From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct  1 17:26:10 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2014 08:26:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman List Unsubscribe notification
In-Reply-To: <CA+1jXL2qCb0+d1UfJUTmYwz-5Jz03ZhJiJPB58mC_BdUe7Tbeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+1jXL2qCb0+d1UfJUTmYwz-5Jz03ZhJiJPB58mC_BdUe7Tbeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <542C1D12.8050403@msapiro.net>

On 09/30/2014 10:19 AM, Srinivas B. wrote:
> 
> On one of our lists, I have noticed a bunch of unsubscribe-notifications.
> Is there a way to turn-off this automated unsubscribe of members?


Presumably these users are unsubscribed by bounce processing. Do you
really want to keep undeliverable addresses on your list?

If so, just set the list's bounce_processing to No.

This could possibly be a DMARC issue if you have posts to your list
From: addresses at aol.com or yahoo.com. If soo, see the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/ggARAQ>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From srinivasb at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 18:31:49 2014
From: srinivasb at gmail.com (Srinivas B.)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2014 09:31:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman List Unsubscribe notification
In-Reply-To: <542C1D12.8050403@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+1jXL2qCb0+d1UfJUTmYwz-5Jz03ZhJiJPB58mC_BdUe7Tbeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <542C1D12.8050403@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+1jXL26DKea_Hp7tEePYCrKvNewDFo1cjWP_8GOV5Vx_Z158A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mark

I have noticed lots of bounces and set the automated bounce-processing to
"No" in order to stop it. But then I have seen few more unsubscriptions
thru bounce processing. Is this simply a residual bounces of some sort or
the setting isn't working? I will continue to monitor on the list to see
what happens. Thanks.


-Srinivas


On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 09/30/2014 10:19 AM, Srinivas B. wrote:
> >
> > On one of our lists, I have noticed a bunch of unsubscribe-notifications.
> > Is there a way to turn-off this automated unsubscribe of members?
>
>
> Presumably these users are unsubscribed by bounce processing. Do you
> really want to keep undeliverable addresses on your list?
>
> If so, just set the list's bounce_processing to No.
>
> This could possibly be a DMARC issue if you have posts to your list
> From: addresses at aol.com or yahoo.com. If soo, see the FAQ at
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/ggARAQ>.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/srinivasb%40gmail.com
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct  2 02:54:39 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2014 17:54:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman List Unsubscribe notification
In-Reply-To: <CA+1jXL26DKea_Hp7tEePYCrKvNewDFo1cjWP_8GOV5Vx_Z158A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+1jXL2qCb0+d1UfJUTmYwz-5Jz03ZhJiJPB58mC_BdUe7Tbeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <542C1D12.8050403@msapiro.net>
 <CA+1jXL26DKea_Hp7tEePYCrKvNewDFo1cjWP_8GOV5Vx_Z158A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <542CA24F.3000004@msapiro.net>

On 10/01/2014 09:31 AM, Srinivas B. wrote:
> 
> I have noticed lots of bounces and set the automated bounce-processing
> to "No" in order to stop it. But then I have seen few more
> unsubscriptions thru bounce processing. Is this simply a residual
> bounces of some sort or the setting isn't working? I will continue to
> monitor on the list to see what happens. Thanks.


Once a list member's delivery is disabled by bounce, Mailman's
cron/disabled will continue to send warning notices and eventually
remove the member regardless of whether or not bounce processing is on
for the list.

If you want to stop this process see the script at
<http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/reset_bounce.py> (mirrored at
<http://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/reset_bounce.py>) for a way to
re-enable delivery for those members whose delivery is disabled by bounce.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mailman at rissel.it  Fri Oct  3 00:34:07 2014
From: mailman at rissel.it (Sascha Rissel)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2014 00:34:07 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Requesting Mailman admin pages with different
	server domains
Message-ID: <CAKGvnEAaemR+u_jWp8qa_-+stM4OFqZuphed2pFCwr-PuAz2hQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am running several Mailman lists on a vServer, where the admin pages are
called via
http://lists.<vServerID>.<vserverhost>.de/mailman/admin/<listname>
All is running fine, with this domain configuration.

The server is maintained by Plesk 12.
Now I configured a nice own domain, like: <mydomain>.de
And I setup an Apache Virtual Host with (among other settings):
ServerName lists
ServerAlias lists.*
ScriptAlias "/mailman/" "/usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/"
ScriptAlias "/cgi-bin/mailman/" "/usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/"
which allows to call the lists admin pages via
http://lists.<mydomain>.de/mailman/admin/<listname>.

At first instance, this works.
But once I click on any link within Mailman's admin interface, the pages
are requested via the previous (not so nice) URL
http://*lists.<vServerID>.<vserverhost>*.de/cgi-bin/mailman/...

How can I avoid generating these kinds of URLs? This also means,
authentication cookies are not valid, since the domain changes.
I'd like to keep the URL's domain structure I initially called the admin
interface with, i.e.
http://lists.<mydomain>.de/...

It's like Mailman is creating absolute URLs, instead of just relative ones!?

In advance, thanks for your help!
Sascha.

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct  3 01:07:27 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:07:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Requesting Mailman admin pages with different
 server domains
In-Reply-To: <CAKGvnEAaemR+u_jWp8qa_-+stM4OFqZuphed2pFCwr-PuAz2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKGvnEAaemR+u_jWp8qa_-+stM4OFqZuphed2pFCwr-PuAz2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <542DDAAF.3010709@msapiro.net>

On 10/02/2014 03:34 PM, Sascha Rissel wrote:
> 
> The server is maintained by Plesk 12.
> Now I configured a nice own domain, like: <mydomain>.de
> And I setup an Apache Virtual Host with (among other settings):
> ServerName lists
> ServerAlias lists.*
> ScriptAlias "/mailman/" "/usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/"
> ScriptAlias "/cgi-bin/mailman/" "/usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/"
> which allows to call the lists admin pages via
> http://lists.<mydomain>.de/mailman/admin/<listname>.
> 
> At first instance, this works.
> But once I click on any link within Mailman's admin interface, the pages
> are requested via the previous (not so nice) URL
> http://*lists.<vServerID>.<vserverhost>*.de/cgi-bin/mailman/...
> 
> How can I avoid generating these kinds of URLs? This also means,
> authentication cookies are not valid, since the domain changes.
> I'd like to keep the URL's domain structure I initially called the admin
> interface with, i.e.
> http://lists.<mydomain>.de/...


See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/tIA9>,
<http://wiki.list.org/x/gIA9> and <http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9>.


> It's like Mailman is creating absolute URLs, instead of just relative ones!?


There is a bug in Mailman versions older than 2.1.12 that caused
relative URLs to never be generated, but more likely, the issue is your
not having done the things in FAQs <http://wiki.list.org/x/gIA9> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From wetz.peter at gmail.com  Sat Oct  4 18:25:33 2014
From: wetz.peter at gmail.com (Peter Wetz)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2014 18:25:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML content from GMX gets scrubbed in archive
Message-ID: <CAGmyAkAqZ7-_czSq50Nz2Kn90REnbnEkFDwXeUUJf2DbUrevGw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

I have an issue with my mailman/pipermail setup.

the thing is that mails, which were sent to the list as HTML and through
the GMX web interface, do not get displayed properly in my archive.
this is how it looks: http://i.imgur.com/H8vvUfV.png

even though the screenshot is in german language you should recognize, that
the html content gets scrubbed. obviously, the whole content of the mail
gets scrubbed, since it's written in html. so, the archive does only show a
link to the scrubbed html-content which then shows the mail-content.

however, i would like to display the html text directly in the archive
without having to click on the "scrubbed attachment" link.

i already changed "ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER = 3", which had only one effect:
the html still gets scrubbed to an attachment. when i click on the link to
the attachment in the archive, I see the rendered html content. before set
ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER to 3, I saw the html source of the mail when
clicking on the attachment.

one further information: filtering is disabled on the list.

any help is appreciated. the simple question is: how can html-mails be
properly displayed in the pipermail-archive without any scrubbing..?

thanks.

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct  5 16:51:09 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2014 07:51:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML content from GMX gets scrubbed in archive
In-Reply-To: <CAGmyAkAqZ7-_czSq50Nz2Kn90REnbnEkFDwXeUUJf2DbUrevGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGmyAkAqZ7-_czSq50Nz2Kn90REnbnEkFDwXeUUJf2DbUrevGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54315ADD.7010700@msapiro.net>

On 10/04/2014 09:25 AM, Peter Wetz wrote:
> 
> any help is appreciated. the simple question is: how can html-mails be
> properly displayed in the pipermail-archive without any scrubbing..?


Presumably you read the documentation for ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER in
Defaults.py when you set it to 3 including the "Note: this is very
dangerous ..." part of the description of the "3" setting. Did you also
read the next paragraph which says "Note: given the current archiving
code, it is not possible to leave text/html parts inline and un-escaped.
 I wouldn't think it'd be a good idea to do anyway."?

So the answer to your simple question is simply "you can't".

See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/coA9> for some alternatives.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From argybard at openmailbox.org  Mon Oct  6 17:24:51 2014
From: argybard at openmailbox.org (argybard at openmailbox.org)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2014 15:24:51 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Shellshock status
Message-ID: <ab88717ea6b548cd34ab1be517f9f5c9@openmailbox.org>

Good Morning everyone

Has there been an official word as to whether Mailman has been affected 
by the recent bash bugs, aka shellshock

Mailman is listed here https://github.com/mubix/shellshocker-pocs and I 
wonder what developers think?

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct  7 04:14:47 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2014 19:14:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML content from GMX gets scrubbed in archive
In-Reply-To: <CAGmyAkBavhiZ8_FvW_AxC_Kpz5ZxZ17AUAxvYUWB1ufiOJYCqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGmyAkAqZ7-_czSq50Nz2Kn90REnbnEkFDwXeUUJf2DbUrevGw@mail.gmail.com>	<54315ADD.7010700@msapiro.net>
 <CAGmyAkBavhiZ8_FvW_AxC_Kpz5ZxZ17AUAxvYUWB1ufiOJYCqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54334C97.3080504@msapiro.net>

On 10/06/2014 04:20 AM, Peter Wetz wrote:
>     So the answer to your simple question is simply "you can't".
> 
> 
> maybe my use of "how can html-mails be properly displayed" was
> misleading. i dont want any html formatting to be preserved. i simply
> want an html mail be converted to plain text and then get shown in the
> archive without any scrubbed attachments. is that possible?
> 
> i think that my problem is more specific: when i write an HTML mail from
> gmail to my list, it gets archived properly, i.e., i can see the html as
> plain text. all is fine. however, when I sent an html mail via the web
> interface of the popular freemail gmx, the message's html get scrubbed
> as an attachment and nothing is schon besides the scrubbed attachment.
> 
> why is it working with html mails from gmail and why isn't it working
> with html mails from gmx?


Last question first. The mail from gmail is multipart/alternative with
text/plain and text/html alternative parts. The archiver still scrubs
the text/html part and replaces it with a link, but there is also the
text/plain part which is archived inline.

The mail from gmx is html only, so there is no text/plain part to
archive inline.

You can accomplish what you want in the archives using Mailman's content
filtering, but this will also affect posts delivered to the list
members. If that is acceptable, you want the following in the lists
Content filtering settings.

filter_content = Yes

filter_mime_types -> totally empty, not even any whitespace

pass_mime_types -> at least the following 3 lines, maybe more if you
want to allow other attachment types.

multipart
text/plain
text/html

filter_filename_extensions -> the default list is probably OK

pass_filename_extensions -> totally empty, not even any whitespace

collapse_alternatives -> probably Yes. If you make this No, for a
multipart/alternative message with both text/plain and text/html
alternatives, you will wind up with a message with both the original
text/plain part and a second text/plain part containing Mailman's
conversion of the text/html part.

convert_html_to_plaintext -> Yes

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct  7 04:29:16 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2014 19:29:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Shellshock status
In-Reply-To: <ab88717ea6b548cd34ab1be517f9f5c9@openmailbox.org>
References: <ab88717ea6b548cd34ab1be517f9f5c9@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <54334FFC.7080405@msapiro.net>

On 10/06/2014 08:24 AM, argybard at openmailbox.org wrote:
> 
> Has there been an official word as to whether Mailman has been affected
> by the recent bash bugs, aka shellshock
> 
> Mailman is listed here https://github.com/mubix/shellshocker-pocs and I
> wonder what developers think?


Mailman's CGIs (Mailman 2.1.x at least) do not invoke bash or any shell.
The CGI wrappers use the C execve function to call python directly to
run python scripts.

The Web UI in Mailman 3 is totally different and uses Django.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From wetz.peter at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 09:58:23 2014
From: wetz.peter at gmail.com (Peter Wetz)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 09:58:23 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML content from GMX gets scrubbed in archive
In-Reply-To: <54334C97.3080504@msapiro.net>
References: <CAGmyAkAqZ7-_czSq50Nz2Kn90REnbnEkFDwXeUUJf2DbUrevGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54315ADD.7010700@msapiro.net>
 <CAGmyAkBavhiZ8_FvW_AxC_Kpz5ZxZ17AUAxvYUWB1ufiOJYCqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54334C97.3080504@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAGmyAkDY=iGWPPBVxZnGabeCX8Duq5QG2fK+z6Ow9wJTcb_N2A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for your help. I remember reading about this configuration somewhere
else on this list already and I already tried it to no avail.

of course, i tried it again now, and still, it doesn't work...

this is a screenshot of the configuration, as recommended by you:
http://i.imgur.com/76egNgW.png
for "collapse_alternatives" i tried both, yes and no.
i have some other mime types in "pass_mime_types", however, i think they
should do no harm?
the "pass_filename_extensions" and "filter_mime_types" are definitely
empty. i selected the text-boxes did a "mark all" and "delete" just to be
100% sure.

this is how it looks like in the archive. it is empty:
http://i.imgur.com/1uIJo89.png

this is the message header source of the mail as received by list
subscribers: http://pastebin.com/fM0rREKd
it only contains the footer.

i don't know what's my issue here, since I exactly followed your proposed
steps. i'd be glad if you could help.

do you think there could be some inconsistency between the actual
config-files and what is showin in the text boxes? for instance, it could
be the case that the parameters "pass_filename_extensions" and
"filter_mime_types" are not empty in the config files themselves? since i
dont have direct access to these files, i'd need to contact the admin. but
i am not sure, if that's even a possibility.

best,
Peter

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 4:14 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 10/06/2014 04:20 AM, Peter Wetz wrote:
> >     So the answer to your simple question is simply "you can't".
> >
> >
> > maybe my use of "how can html-mails be properly displayed" was
> > misleading. i dont want any html formatting to be preserved. i simply
> > want an html mail be converted to plain text and then get shown in the
> > archive without any scrubbed attachments. is that possible?
> >
> > i think that my problem is more specific: when i write an HTML mail from
> > gmail to my list, it gets archived properly, i.e., i can see the html as
> > plain text. all is fine. however, when I sent an html mail via the web
> > interface of the popular freemail gmx, the message's html get scrubbed
> > as an attachment and nothing is schon besides the scrubbed attachment.
> >
> > why is it working with html mails from gmail and why isn't it working
> > with html mails from gmx?
>
>
> Last question first. The mail from gmail is multipart/alternative with
> text/plain and text/html alternative parts. The archiver still scrubs
> the text/html part and replaces it with a link, but there is also the
> text/plain part which is archived inline.
>
> The mail from gmx is html only, so there is no text/plain part to
> archive inline.
>
> You can accomplish what you want in the archives using Mailman's content
> filtering, but this will also affect posts delivered to the list
> members. If that is acceptable, you want the following in the lists
> Content filtering settings.
>
> filter_content = Yes
>
> filter_mime_types -> totally empty, not even any whitespace
>
> pass_mime_types -> at least the following 3 lines, maybe more if you
> want to allow other attachment types.
>
> multipart
> text/plain
> text/html
>
> filter_filename_extensions -> the default list is probably OK
>
> pass_filename_extensions -> totally empty, not even any whitespace
>
> collapse_alternatives -> probably Yes. If you make this No, for a
> multipart/alternative message with both text/plain and text/html
> alternatives, you will wind up with a message with both the original
> text/plain part and a second text/plain part containing Mailman's
> conversion of the text/html part.
>
> convert_html_to_plaintext -> Yes
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From wetz.peter at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 15:02:41 2014
From: wetz.peter at gmail.com (Peter Wetz)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 15:02:41 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML content from GMX gets scrubbed in archive
In-Reply-To: <54334C97.3080504@msapiro.net>
References: <CAGmyAkAqZ7-_czSq50Nz2Kn90REnbnEkFDwXeUUJf2DbUrevGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54315ADD.7010700@msapiro.net>
 <CAGmyAkBavhiZ8_FvW_AxC_Kpz5ZxZ17AUAxvYUWB1ufiOJYCqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54334C97.3080504@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAGmyAkBfHF9fkAPHH0OWi2ijmHVSJ4tB9Kx1Jho_FABAD_4-zw@mail.gmail.com>

UPDATE: lynx was missing on the machine mailman was running on. since i
don't have root access (or at least i could not find out on my own, if lynx
is running), it was quite hard for me to figure that one out. just after i
read that some others on this list had problems with "blank messages in the
archive after conversion of html to plain-text mails", i think this was
something worth to investigate.

so now that lynx is installed and running, the html-to-plain-text
conversion works.

one final question: since this requires content filtering to be turned on,
i basically have to whitelist all mime-types i want to let through. is that
right?

best,
Peter

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 4:14 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 10/06/2014 04:20 AM, Peter Wetz wrote:
> >     So the answer to your simple question is simply "you can't".
> >
> >
> > maybe my use of "how can html-mails be properly displayed" was
> > misleading. i dont want any html formatting to be preserved. i simply
> > want an html mail be converted to plain text and then get shown in the
> > archive without any scrubbed attachments. is that possible?
> >
> > i think that my problem is more specific: when i write an HTML mail from
> > gmail to my list, it gets archived properly, i.e., i can see the html as
> > plain text. all is fine. however, when I sent an html mail via the web
> > interface of the popular freemail gmx, the message's html get scrubbed
> > as an attachment and nothing is schon besides the scrubbed attachment.
> >
> > why is it working with html mails from gmail and why isn't it working
> > with html mails from gmx?
>
>
> Last question first. The mail from gmail is multipart/alternative with
> text/plain and text/html alternative parts. The archiver still scrubs
> the text/html part and replaces it with a link, but there is also the
> text/plain part which is archived inline.
>
> The mail from gmx is html only, so there is no text/plain part to
> archive inline.
>
> You can accomplish what you want in the archives using Mailman's content
> filtering, but this will also affect posts delivered to the list
> members. If that is acceptable, you want the following in the lists
> Content filtering settings.
>
> filter_content = Yes
>
> filter_mime_types -> totally empty, not even any whitespace
>
> pass_mime_types -> at least the following 3 lines, maybe more if you
> want to allow other attachment types.
>
> multipart
> text/plain
> text/html
>
> filter_filename_extensions -> the default list is probably OK
>
> pass_filename_extensions -> totally empty, not even any whitespace
>
> collapse_alternatives -> probably Yes. If you make this No, for a
> multipart/alternative message with both text/plain and text/html
> alternatives, you will wind up with a message with both the original
> text/plain part and a second text/plain part containing Mailman's
> conversion of the text/html part.
>
> convert_html_to_plaintext -> Yes
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct  7 17:53:53 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2014 08:53:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML content from GMX gets scrubbed in archive
In-Reply-To: <CAGmyAkBfHF9fkAPHH0OWi2ijmHVSJ4tB9Kx1Jho_FABAD_4-zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGmyAkAqZ7-_czSq50Nz2Kn90REnbnEkFDwXeUUJf2DbUrevGw@mail.gmail.com>	<54315ADD.7010700@msapiro.net>	<CAGmyAkBavhiZ8_FvW_AxC_Kpz5ZxZ17AUAxvYUWB1ufiOJYCqA@mail.gmail.com>	<54334C97.3080504@msapiro.net>
 <CAGmyAkBfHF9fkAPHH0OWi2ijmHVSJ4tB9Kx1Jho_FABAD_4-zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54340C91.9090408@msapiro.net>

On 10/07/2014 06:02 AM, Peter Wetz wrote:
> UPDATE: lynx was missing on the machine mailman was running on. since i
> don't have root access (or at least i could not find out on my own, if
> lynx is running), it was quite hard for me to figure that one out. just
> after i read that some others on this list had problems with "blank
> messages in the archive after conversion of html to plain-text mails", i
> think this was something worth to investigate.


If you have access to Mailman's logs, you would see errors about this in
Mailman's 'error' log.


> so now that lynx is installed and running, the html-to-plain-text
> conversion works.


Good.

N.B. I use elinks by setting

HTML_TO_PLAIN_TEXT_COMMAND = '/usr/bin/elinks -dump %(filename)s'

in mm_cfg.py. I like the plain text conversion a bit better.


> one final question: since this requires content filtering to be turned
> on, i basically have to whitelist all mime-types i want to let through.
> is that right?


It depends what you want to do. If you want to pass everything and just
do the html to plaintext conversion, you can set all 4 of
filter_mime_types, pass_mime_types, filter_filename_extensions and
pass_filename_extensions empty. Then nothing will be removed based on
MIME type or filename extension.

Otherwise, you can either blacklist or whitelist using filter_mime_types
or pass_mime_types respectively. The filters are applied in the
following order.

If filter_mime_types is non-empty, any part with MIME type in
filter_mime_types is removed. Then, if pass_mime_types is non-empty, any
part with MIME type NOT in pass_mime_types is removed. Then the
filename_extensions tests are applied in the same order to parts that
have an associated filename.

Note also that entries in *_mime_types can be either 'maintype' or
'maintype/subtype' (as in e.g., 'image' or 'image/jpeg'). If it is just
'maintype' it will match all parts with that maintype regardless of subtype.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From barry at list.org  Wed Oct  8 17:40:16 2014
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 11:40:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changes coming to the GNU Mailman wiki
Message-ID: <20141008114016.7f09dd4a@anarchist.wooz.org>

Hi folks.

I'm happy to announce some changes to the GNU Mailman infrastructure that has
been a long time coming.  For many years, our wiki hosted at wiki.list.org has
been running on a donated instance of Atlassian Confluence.  We are extremely
grateful to both Atlassian and the hosting provider Contegix for their support
over the years.

However, Confluence is not free software and because Mailman is a GNU project,
it is incumbent on the project to utilize free software throughout our
infrastructure.  Thus I am here to announce the imminent switch of our wiki to
a new Moin server.

Huge, huge thanks go to Paul Boddie for the incredible amount of work he's put
into the conversion process.  Paul has been able to import most if not all of
the content, along with most of the account names, into the new wiki.  Because
of the difference in organizing principles between Confluence and Moin, some
post conversion gardening will be needed, and eventually we'd like to improve
the style, but the conversion has really been done masterfully.

Of course, passwords have not been imported into the new wiki, so if you were
an approved author of the old wiki, you'll need to do a password reset to gain
control of your new wiki account.  However, the group permissions have been
imported, so if you were able to edit the old wiki, you should be able to edit
the new wiki.  As always, contact mailman-cabal at python.org if you need
assistance.

We're doing the last few fiddly bits of the conversion, so you may see some
down time while things fall into place.  We still need to set up the SSL
certificates and twiddle the DNS, so please be aware of this.  I'll make
another announcement when everything should be settled.

In the meantime, I've disabled write permissions to the Confluence wiki.

Huge thanks also go out to the Python Software Foundation and the PSF
infrastructure team for donating the resources that the new wiki is running
on.  Thanks too to the other Mailpersons who have helped review the moin
conversion process.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Oct  9 08:12:47 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2014 15:12:47 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] Changes coming to the GNU
	Mailman wiki
In-Reply-To: <20141008114016.7f09dd4a@anarchist.wooz.org>
References: <20141008114016.7f09dd4a@anarchist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <87y4sppy8w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > Thus I am here to announce the imminent switch of our wiki to a new
 > Moin server.

Hurray!

 > Huge, huge thanks go to Paul Boddie for the incredible amount of
 > work he's put into the conversion process.

Yes indeed!  It's been a huge project, taking what, about a year and a
half (IIRC it was discussed at PyCon Sprints in 2013)!

Thanks again Paul!

Steve


From srinivasrao.balla at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 10 10:44:31 2014
From: srinivasrao.balla at yahoo.com (Srinivas Rao Balla)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 08:44:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail issue to moderator
Message-ID: <787712187.57869.1412930671230.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10984.mail.sg3.yahoo.com>

Hi all,
our production mailman suddenly stopped sending mail to moderator for required list approvals and? subscription approvals.
Ex: when someone scribe to mailing list we have configured to receive the mail to "moderator/administrator" for approval 
but in our case administrator/moderator not getting mails on their mail box. each time we need to logon to list and see for the pending approval or subscriptions? which is not practical.
We are sing "postfix." as mail agent for mailman. Below are the error messages.
/var/log/mailman/smtp-failures

Oct 10 00:45:54 2014 (8899) All recipients refused: {'it-hyd-owner at intra.domain.com': (550, '5.7.1 Unable to relay')}, msgid: <mailman.0.1412927143.9231.it-hyd at intra.domain.com>
Oct 10 00:45:54 2014 (8899) delivery to it-hyd-owner at intra.domain.com failed with code 550: 5.7.1 Unable to relay
Oct 10 00:46:57 2014 (8899) All recipients refused: {'it-hyd-owner at intra.domain.com': (550, '5.7.1 Unable to relay')}, msgid: <mailman.11.1412927205.8897.it-hyd at intra.domain.com>
Oct 10 00:46:57 2014 (8899) delivery to it-hyd-owner at intra.domain.com failed with code 550: 5.7.1 Unable to relay

/var/log/maillo
Oct 10 00:33:39 intra postfix/local[8975]: 8E8FBCE1AE: to=<it-hyd at intra.siliconimage.com>, relay=local, delay=0.2, delays=0.03/0.01/0/0.17, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post it-hyd)
Oct 10 00:46:45 intra postfix/local[9216]: C81EFC6A8D: to=<it-hyd at intra.siliconimage.com>, relay=local, delay=0.19, delays=0.02/0/0/0.18, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post it-hyd)


Please help me to to resolve this issue.
Thanks,Bsrao

From s_doane at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 10 16:25:09 2014
From: s_doane at yahoo.com (Shannon Doane)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 14:25:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Email formatting
Message-ID: <1248865327.161334.1412951109396.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10727.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


I've noticed that when I send an email through the mailing list that a lot of formatting is stripped away. Particularly bothersome is lost line or paragraph breaks. As an example, in an original email there may be a space between paragraphs, but when the email gets delivered through mailman those line breaks may be removed and there is no space between paragraphs at all. Even worse line/paragraph breaks may be removed altogether and everything runs on a continuous line with only word wrap occurring.?
Any thoughts on why this happens??

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 10 17:06:18 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 08:06:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Email formatting
In-Reply-To: <1248865327.161334.1412951109396.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10727.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1248865327.161334.1412951109396.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10727.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5437F5EA.5000304@msapiro.net>

On 10/10/2014 07:25 AM, Shannon Doane wrote:
> 
> I've noticed that when I send an email through the mailing list that a lot of formatting is stripped away. Particularly bothersome is lost line or paragraph breaks. As an example, in an original email there may be a space between paragraphs, but when the email gets delivered through mailman those line breaks may be removed and there is no space between paragraphs at all. Even worse line/paragraph breaks may be removed altogether and everything runs on a continuous line with only word wrap occurring. 
> Any thoughts on why this happens? 


There are two things involved here: Mailman's content filtering and your
mail client.

In the case of your post to the mailman-users list to which I'm
replying, you will note that your original was just two lines, but my
reply is better formatted.

When you send a message, you compose it in Yahoo's "rich text" editor.
When you send it, Yahoo sends it as a multipart/alternative message with
text/plain and text/html alternative parts. The text/html part is HTML
which renders (at least approximately depending on the recipient's mail
client) like what you composed with all the formatting, fonts, etc
intact. The text/plain part is Yahoo's translation of what you composed
into plain text. Yahoo's web mail is particularly bad at this.

Then, this list is configured to not send out HTML, so it selects the
text/plain alternative to send to the members, and the result is Yahoo's
bad plain text rendering of your composition.

The answer is to compose your mail in plain text rather than rich text
to begin with when posting to lists. Then you control what the plain
text looks like. To do this, click the '<<' icon at the bottom rigjht of
the composition window to 'Switch to Plain Text'. Then, you can type
what you want to see; it will be sent as plain text, and Mailman will
send it as received.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 10 17:46:40 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 08:46:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail issue to moderator
In-Reply-To: <787712187.57869.1412930671230.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10984.mail.sg3.yahoo.com>
References: <787712187.57869.1412930671230.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10984.mail.sg3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5437FF60.1030406@msapiro.net>

On 10/10/2014 01:44 AM, Srinivas Rao Balla wrote:
>
> our production mailman suddenly stopped sending mail to moderator for required list approvals and  subscription approvals.
> Ex: when someone scribe to mailing list we have configured to receive the mail to "moderator/administrator" for approval 
> but in our case administrator/moderator not getting mails on their mail box. each time we need to logon to list and see for the pending approval or subscriptions  which is not practical.
> We are sing "postfix." as mail agent for mailman. Below are the error messages.
> /var/log/mailman/smtp-failures
> 
> Oct 10 00:45:54 2014 (8899) All recipients refused: {'it-hyd-owner at intra.domain.com': (550, '5.7.1 Unable to relay')}, msgid: <mailman.0.1412927143.9231.it-hyd at intra.domain.com>
> Oct 10 00:45:54 2014 (8899) delivery to it-hyd-owner at intra.domain.com failed with code 550: 5.7.1 Unable to relay
> Oct 10 00:46:57 2014 (8899) All recipients refused: {'it-hyd-owner at intra.domain.com': (550, '5.7.1 Unable to relay')}, msgid: <mailman.11.1412927205.8897.it-hyd at intra.domain.com>
> Oct 10 00:46:57 2014 (8899) delivery to it-hyd-owner at intra.domain.com failed with code 550: 5.7.1 Unable to relay
> 
> /var/log/maillo
> Oct 10 00:33:39 intra postfix/local[8975]: 8E8FBCE1AE: to=<it-hyd at intra.siliconimage.com>, relay=local, delay=0.2, delays=0.03/0.01/0/0.17, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post it-hyd)
> Oct 10 00:46:45 intra postfix/local[9216]: C81EFC6A8D: to=<it-hyd at intra.siliconimage.com>, relay=local, delay=0.19, delays=0.02/0/0/0.18, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post it-hyd)


The above sets of log messages do not relate to the same email messages.
The messages from /var/log/maillo(g) are posts being delivered
(successfully) to the it-hyd at intra.siliconimage.com list. The messages
from /var/log/mailman/smtp-failure(s) relate to the failure of the
subsequent delivery of the owner notice to it-hyd-owner at intra.domain.com.

Have you munged the domain in the smtp-failure messages. These domains
are normally the same. Do you have aliases in postfix for the
it-hyd-owner address as well as the it-hyd address? A full set of
aliases for this list is

it-hyd:             "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post it-hyd"
it-hyd-admin:       "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin it-hyd"
it-hyd-bounces:     "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces it-hyd"
it-hyd-confirm:     "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm it-hyd"
it-hyd-join:        "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join it-hyd"
it-hyd-leave:       "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave it-hyd"
it-hyd-owner:       "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner it-hyd"
it-hyd-request:     "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request it-hyd"
it-hyd-subscribe:   "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe it-hyd"
it-hyd-unsubscribe: "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe it-hyd"

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Oct 10 17:48:30 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 00:48:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  mail issue to moderator
In-Reply-To: <787712187.57869.1412930671230.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10984.mail.sg3.yahoo.com>
References: <787712187.57869.1412930671230.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10984.mail.sg3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <87fveworht.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Srinivas Rao Balla writes:

 > Oct 10 00:45:54 2014 (8899) All recipients refused:
 > {'it-hyd-owner at intra.domain.com': (550, '5.7.1 Unable to relay')},
 > msgid: <mailman.0.1412927143.9231.it-hyd at intra.domain.com>

It looks to me like you have an *internal* network configuration
issue, such that "intra.domain.com" doesn't recognize the postfix host
(also "intra"??) as an authorized local mail originating host.  So the
message is treated as an unauthorized outsde-to-outside relay and
refused.

It appears that you have redacted your host names, so it's hard to
make further guesses about what the actual problem is.  But it's not
Mailman, I think.  It's your MTAs or DNS.


From heller at deepsoft.com  Fri Oct 10 18:11:30 2014
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 12:11:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Email formatting
In-Reply-To: <1248865327.161334.1412951109396.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10727.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1248865327.161334.1412951109396.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10727.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201410101611.s9AGBUSm005049@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

At Fri, 10 Oct 2014 14:25:09 +0000 (UTC) Shannon Doane <s_doane at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 

> I've noticed that when I send an email through the mailing list that a lot
> of formatting is stripped away. Particularly bothersome is lost line or
> paragraph breaks. As an example, in an original email there may be a space
> between paragraphs, but when the email gets delivered through mailman those
> line breaks may be removed and there is no space between paragraphs at all.
> Even worse line/paragraph breaks may be removed altogether and everything
> runs on a continuous line with only word wrap occurring.??
> Any thoughts on why this happens???

Almost all E-Mail list servers strip off HTML ('Rich Text' or 'Formatted')
mail, since most are using Mailman or some variation of Mailman. Most E-Mail
clients send a multipart-alternitive type message, with a text/plain and a
text/html version of the E-Mail. It is generally possible to set this to
'text/plain' only. And when you compose a text/plain you can put in
'formatting' using typewriter type formatting.

IMHO, HTML E-Mail is evil and seriously bad news. It is a secutity risk,
amongst other evils. *I* use an E-Mail client that neither creates nor handles
HTML E-Mail.

> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>                                                   

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                 

From s_doane at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 10 18:39:33 2014
From: s_doane at yahoo.com (Shannon Doane)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 16:39:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Email formatting
In-Reply-To: <5437F5EA.5000304@msapiro.net>
References: <5437F5EA.5000304@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1145506822.169876.1412959173176.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10787.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>




That makes a lot of sense. I'll create the email in plain text and send it through to the email list that way and see how things go. 

I wouldn't have thought simple line breaks would have been that difficult to translate from html to plain text.


________________________________
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
To: mailman-users at python.org 
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2014 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Email formatting


On 10/10/2014 07:25 AM, Shannon Doane wrote:
> 
> I've noticed that when I send an email through the mailing list that a lot of formatting is stripped away. Particularly bothersome is lost line or paragraph breaks. As an example, in an original email there may be a space between paragraphs, but when the email gets delivered through mailman those line breaks may be removed and there is no space between paragraphs at all. Even worse line/paragraph breaks may be removed altogether and everything runs on a continuous line with only word wrap occurring. 
> Any thoughts on why this happens? 


There are two things involved here: Mailman's content filtering and your
mail client.

In the case of your post to the mailman-users list to which I'm
replying, you will note that your original was just two lines, but my
reply is better formatted.

When you send a message, you compose it in Yahoo's "rich text" editor.
When you send it, Yahoo sends it as a multipart/alternative message with
text/plain and text/html alternative parts. The text/html part is HTML
which renders (at least approximately depending on the recipient's mail
client) like what you composed with all the formatting, fonts, etc
intact. The text/plain part is Yahoo's translation of what you composed
into plain text. Yahoo's web mail is particularly bad at this.

Then, this list is configured to not send out HTML, so it selects the
text/plain alternative to send to the members, and the result is Yahoo's
bad plain text rendering of your composition.

The answer is to compose your mail in plain text rather than rich text
to begin with when posting to lists. Then you control what the plain
text looks like. To do this, click the '<<' icon at the bottom rigjht of
the composition window to 'Switch to Plain Text'. Then, you can type
what you want to see; it will be sent as plain text, and Mailman will
send it as received.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/s_doane%40yahoo.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 10 18:48:19 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 09:48:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Email formatting
In-Reply-To: <1145506822.169876.1412959173176.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10787.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <5437F5EA.5000304@msapiro.net>
 <1145506822.169876.1412959173176.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10787.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <54380DD3.6030802@msapiro.net>

On 10/10/2014 09:39 AM, Shannon Doane wrote:
> 
> I wouldn't have thought simple line breaks would have been that difficult to translate from html to plain text.


Nor would I, but Yahoo can't seem to get it right. Only one of the
reasons why I don't recommend Yahoo mail. In the freemail world, Gmail
seems to do a much better job.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Oct 10 19:30:43 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 02:30:43 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Email formatting
In-Reply-To: <1145506822.169876.1412959173176.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10787.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <5437F5EA.5000304@msapiro.net>
 <1145506822.169876.1412959173176.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10787.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <87bnpjq1bw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Shannon Doane writes:

 > I wouldn't have thought simple line breaks would have been that
 > difficult to translate from html to plain text.

It isn't, and in cases where the list supports it and *only* the
text/html part is present (ie, no text/plain alternative part),
Mailman delegates to an external program (usually Lynx) which does a
good job.

I don't know why Yahoo! does it so poorly.  Normally it makes sense to
use the originating MUA's text/plain version if available (faster and
more likely to reflect the author's preference for HTML constructs
that can't be represented in plain text easily).

Friends-don't-let-friends-use-Yahoo!-mail-ly y'rs,


From heller at deepsoft.com  Fri Oct 10 20:00:15 2014
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 14:00:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Email formatting
In-Reply-To: <1145506822.169876.1412959173176.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10787.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <5437F5EA.5000304@msapiro.net> 
 <1145506822.169876.1412959173176.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10787.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201410101800.s9AI0Fn3010939@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

At Fri, 10 Oct 2014 16:39:33 +0000 (UTC) Shannon Doane <s_doane at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> That makes a lot of sense. I'll create the email in plain text and send it
> through to the email list that way and see how things go. 
> 
> I wouldn't have thought simple line breaks would have been that difficult to
> translate from html to plain text.

It depends alot on how the composer and the html generator work -- whether the
composer actually carries over line breaks litterally or if it 'reflows' the
text (eg creates a single 'physical' line inside a <p>...</p> tag). And how
much the generated html depends on style attributes. When converting from html
to plain text, things like style attributes can simply be dropped, etc. Also
the original line breaks might be already gone. I guess this is part of what
defines a "particularly bad" HTML => plain text translator... :-) Ultimately,
it is all the 'victim' of a bad WYSIWYG editor, in that what you see is not
really what you get, but some kind of approximation that is implemented in a
'lossey' way (some of the original information is lost).

If you set the composer to compose plain text, many of the issues of the bad 
WYSIWYG editor are avoided.

> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> To: mailman-users at python.org 
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2014 12:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Email formatting
> 
> 
> On 10/10/2014 07:25 AM, Shannon Doane wrote:
> > 
> > I've noticed that when I send an email through the mailing list that a lot of formatting is stripped away. Particularly bothersome is lost line or paragraph breaks. As an example, in an original email there may be a space between paragraphs, but when the email gets delivered through mailman those line breaks may be removed and there is no space between paragraphs at all. Even worse line/paragraph breaks may be removed altogether and everything runs on a continuous line with only word wrap occurring. 
> > Any thoughts on why this happens? 
> 
> 
> There are two things involved here: Mailman's content filtering and your
> mail client.
> 
> In the case of your post to the mailman-users list to which I'm
> replying, you will note that your original was just two lines, but my
> reply is better formatted.
> 
> When you send a message, you compose it in Yahoo's "rich text" editor.
> When you send it, Yahoo sends it as a multipart/alternative message with
> text/plain and text/html alternative parts. The text/html part is HTML
> which renders (at least approximately depending on the recipient's mail
> client) like what you composed with all the formatting, fonts, etc
> intact. The text/plain part is Yahoo's translation of what you composed
> into plain text. Yahoo's web mail is particularly bad at this.
> 
> Then, this list is configured to not send out HTML, so it selects the
> text/plain alternative to send to the members, and the result is Yahoo's
> bad plain text rendering of your composition.
> 
> The answer is to compose your mail in plain text rather than rich text
> to begin with when posting to lists. Then you control what the plain
> text looks like. To do this, click the '<<' icon at the bottom rigjht of
> the composition window to 'Switch to Plain Text'. Then, you can type
> what you want to see; it will be sent as plain text, and Mailman will
> send it as received.
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                     

From tracey at fairhousing.com  Sun Oct 12 01:07:40 2014
From: tracey at fairhousing.com (Tracey McCartney)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:07:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server config problems
Message-ID: <5439B83C.60904@fairhousing.com>

Hello:

I am a longtime Mailman list owner/moderator, and I just moved all my 
web sites and accompanying lists to InMotion, which makes Mailman 
available via cPanel on VPS and dedicated accounts.  InMotion supports 
Mailman pretty poorly, a fact I had forgotten, having left them back in 
2006.

Because of what I figure is a server misconfiguration or a cron problem, 
I don't receive moderator notifications from any of my lists.  I do not 
have the time or ability to track down the problem myself, and 
InMotion's people have no experience or training with Mailman.  (In 
fact, I remembered InMotion's poor Mailman support while searching the 
archives of this very list and running across a post I made in 2006 
about this very same problem.)

Is there anyone on this list who has the expertise and willingness to 
work with InMotion to troubleshoot and fix this problem for a reasonable 
fee to be negotiated?  It may even be fixable using the SSH access on my 
account.

Profuse apologies if this is an inappropriate post.  I have also checked 
the consultants page on the Mailman web site and contacted one of those 
companies, but I don't know whether they mostly do hosting.  I really 
don't want to move my sites and lists again, having just gotten 
everything in one place.

Thanks,

Tracey

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 13 02:19:56 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 17:19:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server config problems
In-Reply-To: <5439B83C.60904@fairhousing.com>
References: <5439B83C.60904@fairhousing.com>
Message-ID: <543B1AAC.5020503@msapiro.net>

On 10/11/2014 04:07 PM, Tracey McCartney wrote:
> 
> Because of what I figure is a server misconfiguration or a cron problem,
> I don't receive moderator notifications from any of my lists.


The daily summary of moderator requests is sent by a cron, but if a
list's admin_immed_notify is Yes, those notices are sent without help
from cron.

cPanel lists generally use Exim as the MTA and if any delivery tp
Mailman works at all, delivery to LISTNAME-owner generally works, so,
assuming it's not cron, try mailing LISTNAME-owner and see if that gets
delivered to the list's owner and moderator addresses.


> Is there anyone on this list who has the expertise and willingness to
> work with InMotion to troubleshoot and fix this problem for a reasonable
> fee to be negotiated?  It may even be fixable using the SSH access on my
> account.


If this is a VPS and you have root access to it, you probably have the
access needed to fix it.

My own sanity preserving rules are "I don't work for money" and "I don't
touch your server", at least not in ways that are not available to the
world.

However, I'm more than happy to work with you or InMotion through this
list, but not as a paid consultant. I can't speak for anyone else here.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tracey at fairhousing.com  Mon Oct 13 02:31:52 2014
From: tracey at fairhousing.com (Tracey McCartney)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:31:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server config problems
In-Reply-To: <543B1AAC.5020503@msapiro.net>
References: <5439B83C.60904@fairhousing.com> <543B1AAC.5020503@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <002e01cfe67d$166d3530$43479f90$@fairhousing.com>

Hey, Mark, thanks for the response.  Here is what I pulled together after my
first post:

admin_immed_notify is Yes, so probably no cron problem, as you said.

Delivery to LISTNAME-owner does NOT appear to work.

Notifications that go to the admin, such as subscribes and unsubscribes,
work fine.
Notifications that go to users, such as notifications that their message is
held up in moderation, work fine.
General traffic works fine.

Notifications to the moderator that someone has asked to subscribe (our
lists are set up for approval only) do not work.
Notifications to the moderator that something is held up in moderation do
not work.

In most cases, the moderator and admin have had the same e-mail address, but
I have tried with two different ones, with the same results.  I have checked
spam boxes and have not found anything.

And yes,  I have since figured out how to use SSH on my server but don't
really know what to look for.  It seems odd that admin notifications would
work fine but not moderator ones.

The question for me always seems to boil down to whether my own sanity is
best preserved trying to fix this where it is or to do yet another host
move. :/  I don't know why this host won't get its #$^& together re.
Mailman.

Thanks,

Tracey

-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+tracey=fairhousing.com at python.org] On Behalf
Of Mark Sapiro
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2014 7:20 PM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Server config problems

On 10/11/2014 04:07 PM, Tracey McCartney wrote:
> 
> Because of what I figure is a server misconfiguration or a cron 
> problem, I don't receive moderator notifications from any of my lists.


The daily summary of moderator requests is sent by a cron, but if a list's
admin_immed_notify is Yes, those notices are sent without help from cron.

cPanel lists generally use Exim as the MTA and if any delivery tp Mailman
works at all, delivery to LISTNAME-owner generally works, so, assuming it's
not cron, try mailing LISTNAME-owner and see if that gets delivered to the
list's owner and moderator addresses.


> Is there anyone on this list who has the expertise and willingness to 
> work with InMotion to troubleshoot and fix this problem for a 
> reasonable fee to be negotiated?  It may even be fixable using the SSH 
> access on my account.


If this is a VPS and you have root access to it, you probably have the
access needed to fix it.

My own sanity preserving rules are "I don't work for money" and "I don't
touch your server", at least not in ways that are not available to the
world.

However, I'm more than happy to work with you or InMotion through this list,
but not as a paid consultant. I can't speak for anyone else here.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy:
http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/tracey%40fairhousing.c
om


From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Oct 13 03:23:37 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 10:23:37 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server config problems
In-Reply-To: <002e01cfe67d$166d3530$43479f90$@fairhousing.com>
References: <5439B83C.60904@fairhousing.com> <543B1AAC.5020503@msapiro.net>
 <002e01cfe67d$166d3530$43479f90$@fairhousing.com>
Message-ID: <87siisoj8m.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Tracey McCartney writes:

 > The question for me always seems to boil down to whether my own sanity is
 > best preserved trying to fix this where it is or to do yet another host
 > move. :/

If it's *just* Mailman and you have ssh access (and permission to
change the configuration files), we can walk you through it.  Keep
notes, as a poorly done upgrade by the host could cause the issue to
regress.  But if otherwise you're satisfied with the host, well, we'll
always be here -- no need to change.

 > I don't know why this host won't get its #$^& together re. Mailman.

Well, it could be a symptom of inadequate staffing (in some sense, of
course you rarely get more than you pay for).  But I suspect many
hosting services expect that cPanel and Mailman take care of
everything and chalk issue up to user error.  It's a compliment to us,
of sorts. :-)


From wetz.peter at gmail.com  Mon Oct 13 14:03:09 2014
From: wetz.peter at gmail.com (Peter Wetz)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 14:03:09 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML content from GMX gets scrubbed in archive
In-Reply-To: <54340C91.9090408@msapiro.net>
References: <CAGmyAkAqZ7-_czSq50Nz2Kn90REnbnEkFDwXeUUJf2DbUrevGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54315ADD.7010700@msapiro.net>
 <CAGmyAkBavhiZ8_FvW_AxC_Kpz5ZxZ17AUAxvYUWB1ufiOJYCqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54334C97.3080504@msapiro.net>
 <CAGmyAkBfHF9fkAPHH0OWi2ijmHVSJ4tB9Kx1Jho_FABAD_4-zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <54340C91.9090408@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAGmyAkDUVFbHD7uVGa5kJNEg-nU7ufjn7JR28KJsCfMbqi+7fw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 10/07/2014 06:02 AM, Peter Wetz wrote:
> > UPDATE: lynx was missing on the machine mailman was running on. since i
> > don't have root access (or at least i could not find out on my own, if
> > lynx is running), it was quite hard for me to figure that one out. just
> > after i read that some others on this list had problems with "blank
> > messages in the archive after conversion of html to plain-text mails", i
> > think this was something worth to investigate.
>
>
> If you have access to Mailman's logs, you would see errors about this in
> Mailman's 'error' log.
>

that's good to know. however, in my case, this would not have been possible.

> so now that lynx is installed and running, the html-to-plain-text
> > conversion works.
>
> Good.
>
> N.B. I use elinks by setting
>
> HTML_TO_PLAIN_TEXT_COMMAND = '/usr/bin/elinks -dump %(filename)s'
>
> in mm_cfg.py. I like the plain text conversion a bit better.
>
>
> > one final question: since this requires content filtering to be turned
> > on, i basically have to whitelist all mime-types i want to let through.
> > is that right?
>
>
> It depends what you want to do. If you want to pass everything and just
> do the html to plaintext conversion, you can set all 4 of
> filter_mime_types, pass_mime_types, filter_filename_extensions and
> pass_filename_extensions empty. Then nothing will be removed based on
> MIME type or filename extension.
>
> Otherwise, you can either blacklist or whitelist using filter_mime_types
> or pass_mime_types respectively. The filters are applied in the
> following order.
>
> If filter_mime_types is non-empty, any part with MIME type in
> filter_mime_types is removed. Then, if pass_mime_types is non-empty, any
> part with MIME type NOT in pass_mime_types is removed. Then the
> filename_extensions tests are applied in the same order to parts that
> have an associated filename.
>
> Note also that entries in *_mime_types can be either 'maintype' or
> 'maintype/subtype' (as in e.g., 'image' or 'image/jpeg'). If it is just
> 'maintype' it will match all parts with that maintype regardless of
> subtype.
>

thanks for detailed explanation. makes perfect sense.

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 13 22:17:39 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 13:17:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server config problems
In-Reply-To: <002e01cfe67d$166d3530$43479f90$@fairhousing.com>
References: <5439B83C.60904@fairhousing.com> <543B1AAC.5020503@msapiro.net>
 <002e01cfe67d$166d3530$43479f90$@fairhousing.com>
Message-ID: <543C3363.8080302@msapiro.net>

On 10/12/2014 05:31 PM, Tracey McCartney wrote:
> 
> Delivery to LISTNAME-owner does NOT appear to work.
> 
> Notifications that go to the admin, such as subscribes and unsubscribes,
> work fine.
> Notifications that go to users, such as notifications that their message is
> held up in moderation, work fine.
> General traffic works fine.
> 
> Notifications to the moderator that someone has asked to subscribe (our
> lists are set up for approval only) do not work.
> Notifications to the moderator that something is held up in moderation do
> not work.


All of the above symptoms are explained by the fact that mail to
LISTNAME-owner doesn't work. For various historical reasons,
notifications of changes in list membership (successful (un)subscribes)
are sent directly to the address(es) in the list's owner and moderator
attributes while notifications of held messages and subscriptions and
daily moderator summaries sent by cron are all sent to the
LISTNAME-owner address and normally received by Mailman and resent to
the owner/moderator address(es).

You (or someone) needs to examine the logs of the MTA (Exim or whatever
it is) to find out what the issue is.

If the MTA is Exim, the command

sudo exim -bt LISTNAME-owner at DOMAIN

will give some relevant information.

Note, if mail to the LISTNAME-owner address doesn't bounce, it is
probably being delivered somewhere, just not to Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fsantiago at garden-life.org  Mon Oct 13 23:08:18 2014
From: fsantiago at garden-life.org (Fabian Santiago)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 17:08:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing mailman list archive into google groups
 for business / google apps
Message-ID: <CAP86iu5o1P_o7_EJKLY78tX927GR9DNDnUFuOm65fcon-Lz8Xw@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone have any idea how to accomplish this?

-- 

- Sincerely,

Fabian S.

From lists at datatravels.com  Mon Oct 13 23:38:31 2014
From: lists at datatravels.com (jason fb)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 17:38:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing mailman list archive into google
	groups for business / google apps
In-Reply-To: <CAP86iu5o1P_o7_EJKLY78tX927GR9DNDnUFuOm65fcon-Lz8Xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP86iu5o1P_o7_EJKLY78tX927GR9DNDnUFuOm65fcon-Lz8Xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65A54062-86D0-43B2-9174-8E668025EF72@datatravels.com>


Seems like that would be a question for Google support ? 


On Oct 13, 2014, at 5:08 PM, Fabian Santiago <fsantiago at garden-life.org> wrote:

> Anyone have any idea how to accomplish this?


From fsantiago at garden-life.org  Mon Oct 13 23:50:23 2014
From: fsantiago at garden-life.org (Fabian Santiago)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 17:50:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing mailman list archive into google
 groups for business / google apps
In-Reply-To: <65A54062-86D0-43B2-9174-8E668025EF72@datatravels.com>
References: <CAP86iu5o1P_o7_EJKLY78tX927GR9DNDnUFuOm65fcon-Lz8Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <65A54062-86D0-43B2-9174-8E668025EF72@datatravels.com>
Message-ID: <1865607258634122175@unknownmsgid>

Yeh it probably is. I was just curious if anyone had any tools they
had used successfully. Ok then.

Sincerely,

Fabian Santiago

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 13, 2014, at 5:38 PM, jason fb <lists at datatravels.com> wrote:
>
>
> Seems like that would be a question for Google support ?
>
>
>> On Oct 13, 2014, at 5:08 PM, Fabian Santiago <fsantiago at garden-life.org> wrote:
>>
>> Anyone have any idea how to accomplish this?
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct 14 01:22:02 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 16:22:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing mailman list archive into google
 groups for business / google apps
In-Reply-To: <1865607258634122175@unknownmsgid>
References: <CAP86iu5o1P_o7_EJKLY78tX927GR9DNDnUFuOm65fcon-Lz8Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <65A54062-86D0-43B2-9174-8E668025EF72@datatravels.com>
 <1865607258634122175@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <543C5E9A.9070505@msapiro.net>

On 10/13/2014 02:50 PM, Fabian Santiago wrote:
> Yeh it probably is. I was just curious if anyone had any tools they
> had used successfully. Ok then.


I don't know if you'll get much help from google. This forum thread
<https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/apps/5LdnN7OwEy8> is
almost 5 years old and has no answer.

The only way I know is somewhat kludgey. You can set up the Google group
and add yourself only as a member and then go through the Mailman
cuumulative archive mbox for the list and remail each message with
envelope from you and envelope to your groups address.

I've not tried this for a whole archive, but it works for a few messages
and should work for more.

The messages get put in the archive with the original From:, Subject:
and Date: headers, but they are all archived as of the current date.

This python script edited as indicated will send the mail.

import mailbox
import smtplib

mb = mailbox.mbox('/path/to/mbox', Create=False)  # put actual mbox path
conn = smtplib.SMTP()
conn.connect(...)  # connect to the server that will send the mail
                   # e.g. conn.connect('example.com', 587)
conn.starttls()    # if required
conn.login(...)    # if required
                   # e.g. conn.login('user at example.com', 'password'
for msg in mb:
    conn.sendmail('you at example.com',             # your actual email
                  'your_group at googlegroups.com', # your group's address
                   msg.as_string())
conn.quit()

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dwatts at dimentech.com  Tue Oct 14 01:30:32 2014
From: dwatts at dimentech.com (Dan Watts)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 19:30:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Any way to add sender email address to subject line
	or body of email?
Message-ID: <543C6098.1080501@dimentech.com>

Due to many sites now blocking emails that do not come from the defined
list of sending hosts, I've changed the lists I manage to replace the
"From:" header with the list address using "anonymous_list". This works
great for delivery but many people don't bother to sign their emails and
we end up not knowing who is posting. It would be great if I could put
the sender email address in the subject line or as a first line in the
body of each posting. Is there a way to do either one of these things?

Dan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct 14 20:42:47 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:42:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Any way to add sender email address to subject
 line or body of email?
In-Reply-To: <543C6098.1080501@dimentech.com>
References: <543C6098.1080501@dimentech.com>
Message-ID: <543D6EA7.7080502@msapiro.net>

On 10/13/2014 04:30 PM, Dan Watts wrote:
> Due to many sites now blocking emails that do not come from the defined
> list of sending hosts, I've changed the lists I manage to replace the
> "From:" header with the list address using "anonymous_list". This works
> great for delivery but many people don't bother to sign their emails and
> we end up not knowing who is posting. It would be great if I could put
> the sender email address in the subject line or as a first line in the
> body of each posting. Is there a way to do either one of these things?


Pre Mailman 2.1.16, there is no way to do this via list configuration.
It can be done with a custom handler (See
<http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9>), but if you have the access required to
install such, you are better off upgrading to Mailman 2.1.18-1 and using
it's dmarc_moderation_action or from_is_list settings to change the
From: header rather than anonymous_list.

These options will preserve the display name in the From: header and
put/add the original From: address in the Reply-To: header.

In Mailman 2.1.16 and 2.1.17, only the from_is_list setting is available
and only if enabled by the site.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tracey at fairhousing.com  Tue Oct 14 22:15:58 2014
From: tracey at fairhousing.com (Tracey McCartney)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 15:15:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server config problems
In-Reply-To: <543C3363.8080302@msapiro.net>
References: <5439B83C.60904@fairhousing.com> <543B1AAC.5020503@msapiro.net>
 <002e01cfe67d$166d3530$43479f90$@fairhousing.com>
 <543C3363.8080302@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <14df01cfe7eb$aaef8b30$00cea190$@fairhousing.com>

To follow up on this problem, I am in the process of leaving InMotion behind
because it appeared that it was going to be difficult to get the root access
I would need to read the logs and diagnose this problem.

I have almost finished moving my sites to EMWD.com, which had hosted my
large-ish listserv before I tried to consolidate everything at InMotion.  So
far so good - my lists are running well, my moderator notification problem
is fixed, and my Drupal sites appear to be running smoothly.  It will be
VERY nice if I have finally found a host where everything will run and I
don't have to split my sites among 2-3 hosts.  And Brian doesn't take 7
hours to respond to a support request. :)

Thanks to Mark and others who were willing to help me debug this thing.  In
the end I decided InMotion doesn't deserve my business if they can't support
a ubiquitous MLM that every decent cPanel host offers by default.


Tracey


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Oct 15 05:13:27 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 12:13:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server config problems
In-Reply-To: <14df01cfe7eb$aaef8b30$00cea190$@fairhousing.com>
References: <5439B83C.60904@fairhousing.com> <543B1AAC.5020503@msapiro.net>
 <002e01cfe67d$166d3530$43479f90$@fairhousing.com>
 <543C3363.8080302@msapiro.net>
 <14df01cfe7eb$aaef8b30$00cea190$@fairhousing.com>
Message-ID: <87lhoim3e0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Tracey McCartney writes:

 > And Brian doesn't take 7 hours to respond to a support request. :)

You meet the nicest people on Mailman Users, don't you? ;-)


From mpascal at gmail.com  Wed Oct 15 21:18:22 2014
From: mpascal at gmail.com (Marino Pascal)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 12:18:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mac, me, icloud. Many domains one user.
Message-ID: <543EC87E.2000104@gmail.com>

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have subscribers who subscribed with user at mac.com and then they try to post from user at me.com or user at icloud.com and their mail bounces off 
course since only subscribers can post.

I know how to add addresses with the "accept_these_nonmembers Option" but I have quite a few .mac users and I'm wondering if there is a way to 
treat
mac.com, me.com & icloud.com as interchangeable.

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2623

Thanks
Marino Pascal

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 16 00:44:55 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:44:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mac, me, icloud. Many domains one user.
In-Reply-To: <543EC87E.2000104@gmail.com>
References: <543EC87E.2000104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <543EF8E7.5000208@msapiro.net>

On 10/15/2014 12:18 PM, Marino Pascal wrote:
> Long time lurker, first time poster.


Welcome.


> I have subscribers who subscribed with user at mac.com and then they try to
> post from user at me.com or user at icloud.com and their mail bounces off
> course since only subscribers can post.
> 
> I know how to add addresses with the "accept_these_nonmembers Option"
> but I have quite a few .mac users and I'm wondering if there is a way to
> treat
> mac.com, me.com & icloud.com as interchangeable.


I have attached the patch I use. It actually supports more than one set
of equivalent domains. The EQ_DOMAINS list is a list of tuples and each
tuple is a set of domains considered equivalent for list membership tests.

In the patch I have included, there are two sets. The ('mac.com',
'me.com', 'icloud.com') domains you're interested in and ('grizz.org',
'grizzlypeakcyclists.org') which are local equivalent domains.

The patched code works for list members, but not for addresses in
*_these_nonmembers even if those addresses come from another list via an
@listname reference.

There can be other issues in that if the poster's address is not the
actual member's address but an equivalent, the member's options like
'ack' and 'not metoo' aren't honored, but moderation is honored if the
actual member is moderated.

I don't think there's a way to do this short of patching the code.

I have considered making this a feature with configurable equivalent
domains in a future release, but I haven't thought it through.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
=== modified file 'Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py'
--- Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py	2014-06-26 21:52:28 +0000
+++ Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py	2014-10-15 22:22:57 +0000
@@ -32,6 +32,20 @@
 from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog
 from Mailman.MailList import MailList
 
+EQ_DOMAINS = [('mac.com', 'me.com', 'icloud.com'),
+              ('grizz.org', 'grizzlypeakcyclists.org'),
+             ]
+
+def check_doms(sender):
+    if sender.find('@') < 0:
+        return []
+    local, domain = sender.split('@')
+    domain = domain.lower()
+    for domains in EQ_DOMAINS:
+        if domain in domains:
+            return [local + '@' + x for x in domains if x != domain]
+    return []
+
 
 

 class ModeratedMemberPost(Hold.ModeratedPost):
@@ -54,6 +68,13 @@
     for sender in msg.get_senders():
         if mlist.isMember(sender):
             break
+        double_break = False
+        for sender in check_doms(sender):
+            if mlist.isMember(sender):
+                double_break = True
+                break
+        if double_break:
+            break
     else:
         sender = None
     if sender:


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Thu Oct 16 04:27:18 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 13:27:18 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mac, me, icloud. Many domains one user.
In-Reply-To: <543EC87E.2000104@gmail.com>
References: <543EC87E.2000104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FFFE3AFE-94CE-49F7-8350-59717716E5C9@nuw.org.au>

We've only got 4 of this type of address out of 1100 subscribers, but I've no idea if other lists would be similar.

Is subscribing them all manually with the other two addresses a practical option? It would get messy if they unsubscribe, but if two were set to nomail it might not be so bad. If you moderate one then you'd have to remember to moderate them all.

Peter Shute

Sent from my iPad

> On 16 Oct 2014, at 9:10 am, "Marino Pascal" <mpascal at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Long time lurker, first time poster.
> 
> I have subscribers who subscribed with user at mac.com and then they try to post from user at me.com or user at icloud.com and their mail bounces off 
> course since only subscribers can post.
> 
> I know how to add addresses with the "accept_these_nonmembers Option" but I have quite a few .mac users and I'm wondering if there is a way to 
> treat
> mac.com, me.com & icloud.com as interchangeable.
> 
> http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2623
> 
> Thanks
> Marino Pascal
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%40nuw.org.au

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Thu Oct 16 13:35:33 2014
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 13:35:33 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mac, me, icloud. Many domains one user.
In-Reply-To: <543EC87E.2000104@gmail.com>
References: <543EC87E.2000104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1410161322470.8119@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

On Wed, 15 Oct 2014, Marino Pascal wrote:

> I know how to add addresses with the "accept_these_nonmembers Option"

That's the way I sort-of-regularly use.

We have mailing lists inside our nationwide organization (inaf.it), where, 
for historical reasons, each of our 22 institutes may have 2-3 different 
subdomains. In general each user chooses freely which subdomain to use.

If this does not match the address one subscribed, the message stops in 
moderation. Usually the first of the co-moderators to "unlock" the message 
inserts the address in "accept_these_nonmembers" (which can be done with 
just a tick), if he remembers to do it.

The other way is to force an user to use the subscribed address only.

In fact what I said above for "accept_these_nonmembers" works for the 
public discussion list. There are other more institutional lists where the 
member list is regenerated automatically weekly from the payrolls (and 
uses an "official" address which the user cannot change). But these are 
one-to-many (or centre-to-periphery) lists, where users very rarely *post* 
to the list.

Some Mail User Agents allow to define a "role" when posting to a specific 
address, so in this case the knowledgeable user may define such a role, 
which uses the official, although not his preferred, address when posting 
to the institutional lists.

However if the patch to deal with multiple domains for one user becomes an 
official feature (perhaps mantained via the web interface), it might be an
interesting feature.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net  Fri Oct 17 02:33:34 2014
From: dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net (Dennis Carr)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 17:33:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest feature for pending moderator requests
Message-ID: <20141016173334.b161bc0678f740ef15af132b@chez-vrolet.net>

I have two lists - ffml and ffml-admins - which I've noticed a slight
behavior difference.  On ffml-admins, I get a message once per day that
tells me that I have n>0 emails pending, and no emails on a per-email
received basis.  With ffml, however, every time a pending message is
held, the moderator team and I get an email for each - and there
hasn't been enough time at this point for the digest message. I just
turned this on, and it's going to get annoying really quick, as these
messages are almost invariably the result of spam*.

Long and short, ranting aside, how do I set up mailman so I don't get
an email for each of the held messages, instead getting that sort of
"digest" message?  I've combed through the web ui, but I can't seem to
find a relevant feature....

-Dennis


* I turned this feature on due to a sharp uptick in spam on this server
- my hope is to basically trap these for reporting to Spamcop, and to
reduce backscatter to nil.  At this point, at the current default
setting, backscatter is getting up to about two dozen per day trying to
get to servers that are refusing connection, and I can only imagine how
many are actually getting through.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Oct 17 03:15:24 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:15:24 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Digest feature for pending moderator requests
In-Reply-To: <20141016173334.b161bc0678f740ef15af132b@chez-vrolet.net>
References: <20141016173334.b161bc0678f740ef15af132b@chez-vrolet.net>
Message-ID: <871tq7lcnn.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Dennis Carr writes:

 > Long and short, ranting aside, how do I set up mailman so I don't get
 > an email for each of the held messages, instead getting that sort of
 > "digest" message?  I've combed through the web ui, but I can't seem to
 > find a relevant feature....

In 2.1.18-1 on the "General Options" page in the "Notifications"
section you can set admin_immed_notify to No.  If your setting is No,
then there's a bug.


From rtapia1 at luc.edu  Thu Oct 16 23:25:53 2014
From: rtapia1 at luc.edu (Tapia, Rene)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 21:25:53 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One List Not Receiving Mail
Message-ID: <6e288c1c76034fa5b59aeeb44402e6cd@mbxls1.adms.luc.edu>

Good Afternoon,

I am new to the Mailman application, but was tasked to migrate the application (data) to a new server. I completed the task and am now running Mailman version 2.14. Everything seems to be working fine, except for one LIST. I thought it was due to the migration, but the user reported that the issue has been ongoing for a few months. Anytime the user sends an email to the list, the email flows correctly all the way to the POSTFIX on the mailman server. From the logs I see that Postfix executes (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mailman listname). That is where any logs for that LIST stops. I check the archives and pending moderator requests, and nothing is in there. Once again, this is just for one list. All the other lists work fine.

I have tried to send myself and have verified the person is set to send mail. Everything dies after that Postfix command. Can someone please help or advise on how to fix/find the issue? Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ren? Tapia

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 17 07:27:33 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 22:27:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One List Not Receiving Mail
In-Reply-To: <6e288c1c76034fa5b59aeeb44402e6cd@mbxls1.adms.luc.edu>
References: <6e288c1c76034fa5b59aeeb44402e6cd@mbxls1.adms.luc.edu>
Message-ID: <5440A8C5.3020001@msapiro.net>

On 10/16/2014 02:25 PM, Tapia, Rene wrote:
> 
> I am new to the Mailman application, but was tasked to migrate the application (data) to a new server. I completed the task and am now running Mailman version 2.14. Everything seems to be working fine, except for one LIST. I thought it was due to the migration, but the user reported that the issue has been ongoing for a few months. Anytime the user sends an email to the list, the email flows correctly all the way to the POSTFIX on the mailman server. From the logs I see that Postfix executes (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mailman listname). That is where any logs for that LIST stops. I check the archives and pending moderator requests, and nothing is in there. Once again, this is just for one list. All the other lists work fine.


Is there anything in Mailman's 'error' log from the time of the
attempted post? Anything in Mailman's 'vette' log?

Is there a stale lock for this list? See <http://wiki.list.org/x/noA9>.

Also see the post at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-September/077853.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rtapia1 at luc.edu  Fri Oct 17 14:00:50 2014
From: rtapia1 at luc.edu (Tapia, Rene)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:00:50 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] One List Not Receiving Mail
In-Reply-To: <5440A8C5.3020001@msapiro.net>
References: <6e288c1c76034fa5b59aeeb44402e6cd@mbxls1.adms.luc.edu>
 <5440A8C5.3020001@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <b1e96d8bd2234262986dfe14ab7e0490@mbxls1.adms.luc.edu>

Mark,

Thanks for the tips! I was able to solve the issue. The issuer had a SPAM filter on that was blocking everything. As soon as I disabled it, email started coming through. Once again thank you!

Regards,
Ren? Tapia

-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+rtapia1=luc.edu at python.org] On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 12:28 AM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] One List Not Receiving Mail

On 10/16/2014 02:25 PM, Tapia, Rene wrote:
> 
> I am new to the Mailman application, but was tasked to migrate the application (data) to a new server. I completed the task and am now running Mailman version 2.14. Everything seems to be working fine, except for one LIST. I thought it was due to the migration, but the user reported that the issue has been ongoing for a few months. Anytime the user sends an email to the list, the email flows correctly all the way to the POSTFIX on the mailman server. From the logs I see that Postfix executes (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mailman listname). That is where any logs for that LIST stops. I check the archives and pending moderator requests, and nothing is in there. Once again, this is just for one list. All the other lists work fine.


Is there anything in Mailman's 'error' log from the time of the attempted post? Anything in Mailman's 'vette' log?

Is there a stale lock for this list? See <http://wiki.list.org/x/noA9>.

Also see the post at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-September/077853.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/rtapia1%40luc.edu

From eravin at panix.com  Sat Oct 18 07:33:59 2014
From: eravin at panix.com (Ed Ravin)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 01:33:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL screening Reply-To header thru DMARC ?
Message-ID: <20141018053359.GB4221@panix.com>

I'm setting up a new Mailman server to replace an elderly MajorDomo
that isn't DMARC-compatible.

I set up the list to use the list's address as the From address and to
put the sender's address in Reply-To:.  I started playing around with a
test list - in no time at all, AOL began bouncing all my mail.

After researching AOL's error messages, it appeared that my server
had been temporarily blacklisted.  That went away but then I noticed
this error:

   Oct 18 01:01:26 vc18 postfix/smtp[25098]: C77D416B4D9: host mailin-01.mx.aol.com[152.163.0.67] said: 421 4.2.1 :  (RLY:SN) http://postmaster.info.aol.com/errors/421rlysn.html (in reply to end of DATA command)

According to that URL on AOL's site, either my From or Reply-To is using an
address in violation of DMARC.  I had already checked the From address so
it was apparent the Reply-To was at fault.  Aalthough the mail was not
being rejected, given AOL's hair-trigger sensors I figured it would be
better to do it their way.   Changing the  Reply-To: to the list's address
got rid of the 421 error.

Has anyone else run into this?  I hate doing this, since now we're going
to see people sending what they think are private messages to the entire
list.

I see from the docs that Mailman can do different behavior on the From:
address depending on whether it is in a DMARC-protected domain - are there
any plans to do the same for the Reply-To?  Looks to me like it will be
necessary given what AOL is doing.

Thanks,

	-- Ed

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 18 20:03:11 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 11:03:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL screening Reply-To header thru DMARC ?
In-Reply-To: <20141018053359.GB4221@panix.com>
References: <20141018053359.GB4221@panix.com>
Message-ID: <5442AB5F.7030707@msapiro.net>

On 10/17/2014 10:33 PM, Ed Ravin wrote:
> 
> I set up the list to use the list's address as the From address and to
> put the sender's address in Reply-To:.  I started playing around with a
> test list - in no time at all, AOL began bouncing all my mail.
> 
> After researching AOL's error messages, it appeared that my server
> had been temporarily blacklisted.  That went away but then I noticed
> this error:
> 
>    Oct 18 01:01:26 vc18 postfix/smtp[25098]: C77D416B4D9: host mailin-01.mx.aol.com[152.163.0.67] said: 421 4.2.1 :  (RLY:SN) http://postmaster.info.aol.com/errors/421rlysn.html (in reply to end of DATA command)


I have a somewhat different issue. I am using dmarc_moderation_action =
Munge From, and when an AOL user posts to the list, the list message
sent back to the user bounces with "521 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept
delivery of this message. (in reply to end of DATA command))". The same
messages sent to other AOL users are accepted by AOL.


> According to that URL on AOL's site, either my From or Reply-To is using an
> address in violation of DMARC.


I just read that link after writing all the rest of this reply (which
now seems moot). It says "421 RLY:SN    This error indicates you are
sending email using a disallowed AOL.COM screenname as your FROM or
REPLY-TO address, or as one of AOL's affiliates from an unauthorized IP
address. Example: Billing at aol.com". It doesn't mention DMARC. It says
the specific address in (in this case) Reply-To: is a disallowed AOL.COM
screenname or affiliate address. Assuming the aol.com address in
question is valid, I don't know why AOL doesn't like it, but AOL isn't
blaming DMARC.

Interesting as there is nothing in the DMARC specification about
Reply-To: headers. DMARC is only about From: header domains aligning
with valid SPF or DKIM signature domains.

If AOL is really checking Reply-To: domains for 'DMARC' compliance, this
is outside the specification, but in my case at least they don't seem to
be because the original message with From: address = the list address
and Reply-To: address = the OP's aol.com address is accepted by AOL when
sent to AOL addresses other than the OP's.

Note also that in my case, I started DKIM signing these outgoing
messages with the domain of the list, so they should pass DMARC as they
are From: the list's domain and have both valid SPF and DKIM sig from
that domain, but the OP's list copy is still rejected by AOL as above.


> I had already checked the From address so
> it was apparent the Reply-To was at fault.  Aalthough the mail was not
> being rejected, given AOL's hair-trigger sensors I figured it would be
> better to do it their way.   Changing the  Reply-To: to the list's address
> got rid of the 421 error.
>
> Has anyone else run into this?  I hate doing this, since now we're going
> to see people sending what they think are private messages to the entire
> list.


And it may solve my issue too, but I'm not going to do it because of the
above and since so far at least it only affects delivery to the poster.
The poster does score bounces, but this can be avoided by setting
non-digest AOL members to not receive their own posts which is
effectively the case anyway.


> I see from the docs that Mailman can do different behavior on the From:
> address depending on whether it is in a DMARC-protected domain - are there
> any plans to do the same for the Reply-To?  Looks to me like it will be
> necessary given what AOL is doing.


If and when there is an accepted standard governing this behavior, I'll
consider it. In the mean time, I'm not interested in accommodating
non-compliant behavior by one rogue ESP.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From johnl at taugh.com  Sat Oct 18 20:26:27 2014
From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine)
Date: 18 Oct 2014 18:26:27 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL screening Reply-To header thru DMARC ?
In-Reply-To: <5442AB5F.7030707@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20141018182627.2924.qmail@ary.lan>

>I have a somewhat different issue. I am using dmarc_moderation_action =
>Munge From, and when an AOL user posts to the list, the list message
>sent back to the user bounces with "521 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept
>delivery of this message. (in reply to end of DATA command))". The same
>messages sent to other AOL users are accepted by AOL.

If you're munging with .INVALID or the like, I have observed that AOL and
some other ISPs now refuse mail if the From: domain doesn't resolve.
I've changed my hack so it now append a suffix that does resolve (I snagged
dmarc.fail) and overimplemented it so the munged addresses actually work.

I would be surprised if AOL were doing DMARC checks on Reply-To, and agree
that it's not a problem worth solving.  But I'll ask around.

R's,
John

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 18 21:13:20 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 12:13:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL screening Reply-To header thru DMARC ?
In-Reply-To: <20141018182627.2924.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20141018182627.2924.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <5442BBD0.7090205@msapiro.net>

On 10/18/2014 11:26 AM, John Levine wrote:
>> I have a somewhat different issue. I am using dmarc_moderation_action =
>> Munge From, and when an AOL user posts to the list, the list message
>> sent back to the user bounces with "521 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept
>> delivery of this message. (in reply to end of DATA command))". The same
>> messages sent to other AOL users are accepted by AOL.
> 
> If you're munging with .INVALID or the like, I have observed that AOL and
> some other ISPs now refuse mail if the From: domain doesn't resolve.
> I've changed my hack so it now append a suffix that does resolve (I snagged
> dmarc.fail) and overimplemented it so the munged addresses actually work.


No, I don't munge with .invalid or the like. In these cases,
dmarc_moderation_action replaces the From: address with the list's
posting address and adds the original From: address to Reply-To: if it
isn't there already.

These messages are then sent individually (VERPed) to the list members
and DKIM signed on the way out by the list's domain. AOL accepts the
message on behalf of every AOL recipient except the original poster. As
far as I can see, the only thing in the message that can tie it to the
original poster are the Reply-To: and Message-ID headers.

One possibility is that AOL is doing what Google does and not accepting
a message which duplicates (by message id) one you sent, but being more
open about it and actually refusing the message rather than acceptiong
and discarding it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Oct 19 01:37:01 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:37:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL screening Reply-To header thru DMARC ?
In-Reply-To: <20141018182627.2924.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <5442AB5F.7030707@msapiro.net> <20141018182627.2924.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <87lhodj6g2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

John Levine writes:

 > I would be surprised if AOL were doing DMARC checks on Reply-To,
 > and agree that it's not a problem worth solving.

I wouldn't.  As you know, John, we (dmarc at ietf.org) are all expecting
the spammers to emulate these DMARC mitigation various tricks.  If
they have any success, I would expect folks like AOL to do "something,
anything!" to mitigate *their* problem.

However, looking at the error message and noting Mark's testimony that

    AOL accepts the message on behalf of every AOL recipient except
    the original poster.

I guess that RLY:SN means "relay: screen name", and AOL is filtering
out "spam to self", an ancient trick to get past filters.



From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Oct 19 01:40:45 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:40:45 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL screening Reply-To header thru DMARC ?
In-Reply-To: <5442AB5F.7030707@msapiro.net>
References: <20141018053359.GB4221@panix.com>
	<5442AB5F.7030707@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87k33xj69u.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > If and when there is an accepted standard governing this behavior, I'll
 > consider it. In the mean time, I'm not interested in accommodating
 > non-compliant behavior by one rogue ESP.

I'm in complete sympathy, but unfortunately that rogue provider is
still the MTA for tens (hundreds?) of millions of users.

Note that although "wrap message" is unpopular with users, it's
unlikely to fall afoul of DMARC for quite a while (for that very
reason, as well as because it's relatively difficult to write the
checks, which would require bursting the message).


From eravin at panix.com  Sun Oct 19 02:19:57 2014
From: eravin at panix.com (Ed Ravin)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 20:19:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] AOL screening Reply-To header thru DMARC ?
In-Reply-To: <5442AB5F.7030707@msapiro.net>
References: <20141018053359.GB4221@panix.com>
 <5442AB5F.7030707@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20141019001956.GB11999@panix.com>

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:03:11AM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
...
> I have a somewhat different issue. I am using dmarc_moderation_action =
> Munge From, and when an AOL user posts to the list, the list message
> sent back to the user bounces with "521 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept
> delivery of this message. (in reply to end of DATA command))". The same
> messages sent to other AOL users are accepted by AOL.

>From your lips to AOL's ears!  I'm seeing that too.  A message
from an AOL user was bounced when sent back to the original user,
and AOL also bounced it going to the other AOL recipient on the test
list.

I think I'm going to have to set every AOL user to "no metoo", and
tell them if they want to see confirmation of their posts they need
to turn "ack" on.  I just tested it and there's no bouncing.  But
that's probably going to be a headache to maintain, so maybe I'll
switch to wrapped messages.

	-- Ed

From cruell at climatenetwork.org  Mon Oct 20 23:34:24 2014
From: cruell at climatenetwork.org (Charlene Ruell)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:34:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customizing information required for
	subscription
Message-ID: <00e001cfecad$9ebb0df0$dc3129d0$@climatenetwork.org>

Hello all,

 

Thanks so much for the recommendations regarding my query below!

 

The plot thickens as we are operating the lists via cPanel, so I am unsure
if the member add-on will work (thoughts?). However, I am also curious if
there is any way for our users to subscribe to multiple lists at once? We
have (or will have) around 9 or 10 on the same server and a large number of
users utilize multiple lists. I'm sure it is a long shot, but we would love
to streamline our process.

 

Many thanks in advance!

 

Warm Regards,

Charlene

______________________________________

Charlene Ruell

Program Assistant

Climate Action Network-International (CAN)

skype: charlene.ruell

cruell at climatenetwork.org

 



www.climatenetwork.org <http://www.climatenetwork.org/>  

www.facebook.com/CANInternational 

Twitter: @CANIntl

Subscribe to the ECO newsletter: http://climatenetwork.org/eco-newsletters 

 

From: Charlene Ruell [mailto:cruell at climatenetwork.org] 
Sent: 08 September 2014 8:14 PM
To: 'mailman-users at python.org'
Subject: Customizing information required for subscription

 

Hello all,

 

I am working with a non-profit organization to establish a new home for our
plethora of mailing lists. Mailman has quite a few features that we are
hoping will automate our currently labour intensive process. 

 

Currently, part of our subscription process involves gathering additional
information, such as which one of our member organizations the person
requesting access if from. We then match this information to our records and
subscribe those who are eligible. I have looked through all of the
documentation for Mailman and have not been able to find if there are
customizable fields for the subscription process. Does this exist? If not,
does anyone have any suggestions on how I might integrate such information
with the subscription process?

 

Many thanks in advance!

 

Warm Regards,

Charlene Ruell

______________________________________

Charlene Ruell

Program Assistant

Climate Action Network-International (CAN)

skype: charlene.ruell

cruell at climatenetwork.org

 



www.climatenetwork.org <http://www.climatenetwork.org/>  

www.facebook.com/CANInternational 

Twitter: @CANIntl

Subscribe to the ECO newsletter: http://climatenetwork.org/eco-newsletters 

 


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct 21 18:15:42 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:15:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customizing information required for
	subscription
In-Reply-To: <00e001cfecad$9ebb0df0$dc3129d0$@climatenetwork.org>
References: <00e001cfecad$9ebb0df0$dc3129d0$@climatenetwork.org>
Message-ID: <544686AE.1070707@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/2014 02:34 PM, Charlene Ruell wrote:
> 
> The plot thickens as we are operating the lists via cPanel, so I am unsure
> if the member add-on will work (thoughts?).


It depends on whether this is your own or a virtual private server or a
shared hosted server and what kind of access you have to it. If it is a
shared hosted server, you almost certainly won't be able to do or have
the host do any customization of Mailman.

Even if it is your own server and you have root access, customizing
cPanel Mailman can be tricky or at least different from standard Mailman.


> However, I am also curious if
> there is any way for our users to subscribe to multiple lists at once? We
> have (or will have) around 9 or 10 on the same server and a large number of
> users utilize multiple lists. I'm sure it is a long shot, but we would love
> to streamline our process.


Again, it depends on access. If you have enough access, creating your
own web subscribe process which invokes either the Mailman subscribe CGI
(multiple times, once per list) or the Mailman add_members script to do
the actual work is fairly straightforward. This could also collect the
additional info you want and store it somewhere outside of Mailman. See
the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/uIA9> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/Z4A9> for more.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Wed Oct 22 14:13:08 2014
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 12:13:08 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Htdig integration with Nginx - Path
	variables
Message-ID: <012fce303ee840f193bb07163341251a@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Hi all,

Wonder if someone could take a look at this for me?

I have moved our Mailman installation to Nginx.  Everything is working correctly, however, I am using the Htdig patch to get search functionality.

I got the split_path_info set up to work with Mailman, but I am having issues getting a working installation with the mmsearch script.  The initial page loads up, but when you refine the search or go to the next page, I get an error with the path splitting which causes the CGI to error.  I tried altering the path variable for the mmsearch script specifically, but the issue I am having is getting Nginx to split the path in the right place, since the scripts don't have an extension to work with (like I can use with PHP scripts etc.).  It's probably a simple fix, and I can set the location for the mmsearch script so it doesn't mess up the path variable for the other Mailman scripts if required.

My config is below, sorry for the formatting in my mailer.

Andrew.

# HTTP redirects - I had to use separate servers for each domain to stop redirecting to the wrong host
server {
        listen 80;
        server_name lists.domain1.com;
        access_log off;
        error_log off;
        rewrite ^ https://$server_name$request_uri?$query_string permanent;
}

server {
        listen 80;
        server_name lists.domain2.com;
        access_log off;
        error_log off;
        rewrite ^ https://$server_name$request_uri?$query_string permanent;
}

server {
        listen 443 ssl;
        server_name lists.domain1.com lists.domain2.com;
         access_log  /var/log/nginx/lists-access.log main;
        error_log  /var/log/nginx/lists-error.log warn;
        root /var/www/lists;
        ssl_certificate /path/to/cert.pem
        ssl_certificate_key /path/to/key.key
        ssl_protocols TLSv1 TLSv1.1 TLSv1.2;
        ssl_ciphers ECDH+AESGCM:DH+AESGCM:ECDH+AES256:DH+AES256:ECDH+AES128:DH+AES:ECDH+3DES:DH+3DES:RSA+AESGCM:RSA+AES:RSA+3DES:!aNULL:!MD5:!DSS;
        ssl_prefer_server_ciphers on;
        add_header Strict-Transport-Security "max-age=31536000; includeSubdomains";
        ssl_stapling on;
        ssl_stapling_verify on;

# Redirect to the listinfo page by default
        location = / {
                rewrite ^ /listinfo permanent;
        }

# Send the requests to the various scripts to the correct location. URL https://server/listinfo etc.
        location ~ ^/(admin|confirm|edithtml|listinfo|options|rmlist|subscribe|admindb|create|htdig|private|roster|mmsearch) {
                fastcgi_split_path_info (^/[^/]*)(.*)$;
                fastcgi_param SCRIPT_FILENAME /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/$fastcgi_script_name;
                fastcgi_param PATH_INFO $fastcgi_path_info;
                fastcgi_pass  unix:/var/run/fcgiwrap.socket;
                include /etc/nginx/fastcgi_params;
        }

        location /icons {
        alias /usr/local/mailman/icons;
        }

        location /pipermail {
                alias /usr/local/mailman/archives/public;
        }
        location /htdigimages {
                alias /var/lib/htdig/www;
        }
}

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Thu Oct 23 10:56:57 2014
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 08:56:57 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Htdig integration with Nginx -
	Path	variables
In-Reply-To: <012fce303ee840f193bb07163341251a@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <012fce303ee840f193bb07163341251a@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <53e6fd4f944d404f85e9d1df478adc93@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,

Sorry to reply to my own post.

The issue was actually twofold:

There was an issue with the HTTP to HTTPS redirection on the site, and because I hadn't set the public archives parameter in mm_cfg.py to HTTPS, the system was offering up HTTP URLS.  I did this and rebuilt the archives for all lists.

The second issue is that the htdig CGI needs to be using HTTP and not HTTPS.  I made this available under the HTTP context so nightly_htdig can crawl the archives.  The htdig script is now not available under HTTPS.

I can post my current config if required.

Thanks.
Andrew.

From greg at headingup.net  Fri Oct 24 17:20:10 2014
From: greg at headingup.net (Greg Sims)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 11:20:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman URLs on Subscribe Response
Message-ID: <CAOXbGWEVk+Rhr0Jz1DapjTXEABQXUVhsHW0uh=0A9jVXiQ9ieQ@mail.gmail.com>

I created the following subscription webpage for list name devotion-chinese:

http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/chinese-subscription

After clicking "Submit", the user will be transferred to:

http://lists.raystedman.org/mailman/subscribe/devotion-chinese

I updated subscribe.html so I can control the content of this page.

Is it possible for the user to be transferred to a URL that is under the
control of our CMS?  Perhaps I could use a pattern for all of the URLs
associated with this list like:

http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/devotion-chinese/*


This would allow the format of the subscription page and subscription
response page to have the same format (color, headers and the like).  I
tried to do this with a URL Rewrite in Apache but could not get it to
work.  I also searched the archives and did not find anything.

Thanks for helping me sort this out, Greg

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 24 23:06:05 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 14:06:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman URLs on Subscribe Response
In-Reply-To: <CAOXbGWEVk+Rhr0Jz1DapjTXEABQXUVhsHW0uh=0A9jVXiQ9ieQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOXbGWEVk+Rhr0Jz1DapjTXEABQXUVhsHW0uh=0A9jVXiQ9ieQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <544ABF3D.4000207@msapiro.net>

On 10/24/2014 08:20 AM, Greg Sims wrote:
> I created the following subscription webpage for list name devotion-chinese:
> 
> http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/chinese-subscription
> 
> After clicking "Submit", the user will be transferred to:
> 
> http://lists.raystedman.org/mailman/subscribe/devotion-chinese
> 
> I updated subscribe.html so I can control the content of this page.
> 
> Is it possible for the user to be transferred to a URL that is under the
> control of our CMS?  Perhaps I could use a pattern for all of the URLs
> associated with this list like:
> 
> http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/devotion-chinese/*


It is possible, but it's not straightforward and it requires that your
web pages actually be scripts that invoke Mailman's CGIs, receive the
results and present them to the user.

For example, your page at
http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/chinese-subscription has a
subscribe form which posts the form data to
http://lists.raystedman.org/mailman/subscribe/devotion-chinese which is
the URL for Maiman's 'subscribe' CGI for the 'devotion-chinese' list.

You can make the part through 'mailman/' anything you want by setting
that as the list's web_page_url attribute (See the 'Background' and 'The
next step' sections at <http://wiki.list.org/x/lYA9>).

However, the next parts are always the name of the Mailman CGI
('subscribe' in this case) and the list name in that order.

So, briefly, what you could do is have your form post to a CGI or PHP or
whatever script of your own at say
http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/devotion-chinese/subscribe.
That process in turn could post the data to
http://lists.raystedman.org/mailman/subscribe/devotion-chinese, receive
the results back and then present them to the user in your desired format.

Similar things can be done with the other 'list member' CGIs (confirm,
listinfo, options, private and roster). Presumably you wouldn't need to
do this for the list admin/moderator CGIs like admin, admindb, create,
edithtml and rmlist.

Note that you can't have Mailman generate URLs matching a pattern like

http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/devotion-chinese/*

Although it could match a pattern like

http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/*/devotion-chinese

i.e., the CGI name will always precede the list name. I suppose you
could give it a web_page_url like
http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/devotion-chinese/ which would
result in URLs like, e.g.,
http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/devotion-chinese/subscribe/devotion-chinese
with the first devotion-chinese being part of web_page_url and the
second being the actual list name.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Sat Oct 25 08:17:18 2014
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 01:17:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange rejection
Message-ID: <1414217838.38839.43.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

I'm moving mailing lists from one server to another using a couple of
scripts which I've used successfully many times before for other such
moves.  On the 3rd list I've moved (second domain name) I've run into a
very strange problem.  On trying to post to the list on the new server
my posts get delivered to the list and discarded with no further
explanation.  The vette logfile just says:

Oct 24 23:15:30 2014 (2180) Message discarded, msgid: <1414210524.38839.9.camel at pudina.fmp.com>

The Mailman version on the old system is 2.1.18, and 2.1.18-1 on the new
one.  The working environment is almost identical on both systems.  The
list configurations are completely identical. The two other lists which
I've already moved to the new location are working properly, as best I
can tell so far.  I'm subscribed to the list, which is an open
discussion list, added myself as a list moderator, and am on the
accept_these_nonmembers list (or not - it makes no difference) in case I
should get unsubscribed.

The only thing I see which _might_ make a difference is that the new
server is running Python 2.7.6 while the old one is running 2.7.3.

I backed out the move and posted to this problem list in its old
location, and the post went trough to the subscribers and the archive.
There are no other related entries in the Mailman log files - just
"Message discarded" in the vette file.

Is there any way to turn on more thorough debugging, or tracebacks if
there are hidden code glitches?  What could be causing this?  I'm
Python-literate and can read tracebacks and poke diagnostic code into
Mailman modules if someone can point me in the right direction to get to
the bottom of this.  I've got half a dozen or so lists to move so I have
to get this solved.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Everything works if you let it"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |          --- The Roadie
http://www.fmp.com    |


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 25 17:36:37 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 08:36:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange rejection
In-Reply-To: <1414217838.38839.43.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <1414217838.38839.43.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <544BC385.5050404@msapiro.net>

On 10/24/2014 11:17 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> The vette logfile just says:
> 
> Oct 24 23:15:30 2014 (2180) Message discarded, msgid: <1414210524.38839.9.camel at pudina.fmp.com>


Some handler in the pipeline is discarding the message. More below.

> Is there any way to turn on more thorough debugging, or tracebacks if
> there are hidden code glitches?


At some point I augmented he vette logging for rejects to include the
name of the handler and the reject reason. I jhought I had done
something similar for discards, but I didn't.


> What could be causing this?  I'm
> Python-literate and can read tracebacks and poke diagnostic code into
> Mailman modules if someone can point me in the right direction to get to
> the bottom of this.  I've got half a dozen or so lists to move so I have
> to get this solved.


In Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py, in the _dopipeline() method look at
the code for the except Errors.DiscardMessage: clause
 and the except Errors.RejectMessage, e: clause. Augment the syslog
message in except Errors.DiscardMessage: similarly to that in except
Errors.RejectMessage, e:, except there is no 'e' in the discard case so
you can't include the 'reason:' part.

Note that the only standard handlers that discard messages are

MimeDel: Content filtering -> filter_action = Discard
Moderate: Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
      member_moderation_action
      dmarc_moderation_action
      discard_these_nonmembers
      generic_nonmember_action
Scrubber: if Non-digest options -> scrub_nondigest is Yes and
      mm_cfg.ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER = 0 and the outer message
      is text/html
SpamDetect: Privacy options... -> Spam filters -> header_filter_rules
          with discard action
      header matches something in mm_cfg.KNOWN_SPAMMERS


If you examine the above for Discard actions and maybe (temporarily)
change them to Hold, that may help.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Sat Oct 25 18:20:29 2014
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 11:20:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange rejection
In-Reply-To: <544BC385.5050404@msapiro.net>
References: <1414217838.38839.43.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <544BC385.5050404@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1414254029.38839.68.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Sat, 2014-10-25 at 08:36 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> In Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py, in the _dopipeline() method look at
> the code for the except Errors.DiscardMessage: clause
>  and the except Errors.RejectMessage, e: clause. Augment the syslog
> message in except Errors.DiscardMessage: similarly to that in except
> Errors.RejectMessage, e:, except there is no 'e' in the discard case so
> you can't include the 'reason:' part.

Thanks, Mark!  This will at least tell me where my posts are getting
nuked.

Does this look correct?

--- IncomingRunner.py.orig	2014-10-25 10:53:02.000000000 -0500
+++ IncomingRunner.py	2014-10-25 11:03:40.000000000 -0500
@@ -157,8 +157,11 @@
                     os._exit(1)
             except Errors.DiscardMessage:
                 # Throw the message away; we need do nothing else with it.
-                syslog('vette', 'Message discarded, msgid: %s',
-                       msg.get('message-id', 'n/a'))
+                syslog('vette', """Message discarded, msgid: %s
+         list: %s,
+         handler: %s""",
+                      msg.get('message-id', 'n/a'),
+                      mlist.real_name, handler)
                 return 0
             except Errors.HoldMessage:
                 # Let the approval process take it from here.  The message no

A test list posts correctly, so no stupid syntax or indentation errors
(which shouldn't be a problem anyway since the added code is all inside
a function call argument list)

I'm a great fan of intelligent logging!  This would be a good mod for a
future version of MM 2.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Everything works if you let it"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |          --- The Roadie
http://www.fmp.com    |


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 25 19:50:05 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 10:50:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange rejection
In-Reply-To: <1414254029.38839.68.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <1414217838.38839.43.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <544BC385.5050404@msapiro.net> <1414254029.38839.68.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <544BE2CD.3060701@msapiro.net>

On 10/25/2014 09:20 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> Does this look correct?
> 
> --- IncomingRunner.py.orig	2014-10-25 10:53:02.000000000 -0500
> +++ IncomingRunner.py	2014-10-25 11:03:40.000000000 -0500
> @@ -157,8 +157,11 @@
>                      os._exit(1)
>              except Errors.DiscardMessage:
>                  # Throw the message away; we need do nothing else with it.
> -                syslog('vette', 'Message discarded, msgid: %s',
> -                       msg.get('message-id', 'n/a'))
> +                syslog('vette', """Message discarded, msgid: %s
> +         list: %s,
> +         handler: %s""",
> +                      msg.get('message-id', 'n/a'),
> +                      mlist.real_name, handler)
>                  return 0
>              except Errors.HoldMessage:
>                  # Let the approval process take it from here.  The message no


Yes, it looks right.


> A test list posts correctly, so no stupid syntax or indentation errors
> (which shouldn't be a problem anyway since the added code is all inside
> a function call argument list)
> 
> I'm a great fan of intelligent logging!  This would be a good mod for a
> future version of MM 2.


I plan to do it. I don't know why I didn't do it at the same time as the
reject logging enhancement, but I'll do it now.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 25 22:44:41 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 13:44:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Htdig integration with Nginx -
	Path	variables
In-Reply-To: <53e6fd4f944d404f85e9d1df478adc93@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <012fce303ee840f193bb07163341251a@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <53e6fd4f944d404f85e9d1df478adc93@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <544C0BB9.702@msapiro.net>

On 10/23/2014 01:56 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
> 
> The second issue is that the htdig CGI needs to be using HTTP and not HTTPS.  I made this available under the HTTP context so nightly_htdig can crawl the archives.  The htdig script is now not available under HTTPS.


At one point I ran into this on my own site when trying to
unconditionally use HTTPS. I looked at it at the time, and I think htdig
can be made to use HTTPS, but I never followed up with it.

Maybe I'll look again.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rclemings at gmail.com  Sat Oct 25 23:33:09 2014
From: rclemings at gmail.com (Russell Clemings)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 14:33:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Change Mailman URLs on Subscribe Response
Message-ID: <CAN7RX0ZEe5h700gZWqiFKiJ8mLZNGDkwPC0N1T5ci_q2dK67BA@mail.gmail.com>

Since you're using Drupal (http://www.raystedman.org/CHANGELOG.txt), you
might want to look at the User Mailman Register module:

https://www.drupal.org/project/user_mailman_register

It allows you to manage Mailman subscriptions from within your Drupal
installation. Your users will never need to see the Mailman pages.

(By the way your Drupal installation is extremely out of date ... and you
really should hide that CHANGELOG.txt file so that people like me can't
find out so easily that your Drupal installation is extremely out of date.)

rac

From tracey at fairhousing.com  Sun Oct 26 01:23:51 2014
From: tracey at fairhousing.com (Tracey McCartney)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 18:23:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman URLs on Subscribe Response
In-Reply-To: <CAN7RX0ZEe5h700gZWqiFKiJ8mLZNGDkwPC0N1T5ci_q2dK67BA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN7RX0ZEe5h700gZWqiFKiJ8mLZNGDkwPC0N1T5ci_q2dK67BA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1fcf01cff0aa$bd514440$37f3ccc0$@fairhousing.com>

Ooh, that's an interesting module.  I currently have a Drupal site where
people who want to join my list sign into Drupal using a special account
I've set up, then go through a Webform that explains the list rules and then
get forwarded to the Mailman subscription page.  I wonder if this would be a
more elegant solution.  Thanks for posting that.


Tracey

-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+tracey=fairhousing.com at python.org] On Behalf
Of Russell Clemings
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:33 PM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman URLs on Subscribe Response

Since you're using Drupal (http://www.raystedman.org/CHANGELOG.txt), you
might want to look at the User Mailman Register module:

https://www.drupal.org/project/user_mailman_register

It allows you to manage Mailman subscriptions from within your Drupal
installation. Your users will never need to see the Mailman pages.

(By the way your Drupal installation is extremely out of date ... and you
really should hide that CHANGELOG.txt file so that people like me can't find
out so easily that your Drupal installation is extremely out of date.)

rac
------------------------------------------------------
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http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives:
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Unsubscribe:
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From rclemings at gmail.com  Sun Oct 26 01:43:26 2014
From: rclemings at gmail.com (Russell Clemings)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 16:43:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman URLs on Subscribe Response
Message-ID: <CAN7RX0arwm8pePt2PncyCRYz_-6OMad=w-yZ9UX1j6x+YyLO0Q@mail.gmail.com>

It would be a little different. The main difference is that the Mailman
subscriptions are linked to the Drupal user account, so each subscriber
would need to be a Drupal user.

I think there's also a way to import existing Mailman subscriptions and
create Drupal users for them, but I may be remembering a different module,
Mailman Manager: https://www.drupal.org/project/mailman_manager

rac



> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Tracey McCartney <tracey at fairhousing.com>
> To: <mailman-users at python.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 18:23:51 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman URLs on Subscribe Response
> Ooh, that's an interesting module.  I currently have a Drupal site where
> people who want to join my list sign into Drupal using a special account
> I've set up, then go through a Webform that explains the list rules and
> then
> get forwarded to the Mailman subscription page.  I wonder if this would be
> a
> more elegant solution.  Thanks for posting that.
>
>
> Tracey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users
> [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+tracey=fairhousing.com at python.org] On Behalf
> Of Russell Clemings
> Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 4:33 PM
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman URLs on Subscribe Response
>
> Since you're using Drupal (http://www.raystedman.org/CHANGELOG.txt), you
> might want to look at the User Mailman Register module:
>
> https://www.drupal.org/project/user_mailman_register
>
> It allows you to manage Mailman subscriptions from within your Drupal
> installation. Your users will never need to see the Mailman pages.
>
> (By the way your Drupal installation is extremely out of date ... and you
> really should hide that CHANGELOG.txt file so that people like me can't
> find
> out so easily that your Drupal installation is extremely out of date.)
>
> rac
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy:
> http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/tracey%40fairhousing.c
> om
>
>
>
>
>

From eravin at panix.com  Sun Oct 26 03:42:34 2014
From: eravin at panix.com (Ed Ravin)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 22:42:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Squirrelmail and wrapped messages
Message-ID: <20141026024234.GC17207@panix.com>

I've converted a list to Mailman, and as I posted previously, I
decided to use "wrapped" messages to keep AOL's hairtrigger spam
filters from discarding incoming messages from AOL users.

Now I'm getting complaints from Outlook 2007 and Squirrelmail
users that the messages from Mailman show up as text attachments
that aren't automatically displayed or previewed.

It looks like Outlook 2007 users can turn previewing on, but I don't
see any such options for Squirrelmail.

How have other Mailman admins dealt with this?

I wonder if it's possible to to make wrapped messages a user preference,
or have them only turned on for certain domains as discussed previously.
Is this a patch that would be accepted in the future?

	-- Ed

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct 26 19:20:24 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 11:20:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Squirrelmail and wrapped messages
In-Reply-To: <20141026024234.GC17207@panix.com>
References: <20141026024234.GC17207@panix.com>
Message-ID: <544D3B68.8040306@msapiro.net>

On 10/25/2014 07:42 PM, Ed Ravin wrote:
> I've converted a list to Mailman, and as I posted previously, I
> decided to use "wrapped" messages to keep AOL's hairtrigger spam
> filters from discarding incoming messages from AOL users.


I'm not sure what your specific AOL issue is, but as I posted previously
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-October/077908.html>,
I don't see it, at least not in the form that you appear to.


> Now I'm getting complaints from Outlook 2007 and Squirrelmail
> users that the messages from Mailman show up as text attachments
> that aren't automatically displayed or previewed.


That is a problem with some MUAs. Some are just plain bad at rendering
messages with message/rfc822 subparts like the DMARC wrapped messages
and MIME format digests.


> It looks like Outlook 2007 users can turn previewing on, but I don't
> see any such options for Squirrelmail.


There probably aren't any in Squirrelmail.


> How have other Mailman admins dealt with this?


Ultimately, I relented and set dmarc_moderation_action to Munge From. I
didn't want to, but there were too many complaints about the wrapped
messages. If I understand correctly, you at least think that AOL doesn't
like your messages with munged from because of the address in Reply-To:.
Note that the AOL SMTP response you posted earlier was a 421 status that
is a retryable error. Did the retry succeed. If so, this is more like
greylisting than rejection.


> I wonder if it's possible to to make wrapped messages a user preference,
> or have them only turned on for certain domains as discussed previously.
> Is this a patch that would be accepted in the future?


Mailman 2.1.18-1 has the ability to only apply DMARC mitigations to
messages From: domains that publish DMARC p=reject and optionally
p=quarantine policies. But, I think what you mean by "certain domains"
is messages To: a certain domain like aol.com, and Mailman doesn't do
that. It wouldn't be too difficult to patch Mailman to do that, but I
have no plan to do that.

There is no plan to make the choice between wrapping vs. munging From: a
user option, but it could be considered for a future release.

The bottom line is DMARC forces choices on a list manager, none of which
are totally transparent to the list user experience.

You can always set dmarc_moderation_action to reject and provide a
rejection message which tells the poster that posts from domains with
DMARC p=reject (or quarantine) policies are not accepted and they need
to find another freemail ESP to use for posting.

On the other hand, As I posted before, I don't see that your issue with
AOL is a DMARC issue at all.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Oct 27 22:17:10 2014
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 16:17:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange rejection - THANKS!!!
In-Reply-To: <544BC385.5050404@msapiro.net>
References: <1414217838.38839.43.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <544BC385.5050404@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1414444630.16506.38.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Sat, 2014-10-25 at 08:36 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/24/2014 11:17 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> > The vette logfile just says:
> > 
> > Oct 24 23:15:30 2014 (2180) Message discarded, msgid: <1414210524.38839.9.camel at pudina.fmp.com>

> In Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py, in the _dopipeline() method look at
> the code for the except Errors.DiscardMessage: clause
>  and the except Errors.RejectMessage, e: clause. Augment the syslog
> message in except Errors.DiscardMessage: similarly to that in except
> Errors.RejectMessage, e:, except there is no 'e' in the discard case so
> you can't include the 'reason:' part.
> 
> Note that the only standard handlers that discard messages are
> 
> [..snip]
>
> SpamDetect: Privacy options... -> Spam filters -> header_filter_rules
>           with discard action
>       header matches something in mm_cfg.KNOWN_SPAMMERS

With the help of the vette logging enhancement which Mark suggested, I
isolated the problem to the SpamDetect handler and tracked it down to a
filter rule which objected to the regexp ".*SpamAssassin" in any header.
For some reason this was showing up in the header of my inbound posts
(which were coming in remotely from FMP's other server) but not when
Mailman and this list were running on on the same host as the mail
server handling my personal SMTP service.  I don't know if I've
fine-tuned SpamAssassin on the new host box either.  That's a
substantial job!

So again, heartfelt thanks to Mark for pointing me in the right
direction.  This is one of the reasons I like open source software :)

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Everything works if you let it"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190          |          --- The Roadie
http://www.fmp.com    |


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 27 23:35:16 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 15:35:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange rejection - THANKS!!!
In-Reply-To: <1414444630.16506.38.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <1414217838.38839.43.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <544BC385.5050404@msapiro.net> <1414444630.16506.38.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <544EC8A4.6070009@msapiro.net>

On 10/27/2014 02:17 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> With the help of the vette logging enhancement which Mark suggested,
> ...
> 
> So again, heartfelt thanks to Mark for pointing me in the right
> direction.  This is one of the reasons I like open source software :)



You're welcome and community is one of the things I really like about
open source too.

Also, I have committed the vette logging enhancement for the next release.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Oct 28 03:06:58 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 11:06:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Squirrelmail and wrapped messages
In-Reply-To: <20141026024234.GC17207@panix.com>
References: <20141026024234.GC17207@panix.com>
Message-ID: <87y4s13q2l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Ed Ravin writes:

 > How have other Mailman admins dealt with this?

The only ways to deal with deficient MUAs are Plan A = pander and Plan
B = tell their users to suck it up and shut up.  I won't do Plan A and
have the power to do Plan B, so Plan B is what I use.  That doesn't
work for everybody, probably does not for a majority of list owners
(eg, where the users of deficient MUAs are customers).

The situation is not ideal.  Yahoo! and AOL knew that going in, they
thought about it, and chose to do it anyway.  So *we* have to suck it
up.

There is ongoing work at the IETF to see if we can mitigate the
problem better in the future (and Yahoo! at least seems willing to
work with those Yahoo!-side mitigations -- AOL has not yet
demonstrated an understanding of the issues), but for now we list
owners have an unpleasant choice to make.

 > I wonder if it's possible to to make wrapped messages a user preference,
 > or have them only turned on for certain domains as discussed previously.
 > Is this a patch that would be accepted in the future?

As Mark mentioned, applying only to posts From domains that use
"p=reject" is possible in 2.1.18-1.

Acceptance of a patch to make it a user preference might be acceptable
(that's entirely up to Mark), but it would have to be carefully done
to ensure that *some* mitigation (probably From-munging) would be
applied if the list owner specified she wants mitigation.  That's
because failure to apply to mitigation to messages that would be DMARC
rejected affects third parties (to the extent that the bounces can't
be identified as DMARC rejects, they will be scored as bounces from
those subscribers, and innocent[1] subscribers could have their
subscriptions disabled).

Footnotes: 
[1]  Though not entirely so.  Concealing the fact that the reject was
a DMARC policy reject is not useful since it says very little about
*destination* policy, even if the destination prefers to conceal its
own security policy to present a smaller attack surface.


From exim4debian at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 16:30:15 2014
From: exim4debian at gmail.com (James Nightly)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 08:30:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Images on iPhone's not loading
Message-ID: <CAAQH7AdaUAW9tMwVESYf37saOjDpH4aBZ8QDpOz40bAm65tnNw@mail.gmail.com>

Our school newsletter often has a few images accompanying news
articles. These images load fine on android phones and in regular
computer browsers. Images do now show on the same message and email
account when viewed on iPhone's. On iPhone all I see is an outline of
an image with file name and none of the images load/show.
Articles/text loads fine.

filter_content is set to No
iPhone settings > Email > Load email images is enabled

We are on v. Mailman 1:2.1.18-1, Debian 3.16.3-2

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Thu Oct 30 03:34:58 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 13:34:58 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Squirrelmail and wrapped messages
In-Reply-To: <87y4s13q2l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20141026024234.GC17207@panix.com>
 <87y4s13q2l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001826088CB@nuwvicms2>

>  > I wonder if it's possible to to make wrapped messages a 
> user preference,  > or have them only turned on for certain 
> domains as discussed previously.
>  > Is this a patch that would be accepted in the future?
> 
> As Mark mentioned, applying only to posts From domains that 
> use "p=reject" is possible in 2.1.18-1.
> 
> Acceptance of a patch to make it a user preference might be 
> acceptable (that's entirely up to Mark), but it would have to 
> be carefully done to ensure that *some* mitigation (probably 
> From-munging) would be applied if the list owner specified 
> she wants mitigation.  That's because failure to apply to 
> mitigation to messages that would be DMARC rejected affects 
> third parties (to the extent that the bounces can't be 
> identified as DMARC rejects, they will be scored as bounces 
> from those subscribers, and innocent[1] subscribers could 
> have their subscriptions disabled).

I can't see how wrapping would work for us, there are just too many different mail clients involved, and I assume the same would apply to lots of lists. I'd prefer if the user experience was uniform. 

We mung just the affected emails. That means there are two styles of emails being sent out, but at least each type can be read the same way by everyone. If the affected memebers don't want to be munged, then they'll have to change mail providers.

I also can't see it working to let the sender choose how their emails will be treated. There are so many side effects of each different treatment, and the user is only able to test the results with their own mail client. They'll inevitably choose the one that works best for them, and wonder why other people are messing up the replies to their messages.

Peter Shute

From brian at rudyconnect.com  Wed Oct 29 18:32:29 2014
From: brian at rudyconnect.com (Brian Rudy)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 10:32:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing ports doesn't seem to work
Message-ID: <545124AD.1090602@rudyconnect.com>

Hello all,

Due to changing ISP's I was forced to change my web port to something 
other than 80.  On port 80, everything was working well. I moved all of 
my web interfaces to port 8000.  I thought I followed the instructions 
correctly and did:

bin/withlist -l -r fix_url <listname>


It seems to work fine using 
http://host.example.com:8000/mailman/admin/<listname> but any link I 
click on doesn't add in the port number (:8000) so by default, it's 
trying port 80.  Is there any way around that?  If I manually copy the 
link and paste it in the url of the browser and manually add in the 
:8000 the link works fine.  The problem then is when I try to submit 
something... It doesn't take.

I would appreciate any assistance.

Thank you,
Brian


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Oct 30 04:41:26 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 12:41:26 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Suspected Spam]  Images on iPhone's not loading
In-Reply-To: <CAAQH7AdaUAW9tMwVESYf37saOjDpH4aBZ8QDpOz40bAm65tnNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQH7AdaUAW9tMwVESYf37saOjDpH4aBZ8QDpOz40bAm65tnNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87sii62pi1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

James Nightly writes:

 > Our school newsletter often has a few images accompanying news
 > articles. These images load fine on android phones and in regular
 > computer browsers. Images do now show on the same message and email

You mean "not show", I suppose?

 > account when viewed on iPhone's. On iPhone all I see is an outline of
 > an image with file name and none of the images load/show.

This is likely an iPhone AppleMail issue.  It is known that it does
not handle MIME structure well.  I'm not sure, the Gmail app may do
better (for Gmail users only, of course).  Are these messages HTML
with cid hrefs, or are they MIME-structured with multipart/mixed?  Are
you reporting based on your own experience?  Have you tried the Gmail
app instead of AppleMail?  (These questions are diagnostic, I'm not
suggesting that you tell your users to switch.)


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 30 05:05:12 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 21:05:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing ports doesn't seem to work
In-Reply-To: <545124AD.1090602@rudyconnect.com>
References: <545124AD.1090602@rudyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <5451B8F8.5040309@msapiro.net>

On 10/29/2014 10:32 AM, Brian Rudy wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> Due to changing ISP's I was forced to change my web port to something
> other than 80.  On port 80, everything was working well. I moved all of
> my web interfaces to port 8000.  I thought I followed the instructions
> correctly and did:
> 
> bin/withlist -l -r fix_url <listname>


You don't say, but before running fix_url did you add

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s:8000/mailman/'

to mm_cfg.py?


> It seems to work fine using
> http://host.example.com:8000/mailman/admin/<listname> but any link I
> click on doesn't add in the port number (:8000) so by default, it's
> trying port 80.  Is there any way around that?  If I manually copy the
> link and paste it in the url of the browser and manually add in the
> :8000 the link works fine.  The problem then is when I try to submit
> something... It doesn't take.


If you added the port to DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN as above before running
fix_url, I can only guess that the issue has something to do with your
browser getting confused over relative URLs.

However, your comment above about copying/pasting the link and adding
the :8000 makes me think you didn't add the port to DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN
as above before running fix_url, although I suppose it could still be a
browser/relative URL issue.

View the source of the web page and look at the href= URLs. If they are
of form http://host.example.com/mailman/admin/<listname>... without the
:8000, then you need to be sure you have

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s:8000/mailman/'

in mm_cfg.py and run fix_url again.

If they are of form ../admin/<listname>... (i.e.relative) it is your
browser that's at fault, but this seems unlikely.

If it is the browser not handling relative URLs properly, the only way
to make Mailman generate absolute URLs is to edit Mailman/Utils.py and
change the line

def ScriptURL(target, web_page_url=None, absolute=False):

to

def ScriptURL(target, web_page_url=None, absolute=True):

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Oct 30 06:44:31 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 14:44:31 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Squirrelmail and wrapped messages
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001826088CB@nuwvicms2>
References: <20141026024234.GC17207@panix.com>
 <87y4s13q2l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001826088CB@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <87lhny2jsw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Peter Shute writes:

 > I can't see how wrapping would work for us, there are just too many
 > different mail clients involved, and I assume the same would apply
 > to lots of lists.

Agreed.  I wrap because I *can*; my XEmacs lists have no Yahoo! or AOL
posters who would cause complaints, and my student list members
wouldn't dare complain. :-)  Practically speaking, wrapping is an
option only because we (I know Mark agrees with me, at least) want to
provide a fully RFC-compliant workaround, even if in practice the MUAs
force lists to use munging.

 > I also can't see it working to let the sender choose how their
 > emails will be treated.

I don't think anybody is thinking of that.


From exim4debian at gmail.com  Thu Oct 30 16:00:15 2014
From: exim4debian at gmail.com (James Nightly)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 08:00:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Suspected Spam] Images on iPhone's not loading
In-Reply-To: <87sii62pi1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQH7AdaUAW9tMwVESYf37saOjDpH4aBZ8QDpOz40bAm65tnNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <87sii62pi1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAAQH7AdCktgpUFbrUtYmTDNKBDBjtUHDXeBoARaPBFaNXTGnbA@mail.gmail.com>

I think the issue is dmarc_moderation_action which we use to wrap the
message or munge the headers. This works great for our Yahoo and AOL
parents -- school newsletter is not spam filtered anymore.

These messages are all HTML MIME-structured with multipart/mixed.
Its a global issue, not a single iPhone/email/user -- its everyone
with an iPhone, they can't read our newsletter. Images do not load.
I tried using Gmail app and it seems to work! iPhone Mail app does not
load images in the same message/account/phone/network.

From brian at rudyconnect.com  Thu Oct 30 16:16:45 2014
From: brian at rudyconnect.com (Brian Rudy)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 08:16:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing ports doesn't seem to work
In-Reply-To: <5451B8F8.5040309@msapiro.net>
References: <545124AD.1090602@rudyconnect.com> <5451B8F8.5040309@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5452565D.6030003@rudyconnect.com>

Made the changes that Mark directed me to do and everything works the 
way it should.

Thank you Mark,
Much appreciated.
On 10/29/2014 9:05 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/29/2014 10:32 AM, Brian Rudy wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Due to changing ISP's I was forced to change my web port to something
>> other than 80.  On port 80, everything was working well. I moved all of
>> my web interfaces to port 8000.  I thought I followed the instructions
>> correctly and did:
>>
>> bin/withlist -l -r fix_url <listname>
>
> You don't say, but before running fix_url did you add
>
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s:8000/mailman/'
>
> to mm_cfg.py?
>
>
>> It seems to work fine using
>> http://host.example.com:8000/mailman/admin/<listname> but any link I
>> click on doesn't add in the port number (:8000) so by default, it's
>> trying port 80.  Is there any way around that?  If I manually copy the
>> link and paste it in the url of the browser and manually add in the
>> :8000 the link works fine.  The problem then is when I try to submit
>> something... It doesn't take.
>
> If you added the port to DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN as above before running
> fix_url, I can only guess that the issue has something to do with your
> browser getting confused over relative URLs.
>
> However, your comment above about copying/pasting the link and adding
> the :8000 makes me think you didn't add the port to DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN
> as above before running fix_url, although I suppose it could still be a
> browser/relative URL issue.
>
> View the source of the web page and look at the href= URLs. If they are
> of form http://host.example.com/mailman/admin/<listname>... without the
> :8000, then you need to be sure you have
>
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s:8000/mailman/'
>
> in mm_cfg.py and run fix_url again.
>
> If they are of form ../admin/<listname>... (i.e.relative) it is your
> browser that's at fault, but this seems unlikely.
>
> If it is the browser not handling relative URLs properly, the only way
> to make Mailman generate absolute URLs is to edit Mailman/Utils.py and
> change the line
>
> def ScriptURL(target, web_page_url=None, absolute=False):
>
> to
>
> def ScriptURL(target, web_page_url=None, absolute=True):
>



From adamsca at gmail.com  Thu Oct 30 17:03:48 2014
From: adamsca at gmail.com (Christopher Adams)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 09:03:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] config.pck files
Message-ID: <CAA13W+8outG7uhGmbdJ+s2AGuDJyiSkqHYVdoNq5Xp-z5AuDtg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

A list that is hosted here reported that the membership list and other
settings had reverted to previous content.

I took a look at the files and see this:

-rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 14526 Oct 30 08:00 config.pck
-rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 48950 Sep 29 13:15 config.pck.corrupt
-rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 14526 Oct 30 08:00 config.pck.last
-rw-rw---- 1 apache  mailman 49499 Sep 29 16:38 config.pck.safety

It looks like the config.pck file was corrupt. Just for clarification, what
are the other config.pck* files ? Since teh config.pck.safety looks like it
is much larger in size, and I ran ./dumpdb to read it and it appears to be
more current data, I am thinking that I can use it to overwrite the
config.pck, which apparently was used because the file was corrupt.

Can someone explain how these files work when the file becomes corrupt?

Can I just copy the config.pck.safety to config.pck ?

Many thanks


-- 
Christopher Adams
adamsca at gmail.com

From glibersat at sigill.org  Thu Oct 30 15:48:38 2014
From: glibersat at sigill.org (Guillaume Libersat)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 15:48:38 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM3/Delivery Problem
Message-ID: <54524FC6.9090107@sigill.org>

Hi,

We're running a mailman 3.0.0b at ulists.org and so far it was working
quite well. Since a few days, email delivery seems to be broken, but
only for the posts, not bounces.
When someone subscribes, he gets the welcome message.
When someone posts, nothing is delivered. Same when posting from hyperkitty.

Here's what happens when en email is sent to a list:

On the MM3 side:

Oct 30 15:34:36 2014 (1387)
<20141030143436.1389.15086 at mailman.ulists.org> smtp to test at ulists.org
for 1 recips, completed in 0.0919508934021 seconds
Oct 30 15:34:36 2014 (1387)
<20141030143436.1389.15086 at mailman.ulists.org> post to test at ulists.org
from test-request at ulists.org, 1177 bytes

and on the smtp side:

Oct 30 15:34:36 mailman postfix/qmgr[7675]: CEF7719628BC:
from=<glibersat at unisson.co>, size=718, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Oct 30 15:34:36 mailman postfix/lmtp[2526]: CEF7719628BC:
to=<test at ulists.org>, relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:8024, delay=0.14,
delays=0.0
6/0.04/0/0.04, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Ok)
Oct 30 15:34:36 mailman postfix/qmgr[7675]: CEF7719628BC: removed

Any idea of what I should check?

Thanks a lot !

Guillaume

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 30 20:13:06 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 12:13:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM3/Delivery Problem
In-Reply-To: <54524FC6.9090107@sigill.org>
References: <54524FC6.9090107@sigill.org>
Message-ID: <54528DC2.6050706@msapiro.net>

On 10/30/2014 07:48 AM, Guillaume Libersat wrote:
> 
> We're running a mailman 3.0.0b at ulists.org and so far it was working
> quite well. Since a few days, email delivery seems to be broken, but
> only for the posts, not bounces.
> When someone subscribes, he gets the welcome message.
> When someone posts, nothing is delivered. Same when posting from hyperkitty.


I'll note a few things below, but this list is mostly still oriented
towards Mailman 2.1. The MM 3 folks pay much more attention to the
mailman-developers at python.org list and the #mailman irc channel on
freenode.net.


> Here's what happens when en email is sent to a list:
> 
> On the MM3 side:
> 
> Oct 30 15:34:36 2014 (1387)
> <20141030143436.1389.15086 at mailman.ulists.org> smtp to test at ulists.org
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.0919508934021 seconds
> Oct 30 15:34:36 2014 (1387)
> <20141030143436.1389.15086 at mailman.ulists.org> post to test at ulists.org
> from test-request at ulists.org, 1177 bytes


This says the post was sent to 1 recipient. If there's nothing in
Mailman's smtp-failure log, it was accepted by the outgong MTA.


> and on the smtp side:
> 
> Oct 30 15:34:36 mailman postfix/qmgr[7675]: CEF7719628BC:
> from=<glibersat at unisson.co>, size=718, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
> Oct 30 15:34:36 mailman postfix/lmtp[2526]: CEF7719628BC:
> to=<test at ulists.org>, relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:8024, delay=0.14,
> delays=0.0
> 6/0.04/0/0.04, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Ok)
> Oct 30 15:34:36 mailman postfix/qmgr[7675]: CEF7719628BC: removed


This is the incoming post being delivered to Mailman. We already know
that succeeded.


> Any idea of what I should check?


What is in the outgoing MTA logs for the post from
test-bounces at ulists.org to the list member?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 30 20:52:30 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 12:52:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] config.pck files
In-Reply-To: <CAA13W+8outG7uhGmbdJ+s2AGuDJyiSkqHYVdoNq5Xp-z5AuDtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA13W+8outG7uhGmbdJ+s2AGuDJyiSkqHYVdoNq5Xp-z5AuDtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <545296FE.3080501@msapiro.net>

On 10/30/2014 09:03 AM, Christopher Adams wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> A list that is hosted here reported that the membership list and other
> settings had reverted to previous content.
> 
> I took a look at the files and see this:
> 
> -rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 14526 Oct 30 08:00 config.pck
> -rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 48950 Sep 29 13:15 config.pck.corrupt
> -rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 14526 Oct 30 08:00 config.pck.last
> -rw-rw---- 1 apache  mailman 49499 Sep 29 16:38 config.pck.safety


Where there any config.db.* files? A problem is that between Mailman 2.0
and 2.1 this file changed from a marshal (config.db) to a pickle
(config.pck). The upgrade process migrated the file, but if the
config.db* files were not then manually removed, what can happen is
later (perhaps years later) the config.pck files become somehow
corrupted. Mailman tries the files in the order config.pck,
config.pck.last, config.db and config.db.last, and the first one it can
successfully load is used. This can be a config.db which rolls back the
list to a possibly way earlier state.


> It looks like the config.pck file was corrupt. Just for clarification, what
> are the other config.pck* files ?


Every time Mailman saves a list's state, it makes a file named
config.pck.tmp.<hostname>.<pid> and saves the list's state there and
then removes config.pck.last, renames config.pck to config.pck.last and
finally renames config.pck.tmp.<hostname>.<pid> to config.pck.

So there is always a current config.pck and the immediately prior
config.pck.last.

When Mailman tries to load a config.pck and has to fall back to a prior
file, it logs that fact in the 'error' log which see, and it renames the
current config.pck to config.pck.corrupt and also copies the recovered
file to config.pck and to config.pck.safety.


> Since teh config.pck.safety looks like it
> is much larger in size, and I ran ./dumpdb to read it and it appears to be
> more current data, I am thinking that I can use it to overwrite the
> config.pck, which apparently was used because the file was corrupt.
> 
> Can someone explain how these files work when the file becomes corrupt?


See above, and see all the error log messages relating to this.

It is unclear exactly what the issue was here. It apparently occurred on
Sept 29. The error log from that time may help understand the sequence.


> Can I just copy the config.pck.safety to config.pck ?


If you can successfully dump it with bin/dumpdb, you can copy it to
config.pck and that should work. To be absolutely safe, you could run
'bin/withlist -l <listname>' to lock the list, then do the copy from
another terminal and then type control-D to exit the withlist session
and unlock the list. Otherwise you run the risk that Mailman or the web
UI is updating the list just as you do the copy.

Also, when you're done and the list works, remove or move aside the
config.db* files if any and the .corrupt and .safety files.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 30 21:24:06 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 13:24:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Images on iPhone's not loading
In-Reply-To: <CAAQH7AdCktgpUFbrUtYmTDNKBDBjtUHDXeBoARaPBFaNXTGnbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQH7AdaUAW9tMwVESYf37saOjDpH4aBZ8QDpOz40bAm65tnNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <87sii62pi1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQH7AdCktgpUFbrUtYmTDNKBDBjtUHDXeBoARaPBFaNXTGnbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54529E66.5040502@msapiro.net>

On 10/30/2014 08:00 AM, James Nightly wrote:
> I think the issue is dmarc_moderation_action which we use to wrap the
> message or munge the headers. This works great for our Yahoo and AOL
> parents -- school newsletter is not spam filtered anymore.
> 
> These messages are all HTML MIME-structured with multipart/mixed.
> Its a global issue, not a single iPhone/email/user -- its everyone
> with an iPhone, they can't read our newsletter. Images do not load.
> I tried using Gmail app and it seems to work! iPhone Mail app does not
> load images in the same message/account/phone/network.


This issue is with the iPhone Mail app, and only Apple can fix it.

I can't say whether complaining to them will help, but sending them a
copy of the raw email and explaining what's deficient with their
rendering may help.

In the mean time note that the major reason I gave up on
dmarc_moderation_action = Wrap Message on my lists and went to
dmarc_moderation_action = Munge From is complaints from iPhone users.
The iPhone Mail app, at least iOS 7, seems to do better with these, but
my lists are plain text so my experience may not apply to you.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From exim4debian at gmail.com  Thu Oct 30 22:35:22 2014
From: exim4debian at gmail.com (James Nightly)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 14:35:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Images on iPhone's not loading
In-Reply-To: <54529E66.5040502@msapiro.net>
References: <CAAQH7AdaUAW9tMwVESYf37saOjDpH4aBZ8QDpOz40bAm65tnNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <87sii62pi1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQH7AdCktgpUFbrUtYmTDNKBDBjtUHDXeBoARaPBFaNXTGnbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54529E66.5040502@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAAQH7AdFYc_fUtiz3GaMmfnO_5cZSpP4gSDB8WaxEEbVyhH9oA@mail.gmail.com>

I tried disabling dmarc completely and apparently there is still an
issue with HTML emails loading images on Apple iPhone Mail app.

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Fri Oct 31 00:59:23 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 10:59:23 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Images on iPhone's not loading
In-Reply-To: <CAAQH7AdFYc_fUtiz3GaMmfnO_5cZSpP4gSDB8WaxEEbVyhH9oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQH7AdaUAW9tMwVESYf37saOjDpH4aBZ8QDpOz40bAm65tnNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <87sii62pi1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQH7AdCktgpUFbrUtYmTDNKBDBjtUHDXeBoARaPBFaNXTGnbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54529E66.5040502@msapiro.net>
 <CAAQH7AdFYc_fUtiz3GaMmfnO_5cZSpP4gSDB8WaxEEbVyhH9oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A804D906-B14A-4520-8EFB-D9C3160A6B3D@nuw.org.au>

Are these images attachments of the emails, or are they just linked into the html from elsewhere? If the latter, have you looked at the html to see if there are errors in it?

Peter Shute

Sent from my iPad

> On 31 Oct 2014, at 8:35 am, James Nightly <exim4debian at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I tried disabling dmarc completely and apparently there is still an
> issue with HTML emails loading images on Apple iPhone Mail app.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%40nuw.org.au

From jimpop at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 15:32:04 2014
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 10:32:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership search changes?
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR2m7cDrREZmatEcy2gpBBrZ1DQqqXvrRJa+J12KpUEt6A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Did something change recently with Membership searches in mm-2.1.18-1?
 It seems that the search text no longer searches the complete
subscriber list, rather only the selected (i.e. A, B, C, D, etc)
grouping.  I searched the bug reports and didn't see any thing
related.

Thx,

-Jim P.

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 31 18:44:24 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 10:44:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership search changes?
In-Reply-To: <CAGfsgR2m7cDrREZmatEcy2gpBBrZ1DQqqXvrRJa+J12KpUEt6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGfsgR2m7cDrREZmatEcy2gpBBrZ1DQqqXvrRJa+J12KpUEt6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5453CA78.3010209@msapiro.net>

On 10/31/2014 07:32 AM, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> 
> Did something change recently with Membership searches in mm-2.1.18-1?
>  It seems that the search text no longer searches the complete
> subscriber list, rather only the selected (i.e. A, B, C, D, etc)
> grouping.  I searched the bug reports and didn't see any thing
> related.


Nothing changed as far as I can tell. The search still works globally
for me on my production server which actually runs the 2.2 branch +
additional local mods. My development boxes don't have enough list
members to test.

If the number of search results is <= admin_member_chunksize, the
results are all on one page with no 'alphabet' header. If the number of
search results is > admin_member_chunksize, the results will be broken
by first character with a header like the full list. Selecting a first
letter should continue to display only members that match the search.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jimpop at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 19:03:45 2014
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 14:03:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership search changes?
In-Reply-To: <5453CA78.3010209@msapiro.net>
References: <CAGfsgR2m7cDrREZmatEcy2gpBBrZ1DQqqXvrRJa+J12KpUEt6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5453CA78.3010209@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR0nRLVOr-hq-cRys5-O2r4-1pxQAD0GK98xdJFLDGNx3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> On 10/31/2014 07:32 AM, Jim Popovitch wrote:
>>
>> Did something change recently with Membership searches in mm-2.1.18-1?
>>  It seems that the search text no longer searches the complete
>> subscriber list, rather only the selected (i.e. A, B, C, D, etc)
>> grouping.  I searched the bug reports and didn't see any thing
>> related.
>
>
> Nothing changed as far as I can tell. The search still works globally
> for me on my production server which actually runs the 2.2 branch +
> additional local mods. My development boxes don't have enough list
> members to test.
>
> If the number of search results is <= admin_member_chunksize, the
> results are all on one page with no 'alphabet' header. If the number of
> search results is > admin_member_chunksize, the results will be broken
> by first character with a header like the full list. Selecting a first
> letter should continue to display only members that match the search.

Hi Mark,

Hmm.  If I set admin_member_chunksize > than subscribers then global
search works.  If admin_member_chunksize < subscribers, search only
works on the selected (or default) chunk.  I have a moderately
modified mailman system so it's probably something not working
correctly after recent patches.

Thanks anyways,

-Jim P.

From glibersat at sigill.org  Fri Oct 31 19:47:51 2014
From: glibersat at sigill.org (Guillaume Libersat)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 19:47:51 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM3/Delivery Problem
In-Reply-To: <54528DC2.6050706@msapiro.net>
References: <54524FC6.9090107@sigill.org> <54528DC2.6050706@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5453D957.1050600@sigill.org>

The problem is now fixed... I don't really know what happened but it
seems it was related to sqlite3 and database locking.

Thanks for helping, if I manage to find what really happened, I'll file
a bug report.

Cheers,

Guillaume

Le 30/10/2014 20:13, Mark Sapiro a ?crit :
> On 10/30/2014 07:48 AM, Guillaume Libersat wrote:
>> We're running a mailman 3.0.0b at ulists.org and so far it was working
>> quite well. Since a few days, email delivery seems to be broken, but
>> only for the posts, not bounces.
>> When someone subscribes, he gets the welcome message.
>> When someone posts, nothing is delivered. Same when posting from hyperkitty.
>
> I'll note a few things below, but this list is mostly still oriented
> towards Mailman 2.1. The MM 3 folks pay much more attention to the
> mailman-developers at python.org list and the #mailman irc channel on
> freenode.net.
>
>
>> Here's what happens when en email is sent to a list:
>>
>> On the MM3 side:
>>
>> Oct 30 15:34:36 2014 (1387)
>> <20141030143436.1389.15086 at mailman.ulists.org> smtp to test at ulists.org
>> for 1 recips, completed in 0.0919508934021 seconds
>> Oct 30 15:34:36 2014 (1387)
>> <20141030143436.1389.15086 at mailman.ulists.org> post to test at ulists.org
>> from test-request at ulists.org, 1177 bytes
>
> This says the post was sent to 1 recipient. If there's nothing in
> Mailman's smtp-failure log, it was accepted by the outgong MTA.
>
>
>> and on the smtp side:
>>
>> Oct 30 15:34:36 mailman postfix/qmgr[7675]: CEF7719628BC:
>> from=<glibersat at unisson.co>, size=718, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
>> Oct 30 15:34:36 mailman postfix/lmtp[2526]: CEF7719628BC:
>> to=<test at ulists.org>, relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:8024, delay=0.14,
>> delays=0.0
>> 6/0.04/0/0.04, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Ok)
>> Oct 30 15:34:36 mailman postfix/qmgr[7675]: CEF7719628BC: removed
>
> This is the incoming post being delivered to Mailman. We already know
> that succeeded.
>
>
>> Any idea of what I should check?
>
> What is in the outgoing MTA logs for the post from
> test-bounces at ulists.org to the list member?
>

-- 
http://sigill.org


From barry at list.org  Fri Oct 31 19:55:22 2014
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 14:55:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM3/Delivery Problem
In-Reply-To: <5453D957.1050600@sigill.org>
References: <54524FC6.9090107@sigill.org> <54528DC2.6050706@msapiro.net>
 <5453D957.1050600@sigill.org>
Message-ID: <20141031145522.091a88ed@limelight.wooz.org>

On Oct 31, 2014, at 07:47 PM, Guillaume Libersat wrote:

>The problem is now fixed... I don't really know what happened but it
>seems it was related to sqlite3 and database locking.
>
>Thanks for helping, if I manage to find what really happened, I'll file
>a bug report.

Very soon (perhaps this weekend) I will land the port to SQLAlchemy as our ORM
layer for MM3 in the trunk.  This is based on great work by Abhilash and
Aurelien.  There have been some reports of SQLite locking problems in MM3 and
it will be interesting to see whether the port from Storm to SA will fix that.

Cheers,
-Barry