> > X-YahooFilteredBulk:
> >     150.101.137.129
> > Received-SPF:
> >     pass (domain of pearwood.info designates 150.101.137.129 as 
> >     permitted sender)
> > X-Originating-IP:
> >     [150.101.137.129]
> > Authentication-Results:
> >     mta1310.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=pearwood.info; domainkeys=neutral 
> >     (no sig); from=pearwood.info; dkim=neutral (no sig)
> > X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered:
> >     true
> > X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result:
> >     AqD1AA1PlVR20UxqPGdsb2JhbABBGoNYWIMEs1KFGUqBUIYAhFwBgQKCMQMgdBc
> >     BAQEBAQYBAQEBODuEDgYZAQgREgMFAgYYCgQDAQIGAiQCBRYHCAIBBgMCAQIBDx
> >     AICgQeBQYCAgEUAQIBAgKHdwMQCTy6DYFwhGOJUQ2Fa4EhgWqGfwGCOYJMCgQDA
> >     QKEfgWDfTAGhB8rgjCDBYJSSYF/gUGCDXQwgjOCBgwhgzaCH4IZgmyCfoFzKjEB
> >     AQkBdwkXgSABAQE
> > X-IronPort-SPAM:
> >     SPAM
> 
> 
> 
> Looking more closely, I see issues here. First, none of the mail I
> receive at yahoo.com has any X-Ironport-* headers. This is not Yahoo
> using an IronPort appliance. It may be your outgoing MTA or some other
> MTA in the delivery chain. Where are these headers in the context of the
> Received: headers. That will tell you which MTA added them.

The Received headers look like this:

Received:
    from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net) 
    (150.101.137.129) by mta1310.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP;
    Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:32:13 +0000
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered:
    true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result:
    [gibberish removed]
X-IronPort-SPAM:
    SPAM
Received:
    from ppp118-209-76-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net (HELO 
    pearwood.info) ([118.209.76.106]) by
    ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 20 Dec 2014 21:01:15 +1030
Received:
    from ando.pearwood.info (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by 
    pearwood.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id B67FE120737; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 
    21:11:52 +1100 (EST)

Internode is my ISP, and I shall talk to them, but I don't see any sign 
that they are adding X-IronPort-* headers to my outgoing mail. I 
subscribe my work email address, and they don't get any IronPort headers.

> It appears your domain is pearwood.info and the IP address of the
> sending server is 150.101.137.129.

Yes, my domain is pearwood.info. 150.101.137.129 appears to be (one of?) 
my ISP's mail server(s). I have been advised that because I have a 
dynamic IP address, I should have my outgoing mail go via my ISP's mail 
server. So I have this in my postfix config:

myhostname = pearwood.info
mydomain = pearwood.info
relayhost = mail.internode.on.net

> There may be configuration issues around this.
> 
> A server sending mail should have a rDNS PTR record pointing to a domain
> and that domain should have an A record with the IP address of the
> server. See
> . The
> absence of this is a big red flag for many ISPs
> 
> pearwood.info has no A record. the rDNS PTR for IP 150.101.137.129 is
> ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net which does have an A record with IP
> 150.101.137.129 so maybe this is OK, but it is something to think about.

Do you think I should set up an A record for pearwood.info?

> Note that it is not necessary that the server's canonical name be the
> domain of the list. It helps if SPF permits the server for the domain
> and it does in your case, but if I had to guess, I'd guess the
> 
> > X-YahooFilteredBulk:
> >     150.101.137.129
> 
> is the relevant header and it means Yahoo doesn't like your IP for some
> reason.

I shall certainly talk to my ISP. Is it worth trying to talk to Yahoo? 
Are they likely to care? I've been told by some Yahoo users that Yahoo's 
unofficial policy seems to be that *all* bulk email not originating from 
Yahoo itself is treated as ipso facto spam.

Thanks very much for your help, and may you have a great Christmas and 
New Year.

-- 
Steven

From steve at pearwood.info  Fri Dec 26 02:27:34 2014
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 12:27:34 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Understanding patterns of unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <201412222348.sBMNmiSF005604@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
References: <20141222225312.GA26120@ando.pearwood.info>
 <201412222348.sBMNmiSF005604@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20141226012734.GS6580@ando.pearwood.info>

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 06:48:44PM -0500, Robert Heller wrote:

> Are these mass removals automatic or manual? That is, is the list doing this 
> or are your subscribers doing it?

They seem to be automatic. Unless 80+ people all decide to unsubscribe 
within one minute of each other :-)

> Some notes:  
> 
> 1) What are you doing about DMARC, DKIM, and ADSP? Remember, *Yahoo* has a strict
> reject DMARC policy. Of course this really kicks in if a Yahoo person posts.
> It *you* are the only poster and are posting from a non-Yahoo address (that is
> from a domain that does not have a strict reject DMARC policy), then this does
> not apply.

I am the only poster. It is an announce-only mailing list.

> 2) YahooGroups *does not* (AFAIK) send out monthly reminders. Mailman does.  
> Your Yahoo users might be thinking the Mailman monthly reminder is some sort 
> of robotic spam message and rejecting it.

I have monthly password reminders set to No.

> 2) It is possible that many of your Yahoo users are actually alive and well, 
> but that YahooGroups suspended mail delivery of the YahooGroups mailings. Now 
> that you switched to Mailman, these users are 'suddenly' getting these 
> messages from a mailing list they have completely forgotten about.

If they were manual unsubscribes, I would agree.

-- 
Steven

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 26 04:21:10 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 19:21:10 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo spam detection
In-Reply-To: <20141226010431.GR6580@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <20141222231818.GB26120@ando.pearwood.info>
 <5498E356.3090700@msapiro.net> <20141226010431.GR6580@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <549CD426.10302@msapiro.net>

On 12/25/2014 05:04 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> The Received headers look like this:
> 
> Received:
>     from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net) 
>     (150.101.137.129) by mta1310.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP;
>     Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:32:13 +0000
> X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered:
>     true
> X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result:
>     [gibberish removed]
> X-IronPort-SPAM:
>     SPAM
> Received:
>     from ppp118-209-76-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net (HELO 
>     pearwood.info) ([118.209.76.106]) by
>     ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 20 Dec 2014 21:01:15 +1030
> Received:
>     from ando.pearwood.info (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by 
>     pearwood.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id B67FE120737; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 
>     21:11:52 +1100 (EST)

So, assuming the report from the Yahoo user has the headers in the
actual order that they appear in the message, the X-IronPort-* headers
were added by ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net just after receiving the
message from what appears to be your pearwood.info outgoing MTA and
prior to delivering the message to mta1310.mail.bf1.yahoo.com.

> Internode is my ISP, and I shall talk to them, but I don't see any sign 
> that they are adding X-IronPort-* headers to my outgoing mail. I 
> subscribe my work email address, and they don't get any IronPort headers.

So that's an inconsistency, but only internode can explain why.

In any case, I'm sure that Yahoo didn't add those headers, and I doubt
that they took them into account in their decision to deliver the mail
to the user's spam folder. Then again. only Yahoo knows for sure and
they won't tell.

> Do you think I should set up an A record for pearwood.info?

I don't think it would help. Plus, since it is a dynamic IP, you would
have to do this through some dynamic DNS service.

>> Note that it is not necessary that the server's canonical name be the
>> domain of the list. It helps if SPF permits the server for the domain
>> and it does in your case, but if I had to guess, I'd guess the
>>
>>> X-YahooFilteredBulk:
>>>     150.101.137.129
>>
>> is the relevant header and it means Yahoo doesn't like your IP for some
>> reason.
> 
> I shall certainly talk to my ISP. Is it worth trying to talk to Yahoo?

I don't know. Based on my experiences with similar, non-yahoo ESPs and
ISPs, it depends on your tenacity and your tolerance for frustration.

My experience is if you hammer long, hard and intelligently enough, you
will never get an intelligent response that actually addresses the real
issue, but the problem will 'magically' resolve.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From greg at headingup.net  Fri Dec 26 18:21:59 2014
From: greg at headingup.net (Greg Sims)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 09:21:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Robots.txt
Message-ID: 

Hi Everyone,

I hope you had a good Christmas with friends and family.

We developed custom subscription pages for the mailing lists supported by
our website.  Although these pages show on our SERP listings, so do the
Info Pages provided by Mailman.  Please try the following search query on
Google and you will see what I mean:

site:raystedman.org email

This is confusing for our users so I would like to hide all the pages
containing "mailman" and "pipermail" from the SERP listings.

I read the archives of this list and found a couple of entries.  The answer
seems to be including "Disallows" in our robots.txt file.  I did this as
you can see here -- towards the bottom of the file:

http://www.raystedman.org/robots.txt

This has been in place for four weeks so I do not believe it is working.  I
believe this problem is there needs to be a robots.txt file for each
subdomain.  In this case, mailman lives in the lists.raystedman.org
subdomain.  Is there a way to have a robots.txt file for the
lists.raystedman.org subdomain?

Thanks in advance for your assistance!  Greg

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec 27 20:03:35 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 11:03:35 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Robots.txt
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <549F0287.7000606@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2014 09:21 AM, Greg Sims wrote:
> 
> I read the archives of this list and found a couple of entries.  The answer
> seems to be including "Disallows" in our robots.txt file.  I did this as
> you can see here -- towards the bottom of the file:
> 
> http://www.raystedman.org/robots.txt
> 
> This has been in place for four weeks so I do not believe it is working.  I
> believe this problem is there needs to be a robots.txt file for each
> subdomain.  In this case, mailman lives in the lists.raystedman.org
> subdomain.  Is there a way to have a robots.txt file for the
> lists.raystedman.org subdomain?

Absolutely. Just put it in the root directory that contains the page
which is served when you go to . I.e., put
it where it will be served if you go to

However, note that can take a loooong time for pages to age out of
search results.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp  Sun Dec 28 01:19:41 2014
From: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 09:19:41 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Robots.txt
In-Reply-To: <549F0287.7000606@msapiro.net>
References: 
 <549F0287.7000606@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87tx0g39sy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > On 12/26/2014 09:21 AM, Greg Sims wrote:

 > > Is there a way to have a robots.txt file for the
 > > lists.raystedman.org subdomain?
 > 
 > Absolutely. Just put it in the root directory that contains the page
 > which is served when you go to . I.e., put
 > it where it will be served if you go to
 > 

In my case, I'm not even sure where that is (I think it's
/var/www/way/over/there, see below, but there's some funky CGI script
aliasing going on), and anyway it's different from where my fingers
expect to find robots.txt.  So I use

        ServerName tracker.xemacs.org
        DocumentRoot /var/www/way/over/there
        Alias /robots.txt /var/www/robots-tracker.xemacs.org
        ScriptAlias ...

where /var/www is the root of the "file system" I allow Apache to
see.  The order of Alias and ScriptAlias matters, IIRC.

Season to taste if your webserver isn't Apache.

From greg at headingup.net  Sun Dec 28 02:30:28 2014
From: greg at headingup.net (Greg Sims)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 17:30:28 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Robots.txt
In-Reply-To: <549F0287.7000606@msapiro.net>
References: 
 <549F0287.7000606@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: 

Thanks Mark and Stephen,

This is not straightforward in my case either.  I am running mailman under
Plesk.  There exists the file:

/etc/httpd/conf.d/mailman.conf

This files sets up a ScriptAlias for /mailman/ and an Alias for
/pipermail/.  I added the following to this file:

Alias /robots.txt /var/www/vhosts/raystedman.org/not-drupal/lists-robots.txt

This directory is a convenient location within the webroot of
RayStedman.org.  I created lists-robots.txt in the directory above and
restarted Apache.  The result is the existence of:

http://lists.raystedman.org/robots.txt

which hides all the files for the lists.raystedman.org subdomain from the
search engines.  I will now sit back a see how long it takes for these urls
in this subdomain to be delisted.  I will give them a push via google
webmaster tools which offers an option to delist a URL.

Thanks again for your help guys!

Happy New Year, Greg

On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 12/26/2014 09:21 AM, Greg Sims wrote:
> >
> > I read the archives of this list and found a couple of entries.  The
> answer
> > seems to be including "Disallows" in our robots.txt file.  I did this as
> > you can see here -- towards the bottom of the file:
> >
> > http://www.raystedman.org/robots.txt
> >
> > This has been in place for four weeks so I do not believe it is
> working.  I
> > believe this problem is there needs to be a robots.txt file for each
> > subdomain.  In this case, mailman lives in the lists.raystedman.org
> > subdomain.  Is there a way to have a robots.txt file for the
> > lists.raystedman.org subdomain?
>
>
> Absolutely. Just put it in the root directory that contains the page
> which is served when you go to . I.e., put
> it where it will be served if you go to
> 
>
> However, note that can take a loooong time for pages to age out of
> search results.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/greg%40headingup.net
>

From matt.moore at okfn.org  Tue Dec 30 13:50:25 2014
From: matt.moore at okfn.org (Matt Moore)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 12:50:25 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 translations not quite right
In-Reply-To: <5479263E.2010902@msapiro.net>
References: 
 <5479263E.2010902@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: 

Mark,

I've looked carefully at that template (
https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/cienciaaberta ) and the template on
this list - https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-i18n and I
really can't notice the difference.

Could you please give me a pointer as to which bits are wrong?

Cheers,

Matt

On 29 November 2014 at 01:49, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 11/28/2014 07:24 AM, Matt Moore wrote:
> >
> > As an example:
> >
> > https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/cienciaaberta
> >
> > You can see that the top is in English and the bottom is in Portugese
> > (Brazilian).
> >
> > Can anyone give me any useful pointers as to what can be done to fix?  My
> > google-fu has rather failed me on this one.
>
>
> I can't speak to anything other than the listinfo page in your example,
> but someone has edited that template, possibly by the Edit the public
> HTML pages and text files -> General list information page link in the
> web list admin interface or possibly by using the info in the FAQ at
> . The default pt_BR template looks fully
> translated to me.
>
> You won't find anything logged about badly translated templates or
> missing or incorrect translations in message catalogs. Mailman just
> takes what's there and assumes that's what's wanted.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/matt.moore%40okfn.org
>

-- 
Matthew Moore
Sysadmin
Open Knowledge - www.okfn.org
Skype - notmatt

From barry at list.org  Tue Dec 30 20:39:38 2014
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 14:39:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED: GNU Mailman (core) 3.0b5
Message-ID: <20141230143938.48b96570@marathon>

Hello friends of Mailman, and Happy New Year!

    You can roll that stone
    To the top of the hill
    Drag your ball and chain behind you

Once again, it's time for the traditional "avoid the copyright year bump"
release.  I'm happy to announce the fifth beta release of Mailman 3.0 core,
code named "Carve Away The Stone".

We're really quite close now, but this release is a little different.  Those
of you who follow the proceedings on the mailman-developers mailing list will
note that I have ported the core engine to Python 3.4.  While it is my intent
to release Mailman 3.0 core[*] final as a Python 3 application, some of the
details are still be hashed out on the mailing list, and in the code base.
For this reason, I am releasing two "flavors" of 3.0b5:

 * "A" release, which remains on Python 2.7
 * "B" release, which is only compatible with Python 3.4

The A and B releases are functionally equivalent.  There may be different bugs
in them, but they both implement the exact same feature set, with the only
difference being the version of Python they are compatible with.  Some time
early in 2015, I will be merging the Python 3 branch back into trunk, and
dropping Python 2 support.

I would encourage you to download the "B" release and try it out.  If you do
try both, please submit bugs for any functional differences you encounter.

You can download GNU Mailman 3.0b5 core (both "A" and "B" releases) from the
Python Cheeseshop:

    https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman/3.0.0b5

The documentation is available online at:

    http://pythonhosted.org/mailman

Mailman 3.0 is released under the terms of the GNU General Public License
version 3 or later.

Detailed changes in 3.0b5 are available here:

    http://tinyurl.com/p9fpgrh

Bugs can be reported here:

    https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman

Special thanks go to Abhilash Raj and Aur?lien Bompard, who implemented the
conversion of the ORM layer from Storm to SQLAlchemy and Alembic.  Thanks also
to Kurt Griffiths for his excellent Falcon Framework package, which now
replaces restish as our WSGI-compatible REST layer.  Both of these changes
were critical in allowing me to port the core to Python 3.

Enjoy, and Happy New Year.
-Barry

[*] Postorious and HyperKitty will port to Python 3 on their own time
schedule, and may remain Python 2 applications for the final release of the
GNU Mailman Suite.  mailman.client, the standalone REST client will be a
bilingual library, supporting both Python 2 and Python 3.
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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 30 21:02:03 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 12:02:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 translations not quite right
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<5479263E.2010902@msapiro.net>

Message-ID: <54A304BB.7000006@msapiro.net>

On 12/30/2014 04:50 AM, Matt Moore wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> I've looked carefully at that template (
> https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/cienciaaberta ) and the template
> on this list - https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-i18n and
> I really can't notice the difference.

Those are not the templates. They are the pages rendered from the templates.

You need to go to the list's web admin interface and follow the link
"Other Administrative Activities -> Edit the public HTML pages and text
files" in the section at the upper right ("Outras Atividades
Administrativas -> Editar as p?ginas HTML p?blicas e arquivos de texto"
in pt_BR) and follow the General list information page (P?gina de
informa??es gerais da lista) link on the resulting page.

This will show you the template your list is using. I have attached a
copy of the default pt_BR listinfo.html template. If you think it is OK,
you can revert your list to the default by removing any list specific,
domain specific or sitewide edited version of this template. This may be
found at /var/lib/mailman/lists/cienciaaberta/pt_BR/listinfo.html in a
Debian package, or it may be in
/var/lib/mailman/templates/site/pt_BR/listinfo.html or
/var/lib/mailman/templates/lists.okfn.org/pt_BR/listinfo.html - See the
FAQ at  for more info.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
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From matt.moore at okfn.org  Wed Dec 31 14:07:16 2014
From: matt.moore at okfn.org (Matt Moore)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 13:07:16 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 translations not quite right
In-Reply-To: <54A304BB.7000006@msapiro.net>
References: 
 <5479263E.2010902@msapiro.net>

 <54A304BB.7000006@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: 

Hi Mark,

I probably should have been a bit more detailed, I was looking at the
template as you described through the Mailman UI and I was comparing that
with the source code from the rendered page, they're quite similar.
However your extra information and the pointer to look in the folder made
me realise what the mistake was.  I'd assumed that the template was
supposed to be in English and that some programming magic happened
elsewhere to change the lanuage.  That's obviously not the case, so I put
the copy of the translation into the pt_BR folder as you suggested and that
fixed the issue.

Many thanks for the help and detailed explanations.  I really appreciate it.

Cheers,

Matt

On 30 December 2014 at 20:02, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 12/30/2014 04:50 AM, Matt Moore wrote:
> > Mark,
> >
> > I've looked carefully at that template (
> > https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/cienciaaberta ) and the template
> > on this list - https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-i18n and
> > I really can't notice the difference.
>
>
> Those are not the templates. They are the pages rendered from the
> templates.
>
> You need to go to the list's web admin interface and follow the link
> "Other Administrative Activities -> Edit the public HTML pages and text
> files" in the section at the upper right ("Outras Atividades
> Administrativas -> Editar as p?ginas HTML p?blicas e arquivos de texto"
> in pt_BR) and follow the General list information page (P?gina de
> informa??es gerais da lista) link on the resulting page.
>
> This will show you the template your list is using. I have attached a
> copy of the default pt_BR listinfo.html template. If you think it is OK,
> you can revert your list to the default by removing any list specific,
> domain specific or sitewide edited version of this template. This may be
> found at /var/lib/mailman/lists/cienciaaberta/pt_BR/listinfo.html in a
> Debian package, or it may be in
> /var/lib/mailman/templates/site/pt_BR/listinfo.html or
> /var/lib/mailman/templates/lists.okfn.org/pt_BR/listinfo.html - See the
> FAQ at  for more info.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

-- 
Matthew Moore
Sysadmin
Open Knowledge - www.okfn.org
Skype - notmatt