From sylvain at opensource-expert.com Sun Jun 1 11:38:48 2014 From: sylvain at opensource-expert.com (Sylvain Viart) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2014 11:38:48 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] looking for beta tester: attachment-move custom handler Message-ID: <538AF4A8.4000606@opensource-expert.com> Hi, I'm looking for beta tester for my custom Handler. Before to put it in production for my client. I've setup a list here: http://mailman.opensource-expert.com/mailman/listinfo/attachment-move Subscribe and post attachment. They're supposed to be detached and posted to a remote hosting. The email content is modified, a link to the moved content is added in txt and html. Give it a try. I faced a bug with mixed encoding. Normally this is corrected. You can make it crash? Go ahead. If it crashes nothing is delivered. The handler is installed in the pipeline that way: # inserting in the pipeline mlist.pipeline = [ 'SpamDetect', 'Approve', 'Replybot', 'Moderate', 'Hold', # inserting the Handler here. 'AttachmentMove', 'MimeDel', 'Scrubber', 'Emergency', 'Tagger', 'CalcRecips', 'AvoidDuplicates', 'Cleanse', 'CleanseDKIM', 'CookHeaders', 'ToDigest', 'ToArchive', 'ToUsenet', 'AfterDelivery', 'Acknowledge', 'ToOutgoing', ] Feedback are welcome. The github repository doesn't host the last revision yet. The documentation for installation needs update too. Sylvain. From uckelman at nomic.net Mon Jun 2 14:38:45 2014 From: uckelman at nomic.net (Joel Uckelman) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 05:38:45 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action isn't working In-Reply-To: <53873E73.1040604@msapiro.net> References: <20140528124124.5F24D361E2D@charybdis.ellipsis.cx> <5386ABC3.3050603@msapiro.net> <20140529100338.2ABE3361E32@charybdis.ellipsis.cx> <53873E73.1040604@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <20140602123846.0F780360BC6@charybdis.ellipsis.cx> Thus spake Mark Sapiro: > > Did you restart Mailman after installing the python-dns package? I think this was the problem---I forgot to restart Mailman after installing python-dns. It took a few days after asking about this before I got any further posts which would trigger From munging, but now I am seeing the From munging. Thanks, everyone, for your help with this. -- J. From sylvain at opensource-expert.com Mon Jun 2 11:41:02 2014 From: sylvain at opensource-expert.com (Sylvain Viart) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 11:41:02 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] testing attachment-move custom handler In-Reply-To: <538AF4A8.4000606@opensource-expert.com> References: <538AF4A8.4000606@opensource-expert.com> Message-ID: <538C46AE.5050601@opensource-expert.com> Hi, We have done some tests. Thanks people testing it. Le 01/06/2014 11:38, Sylvain Viart a ?crit : > I'm looking for beta tester for my custom Handler. > http://mailman.opensource-expert.com/mailman/listinfo/attachment-move Hosting in done in France and could be slow to reach from foreign countries. I've updated the code and the doc https://github.com/Sylvain303/mailman-AttachmentMove The remaining problems: => content encoding. If you send an email encoded in us-ascii it is rewritten in utf-8 to handle the text footer. For some unknown reason (to me) the part are now base64 encoded (may be due to multi-byte characters). Is it a bad thing for spam detection that the content is base64? Or should I let it that way. I've disabled the use of the borrowed calculate_attachments_dir(mlist, msg, msgdata) function. As it creates unique name but only for a single message. Attachment are now stored locally on a dedicated folder 'attachments-moved' next to 'attachments' used by Scrubber.py. This ensure unique filename on the remote storage. Of course it introduces storage and inode fillup? => Is there some cron or scheduled code available? There's a crontab.in an also one installed by the debian package. => About translation of the footer, what is the procedure? I found a huge: http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Managing+Translations http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/i18nhowto I don't know if I will manage to write a human bearable procedure to install translation as well? Regards, Sylvain. From mark at msapiro.net Tue Jun 3 06:18:24 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 21:18:24 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] testing attachment-move custom handler In-Reply-To: <538C46AE.5050601@opensource-expert.com> References: <538AF4A8.4000606@opensource-expert.com> <538C46AE.5050601@opensource-expert.com> Message-ID: <538D4C90.6040705@msapiro.net> On 06/02/2014 02:41 AM, Sylvain Viart wrote: > > The remaining problems: > > => content encoding. > If you send an email encoded in us-ascii it is rewritten in utf-8 to > handle the text footer. > > For some unknown reason (to me) the part are now base64 encoded (may be > due to multi-byte characters). > Is it a bad thing for spam detection that the content is base64? > Or should I let it that way. base64 is the default encoding for utf-8 in the Python email library. See . ... > Of course it introduces storage and inode fillup? > => Is there some cron or scheduled code available? To do what? > There's a crontab.in an also one installed by the debian package. Mailman has several scripts in its cron directory which need to be run by cron to provide various functionality. The GNU Mailman distribution includes cron/crontab.in which is intended to be installed as the Mailman user's crontab. Various packages may modify this and may install it as a system rather than a user crontab. > => About translation of the footer, what is the procedure? > I found a huge: > http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Managing+Translations > http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/i18nhowto > > I don't know if I will manage to write a human bearable procedure to > install translation as well? The procedure uses Mailman's i18n._() function (an implementation of gettext plus interpolation of variables) to map English strings into their target language translations using a message catalog for the target language. See, e.g., . Basically, the procedure is to code all your strings in English within the i18n._() function. Then in Mailman's messages directory, run make marked.files to add your handler to the list of files that have strings to be translated ... make potfile to update the mailman.pot template file, and finally, just make to msgmerge the mailman.pot with the various message catalogs, or just e.g. msgmerge fr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po to do just French. Then you edit the mailman.po to add the translations of the new strings and use msgfmt or Mailman's bin/msgfmt.py to compile the mailman.po into the binary mailman.mo for the target language and install it. Note that if you are thinking about i18n from the point of view of your process being ultimately incorporated into the Mailman distribution, I think your use case is not of sufficient general interest to warrant that. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From sylvain at opensource-expert.com Tue Jun 3 09:56:47 2014 From: sylvain at opensource-expert.com (Sylvain Viart) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 09:56:47 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] testing attachment-move custom handler In-Reply-To: <538D4C90.6040705@msapiro.net> References: <538AF4A8.4000606@opensource-expert.com> <538C46AE.5050601@opensource-expert.com> <538D4C90.6040705@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <538D7FBF.7070000@opensource-expert.com> Hi, Le 03/06/2014 06:18, Mark Sapiro a ?crit : > Of course it introduces storage and inode fillup? > => Is there some cron or scheduled code available? > > To do what? Purging old files. I'm digging the way I should document the installation process. As this Handler is suppose to introduce easiness, after this installation, installing it is quite hard. So, I guess I should also provide a purge. A single oneliner bash script may accomplish this goal. > Note that if you are thinking about i18n from the point of view of > your process being ultimately incorporated into the Mailman > distribution, I think your use case is not of sufficient general > interest to warrant that. The purpose of attachment-move is to: Integrate remotely (server side) the behavior of hosting the attached file online (cloud hosting if you want). Mailman doesn't provide yet a /simple way/ to do that. But I found the behavior of the whole mailing list very powerful, but very complicated for basic user. User who knows how to attach a document, but certainly not how to upload it somewhere, and even know less how to link it back in the email. And even lesser the impact of sending this attachment to hundred or thousand peoples? No to speak about the headache of the administrator to keep is hosting delivering email? Your advise about i18n are good thanks. My question was more about how to translate part of the text inserted in the mail. As I use the Handler for French an English on the same server? Your indication seems to confirm, that integrating translation on an external Handler seems hard enough to make it fail most list administrator. By the way, your reply on gettext an make command is excellent, an would probably help googling for such topic. Given this information and also because of the text I use is so small, I may pass it by the list configuration first. mlist.translation_attachment_moved = 'Attachment available here:' Of course if the list is multi-language it wont work. But it can be a good start. Thank you, for your valuable help. Regards, Sylvain. __ > I'm looking for beta tester for this custom mailman's Handler. > http://mailman.opensource-expert.com/mailman/listinfo/attachment-move > Hosting in done in France and could be slow to reach from foreign > countries. > Open Source code and installation doc here: > https://github.com/Sylvain303/mailman-AttachmentMove From frank.bonnet at esiee.fr Tue Jun 3 10:32:59 2014 From: frank.bonnet at esiee.fr (BONNET, Frank) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 10:32:59 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hide footer URL in posts ? Message-ID: Hello I'm new to mailman :-) Is there a way to hide/remove the footer added by mailman to distributed posts that give the URL of the list ? Thank you From mark at msapiro.net Tue Jun 3 20:38:49 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 11:38:49 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hide footer URL in posts ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <538E1639.9070601@msapiro.net> On 06/03/2014 01:32 AM, BONNET, Frank wrote: > > Is there a way to hide/remove the footer added by mailman to distributed > posts > that give the URL of the list ? The footer attached to non-digest messages is in the list's web admin interface at Non-digest options -> msg_footer and that attached to digests is Digest options -> digest_footer. You can set these to anything you want or set them empty to not add footers at all. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From rclemings at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 00:33:52 2014 From: rclemings at gmail.com (Russell Clemings) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 15:33:52 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.18-1 in cPanel Message-ID: At least the "current" release of v11.44, as of last week. cPanel v11.42 is still on Mailman 2.1.17. https://documentation.cpanel.net/display/ALD/11.44+Change+Log https://documentation.cpanel.net/display/ALD/11.42+Change+Log From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Jun 4 11:18:13 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2014 18:18:13 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hide footer URL in posts ? In-Reply-To: <538E1639.9070601@msapiro.net> References: <538E1639.9070601@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <87egz53uei.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mark Sapiro writes: > The footer attached to non-digest messages is in the list's web admin > interface at Non-digest options -> msg_footer and that attached to > digests is Digest options -> digest_footer. > > You can set these to anything you want or set them empty to not add > footers at all. Ah, Mark forgot to add his usual reminder that empty means "not even whitespace" (or did you change that recently, Mark?) Keep hitting backspace until you're sure there's nothing left! From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Jun 4 11:19:17 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2014 18:19:17 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.18-1 in cPanel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87d2ep3ucq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Russell Clemings writes: > At least the "current" release of v11.44, as of last week. Well, good for them! That doesn't mean all their clients will upgrade, of course, but it sure does make it a lot easier. From sm at noisynotes.com Wed Jun 4 12:56:01 2014 From: sm at noisynotes.com (Steve Matzura) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2014 06:56:01 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Install from repository, or build from source? Message-ID: I am a site admin for a system built on Debian version 7 (Wheezy). The current available mailman package distribution version is 2.1.15 but I want to use 2.1.18-1, which means, unless I miss my guess, it's got to be built from source. If this isn't so, I'd greatly appreciate knowing where and how to obtain the installable package. I've tried including the version number, etc., in apt-get, but as of right now,k no go. Thanks in advance. From malwinse at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 07:02:57 2014 From: malwinse at gmail.com (M Winther) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 07:02:57 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails with extension .se rejected Message-ID: Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition). If I use any of my my Swedish email addresses (.se) my messages keep bouncing on account of "iajsdiscussionlist.org: DNS server failure." Yahoo groups intermittently has the same problem. However, in this case the messages just disappear. So I must use my google email address. I have always had this problem with my ".se" emails. Sometimes when posting to a journal, for instance, my message is regarded as spam. I suppose it has to do with the fact that ".se" is not a known American state. I have also observed that messages from other contributors never arrive in my inbox, although they appear in the archive. But this occurs more rarely. The list software also tends to corrupt messages in the archive by inserting digits instead of characters (for citation characters, etc.), when the user is *not* using plain text with "dumb" citation signs, etc. I suppose this has to do with the moderator copying a big message for the sake of reviewing, and then posting it without regard to the format. In messages of mine, citation characters (right arrow) are sometimes randomly inserted. I use plain text that is line wrapped. Moreover, a drawback is that messages cannot be removed afterwards. I don't know how professors, concerned about their professional reputation, can tolerate this. After all, when partaking in discussion lists, we sometimes say things which we later regret, on account of changed views, for instance. M. Winther From mark at msapiro.net Wed Jun 4 16:37:28 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2014 07:37:28 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hide footer URL in posts ? In-Reply-To: <87egz53uei.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <538E1639.9070601@msapiro.net> <87egz53uei.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <538F2F28.5020204@msapiro.net> On 06/04/2014 02:18 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > Ah, Mark forgot to add his usual reminder that empty means "not even > whitespace" (or did you change that recently, Mark?) No, it hasn't changed, but perhaps it should. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Jun 4 17:06:22 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 00:06:22 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails with extension .se rejected In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <874n004sup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> M Winther writes: > If I use any of my my Swedish email addresses (.se) my messages > keep bouncing on account of "iajsdiscussionlist.org: DNS server > failure." Yahoo groups intermittently has the same > problem. However, in this case the messages just disappear. So I > must use my google email address. I have always had this problem > with my ".se" emails. Sometimes when posting to a journal, for > instance, my message is regarded as spam. I suppose it has to do > with the fact that ".se" is not a known American state. This doesn't sound like it's related to Mailman at all, especially since other mail-related applications have the same problem on occasion. From what you write here, I can only suggest you talk to the admins of your mail host. > I have also observed that messages from other contributors never > arrive in my inbox, although they appear in the archive. But this > occurs more rarely. This doesn't either. > The list software also tends to corrupt messages in the archive by > inserting digits instead of characters (for citation characters, > etc.), when the user is *not* using plain text with "dumb" citation > signs, etc. If it's possible to take a look at the archives, please let us know where to find them. I suspect that what you are describing is called "HTML entities", which are a way of describing any character in the world in a way such that any web browser can display it, no matter what language the computer speaks to its user. But I can't say without actually looking at the file. > I suppose this has to do with the moderator copying a big message > for the sake of reviewing, and then posting it without regard to > the format. That's hard to say. You'd have to ask the moderator about that. > In messages of mine, citation characters (right arrow) are sometimes > randomly inserted. Would that happen to correspond to the case where the word "From" appears at the left margin? If so, that is not Mailman's doing. It is done by the mail system somewhere along the line. Again, a URL to a "corrupt" message would make further discussion a lot simpler. > I use plain text that is line wrapped. Moreover, a drawback is that > messages cannot be removed afterwards. I don't know how professors, > concerned about their professional reputation, can tolerate > this. After all, when partaking in discussion lists, we sometimes > say things which we later regret, on account of changed views, for > instance. The fact is that you cannot reliably retract anything once you've sent an email. You can't call it back, and arbitrarily many copies can be made for free. Furthermore, the recipient's copy or the archive copy is just as official as the sender's file copy. If you want control over the medium, use a blog. (Even then people can keep copies, but at least your copy is the official one.) From mark at msapiro.net Wed Jun 4 17:08:20 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2014 08:08:20 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails with extension .se rejected In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <538F3664.1020909@msapiro.net> On 06/03/2014 10:02 PM, M Winther wrote: > Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition). This has been the archiver for Mailman since 1.0. It says nothing about your Mailman version. > If I use any of my my Swedish email addresses (.se) my messages keep > bouncing on account of "iajsdiscussionlist.org: DNS server failure." This is not a Mailman issue per se. It has to do with some MTA between you and iajsdiscussionlist.org. If I had to guess, I'd say that for some reason, the outgoing MTA for your .se addresses is unable to successfully find the MX and A records for iajsdiscussionlist.org. > Yahoo groups intermittently has the same problem. However, in this case > the messages just disappear. That's probably Yahoo discarding the message as spam. > So I must use my google email address. I > have always had this problem with my ".se" emails. Sometimes when > posting to a journal, for instance, my message is regarded as spam. I > suppose it has to do with the fact that ".se" is not a known American > state. I doubt that. > I have also observed that messages from other contributors never arrive > in my inbox, although they appear in the archive. But this occurs more > rarely. That is probably due to some filtering in your incoming mail chain. > The list software also tends to corrupt messages in the archive by > inserting digits instead of characters (for citation characters, etc.), > when the user is *not* using plain text with "dumb" citation signs, etc. > I suppose this has to do with the moderator copying a big message for > the sake of reviewing, and then posting it without regard to the format. It has to do with the character set of the original message not being compatible with the Mailman character set of the list's preferred language. > In messages of mine, citation characters (right arrow) are sometimes > randomly inserted. I use plain text that is line wrapped. Moreover, a > drawback is that messages cannot be removed afterwards. I don't know how > professors, concerned about their professional reputation, can tolerate > this. After all, when partaking in discussion lists, we sometimes say > things which we later regret, on account of changed views, for instance. These are all things that can only be addressed by the administrators of the servers and Mailman installations that you are posting to. See the FAQ at . Part of the issue is probably that you are posting to English language lists and Mailman's character set for English is us-ascii. Thus non-ascii characters get garbled. Also, I don't know if this is your issue, but much email software, not just Mailman, inserts '>' in front of any line that begins with 'From ' to prevent it being interpreted as a *nix mailbox separator. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Jun 4 17:18:24 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 00:18:24 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Install from repository, or build from source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8738fk4san.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Steve Matzura writes: > I am a site admin for a system built on Debian version 7 (Wheezy). The > current available mailman package distribution version is 2.1.15 but I > want to use 2.1.18-1, which means, unless I miss my guess, it's got to > be built from source. If this isn't so, I'd greatly appreciate knowing > where and how to obtain the installable package. I've tried including > the version number, etc., in apt-get, but as of right now,k no go. There is no package at Debian yet; even "sid" is currently on 2.1.16: https://packages.debian.org/sid/mailman Source builds aren't that hard, though. It's also not that hard to put new source into an old source package and update things, usually. (Well, to be honest, I haven't done that in at least 10 years!) Patches can be a little tricky (especially if they've since been integrated into upstream), but the continuity is often worth it. From fmouse at fmp.com Thu Jun 5 02:57:56 2014 From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2014 19:57:56 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Install from repository, or build from source? In-Reply-To: <8738fk4san.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <8738fk4san.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <1401929876.62664.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com> On Thu, 2014-06-05 at 00:18 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Steve Matzura writes: > > > I am a site admin for a system built on Debian version 7 (Wheezy). The > > current available mailman package distribution version is 2.1.15 but I > > want to use 2.1.18-1, which means, unless I miss my guess, it's got to > > be built from source. If this isn't so, I'd greatly appreciate knowing > > where and how to obtain the installable package. I've tried including > > the version number, etc., in apt-get, but as of right now,k no go. > > There is no package at Debian yet; even "sid" is currently on 2.1.16: > https://packages.debian.org/sid/mailman > > Source builds aren't that hard, though. It's also not that hard to > put new source into an old source package and update things, usually. > (Well, to be honest, I haven't done that in at least 10 years!) > Patches can be a little tricky (especially if they've since been > integrated into upstream), but the continuity is often worth it. As a former user of Gentoo Linux I'm rather familiar with how complex an install from source can be, and Mailman is definitely on the easy end of the spectrum. If Debian provides a source directory for Mailman's currently distributed version with their .deb file, or if a config.log from a Debian build file is available elsewhere, this will give you the parameters you need to run the configure script and get everything in the right place with the right permissions. The configure options for my build here, on Ubuntu Server, is: ./configure --prefix=/usr/lib64/mailman --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman --with-mail-gid=mail --with-cgi-gid=www-data --with-mailhost= --with-urlhost= Your setup may be somewhat different. Mailman makes creative use of group permissions, so getting --with-mail-gid right is important and not getting it right is a frequent source of problems. If you get it wrong, Mailman will cause a rather descriptive error to be logged to your mail log telling you about it. Run check_perms, and if necessary check_perms -f after you get Mailman installed to make sure all file permissions and ownerships are appropriate. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com | From sm at noisynotes.com Thu Jun 5 13:27:47 2014 From: sm at noisynotes.com (Steve Matzura) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 07:27:47 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Configurations and Lists to a New Server Message-ID: Thanks to Steve Turnbull's help and some intelligent manual-reading, I have successfully built and installed version 2.1.18-1 on a Debian 7 (Wheezy) system. check_perms reports no problems, `version' reports the right version number, I'm ready for the next step, which is to move an entire configuration and mail spool from an old Debian 5+Mailman 2.1.11 server. I imagine the spool (/var) files can just be tar'd and moved en masse. But what about mailman configuration files--mailing list info, that sort of thing? What should be moved, what should be re-created, etc.? From frank.bonnet at esiee.fr Thu Jun 5 14:12:13 2014 From: frank.bonnet at esiee.fr (BONNET, Frank) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 14:12:13 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting uo a "closed list" Message-ID: Hello I need to setup a "closed" list. That is a list where only members can post AND cannot unsubscribe , this would be an emergency list so it is really important that users do not unsubscribe ! Thank you for any infos / useful links From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de Thu Jun 5 14:38:29 2014 From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 14:38:29 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting uo a "closed list" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140605123828.GL20805@charite.de> * BONNET, Frank : > Hello > > I need to setup a "closed" list. That is a list where only members > can post That's the default > AND cannot unsubscribe, unsubscribe_policy -> yes -- Ralf Hildebrandt Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de Campus Benjamin Franklin http://www.charite.de Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155 From frank.bonnet at esiee.fr Thu Jun 5 14:40:40 2014 From: frank.bonnet at esiee.fr (BONNET, Frank) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 14:40:40 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting uo a "closed list" In-Reply-To: <20140605123828.GL20805@charite.de> References: <20140605123828.GL20805@charite.de> Message-ID: hello Ralf OK thanks *Frank BONNET* Systemes UNIX et Reseaux ESIEE PARIS 01.45.92.66.17 - 06.70.37.37.69 2014-06-05 14:38 GMT+02:00 Ralf Hildebrandt : > * BONNET, Frank : > > Hello > > > > I need to setup a "closed" list. That is a list where only members > > can post > > That's the default > > > AND cannot unsubscribe, > > unsubscribe_policy -> yes > > -- > Ralf Hildebrandt Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin > ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de Campus Benjamin Franklin > http://www.charite.de Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin > Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155 > From sylvain at opensource-expert.com Thu Jun 5 14:44:38 2014 From: sylvain at opensource-expert.com (Sylvain Viart) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 14:44:38 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting uo a "closed list" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53906636.9010500@opensource-expert.com> Le 05/06/2014 14:12, BONNET, Frank a ?crit : > I need to setup a "closed" list. That is a list where only members > can post AND cannot unsubscribe , this would be an emergency list > so it is really important that users do not unsubscribe ! Looks like: Privacy options... [Subscription rules] What steps are required for subscription? (Details for subscribe_policy) Require approval at least? But they may be able to disable delivery? Even if they are still subscribed. Googling : mailman closed list Seems to give some result too. Sylvain. From mark at msapiro.net Thu Jun 5 17:09:52 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 08:09:52 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Configurations and Lists to a New Server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53908840.5030900@msapiro.net> On 06/05/2014 04:27 AM, Steve Matzura wrote: > I'm ready for the next step, which is to > move an entire configuration and mail spool from an old Debian > 5+Mailman 2.1.11 server. > > I imagine the spool (/var) files can just be tar'd and moved en masse. Yes and no. You do not want to move the locks/, logs/ or qfiles/ directories and spam/ is probably non-existent or empty. It's probably not necessary to move anything from data/ but that reqwuires some thought. > But what about mailman configuration files--mailing list info, that > sort of thing? What should be moved, what should be re-created, etc.? See the FAQ at You do want to move the lists/ directory in its entirety except maybe the lists/mailman/ site list if you have already set that up on the new server. That moves list configs, membership, etc. If host/domain names are changing, you will need to run fix_url; see the FAQ at . You also maybe need to run bin/genaliases if your MTA uses mailman generated aliases and you didn't move them from data/ Archives can be an issue. You can move the entire archives/private/ directory and that should be OK, but people sometimes run into permissions issues following that. It is best not to move archives/public/, but if you do, make sure that you end up moving the symlinks and not their targets. archives/public/ contains only symlinks into archives/private and these will be created as appropriate by Mailman as lists are accessed. If host/domain names are changing, The cleanest process is to move only the archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox files and rebuild the HTML archive with bin/arch for each list, but there are downsides to this. If some lists have scrub_nondigest = Yes, the scrubbed attachments will be lost in this process, and if there are unescaped "From " lines in messages that will cause problems too (see bin/cleanarch). -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From sm at noisynotes.com Thu Jun 5 18:43:12 2014 From: sm at noisynotes.com (Steve Matzura) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 12:43:12 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Configurations and Lists to a New Server In-Reply-To: <53908840.5030900@msapiro.net> References: <53908840.5030900@msapiro.net> Message-ID: This reply mechanism is driving me a little weird--the reply function sends the messages to their individual authors, not the list. I hope I'm not breeching etiquette by redirecting my reply to the list. Thanks, Mark, for your cogent and complete reply. The short answer and good thing about all of this is, the new system is supposed to be an as-near-100% replica as is possible of the old system, just everything re-installed and new, just keeping the old data. The new system already has the same identity and nameserver info as the old, the idea being to move data and other applications (which is already underway) and then switch the DNS records after the new environment has been thoroughly tested. I'll check the wiki's you mentioned and report on progress when done. On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 08:09:52 -0700, you wrote: >On 06/05/2014 04:27 AM, Steve Matzura wrote: >> I'm ready for the next step, which is to >> move an entire configuration and mail spool from an old Debian >> 5+Mailman 2.1.11 server. >> >> I imagine the spool (/var) files can just be tar'd and moved en masse. > > >Yes and no. You do not want to move the locks/, logs/ or qfiles/ >directories and spam/ is probably non-existent or empty. It's probably >not necessary to move anything from data/ but that reqwuires some thought. > > >> But what about mailman configuration files--mailing list info, that >> sort of thing? What should be moved, what should be re-created, etc.? > > > See the FAQ at > >You do want to move the lists/ directory in its entirety except maybe >the lists/mailman/ site list if you have already set that up on the new >server. That moves list configs, membership, etc. > >If host/domain names are changing, you will need to run fix_url; see the >FAQ at . > >You also maybe need to run bin/genaliases if your MTA uses mailman >generated aliases and you didn't move them from data/ > >Archives can be an issue. You can move the entire archives/private/ >directory and that should be OK, but people sometimes run into >permissions issues following that. It is best not to move >archives/public/, but if you do, make sure that you end up moving the >symlinks and not their targets. archives/public/ contains only symlinks >into archives/private and these will be created as appropriate by >Mailman as lists are accessed. > >If host/domain names are changing, The cleanest process is to move only >the archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox files and rebuild the >HTML archive with bin/arch for each list, but there are downsides to >this. If some lists have scrub_nondigest = Yes, the scrubbed attachments >will be lost in this process, and if there are unescaped "From " lines >in messages that will cause problems too (see bin/cleanarch). From fmouse at fmp.com Thu Jun 5 19:13:30 2014 From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 12:13:30 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Configurations and Lists to a New Server In-Reply-To: References: <53908840.5030900@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <1401988410.3385.17.camel@pudina.fmp.com> On Thu, 2014-06-05 at 12:43 -0400, Steve Matzura wrote: > This reply mechanism is driving me a little weird--the reply function > sends the messages to their individual authors, not the list. I hope > I'm not breeching etiquette by redirecting my reply to the list. Not at all! Most mail user agents can detect a list post and will offer a choice of whether to reply to the list or the original poster. Yours apparently can't do this. If the "reply to all" options is available the list address will be included and you can just delete the original poster address. > Thanks, Mark, for your cogent and complete reply. > > The short answer and good thing about all of this is, the new system > is supposed to be an as-near-100% replica as is possible of the old > system, just everything re-installed and new, just keeping the old > data. The new system already has the same identity and nameserver info > as the old, the idea being to move data and other applications (which > is already underway) and then switch the DNS records after the new > environment has been thoroughly tested. I'll check the wiki's you > mentioned and report on progress when done. Mark's answer was very complete and I won't try to add any details, but since I've had to move lists between servers in situations pretty much identical to what you describe I thought I'd offer a couple scripts which I've used quite successfully to move entire lists - subscribers, archives, etc. There's no need to set them up on the receiving server ahead of time. This is the script, called tar_list.sh and run as root on the source server, which creates an archive directory and contents in /tmp: #!/bin/sh if [ "$1" = "" ]; then echo 'Usage: tar_list.sh ' exit fi if [ ! -e /var/lib/mailman/lists/$1 ]; then echo "$1: No such list!" exit fi mkdir /tmp/$1 cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/ echo Creating $1_list.tar.gz .... tar -czvf $1_list.tar.gz $1 mv $1_list.tar.gz /tmp/$1 cd /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ echo Creating $1_archive.tar.gz .... tar -czvf $1_archive.tar.gz $1 mv $1_archive.tar.gz /tmp/$1 echo Creating $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz .... tar -czvf $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz $1.mbox mv $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz /tmp/$1 if [ -L /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/$1 ]; then touch /tmp/$1/$1_archive_is_public fi ------------------- The second script, called untar_list.sh lives in ~mailman/bin and is run as user mailman on the receiving server: #!/bin/sh if [ "$2" = "" ]; then echo 'Usage: untar_list.sh ' exit fi cd ~/tmp/ echo "Give root password on remote system ..." scp root@$1:/tmp/$2/* . cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/ echo "" echo "Creating list $2 ..." tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_list.tar.gz cd /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ echo "" echo "Creating archive for $2 ..." tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_archive.tar.gz echo "Creating archive mbox for $1 ..." tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_archive_mbox.tar.gz if [ -e ~/tmp/$2_archive_is_public ]; then ln -s /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/$2 /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/$2 fi echo"" echo "If no errors, delete files in ~/tmp and delete /tmp/$2 directory on remote system" --------------------- This requires a couple of things which may not be advisable for permanent use from a security perspective. * The unprivileged user "mailman" should have a shell login on the old server. * The unprivileged user "mailman" on the new server must have ssh access to a root login on the old server. sshd can be configured to selectively allow this only from a very limited number of accounts on other servers. As I said, I've used these scripts successfully for a couple of different moves of our dozen or so lists between servers when migrating to a new server environment, and they've been subjected to a few tweaks here and there so that they work flawlessly for me at this point. They're self-documenting and transparent to error messages. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com | From sm at noisynotes.com Fri Jun 6 05:45:53 2014 From: sm at noisynotes.com (Steve Matzura) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 23:45:53 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Configurations and Lists to a New Server In-Reply-To: <1401988410.3385.17.camel@pudina.fmp.com> References: <53908840.5030900@msapiro.net> <1401988410.3385.17.camel@pudina.fmp.com> Message-ID: <18e2p9ptl2nskcl2cmp7cchs8v6a1mc4q1@4ax.com> On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 12:13:30 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 2014-06-05 at 12:43 -0400, Steve Matzura wrote: >> This reply mechanism is driving me a little weird--the reply function >> sends the messages to their individual authors, not the list. I hope >> I'm not breeching etiquette by redirecting my reply to the list. > >Not at all! Most mail user agents can detect a list post and will offer >a choice of whether to reply to the list or the original poster. Yours >apparently can't do this. If the "reply to all" options is available >the list address will be included and you can just delete the original >poster address. OH no, it can do that all right, but it's a little odd in how it does it. Instead of putting both addresses in the "To" field, it puts the author in "To" and the mailing list in "CC". I just use the regular reply and change the address, pointing that reply back here. It's a kluge, but it's what I got :-). From mark at msapiro.net Fri Jun 6 06:33:55 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 21:33:55 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Configurations and Lists to a New Server In-Reply-To: <18e2p9ptl2nskcl2cmp7cchs8v6a1mc4q1@4ax.com> References: <53908840.5030900@msapiro.net> <1401988410.3385.17.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <18e2p9ptl2nskcl2cmp7cchs8v6a1mc4q1@4ax.com> Message-ID: <539144B3.8010901@msapiro.net> On 06/05/2014 08:45 PM, Steve Matzura wrote: > > OH no, it can do that all right, but it's a little odd in how it does > it. Instead of putting both addresses in the "To" field, it puts the > author in "To" and the mailing list in "CC". I just use the regular > reply and change the address, pointing that reply back here. It's a > kluge, but it's what I got :-). Whether "reply all" puts the list in To: or Cc: is dependent on your MUA. Thunderbird which I'm using here puts both the list (original To:) and the poster (original From:) in To: and any additional To: recipients in To: and any Cc: recipients in Cc:. Other MUAs may differ. Thunderbird also offers "Reply List" which is what I'm using here. Mutt, which I also use, has a "group reply" option which puts the original To: in Cc: and also has a "list reply" option to reply to just the list. For an idea of some of the reasons why this list is "reply to poster" and not "reply to list" see . It's somewhat dated, but still relevant. Note also that "reply all" can be useful and does not require you to remove the OP's address. If you leave the OP's address as a recipient of your Reply, the OP controls whether or not she receives duplicates, and you may be doing the OP a favor by keeping her in the loop if she's a digest subscriber. Common practice on this list is "reply all" or "reply list" except in cases where the reply must contain private information which shouldn't be on the list. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From countryroad62 at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 21:18:04 2014 From: countryroad62 at gmail.com (J Davis) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 13:18:04 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix MTA - getting smtpd...mailman/data/aliases.db: Permission denied Message-ID: Fresh source install of mailman 2.1.18 on centos with current centos postifx 2.6.6. This combo worked on my Solaris box and I moved mailman to centos for an upgrade. I've copied my basic postfix main.cf to the linux box - no changes needed. Mail tests in and out of the box work OK. genaliases makes the db OK. Check_perms runs OK. If I delete the aliases.db file then postfix complains it can't find the file - as expected. I've been starring at this all day and I'm blank. main.cf snippit: alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/export/home/mailman/data/aliases Mailman's aliases files: -rw-rw----. 1 mailman mailman 10317 Jun 5 12:43 mailman/data/aliases -rw-r-----. 1 mailman mailman 24576 Jun 5 12:43 mailman/data/aliases.db Mailman comes up and I can access the web OK and see all my migrated lists, members, archives, etc. Anyone have an idea what to look at next? I've followed the steps in the install guide but I'm thinking that there is something with the centos postfix that is mucking me up. Typical maillog error: Jun 5 13:10:08 mailman postfix/local[10075]: fatal: open database /export/home/mailman/data/aliases.db: Permission denied Mailman made with: ./configure --prefix=/export/home/mailman --with-python=/opt/local/bin/python \ --with-cgi-gid=daemon \ --with-mailhost=mailman.mydom --with-urlhost=mailman.mydom \ --with-var-prefix=/export/home/mailman Jim Davis From mark at msapiro.net Fri Jun 6 08:17:09 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 23:17:09 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix MTA - getting smtpd...mailman/data/aliases.db: Permission denied In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53915CE5.6020605@msapiro.net> On 06/05/2014 12:18 PM, J Davis wrote: > > Mailman's aliases files: > -rw-rw----. 1 mailman mailman 10317 Jun 5 12:43 mailman/data/aliases > -rw-r-----. 1 mailman mailman 24576 Jun 5 12:43 mailman/data/aliases.db > > Mailman comes up and I can access the web OK and see all my migrated lists, > members, archives, etc. > > Anyone have an idea what to look at next? I've followed the steps in the > install guide but I'm thinking that there is something with the centos > postfix that is mucking me up. > > Typical maillog error: > > Jun 5 13:10:08 mailman postfix/local[10075]: fatal: open database > /export/home/mailman/data/aliases.db: Permission denied My guess is this is a SELinux or other security manager issue. If SELinux is enabled, try disabling it. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From ournet.biz at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 19:11:54 2014 From: ournet.biz at gmail.com (EyeLand) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2014 20:11:54 +0300 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers Message-ID: Hello, on mailing list I have many emails on "Membership Management... - [Membership List]", how I can export all on txt file? Thank you. From mark at msapiro.net Sun Jun 8 22:25:14 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2014 13:25:14 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5394C6AA.6080508@msapiro.net> On 06/08/2014 10:11 AM, EyeLand wrote: > Hello, on mailing list I have many emails on "Membership Management... > - [Membership List]", how I can export all on txt file? Thank you. See the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From rsk at gsp.org Sun Jun 8 22:40:35 2014 From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2014 16:40:35 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20140608204035.GA29177@gsp.org> On Sun, Jun 08, 2014 at 08:11:54PM +0300, EyeLand wrote: > Hello, on mailing list I have many emails on "Membership Management... > - [Membership List]", how I can export all on txt file? Thank you. >From the shell: ~mailman/bin/list_members name-of-mailing-list will put the list on stdout, so you could redirect it to a file if you wish: ~mailman/bin/list_members name-of-mailing-list > roster If you have a number of mailing lists and want to dump them all, you could use something along the lines of: #!/bin/csh set filelist = `~mailman/bin/list_lists -b` foreach i ($filelist) ~mailman/bin/list_members $i > $i.roster end which will create a series of files whose names consist of the name of each mailing list suffixed with ".roster". ---rsk From countryroad62 at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 17:29:08 2014 From: countryroad62 at gmail.com (J Davis) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 09:29:08 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix MTA - getting smtpd...mailman/data/aliases.db: Permission denied (doh!) Message-ID: In one word - selinux. Disable it now. Get to work. It is about risk vs. reward. Don old UNIX cap and IMHO - it may someday it may not be so much of a philosophy and usable by the masses - or it may end up like emacs and remain one. Jim Davis From bjo at nord-west.org Sun Jun 8 19:51:32 2014 From: bjo at nord-west.org (Bjoern Franke) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2014 19:51:32 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1402249892.18225.2.camel@ostrea> Am Sonntag, den 08.06.2014, 20:11 +0300 schrieb EyeLand: > Hello, on mailing list I have many emails on "Membership Management... > - [Membership List]", how I can export all on txt file? Thank you. /usr/sbin/list_members -o regards Bjoern -- xmpp bjo at schafweide.org bjo.nord-west.org | nord-west.org From ournet.biz at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 20:32:06 2014 From: ournet.biz at gmail.com (EyeLand) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 21:32:06 +0300 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 124, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2014-06-09 13:00 GMT+03:00 : > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2014 16:40:35 -0400 > From: Rich Kulawiec > To: mailman-users at python.org > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers > Message-ID: <20140608204035.GA29177 at gsp.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Sun, Jun 08, 2014 at 08:11:54PM +0300, EyeLand wrote: >> Hello, on mailing list I have many emails on "Membership Management... >> - [Membership List]", how I can export all on txt file? Thank you. > > >From the shell: > > ~mailman/bin/list_members name-of-mailing-list > > will put the list on stdout, so you could redirect it to a file > if you wish: > > ~mailman/bin/list_members name-of-mailing-list > roster > > If you have a number of mailing lists and want to dump them all, you > could use something along the lines of: > > #!/bin/csh > > set filelist = `~mailman/bin/list_lists -b` > > foreach i ($filelist) > ~mailman/bin/list_members $i > $i.roster > end > > which will create a series of files whose names consist of the > name of each mailing list suffixed with ".roster". > > ---rsk root at vps1:~# ~mailman/bin/list_members mailman -bash: ~mailman/bin/list_members: No such file or directory OR root at vps1:~# ~mailman/bin/list_members mailman at host -bash: ~mailman/bin/list_members: No such file or directory where I can read right name of my mailing list? From ournet.biz at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 21:49:00 2014 From: ournet.biz at gmail.com (EyeLand) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 22:49:00 +0300 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 124, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2014-06-09 21:42 GMT+03:00 Gerry Grieve : > This complaint is NOT about the list name but about the > program name ?~mailman/bin/list_members mailman?, ie the > shell did not find list_memebers with this path. > > Use the ?locate? command to find your your mailmain/bin directory. > > ie >>gt; locate list_members > > > ttfn > > -- > Gerry R. Grieve ph: 604-822-4320 > Systems Manager, fax: 604-822-5324 > Physics& Astronomy, UBC > 6224 Agricultural Rd. > Vancouver, BC, Canada > V6T 1Z1 root at vps1:~# locate list_members /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_members /usr/sbin/list_members /usr/share/bash-completion/completions/list_members /usr/share/man/man8/list_members.8.gz From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 9 21:51:03 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2014 12:51:03 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53961027.1020805@msapiro.net> On 06/09/2014 11:32 AM, EyeLand wrote: > > root at vps1:~# ~mailman/bin/list_members mailman > -bash: ~mailman/bin/list_members: No such file or directory > > OR > > root at vps1:~# ~mailman/bin/list_members mailman at host > -bash: ~mailman/bin/list_members: No such file or directory > > where I can read right name of my mailing list? If this is cPanel, You need to use the cPanel list name of the form mailman_host. I.e., it's usually the list's posting address with the '@' replaced by '_'. In any case, it's the same name as used in URLs like http://HOST/mailman/listinfo/LIST_HOST. (and please don't post with digest subjects.) -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 9 21:58:27 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2014 12:58:27 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539611E3.1060001@msapiro.net> On 06/09/2014 12:49 PM, EyeLand wrote: > > root at vps1:~# locate list_members > /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_members > /usr/sbin/list_members Since whatever packaged Mailman this is has put (copies of? links to?) mailman's bin commands in /usr/sbin, as root you can probably just do list_members mailman or you can always do /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_members mailman (apparently ~mailman doesn't resolve to /usr/lib/mailman) -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From ournet.biz at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 22:16:06 2014 From: ournet.biz at gmail.com (EyeLand) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 23:16:06 +0300 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers In-Reply-To: <53961027.1020805@msapiro.net> References: <53961027.1020805@msapiro.net> Message-ID: 2014-06-09 22:51 GMT+03:00 Mark Sapiro : > If this is cPanel, You need to use the cPanel list name of the form > mailman_host. I.e., it's usually the list's posting address with the '@' > replaced by '_'. In any case, it's the same name as used in URLs like > http://HOST/mailman/listinfo/LIST_HOST. > > (and please don't post with digest subjects.) url http://vps1.ournet.biz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailman email mailman at vps1.ournet.biz control panel ISPConfig https://vps1.ournet.biz:8080/ now I want only to export all emails (10 000) to txt file from that mailman list >Since whatever packaged Mailman this is has put (copies of? links to?) >mailman's bin commands in /usr/sbin, as root you can probably just do > >list_members mailman > >or you can always do > >/usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_ >members mailman > >(apparently ~mailman doesn't resolve to /usr/lib/mailman) yes I open putty as root From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 9 23:06:34 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2014 14:06:34 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers In-Reply-To: References: <53961027.1020805@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <539621DA.70101@msapiro.net> On 06/09/2014 01:16 PM, EyeLand wrote: > > url http://vps1.ournet.biz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailman > email mailman at vps1.ournet.biz > control panel ISPConfig https://vps1.ournet.biz:8080/ > > now I want only to export all emails (10 000) to txt file from that mailman list First, do list_members --help to see what all the options are, or based on your earlier reported 'locate' results you could do man list_members Then you may want something like list_members mailman > /path/to/output/file if you only want email addresses or maybe list_members mailman -f > /path/to/output/file if you want the member's names if available. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From bsfinkel at att.net Mon Jun 9 23:40:00 2014 From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2014 16:40:00 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers In-Reply-To: <539621DA.70101@msapiro.net> References: <53961027.1020805@msapiro.net> <539621DA.70101@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <539629B0.9030103@att.net> On 06/09/2014 01:16 PM, EyeLand wrote: >> > >> >urlhttp://vps1.ournet.biz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailman >> >emailmailman at vps1.ournet.biz >> >control panel ISPConfighttps://vps1.ournet.biz:8080/ >> > >> >now I want only to export all emails (10 000) to txt file from that mailman list If I interpret the poster's request, EyeLand wants all of the messages that have been posted to the list in a .txt file. If this is the case, then the list archives in $listname.mbox/$listname.mbox has all of the posted mail messages in mbox format. That is essentially a .txt file with a "From email address date" line beginning in column 1 at the start of each message in the file. --Barry Finkel From pshute at nuw.org.au Tue Jun 10 01:07:21 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:07:21 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now? Message-ID: It's now about 2 months since Yahoo introduced their DMARC reject policy. I'm taking this as a sign that it's unlikely that they'll ever reverse the decision Has anyone heard anything that might indicate otherwise? Or that any mailbox providers other than Yahoo and AOL have started doing it, or have indicated that they ever/never will? Peter Shute From rsk at gsp.org Tue Jun 10 01:11:56 2014 From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 19:11:56 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data Message-ID: <20140609231156.GB2701@gsp.org> If you (Mailman site operators) have a spare moment, please try running this: ------------cut here-------------- #!/bin/sh cd /var/local/mailman/logs egrep "pending [a-z]+ <[a-z]+@[a-z]+\.com>" subscribe \ | egrep -v "@gmail.com" \ | egrep -v "@hotmail.com" \ | egrep -v "@msn.com" \ | egrep -v "@aol.com" \ | egrep -v "@yahoo.com" \ | sed -e "s/(.*pending//" ------------cut here-------------- This is a first-cut, mildly sloppy script that will try to match some patterns of interest that I've noticed in my "subscribe" log and that might be in yours. The egrep clauses are in there to throw away data not of interest; the sed snips off the mailing list name and some other irrelevancies. Here is what the last 10 lines of its output look like on my system: Jun 06 00:14:32 2014 ehkfioxlkrr 62.210.226.131 Jun 06 13:23:16 2014 norchmecn 86.51.26.20 Jun 07 02:06:20 2014 eljult 86.51.26.11 Jun 07 13:21:20 2014 dvlevbpj 210.14.138.102 Jun 07 15:41:10 2014 sdbdelkv 86.51.26.18 Jun 07 16:17:10 2014 yqrebrgipo 86.51.26.20 Jun 08 06:37:12 2014 cihjwn 202.143.148.58 Jun 08 06:55:47 2014 ehxvwgrboo 86.51.26.21 Jun 08 23:47:58 2014 qqpluym 190.14.219.166 Jun 09 16:44:15 2014 mloepuj 172.245.142.194 This is forged gibberish, of course. The user real name is always a lowercase alpha string. The email address is also, both LHS and RHS, and the TLD is always .com. (Hence the regexp in the first egrep.) I'm curious. First, is anybody else seeing these? Second, does anyone have a theory as to their purpose? And third, is there any value in combining data to see if patterns emerge? (I have some privacy concerns about that last one, since real email addresses might leak through, so I suspect if we decided to do that, it would be best to remove everything but the timestamp and IP address. I doubt the gibberish has any real explanatory value anyway.) ---rsk From mark at msapiro.net Tue Jun 10 02:01:19 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2014 17:01:19 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data In-Reply-To: <20140609231156.GB2701@gsp.org> References: <20140609231156.GB2701@gsp.org> Message-ID: <53964ACF.6040804@msapiro.net> On 06/09/2014 04:11 PM, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > > This is a first-cut, mildly sloppy script that will try to match some > patterns of interest that I've noticed in my "subscribe" log and that > might be in yours. ... > > Here is what the last 10 lines of its output look like on my system: > > Jun 06 00:14:32 2014 ehkfioxlkrr 62.210.226.131 > Jun 06 13:23:16 2014 norchmecn 86.51.26.20 > Jun 07 02:06:20 2014 eljult 86.51.26.11 > Jun 07 13:21:20 2014 dvlevbpj 210.14.138.102 > Jun 07 15:41:10 2014 sdbdelkv 86.51.26.18 > Jun 07 16:17:10 2014 yqrebrgipo 86.51.26.20 > Jun 08 06:37:12 2014 cihjwn 202.143.148.58 > Jun 08 06:55:47 2014 ehxvwgrboo 86.51.26.21 > Jun 08 23:47:58 2014 qqpluym 190.14.219.166 > Jun 09 16:44:15 2014 mloepuj 172.245.142.194 > > This is forged gibberish, of course. ... > I'm curious. First, is anybody else seeing these? Some people are. > Second, does2.1.16 or later > anyone have a theory as to their purpose? They are spammers attempting to subscribe to your list(s) via POSTs to the web subscribe CGI. Presumably if they successfully subscribe, they will then spam the list. If you have Mailman 2.1.16 or later, you can mitigate this by setting SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET = "Some site specific string" in mm_cfg.py. See . This is from the NEWS file: There is a new mm_cfg.py setting SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET which will put a dynamically generated, hidden hash in the listinfo subscribe form and check it upon submission. Setting this will prevent automated processes (bots) from successfully POSTing web subscribes without first retrieving and parsing the form from the listinfo page. The form must also be submitted no later than FORM_LIFETIME nor no earlier than SUBSCRIBE_FORM_MIN_TIME after retrieval. Note that enabling this will break any static subscribe forms on your site. See the description in Defaults.py for more info. (LP: #1082746) -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From perry at piermont.com Tue Jun 10 03:34:39 2014 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 21:34:39 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data In-Reply-To: <53964ACF.6040804@msapiro.net> References: <20140609231156.GB2701@gsp.org> <53964ACF.6040804@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <20140609213439.142711a4@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 17:01:19 -0700 Mark Sapiro wrote: > They are spammers attempting to subscribe to your list(s) via POSTs > to the web subscribe CGI. Presumably if they successfully > subscribe, they will then spam the list. > > If you have Mailman 2.1.16 or later, you can mitigate this by > setting > > SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET = "Some site specific string" Another option might be using fail2ban. Almost all of my attackers come from the same few addresses in Vietnam. A few black hole routes and they were history. I haven't bothered with fail2ban yet, but it probably is a reasonable option. (Mine all have ALLCAPS@ addresses.) Perry -- Perry E. Metzger perry at piermont.com From perry at piermont.com Tue Jun 10 03:48:38 2014 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 21:48:38 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data In-Reply-To: <53964ACF.6040804@msapiro.net> References: <20140609231156.GB2701@gsp.org> <53964ACF.6040804@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <20140609214838.748876b8@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 17:01:19 -0700 Mark Sapiro wrote: > They are spammers attempting to subscribe to your list(s) via POSTs > to the web subscribe CGI. Presumably if they successfully > subscribe, they will then spam the list. BTW, I don't quite understand this. Why would splatting random addresses at you help them? Why not just pick real addresses they control? Successfully subscribing is easy, and generating seemingly random addresses won't get them subscribed since the addresses will never get a confirmation round trip. Perry -- Perry E. Metzger perry at piermont.com From pshute at nuw.org.au Tue Jun 10 04:12:20 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:12:20 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data In-Reply-To: <20140609214838.748876b8@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> References: <20140609231156.GB2701@gsp.org> <53964ACF.6040804@msapiro.net> <20140609214838.748876b8@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> Message-ID: Who said spamming has to be logical? I once read that spammers often use outdated, stolen, spamming software that spams in ways that were obsolete years ago. Peter Shute > -----Original Message----- > From: Mailman-Users > [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+pshute=nuw.org.au at python.org] > On Behalf Of Perry E. Metzger > Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2014 11:49 AM > To: Mark Sapiro > Cc: mailman-users at python.org > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription > attempts: request for comments and possibly data > > On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 17:01:19 -0700 Mark Sapiro > wrote: > > They are spammers attempting to subscribe to your list(s) > via POSTs to > > the web subscribe CGI. Presumably if they successfully > subscribe, they > > will then spam the list. > > BTW, I don't quite understand this. Why would splatting > random addresses at you help them? Why not just pick real > addresses they control? Successfully subscribing is easy, and > generating seemingly random addresses won't get them > subscribed since the addresses will never get a confirmation > round trip. > > Perry > -- > Perry E. Metzger perry at piermont.com > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: > http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%4 0nuw.org.au > From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Jun 10 04:48:49 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 11:48:49 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data In-Reply-To: <20140609214838.748876b8@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> References: <20140609231156.GB2701@gsp.org> <53964ACF.6040804@msapiro.net> <20140609214838.748876b8@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> Message-ID: <87lht5pjhq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Perry E. Metzger writes: > BTW, I don't quite understand this. Why would splatting random > addresses at you help them? Why not just pick real addresses they > control? Successfully subscribing is easy, and generating seemingly > random addresses won't get them subscribed since the addresses will > never get a confirmation round trip. Spammers are generally greedy but not bright? BTW, to answer Rick's question, yes, I'm seeing them too, in the all- lowercase form, on some but not all lists. I'M not sure why they pick the lists they do. From heller at deepsoft.com Tue Jun 10 04:48:51 2014 From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 22:48:51 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data In-Reply-To: <20140609214838.748876b8@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> References: <20140609231156.GB2701@gsp.org> <53964ACF.6040804@msapiro.net> <20140609214838.748876b8@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> Message-ID: <201406100248.s5A2mpgX026508@sharky2.deepsoft.com> At Mon, 9 Jun 2014 21:48:38 -0400 "Perry E. Metzger" wrote: > > On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 17:01:19 -0700 Mark Sapiro > wrote: > > They are spammers attempting to subscribe to your list(s) via POSTs > > to the web subscribe CGI. Presumably if they successfully > > subscribe, they will then spam the list. > > BTW, I don't quite understand this. Why would splatting random > addresses at you help them? Why not just pick real addresses they > control? Successfully subscribing is easy, and generating seemingly > random addresses won't get them subscribed since the addresses will > never get a confirmation round trip. It depends. Some 'spammers' use scripts that seek out
tags and then issue POST requests to the action= attribute. In some cases this results in 'posting' content of some sort to web sites (eg comment / forum spam). Or it generates E-Mails to someone who might respond to the content. In other cases it is a form of denial of service attack, overwhelming the server. In some cases, it is totally 'mindless', eg generated data using field names as a guide as to what to generate: such as random E-Mail addresses for an field with a name like 'email', and so on. > > Perry -- Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / heller at deepsoft.com Deepwoods Software -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments From pshute at nuw.org.au Tue Jun 10 05:08:58 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:08:58 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now? In-Reply-To: <87mwdlpjp3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87mwdlpjp3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: Based on that, it's here forever, but will only spread to other mailbox providers if they experience a surge in spoofing. I'm interested to know what's in store because our current tactic is to reject new Yahoo and AOL subscribers, encourage existing ones to get new addresses, and to forward their messages by hand. This is obviously not going to work if other providers gradually start doing it too. If our cpanel host ever upgrades then we'll be able to decide on a more permanent solution. Peter Shute > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen J. Turnbull [mailto:stephen at xemacs.org] > Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2014 12:44 PM > To: Peter Shute > Cc: 'mailman-users at python.org' > Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now? > > Peter Shute writes: > > > It's now about 2 months since Yahoo introduced their DMARC > reject > policy. I'm taking this as a sign that it's > unlikely that they'll > ever reverse the decision > > On the DMARC list at IETF, a senior Yahoo! sysadmin said that > because the attack based on stolen address book data > continues, Yahoo! > management sees no option but to continue. Even reducing to > "p=quarantine" is out of the question. The fact that Yahoo! > Groups has started to work around DMARC authentication (by > moving the author's address into the display name, a tactic > explicitly deprecated by the DMARC consortium's own FAQ) > suggests they're in it for the long haul. > > > Or that any mailbox providers other than Yahoo and AOL > have started > doing it, or have indicated that they ever/never will? > > Comcast made a point of saying in response to a question at a > press conference that they have no intention of doing so. > It's hardly trustworthy (the DMARC designers can't be happy > about the bad press), but both one of the editors of the > current draft and a senior IETF engineer whose name pops up > all over the email-related RFCs have posted comments that > Yahoo! has made no friends for itself. > > However, according to a graph I saw that described the attack > on AOL, spoofing of AOL addresses ballooned to about 5X the > volume preceding the attack, and presumably all of the new > spoof messages were targeted to acquaintences since the > attackers are known to have obtained millions of AOL users' > contact lists. Not only is that attack huge, one would > suppose it's more effective than broadcast spam or phishing. > > I would guess that any large provider that has a security > breach like those at Yahoo! and AOL would be tempted to > publish a "p=reject" > policy, including Comcast. IANAL, but I have to wonder if > they're not at substantial legal risk for contributory > negligence (since apparently the addresses were stolen from > the providers, although they're being coy about that) if they > don't do something about this relatively effective form of abuse. > From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Jun 10 04:44:24 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 11:44:24 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87mwdlpjp3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Peter Shute writes: > It's now about 2 months since Yahoo introduced their DMARC reject > policy. I'm taking this as a sign that it's unlikely that they'll > ever reverse the decision On the DMARC list at IETF, a senior Yahoo! sysadmin said that because the attack based on stolen address book data continues, Yahoo! management sees no option but to continue. Even reducing to "p=quarantine" is out of the question. The fact that Yahoo! Groups has started to work around DMARC authentication (by moving the author's address into the display name, a tactic explicitly deprecated by the DMARC consortium's own FAQ) suggests they're in it for the long haul. > Or that any mailbox providers other than Yahoo and AOL have started > doing it, or have indicated that they ever/never will? Comcast made a point of saying in response to a question at a press conference that they have no intention of doing so. It's hardly trustworthy (the DMARC designers can't be happy about the bad press), but both one of the editors of the current draft and a senior IETF engineer whose name pops up all over the email-related RFCs have posted comments that Yahoo! has made no friends for itself. However, according to a graph I saw that described the attack on AOL, spoofing of AOL addresses ballooned to about 5X the volume preceding the attack, and presumably all of the new spoof messages were targeted to acquaintences since the attackers are known to have obtained millions of AOL users' contact lists. Not only is that attack huge, one would suppose it's more effective than broadcast spam or phishing. I would guess that any large provider that has a security breach like those at Yahoo! and AOL would be tempted to publish a "p=reject" policy, including Comcast. IANAL, but I have to wonder if they're not at substantial legal risk for contributory negligence (since apparently the addresses were stolen from the providers, although they're being coy about that) if they don't do something about this relatively effective form of abuse. From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Jun 10 07:32:35 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 14:32:35 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now? In-Reply-To: References: <87mwdlpjp3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <87r42xgwi4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Peter Shute writes: > I'm interested to know what's in store because our current tactic > is to reject new Yahoo and AOL subscribers, encourage existing ones > to get new addresses, and to forward their messages by hand. This > is obviously not going to work if other providers gradually start > doing it too. Well, Gmail clearly has decided that they know better than Yahoo! which messages need to be rejected. Although the only way to make a computer totally secure is to pull out the plug, I suspect that they are more secure against contact list theft than Yahoo! or AOL. I think their tech staff has more status than the tech staff at Yahoo! and AOL, so they're less likely to roll out new features that can be hacked because of management pressure. It may be a long time before Gmail gets hacked that way. Ditto Microsoft. Google also has their "Don't Be Evil" baggage to contend with. They may be less likely to make decisions known to involve substantial collateral damage. > If our cpanel host ever upgrades then we'll be able to decide on a > more permanent solution. Somebody said cPanel has already upgraded to Mailman 2.1.18-1, so at least your host does have an upgrade path. From finches at portadmiral.org Tue Jun 10 11:12:34 2014 From: finches at portadmiral.org (Larry Finch) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 05:12:34 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now? In-Reply-To: <87mwdlpjp3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87mwdlpjp3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: > On Jun 9, 2014, at 10:44 PM, "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote: > > > spoofing of AOL addresses ballooned to about 5X the volume preceding > the attack, and presumably all of the new spoof messages were targeted > to acquaintences since the attackers are known to have obtained > millions of AOL users' contact lists. Not only is that attack huge, > one would suppose it's more effective than broadcast spam or phishing. > DMARC helped briefly, but spammers and phishers have already found ways to defeat it. I have seen a surge in AOL-based phishing this week. They simply use the AOL screen name in the comment in the FROM field with a non-AOL address. As most mail clients don't display the actual email address the recipient doesn't notice, and, as the email goes to the spoofed screen name's contact list, it looks legitimate. Best regards Larry -- Larry Finch Sent by iPhone From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Jun 10 14:21:06 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 21:21:06 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now? In-Reply-To: References: <87mwdlpjp3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <8761k9q7kd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Larry Finch writes: > DMARC helped briefly, but spammers and phishers have already found > ways to defeat it. I have seen a surge in AOL-based phishing this > week. They simply use the AOL screen name in the comment in the > FROM field with a non-AOL address. As most mail clients don't > display the actual email address the recipient doesn't notice, and, > as the email goes to the spoofed screen name's contact list, it > looks legitimate. Several people predicted that on this list ... well over a year ago when DMARC was first being discussed and From-corruption mitigations were being proposed. I doubt that's going to make an impression on AOL or Yahoo! (at least Yahoo! has a completely different standard for the decision). This-time-I'd-rather-be-President-than-be-right-ly y'rs, From perry at piermont.com Tue Jun 10 15:00:40 2014 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:00:40 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data In-Reply-To: <87lht5pjhq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <20140609231156.GB2701@gsp.org> <53964ACF.6040804@msapiro.net> <20140609214838.748876b8@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <87lht5pjhq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <20140610090040.09efda67@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 11:48:49 +0900 "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote: > Perry E. Metzger writes: > > > BTW, I don't quite understand this. Why would splatting random > > addresses at you help them? Why not just pick real addresses they > > control? Successfully subscribing is easy, and generating > > seemingly random addresses won't get them subscribed since the > > addresses will never get a confirmation round trip. > > Spammers are generally greedy but not bright? Spammers do this work full time to feed themselves. Just as you get up in the morning and go to your office, they get up every morning and figure out their next step to keep the money coming in -- their families depend on it. They rarely do anything that doesn't work -- if they do, they end up without any money coming in with which to support themselves. There have been significant academic studies of the market, and they indicate that your portrayal isn't accurate. I would presume that if you don't understand what they're doing, it isn't because it is completely irrational, but rather because you don't get exactly what they're attempting. Perry -- Perry E. Metzger perry at piermont.com From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Jun 10 16:16:34 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 23:16:34 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data In-Reply-To: <20140610090040.09efda67@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> References: <20140609231156.GB2701@gsp.org> <53964ACF.6040804@msapiro.net> <20140609214838.748876b8@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> <87lht5pjhq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20140610090040.09efda67@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com> Message-ID: <871tuwrgsd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Perry E. Metzger writes: > have been significant academic studies of the market, and they > indicate that your portrayal isn't accurate. I was incautious; "smart" spammers go back at least to Canter and Siegel. What I should have written was "spammers are greedy, but many aren't too smart." I don't do such studies myself, but my colleagues do a lot of those studies for various markets. What those studies invariably show is that (1) the most profitable businesses generally are reasonably smart -- getting to the top may have been a matter of luck but staying there takes work and some smarts, and (2) there is usually a large fringe of "noise traders", agents who are doing pretty random things. Some of the latter can get big enough to be noticed before their bubbles burst. > I would presume that if you don't understand what they're doing, it > isn't because it is completely irrational, but rather because you > don't get exactly what they're attempting. That's possible. Nevertheless I suspect that there are quite a few out there who are doing things that make sense only to themselves and will disappear in unprofitability (although some may be deliberately random, as in "fuzzer"-style software testing). Either way, though, some spammer behavior is inexplicable and it's probably not worth trying too hard to figure it out. Steve From odhiambo at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 12:20:59 2014 From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:20:59 +0300 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Formatting the Welcome Message Message-ID: Can the welcome message be formatted in html? I have put html tags to make certain parts of the welcome message bold but the tags are displaying in raw format instead of bolding:) -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 "I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler." From mark at msapiro.net Wed Jun 11 17:39:43 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 08:39:43 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Formatting the Welcome Message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5398783F.6050803@msapiro.net> On 06/11/2014 03:20 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote: > Can the welcome message be formatted in html? > > I have put html tags to make certain parts of the welcome message bold > but the tags are displaying in raw format instead of bolding:) The welcome message is sent as a text/plain message. Thus, HTML tags don't work. You can put things like *this is bold* in the message and some MUAs will understand that the text between the asterisks is to be rendered in a bold font. Similarly /italic/ and _underlined_. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From odhiambo at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 17:45:25 2014 From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 18:45:25 +0300 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Formatting the Welcome Message In-Reply-To: <5398783F.6050803@msapiro.net> References: <5398783F.6050803@msapiro.net> Message-ID: On 11 June 2014 18:39, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/11/2014 03:20 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote: > > Can the welcome message be formatted in html? > > > > I have put html tags to make certain parts of the welcome message bold > > but the tags are displaying in raw format instead of bolding:) > > > The welcome message is sent as a text/plain message. Thus, HTML tags > don't work. > > You can put things like *this is bold* in the message and some MUAs will > understand that the text between the asterisks is to be rendered in a > bold font. Similarly /italic/ and _underlined_. > > I realized this and decided to just use _this is important_ instead:) Thank you. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 "I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler." From larry at qhpress.org Wed Jun 11 18:01:27 2014 From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 12:01:27 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Formatting the Welcome Message In-Reply-To: <5398783F.6050803@msapiro.net> References: <5398783F.6050803@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53987D57.90206@qhpress.org> On 6/11/2014 11:39 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > You can put things like *this is bold* in the message and some MUAs will > understand that the text between the asterisks is to be rendered in a > bold font. Similarly /italic/ and _underlined_. However, Thunderbird, which I use, tries to do this *but fails* when the begin/end markers occur on separate lines. Thus _this is important_ will be underlined in Thunderbird, _but this is also important_ will not (at least if the line break falls within the markers, as it did when I tested this by sending it to myself). I suppose one could work around this _by putting extra markers_ _at the end of the first line and the beginning of the second_. -- Larry Kuenning larry at qhpress.org From g17jimmy at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 23:10:35 2014 From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 17:10:35 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists Message-ID: I am upgrading a list server from an old Fedora system to a RHEL 6.5 server and migration of mailman isn't going well. Mailman (on both systems) is installed with the RH provided RPM (mailman-2.1.12-18.el6.x86_64) The first issue on the new server is that the mailman init script does not function, fails with this message "Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman". I can manually run `bin/mailmanctl start` and the service seems to start. Once the service is started I can get to the admin page and list overview page but the page indicates that there are no publicly advertised lists, even though all of the lists indicate "advertised = 1" in the dumpdb. Here are some steps I've taken: moved data/archive and mailman configs and Apache configs from old server to new updated URL's ./withlist -l -r fix_url list_name --urlhost=host2.domain.com Checked all settings in Default.py and mm_cfg.py updated /etc/aliases /usr/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms /usr/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms -f /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_lists (displays the lists I migrated from the old server) /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb /var/lib/mailman/lists/list_name/config.pck >~/list_name /usr/lib/mailman/bin/config_list -o list_name-conf (compared to old server and everything looks in order) If I create a newlist from the command line it is able to create the list and sends me an email, but I am unable to create lists from the web interface. Any ideas? From reinier.carmona at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 22:43:58 2014 From: reinier.carmona at gmail.com (Reinier Carmona Lizana) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 16:43:58 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to List all the moderators of a mailing list? Message-ID: I know that with list_admins i can see al the owners or admin of a mailing list, but now i am trying to get all the moderators from each list. Someone could give me a suggest? I will appreciate. -- Ing. Reinier Carmona Lizana Usuario Linux registrado: #483 500 Usuario Ubuntu registrado #27 296 From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz Thu Jun 12 02:52:05 2014 From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 00:52:05 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1402534324063.9262@vuw.ac.nz> Hi, Have a look at the paths. I think RH installs things non-mailman style so maybe some files are in the wrong place for the rpm. I upgraded from mailman on RHEL3 to RHEL 6 and had these sort of issues. regards Steven Jones Technical Specialist - Linux RHCE Victoria University ITS, Level 8 Rankin Brown Building, Wellington, NZ 6012 0064 4 463 6272 ________________________________________ From: Mailman-Users on behalf of Jimmy Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2014 9:10 a.m. To: Mailman-Users at python.org Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists I am upgrading a list server from an old Fedora system to a RHEL 6.5 server and migration of mailman isn't going well. Mailman (on both systems) is installed with the RH provided RPM (mailman-2.1.12-18.el6.x86_64) The first issue on the new server is that the mailman init script does not function, fails with this message "Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman". I can manually run `bin/mailmanctl start` and the service seems to start. Once the service is started I can get to the admin page and list overview page but the page indicates that there are no publicly advertised lists, even though all of the lists indicate "advertised = 1" in the dumpdb. Here are some steps I've taken: moved data/archive and mailman configs and Apache configs from old server to new updated URL's ./withlist -l -r fix_url list_name --urlhost=host2.domain.com Checked all settings in Default.py and mm_cfg.py updated /etc/aliases /usr/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms /usr/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms -f /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_lists (displays the lists I migrated from the old server) /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb /var/lib/mailman/lists/list_name/config.pck >~/list_name /usr/lib/mailman/bin/config_list -o list_name-conf (compared to old server and everything looks in order) If I create a newlist from the command line it is able to create the list and sends me an email, but I am unable to create lists from the web interface. Any ideas? ------------------------------------------------------ Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/steven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz From mark at msapiro.net Thu Jun 12 06:37:48 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 21:37:48 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> On 06/11/2014 02:10 PM, Jimmy wrote: > I am upgrading a list server from an old Fedora system to a RHEL 6.5 server > and migration of mailman isn't going well. Mailman (on both systems) is > installed with the RH provided RPM (mailman-2.1.12-18.el6.x86_64) > > The first issue on the new server is that the mailman init script does not > function, fails with this message "Starting mailman: Site list is missing: > mailman". I can manually run `bin/mailmanctl start` and the service seems > to start. Once the service is started I can get to the admin page and list > overview page but the page indicates that there are no publicly advertised > lists, even though all of the lists indicate "advertised = 1" in the dumpdb. The files installed by the RH RPM are not in the same places they were in your old Fedora system. See the FAQ at . > Here are some steps I've taken: > > moved data/archive and mailman configs and Apache configs from old server > to new But probably not to the places the new Mailman expects them to be. Again, see the above FAQ. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Jun 12 06:33:04 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 21:33:04 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to List all the moderators of a mailing list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53992D80.8040006@msapiro.net> On 06/11/2014 01:43 PM, Reinier Carmona Lizana wrote: > I know that with list_admins i can see al the owners or admin of a mailing > list, but now i am trying to get all the moderators from each list. Someone > could give me a suggest? I will appreciate. bin/list_owners --with-listnames will list the owners by list bin/list_owners --with-listnames --moderators will include the moderators. You could do both and the difference would be the moderators. See the FAQ at for more on owners and moderators. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From sylvain at opensource-expert.com Thu Jun 12 10:31:27 2014 From: sylvain at opensource-expert.com (Sylvain Viart) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:31:27 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Formatting the Welcome Message In-Reply-To: <53987D57.90206@qhpress.org> References: <5398783F.6050803@msapiro.net> <53987D57.90206@qhpress.org> Message-ID: <5399655F.9050707@opensource-expert.com> Le 11/06/2014 18:01, Larry Kuenning a ?crit : > Thus _this is important_ will be underlined in Thunderbird, _but this > is also important_ will not (at least if the line break falls within > the markers, as it did when I tested this by sending it to myself). Yep it doesn't work. Is a ticket opened on the Thunderbird's bug tracker? Sylvain. From g17jimmy at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 14:51:07 2014 From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 08:51:07 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> References: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Thanks to Mark and Steven, but it seems that the paths are consistent between servers. I just inherited the server and need to get it on a supported OS. Here is the old server info: Fedora release 13 (Goddard) mailman-2.1.12-17.fc13.i686 New server info: Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server release 6.5 (Santiago) mailman-2.1.12-18.el6.x86_64 Any other ideas? Thanks On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 12:37 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/11/2014 02:10 PM, Jimmy wrote: > > I am upgrading a list server from an old Fedora system to a RHEL 6.5 > server > > and migration of mailman isn't going well. Mailman (on both systems) is > > installed with the RH provided RPM (mailman-2.1.12-18.el6.x86_64) > > > > The first issue on the new server is that the mailman init script does > not > > function, fails with this message "Starting mailman: Site list is > missing: > > mailman". I can manually run `bin/mailmanctl start` and the service seems > > to start. Once the service is started I can get to the admin page and > list > > overview page but the page indicates that there are no publicly > advertised > > lists, even though all of the lists indicate "advertised = 1" in the > dumpdb. > > > The files installed by the RH RPM are not in the same places they were > in your old Fedora system. See the FAQ at . > > > > Here are some steps I've taken: > > > > moved data/archive and mailman configs and Apache configs from old server > > to new > > > But probably not to the places the new Mailman expects them to be. > Again, see the above FAQ. > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/g17jimmy%40gmail.com > From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Thu Jun 12 16:29:26 2014 From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 07:29:26 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action not working in 2.1.18 Message-ID: Hi, I've upgraded our Mailman installation to 2.1.18-1 recently and noticed that the "dmarc_moderation_action" is not working. We've setup a test list, and set the list to "Munge From" for "dmarc_moderation_action". Upon sending a test message in from either one of our Yahoo or AOL accounts the "From" field is being maintained as " username at yahoo.com" or "username at aol.com" respectively. The "vette" log is indicating that DMARC is being detected, and other logs also report DMARC's existence, however the "Munge From" action is NOT being taken. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. *** I searched the archives prior to posting this message, and the topics related to "dmarc_moderation_action" did not seem to cover exactly or resolve my issue. If you require more info, please let me know. *** Best Regards, Peter Knowles TPN Solutions Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Phone: 604-229-0715 Skype: tpnsupport Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com From mark at msapiro.net Thu Jun 12 20:46:46 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 11:46:46 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action not working in 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5399F596.1050408@msapiro.net> On 06/12/2014 07:29 AM, Peter Knowles wrote: > > We've setup a test list, and set the list to "Munge From" for > "dmarc_moderation_action". Upon sending a test message in from either one > of our Yahoo or AOL accounts the "From" field is being maintained as " > username at yahoo.com" or "username at aol.com" respectively. > > The "vette" log is indicating that DMARC is being detected, and other logs > also report DMARC's existence, however the "Munge From" action is NOT being > taken. What happens if you set dmarc_moderation_action to Reject? If the other logs are Mailman logs, what exactly do they report? Have you rearranged the handler pipeline, or do you have a custom pipeline for this list that you didn't update to insert the new WrapMessage handler. WrapMessage must be in the pipeline and should be immediately before ToOutgoing, and CookHeaders must be after Moderate -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Jun 12 20:55:41 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 11:55:41 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: References: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <5399F7AD.5020107@msapiro.net> On 06/12/2014 05:51 AM, Jimmy wrote: > Thanks to Mark and Steven, but it seems that the paths are consistent > between servers. I just inherited the server and need to get it on a > supported OS. Here is the old server info: So you manually run '/some/path/to/bin/mailmanctl start' and it works, but you run 'service mailman start' and it complains there's no site list. Look at /etc/init.d/mailman and see what mailmanctl it's running. It must be different from the one you run by hand. Once you find that, it may clue you as to where your different lists/ and other directories are. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From g17jimmy at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 21:38:37 2014 From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: <5399F7AD.5020107@msapiro.net> References: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> <5399F7AD.5020107@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Yep, done that too. Here is a little demo of what I'm seeing: ========================= [root at mailman-server ~]$/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start Starting Mailman's master qrunner. [root at mailman-server ~]$/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl status mailman (pid 8337) is running... [root at mailman-server ~]$/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl stop Shutting down Mailman's master qrunner [root at mailman-server ~]$service mailman start Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman [FAILED] ========================= The relevant portions of the mailman init script: ========================= MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl function start() { echo -n $"Starting $prog: " mailman-update-cfg daemon $MAILMANCTL -s -q start RETVAL=$? if [ $RETVAL -eq 0 ] then touch /var/lock/subsys/$prog InstallCron else RETVAL=6 fi echo return $RETVAL } ========================= Thanks! On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/12/2014 05:51 AM, Jimmy wrote: > > Thanks to Mark and Steven, but it seems that the paths are consistent > > between servers. I just inherited the server and need to get it on a > > supported OS. Here is the old server info: > > > So you manually run '/some/path/to/bin/mailmanctl start' and it works, > but you run 'service mailman start' and it complains there's no site > list. Look at /etc/init.d/mailman and see what mailmanctl it's running. > It must be different from the one you run by hand. Once you find that, > it may clue you as to where your different lists/ and other directories > are. > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Thu Jun 12 22:41:19 2014 From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 13:41:19 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action not working in 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: <5399F596.1050408@msapiro.net> References: <5399F596.1050408@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Mark, When I set the option to "reject" it rejects properly as expected. But when it's set to "munge from" it sends it out as if "Accept" was chosen. Best Regards, Peter Knowles TPN Solutions Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Phone: 604-229-0715 Skype: tpnsupport Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/12/2014 07:29 AM, Peter Knowles wrote: > > > > We've setup a test list, and set the list to "Munge From" for > > "dmarc_moderation_action". Upon sending a test message in from either one > > of our Yahoo or AOL accounts the "From" field is being maintained as " > > username at yahoo.com" or "username at aol.com" respectively. > > > > The "vette" log is indicating that DMARC is being detected, and other > logs > > also report DMARC's existence, however the "Munge From" action is NOT > being > > taken. > > > What happens if you set dmarc_moderation_action to Reject? > If the other logs are Mailman logs, what exactly do they report? > > Have you rearranged the handler pipeline, or do you have a custom > pipeline for this list that you didn't update to insert the new > WrapMessage handler. WrapMessage must be in the pipeline and should be > immediately before ToOutgoing, and CookHeaders must be after Moderate > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pknowles%40tpnsolutions.com > From mark at msapiro.net Thu Jun 12 23:19:32 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:19:32 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action not working in 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: References: <5399F596.1050408@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <539A1964.2060000@msapiro.net> On 06/12/2014 01:41 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: > > When I set the option to "reject" it rejects properly as expected. But > when it's set to "munge from" it sends it out as if "Accept" was chosen. Then the problem almost certainly has to be the pipeline. There is a new WrapMessage handler that must be in the pipeline. Do you have a GLOBAL_PIPELINE setting in mm_cfg.py? If so, look at the setting in Defaults.py and make sure it contains the WrapMessage entry in the right place. If not, try bin/withlist LISTNAME and then at the prompt enter m.pipeline. Does that return a value rather than AttributeError? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Thu Jun 12 23:27:55 2014 From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:27:55 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action not working in 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: <539A1964.2060000@msapiro.net> References: <5399F596.1050408@msapiro.net> <539A1964.2060000@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Mark, Inside mm_cfg.py, "GLOBAL_PIPELINE" has the following: SpamDetect Approve Replybot Moderate Hold MimeDel Scrubber Emergency Tagger CalcRecips AvoidDuplicates Cleanse CleanseDKIM CookieHeaders ToDigest ToArchive AfterDelivery Acknowledge ToOutgoing Best Regards, Peter Knowles TPN Solutions Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Phone: 604-229-0715 Skype: tpnsupport Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/12/2014 01:41 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: > > > > When I set the option to "reject" it rejects properly as expected. But > > when it's set to "munge from" it sends it out as if "Accept" was chosen. > > > Then the problem almost certainly has to be the pipeline. There is a new > WrapMessage handler that must be in the pipeline. > > Do you have a GLOBAL_PIPELINE setting in mm_cfg.py? If so, look at the > setting in Defaults.py and make sure it contains the WrapMessage entry > in the right place. > > If not, try > > bin/withlist LISTNAME > > and then at the prompt enter m.pipeline. Does that return a value rather > than AttributeError? > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Thu Jun 12 23:34:50 2014 From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:34:50 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action not working in 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: References: <5399F596.1050408@msapiro.net> <539A1964.2060000@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Mark, In Defaults.py "GLOBAL_PIPELINE" has the following: SpamDetect Approve Replybot Moderate Hold MimeDel Scrubber Emergency Tagger CalcRecips AvoidDuplicates CleanseDKIM CookieHeaders ToDigest ToArchive ToUsenet AfterDelivery Acknowledge WrapMessage ToOutgoing Best Regards, Peter Knowles TPN Solutions Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Phone: 604-229-0715 Skype: tpnsupport Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: > Mark, > > Inside mm_cfg.py, "GLOBAL_PIPELINE" has the following: > > SpamDetect > Approve > Replybot > Moderate > Hold > MimeDel > Scrubber > Emergency > Tagger > CalcRecips > AvoidDuplicates > Cleanse > CleanseDKIM > CookieHeaders > ToDigest > ToArchive > AfterDelivery > Acknowledge > ToOutgoing > > Best Regards, > Peter Knowles > TPN Solutions > > Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com > Phone: 604-229-0715 > Skype: tpnsupport > Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com > > > On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> On 06/12/2014 01:41 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: >> > >> > When I set the option to "reject" it rejects properly as expected. But >> > when it's set to "munge from" it sends it out as if "Accept" was chosen. >> >> >> Then the problem almost certainly has to be the pipeline. There is a new >> WrapMessage handler that must be in the pipeline. >> >> Do you have a GLOBAL_PIPELINE setting in mm_cfg.py? If so, look at the >> setting in Defaults.py and make sure it contains the WrapMessage entry >> in the right place. >> >> If not, try >> >> bin/withlist LISTNAME >> >> and then at the prompt enter m.pipeline. Does that return a value rather >> than AttributeError? >> >> -- >> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, >> San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan >> > > From mark at msapiro.net Fri Jun 13 00:19:16 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:19:16 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action not working in 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: References: <5399F596.1050408@msapiro.net> <539A1964.2060000@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <3c8d417b-fef8-462b-99fa-b54dc7924573@email.android.com> On June 12, 2014 2:34:50 PM PDT, Peter Knowles wrote: >Mark, > >In Defaults.py "GLOBAL_PIPELINE" has the following: > >SpamDetect >Approve >Replybot >Moderate >Hold >MimeDel >Scrubber >Emergency >Tagger >CalcRecips >AvoidDuplicates Cleanse is missing here. I am guessing this is a typo. >CleanseDKIM >CookieHeaders >ToDigest >ToArchive >ToUsenet >AfterDelivery >Acknowledge >WrapMessage WrapMessage is missing from your mm_cfg.py version. That's the problem. >ToOutgoing > > > >On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Peter Knowles > >wrote: > >> Mark, >> >> Inside mm_cfg.py, "GLOBAL_PIPELINE" has the following: >> ... Do not redefine GLOBAL_PIPELINE in mm_cfg.py for exactly this reason. It seems your intent is to remove ToUsenet from the pipeline. If this is correct, remove your definition of GLOBAL_PIPELINE from mm_cfg.py and instead put GLOBAL_PIPELINE. remove('ToUsenet') to avoid issues like this in the future. -- Mark Sapiro Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. [Unpaid endorsement] From mark at msapiro.net Fri Jun 13 01:35:10 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:35:10 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: References: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> <5399F7AD.5020107@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <539A392E.3070001@msapiro.net> On 06/12/2014 12:38 PM, Jimmy wrote: > > The relevant portions of the mailman init script: > > ========================= > MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman > MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl Does this file perhaps contain anything like if [ -f /etc/sysconfig/mailman ] ; then . /etc/sysconfig/mailman fi that would override those settings from another file? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From sparr0 at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 16:24:07 2014 From: sparr0 at gmail.com (Sparr) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 10:24:07 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? Message-ID: On 05/02/2014 10:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 05/02/2014 05:21 PM, Andrew Partan wrote: > > Is there some way of ignoring the DMCAC bounces? That way a message > > From: some... at yahoo.com will not not increase the bounce count of > > all Yahoo, AOL, Hotmail, ATT, MSN, and Comcast users. > > It's difficult. If The local MTA is refused and reports directly to > Mailman at SMTP time, Mailman will only see the SMTP status, e.g. 554, > 521, or 550 in your examples. It is not possible to distinguish DMARC > from other failures just by this 5xx status. > > More likely, the local MTA accepted the message from Mailman and is now > delivering a DSN. If every MTA delivered an RFC 3464 compliant DSN with > an RFC 1893 extended status code, one could just ignore 5.7.x bounces, > but even your example services don't all use a 5.7.x code even though > the RFC is clear that that is the code for security or policy rejection. > > Then there is the fact that many real world MTAs report in their own way > and don't necessarily provide enough information to tell what the reason > is. Take a look at Mailman/Bouncers/* to get an idea of what you'd be up > against. > > > Yahoo & ATT say this: > > 554 5.7.9 Message not accepted for policy reasons. See > > http://postmaster.yahoo.com/errors/postmaster-28.html > > > > AOL says this: > > 521 5.2.1 : (DMARC) This message failed DMARC Evaluation > > and is being refused due to provided DMARC Policy > > > > Comcast says this: > > 550 5.2.0 x4fx1n03n5DGQ1A034fysP Message rejected due to > > DMARC. Please see > > http://postmaster.comcast.net/smtp-error-codes.php#DM000001 > > > > MSN/Hotmail say this: > > 550 5.7.0 (BAY0-MCn-Fn) Unfortunately, messages from (N.N.N.N) > > on behalf of (yahoo.com) could not be delivered due to > > domain owner policy restrictions.) Yahoo, ATT, MSN, Hotmail, and Google all seem to respond with 5.7.x status codes. If ignoring 5.7.x responses is a good approach, and a large fraction (significant majority, I suspect) of users use services that give 5.7.x responses, and mailman is already able to parse those responses, then it sounds like ignoring 5.7.x bounces (or counting them differently) is a viable step to take. From g17jimmy at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 20:25:05 2014 From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 14:25:05 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: <539B3CA1.9080203@msapiro.net> References: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> <5399F7AD.5020107@msapiro.net> <539A392E.3070001@msapiro.net> <539B3CA1.9080203@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Here is what is on the new server /var/log/mailman /var/run/mailman /var/lock/mailman /var/lib/mailman /var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/mailman /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman /var/spool/postfix/private/mailman /var/spool/mailman /usr/lib/mailman /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/mailman /etc/smrsh/mailman /etc/mailman /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman /etc/logrotate.d/mailman /etc/cron.d/mailman This is what is on the old server: /var/run/mailman /var/log/mailman /var/lib/mailman /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/mailman /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman /var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman /var/lock/subsys/mailman /var/lock/mailman /var/spool/mailman /usr/lib/mailman /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/mailman /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman /etc/smrsh/mailman /etc/logrotate.d/mailman /etc/mailman /etc/cron.d/mailman Thanks for the help On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 2:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/13/2014 10:40 AM, Jimmy wrote: > > I checked and it doesn't have anything that would override the settings. > > What are the results of > > locate mailman > > and/or > > sudo find / -name mailman > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > From pshute at nuw.org.au Fri Jun 13 21:24:20 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 05:24:20 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> >> On 14 Jun 2014, at 3:23 am, "Sparr" wrote: >> >> Then there is the fact that many real world MTAs report in their own way >> and don't necessarily provide enough information to tell what the reason >> is. Take a look at Mailman/Bouncers/* to get an idea of what you'd be up >> against. >> >>> Yahoo & ATT say this: >>> 554 5.7.9 Message not accepted for policy reasons. See >>> http://postmaster.yahoo.com/errors/postmaster-28.html >>> >>> AOL says this: >>> 521 5.2.1 : (DMARC) This message failed DMARC Evaluation >>> and is being refused due to provided DMARC Policy >>> >>> Comcast says this: >>> 550 5.2.0 x4fx1n03n5DGQ1A034fysP Message rejected due to >>> DMARC. Please see >>> http://postmaster.comcast.net/smtp-error-codes.php#DM000001 >>> >>> MSN/Hotmail say this: >>> 550 5.7.0 (BAY0-MCn-Fn) Unfortunately, messages from (N.N.N.N) >>> on behalf of (yahoo.com) could not be delivered due to >>> domain owner policy restrictions.) > > Yahoo, ATT, MSN, Hotmail, and Google all seem to respond with 5.7.x > status codes. If ignoring 5.7.x responses is a good approach, and a > large fraction (significant majority, I suspect) of users use services > that give 5.7.x responses, and mailman is already able to parse those > responses, then it sounds like ignoring 5.7.x bounces (or counting > them differently) is a viable step to take. It probably(?) can't hurt, but what's the point if each bounce represents an undelivered message? Isn't it better to modify the messages so they don't bounce? Peter Shute From incoming-pythonlists at rjl.com Fri Jun 13 21:22:24 2014 From: incoming-pythonlists at rjl.com (Natu) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 12:22:24 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: References: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> <5399F7AD.5020107@msapiro.net> <539A392E.3070001@msapiro.net> <539B3CA1.9080203@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <539B4F70.5030505@rjl.com> On 06/13/2014 11:25 AM, Jimmy wrote: > Here is what is on the new server > > /var/log/mailman > /var/run/mailman > /var/lock/mailman > /var/lib/mailman > /var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman > /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/mailman > /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman > /var/spool/postfix/private/mailman > /var/spool/mailman > /usr/lib/mailman > /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman > /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/mailman > /etc/smrsh/mailman > /etc/mailman > /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman > /etc/logrotate.d/mailman > /etc/cron.d/mailman > > This is what is on the old server: > /var/run/mailman > /var/log/mailman > /var/lib/mailman > /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/mailman > /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman > /var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman > /var/lock/subsys/mailman > /var/lock/mailman > /var/spool/mailman > /usr/lib/mailman > /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/mailman > /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman > /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman > /etc/smrsh/mailman > /etc/logrotate.d/mailman > /etc/mailman > /etc/cron.d/mailman > > Thanks for the help > > > Are you running an OS which uses upstart to start services? Check to see if you have /etc/init/mailman.conf or similar and if so, verify that the script is correct. Natu From mark at msapiro.net Fri Jun 13 22:03:01 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:03:01 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: References: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> <5399F7AD.5020107@msapiro.net> <539A392E.3070001@msapiro.net> <539B3CA1.9080203@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <539B58F5.8040909@msapiro.net> On 06/13/2014 11:25 AM, Jimmy wrote: > Here is what is on the new server ... OK. I'm at a total loss and grasping at straws, but could this be a SeLinux issue. If SeLinux is enabled, try disabling it and see if that helps. Also, you might look at the FAQ at , but it seems you've already covered that. Regarding lists not appearing on the listinfo overview and not being able to create lists from the web, can you successfully go to a list's listinfo page by appending /listname to the URL?, and are you sure that DNS is taking you to the right server? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From g17jimmy at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 22:07:08 2014 From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 16:07:08 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: <539B4F70.5030505@rjl.com> References: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> <5399F7AD.5020107@msapiro.net> <539A392E.3070001@msapiro.net> <539B3CA1.9080203@msapiro.net> <539B4F70.5030505@rjl.com> Message-ID: RHEL6.x does use upstart, but neither the old nor new server has a file /etc/init/mailman.conf. Thanks On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Natu wrote: > On 06/13/2014 11:25 AM, Jimmy wrote: > > Here is what is on the new server > > > > /var/log/mailman > > /var/run/mailman > > /var/lock/mailman > > /var/lib/mailman > > /var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman > > /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/mailman > > /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman > > /var/spool/postfix/private/mailman > > /var/spool/mailman > > /usr/lib/mailman > > /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman > > /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/mailman > > /etc/smrsh/mailman > > /etc/mailman > > /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman > > /etc/logrotate.d/mailman > > /etc/cron.d/mailman > > > > This is what is on the old server: > > /var/run/mailman > > /var/log/mailman > > /var/lib/mailman > > /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/mailman > > /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman > > /var/lib/mailman/lists/mailman > > /var/lock/subsys/mailman > > /var/lock/mailman > > /var/spool/mailman > > /usr/lib/mailman > > /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/mailman > > /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman > > /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman > > /etc/smrsh/mailman > > /etc/logrotate.d/mailman > > /etc/mailman > > /etc/cron.d/mailman > > > > Thanks for the help > > > > > > > > Are you running an OS which uses upstart to start services? Check to > see if you have /etc/init/mailman.conf or similar and if so, verify that > the script is correct. > > Natu > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/g17jimmy%40gmail.com > From cgarch at sonic.net Fri Jun 13 23:05:59 2014 From: cgarch at sonic.net (Craig Gaevert) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 14:05:59 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digests not sending? Message-ID: I run a few mailing lists through the hosts at Sonic.net. They recently upgraded equipment and software from 2.1.11 to 2.1.18-1. After following the threads on the DMARC issue, I was certainly pleased to have this resolved. Now however, in spite of what I am fairly sure are the correct settings, since nothing else changed, digests are not triggering on a daily basis. AFAICT, the setting Digest_Send_Periodic is set to ?Yes? but nothing happens. As I don?t have access to the logs, it is difficult for me to figure out what?s going on. I do have a support ticket in with Sonic but thought perhaps posting here might lead to a pointer as to what the issue might be and I can refer same to them. Thanks much. Craig Gaevert Listmom srcc-c-owner at lists.sonic.net cgarch at sonic.net From mark at msapiro.net Fri Jun 13 23:19:51 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 14:19:51 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digests not sending? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539B6AF7.2020202@msapiro.net> On 06/13/2014 02:05 PM, Craig Gaevert wrote: > Now however, in spite of what I am > fairly sure are the correct settings, since nothing else changed, > digests are not triggering on a daily basis. AFAICT, the setting > Digest_Send_Periodic is set to ?Yes? but nothing happens. As I don?t > have access to the logs, it is difficult for me to figure out what?s > going on. I do have a support ticket in with Sonic but thought > perhaps posting here might lead to a pointer as to what the issue > might be and I can refer same to them. Thanks much. The most likely explanation is that Mailman's cron/senddigests is not being run or it is encountering some problem. Their upgrade shouldn't have affected this, but they need to see that there is a crontab (either system or user) to run Mailman's cron jobs and that they aren't throwing exceptions or errors. One issue with cron errors is that often they are mailed by default to the crontab owner which is usually 'mailman' which in turn is usually the site list which doesn't accept the 'non-member post' or if it does, no one sees it. The site list should always accept non-member posts and the site mailman admin should be a member of the site list and receive them. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From glenm at locutory.org Sat Jun 14 05:07:11 2014 From: glenm at locutory.org (glen martin) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 20:07:11 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action not working in 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: <539A1964.2060000@msapiro.net> References: <5399F596.1050408@msapiro.net> <539A1964.2060000@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <539BBC5F.7030509@locutory.org> I'm having a similar problem, also using 2.1.18-1. Posts from a Yahoo user are bouncing on redelivery to him. Jun 13 18:55:00 host postfix/smtp[15681]: 912BD520AB: to=, relay=mta5.am0.yahoodns.net[98.138.112.33]:25, delay=1.2, delays=0.05/0/0.25/0.92, dsn=5.7.9, status=bounced (host mta5.am0.yahoodns.net[98.138.112.33] said: 554 5.7.9 Message not accepted for policy reasons. See http://postmaster.yahoo.com/errors/postmaster-28.html (in reply to end of DATA command)) I don't have a GLOBAL_PIPELINE in mm_cfg.py. host mailman # grep PIPELINE Mailman/mm_cfg.py host mailman # bin/withlist Test-list2 Loading list test-list2 (unlocked) The variable `m' is the test-list2 MailList instance >>> m.pipeline Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 146, in __getattr__ raise AttributeError, name AttributeError: pipeline >>> Finalizing host mailman # General Options from_is_list is Munge From anonymous_list is No Privacy Options --> Sender Filters dmarc_moderation_action is Munge From dmarc_quarantine_moderation_action is Yes The GLOBAL_PIPELINE in Defaults.py looks ok to me: GLOBAL_PIPELINE = [ # These are the modules that do tasks common to all delivery paths. 'SpamDetect', 'Approve', 'Replybot', 'Moderate', 'Hold', 'MimeDel', 'Scrubber', 'Emergency', 'Tagger', 'CalcRecips', 'AvoidDuplicates', 'Cleanse', 'CleanseDKIM', 'CookHeaders', # And now we send the message to the digest mbox file, and to the arch and # news queues. Runners will provide further processing of the message, # specific to those delivery paths. 'ToDigest', 'ToArchive', 'ToUsenet', # Now we'll do a few extra things specific to the member delivery # (outgoing) path, finally leaving the message in the outgoing queue. 'AfterDelivery', 'Acknowledge', 'WrapMessage', 'ToOutgoing', ] Any ideas what I could try? Thanks glen On 06/12/2014 02:19 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/12/2014 01:41 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: >> When I set the option to "reject" it rejects properly as expected. But >> when it's set to "munge from" it sends it out as if "Accept" was chosen. > > Then the problem almost certainly has to be the pipeline. There is a new > WrapMessage handler that must be in the pipeline. > > Do you have a GLOBAL_PIPELINE setting in mm_cfg.py? If so, look at the > setting in Defaults.py and make sure it contains the WrapMessage entry > in the right place. > > If not, try > > bin/withlist LISTNAME > > and then at the prompt enter m.pipeline. Does that return a value rather > than AttributeError? > From mark at msapiro.net Sat Jun 14 06:02:59 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 21:02:59 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action not working in 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: <539BBC5F.7030509@locutory.org> References: <5399F596.1050408@msapiro.net> <539A1964.2060000@msapiro.net> <539BBC5F.7030509@locutory.org> Message-ID: <539BC973.4070200@msapiro.net> On 06/13/2014 08:07 PM, glen martin wrote: > I'm having a similar problem, also using 2.1.18-1. Posts from a Yahoo > user are bouncing on redelivery to him. > > Jun 13 18:55:00 host postfix/smtp[15681]: 912BD520AB: > to=, relay=mta5.am0.yahoodns.net[98.138.112.33]:25, > delay=1.2, delays=0.05/0/0.25/0.92, dsn=5.7.9, status=bounced (host > mta5.am0.yahoodns.net[98.138.112.33] said: 554 5.7.9 Message not > accepted for policy reasons. See > http://postmaster.yahoo.com/errors/postmaster-28.html (in reply to > end of DATA command)) ... > > General Options > > from_is_list is Munge From > anonymous_list is No > > Privacy Options --> Sender Filters > > dmarc_moderation_action is Munge From > dmarc_quarantine_moderation_action is Yes with the above, your list should be munging the From: on all outgoing messages because from_is_list is Munge From. The dmarc_moderation_action of Munge From is redundant in this case. It would serve to munge the >From only on messages originally from domains with DMARC p=reject or quarantine if from_is_list were No. So the first question is what does the From: look like on messages from the list. Is it From: Jane User (which is not what it should be - something is wrong) or is it From: Jane User via LISTNAME list which is what it should be. If it is the latter, and your mailman.host does not publish a DMARC policy, then Yahoo is not rejecting the mail for DMARC, but for some other unknown to me reason, but Mailman is doing what it can. If the From: is not munged, then there is a Mailman issue we can investigate. So which is it? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From glenm at locutory.org Sat Jun 14 07:07:03 2014 From: glenm at locutory.org (glen martin) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 22:07:03 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] dmarc_moderation_action not working in 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: <539BC973.4070200@msapiro.net> References: <5399F596.1050408@msapiro.net> <539A1964.2060000@msapiro.net> <539BBC5F.7030509@locutory.org> <539BC973.4070200@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <539BD877.20101@locutory.org> The From was not being munged, it was showing up as From: Jane User However, I noticed some other problems so I rebooted the host just to make sure every change had fully taken hold .. and things are working now. So it is strange, while I had previously restarted mailman, something was still not working right until a reboot. Maybe a problem in my init scripts. thx glen On 06/13/2014 09:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/13/2014 08:07 PM, glen martin wrote: >> I'm having a similar problem, also using 2.1.18-1. Posts from a Yahoo >> user are bouncing on redelivery to him. >> >> Jun 13 18:55:00 host postfix/smtp[15681]: 912BD520AB: >> to=, relay=mta5.am0.yahoodns.net[98.138.112.33]:25, >> delay=1.2, delays=0.05/0/0.25/0.92, dsn=5.7.9, status=bounced (host >> mta5.am0.yahoodns.net[98.138.112.33] said: 554 5.7.9 Message not >> accepted for policy reasons. See >> http://postmaster.yahoo.com/errors/postmaster-28.html (in reply to >> end of DATA command)) > ... >> General Options >> >> from_is_list is Munge From >> anonymous_list is No >> >> Privacy Options --> Sender Filters >> >> dmarc_moderation_action is Munge From >> dmarc_quarantine_moderation_action is Yes > > with the above, your list should be munging the From: on all outgoing > messages because from_is_list is Munge From. The dmarc_moderation_action > of Munge From is redundant in this case. It would serve to munge the > From only on messages originally from domains with DMARC p=reject or > quarantine if from_is_list were No. > > So the first question is what does the From: look like on messages from > the list. Is it > > From: Jane User > > (which is not what it should be - something is wrong) or is it > > From: Jane User via LISTNAME list > > which is what it should be. If it is the latter, and your mailman.host > does not publish a DMARC policy, then Yahoo is not rejecting the mail > for DMARC, but for some other unknown to me reason, but Mailman is doing > what it can. > > If the From: is not munged, then there is a Mailman issue we can > investigate. So which is it? > From stephen at xemacs.org Sat Jun 14 13:20:14 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 20:20:14 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> Message-ID: <8761k3ohzl.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Peter Shute writes: > It probably(?) can't hurt, but what's the point if each bounce > represents an undelivered message? Each bounce is one bounce that takes a perfectly innocent user one bounce closer to getting disabled or unsubscribed. We need to do something about this. The easiest thing may be to simply ignore bounces on messages from p=reject domains. > Isn't it better to modify the messages so they don't bounce? Lots of people have different opinions on that. Remember, the Author Domain wants those messages bounced, that's what p=reject means. A lot of people think that policy should be respected. From sparr0 at gmail.com Sat Jun 14 13:51:26 2014 From: sparr0 at gmail.com (Sparr) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 07:51:26 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Peter Shute wrote: > It probably(?) can't hurt, but what's the point if each bounce represents an undelivered message? Isn't it better to modify the messages so they don't bounce? I'd be more inclined to remove the posting privileges of someone whose posts produce more delivery failures than a normal user's. Modifying the messages bothers me (and a lot of other people, as indicated by the last dozen times similar conversations have been had, about changing Reply-To and From and Subject and ...) and should be the last resort. From stephen at xemacs.org Sat Jun 14 14:42:06 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 21:42:06 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> Message-ID: <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Sparr writes: > Modifying the messages bothers me (and a lot of other people, as > indicated by the last dozen times similar conversations have been had, > about changing Reply-To and From and Subject and ...) and should be > the last resort. Well, actually the point is that lists need to do fewer modifications than they already do. DMARC has two tests, one for the domain in From being equivalent to the IP of the SMTP client, which will fail unless the author is at the mailing list's domain, and a DKIM signature. The signature will survive and be valid at the recipient in the case that the message is completely unmodified. However, mailing lists typically make one or more of the following modifications: add a list tag to the Subject field, add a header or footer to the body, remove prohibited MIME bodies (.exes, text/html, etc), or transform text/html to text/plain. Any of those will cause the usual DKIM signature to be invalidated. DMARC-using domains typically sign From (required by the DKIM protocol), To, Cc, Subject, and the whole body (effectively including the end of the message, preventing appended material such as a footer). My personal opinion is that these traditional changes are expected and desired by mailing list subscribers, and that posting from "p=reject" domains is thereby a violation of the policy of the "p=reject" domain, and places other subscribers at risk. I think mailing lists should reject such posts (if the signature is valid), or silently discard them (if it is not). However, subscribers from those domains are unlikely to agree .... From cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu Sat Jun 14 18:22:58 2014 From: cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu (Conrad G T Yoder) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:22:58 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] 4.3.0 mail transport unavailable Message-ID: <9D606DCF-98C6-4CB4-B702-3CE4420D57B4@alum.mit.edu> I have recently (last couple weeks?) started getting "4.3.0 mail transport unavailable? bounces from roadrunner/TW addresses (the rate-limiting issue is not currently rearing its head), and that is causing Mailman (2.1.17) subscriptions to be disabled. Example error message in the ?Bounce action notification? email: Reporting-MTA: dns; zapata.dreamhost.com X-Postfix-Queue-ID: B6D6B8DB0B72 X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; neohiopal-bounces at lists.neohiopal.org Arrival-Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 05:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Final-Recipient: rfc822; foo at roadrunner.com Original-Recipient: rfc822;foo at roadrunner.com Action: failed Status: 4.3.0 Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail transport unavailable From googling it appears this is may be a Postfix problem? Any one else seeing this with roadrunner/time warner? -Conrad -- SILENCE Don?t tweet our secrets From mark at msapiro.net Sat Jun 14 19:03:39 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:03:39 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] 4.3.0 mail transport unavailable In-Reply-To: <9D606DCF-98C6-4CB4-B702-3CE4420D57B4@alum.mit.edu> References: <9D606DCF-98C6-4CB4-B702-3CE4420D57B4@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539C806B.5080909@msapiro.net> On 06/14/2014 09:22 AM, Conrad G T Yoder wrote: > I have recently (last couple weeks?) started getting "4.3.0 mail transport unavailable? bounces from roadrunner/TW addresses (the rate-limiting issue is not currently rearing its head), and that is causing Mailman (2.1.17) subscriptions to be disabled. Example error message in the ?Bounce action notification? email: > > > > Reporting-MTA: dns; zapata.dreamhost.com > X-Postfix-Queue-ID: B6D6B8DB0B72 > X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; neohiopal-bounces at lists.neohiopal.org > Arrival-Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 05:15:45 -0700 (PDT) > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; foo at roadrunner.com > Original-Recipient: rfc822;foo at roadrunner.com > Action: failed > Status: 4.3.0 > Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail transport unavailable > > > >>From googling it appears this is may be a Postfix problem? Any one else seeing this with roadrunner/time warner? Yes, it would seem to be a problem with Postfix at zapata.dreamhost.com. Is dreamhost.com your Mailman host or a downstream relay in this case? If they are your outbound MTA, it seems strange that this would affect only mail to the roadrunner.com domain, but in any case, I think it's up to Dreamhost to fix it. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From jimpop at gmail.com Sat Jun 14 19:09:34 2014 From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 13:09:34 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] 4.3.0 mail transport unavailable In-Reply-To: <539C806B.5080909@msapiro.net> References: <9D606DCF-98C6-4CB4-B702-3CE4420D57B4@alum.mit.edu> <539C806B.5080909@msapiro.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > > On 06/14/2014 09:22 AM, Conrad G T Yoder wrote: > > I have recently (last couple weeks?) started getting "4.3.0 mail transport unavailable? bounces from roadrunner/TW addresses (the rate-limiting issue is not currently rearing its head), and that is causing Mailman (2.1.17) subscriptions to be disabled. Example error message in the ?Bounce action notification? email: > > > > > > > > Reporting-MTA: dns; zapata.dreamhost.com > > X-Postfix-Queue-ID: B6D6B8DB0B72 > > X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; neohiopal-bounces at lists.neohiopal.org > > Arrival-Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 05:15:45 -0700 (PDT) > > > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; foo at roadrunner.com > > Original-Recipient: rfc822;foo at roadrunner.com > > Action: failed > > Status: 4.3.0 > > Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail transport unavailable > > > > > > > >>From googling it appears this is may be a Postfix problem? Any one else seeing this with roadrunner/time warner? > > > Yes, it would seem to be a problem with Postfix at zapata.dreamhost.com. > Is dreamhost.com your Mailman host or a downstream relay in this case? > If they are your outbound MTA, it seems strange that this would affect > only mail to the roadrunner.com domain, but in any case, I think it's up > to Dreamhost to fix it. This link was posted on the MailOP list earlier today, possibly related (little details) http://wivb.com/2014/06/13/time-warner-responds-to-email-outage-complaints/ -Jim P. From pshute at nuw.org.au Sun Jun 15 01:46:52 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 09:46:52 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <5D0E5273-E6CB-497D-87BE-5B9A03B6B267@nuw.org.au> Sent from my iPad > On 14 Jun 2014, at 10:42 pm, "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote: > > My personal opinion is that these traditional changes are expected and > desired by mailing list subscribers, and that posting from "p=reject" > domains is thereby a violation of the policy of the "p=reject" domain, > and places other subscribers at risk. I think mailing lists should > reject such posts (if the signature is valid), or silently discard > them (if it is not). In other words these members can receive only? That would have the desirable effect of encouraging them to get a new email address. But from the member's perspective they're being asked to change something they've possibly had for many years, for a reason they don't fully understand, and which they may not even believe. After all, they can send ok to other recipients, so why not lists? The end result might be to simply drive them away, so I'm in favour of getting their postings to the list somehow. Peter Shute From stephen at xemacs.org Sun Jun 15 02:04:28 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 09:04:28 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] 4.3.0 mail transport unavailable In-Reply-To: <9D606DCF-98C6-4CB4-B702-3CE4420D57B4@alum.mit.edu> References: <9D606DCF-98C6-4CB4-B702-3CE4420D57B4@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <87zjhfm41f.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Conrad G T Yoder writes: > I have recently (last couple weeks?) started getting "4.3.0 mail > transport unavailable? bounces from roadrunner/TW addresses (the > rate-limiting issue is not currently rearing its head), and that is > causing Mailman (2.1.17) subscriptions to be disabled. Example > error message in the ?Bounce action notification? email: Note that the message you're reporting is a temporary failure (that's what a 4.x.x status code means) so I don't really understand why the bounce count is being incremented for this. Whichever MTA is actually talking to Time-Warner should be bumping this to a 5.x.x "permanent" failure (in this case, giving up after trying repeatedly). From mark at msapiro.net Sun Jun 15 05:56:05 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 20:56:05 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] 4.3.0 mail transport unavailable In-Reply-To: <87zjhfm41f.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <9D606DCF-98C6-4CB4-B702-3CE4420D57B4@alum.mit.edu> <87zjhfm41f.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <539D1955.10603@msapiro.net> On 06/14/2014 05:04 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Conrad G T Yoder writes: > > > I have recently (last couple weeks?) started getting "4.3.0 mail > > transport unavailable? bounces from roadrunner/TW addresses (the > > rate-limiting issue is not currently rearing its head), and that is > > causing Mailman (2.1.17) subscriptions to be disabled. Example > > error message in the ?Bounce action notification? email: > > Note that the message you're reporting is a temporary failure (that's > what a 4.x.x status code means) so I don't really understand why the > bounce count is being incremented for this. Whichever MTA is actually > talking to Time-Warner should be bumping this to a 5.x.x "permanent" > failure (in this case, giving up after trying repeatedly). Postfix will keep retrying the temporary failure at intervals until the message has been in the queue for maximal_queue_lifetime (default 5 days) at which point it gives up and returns the DSN. The DSN has "Action: failed" which says delivery ultimately failed and this is what Mailman looks at. The extended status is still 4.x.x which is the status of each individual (or probably just the last) delivery attempt. This is compliant with RFC 1893. RFC 1893 Sec 3.5 says in part: X.4.7 Delivery time expired The message was considered too old by the rejecting system, either because it remained on that host too long or because the time-to-live value specified by the sender of the message was exceeded. If possible, the code for the actual problem found when delivery was attempted should be returned rather than this code. This is useful only as a persistent transient error. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Sun Jun 15 08:21:10 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 15:21:10 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: <5D0E5273-E6CB-497D-87BE-5B9A03B6B267@nuw.org.au> References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <5D0E5273-E6CB-497D-87BE-5B9A03B6B267@nuw.org.au> Message-ID: <87wqcin161.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Peter Shute writes: > But from the member's perspective they're being asked to change > something they've possibly had for many years, for a reason they > don't fully understand, and which they may not even believe. That kind of thing happens to me all the time (I now live in Japan). Nothing new about that. > After all, they can send ok to other recipients, so why not lists? If they don't want to learn why not, they'll just have to take someone's word for it. They chose Yahoo!, Yahoo! chose to deny them service. Not the list -- if the list changes *nothing* (that it has "possibly had for many years"), most subscribers will not receive any posts from Yahoo! users. What changed? "p=reject", that's all. And remember, it's not just lists that Yahoo! is screwing with. It's also "on behalf of" services, including some that are more or less entertainment ("to send this image to your friend, enter her email address and yours"), and some that are the lifeblood of real businesses (eg, invoicing services such as QuickBooks Online from Intuit).[1] > The end result might be to simply drive them away, so I'm in favour > of getting their postings to the list somehow. Fine. I'm just saying what *I* am in favor of. Yahoo!'s tech staff has admitted that they're doing this because it serves their purpose and because nobody can stop them, not because they believe it generally improves the quality of life on the Internet. They under- stand that they're degrading service to their own users and many innocent third parties in order to patch up a security breach that they have not been able to explain, maybe because they don't know, and maybe because it would hurt their business to explain. IMO, friends don't let friends use Yahoo! YMMV of course. Footnotes: [1] @Jim P. This is another reason why the word "transactional" has become unpopular on the DMARC list -- Q.B.O. is an easy example of an automated transactional service that "p=reject" interferes with. From cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu Sun Jun 15 19:50:12 2014 From: cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu (Conrad G T Yoder) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 13:50:12 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] 4.3.0 mail transport unavailable In-Reply-To: <539C806B.5080909@msapiro.net> References: <9D606DCF-98C6-4CB4-B702-3CE4420D57B4@alum.mit.edu> <539C806B.5080909@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <8752D570-C090-4336-97E8-09381EE88031@alum.mit.edu> On Jun 14, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/14/2014 09:22 AM, Conrad G T Yoder wrote: >> I have recently (last couple weeks?) started getting "4.3.0 mail transport unavailable? bounces from roadrunner/TW addresses (the rate-limiting issue is not currently rearing its head), and that is causing Mailman (2.1.17) subscriptions to be disabled. Example error message in the ?Bounce action notification? email: >> >> >> >> Reporting-MTA: dns; zapata.dreamhost.com >> X-Postfix-Queue-ID: B6D6B8DB0B72 >> X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; neohiopal-bounces at lists.neohiopal.org >> Arrival-Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 05:15:45 -0700 (PDT) >> >> Final-Recipient: rfc822; foo at roadrunner.com >> Original-Recipient: rfc822;foo at roadrunner.com >> Action: failed >> Status: 4.3.0 >> Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail transport unavailable >> >> >> >>> From googling it appears this is may be a Postfix problem? Any one else seeing this with roadrunner/time warner? > > > Yes, it would seem to be a problem with Postfix at zapata.dreamhost.com. > Is dreamhost.com your Mailman host or a downstream relay in this case? > If they are your outbound MTA, it seems strange that this would affect > only mail to the roadrunner.com domain, but in any case, I think it's up > to Dreamhost to fix it. DH is indeed my Mailman host. If you remember, I was (hopefully all in the past - knock on wood laminate) having issues with RR/TW rate-limiting mailing list emails from DH?s server, causing bouncing/subscription disabling. Who knows if this is related. I am in touch with them to see what is going on. -Conrad -- Is there a suspect in your family? Contact the Ministry of Information. Ring 100 00 00. From g17jimmy at gmail.com Mon Jun 16 15:25:24 2014 From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:25:24 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman init script doesn't work and webpage doesn't show list of lists In-Reply-To: <539B58F5.8040909@msapiro.net> References: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> <5399F7AD.5020107@msapiro.net> <539A392E.3070001@msapiro.net> <539B3CA1.9080203@msapiro.net> <539B58F5.8040909@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Mark, Good straw to grasp at. I thought SElinux had already been disabled but it hadn't. It seems to be working now. Thanks! On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/13/2014 11:25 AM, Jimmy wrote: > > Here is what is on the new server > ... > > > OK. I'm at a total loss and grasping at straws, but could this be a > SeLinux issue. If SeLinux is enabled, try disabling it and see if that > helps. > > Also, you might look at the FAQ at , but it > seems you've already covered that. > > Regarding lists not appearing on the listinfo overview and not being > able to create lists from the web, can you successfully go to a list's > listinfo page by appending /listname to the URL?, and are you sure that > DNS is taking you to the right server? > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > From gemoya at inf.utfsm.cl Sun Jun 15 20:32:01 2014 From: gemoya at inf.utfsm.cl (Gonzalo Moya) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 14:32:01 -0400 (CLT) Subject: [Mailman-Users] list of lists mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: <2117106748.1702914.1402855738300.JavaMail.zimbra@inf.utfsm.cl> Message-ID: <1877384224.1702963.1402857121411.JavaMail.zimbra@inf.utfsm.cl> Hi I have problems with list of lists.. I have a setup of mailman 2.1.9 and I have a list of lists like: ----- member-students | members-| | ----- members-stuff and more members-* My question is: How can the sublists accept all the post from list "members" without hold the messages ?? Example: I want to sent a message to "members" list, "members" accept it and all the subscriptors of subslists automatically get the message. I think something with 'accept_these_nonmembers' but don't know what because the messages don't have the sender name "members at whatever". thanks!! -- From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 16 18:58:36 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:58:36 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] list of lists mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: <1877384224.1702963.1402857121411.JavaMail.zimbra@inf.utfsm.cl> References: <1877384224.1702963.1402857121411.JavaMail.zimbra@inf.utfsm.cl> Message-ID: <539F223C.1000309@msapiro.net> On 06/15/2014 11:32 AM, Gonzalo Moya wrote: > > My question is: > How can the sublists accept all the post from list "members" without hold the messages ?? See the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From bryan.wright at rigaku.com Mon Jun 16 19:10:05 2014 From: bryan.wright at rigaku.com (Bryan Wright) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:10:05 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <6eaebf70abd645b8b7fa08998a77fa59@592194-Exch1.rac.local> Could we not send the message out as usual, then on a p=reject bounce, forward the original message (so it comes from the mailing list) along with an explanation of what is transpiring to the bounced user, plus to the message author? Maybe include a note suggesting the author change mail providers. This way if the message author's domain causes 20 bounces, they get 20 messages letting them know they need to change mail providers. -----Original Message----- From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+bryan.wright=rigaku.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Stephen J. Turnbull Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 7:42 AM To: Sparr Cc: mailman-users at python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? Sparr writes: > Modifying the messages bothers me (and a lot of other people, as > indicated by the last dozen times similar conversations have been had, > about changing Reply-To and From and Subject and ...) and should be > the last resort. Well, actually the point is that lists need to do fewer modifications than they already do. DMARC has two tests, one for the domain in From being equivalent to the IP of the SMTP client, which will fail unless the author is at the mailing list's domain, and a DKIM signature. The signature will survive and be valid at the recipient in the case that the message is completely unmodified. However, mailing lists typically make one or more of the following modifications: add a list tag to the Subject field, add a header or footer to the body, remove prohibited MIME bodies (.exes, text/html, etc), or transform text/html to text/plain. Any of those will cause the usual DKIM signature to be invalidated. DMARC-using domains typically sign From (required by the DKIM protocol), To, Cc, Subject, and the whole body (effectively including the end of the message, preventing appended material such as a footer). My personal opinion is that these traditional changes are expected and desired by mailing list subscribers, and that posting from "p=reject" domains is thereby a violation of the policy of the "p=reject" domain, and places other subscribers at risk. I think mailing lists should reject such posts (if the signature is valid), or silently discard them (if it is not). However, subscribers from those domains are unlikely to agree .... ------------------------------------------------------ Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/bryan.wright%40rigaku.com From phanh at canby.k12.or.us Mon Jun 16 19:38:31 2014 From: phanh at canby.k12.or.us (Hung Phan) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 10:38:31 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Determine listserv that a member belongs to Message-ID: As a user, one can authenticate and see the listserv groups that one belongs to. Is there a similar feature for admin? Thank you, From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 16 19:46:25 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 10:46:25 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: <6eaebf70abd645b8b7fa08998a77fa59@592194-Exch1.rac.local> References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <6eaebf70abd645b8b7fa08998a77fa59@592194-Exch1.rac.local> Message-ID: <539F2D71.1080000@msapiro.net> On 06/16/2014 10:10 AM, Bryan Wright wrote: > Could we not send the message out as usual, then on a p=reject bounce, forward the original message (so it comes from the mailing list) along with an explanation of what is transpiring to the bounced user, plus to the message author? Maybe include a note suggesting the author change mail providers. This way if the message author's domain causes 20 bounces, they get 20 messages letting them know they need to change mail providers. Aside from the fact that this would be a real kludge to implement, inundating the message author who is in a very real sense an innocent victim of his ESPs policy with this kind of backscatter is unacceptable. Note that on April 4, one post to one of my lists From: a yahoo.com address which was sent to only 236 individual message subscribers was bounced by 90 of them. Of those 90 bounces, I'm not sure how many I could identify reliably as DMARC bounces without just assuming they were because the From: domain published a DMARC p=reject policy. But, my point is close to 40% of the list member's ESPs honored the p=reject policy. YMMV, but that's a lot of extra handling. While the idea of identifying a DMARC bounce and "forwarding" the original post to the bounced recipient wrapped in some boilerplate about the need to do so has some appeal, I think the implementation would be too messy to contemplate. If you wish to try, the code is at aka 'bzr branch lp:mailman/2.1'. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 16 20:01:40 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 11:01:40 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Determine listserv that a member belongs to In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539F3104.3020300@msapiro.net> On 06/16/2014 10:38 AM, Hung Phan wrote: > As a user, one can authenticate and see the listserv groups that one > belongs to. Is there a similar feature for admin? This list is for Mailman users, not Listserv(r) users. See That said, and assuming you really mean Mailman and not Listserv(r), what is your question? If you mean is there a way for a list admin to see what other lists in this installation a user is subscribed to, no. The site admin can go to the user's options page and list the user's other subscriptions if the site has set 'ALLOW_SITE_ADMIN_COOKIES = Yes' in mm_cfg.py, and the site admin can use Mailman's bin/find_member command to find the lists a user is subscribed to, but an ordinary list owner can't do these. If you mean is there a way for a list admin to see what other lists she is an admin of, see the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From fmouse at fmp.com Mon Jun 16 21:35:11 2014 From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:35:11 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Determine listserv that a member belongs to In-Reply-To: <539F3104.3020300@msapiro.net> References: <539F3104.3020300@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <1402947311.24047.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com> On Mon, 2014-06-16 at 11:01 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > This list is for Mailman users, not Listserv(r) users. See > > > That said, and assuming you really mean Mailman and not Listserv(r), > what is your question? > > If you mean is there a way for a list admin to see what other lists in > this installation a user is subscribed to, no. The site admin can go to > the user's options page and list the user's other subscriptions if the > site has set 'ALLOW_SITE_ADMIN_COOKIES = Yes' in mm_cfg.py, and the site > admin can use Mailman's bin/find_member command to find the lists a user > is subscribed to, but an ordinary list owner can't do these. > > If you mean is there a way for a list admin to see what other lists she > is an admin of, see the FAQ at . > A lot of creative jiggery-pokery can be done using ~mailman/bin/withlist at a CLI prompt. Without going into details (which are very detailed) you can obtain a list of lists on the server using Mailman.Site.get_listnames() and search for subscribers within each element of the returned list of lists. This stuff can be scripted and run from a web UI if you wish. Some knowledge of Python is necessary, otherwise YMMV :) -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com | From heller at deepsoft.com Mon Jun 16 21:49:59 2014 From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:49:59 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Determine listserv that a member belongs to In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201406161949.s5GJnx8Z005528@sharky2.deepsoft.com> At Mon, 16 Jun 2014 10:38:31 -0700 Hung Phan wrote: > > As a user, one can authenticate and see the listserv groups that one > belongs to. Is there a similar feature for admin? There is a shell command that does that: /usr/lib/mailman/bin/find_member I don't know if there is a web interface to this command. > > Thank you, > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com > > -- Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / heller at deepsoft.com Deepwoods Software -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments From pshute at nuw.org.au Mon Jun 16 21:57:31 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 05:57:31 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: <6eaebf70abd645b8b7fa08998a77fa59@592194-Exch1.rac.local> References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <6eaebf70abd645b8b7fa08998a77fa59@592194-Exch1.rac.local> Message-ID: > On 17 Jun 2014, at 3:25 am, "Bryan Wright" wrote: > > Could we not send the message out as usual, then on a p=reject bounce, forward the original message (so it comes from the mailing list) along with an explanation of what is transpiring to the bounced user, plus to the message author? Maybe include a note suggesting the author change mail providers. This way if the message author's domain causes 20 bounces, they get 20 messages letting them know they need to change mail providers. I don't understand what you mean by "plus to the message author". Isn't the author the same person as the "bounced user"? Do you mean the user whose server bounced it? If so, given that we can predict which messages are likely to bounce this way (but not which recipient servers), why not just forward (from the list) these messages to the whole list (including the author), along with the explanation and avoid the bouncing? That way the author has the incentive of getting rid of these accompanying explanations to change addresses. I'd forward the messages quoted, not as attachments. Peter Shute From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 16 22:27:34 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:27:34 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Determine listserv that a member belongs to In-Reply-To: <201406161949.s5GJnx8Z005528@sharky2.deepsoft.com> References: <201406161949.s5GJnx8Z005528@sharky2.deepsoft.com> Message-ID: <539F5336.3090800@msapiro.net> On 06/16/2014 12:49 PM, Robert Heller wrote: > > There is a shell command that does that: > > /usr/lib/mailman/bin/find_member > > I don't know if there is a web interface to this command. There's not. A site could implement one - see the FAQ at - but this is not a capability that should be made generally available to a list admin or even more widely. It's a privacy concern. Just because I happen to subscribe to your list doesn't mean you should be able to know what other lists I might subscribe to. That's why only site admins (people who have sufficient access to the Mailman installation on the server) have this capability. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From fmouse at fmp.com Mon Jun 16 22:45:17 2014 From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:45:17 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Determine listserv that a member belongs to In-Reply-To: <539F5336.3090800@msapiro.net> References: <201406161949.s5GJnx8Z005528@sharky2.deepsoft.com> <539F5336.3090800@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <1402951517.24047.58.camel@pudina.fmp.com> On Mon, 2014-06-16 at 13:27 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > It's a privacy concern. Just because I happen to subscribe to your list > doesn't mean you should be able to know what other lists I might > subscribe to. That's why only site admins (people who have sufficient > access to the Mailman installation on the server) have this capability. If you have shell access on a Mailman host you can pretty much do as you wish, including circumventing a lot of Mailman's privacy walls, all without having system root access. This is both good and bad, obviously, and is mostly an argument for being cautious about who has terminal access on a server running Mailman. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com | From heller at deepsoft.com Mon Jun 16 22:47:56 2014 From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 16:47:56 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Determine listserv that a member belongs to In-Reply-To: <539F5336.3090800@msapiro.net> References: <201406161949.s5GJnx8Z005528@sharky2.deepsoft.com> <539F5336.3090800@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <201406162047.s5GKluev007740@sharky2.deepsoft.com> At Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:27:34 -0700 Mark Sapiro wrote: > > On 06/16/2014 12:49 PM, Robert Heller wrote: > > > > There is a shell command that does that: > > > > /usr/lib/mailman/bin/find_member > > > > I don't know if there is a web interface to this command. > > > There's not. A site could implement one - see the FAQ at > - but this is not a capability that should > be made generally available to a list admin or even more widely. > > It's a privacy concern. Just because I happen to subscribe to your list > doesn't mean you should be able to know what other lists I might > subscribe to. That's why only site admins (people who have sufficient > access to the Mailman installation on the server) have this capability. Right. I've found it useful when some yahoo sends a message to 'webmaster', asking to be unsubscribed from an *unspecificed* E-Mail list. Either they are assuming that there is only one list or something. (Or they are using a braindead E-Mail client/service when they replied to their monthly reminder message and did not quote the monthly reminder message.) > -- Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / heller at deepsoft.com Deepwoods Software -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 16 23:00:38 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:00:38 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Determine listserv that a member belongs to In-Reply-To: <1402951517.24047.58.camel@pudina.fmp.com> References: <201406161949.s5GJnx8Z005528@sharky2.deepsoft.com> <539F5336.3090800@msapiro.net> <1402951517.24047.58.camel@pudina.fmp.com> Message-ID: <539F5AF6.8010907@msapiro.net> On 06/16/2014 01:45 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > If you have shell access on a Mailman host you can pretty much do as you > wish, including circumventing a lot of Mailman's privacy walls, all > without having system root access. This is both good and bad, > obviously, and is mostly an argument for being cautious about who has > terminal access on a server running Mailman. You still need sufficient access. E.g., config.pck files are not world readable, at least in a normal install, so you need to be root or in Mailman's group to access list information. Also, we tell you how to protect archives/private/ from non-root/mailman access by local users. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Mon Jun 16 23:01:46 2014 From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:01:46 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership Management PHP UI Message-ID: Hi, I'm attempting to re-create the "Membership Management" using PHP. More specifically, I want to be able to view, and modify all column data associated with each subscriber in the same way the default Mailman UI does (ex. Name, Email, MOD, Hide, Nomail, Ack, Not Metoo, NoDupes, Digest, Plain, Language) The purpose of this request is that I'm working on a PHP based admin UI which has company's look and feel, limits exposure to select options, add a few custom features, and potentially allows management of multiple lists from a single UI. Thanks in advance! Best Regards, Peter Knowles TPN Solutions From fmouse at fmp.com Mon Jun 16 23:05:31 2014 From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 16:05:31 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Determine listserv that a member belongs to In-Reply-To: <539F5AF6.8010907@msapiro.net> References: <201406161949.s5GJnx8Z005528@sharky2.deepsoft.com> <539F5336.3090800@msapiro.net> <1402951517.24047.58.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <539F5AF6.8010907@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <1402952731.24047.73.camel@pudina.fmp.com> On Mon, 2014-06-16 at 14:00 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/16/2014 01:45 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > > > If you have shell access on a Mailman host you can pretty much do as you > > wish, including circumventing a lot of Mailman's privacy walls, all > > without having system root access. This is both good and bad, > > obviously, and is mostly an argument for being cautious about who has > > terminal access on a server running Mailman. > You still need sufficient access. E.g., config.pck files are not world > readable, at least in a normal install, so you need to be root or in > Mailman's group to access list information. Also, we tell you how to > protect archives/private/ from non-root/mailman access by local users. > You're doubtless right, Mark. I did a cursory test here and could see whatever I wanted to see, but I do note that my shell user is in the mailman group, which probably explains why I could access the information. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com | From fmouse at fmp.com Mon Jun 16 23:18:33 2014 From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 16:18:33 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership Management PHP UI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1402953513.24047.80.camel@pudina.fmp.com> On Mon, 2014-06-16 at 14:01 -0700, Peter Knowles wrote: > I'm attempting to re-create the "Membership Management" using PHP. More > specifically, I want to be able to view, and modify all column data > associated with each subscriber in the same way the default Mailman UI does > (ex. Name, Email, MOD, Hide, Nomail, Ack, Not Metoo, NoDupes, Digest, > Plain, Language) > > The purpose of this request is that I'm working on a PHP based admin UI > which has company's look and feel, limits exposure to select options, add a > few custom features, and potentially allows management of multiple lists > from a single UI. I do a lot of PHP based system management from authenticated web UIs which I've written. The general approach I've taken has been to create a set of python scripts to do the actual work, and then call them as needed from my PHP script using exec() and making ample use of the &$output and &$return_var arguments. Mailman list administration has the advantage in this in that it's also written in python. Make sure the user that your PHP script runs as is in the mailman group. You can make very good use of ~mailman/bin/withlist -r to do pretty much whatever you need to do. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com | From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 16 23:38:56 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:38:56 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership Management PHP UI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539F63F0.2010400@msapiro.net> On 06/16/2014 02:01 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: > Hi, > > I'm attempting to re-create the "Membership Management" using PHP. More > specifically, I want to be able to view, and modify all column data > associated with each subscriber in the same way the default Mailman UI does > (ex. Name, Email, MOD, Hide, Nomail, Ack, Not Metoo, NoDupes, Digest, > Plain, Language) Do you want to implement this capability with your own PHP pages or do you want your PHP pages to GET the admin/listname/members page, parse it and display the results in its own way, and POST changes back to the Mailman web UI? I.e. do you want to work through the existing Mailman web UI or bypass it? If you want to work through the existing UI, see the FAQ at which I'm sure will raise more questions. If you want to bypass it, you'll probably need to implement some helper scripts (Python scripts using Mailman methods do do the work) to do the actual data retrieval and updates, and invoke those from your PHP pages. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Mon Jun 16 23:50:52 2014 From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:50:52 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership Management PHP UI In-Reply-To: <539F63F0.2010400@msapiro.net> References: <539F63F0.2010400@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Mark, Preferably I'd like to transparently issue a command to Mailman backend script(s). That is, my PHP UI would make localized changes to queue (for scheduled changes) or directly via the "exec" (or similar) command (for real-time changes). Essentially, we want to be in a position eventually to completely cripple the admin UI shipped with Mailman. One of the problems that I face is, I'm not a Python developer, so if existing Mailman python scripts can manage the "read/write" functions in order to extract things and update things that'd be great. *** I'm already familiar with the "config_list" script which my "audit" script uses to maintain user/global config options we do not allow our users to maintain themselves. (that is, technically a user can override a setting we maintain currently, but within minutes the settings are reverted via our automated audit process. *** Best Regards, Peter Knowles TPN Solutions Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Phone: 604-229-0715 Skype: tpnsupport Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/16/2014 02:01 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I'm attempting to re-create the "Membership Management" using PHP. More > > specifically, I want to be able to view, and modify all column data > > associated with each subscriber in the same way the default Mailman UI > does > > (ex. Name, Email, MOD, Hide, Nomail, Ack, Not Metoo, NoDupes, Digest, > > Plain, Language) > > > Do you want to implement this capability with your own PHP pages or do > you want your PHP pages to GET the admin/listname/members page, parse it > and display the results in its own way, and POST changes back to the > Mailman web UI? > > I.e. do you want to work through the existing Mailman web UI or bypass it? > > If you want to work through the existing UI, see the FAQ at > which I'm sure will raise more questions. > > If you want to bypass it, you'll probably need to implement some helper > scripts (Python scripts using Mailman methods do do the work) to do the > actual data retrieval and updates, and invoke those from your PHP pages. > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pknowles%40tpnsolutions.com > From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Mon Jun 16 23:54:39 2014 From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:54:39 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership Management PHP UI In-Reply-To: References: <539F63F0.2010400@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Mark, I'm also considering the use of the PEAR module Services_Mailman, which appears to interact with the Mailman default admin UI behind the scenes. This options may be feasible in the short term. Are you aware if this works with the current 2.x.x branch of Mailman without issue? Best Regards, Peter Knowles TPN Solutions Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Phone: 604-229-0715 Skype: tpnsupport Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: > Mark, > > Preferably I'd like to transparently issue a command to Mailman backend > script(s). That is, my PHP UI would make localized changes to queue (for > scheduled changes) or directly via the "exec" (or similar) command (for > real-time changes). > > Essentially, we want to be in a position eventually to completely cripple > the admin UI shipped with Mailman. > > One of the problems that I face is, I'm not a Python developer, so if > existing Mailman python scripts can manage the "read/write" functions in > order to extract things and update things that'd be great. > > *** I'm already familiar with the "config_list" script which my "audit" > script uses to maintain user/global config options we do not allow our > users to maintain themselves. (that is, technically a user can override a > setting we maintain currently, but within minutes the settings are reverted > via our automated audit process. *** > > > Best Regards, > Peter Knowles > TPN Solutions > > Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com > Phone: 604-229-0715 > Skype: tpnsupport > Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> On 06/16/2014 02:01 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > I'm attempting to re-create the "Membership Management" using PHP. More >> > specifically, I want to be able to view, and modify all column data >> > associated with each subscriber in the same way the default Mailman UI >> does >> > (ex. Name, Email, MOD, Hide, Nomail, Ack, Not Metoo, NoDupes, Digest, >> > Plain, Language) >> >> >> Do you want to implement this capability with your own PHP pages or do >> you want your PHP pages to GET the admin/listname/members page, parse it >> and display the results in its own way, and POST changes back to the >> Mailman web UI? >> >> I.e. do you want to work through the existing Mailman web UI or bypass it? >> >> If you want to work through the existing UI, see the FAQ at >> which I'm sure will raise more questions. >> >> If you want to bypass it, you'll probably need to implement some helper >> scripts (Python scripts using Mailman methods do do the work) to do the >> actual data retrieval and updates, and invoke those from your PHP pages. >> >> -- >> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, >> San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users >> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 >> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 >> Searchable Archives: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ >> Unsubscribe: >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pknowles%40tpnsolutions.com >> > > From fmouse at fmp.com Tue Jun 17 00:45:24 2014 From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:45:24 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership Management PHP UI In-Reply-To: References: <539F63F0.2010400@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <1402958724.46454.21.camel@pudina.fmp.com> On Mon, 2014-06-16 at 14:50 -0700, Peter Knowles wrote: > Mark, > > Preferably I'd like to transparently issue a command to Mailman backend > script(s). That is, my PHP UI would make localized changes to queue (for > scheduled changes) or directly via the "exec" (or similar) command (for > real-time changes). The ~mailman/bin/export.py script outputs full list information in XML format. PHP has XML parsing capabilities which can probably pull the information you want from the output. Alternatively, running ~mailman/bin/dumpdb on the config.pck file for the list will provide you with much the same information, albeit parsing the information may be somewhat more difficult. This gives you read capabilities. Write capabilities are another matter. > Essentially, we want to be in a position eventually to completely cripple > the admin UI shipped with Mailman. Might this also disallow the use of the Services_Mailman PEAR module? > One of the problems that I face is, I'm not a Python developer, so if > existing Mailman python scripts can manage the "read/write" functions in > order to extract things and update things that'd be great. Peter, given the complexity of parsing the necessary information from the output of existing scripts, and the limited options with the existing scripts for inputting per-subscriber information, OR the complexity of interacting with the membership web-UI, any time you spend learning basic python scripting might well be a more effective use of your development efforts. Python is perhaps the most syntactically logical and easy to use of all the interpreted languages I've worked with, which includes a good number of them, and scripting of list membership management functions and I/O into a workable PHP-generated web UI would be almost trivial given decent PHP and related web development skills, once you have a basic understanding of the python code required to read and write the atoms of information which make up the subscriber database. It's not really all that complex, and you don't have to become a python expert to do it. If you understand PHP scripting and OO programming you're 2/3 of the way there. I know that Mark is the go-to guy on all things having to do with Mailman code, but as far as integrating system administrative functions into a web UI, I've had a lot of experience on my own hosting service, so I'm not exactly shooting in the dark here. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt :) > *** I'm already familiar with the "config_list" script which my "audit" > script uses to maintain user/global config options we do not allow our > users to maintain themselves. (that is, technically a user can override a > setting we maintain currently, but within minutes the settings are reverted > via our automated audit process. *** config_list doesn't handle per_subscriber settings. > On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > > > On 06/16/2014 02:01 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I'm attempting to re-create the "Membership Management" using PHP. More > > > specifically, I want to be able to view, and modify all column data > > > associated with each subscriber in the same way the default Mailman UI > > does > > > (ex. Name, Email, MOD, Hide, Nomail, Ack, Not Metoo, NoDupes, Digest, > > > Plain, Language) > > > > > > Do you want to implement this capability with your own PHP pages or do > > you want your PHP pages to GET the admin/listname/members page, parse it > > and display the results in its own way, and POST changes back to the > > Mailman web UI? > > > > I.e. do you want to work through the existing Mailman web UI or bypass it? > > > > If you want to work through the existing UI, see the FAQ at > > which I'm sure will raise more questions. > > > > If you want to bypass it, you'll probably need to implement some helper > > scripts (Python scripts using Mailman methods do do the work) to do the > > actual data retrieval and updates, and invoke those from your PHP pages. > > > > -- > > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > > Searchable Archives: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > > Unsubscribe: > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pknowles%40tpnsolutions.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse%40fmp.com -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com | From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Tue Jun 17 00:54:16 2014 From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:54:16 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership Management PHP UI In-Reply-To: <1402958724.46454.21.camel@pudina.fmp.com> References: <539F63F0.2010400@msapiro.net> <1402958724.46454.21.camel@pudina.fmp.com> Message-ID: Lindsay, I didn't mean to come off as completely ignoring your suggestions. As for the temporary solution, yes this would require that the existing UI continue to be running in order to work, which as mentioned may be a "temporary" immediate solution while I work to gain the required knowledge. You had mentioned something about "withlist" being the script which may can do pretty much everything. Could this script be used for "updating" subscriber settings, and if so could you give an example? Best Regards, Peter Knowles TPN Solutions Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com Phone: 604-229-0715 Skype: tpnsupport Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > On Mon, 2014-06-16 at 14:50 -0700, Peter Knowles wrote: > > Mark, > > > > Preferably I'd like to transparently issue a command to Mailman backend > > script(s). That is, my PHP UI would make localized changes to queue (for > > scheduled changes) or directly via the "exec" (or similar) command (for > > real-time changes). > > The ~mailman/bin/export.py script outputs full list information in XML > format. PHP has XML parsing capabilities which can probably pull the > information you want from the output. Alternatively, running > ~mailman/bin/dumpdb on the config.pck file for the list will provide you > with much the same information, albeit parsing the information may be > somewhat more difficult. > > This gives you read capabilities. Write capabilities are another > matter. > > > Essentially, we want to be in a position eventually to completely cripple > > the admin UI shipped with Mailman. > > Might this also disallow the use of the Services_Mailman PEAR module? > > > One of the problems that I face is, I'm not a Python developer, so if > > existing Mailman python scripts can manage the "read/write" functions in > > order to extract things and update things that'd be great. > > Peter, given the complexity of parsing the necessary information from > the output of existing scripts, and the limited options with the > existing scripts for inputting per-subscriber information, OR the > complexity of interacting with the membership web-UI, any time you spend > learning basic python scripting might well be a more effective use of > your development efforts. Python is perhaps the most syntactically > logical and easy to use of all the interpreted languages I've worked > with, which includes a good number of them, and scripting of list > membership management functions and I/O into a workable PHP-generated > web UI would be almost trivial given decent PHP and related web > development skills, once you have a basic understanding of the python > code required to read and write the atoms of information which make up > the subscriber database. It's not really all that complex, and you > don't have to become a python expert to do it. If you understand PHP > scripting and OO programming you're 2/3 of the way there. > > I know that Mark is the go-to guy on all things having to do with > Mailman code, but as far as integrating system administrative functions > into a web UI, I've had a lot of experience on my own hosting service, > so I'm not exactly shooting in the dark here. Been there, done that, > bought the T-shirt :) > > > *** I'm already familiar with the "config_list" script which my "audit" > > script uses to maintain user/global config options we do not allow our > > users to maintain themselves. (that is, technically a user can override a > > setting we maintain currently, but within minutes the settings are > reverted > > via our automated audit process. *** > > config_list doesn't handle per_subscriber settings. > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > > > > > On 06/16/2014 02:01 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I'm attempting to re-create the "Membership Management" using PHP. > More > > > > specifically, I want to be able to view, and modify all column data > > > > associated with each subscriber in the same way the default Mailman > UI > > > does > > > > (ex. Name, Email, MOD, Hide, Nomail, Ack, Not Metoo, NoDupes, Digest, > > > > Plain, Language) > > > > > > > > > Do you want to implement this capability with your own PHP pages or do > > > you want your PHP pages to GET the admin/listname/members page, parse > it > > > and display the results in its own way, and POST changes back to the > > > Mailman web UI? > > > > > > I.e. do you want to work through the existing Mailman web UI or bypass > it? > > > > > > If you want to work through the existing UI, see the FAQ at > > > which I'm sure will raise more > questions. > > > > > > If you want to bypass it, you'll probably need to implement some helper > > > scripts (Python scripts using Mailman methods do do the work) to do the > > > actual data retrieval and updates, and invoke those from your PHP > pages. > > > > > > -- > > > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > > > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > > > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > > > Searchable Archives: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pknowles%40tpnsolutions.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > > Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse%40fmp.com > > -- > Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" > FMP Computer Services | > 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie > http://www.fmp.com | > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pknowles%40tpnsolutions.com > From mark at msapiro.net Tue Jun 17 01:07:51 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 16:07:51 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership Management PHP UI In-Reply-To: References: <539F63F0.2010400@msapiro.net> <1402958724.46454.21.camel@pudina.fmp.com> Message-ID: <539F78C7.9020402@msapiro.net> On 06/16/2014 03:54 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: > Lindsay, ... > > You had mentioned something about "withlist" being the script which may can > do pretty much everything. Could this script be used for "updating" > subscriber settings, and if so could you give an example? Actually, both withlist and config_list can do anything including irrevocably breaking your lists if you don't know what you're doing. See for some examples. These are all scripts, some withlist and some stand alone, for doing various Mailman tasks. They exist as a resource for people who want to use them as is, but mainly they exist as example of how to do things. withlist is a framework for passing a list object or all lists objects sequentially to a script and taking care of a bit of housekeeping. Withlist can also be invoked as an interactive Python shell with access to a list object and Mailman's Python API. config_list is normally just given some input like attribute = value to update list attributes, but it works by executing the input file as a Python script and then examining the returned namespace to see what was done. It also passes the list object to the execiting input, so the input can actually do any legal Python thing with that list object. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Jun 17 02:45:46 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:45:46 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership Management PHP UI In-Reply-To: References: <539F63F0.2010400@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <539F8FBA.9040900@msapiro.net> On 06/16/2014 02:54 PM, Peter Knowles wrote: > Mark, > > I'm also considering the use of the PEAR module Services_Mailman, which > appears to interact with the Mailman default admin UI behind the scenes. > This options may be feasible in the short term. Are you aware if this > works with the current 2.x.x branch of Mailman without issue? I'm not specifically aware of what does or doesn't work, but I've glanced at the docs and it doesn't seem to use anything that hasn't been stable for over a decade. It does however appear to rely on the availability of the Membership Management... -> Membership List, Mass Subscription and Mass Removal pages for listing, subscribing and removing members and the user options page for setting user options. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Jun 17 03:18:41 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 10:18:41 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership Management PHP UI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87lhswjpu6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Peter Knowles writes: > I'm attempting to re-create the "Membership Management" using PHP. More > specifically, I want to be able to view, and modify all column data > associated with each subscriber in the same way the default Mailman UI does > (ex. Name, Email, MOD, Hide, Nomail, Ack, Not Metoo, NoDupes, Digest, > Plain, Language) It shouldn't be hard to use the bin/list-members script as a skeleton and add any information from Mailman/MemberAdaptor.py that you in addition, and translate that to (eg) CSV output for use by your PHP scripts. OTOH, you might want to just go directly to Mailman 3, which has a REST (over HTTP) interface for this information. AFAIK for your use case Mailman 3 is completely usable (what we're missing at the moment is well-integrated totally sweet archiving and admin interfaces, but you're obviously planning to provide the latter yourself and I bet you already have 90% of the former for the same reasons). The place to discuss the MM3 option is mailman-developers at python.org, although several of us are here. The folks who develop the admin and archive interfaces are mostly not, and they may have interesting hints about glitches and gotchas in the APIs you'll need to use.. From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Jun 17 03:36:49 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 10:36:49 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: <539F2D71.1080000@msapiro.net> References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <6eaebf70abd645b8b7fa08998a77fa59@592194-Exch1.rac.local> <539F2D71.1080000@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <87k38gjozy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mark Sapiro writes: > While the idea of identifying a DMARC bounce and "forwarding" the > original post to the bounced recipient wrapped in some boilerplate about > the need to do so has some appeal, I think the implementation would be > too messy to contemplate. If you wish to try, the code is at > aka 'bzr branch > lp:mailman/2.1'. For wrapping the message, the logic in dmarc_moderation_action is much more efficient. It checks for DMARC p=reject at the Author Domain, and then does something. Wrapping the message so that the "outside" message is "From:" the list and the inside message is the original (modified per list policy) is one option. I'm not sure if there's any way to specify an explanatory message, but it would be easy to add such an option. Note that for some lists (the ones I manage at XEmacs, for example) almost none of the members honor p=reject, and for others 95% or more of the subscribers are at GMail, Yahoo!, Hotmail, or AOL, which all (more or less, you may get lucky with list traffic to GMail) honor p=reject. If you have few enough Yahoo! and AOL subscribers, a direct appeal to them to use different posting addresses (followed up a couple weeks later by a ban on posting from those domains) might be very effective. (For example, at least some parts of the Japanese government did this in mid-April, at which point the 6 of 15 of the students on my list who had @yahoo addresses simply stopped using them for mail, although a couple of them still need them for Internet shopping.) From mark at msapiro.net Tue Jun 17 04:29:42 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:29:42 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: <87k38gjozy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <6eaebf70abd645b8b7fa08998a77fa59@592194-Exch1.rac.local> <539F2D71.1080000@msapiro.net> <87k38gjozy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <539FA816.2090608@msapiro.net> On 06/16/2014 06:36 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Mark Sapiro writes: > > > While the idea of identifying a DMARC bounce and "forwarding" the > > original post to the bounced recipient wrapped in some boilerplate about > > the need to do so has some appeal, I think the implementation would be > > too messy to contemplate. If you wish to try, the code is at > > aka 'bzr branch > > lp:mailman/2.1'. > > For wrapping the message, the logic in dmarc_moderation_action is much > more efficient. It checks for DMARC p=reject at the Author Domain, > and then does something. Wrapping the message so that the "outside" > message is "From:" the list and the inside message is the original > (modified per list policy) is one option. I'm not sure if there's any > way to specify an explanatory message, but it would be easy to add > such an option. Yes, what Stephen says is correct. It would be a simple matter to add say a dmarc_wrapped_message_text field which text if provided would be added as a separate MIME text/plain part along with the wrapped message when the message was wrapped due to dmarc_moderation_action. What I was saying was "too messy to contemplate" was the notion of sending the post with the original From: to all recipients and then resending a wrapped message only to those recipients that bounce the original. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From pshute at nuw.org.au Tue Jun 17 04:32:02 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 12:32:02 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ignore DMARC bounces? In-Reply-To: <539FA816.2090608@msapiro.net> References: <36268997-76D1-4153-9061-8D3599C29E4A@nuw.org.au> <871turoe75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <6eaebf70abd645b8b7fa08998a77fa59@592194-Exch1.rac.local> <539F2D71.1080000@msapiro.net> <87k38gjozy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>,<539FA816.2090608@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Mark Sapiro > For wrapping the message, the logic in dmarc_moderation_action is much > more efficient. It checks for DMARC p=reject at the Author Domain, > and then does something. Wrapping the message so that the "outside" > message is "From:" the list and the inside message is the original > (modified per list policy) is one option. I'm not sure if there's any > way to specify an explanatory message, but it would be easy to add > such an option. Yes, what Stephen says is correct. It would be a simple matter to add say a dmarc_wrapped_message_text field which text if provided would be added as a separate MIME text/plain part along with the wrapped message when the message was wrapped due to dmarc_moderation_action. I like the idea of the explanatory message, and it would be great if there was an option for that. As well as explaining why a particular message is being treated differently, I'd like to be able to warn users not to simply Reply to the message expecting the reply to go to the original message's author. Peter Shute From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Jun 18 18:51:29 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 01:51:29 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disabling SELinux In-Reply-To: References: <53992E9C.7070907@msapiro.net> <5399F7AD.5020107@msapiro.net> <539A392E.3070001@msapiro.net> <539B3CA1.9080203@msapiro.net> <539B58F5.8040909@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <87wqcei2jy.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> I thought I sent this but my MUA disagrees.... A user (one among many) writes: > Mark, > Good straw to grasp at. I thought SElinux had already been disabled but it > hadn't. It seems to be working now. Do we have better advice than just "disable SELinux" to offer? I ask because "solving" the DMARC "problem" seems to involve trust of Mediators (the technical RFC term for middlemen like Mailman) by Author Domains (RFC-ese for domains with DMARC policies about verifying From:). Asking upstream to trust sites which have deliberately disabled security features seems like poor strategy at best. Note: reply-to set to Mailman-Developers. Please follow up there. If you want to follow but not subscribe to MM-D, perhap the archives are an option: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/. Steve From john at dragunsigns.com Wed Jun 18 15:34:19 2014 From: john at dragunsigns.com (John Dragun) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 09:34:19 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] 500 errors with certain domains Message-ID: <53A1955B.2040407@dragunsigns.com> I have been running mailman on a Freebsd server for about 10 years. I am now migrating to a bigger server running Centos. The problems I have been having I have been able to work through with all the help posted in these lists and forums, but I am at a point where I am stuck. If i connect via my ip address: 216.xxx.xxx.xxx/mailman/listinfo, I get in, I see no lists even though I made a mailman list as public, I can the got to the admin page, still do not see the list, but I can go to 216.xxx.xxx.xxx/mailman/admin/mailman and log in. Once there if I go to post a message in the waiting for moderator, when I hit the save changes button, the url reverts to http://draguncomputers/mailman/admin/mailman and I get a 500 error. I have virtual hosts, and only one uses the list. System CentOS 6 with Cpanel. Defaults.py import os def seconds(s): return s def minutes(m): return m * 60 def hours(h): return h * 60 * 60 def days(d): return d * 60 * 60 * 24 # Some convenient constants try: True, False except NameError: True = 1 False = 0 Yes = yes = On = on = True No = no = Off = off = False ##### # General system-wide defaults ##### # Should image logos be used? Set this to 0 to disable image logos from "our # sponsors" and just use textual links instead (this will also disable the # shortcut "favicon"). Otherwise, this should contain the URL base path to # the logo images (and must contain the trailing slash).. If you want to # disable Mailman's logo footer altogther, hack # Mailman/htmlformat.py:MailmanLogo(), which also contains the hardcoded links # and image names. IMAGE_LOGOS = '/img-sys/' # The name of the Mailman favicon SHORTCUT_ICON = 'mm-icon.png' # Don't change MAILMAN_URL, unless you want to point it at one of the mirrors. MAILMAN_URL = 'http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/index.html' #MAILMAN_URL = 'http://www.list.org/' #MAILMAN_URL = 'http://mailman.sf.net/' # Mailman needs to know about (at least) two fully-qualified domain names # (fqdn); 1) the hostname used in your urls, and 2) the hostname used in email # addresses for your domain. For example, if people visit your Mailman system # with "http://www.dom.ain/mailman" then your url fqdn is "www.dom.ain", and # if people send mail to your system via "yourlist at dom.ain" then your email # fqdn is "dom.ain". DEFAULT_URL_HOST controls the former, and # DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST controls the latter. Mailman also needs to know how to # map from one to the other (this is especially important if you're running # with virtual domains). You use "add_virtualhost(urlfqdn, emailfqdn)" to add # new mappings. # # If you don't need to change DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_URL_HOST in your # mm_cfg.py, then you're done; the default mapping is added automatically. If # however you change either variable in your mm_cfg.py, then be sure to also # include the following: # # add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST) # # because otherwise the default mappings won't be correct. DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'draguncomputers.com' DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'draguncomputers.com' DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/' # DEFAULT_HOST_NAME has been replaced with DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST, however some # sites may have the former in their mm_cfg.py files. If so, we'll believe # that, otherwise we'll believe DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST. Same for DEFAULT_URL. DEFAULT_HOST_NAME = None DEFAULT_URL = None HOME_PAGE = 'index.html' MAILMAN_SITE_LIST = 'mailman' # Normally when a site administrator authenticates to a web page with the site # password, they get a cookie which authorizes them as the list admin. It # makes me nervous to hand out site auth cookies because if this cookie is # cracked or intercepted, the intruder will have access to every list on the # site. OTOH, it's dang handy to not have to re-authenticate to every list on # the site. Set this value to Yes to allow site admin cookies. ALLOW_SITE_ADMIN_COOKIES = No # If the following is set to a non-zero value, web authentication cookies will # expire that many seconds following their last use. AUTHENTICATION_COOKIE_LIFETIME = 0 # Form lifetime is set against Cross Site Request Forgery. FORM_LIFETIME = hours(1) # If the following is set to a non-empty string, this string in combination # with the time, list name and the IP address of the requestor is used to # create a hidden hash as part of the subscribe form on the listinfo page. # This hash is checked upon form submission and the subscribe fails if it # doesn't match. I.e. the form posted must be first retrieved from the # listinfo CGI by the same IP that posts it. The subscribe also fails if # the time the form was retrieved is more than the above FORM_LIFETIME or less # than the below SUBSCRIBE_FORM_MIN_TIME before submission. # Important: If you have any static subscribe forms on your web site, setting # this option will break them. With this option set, subscribe forms must be # dynamically generated to include the hidden data. See the code block # beginning with "if mm_cfg.SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET:" in Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py # for the details of the hidden data. SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET = None # If SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET is not None, this is the minimum time the user must # take after retrieving the form before submitting it. Set to 0 to skip this # test. SUBSCRIBE_FORM_MIN_TIME = seconds(5) # Command that is used to convert text/html parts into plain text. This # should output results to standard output. %(filename)s will contain the # name of the temporary file that the program should operate on. HTML_TO_PLAIN_TEXT_COMMAND = '/usr/bin/lynx -dump %(filename)s' # A Python regular expression character class which defines the characters # allowed in list names. Lists cannot be created with names containing any # character that doesn't match this class. ACCEPTABLE_LISTNAME_CHARACTERS = '[-+_.=a-z0-9]' ##### # Virtual domains ##### # Set up your virtual host mappings here. This is primarily used for the # thru-the-web list creation, so its effects are currently fairly limited. # Use add_virtualhost() call to add new mappings. The keys are strings as # determined by Utils.get_domain(), the values are as appropriate for # DEFAULT_HOST_NAME. VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {} # When set to Yes, the listinfo and admin overviews of lists on the machine # will be confined to only those lists whose web_page_url configuration option # host is included within the URL by which the page is visited - only those # "on the virtual host". When set to No, all advertised (i.e. public) lists # are included in the overview. VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW = On # Helper function; use this in your mm_cfg.py files. If optional emailhost is # omitted it defaults to urlhost with the first name stripped off, e.g. # # add_virtualhost('www.dom.ain') # VIRTUAL_HOST['www.dom.ain'] # ==> 'dom.ain' # def add_virtualhost(urlhost, emailhost=None): DOT = '.' if emailhost is None: emailhost = DOT.join(urlhost.split(DOT)[1:]) VIRTUAL_HOSTS[urlhost.lower()] = emailhost.lower() # And set the default add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST) # Note that you will want to run bin/fix_url.py to change the domain of an # existing list. bin/fix_url.py must be run within the bin/withlist script, # like so: bin/withlist -l -r bin/fix_url.py mm_cfg.py ############################################### # Here's where we get the distributed defaults. from Defaults import * ################################################## # Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line. #DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/' #PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = '/pipermail' #PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://% (hostman)s/pipermail/%(listman)s' #DEFAULT_EMAILHOST = 'draguncomputers.com' VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear add_virtualhost('www.draguncomputers.com, draguncomputers.com') add_virtualhost('www.askchip.com, askchip.com') Log outputs: drwxrwsr-x 2 mailman mailman 4096 Jun 17 21:24 ./ drwxrwsr-x 21 mailman mailman 4096 Jun 17 20:49 ../ -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 admin* -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 admindb* -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 confirm* -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 create* -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 edithtml* -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 listinfo* -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 options* -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 private* -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 rmlist* -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 roster* -rwsr-sr-x 1 mailman mailman 21631 Jun 17 21:24 subscribe* root at vps-1157094-21235 [/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman]# mailman error_log: [Wed Jun 18 09:16:03 2014] [error] [client 173.245.xxx.xxx] Premature end of script headers: admindb, referer: http://216.224.171.137/mailman/admindb/mailman [Wed Jun 18 09:16:04 2014] [error] [client 173.245.xxx.xxx] suexec policy violation: see suexec log for more details, referer: http://draguncomputers.com/mailman/admindb/mailman [Wed Jun 18 09:16:04 2014] [error] [client 173.245.xxx.xxx] Premature end of script headers: admindb, referer: http://draguncomputers.com/mailman/admindb/mailman Apache: Jun 17 21:47:39 2014 admin(10560): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ admin(10560): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.18-1 -----] admin(10560): [----- Traceback ------] admin(10560): Traceback (most recent call last): admin(10560): File "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/scripts/driver", line 117, in run_main admin(10560): main() admin(10560): File "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 230, in main admin(10560): show_results(mlist, doc, category, subcat, cgidata) admin(10560): File "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 452, in show_results admin(10560): otherlinks.AddItem(Link(mlist.GetBaseArchiveURL(), admin(10560): File "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 147, in GetBaseArchiveURL admin(10560): 'hostname': hostname admin(10560): ValueError: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at index 9 admin(10560): [----- Python Information -----] admin(10560): sys.version = 2.6.6 (r266:84292, Jan 22 2014, 09:42:36) [GCC 4.4.7 20120313 (Red Hat 4.4.7-4)] admin(10560): sys.executable = /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/bin/python admin(10560): sys.prefix = /usr admin(10560): sys.exec_prefix = /usr admin(10560): sys.path = ['/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/pythonlib', '/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman', '/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/scripts', '/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman', '/usr/lib64/python26.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-tk', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-dynload', '/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages'] admin(10560): sys.platform = linux2 admin(10560): [----- Environment Variables -----] admin(10560): HTTP_REFERER: http://216.224.171.137/mailman/admin/mailman admin(10560): SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.2.27 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.27 OpenSSL/1.0.1e-fips mod_bwlimited/1.4 admin(10560): SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/admin admin(10560): SERVER_SIGNATURE:
Apache/2.2.27 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.27 OpenSSL/1.0.1e-fips mod_bwlimited/1.4 Server at 216.224.171.137 Port 80
admin(10560): admin(10560): REQUEST_METHOD: POST admin(10560): PATH_INFO: /mailman admin(10560): SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 admin(10560): QUERY_STRING: admin(10560): CONTENT_LENGTH: 38 admin(10560): HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/29.0 admin(10560): HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive admin(10560): HTTP_COOKIE: admin(10560): SERVER_NAME: 216.224.Jun 17 21:47:39 2014 admin(10560): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ admin(10560): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.18-1 -----] admin(10560): [----- Traceback ------] admin(10560): Traceback (most recent call last): admin(10560): File "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/scripts/driver", line 117, in run_main admin(10560): main() admin(10560): File "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 230, in main admin(10560): show_results(mlist, doc, category, subcat, cgidata) admin(10560): File "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 452, in show_results admin(10560): otherlinks.AddItem(Link(mlist.GetBaseArchiveURL(), admin(10560): File "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 147, in GetBaseArchiveURL admin(10560): 'hostname': hostname admin(10560): ValueError: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at index 9 admin(10560): [----- Python Information -----] admin(10560): sys.version = 2.6.6 (r266:84292, Jan 22 2014, 09:42:36) [GCC 4.4.7 20120313 (Red Hat 4.4.7-4)] admin(10560): sys.executable = /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/bin/python admin(10560): sys.prefix = /usr admin(10560): sys.exec_prefix = /usr admin(10560): sys.path = ['/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/pythonlib', '/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman', '/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/scripts', '/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman', '/usr/lib64/python26.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-tk', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.6/lib-dynload', '/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages'] admin(10560): sys.platform = linux2 admin(10560): [----- Environment Variables -----] admin(10560): HTTP_REFERER: http://216.224.171.137/mailman/admin/mailman admin(10560): SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.2.27 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.27 OpenSSL/1.0.1e-fips mod_bwlimited/1.4 admin(10560): SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/admin admin(10560): SERVER_SIGNATURE:
Apache/2.2.27 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.27 OpenSSL/1.0.1e-fips mod_bwlimited/1.4 Server at 216.224.xxx.xxx Port 80
admin(10560): admin(10560): REQUEST_METHOD: POST admin(10560): PATH_INFO: /mailman admin(10560): SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 admin(10560): QUERY_STRING: admin(10560): CONTENT_LENGTH: 38 admin(10560): HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/29.0 admin(10560): HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive admin(10560): HTTP_COOKIE: admin(10560): SERVER_NAME: 216.224.xxx.xxx admin(10560): REMOTE_ADDR: 66.55.xxx.xxx admin(10560): SERVER_PORT: 80 admin(10560): SERVER_ADDR: 216.224.xxx.xxx admin(10560): DOCUMENT_ROOT: /usr/local/apache/htdocs admin(10560): PYTHONPATH: /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman admin(10560): SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/cgi-bin/admin admin(10560): SERVER_ADMIN: john at dragunsigns.com admin(10560): HTTP_HOST: 216.224.xxx.xxx admin(10560): REQUEST_URI: /mailman/admin/mailman admin(10560): HTTP_ACCEPT: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8 admin(10560): GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 admin(10560): REMOTE_PORT: 8643 admin(10560): HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-US,en;q=0.5 admin(10560): CONTENT_TYPE: application/x-www-form-urlencoded admin(10560): HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip, deflate admin(10560): REMOTE_ADDR: 66.55.150.181 admin(10560): SERVER_PORT: 80 admin(10560): SERVER_ADDR: 216.224.171.137 admin(10560): DOCUMENT_ROOT: /usr/local/apache/htdocs admin(10560): PYTHONPATH: /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman admin(10560): SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/cgi-bin/admin admin(10560): SERVER_ADMIN: john at dragunsigns.com admin(10560): HTTP_HOST: 216.224.171.137 admin(10560): REQUEST_URI: /mailman/admin/mailman admin(10560): HTTP_ACCEPT: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8 admin(10560): GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 admin(10560): REMOTE_PORT: 8643 admin(10560): HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-US,en;q=0.5 admin(10560): CONTENT_TYPE: application/x-www-form-urlencoded admin(10560): HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip, deflate I had a hell of a time with permissions etc just to get ANY page to come up without a 403 or 500 error. Thanks for looking. John From mark at msapiro.net Thu Jun 19 22:28:56 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 13:28:56 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] 500 errors with certain domains In-Reply-To: <53A1955B.2040407@dragunsigns.com> References: <53A1955B.2040407@dragunsigns.com> Message-ID: <53A34808.7010504@msapiro.net> On 06/18/2014 06:34 AM, John Dragun wrote: > I have been running mailman on a Freebsd server for about 10 years. I am > now migrating to a bigger server running Centos. The problems I have > been having I have been able to work through with all the help posted in > these lists and forums, but I am at a point where I am stuck. > If i connect via my ip address: 216.xxx.xxx.xxx/mailman/listinfo, I get > in, I see no lists even though I made a mailman list as public, See the FAQ at . > I can > the got to the admin page, still do not see the list, but I can go to > 216.xxx.xxx.xxx/mailman/admin/mailman and log in. Once there if I go to > post a message in the waiting for moderator, when I hit the save changes > button, the url reverts to http://draguncomputers/mailman/admin/mailman > and I get a 500 error. I have virtual hosts, and only one uses the list. If you want the url to be 216.xxx.xxx.xxx/mailman/admin/mailman run Mailman's bin/withlist -l -r fix_url -u 216.xxx.xxx.xxx It shouldn't be necessary to post Defaults.py as you should never change it. All changes should be made by overrides in mm_cfg.py. See the FAQ at . > mm_cfg.py > ############################################### > # Here's where we get the distributed defaults. > > from Defaults import * > > ################################################## > # Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line. > #DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/' > #PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = '/pipermail' > #PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://% (hostman)s/pipermail/%(listman)s' If this was uncommented at Jun 17 21:47:39 2014, it explains the error log entry below. It should be PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s' This should be the Default value that's in Defaults.py. The space between '%' and '(' will cause the "ValueError: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at index 9" exception. and the misspelled names will also cause problems > #DEFAULT_EMAILHOST = 'draguncomputers.com' > > VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear > add_virtualhost('www.draguncomputers.com, draguncomputers.com') > add_virtualhost('www.askchip.com, askchip.com') You may or may not want the above. You probably want add_virtualhost('216.xxx.xxx.xxx', 'whatever.the.email.host.is') > mailman Actually, this one is Apache. > error_log: > [Wed Jun 18 09:16:03 2014] [error] [client 173.245.xxx.xxx] Premature > end of script headers: admindb, referer: > http://216.224.171.137/mailman/admindb/mailman > [Wed Jun 18 09:16:04 2014] [error] [client 173.245.xxx.xxx] suexec > policy violation: see suexec log for more details, referer: > http://draguncomputers.com/mailman/admindb/mailman > [Wed Jun 18 09:16:04 2014] [error] [client 173.245.xxx.xxx] Premature > end of script headers: admindb, referer: > http://draguncomputers.com/mailman/admindb/mailman Are there any Mailman error log entries corresponding to the above? > Apache: And this is Mailman's error log and the errors herein are explained by the invalid PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://% (hostman)s/pipermail/%(listman)s' > Jun 17 21:47:39 2014 admin(10560): > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ > admin(10560): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.18-1 -----] > admin(10560): [----- Traceback ------] > admin(10560): Traceback (most recent call last): > admin(10560): File > "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/scripts/driver", line 117, in run_main > admin(10560): main() > admin(10560): File > "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 230, in > main > admin(10560): show_results(mlist, doc, category, subcat, cgidata) > admin(10560): File > "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 452, in > show_results > admin(10560): otherlinks.AddItem(Link(mlist.GetBaseArchiveURL(), > admin(10560): File > "/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line > 147, in GetBaseArchiveURL > admin(10560): 'hostname': hostname > admin(10560): ValueError: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at > index 9 Python info and second occurrence of same error snipped. > I had a hell of a time with permissions etc just to get ANY page to come > up without a 403 or 500 error. And are those and your Apache errors resolved now? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From phanh at canby.k12.or.us Fri Jun 20 06:41:22 2014 From: phanh at canby.k12.or.us (Hung Phan) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 21:41:22 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Add member to multiple lists Message-ID: We use the add_members command to add members into a list. For members, we can create a file and include more than one. Is there something similar for lists? We want to add members into more than one list. Thank you, From mark at msapiro.net Fri Jun 20 08:02:51 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 23:02:51 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Add member to multiple lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53A3CE8B.8050103@msapiro.net> On 06/19/2014 09:41 PM, Hung Phan wrote: > We use the add_members command to add members into a list. For members, we > can create a file and include more than one. Is there something similar for > lists? We want to add members into more than one list. Make file1 containing the names of the lists you want to add to and file2 containing the names and addresses of the users you want to add. Then put this in file3 #! /bin/bash for l in `cat $1` do /path/to/bin/add_members -r $2 [other options] $l done give it execute permission and run /path/to/file3 /path/to/file1 /path/to/file2 -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From travail at jeromefabre.fr Sat Jun 21 14:44:07 2014 From: travail at jeromefabre.fr (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=F4me_Fabre?=) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 14:44:07 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] adress on same server cannot send to list with thunderbird on port 587 Message-ID: <53A57E17.7030606@jeromefabre.fr> Hello, I use mailman on a server that hosts all my mails for some domains. system is release 3 ovh based on Centos6. with thunderbird (or any other mail client), i use port 587. But with this configuration, i cannot send emails to my list. I recieve an error message from the daemon saying "user unknown". I think postfix search a user in mailboxes and don't consider mailman. If i change the port for 25 in the smtp configuration of thunderbird, ervery thing works fine. But i really want to use 587. (i have a webmail on this server that can post to the lists, external domains can also post) If someone knows how to fix it, thank you... From p_fraser at hotmail.com Sat Jun 21 03:03:14 2014 From: p_fraser at hotmail.com (Peter Fraser) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 01:03:14 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected Message-ID: Hi AllI have mailman-2.1.17 running on FreeBSD 9.1 along with postfix-2.11.0,1 I noticed that bad email addresses were not being cleared out so I downloaded get_bounce_info.py,saved it and ran it. No bounce info was displayed.I checked the postfix logs and the bounce info was there. A bit from the logs is below: status=bounced (host bla bla .com[x.x.x.x] said: 550 5.7.1 No mailbox found (in reply to RCPT TO command)) Shouldn't mailman detect these bounces? Does mailman detect from the smtp logs or some other method? Thanks for any help received. From willi.uebelherr at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 20:28:27 2014 From: willi.uebelherr at gmail.com (willi uebelherr) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 13:28:27 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] user configuration Message-ID: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> Dear friends, i am new on this list and come with a question to the overlay of admin configurations over the users configurations. In some maillist i have the problems, that the user configuration a) Receive your own posts to the list? YES b) Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO is not working. On some maillists it is working. Never i administrate a mailman instance. I need some ideas to search in the documentation to this configuration overlay. I am not shure, that this admin configuration overlay exist. But it seems like that. All the admin persons don't answer to my question. Maybe they don't understand my question. But it is simple. a) Receive your own posts to the list? YES With YES, if you send a mail to the list server, he distribute this mail also to you. b) Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO With NO, the distribution act without any check of your address in TO or CC. Because it don't work in general, i think, there is a admin configuration point to setup a general method over the users method. many thanks for your work, and many greetings, willi (currently) Panama City From mark at msapiro.net Sat Jun 21 18:01:52 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 09:01:52 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] user configuration In-Reply-To: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> References: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A5AC70.7040406@msapiro.net> On 06/20/2014 11:28 AM, willi uebelherr wrote: > > In some maillist i have the problems, that the user configuration > a) Receive your own posts to the list? YES > b) Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO > > is not working. On some maillists it is working. Never i administrate a > mailman instance. I need some ideas to search in the documentation to > this configuration overlay. Well, it's not a "configuration overlay", but that's beside the point. You are posting here from a gmail address. Gmail users NEVER receive their own posts from lists. This is a Gmail "feature". See the FAQ at for more info. > I am not shure, that this admin configuration overlay exist. But it > seems like that. > > All the admin persons don't answer to my question. Maybe they don't > understand my question. But it is simple. > > a) Receive your own posts to the list? YES > With YES, if you send a mail to the list server, he distribute this mail > also to you. Yes, but if you post from and receive your mail at Gmail, Gmail throws it away. > b) Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO > With NO, the distribution act without any check of your address in TO or > CC. Correct. > Because it don't work in general, i think, there is a admin > configuration point to setup a general method over the users method. There is no overriding admin configuration that would change these behaviors. If Gmail is not the reason, then it is something else in the delivery chain back to you. With the settings you describe, Mailman will send you copies of your own posts. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From Richard at Damon-Family.org Sat Jun 21 18:05:45 2014 From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 12:05:45 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] user configuration In-Reply-To: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> References: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A5AD59.1020707@Damon-Family.org> On 6/20/14, 2:28 PM, willi uebelherr wrote: > > Dear friends, > > i am new on this list and come with a question to the overlay of admin > configurations over the users configurations. > > In some maillist i have the problems, that the user configuration > a) Receive your own posts to the list? YES > b) Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO > > is not working. On some maillists it is working. Never i administrate > a mailman instance. I need some ideas to search in the documentation > to this configuration overlay. More details please on "not working". With the options set that way, if you are on individual messages, every message to the list will be sent to you, unless you have enabled to receive only selected "topics" (in which case every message that matches the topic filters will be sent to you). There are cases where YOUR mail transport or user agent might eliminate/hide messages. GMail is well know to do this, it will automatically remove extra copies of messages that it sees as dupicate (by matching message ids). If there are lists where you actually get your own message back or get duplicate copies then that list is doing something non-standard to defeat the operation. The one standard thing that can sort of do this is digests, as everyone on digests gets the same digests, and they are unique messages so gmail won't see them as duplicates. > I am not shure, that this admin configuration overlay exist. But it > seems like that. > > All the admin persons don't answer to my question. Maybe they don't > understand my question. But it is simple. > > a) Receive your own posts to the list? YES > With YES, if you send a mail to the list server, he distribute this > mail also to you. > > b) Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO > With NO, the distribution act without any check of your address in TO > or CC. > > Because it don't work in general, i think, there is a admin > configuration point to setup a general method over the users method. > > many thanks for your work, and many greetings, willi > (currently) Panama City To my knowledge, the options for the admin allow them to set defaults for these settings, and for some settings disable them, but in this case they won't appear on the user interface, or to change them for the user. As far as I know, if the user has a option available, it will be functional (there are a few things like digest type that won't do anything if you are not getting a digest, but that is different than what you are saying). -- Richard Damon From mark at msapiro.net Sat Jun 21 18:14:20 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 09:14:20 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] adress on same server cannot send to list with thunderbird on port 587 In-Reply-To: <53A57E17.7030606@jeromefabre.fr> References: <53A57E17.7030606@jeromefabre.fr> Message-ID: <53A5AF5C.8000201@msapiro.net> On 06/21/2014 05:44 AM, J?r?me Fabre wrote: > > I use mailman on a server that hosts all my mails for some domains. > system is release 3 ovh based on Centos6. > with thunderbird (or any other mail client), i use port 587. But with > this configuration, i cannot send emails to my list. I recieve an error > message from the daemon saying "user unknown". I think postfix search a > user in mailboxes and don't consider mailman. > If i change the port for 25 in the smtp configuration of thunderbird, > ervery thing works fine. But i really want to use 587. > (i have a webmail on this server that can post to the lists, external > domains can also post) This is really a Postfix configuration issue, not a Mailman issue. Depending on the particular Mailman installation, Postfix delivers to Mailman either via aliases and the Postfix 'local' transport or via a defined 'mailman' transport. With CentOS, it's probably the former. For some reason, when the list message arrives to Postfix via port 25, delivery to the list address is handled as it should be, but when the message arrives to Postfix via port 587, a different transport is used which doesn't know how to deliver to the list address. This is a Postfix issue and this list is not the best place for Postfix issues, but if you need more help and have sufficient access to the server, post the output from 'postconf -n' and the complete Postfix maillog 'status=bounced' entry from a failed list delivery. If you don't have sufficient access, this will have to be resolved by the server admins. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Sat Jun 21 17:53:52 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 08:53:52 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net> On 06/20/2014 06:03 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: > Hi AllI have mailman-2.1.17 running on FreeBSD 9.1 along with postfix-2.11.0,1 > I noticed that bad email addresses were not being cleared out so I downloaded get_bounce_info.py,saved it and ran it. No bounce info was displayed.I checked the postfix logs and the bounce info was there. A bit from the logs is below: > status=bounced (host bla bla .com[x.x.x.x] said: 550 5.7.1 No mailbox found (in reply to RCPT TO command)) > Shouldn't mailman detect these bounces? Yes. > Does mailman detect from the smtp logs or some other method? Bounces are detected in two ways. The bounce you refer to above may, depending on the Postfix configuration, result in a failed recipient with a "550" status being reported during the SMTP transaction between Mailman and Postfix. This should be logged in Mailman's smtp-failure log, queued as a bounce, processed by BounceRunner, scored and logged in Mailman's bounce log. Alternatively, Postfix won't detect the problem during SMTP with Mailman and later, either (in this case) the local Postfix or some downstream MTA will return a failure DSN to the envelope sender which may be LISTNAME-bounces at your.domain or in the case of VERP, LISTNAME-bounces+user=example.com at your.domain. This DSN should be received by Mailman, processed by BounceRunner, recognized, scored and logged in Mailman's bounce log. So first questions, is BounceRunner running? Is there anything in Mailman's qfiles/bounce/ queue or any bounce-events-*.pck files in Mailman's data/ directory? Next, the above partial Postfix log message should also contain a queue ID and be followed by another log message of the form postfix/bounce[pppp]: msg_queue_id: sender non-delivery notification: dsn_queue_id. with the same msg_queue_id as that of the status=bounced log message. What do the logs say about the DSN with queue ID dsn_queue_id? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From willi.uebelherr at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 18:24:50 2014 From: willi.uebelherr at gmail.com (willi uebelherr) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 11:24:50 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Re: [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: <53A5AFF3.6070303@gmail.com> References: <53A5AFF3.6070303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A5B1D2.4070702@gmail.com> Dear friends, with this information from the mailman admin documentation i understand the wrong situation. I tried to discuss with the people from the admin group on www.1net.org. But the proplem have nothing to do with mailman-server. many thanks for your information. But what can we/i do? Of course, never use Gmail. It is the best. And for the transition time? Do you have an idea for a workaround? many greetings, willi Panama City -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: Re: [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org Datum: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 11:16:51 -0500 Von: willi uebelherr An: 1net discuss Kopie (CC): 1net discuss owner , 1net discuss admin , 1net secretariat Dear friends, in the Mailman admin documentation i found this text: http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/I+use+Gmail-Googlemail%2C+but+I+can%27t+tell+if+any+of+my+messages+have+been+posted+to+the+list 2.8. Help! I use Gmail/Googlemail, but I can't tell if any of my messages have been posted to the list! Q: I use Gmail/Googlemail, but when I send a message to a list that I am subscribed to, but I never get a copy back. A: There is a problem with gmail/googlemail - when you send a message to a mailing list, any mailing list, gmail doesn't show you your own message as it comes back from the list. Everybody else sees it, even other gmail users, but not you. And replies to your message will be threaded with your post as you sent it, not as it came back (ie without list headers, subject tags or footers). This is a "feature" of gmail, and there is nothing you or the list administrator can do about it. For Google's explanation of this, see . Note that the Google explanation appears to say that your message from the list will be archived in "All Mail", but this is not correct. The only message in "All Mail" is your original message from "Sent". The actual message from the list with all headers and the list's footer and header if any is apparently not saved anywhere by Google. If your list has archives that you can check, you can at least see whether or not your message got posted to the list. You can also set your Mailman option "Receive acknowledgement mail when you send mail to the list?" to Yes. Beyond that, unfortunately there is nothing else we can do to help you. in the Google help i found: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6588 Not receiving email from groups When you send mail to any group or mailing list you subscribe to, Gmail automatically skips your inbox and archives the message to save you time and prevent clutter. The message will appear in your inbox if someone responds to it or if there is an error delivering the message. If you'd like to view your message, you can find it in Sent Mail or All Mail. I don't know the history of this stupid filtering from Google. Maybe, they use the message-id. It is a helpful information for thread ordering of mails. With this information now i understand the wrong situation with the mailman lists like 1net.org. It is a problem of my google-account and have nothing to do with the mailman-server from www.1net.org or www.nro.net. It is a very good example of non-neutrality in the internet. If any people have an idea for a bypass or workaround, it would be very great. Please excuse my accusations. many greetings, willi Panama City -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: Re: [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org Datum: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 12:29:19 -0500 Von: willi uebelherr An: 1net discuss Kopie (CC): 1net discuss owner , 1net discuss admin , 1net secretariat Dear friends, I can only repeat my regularly request to the admin group of 1Net mail list. With that, maybe, we understand more and more the bureaucratic and arrogant condition on this list. The technical questions are simpel. But to correct the situation you need the access to the list server configuration. many greetings, willi Panama City -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: Re: [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org Datum: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:25:07 -0600 Von: willi uebelherr An: 1net discuss Kopie (CC): 1net discuss owner , 1net discuss admin , 1net secretariat Dear friends, i my last mail i wrote on the end: "I hope now, we can read an answer." But nothing come. If the people of the admin-group on this have technical problems, they can ask in this list. I am shure, there are people with experience and knowledge. But to ignore the questions, then it is a very different kind of behavior. I repeat my question from my first mail in this thread: " Dear friends of the moderation group, what i have to do that i receive mails from the list with my address in To or CC? And that i receive the mails i have send to the list? my configuration: Receive your own posts to the list? YES Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO" An easy question. In my second mail in this thread i wrote: " now the second point is working: Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO But not the first: Receive your own posts to the list? YES" Never i think, that the admin-people don't read mail from the list and from the mailbox discuss-owner at 1net.org. Now i send this mail also to: secretariat at nro.net and german at nro.net. I don't know, what is nro.net. But in the config page of the mailman listinfo you can find this mail address. Now, i hope, we/i get some answers. many greetings, willi Jinotepe, Nicaragua -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: Re: [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org, etc. Datum: Wed, 04 Jun 2014 09:54:39 -0600 Von: willi uebelherr An: 1net discuss , 1net discuss owner Dear friends, i have clearly demonstrated that the administration of the mail list has a fundamental error. But never i can read an answer from the admin group of this list. Is that arrogance or ignorance of the power? Here on the mailling list of www.1net.org? Have this group the same attitudes like FCC, ICANN, IANA and all other? Self-constracted importance on a baseless existence? I don't see any big technical problem. You have to read the manual of mailman. Normally only one time in your life. Then, maybe, you understand the principles and search in the master configuration. For normal people it is easy to do, if and only if they want to do. I hope now, we can read an answer. many greetings, willi Jinotepe, Nicaragua -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org Datum: Thu, 22 May 2014 09:18:18 -0600 Von: willi uebelherr An: 1net discuss Kopie (CC): 1net discuss owner , 1net mailman owner Dear friends, my attempts to come into a discussion with the admin-group of this list was not successful. The problem. In my configuration: Receive your own posts to the list? YES Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO But never i get the mail from the listserver, that i send. And now, never i get the mail from the listserver with my address in TO or CC. So, what i have to do? many greetings, willi Jinotepe, Nicaragua -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: Fwd: Re: configuration Datum: Thu, 15 May 2014 21:52:51 -0600 Von: willi uebelherr An: 1net discuss owner Dear friends, i am waiting for any answer. But, maybe, the mail address was wrong. Therefore i resend my question. Never i get my own message from the list. The option: Receive your own posts to the list? YES But it is not working. For an answer i would be very thankful. many greetings, willi uebelherr Jinotepe, Nicaragua -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: Re: configuration Datum: Mon, 05 May 2014 12:42:16 -0600 Von: willi uebelherr An: 1net owner Dear friends, now the second point is working: Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO But not the first: Receive your own posts to the list? YES And, please, write me, what change in your server configuration you have to make. I am member on different lists with the same problem. Then i can send your information to the other admin groups. with thanks and many greetings, willi uebelherr Quetzaltenango, Guatemala -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: configuration Datum: Sun, 04 May 2014 18:09:27 -0600 Von: willi uebelherr An: 1net owner Dear friends of the moderation group, what i have to do that i receive mails from the list with my address in To or CC? And that i receive the mails i have send to the list? my configuration: Receive your own posts to the list? YES Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO many greetings, willi uebelherr Quetzaltenango, Guatemala From willi.uebelherr at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 18:54:18 2014 From: willi.uebelherr at gmail.com (willi uebelherr) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 11:54:18 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] user configuration In-Reply-To: <53A5AC70.7040406@msapiro.net> References: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> <53A5AC70.7040406@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53A5B8BA.50401@gmail.com> Dear Mark, many thanks for you fast answer. But in this time, before i read your answer, i search in the mailman documentation and i found this information. With your answer now i know, what is going on. I think, Goggle use the mail-message-id. Is it possible in the mailman, to change the message-id of the mail? Of course, independent from all, i have to disolve all my gmail accounts. But it needs a little bit of time. With the archives i can always see, what the list-server distribute. Because now, i know from you, that this information is valid as a base. thank you very much and many greetings, willi Panama City Am 06/21/2014 11:01 a.m., schrieb Mark Sapiro: > On 06/20/2014 11:28 AM, willi uebelherr wrote: >> >> In some maillist i have the problems, that the user configuration >> a) Receive your own posts to the list? YES >> b) Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO >> >> is not working. On some maillists it is working. Never i administrate a >> mailman instance. I need some ideas to search in the documentation to >> this configuration overlay. > > > Well, it's not a "configuration overlay", but that's beside the point. > You are posting here from a gmail address. Gmail users NEVER receive > their own posts from lists. This is a Gmail "feature". See the FAQ at > for more info. > > >> I am not shure, that this admin configuration overlay exist. But it >> seems like that. >> >> All the admin persons don't answer to my question. Maybe they don't >> understand my question. But it is simple. >> >> a) Receive your own posts to the list? YES >> With YES, if you send a mail to the list server, he distribute this mail >> also to you. > > > Yes, but if you post from and receive your mail at Gmail, Gmail throws > it away. > > >> b) Avoid duplicate copies of messages? NO >> With NO, the distribution act without any check of your address in TO or >> CC. > > > Correct. > > >> Because it don't work in general, i think, there is a admin >> configuration point to setup a general method over the users method. > > > There is no overriding admin configuration that would change these > behaviors. If Gmail is not the reason, then it is something else in the > delivery chain back to you. With the settings you describe, Mailman will > send you copies of your own posts. > From willi.uebelherr at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 19:05:37 2014 From: willi.uebelherr at gmail.com (willi uebelherr) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 12:05:37 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] user configuration In-Reply-To: <53A5AD59.1020707@Damon-Family.org> References: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> <53A5AD59.1020707@Damon-Family.org> Message-ID: <53A5BB61.4020204@gmail.com> Am 06/21/2014 11:05 a.m., schrieb Richard Damon: > ... > There are cases where YOUR mail transport or user agent might > eliminate/hide messages. GMail is well know to do this, it will > automatically remove extra copies of messages that it sees as > dupicate (by matching message ids). If there are lists where you > actually get your own message back or get duplicate copies then that > list is doing something non-standard to defeat the operation. The one > standard thing that can sort of do this is digests, as everyone on > digests gets the same digests, and they are unique messages so gmail > won't see them as duplicates. Dear Richard, many thanks for your answer. What is "digests"? I am a german and i don't understand the translation for "digest". May be, it is a process of manipulating the mail header? My question to Mark was, what can i do to change the message-id? Is that, what you propose? many greetings, willi Panama City From mark at msapiro.net Sat Jun 21 19:14:44 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 10:14:44 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] user configuration In-Reply-To: <53A5BB61.4020204@gmail.com> References: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> <53A5AD59.1020707@Damon-Family.org> <53A5BB61.4020204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A5BD84.6060401@msapiro.net> On 06/21/2014 10:05 AM, willi uebelherr wrote: > > many thanks for your answer. What is "digests"? I am a german and i > don't understand the translation for "digest". >From the subscription form on the listinfo page: M?chten Sie die Listenmails geb?ndelt in Form einer t?glichen Zusammenfassung (digest) erhalten? >From the user options page: Zusammenfassungs Modus Wenn Sie den Zusammenfassungs Modus aktivieren, erhalten Sie die Nachrichten eines Tages geb?ndelt anstatt einzeln. Wenn der Zusammenfassungs Modus von an auf aus gewechselt wird, erhalten Sie eine letzet Zusammenfassung! -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Sat Jun 21 19:18:24 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 10:18:24 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] user configuration In-Reply-To: <53A5B8BA.50401@gmail.com> References: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> <53A5AC70.7040406@msapiro.net> <53A5B8BA.50401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A5BE60.4040304@msapiro.net> On 06/21/2014 09:54 AM, willi uebelherr wrote: > > I think, Goggle use the mail-message-id. Is it possible in the mailman, > to change the message-id of the mail? A list member cannot control this. The site admins could patch Mailman to do this, but it is not compliant with mail standards and could have negative consequences on message threading in MUAs and archives, so it is definitely not recommended. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From willi.uebelherr at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 20:00:05 2014 From: willi.uebelherr at gmail.com (willi uebelherr) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 13:00:05 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] user configuration In-Reply-To: <53A5BD84.6060401@msapiro.net> References: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> <53A5AD59.1020707@Damon-Family.org> <53A5BB61.4020204@gmail.com> <53A5BD84.6060401@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53A5C825.5060108@gmail.com> Dear Mark, many thanks. Now i understand. If i use the archive to import mails from Mbox-format, the header are cutted. I don't like this. Maybe, with the digest mode it is the same. And for my needs to be able to actually interaction it is not good for me. I will try to ask the google-team how i can stop this stupid feature. And if i get a positive answer i will send it to this list. many greetings, willi Panama City Am 06/21/2014 12:14 p.m., schrieb Mark Sapiro: > On 06/21/2014 10:05 AM, willi uebelherr wrote: >> >> many thanks for your answer. What is "digests"? I am a german and i >> don't understand the translation for "digest". > > >>From the subscription form on the listinfo page: > > M?chten Sie die Listenmails geb?ndelt in Form einer t?glichen > Zusammenfassung (digest) erhalten? > >>From the user options page: > > Zusammenfassungs Modus > > Wenn Sie den Zusammenfassungs Modus aktivieren, erhalten Sie die > Nachrichten eines Tages geb?ndelt anstatt einzeln. Wenn der > Zusammenfassungs Modus von an auf aus gewechselt wird, erhalten Sie eine > letzet Zusammenfassung! > From p_fraser at hotmail.com Sat Jun 21 20:00:28 2014 From: p_fraser at hotmail.com (Peter Fraser) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 18:00:28 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net> References: , <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net> Message-ID: I checked the data directory and saw some *.pck files Their names were along the lines of "heldmsg--727.pck"so I guess then bouncerunner should be running. All the .pck files have heldmsg in the name. The way our setup is designed though, the mailman box isn't the mail smtp relay. It sits behind the firewall and just sends out. So I'm thinking that if a downstream box later bounced the messages, that wouldn't hit the mailman box, but would hit the main smtp relay and back to the exchange server box. I looked then at the logs of the main smtp relay and did see some bounces with dsn id's I'm hoping though that the bounces detected during the smtp transaction should be detected by postfix and then mailman.Maybe that accounts for those few .pck files? Not sure. From mark at msapiro.net Sat Jun 21 20:50:32 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 11:50:32 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: References: , <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net> On 06/21/2014 11:00 AM, Peter Fraser wrote: > I checked the data directory and saw some *.pck files Their names were along the lines of "heldmsg--727.pck"so I guess then bouncerunner should be running. All the .pck files have heldmsg in the name. These are all messages held waiting moderator action. > The way our setup is designed though, the mailman box isn't the mail smtp relay. What Postfix logged the message you reported earlier? > It sits behind the firewall and just sends out. So I'm thinking that if a downstream box later bounced the messages, that wouldn't hit the mailman box, but would hit the main smtp relay and back to the exchange server box. I looked then at the logs of the main smtp relay and did see some bounces with dsn id's > I'm hoping though that the bounces detected during the smtp transaction should be detected by postfix and then mailman.Maybe that accounts for those few .pck files? Not sure. Downstream bounces should always be reported via DSN sent back to the envelope sender of the original message which is LISTNAME-bounces at list.domain or in the VERP case, LISTNAME-bounces+bouncing_user=users.domain at list.domain. These should get back to Mailman. In general, some SMTP server gets a 5xx status from the next hop. That server sends a failure DSN back to the envelope sender. That DSN should get back to Mailman and be processed. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From p_fraser at hotmail.com Sat Jun 21 22:24:38 2014 From: p_fraser at hotmail.com (Peter Fraser) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:24:38 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net> References: , , <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net>, , <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net> Message-ID: The message I showed earlier was the postfix on the same box as mailman. Mailman should detect those bounces. I was just thinking based on what you said about some smtp servers getting the 5xx status from downstream servers thatthose errors would not reach mailman the way things are set up here. I hadn't considered that. So do those .pck files mean the bouncerunner is working? From ron at vnetworx.net Sun Jun 22 01:04:54 2014 From: ron at vnetworx.net (Ron Guerin) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 19:04:54 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler Message-ID: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> I'm struggling to find a palatable solution to the configuration of a list, and the new Yahoo-style DMARC problem. The list has mung on, as well as Reply-To: set to the list. The end result is nowhere does the original sender's address appear in the messages, when having them readily visible is the desired behavior. I was wondering about asking someone to make a Mailman handler that would re-write the From: address after munging to: Jane Doe (jane at example.com) via listname My question now is, is there any reason why re-writing it this way would be a bad idea? - Ron From stephen at xemacs.org Sun Jun 22 01:45:32 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 08:45:32 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] user configuration In-Reply-To: <53A5B8BA.50401@gmail.com> References: <53A47D4B.2050901@gmail.com> <53A5AC70.7040406@msapiro.net> <53A5B8BA.50401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87k389zv1f.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> willi uebelherr writes: > I think, Goggle use the mail-message-id. Is it possible in the mailman, > to change the message-id of the mail? You don't want to do that. Modern mail clients determine relationships ("order of conversations") among messages which may have similar subjects (or may not) by using the Message-Id. If you change it in Mailman, first of all the two messages will probably not appear together in the thread because they appear to be independent subthreads. Second, anybody who receives a direct copy of the original (including Bcc) will be placed in a different thread when they reply from those who reply to the Mailman copy. This will cause annoyance to your users with little benefit to yourself, even as admin. From mark at msapiro.net Sun Jun 22 01:53:52 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 16:53:52 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: References: , , <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net>, , <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53A61B10.1070409@msapiro.net> On 06/21/2014 01:24 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: > > > The message I showed earlier was the postfix on the same box as mailman. Mailman should detect those bounces. And what did that log show for the sender non-delivery notification message generated as a result of the undeliverable message. And was there anything in Mailman's bounce log? And is there anything in Mailman's qfiles/bounce/ directory? > I was just thinking based on what you said about some smtp servers getting the 5xx status from downstream servers thatthose errors would not reach mailman the way things are set up here. I hadn't considered that. If list posts from outside your local network reach Mailman, then bounces should too unless you have delivery to Mailman set up in some way such that messages to LISTNAME at your.domain are delivered, but messages to the other 9 LISTNAME-*@your.domain addresses are not. The 9 values of * are admin, bounces, confirm, join, leave, owner, request, subscribe and unsubscribe, and all those addresses except 'admin' which is a deprecated synonym for 'bounces' must be deliverable to Mailman for Mailman to work as documented. > So do those .pck files mean the bouncerunner is working? No. Each heldmsg-LISTNAME-nnnn.pck file is a message to the LISTNAME list waiting moderator action. They should all be visible in the admindb web UI for LISTNAME. They have nothing to do with bounces. To see if BounceRunner is running, do ps -fAw | grep BounceRunner If that shows nothing other than the 'grep', BounceRunner is not running. More information may be available in Mailman's qrunner log and possibly Mailman's error log. Also, in that case, you may see that there are queued bounces in Mailman's qfiles/bounce/ directory. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Sun Jun 22 02:04:50 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 09:04:50 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: References: <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net> <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <87iontzu59.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Peter Fraser writes: > The message I showed earlier was the postfix on the same box as > mailman. Mailman should detect those bounces. I was just thinking > based on what you said about some smtp servers getting the 5xx > status from downstream servers thatthose errors would not reach > mailman the way things are set up here. I hadn't considered that. > > So do those .pck files mean the bouncerunner is working? No. The presence of .pck files means (a) some runner is behind in its work but will eventually get to them, (b) some runner is waiting for human intervention (moderations), or (c) some runner isn't running. Depending on the name and the directory where found, they correspond to different runners. To find out if the bounce runner is running you use ps from the command line on the Mailman host. On Linux, the command ps ax | grep BounceRunner will find it. If that command produces output, it's running (actually you need to check the status in the third column, if it's S or R the process is normal, if it's Z or T something bad has happened). From johnl at taugh.com Sun Jun 22 02:06:33 2014 From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine) Date: 22 Jun 2014 00:06:33 -0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <20140622000633.88312.qmail@joyce.lan> >I was wondering about asking someone to make a Mailman handler that >would re-write the From: address after munging to: > >From: Jane Doe (jane at example.com) via listname > >My question now is, is there any reason why re-writing it this way would >be a bad idea? Well, of course, it's a bad idea for all the reasons we know that address munging in general is a bad idea. By my reading of RFC 5322, this is syntactically valid, but it's fairly unsusual to put a parenthesized comment into the display name preceding the angle-addr. Also, if Jane's name happens to have a dot or other punctuation in it, that's not valid, e.g. this is wrong: From: Jane Q. Doe (jane at example.com) via listname You can quote the whole thing to make it OK: From: "Jane Q. Doe jane at example.com via listname" R's, John From mark at msapiro.net Sun Jun 22 02:24:39 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 17:24:39 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> References: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <53A62247.4000600@msapiro.net> On 06/21/2014 04:04 PM, Ron Guerin wrote: > I'm struggling to find a palatable solution to the configuration of a > list, and the new Yahoo-style DMARC problem. > > The list has mung on, as well as Reply-To: set to the list. The end > result is nowhere does the original sender's address appear in the > messages, when having them readily visible is the desired behavior. In Mailman 2.1.18-1, the posters address will also be in Reply-To: with Reply-To: set to the list. In Mailman 2.1.16 and 2.1.17, this wasn't the case (I think only if first_strip_reply_to was Yes). > I was wondering about asking someone to make a Mailman handler that > would re-write the From: address after munging to: > > Jane Doe (jane at example.com) via listname > > My question now is, is there any reason why re-writing it this way would > be a bad idea? Yes. According to : The inclusion of more than one domain in the RFC5322.From field is dangerous. Recent studies by two major senders show that ~95% of all cases in which there is one domain in the RFC5322.From "display name" and different domain in the RFC5322.From "address-spec" are fraudulent. This practice should be discouraged as there are efforts underway to increase "spam scores" within inbound filtering when this is detected. But, on the other hand, that's exactly what Yahoo Groups is doing, so take your pick. If having the poster's address in Reply-To: would be satisfactory, try setting first_strip_reply_to to No. Changing CookHeaders to munge the from as you suggest is a very simple patch. I have attached a 2.1.16/17 version. Note that even with this patch, the bug at is not completely fixed. Also note John's objection won't apply as this will be formatted as "Jane Doe via listname" -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -------------- next part -------------- --- 2.1.16CookHeaders.py 2014-06-21 17:09:21.713302870 -0700 +++ newCookHeaders.py 2014-06-21 17:13:04.553299051 -0700 @@ -129,7 +129,9 @@ rt = msg['from'] change_header('Reply-To', rt, mlist, msg, msgdata) change_header('From', - formataddr(('%s via %s' % (realname, mlist.real_name), + formataddr(('%s <%s> via %s' % (realname, + email, + mlist.real_name), mlist.GetListEmail())), mlist, msg, msgdata) if mlist.from_is_list != 2: From turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp Sun Jun 22 02:28:45 2014 From: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 09:28:45 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> References: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <87ha3dzt1e.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Ron Guerin writes: > Jane Doe (jane at example.com) via listname > > My question now is, is there any reason why re-writing it this way > would be a bad idea? First, the DMARC proponents themselves say "don't do that!" (Mostly for the reasons given below.) Second, it disrespects the wishes of Yahoo! The reason that Yahoo! is publishing "p=reject" is because it doesn't want the mailbox to appear in From: in mail handled by third parties (mostly meaning "spammers" but also including *you*), because users take that as a sign that the mail is really from someone they know, making them vulnerable to phishing and " recommends" spam. Of course, Yahoo! Groups now is doing exactly what you propose. This sort of works for now because the spammers aren't emulating it yet, and MUAs don't put Jane's picture next to the address. Third, I bet that "Your Friend via 3rd Party " phishing and spam will appear in short order, people will be defrauded, and DMARC will be updated to reject on any appearance of a protected mailbox in From:. Then you'll be back in the same boat. I wouldn't be surprised if various MUAs (including Yahoo! itself) don't start handling Yahoo! Groups (and perhaps your list as well) specially by parsing the address out of the display name and prettifying addresses in the user's contact list, exacerbating the "Yahoo! is friendly to fraud" effect. Fourth, Heaven only knows what Outlook (and other MUAs) will do with that format of display name, but I bet it ain't pretty. My take on this is "friends don't let friends use Yahoo!", YMMV. From markr at signal100.com Sun Jun 22 03:35:38 2014 From: markr at signal100.com (Mark Rousell) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 02:35:38 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> References: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <53A632EA.80704@signal100.com> On 22/06/2014 00:04, Ron Guerin wrote: > I'm struggling to find a palatable solution to the configuration of a > list, and the new Yahoo-style DMARC problem. > > The list has mung on, as well as Reply-To: set to the list. The end > result is nowhere does the original sender's address appear in the > messages, when having them readily visible is the desired behavior. > > I was wondering about asking someone to make a Mailman handler that > would re-write the From: address after munging to: > > Jane Doe (jane at example.com) via listname > > My question now is, is there any reason why re-writing it this way would > be a bad idea? Notwithstanding the three comments above mine, all of which point out that this is a bad thing, there is a certain irony that what you suggest here is very similar to what Yahoo Groups does for its mail lists. Here are the relevant lines from two recent Yahoo Groups mail list posts, one with a name in the email's From field, one without (both edited to be generic): X-Original-From: original-author at authordomain.com From: "original-author at authordomain.com [a-yahoo-group-list]" Reply-To: a-yahoo-group-list at yahoogroups.com X-Original-From: a real name From: "a real name a-name at a-domain.co.uk [a-yahoo-group-list]" Reply-To: a-yahoo-group-list at yahoogroups.com As you can see, they don't put the original author's email address in brackets but they do put the list name in square brackets, and enclose the comment section in quotes. They have also added the X-Original-From header. Yahoo Groups always seems to (and always did) set the Reply-To back to the list address. I have to say that this approach reads well to the human eye in my opinion, even though it still results in two email addresses ending up in the new From field. But if Yahoo does it that makes it ok, doesn't it? ;-) -- Mark Rousell PGP public key: http://www.signal100.com/markr/pgp Key ID: C9C5C162 From p_fraser at hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 04:09:58 2014 From: p_fraser at hotmail.com (Peter Fraser) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 02:09:58 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: <87iontzu59.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: , <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net>, , <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net>, , <87iontzu59.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: Ok so ps -waux | grep BounceRunner returns nothing. How do I start it up? From p_fraser at hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 04:23:12 2014 From: p_fraser at hotmail.com (Peter Fraser) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 02:23:12 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: References: , , <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net>, , , <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net>, , , <87iontzu59.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>, Message-ID: Wait a minute, I typed this command by force of habit, just realized that's not what you told me to type so I ran it again ps -ax | grep BounceRunner and the result is: 8138 ?? S 0:00.26 /usr/local/bin/python2.7 /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s From mark at msapiro.net Sun Jun 22 04:35:28 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 19:35:28 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: References: , , <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net>, , , <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net>, , , <87iontzu59.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>, Message-ID: <53A640F0.50309@msapiro.net> On 06/21/2014 07:23 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: > > > Wait a minute, I typed this command by force of habit, just realized that's not what you told me to type so I ran it again > ps -ax | grep BounceRunner > and the result is: > 8138 ?? S 0:00.26 /usr/local/bin/python2.7 /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s So BounceRunner is running. So, as I asked before: On 06/21/2014 01:24 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: > > > The message I showed earlier was the postfix on the same box as > mailman. Mailman should detect those bounces. And what did that log show for the sender non-delivery notification message generated as a result of the undeliverable message. And was there anything in Mailman's bounce log? And if it appeared the message was delivered to Mailman, was there anything in Mailman's error log from the time of the delivery? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From pshute at nuw.org.au Sun Jun 22 05:33:03 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 13:33:03 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: <53A632EA.80704@signal100.com> References: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> <53A632EA.80704@signal100.com> Message-ID: Yahoo Groups also add something like this in a footer: "Posted by: a real name a-name at a-domain.co.uk" and a series of mailto links below that for replying to the original sender or to the group. I find the former useful for telling who sent the message, because my iPad only displays the list address in From. The latter would be useful for those who find replying directly to the original sender difficult, but they don't include any quoted text, which is annoying at times. Peter Shute >> On 22 Jun 2014, at 11:50 am, "Mark Rousell" wrote: >> >> On 22/06/2014 00:04, Ron Guerin wrote: >> I'm struggling to find a palatable solution to the configuration of a >> list, and the new Yahoo-style DMARC problem. >> >> The list has mung on, as well as Reply-To: set to the list. The end >> result is nowhere does the original sender's address appear in the >> messages, when having them readily visible is the desired behavior. >> >> I was wondering about asking someone to make a Mailman handler that >> would re-write the From: address after munging to: >> >> Jane Doe (jane at example.com) via listname >> >> My question now is, is there any reason why re-writing it this way would >> be a bad idea? > > Notwithstanding the three comments above mine, all of which point out > that this is a bad thing, there is a certain irony that what you suggest > here is very similar to what Yahoo Groups does for its mail lists. > > Here are the relevant lines from two recent Yahoo Groups mail list > posts, one with a name in the email's From field, one without (both > edited to be generic): > > > X-Original-From: original-author at authordomain.com > From: "original-author at authordomain.com [a-yahoo-group-list]" > > Reply-To: a-yahoo-group-list at yahoogroups.com > > > X-Original-From: a real name > From: "a real name a-name at a-domain.co.uk [a-yahoo-group-list]" > > Reply-To: a-yahoo-group-list at yahoogroups.com > > > As you can see, they don't put the original author's email address in > brackets but they do put the list name in square brackets, and enclose > the comment section in quotes. > > They have also added the X-Original-From header. > > Yahoo Groups always seems to (and always did) set the Reply-To back to > the list address. > > I have to say that this approach reads well to the human eye in my > opinion, even though it still results in two email addresses ending up > in the new From field. > > But if Yahoo does it that makes it ok, doesn't it? ;-) > > -- > Mark Rousell > > PGP public key: http://www.signal100.com/markr/pgp > Key ID: C9C5C162 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%40nuw.org.au From p_fraser at hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 05:43:14 2014 From: p_fraser at hotmail.com (Peter Fraser) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 03:43:14 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: <53A640F0.50309@msapiro.net> References: , ,,<53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net>, ,,, <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net>, , , , , <87iontzu59.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>, , , , <53A640F0.50309@msapiro.net> Message-ID: And what did that log show for the sender non-delivery notification message generated as a result of the undeliverable message. I looked at the postfix logs again and although I do see different type of bounces, I am not seeing anything delivered to mailman. Here are some examples: Jun 20 04:11:30 poseidon postfix/qmgr[95432]: B7E0A3AC890: from=, size=585098, nrcpt=500 (queue active) Jun 20 04:11:31 poseidon postfix/qmgr[95432]: B52323AC87E: from=, status=expired, returned to sender Here's one where it seems to send the bounced message back to ExchangeJun 20 04:11:31 poseidon postfix/smtp[1539]: 35F9D3AC8A5: to=, relay=hubtransport.domain.com[192.168.0.165]:25, delay=0.22, delays=0.08/0.04/0.01/0.1, dsn=2.6.0, status=sent (250 2.6.0 <20140620091131.35F9D3AC8A5 at mail1.domain.com> Queued mail for delivery) And was there anything in Mailman's bounce log? I looked in /usr/local/mailman/logs and only saw these files:root at poseidon:/usr/local/mailman/logs # lserror post qrunner smtp smtp-failure subscribe vette I didn't see any for bounces. The last entry in smtp-failure was for last year. smtp had nothing about bounces. And if it appeared the message was delivered to Mailman, was there anything in Mailman's error log from the time of the delivery? No, I didn't even see anything in the error log for June 20 to correspond with the postfix log time and date. The last log entry in errorbefore that was in February. From mark at msapiro.net Sun Jun 22 06:27:44 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 21:27:44 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: References: , , , <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net>, , , , <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net>, , , , , <87iontzu59.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>, , , , <53A640F0.50309@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53A65B40.7020908@msapiro.net> On 06/21/2014 08:43 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: > And what did that log show for the sender non-delivery notification > message generated as a result of the undeliverable message. > I looked at the postfix logs again and although I do see different type of bounces, I am not seeing anything delivered to mailman. Here are some examples: > Jun 20 04:11:30 poseidon postfix/qmgr[95432]: B7E0A3AC890: from=, size=585098, nrcpt=500 (queue active) > Jun 20 04:11:31 poseidon postfix/qmgr[95432]: B52323AC87E: from=, status=expired, returned to sender First of all, these should be from=, not from=. If your posts are really being sent with envelope from , that means bounces will be returned as list posts, not as bounces. But, I'm still not seeing what I need to see. Taking the last above message as an example, do grep B52323AC87E /var/log/maillog or whatever the log file is. In the last few lines, you should see one that says ...postfix/bounce[...]: B52323AC87E sender non-delivery notification: xxxx where xxx is another Postfix queue ID for the bounce DSN. Then grep the log for that Queue ID, and what do you see? > Here's one where it seems to send the bounced message back to ExchangeJun 20 04:11:31 poseidon postfix/smtp[1539]: 35F9D3AC8A5: to=, relay=hubtransport.domain.com[192.168.0.165]:25, delay=0.22, delays=0.08/0.04/0.01/0.1, dsn=2.6.0, status=sent (250 2.6.0 <20140620091131.35F9D3AC8A5 at mail1.domain.com> Queued mail for delivery) If this is actually a report on one of those DSNs, it should be going to=, not to=. If the envelope from of your outgoing posts is really and not , that would explain why bounces are being processed and it might explain what the heldmsg files are (i.e. bounces returned to the list and being held as non-member posts). It this is what's happening, something is rewriting the envelope sender. What, I have no idea. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From cite+mailman-users at incertum.net Sun Jun 22 13:35:03 2014 From: cite+mailman-users at incertum.net (Stefan Foerster) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 13:35:03 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Debian/wheezy backport >= 2.1.18 Message-ID: <20140622113503.GF7603@mail.incertum.net> Hello world, does anyone currently know of installable packages for Mailman >= 2.1.18 for Debian/wheezy to address the DMARC style problems? I'm hesistant to re-package it myself or install from sources. Cheers Stefan From bjo at nord-west.org Sun Jun 22 14:12:12 2014 From: bjo at nord-west.org (Bjoern Franke) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 14:12:12 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: References: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> <53A632EA.80704@signal100.com> Message-ID: <1403439132.24618.2.camel@mytilus> Am Sonntag, den 22.06.2014, 13:33 +1000 schrieb Peter Shute: > Yahoo Groups also add something like this in a footer: > "Posted by: a real name a-name at a-domain.co.uk" > and a series of mailto links below that for replying to the original sender or to the group. Well, won't this break DKIM? Regards Bjoern -- xmpp bjo at schafweide.org bjo.nord-west.org | nord-west.org From bjo at nord-west.org Sun Jun 22 14:09:42 2014 From: bjo at nord-west.org (Bjoern Franke) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 14:09:42 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Debian/wheezy backport >= 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: <20140622113503.GF7603@mail.incertum.net> References: <20140622113503.GF7603@mail.incertum.net> Message-ID: <1403438982.24618.1.camel@mytilus> Am Sonntag, den 22.06.2014, 13:35 +0200 schrieb Stefan Foerster: > Hello world, > > does anyone currently know of installable packages for Mailman >= 2.1.18 > for Debian/wheezy to address the DMARC style problems? > > I'm hesistant to re-package it myself or install from sources. There was a backport-request on https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=746592 Even in unstable/sid the version is only 2.1.16. Regards Bjoern -- xmpp bjo at schafweide.org bjo.nord-west.org | nord-west.org From Richard at Damon-Family.org Sun Jun 22 14:41:20 2014 From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 08:41:20 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: <1403439132.24618.2.camel@mytilus> References: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> <53A632EA.80704@signal100.com> <1403439132.24618.2.camel@mytilus> Message-ID: <53A6CEF0.50307@Damon-Family.org> On 6/22/14, 8:12 AM, Bjoern Franke wrote: > Am Sonntag, den 22.06.2014, 13:33 +1000 schrieb Peter Shute: >> Yahoo Groups also add something like this in a footer: >> "Posted by: a real name a-name at a-domain.co.uk" >> and a series of mailto links below that for replying to the original sender or to the group. > Well, won't this break DKIM? > > Regards > Bjoern > If they didn't break DKIM already, they wouldn't need to do this, as they could leave From: unchanged and pass DMARC! " -- Richard Damon From cite at incertum.net Sun Jun 22 15:19:57 2014 From: cite at incertum.net (Stefan Foerster) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 15:19:57 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Debian/wheezy backport >= 2.1.18 In-Reply-To: <1403438982.24618.1.camel@mytilus> References: <20140622113503.GF7603@mail.incertum.net> <1403438982.24618.1.camel@mytilus> Message-ID: <20140622131956.GG7603@mail.incertum.net> * Bjoern Franke : > Am Sonntag, den 22.06.2014, 13:35 +0200 schrieb Stefan Foerster: > > Hello world, > > > > does anyone currently know of installable packages for Mailman >= 2.1.18 > > for Debian/wheezy to address the DMARC style problems? > > > > I'm hesistant to re-package it myself or install from sources. > > There was a backport-request on > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=746592 > > Even in unstable/sid the version is only 2.1.16. Ah darn, I was afraid of something like that. Well, FWIW, I just fired up a vagrant VM and built http://stuff.incertum.net/mailman/ It's likely to be broken - especially qmail-to-mailman.py, but "it works for me[tm]". Feedback welcome, though I'll be on vacation soon... Cheers Stefan P.S: BTW, that's NOT how one should build/distribute/upgrade Debian packages! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From stephen at xemacs.org Sun Jun 22 15:22:17 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 22:22:17 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: <1403439132.24618.2.camel@mytilus> References: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> <53A632EA.80704@signal100.com> <1403439132.24618.2.camel@mytilus> Message-ID: <87bntlyt86.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Bjoern Franke writes: > Am Sonntag, den 22.06.2014, 13:33 +1000 schrieb Peter Shute: > > Yahoo Groups also add something like this in a footer: > > "Posted by: a real name a-name at a-domain.co.uk" > > and a series of mailto links below that for replying to the original sender or to the group. > > Well, won't this break DKIM? No. DKIM provides *no* policy, except that verifiers should draw the same conclusions from an invalid signature that they would from the absence of that signature. So this question really means "Will there be a valid DKIM signature?" And the answer is "Yes -- the signature by Yahoo! Groups' own MTA will be valid".[1] Other signatures may be invalid, but according to DKIM they should be ignored. Perhaps you meant "won't this break DMARC?" and again the answer is (perhaps more surprisingly), "no"! The reason is that the mailbox in From: is @yahoo (or @yahoo-groups or something like that), and that MTA will DKIM sign after corrupting From: and adding that footer. This signature will be valid, and the domain in the mailbox in From: and the signing domain will be the same, and thus will accepted by a recipient participating in DMARC. The only problem is that anything Yahoo! Groups can do, the spammers and phishers can do too. (And of course that it violates RFC 5322.) Footnotes: [1] There are caveats to this, of course -- we *are* talking about *Internet mail*, where *anything* can happen and eventually does. From willi.uebelherr at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 17:51:07 2014 From: willi.uebelherr at gmail.com (willi uebelherr) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 10:51:07 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> References: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A6FB6B.3040304@gmail.com> Dear friends, i send you a small communication with google. This technican people are realy very stupid. I wait for a reply to my more concrete question. But i think, Google don't like this public disgracing. many greetings, willi Panama City -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: [Gmail Forum] Not receiving email from groups Datum: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 11:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Von: Willi ?belherr An: gmail at googleproductforums.com Dear friends, the gmail-server blocked email to my account. Not as spam. No, as any else. If i send a mail to a maillistserver for distribution, i want to receive this mail from the listserver. But google stopped this mail without my request and without any information to me. In the mailman-configuration i can set this option. But then, it have to work transparently and never i accept any hidden mail deleting. many greetings, willi Panama City -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: [Gmail Forum] Re: Not receiving email from groups Datum: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 19:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Von: bkennelly via Gmail Help Forum Gmail only stores one copy of each message in your account. If you sent the message, you already have a copy and the incoming copy is recognised as a duplicate. If your mailing list software has the option to change the Message-ID when re-sending messages, Gmail will recognise the returning message as a new version and you will get it in your Inbox. -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: [Gmail Forum] Re: Not receiving email from groups Datum: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 21:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Von: Willi ?belherr via Gmail Help Forum Dear bkennelly, i thought, that gmail use the message-id for compare. But the mail i send is different to the mail i receive. The mailheader is extended. And this information is always necessary for me. To change the message-id is a bad way because the message-id are used for thread ordering in the mail directory. And many internal functions are working based on the message-id. My primary question goes to the possibility, how i can define or enable/disable this delete function in this account. many greetings, willi Panama City From johnl at taugh.com Sun Jun 22 18:48:33 2014 From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine) Date: 22 Jun 2014 16:48:33 -0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: <1403439132.24618.2.camel@mytilus> Message-ID: <20140622164833.94409.qmail@joyce.lan> >> Yahoo Groups also add something like this in a footer: >> "Posted by: a real name a-name at a-domain.co.uk" >> and a series of mailto links below that for replying to the original sender or to the group. > >Well, won't this break DKIM? Yes, but if it also takes the real author address out of the From: line, it'll avoid DMARC problems. Lists should put their own DKIM signature on outgoing mail, so recipient systems can recognize it as being from the list. That's how it's supposed to work. R's, John From seun.ojedeji at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 19:32:12 2014 From: seun.ojedeji at gmail.com (Seun Ojedeji) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 18:32:12 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: <53A6FB6B.3040304@gmail.com> References: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> <53A6FB6B.3040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Willi On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 4:51 PM, willi uebelherr wrote: > > -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Betreff: [Gmail Forum] Re: Not receiving email from groups > Datum: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 19:07:20 -0700 (PDT) > Von: bkennelly via Gmail Help Forum > > Gmail only stores one copy of each message in your account. If you sent > the message, you already have a copy and the incoming copy is recognised as > a duplicate. > And this response they gave you was not sufficient but only seem stupid to you....interesting! Cheers! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Seun Ojedeji,Federal University Oye-Ekitiweb: http://www.fuoye.edu.ng Mobile: +2348035233535**alt email: seun.ojedeji at fuoye.edu.ng * The key to understanding is humility - my view ! From pshute at nuw.org.au Sun Jun 22 19:52:33 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 03:52:33 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: References: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> <53A6FB6B.3040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: Will gmail recognise the message as a duplicate even if the list has added a prefix to the subject line, and a footer? Peter Shute Sent from my iPad > On 23 Jun 2014, at 3:32 am, "Seun Ojedeji" wrote: > > Hello Willi > On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 4:51 PM, willi uebelherr > wrote: > >> >> -------- Original-Nachricht -------- >> Betreff: [Gmail Forum] Re: Not receiving email from groups >> Datum: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 19:07:20 -0700 (PDT) >> Von: bkennelly via Gmail Help Forum >> >> Gmail only stores one copy of each message in your account. If you sent >> the message, you already have a copy and the incoming copy is recognised as >> a duplicate. > > And this response they gave you was not sufficient but only seem stupid to > you....interesting! > > Cheers! > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > *Seun Ojedeji,Federal University Oye-Ekitiweb: http://www.fuoye.edu.ng > Mobile: +2348035233535**alt email: > seun.ojedeji at fuoye.edu.ng > * > > The key to understanding is humility - my view ! > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%40nuw.org.au From mark at msapiro.net Sun Jun 22 20:11:39 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 11:11:39 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: References: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> <53A6FB6B.3040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A71C5B.60101@msapiro.net> On 06/22/2014 10:52 AM, Peter Shute wrote: > Will gmail recognise the message as a duplicate even if the list has added a prefix to the subject line, and a footer? Yes, it uses (I think) only Message-ID. That's the problem. You never can see the decorated message from the list. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From Richard at Damon-Family.org Sun Jun 22 20:18:32 2014 From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 14:18:32 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: References: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> <53A6FB6B.3040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A71DF8.9000905@Damon-Family.org> On 6/22/14, 1:52 PM, Peter Shute wrote: > Will gmail recognise the message as a duplicate even if the list has added a prefix to the subject line, and a footer? > > Peter Shute > > To my knowledge, the ONE thing that gmail checks is the Message-ID: header, if that matches, it is a duplicate and dropped. It is not checking for the messages being "identical", it is detecting "duplicates", as defined by the RFCs for Email (if two messages are different, they must have different Message-ID:s). -- Richard Damon From willi.uebelherr at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 22:34:15 2014 From: willi.uebelherr at gmail.com (willi uebelherr) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 15:34:15 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> References: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A73DC7.1090405@gmail.com> Dear friends, now i think, it is clear. The feature "duplicate suppression" is a fix mechanism. I will wait for the answers of the people from the mailman-users list, what the say about. But in Gmail with a user configuration never i can resolve the problem. The mailman server never want to support the change of message-id. And as a user never i can do it. Only with a second user subscribing. My next alternative is to use GMX in Germany or any other non-non-neutral mailserver. I ordered the mails in inverse chronical order. many greetings, willi Panama City -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: [Gmail Forum] Re: Not receiving email from groups Datum: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 09:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Von: bkennelly via Gmail Help Forum No, you cannot turn off duplicate suppression. Gmail follows the RFCs and treats the Message-ID as globally unique for a particular version of the message. According to RFC5322, changing the Message-ID is the correct way to identify a new revision of the message. In regards to the added headers, it states: The addition of such header fields does not change the identity of the message and therefore the original "Message-ID:" field is retained. In all cases, it is the meaning that the sender of the message wishes to convey (i.e., *whether this is the same message or a different **message*) that *determines whether or not the "Message-ID:" field **changes, *not any particular syntactic difference that appears (or does not appear) in the message. In other words, if you consider the message sent from the mailing list to be a different message, change the Message-ID. Keeping the Message-ID signals that it is the same message, and Gmail will suppress it as a duplicate. It should not affect message threading or other functions. (Threading is based on headers referencing previous messages, which are not changing. Changing the ID on the new message doesn't affect any of those headers.) If you don't want to change the Message-ID, you can subscribe another address to the list to get all of the messages. -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: [Gmail Forum] Re: Not receiving email from groups Datum: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 21:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Von: Willi ?belherr via Gmail Help Forum Dear bkennelly, i thought, that gmail use the message-id for compare. But the mail i send is different to the mail i receive. The mailheader is extended. And this information is always necessary for me. To change the message-id is a bad way because the message-id are used for thread ordering in the mail directory. And many internal functions are working based on the message-id. My primary question goes to the possibility, how i can define or enable/disable this delete function in this account. many greetings, willi Panama City -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: [Gmail Forum] Re: Not receiving email from groups Datum: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 19:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Von: bkennelly via Gmail Help Forum Gmail only stores one copy of each message in your account. If you sent the message, you already have a copy and the incoming copy is recognised as a duplicate. If your mailing list software has the option to change the Message-ID when re-sending messages, Gmail will recognise the returning message as a new version and you will get it in your Inbox. -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: [Gmail Forum] Not receiving email from groups Datum: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 11:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Von: Willi ?belherr An: gmail at googleproductforums.com Dear friends, the gmail-server blocked email to my account. Not as spam. No, as any else. If i send a mail to a maillistserver for distribution, i want to receive this mail from the listserver. But google stopped this mail without my request and without any information to me. In the mailman-configuration i can set this option. But then, it have to work transparently and never i accept any hidden mail deleting. many greetings, willi Panama City From Richard at Damon-Family.org Mon Jun 23 00:06:34 2014 From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 18:06:34 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: <53A73DC7.1090405@gmail.com> References: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> <53A73DC7.1090405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A7536A.7010001@Damon-Family.org> On 6/22/14, 4:34 PM, willi uebelherr wrote: > > Dear friends, > > now i think, it is clear. The feature "duplicate suppression" is a fix > mechanism. I will wait for the answers of the people from the > mailman-users list, what the say about. But in Gmail with a user > configuration never i can resolve the problem. > > The mailman server never want to support the change of message-id. And > as a user never i can do it. Only with a second user subscribing. My > next alternative is to use GMX in Germany or any other non-non-neutral > mailserver. > > I ordered the mails in inverse chronical order. > > many greetings, willi > Panama City > One option is to add a subscription to the list in digest mode. While normally you can have only 1 subscription per email address, since gmail addresses are dot (.) insensitive, you can create a "new" email address adding or removing a dot to the email address. If you subscribe to the Mime-Digest, you will even get messages with headers. -- Richard Damon From pshute at nuw.org.au Mon Jun 23 02:21:22 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 10:21:22 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrub_nondigest questions Message-ID: We're considering enabling the scrub_nondigest option for our list. The aim is to allow members to send jpg files to the list (currently filtered) and have mailman include a link to them in messages instead of the actual attachment. I've got a few questions about how this works. I believe it will store the scrubbed images in the archives. We have archiving turned off. Do we need to turn them on to allow the images to be placed there, or will it happen anyway? Once we have images stored in the archives, how easy is it for members to access them when they click on the links in the messages? Will they need a password to see them? Will we be able to selectively delete images when our disk space begins to fill up? Or will they all be stored in a single archive file? We're using cpanel, if that matters. If anyone who's using this option could forward me a message from their list with a linked image so I can check how well it works, that would be greatly appreciated. Sent from my iPad From p_fraser at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 06:36:33 2014 From: p_fraser at hotmail.com (Peter Fraser) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 04:36:33 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: <53A65B40.7020908@msapiro.net> References: , , , , , <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net>, , , , , , , <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net>, , , , , , , , , <87iontzu59.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>, , , , , , , , <53A640F0.50309@msapiro.net>, , <53A65B40.7020908@msapiro.net> Message-ID: Ok I went scouring through the logs trying to trace a particular message like you suggested and I did find some like this: Here's one message I tracked.214CA3AC88D: from=, size=585098, nrcpt=500 (queue active) then214CA3AC88D: to=, relay=none, delay=32256, delays=32255/0.05/0.15/0, dsn=4.4.1, status=deferred (connect to mail1.otherdomain.com[x.x.x.x]:25: Connection refused then214CA3AC88D: from=, size=585098, nrcpt=500 (queue active) then214CA3AC88D: sender non-delivery notification: 35F9D3AC8A5 then35F9D3AC8A5: from=<>, size=3771, nrcpt=1 (queue active) then35F9D3AC8A5: to=, relay=hubtransport.domain.net[192.168.0.165]:25, delay=0.22, delays=0.08/0.04/0.01/0.1, dsn=2.6.0, status=sent (250 2.6.0 <20140620091131.35F9D3AC8A5 at mail1.domain.com> Queued mail for delivery) then35F9D3AC8A5: removed > First of all, these should be from=, not > from=. If your posts are really being sent with > envelope from , that means bounces will be returned > as list posts, not as bounces. > > But, I'm still not seeing what I need to see. Taking the last above > message as an example, do > > grep B52323AC87E /var/log/maillog > > or whatever the log file is. In the last few lines, you should see one > that says > > ...postfix/bounce[...]: B52323AC87E sender non-delivery notification: xxxx > > where xxx is another Postfix queue ID for the bounce DSN. Then grep the > log for that Queue ID, and what do you see? > > > > Here's one where it seems to send the bounced message back to ExchangeJun 20 04:11:31 poseidon postfix/smtp[1539]: 35F9D3AC8A5: to=, relay=hubtransport.domain.com[192.168.0.165]:25, delay=0.22, delays=0.08/0.04/0.01/0.1, dsn=2.6.0, status=sent (250 2.6.0 <20140620091131.35F9D3AC8A5 at mail1.domain.com> Queued mail for delivery) > > > If this is actually a report on one of those DSNs, it should be going > to=, not to=. If the > envelope from of your outgoing posts is really and > not , that would explain why bounces are > being processed and it might explain what the heldmsg files are (i.e. > bounces returned to the list and being held as non-member posts). > > It this is what's happening, something is rewriting the envelope sender. > What, I have no idea. > From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 23 07:15:11 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 22:15:11 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces not being detected In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <53A5AA90.3090702@msapiro.net>, , , , , , , <53A5D3F8.5060303@msapiro.net>, , , , , , , , , <87iontzu59.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>, , , , , , , , <53A640F0.50309@msapiro.net>, , <53A65B40.7020908@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53A7B7DF.5050905@msapiro.net> On 06/22/2014 09:36 PM, Peter Fraser wrote: > > Ok I went scouring through the logs trying to trace a particular message like you suggested and I did find some like this: > > Here's one message I tracked.214CA3AC88D: from=, size=585098, nrcpt=500 (queue active) > then214CA3AC88D: to=, relay=none, delay=32256, delays=32255/0.05/0.15/0, dsn=4.4.1, status=deferred (connect to mail1.otherdomain.com[x.x.x.x]:25: Connection refused > then214CA3AC88D: from=, size=585098, nrcpt=500 (queue active) > then214CA3AC88D: sender non-delivery notification: 35F9D3AC8A5 > then35F9D3AC8A5: from=<>, size=3771, nrcpt=1 (queue active) > then35F9D3AC8A5: to=, relay=hubtransport.domain.net[192.168.0.165]:25, delay=0.22, delays=0.08/0.04/0.01/0.1, dsn=2.6.0, status=sent (250 2.6.0 <20140620091131.35F9D3AC8A5 at mail1.domain.com> Queued mail for delivery) > then35F9D3AC8A5: removed OK. The failure DSN was sent to via hubtransport.domain.net (local network IP 192.168.0.165) and accepted by the MTA there with the response (250 2.6.0 <20140620091131.35F9D3AC8A5 at mail1.domain.com> Queued mail for delivery) So look at the logs on that machine and see what it did with the message. And then continue to follow the message until you see it delivered to Mailman or not delivered and why. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 23 08:07:54 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 23:07:54 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrub_nondigest questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53A7C43A.5070809@msapiro.net> On 06/22/2014 05:21 PM, Peter Shute wrote: > We're considering enabling the scrub_nondigest option for our list. The aim is to allow members to send jpg files to the list (currently filtered) and have mailman include a link to them in messages instead of the actual attachment. I've got a few questions about how this works. > > I believe it will store the scrubbed images in the archives. We have archiving turned off. Do we need to turn them on to allow the images to be placed there, or will it happen anyway? It will happen anyway. Archiving for the list doesn't need to be enabled. > Once we have images stored in the archives, how easy is it for members to access them when they click on the links in the messages? Will they need a password to see them? If and only if the list's archive_private setting is private, but since archiving is Off, if you want scrubbed attachments accessible without autnentication, just set archive_private to public. > Will we be able to selectively delete images when our disk space begins to fill up? Or will they all be stored in a single archive file? We're using cpanel, if that matters. I don't think cPanel is different. The attachments for a message are stored individually in the directory archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/yyyymmdd/xxxxxxxx/. yyyymmdd is the date and xxxxxxxx is a hash of the message, so you can delete individual files or the xxxxxxxx directory for all attachments for a single message or the yyyymmdd directory for all attachments from a given day. > If anyone who's using this option could forward me a message from their list with a linked image so I can check how well it works, that would be greatly appreciated. Why not just try it yourself on a test list? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From pshute at nuw.org.au Mon Jun 23 10:03:17 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 18:03:17 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrub_nondigest questions In-Reply-To: <53A7C43A.5070809@msapiro.net> References: <53A7C43A.5070809@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <10E3F93A-CC84-4885-89A3-EF3ACFE68244@nuw.org.au> > On 23 Jun 2014, at 4:08 pm, "Mark Sapiro" wrote: > >> Will we be able to selectively delete images when our disk space begins to fill up? Or will they all be stored in a single archive file? We're using cpanel, if that matters. > > I don't think cPanel is different. > > The attachments for a message are stored individually in the directory > archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/yyyymmdd/xxxxxxxx/. yyyymmdd is > the date and xxxxxxxx is a hash of the message, so you can delete > individual files or the xxxxxxxx directory for all attachments for a > single message or the yyyymmdd directory for all attachments from a > given day. Any idea if we'll have access to that area in cPanel? I'm not the list owner, I can't test it for myself. And does the value of archive_volume_frequency affect where they're stored? >> If anyone who's using this option could forward me a message from their list with a linked image so I can check how well it works, that would be greatly appreciated Thanks for sending the sample. Peter Shute From pshute at nuw.org.au Mon Jun 23 12:57:23 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:57:23 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrub_nondigest questions may be attachment-move custom handler In-Reply-To: <53A7F3BC.5030808@opensource-expert.com> References: <53A7C43A.5070809@msapiro.net> <10E3F93A-CC84-4885-89A3-EF3ACFE68244@nuw.org.au> <53A7F3BC.5030808@opensource-expert.com> Message-ID: <38A50E22-4CFC-4F69-B41D-01C0D43C9995@nuw.org.au> I was testing that for you a few weeks ago. I just tried again, and it seems to work smoothly now. Could that be made to automatically resize images? E.g. maximum dimensions 800x800 pixels. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad > On 23 Jun 2014, at 7:30 pm, "Sylvain Viart" wrote: > > Hi Peter, > > I programmed a custom handler that complete or replace Scrub_nondigest > handler: > > AttachmentMove > > > You can test or try it here: > http://mailman.opensource-expert.com/mailman/listinfo/attachment-move > > Hosting in done in France and could be slow to reach from foreign > countries. > This running version is not commited yet, minor i8n changes. > It's also working in production of a customer with a list of 930 > subscribers since 3 weeks. > > The code and the doc : https://github.com/Sylvain303/mailman-AttachmentMove > > > Le 23/06/2014 10:03, Peter Shute a ?crit : >>> If anyone who's using this option could forward me a message from their list with a linked image so I can check how well it works, that would be greatly appreciated > > AttachmentMove keeps embedded images, they could be moved as well. > The remote hosting for attachment can be same or a different one that > the server running mailman. > > To reply to your first post: > >> We're considering enabling the scrub_nondigest option for our list. The aim is to allow members to send jpg files to the list (currently filtered) and have mailman include a link to them in messages instead of the actual attachment. > > That is the purpose of AttachmentMove. > >> I believe it will store the scrubbed images in the archives. We have archiving turned off. Do we need to turn them on to allow the images to be placed there, or will it happen anyway? > > Attachment are stored "locally" and on a remote hosting. The local > storage (on the mailman server) is not the archive. And it is used to > avoid duplicate file name when uploaded on the webserver. > >> Once we have images stored in the archives, how easy is it for members to access them when they click on the links in the messages? Will they need a password to see them? > > AttachmentMove, publish the image on a different hosting no password are > required, the goal was to keeps user away for technical details. > >> Will we be able to selectively delete images when our disk space begins to fill up? Or will they all be stored in a single archive file? We're using cpanel, if that matters. > > Not storage management is coded yet, a cron with the good "find -mtime" > could do the trick. > It's in my idea to handle that too. > >> If anyone who's using this option could forward me a message from their list with a linked image so I can check how well it works, that would be greatly appreciated. > > I sent you an example we have made on the test list. > > > Let me know if that meet your needs. > > Regards, > Sylvain. > From sylvain at opensource-expert.com Mon Jun 23 11:30:36 2014 From: sylvain at opensource-expert.com (Sylvain Viart) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 11:30:36 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrub_nondigest questions may be attachment-move custom handler In-Reply-To: <10E3F93A-CC84-4885-89A3-EF3ACFE68244@nuw.org.au> References: <53A7C43A.5070809@msapiro.net> <10E3F93A-CC84-4885-89A3-EF3ACFE68244@nuw.org.au> Message-ID: <53A7F3BC.5030808@opensource-expert.com> Hi Peter, I programmed a custom handler that complete or replace Scrub_nondigest handler: AttachmentMove You can test or try it here: http://mailman.opensource-expert.com/mailman/listinfo/attachment-move Hosting in done in France and could be slow to reach from foreign countries. This running version is not commited yet, minor i8n changes. It's also working in production of a customer with a list of 930 subscribers since 3 weeks. The code and the doc : https://github.com/Sylvain303/mailman-AttachmentMove Le 23/06/2014 10:03, Peter Shute a ?crit : >> If anyone who's using this option could forward me a message from their list with a linked image so I can check how well it works, that would be greatly appreciated AttachmentMove keeps embedded images, they could be moved as well. The remote hosting for attachment can be same or a different one that the server running mailman. To reply to your first post: > We're considering enabling the scrub_nondigest option for our list. The aim is to allow members to send jpg files to the list (currently filtered) and have mailman include a link to them in messages instead of the actual attachment. That is the purpose of AttachmentMove. > I believe it will store the scrubbed images in the archives. We have archiving turned off. Do we need to turn them on to allow the images to be placed there, or will it happen anyway? Attachment are stored "locally" and on a remote hosting. The local storage (on the mailman server) is not the archive. And it is used to avoid duplicate file name when uploaded on the webserver. > Once we have images stored in the archives, how easy is it for members to access them when they click on the links in the messages? Will they need a password to see them? AttachmentMove, publish the image on a different hosting no password are required, the goal was to keeps user away for technical details. > Will we be able to selectively delete images when our disk space begins to fill up? Or will they all be stored in a single archive file? We're using cpanel, if that matters. Not storage management is coded yet, a cron with the good "find -mtime" could do the trick. It's in my idea to handle that too. > If anyone who's using this option could forward me a message from their list with a linked image so I can check how well it works, that would be greatly appreciated. I sent you an example we have made on the test list. Let me know if that meet your needs. Regards, Sylvain. From sylvain at opensource-expert.com Mon Jun 23 16:00:08 2014 From: sylvain at opensource-expert.com (Sylvain Viart) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 16:00:08 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrub_nondigest questions may be attachment-move custom handler In-Reply-To: <38A50E22-4CFC-4F69-B41D-01C0D43C9995@nuw.org.au> References: <53A7C43A.5070809@msapiro.net> <10E3F93A-CC84-4885-89A3-EF3ACFE68244@nuw.org.au> <53A7F3BC.5030808@opensource-expert.com> <38A50E22-4CFC-4F69-B41D-01C0D43C9995@nuw.org.au> Message-ID: <53A832E8.9030109@opensource-expert.com> Hi Peter, Le 23/06/2014 12:57, Peter Shute a ?crit : > I was testing that for you a few weeks ago. I just tried again, and it seems to work smoothly now. That's true, thanks. :-) You did just send a non html mail, right? AttachmentMove also support html formating. > Could that be made to automatically resize images? E.g. maximum dimensions 800x800 pixels. Yes it could. At the stage where the image is detached it can be manipulated, including stored on some image cloud storage with other feature, like albums for example. Given that storage as an API that a programmer can use to store the image remotely. With linux server there's plenty of tools for resizing image, with and without python. If you don't need the remote simplification of AttachmentMove, you may also look at ThunderBird cloud storage FileLink extension. Regards, Sylvain. From willi.uebelherr at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 17:59:26 2014 From: willi.uebelherr at gmail.com (willi uebelherr) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 10:59:26 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Internet Message Format: Identification Fields Message-ID: <53A84EDE.8030302@gmail.com> Dear friends, following the RFC 5322 all identification fields are optional. But they SHOULD have it. Of course, sometimes we need it. RFC 5322: Internet Message Format http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322 We have min 3 fields: message-id in-reply-to references With that, we can create all ordering of mails based on a thread. I think, it would be never a problem to use a new (little changed) message-id, because if the listserver send the mail, he changed it. And consequently, he create a new message-id (but for himself and for tracking it can be a modification of the original message-id). In the discussion on this list Mark and other people args, this would lead to a big confusion for the different mail clients. Is that true? I don't have the necessary oversight. But i think, you have it. The easest way would be a configuratin point for the user to decide, that his sended mail get a new message-id, if the listserver changed it when he send the mail. And this he always do it. many greetings, willi Panama City From ron at vnetworx.net Mon Jun 23 22:44:28 2014 From: ron at vnetworx.net (Ron Guerin) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 16:44:28 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: <53A62247.4000600@msapiro.net> References: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> <53A62247.4000600@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53A891AC.5040307@vnetworx.net> On 6/21/2014 8:24 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/21/2014 04:04 PM, Ron Guerin wrote: >> I'm struggling to find a palatable solution to the configuration of a >> list, and the new Yahoo-style DMARC problem. >> >> The list has mung on, as well as Reply-To: set to the list. The end >> result is nowhere does the original sender's address appear in the >> messages, when having them readily visible is the desired behavior. > > > In Mailman 2.1.18-1, the posters address will also be in Reply-To: with > Reply-To: set to the list. In Mailman 2.1.16 and 2.1.17, this wasn't the > case (I think only if first_strip_reply_to was Yes). > > >> I was wondering about asking someone to make a Mailman handler that >> would re-write the From: address after munging to: >> >> Jane Doe (jane at example.com) via listname >> >> My question now is, is there any reason why re-writing it this way would >> be a bad idea? > > > Yes. According to > : > > The inclusion of more than one domain in the RFC5322.From field is > dangerous. Recent studies by two major senders show that ~95% of all > cases in which there is one domain in the RFC5322.From "display name" > and different domain in the RFC5322.From "address-spec" are fraudulent. > This practice should be discouraged as there are efforts underway to > increase "spam scores" within inbound filtering when this is detected. I've been absorbing a lot of input about this and while the part of me that just wants to get things done still likes the idea of putting the address into the comment field, I'm finding the argument persuasive that as soon as people /expect/ to find a valid address in the comment field, the cold clammy hands of DMARC will choke that off too. I don't find the argument /valid/ mind you, as the comment field is the comment field, and no MUA (save ones with a very specific bug) are ever going to treat it as anything but a commment, but I completely believe that anything that reduces the pain of DMARC will eventually run afoul of DMARC. Now you tell me that it's actually a useful indicator of spamminess. That feels like the last nail in the coffin. > But, on the other hand, that's exactly what Yahoo Groups is doing, so > take your pick. > > If having the poster's address in Reply-To: would be satisfactory, try > setting first_strip_reply_to to No. That may be the least objectionable solution that's still "DMARC-friendly", but then I'm probably annoying subscribers who aren't using DMARC to reject mail their users asked for. > Changing CookHeaders to munge the from as you suggest is a very simple > patch. I have attached a 2.1.16/17 version. Note that even with this > patch, the bug at is > not completely fixed. Also note John's objection won't apply as this > will be formatted as > > "Jane Doe via listname" I had it in my mind before he mentioned it that I'd have to look into what triggers quoting of the comment field, but his input reassures me that it's not likely to cause other problems from a technical standpoint. From a social standpoint though, it seems to be an idea living on borrowed time. I would really like to do, as someone said earlier, just say "Friends don't let Friends use Yahoo or AOL Mail." But count me in with those expecting Gmail to be next. That's nearly half the subscribers of the list I've been asking in regard to. And thanks for sending code again, you're the best! - Ron From just.mailman at lesve.org Mon Jun 23 22:29:11 2014 From: just.mailman at lesve.org (just.mailman at lesve.org) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 22:29:11 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users with utf-8 In-Reply-To: <53A3CE8B.8050103@msapiro.net> References: <53A3CE8B.8050103@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53A88E17.9020501@lesve.org> I try to add member to maillist. ./add_members -r filename.txt listname in the file filename.txt it will exist a user like L?nn # Written as utf-8 When I look at memberlist afterwards at the web will it look like lonn at gmail.com L??nn # Written the utf-8 as two characters What is the problem and what is the solution /LeSve From mark at msapiro.net Tue Jun 24 00:56:29 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 15:56:29 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrub_nondigest questions In-Reply-To: <10E3F93A-CC84-4885-89A3-EF3ACFE68244@nuw.org.au> References: <53A7C43A.5070809@msapiro.net> <10E3F93A-CC84-4885-89A3-EF3ACFE68244@nuw.org.au> Message-ID: <53A8B09D.5040609@msapiro.net> On 06/23/2014 01:03 AM, Peter Shute wrote: > > Any idea if we'll have access to that area in cPanel? I'm not the list owner, I can't test it for myself. It depends. In cPanel all Mailman files including the archives/private/ directory are in /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/. If this is the list owner's server or VPS, etc, he probably has the required access. If his is one of multiple hosted domains on a shared server, he almost certainly doesn't. > And does the value of archive_volume_frequency affect where they're stored? No. >>> If anyone who's using this option could forward me a message from their list with a linked image so I can check how well it works, that would be greatly appreciated > > Thanks for sending the sample. You're welcome. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Jun 24 01:35:02 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 16:35:02 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Internet Message Format: Identification Fields In-Reply-To: <53A84EDE.8030302@gmail.com> References: <53A84EDE.8030302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53A8B9A6.4070504@msapiro.net> On 06/23/2014 08:59 AM, willi uebelherr wrote: > > > The easest way would be a configuratin point for the user to decide, > that his sended mail get a new message-id, if the listserver changed it > when he send the mail. And this he always do it. We have no plans or interest to change Mailman in this way for reasons already stated on this list. Your issue is with Gmail's "discard duplicate message" feature, which we don't agree with except perhaps as a Gmail user setting, but Google has no plan to change this as far as we know. Your choice is clear to me. If you don't like the way Gmail handles your list posts, subscribe and post from a non-gmail address. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Jun 24 01:54:43 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 16:54:43 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users with utf-8 In-Reply-To: <53A88E17.9020501@lesve.org> References: <53A3CE8B.8050103@msapiro.net> <53A88E17.9020501@lesve.org> Message-ID: <53A8BE43.5020805@msapiro.net> On 06/23/2014 01:29 PM, just.mailman at lesve.org wrote: > > I try to add member to maillist. > > ./add_members -r filename.txt listname > > in the file filename.txt it will exist a user like > L?nn # Written as utf-8 > > When I look at memberlist afterwards at the web will it look like > > lonn at gmail.com > L??nn # Written the utf-8 as two characters > > What is the problem and what is the solution The problem is Mailman's character set for the list's preferred_language is not utf-8, and the input files for add_members need to be encoded in Mailman's character set for the list's preferred_language. If you don't know Mailman's character set for the list's preferred language, see lines 1578 through 1616 at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From pshute at nuw.org.au Tue Jun 24 02:01:25 2014 From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 10:01:25 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrub_nondigest questions In-Reply-To: <53A8B09D.5040609@msapiro.net> References: <53A7C43A.5070809@msapiro.net> <10E3F93A-CC84-4885-89A3-EF3ACFE68244@nuw.org.au> <53A8B09D.5040609@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <1EB36561-E020-4A23-B4C8-E8881F34B9BC@nuw.org.au> >> On 24 Jun 2014, at 8:56 am, "Mark Sapiro" wrote: >> >> On 06/23/2014 01:03 AM, Peter Shute wrote: >> >> Any idea if we'll have access to that area in cPanel? I'm not the list owner, I can't test it for myself. > > > It depends. In cPanel all Mailman files including the archives/private/ > directory are in /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/. If this is the > list owner's server or VPS, etc, he probably has the required access. If > his is one of multiple hosted domains on a shared server, he almost > certainly doesn't. Ours is hosted. In this situation, what does one normally do? Ask the hosting company to delete them? Peter Shute From mark at msapiro.net Tue Jun 24 02:14:41 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 17:14:41 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrub_nondigest questions In-Reply-To: <1EB36561-E020-4A23-B4C8-E8881F34B9BC@nuw.org.au> References: <53A7C43A.5070809@msapiro.net> <10E3F93A-CC84-4885-89A3-EF3ACFE68244@nuw.org.au> <53A8B09D.5040609@msapiro.net> <1EB36561-E020-4A23-B4C8-E8881F34B9BC@nuw.org.au> Message-ID: <53A8C2F1.9090105@msapiro.net> On 06/23/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote: >> >> It depends. In cPanel all Mailman files including the archives/private/ >> directory are in /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/. If this is the >> list owner's server or VPS, etc, he probably has the required access. If >> his is one of multiple hosted domains on a shared server, he almost >> certainly doesn't. > > Ours is hosted. In this situation, what does one normally do? Ask the hosting company to delete them? Why bother? This file system belongs to the host. If it gets too full (unlikely), it's their problem. If they have some way of charging you for disk usage attributable to your list, then they should accommodate a request to remove some. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From rb211 at tds.net Tue Jun 24 02:11:24 2014 From: rb211 at tds.net (William Bagwell) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 20:11:24 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Internet Message Format: Identification Fields In-Reply-To: <53A8B9A6.4070504@msapiro.net> References: <53A84EDE.8030302@gmail.com> <53A8B9A6.4070504@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <201406232011.24931.rb211@tds.net> On Monday 23 June 2014, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Your choice is clear to me. If you don't like the way Gmail handles your > list posts, subscribe and post from a non-gmail address. Mark, off topic for *this* list though you might want to add this to the FAQ? willi, some web hosting servers will allow customers to post outgoing mail with any address you own. Even if it does not match the domain you have hosted with them. My ISP (.tds) address has been outsourced to Gmail for about five years. When this message returns to me Gmail will not discared it as a duplicate since they did not see it out bound. Only good solution I have found though it does cost $5 per month for hosting. Which I would have anyway just for my web site... -- William From willi.uebelherr at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 15:50:56 2014 From: willi.uebelherr at gmail.com (willi uebelherr) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 08:50:56 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Internet Message Format: Identification Fields In-Reply-To: <201406232011.24931.rb211@tds.net> References: <53A84EDE.8030302@gmail.com> <53A8B9A6.4070504@msapiro.net> <201406232011.24931.rb211@tds.net> Message-ID: <53A98240.7090401@gmail.com> Dear William and Mark and all, many thanks for your answer. I understand, that never you want to make any special action for a specific task for Gmail. But now, for me it is not a question of the specific "duplicate suppression" from google-mail. it is a more general debate about the principles of "Internet Message Format". i have have now many alternatives. 1) the proposal from Richard Damon 2) a second account on gmail 3) a non-gmail account like gmx (i have) or a new riseup account Many thanks for your proposals. But, please, let us discuss more about the principles. I don't analyse the sources from mailman and thunderbird to know on what points they use the message-id for what process. What header-fields use thunderbird for thread-ordering? Maybe, on this list read some people from the thunderbird developer group or from other mailtools to explain the needs. The message-id should be a unique id for a mail. The mail is a combination of the header and body. This two parts together build the specific mail. If you change one part, you create a new mail. Following of that, if mailman change the subject line or append a footer, it is a new mail and need a new message-id. Consequently, we can say, if the header of a mail is extended on his way from one client to the other client, an all chainpoints there are creating a new mail. Because they axtend the header with header fields for the in/out nodes. This is the result of the logic of the RFC 5322. I know, in our time we have a confuse situation. Many things from our history overlaped this logic. And the people for one single project are not part of the whole project, the mail processing in the internet. They work seperated and sometimes against. We can see, that hotmail create a wrong message-id in relation to RFC 5322. But is the syntactical structure important? I think no. Only the uniqueness, the singularity, is important. In my thinking i prefer that mailman can be a reference implementation for maillist-server. Because in principial, only a Open Source project can can fulfill this function. But this makes it necessary to reflect our own doing and to discuss the process algorithms on a open and free base. Committed only the basic fundamentals. And what i read from Mark i see, that he act in a personal defense against Gmail. And that is not good. I had the same positiob before. But now, i changed my thinking. I see, that the argumentation from bkennely is correct. And this is independent from, that he work for Google Gmail. mant thanks and many greetings, willi Panama City Am 06/23/2014 07:11 p.m., schrieb William Bagwell: > On Monday 23 June 2014, Mark Sapiro wrote: >> Your choice is clear to me. If you don't like the way Gmail handles your >> list posts, subscribe and post from a non-gmail address. > > Mark, off topic for *this* list though you might want to add this to the FAQ? > > willi, some web hosting servers will allow customers to post outgoing mail > with any address you own. Even if it does not match the domain you have > hosted with them. My ISP (.tds) address has been outsourced to Gmail for > about five years. When this message returns to me Gmail will not discared it > as a duplicate since they did not see it out bound. > > Only good solution I have found though it does cost $5 per month for hosting. > Which I would have anyway just for my web site... > From Richard at Damon-Family.org Wed Jun 25 01:42:06 2014 From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 19:42:06 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Internet Message Format: Identification Fields In-Reply-To: <53A98240.7090401@gmail.com> References: <53A84EDE.8030302@gmail.com> <53A8B9A6.4070504@msapiro.net> <201406232011.24931.rb211@tds.net> <53A98240.7090401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53AA0CCE.40301@Damon-Family.org> The internet protocols disagree on that minor modification create a new email. For instance, EVERY step of mail deliver is REQUIRED to change the headers of the message, so that would say every step should change the Message-ID, which distorts some of its use. The RFC's also say that if a message is received and immediately automatically forwarded, that is should retain the same Message-id. The case where changing the Message-ID like you are proposing will cause problems is this: A message is posted to the list. A person replies with a reply all, sending a reply directly to the original poster, and to the list, and asks the list for a new Message-ID Copies of that reply now exist with two different Message-Ids If the original poster now replies to the direct copy they got back to the list, the Reference headers will not point to the message it got that he replied to, so threading for ALL other members is broken. The problem being tried to solve is an unusual behavior by a given MUA. You don't break a fundamental rule of email to solve that problem, you get the MUA to behave the way you want, or change MUA. On 6/24/14, 9:50 AM, willi uebelherr wrote: > > Dear William and Mark and all, > > many thanks for your answer. I understand, that never you want to make > any special action for a specific task for Gmail. > > But now, for me it is not a question of the specific "duplicate > suppression" from google-mail. it is a more general debate about the > principles of "Internet Message Format". > > i have have now many alternatives. > 1) the proposal from Richard Damon > 2) a second account on gmail > 3) a non-gmail account like gmx (i have) or a new riseup account > > Many thanks for your proposals. > > But, please, let us discuss more about the principles. I don't analyse > the sources from mailman and thunderbird to know on what points they > use the message-id for what process. What header-fields use > thunderbird for thread-ordering? Maybe, on this list read some people > from the thunderbird developer group or from other mailtools to > explain the needs. > > The message-id should be a unique id for a mail. The mail is a > combination of the header and body. This two parts together build the > specific mail. If you change one part, you create a new mail. > > Following of that, if mailman change the subject line or append a > footer, it is a new mail and need a new message-id. Consequently, we > can say, if the header of a mail is extended on his way from one > client to the other client, an all chainpoints there are creating a > new mail. Because they axtend the header with header fields for the > in/out nodes. > > This is the result of the logic of the RFC 5322. > > I know, in our time we have a confuse situation. Many things from our > history overlaped this logic. And the people for one single project > are not part of the whole project, the mail processing in the > internet. They work seperated and sometimes against. > > We can see, that hotmail create a wrong message-id in relation to RFC > 5322. But is the syntactical structure important? I think no. Only the > uniqueness, the singularity, is important. > > In my thinking i prefer that mailman can be a reference implementation > for maillist-server. Because in principial, only a Open Source project > can can fulfill this function. But this makes it necessary to reflect > our own doing and to discuss the process algorithms on a open and free > base. Committed only the basic fundamentals. > > And what i read from Mark i see, that he act in a personal defense > against Gmail. And that is not good. I had the same positiob before. > But now, i changed my thinking. I see, that the argumentation from > bkennely is correct. And this is independent from, that he work for > Google Gmail. > > mant thanks and many greetings, willi > Panama City > -- Richard Damon From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Jun 25 03:35:09 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 10:35:09 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: <53A73DC7.1090405@gmail.com> References: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> <53A73DC7.1090405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <874mz9zs8i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> willi uebelherr writes: > now i think, it is clear. The feature "duplicate suppression" is a fix > mechanism. I will wait for the answers of the people from the > mailman-users list, what the say about. But in Gmail with a user > configuration never i can resolve the problem. That's right. GMail considers this a feature, and has consistently refused to even provide an option to receive copies of own mail. You may consider it embarrassing for GMail, but GMail clearly doesn't think it's a problem. If you don't like this feature, you will have to use a different mail service from GMail, or live with it. You may be able to work around it by fiddling with the subscription address as Richard suggests, but I bet it doesn't work (these are different names for the same mailbox). > Gmail follows the RFCs and treats the Message-ID as globally unique for > a particular version of the message. According to RFC5322, changing the > Message-ID is the correct way to identify a new revision of the message. This is absolutely correct. > In other words, if you consider the message sent from the mailing list > to be a different message, change the Message-ID. This is also correct. But only list admins really care about the difference between a direct copy and the copy distributed by Mailman, so it's a bad idea for Mailman to change the Message-ID. It probably won't be supported, unless convincing evidence is presented that there are cases where it won't confuse users and MUAs. From bsfinkel at att.net Wed Jun 25 03:51:38 2014 From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 20:51:38 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC Message-ID: <53AA2B2A.1070703@att.net> I have in one of my mailboxes a scam from June 10 that has From: Chase Notification In the web MUA I use for this account, only the display name Chase Notification is shown on the screen as the sender. DMARC obviously will not help in this case. I have no idea if the scammers are now avoiding using an e-mail address "..... at chase.com" because the address is not shown as the sender in some MUAs. --Barry Finkel From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Jun 25 04:04:27 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 11:04:27 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC handler In-Reply-To: <53A891AC.5040307@vnetworx.net> References: <53A60F96.6080504@vnetworx.net> <53A62247.4000600@msapiro.net> <53A891AC.5040307@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <8738etzqvo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Ron Guerin writes: > I would really like to do, as someone said earlier, just say "Friends > don't let Friends use Yahoo or AOL Mail." But count me in with those > expecting Gmail to be next. That's nearly half the subscribers of the > list I've been asking in regard to. I think GMail would have to consider using "p=reject" if they suffered a security breach like those at AOL and Yahoo!. However, so far they've kept their own counsel about respecting others' "p=reject", and the way the attackers went directly from Yahoo! to AOL, and then stopped, suggests they found GMail and Hotmail more difficult to crack. This may not just be an accident. The business models differ more or less, and GMail and Hotmail may be able to maintain a stronger security profile vs. "management" business initiatives. A second consideration is that the DMARC discussion group at IETF is working on ways to allow mailing lists to sign the posts they distribute, instead of depending only on the Author Domain's signature for authentication in case of an Author Domain's "p=reject". This is a very difficult problem involving certain risks (in particular, it's clearly ineffective against what are called "spear-phishing attacks"), but in GMail's user profile those risks might be acceptable to GMail. This does require that your MTA sign the posts you distribute after any list modifications, but IMO it's quite possible that GMail will allow lists to control their own destiny in that way, at least until proven ineffective. Of course that assumes that a draft gets widespread support and GMail decides to implement it. From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Jun 25 04:39:04 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 11:39:04 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Internet Message Format: Identification Fields In-Reply-To: <53AA0CCE.40301@Damon-Family.org> References: <53A84EDE.8030302@gmail.com> <53A8B9A6.4070504@msapiro.net> <201406232011.24931.rb211@tds.net> <53A98240.7090401@gmail.com> <53AA0CCE.40301@Damon-Family.org> Message-ID: <871tudzp9z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Richard Damon writes: > The internet protocols disagree on that minor modification create a new > email. No, they don't. There's only one RFC that matters, and that's RFC 5322 (or whichever version of that standard that you prefer, but on this they're basically in agreement). RFC 5322 says: In all cases, it is the meaning that the sender of the message wishes to convey (i.e., whether this is the same message or a different message) that determines whether or not the "Message-ID:" field changes, not any particular syntactic difference that appears (or does not appear) in the message. Here, "Sender" is ambiguous, it could be the OP or it could be Mailman. I think that since Mailman actually accepts the message and then decides whether or not to reinject it and in what form, probably Mailman is the sender referred to. In that sense, if willi really wants to give the message a new Message-Id, he may do that in conformance to the RFC. That is a statement on his part that his administrative needs override the risk to the users of the list, and that the list "owns" the posts it transmits. It's possible to imagine a situation where the risk is quite minimal. For example an announce list, or a list where only the list is allowed to appear among the addressees (but in the latter case the list can't know whether there were Bccs, so the risk is non-zero). The Mailman developer community considers that the role of Mailman is to convey the original poster's message to the users, in accordance with list policy, but that the "message content" should remain unchanged if the message is distributed at all. For that reason, most of us feel strongly that the Mailman program as distributed by the project should never change the Message-Id.[1] Mailman could add Resent-Message-Id (and other Resent-* headers) but in default configuration at least it doesn't. Still that wouldn't help to address the GMail MUA design issue. willi writes: > > But, please, let us discuss more about the principles. I don't analyse > > the sources from mailman and thunderbird to know on what points they > > use the message-id for what process. What header-fields use > > thunderbird for thread-ordering? Maybe, on this list read some people > > from the thunderbird developer group or from other mailtools to > > explain the needs. MUA developers mostly don't hang out here. As far as I know they all agree that Mailman does the right thing for them (as list users) and for their users, so they're not interested in Mailman development. I suspect that if Mailman started changing Message-Id, they'd show up in force. ;-) As far as I know all modern MUAs such as ThunderBird, Evolution, GMail, Yahoo! Mail, SquirrelMail, etc use Message-Id, References, and In-Reply-To for threading. I am certain that archiving programs (such as Mailman's Pipermail) and services like GMane and Mail-Archive.com do. > > The message-id should be a unique id for a mail. The mail is a > > combination of the header and body. This two parts together build > > the specific mail. If you change one part, you create a new mail. No, that's definitely an incorrect reading of RFC 5322. See above. Footnotes: [1] Although we may *add* one if somehow one arrives at Mailman without a Message-Id -- but this is extremely rare, as modern MTAs almost always add a Message-Id on the way to Mailman. From finches at portadmiral.org Wed Jun 25 04:30:54 2014 From: finches at portadmiral.org (Larry Finch) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 22:30:54 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC In-Reply-To: <53AA2B2A.1070703@att.net> References: <53AA2B2A.1070703@att.net> Message-ID: <9E4F0526-2A0F-431E-A96F-501192690A33@portadmiral.org> I've gotten a dozen or more similar phishing messages. Shows how effective DMARC is - NOT Regards Larry Sent from my iPad > On Jun 24, 2014, at 9:51 PM, "Barry S. Finkel" wrote: > > I have in one of my mailboxes a scam from June 10 that has > > From: Chase Notification > > In the web MUA I use for this account, only the display name > > Chase Notification > > is shown on the screen as the sender. DMARC obviously will not > help in this case. I have no idea if the scammers are now > avoiding using an e-mail address "..... at chase.com" because > the address is not shown as the sender in some MUAs. > > --Barry Finkel > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/finches%40portadmiral.org From Richard at Damon-Family.org Wed Jun 25 05:11:54 2014 From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 23:11:54 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: <874mz9zs8i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> <53A73DC7.1090405@gmail.com> <874mz9zs8i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <53AA3DFA.2000203@Damon-Family.org> On 6/24/14, 9:35 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > If you don't like this feature, you will have to use a different mail > service from GMail, or live with it. You may be able to work around > it by fiddling with the subscription address as Richard suggests, but > I bet it doesn't work (these are different names for the same mailbox). > Getting a second regular subscription won't do anything, but I was suggesting adding a DIGEST subscription, which will arrive (eventually) and thus giving you confirmation that the message did go through. -- Richard Damon From mark at msapiro.net Wed Jun 25 05:42:08 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 20:42:08 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] [discuss] configuration of the maillist server from 1net.org In-Reply-To: <53AA3DFA.2000203@Damon-Family.org> References: <539A1AB3.3070306@gmail.com> <53A73DC7.1090405@gmail.com> <874mz9zs8i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <53AA3DFA.2000203@Damon-Family.org> Message-ID: <53AA4510.6000306@msapiro.net> On 06/24/2014 08:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > > Getting a second regular subscription won't do anything, but I was > suggesting adding a DIGEST subscription, which will arrive (eventually) > and thus giving you confirmation that the message did go through. As a Gmail user you can get "immediate" confirmation that your post at least got to Mailman by setting your user option "Receive acknowledgement mail when you send mail to the list?" to Yes. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mangoo at wpkg.org Wed Jun 25 12:09:37 2014 From: mangoo at wpkg.org (Tomasz Chmielewski) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 12:09:37 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Mailman CGI error!!! Operation not permitted" - after upgrading Apache to 2.4 Message-ID: I've updated Apache to 2.4, and my mailman installation refuses to work with the following information: Mailman CGI error!!! The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is being stored in your syslog: Operation not permitted The only things I see in logs is basically the same as above: Jun 25 11:59:37 web1 Mailman cgi-wrapper (listinfo): Operation not permitted Jun 25 12:01:15 web1 Mailman cgi-wrapper (admin): Operation not permitted I've tried stracing Apache process to see where it might get permission issues, but I don't see anything like it. Does anyone have a clue how to fix it? -- Tomasz Chmielewski http://www.sslrack.com From mark at msapiro.net Wed Jun 25 16:59:30 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 07:59:30 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Mailman CGI error!!! Operation not permitted" - after upgrading Apache to 2.4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53AAE3D2.9090707@msapiro.net> On 06/25/2014 03:09 AM, Tomasz Chmielewski wrote: > I've updated Apache to 2.4, and my mailman installation refuses to work > with the following information: > > Mailman CGI error!!! > The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is > being stored in your syslog: > > Operation not permitted What if anything is in the Apache error_log? > The only things I see in logs is basically the same as above: > > Jun 25 11:59:37 web1 Mailman cgi-wrapper (listinfo): Operation not > permitted > Jun 25 12:01:15 web1 Mailman cgi-wrapper (admin): Operation not permitted > > > I've tried stracing Apache process to see where it might get permission > issues, but I don't see anything like it. > > Does anyone have a clue how to fix it? The cgi-wrapper is invoked by the web server. It checks the callers group and then calls scripts/driver which in turn runs the actual Mailman/Cgi/* script. Normally, exceptions encountered by the admin.py, listinfo.py, etc. script are reported by the driver with a full traceback. It seems in this case the driver script encounters the Operation not permitted exception either before or in the process of trying to print a traceback. See the comments at the beginning of scripts/driver. You can manually run as root or a user in Mailman's group export REQUEST_METHOD=GET python /path/to/scripts/driver listinfo and see what that produces. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mangoo at wpkg.org Wed Jun 25 17:32:19 2014 From: mangoo at wpkg.org (Tomasz Chmielewski) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 17:32:19 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Mailman CGI error!!! Operation not permitted" - after upgrading Apache to 2.4 In-Reply-To: <53AAE3D2.9090707@msapiro.net> References: <53AAE3D2.9090707@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <02ae23ca309f8d82692daedd45cb56f3@admin.virtall.com> On 2014-06-25 16:59, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/25/2014 03:09 AM, Tomasz Chmielewski wrote: >> I've updated Apache to 2.4, and my mailman installation refuses to >> work >> with the following information: >> >> Mailman CGI error!!! >> The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is >> being stored in your syslog: >> >> Operation not permitted > > > What if anything is in the Apache error_log? Absolutely nothing in Apache error_log. I found the cause: It works fine if I use apache2-mpm-prefork, but fails if I use apache2-mpm-itk[1]. ITK lets you choose a user which executes any given vhost and I prefer to run this version. With older Apache version, Mailman was working fine with Apache-ITK. Here, something's missing and doesn't work. I'll try your other suggestions to see if I can get more information. >> The only things I see in logs is basically the same as above: >> >> Jun 25 11:59:37 web1 Mailman cgi-wrapper (listinfo): Operation not >> permitted >> Jun 25 12:01:15 web1 Mailman cgi-wrapper (admin): Operation not >> permitted >> >> >> I've tried stracing Apache process to see where it might get >> permission >> issues, but I don't see anything like it. >> >> Does anyone have a clue how to fix it? > > > The cgi-wrapper is invoked by the web server. It checks the callers > group and then calls scripts/driver which in turn runs the actual > Mailman/Cgi/* script. > > Normally, exceptions encountered by the admin.py, listinfo.py, etc. > script are reported by the driver with a full traceback. > > It seems in this case the driver script encounters the Operation not > permitted exception either before or in the process of trying to print > a > traceback. > > See the comments at the beginning of scripts/driver. > > You can manually run as root or a user in Mailman's group > > export REQUEST_METHOD=GET > python /path/to/scripts/driver listinfo > > and see what that produces. [1] http://mpm-itk.sesse.net/ -- Tomasz Chmielewski http://www.sslrack.com From mark at msapiro.net Wed Jun 25 20:49:03 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 11:49:03 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Mailman CGI error!!! Operation not permitted" - after upgrading Apache to 2.4 In-Reply-To: <02ae23ca309f8d82692daedd45cb56f3@admin.virtall.com> References: <53AAE3D2.9090707@msapiro.net> <02ae23ca309f8d82692daedd45cb56f3@admin.virtall.com> Message-ID: <18becdf3-f4b9-437b-b9b4-851623b1094a@email.android.com> On June 25, 2014 8:32:19 AM PDT, Tomasz Chmielewski wrote: > >I found the cause: > > >It works fine if I use apache2-mpm-prefork, but fails if I use >apache2-mpm-itk[1]. Did you rebuild your mpm-itk module under Apache 2.4 or install an Apache 2.4 version of the module? -- Mark Sapiro Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. [Unpaid endorsement] From mangoo at wpkg.org Wed Jun 25 21:01:50 2014 From: mangoo at wpkg.org (Tomasz Chmielewski) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 21:01:50 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Mailman CGI error!!! Operation not permitted" - after upgrading Apache to 2.4 In-Reply-To: <18becdf3-f4b9-437b-b9b4-851623b1094a@email.android.com> References: <53AAE3D2.9090707@msapiro.net> <02ae23ca309f8d82692daedd45cb56f3@admin.virtall.com> <18becdf3-f4b9-437b-b9b4-851623b1094a@email.android.com> Message-ID: On 2014-06-25 20:49, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On June 25, 2014 8:32:19 AM PDT, Tomasz Chmielewski > wrote: >> >> I found the cause: >> >> >> It works fine if I use apache2-mpm-prefork, but fails if I use >> apache2-mpm-itk[1]. > > > Did you rebuild your mpm-itk module under Apache 2.4 or install an > Apache 2.4 version of the module? I'm using deb packages provided with Ubuntu 14.04 LTS. It works fine with all vhosts, except Mailman - not able to figure out why. -- Tomasz Chmielewski http://www.sslrack.com From malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk Wed Jun 25 23:41:27 2014 From: malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk (Malcolm Austen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 22:41:27 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? Message-ID: I won't call this a bug but I think it's an issue :-) This is with 2.1.18-1 which my provider updated to a few weeks ago. I have (via the GUI sender filters) dmarc_moderation_action set to 'munge from' and yet a post from aol.com went through unmunged (and caused 100+ subscribers to be disabled). I think (but may be wrong) the problem is that I also have(had) a spam filter set to catch all posts from ISPs with a bad spam/hacking/leaking history. This holds everything that matches: ^from:.*(aol|yahoo|hotmail|btinternet|btopenworld).* So, it appears to me that being held by this spam filter and then released by a moderator results in the message escaping the DMARC munging :-( My guess is that this is a natural consequence of the ordering of processing actions in the pipeline rather than a bug but it would be good to have confirmation from those who know the code. Thanks in advance, Malcolm. -- Malcolm Austen GENUKI trustee Oxfordshire FHS webmaster PUG chairman FFHS Communications Officer From mark at msapiro.net Thu Jun 26 00:32:23 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:32:23 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> On 06/25/2014 02:41 PM, Malcolm Austen wrote: > I won't call this a bug but I think it's an issue :-) It is an issue. I too am not sure whether it is a bug, but I think we need to do something about it. More below ... > I have (via the GUI sender filters) dmarc_moderation_action set to > 'munge from' and yet a post from aol.com went through unmunged (and > caused 100+ subscribers to be disabled). This implies that the list's bounce_score_threshold is <= 1.0 so that a member's delivery is disabled on the first bounce. This may be too agressive. Also, you may be interested in . > I think (but may be wrong) the problem is that I also have(had) a spam > filter set to catch all posts from ISPs with a bad spam/hacking/leaking > history. This holds everything that matches: > > ^from:.*(aol|yahoo|hotmail|btinternet|btopenworld).* > > So, it appears to me that being held by this spam filter and then > released by a moderator results in the message escaping the DMARC > munging :-( That is exactly what happened. header_filter_rules is processed by SpamDetect which is the first handler in the pipeline. The Munge From actions are actually done by CookHeaders and WrapMessage which process even moderator approved messages, but the check for dmarc_moderation_action is in Moderate which also processes member moderation and non-member actions. The Moderate process is bypassed if the message has already been approved. When we implemented dmarc_moderation_action, we deliberately didn't include Hold as an action, because we didn't think it made sense, so following that reasoning, we shouldn't skip at least the Munge From and Wrap Message actions on pre-approved messages because these are message transformation actions, not message disposition actions. What to do in the case of Reject or Discard is the question. If dmarc_moderation_action is say Reject and applies to this message, we shouldn't just accept the message because it has been pre-approved (probably without considering the consequences thereof). This leaves two choices. Either honor the dmarc_moderation_action which will possibly reject or discard a pre-approved post, or fall back to Wrap Message which may produce list messages in an undesired format. I have reported this at . I am interest in hearing either here or as bug comments what others think. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Thu Jun 26 05:11:19 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 12:11:19 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? In-Reply-To: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> References: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <878uokxt48.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mark Sapiro writes: > That is exactly what happened. header_filter_rules is processed by > SpamDetect which is the first handler in the pipeline. I see why Barry created Chains of Rules for MM3. This is messy. I think for this reason DMARC checking should come before spam detection, or be done as part of SpamDetect rather than moderation. If dmarc_moderation_action is reject/discard, let's not waste any further CPU cycles or queue space, let alone moderator time, on applicable messages. > This leaves two choices. Either honor the dmarc_moderation_action > which will possibly reject or discard a pre-approved post, or fall > back to Wrap Message which may produce list messages in an > undesired format. If the list's policy is to reject/discard, that's the policy. Consider what you're saying: 1. A message looks very spammy to SpamDetect. 2. The moderator sees it and decides otherwise. 3. The message is from a "p=reject" Author Domain and gets trashed. 4. List mourns. But! 1. A message looks legitimate to SpamDetect (because it *is*). 2. The moderator never sees it. 3. The message is from a "p=reject" Author Domain and gets trashed. 4. List rejoices. I should hope not! If you don't like legitimate message being trashed, don't set DMARC action to reject/discard, because that setting *will* result in legitimate messages being lost. From malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk Thu Jun 26 10:22:57 2014 From: malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk (Malcolm Austen) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 09:22:57 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? In-Reply-To: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> References: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 23:32:23 +0100, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/25/2014 02:41 PM, Malcolm Austen wrote: >> I won't call this a bug but I think it's an issue :-) > > It is an issue. I too am not sure whether it is a bug, but I think we > need to do something about it. More below ... Thanks Mark. For the time being I have removed AOL and Yahoo from that spam filter and marked all such addresses as 'moderated'. I'm guessing though that allowing them through would still escape the DMARC munging - so I've told the list that it's no longer accepting posts from AOL or Yahoo.com. (I note that neither yahoo.co.uk nor aol.co.uk have published a DMARC policy.) >> I have (via the GUI sender filters) dmarc_moderation_action set to >> 'munge from' and yet a post from aol.com went through unmunged (and >> caused 100+ subscribers to be disabled). > > This implies that the list's bounce_score_threshold is <= 1.0 so that a > member's delivery is disabled on the first bounce. This may be too > agressive. I'm not that mean :-) I should have made it clear that this message was the trigger rather than the lone cause. I did (before I had 2.1.18-1 available) toy with setting it high (c.9 or 10) and setting bounce_info_stale_after down to 1 so that I could let aol/yahoo posts out in a burst on one day and then hold them for a couple of days to clear the bounce scores. > Also, you may be interested in > . I would if I weren't restricted to the GUI :-( Thanks though, if think get tough though, I could probably get my provider to run the script for me. Thanks for all your (and others) work on mailman, Malcolm. -- Malcolm Austen GENUKI trustee Oxfordshire FHS webmaster PUG chairman FFHS Communications Officer From stephen at xemacs.org Thu Jun 26 10:50:51 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 17:50:51 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? In-Reply-To: References: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <87simsvytw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Malcolm Austen writes: > I did (before I had 2.1.18-1 available) toy with setting it high (c.9 or > 10) and setting bounce_info_stale_after down to 1 so that I could let > aol/yahoo posts out in a burst on one day and then hold them for a couple > of days to clear the bounce scores. Of course the people whose addresses bounce aren't receiving the messages. That doesn't seem great, even if they don't get disabled/ unsubscribed. From malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk Thu Jun 26 11:17:55 2014 From: malcolm.austen at weald.org.uk (Malcolm Austen) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 10:17:55 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? In-Reply-To: <87simsvytw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> <87simsvytw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 09:50:51 +0100, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Malcolm Austen writes: > > > I did (before I had 2.1.18-1 available) toy with setting it high (c.9 > or > > 10) and setting bounce_info_stale_after down to 1 so that I could let > > aol/yahoo posts out in a burst on one day and then hold them for a > couple > > of days to clear the bounce scores. > > Of course the people whose addresses bounce aren't receiving the > messages. That doesn't seem great, even if they don't get disabled/ > unsubscribed. Indeed. I tried all sorts of 'sideways thinking' but only solved side-effects, never the real problem. I did run the list anonymous for a while but some people objected to my requiring them (through emergency moderation) to include their name and email address in their signatures! = Malcolm. -- Malcolm Austen GENUKI trustee Oxfordshire FHS webmaster PUG chairman FFHS Communications Officer From mark at msapiro.net Thu Jun 26 15:52:10 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 06:52:10 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? In-Reply-To: <878uokxt48.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> <878uokxt48.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <53AC258A.2040608@msapiro.net> On 06/25/2014 08:11 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > I think for this reason DMARC checking should come before spam > detection, or be done as part of SpamDetect rather than moderation. > If dmarc_moderation_action is reject/discard, let's not waste any > further CPU cycles or queue space, let alone moderator time, on > applicable messages. Yes, that seems right to me. Thanks. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Jun 26 15:59:09 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 06:59:09 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? In-Reply-To: References: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53AC272D.9030801@msapiro.net> On 06/26/2014 01:22 AM, Malcolm Austen wrote: > > Thanks Mark. For the time being I have removed AOL and Yahoo from that > spam filter and marked all such addresses as 'moderated'. I'm guessing > though that allowing them through would still escape the DMARC munging - > so I've told the list that it's no longer accepting posts from AOL or > Yahoo.com. With 2.1.18-1, if a post is held because it's from a moderated member and is subsequently approved, dmarc_moderation_action will apply. If the post is From: a p=reject domain and dmarc_moderation_action is Munge >From or Wrap Message, those will apply to the post after approval and if dmarc_moderation_action is Reject or Discard, that will be done before the message is held for 'moderated member'. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From markr at signal100.com Thu Jun 26 21:01:43 2014 From: markr at signal100.com (Mark Rousell) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 20:01:43 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? In-Reply-To: References: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53AC6E17.7050806@signal100.com> On 26/06/2014 09:22, Malcolm Austen wrote: > (I note that neither yahoo.co.uk nor aol.co.uk have published a DMARC > policy.) As a relevant aside, AOL in the UK was sold to TalkTalk a couple of years ago so is independent of AOL in the USA. I note that the aol.co.uk domain is still owned by AOL Inc. in the USA so I presume it is used by TalkTalk under licence (if they use still use the domain -- I don't know if they do or not). -- Mark Rousell PGP public key: http://www.signal100.com/markr/pgp Key ID: C9C5C162 From stephen at xemacs.org Fri Jun 27 01:54:52 2014 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 08:54:52 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? In-Reply-To: <53AC6E17.7050806@signal100.com> References: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> <53AC6E17.7050806@signal100.com> Message-ID: <87pphvw7jn.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mark Rousell writes: > On 26/06/2014 09:22, Malcolm Austen wrote: > > (I note that neither yahoo.co.uk nor aol.co.uk have published a DMARC > > policy.) > > As a relevant aside, AOL in the UK was sold to TalkTalk a couple of > years ago so is independent of AOL in the USA. yahoo.com says the same thing ("independent") about yahoo.co.jp (which is definitely in use, but -- much to my amusement -- seriously decreased since mid-April). Evidently they do make their own decisions about things like "p=reject" but I find it hard to believe they're fully independent. AOL OTOH never managed to achieve a presence in Japan at all, although it appears they still own aol.co.jp domain. Both AOL sites are in use and use the AOL look and feel. Steve From markr at signal100.com Fri Jun 27 03:50:38 2014 From: markr at signal100.com (Mark Rousell) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 02:50:38 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A DMARC munging issue ... ? In-Reply-To: <87pphvw7jn.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <53AB4DF7.9040205@msapiro.net> <53AC6E17.7050806@signal100.com> <87pphvw7jn.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <53ACCDEE.6050802@signal100.com> On 27/06/2014 00:54, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Mark Rousell writes: > > > On 26/06/2014 09:22, Malcolm Austen wrote: > > > (I note that neither yahoo.co.uk nor aol.co.uk have published a DMARC > > > policy.) > > > > As a relevant aside, AOL in the UK was sold to TalkTalk a couple of > > years ago so is independent of AOL in the USA. > > yahoo.com says the same thing ("independent") about yahoo.co.jp (which > is definitely in use, but -- much to my amusement -- seriously > decreased since mid-April). Evidently they do make their own > decisions about things like "p=reject" but I find it hard to believe > they're fully independent. AOL OTOH never managed to achieve a > presence in Japan at all, although it appears they still own aol.co.jp > domain. > > Both AOL sites are in use and use the AOL look and feel. Yup, AOL continues to provide web properties in its own name in the UK. Nevertheless, the sale of AOL UK's ISP operations to TalkTalk was/is definitely a real sale. It seems unlikely to me that AOL in the USA would have any say now in TalkTalk's/AOL UK's ISP mail operations. A news articles from 2006 when the deal was done: http://news.techworld.com/mobile-wireless/7076/troubled-talktalk-buys-aol-uk/ The TalkTalk Wikipedia article also mentions it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TalkTalk_Group -- Mark Rousell PGP public key: http://www.signal100.com/markr/pgp Key ID: C9C5C162 From jane at chem.ubc.ca Thu Jun 26 19:22:54 2014 From: jane at chem.ubc.ca (Jane Cua) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 10:22:54 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Q: email moderation Message-ID: <53AC56EE.4010209@chem.ubc.ca> Hi, Mailman version: 2.1.12-18 host: RH6 64-bit I have set up to hold non-member sender to a mailing list in mailman, I can see the message being help. But the moderator does not get an email notice right away, I would take a day before the moderator receives the moderation request. Where should I set it so that the moderation email is sent right away as soon as mailman receives the email from a non-member? -- Cheers! Jane From lauren.baird at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 01:48:14 2014 From: lauren.baird at gmail.com (Lauren Baird) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 09:48:14 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman ui only running on localhost 127.0.0.1 Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I'm new to Python, Mailman and Virtual Environments so please excuse any silly questions... I have an existing python app running on my webserver at: subdomain.mydomain.com I have additionally installed mailman and the ui which is available on port 8000 via lynx on the command line at: lynx 127.0.0.1:8000 I had to install this in a virtual environment as the python version was different to the original app/what was available in yum. What I can't do is now get mailman's ui to show up on anything but the localhost. How do I direct either subdomain.mydomain.com:8000 or subdomain2.mydomain.com to the mailman interface? I can't quite seem to work out why its only listening on localhost: > netstat -anp | grep 80 tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1:8000 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN 3780/python tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1:8001 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN 2608/python tcp 0 0 :::80 :::* LISTEN 3849/httpd Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Lauren From mark at msapiro.net Fri Jun 27 16:01:46 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:01:46 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Q: email moderation In-Reply-To: <53AC56EE.4010209@chem.ubc.ca> References: <53AC56EE.4010209@chem.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <53AD794A.6000904@msapiro.net> On 06/26/2014 10:22 AM, Jane Cua wrote: > > Where should I set it so that the moderation email is sent right away as > soon as mailman receives the email from a non-member? On the list's web admin General Options page in the Notifications section set admin_immed_notify to Yes. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Fri Jun 27 16:35:53 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:35:53 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman ui only running on localhost 127.0.0.1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53AD8149.909@msapiro.net> On 06/26/2014 04:48 PM, Lauren Baird wrote: > > I have an existing python app running on my webserver at: > subdomain.mydomain.com > I have additionally installed mailman and the ui which is available on port > 8000 via lynx on the command line at: > lynx 127.0.0.1:8000 > I had to install this in a virtual environment as the python version was > different to the original app/what was available in yum. What process is listening at 127.0.0.1:8000 and serving the Mailman web UI? > What I can't do is now get mailman's ui to show up on anything but the > localhost. > How do I direct either > > subdomain.mydomain.com:8000 > or > subdomain2.mydomain.com > > to the mailman interface? Configure your web server that serves those domains to invoke Mailman's CGI wrappers for Mailman's URLs. See . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gordon at dickens.com Fri Jun 27 20:22:32 2014 From: gordon at dickens.com (Gordon Dickens) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 14:22:32 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not showing sender's name for DMARC domain policy=reject Message-ID: <53ADB668.5060704@dickens.com> Hello, I am runningseveral mailing lists with mailman version 2.1.18-1. Oneof my mailing lists does not ever show the sender's name in the From: headerfor DMARC domain policy=reject while the rest of my lists do show the sender's name in the From: header. I have compared the individual list settings and cannot find anything different. The list settings for the list that isn't showing the sender's name are as follows_: _General Options: from_is_list = No anonymous_list = No first_strip_reply_to = No reply_goes_to_list = "This list" Privacy options > Sender filters: dmarc_moderation_action = Munge From dmarc_quarantine_moderation_action = Yes My understanding is that one of the following should be displayed for a DMARC domainpolicy=reject: The author's display name fromtheir From: header or; If none and from a list member, the members real name from the membership list or; If none, at least the local part of the emailaddress. Does anybody have any idea what setting that I need to change to fix this? Thanks, Gordon From mark at msapiro.net Fri Jun 27 23:29:10 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 14:29:10 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not showing sender's name for DMARC domain policy=reject In-Reply-To: <53ADB668.5060704@dickens.com> References: <53ADB668.5060704@dickens.com> Message-ID: <53ADE226.5020209@msapiro.net> On 06/27/2014 11:22 AM, Gordon Dickens wrote: > Hello, > > I am runningseveral mailing lists with mailman version 2.1.18-1. Oneof > my mailing lists does not ever show the sender's name in the From: > headerfor DMARC domain policy=reject while the rest of my lists do show > the sender's name in the From: header. I have compared the individual > list settings and cannot find anything different. The list settings for > the list that isn't showing the sender's name are as follows_: > > _General Options: > > from_is_list = No > anonymous_list = No > first_strip_reply_to = No > reply_goes_to_list = "This list" > > Privacy options > Sender filters: > > dmarc_moderation_action = Munge From > dmarc_quarantine_moderation_action = Yes > > My understanding is that one of the following should be displayed for a > DMARC domainpolicy=reject: > > The author's display name fromtheir From: header > or; > If none and from a list member, the members real name from the > membership list > or; > If none, at least the local part of the emailaddress. This understanding is correct. > Does anybody have any idea what setting that I need to change to fix this? It should work with the settings you have. If you look at the raw message source of one of these messages from the list, what does the From: look like? Is it From: via LISTNAME with only a single space between 'From:' and 'via' or something else? Also, what is in the Reply-To: header in addition to the list posting address? There is a bug in this area. See . If these posts are all from a single user, it could be due to a missing or unparseable From: header in the incoming mail. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From jane at chem.ubc.ca Fri Jun 27 23:37:41 2014 From: jane at chem.ubc.ca (Jane Cua) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 14:37:41 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Q: email moderation In-Reply-To: <53AD794A.6000904@msapiro.net> References: <53AC56EE.4010209@chem.ubc.ca> <53AD794A.6000904@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53ADE425.3080405@chem.ubc.ca> Hi Mark, Thank you very much. It is now working. Cheers! Jane On 06/27/2014 7:01 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/26/2014 10:22 AM, Jane Cua wrote: >> Where should I set it so that the moderation email is sent right away as >> soon as mailman receives the email from a non-member? > > On the list's web admin General Options page in the Notifications > section set admin_immed_notify to Yes. > From gordon at dickens.com Sat Jun 28 00:11:34 2014 From: gordon at dickens.com (Gordon Dickens) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 18:11:34 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not showing sender's name for DMARC domain policy=reject In-Reply-To: <53ADE226.5020209@msapiro.net> References: <53ADB668.5060704@dickens.com> <53ADE226.5020209@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <53ADEC16.9070102@dickens.com> Hi Mark, Thanks for the prompt reply! The problem was my settings in my Thunderbird mail client and NOT mailman. So, you can mark this as solved! As you suggested, I checked the From: field in the message source and it was including the sender's "name via" as it should. I then checked it with my webmail clients, Squirrelmail and Horde, which also properly displayed the sender's name. Then, I discovered a setting in Thunderbird which caused my problem at: Edit > Preferences > Advanced > "Show only display name for people in my address book" which was checked. When I unchecked this then the sender's name started showing up properly in Thunderbird too. The problem was caused by my having that specific mailing list address in my Thunderbird address book whereas all of my other mailing lists are not in my address book. This may help y'all in the future for Thunderbird users since having that preference checked is the default Thunderbird setting and will prevent the sender's name from appearing in the From: header for mailing lists that are in the Thunderbird address book. Again, thanks for your reply. Your suggestion sent me directly to the cause of the problem. Gordon On 06/27/2014 05:29 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 06/27/2014 11:22 AM, Gordon Dickens wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I am runningseveral mailing lists with mailman version 2.1.18-1. Oneof >> my mailing lists does not ever show the sender's name in the From: >> headerfor DMARC domain policy=reject while the rest of my lists do show >> the sender's name in the From: header. I have compared the individual >> list settings and cannot find anything different. The list settings for >> the list that isn't showing the sender's name are as follows_: >> >> _General Options: >> >> from_is_list = No >> anonymous_list = No >> first_strip_reply_to = No >> reply_goes_to_list = "This list" >> >> Privacy options > Sender filters: >> >> dmarc_moderation_action = Munge From >> dmarc_quarantine_moderation_action = Yes >> >> My understanding is that one of the following should be displayed for a >> DMARC domainpolicy=reject: >> >> The author's display name fromtheir From: header >> or; >> If none and from a list member, the members real name from the >> membership list >> or; >> If none, at least the local part of the emailaddress. > This understanding is correct. > > >> Does anybody have any idea what setting that I need to change to fix this? > It should work with the settings you have. > > If you look at the raw message source of one of these messages from the > list, what does the From: look like? Is it > > From: via LISTNAME > > with only a single space between 'From:' and 'via' or something else? > Also, what is in the Reply-To: header in addition to the list posting > address? > > There is a bug in this area. See > . If these posts are > all from a single user, it could be due to a missing or unparseable > From: header in the incoming mail. > From list.mailman-users.001 at brightworks.com Sat Jun 28 15:01:06 2014 From: list.mailman-users.001 at brightworks.com (Douglas McCarroll) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:01:06 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems making list anonymous Message-ID: Hi All, I'd like to insure that sender's email addresses don't appear in any headers. I've set both anonymous_list and first_strip_reply_to to true. Despite this, I'm seeing the following when I view headers: X-Original-To: myaddress at mydomain.com Received: from zapata.dreamhost.com (zapata.dreamhost.com [66.33.216.56]) by homiemail-mx17.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E6524115BD16 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2014 05:05:57 -0700 (PDT) How can I prevent this? Thanks, Douglas From list.mailman-users.001 at brightworks.com Sat Jun 28 16:58:21 2014 From: list.mailman-users.001 at brightworks.com (Douglas McCarroll) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:58:21 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems making list anonymous Message-ID: Never mind. This was my mistake. Those headers are added by my webhost when it receives the email from the list. Yes, I feel a little silly for so completely misunderstanding what was going on... :) From mlnospam at yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 22:35:41 2014 From: mlnospam at yahoo.com (ML mail) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 13:35:41 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installing v3.0.0b4 on Debian 7 Message-ID: <1404074141.673.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi, I am trying to install version 3.0.0b4 of Mailman on Debian 7 and for that purpose I took the original tar.gz file and ran: sudo python setup.py install There was an issue with the version of zope.interface which I resolved by running the following command: sudo pip install -U zope.interface Now Mailman got correctly installed but when doesn't seem to run. This is the output when I run the mailman command on its own: Traceback (most recent call last): ? File "/usr/local/bin/mailman", line 9, in ??? load_entry_point('mailman==3.0.0b4', 'console_scripts', 'mailman')() ? File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/setuptools-5.3-py2.7.egg/pkg_resources.py", line 356, in load_entry_point ??? return get_distribution(dist).load_entry_point(group, name) ? File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/setuptools-5.3-py2.7.egg/pkg_resources.py", line 2439, in load_entry_point ??? return ep.load() ? File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/setuptools-5.3-py2.7.egg/pkg_resources.py", line 2155, in load ??? ['__name__']) ? File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/mailman-3.0.0b4-py2.7.egg/mailman/bin/mailman.py", line 34, in ??? from mailman.core.initialize import initialize ? File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/mailman-3.0.0b4-py2.7.egg/mailman/core/initialize.py", line 43, in ??? from zope.component import getUtility ? File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/zope.component-4.2.1-py2.7.egg/zope/component/__init__.py", line 19, in ??? from zope.interface import named Does anyone have an idea what is going wrong? Did I maybe forgot to do something or am I missing anything? Thanks for the hints Regards ML From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 30 16:19:43 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 07:19:43 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installing v3.0.0b4 on Debian 7 In-Reply-To: <1404074141.673.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1404074141.673.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53B171FF.1090305@msapiro.net> On 06/29/2014 01:35 PM, ML mail wrote: > Hi, > > I am trying to install version 3.0.0b4 of Mailman on Debian 7 and for that purpose I took the original tar.gz file and ran: > > sudo python setup.py install > > There was an issue with the version of zope.interface which I resolved by running the following command: > > sudo pip install -U zope.interface > > Now Mailman got correctly installed but when doesn't seem to run. This is the output when I run the mailman command on its own: I saw a similar issue at one point. I *think* I fixed it by completely removing zope.interface and rerunning python setup.py install, letting it install the zope.interface package it wanted. That said, I'm not really working on MM 3 at this point and most of the MM 3 folks are better found on mailman-developers at python.org. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From jmck at ece.cmu.edu Mon Jun 30 18:57:32 2014 From: jmck at ece.cmu.edu (Jim McKinney) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 12:57:32 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Users] custom message for banned address Message-ID: <53B196FC.2000108@ece.cmu.edu> Hi, We're currently running Mailman 2.1.12 I have been asked if we can customized message for addresses that are banned on certain lists, similar to the ability to customize postheld.txt for specific lists. We have a group of lists that we would like to limit membership to our domain but would like to have a little more explanation than the default message provides. For the general case the default is fine, but for a subset some customizing would great. I did some looking around in the source tree and this doesn't seem that this is possible, but I don't claim to be a Python expert, so it seems worth checking. Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions. thanx -jmck From mark at msapiro.net Mon Jun 30 23:42:08 2014 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 14:42:08 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] custom message for banned address In-Reply-To: <53B196FC.2000108@ece.cmu.edu> References: <53B196FC.2000108@ece.cmu.edu> Message-ID: <53B1D9B0.4080309@msapiro.net> On 06/30/2014 09:57 AM, Jim McKinney wrote: > Hi, > > We're currently running Mailman 2.1.12 > > I have been asked if we can customized message for addresses that are > banned on certain lists, similar to the ability to customize > postheld.txt for specific lists. We have a group of lists that we would > like to limit membership to our domain but would like to have a little > more explanation than the default message provides. For the general > case the default is fine, but for a subset some customizing would great. The short answer is No. The current messages are coded in more than one module and are not all the same, but for your purposes, Mailman/Cgi/subscribe.py for web subscribes and Mailman/Commands/cmd_subscribe.py for email subscribes would probably cover it. These modules make no provision for list specific messages, so doing so would require altering the modules. It is possible to globally change the messages without modifying code, by creating the path and file messages/en/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po containing something like the attached edited for your desired messages and then compiling it with ~mailman/bin/msgfmt ~mailman/messages/en/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan