From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr  1 00:05:51 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 15:05:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wrong path to Debian logo
In-Reply-To: <551B12C0.8060403@gmx.net>
References: <mailman.6.1427835966.12924.mailman-users@python.org>
 <551B12C0.8060403@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <551B1A3F.6070106@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2015 02:33 PM, Roland Miyamoto wrote:
> Hi Mark.
>
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> This is a Debian packaging issue. If it were an issue with Mailman
>> per
>
> I do not understand.
> I set
>
>   IMAGE_LOGOS         = '/mailman/images/'
>
> in mm_cfg.py
> Then the html returned by http://mydom.ain/mailman/listinfo
> reads
>
> <table WIDTH="100%" BORDER="0">
>   <tr>
>     <td><a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/index.html"><img
> src="/mailman/images/mailman.jpg" alt="Delivered by Mailman"
> border="0" /><br>version 2.1.15</a></td>
>     <td><a href="http://www.python.org/"><img
> src="/mailman/images/PythonPowered.png" alt="Python Powered"
> border="0" /></a></td>
>     <td><a href="http://www.gnu.org/"><img
> src="/mailman/images/gnu-head-tiny.jpg" alt="GNU's Not Unix"
> border="0" /></a></td>
>     <td><a href="http://www.debian.org/"><img
> src="/images/mailman/debianpowered.png" alt="Debian Powered"
> border="0" /></a></td>
>   </tr>
> </table>
>
> at the bottom. Note how the path is different for the last image
>
>   /images/mailman/debianpowered.png
>
> instead of /mailman/images/debianpowered.png as is for the other three
> images.
> I do not see how packaging can influence the html produced by
> Mailman's python code.

You don't think packagers ever change the upstream code? If only that
were true <sigh...>.

If you download
<http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/m/mailman/mailman_2.1.15-1.debian.tar.gz>
and extract the files, you will see the patches that Debian applies to
their Mailman package.

In particular, look at 01_defaults.debian.patch which patches
Defaults.py.in to change the default for IMAGE_LOGOS from '/icons/' to
'/doc/mailman/images/'

Then look at 25_site_logo_patch which patches Defaults.py.in to add

# The site logo/text presence, site text, site url and site logo
SITE_LINK = Yes
SITE_TEXT = 'Debian Powered'
SITE_URL = 'http://www.debian.org/'
SITE_LOGO = '/images/mailman/debianpowered.png'

All of which don't exist in non-Debian Mailman. This patch further
modifies code in htmlformat.py to generate the logos in the footer. This
code gets the 3 standard logos from the IMAGE_LOGOS directory and gets
the Debian Powered logo from the SITE_LOGO directory.

Thus, the 3 standard logos all come from the directory defined in
Defaults.py or overridden in mm_cfg.py by the IMAGE_LOGOS setting.

The 4th (Debian Powered) logo comes from the file defined in Defaults.py
or overridden in mm_cfg.py by the SITE_LOGO setting.

In fact, you can turn this off in a Debian installation by setting

SITE_LINK = No

in mm_cfg.py or adjust the text, image and URL with the other 3 settings.

This is a feature of the Debian package. All this *should* be covered in
Debian's documentation, but outside of reading Defaults.py, I don't see
anything off hand.

If you have an issue with how this is done or documented, you need to
take it up with Debian because this is a Debian feature added by Debian
and doesn't come from the GNU Mailman project.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


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From roland.miyamoto at gmx.net  Wed Apr  1 15:52:33 2015
From: roland.miyamoto at gmx.net (Roland Miyamoto)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 15:52:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wrong path to Debian logo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.50.1427882403.3337.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.50.1427882403.3337.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <551BF821.5010406@gmx.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Thank you, Mark,

For taking the time to teach me!
I think I really learned something here.
Also that setting

  SITE_LOGO = '/mailman/images/debianpowered.png'

in mm_cfg.py is the correct way to adjust this for my setup
(rather than my tampering with my apache2 config as I did).

  Thanks again for all your time and patience!

    Roland

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From odhiambo at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 22:06:24 2015
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 23:06:24 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.20 release.
In-Reply-To: <551B0C35.6070603@msapiro.net>
References: <551AE361.3020401@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WNpEEKggDKHYxGt_i_4NHTUPSSCRciavFPhRqksL91O0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <551B0358.8050607@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WP5wdjuOdaJGyF1GqyusF_rj80FQX=pQ7B7D_Q3R9zFtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <551B0C35.6070603@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WNG9jGrxRe116tOeb+Wr4=YOan1d+E49vXQP5nKoBtygg@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 April 2015 at 00:05, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 03/31/2015 01:49 PM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> >
> > Just wondering if I am missing something here ..
> >
> > (23:48:22 <~/Tools/Mailman/2.1.20>) 0 $ cd mailman-2.1.20
> > (23:48:27 <~/Tools/Mailman/2.1.20/mailman-2.1.20>) 0 $ patch <
> ../index_htdig.patch.2.1.20
>
>
> The proper command is 'patch -p1 < ../index_htdig.patch.2.1.20'
>
> See 'man patch' for more info.
>
>
> > Hmm...  Looks like a unified diff to me...
> > The text leading up to this was:
> > --------------------------
> > |diff -ruP 2.1.20/bin/blow_away_htdig 2.1.20p/bin/blow_away_htdig
> > |--- 2.1.20/bin/blow_away_htdig 1969-12-31 16:00:00.000000000 -0800
> > |+++ 2.1.20p/bin/blow_away_htdig        2015-03-31 11:24:52.000000000
> -0700
> > --------------------------
> > (Creating file blow_away_htdig...)
> > Patching file blow_away_htdig using Plan A...
> > Hunk #1 succeeded at 1.
>
>
> You probably want to 'rm blow_away_htdig' before trying again.
>
>
> > Hmm...  The next patch looks like a unified diff to me...
> > The text leading up to this was:
> > --------------------------
> > |diff -ruP 2.1.20/bin/check_perms 2.1.20p/bin/check_perms
> > |--- 2.1.20/bin/check_perms     2015-03-31 11:22:52.000000000 -0700
> > |+++ 2.1.20p/bin/check_perms    2015-03-31 11:24:52.000000000 -0700
> > --------------------------
> > File to patch: <================================================= Stops
> > here..
>
>
> because it couldn't find the file to patch because of the missing '-p1'
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>


Thank you.




-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
"I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler."

From roland.miyamoto at gmx.net  Wed Apr  1 23:51:53 2015
From: roland.miyamoto at gmx.net (Roland Miyamoto)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 23:51:53 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail transport postfix with dovecot and virtual
	domains
In-Reply-To: <mailman.50.1427882403.3337.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.50.1427882403.3337.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <551C6879.6070007@gmx.net>

Dear Mailman community,

Sorry to bother you again.
I am using postfix and dovecot with mysql style virtual users and
aliases and one virtual domain "mydom.ain" on my Debian server.
And it has worked fine so far.
My local domain is localdom.ain
I dumped my postfix configuration below.

I am now trying to set up Mailman lists with the same virtual domain
"mydom.ain" following http://list.org/mailman-install/node12.html and
http://list.org/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html
But since I have "virtual_transport=dovecot" in my /etc/postfix/main.cf,
as Mark suggested in msg62067.html, I followed


http://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20-%20Postfix%20integration%20with%20Mailman%20generated%20transport%20or%20other%20maps

(without much understanding).
The resulting files in /var/lib/mailman/data are dumped below.

When sending mail from me at gmx.net to mailman at mydom.ain
I get the following delivery failure notice:

5.1.1 <mailman at mydom.ain>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in
virtual mailbox table

So it seems that mapping for the mailman addresses does not take effect,
let alone mail transport to mailman.
Any hints are appreciated.

  Thanks in advance!

-----------------------------------------------
Dumps of postconf, local-users, virtual-mailman,
virtual_to_transport and transport-mailman
-----------------------------------------------

$ postconf -n
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases
append_dot_mydomain = no
biff = no
broken_sasl_auth_clients = yes
config_directory = /etc/postfix
dovecot_destination_recipient_limit = 1
html_directory = /usr/share/doc/postfix/html
inet_interfaces = all
local_recipient_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/local-users
mail_spool_directory = /var/mail/
mailbox_size_limit = 0
mydomain = $myhostname
mynetworks = 127.0.0.0/8 [::ffff:127.0.0.0]/104 [::1]/128
recipient_delimiter = +
smtp_tls_CAfile = /etc/ssl/certs/mydom.ain.ca.pem
smtp_tls_session_cache_database = btree:${data_directory}/smtp_scache
smtpd_recipient_restrictions =
permit_mynetworks,permit_sasl_authenticated,reject_unauth_destination
smtpd_sasl_auth_enable = yes
smtpd_sasl_path = private/auth
smtpd_sasl_type = dovecot
smtpd_tls_auth_only = yes
smtpd_tls_cert_file = /etc/ssl/certs/mydom.ain.crt
smtpd_tls_key_file = /etc/ssl/private/mydom.ain.key
smtpd_tls_security_level = may
smtpd_tls_session_cache_database = btree:${data_directory}/smtpd_scache
smtpd_use_tls = yes
transport_maps = hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/transport-mailman
virtual_alias_maps = mysql:/etc/postfix/virtual-aliases.cf
virtual_mailbox_base = /var/vmail/
virtual_mailbox_domains = mysql:/etc/postfix/virtual-domains.cf
virtual_mailbox_maps = mysql:/etc/postfix/virtual-users.cf
virtual_transport = dovecot

$ cat /etc/postfix/local-users
linuxuser OK
root OK

$ ll /var/lib/mailman/data
total 68
drwxrwsr-x 2 list list  4096 Apr  1 21:41 ./
drwxrwsr-x 8 root list  4096 Mar 30 22:40 ../
-rw-rw---- 1 list list  1132 Apr  1 21:41 aliases
-rw-rw---- 1 list list 12288 Apr  1 21:41 aliases.db
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root list    10 Mar 30 22:40 last_mailman_version
-rw-r--r-- 1 root list 14100 Jun 16  2012 sitelist.cfg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 list list  1124 Apr  1 21:41 transport-mailman
-rw-rw-r-- 1 list list 12288 Apr  1 21:41 transport-mailman.db
-rw-rw---- 1 list list  1209 Apr  1 21:41 virtual-mailman
-rwxr-x--- 1 list list   144 Apr  1 21:39 virtual_to_transport*

$ cat /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman
mailman-loop at mydom.ain	mailman-loop
mailman at mydom.ain              mailman
mailman-admin at mydom.ain        mailman-admin
mailman-bounces at mydom.ain      mailman-bounces
mailman-confirm at mydom.ain      mailman-confirm
mailman-join at mydom.ain         mailman-join
mailman-leave at mydom.ain        mailman-leave
mailman-owner at mydom.ain        mailman-owner
mailman-request at mydom.ain      mailman-request
mailman-subscribe at mydom.ain    mailman-subscribe
mailman-unsubscribe at mydom.ain  mailman-unsubscribe

$ cat /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual_to_transport
sed -r -e 's/(^[^#]\S+\s+).+$/\1local:/' $1 >
/var/lib/mailman/data/transport-mailman
/usr/sbin/postmap /var/lib/mailman/data/transport-mailman

$ cat /var/lib/mailman/data/transport-mailman
mailman-loop at mydom.ain	local:
mailman at mydom.ain              local:
mailman-admin at mydom.ain        local:
mailman-bounces at mydom.ain      local:
mailman-confirm at mydom.ain      local:
mailman-join at mydom.ain         local:
mailman-leave at mydom.ain        local:
mailman-owner at mydom.ain        local:
mailman-request at mydom.ain      local:
mailman-subscribe at mydom.ain    local:
mailman-unsubscribe at mydom.ain  local:

From cwieland at uci.edu  Thu Apr  2 00:47:02 2015
From: cwieland at uci.edu (Con Wieland)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 15:47:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman not sending notifications
Message-ID: <F9F9866F-6321-48D6-B3D6-DB2779E99575@uci.edu>

I have a mailman site that has stopped sending (it previously worked) email for moderated posts. I see in the logs the message is received, it shows up in the pending requests but no mail is sent to the list owner/moderator. I don?t see anything in the log after it?s received.

Any help on what it might be or where to start looking would be greatly appreciated

Con Wieland
Office of Information Technology
University of California at Irvine

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  2 01:18:03 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 16:18:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman not sending notifications
In-Reply-To: <F9F9866F-6321-48D6-B3D6-DB2779E99575@uci.edu>
References: <F9F9866F-6321-48D6-B3D6-DB2779E99575@uci.edu>
Message-ID: <551C7CAB.9050603@msapiro.net>

On 04/01/2015 03:47 PM, Con Wieland wrote:
> I have a mailman site that has stopped sending (it previously worked) email for moderated posts. I see in the logs the message is received, it shows up in the pending requests but no mail is sent to the list owner/moderator. I don?t see anything in the log after it?s received.
> 
> Any help on what it might be or where to start looking would be greatly appreciated


It depends. Do the list owner's not get any notice or do they get the
daily summary but not the immediate notice.

If they just don't get the immediate notice, check the list(s)' General
Options -> admin_immed_notify setting.

If they don't get any notices, ensure that mail to
LISTNAME-owner at list.domain is delivered.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  2 02:15:04 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 17:15:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail transport postfix with dovecot and virtual
 domains
In-Reply-To: <551C6879.6070007@gmx.net>
References: <mailman.50.1427882403.3337.mailman-users@python.org>
 <551C6879.6070007@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <551C8A08.8070004@msapiro.net>

On 04/01/2015 02:51 PM, Roland Miyamoto wrote:
> Dear Mailman community,
> 
> Sorry to bother you again.
> I am using postfix and dovecot with mysql style virtual users and
> aliases and one virtual domain "mydom.ain" on my Debian server.
> And it has worked fine so far.
> My local domain is localdom.ain
> I dumped my postfix configuration below.
> 
> I am now trying to set up Mailman lists with the same virtual domain
> "mydom.ain" following http://list.org/mailman-install/node12.html and
> http://list.org/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html
> But since I have "virtual_transport=dovecot" in my /etc/postfix/main.cf,
> as Mark suggested in msg62067.html, I followed


Presumably, that reference is to
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg62067.html>.
If you are going to refer to an archived message, please give a complete
URL.


> http://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20-%20Postfix%20integration%20with%20Mailman%20generated%20transport%20or%20other%20maps
> 
> (without much understanding).
> The resulting files in /var/lib/mailman/data are dumped below.


And all look OK.


> When sending mail from me at gmx.net to mailman at mydom.ain
> I get the following delivery failure notice:
> 
> 5.1.1 <mailman at mydom.ain>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in
> virtual mailbox table
> 
> So it seems that mapping for the mailman addresses does not take effect,
> let alone mail transport to mailman.


The transport to Mailman still requires aliases. See below. As to why
(if) the transport_maps are not effective, I'd like to see the actual
Postfix log messages, not just the DSN.


> -----------------------------------------------
> Dumps of postconf, local-users, virtual-mailman,
> virtual_to_transport and transport-mailman
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> $ postconf -n
> alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
> alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases

Your transport maps will just map the list addresses to the local
transport. You still need aliases to get to Mailman. The above line
needs to include hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases, i.e.

alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases

I have updated the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/10715238> to hopefully
make this more clear.


> append_dot_mydomain = no
> biff = no
> broken_sasl_auth_clients = yes
> config_directory = /etc/postfix
> dovecot_destination_recipient_limit = 1
> html_directory = /usr/share/doc/postfix/html
> inet_interfaces = all
> local_recipient_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/local-users
> mail_spool_directory = /var/mail/
> mailbox_size_limit = 0
> mydomain = $myhostname
> mynetworks = 127.0.0.0/8 [::ffff:127.0.0.0]/104 [::1]/128
> recipient_delimiter = +
> smtp_tls_CAfile = /etc/ssl/certs/mydom.ain.ca.pem
> smtp_tls_session_cache_database = btree:${data_directory}/smtp_scache
> smtpd_recipient_restrictions =
> permit_mynetworks,permit_sasl_authenticated,reject_unauth_destination
> smtpd_sasl_auth_enable = yes
> smtpd_sasl_path = private/auth
> smtpd_sasl_type = dovecot
> smtpd_tls_auth_only = yes
> smtpd_tls_cert_file = /etc/ssl/certs/mydom.ain.crt
> smtpd_tls_key_file = /etc/ssl/private/mydom.ain.key
> smtpd_tls_security_level = may
> smtpd_tls_session_cache_database = btree:${data_directory}/smtpd_scache
> smtpd_use_tls = yes
> transport_maps = hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/transport-mailman
> virtual_alias_maps = mysql:/etc/postfix/virtual-aliases.cf
> virtual_mailbox_base = /var/vmail/
> virtual_mailbox_domains = mysql:/etc/postfix/virtual-domains.cf


And presumably mydom.ain is one of the virtual_mailbox_domains. I don't
know off hand whether or not the specific address appearing in
transport_maps takes precedence over the domain in
virtual_mailbox_domains. I think it should, but ...

Add the aliases to alias_maps and if you still have the problem, post
the Postfix log messages.

> virtual_mailbox_maps = mysql:/etc/postfix/virtual-users.cf
> virtual_transport = dovecot
> 
> $ cat /etc/postfix/local-users
> $ ll /var/lib/mailman/data
> $ cat /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman
> $ cat /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual_to_transport
> $ cat /var/lib/mailman/data/transport-mailman

These all look OK.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  2 02:35:35 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 17:35:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman not sending notifications
In-Reply-To: <431D4010-0C16-4E9B-8AB7-73D60E1152B8@uci.edu>
References: <F9F9866F-6321-48D6-B3D6-DB2779E99575@uci.edu>
 <551C7CAB.9050603@msapiro.net> <431D4010-0C16-4E9B-8AB7-73D60E1152B8@uci.edu>
Message-ID: <551C8ED7.4060804@msapiro.net>

Please keep threads on the list unless there is some privacy concern
involved.

On 04/01/2015 04:41 PM, Con Wieland wrote:
> 
> delivery to my site list which is set to immediate delivery (also not receiving notifications) is receiving mail sent directly to mailman-owner at maillists.uci.edu


Where there any changes to Mailman since the last time it worked?

Is the list's respond_to_post_requests = Yes, and if so is the user
notified when the message is held?

Look at the MTA logs. When you see a post delivered to Mailman (which
has been held). You should see the message delivered to Mailman,
possibly the notice from Mailman (LISTNAME-bounces, maybe VERPed) to the
user. A message from Mailman (LISTNAME-bounces, maybe VERPed) to
LISTNAME-owner and delivery of that message back to Mailman followed by
a message from mailman-bounces to the actual owner and delivery of that
message. All of these should occur within seconds.

What's missing from the above scenario?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From roland.miyamoto at gmx.net  Thu Apr  2 10:24:00 2015
From: roland.miyamoto at gmx.net (Roland Miyamoto)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 10:24:00 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail transport postfix with dovecot and virtual
 domains
In-Reply-To: <551C8A08.8070004@msapiro.net>
References: <mailman.50.1427882403.3337.mailman-users@python.org>
 <551C6879.6070007@gmx.net> <551C8A08.8070004@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <551CFCA0.6020405@gmx.net>

Thanks, Mark,

You are amazing!

On 02/04/15 02:15, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases

Oh dummy me!
And I always wondered how the virtual mail can get forwarded from local
to mailman. You have explained everything in one line.
However, with

  POSTFIX_MAP_CMD = '/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual_to_transport'

it still does not work. Therefore I am going back to old
  /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman.db
generated automatically by genaliases.
And everything is working fine now.
So it seems that


http://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20-%20Postfix%20integration%20with%20Mailman%20generated%20transport%20or%20other%20maps

is not necessary for "virtual_transport=dovecot". (?)

> Presumably, that reference is to
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg62067.html>.
> If you are going to refer to an archived message, please give a complete
> URL.

I will keep that in mind for future requests.
Wanted to be short but now realize that complete URLs are easier to find
and click for others.

> I have updated the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/10715238>
> to hopefully make this more clear.

Maybe a hint in

  http://list.org/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html

that "alias_maps = ..., hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases"
is still needed for virtual domains would be a helper for dummies like me.
I would also offer to send my now working setup (including mm_cfg.py) to
this list for others that stumble like me.

  Thanks again so much Mark!

    Roland

From brads at nyctelecomm.com  Thu Apr  2 08:19:02 2015
From: brads at nyctelecomm.com (brads)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 02:19:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] N00b with a CGI error
Message-ID: <045401d06d0c$ec881200$c5983600$@nyctelecomm.com>

I am on FreeBSD and I installed mailman from ports following this guide ->  http://www.purplehat.org/?page_id=18 

On first attempt to connect to the GUI, I get ->

 

??E????????UH??AVSH?? H???0 H?= H?5 ?????W?)E?H?? H?E?H?U???@?

  _____  

H???]?????L?5? ??????8?????H???
@1?L???????????H?? [A^]??????????UH??SPH?? H?????`t????H?
  _____  

H???H???u?H??[]???H???????H???/usr/local/mailman/scripts//usr/local/mailman/usr/local/bin/python2.7%s The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is being stored in your syslog:%s--with-cgi-gidwebCGI--with-mail-gidmailFailure to find group name for GID %d. Mailman expected the %s wrapper to be executed as group "%s", but the system's %s server executed the wrapper as GID %d for which the name could not be found. Try adding GID %d to your system as "%s", or tweak your %s server to run the wrapper as group "%s".Group mismatch error. Mailman expected the %s wrapper script to be executed as group "%s", but the system's %s server executed the %s script as group "%s". Try tweaking the %s server to run the script as group "%s", or re-run configure, providing the command line option `%s=%s'.-SPYTHONHOME=PATH= 

?@?@?@PYTHONPATH=Content-type: text/html 

Mailman CGI error!!!

Mailman cgi-wrapper (listinfo)listinfowwwdriver

  _____  

;8????T\???|,??????????????????
zRx
?$
????vA
?[1]C J????
  _____  

?
  _____  


D????SA
?[1]C B?
  _____  


d????~A
?[1]C L??
  _____  

?
  _____  

$??????A
?[1]C M????
  _____  

?
  _____  

$?????K[1]A
?[1]C M????
  _____  

?
  _____  


??????A
?[1]C G?
  _____  

?
  _____  

????????????????
? @ H@
  _____  

H[1]@???o
  _____  

@@H
  _____  

@ ?

  _____  

?`[1]@[1]?@p@ ???oP@???o???o
@?`? @[1] @ @" @2 @B @R @b @r @? @? @? @? @? @? @? @? @[1]
@
@"
@2
@B
@R
@b
@?@?``@|@?@`@@?@$FreeBSD: releng/10.1/lib/csu/amd64/crt1.c 245133 2013-01-07 17:58:27Z kib $$FreeBSD: releng/10.1/lib/csu/common/crtbrand.c 274400 2014-11-11 19:51:27Z gjb $$FreeBSD: releng/10.1/lib/csu/common/ignore_init.c 245133 2013-01-07 17:58:27Z kib $FreeBSD clang version 3.4.1 (tags/RELEASE_34/dot1-final 208032) 20140512$FreeBSD: releng/10.1/lib/csu/amd64/crti.S 217105 2011-01-07 16:07:51Z kib $$FreeBSD: releng/10.1/lib/csu/amd64/crtn.S 217105 2011-01-07 16:07:51Z kib $.shstrtab.interp.note.tag.gnu.hash.dynsym.dynstr.gnu.version.gnu.version_r.rela.dyn.rela.plt.init.text.fini.rodata.eh_frame_hdr.eh_frame.ctors.dtors.jcr.dynamic.got.plt.data.bss.comment
[1][1]@[1][1][1]@[1]0
  _____  

![1]H[1]@H[1]?
  _____  

???o[1]
  _____  

@
  _____  

4'
[1]H
  _____  

@H
  _____  

?[1]/
  _____  

[1]@?7???o[1]
@
<[1][1]D???o[1]P at P S
  _____  

[1]p at p]
  _____  

[1]?@?@[1]
g? @? 
  _____  

b? @?

 

 

 

I tried adding mailman and www to wheel group, this had no effect.

 

Brad


From jbn at forestfield.org  Thu Apr  2 19:45:49 2015
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 12:45:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org>

Richard Damon <Richard at Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> Another reason that I have been told by some people that they want
> people to top post is that their client will show in the message list a
> summary of the first line of the message, and they want that to be the
> new content to see if it is worth reading,

Tanstaafl replied:
> And that is actually one of the few reasonable reasons that I've ever
> seen supporting the argument...

I somewhat concur; I understand the desire for the feature, and I think 
this is the first time I've seen a reasonable reason for it as well. I 
think it's a nice feature to have, generally. But I don't think this 
justifies top-posting because I'd prefer clients to collapse quoted 
material, attribution, and then show the first line (or few lines) of 
the message. I still prefer the logical point-counterpoint of an edited 
response I can read from the top down.

I also think we should stop offering mailing list digests, particularly 
because I don't see a need for them now that bandwidth to most Internet 
users is plentiful (plentiful enough to see widespread use of HTML 
email, for instance) and so many users pick gratis email hosting that 
imposes no quota on them (to maximize effectiveness of spying on 
users?). I'd be willing to reconsider my opinion on digests if there 
were some compelling reason(s) to continue digests. So far all I see in 
digests are the bad points: digests break threading, replies to digests 
contain far more quoted material than original material, and top posting 
makes digests even harder for me to figure out what is being replied to.

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  2 20:08:43 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 11:08:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] N00b with a CGI error
In-Reply-To: <045401d06d0c$ec881200$c5983600$@nyctelecomm.com>
References: <045401d06d0c$ec881200$c5983600$@nyctelecomm.com>
Message-ID: <551D85AB.5050105@msapiro.net>

On 04/01/2015 11:19 PM, brads wrote:
> I am on FreeBSD and I installed mailman from ports following this guide ->  http://www.purplehat.org/?page_id=18 
> 
> On first attempt to connect to the GUI, I get ->
> 
>  
> 
> ??E????????UH??AVSH?? H???0 H?= H?5 ?????W?)E?H?? H?E?H?U???@?


Much of your post is garbled like this.


> H???H???u?H??[]???H???????H???/usr/local/mailman/scripts//usr/local/mailman/usr/local/bin/python2.7%s The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is being stored in your syslog:%s--with-cgi-gidwebCGI--with-mail-gidmailFailure to find group name for GID %d. Mailman expected the %s wrapper to be executed as group "%s", but the system's %s server executed the wrapper as GID %d for which the name could not be found. Try adding GID %d to your system as "%s", or tweak your %s server to run the wrapper as group "%s".Group mismatch error. Mailman expected the %s wrapper script to be executed as group "%s", but the system's %s server executed the %s script as group "%s". Try tweaking the %s server to run the script as group "%s", or re-run configure, providing the command line option `%s=%s'.-SPYTHONHOME=PATH= 
> 
> ?@?@?@PYTHONPATH=Content-type: text/html 


The %s replacements above should be replaced with actual values. That
would help.


> I tried adding mailman and www to wheel group, this had no effect.


That doesn't ever help.

First see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030645>. That may help you
understand what's going on.

If that doesn't help, consider that you are dealing with a package about
which I know nothing and see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>.

Also note that the guide you followed uses postfix_to_mailman.py. See
<http://wiki.list.org/x/15564817> and
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-September/074017.html>.
Your immediate problem is not with postfix_to_mailman.py, but the fact
that the guide recommends it makes the whole thing suspect in my mind.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Thu Apr  2 21:06:06 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:06:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <551D931E.30106@libertytrek.org>

On 4/2/2015 1:45 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens <jbn at forestfield.org> wrote:
> I also think we should stop offering mailing list digests, particularly 
> because I don't see a need for them now that bandwidth to most Internet 
> users is plentiful (plentiful enough to see widespread use of HTML 
> email, for instance) and so many users pick gratis email hosting that 
> imposes no quota on them (to maximize effectiveness of spying on 
> users?). I'd be willing to reconsider my opinion on digests if there 
> were some compelling reason(s) to continue digests. So far all I see in 
> digests are the bad points: digests break threading, replies to digests 
> contain far more quoted material than original material, and top posting 
> makes digests even harder for me to figure out what is being replied to.

Well, liomited bandwidth was never a reason (in my mind) for wanting
digest versions of some email lists...

The main reason I may choose a digest version of a list is if it is
high-volume, and/or I am more of a lurker than participant. In such a
case digests makes the Inbox (or folder if they are filtered to one)
less cluttered.

From andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au  Thu Apr  2 21:13:59 2015
From: andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au (Andrew Stuart)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 06:13:59 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
	top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <551D931E.30106@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D931E.30106@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <E9F0057C-29AD-4E75-9B12-3BF15BA134C5@supercoders.com.au>

I?d like it if digests could be either the full text of the emails or just a list of subject lines.

I don?t want to scroll through the full text of every message in the digest.


On 3 Apr 2015, at 6:06 am, Tanstaafl <tanstaafl at libertytrek.org> wrote:

On 4/2/2015 1:45 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens <jbn at forestfield.org> wrote:
> I also think we should stop offering mailing list digests, particularly 
> because I don't see a need for them now that bandwidth to most Internet 
> users is plentiful (plentiful enough to see widespread use of HTML 
> email, for instance) and so many users pick gratis email hosting that 
> imposes no quota on them (to maximize effectiveness of spying on 
> users?). I'd be willing to reconsider my opinion on digests if there 
> were some compelling reason(s) to continue digests. So far all I see in 
> digests are the bad points: digests break threading, replies to digests 
> contain far more quoted material than original material, and top posting 
> makes digests even harder for me to figure out what is being replied to.

Well, liomited bandwidth was never a reason (in my mind) for wanting
digest versions of some email lists...

The main reason I may choose a digest version of a list is if it is
high-volume, and/or I am more of a lurker than participant. In such a
case digests makes the Inbox (or folder if they are filtered to one)
less cluttered.
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/andrew.stuart%40supercoders.com.au


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  2 21:37:05 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 12:37:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <E9F0057C-29AD-4E75-9B12-3BF15BA134C5@supercoders.com.au>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D931E.30106@libertytrek.org>
 <E9F0057C-29AD-4E75-9B12-3BF15BA134C5@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <551D9A61.8070207@msapiro.net>

On 04/02/2015 12:13 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:
> I?d like it if digests could be either the full text of the emails or just a list of subject lines.


Mailman digests have a table of contents with just Subject: and From: name.

On some lists, where I'm only interested in very few topics, I subscribe
to the MIME format digest. I read the TOC and often stop there and
delete the digest. Some times I will go on and read a message or two of
interest, and maybe open one individually and reply to it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au  Thu Apr  2 21:48:12 2015
From: andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au (Andrew Stuart)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 06:48:12 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look
	like?
Message-ID: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>


What?s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface?

If you can provide links to show where your ideas are done well that would help to illustrate your thoughts.

Any killer features that you?d like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface?

as


From mike at writestarr.com  Thu Apr  2 20:18:22 2015
From: mike at writestarr.com (Mike Starr)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 13:18:22 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>

A couple points on top-posting...

I'm a top-poster and not ashamed of it. If I'm following a message 
thread, I remember the discussion and don't want to have to scroll 
through a weeks worth of responses just to get to the new content.

Some email clients strip all but the first message below the signature 
of the new message being created as a reply. That pretty much demolishes 
the rest of the message thread. In the case of responding to a full 
message thread, that means only the original post would be included with 
the reply.

In this response (using Thunderbird), I highlighted the text I wanted to 
respond to before clicking *Reply List* and Thunderbird only included 
the highlighted text below this response. That puts the pertinent 
content right below my reply.

Best Regards,

Mike
-- 
Mike Starr, Writer
Technical Writer   -    Online Help Developer   -   WordPress Websites
Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates
(262) 694-1028   -  mike at writestarr.com   -  http://www.writestarr.com
President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/

On 4/2/2015 12:45 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens wrote:
> I somewhat concur; I understand the desire for the feature, and I 
> think this is the first time I've seen a reasonable reason for it as 
> well. I think it's a nice feature to have, generally. But I don't 
> think this justifies top-posting because I'd prefer clients to 
> collapse quoted material, attribution, and then show the first line 
> (or few lines) of the message. I still prefer the logical 
> point-counterpoint of an edited response I can read from the top down. 

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Thu Apr  2 21:53:37 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:53:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <E9F0057C-29AD-4E75-9B12-3BF15BA134C5@supercoders.com.au>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D931E.30106@libertytrek.org>
 <E9F0057C-29AD-4E75-9B12-3BF15BA134C5@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <551D9E41.1050504@libertytrek.org>

Please don't send direct to me, I'm on the list.

On 4/2/2015 3:13 PM, Andrew Stuart <andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au> wrote:
> I?d like it if digests could be either the full text of the emails or
> just a list of subject lines.

? Whats wrong with both? Every digest I've ever subscribed to has the
list of email subjects at the top, then the content afterwards...

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Thu Apr  2 21:57:15 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:57:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
Message-ID: <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>

On 4/2/2015 2:18 PM, Mike Starr <mike at writestarr.com> wrote:
> I'm a top-poster and not ashamed of it. If I'm following a message 
> thread, I remember the discussion and don't want to have to scroll 
> through a weeks worth of responses just to get to the new content.

This would only happen if you blindly quoted the entire message.

Not ONE 'bottom poster' (inline is more correct term) would EVER suggest
doing that, but I do know more than one top-poster who refuses to
acknowledge this, and submits the same tired INVALID argument as a
reason to support their laziness.

> In this response (using Thunderbird), I highlighted the text I wanted to 
> respond to before clicking *Reply List* and Thunderbird only included 
> the highlighted text

Been doing this for many, many years (ever since TB enabled the feature).

> below this response. That puts the pertinent content right below my reply.

When it belongs above it...

But whatever, I stopped caring much a long, long time ago when I
realized top-posters will never get it simply because they don't want to.

From mike at writestarr.com  Thu Apr  2 22:19:56 2015
From: mike at writestarr.com (Mike Starr)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:19:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <551DA46C.2080208@writestarr.com>

That's what it seemed to me that J.B. was expressing... that the entire 
message thread would be repeated in each response.

However, "blindly quoting the entire message" is the default with many 
email tools (other than the few that scrub everything but the text 
immediately below the respondee's signature). Click *Reply* and that's 
what you get... and that would be the same whether you top-post or 
bottom-post. I try to be very conscious of it and trim whatever's not 
necessary but I sometimes forget as well.

I'll leave the discussion now... I've seen these top-post/bottom-post 
flame wars in the past. It's just like the toilet paper top/bottom 
argument. There is no *right way* to do it. It's all a matter of 
preference with good arguments on both sides.

Best Regards,

Mike
-- 
Mike Starr, Writer
Technical Writer   -    Online Help Developer   -   WordPress Websites
Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates
(262) 694-1028   -  mike at writestarr.com   -  http://www.writestarr.com
President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/

On 4/2/2015 2:57 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> This would only happen if you blindly quoted the entire message.
>
> Not ONE 'bottom poster' (inline is more correct term) would EVER suggest
> doing that, but I do know more than one top-poster who refuses to
> acknowledge this, and submits the same tired INVALID argument as a
> reason to support their laziness.

From brads at nyctelecomm.com  Thu Apr  2 23:08:01 2015
From: brads at nyctelecomm.com (brads)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 17:08:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] N00b with a CGI error
In-Reply-To: <551D85AB.5050105@msapiro.net>
References: <045401d06d0c$ec881200$c5983600$@nyctelecomm.com>
 <551D85AB.5050105@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <049101d06d89$1c95f080$55c1d180$@nyctelecomm.com>

The message was garbled because the output was garbled
I was able to get past that issue by loading the cgi modules in the php.ini. A slight oversight.

But I have encountered a new issue that is baffling me.
I can get to the 'create list page'  (lacking authorization granted)  http://i.imgur.com/ySpziHH.png 
But I cannot get to the admin overview page  http://i.imgur.com/beC58Wv.png 

Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong now?



-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+brads=nyctelecomm.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 2:09 PM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] N00b with a CGI error

On 04/01/2015 11:19 PM, brads wrote:
> I am on FreeBSD and I installed mailman from ports following this guide ->  http://www.purplehat.org/?page_id=18 
> 
> On first attempt to connect to the GUI, I get ->
> 
>  
> 
> ??E????????UH??AVSH?? H???0 H?= H?5 ?????W?)E?H?? H?E?H?U???@?


Much of your post is garbled like this.


> H???H???u?H??[]???H???????H???/usr/local/mailman/scripts//usr/local/mailman/usr/local/bin/python2.7%s The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is being stored in your syslog:%s--with-cgi-gidwebCGI--with-mail-gidmailFailure to find group name for GID %d. Mailman expected the %s wrapper to be executed as group "%s", but the system's %s server executed the wrapper as GID %d for which the name could not be found. Try adding GID %d to your system as "%s", or tweak your %s server to run the wrapper as group "%s".Group mismatch error. Mailman expected the %s wrapper script to be executed as group "%s", but the system's %s server executed the %s script as group "%s". Try tweaking the %s server to run the script as group "%s", or re-run configure, providing the command line option `%s=%s'.-SPYTHONHOME=PATH= 
> 
> ?@?@?@PYTHONPATH=Content-type: text/html 


The %s replacements above should be replaced with actual values. That
would help.


> I tried adding mailman and www to wheel group, this had no effect.


That doesn't ever help.

First see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030645>. That may help you
understand what's going on.

If that doesn't help, consider that you are dealing with a package about
which I know nothing and see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>.

Also note that the guide you followed uses postfix_to_mailman.py. See
<http://wiki.list.org/x/15564817> and
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-September/074017.html>.
Your immediate problem is not with postfix_to_mailman.py, but the fact
that the guide recommends it makes the whole thing suspect in my mind.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brads%40nyctelecomm.com


From lac at openend.se  Thu Apr  2 23:43:01 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 23:43:01 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
	top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: Message from Mike Starr <mike@writestarr.com>
 of "Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:19:56 -0500." <551DA46C.2080208@writestarr.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org><551DA46C.2080208@writestarr.com>
Message-ID: <201504022143.t32Lh14L002379@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:19:56 -0500, Mike Starr writes:
>I'll leave the discussion now... I've seen these top-post/bottom-post 
>flame wars in the past. It's just like the toilet paper top/bottom 
>argument. There is no *right way* to do it. It's all a matter of 
>preference with good arguments on both sides.

I miss my cat.  In any house where she lived, there was _one right way
to do it_.  There was the right way, and the way that had her making
a huge pile of tp on the bathroom floor.  (Locking her out was not
a desirable option.  She also learned to eliminate her own waste
in the toilet.)

Laura

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  2 23:48:48 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 14:48:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] N00b with a CGI error
In-Reply-To: <049101d06d89$1c95f080$55c1d180$@nyctelecomm.com>
References: <045401d06d0c$ec881200$c5983600$@nyctelecomm.com>
 <551D85AB.5050105@msapiro.net>
 <049101d06d89$1c95f080$55c1d180$@nyctelecomm.com>
Message-ID: <551DB940.4070204@msapiro.net>

On 04/02/2015 02:08 PM, brads wrote:
> The message was garbled because the output was garbled

So something was REALLY broken.


> I was able to get past that issue by loading the cgi modules in the php.ini. A slight oversight.
> 
> But I have encountered a new issue that is baffling me.
> I can get to the 'create list page'  (lacking authorization granted)  http://i.imgur.com/ySpziHH.png 

By what URL?


> But I cannot get to the admin overview page  http://i.imgur.com/beC58Wv.png 


And what URL here? The one I see in the screen shot doesn't work for me.


> Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong now?


I have no idea because the Mailman I know has no involvement with php so
I have no clue as to what you are doing or what your web server
configuration is.

<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node10.html> may help.

Have you set up your web server per
<http://www.purplehat.org/?page_id=18>? At first glance, it looks OK
except for representing '"' as '&#34' without a trailing ';' and the
fact that DocumentRoot paths aren't usually quoted and of course the
fact that things like 'domain.tld' need to be edited.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From benfell at parts-unknown.org  Fri Apr  3 05:09:12 2015
From: benfell at parts-unknown.org (David Benfell)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 20:09:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <20150402200912.Horde.Tu86qY3Sr7bfZkuR4bP_vw2@mail.parts-unknown.org>

Quoting Tanstaafl <tanstaafl at libertytrek.org>:
>
> But whatever, I stopped caring much a long, long time ago when I
> realized top-posters will never get it simply because they don't want to.

Yes, it's a hopeless battle.

The consensus on most technical lists I've seen is very strongly in  
favor of bottom posting, with top-posters subject to flaming. But  
outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with  
the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot  
hope to prevail.
-- 
David Benfell <benfell at parts-unknown.org>
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From benfell at parts-unknown.org  Fri Apr  3 05:04:21 2015
From: benfell at parts-unknown.org (David Benfell)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 20:04:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <551D931E.30106@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D931E.30106@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <20150402200421.Horde.f3lmfY4iRcAbLVCl4okOXg1@mail.parts-unknown.org>

Quoting Tanstaafl <tanstaafl at libertytrek.org>:

> On 4/2/2015 1:45 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens <jbn at forestfield.org> wrote:
>> I also think we should stop offering mailing list digests, particularly
>> because I don't see a need for them now that bandwidth to most Internet
>> users is plentiful (plentiful enough to see widespread use of HTML
>> email, for instance) and so many users pick gratis email hosting that
>> imposes no quota on them (to maximize effectiveness of spying on
>> users?). I'd be willing to reconsider my opinion on digests if there
>> were some compelling reason(s) to continue digests. So far all I see in
>> digests are the bad points: digests break threading, replies to digests
>> contain far more quoted material than original material, and top posting
>> makes digests even harder for me to figure out what is being replied to.
>
> Well, liomited bandwidth was never a reason (in my mind) for wanting
> digest versions of some email lists...
>
> The main reason I may choose a digest version of a list is if it is
> high-volume, and/or I am more of a lurker than participant. In such a
> case digests makes the Inbox (or folder if they are filtered to one)
> less cluttered.

Agreed. I see some users choosing digest options even of relatively  
low volume lists that I host. I myself use the digest option for  
certain low priority lists that I want to get to, but not right away.
-- 
David Benfell <benfell at parts-unknown.org>
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From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Fri Apr  3 10:33:59 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 10:33:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <551D931E.30106@libertytrek.org>
References: <551D931E.30106@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1504031032050.32383@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

On Thu, 2 Apr 2015, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 4/2/2015 1:45 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens <jbn at forestfield.org> wrote:

>> I also think we should stop offering mailing list digests

Nobody forbids you as list administrator to stop offering digests on YOUR 
lists. But why would you like to forbid digests to administrators and 
users who appreciate it ?

> The main reason I may choose a digest version of a list is if it is
> high-volume, and/or I am more of a lurker than participant. In such a
> case digests makes the Inbox (or folder if they are filtered to one)
> less cluttered.

I could not have said it better.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From steve at pearwood.info  Fri Apr  3 13:55:44 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 22:55:44 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
	top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <20150402200912.Horde.Tu86qY3Sr7bfZkuR4bP_vw2@mail.parts-unknown.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
 <20150402200912.Horde.Tu86qY3Sr7bfZkuR4bP_vw2@mail.parts-unknown.org>
Message-ID: <20150403115544.GD25453@ando.pearwood.info>

On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote:

> The consensus on most technical lists I've seen is very strongly in  
> favor of bottom posting, 

Surely not. Bottom-posting is, if anything, worse than top-posting. With 
top-posting at least you get to see the reply[1] at the top of 
the post, and can delete it and move on with your life. With bottom- 
posting you have to scroll past seven pages of quoted text before you 
get to see their reply.


> with top-posters subject to flaming. But  
> outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with  
> the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot  
> hope to prevail.

Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here?





[1] Often one line. On technical lists, that's often "Works for me." On 
non-technical lists, "Me too!".

-- 
Steve

From benfell at parts-unknown.org  Fri Apr  3 14:47:09 2015
From: benfell at parts-unknown.org (David Benfell)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 05:47:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <20150403115544.GD25453@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
 <20150402200912.Horde.Tu86qY3Sr7bfZkuR4bP_vw2@mail.parts-unknown.org>
 <20150403115544.GD25453@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <20150403054709.Horde.ud_wFjppHsal9Z9jXb9n0Q2@mail.parts-unknown.org>

Quoting Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info>:
>
>> with top-posters subject to flaming. But
>> outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with
>> the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot
>> hope to prevail.
>
> Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here?

I had not seen this term before. But it makes sense to me and is  
indeed what I meant.

-- 
David Benfell <benfell at parts-unknown.org>
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From danil at smirnov.la  Fri Apr  3 14:48:28 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 15:48:28 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] web UI somehow has appeared broken
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbooZGtVZprLBcLO9-v5nDsNEpDwuJJL+B5j2+MbnhXb8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!

I've just created new mailing list and successfully configured it through
web UI.

Now I try to change some subscribers' params on page Membership Management.

But it does not work! (No changes appear recorded after form submitting.)

I've noticed that in source of this page the form action address looks like
this:

<FORM action="http://lists.domain.net/mailman/admin/list1/members?letter=2"
method="POST" enctype="multipart/form-data">

But on same pages of lists I created before I have another code:

<FORM action="../../../admin/list2/members" method="POST"
enctype="multipart/form-data">

Taking into consideration the fact that I use https for web UI, this looks
incorrect.

Please help me to investigate this error.

TIA,
Danil

From steve at pearwood.info  Fri Apr  3 14:45:59 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 23:45:59 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <20150403124551.GE25453@ando.pearwood.info>

On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 06:48:12AM +1100, Andrew Stuart wrote:
> 
> What?s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface?
> 
> If you can provide links to show where your ideas are done well that would help to illustrate your thoughts.
> 
> Any killer features that you?d like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface?

Are you referring to the administration UI, the subscribe UI, the 
archives, or what?

Speaking rather generically:

A nice clean look. Perhaps a bit more modern than the current look, but 
not cluttered or trying to emulate a full desktop application. Must be 
friendly for the visually impaired. Nine point medium-grey text on a 
light-grey background is evil.

Must be usable via text-based browsers, like lynxs, links, w3m.

Must degrade gracefully in the absence of Javascript. Preferably not 
need Javascript at all.

At least some search functionality should be available. It shouldn't 
rely on Google, or any external search engine. (E.g. your archive may be 
private, or on a LAN where Google can't get to it.)

Archive URLs must be stable even if posts are deleted.

Access to the original posts should be possible. E.g. archives could 
provide a link which goes to the raw email of the original post, as a 
mbox file or even a text dump of the email (complete with all headers 
and attachments). Alternatively, "Send me this post" should forward the 
post to the user. (What are the security implementations of this? Can 
this be used to spam or DOS others?) As a third option, perhaps archives 
could have IMAP access? (Read-only for users, read/write for admin?)

Viewing public archives shouldn't require cookies. It's okay to require 
them for admin access, or for private archives.

"Infinite scroll" is evil and must not be used, ever. Yes, yes, I know 
that web developers have fallen in love with it. They're wrong.

Should support OpenID.

Are you aware of Hyperkitty?

https://fedorahosted.org/hyperkitty/wiki/WikiStart



-- 
Steve

From danil at smirnov.la  Fri Apr  3 15:21:34 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 16:21:34 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] web UI somehow has appeared broken
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbooZGtVZprLBcLO9-v5nDsNEpDwuJJL+B5j2+MbnhXb8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbooZGtVZprLBcLO9-v5nDsNEpDwuJJL+B5j2+MbnhXb8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbqDyPAScY_EkE+DdukROqWJ6W27-4s6hZUAwxwXDOrUbw@mail.gmail.com>

I've found another list with the same behavior.

It looks like this "http://" action part appears in situation with many
subscribers only.

If the subscribers number become higher than admin_member_chunksize,
and display mode switches to divided by letters, it stops working properly.

From danil at smirnov.la  Fri Apr  3 15:25:14 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 16:25:14 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] web UI somehow has appeared broken
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbqDyPAScY_EkE+DdukROqWJ6W27-4s6hZUAwxwXDOrUbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbooZGtVZprLBcLO9-v5nDsNEpDwuJJL+B5j2+MbnhXb8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqDyPAScY_EkE+DdukROqWJ6W27-4s6hZUAwxwXDOrUbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbooharydQtJy0cZDn9145ou7by_AjRBhmUcp5zzG6DvEg@mail.gmail.com>

2015-04-03 16:21 GMT+03:00 Danil Smirnov <danil at smirnov.la>:
>
> I've found another list with the same behavior.
>
> It looks like this "http://" action part appears in situation with many subscribers only.
>
> If the subscribers number become higher than admin_member_chunksize,
> and display mode switches to divided by letters, it stops working properly.


Wrong.

I've found yet another list which shows correct

<FORM action="https://lists.domain.net/admin/list3/members?letter=9"
method="POST" enctype="multipart/form-data">

line when in the divided-by-letters mode.

Danil

From cpz at tuunq.com  Fri Apr  3 17:02:03 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 08:02:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <20150403115544.GD25453@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
 <20150402200912.Horde.Tu86qY3Sr7bfZkuR4bP_vw2@mail.parts-unknown.org>
 <20150403115544.GD25453@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <551EAB6B.1080707@tuunq.com>

On 4/3/2015 4:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote:
>> The consensus on most technical lists I've seen is very strongly in
>> favor of bottom posting,

> Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here?

To the vast majority of people that use the terms at all, "bottom-posting" 
and "in-line posting" are IME used interchangeably and for the same style.

(Is this an in-line or bottom post? Who cares? It's not top-post. Call it 
'usenet' or 'interleaved' style if you want.)

z!


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr  3 18:39:26 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 09:39:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] web UI somehow has appeared broken
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbooharydQtJy0cZDn9145ou7by_AjRBhmUcp5zzG6DvEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbooZGtVZprLBcLO9-v5nDsNEpDwuJJL+B5j2+MbnhXb8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqDyPAScY_EkE+DdukROqWJ6W27-4s6hZUAwxwXDOrUbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbooharydQtJy0cZDn9145ou7by_AjRBhmUcp5zzG6DvEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <551EC23E.5020001@msapiro.net>

On 04/03/2015 06:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 2015-04-03 16:21 GMT+03:00 Danil Smirnov <danil at smirnov.la>:
>>
>> It looks like this "http://" action part appears in situation with many subscribers only.
>>
>> If the subscribers number become higher than admin_member_chunksize,
>> and display mode switches to divided by letters, it stops working properly.


Part of your issue is the action URL in the Form tag tends to be
relative if the list is larger than admin_member_chunksize so that the
admin membership list is in pages. This is a result of the way Mailman
decides to relativize the URL.

> I've found yet another list which shows correct
> 
> <FORM action="https://lists.domain.net/admin/list3/members?letter=9"
> method="POST" enctype="multipart/form-data">
> 
> line when in the divided-by-letters mode.


Your underlying issue is that at least some of your lists have http (not
https) scheme in their web_page_url attribute combined with the fact
that you are probably redirecting http to https in your web server and
losing POST data in the process.

See the FAQs at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030602> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/4030702>, particularly the parts about setting
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN and running fix_url.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From steve at pearwood.info  Sat Apr  4 01:45:08 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 10:45:08 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
	top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <551EAB6B.1080707@tuunq.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
 <20150402200912.Horde.Tu86qY3Sr7bfZkuR4bP_vw2@mail.parts-unknown.org>
 <20150403115544.GD25453@ando.pearwood.info> <551EAB6B.1080707@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <20150403234508.GF25453@ando.pearwood.info>

On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 08:02:03AM -0700, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> On 4/3/2015 4:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote:
> >>The consensus on most technical lists I've seen is very strongly in
> >>favor of bottom posting,
> 
> >Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here?
> 
> To the vast majority of people that use the terms at all, "bottom-posting" 
> and "in-line posting" are IME used interchangeably and for the same style.

I would love to see your survey results that show that.

I haven't done any surveys, but in my anecdotal experience, I can tell 
you that the regulars on a number of Python mailing lists are aware of 
the difference. I can probably even find a post from a beginner who 
admitted to deliberately adding his reply to the very end of the quoted 
text, without trimming, because he had been mislead by the term 
"bottom-posting". That's what he'd been told to do: post at the bottom, 
right? He was actually quite relieved to be told he was allowed to 
interleave question and answer.

Apparently there is, or at least was in 2011, a plugin for Apple's 
Mail.app which enabled bottom-posting. The quoted email is inserted in 
its entirety above the user's response.

The Wikipedia article on posting styles distinguishes between the 
three:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

although of course interleaved/bottom posting are indistinguishable when 
there is only a single point being replied to.

In any case, regardless of whether it is an overwhelming majority who 
(mis)use the term "bottom-posting" for interleaved replies, or a 
vanishingly small minority, I believe that as we are (I hope) 
technically-minded people who consider precision in language important, 
making that distinction is important and I shall continue to do so.


-- 
Steve

From jan at ecoreality.org  Sat Apr  4 03:12:14 2015
From: jan at ecoreality.org (Jan Steinman)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 18:12:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mystery Mail
In-Reply-To: <mailman.50.1427882403.3337.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.50.1427882403.3337.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <98C9E4A8-294F-412B-BCCC-76FE5B3EDD92@ecoreality.org>

I have an irate user who keeps getting the Mailman month-end postings. I run numerous low-volume lists, and she is probably on more than one.

Is there an easy way to "sweep up" her address out of all the lists? I'm not to thrilled about using the web interface to go through every page in which this user might have been listed.

:::: Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ::::


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr  4 04:13:05 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 19:13:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mystery Mail
In-Reply-To: <98C9E4A8-294F-412B-BCCC-76FE5B3EDD92@ecoreality.org>
References: <mailman.50.1427882403.3337.mailman-users@python.org>
 <98C9E4A8-294F-412B-BCCC-76FE5B3EDD92@ecoreality.org>
Message-ID: <551F48B1.80607@msapiro.net>

On 04/03/2015 06:12 PM, Jan Steinman wrote:
> 
> Is there an easy way to "sweep up" her address out of all the lists? I'm not to thrilled about using the web interface to go through every page in which this user might have been listed.


Mailman's bin/find_member (use the --help option for details).

OTOH, if she just forwarded the reminder email to you, it lists all the
lists of which she's being reminded.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jebva at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  4 05:19:45 2015
From: jebva at yahoo.com (JB)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 20:19:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Templates
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbooZGtVZprLBcLO9-v5nDsNEpDwuJJL+B5j2+MbnhXb8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1428117585.23580.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Is there a template that will create a custom page at http://www.mydomain.com/mailman/options/listname.html?  I tried using options.html but that did not see to do anything.


I was able to successfully create a custom list info page at http://www.mydomain.com/mailman/listinfo/listname.html by using the listinfo.html page.


Any help would be appreciated.  I'd REALLY like to have the options an info pages 'skinned to match the look and feel of my clients' sites.  This limited ability to skin pages (or perhaps MY IGNORANCE ON HOW TO DO IT) is the one weakness with MM that stands out.

From jebva at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  4 05:42:19 2015
From: jebva at yahoo.com (JB)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 20:42:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Templates
In-Reply-To: <1428117585.23580.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1428118939.8869.YahooMailBasic@web122501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I think I found a clue as to what the issue is.    The page that renders has a title "LISTNAME: member options login page".  I am guessing that this login page is NOT what is skinned by options.html (assuming that the actual page displayed t the member once logged on is what that template controls).  So that now begs the questions, how do I customize that "member option login page"?





--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 4/3/15, JB <jebva at yahoo.com.dmarc.invalid> wrote:

 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Templates
 To: "Mailman Users" <Mailman-Users at python.org>
 Date: Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:19 PM
 
 Is there a template that will create
 a custom page at http://www.mydomain.com/mailman/options/listname.html? 
 I tried using options.html but that did not see to do
 anything.
 
 
 I was able to successfully create a custom list info page at
 http://www.mydomain.com/mailman/listinfo/listname.html
 by using the listinfo.html page.
 
 
 Any help would be appreciated.? I'd REALLY like to have
 the options an info pages 'skinned to match the look and
 feel of my clients' sites.? This limited ability to
 skin pages (or perhaps MY IGNORANCE ON HOW TO DO IT) is the
 one weakness with MM that stands out.
 ------------------------------------------------------
 Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com
 

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr  4 06:56:10 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 21:56:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Templates
In-Reply-To: <1428118939.8869.YahooMailBasic@web122501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1428118939.8869.YahooMailBasic@web122501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <551F6EEA.9040208@msapiro.net>

On 04/03/2015 08:42 PM, JB wrote:
> I think I found a clue as to what the issue is.    The page that renders has a title "LISTNAME: member options login page".  I am guessing that this login page is NOT what is skinned by options.html (assuming that the actual page displayed t the member once logged on is what that template controls).  So that now begs the questions, how do I customize that "member option login page"?


The options login page is one of several that are built on the fly by
the relevant CGI without using any template. If you look in Defaults.py
in the Web UI defaults section you will see a number of settings that
you can put in mm_cfg.py to change various colors. In Mailman 2.1.19 and
newer, there is also a WEB_HEAD_ADD setting that enables adding things
like style sheet references to the HEAD section of these pages.

If those are not sufficient to do what you want, you have to modify the
generating code in Mailman/Cgi/options.py

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sat Apr  4 17:26:34 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 11:26:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <20150403115544.GD25453@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
 <20150402200912.Horde.Tu86qY3Sr7bfZkuR4bP_vw2@mail.parts-unknown.org>
 <20150403115544.GD25453@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <552002AA.5080400@libertytrek.org>

On 4/3/2015 7:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote:
>> with top-posters subject to flaming. But  
>> outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with  
>> the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot  
>> hope to prevail.

> Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here?

As I said earlier, this is what 99.999% of all people who say
'bottom-posting' mean, and to say otherwise is either just someone being
pedantic, foolish, ignorant, or (more often imnsho) it is an outright
trollish comment to make themselves feel better about being a lazy
top-poster.

From jebva at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  4 18:24:13 2015
From: jebva at yahoo.com (JB)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 09:24:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Templates
In-Reply-To: <551F6EEA.9040208@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1428164653.62505.YahooMailBasic@web122506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Well that kind of sucks.  It would be pretty difficult (with my limited python knowledge) to edit that code so that it generate a page skinned to each client's web site.  I really think this is the one glaring weakness with MM.  Not trying in any way what-so-ever to kick your cat by say that so please do not take it that way.    It is just hard to create a professional site design utilizing MM when a number of pages are tied to that plain vanilla look and feel.  MM would be such a far superior product if all of the pages were skinnable to match the look and feel of the client's site.

In all of my lists, MM is used as a generic announcement only mailing list.  There is no form presented to subscribe/unsubscribe (email commands are all that we use).  We do not utilize subscriber passwords etc so the whole 'login' interface is 100% irrelevant.  My listinfo page is merely a text with the mailto sub/unsub links skinned to match the web site.  I'd actually prefer to set it up so that either the options page is a clone of the listinfo page (or even better so as to avoid keeping two copies of the same code) simply have the options page (at login or any point) redirect to the listinfo page.  Of course all of this would need to be done on a list by list basis and not 100% hardcoded per se.

Anyway, that is my feedback.  I applaud the efforts to write this program.  I could never do it.  I think tough that a little more flexibility in design woudl make it so very much better.




--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 4/4/15, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Templates
 To: mailman-users at python.org
 Date: Saturday, April 4, 2015, 12:56 AM
 
 On 04/03/2015 08:42 PM,
 JB wrote:
 > I think I found a clue as to
 what the issue is.? ? The page that renders has a title
 "LISTNAME: member options login page".? I am
 guessing that this login page is NOT what is skinned by
 options.html (assuming that the actual page displayed t the
 member once logged on is what that template controls).? So
 that now begs the questions, how do I customize that
 "member option login page"?
 
 
 The options login page is one
 of several that are built on the fly by
 the
 relevant CGI without using any template. If you look in
 Defaults.py
 in the Web UI defaults section
 you will see a number of settings that
 you
 can put in mm_cfg.py to change various colors. In Mailman
 2.1.19 and
 newer, there is also a
 WEB_HEAD_ADD setting that enables adding things
 like style sheet references to the HEAD section
 of these pages.
 
 If those
 are not sufficient to do what you want, you have to modify
 the
 generating code in
 Mailman/Cgi/options.py
 
 --
 
 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>?
 ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
 San
 Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense -
 B. Dylan
 ------------------------------------------------------
 Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com
 

From steve at pearwood.info  Sat Apr  4 18:36:36 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 02:36:36 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
	top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <552002AA.5080400@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
 <20150402200912.Horde.Tu86qY3Sr7bfZkuR4bP_vw2@mail.parts-unknown.org>
 <20150403115544.GD25453@ando.pearwood.info>
 <552002AA.5080400@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <20150404163636.GI25453@ando.pearwood.info>

On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 11:26:34AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 4/3/2015 7:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote:
> >> with top-posters subject to flaming. But  
> >> outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with  
> >> the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot  
> >> hope to prevail.
> 
> > Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here?
> 
> As I said earlier, this is what 99.999% of all people who say
> 'bottom-posting' mean,

Did you know that 99.999% of all people who say "99.999% of all people" 
are just plucking that number out of thin air?


> and to say otherwise is either just someone being
> pedantic, foolish, ignorant, or (more often imnsho) it is an outright
> trollish comment to make themselves feel better about being a lazy
> top-poster.

And which am I? You can pick more than one if you like.


-- 
Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr  4 18:38:04 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 09:38:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Templates
In-Reply-To: <1428164653.62505.YahooMailBasic@web122506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1428164653.62505.YahooMailBasic@web122506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5520136C.4010907@msapiro.net>

On 04/04/2015 09:24 AM, JB wrote:
> Well that kind of sucks.  It would be pretty difficult (with my limited python knowledge) to edit that code so that it generate a page skinned to each client's web site.  I really think this is the one glaring weakness with MM.  Not trying in any way what-so-ever to kick your cat by say that so please do not take it that way.    It is just hard to create a professional site design utilizing MM when a number of pages are tied to that plain vanilla look and feel.  MM would be such a far superior product if all of the pages were skinnable to match the look and feel of the client's site.


Mailman 2.1 is quite old and really end of life. Mailman 3 will change
all this. There is a completely new web UI, Postorius, based on the
Django web framework, and the web UI is separate from the core, so you
can also create your own if you prefer without changing the core mail
list engine at all.

We hope to be releasing a production ready Mailman 3.0 after the
upcoming PyCon.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lac at openend.se  Sat Apr  4 18:59:59 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 18:59:59 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Templates
In-Reply-To: Message from JB <jebva@yahoo.com.dmarc.invalid> of "Sat,
 04 Apr 2015 09:24:13 -0700."
 <1428164653.62505.YahooMailBasic@web122506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1428164653.62505.YahooMailBasic@web122506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201504041700.t34Gxxpc013277@fido.openend.se>

You need mailman 3.0.

It will be released soon.  After PyCON North America (in 2 weeks).

I am not sure if everything you want will be in there, but most of it
seems to be via a skinnable django mailman interface.  Be a tiny bit
more patient, install the new version, and, then get in on the ground
floor of new feature requests for mailman 3.x. :)

Laura Creighton

ps -- anybody know why all mail I see from people on yahoo.com (including JB
here) arrives to me as from yahoo.com.dmarc.invalid.

It very much seems to be a python.org thing, but, ah, why is python.org
seeing fit to add this stuff?




From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr  4 19:38:21 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 10:38:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC mitigation - was: Templates
In-Reply-To: <201504041700.t34Gxxpc013277@fido.openend.se>
References: <1428164653.62505.YahooMailBasic@web122506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <201504041700.t34Gxxpc013277@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <5520218D.1070703@msapiro.net>

On 04/04/2015 09:59 AM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> 
> ps -- anybody know why all mail I see from people on yahoo.com (including JB
> here) arrives to me as from yahoo.com.dmarc.invalid.
> 
> It very much seems to be a python.org thing, but, ah, why is python.org
> seeing fit to add this stuff?


It's DMARC mitigation. Mailman has features for this, but on this list
at least they are turned off. See <http://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC> for
something about DMARC in general and Mailman's mitigation features.

The problem is yahoo.com, aol.com and a few other domains publish DMARC
policies of 'reject'. For our purposes, this means that a message with a
From: address in one of those domains that is not validly DKIM signed by
that domain will be rejected by a lot of ISPs. List transformations will
break the incoming DKIM sig so the only way to get such a message
accepted by many large ISPs is to munge the From: domain in some way.

See the archives of this list from last April at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-April/> for much
discussion of this.

Mailman's From: address munging will replace, e.g.

From: Mark <mark_sapiro at yahoo.com>

with, e.g.

From: Mark via Mailman-Users <mailman-users at python.org>

and add the original From: to Reply-To:, but that doesn't happen with
python.org mailing lists because the incoming MTA at mail.python.org
deals with this differently by just appending .dmarc.invalid to From:
addresses @yahoo.com, @aol.com and a couple of other domains.

Some people think this approach is less disruptive than Mailman's way -
i.e. users when replying are astute enough to just remove the
.dmarc.invalid, or if not, maybe they'll figure it out after seeing the
bounce DSN.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jebva at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  4 21:06:55 2015
From: jebva at yahoo.com (JB)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 12:06:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Templates
In-Reply-To: <201504041700.t34Gxxpc013277@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <1428174415.3627.YahooMailBasic@web122506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Actually I just a few seconds ago did some research and read about the upcoming 3.x series.  I am encouraged by what I have been reading.  I have been hearing rumblings about 3.x for a LONG time and hopefully cPanel will pick it up before too much longer once it is released.

BTW I am a very patient person.  (Not making any judgement here at all), I NEVER tell people to 'be patient' especially when I am merely letting them know that what they are looking for will be a while.  It is like the recently changed wording in phpMyAdmin.  Until the last update, when the app was loading it would say "Please be patient while phpMyAdmin loads", thus implying that the user was an impatient bastard. They changed it to a much better "pleae wait while phpMyAdmin loads".  :)  

Hey thanks for the update though.  



PS I have been having a handful of weird email issues with my yahoo accounts recently.  I am beginning to think they may have made changes to their system somewhere along the line!




--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 4/4/15, Laura Creighton <lac at openend.se> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Templates
 To: "JB" <jebva at yahoo.com>
 Cc: mailman-users at python.org, lac at openend.se
 Date: Saturday, April 4, 2015, 12:59 PM
 
 You need mailman 3.0.
 
 It will be released soon.? After PyCON North America
 (in 2 weeks).
 
 I am not sure if everything you want will be in there, but
 most of it
 seems to be via a skinnable django mailman interface.?
 Be a tiny bit
 more patient, install the new version, and, then get in on
 the ground
 floor of new feature requests for mailman 3.x. :)
 
 Laura Creighton
 
 ps -- anybody know why all mail I see from people on
 yahoo.com (including JB
 here) arrives to me as from yahoo.com.dmarc.invalid.
 
 It very much seems to be a python.org thing, but, ah, why is
 python.org
 seeing fit to add this stuff?
 
 
 
 

From jebva at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  4 21:10:16 2015
From: jebva at yahoo.com (JB)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 12:10:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC mitigation - was: Templates
In-Reply-To: <5520218D.1070703@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1428174616.63672.YahooMailBasic@web122502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I can hardly believe I actually followed that whole post start to end!  Thanks Mark.
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 4/4/15, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] DMARC mitigation - was: Templates
 To: mailman-users at python.org
 Date: Saturday, April 4, 2015, 1:38 PM
 
 On 04/04/2015 09:59 AM,
 Laura Creighton wrote:
 > 
 > ps -- anybody know why all mail I see from
 people on yahoo.com (including JB
 > here)
 arrives to me as from yahoo.com.dmarc.invalid.
 > 
 > It very much seems
 to be a python.org thing, but, ah, why is python.org
 > seeing fit to add this stuff?
 
 
 It's
 DMARC mitigation. Mailman has features for this, but on this
 list
 at least they are turned off. See
 <http://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC>
 for
 something about DMARC in general and
 Mailman's mitigation features.
 
 The problem is yahoo.com, aol.com and a few
 other domains publish DMARC
 policies of
 'reject'. For our purposes, this means that a
 message with a
 From: address in one of those
 domains that is not validly DKIM signed by
 that domain will be rejected by a lot of ISPs.
 List transformations will
 break the incoming
 DKIM sig so the only way to get such a message
 accepted by many large ISPs is to munge the
 From: domain in some way.
 
 See the archives of this list from last April
 at
 <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-April/>
 for much
 discussion of this.
 
 Mailman's From: address
 munging will replace, e.g.
 
 From: Mark <mark_sapiro at yahoo.com>
 
 with, e.g.
 
 From: Mark via Mailman-Users <mailman-users at python.org>
 
 and add the original From: to
 Reply-To:, but that doesn't happen with
 python.org mailing lists because the incoming
 MTA at mail.python.org
 deals with this
 differently by just appending .dmarc.invalid to From:
 addresses @yahoo.com, @aol.com and a couple of
 other domains.
 
 Some people
 think this approach is less disruptive than Mailman's
 way -
 i.e. users when replying are astute
 enough to just remove the
 .dmarc.invalid, or
 if not, maybe they'll figure it out after seeing the
 bounce DSN.
 
 --
 
 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>?
 ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
 San
 Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense -
 B. Dylan
 ------------------------------------------------------
 Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com
 

From fmouse at fmp.com  Sat Apr  4 21:16:04 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 14:16:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC mitigation - was: Templates
In-Reply-To: <1428174616.63672.YahooMailBasic@web122502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1428174616.63672.YahooMailBasic@web122502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1428174964.19924.80.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Sat, 2015-04-04 at 12:10 -0700, JB wrote:
> I can hardly believe I actually followed that whole post start to end!
> Thanks Mark.

You might find the full discussion last spring of the DMARC issue both
understandable and helpful.  It went on for quite a while and a lot of
very relevant points got coverage.  IMHO this is something about which
every mail and list admin should be aware.
> 
-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From dandrews at visi.com  Mon Apr  6 01:17:05 2015
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2015 18:17:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>

At 02:48 PM 4/2/2015, Andrew Stuart wrote:
>What???s on your wishlist for the perfect 
>Mailman web interface? If you can provide links 
>to show where your ideas are done well that 
>would help to illustrate your thoughts. Any 
>killer features that you???d like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface?


A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or 
administrator, needs to be accessible to disabled 
persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA standards.

Dave





         David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org


From carbonnb at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 02:52:58 2015
From: carbonnb at gmail.com (Bryan Carbonnell)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 20:52:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <CAAZtbWGht12macVRWK7jB0kWaPzkfPt+8JreS-L_tEX6t=xkXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Apr 5, 2015 7:27 PM, "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>
> At 02:48 PM 4/2/2015, Andrew Stuart wrote:
>>
>> What???s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface? If you
can provide links to show where your ideas are done well that would help to
illustrate your thoughts. Any killer features that you???d like to see in
the perfect Mailman web interface?
>
> A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or administrator, needs to
be accessible to disabled persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA
standards.
>

+1

Bryan

From jebva at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  6 06:33:15 2015
From: jebva at yahoo.com (JB)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 21:33:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <1428294795.79434.YahooMailBasic@web122504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

There should be no predefined interface, at least none that is not customizable in any way what so ever.  As a web developer I should make the decision on the look and feel on my end so that for each site I build, I can completely customize every aspect of the entire interface.


--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/5/15, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
 To: "Andrew Stuart" <andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au>, mailman-users at python.org
 Date: Sunday, April 5, 2015, 7:17 PM
 
 At 02:48 PM 4/2/2015, Andrew Stuart
 wrote:
 >What???s on your wishlist for the perfect 
 >Mailman web interface? If you can provide links 
 >to show where your ideas are done well that 
 >would help to illustrate your thoughts. Any 
 >killer features that you???d like to see in the
 perfect Mailman web interface?
 
 
 A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or 
 administrator, needs to be accessible to disabled 
 persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA
 standards.
 
 Dave
 
 
 
 
 
 ? ? ? ???David Andrews and
 long white cane Harry.
 E-Mail:? dandrews at visi.com
 or david.andrews at nfbnet.org
 
 ------------------------------------------------------
 Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Apr  6 06:43:13 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2015 21:43:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <1428294795.79434.YahooMailBasic@web122504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1428294795.79434.YahooMailBasic@web122504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <55220EE1.6030008@msapiro.net>

On 04/05/2015 09:33 PM, JB wrote:
> There should be no predefined interface, at least none that is not customizable in any way what so ever.  As a web developer I should make the decision on the look and feel on my end so that for each site I build, I can completely customize every aspect of the entire interface.

You will have that in Mailman 3. The web UI we provide (Postorius) will
be fully functional, but if you don't like it and can't skin it to your
liking in Django, you can write your own. The architecture is modular
for exactly this reason, The web UI and the core mailing list engine are
separate entities that talk to each other via a defined RESTful API.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rafi at brijnet.org  Mon Apr  6 08:11:57 2015
From: rafi at brijnet.org (Rafael Salasnik)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 07:11:57 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help with munge settongs
Message-ID: <3lL1l711jNz7LjZ@mail.python.org>

Have had problems with DMARC bounces. Upgraded to 2.1.18  but still 
having problems. Am still unsure what the settings should be on lists 
where it should show its come from the individual poster.

Can someone give me all the appropriate various settings.

Many thanks


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Apr  6 09:38:40 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 00:38:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help with munge settongs
In-Reply-To: <3lL1l711jNz7LjZ@mail.python.org>
References: <3lL1l711jNz7LjZ@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <55223800.4090003@msapiro.net>

On 04/05/2015 11:11 PM, Rafael Salasnik wrote:
> Have had problems with DMARC bounces. Upgraded to 2.1.18  but still
> having problems. Am still unsure what the settings should be on lists
> where it should show its come from the individual poster.
> 
> Can someone give me all the appropriate various settings.


For the minimum disruption set General Options -> from_is_list to No and
set Privacy options... -> Sender filters -> dmarc_moderation_action to
either Munge From or Wrap Message. Follow the General Options ->
(Details for from_is_list) link for a description of what these 2
actions do and decide which you and your user's prefer. Wrap Message is
more standards compliant because it preserves the original author's
address if the From: of the wrapped message and essentially forwards it
as an attachment. However, many users, especially those with iOS mobile
devices, don't like it.

In either case, the original message if munged or outer message if
wrapped will be From: "original display name via list name
<list-address>" and the original From: will be merged into any Reply-To:
or will just be the  Reply-To: if there otherwise wouldn't be one. (In
2.1.19, it's put in Cc: to make reply/reply-all more consistent with
their behavior on unaltered messages, although that's only when
reply_goes_to_list is not Poster.

Set Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
dmarc_quarantine_moderation_action as desired.

If you prefer to treat all posts equally regardless of the DMARC policy
of the From: domain, set from_is_list to the desired action.

I initially used from_is_list because I was afraid certain individuals
with Yahoo mail accounts would complain about being singled out, but I
ultimately went to dmarc_moderation_action and got no complaints.

I use dmarc_moderation_action = Mung From (I tried Wrap Message first -
I really wanted to go that way - but I got too many complaints. It's an
individual thing. Others with the same or similar devices thought it was
OK, but several complained)

The biggest issue I have with Munge From is with one heavy user whose
MUA doesn't properly handle Reply-To: (and also doesn't add References:
or In-Reply-To: and breaks threading in my MUA, but that's an unrelated
issue).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jebva at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  6 16:09:57 2015
From: jebva at yahoo.com (JB)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 07:09:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <55220EE1.6030008@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1428329397.49088.YahooMailBasic@web122502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Ive been gathering that based on the research I have been doing.  I am REALLY looking forward to the new version.  As soon as it is out I will have to put in a feature request to the cPanle folks to make the upgrade ASAP.  As an FYI, they are tad behind the times with MM.  Their last upgrade was this...


Change Log for 11.44.0.2
Thursday, December 04, 2014 11:35 AM
Fixed case 99393: Updated mailman to 2.1.18-1.


--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/6/15, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
 To: mailman-users at python.org
 Date: Monday, April 6, 2015, 12:43 AM
 
 On 04/05/2015 09:33 PM,
 JB wrote:
 > There should be no predefined
 interface, at least none that is not customizable in any way
 what so ever.? As a web developer I should make the
 decision on the look and feel on my end so that for each
 site I build, I can completely customize every aspect of the
 entire interface.
 
 You will
 have that in Mailman 3. The web UI we provide (Postorius)
 will
 be fully functional, but if you
 don't like it and can't skin it to your
 liking in Django, you can write your own. The
 architecture is modular
 for exactly this
 reason, The web UI and the core mailing list engine are
 separate entities that talk to each other via a
 defined RESTful API.
 
 -- 
 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>?
 ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
 San
 Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense -
 B. Dylan
 ------------------------------------------------------
 Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com
 

From jbn at forestfield.org  Tue Apr  7 01:48:57 2015
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 18:48:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>

Andrew Stuart wrote:
> Any killer features that you?d like to see in the perfect Mailman web
> interface?

Thanks for asking.

Such an interface would work completely without running any Javascript 
to do anything the interface can do. If Javascript is turned off in the 
browser, the interface should work completely. If Javascript is turned 
on in the browser, the Javascript should be free software and clearly 
labeled as free Javascript so the LibreJS add-on will recognize it and 
let the user run it. But no Javascript would be required to use the 
Mailman interface at all. I see no reason why anyone's Mailman task 
should require Javascript.

The perfect Mailman web interface would do what it needs to do with 
links, form submissions, and CSS but work fully with text-only browsers 
like lynx, links, and so on.

Disabled persons access is, of course, something a perfect interface 
would offer. I am sure others can point you to the relevant 
standards/linters to implement and validate this.

Also, the perfect Mailman web interface would let admins use gratis, 
auto-renewing[1] TLS certificates such as what letsencrypt.org is 
proposing to do[2]. Until we can get away from the current 
ridiculousness to publish encrypted websites, letsencrypt.org is the 
most promising practical means I know of to increase the number of 
encrypted websites. A Mailman web interface should offer a 1-click means 
of acquiring a letsencrypt.org certificate that automatically renews 
itself until the admin clicks the button again to stop using that 
letsencrypt.org certificate. And it should be trivially easy to make all 
visits to the site use encryption.

The defaults for this web interface are critical because they will be 
what most installations will offer (I believe most users of most 
programs don't change or investigate defaults).



[1] I know this automation requires the interface's back-end to do the 
renewing using letsencrypt.org API, but from the admin's perspective 
this is automatic certificate renewing.

[2] Obviously I don't know the details of letsencrypt.org's setup 
because they've not yet begun production use of their service.

From andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au  Tue Apr  7 02:02:32 2015
From: andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au (Andrew Stuart)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 10:02:32 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>

Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to you.  What?s the thinking behind wanting to work without JavaScript?  Isn?t it kinda hard to navigate the modern web without JavaScript?

as




On 7 Apr 2015, at 9:48 am, J.B. Nicholson-Owens <jbn at forestfield.org> wrote:

Andrew Stuart wrote:
> Any killer features that you?d like to see in the perfect Mailman web
> interface?

Thanks for asking.

Such an interface would work completely without running any Javascript to do anything the interface can do. If Javascript is turned off in the browser, the interface should work completely. If Javascript is turned on in the browser, the Javascript should be free software and clearly labeled as free Javascript so the LibreJS add-on will recognize it and let the user run it. But no Javascript would be required to use the Mailman interface at all. I see no reason why anyone's Mailman task should require Javascript.

The perfect Mailman web interface would do what it needs to do with links, form submissions, and CSS but work fully with text-only browsers like lynx, links, and so on.

Disabled persons access is, of course, something a perfect interface would offer. I am sure others can point you to the relevant standards/linters to implement and validate this.

Also, the perfect Mailman web interface would let admins use gratis, auto-renewing[1] TLS certificates such as what letsencrypt.org is proposing to do[2]. Until we can get away from the current ridiculousness to publish encrypted websites, letsencrypt.org is the most promising practical means I know of to increase the number of encrypted websites. A Mailman web interface should offer a 1-click means of acquiring a letsencrypt.org certificate that automatically renews itself until the admin clicks the button again to stop using that letsencrypt.org certificate. And it should be trivially easy to make all visits to the site use encryption.

The defaults for this web interface are critical because they will be what most installations will offer (I believe most users of most programs don't change or investigate defaults).



[1] I know this automation requires the interface's back-end to do the renewing using letsencrypt.org API, but from the admin's perspective this is automatic certificate renewing.

[2] Obviously I don't know the details of letsencrypt.org's setup because they've not yet begun production use of their service.
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/andrew.stuart%40supercoders.com.au


From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Apr  7 04:17:27 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 12:17:27 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>

On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 10:02:32AM +1000, Andrew Stuart wrote:

> Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to you.  
> What?s the thinking behind wanting to work without JavaScript?  Isn?t 
> it kinda hard to navigate the modern web without JavaScript?

Yes it is, but not as painful as using the modern web *with* Javascript.

For complicated reasons that will take too long to describe, I've been 
running Opera (with no ad-blocking software at all) and Firefox 
(Ad-Block disabled) for the last six weeks, both with Javascript 
enabled. Call it an experiment, if you like, although that's not 
actually why I'm doing it. My conclusion:

The modern web is a horror without Ad-Block disabling Javascript by 
default.

Honestly, I don't know how non-technical people and those on IE manage. 
Perhaps they don't.

Aside: I thought I had it bad until I started using Chrome, which for 
some reason ignores my web proxy. My proxy blocks a lot of ads at the 
server. With Chrome, I see the web as ordinary people see it. *shudders*

It's not just the popup windows. It's not just the sites that hijack the 
right-click menu. It's not just the autoplay videos. It's not even the 
browser crashes! (Mostly Opera, Firefox seems a bit more stable.) Any 
one of them alone is enough to make Javascript-off-by-default essential, 
in my opinion. (Thank you Ad-Block!)

But the worst is the mysterious Javascript scripts that run in the 
background, grinding my computer almost to a halt. What they do, I don't 
know. What tab they are associated with, there is no way to tell. All I 
know is that with Javascript on, my browser starts using 100% of the 
available CPU, my system's load goes through the roof, and using other 
applications slows down and becomes painful. I turn Javascript off, and 
the CPU usage drops to normal. I turn it back on, and everything is fine 
for a while, until I refresh some tab, or open a new one at the wrong 
site, and before I know it, I have a load of 8 or 10 again.

Allegedly secure sandbox or not, I'm not happy when web sites *demand* 
that you run their untrusted and untrustworthy code in your computer 
before you can see the content. I get that using a complex and rich web 
application is going require some Javascript, but if you (generic you, 
not you personally) insist on me running untrusted code in order to view 
what is essentially static text and a few graphics, then you are simply 
being rude.

When I go back to using Ad-Block (I'm counting the days...) I could 
always Allow Javascript for mailman admin pages on a case-by-case basis. 
But there is another reason for avoiding Javascript even so. With 
Javascript, I can only use a GUI web browser to use the admin pages. But 
without it, I can use text-only, no-Javascript browsers like lynx. 
That's really handy for administrating mailman installations behind a 
firewall, where the admin pages are not visible over the Internet, but 
only inside the LAN. I can ssh into the network, then use lynx or 
equivalent to browse to the local admin pages. Of course using a text 
browser is never quite as good a user experience as a nice graphical UI, 
but if the alternative is a six hour drive to a distant customer, then 
I'll use what I can get :-)



-- 
Steve

From billc_lists at greenbuilder.com  Tue Apr  7 08:00:02 2015
From: billc_lists at greenbuilder.com (Bill Christensen)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 01:00:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <55237262.4040504@greenbuilder.com>

On 3/20/15 8:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 3/19/2015 6:47 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
>> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
>> will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
>> from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
>> reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.
> I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.
>
> In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
> actually use do this.
>
Thunderbird.  ('Reply to list' for listservs, 'Reply all' if more than 
one recipient in a non-list conversation)

Others like Gmail will offer 'reply all' if there's more than one 
recipient.

And what you get when you hit 'reply' will depend on what the list sets 
as the reply-to address.  In Mailman we have the option of setting it to 
the list address OR the sender.  Some of mine go to sender (typically 
lists whose participants tend to go far off topic frequently), some go 
to the list.

A couple of quick rules of thumb I use for responses:  If I can answer 
an original question definitively in one or two lines and it's not 
likely to spark a long thread, I will top post.

Otherwise, I most often use the trim-and-interleave, or if it makes 
sense (as in this post), bottom posting.   In general, follow the 
convention most used in the list or conversation in question.





From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Tue Apr  7 12:50:55 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 06:50:55 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <5523B68F.60309@libertytrek.org>

On 4/6/2015 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> It's not just the popup windows. It's not just the sites that hijack the 
> right-click menu. It's not just the autoplay videos. It's not even the 
> browser crashes! (Mostly Opera, Firefox seems a bit more stable.) Any 
> one of them alone is enough to make Javascript-off-by-default essential, 
> in my opinion. (Thank you Ad-Block!)

Actually, it sounds like NoScript is more what you are looking for (I
use AdBlock too though)...

From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Apr  7 13:35:21 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 21:35:21 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <5523B68F.60309@libertytrek.org>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info> <5523B68F.60309@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <20150407113520.GA25453@ando.pearwood.info>

On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 06:50:55AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 4/6/2015 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> > It's not just the popup windows. It's not just the sites that hijack the 
> > right-click menu. It's not just the autoplay videos. It's not even the 
> > browser crashes! (Mostly Opera, Firefox seems a bit more stable.) Any 
> > one of them alone is enough to make Javascript-off-by-default essential, 
> > in my opinion. (Thank you Ad-Block!)
> 
> Actually, it sounds like NoScript is more what you are looking for (I
> use AdBlock too though)...

YOu are absolutely right, and in fact NoScript is what I have been 
using. After six weeks of having it disabled though, I got the name 
mixed up.

-- 
Steve

From jimpop at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 14:31:04 2015
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 08:31:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR2WtKn6YPu26SAmzNOb-qFU_WS2x5GkwoSDpvX8Cn+JxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
>
> I'm not happy when web sites *demand* that you run their untrusted and
> untrustworthy code in your computer before you can see the content.

How do you currently see the HTML content before it is interpreted by
your computer?

-Jim P.

From danil at smirnov.la  Tue Apr  7 15:22:13 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 16:22:13 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman + postfix: suddenly no delivery & logs
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbrF6rJSRdD9cGQY+=MLSbAodUiesTfBfGQu1Wm9Acr-_A@mail.gmail.com>

I've just send new post to my list and I see that postfix got in and
transfer to mailman script:

cat /var/log/maillog | grep list1 at domain.net
Apr  7 15:45:18 host1 postfix/local[32043]: 15439A403A1:
to=<list1-domain.net at domain.com>, orig_to=<list1 at domain.net>,
relay=local, delay=0.75, delays=0.36/0.02/0/0.37, dsn=2.0.0,
status=sent (delivered to command: /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post
list1)

I can see my message in the archive.

But it seems that there is no delivery to subscribers.

I've check permissions - they are okay. Also I tried to check
/var/log/mailman, but it looks like there is no updates in the logs
for two months, although my lists worked okay (last post was several
days ago).

I was unable to find any other information regarding this case in
logs, I've checked http://wiki.list.org/x/4030723 also with no luck.

I use 2.1.18-1 version on Centos 6.6.

Also I have to mention that I did some ant-spam modification of
postfix recently (see my new directives in the attachment.)

TIA,
Danil

From danil at smirnov.la  Tue Apr  7 15:56:22 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 16:56:22 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman + postfix: suddenly no delivery & logs
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbrF6rJSRdD9cGQY+=MLSbAodUiesTfBfGQu1Wm9Acr-_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbrF6rJSRdD9cGQY+=MLSbAodUiesTfBfGQu1Wm9Acr-_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbrPDUZv_qDuetfNOjvcBuhshwOx0Vi_PLvQsoDKo1UD+w@mail.gmail.com>

Logs found in /var/lib/mailman/logs - everything is okay with them.

Wrong anti-spam configuration is also found: I have to put
permit_mynetworks before any reject_... entries.

p.s. Why a solution always comes right after help message was sent to the list?

2015-04-07 16:22 GMT+03:00 Danil Smirnov <danil at smirnov.la>:
> I've just send new post to my list and I see that postfix got in and
> transfer to mailman script:
>
> cat /var/log/maillog | grep list1 at domain.net
> Apr  7 15:45:18 host1 postfix/local[32043]: 15439A403A1:
> to=<list1-domain.net at domain.com>, orig_to=<list1 at domain.net>,
> relay=local, delay=0.75, delays=0.36/0.02/0/0.37, dsn=2.0.0,
> status=sent (delivered to command: /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post
> list1)
>
> I can see my message in the archive.
>
> But it seems that there is no delivery to subscribers.
>
> I've check permissions - they are okay. Also I tried to check
> /var/log/mailman, but it looks like there is no updates in the logs
> for two months, although my lists worked okay (last post was several
> days ago).
>
> I was unable to find any other information regarding this case in
> logs, I've checked http://wiki.list.org/x/4030723 also with no luck.
>
> I use 2.1.18-1 version on Centos 6.6.
>
> Also I have to mention that I did some ant-spam modification of
> postfix recently (see my new directives in the attachment.)
>
> TIA,
> Danil

From shdwdrgn at sourpuss.net  Tue Apr  7 17:09:51 2015
From: shdwdrgn at sourpuss.net (Jeff Taylor)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 09:09:51 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Will slices ever become permanent?
Message-ID: <5523F33F.1050502@sourpuss.net>

I've been running the modified slice code (three slice servers plus one 
backup server) for the past couple years, and generally speaking it has 
run perfectly.  However every now and then I find that mailman is 
suddenly not running on any of the servers, with no helpful information 
showing in the log files.  And it always comes down to discovering that 
an update for mailman was released which overwrote the slice code that I 
had added to mailmanctl.

This has been such a handy setup, I'm surprised that I haven't seen 
comments from anyone else using the code.  Surely I'm not the only one 
running multiple mailman servers?

Anyway, I was wondering if there are any plans to ever make this a 
permanent part of mailman?  Since the QRUNNERS variable is only created 
for this setup, it seems it would be an easy check to determine which 
method a person is using, and run the appropriate code for each, so 
there would be no impact on people running the single-server setup.  The 
same is true for the backup server -- a single variable is defined ONLY 
on that machine, so the necessary code would only run if that variable 
were present.

From g.aloitus at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 10:53:51 2015
From: g.aloitus at gmail.com (Teijo)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:53:51 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <5522499F.4000201@gmail.com>



6.4.2015, 2:17, David Andrews kirjoitti:
> A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or administrator, needs to
> be accessible to disabled persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0
> AA standards.

Have developers of Mailman 3 default web Ui kept this important point in 
mind?

Best,

Teijo

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Tue Apr  7 18:31:34 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 18:31:34 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <5523B68F.60309@libertytrek.org>
References: <5523B68F.60309@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1504071820340.32383@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

Sorry if I enter now in the thread at an arbitrary point.

Sincerely I'm rather happy with the *current* mailman interface, and in 
particular I'm used to it.

Considered that there should be quite a large base of mailman lists 
around, that they are unlikely to migrate to a new UI soon, and that list 
administrator tasks are something one does rather seldom ...

... e.g. I administrate a very small list (10 subscribers) on my machine 
(probably will add a couple soon), I moderate a quite larger (>1000 
subscribers) nationwide on a server in another city, and administrate a
couple intermediate ones (~300 and >20 subscribers) in another continent, 
while I do not count the lists I'm subscribed as a user ...

... and the frequency of access as archive user / moderating out spam / 
customizing my user profile / customizing list parameters / initial setup 
of a list goes in decreasing order ...

... my main requisite would be that any new mailman UI remains as close as 
possible to the current one (or has a way to revert to it) !!!


Possibly the only real "improvement" (change) I'd like would be in the way 
to go through the subscriber list (e.g. scroll alphabetically, or search 
users who have a specific flag settings).


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From mailmanu-20150316 at billmail.scconsult.com  Tue Apr  7 19:20:12 2015
From: mailmanu-20150316 at billmail.scconsult.com (Bill Cole)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 13:20:12 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <84F5148C-CCA0-4419-A5D9-0360BC90CA87@billmail.scconsult.com>

On 6 Apr 2015, at 20:02, Andrew Stuart wrote:

> Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to you. 
>  What?s the thinking behind wanting to work without JavaScript?  
> Isn?t it kinda hard to navigate the modern web without JavaScript?

I don't know the original poster's motivations, but for me it is 
entirely practical. I work in a diverse variety of environments 
administering a complex menagerie of systems and Mailman is just one 
small piece of that. I frequently don't have a convenient modern GUI 
browser configured to my tastes/paranoias running on a network I trust, 
and it is actually more convenient for me to use a text browser with 
weak or no JS support (yes, really.) It is also an issue for user 
support, since users do work with the MM web interface from time to 
time. JS is an area where interop between browsers and the diverse ways 
users tweak them is at its worst. Supporting users who have found new 
ways for the MM web interface to not work because of JS subtleties 
sounds like at least the 6th ring of Hell. Also, sticking with a pure 
HTML client interface makes it easier to validate its security, e.g. a 
site with no scripts has no XSS vulnerabilities. MM isn't the sort of 
web application that one spends hours at a time using, so the slicker 
operation you can get from a JS-heavy system isn't really very valuable.

Short version: a tool like the MM web interface should minimize the 
possible failure modes even if that means sacrificing some fluidity of 
use.

From geek at uniserve.com  Tue Apr  7 20:30:52 2015
From: geek at uniserve.com (Dave Stevens)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 11:30:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <84F5148C-CCA0-4419-A5D9-0360BC90CA87@billmail.scconsult.com>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <84F5148C-CCA0-4419-A5D9-0360BC90CA87@billmail.scconsult.com>
Message-ID: <20150407113052.93561svd6sennmu4@webmail.uniserve.com>

Quoting Bill Cole <mailmanu-20150316 at billmail.scconsult.com>:

> On 6 Apr 2015, at 20:02, Andrew Stuart wrote:
>
>> Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to  
>> you.  What?s the thinking behind wanting to work without  
>> JavaScript?  Isn?t it kinda hard to navigate the modern web without  
>> JavaScript?
>
> I don't know the original poster's motivations, but for me it is  
> entirely practical. I work in a diverse variety of environments  
> administering a complex menagerie of systems and Mailman is just one  
> small piece of that. I frequently don't have a convenient modern GUI  
> browser configured to my tastes/paranoias running on a network I  
> trust, and it is actually more convenient for me to use a text  
> browser with weak or no JS support (yes, really.) It is also an  
> issue for user support, since users do work with the MM web  
> interface from time to time. JS is an area where interop between  
> browsers and the diverse ways users tweak them is at its worst.  
> Supporting users who have found new ways for the MM web interface to  
> not work because of JS subtleties sounds like at least the 6th ring  
> of Hell. Also, sticking with a pure HTML client interface makes it  
> easier to validate its security, e.g. a site with no scripts has no  
> XSS vulnerabilities. MM isn't the sort of web application that one  
> spends hours at a time using, so the slicker operation you can get  
> from a JS-heavy system isn't really very valuable.
>
> Short version: a tool like the MM web interface should minimize the  
> possible failure modes even if that means sacrificing some fluidity  
> of use.

+1

D

> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:  
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/geek%40uniserve.com



-- 
"As long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business,
the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance."

-- John Dewey





From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr  7 21:22:04 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 12:22:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Will slices ever become permanent?
In-Reply-To: <5523F33F.1050502@sourpuss.net>
References: <5523F33F.1050502@sourpuss.net>
Message-ID: <55242E5C.4070109@msapiro.net>

On 04/07/2015 08:09 AM, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> I've been running the modified slice code (three slice servers plus one
> backup server) for the past couple years, and generally speaking it has
> run perfectly.  However every now and then I find that mailman is
> suddenly not running on any of the servers, with no helpful information
> showing in the log files.  And it always comes down to discovering that
> an update for mailman was released which overwrote the slice code that I
> had added to mailmanctl.


I almost never apply local patches to a packaged software distribution.
If I have a need to patch the code, I will generally install the
software from source so that I have control over when and how it is
upgraded and I don't have to worry that an automatic or semi-automatic
software update will revert my changes.


> This has been such a handy setup, I'm surprised that I haven't seen
> comments from anyone else using the code.  Surely I'm not the only one
> running multiple mailman servers?


As far as I know, there is no actual documented procedure/patch for
doing this outside the archives of this list.


> Anyway, I was wondering if there are any plans to ever make this a
> permanent part of mailman?  Since the QRUNNERS variable is only created
> for this setup, it seems it would be an easy check to determine which
> method a person is using, and run the appropriate code for each, so
> there would be no impact on people running the single-server setup.  The
> same is true for the backup server -- a single variable is defined ONLY
> on that machine, so the necessary code would only run if that variable
> were present.


Actually, the QRUNNERS list is defined in Defaults.py and used in every
installation, and slicing of queues to be shared across multiple runners
is a standard feature. Your changes address enabling the multiple
runners to run on different machines. That only slightly complicates
making this a general feature, but no, there are no plans to do so.

As you note above, there has been very little interest in a feature like
this expressed on this list. In fact, the threads beginning at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-December/074537.html>
and
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-May/077068.html>,
both initiated by you are the only things I recall on this subject in
the last 7 years.

There may be interest, but I haven't seen it so I haven't been motivated
to do anything about it. Also, I'm not sure how many use cases there
might be. I.e. you have N production servers plus a backup that only
processes messages that haven't been picked up for a while by a
production server. Will there be people who want similar load sharing
with either zero or greater than one backup server. I.e., documenting
the configuration options and actually configuring a particular
installation is a more complex problem than patching the code.

I suggest if you really want it, you submit it as a feature request at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>, and tag it 'mailman3', as
it's more likely to be implemented in MM 3 than in MM 2.1.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From slc at publicus.net  Tue Apr  7 22:05:44 2015
From: slc at publicus.net (Steven Clift)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 15:05:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <20150407113052.93561svd6sennmu4@webmail.uniserve.com>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <84F5148C-CCA0-4419-A5D9-0360BC90CA87@billmail.scconsult.com>
 <20150407113052.93561svd6sennmu4@webmail.uniserve.com>
Message-ID: <CALAwQWqZZuwyGxvCuD4ERZv2b0D_qnT_eNeu2hQNn41jm5f1HQ@mail.gmail.com>

As someone who raised this issue 15 years ago and was seriously
rebuffed with lots of notes that said essentially "this is a mailing
list and not a web forum" I then started looking elsewhere.

Anyway, my NGO has put a lot into our web interface for our primarily
email based set of neighborhood forums built on GPL GroupServer:

   http://forums.e-democracy.org

Kick the tires and "steal" as much as you can for Mailman.

I'd check out what other mail-centric platforms have also developed like:
http://wordsandwriting.github.io/lumen/
http://DGroups.org
https://www.sympa.org/


Personally, it would be great to see all these "open source" mailing
list projects work together ... despite the different code bases. Our
members increasingly expect Facebook Groups like experiences and
discovery of new groups to join, etc. ... and I don't see how we
attract the next generation of users without upgrading our web-based
design and engagement (why still preserving full email participation).

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Dave Stevens <geek at uniserve.com> wrote:
> Quoting Bill Cole <mailmanu-20150316 at billmail.scconsult.com>:
>
>> On 6 Apr 2015, at 20:02, Andrew Stuart wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to you.
>>> What?s the thinking behind wanting to work without JavaScript?  Isn?t it
>>> kinda hard to navigate the modern web without JavaScript?
>>
>>
>> I don't know the original poster's motivations, but for me it is entirely
>> practical. I work in a diverse variety of environments administering a
>> complex menagerie of systems and Mailman is just one small piece of that. I
>> frequently don't have a convenient modern GUI browser configured to my
>> tastes/paranoias running on a network I trust, and it is actually more
>> convenient for me to use a text browser with weak or no JS support (yes,
>> really.) It is also an issue for user support, since users do work with the
>> MM web interface from time to time. JS is an area where interop between
>> browsers and the diverse ways users tweak them is at its worst. Supporting
>> users who have found new ways for the MM web interface to not work because
>> of JS subtleties sounds like at least the 6th ring of Hell. Also, sticking
>> with a pure HTML client interface makes it easier to validate its security,
>> e.g. a site with no scripts has no XSS vulnerabilities. MM isn't the sort of
>> web application that one spends hours at a time using, so the slicker
>> operation you can get from a JS-heavy system isn't really very valuable.
>>
>> Short version: a tool like the MM web interface should minimize the
>> possible failure modes even if that means sacrificing some fluidity of use.
>
>
> +1
>
> D
>
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>> Searchable Archives:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/geek%40uniserve.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> "As long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business,
> the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance."
>
> -- John Dewey
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/slc%40publicus.net

From shdwdrgn at sourpuss.net  Tue Apr  7 22:15:23 2015
From: shdwdrgn at sourpuss.net (Jeff Taylor)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 14:15:23 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Will slices ever become permanent?
In-Reply-To: <55242E5C.4070109@msapiro.net>
References: <5523F33F.1050502@sourpuss.net> <55242E5C.4070109@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <55243ADB.8050908@sourpuss.net>

Well that's a shame that there hasn't been any more interest.  I have a 
file documenting the changes needed, which are pretty simple, so if any 
interest is expressed in this thread I'll share the details.  It could 
be that folks don't know the option exists, but you were a great help to 
me when the original problem came up, and this has worked great in an 
environment where servers can be rebooted without notice.


On 04/07/2015 01:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 04/07/2015 08:09 AM, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>> I've been running the modified slice code (three slice servers plus one
>> backup server) for the past couple years, and generally speaking it has
>> run perfectly.  However every now and then I find that mailman is
>> suddenly not running on any of the servers, with no helpful information
>> showing in the log files.  And it always comes down to discovering that
>> an update for mailman was released which overwrote the slice code that I
>> had added to mailmanctl.
>
> I almost never apply local patches to a packaged software distribution.
> If I have a need to patch the code, I will generally install the
> software from source so that I have control over when and how it is
> upgraded and I don't have to worry that an automatic or semi-automatic
> software update will revert my changes.
>
>
>> This has been such a handy setup, I'm surprised that I haven't seen
>> comments from anyone else using the code.  Surely I'm not the only one
>> running multiple mailman servers?
>
> As far as I know, there is no actual documented procedure/patch for
> doing this outside the archives of this list.
>
>
>> Anyway, I was wondering if there are any plans to ever make this a
>> permanent part of mailman?  Since the QRUNNERS variable is only created
>> for this setup, it seems it would be an easy check to determine which
>> method a person is using, and run the appropriate code for each, so
>> there would be no impact on people running the single-server setup.  The
>> same is true for the backup server -- a single variable is defined ONLY
>> on that machine, so the necessary code would only run if that variable
>> were present.
>
> Actually, the QRUNNERS list is defined in Defaults.py and used in every
> installation, and slicing of queues to be shared across multiple runners
> is a standard feature. Your changes address enabling the multiple
> runners to run on different machines. That only slightly complicates
> making this a general feature, but no, there are no plans to do so.
>
> As you note above, there has been very little interest in a feature like
> this expressed on this list. In fact, the threads beginning at
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-December/074537.html>
> and
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-May/077068.html>,
> both initiated by you are the only things I recall on this subject in
> the last 7 years.
>
> There may be interest, but I haven't seen it so I haven't been motivated
> to do anything about it. Also, I'm not sure how many use cases there
> might be. I.e. you have N production servers plus a backup that only
> processes messages that haven't been picked up for a while by a
> production server. Will there be people who want similar load sharing
> with either zero or greater than one backup server. I.e., documenting
> the configuration options and actually configuring a particular
> installation is a more complex problem than patching the code.
>
> I suggest if you really want it, you submit it as a feature request at
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>, and tag it 'mailman3', as
> it's more likely to be implemented in MM 3 than in MM 2.1.
>


From barry at list.org  Wed Apr  8 01:52:45 2015
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 19:52:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Will slices ever become permanent?
In-Reply-To: <55243ADB.8050908@sourpuss.net>
References: <5523F33F.1050502@sourpuss.net> <55242E5C.4070109@msapiro.net>
 <55243ADB.8050908@sourpuss.net>
Message-ID: <20150407195245.51d0cb25@anarchist>

On Apr 07, 2015, at 02:15 PM, Jeff Taylor wrote:

>Well that's a shame that there hasn't been any more interest.  I have a file
>documenting the changes needed, which are pretty simple, so if any interest
>is expressed in this thread I'll share the details.

Any chance you could file a bug (tagged 'mailman3') and try to port your
changes to the Mailman 3 trunk?  No promises, but I'd like to look at your
work.

Cheers,
-Barry

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Apr  8 02:26:43 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:26:43 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

David Andrews writes:

 > A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or 
 > administrator, needs to be accessible to disabled 
 > persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA standards.

We do use industrial-strength web frameworks, mostly Django.  To the
extent they support the "string-of-letters-and-digits standard", we
will certainly take advantage of those capabilities.  Javascript-
disabled, several of us are definitely in favor and know how to do it.

If that's not good enough, "detailed advice, and better yet designs
and patches, welcome!"  Sorry, but that's the reality in a volunteer
project.

I'm willing to do it for money (hourly rate negotiable) :-), but the
LOC per hour would be ruinously low because I am not a spectacularly
fast programmer to start with and know nothing about the standard
mentioned.  Other project members tend to be faster, with less spare
time, and quite likely about the same amount of knowledge of the
relevant standards (standards that don't start with "RFC" are
generally not on our required reading lists).

Please keep the details coming.  We care, we just don't have the
cycles to do it ourselves without help.

Regards,

From steve at pearwood.info  Wed Apr  8 03:56:08 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 11:56:08 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <CAGfsgR2WtKn6YPu26SAmzNOb-qFU_WS2x5GkwoSDpvX8Cn+JxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>
 <CAGfsgR2WtKn6YPu26SAmzNOb-qFU_WS2x5GkwoSDpvX8Cn+JxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150408015607.GB5760@ando.pearwood.info>

On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 08:31:04AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not happy when web sites *demand* that you run their untrusted and
> > untrustworthy code in your computer before you can see the content.
> 
> How do you currently see the HTML content before it is interpreted by
> your computer?

This is increasingly getting less and less on-topic, but to give a brief 
answer, HTML is a markup language, not a programming language. (I'm 
aware that technically HTML5 + CSS is Turing complete, but it's 
completely impractical as a programming language.) Web devs use 
Javascript because it allows them to run more or less arbitrary code, 
which is either impossible or impossibly difficult from HTML alone.

While it is possible that buggy or malicious HTML alone might crash my 
browser, it is far easier and more likely to do so from Javascript. 


-- 
Steve

From dandrews at visi.com  Wed Apr  8 04:39:27 2015
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 21:39:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <auto-000021265931@mailfront1.g2host.com>

At 07:26 PM 4/7/2015, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>David Andrews writes:
>
>  > A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or
>  > administrator, needs to be accessible to disabled
>  > persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA standards.
>
>We do use industrial-strength web frameworks, mostly Django.  To the
>extent they support the "string-of-letters-and-digits standard", we
>will certainly take advantage of those capabilities.  Javascript-
>disabled, several of us are definitely in favor and know how to do it.
>
>If that's not good enough, "detailed advice, and better yet designs
>and patches, welcome!"  Sorry, but that's the reality in a volunteer
>project.
>
>I'm willing to do it for money (hourly rate negotiable) :-), but the
>LOC per hour would be ruinously low because I am not a spectacularly
>fast programmer to start with and know nothing about the standard
>mentioned.  Other project members tend to be faster, with less spare
>time, and quite likely about the same amount of knowledge of the
>relevant standards (standards that don't start with "RFC" are
>generally not on our required reading lists).
>
>Please keep the details coming.  We care, we just don't have the
>cycles to do it ourselves without help.
>
>Regards,


I know what you say is true.  Nevertheless, it makes me sad.  Twenty 
percent of the population has some sort of disability, yet 
accessibility just isn't taught in computer science courses.

The Federal government is supposed to buy accessible technology -- 
and many states, in the U.S. like mine Minnesota, also have laws 
requiring us to procure accessible technology and web sites.  The 
Justice Department has already said that the web is a place of public 
accommodation, and the ADA applies.  It is only a matter of time 
before they issue specific regulations.  So, in the near future, 
anyone producing publicly facing web sites will need to do this!

Using a current, "industrial-strength framework" is not a guarantee 
of accessibility, and passing the buck to them will ultimately not 
hold water.  While at one time turning off javascript was  one way to 
increase accessibility, this is no longer the case.



By the way, the web UI for Mailman 2.X is very accessible -- at least 
for blind persons.

If anyone has an actual site I can get to, I will take a look.  I am 
not a professional accessibility tester, just a skilled amateur who 
also runs a bunch of Mailman lists, as a 2nd job

Thanks!

Dave



From jebva at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  8 05:40:19 2015
From: jebva at yahoo.com (JB)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 20:40:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <auto-000021265931@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <1428464419.9412.YahooMailBasic@web122506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Not kicking anyone's cat here but if the ADA applies to web sites then NO WEB PAGE EVER should be allowed to utilize that HORRIBLE 'flat' design strategy.  Pages such as the new ESPN page are EXTREMELY difficult to read and sue for people who have vision and reading disabilities.

Having said that (and this may sound contradictory) making sure that pages are usable by ADA people is great but you cannot more difficult or cumbersome in doing so.  The ADA complaint should be an alternative page layout if necessary just as many pages (rightfully so) have a mobile version.  IOW it is not necessarily as import that all pages being ADA per se as it is that they all have an ADA 'version'.

From g.aloitus at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 10:40:34 2015
From: g.aloitus at gmail.com (Teijo)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 11:40:34 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <5524E982.8010602@gmail.com>

8.4.2015, 3:26, Stephen J. Turnbull kirjoitti:
> (standards that don't start with "RFC" are
> generally not on our required reading lists).
>
> Please keep the details coming.  We care, we just don't have the
> cycles to do it ourselves without help.

As to WCAG 2.0, it's W3C's recommendation for Web Content Accessibility 
Guidelines (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/).

Testing tools can be found at http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/, and 
information for evaluating web content accessibility at 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/Overview.html.

Taking accessibility aspects into account often make web content more 
usable to all users.

I understand that this is a volunteer project, and there are limited 
resources available.

Best,

Teijo

From jimpop at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 15:29:23 2015
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 09:29:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <20150408015607.GB5760@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>
 <CAGfsgR2WtKn6YPu26SAmzNOb-qFU_WS2x5GkwoSDpvX8Cn+JxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150408015607.GB5760@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR1UpwC0CbKigKuNBk-czjQu+nkTKujqgRJxXKAzw8ybBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 9:56 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 08:31:04AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm not happy when web sites *demand* that you run their untrusted and
>> > untrustworthy code in your computer before you can see the content.
>>
>> How do you currently see the HTML content before it is interpreted by
>> your computer?
>
> This is increasingly getting less and less on-topic,  but to give a brief
> answer, HTML is a markup language, not a programming language. (I'm
> aware that technically HTML5 + CSS is Turing complete, but it's
> completely impractical as a programming language.) Web devs use
> Javascript because it allows them to run more or less arbitrary code,
> which is either impossible or impossibly difficult from HTML alone.
>
> While it is possible that buggy or malicious HTML alone might crash my
> browser, it is far easier and more likely to do so from Javascript.

So, you do want to see the HTML content before it is interpreted by
your computer?  :-)

Look, your JS vs HTML argument is cloudy at best.  :-)

-Jim P.

From xie.47 at osu.edu  Wed Apr  8 15:25:09 2015
From: xie.47 at osu.edu (Xie, Wei)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 13:25:09 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to hide one list from the page
	https://<sitename>/mailman/admin?
Message-ID: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DDEA48E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>

Mark,

I have a quick question - when any user can look at all mailman lists from our admin page https://<sitename>/mailman/admin, my boss asks whether we can hide some VIP lists from all mailman lists. Because recently some spammers sent subscribers request to all lists of our university and attempted to join all lists. Some lists were set to "require approval", so the subscriber requests were pending for approval and notices were sent to owners. My boss wanted some VIP lists are hidden.

Thanks,

Carl


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr  8 16:35:01 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 07:35:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to hide one list from the page
	https://<sitename>/mailman/admin?
In-Reply-To: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DDEA48E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>
References: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DDEA48E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <67258322-7E29-4F23-B240-55C787081B70@msapiro.net>

On April 8, 2015 6:25:09 AM PDT, "Xie, Wei" <xie.47 at osu.edu> wrote:
>Mark,
>
>I have a quick question - when any user can look at all mailman lists
>from our admin page https://<sitename>/mailman/admin, my boss asks
>whether we can hide some VIP lists from all mailman lists.


Set the lists advertised attribute to No.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. [Unpaid endorsement]

From bryan at skiblack.com  Wed Apr  8 17:19:22 2015
From: bryan at skiblack.com (Bryan Blackwell)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 11:19:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to hide one list from the page
	https://<sitename>/mailman/admin?
In-Reply-To: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DDEA48E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>
References: <2F60D2B899AFBC4FAF660B2D9845BE8F0DDEA48E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX06.osuad.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <3494D806-1358-451C-8EA9-B7A68C00EA00@skiblack.com>

On the "Privacy Options" main page (<list URL>/privacy>) for a given list, set "Advertise this list" to No.

--Bryan

> On Apr 8, 2015, at 9:25 AM, Xie, Wei <xie.47 at osu.edu> wrote:
> 
> I have a quick question - when any user can look at all mailman lists from our admin page https://<sitename>/mailman/admin, my boss asks whether we can hide some VIP lists from all mailman lists. Because recently some spammers sent subscribers request to all lists of our university and attempted to join all lists. Some lists were set to "require approval", so the subscriber requests were pending for approval and notices were sent to owners. My boss wanted some VIP lists are hidden.
> 


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Apr  8 19:31:50 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 02:31:50 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <auto-000021265931@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <auto-000021265931@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <87y4m2edbt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Executive summary:

1.  Some aspects of accessibility (providing text alternatives for
    non-text media) can be treated like translation (and will increase
    the burden on translation!)

2.  Frameworks need to help point out the "pain points".  Like: "Yo! 
    there's an ALT-less image here that you can tag!"

3.  Frameworks can and should take advantage of embedded comments in
    non-text media.

4.  I personally don't have much clue about partially sighted (color
    issues or extreme myopia), or those who lack the dexterity to
    mouse around.  However, frameworks can do a lot of the work for
    improving accessibility for those less dextrous (tab navigation),
    and maybe for partial sight?

David Andrews writes:

 > I know what you say is true.  Nevertheless, it makes me sad.
 > Twenty percent of the population has some sort of disability, yet
 > accessibility just isn't taught in computer science courses.

The 85% of the world which strongly prefers to use a language other
than English bothers me more, to be honest (especially since that's
100% of my dayjob users).  Funny thing, American universities don't
teach Japanese and Chinese to their CS students.  Sad, isn't it?

The only accessibility tool for the web that I'm familiar with is the
ALT attribute for IMG and other non-text elements of HTML.  I should
think that "filling in the ALT blanks" would be amenable to the same
kind of volunteer effort that provides our natural language
translations.  I hope that a similar kind of separate effort can deal
with many of the accessibility issues.

Obviously, the incentive will have to be somewhat different.  Unlike
translators who generally get involved for their own convenience and
have some English ability that grows stronger with the practice, blind
people aren't going to be able to write the descriptions of images or
video that they need for themselves in many cases, and it's unlikely
that they'll improve dramatically with practice. :-(  But it should be
quite possible to recruit sighted volunteers for the task.

I'm not sure how to deal with the partially sighted, although I
suppose use of relative dimensions and some CSS is helpful.  But this
is exactly where frameworks can help.  I'm even less sure what to do
about colorblindness, and people who lack sufficient dexterity for
"pointing and clicking".

 > The Justice Department has already said that the web is a place of
 > public accommodation, and the ADA applies.  It is only a matter of
 > time before they issue specific regulations.  So, in the near
 > future, anyone producing publicly facing web sites will need to do
 > this!

No, they won't -- they can always shut down.  And I suspect that's
exactly what will happen to most volunteer sites if they try to apply
the ADA standards to them.  I can't be happy about that.  I live in
Japan, and I assure you that public policies that equalize benefits by
reducing the average suck -- especially for the less-well-off.

 > Using a current, "industrial-strength framework" is not a guarantee
 > of accessibility, and passing the buck to them will ultimately not
 > hold water.

It had better at least reduce the leakage to a trickle!  If it doesn't,
accessibility isn't going to happen.  Content accessibility really has
to be a matter of a separate volunteer effort (especially since every
ALT attribute increases the burden on our translators!!), with most of
the "pain points" being automatically pointed out by the framework.

And things like checking for color and sufficient size of clickable
elements and the like should be automatable.

Realistically, programmers are *not* going to do this in general.  In
the case of Mailman, we'll do some of it, but it's hard enough to
create a usable site for ourselves, let alone the sighted and nimble
in general -- I doubt accessibility is something we'll get to in
Mailman 3.0 (except to the extent that general usability principles
provide a strong basis for accessible pages, as apparently happened
with Mailman 2).

Really, you accessibility advocates should be looking for
opportunities to organize this kind of effort.  The translators prove
that such volunteer efforts are practical, and most translators seem
to be willing to donate effort to apps they don't use when necessary
(obviously, experienced users are preferred).  Translators might also
be willing to do this kind of thing.

But translation only really took off with the development of gettext
-- earlier systems were just too painful all around.  So you should
also be looking for ways to improve the frameworks.  For example, most
image, audio, and video media now provide for textual comments
embedded in the stream.  While most content authors do not (yet)
provide useful comments, some do and others would be encouraged to do
so if the frameworks automagically extracted them and provided them as
default ALT attributes.

 > By the way, the web UI for Mailman 2.X is very accessible -- at least 
 > for blind persons.

That's nice to know!

 > If anyone has an actual site I can get to, I will take a look.

I'll talk to the developers here at PyCon and search the mailing list
for URLs.  A few real lists are running with Mailman 3 + Postorius +
HyperKitty already, and I'm pretty sure there are a couple of demo
sites.

Regards,
Steve


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Apr  8 19:34:43 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 02:34:43 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <5524E982.8010602@gmail.com>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <5524E982.8010602@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87wq1med70.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Teijo writes:

 > As to WCAG 2.0, it's W3C's recommendation for Web Content Accessibility 
 > Guidelines (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/).

Maybe this standard is better, but most W3C standards are not very
helpful to app developers.  They're intended for library and framework
developers, as well as conformance testing.


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Apr  8 20:29:43 2015
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 19:29:43 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <87y4m2edbt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <auto-000021265931@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87y4m2edbt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20150408182943.GD11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 02:31:50AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>  > The Justice Department has already said that the web is a place of
>  > public accommodation, and the ADA applies.  It is only a matter of
>  > time before they issue specific regulations.  So, in the near
>  > future, anyone producing publicly facing web sites will need to do
>  > this!
> 
> No, they won't -- they can always shut down.  And I suspect that's
> exactly what will happen to most volunteer sites if they try to apply
> the ADA standards to them.  I can't be happy about that.  I live in
> Japan, and I assure you that public policies that equalize benefits by
> reducing the average suck -- especially for the less-well-off.

Apropos to that, the US DoJ doesn't really have much effect in
jurisdictions outside of the US. I do wish we wouldn't be so
parochial.

> Really, you accessibility advocates should be looking for
> opportunities to organize this kind of effort. 

+1

> A few real lists are running with Mailman 3 + Postorius +
> HyperKitty already, and I'm pretty sure there are a couple of demo
> sites.

At least one has been posted to one of the lists; possibly
-developers.


-- 
"Get me a beer. I don't care what kind it is, just get me a beer!"
    -- Duke of Edinburgh, on being offered the finest Italian wines by 
       PM Giuliano Amato at a dinner in Rome in 2000.

From jon.1234 at hotmail.co.uk  Wed Apr  8 22:22:07 2015
From: jon.1234 at hotmail.co.uk (Jon 1234)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 21:22:07 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MHonArc - email from web interface?
Message-ID: <DUB122-W16CA9F32D32FDAD537705BD3FC0@phx.gbl>

The mailing list archive at https://lists.shef.ac.uk/sympa has options on the web interface (a) to send an email from the archive to you, and, separately, (b) to allow you to reply via the web interface. It uses Sympa 5.3.4 with MHonArc 2.6.16.?

Are these features of MHonArc or of Sympa??

If the former, I'd look at using the patches at?http://www.msapiro.net/mm/?mentioned in the earlier thread at?https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-December/078099.html

Thanks in advance

Jonathan 		 	   		  

From rb211 at tds.net  Thu Apr  9 00:10:40 2015
From: rb211 at tds.net (William Bagwell)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 18:10:40 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <1428329397.49088.YahooMailBasic@web122502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1428329397.49088.YahooMailBasic@web122502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201504081810.40981.rb211@tds.net>

On Monday 06 April 2015, JB wrote:
> Ive been gathering that based on the research I have been doing. ?I am
> REALLY looking forward to the new version. ?As soon as it is out I will
> have to put in a feature request to the cPanle folks to make the upgrade
> ASAP. ?As an FYI, they are tad behind the times with MM. ?Their last
> upgrade was this...
>
> Change Log for 11.44.0.2
> Thursday, December 04, 2014 11:35 AM
> Fixed case 99393: Updated mailman to 2.1.18-1.

My web hosting upgraded from 2.1.17 to 2.1.18-1 on June 5 2014 so I'm 
assuming cPanle customers (not end users like me) can upgrade Mailman when 
they chose?

In any case plan to ask my host to request 3.0 in parallel with 2.1 if 
possible. Itching to get a test install up!
-- 
William

From geek at uniserve.com  Thu Apr  9 00:38:38 2015
From: geek at uniserve.com (Dave Stevens)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 15:38:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <20150408182943.GD11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <auto-000021265931@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87y4m2edbt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20150408182943.GD11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20150408153838.16313262k1qhmbqm@webmail.uniserve.com>

Quoting Adam McGreggor <adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk>:

> On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 02:31:50AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>>  > The Justice Department has already said that the web is a place of
>>  > public accommodation, and the ADA applies.  It is only a matter of
>>  > time before they issue specific regulations.  So, in the near
>>  > future, anyone producing publicly facing web sites will need to do
>>  > this!
>>
>> No, they won't -- they can always shut down.  And I suspect that's
>> exactly what will happen to most volunteer sites if they try to apply
>> the ADA standards to them.  I can't be happy about that.  I live in
>> Japan, and I assure you that public policies that equalize benefits by
>> reducing the average suck -- especially for the less-well-off.
>
> Apropos to that, the US DoJ doesn't really have much effect in
> jurisdictions outside of the US. I do wish we wouldn't be so
> parochial.
>
>> Really, you accessibility advocates should be looking for
>> opportunities to organize this kind of effort.
>
> +1
>
>> A few real lists are running with Mailman 3 + Postorius +
>> HyperKitty already,

are those apps ADA-compliant?

Dave


  and I'm pretty sure there are a couple of demo
>> sites.
>
> At least one has been posted to one of the lists; possibly
> -developers.
>
>
> --
> "Get me a beer. I don't care what kind it is, just get me a beer!"
>     -- Duke of Edinburgh, on being offered the finest Italian wines by
>        PM Giuliano Amato at a dinner in Rome in 2000.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:  
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/geek%40uniserve.com
>



-- 
"As long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business,
the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance."

-- John Dewey






From steve at pearwood.info  Thu Apr  9 02:33:44 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:33:44 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <87y4m2edbt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <auto-000021265931@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87y4m2edbt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20150409003343.GD5760@ando.pearwood.info>

On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 02:31:50AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> The only accessibility tool for the web that I'm familiar with is the
> ALT attribute for IMG and other non-text elements of HTML.

I'm not an expert, but as I understand it, you can get a long way 
towards good accessibility by following standard UI guidelines and not 
fighting the web frameworks. E.g. don't use colour *alone* as the only 
distinguishing feature between elements. If you have the choice between 
using open HTML that a screen reader can work with, or closed Flash that 
screen readers cannot, then use HTML. Don't invent your own "fancy" 
(i.e. sucky) UI that doesn't interoperate with (e.g.) the tab key 
functionality that the browser already provides.

Accessibility for the handicapped ("differently abled") actually helps 
us all, and for the most part shouldn't be too onerous. 

-- 
Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  9 02:39:02 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:39:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <201504081810.40981.rb211@tds.net>
References: <1428329397.49088.YahooMailBasic@web122502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <201504081810.40981.rb211@tds.net>
Message-ID: <5525CA26.7080505@msapiro.net>

On 04/08/2015 03:10 PM, William Bagwell wrote:
> 
> My web hosting upgraded from 2.1.17 to 2.1.18-1 on June 5 2014 so I'm 
> assuming cPanle customers (not end users like me) can upgrade Mailman when 
> they chose?


cPanel has been fairly quick (but not immediate) about merging our
updated releases with their custom mods, and making recent versions
available to their customers. I expect this will continue with updates
to Mailman 2.1.


> In any case plan to ask my host to request 3.0 in parallel with 2.1 if 
> possible. Itching to get a test install up!


OTOH, it may be more difficult for cPanel to incorporate Mailman 3.
While a large part of cPanel's MM 2.1 customizations have to do with
supporting lists with the same list name in different domains on the
same Mailman instance, and MM 3 does this out of the box, I expect it
will be some time before cPanel offers MM 3.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From steve at pearwood.info  Thu Apr  9 02:42:18 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:42:18 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <1428464419.9412.YahooMailBasic@web122506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <auto-000021265931@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <1428464419.9412.YahooMailBasic@web122506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20150409004218.GF5760@ando.pearwood.info>

On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 08:40:19PM -0700, JB wrote:

> Not kicking anyone's cat here but if the ADA applies to web sites then 
> NO WEB PAGE EVER should be allowed to utilize that HORRIBLE 'flat' 
> design strategy.  Pages such as the new ESPN page are EXTREMELY 
> difficult to read and sue for people who have vision and reading 
> disabilities.

I'm afraid I have no idea what you are talking about. What horrible flat 
design? Do you have an example? What's ESPN?


-- 
Steve

From steve at pearwood.info  Thu Apr  9 03:07:52 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 11:07:52 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <CAGfsgR1UpwC0CbKigKuNBk-czjQu+nkTKujqgRJxXKAzw8ybBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>
 <CAGfsgR2WtKn6YPu26SAmzNOb-qFU_WS2x5GkwoSDpvX8Cn+JxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150408015607.GB5760@ando.pearwood.info>
 <CAGfsgR1UpwC0CbKigKuNBk-czjQu+nkTKujqgRJxXKAzw8ybBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150409010752.GG5760@ando.pearwood.info>

On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 09:29:23AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:

> So, you do want to see the HTML content before it is interpreted by
> your computer?  :-)

As HTML is not executable code, "interpreted" is a misleading word to 
use. But taking it in the loosest possible way, no, of course not. I 
have no desire to see raw HTML content, I want my browser to render it, 
I never said differently.

> Look, your JS vs HTML argument is cloudy at best.  :-)

I'm sorry that neither I, nor the existence of Javascript malware, have 
not been able to convince you that there is a large difference between 
rendering a HTML document and executing code.

I am happy for you to continue allowing Javascript to run in your 
browser, and you should be happy to allow me to disable it by default 
even if you think I'm being silly. All I asked for is that Mailman's web 
UI should degrade gracefully when Javascript is turned off. Is that so 
wrong?


-- 
Steve

From cpz at tuunq.com  Thu Apr  9 03:12:19 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 18:12:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <20150409010752.GG5760@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>
 <CAGfsgR2WtKn6YPu26SAmzNOb-qFU_WS2x5GkwoSDpvX8Cn+JxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150408015607.GB5760@ando.pearwood.info>
 <CAGfsgR1UpwC0CbKigKuNBk-czjQu+nkTKujqgRJxXKAzw8ybBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150409010752.GG5760@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <5525D1F3.1010504@tuunq.com>

On 4/8/2015 6:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>  All I asked for is that Mailman's web
> UI should degrade gracefully when Javascript is turned off.

I'd ask for the same- a UI that -requires- JS to render into a usable page 
is probably overly complex or heavy on the glitz/light on the functionality.

z!



From brian at emwd.com  Thu Apr  9 03:28:02 2015
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 21:28:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <5525CA26.7080505@msapiro.net>
References: <1428329397.49088.YahooMailBasic@web122502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <201504081810.40981.rb211@tds.net> <5525CA26.7080505@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <b7f101d07264$6bcf7b00$436e7100$@emwd.com>

> cPanel has been fairly quick (but not immediate) about merging our
> updated releases with their custom mods, and making recent versions
> available to their customers. I expect this will continue with updates
> to Mailman 2.1.
> 
> 
> OTOH, it may be more difficult for cPanel to incorporate Mailman 3.
> While a large part of cPanel's MM 2.1 customizations have to do with
> supporting lists with the same list name in different domains on the
> same Mailman instance, and MM 3 does this out of the box, I expect it
> will be some time before cPanel offers MM 3.


I posted on cPanel's forums earlier today asking them straight-out if they
were planning on including Mailman 3 in their future versions of cPanel/WHM
when it became stable. One of their developer's post on the forums indicated
that cPanel is definitely aware of the development of Mailman 3 which I
found encouraging.


Brian Carpenter
Owner, EMWD and Mailmanhost.com

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: brian at emwd.com
www.emwd.com


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  9 05:16:15 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:16:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <20150409010752.GG5760@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>
 <CAGfsgR2WtKn6YPu26SAmzNOb-qFU_WS2x5GkwoSDpvX8Cn+JxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150408015607.GB5760@ando.pearwood.info>
 <CAGfsgR1UpwC0CbKigKuNBk-czjQu+nkTKujqgRJxXKAzw8ybBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150409010752.GG5760@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <5525EEFF.5070600@msapiro.net>

On 04/08/2015 06:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> All I asked for is that Mailman's web 
> UI should degrade gracefully when Javascript is turned off. Is that so 
> wrong?


No it's not and Mailman's developers are highly sensitive to this.

I have not been very much involved in MM 3 development - almost not at
all outside of the core (2.1 support still takes a lot of energy and
someone has to do it) - but I can assure you that the people working on
the Postorius web UI are very much in agreement with you on this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Thu Apr  9 05:34:36 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 13:34:36 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look	like?
In-Reply-To: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E1700193A24B92@nuwvicms2>

Andrew Stuart wrote:

> What's on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface?

It would be helpful to me if it somehow allowed an iOS browser to stay logged in. I haven't found one that will - something to do with cookies expiring when the app is in the background, I think.

Peter Shute

From danil at smirnov.la  Thu Apr  9 09:25:17 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:25:17 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <551DA46C.2080208@writestarr.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org>
 <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org> <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org>
 <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com> <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
 <551DA46C.2080208@writestarr.com>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbr_XJMCeyy07fk-sSjw0OiyeVyWQ25EqO=6Et9m3h4Pew@mail.gmail.com>

The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to
the very whole message or thread (like this).
It will save your time and would annoy nobody. (Don't forget to put
your signature right after your answer to show others that there is
nothing else below it from you to search for.)

Use inline posting if you want to answer to different parts of
somebody's message separately.

Why keep using one scheme only?

Danil
P.S. Never use bottom posting please... :)

2015-04-02 23:19 GMT+03:00 Mike Starr <mike at writestarr.com>:
> That's what it seemed to me that J.B. was expressing... that the entire
> message thread would be repeated in each response.
>
> However, "blindly quoting the entire message" is the default with many email
> tools (other than the few that scrub everything but the text immediately
> below the respondee's signature). Click *Reply* and that's what you get...
> and that would be the same whether you top-post or bottom-post. I try to be
> very conscious of it and trim whatever's not necessary but I sometimes
> forget as well.
>
> I'll leave the discussion now... I've seen these top-post/bottom-post flame
> wars in the past. It's just like the toilet paper top/bottom argument. There
> is no *right way* to do it. It's all a matter of preference with good
> arguments on both sides.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Starr, Writer
> Technical Writer   -    Online Help Developer   -   WordPress Websites
> Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates
> (262) 694-1028   -  mike at writestarr.com   -  http://www.writestarr.com
> President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/
>
> On 4/2/2015 2:57 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>>
>> This would only happen if you blindly quoted the entire message.
>>
>> Not ONE 'bottom poster' (inline is more correct term) would EVER suggest
>> doing that, but I do know more than one top-poster who refuses to
>> acknowledge this, and submits the same tired INVALID argument as a
>> reason to support their laziness.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/danil%40smirnov.la

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Thu Apr  9 13:31:34 2015
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 07:31:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E1700193A24B92@nuwvicms2>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E1700193A24B92@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <55266316.7070802@Damon-Family.org>

On 4/8/15 11:34 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> Andrew Stuart wrote:
>
>> What's on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface?
> It would be helpful to me if it somehow allowed an iOS browser to stay logged in. I haven't found one that will - something to do with cookies expiring when the app is in the background, I think.
>
> Peter Shute
>
My understanding is this is a basic problem about using session cookies. 
In iOS, the browser "session" can end even without "closing" the 
browser, buy switching to another app, and the OS deciding it needs the 
memory from the browser so it unloads it, causing the cookies to 
disappear. Perhaps using a "long-lived" login cookie, but that has other 
security issues, and I am not positive that iOS browsers keep those 
either (and many more people have these disabled by default).

-- 
Richard Damon


From jimpop at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 14:55:33 2015
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 08:55:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
	look like?
In-Reply-To: <20150409010752.GG5760@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <55231B69.3040308@forestfield.org>
 <9574BCAE-BE8F-4E08-A8D9-58BD8C4B0C20@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150407021726.GY25453@ando.pearwood.info>
 <CAGfsgR2WtKn6YPu26SAmzNOb-qFU_WS2x5GkwoSDpvX8Cn+JxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150408015607.GB5760@ando.pearwood.info>
 <CAGfsgR1UpwC0CbKigKuNBk-czjQu+nkTKujqgRJxXKAzw8ybBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150409010752.GG5760@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR2CdnmNX8seZNtVTQOE15hR5AimDHgBYpjj_X9HAWn2WQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 09:29:23AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
>
>> So, you do want to see the HTML content before it is interpreted by
>> your computer?  :-)
>
> As HTML is not executable code, "interpreted" is a misleading word to
> use. But taking it in the loosest possible way, no, of course not. I
> have no desire to see raw HTML content, I want my browser to render it,
> I never said differently.

HTML can load swf and jar files (which themselves are bytecode that
you can't easily interpret with the naked eye.)

>> Look, your JS vs HTML argument is cloudy at best.  :-)
>
> I'm sorry that neither I, nor the existence of Javascript malware, have
> not been able to convince you that there is a large difference between
> rendering a HTML document and executing code.

Javascript malware pales in comparison to swf, jre, wmf, and ocx (oh
my!) payloads (all delivered via rich HTML...) but I'm not here to
convince you about the bigger security picture.

> I am happy for you to continue allowing Javascript to run in your
> browser, and you should be happy to allow me to disable it by default
> even if you think I'm being silly.

You are misinterpreting my remarks if you think I allow carte blanche
javascript, the truth is that I don't.   All I've done is point out
that your obsession with .js apparently has no throttle for anything
rendered via pure HTML (or at least that's what you've indicated in
this thread ... "I want my browser to render it,", etc.)

> All I asked for is that Mailman's web UI should degrade gracefully
> when Javascript is turned off. Is that so wrong?

I agree 100% with that, but if there is some Mailman admin-side
javascript functionality that needs to run I'd be happy to whitelist
it in my browser.  That said, I'm working on a simple FTS
Mailman+MongoDB search patch that absolutely requires Javascript for
query results (i.e. "Found 123 results matching 'query xzy'") as well
as continuous pagination (i.e.
while(obj&&obj.firstChild){obj2.appendChild(obj.firstChild)}) and
search suggestions... so I'm a bit more familiar with working with and
using javascript appropriately.

-Jim P.

From legallic+python at crans.org  Thu Apr  9 12:57:13 2015
From: legallic+python at crans.org (Vincent Le Gallic)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 12:57:13 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disable auto-responder for some From adresses
Message-ID: <55265B09.5000303@crans.org>

Hello,

I asked on the freenode.#mailman channel and got kindly redirected here.
I searched the FAQ and the archive for something related but could not
find it.

I have a list, say paperwork at lists.domain.tld, that has auto-responder
activated, to reply
"oh, don't forget to send us copy/paste-able bank information, or your
demand will not be considered".
Then, I develop an interface that is sending sometimes monitoring
information to paperwork at dlists.domain.tld, from an adress
admin-interface at domain.tld

I would like mailman to send the auto-response message to everyone but
admin-interface at domain.tld (the interface admin, aka myself, doesn't
care about these warnings).
>From what I've been told on IRC, there is currently no way to do this
properly on Mailman 2.1.15 (I'm on wheezy), but might be in Mailman 3.

Do you have any workaround to suggest ?
I could, on my side, drop the mails coming as auto-response, but I find
this a bit dirty, plus I'm not the only admin.
I could make the interface send mails from a bogus adress, but if the
guys on paperwork at dlists.omain.tld want to answer, they would speak into
void.
I've found the option to send only auto-response messages in N days, but
that's global to every adress sender.

Am I trying to do this the wrong way ?

I hope I've enclosed every needed information related to my problem, if
you need more context or software versions, I could provide them.

Thankfully,
-- 
20-100
Hope this isn't duplicate, I've had trouble with sender adress.

Apologies for any mistake, english is not my native language.

From michael at hosfordmusic.com  Wed Apr  8 19:15:54 2015
From: michael at hosfordmusic.com (Michael Hosford)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 13:15:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is it possible to have munge_from and NOT add
	poster address to Reply-To?
Message-ID: <5525624A.6030208@hosfordmusic.com>

Greetings,

I've looked through the FAQs and searched the archives, and of course 
it's possible the answer is there and I just failed to find it, but...

I have a very small (<10 members), closed mailing list where everyone 
wants the replies to go only to the list (and not to the poster).  I see 
that this is possible via anonymous_list, but the downside there is that 
(for obvious reasons) you can't tell who posted, unless they sign their 
posts.  Munge_from would be ideal for us (both for DMARC reasons and 
because it preserves the poster's name), except that it adds the 
poster's address to the Reply-To.

Is there a way to have no Reply-To, or at least prevent the poster's 
address from being added to it?

Thanks,

Michael

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  9 15:46:15 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 06:46:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbr_XJMCeyy07fk-sSjw0OiyeVyWQ25EqO=6Et9m3h4Pew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org> <551DA46C.2080208@writestarr.com>
 <CAMrrXbr_XJMCeyy07fk-sSjw0OiyeVyWQ25EqO=6Et9m3h4Pew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <552682A7.9060905@msapiro.net>

On 04/09/2015 12:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to
> the very whole message or thread (like this).
> It will save your time and would annoy nobody.


Except those who receive digests or prefer to read the archives or
actually need the quoted context to understand what you're talking about.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From steve at marmot.org  Thu Apr  9 16:33:32 2015
From: steve at marmot.org (Steve Lindemann)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 08:33:32 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbr_XJMCeyy07fk-sSjw0OiyeVyWQ25EqO=6Et9m3h4Pew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org> <551DA46C.2080208@writestarr.com>
 <CAMrrXbr_XJMCeyy07fk-sSjw0OiyeVyWQ25EqO=6Et9m3h4Pew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55268DBC.2000506@marmot.org>

On 4/9/2015 1:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to
> the very whole message or thread (like this).
> It will save your time and would annoy nobody. (Don't forget to put

And your premise is wrong already.  Top posting on an email list is 
highly annoying to anyone that prefers to read context in order instead 
of upside down.  I, and MANY like me, read left to right and TOP TO 
BOTTOM... it's just one example of plain, old fashion, good email 
etiquette.  I realize there are those that don't read that way but they 
aren't posting to an email list using the English language either.
--
Steve

From jebva at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  9 16:49:57 2015
From: jebva at yahoo.com (JB)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 07:49:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
	top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <552682A7.9060905@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1428590997.16166.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 4/9/15, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
 To: mailman-users at python.org
 Date: Thursday, April 9, 2015, 9:46 AM
 
 On 04/09/2015 12:25 AM,
 Danil Smirnov wrote:
 > The solutions is
 quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to
 > the very whole message or thread (like
 this).
 > It will save your time and would
 annoy nobody.
 
 
 Except those who receive digests or prefer to
 read the archives or
 actually need the
 quoted context to understand what you're talking
 about.
 
 -- 
 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>?
 ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
 San
 Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense -
 B. Dylan
 ------------------------------------------------------
 Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com
 

I do not like top posting.  With TP I have to read backwards through a conversation to understand what is going on.  Makes no sense at all.

From mike at writestarr.com  Thu Apr  9 17:07:52 2015
From: mike at writestarr.com (Mike Starr)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 10:07:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <1428590997.16166.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1428590997.16166.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <552695C8.3090903@writestarr.com>

Great example (below) of why I don't like bottom posting

Best Regards,

Mike
-- 
Mike Starr, Writer
Technical Writer   -    Online Help Developer   -   WordPress Websites
Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates
(262) 694-1028   -  mike at writestarr.com   -  http://www.writestarr.com
President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/

On 4/9/2015 9:49 AM, JB wrote:
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 4/9/15, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>   Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
>   To: mailman-users at python.org
>   Date: Thursday, April 9, 2015, 9:46 AM
>   
>   On 04/09/2015 12:25 AM,
>   Danil Smirnov wrote:
>   > The solutions is
>   quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to
>   > the very whole message or thread (like
>   this).
>   > It will save your time and would
>   annoy nobody.
>   
>   
>   Except those who receive digests or prefer to
>   read the archives or
>   actually need the
>   quoted context to understand what you're talking
>   about.
>   
>   --
>   Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
>         The highway is for gamblers,
>   San
>   Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense -
>   B. Dylan
>   ------------------------------------------------------
>   Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>   https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>   Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>   Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>   Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>   Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com
>   
>
> I do not like top posting.  With TP I have to read backwards through a conversation to understand what is going on.  Makes no sense at all.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mike%40writestarr.com
>


From cpz at tuunq.com  Thu Apr  9 17:21:20 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 08:21:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <552695C8.3090903@writestarr.com>
References: <1428590997.16166.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <552695C8.3090903@writestarr.com>
Message-ID: <552698F0.4000908@tuunq.com>

On 4/9/2015 8:07 AM, Mike Starr wrote:
> Great example (below) of why I don't like bottom posting

I'd say it was a much better example of not trimming content and making it 
presentable; the quoted part could have been cut to 4-5 lines and preserved 
the context for reply. (And the list footer wasn't needed at all.)

z!



From cpz at tuunq.com  Thu Apr  9 17:56:21 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 08:56:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbr_XJMCeyy07fk-sSjw0OiyeVyWQ25EqO=6Et9m3h4Pew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org> <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org> <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org> <551DA46C.2080208@writestarr.com>
 <CAMrrXbr_XJMCeyy07fk-sSjw0OiyeVyWQ25EqO=6Et9m3h4Pew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5526A125.5080304@tuunq.com>

On 4/9/2015 12:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to
> the very whole message or thread (like this).

> Why keep using one scheme only?

> P.S. Never use bottom posting please... :)

In order-
You'd be amazed at what would annoy people.

Because I like it.

Sorry.

(As I've opined before, IME many people consider what we might call inline 
posting to be "bottom posting". I follow language that usage.)

It's not only about where you put the reply text, it's about how much of the 
original you retain. Users of one style are more apt to remove nothing from 
the original message while users of the other are apt to remove large chunks.

z!


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Thu Apr  9 18:00:41 2015
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 17:00:41 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <552698F0.4000908@tuunq.com>
References: <1428590997.16166.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <552695C8.3090903@writestarr.com> <552698F0.4000908@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <20150409160041.GE11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 08:21:20AM -0700, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> I'd say it was a much better example of not trimming content and
> making it presentable;

Along with making one's MUA put signatures at the bottom?

-- 
"a difficulty for every solution" 
    -- Samuel, on the Civil Service

From rosenbaumlm at ornl.gov  Thu Apr  9 19:27:59 2015
From: rosenbaumlm at ornl.gov (Rosenbaum, Larry M.)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 17:27:59 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Discard pending subscription requests from command
	line?
Message-ID: <6f5f6b4d9c594a24a7938ea2ab151b5e@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>

Is there a way to do any of the following from the command line, perhaps with a script?


-          Find which lists have pending subscription requests (preferably showing the pending subscriber's email address)

-          Delete the pending subscription requests (preferably a specified address)

Thanks,

(Running v2.1.12-18.el6 on RHEL6)

Larry M. Rosenbaum
Oak Ridge National Laboratory



From brad at fineby.me.uk  Thu Apr  9 19:37:31 2015
From: brad at fineby.me.uk (Brad Rogers)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 18:37:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <5526A125.5080304@tuunq.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org>
 <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org>
 <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
 <551DA46C.2080208@writestarr.com>
 <CAMrrXbr_XJMCeyy07fk-sSjw0OiyeVyWQ25EqO=6Et9m3h4Pew@mail.gmail.com>
 <5526A125.5080304@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <20150409183731.72bf03bf@abydos.stargate.org.uk>

On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 08:56:21 -0700
Carl Zwanzig <cpz at tuunq.com> wrote:

Hello Carl,

>(As I've opined before, IME many people consider what we might call
>inline posting to be "bottom posting". I follow language that usage.)

More and more these days, on many mailing lists, I see *real* bottom
posting(1);  Several screens of quoted text below which is added a word
or two of reply.  It's got to the stage for me that, when I see emails,
the first thing I check is the scroll bar.  If that indicates more than
two screens of text, I simply ignore it - it's rare indeed that, on a
mailing list, an email worth reading is that long.

(1)  Possibly as a result of people misusing the term when they really
mean in-line or interpolated posting.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Buy some love at the five and dime
You Have Placed A Chill In My Heart - Eurythmics
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From toml at engr.orst.edu  Thu Apr  9 22:04:26 2015
From: toml at engr.orst.edu (Tom Lieuallen)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 13:04:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disable auto-responder for some From adresses
Message-ID: <5526DB4A.7040404@engr.orst.edu>

Can I ask a follow-up question.  Excuse me if this was on the list 
before; I don't recall seeing it in my glance at the digests...

Are you by chance getting spammed by subscription requests from a few 
select IP's?  Maybe trying to subscribe the same email-to-text address 
in each flood of attempts?  This is happening to us over the last couple 
days.  I'm not sure if they're trying to spam the poor person with that 
phone/text number or if they're trying to hack into our mailman or 
collect addresses.  It's quite annoying, though.

Perhaps the answer is captcha, however I see that as being frowned upon 
in the list archives.

So, is anyone else getting hit by a bunch of requests lately?  And I'll 
look forward to any solutions to Larry's request.  :-)

thank you

Tom Lieuallen
Oregon State University

 > Is there a way to do any of the following from the command line,
 > perhaps with a script?
 >
 > -          Find which lists have pending subscription requests
 > (preferably showing the pending subscriber's email address)
 >
 > -          Delete the pending subscription requests (preferably a
 > specified address)
 >
 > Thanks,
 >
 > (Running v2.1.12-18.el6 on RHEL6)
 >
 > Larry M. Rosenbaum
 > Oak Ridge National Laboratory


From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Thu Apr  9 22:13:57 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 16:13:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <552698F0.4000908@tuunq.com>
References: <1428590997.16166.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <552695C8.3090903@writestarr.com> <552698F0.4000908@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <5526DD85.2030807@libertytrek.org>

On 4/9/2015 11:21 AM, Carl Zwanzig <cpz at tuunq.com> wrote:
> On 4/9/2015 8:07 AM, Mike Starr wrote:
>> Great example (below) of why I don't like bottom posting

> I'd say it was a much better example of not trimming content and making it 
> presentable; the quoted part could have been cut to 4-5 lines and preserved 
> the context for reply. (And the list footer wasn't needed at all.)

Correct - this is what I meant when I said the vast majority of people
who prefer bottom posting - and refer to it by that name - do NOT mean
'blindly quoting an entire message, signatures, footers and all, and
adding their reply beneath it all'.

To promote such as a reasonable way to interact on mailing lists would
be the height of absurdity.

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  9 22:24:18 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 13:24:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Discard pending subscription requests from
 command line?
In-Reply-To: <6f5f6b4d9c594a24a7938ea2ab151b5e@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>
References: <6f5f6b4d9c594a24a7938ea2ab151b5e@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>
Message-ID: <5526DFF2.9050302@msapiro.net>

On 04/09/2015 10:27 AM, Rosenbaum, Larry M. wrote:
> Is there a way to do any of the following from the command line, perhaps with a script?
> 
> 
> -          Find which lists have pending subscription requests (preferably showing the pending subscriber's email address)
> 
> -          Delete the pending subscription requests (preferably a specified address)


See the script at <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/list_requests>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mike at writestarr.com  Thu Apr  9 22:45:31 2015
From: mike at writestarr.com (Mike Starr)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 15:45:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <5526DD85.2030807@libertytrek.org>
References: <1428590997.16166.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <552695C8.3090903@writestarr.com> <552698F0.4000908@tuunq.com>
 <5526DD85.2030807@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <5526E4EB.5090904@writestarr.com>

And we can all say that our preferred method is the Platonic ideal of 
email replies but out there in the world, most users go with the default 
reply location set up in their email client (some of which default to 
top posting and some of which default to bottom posting) and if there's 
trimming being done, it's usually done by the email client (web or 
desktop), not the user. At least with top posting, I don't have to 
scroll through an entire digest to see the actual content of the reply. 
I got one like that today (a reply to a 15-message digest) and since I 
was already paying attention to the conversation there was no need for 
me to scroll whatsoever.

I'm promoting top-posting with trimming; you're promoting bottom posting 
with trimming. You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to. Neither one of us is 
right, neither one of us is wrong. We each have our preferences and if 
we each adhere to the approach we prefer, everything's fine. What we 
can't do is flog the uninformed users into obedience (oh how I wish we 
could). And tanstaafl, here's your free lunch... I put in an unnecessary 
CR/LF between paragraphs so you won't have an issue with reading my 
response <grin>.

Best Regards,

Mike
-- 
Mike Starr, Writer
Technical Writer   -    Online Help Developer   -   WordPress Websites
Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates
(262) 694-1028   -  mike at writestarr.com   -  http://www.writestarr.com
President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/

On 4/9/2015 3:13 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> Correct - this is what I meant when I said the vast majority of people 
> who prefer bottom posting - and refer to it by that name - do NOT mean 
> 'blindly quoting an entire message, signatures, footers and all, and 
> adding their reply beneath it all'. To promote such as a reasonable 
> way to interact on mailing lists would be the height of absurdity.

From rosenbaumlm at ornl.gov  Thu Apr  9 22:49:13 2015
From: rosenbaumlm at ornl.gov (Rosenbaum, Larry M.)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 20:49:13 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Discard pending subscription requests from
 command line?
In-Reply-To: <5526DFF2.9050302@msapiro.net>
References: <6f5f6b4d9c594a24a7938ea2ab151b5e@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>
 <5526DFF2.9050302@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <bfd4ad253f3743e19a028684a8856870@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>

> On 04/09/2015 10:27 AM, Rosenbaum, Larry M. wrote:
> > Is there a way to do any of the following from the command line, perhaps
> with a script?
> >
> >
> > -          Find which lists have pending subscription requests
> (preferably showing the pending subscriber's email address)
> >
> > -          Delete the pending subscription requests (preferably a
> specified address)
> 
> 
> See the script at <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/list_requests>.

Thanks!

> Are you by chance getting spammed by subscription requests from a few
> select IP's?  Maybe trying to subscribe the same email-to-text address
> in each flood of attempts?

Yes.

From farokh at mcfsoftware.com  Fri Apr 10 01:36:28 2015
From: farokh at mcfsoftware.com (Farokh Irani)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 19:36:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 3.0 testing...
Message-ID: <55270CFC.3080308@mcfsoftware.com>

If I set up a machine to test 3.0, will I be able to simply install the 
official 3.0 release over it, or should I plan on doing a completely 
clean install?

Thanks!

Farokh
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCF Software...simply dependably engineered
For all your computer and networking needs including hosting solutions
for every need.
Phone: 845-735-0210
Cell: 914-262-1594


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Fri Apr 10 02:49:59 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:49:59 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <55266316.7070802@Damon-Family.org>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E1700193A24B92@nuwvicms2>
 <55266316.7070802@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E1700193A24B9E@nuwvicms2>

Richard Damon wrote:

> > It would be helpful to me if it somehow allowed an iOS 
> browser to stay logged in. I haven't found one that will - 
> something to do with cookies expiring when the app is in the 
> background, I think.
> >
> > Peter Shute
> >
> My understanding is this is a basic problem about using 
> session cookies. 
> In iOS, the browser "session" can end even without "closing" 
> the browser, buy switching to another app, and the OS 
> deciding it needs the memory from the browser so it unloads 
> it, causing the cookies to disappear. Perhaps using a 
> "long-lived" login cookie, but that has other security 
> issues, and I am not positive that iOS browsers keep those 
> either (and many more people have these disabled by default).

I can stay logged in for months on some other web sites, so it can be done. I guess it's just a matter of how adopting the same methods would affect security.

What I would normally do in cases like this is save the password in the browser, but for some reason Safari and other browsers don't offer that option for mailman logins - maybe something to do with the form only asking for a password, and not a username? If getting the login to survive going into the background isn't appropriate then doing whatever it takes to make the browser realise it's a login page would be a good second best.

That said, I haven't tested how long a Safari login will survive for a while now. Maybe the latest iOS does better.

Peter Shute

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr 10 03:13:35 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 18:13:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is it possible to have munge_from and NOT add
 poster address to Reply-To?
In-Reply-To: <5525624A.6030208@hosfordmusic.com>
References: <5525624A.6030208@hosfordmusic.com>
Message-ID: <552723BF.6070708@msapiro.net>

On 04/08/2015 10:15 AM, Michael Hosford wrote:
> 
> I have a very small (<10 members), closed mailing list where everyone
> wants the replies to go only to the list (and not to the poster).  I see
> that this is possible via anonymous_list, but the downside there is that
> (for obvious reasons) you can't tell who posted, unless they sign their
> posts.  Munge_from would be ideal for us (both for DMARC reasons and
> because it preserves the poster's name), except that it adds the
> poster's address to the Reply-To.
> 
> Is there a way to have no Reply-To, or at least prevent the poster's
> address from being added to it?


There are two things here. First, when munging the From: we want the
poster's address, not just display name if any, to appear in visible
headers of the delivered post to facilitate replying to the poster only,
but this creates issues for a list like yours where reply_goes_to_list
is This List and a simple reply should go to the list only. For this
reason the strategy was changed in 2.1.19 so in Munge From or Wrap
Message cases when reply_goes_to_list is This List, the posters address
is put in Cc: rather than Reply-To:.

This is <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1407098>.


Here are comments from the current code.

# MAS: We need to do some things with the original From: if we've munged
# it for DMARC mitigation.  We have goals for this process which are
# not completely compatible, so we do the best we can.  Our goals are:
# 1) as long as the list is not anonymous, the original From: address
#    should be obviously exposed, i.e. not just in a header that MUAs
#    don't display.
# 2) the original From: address should not be in a comment or display
#    name in the new From: because it is claimed that multiple domains
#    in any fields in From: are indicative of spamminess.  This means
#    it should be in Reply-To: or Cc:.
# 3) the behavior of an MUA doing a 'reply' or 'reply all' should be
#    consistent regardless of whether or not the From: is munged.
# Goal 3) implies sometimes the original From: should be in Reply-To:
# and sometimes in Cc:, and even so, this goal won't be achieved in
# all cases with all MUAs.  In cases of conflict, the above ordering of
# goals is priority order.

So, if all you want is for 'reply' to go to the list only, in any
Mailman, set

first_strip_reply_to = Yes
reply_goes_to list = This List

If you also want DMARC Munge From or Wrap Message actions, then this
will still work with Mailman 2.1.19 and up.

If you really want to rewrite the From: with the posters display name
via the list and not have the poster's address in Reply-To: or Cc: at
all, this would require code modification.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr 10 03:21:56 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 18:21:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MHonArc - email from web interface?
In-Reply-To: <DUB122-W16CA9F32D32FDAD537705BD3FC0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB122-W16CA9F32D32FDAD537705BD3FC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <552725B4.7000805@msapiro.net>

On 04/08/2015 01:22 PM, Jon 1234 wrote:
> 
> Are these features of MHonArc or of Sympa? 


Mhonarc is at <http://www.mhonarc.org/> and sympa is at
<http://www.sympa.org/>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr 10 03:33:19 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 18:33:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Discard pending subscription requests from
 command line?
In-Reply-To: <bfd4ad253f3743e19a028684a8856870@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>
References: <6f5f6b4d9c594a24a7938ea2ab151b5e@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>
 <5526DFF2.9050302@msapiro.net>
 <bfd4ad253f3743e19a028684a8856870@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>
Message-ID: <5527285F.4090805@msapiro.net>

On 04/09/2015 01:49 PM, Rosenbaum, Larry M. wrote:
>> On 04/09/2015 10:27 AM, Rosenbaum, Larry M. wrote:
> 
>> Are you by chance getting spammed by subscription requests from a few
>> select IP's?  Maybe trying to subscribe the same email-to-text address
>> in each flood of attempts?
> 
> Yes.


It is not clear where the above quoted text came from. It is not in any
of the archived messages in this thread prior to the one to which I'm
replying here.

Anyway, if yoy are geqtting spammed with web subscribes, see the
mm_cfg.py setting SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET implemented in 2.1.16 and the
related SUBSCRIBE_FORM_MIN_TIME setting and the bug report at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1082746>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Fri Apr 10 04:05:28 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:05:28 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <5526E4EB.5090904@writestarr.com>
References: <1428590997.16166.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <552695C8.3090903@writestarr.com> <552698F0.4000908@tuunq.com>
 <5526DD85.2030807@libertytrek.org> <5526E4EB.5090904@writestarr.com>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E1700193A24BA2@nuwvicms2>

Mike Starr wrote:

> And we can all say that our preferred method is the Platonic 
> ideal of email replies but out there in the world, most users 
> go with the default reply location set up in their email 
> client (some of which default to top posting and some of 
> which default to bottom posting) and if there's trimming 
> being done, it's usually done by the email client (web or 
> desktop), not the user. At least with top posting, I don't 
> have to scroll through an entire digest to see the actual 
> content of the reply. 

Speaking of mail client behaviour, I noticed recently that if you select some text before hitting Reply, iOS's Mail app will only quote the selected material. It's a pity making the selection is so tedious (selection shortcuts only work in the reply, not in the original email), but they do seem to be trying to cater for people who don't simply quote everything.

Peter Shute

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Fri Apr 10 05:29:02 2015
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 23:29:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E1700193A24B9E@nuwvicms2>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E1700193A24B92@nuwvicms2>
 <55266316.7070802@Damon-Family.org>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E1700193A24B9E@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <5527437E.1010309@Damon-Family.org>

On 4/9/15 8:49 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> Richard Damon wrote:
>
>>> It would be helpful to me if it somehow allowed an iOS
>> browser to stay logged in. I haven't found one that will -
>> something to do with cookies expiring when the app is in the
>> background, I think.
>>> Peter Shute
>>>
>> My understanding is this is a basic problem about using
>> session cookies.
>> In iOS, the browser "session" can end even without "closing"
>> the browser, buy switching to another app, and the OS
>> deciding it needs the memory from the browser so it unloads
>> it, causing the cookies to disappear. Perhaps using a
>> "long-lived" login cookie, but that has other security
>> issues, and I am not positive that iOS browsers keep those
>> either (and many more people have these disabled by default).
> I can stay logged in for months on some other web sites, so it can be done. I guess it's just a matter of how adopting the same methods would affect security.
>
> What I would normally do in cases like this is save the password in the browser, but for some reason Safari and other browsers don't offer that option for mailman logins - maybe something to do with the form only asking for a password, and not a username? If getting the login to survive going into the background isn't appropriate then doing whatever it takes to make the browser realise it's a login page would be a good second best.
>
> That said, I haven't tested how long a Safari login will survive for a while now. Maybe the latest iOS does better.
>
> Peter Shute
>
Web sites that keep you logged in for a long period of time tend to use 
a "long-lived" cookie to validate you (in addition to the session cookie 
like Mailman uses). Normally this cookie holds a token that the site 
will accept as a valid log in for you. The security risk is that if 
something gets hold of this cookie, then it too can log into the site, 
and thus presents a security risk. How big a risk depends on a number of 
factors.

Yes, I suspect that the lack of a user name on the admin pages is what 
trips up most password memory systems.

-- 
Richard Damon


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Apr 10 06:36:20 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:36:20 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <20150408153838.16313262k1qhmbqm@webmail.uniserve.com>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
 <auto-000021008619@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87zj6jea7w.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <auto-000021265931@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <87y4m2edbt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20150408182943.GD11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <20150408153838.16313262k1qhmbqm@webmail.uniserve.com>
Message-ID: <87k2xkeh17.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Dave Stevens writes:

 > >> A few real lists are running with Mailman 3 + Postorius +
 > >> HyperKitty already,
 > 
 > are those apps ADA-compliant?

Don't know, but probably not.  If we knew they were, we wouldn't be
having this discussion, somebody would have just said "No problem, we
already conform."  But it's not something anybody at Mailman knows
about (I just checked with the HyperKitty guys -- see, I'm on it! --
and they said "WCAG what?").  The Postorius people should be here
(PyCon 2015 @Montr?al) shortly, but I don't actually expect much more
joy from them -- Terri's a security person, her life is about creating
"inaccessibility", if you see what I mean. ;-)

As I've said before, sympathy have we, but skill, not.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Apr 10 06:44:02 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:44:02 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Discard pending subscription requests from
 command line?
In-Reply-To: <5527285F.4090805@msapiro.net>
References: <6f5f6b4d9c594a24a7938ea2ab151b5e@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>
 <5526DFF2.9050302@msapiro.net>
 <bfd4ad253f3743e19a028684a8856870@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>
 <5527285F.4090805@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87iod4egod.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > It is not clear where the above quoted text came from. It is not in any
 > of the archived messages in this thread prior to the one to which I'm
 > replying here.

Somebody copied it into a reply to a message from another thread, it
looks like.  See <5526DB4A.7040404 at engr.orst.edu>.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Apr 10 06:46:55 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:46:55 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <5526A125.5080304@tuunq.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org>
 <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>
 <551D804D.9030707@forestfield.org>
 <551D87EE.7020505@writestarr.com>
 <551D9F1B.5000302@libertytrek.org>
 <551DA46C.2080208@writestarr.com>
 <CAMrrXbr_XJMCeyy07fk-sSjw0OiyeVyWQ25EqO=6Et9m3h4Pew@mail.gmail.com>
 <5526A125.5080304@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <87h9soegjk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Carl Zwanzig writes:

 > (As I've opined before, IME many people consider what we might call inline 
 > posting to be "bottom posting". I follow language that usage.)

Uh, right, Yoda.  May the Farce be with you!






From danijel.domazet at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 09:46:09 2015
From: danijel.domazet at gmail.com (Danijel Domazet)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:46:09 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Suppress daily notifications "request(s) waiting
	for your consideration"?
Message-ID: <CAL5QDY5gNdcHQz=aiKP6JGvRueAgex1amBUmU0F5C-iq6_DMOw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi mailmans,
As a list admind I am getting daily messages:

"The list at domain mailing list has 125 request(s) waiting for your
consideration... Please attend to this at your earliest convenience. This
notice of pending requests, if any, will be sent out daily."

Is there a way to suppress the daily notifications?

Thanks.

Danijel

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Fri Apr 10 09:58:11 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:58:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <5526E4EB.5090904@writestarr.com>
References: <5526E4EB.5090904@writestarr.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1504100952040.32383@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

On Thu, 9 Apr 2015, Mike Starr wrote:

> I'm promoting top-posting with trimming; you're promoting bottom posting
> with trimming.

Well ,,, yes, trimming is really what is needed (and interleaving !) 
Quoting the entire message is annoying and wasteful of storage space and 
of one's attention !

Said that, bottom (or better interleaved if the message is long and has 
many subtopics unlike this one) posting is more legible, compare this one 
where I reply below the text and the example below the dashed line which 
is reversed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well ,,, yes, trimming is really what is needed (and interleaving !) 
Quoting the entire message is annoying and wasteful of storage space and 
of one's attention !

Said that, bottom (or better interleaved if the message is long and has 
many subtopics unlike this one) posting is more legible, compare this one 
where I reply ABOVE the text and the example ABOVE the dashed line which 
is "normal".

On Thu, 9 Apr 2015, Mike Starr wrote:

> I'm promoting top-posting with trimming; you're promoting bottom posting
> with trimming.




-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr 10 12:59:42 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 03:59:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Suppress daily notifications "request(s)
 waiting for your consideration"?
In-Reply-To: <CAL5QDY5gNdcHQz=aiKP6JGvRueAgex1amBUmU0F5C-iq6_DMOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL5QDY5gNdcHQz=aiKP6JGvRueAgex1amBUmU0F5C-iq6_DMOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5527AD1E.2040608@msapiro.net>

On 04/10/2015 12:46 AM, Danijel Domazet wrote:
> Hi mailmans,
> As a list admind I am getting daily messages:
> 
> "The list at domain mailing list has 125 request(s) waiting for your
> consideration... Please attend to this at your earliest convenience. This
> notice of pending requests, if any, will be sent out daily."
> 
> Is there a way to suppress the daily notifications?


1) Handle the requests so there aren't any. The admin General Options
list setting max_days_to_hold may help with held messages, and the
script at <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/list_requests> may help too.

or 2) remove crom/checkdbs from Mailman's crontab.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr 10 13:18:10 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 04:18:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disable auto-responder for some From adresses
In-Reply-To: <5526DB4A.7040404@engr.orst.edu>
References: <5526DB4A.7040404@engr.orst.edu>
Message-ID: <5527B172.60907@msapiro.net>

On 04/09/2015 01:04 PM, Tom Lieuallen wrote:
> 
> Are you by chance getting spammed by subscription requests from a few
> select IP's?  Maybe trying to subscribe the same email-to-text address
> in each flood of attempts?  This is happening to us over the last couple
> days.  I'm not sure if they're trying to spam the poor person with that
> phone/text number or if they're trying to hack into our mailman or
> collect addresses.  It's quite annoying, though.
> 
> Perhaps the answer is captcha, however I see that as being frowned upon
> in the list archives.


As I said in another reply (somehow, what with being on airplanes all
day, I missed this post first time around),

> Anyway, if you are geqtting spammed with web subscribes, see the
> mm_cfg.py setting SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET implemented in 2.1.16 and the
> related SUBSCRIBE_FORM_MIN_TIME setting and the bug report at
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1082746>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From toml at engr.orst.edu  Fri Apr 10 17:11:06 2015
From: toml at engr.orst.edu (Tom Lieuallen)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 08:11:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Discard pending subscription requests from
 command line?
In-Reply-To: <5527285F.4090805@msapiro.net>
References: <6f5f6b4d9c594a24a7938ea2ab151b5e@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>
 <5526DFF2.9050302@msapiro.net>
 <bfd4ad253f3743e19a028684a8856870@EXCHOS30.ornl.gov>
 <5527285F.4090805@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5527E80A.9000403@engr.orst.edu>

I'm the culprit... :-)

I was getting digest; had removed any previous digests sent to me; 
checked the archives and sent a mail, inappropriately tapping into that 
thread.

Sorry about the confusion.  I will check the settings and bug.  And I 
did really appreciate that 'list_requests' script as well; it worked great.

thank you

Tom Lieuallen

On 4/9/15 6:33 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 04/09/2015 01:49 PM, Rosenbaum, Larry M. wrote:
>>> On 04/09/2015 10:27 AM, Rosenbaum, Larry M. wrote:
>>
>>> Are you by chance getting spammed by subscription requests from a few
>>> select IP's?  Maybe trying to subscribe the same email-to-text address
>>> in each flood of attempts?
>>
>> Yes.
>
>
> It is not clear where the above quoted text came from. It is not in any
> of the archived messages in this thread prior to the one to which I'm
> replying here.
>
> Anyway, if yoy are geqtting spammed with web subscribes, see the
> mm_cfg.py setting SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET implemented in 2.1.16 and the
> related SUBSCRIBE_FORM_MIN_TIME setting and the bug report at
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1082746>.
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr 11 06:05:28 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 21:05:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disable auto-responder for some From adresses
In-Reply-To: <55265B09.5000303@crans.org>
References: <55265B09.5000303@crans.org>
Message-ID: <55289D88.8010704@msapiro.net>

On 04/09/2015 03:57 AM, Vincent Le Gallic wrote:
> 
> I would like mailman to send the auto-response message to everyone but
> admin-interface at domain.tld (the interface admin, aka myself, doesn't
> care about these warnings).
>>From what I've been told on IRC, there is currently no way to do this
> properly on Mailman 2.1.15 (I'm on wheezy), but might be in Mailman 3.


If by "properly" you mean via some combination of list settings, that's
correct.


> Do you have any workaround to suggest ?


If you want to do it in Mailman, you have to patch the code, but it's a
very simple patch. In Mailman/Handlers/Replybot.py, following these lines:

>     if ((toadmin and not mlist.autorespond_admin) or
>            (torequest and not mlist.autorespond_requests) or \
>            (not toadmin and not torequest and not mlist.autorespond_postings)):
>         return
>     # Now see if we're in the grace period for this sender.  graceperiod <= 0
>     # means always autorespond, as does an "X-Ack: yes" header (useful for
>     # debugging).
>     sender = msg.get_sender()

add

    if sender == 'admin-interface at domain.tld':
        return

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jebva at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 11 07:59:27 2015
From: jebva at yahoo.com (JB)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:59:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
	top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <552695C8.3090903@writestarr.com>
Message-ID: <1428731967.14847.YahooMailBasic@web122502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 4/9/15, Mike Starr <mike at writestarr.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
 To: mailman-users at python.org
 Date: Thursday, April 9, 2015, 11:07 AM
 
 Great example (below) of
 why I don't like bottom posting
 
 Best Regards,
 
 Mike
 -- 
 Mike
 Starr, Writer
 Technical
 Writer???-? ? Online Help
 Developer???-???WordPress Websites
 Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom
 Microsoft Word templates
 (262)
 694-1028???-? mike at writestarr.com???-?
 http://www.writestarr.com
 President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/
 
 On 4/9/2015 9:49 AM, JB
 wrote:
 >
 --------------------------------------------
 > On Thu, 4/9/15, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
 wrote:
 >
 >???Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users]
 I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
 >???To: mailman-users at python.org
 >???Date: Thursday, April 9,
 2015, 9:46 AM
 >???
 >???On 04/09/2015 12:25 AM,
 >???Danil Smirnov wrote:
 >???> The solutions is
 >???quite simple - use
 top-posting if you answering to
 >???> the very whole message
 or thread (like
 >???this).
 >???> It will save your time
 and would
 >???annoy nobody.
 >???
 >???
 >???Except those who receive
 digests or prefer to
 >???read
 the archives or
 >???actually
 need the
 >???quoted context to
 understand what you're talking
 >???about.
 >???
 >???--
 >???Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
 >? ? ? ???The highway is for
 gamblers,
 >???San
 >???Francisco Bay Area,
 California? ? better use your sense -
 >???B. Dylan
 >???------------------------------------------------------
 >???Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 >???https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 >???Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 >???Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 >???Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 >???Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com
 >???
 >
 > I do not like top posting.? With TP I
 have to read backwards through a conversation to understand
 what is going on.? Makes no sense at all.
 >
 ------------------------------------------------------
 > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mike%40writestarr.com
 >
 
 ------------------------------------------------------
 Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com
 


Why>?  I followd the discussion perfectly until you to posted and broke the logic.

From gdr at gno.org  Fri Apr 10 17:44:13 2015
From: gdr at gno.org (Devin Reade)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:44:13 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] force re-authentication in web UI
Message-ID: <A9084AF6BECDDC479740B931@radelix.gno.org>

In the case where a list owner or moderator password has been 
compromised, or when performing a change of owner/moderator, 
one should obviously change the related passwords.  However,
if a former owner/moderator (or the person who stole the password)
still has their browser open, their cookie is still valid
and they can continue to access and change the list.

I've been perusing the various docs to see if there is a method
to purge state such that web UI users are required to re-authenticate
(either globally or on a per-list basis), but cannot find anything.
Simply restarting apache isn't sufficient (determined emperically).

Does this feature exist?  If so, any pointers are appreciated.

Running mailman-2.1.16 with httpd-2.2.15.

Devin


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr 11 13:45:54 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 04:45:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] force re-authentication in web UI
In-Reply-To: <A9084AF6BECDDC479740B931@radelix.gno.org>
References: <A9084AF6BECDDC479740B931@radelix.gno.org>
Message-ID: <55290972.4040209@msapiro.net>

On 04/10/2015 08:44 AM, Devin Reade wrote:
> In the case where a list owner or moderator password has been 
> compromised, or when performing a change of owner/moderator, 
> one should obviously change the related passwords.  However,
> if a former owner/moderator (or the person who stole the password)
> still has their browser open, their cookie is still valid
> and they can continue to access and change the list.


Are you sure? The data that is hashed in the cookie contains the
password and the validation process uses the current password, so a
pre-change cookie is not still valid.

You can get confused if you change the password from the web UI, because
that also updates the cookie for the browser doing the change.

If you log in with a browser and get a cookie and then change the PW
with bin/change_pw, you'll see the browser's cookie is no longer valid.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From thomas at ifi.uio.no  Mon Apr 13 20:11:36 2015
From: thomas at ifi.uio.no (Thomas Gramstad)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 20:11:36 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Version number?
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1504132010500.6258@vetur.ifi.uio.no>

How can I find out what version number of Mailman I'm using?

Thomas Gramstad

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Apr 13 22:04:30 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 05:04:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Version number?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1504132010500.6258@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1504132010500.6258@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <87wq1fztf5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Thomas Gramstad writes:

 > How can I find out what version number of Mailman I'm using?

Visit the web interface (for subscribers, moderators, or admins), it's
in the footer.  If you have shell access to the server, you can look
in mailman/Mailman/Version.py.  If you have a package manager and
shell access you can get it from the package manager.

If none of that is helpful, let us know a little bit more about what
your situation is, what accesses you have, and what you've already
tried.  Maybe why you want to know, it's not necessary but sometimes
that helps figure out some of the other things.


From thomas at ifi.uio.no  Tue Apr 14 23:55:16 2015
From: thomas at ifi.uio.no (Thomas Gramstad)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 23:55:16 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] .listadmin.ini (Re:  Version number?)
In-Reply-To: <87wq1fztf5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1504132010500.6258@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <87wq1fztf5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1504142345440.1219@brederode.ifi.uio.no>

On Mon, 13 Apr 2015, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> Thomas Gramstad writes:
>
> > How can I find out what version number of Mailman I'm using?
>
> Visit the web interface (for subscribers, moderators, or 
> admins), it's in the footer.  If you have shell access to the 
> server, you can look in mailman/Mailman/Version.py.  If you 
> have a package manager and shell access you can get it from the 
> package manager.

Thank you, it's version 2.1.14 on the installation I use the 
most. And my real question is --

> If none of that is helpful, let us know a little bit more about 
> what your situation is, what accesses you have, and what you've 
> already tried.  Maybe why you want to know, it's not necessary 
> but sometimes that helps figure out some of the other things.

The problem is, I want to use listadmin for all my lists if 
possible: https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=listadmin

and it works for lists at an installation which runs 2.1.9. But 
listadmin doesn't seem to work with 2.1.14. Maybe listadmin isn't 
being kept up to date? Or does it work with the newest version of 
Mailman?

Or maybe I have some syntactic error in the .listadmin.ini file? 
The installation is running at a subdomain, mailman.efn.no, so 
that one of the lists have this address: 
datahistorie at mailman.efn.no

and I have this entry for the list in .listadmin.ini :

username thomas at efn.no
spamlevel 5
default discard
password ......
adminurl http://{domain}/mailman/admin/{list}
datahistorie at mailman.efn.no

Is the adminurl syntax correct?

Thomas Gramstad

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr 15 00:35:54 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 15:35:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] .listadmin.ini (Re:  Version number?)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1504142345440.1219@brederode.ifi.uio.no>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1504132010500.6258@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <87wq1fztf5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1504142345440.1219@brederode.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <552D964A.2040307@msapiro.net>

On 04/14/2015 02:55 PM, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
> 
> The problem is, I want to use listadmin for all my lists if possible:
> https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=listadmin
> 
> and it works for lists at an installation which runs 2.1.9. But
> listadmin doesn't seem to work with 2.1.14. Maybe listadmin isn't being
> kept up to date? Or does it work with the newest version of Mailman?


According to the results of the above search, the same listadmin version
(2.40.4) works with squeeze (MM 2.1.13), wheezy (MM 2.1.15), and jessie
and sid (MM 2.1.18), so it should work.


> Or maybe I have some syntactic error in the .listadmin.ini file? The
> installation is running at a subdomain, mailman.efn.no, so that one of
> the lists have this address: datahistorie at mailman.efn.no
> 
> and I have this entry for the list in .listadmin.ini :
> 
> username thomas at efn.no
> spamlevel 5
> default discard
> password ......
> adminurl http://{domain}/mailman/admin/{list}
> datahistorie at mailman.efn.no
> 
> Is the adminurl syntax correct?


I don't know. However, http://mailman.efn.no/mailman/admin gets to the
right place, so the form at least seems OK. As far as the actual syntax
is concerned, listadmin is a Debian package. It is not part of GNU
Mailman. Therefore, you might do better pursuing this via a Debian
support resource.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Wed Apr 15 11:14:55 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 19:14:55 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look	like?
In-Reply-To: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <196BCC41-1952-4BF2-B884-B5402BE3E517@nuw.org.au>

Here's another one - some way to flag a held message to warn moderators that its content is being discussed among moderators. It would be good if it was impossible to approve a flagged message until the flag was removed, to avoid accidental release. 

I don't think there needs to be any security on removing the flag - it's only to prevent accidents.

It's happened several times on our list that one moderator has emailed the rest of us about a message, while simultaneously another moderator has approved it.

Peter Shute

Sent from my iPad

> On 3 Apr 2015, at 6:48 am, Andrew Stuart <andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au> wrote:
> 
> 
> What?s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface?
> 
> If you can provide links to show where your ideas are done well that would help to illustrate your thoughts.
> 
> Any killer features that you?d like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface?
> 
> as
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%40nuw.org.au

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Wed Apr 15 18:41:17 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 12:41:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not
 top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In-Reply-To: <1428590997.16166.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1428590997.16166.YahooMailBasic@web122503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <552E94AD.5000702@libertytrek.org>

JB...

It makes 10,000% more sense than doing what you just did (untrimmed
bottom posting).

Your response only serves to provide massive ammunition for those
arguing *against* bottom (inline/interleaved) posting.

Charles

On 4/9/2015 10:49 AM, JB <jebva at yahoo.com.dmarc.invalid> wrote:
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 4/9/15, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
>  Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
>  To: mailman-users at python.org
>  Date: Thursday, April 9, 2015, 9:46 AM
>  
>  On 04/09/2015 12:25 AM,
>  Danil Smirnov wrote:
>  > The solutions is
>  quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to
>  > the very whole message or thread (like
>  this).
>  > It will save your time and would
>  annoy nobody.
>  
>  
>  Except those who receive digests or prefer to
>  read the archives or
>  actually need the
>  quoted context to understand what you're talking
>  about.
>  
>  -- 
>  Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> 
>        The highway is for gamblers,
>  San
>  Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense -
>  B. Dylan
>  ------------------------------------------------------
>  Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>  https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>  Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>  Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>  Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>  Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com
>  
> 
> I do not like top posting.  With TP I have to read backwards through a conversation to understand what is going on.  Makes no sense at all.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/tanstaafl%40libertytrek.org
> 


From marco at stoecker-family.de  Fri Apr 17 00:15:05 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 00:15:05 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] =?utf-8?q?sync=5Fmembers?=
In-Reply-To: <55141756.9030203@msapiro.net>
References: <5513DB50.9050101@stoecker-family.de>
 <55141756.9030203@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <253c8ecd149689e6deb161ea6a6e442c@metaxa.loswebos.de>


On 03/26/2015 03:27 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Just provide the name along with the email address in the list you're
> syncing with. E.g.,

> John Doe <j.doe at example.com>


Hi Mark,
Thx for the answer. I just found the time to give it a try, but it seems 
that sync_members does only understand standard ascii. As I'm from 
Germany and the names, provided to the list members e-mail addresses, 
containing German "Umlaute" like ? or ?, the script seems to fail.
Is there a solution for that?

BR
Marco

From farokh at mcfsoftware.com  Fri Apr 17 12:40:01 2015
From: farokh at mcfsoftware.com (Farokh Irani)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 06:40:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 3.0 testing...
In-Reply-To: <55270CFC.3080308@mcfsoftware.com>
References: <55270CFC.3080308@mcfsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <5530E301.2020008@mcfsoftware.com>

Hi everyone.

I posted the message below a while back, but never saw a reply. Did I 
miss it?

Thanks.

Farokh
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCF Software...simply dependably engineered
For all your computer and networking needs including hosting solutions
for every need.
Phone: 845-735-0210
Cell: 914-262-1594



> Farokh Irani <mailto:farokh at mcfsoftware.com>
> April 9, 2015 at 19:36
> If I set up a machine to test 3.0, will I be able to simply install 
> the official 3.0 release over it, or should I plan on doing a 
> completely clean install?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Farokh
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>
> MCF Software...simply dependably engineered
> For all your computer and networking needs including hosting solutions
> for every need.
> Phone: 845-735-0210
> Cell: 914-262-1594
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/farokh%40mcfsoftware.com 
>

From tom.browder at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 15:58:52 2015
From: tom.browder at gmail.com (Tom Browder)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 08:58:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 3.0 testing...
In-Reply-To: <5530E301.2020008@mcfsoftware.com>
References: <55270CFC.3080308@mcfsoftware.com>
 <5530E301.2020008@mcfsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <CAFMGiz-ApYYCqkk_YeOLzdnorT3zjamfkj-4GB22_JLy-S2K+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 5:40 AM, Farokh Irani <farokh at mcfsoftware.com>
wrote:
> Hi everyone.
>
> I posted the message below a while back, but never saw a reply. Did I miss
> it?
?
?
>> Farokh Irani <mailto:farokh at mcfsoftware.com>
>> April 9, 2015 at 19:36
>>
>> If I set up a machine to test 3.0, will I be able to simply install the
>> official 3.0 release over it, or should I plan on doing a completely
clean
>> install??

?Probably have better luck with dev list for MM 3.

Best,

-Tom?

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr 17 16:57:44 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 07:57:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_members
In-Reply-To: <253c8ecd149689e6deb161ea6a6e442c@metaxa.loswebos.de>
References: <5513DB50.9050101@stoecker-family.de>
 <55141756.9030203@msapiro.net>
 <253c8ecd149689e6deb161ea6a6e442c@metaxa.loswebos.de>
Message-ID: <55311F68.3030104@msapiro.net>

On 04/16/2015 03:15 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> ... it seems
> that sync_members does only understand standard ascii. As I'm from
> Germany and the names, provided to the list members e-mail addresses,
> containing German "Umlaute" like ? or ?, the script seems to fail.
> Is there a solution for that?


How does it fail? Does it throw an exception? If so, please provide a
traceback. If not, what does it do?

What is the list's preferred_language?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 14:59:33 2015
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 15:59:33 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Downgrade from 2.2.0a2 -> 2.1.20
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WMQCAAPL7HsVTcUsDXVDbfsXEaxCPhUaKPmYeD95w3eTA@mail.gmail.com>

I am trying the above and I end up at:

<cut>
Downgrade detected, from version 0x20200a0 to version 0x20114f0
This is probably not safe.
Exiting.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/home/wash/Tools/Mailman/2.1.20/mailman-2.1.20
</cut>

I hope there is a way around this?


-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
"I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler."

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr 18 18:21:19 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 09:21:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Downgrade from 2.2.0a2 -> 2.1.20
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WMQCAAPL7HsVTcUsDXVDbfsXEaxCPhUaKPmYeD95w3eTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAdA2WMQCAAPL7HsVTcUsDXVDbfsXEaxCPhUaKPmYeD95w3eTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5532847F.8040900@msapiro.net>

On 04/18/2015 05:59 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> I am trying the above and I end up at:
> 
> <cut>
> Downgrade detected, from version 0x20200a0 to version 0x20114f0
> This is probably not safe.
> Exiting.
> *** Error code 1
> 
> Stop in /usr/home/wash/Tools/Mailman/2.1.20/mailman-2.1.20
> </cut>
> 
> I hope there is a way around this?


Two ways.

1) In the install directory, run 'bin/update --force' which will force
the update which is the only thing 'make install' didn't do.

2) Edit the file last_mailman_version in Mailman's data/ directory.
Change 0x20200a0 to 0x20113f0 (or actually anything less than 0x20114f0)
and rerun 'make install'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 20:14:09 2015
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 21:14:09 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Downgrade from 2.2.0a2 -> 2.1.20
In-Reply-To: <5532847F.8040900@msapiro.net>
References: <CAAdA2WMQCAAPL7HsVTcUsDXVDbfsXEaxCPhUaKPmYeD95w3eTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5532847F.8040900@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WOFpQL35TGeaSX9grY1hc-NOXTUPxq4BQ0+pufQaJzxeA@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 April 2015 at 19:21, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 04/18/2015 05:59 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> > I am trying the above and I end up at:
> >
> > <cut>
> > Downgrade detected, from version 0x20200a0 to version 0x20114f0
> > This is probably not safe.
> > Exiting.
> > *** Error code 1
> >
> > Stop in /usr/home/wash/Tools/Mailman/2.1.20/mailman-2.1.20
> > </cut>
> >
> > I hope there is a way around this?
>
>
> Two ways.
>
> 1) In the install directory, run 'bin/update --force' which will force
> the update which is the only thing 'make install' didn't do.
>
> 2) Edit the file last_mailman_version in Mailman's data/ directory.
> Change 0x20200a0 to 0x20113f0 (or actually anything less than 0x20114f0)
> and rerun 'make install'.
>
>
Thank you.

That worked!



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
"I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler."

From ournet.biz at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 20:51:55 2015
From: ournet.biz at gmail.com (EyeLand)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 21:51:55 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Port is closed
Message-ID: <CAOVpyhmdK7axPWThKXqWx23A=puf8THD_1BR_WoN_9qi8t8t1w@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, on VPS port 80 is closed and I can not open control panel mailman,
how open port, can you consult? Thank you.

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 21:38:49 2015
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 22:38:49 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Port is closed
In-Reply-To: <CAOVpyhmdK7axPWThKXqWx23A=puf8THD_1BR_WoN_9qi8t8t1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOVpyhmdK7axPWThKXqWx23A=puf8THD_1BR_WoN_9qi8t8t1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WMrHW0QsvfmT_WcwC4DXk0=_40eAW5wbH4t-0PNvR3Low@mail.gmail.com>

Look at your firewall settings. VPS have webUI to manage firewall or just
ask your VPS provider's tech support to sort you out.

On 18 April 2015 at 21:51, EyeLand <ournet.biz at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello, on VPS port 80 is closed and I can not open control panel mailman,
> how open port, can you consult? Thank you.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/odhiambo%40gmail.com
>



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
"I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler."

From ournet.biz at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 22:33:20 2015
From: ournet.biz at gmail.com (EyeLand)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 23:33:20 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Port is closed
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WMrHW0QsvfmT_WcwC4DXk0=_40eAW5wbH4t-0PNvR3Low@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOVpyhmdK7axPWThKXqWx23A=puf8THD_1BR_WoN_9qi8t8t1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAdA2WMrHW0QsvfmT_WcwC4DXk0=_40eAW5wbH4t-0PNvR3Low@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOVpyhnXDFOkzBydFiHc0VknXavV4gF8PRKGpL+-CLsz4LbsJQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have on VPS webmin, on Linux Firewall I see next settings

http://i11.pixs.ru:/storage/1/2/8/067png_4203383_17000128.png
http://i11.pixs.ru:/storage/1/2/9/069png_2972056_17000129.png

there I need make changes?

2015-04-18 22:38 GMT+03:00 Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo at gmail.com>:

> Look at your firewall settings. VPS have webUI to manage firewall or just
> ask your VPS provider's tech support to sort you out.
>
> On 18 April 2015 at 21:51, EyeLand <ournet.biz at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello, on VPS port 80 is closed and I can not open control panel mailman,
>> how open port, can you consult? Thank you.
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>> Searchable Archives:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/odhiambo%40gmail.com
>>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
> Nairobi,KE
> +254733744121/+254722743223
> "I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler."
>

From matthieu at berjon.net  Sun Apr 19 11:30:37 2015
From: matthieu at berjon.net (Matthieu Berjon)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 11:30:37 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issue with postfix-to-mailman.py (Command died with
	status 127)
Message-ID: <553375BD.3020201@berjon.net>

Hello to all,

I met an issue in trying to set up Mailman. Here is the error message I 
get from postfix:

	Command died with status 127:
     		"/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py". Command
		output: env: python: No such file or directory


I have a working postfix server running (at least, that's what I believe 
as emails for user account works). When I sent a message a message to 
the list, postfix seems to manage correctly the email and doesn't 
complain about it.

My guess is that I probably missed something obvious or didn't 
understand something in the configuration.

What I'm using:

- FreeBSD 10.1-RELEASE-p6
- Postfix 2.11.4,1
- Mailman 2.1.20

Here some outputs that maybe would help.

postconf -n

alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/aliases, hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases
command_directory = /usr/local/sbin
config_directory = /usr/local/etc/postfix
daemon_directory = /usr/local/libexec/postfix
data_directory = /var/db/postfix
debug_peer_level = 2
debugger_command = PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin ddd 
$daemon_directory/$process_name $process_id & sleep 5
home_mailbox = Maildir/
html_directory = /usr/local/share/doc/postfix
inet_protocols = ipv4
mail_owner = postfix
mailman_destination_recipient_limit = 1
mailq_path = /usr/local/bin/mailq
manpage_directory = /usr/local/man
mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain, localhost, $mydomain
mydomain = earswideopen.net
myhostname = smtp.earswideopen.net
mynetworks_style = host
myorigin = $mydomain
newaliases_path = /usr/local/bin/newaliases
queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
readme_directory = /usr/local/share/doc/postfix
recipient_delimiter = +
relay_domains = lists.earswideopen.net
sample_directory = /usr/local/etc/postfix
sendmail_path = /usr/local/sbin/sendmail
setgid_group = maildrop
smtpd_banner = $myhostname ESMTP $mail_name
soft_bounce = no
transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
unknown_local_recipient_reject_code = 550

/etc/postfix/master.cf

smtp      inet  n       -       n       -       -       smtpd
mailman   unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
   flags=FR user=mailman:mailman 
argv=/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py
   ${nexthop} ${user}

/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py

# Configuration variables - Change these for your site if necessary.
MailmanHome = "/usr/local/mailman"; # Mailman home directory.
MailmanOwner = "postmaster at earswideopen.net"; # Postmaster and abuse 
mail recipient.

By the way, this file belongs to mailman:mailman


I'm quite lost on this error and didn't find any information about this 
kind of issue lately. If someone has some ideas, that would be much 
appreciated. If I forgot to mention something or if you need any more 
clarification, please ask, I will be more than happy to help.

Have a great Sunday,

--
Matt

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Apr 19 17:12:00 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 08:12:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Port is closed
In-Reply-To: <CAOVpyhmiAxEYd6M77jBwf9jwgnr7_wWwa8iuxgL9hbQ1Qtz4Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOVpyhmdK7axPWThKXqWx23A=puf8THD_1BR_WoN_9qi8t8t1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5532C414.5040806@msapiro.net>
 <CAOVpyhmiAxEYd6M77jBwf9jwgnr7_wWwa8iuxgL9hbQ1Qtz4Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5533C5C0.5030505@msapiro.net>

On 04/19/2015 02:23 AM, EyeLand wrote:
> control panel mailman http://vps1.ournet.biz/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/mailman


It works for me. What is your issue? That URL works and returns
Mailman's admin login page in Russian.

If you are still having a problem, the issue is either your particular
IP is being blocked by the server or it is somewhere in the route from
you to the server.


> root at vps1:~# netstat -L -n -t
> netstat: invalid option -- 'L'


Sorry, that should have been

 netstat -l -n -t

but that is no longer relevant as we have already determined that the
server is listening.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From bsfinkel at att.net  Sun Apr 19 17:12:10 2015
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 10:12:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issue with postfix-to-mailman.py (Command died
 with status 127)
In-Reply-To: <553375BD.3020201@berjon.net>
References: <553375BD.3020201@berjon.net>
Message-ID: <5533C5CA.50206@att.net>

On 4/19/2015 4:30 AM, Matthieu Berjon wrote:
> Hello to all,
>
> I met an issue in trying to set up Mailman. Here is the error message I
> get from postfix:
>
>      Command died with status 127:
>              "/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py". Command
>          output: env: python: No such file or directory
>
>
> I have a working postfix server running (at least, that's what I believe
> as emails for user account works). When I sent a message a message to
> the list, postfix seems to manage correctly the email and doesn't
> complain about it.
>
> My guess is that I probably missed something obvious or didn't
> understand something in the configuration.
>
> What I'm using:
>
> - FreeBSD 10.1-RELEASE-p6
> - Postfix 2.11.4,1
> - Mailman 2.1.20
>
> Here some outputs that maybe would help.
>
> postconf -n
>
> alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/aliases,
> hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases
> command_directory = /usr/local/sbin
> config_directory = /usr/local/etc/postfix
> daemon_directory = /usr/local/libexec/postfix
> data_directory = /var/db/postfix
> debug_peer_level = 2
> debugger_command = PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin ddd
> $daemon_directory/$process_name $process_id & sleep 5
> home_mailbox = Maildir/
> html_directory = /usr/local/share/doc/postfix
> inet_protocols = ipv4
> mail_owner = postfix
> mailman_destination_recipient_limit = 1
> mailq_path = /usr/local/bin/mailq
> manpage_directory = /usr/local/man
> mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain, localhost, $mydomain
> mydomain = earswideopen.net
> myhostname = smtp.earswideopen.net
> mynetworks_style = host
> myorigin = $mydomain
> newaliases_path = /usr/local/bin/newaliases
> queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
> readme_directory = /usr/local/share/doc/postfix
> recipient_delimiter = +
> relay_domains = lists.earswideopen.net
> sample_directory = /usr/local/etc/postfix
> sendmail_path = /usr/local/sbin/sendmail
> setgid_group = maildrop
> smtpd_banner = $myhostname ESMTP $mail_name
> soft_bounce = no
> transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
> unknown_local_recipient_reject_code = 550
>
> /etc/postfix/master.cf
>
> smtp      inet  n       -       n       -       -       smtpd
> mailman   unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
>    flags=FR user=mailman:mailman
> argv=/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py
>    ${nexthop} ${user}
>
> /usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py
>
> # Configuration variables - Change these for your site if necessary.
> MailmanHome = "/usr/local/mailman"; # Mailman home directory.
> MailmanOwner = "postmaster at earswideopen.net"; # Postmaster and abuse
> mail recipient.
>
> By the way, this file belongs to mailman:mailman
>
>
> I'm quite lost on this error and didn't find any information about this
> kind of issue lately. If someone has some ideas, that would be much
> appreciated. If I forgot to mention something or if you need any more
> clarification, please ask, I will be more than happy to help.
>
> Have a great Sunday,
>
> --
> Matt

Look at

 
http://wiki.list.org/DOC/How%20do%20I%20configure%20postfix_to_mailman.py%3F

That postfix_to_mailman module is not part of the SourceForge
Mailman; it has been added by Debian (and Ubuntu) as part of their
Mailman package.  The basic response that you will get from subscribers
to this list is that this module should not be used.  I have not looked
at the module code, so I have no idea what "problem" it was written to
solve.

As a related side issue - When I was managing a Mailman system on
an Ubuntu server, I researched the patches in the Ubuntu package.
Many were not documented, and I could find nothing about the problem(s)
they were written to solve.  And one patch removes a library that is
sometimes needed.   I decided at that time that it was better for me to
create my own Ubuntu package from the SourceForge source and install
that.  If I had a problem, I could post it on this list and get
expert advice.

--Barry Finkel




From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Apr 19 17:27:42 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 08:27:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issue with postfix-to-mailman.py (Command died
 with status 127)
In-Reply-To: <553375BD.3020201@berjon.net>
References: <553375BD.3020201@berjon.net>
Message-ID: <5533C96E.6020706@msapiro.net>

On 04/19/2015 02:30 AM, Matthieu Berjon wrote:
> Hello to all,
> 
> I met an issue in trying to set up Mailman. Here is the error message I
> get from postfix:
> 
>     Command died with status 127:
>             "/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py". Command
>         output: env: python: No such file or directory
...
> /usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py
> 
> # Configuration variables - Change these for your site if necessary.
> MailmanHome = "/usr/local/mailman"; # Mailman home directory.
> MailmanOwner = "postmaster at earswideopen.net"; # Postmaster and abuse
> mail recipient.


Is the above missing something? I suspect the above is actually preceded
by something like

#! /usr/bin/env python

and env is complaining that it can't find 'python' because there is no
'python' in $PATH (i.e. Postfix's search path).

Also, please read <http://wiki.list.org/x/15564817> and the things
linked from the last paragraph thereof.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lac at openend.se  Sun Apr 19 17:44:18 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 17:44:18 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issue with postfix-to-mailman.py (Command died
	with status 127)
In-Reply-To: Message from "Barry S. Finkel" <bsfinkel@att.net>
 of "Sun, 19 Apr 2015 10:12:10 -0500." <5533C5CA.50206@att.net>
References: <553375BD.3020201@berjon.net><5533C5CA.50206@att.net>
Message-ID: <201504191544.t3JFiIFi005058@fido.openend.se>

>On 4/19/2015 4:30 AM, Matthieu Berjon wrote:
>> Hello to all,
>>
>> I met an issue in trying to set up Mailman. Here is the error message I
>> get from postfix:
>>
>>      Command died with status 127:
>>              "/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py". Command
>>          output: env: python: No such file or directory
>>
>>
>> I have a working postfix server running (at least, that's what I believe
>> as emails for user account works). When I sent a message a message to
>> the list, postfix seems to manage correctly the email and doesn't
>> complain about it.

Your problem is that env is complaining that it cannot find python.

Therefore I would conclude that there is no python in Postfix's search
path.

Laura Creighton

From matthieu at berjon.net  Sun Apr 19 18:01:17 2015
From: matthieu at berjon.net (Matthieu Berjon)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 18:01:17 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issue with postfix-to-mailman.py (Command died
 with status 127)
In-Reply-To: <5533C96E.6020706@msapiro.net>
References: <553375BD.3020201@berjon.net> <5533C96E.6020706@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5533D14D.8060301@berjon.net>


On 04/19/2015 05:27 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 04/19/2015 02:30 AM, Matthieu Berjon wrote:
>> Hello to all,
>>
>> I met an issue in trying to set up Mailman. Here is the error message I
>> get from postfix:
>>
>>      Command died with status 127:
>>              "/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py". Command
>>          output: env: python: No such file or directory
> ...
>> /usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py
>>
>> # Configuration variables - Change these for your site if necessary.
>> MailmanHome = "/usr/local/mailman"; # Mailman home directory.
>> MailmanOwner = "postmaster at earswideopen.net"; # Postmaster and abuse
>> mail recipient.
>
>
> Is the above missing something? I suspect the above is actually preceded
> by something like
>
> #! /usr/bin/env python
>
> and env is complaining that it can't find 'python' because there is no
> 'python' in $PATH (i.e. Postfix's search path).
>
> Also, please read <http://wiki.list.org/x/15564817> and the things
> linked from the last paragraph thereof.

Thanks a lot to all of you. You let me to understand that 
postfix-to-mailman.py was unecessary and not part of inital project. I 
removed it from the equation, updated the postfix configuration and it 
worked like a charm.

Many thanks to all of you :)

Have a good evening,
-- 
Matthieu Berjon

From lac at openend.se  Sun Apr 19 18:08:03 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 18:08:03 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issue with postfix-to-mailman.py (Command died
	with status 127)
In-Reply-To: Message from Matthieu Berjon <matthieu@berjon.net>
 of "Sun, 19 Apr 2015 18:01:17 +0200." <5533D14D.8060301@berjon.net>
References: <553375BD.3020201@berjon.net>
 <5533C96E.6020706@msapiro.net><5533D14D.8060301@berjon.net>
Message-ID: <201504191608.t3JG83Wd006196@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Sun, 19 Apr 2015 18:01:17 +0200, Matthieu Berjon writes:
>
>
>On 04/19/2015 05:27 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 04/19/2015 02:30 AM, Matthieu Berjon wrote:
>>> Hello to all,
>>>
>>> I met an issue in trying to set up Mailman. Here is the error message I
>>> get from postfix:
>>>
>>>      Command died with status 127:
>>>              "/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py". Command
>>>          output: env: python: No such file or directory
>> ...
>>> /usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py
>>>
>>> # Configuration variables - Change these for your site if necessary.
>>> MailmanHome = "/usr/local/mailman"; # Mailman home directory.
>>> MailmanOwner = "postmaster at earswideopen.net"; # Postmaster and abuse
>>> mail recipient.
>>
>>
>> Is the above missing something? I suspect the above is actually preceded
>> by something like
>>
>> #! /usr/bin/env python
>>
>> and env is complaining that it can't find 'python' because there is no
>> 'python' in $PATH (i.e. Postfix's search path).
>>
>> Also, please read <http://wiki.list.org/x/15564817> and the things
>> linked from the last paragraph thereof.
>
>Thanks a lot to all of you. You let me to understand that 
>postfix-to-mailman.py was unecessary and not part of inital project. I 
>removed it from the equation, updated the postfix configuration and it 
>worked like a charm.
>
>Many thanks to all of you :)
>
>Have a good evening,
>-- 
>Matthieu Berjon

Very happy to help.  Thank you for letting us know that things worked.

Laura Creighton


From chenxlbr at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 10:05:23 2015
From: chenxlbr at gmail.com (KevinChen)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 16:05:23 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] User doesn't exist
Message-ID: <8B891DC17F7845808A2EC01716966EE2@gmail.com>

HI?all:  
       I installed the mailman on a debian x32 VPS.My MTA is postfix.The mailman running is successful. So, i create a list name is mailman. This is list has two members. When i send mail to this list, i got an error.

Apr 20 07:55:27 xapz-server postfix/lmtp[16950]: CA079822E6: to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post mainman at xapz.cn>, orig_to=<mainman at xapz.cn>, relay=mail.xapz.cn[private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=1.1, delays=1.1/0.01/0/0.01, dsn=5.1.1, status=bounced (host mail.xapz.cn[private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550 5.1.1 <|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post mainman at xapz.cn> User doesn't exist: |/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post mainman at xapz.cn (in reply to RCPT TO command))

mailman has two arguments post and mailman at xapz.cn, Did the list name without that domain?And how to resolve this problem?

Thanks   

--  
KevinChen
Sent with Sparrow (http://www.sparrowmailapp.com/?sig)


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 21 04:42:44 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 19:42:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] User doesn't exist
In-Reply-To: <8B891DC17F7845808A2EC01716966EE2@gmail.com>
References: <8B891DC17F7845808A2EC01716966EE2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5535B924.6060505@msapiro.net>

On 04/20/2015 01:05 AM, KevinChen wrote:
> HI?all: I installed the mailman on a debian x32 VPS.My MTA is
> postfix.The mailman running is successful. So, i create a list name
> is mailman. This is list has two members. When i send mail to this
> list, i got an error.
> 
> Apr 20 07:55:27 xapz-server postfix/lmtp[16950]: CA079822E6:
> to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post mainman at xapz.cn>,
> orig_to=<mainman at xapz.cn>, relay=mail.xapz.cn[private/dovecot-lmtp],
> delay=1.1, delays=1.1/0.01/0/0.01, dsn=5.1.1, status=bounced (host
> mail.xapz.cn[private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550 5.1.1
> <|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post mainman at xapz.cn> User doesn't
> exist: |/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post mainman at xapz.cn (in reply
> to RCPT TO command))
> 
> mailman has two arguments post and mailman at xapz.cn, Did the list name
> without that domain?And how to resolve this problem?


Somehow Postfix is processing your Mailman aliases through
relay=mail.xapz.cn[private/dovecot-lmtp] which doesn't understand the
alias is a pipe.

There are various issues here: This looks like a Mailman 2.1.x alias
although these aliases normally do not have the domain as part of the
listname. I.e the alias would normally be

mailman:    "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post mailman"

i.e. the listname in the command arg would be just 'mailman', not
'mainman' and not 'mainman at xapz.cn', but this is not the first problem
here. If it were the only problem, the message would have been piped to
the /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman wrapper which then would have
complained about the list name.

The underlying issue here is a Postfix configuration issue. This list is
not the primary support resource for either Postfix or Debian's Mailman
package, but we will try to help if we can. In order to help further, we
need to see at least the output from 'postconf -n'.

Also, you should see these FAQs: <http://wiki.list.org/x/12812344> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/10715238>. The latter may be helpful in an
environment where Dovecot is the normal LDA.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From billc_lists at greenbuilder.com  Tue Apr 21 07:21:25 2015
From: billc_lists at greenbuilder.com (Bill Christensen)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 00:21:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
Message-ID: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I recently updated and my digests stopped going out (I was able to push out
the waiting digest manually by doing
/opt/local/share/mailman/cron/senddigests so I know the function is
working).  My old notes tell me the command for cron is:

sudo /opt/local/share/mailman/cron/crontab -u mailman crontab.in

I also tried

sudo /opt/local/share/mailman/cron -u mailman crontab.in

since that appears to be the current location of crontab.in

but that's getting me 'command not found' and

      cron: illegal option -- u

     usage: cron [-s] [-o] [-x debugflag[,...]]

     debugflags: ext sch proc pars load misc test bit

Any ideas on this?

From igoetrich at yahoo.de  Tue Apr 21 10:07:54 2015
From: igoetrich at yahoo.de (E Kogler)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 08:07:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2034217482.1377299.1429603674282.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

>Hi all,

> I recently updated and my digests stopped going out (I was able to push out
> the waiting digest manually by doing
> /opt/local/share/mailman/cron/senddigests so I know the function is
> working).? My old notes tell me the command for cron is:

> sudo /opt/local/share/mailman/cron/crontab -u mailman crontab.in

Maybe "sudo /usr/bin/crontab -u mailman /opt/local/share/mailman/crontab.in" ?


[...]

  

From danil at smirnov.la  Tue Apr 21 10:56:48 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 11:56:48 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>

Check if you already have /etc/cron.d/mailman, if not just

cp /opt/local/share/mailman/cron/crontab.in /etc/cron.d/mailman

with sufficient rights.

2015-04-21 8:21 GMT+03:00 Bill Christensen <billc_lists at greenbuilder.com>:
> Hi all,
>
> I recently updated and my digests stopped going out (I was able to push out
> the waiting digest manually by doing
> /opt/local/share/mailman/cron/senddigests so I know the function is
> working).  My old notes tell me the command for cron is:
>
> sudo /opt/local/share/mailman/cron/crontab -u mailman crontab.in
>
> I also tried
>
> sudo /opt/local/share/mailman/cron -u mailman crontab.in
>
> since that appears to be the current location of crontab.in
>
> but that's getting me 'command not found' and
>
>       cron: illegal option -- u
>
>      usage: cron [-s] [-o] [-x debugflag[,...]]
>
>      debugflags: ext sch proc pars load misc test bit
>
> Any ideas on this?

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Tue Apr 21 15:59:44 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:59:44 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_members
In-Reply-To: <55311F68.3030104@msapiro.net>
References: <5513DB50.9050101@stoecker-family.de>
 <55141756.9030203@msapiro.net>
 <253c8ecd149689e6deb161ea6a6e442c@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <55311F68.3030104@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <553657D0.8070400@stoecker-family.de>

On 04/17/2015 04:57 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> How does it fail? Does it throw an exception? If so, please provide a
> traceback. If not, what does it do?
> 
> What is the list's preferred_language?
> 

Hi Mark

late answer, my laptop crashed.

the default language for this list is German:
preferred_language = 'de'

indeed it throws an exception:

user at machine:~# ./mailinglist_sync.sh
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/sbin/sync_members", line 288, in <module>
    main()
  File "/usr/sbin/sync_members", line 259, in main
    s = email.Utils.formataddr((name, addr)).encode(enc, 'replace')
UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xf6 in position 8:
ordinal not in range(128)

any glue?

BR
Marco

From fmouse at fmp.com  Tue Apr 21 16:24:02 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 09:24:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

Your old notes are incorrect.  First, the proper command on modern Unix
or Unix-ish systems such as Linux is simply:

sudo crontab -e -u mailman

Copy and paste the crontab provided with Mailman in the ~mailman/cron
directory into the edit window opened by this command.

The crontab provided with Mailman in ~mailman/cron/crontab.in is not in
the proper format for use in /etc/cron.d/ so a direct copy of the
Mailman crontab to this directory can't be done without modifying the
file.  The directory /etc/cron.d/ is Debian-specific (which includes
Debian derivatives such as Ubuntu and Mint) and a direct copy to cron's
spool directory, /var/spool/cron/, is advised against in the cron man
page.  It's best to go through the UI provided by crontab and use your
CLI editor (vim, pico, emacs or whatever) to manage the crontab.

See the man page for cron(8) and crontab(1)

On Tue, 2015-04-21 at 11:56 +0300, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> Check if you already have /etc/cron.d/mailman, if not just
> 
> cp /opt/local/share/mailman/cron/crontab.in /etc/cron.d/mailman
> 
> with sufficient rights.
> 
> 2015-04-21 8:21 GMT+03:00 Bill Christensen <billc_lists at greenbuilder.com>:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I recently updated and my digests stopped going out (I was able to push out
> > the waiting digest manually by doing
> > /opt/local/share/mailman/cron/senddigests so I know the function is
> > working).  My old notes tell me the command for cron is:
> >
> > sudo /opt/local/share/mailman/cron/crontab -u mailman crontab.in
> >
> > I also tried
> >
> > sudo /opt/local/share/mailman/cron -u mailman crontab.in
> >
> > since that appears to be the current location of crontab.in
> >
> > but that's getting me 'command not found' and
> >
> >       cron: illegal option -- u
> >
> >      usage: cron [-s] [-o] [-x debugflag[,...]]
> >
> >      debugflags: ext sch proc pars load misc test bit
> >
> > Any ideas on this?
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse%40fmp.com

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From danil at smirnov.la  Tue Apr 21 16:43:30 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 17:43:30 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>

2015-04-21 17:24 GMT+03:00 Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com>:
> The crontab provided with Mailman in ~mailman/cron/crontab.in is not in
> the proper format for use in /etc/cron.d/ so a direct copy of the
> Mailman crontab to this directory can't be done without modifying the
> file.

I have absolutely identical files
/etc/cron.d/mailman
and
/(var|usr)/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in
on my Centos 6.6 and Centos 7 boxes.

And I never see that Mailman cron commands were installed directly
in the 'mailman' user crontab on my servers. Everytime it was through
/etc/cron.d.

Danil

From danil at smirnov.la  Tue Apr 21 17:46:08 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 18:46:08 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>

2015-04-21 17:43 GMT+03:00 Danil Smirnov <danil at smirnov.la>:
> 2015-04-21 17:24 GMT+03:00 Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com>:
>> so a direct copy of the
>> Mailman crontab to this directory can't be done without modifying the
>> file.

You are right but not because of improper format of crontab.in file:

# This file is copied to /etc/cron.d/mailman from
# /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in when the mailman service is started via its
# init.d script and the file /etc/cron.d/mailman is removed when the
# service is stopped.  Therefore any edits made directly to
# /etc/cron.d/mailman will be lost anytime the mailman service
# restarts.
#
# To make changes edit the master copy /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in and then
# restart the service to pick up the changes (/sbin/service mailman restart).
#
# The reason this is done this way is because the mailman cron jobs
# should only be invoked if the mailman service is enabled and not
# just as a consequence of installing the rpm as was the case
# previously. The file /etc/cron.d/mailman cannot simply be linked to
# the master copy in /usr/lib/mailman/cron because for security reasons cron
# will not process crontab files that are links or writeable by
# anybody else but root, thus the file must be copied into /etc/cron.d
# with the right ownership and permissions.

Danil

From fmouse at fmp.com  Tue Apr 21 18:11:21 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 11:11:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1429632681.3786.62.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2015-04-21 at 18:46 +0300, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 2015-04-21 17:43 GMT+03:00 Danil Smirnov <danil at smirnov.la>:
> > 2015-04-21 17:24 GMT+03:00 Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com>:
> >> so a direct copy of the
> >> Mailman crontab to this directory can't be done without modifying the
> >> file.
> 
> You are right but not because of improper format of crontab.in file:

Files in /etc/cron.d/ require an additional field, the user account to
which the crontab file belongs.  From the man page for cron(8) for
Ubuntu:

        Additionally,  in  Debian,  cron reads the files in
        the /etc/cron.d
        directory.  cron treats the files in /etc/cron.d as in the same
        way
        as  the  /etc/crontab  file (they follow the special format of
        that
        file, i.e. they include the user field).
        
Records in mailman.in don't have the user field, e.g.

        27 3 * * * /usr/bin/python
        -S /usr/lib64/mailman/cron/nightly_gzip

It could be manually added, but the best way to incorporate the Mailman
crontab is to pull it into the crontab editor (crontab -e), which will
put them in the cron spool directory.

"Improper" is perhaps to strong a word.  "Incorrect" might have been a
better choice.

> 
> # This file is copied to /etc/cron.d/mailman from
> # /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in when the mailman service is started via its
> # init.d script and the file /etc/cron.d/mailman is removed when the
> # service is stopped.  Therefore any edits made directly to
> # /etc/cron.d/mailman will be lost anytime the mailman service
> # restarts.
> #
> # To make changes edit the master copy /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in and then
> # restart the service to pick up the changes (/sbin/service mailman restart).
> #
> # The reason this is done this way is because the mailman cron jobs
> # should only be invoked if the mailman service is enabled and not
> # just as a consequence of installing the rpm as was the case
> # previously. The file /etc/cron.d/mailman cannot simply be linked to
> # the master copy in /usr/lib/mailman/cron because for security reasons cron
> # will not process crontab files that are links or writeable by
> # anybody else but root, thus the file must be copied into /etc/cron.d
> # with the right ownership and permissions.
> 
> Danil
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse%40fmp.com

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 21 18:32:31 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 09:32:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55367B9F.8080207@msapiro.net>

This thread is getting too convoluted for me to parse, but here's the
complete story:

There are two possible places where Mailman's crontab can be installed.
For purposes of discussion, assume the Mailman user on your server is
'mailman'.

- The crontab can be a user crontab in /var/spool/cron/mailman or maybe
/var/spool/cron/crontabs/mailman. This can be installed by

sudo cp /path/to/mailman/cron/crontab.in /var/spool/cron/mailman

(or to /var/spool/cron/crontabs/mailman after verifying the place) or
better because you don't need to know the destination

sudo crontab -u mailman < /path/to/mailman/cron/crontab.in

- the crontab can be a system crontab in /etc/cron.d/. The file name is
not important but is usually 'mailman' for documentation reasons.
Because these crontabs do not have a user context, the format is
different. There is an additional field between the days/times and the
command which is the user under which to run the command. Mailman's
cron/crontab.in (as distributed by the GNU Mailman project) does not
have this field. Thus, if you were to install
/path/to/mailman/cron/crontab.in directly in say /etc/cron.d/mailman you
would need to edit it to change lines like

0 8 * * * /usr/bin/python -S /var/MM/21/cron/checkdbs

to

0 8 * * * mailman /usr/bin/python -S /var/MM/21/cron/checkdbs

The important thing is there should be only one of these two possible
crontabs. It doesn't really matter which, but if you have both, you'll
run all the crons twice which will result in duplicate emails being sent
to users and list owners.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Tue Apr 21 18:32:48 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 11:32:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1429633968.3786.75.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2015-04-21 at 18:46 +0300, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> # This file is copied to /etc/cron.d/mailman from
> # /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in when the mailman service is started via its
> # init.d script and the file /etc/cron.d/mailman is removed when the
> # service is stopped.  Therefore any edits made directly to
> # /etc/cron.d/mailman will be lost anytime the mailman service
> # restarts.

I think this needs to be revisited.  I don't believe Mailman does this
anymore.  Mark, does a bug need to be filed on this?

The documentation in the docs directory in the Mailman source which I
think is definitive, says to use the command, as root (or sudo root)
similar to the following, assuming mailman has an entry in /etc/passwd:

    crontab -u mailman ~mailman/cron/crontab.in

This will place the Mailman crontab in the crontab spool directory.

According to the cron(8) man page /etc/cron.d/ is a Debian-ism and may
or may not be supported on other Linux variants such as RH or on other
similar platforms such as BSD.

I mis-spoke about having to use an editor.  The crontab command accepts
a filename as an argument in lieu of the -e option and will install the
named file.  Sorry!

The bottom line is that it's best, as always, to install a component
such as a crontab using the supplied tools rather trying to second-guess
the tool set and copying files directly.
> 
-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From fmouse at fmp.com  Tue Apr 21 18:41:06 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 11:41:06 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1429634466.3786.80.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Tue, 2015-04-21 at 18:46 +0300, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> # This file is copied to /etc/cron.d/mailman from
> # /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in when the mailman service is started via its
> # init.d script and the file /etc/cron.d/mailman is removed when the
> # service is stopped.  Therefore any edits made directly to
> # /etc/cron.d/mailman will be lost anytime the mailman service
> # restarts.

This text isn't included in crontab.in in recent versions of Mailman.  I
think this is obsolete.  Did you find it somewhere else?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 21 18:47:12 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 09:47:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <1429633968.3786.75.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429633968.3786.75.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <55367F10.3040008@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2015 09:32 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> On Tue, 2015-04-21 at 18:46 +0300, Danil Smirnov wrote:
>> # This file is copied to /etc/cron.d/mailman from
>> # /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in when the mailman service is started via its
>> # init.d script and the file /etc/cron.d/mailman is removed when the
>> # service is stopped.  Therefore any edits made directly to
>> # /etc/cron.d/mailman will be lost anytime the mailman service
>> # restarts.
> 
> I think this needs to be revisited.  I don't believe Mailman does this
> anymore.  Mark, does a bug need to be filed on this?


This is a packager thing (RHEL/CentOS ?). Mailman as distributed by the
GNU Mailman project does not do this (never did). Our docs are
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node41.html> and recommend
installing our crontab as a user crontab with the crontab command.


...
> The bottom line is that it's best, as always, to install a component
> such as a crontab using the supplied tools rather trying to second-guess
> the tool set and copying files directly.

+1

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Tue Apr 21 18:42:01 2015
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 17:42:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <1429633968.3786.75.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429633968.3786.75.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <20150421164201.GF11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:32:48AM -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> The bottom line is that it's best, as always, to install a component
> such as a crontab using the supplied tools rather trying to second-guess
> the tool set and copying files directly.

This makes me wonder if it might be useful to have two files in the
Mailman source:

    mailman/cron/crontab.in-system
    mailman/cron/crontab.in-user

with -system including the 'user' column?

Were the 'offical' source for Mailman be GitHub, there'd be a PR
already, handling that.

-- 
"Youth cannot know how age thinks and feels. But old men
 are guilty if they forget what it was to be young"
    -- JK Rowling ('Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix')

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 21 19:03:51 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 10:03:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_members
In-Reply-To: <553657D0.8070400@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5513DB50.9050101@stoecker-family.de>
 <55141756.9030203@msapiro.net>
 <253c8ecd149689e6deb161ea6a6e442c@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <55311F68.3030104@msapiro.net> <553657D0.8070400@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <553682F7.8050400@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2015 06:59 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> indeed it throws an exception:
> 
> user at machine:~# ./mailinglist_sync.sh
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/sbin/sync_members", line 288, in <module>
>     main()
>   File "/usr/sbin/sync_members", line 259, in main
>     s = email.Utils.formataddr((name, addr)).encode(enc, 'replace')
> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xf6 in position 8:
> ordinal not in range(128)


This looks like <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1243343> which
was initially addressed in Mailman 2.1.17 and further fixed in 2.1.18.
Your's appears to be a pre 2.1.17 version. A patch is attached.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
=== modified file 'bin/sync_members'
--- bin/sync_members	2008-02-29 17:47:36 +0000
+++ bin/sync_members	2013-12-01 21:06:45 +0000
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 #! @PYTHON@
 #
-# Copyright (C) 1998-2003 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+# Copyright (C) 1998-2013 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
 #
 # This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
 # modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
@@ -256,6 +256,10 @@
             try:
                 if not dryrun:
                     mlist.ApprovedAddMember(userdesc, welcome, notifyadmin)
+                # Avoid UnicodeError if name can't be decoded
+                if isinstance(name, str):
+                    name = unicode(name, errors='replace')
+                name = name.encode(enc, 'replace')
                 s = email.Utils.formataddr((name, addr)).encode(enc, 'replace')
                 print _('Added  : %(s)s')
             except Errors.MMAlreadyAMember:
@@ -276,6 +280,10 @@
                     # reasons is in the database.  Use a lower level remove to
                     # get rid of this member's entry
                     mlist.removeMember(addr)
+            # Avoid UnicodeError if name can't be decoded
+            if isinstance(name, str):
+                name = unicode(name, errors='replace')
+            name = name.encode(enc, 'replace')
             s = email.Utils.formataddr((name, addr)).encode(enc, 'replace')
             print _('Removed: %(s)s')
 


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 21 19:16:48 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 10:16:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <20150421164201.GF11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429633968.3786.75.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <20150421164201.GF11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <55368600.9010604@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2015 09:42 AM, Adam McGreggor wrote:
> 
> This makes me wonder if it might be useful to have two files in the
> Mailman source:
> 
>     mailman/cron/crontab.in-system
>     mailman/cron/crontab.in-user
> 
> with -system including the 'user' column?


Why? Our distribution works when installed per our docs. Downstream
packages also tend to do the right thing. Problems tend to occur only
when users of packages try to follow our documentation rather that the
packager's.


> Were the 'offical' source for Mailman be GitHub, there'd be a PR
> already, handling that.


Just FYI and not addressing the issue of, PRs vs. branches vs. bzr merge
proposals, Mailman 3 will probably use GitLabs as it's official
repository. We're not there yet, but we recognize that Bazaar lost the war.

We can't use GitHub because GitHub uses proprietary software and as a
GNU project, we get into issues with FSF if our complete stack is not
open source.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Tue Apr 21 19:18:49 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 19:18:49 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_members
In-Reply-To: <553682F7.8050400@msapiro.net>
References: <5513DB50.9050101@stoecker-family.de>
 <55141756.9030203@msapiro.net>
 <253c8ecd149689e6deb161ea6a6e442c@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <55311F68.3030104@msapiro.net> <553657D0.8070400@stoecker-family.de>
 <553682F7.8050400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <6e6ffc5988d93c7bbb818f174249fa6f@metaxa.loswebos.de>

On 04/21/2015 07:03 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> This looks like <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1243343> which
> was initially addressed in Mailman 2.1.17 and further fixed in 2.1.18.
> Your's appears to be a pre 2.1.17 version. A patch is attached.

Hi Mark,
in fact I use Debian wheezy which provided Mailman 2.1.15.
I'll try your patch and I'll let you know ;-)
BR
Marco

From danil at smirnov.la  Tue Apr 21 19:37:30 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 20:37:30 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] packages vs sources (was: Cron command?)
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbqq+6H4R_bb6d7r+Ln3WzQsiR9uE7=O67nv+S3wZOEEjA@mail.gmail.com>

2015-04-21 19:47 GMT+03:00 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> This is a packager thing (RHEL/CentOS ?). Mailman as distributed by the
> GNU Mailman project does not do this (never did). Our docs are
> <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node41.html> and recommend
> installing our crontab as a user crontab with the crontab command.

...

>> The bottom line is that it's best, as always, to install a component
>> such as a crontab using the supplied tools rather trying to second-guess
>> the tool set and copying files directly.
>
> +1

Many people rely on their distribution packagers - is this bad?

I always prefer to use yum/apt-get instead of compiling software from source.
The reasons are obvious (all they are in any package system mission statement).

Mailman is one of the few exception of this rule on my servers because of
importance of its new versions and rare packages updates. :(
(It's shame that they include 2.1.15 in the new Centos7 distribution!)

But if we 'use supplied tools' and lost distribution integration - like
removing cron entries automatically when 'service mailman stop' -
does this make sense at all?

Danil

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Tue Apr 21 19:49:55 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 19:49:55 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_members
In-Reply-To: <553682F7.8050400@msapiro.net>
References: <5513DB50.9050101@stoecker-family.de>
 <55141756.9030203@msapiro.net>
 <253c8ecd149689e6deb161ea6a6e442c@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <55311F68.3030104@msapiro.net> <553657D0.8070400@stoecker-family.de>
 <553682F7.8050400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <9ed1c0f799342540549e853f182a4388@metaxa.loswebos.de>

On 04/21/2015 07:03 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> This looks like <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1243343> which
> was initially addressed in Mailman 2.1.17 and further fixed in 2.1.18.
> Your's appears to be a pre 2.1.17 version. A patch is attached.
> 

Thx Mark, works perfect now :-D
BR
Marco

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 21 20:23:53 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 11:23:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] packages vs sources (was: Cron command?)
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbqq+6H4R_bb6d7r+Ln3WzQsiR9uE7=O67nv+S3wZOEEjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbqq+6H4R_bb6d7r+Ln3WzQsiR9uE7=O67nv+S3wZOEEjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <553695B9.9040408@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2015 10:37 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 
> Many people rely on their distribution packagers - is this bad?
> 
> I always prefer to use yum/apt-get instead of compiling software from source.
> The reasons are obvious (all they are in any package system mission statement).
> 
> Mailman is one of the few exception of this rule on my servers because of
> importance of its new versions and rare packages updates. :(
> (It's shame that they include 2.1.15 in the new Centos7 distribution!)


You have answered your own question.


> But if we 'use supplied tools' and lost distribution integration - like
> removing cron entries automatically when 'service mailman stop' -
> does this make sense at all?


The OP (and I) were only referring to using the 'crontab' command to
install/edit a crontab rather than directly copying/editing files.

In the case of a package which installs/removes Mailman's crontab as
part of it's init.d script, this translates to "if you want to edit
Mailman's crontab, edit the source file, not the /etc/cron.d/mailman
file. And, in this case, it is incumbent on the packager to make this
clear in the package documentation.

But this raises the question, if you are installing Mailman from source,
why do you still have artifacts from the distro's package still in your
installation.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From danil at smirnov.la  Tue Apr 21 21:18:26 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 22:18:26 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] packages vs sources (was: Cron command?)
In-Reply-To: <553695B9.9040408@msapiro.net>
References: <CAMrrXbqq+6H4R_bb6d7r+Ln3WzQsiR9uE7=O67nv+S3wZOEEjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <553695B9.9040408@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbq+x6WzkAxLYAfJXNyzyQeVvA++6Th2maYmXMU9BDtEzA@mail.gmail.com>

2015-04-21 21:23 GMT+03:00 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> But this raises the question, if you are installing Mailman from source,
> why do you still have artifacts from the distro's package still in your
> installation.

Why you name them 'artefacts'? I consider them very convenient technology
working great for Mailman 2.1.18-1 also. I can stop and start Mailman service
with 'service' tool and I don't need to worry about crontab entries.

Give me a reason why I wouldn't do this.

Danil

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 21 22:10:07 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:10:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] packages vs sources
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbq+x6WzkAxLYAfJXNyzyQeVvA++6Th2maYmXMU9BDtEzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbqq+6H4R_bb6d7r+Ln3WzQsiR9uE7=O67nv+S3wZOEEjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <553695B9.9040408@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXbq+x6WzkAxLYAfJXNyzyQeVvA++6Th2maYmXMU9BDtEzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5536AE9F.8010105@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2015 12:18 PM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 2015-04-21 21:23 GMT+03:00 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
>> But this raises the question, if you are installing Mailman from source,
>> why do you still have artifacts from the distro's package still in your
>> installation.
> 
> Why you name them 'artefacts'? I consider them very convenient technology
> working great for Mailman 2.1.18-1 also. I can stop and start Mailman service
> with 'service' tool and I don't need to worry about crontab entries.


They are things that are in some sense left over from a prior install of
a distro's Mailman package. Had you just installed Mailman from source
without ever installing the package, you would not be aware of them.
Thus, they are artifacts left over from the package.


> Give me a reason why I wouldn't do this.


If you know exactly what you are doing and how things that remain from
the package interact with your source install/upgrade, that's fine, and
if you like those specific things you continue to use, there's no reason
not to.

But those conditions don't apply to everyone and people sometimes get
themselves in trouble when they knowingly or unknowingly mix things from
a package with things from the source distribution that may not be
compatible in the ways that they do things.

For example, your packages /etc/init.d/mailman script copies
(apparently) /opt/local/share/mailman/cron/crontab.in or maybe
/(var|usr)/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in to /etc/cron.d/mailman.

If in the process of installing/upgrading your installation from the
source distribution you had copied the source cron/crontab.in to
whatever crontab.in the /etc/init.d/mailman script copies from, it would
not work because the source cron/crontab.in is a 'user' crontab and
doesn't have 'mailman' as the 6th field in the entries.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From danil at smirnov.la  Tue Apr 21 22:38:15 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 23:38:15 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] packages vs sources
In-Reply-To: <5536AE9F.8010105@msapiro.net>
References: <CAMrrXbqq+6H4R_bb6d7r+Ln3WzQsiR9uE7=O67nv+S3wZOEEjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <553695B9.9040408@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXbq+x6WzkAxLYAfJXNyzyQeVvA++6Th2maYmXMU9BDtEzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5536AE9F.8010105@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXboKg_WmEH2=xdTHcULx-JkytO2_=L8KMb0hNZdTk0tgLg@mail.gmail.com>

2015-04-21 23:10 GMT+03:00 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> They are things that are in some sense left over from a prior install of
> a distro's Mailman package. Had you just installed Mailman from source
> without ever installing the package, you would not be aware of them.
> Thus, they are artifacts left over from the package.

Using 'service' scripts to control ALL server's services (Mailman IS a
service irrespective of its version, right?) isn't absurd or
non-sense. I think one should respect distribution structure and keep
things work as distribution creator's intended.

Considering this 'packagers related' stuff as not important and
insisting on 'native' way to use cron has less sense for me than the
opposite. Why standard control of Mailman service in very popular
distribution family has no reflection in Mailman documentation you
mentioned and sometimes considers like 'artefacts'?

May be this attitude has some influence on that fact that there is so
old version of Mailman in last Centos release?...

Danil

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 21 23:05:32 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:05:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] packages vs sources
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXboKg_WmEH2=xdTHcULx-JkytO2_=L8KMb0hNZdTk0tgLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbqq+6H4R_bb6d7r+Ln3WzQsiR9uE7=O67nv+S3wZOEEjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <553695B9.9040408@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXbq+x6WzkAxLYAfJXNyzyQeVvA++6Th2maYmXMU9BDtEzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5536AE9F.8010105@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXboKg_WmEH2=xdTHcULx-JkytO2_=L8KMb0hNZdTk0tgLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5536BB9C.9040604@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2015 01:38 PM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 
> Using 'service' scripts to control ALL server's services (Mailman IS a
> service irrespective of its version, right?) isn't absurd or
> non-sense. I think one should respect distribution structure and keep
> things work as distribution creator's intended.


Mailman is not a service on your server if you don't install it either
from source or a package. Your /etc/init.d/mailmnan script was installed
by your Mailman package. It wasn't there before you installed the package.

The source distribution also includes an init.d script at
scripts/mailman and instructions for installing it are in comments at
its beginning and in the installation manual at
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node42.html>, so you can see, we
definitely support 'service' scripts.


> Considering this 'packagers related' stuff as not important and
> insisting on 'native' way to use cron has less sense for me than the
> opposite. Why standard control of Mailman service in very popular
> distribution family has no reflection in Mailman documentation you
> mentioned and sometimes considers like 'artefacts'?


See the above. The only thing I'm calling 'packagers related' is the
specific content of the init.d script, not the concept.


> May be this attitude has some influence on that fact that there is so
> old version of Mailman in last Centos release?...


You would have to as Red Hat about that? I don't see what "attitude" you
are talking about here that would affect the version that Red Hat and
hence CentOS chooses to include in a particular distro.

Do we have a communication disconnect of some kind here?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From danil at smirnov.la  Tue Apr 21 23:17:50 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 00:17:50 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] packages vs sources
In-Reply-To: <5536BB9C.9040604@msapiro.net>
References: <CAMrrXbqq+6H4R_bb6d7r+Ln3WzQsiR9uE7=O67nv+S3wZOEEjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <553695B9.9040408@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXbq+x6WzkAxLYAfJXNyzyQeVvA++6Th2maYmXMU9BDtEzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5536AE9F.8010105@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXboKg_WmEH2=xdTHcULx-JkytO2_=L8KMb0hNZdTk0tgLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5536BB9C.9040604@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbpo7ei_kmrGq35_HWE-Y+q0CcyCbzx3Yd6TEh0FE4xwgg@mail.gmail.com>

2015-04-22 0:05 GMT+03:00 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> The source distribution also includes an init.d script at
> scripts/mailman and instructions for installing it are in comments at
> its beginning and in the installation manual at
> <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node42.html>, so you can see, we
> definitely support 'service' scripts.

Is it also support cron entries to remove them when stopping?
This is the main topic of the discussion.

You described cron entries copying procedure as 'artifacts' - if init.d
script supports fully the same functionality, I must agree that 'packager stuff'
are really artifacts...

> Do we have a communication disconnect of some kind here?

Perhaps. :)

Danil

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 21 23:43:38 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:43:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] packages vs sources
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbpo7ei_kmrGq35_HWE-Y+q0CcyCbzx3Yd6TEh0FE4xwgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbqq+6H4R_bb6d7r+Ln3WzQsiR9uE7=O67nv+S3wZOEEjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <553695B9.9040408@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXbq+x6WzkAxLYAfJXNyzyQeVvA++6Th2maYmXMU9BDtEzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5536AE9F.8010105@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXboKg_WmEH2=xdTHcULx-JkytO2_=L8KMb0hNZdTk0tgLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5536BB9C.9040604@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXbpo7ei_kmrGq35_HWE-Y+q0CcyCbzx3Yd6TEh0FE4xwgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5536C48A.1050705@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2015 02:17 PM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 
> You described cron entries copying procedure as 'artifacts'


Yes, I described the specific content of your init.d/mailman script as
an artifact[1] if your package.


>> Do we have a communication disconnect of some kind here?
> 
> Perhaps. :)


I use the word 'artifact in the sense of definition 6 at
<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/artifact>, i.e. "any feature
that is not naturally present but is a product of an extrinsic agent,
method, or the like:". In this case, some content that would not be
there if you had never installed the package, but had installed from
source following the procedures in our manual at
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/index.html>. Thus, that content is
an artifact of your package install.

Clearly this word means something pejorative to you, but I had no such
intent.

Whether it is preferable to install Mailman's crontab as a user or
system crontab is a matter of taste. Whether it is appropriate to
disable Mailman's cron jobs when mailman is not running is arguable. If
it works for you, fine, but it seems to me that you would only want to
do this on a production server if you decided to shut Mailman down
entirely and permanently. If mailman was only going to be stopped for a
short period for some reason, would you really want to not run the
checkdbs, disabled, senddigests or mailpasswds cron jobs just because
their time was in that window. Maybe that would be the case for you, but
it is not a decision the I would feel comfortable making for all
installations that use Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cpz at tuunq.com  Tue Apr 21 23:30:08 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:30:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] packages vs sources
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbpo7ei_kmrGq35_HWE-Y+q0CcyCbzx3Yd6TEh0FE4xwgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbqq+6H4R_bb6d7r+Ln3WzQsiR9uE7=O67nv+S3wZOEEjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <553695B9.9040408@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXbq+x6WzkAxLYAfJXNyzyQeVvA++6Th2maYmXMU9BDtEzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5536AE9F.8010105@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXboKg_WmEH2=xdTHcULx-JkytO2_=L8KMb0hNZdTk0tgLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5536BB9C.9040604@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXbpo7ei_kmrGq35_HWE-Y+q0CcyCbzx3Yd6TEh0FE4xwgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5536C160.7050008@tuunq.com>

On 4/21/2015 1:38 PM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> Using 'service' scripts to control ALL server's services
[...]
> Considering this 'packagers related' stuff as not important and insisting
> on 'native' way to use cron has less sense for me than the opposite. Why
> standard control of Mailman service in very popular distribution family
> has no reflection in Mailman documentation you mentioned and sometimes
> considers like 'artefacts'?

What 'service' scripts?

On 4/21/2015 2:17 PM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> You described cron entries copying procedure as 'artifacts' - if init.d
> script supports fully the same functionality, I must agree that 'packager stuff'
> are really artifacts...

See, here's the thing- my systems don't have /etc/init.d/; I put the mailman 
startup in /etc/rc.local. (I use some very popular bsd distros, which are 
rather different from other *nix distros, which are rather different from 
other other *nix distros. It's a lot of work to keep track of all of them.) 
If the MM doc needs to be updated, I'm sure the offer would be well-received.

z!


From lac at openend.se  Wed Apr 22 00:55:37 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 00:55:37 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to pypy-dev@python.org
Message-ID: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se>

Forwarded message here.  He just tried to subscribe as ben.jolitz at xad.com
but apparantly can only subscribe if he leaves the password field blank.

It is, of course, working just fine for me.

Laura

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From: Ben Jolitz <ben.jolitz at xad.com>
To: Laura Creighton <lac at openend.se>
CC: Maciej Fijalkowski <fijall at gmail.com>,
        "pypy-dev-owner at python.org"
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References: <D15BDF96.1F8%ben.jolitz at xad.com>
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 <D15BF054.201%ben.jolitz at xad.com>
 <201504211939.t3LJdaYR008366 at fido.openend.se>
In-Reply-To: <201504211939.t3LJdaYR008366 at fido.openend.se>
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Nope. Since I got an auto generated password, I can say the one I tried to
use, which was ?duhton? (without the quotes).

Any other password also failed, including ?1234?

Leaving the password field blank just worked.

Ben

On 4/21/15, 12:39 PM, "Laura Creighton" <lac at openend.se> wrote:

>In a message of Tue, 21 Apr 2015 19:22:41 -0000, Ben Jolitz writes:
>>I opened a new tab and tried to subscribe with ben.jolitz at xad.com as my
>>email address, only ASCII characters.
>>
>>Upon hitting the ?Subscribe? form button, the browser goes to
>>https://mail.python.org/mailman/subscribe/pypy-dev
>>with the response HTML containing:
>><h1>pypy-dev Subscription results</h1>You must GET the form before
>>submitting it.
>>
>>
>>
>>And I figured out where you need to look. By omitting the ?Pick a
>>password?, ?Reenter password? fields on the subscribe form, Mailman
>>successfully subscribes me.
>>
>>While I am now subscribed to the list, others may not become desperate
>>enough to leave the password fields empty.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Ben
>
>Did you have non-ascii chars in the password you tried to use?
>
>Laura
>


------- End of Forwarded Message

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr 22 01:31:46 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 16:31:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2015 03:55 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> Forwarded message here.  He just tried to subscribe as ben.jolitz at xad.com
> but apparantly can only subscribe if he leaves the password field blank.
> 
> It is, of course, working just fine for me.


And it has nothing to do with the password being blank.


>>> Upon hitting the ?Subscribe? form button, the browser goes to
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/subscribe/pypy-dev
>>> with the response HTML containing:
>>> <h1>pypy-dev Subscription results</h1>You must GET the form before
>>> submitting it.


This says that the form he's submitting either is not the form at
<https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev> or he got (http GET)
the form either more than 1 hour before or less than 5 seconds before
submitting it.

This is because of the fix for
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1082746>. The feature is
described at
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/NEWS>,
lines 497-505 and was implemented for the python.org lists with the
recent 2.1.19 upgrade.

There are a number of recent POST requests to
<https://mail.python.org/mailman/subscribe/pypy-dev> in the logs at
mail.python.org, so I can't absolutely confirm the scenario, but I
suspect it went something like this:

1) POST an old form with a password and get the error.

2) go back in the browser and try again, still with an old form and
still get the error

3) reget a fresh listinfo page, fill in and submit the form, this time
with no password and it works, not because no password, but because it
was a fresh form.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lac at openend.se  Wed Apr 22 06:53:20 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 06:53:20 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>
 of "Tue, 21 Apr 2015 16:31:46 -0700." <5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Tue, 21 Apr 2015 16:31:46 -0700, Mark Sapiro writes:
>On 04/21/2015 03:55 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
>> Forwarded message here.  He just tried to subscribe as ben.jolitz at xad.com
>> but apparantly can only subscribe if he leaves the password field blank.
>> 
>> It is, of course, working just fine for me.
>
>
>And it has nothing to do with the password being blank.

Thank you Mark.  Maybe we need a longer, more descriptive error message
for when that happens?

Laura

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Apr 22 12:58:25 2015
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 11:58:25 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <55368600.9010604@msapiro.net>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429633968.3786.75.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <20150421164201.GF11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <55368600.9010604@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20150422105825.GG11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 10:16:48AM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 04/21/2015 09:42 AM, Adam McGreggor wrote:
> > This makes me wonder if it might be useful to have two files in the
> > Mailman source:
> > 
> >     mailman/cron/crontab.in-system
> >     mailman/cron/crontab.in-user
> > 
> > with -system including the 'user' column?
> 
> Why? Our distribution works when installed per our docs. Downstream
> packages also tend to do the right thing. Problems tend to occur only
> when users of packages try to follow our documentation rather that the
> packager's.

Reading more of the thread, I think that's something that wasn't clear
to me; the mixed approach of remnants of a package install, then a
source install.

> > Were the 'offical' source for Mailman be GitHub, there'd be a PR
> > already, handling that.
> 
> Just FYI and not addressing the issue of, PRs vs. branches vs. bzr merge
> proposals, Mailman 3 will probably use GitLabs as it's official
> repository. We're not there yet, but we recognize that Bazaar lost the war.

I think that will help drive community contributions, immensely. It's
one barrier removed.

> We can't use GitHub because GitHub uses proprietary software and as a
> GNU project, we get into issues with FSF if our complete stack is not
> open source.

*sigh* (and probably better not mentioning further; at least in this
(sub-)thread). 

-- 
"Get me a beer. I don't care what kind it is, just get me a beer!"
    -- Duke of Edinburgh, on being offered the finest Italian wines by 
       PM Giuliano Amato at a dinner in Rome in 2000.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Apr 22 15:31:57 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:31:57 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron command?
In-Reply-To: <20150422105825.GG11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
References: <CAP_TYZQJ23wiYdLP6uVhQ7ShhoBSmFPmQuoSTqLf74Fn-Uc1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXbqV3U6f1MCdhEZRgTKpT59JuMeOeKJ833Hx0hnHGhOTPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429626242.3786.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <CAMrrXbqSrbGhHVGqOZx1A4XAz1yhD7zJOVy5t+wxdWdd4VXxWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMrrXboi1+DhwDg62pkevMPXtLyK7_1kDpADJ-xiuqadyYGc-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1429633968.3786.75.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <20150421164201.GF11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <55368600.9010604@msapiro.net>
 <20150422105825.GG11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <87fv7sthki.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Adam McGreggor writes:

 > I think that will help drive community contributions, immensely. It's
 > one barrier removed.

"Immensely"?  I'm not terribly optimistic.  I personally want to use
git, but moving to git has not appreciably changed the equation for
Emacs (which also made the move from Bazaar to git recently).

The barrier here is the same as for Emacs, I'm afraid: we're not sexy
bling, we're not a game, and nobody gets filthy rich just by
contributing a cloudy improvement to Mailman.  And unlike Emacs, I
can't recall anyone ever saying "I would contribute to Mailman if the
main repo was git."


From nstupinski at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 15:35:22 2015
From: nstupinski at gmail.com (Nicoli Stupinski)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:35:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] kernel update
Message-ID: <CACyhm5qTtLOXW9uXcpnt-Bmbb+Gb6hpS_G43vOWYGDG=w4kvOA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a system running CentOS v6.2 that I want to do a kernel update on to
fix an issue.  If I do a "yum update kernel" it will install the kernel
that used with CentOS v6.6.  I know, I know, I should update all of the
packages and go to v6.6 but I can't do just that at this time.  Will
running the CentOS v6.6 kernel be a problem if the rest of the system is at
the CentOS 6.2 level?

Current: 2.6.32-279.9.1.el6

One I need or greater: 2.6.32-279.33.1.el6  (But I can't find this anywhere)

Latest via yum: 2.6.32-504.16.2.el6

-Nic

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr 22 18:07:13 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:07:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2015 09:53 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> In a message of Tue, 21 Apr 2015 16:31:46 -0700, Mark Sapiro writes:
>> On 04/21/2015 03:55 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
>>> Forwarded message here.  He just tried to subscribe as ben.jolitz at xad.com
>>> but apparantly can only subscribe if he leaves the password field blank.
>>>
>>> It is, of course, working just fine for me.
>>
>>
>> And it has nothing to do with the password being blank.
> 
> Thank you Mark.  Maybe we need a longer, more descriptive error message
> for when that happens?


Actually, the scenario I posed is not correct. If it were, the message
would have said "The form is too old.  Please GET it again.". There are
three possibilities. If the form was gotten more than an hour before
submission, the message is as above. If it was gotten less than 5
seconds before submission (i.e., by a robot), the message is "Please
take a few seconds to fill out the form before submitting it."

The message your user got, "You must GET the form before submitting
it.", indicates the hidden 'sub_form_token' either was not present in
the submitted form or was not of the correct format. This could indicate
that there is a subscribe form for pypy-dev on some web site somewhere
that does not generate a correct 'sub_form_token'. Basically, such 3rd
party subscribe forms are intentionally disabled by this feature because
otherwise they could be submitted by robots.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cpz at tuunq.com  Wed Apr 22 22:11:50 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 13:11:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] kernel update
In-Reply-To: <CACyhm5qTtLOXW9uXcpnt-Bmbb+Gb6hpS_G43vOWYGDG=w4kvOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACyhm5qTtLOXW9uXcpnt-Bmbb+Gb6hpS_G43vOWYGDG=w4kvOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55380086.70106@tuunq.com>

On 4/22/2015 6:35 AM, Nicoli Stupinski wrote:
> I have a system running CentOS v6.2 that I want to do a kernel update on to
> fix an issue.  If I do a "yum update kernel" it will install the kernel
> that used with CentOS v6.6.  I know, I know, I should update all of the
> packages and go to v6.6 but I can't do just that at this time.  Will
> running the CentOS v6.6 kernel be a problem if the rest of the system is at
> the CentOS 6.2 level?

Not a mailman question, but it sounds like a very bad idea. When lib's and 
modules don't match the kernel, hilarity tends to ensue.

z!
who's not a linux expert


From lac at openend.se  Wed Apr 22 22:34:13 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:34:13 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>
 of "Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:07:13 -0700." <5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se><5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:07:13 -0700, Mark Sapiro writes:
>The message your user got, "You must GET the form before submitting
>it.", indicates the hidden 'sub_form_token' either was not present in
>the submitted form or was not of the correct format. This could indicate
>that there is a subscribe form for pypy-dev on some web site somewhere
>that does not generate a correct 'sub_form_token'. Basically, such 3rd
>party subscribe forms are intentionally disabled by this feature because
>otherwise they could be submitted by robots.

He says he got the form from https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev

So what can corrupt the token, I wonder.  How chrome stores tokens
and what things -- like an add blocker -- could modify or remove
it isn't one of the things I know.  And how this fits in with 'ok
when no password used, not ok when a password used' seems quite puzzling
to me.

Off to think some more ...

Laura



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr 22 23:34:00 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:34:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se><5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>

On 04/22/2015 01:34 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> 
> He says he got the form from https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
> 
> So what can corrupt the token, I wonder.  How chrome stores tokens
> and what things -- like an add blocker -- could modify or remove
> it isn't one of the things I know.  And how this fits in with 'ok
> when no password used, not ok when a password used' seems quite puzzling
> to me.


It is a stretch, but the HTML for the form tag and it's input tags look
something like

   <FORM Method=POST ACTION="../subscribe/pypy-dev"><input type="hidden"
name="sub_form_token"
value="1429735034:cebafdd44a345e440de23b4ba49d63b71439258a">

<INPUT type="Text" name="email" size="30" value="">
<INPUT type="Text" name="fullname" size="30" value="">
<INPUT type="Password" name="pw" size="15">
<INPUT type="Password" name="pw-conf" size="15">
<input type=radio name="digest" value="0" CHECKED> No
	    <input type=radio name="digest" value="1">  Yes
<INPUT type="Submit" name="email-button" value="Subscribe">
    </FORM>

It is conceivable that some browser could corrupt the sub_form_token
value upon submission if and only if the password fields are empty, but
as I say, it's a stretch.

When did this issue occur? I have looked at the web server logs back to
March 30, and every POST to mailman/subscribe/pypy-dev in those logs is
from a bot attempting to subscribe to many lists.

There is another possibility. The digits left of the colon in the token
are the Unix time of when the token was generated and the stuff to the
right is a hex digest of a sha-1 hash of the time, listname, remote IP,
and a 'secret'.

There's probably a bug here, but if the token is missing, the user gets
the 'Please take a few seconds to fill out the form before submitting
it.' message. (It would be better I think to issue the 'The form is too
old.  Please GET it again.' message in this case)

The only way the 'You must GET the form before submitting it.' message
is issued is if the time is within the 1 hour >= time >= 5 seconds
window and the hash doesn't match. This could occur if the user is
accessing the site through some kind of proxy or other device which
submits the form from a different IP than the one that got it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lac at openend.se  Thu Apr 23 00:11:15 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 00:11:15 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>
 of "Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:34:00 -0700." <553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se><5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se><553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:34:00 -0700, Mark Sapiro writes:
>It is a stretch, but the HTML for the form tag and it's input tags look
>something like
>
>   <FORM Method=POST ACTION="../subscribe/pypy-dev"><input type="hidden"
>name="sub_form_token"
>value="1429735034:cebafdd44a345e440de23b4ba49d63b71439258a">
>
><INPUT type="Text" name="email" size="30" value="">
><INPUT type="Text" name="fullname" size="30" value="">
><INPUT type="Password" name="pw" size="15">
><INPUT type="Password" name="pw-conf" size="15">
><input type=radio name="digest" value="0" CHECKED> No
>	    <input type=radio name="digest" value="1">  Yes
><INPUT type="Submit" name="email-button" value="Subscribe">
>    </FORM>
>
>It is conceivable that some browser could corrupt the sub_form_token
>value upon submission if and only if the password fields are empty, but
>as I say, it's a stretch.

And this is upside-down from his experience.  Things go _fine_ when
the password fields are empty, it is just when he fills them out
that things did not work.

>When did this issue occur? I have looked at the web server logs back to
>March 30, and every POST to mailman/subscribe/pypy-dev in those logs is
>from a bot attempting to subscribe to many lists.

Yesterday.
At Tue, 21 Apr 2015 18:05:56 -0000
he sent a mail to pypy-dev-owner (me) complaining about his problem
and asking if we could fix it, so sometime before but close to then
I would guess.

>There is another possibility. The digits left of the colon in the token
>are the Unix time of when the token was generated and the stuff to the
>right is a hex digest of a sha-1 hash of the time, listname, remote IP,
>and a 'secret'.
>
>There's probably a bug here, but if the token is missing, the user gets
>the 'Please take a few seconds to fill out the form before submitting
>it.' message. (It would be better I think to issue the 'The form is too
>old.  Please GET it again.' message in this case)
>
>The only way the 'You must GET the form before submitting it.' message
>is issued is if the time is within the 1 hour >= time >= 5 seconds
>window and the hash doesn't match. This could occur if the user is
>accessing the site through some kind of proxy or other device which
>submits the form from a different IP than the one that got it.

I will ask about this.  He is using stock chrome with no adblocking
plugins -- no plugins at all, as this is a new machine and he hasn't
got around to installing anything yet.

Laura


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 01:52:33 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 16:52:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se><5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se><553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
 <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>

On 4/22/15 3:11 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> In a message of Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:34:00 -0700, Mark Sapiro
> writes:
>> 
>> It is conceivable that some browser could corrupt the
>> sub_form_token value upon submission if and only if the password
>> fields are empty, but as I say, it's a stretch.
> 
> And this is upside-down from his experience.  Things go _fine_
> when the password fields are empty, it is just when he fills them
> out that things did not work.


My mistake. I meant non-empty. And as far as "things go fine", I
suspect it's really "things went fine once and the password fields
happened to be empty that one time".


>> When did this issue occur? I have looked at the web server logs
>> back to March 30, and every POST to mailman/subscribe/pypy-dev in
>> those logs is from a bot attempting to subscribe to many lists.
> 
> Yesterday. At Tue, 21 Apr 2015 18:05:56 -0000 he sent a mail to
> pypy-dev-owner (me) complaining about his problem and asking if we
> could fix it, so sometime before but close to then I would guess.


Yes. I saw the dates in the email, and as I say, I looked at the
server logs all the way back to March 30 and I see no evidence of a
successful subscribe to pypy-dev and all the unsuccessful ones appear
to be just the kind of bot activity we are trying to thwart.


>> The only way the 'You must GET the form before submitting it.'
>> message is issued is if the time is within the 1 hour >= time >=
>> 5 seconds window and the hash doesn't match. This could occur if
>> the user is accessing the site through some kind of proxy or
>> other device which submits the form from a different IP than the
>> one that got it.
> 
> I will ask about this.  He is using stock chrome with no
> adblocking plugins -- no plugins at all, as this is a new machine
> and he hasn't got around to installing anything yet.


It wouldn't be his machine. It would be something between his machine
and mail.python.org. Perhaps some kind of load balancer or other
device which submits each separate http request from one of a pool of
IP addresses. Thus, the subscribe only works if whatever it is uses
the same IP for both the GET and POST and the presence/absence of a
password is just a coincidence.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    Better use your sense - B. Dylan

From macmikeal at me.com  Tue Apr 21 15:35:19 2015
From: macmikeal at me.com (Dr. Mikeal Hughes)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 08:35:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Looking for help
Message-ID: <FD495BAE-063C-4C43-82E9-03D7DE535F57@me.com>

I have tried to install Mailman on my Ubuntu 14.04 Server. It also has a Website virtually hosted on the server as well. I can?t get it to go and am getting some error messages. There are a lot of user install guides on the internet for this and apparently I tried using the wrong one. Could someone contact me off list that might be willing to help me get this up and running?  




Mikeal R. Hughes, D.Min., Th.D., Ph.D.
Minister - Manteno church of Christ
www.mikealrhughes.com	
mail at mikealrhughes.com






From macmikeal at me.com  Thu Apr 23 00:51:06 2015
From: macmikeal at me.com (Dr. Mikeal Hughes)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:51:06 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error message on my Mailman Install.
Message-ID: <9400FF14-203B-4267-8B11-5DAD7FA7F42D@me.com>

Now getting this error message. - AH01276: Cannot serve directory /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/: No matching DirectoryIndex (index.html,index.cgi,index.pl,index.php,index.xhtml,index.htm) found, and server-generated directory index forbidden by Options directive

From macmikeal at me.com  Thu Apr 23 00:52:10 2015
From: macmikeal at me.com (Dr. Mikeal Hughes)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:52:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Initiation problems
Message-ID: <AD26A2DD-BADE-429C-8B5F-5DAF17BE3D0F@me.com>

Well I have been trying to get mailman to go on this Ubuntu 14.04 Server install now for 3 days. I am down to this problem. Any time I type in http://biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/admin <http://biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/admin> I get. A 403 error that says. 
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access / on this server.

Apache/2.4.7 (Ubuntu) Server at www.biblematters.net Port 80

Any ideas where this problem might be?

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 04:04:55 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 19:04:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error message on my Mailman Install.
In-Reply-To: <9400FF14-203B-4267-8B11-5DAD7FA7F42D@me.com>
References: <9400FF14-203B-4267-8B11-5DAD7FA7F42D@me.com>
Message-ID: <55385347.3090603@msapiro.net>

On 04/22/2015 03:51 PM, Dr. Mikeal Hughes wrote:
> Now getting this error message. - AH01276: Cannot serve directory /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/: No matching DirectoryIndex (index.html,index.cgi,index.pl,index.php,index.xhtml,index.htm) found, and server-generated directory index forbidden by Options directive


There is a problem in your Apache config.

You probably need a ScriptAlias for the path you are accessing that
gives that error. See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node10.html>.
Otherwise we'd need to see your Apache config file to help.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 04:06:26 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 19:06:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Initiation problems
In-Reply-To: <AD26A2DD-BADE-429C-8B5F-5DAF17BE3D0F@me.com>
References: <AD26A2DD-BADE-429C-8B5F-5DAF17BE3D0F@me.com>
Message-ID: <553853A2.7090009@msapiro.net>

On 04/22/2015 03:52 PM, Dr. Mikeal Hughes wrote:
> Well I have been trying to get mailman to go on this Ubuntu 14.04 Server install now for 3 days. I am down to this problem. Any time I type in http://biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/admin <http://biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/admin> I get. A 403 error that says. 
> Forbidden
> 
> You don't have permission to access / on this server.
> 
> Apache/2.4.7 (Ubuntu) Server at www.biblematters.net Port 80
> 
> Any ideas where this problem might be?


In your Apache config. We can't say much more without seeing it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From steve at pearwood.info  Thu Apr 23 04:28:07 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 12:28:07 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces being detected as spam/virus sending rate
Message-ID: <20150423022806.GP5663@ando.pearwood.info>

Hi,

I run a mailing list of about 1-2 thousand subscribers for announcements 
only. My ISP has started sending me automated messages claiming that 
there is a high spam/virus sending rate from my IP address. It took me a 
long time to get a straight answer from them, but eventually they told 
me that they are not triggering on me sending email, but on the number 
of bounces that come back.

My setup is that outgoing mail goes through the ISP's mail server (that 
was their recommendation) but incoming mail comes directly to me. I send 
out an announcement, and a few days or a week later I get an automated 
message from the ISP suggesting I might be sending spam or a virus and 
pointing me to the usual generic Windows anti-virus solutions.

All my computers here are Linux, so while it is not impossible that I 
have been infected and am now part of a spammer's botnet, I think it's 
unlikely.

I receive unhandled bounce notifications (no more than a handful of 
those, which I then manually remove) and see notifications of addresses 
that are removed for excessive bouncing, again no more than a handful at 
a time. How can I see a list of members set to No Mail for bouncing?

Can you suggest anything I can do to avoid triggering the ISP's system? 
(A hard question, I know, since we don't know precisely what triggers 
it in the first place.)


-- 
Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 05:23:38 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:23:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces being detected as spam/virus sending
 rate
In-Reply-To: <20150423022806.GP5663@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <20150423022806.GP5663@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <553865BA.90006@msapiro.net>

On 04/22/2015 07:28 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> 
> I receive unhandled bounce notifications (no more than a handful of 
> those, which I then manually remove) and see notifications of addresses 
> that are removed for excessive bouncing, again no more than a handful at 
> a time. How can I see a list of members set to No Mail for bouncing?


bin/list_members --nomail=bybounce LISTNAME

or for all lists

for l in `bin/list_lists --bare`; do
    echo $l
    bin/list_members --nomail=bybounce $l
done

To see more detail get the script at
<http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/get_bounce_info.py>, copy it to
Mailman's bin/ directory and run

bin/withlist -a -r get_bounce_info


> Can you suggest anything I can do to avoid triggering the ISP's system? 
> (A hard question, I know, since we don't know precisely what triggers 
> it in the first place.)


You need much more information as to what is actually happening. If this
is one of the larger ISPs, see <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030690> for tips
on signing up for their feedback system.

It's a difficult process to get the information you need. Here's a case
story somewhat on topic.

I used to run my own outgoing MTA on my desktop computer. Everything was
properly configured including full circle DNS and a nice domain name
(msapiro.net). As far as I could tell, everyone accepted my mail, but I
used to check the status of my IP at
<https://postmaster.live.com/snds/ipStatus.aspx> (a service you can sign
up for).

Every couple of months, my IP would show up as "exhibiting bot like
behavior", even if I only sent a couple of personal messages to any
microsoft server, and even though the report at
<https://postmaster.live.com/snds/dataIP.aspx?ip=1152893423> always says
"Error: no data for the specified IP" because I have never sent the
threshold number of messages in a day. They never actually blocked my
IP; they just flagged it. I would report the flag and they would reply
with a message like


> Your IP (68.183.193.239) was blocked by Windows Live Hotmail because the majority of all the email that you send has been judged to be spam by our internal filtering system. I have conducted an investigation into the emails originating from your IP space and have implemented mitigation for your deliverability problem. This process may take 24 - 48 hours to replicate completely throughout our system.  


I have numerous saved emails from me asking them to just verify that
they have actually seen even one such spam message. The exchange usually
went something like this


>> We regret that we are unable to provide further assistance and details about this situation since we are not in liberty to discuss or provide samples of spam mails.
> 
> 
> The point is that I don't believe there have been any spam emails to Windows Live Hotmail that originated from IP 68.183.193.239. I don't care if you provide me with details of any specific email. I would just like you to verify that you personally have seen a copy or information about even one specific spam email originating from this IP.
> 
> 
>>At this point, I would suggest that you review and comply with Windows Live Hotmail's technical standards. This information can be found at http://postmaster.live.com/Guidelines.aspx
> 
> 
> I have reviewed the information on the above page and the pages linked therefrom, and I believe I am in compliance. Do you actually have an example of a non-compliant message originating from IP 68.183.193.239? You don't have to provide a sample or any specific information about it. I would just like you to tell me that you have actually found one.


No one ever confirmed that they had seen even one alleged spam message,
but they always removed the flag, but a couple of months later, it would
return and we'd do the same dance.

I finally decided that what was actually happening is every couple of
months they would notice that my IP was in a "home DSL" net block, and
sending even one message from such an IP was "bot like behavior".

The end of the story is I switched to sending my outgoing mail via my
production server that's in a commercial colocation facility, and
Microsoft stopped flagging my desktop IP as it sends them no mail at all.

The moral here is the bigger the ISP, the more difficult it is to get
any relevant information from them.

Good Luck.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Apr 23 05:57:47 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 12:57:47 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounces being detected as spam/virus sending rate
In-Reply-To: <20150423022806.GP5663@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <20150423022806.GP5663@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <87a8xzsdhg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Steven D'Aprano writes:

 > Can you suggest anything I can do to avoid triggering the ISP's
 > system? 

<humor mood="DMARC black, very very black, Sir!">
Start by removing all yahoo.com and aol.com addresses! ;-)
</humor>

The timing is wrong, and knowing you I suppose you probably already
have a mitigation in place, but to cover all bases: it's possible
you're running afoul of DMARC bounces.  To address that, make sure
your mailman is at least v2.1.18-1, and set one of the DMARC
mitigation options (most likely, you should use Munge From) in the
General Options screen.  See the from_is_list option.

Otherwise, you're right, we need to see the addresses which are
bouncing to guess why they might be bouncing.  Perhaps they are some
kind of spammy thing, subscribed in an attempt to either collect
addresses (but then they should bounce) or to use your list as an
expander for spam.

The bin/list_members script with the --nomail option will get you the
list you want.  It's usually in /var/lib/mailman/, but depending on
your distro it might be somewhere else (/usr/lib/mailman, or yet
another place).


From lac at openend.se  Thu Apr 23 05:59:26 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 05:59:26 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>
 of "Wed, 22 Apr 2015 16:52:33 -0700." <55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se><5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se><553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
 <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se><55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 22 Apr 2015 16:52:33 -0700, Mark Sapiro writes:
>It wouldn't be his machine. It would be something between his machine
>and mail.python.org. Perhaps some kind of load balancer or other
>device which submits each separate http request from one of a pool of
>IP addresses. Thus, the subscribe only works if whatever it is uses
>the same IP for both the GET and POST and the presence/absence of a
>password is just a coincidence.

BINGO.  He has found out that this is what happens at his (new) work
site.  It's a load balancer.  He is very grateful for getting this
figured out. :) I fear that this sort of load balancing is going to
become all the more common in the future.  Is insisting that the IP
addresses match serving a useful purpose?  Should we have a more
informative error message?

Laura



From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Apr 23 06:13:27 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:13:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe
	to	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se>
 <5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se>
 <5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se>
 <553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
 <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se>
 <55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>
 <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <878udjscrc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Laura Creighton writes:

 > become all the more common in the future.  Is insisting that the IP
 > addresses match serving a useful purpose?

Yes.  Differing request origins is the characteristic signature of a
CSRF attack.[1]  I suppose the site could resolve the IP to a domain,
but that would slow things down significantly.

 > Should we have a more informative error message?


Footnotes: 
[1]  https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Cross-Site_Request_Forgery_%28CSRF%29



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 06:41:13 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:41:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se><5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se><553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
 <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se><55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>
 <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <553877E9.40402@msapiro.net>

On 04/22/2015 08:59 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> 
> BINGO.  He has found out that this is what happens at his (new) work
> site.  It's a load balancer.  He is very grateful for getting this
> figured out. :) I fear that this sort of load balancing is going to
> become all the more common in the future.  Is insisting that the IP
> addresses match serving a useful purpose?  Should we have a more
> informative error message?


Yes. I just a few minutes ago realized I was looking at the wrong logs
(http vs https). Here's one of his attempts:

50.205.11.75 - - [21/Apr/2015:20:01:42 +0200] "GET
/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev HTTP/1.1" 200 7220 "https://www.google.com/"
"Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_10_2) AppleWebKit/537.36
(KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/41.0.2272.118 Safari/537.36"

50.205.11.74 - - [21/Apr/2015:20:02:18 +0200] "POST
/mailman/subscribe/pypy-dev HTTP/1.1" 200 1013
"https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev" "Mozilla/5.0
(Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_10_2) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like
Gecko) Chrome/41.0.2272.118 Safari/537.36"

He GETs the form from 50.205.11.75 and posts it from 50.205.11.74 and it
fails.

There are things I can do. Yes, I think insisting the IP matches does
serve a useful purpose. The idea is to ensure to the extent possible
that the form is posted by a real human from a real web browser who just
got the form from the listinfo page prior to posting it. IP matching is
part of that check for this and other reasons (see Stephen's reply in
this thread).

I am willing to consider weakening it by including only the first 3
octets of the ipv4 address in the hash.

Regarding the error message, I hate to break i18n translations, but
perhaps I can figure a way to use the 3 existing strings in conjunction
with an additional new string to do better.

This is now reported at <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1447445>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lac at openend.se  Thu Apr 23 06:49:01 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 06:49:01 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>
 of "Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:41:13 -0700." <553877E9.40402@msapiro.net>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se><5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se><553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
 <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se><55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>
 <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se><553877E9.40402@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201504230449.t3N4n1bK002684@fido.openend.se>

Maybe at the point where we mention 'you must have cookies enabled'
we should mention that load balancers can cause problems?

(Thinking out loud here.)

Laura
X

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Apr 23 07:11:24 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:11:24 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe
	to	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: <201504230449.t3N4n1bK002684@fido.openend.se>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se>
 <5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se>
 <5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se>
 <553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
 <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se>
 <55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>
 <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se>
 <553877E9.40402@msapiro.net>
 <201504230449.t3N4n1bK002684@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <877ft3sa2r.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Laura Creighton writes:

 > Maybe at the point where we mention 'you must have cookies enabled'
 > we should mention that load balancers can cause problems?

I don't think nontechnical users will know what "load balancer" means.
By now most users either know about cookies because they've disabled
them, or they have them enabled by default.  But load balancers are
designed to be transparent to ordinary users.  We should direct them
to their network administrators, along with an appropriate shortURL to
our site for the admin's benefit.

From fil at rezo.net  Thu Apr 23 07:29:34 2015
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:29:34 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC documentation lacking
Message-ID: <CAERh8-m9xOJ9HngVO-iN6NW2GKUiVHrqpJQ1Rv9CSf52YzYBRw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

just upgraded from 2.1.16 to 2.1.20, because I was fed up with the DMARC
issue. I googled a bit and found http://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC but it
lacks info, especially:

1) how to add a default value in mm_cfg.py
from the release notes I guess it's something like
DEFAULT_DMARC_MODERATION_ACTION = 1 # Munge

2) what numbers correspond to each action
(I dug them out from a comment in SpamDetect.py)
    # Note that for dmarc_moderation_action, 0 = Accept,
    #    1 = Munge, 2 = Wrap, 3 = Reject, 4 = Discard

(I would have updated http://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC but it's immutable.)

-- Fil

From fil at rezo.net  Thu Apr 23 07:32:12 2015
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:32:12 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] traceback: TypeError: expected string or buffer
Message-ID: <CAERh8-mxP034D_k2WbmD6xshvWN6vgfVbhPQpWEW5tuv0HyWvw@mail.gmail.com>

Apr 23 06:23:46 2015 (19383) SHUNTING:
1422957261.069973+11febcd5ef3a2e5ca1331e7ee7dddb0f11888759
Apr 23 06:23:46 2015 (19383) Uncaught runner exception: expected string or
buffer
Apr 23 06:23:46 2015 (19383) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/var/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in
_dispose
    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
  File "/var/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in
_dopipeline
    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py", line 142, in
process
    headers += getDecodedHeaders(p, lcset)
  File "/var/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py", line 74, in
getDecodedHeaders
    v = decode_header(re.sub('\n\s', ' ', v))
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/re.py", line 151, in sub
    return _compile(pattern, flags).sub(repl, string, count)
TypeError: expected string or buffer


I tried to investigate a bit but it appears that in some cases, v is an
"instance", and the message goes to qfiles/shunt/

Does it ring a bell? (I have to say it might be linked to one of my local
patches, though I really can't see which.)


thanks

-- Fil

From fil at rezo.net  Thu Apr 23 09:13:02 2015
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 09:13:02 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC documentation lacking
In-Reply-To: <CAERh8-m9xOJ9HngVO-iN6NW2GKUiVHrqpJQ1Rv9CSf52YzYBRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAERh8-m9xOJ9HngVO-iN6NW2GKUiVHrqpJQ1Rv9CSf52YzYBRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAERh8-m4xVazDj59oNTji5+YaKOQVMgPo=fuvuSrawD8KHUaFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Fil <fil at rezo.net> wrote:

> 1) how to add a default value in mm_cfg.py
> from the release notes I guess it's something like
> DEFAULT_DMARC_MODERATION_ACTION = 1 # Munge
>

just to be clear: this line doesn't seem to bring anything to exiting
lists, which behave normal unless I go and set up
/mailman/admin/${LISTNAME}/?VARHELP=general/from_is_list

-- Fil

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Apr 23 11:05:20 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:05:20 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC documentation lacking
In-Reply-To: <CAERh8-m4xVazDj59oNTji5+YaKOQVMgPo=fuvuSrawD8KHUaFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAERh8-m9xOJ9HngVO-iN6NW2GKUiVHrqpJQ1Rv9CSf52YzYBRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAERh8-m4xVazDj59oNTji5+YaKOQVMgPo=fuvuSrawD8KHUaFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87618nrz8v.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Fil writes:
 > On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Fil <fil at rezo.net> wrote:
 > 
 > > 1) how to add a default value in mm_cfg.py
 > > from the release notes I guess it's something like
 > > DEFAULT_DMARC_MODERATION_ACTION = 1 # Munge
 > >
 > 
 > just to be clear: this line doesn't seem to bring anything to
 > exiting lists, which behave normal unless I go and set up
 > /mailman/admin/${LISTNAME}/?VARHELP=general/from_is_list

That's normal behavior for Mailman configuration.  The "DEFAULT_"
variables are used at list creation time only, I beleve.

I suppose the rationale is that you really don't want all your
existing lists to suddenly *change* behavior because you change the
default.  Perhaps we could have a DEFAULT (for creation time) and a
FALLBACK (for lists without a specific setting).



From fil at rezo.net  Thu Apr 23 12:00:28 2015
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 12:00:28 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC documentation lacking
In-Reply-To: <87618nrz8v.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAERh8-m9xOJ9HngVO-iN6NW2GKUiVHrqpJQ1Rv9CSf52YzYBRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAERh8-m4xVazDj59oNTji5+YaKOQVMgPo=fuvuSrawD8KHUaFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <87618nrz8v.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAERh8-mxBvGSK_jXFQM5uY2OFzZqVOsUczSee1Ty2727AOwPew@mail.gmail.com>

>   > > 1) how to add a default value in mm_cfg.py
>  > > from the release notes I guess it's something like
>  > > DEFAULT_DMARC_MODERATION_ACTION = 1 # Munge
>  > >
>  >
>  > just to be clear: this line doesn't seem to bring anything to
>  > exiting lists, which behave normal unless I go and set up
>  > /mailman/admin/${LISTNAME}/?VARHELP=general/from_is_list
>
> That's normal behavior for Mailman configuration.  The "DEFAULT_"
> variables are used at list creation time only, I beleve.
>
> I suppose the rationale is that you really don't want all your
> existing lists to suddenly *change* behavior because you change the
> default.  Perhaps we could have a DEFAULT (for creation time) and a
> FALLBACK (for lists without a specific setting).
>

OK, makes sense :)

I really did want to change all my 700+ lists, so I wrote the configuration
directive to a file, then applied it to all lists:

echo "dmarc_moderation_action = 1" > dmarc1.cfg
for i in $(bin/list_lists -b); do
   echo $i;
   bin/config_list -i dmarc1.cfg "$i";
done

Hope this can help someone else :)

-- Fil

From macmikeal at me.com  Thu Apr 23 14:52:19 2015
From: macmikeal at me.com (Dr. Mikeal Hughes)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:52:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Icons, email and list creation oh my!
Message-ID: <50CA52FB-F176-4D96-95D7-8AE96A77A180@me.com>

Well I spent 9 hours yesterday getting all the permissions and ownerships changed in my directories yesterday to get mailman at least showing up on the web. Now I have these issues and I am sure with the ?brain trust? here can get them worked out. 
1. The icons are not showing up on the bottom of the Web pages. I went to an old help screen in the mailman home page to find it out dated. I typed in the directory /usr/local/apache/icons to the merriment of no such file or directory. Ok that must have been for apache 1 or something. So I need to find out where the icons are located now and where I need to put them for mailman to pick them up.
2. Issue two - The email address that appears on the Welcome page for people to send mail to is wrong. It should be mail at biblematters.net <mailto:mail at biblematters.net> instead it is mail at www.biblematters.net <mailto:mail at www.biblematters.net> where do I go to get rid of the www out of the address?
3. And finally, drum roll please, I can?t create a new list through the Web portal. I get an error that I am not authorized to do so. I say why not I am the one who put the bloody server together and you mean I can create a list on the thing. If I can?t then who can. Or maybe it don?t want a list but I do.

Seriously though any help you can give me will surely be appreciated. If you aren?t married I will be happy to dance at your wedding for the help.




Mikeal Hughes, N9GI
GROL, Comptia A+, Comptia Network+, MOS
Mikeal Hughes & Associates
EngineerHughes at comcast.net
Cell: 815-546-1867


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 16:49:27 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:49:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] traceback: TypeError: expected string or buffer
In-Reply-To: <CAERh8-mxP034D_k2WbmD6xshvWN6vgfVbhPQpWEW5tuv0HyWvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAERh8-mxP034D_k2WbmD6xshvWN6vgfVbhPQpWEW5tuv0HyWvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55390677.7070309@msapiro.net>

On 04/22/2015 10:32 PM, Fil wrote:
...
>   File "/var/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py", line 74, in
> getDecodedHeaders
>     v = decode_header(re.sub('\n\s', ' ', v))
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.7/re.py", line 151, in sub
>     return _compile(pattern, flags).sub(repl, string, count)
> TypeError: expected string or buffer
> 
> 
> I tried to investigate a bit but it appears that in some cases, v is an
> "instance", and the message goes to qfiles/shunt/
> 
> Does it ring a bell? (I have to say it might be linked to one of my local
> patches, though I really can't see which.)


In the above, v is the value part of one of the (header_name,
header_value) tuples returned by msg.items() where msg is the incoming
message instance. Both the name and value should be strings.

To the best of my recollection, I have not seen this issue before.

Please send me a copy of one of the shunted .pck files.

Also, are any of your patches to Python's email.message.Message class or
Mailman's Message.Message class.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 17:14:02 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:14:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC documentation lacking
In-Reply-To: <CAERh8-m9xOJ9HngVO-iN6NW2GKUiVHrqpJQ1Rv9CSf52YzYBRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAERh8-m9xOJ9HngVO-iN6NW2GKUiVHrqpJQ1Rv9CSf52YzYBRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55390C3A.1020209@msapiro.net>

On 04/22/2015 10:29 PM, Fil wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> just upgraded from 2.1.16 to 2.1.20, because I was fed up with the DMARC
> issue. I googled a bit and found http://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC but it
> lacks info, especially:


The wiki page is only intended to describe in general terms what is
available. It is not intended to be documentation of the settings. The
possible mm_cfg.py settings are all documented in Defaults.py. The
Defaults.py info for this setting is:

# Default action for posts whose From: address domain has a DMARC policy of
# reject or quarantine.  See DEFAULT_FROM_IS_LIST below.  Whatever is set as
# the default here precludes the list owner from setting a lower value.
# 0 = Accept
# 1 = Munge From
# 2 = Wrap Message
# 3 = Reject
# 4 = Discard
DEFAULT_DMARC_MODERATION_ACTION = 0


> (I would have updated http://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC but it's immutable.)


As it says in the first paragraph of the home page at
<http://wiki.list.org/>

... to add or edit content you must sign up and log in, and you must
also request write permission for your user name by sending a note to
the Mailman Steering Committee <mailto link>. (sorry it's the only way
to control wiki spam).

You now have write permission on the wiki.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From macmikeal at me.com  Thu Apr 23 17:30:17 2015
From: macmikeal at me.com (Dr. Mikeal Hughes)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:30:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman install - biblematters.net
Message-ID: <99E8249C-57CF-438E-8F02-73FB59387436@me.com>

Ok here is the way I have the program set up. I have another website I run on this server - www.mikealrhughes.com that is working fine. So I assumed that the mailman install has to go through the etc/apache2/sites-enabled/ In there I have a biblematters.net.conf and a mikealrhughes.com.conf. I assumed I didn?t need a mailman.conf file. I have the directory pointing to usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman where the admin admindb listing and etc are located. Here is my bible matters.net.conf file: 

<VirtualHost *:80>
        # The ServerName directive sets the request scheme, hostname and port that
        # the server uses to identify itself. This is used when creating
        # redirection URLs. In the context of virtual hosts, the ServerName
        # specifies what hostname must appear in the request's Host: header to
        # match this virtual host. For the default virtual host (this file) this
        # value is not decisive as it is used as a last resort host regardless.
        # However, you must set it for any further virtual host explicitly.
        ServerName www.biblematters.net

        #ServerAdmin macmikeal at mac.com
         DocumentRoot /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman
         # AllowOverride None
    #Options ExecCGI
    #AddHandler cgi-script .cgi
    #Order allow,deny
    #Allow from all
        # Available loglevels: trace8, ..., trace1, debug, info, notice, warn,
        # error, crit, alert, emerg.
        # It is also possible to configure the loglevel for particular
        # modules, e.g.
        #LogLevel info ssl:warn

        ErrorLog ${APACHE_LOG_DIR}/error.log
        CustomLog ${APACHE_LOG_DIR}/access.log combined

        # For most configuration files from conf-available/, which are
        # enabled or disabled at a global level, it is possible to
        # include a line for only one particular virtual host. For example the
        # following line enables the CGI configuration for this host only
        # after it has been globally disabled with "a2disconf".
        #Include conf-available/serve-cgi-bin.conf
</VirtualHost>

# vim: syntax=apache ts=4 sw=4 sts=4 sr noet


From macmikeal at me.com  Thu Apr 23 17:34:20 2015
From: macmikeal at me.com (Dr. Mikeal Hughes)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:34:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't login through Administrator Authentication
Message-ID: <81337144-FA69-4531-92C1-9E6A91E45952@me.com>

Ok created list through command line since I could through the web portal. Sent name, email address and password. I went into my Administrator Authentication portal and put in the Password and I get Authorization failed.




Mikeal Hughes, N9GI
GROL, Comptia A+, Comptia Network+, MOS
Mikeal Hughes & Associates
EngineerHughes at comcast.net
Cell: 815-546-1867


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 17:41:06 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:41:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Icons, email and list creation oh my!
In-Reply-To: <50CA52FB-F176-4D96-95D7-8AE96A77A180@me.com>
References: <50CA52FB-F176-4D96-95D7-8AE96A77A180@me.com>
Message-ID: <55391292.2090902@msapiro.net>

On 04/23/2015 05:52 AM, Dr. Mikeal Hughes wrote:
> 1. The icons are
> not showing up on the bottom of the Web pages. I went to an old help
> screen in the mailman home page to find it out dated.


Please provide the URL of this page so I can fix it if it's wrong or
misleading.


> I typed in the
> directory /usr/local/apache/icons to the merriment of no such file or
> directory. Ok that must have been for apache 1 or something. So I
> need to find out where the icons are located now and where I need to
> put them for mailman to pick them up.


The Icons are in Mailman's misc/ directory. Where you have to copy them
is to the directory Apache looks in for /icons/ URLs. Check your Apache
config.


> 2. Issue two - The email
> address that appears on the Welcome page for people to send mail to
> is wrong. It should be mail at biblematters.net
> instead it is
> mail at www.biblematters.net <mailto:mail at www.biblematters.net> where do
> I go to get rid of the www out of the address?


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030592>. Don't overlook running
fix_url as mentioned in the "Existing versus new lists" section. (Also
see <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030616>.)


> 3. And finally, drum
> roll please, I can?t create a new list through the Web portal. I get
> an error that I am not authorized to do so.


Assuming you used bin/mmsitepass to set a site and/or list creator
password and are authenticating with that, see the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/4030613>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 18:53:23 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 09:53:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Icons, email and list creation oh my!
In-Reply-To: <2D3ABAA6-0658-4066-B470-E2B53F2CCBF9@me.com>
References: <50CA52FB-F176-4D96-95D7-8AE96A77A180@me.com>
 <55391292.2090902@msapiro.net> <2D3ABAA6-0658-4066-B470-E2B53F2CCBF9@me.com>
Message-ID: <55392383.2070004@msapiro.net>

On 04/23/2015 08:45 AM, Dr. Mikeal Hughes wrote:
> The page is www.biblematters.net


Are you saying that is the page on which you found "an old help screen
in the mailman home page"?

I can't even access that page - 403.


>> On Apr 23, 2015, at 10:41, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 04/23/2015 05:52 AM, Dr. Mikeal Hughes wrote:
>>> 1. The icons are
>>> not showing up on the bottom of the Web pages. I went to an old help
>>> screen in the mailman home page to find it out dated.
>>
>>
>> Please provide the URL of this page so I can fix it if it's wrong or
>> misleading.
>>
>>
>>> I typed in the
>>> directory /usr/local/apache/icons to the merriment of no such file or
>>> directory. Ok that must have been for apache 1 or something. So I
>>> need to find out where the icons are located now and where I need to
>>> put them for mailman to pick them up.
>>
>>
>> The Icons are in Mailman's misc/ directory. Where you have to copy them
>> is to the directory Apache looks in for /icons/ URLs. Check your Apache
>> config.
>>
> I don?t have an Apache.config. Or can?t locate it. I think it is running under the bible matters.net.conf file.


In Debian/Ubuntu, your apache config is the files in /etc/apache2
including apache2.conf, conf-available/*, conf.d/*, mods-available/* and
sites-available/*

You probably have /etc/apache2/mods-available/alias.conf containing
Alias /icons/ "/usr/share/apache2/icons/" which says
/usr/share/apache2/icons/ is where you should put the mailman.jpg,
PythonPowered.png and gnu-head-tiny.jpg files assuming you haven't
changed the Defaults.py

IMAGE_LOGOS = '/icons/'

setting by overriding it with something else in mm_cfg.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From macmikeal at me.com  Thu Apr 23 18:43:27 2015
From: macmikeal at me.com (Dr. Mikeal Hughes)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 11:43:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forbidden is still there.
Message-ID: <99B9E342-C687-4B18-BD5E-4D256BDA2A14@me.com>

I did discover if I type in www.biblematters.net in my browser I still get the Forbidden

You don't have permission to access / on this server.

Apache/2.4.7 (Ubuntu) Server at www.biblematters.net Port 80

But if I type in http://www.biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo

I get a page that apparently doesn?t update. if I type in http://www.biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/biblematters

I get the Administrator page put my password in and it says Authorization Failed.

Mike

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 19:11:20 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:11:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forbidden is still there.
In-Reply-To: <99B9E342-C687-4B18-BD5E-4D256BDA2A14@me.com>
References: <99B9E342-C687-4B18-BD5E-4D256BDA2A14@me.com>
Message-ID: <553927B8.8090404@msapiro.net>

On 04/23/2015 09:43 AM, Dr. Mikeal Hughes wrote:
> I did discover if I type in www.biblematters.net in my browser I still get the Forbidden
> 
> You don't have permission to access / on this server.
> 
> Apache/2.4.7 (Ubuntu) Server at www.biblematters.net Port 80


This is because of your Apache configuration. Since you seem unable to
work this out yourself, and since I happen to have some free time, if
you tar up /etc/apache2 and send me the tarball (off list), I'll look at
it and suggest corrections.


> But if I type in http://www.biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo
> 
> I get a page that apparently doesn?t update.

What does "apparently doesn?t update" mean? If you mean it doesn't show
your lists, again, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030613>.

> if I type in http://www.biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/biblematters
> 
> I get the Administrator page put my password in and it says Authorization Failed.


That's the listinfo page. Do you mean
<http://www.biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/biblematters>? If so,
the list admin password you set when you created the list should work.
If it doesn't, you could try bin/change_pw (use the --help option for
info) or the script at <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/set_passwd.py> to
set a new one.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Thu Apr 23 21:47:31 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:47:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forbidden is still there.
In-Reply-To: <99B9E342-C687-4B18-BD5E-4D256BDA2A14@me.com>
References: <99B9E342-C687-4B18-BD5E-4D256BDA2A14@me.com>
Message-ID: <1429818451.120347.9.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Thu, 2015-04-23 at 11:43 -0500, Dr. Mikeal Hughes wrote:
> I did discover if I type in www.biblematters.net in my browser I still get the Forbidden
> 
> You don't have permission to access / on this server.
> 
> Apache/2.4.7 (Ubuntu) Server at www.biblematters.net Port 80

You will probably get more information from the Apache error log
file, /var/log/apache2/error.log by default on Ubuntu systems.

> 
> But if I type in http://www.biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo
> 
> I get a page that apparently doesn?t update.

What do you mean, it doesn't update?

> if I type in http://www.biblematters.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/biblematters
> 
> I get the Administrator page put my password in and it says Authorization Failed.

This is an odd URL. Any URL with "listinfo" in it should bring up the
list information page, not the administrator page.

Additionally, you should never need to put "cgi-bin" in the URL for
either the administrator or list information page.

It sounds as if you may have Apache unconfigured or misconfigured for
Mailman. Have you read the instructions at
<http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/node10.html>?  Note
that the reference to /usr/local/mailman/archives/public/ is outdated.
Current installs on Ubuntu use /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From fmouse at fmp.com  Thu Apr 23 22:04:26 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:04:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Documentation error?
Message-ID: <1429819466.120347.18.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

The Mailman installation instructions at
<http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/node10.html> make
reference to the following stanza in the configuration for the Apache
web server.

<Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/">
        AddDefaultCharset Off
</Directory>

Is this correct under _any_ circumstances these days?  My recollection
is that Mailman was revised many years and versions ago to comply more
closely to the Linux FSH and that the appropriate directory is
now /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/

Should this be changed or amended?  Should I file a bug?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 23 22:57:20 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:57:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Documentation error?
In-Reply-To: <1429819466.120347.18.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <1429819466.120347.18.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <55395CB0.9040603@msapiro.net>

On 04/23/2015 01:04 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> The Mailman installation instructions at
> <http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/node10.html> make
> reference to the following stanza in the configuration for the Apache
> web server.
> 
> <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/">
>         AddDefaultCharset Off
> </Directory>
> 
> Is this correct under _any_ circumstances these days?  My recollection
> is that Mailman was revised many years and versions ago to comply more
> closely to the Linux FSH and that the appropriate directory is
> now /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
> 
> Should this be changed or amended?  Should I file a bug?


/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/ is the path that results from a
default configure. To get closer to FHS you can configure with the options

--prefix=/usr/local/lib/mailman

or

--prefix=/usr/lib/mailman

and

--with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman

Full FHS compliance is harder. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/8486953> and
the mailman-developers thread linked therefrom. Note that this is a Red
Hat patch, not standard Mailman.

If you want to file a bug for documentation purposes, feel free, but it
will be marked 'won't fix - wishlist' for MM 2.1.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Apr 24 00:16:21 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 17:16:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Documentation error?
In-Reply-To: <55395CB0.9040603@msapiro.net>
References: <1429819466.120347.18.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <55395CB0.9040603@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1429827381.120347.22.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Thu, 2015-04-23 at 13:57 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> /usr/local/mailman/archives/public/ is the path that results from a
> default configure. To get closer to FHS you can configure with the options
> 
> --prefix=/usr/local/lib/mailman
> 
> or
> 
> --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman
> 
> and
> 
> --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman

I've been copying my configure params from config.log for so long, and
across so many version upgrades, that I've truly forgotten that these
aren't the defaults ;)

> Full FHS compliance is harder. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/8486953> and
> the mailman-developers thread linked therefrom. Note that this is a Red
> Hat patch, not standard Mailman.
> 
> If you want to file a bug for documentation purposes, feel free, but it
> will be marked 'won't fix - wishlist' for MM 2.1.

Thanks Mark.  I'll leave it be.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From gaja.php at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 09:19:26 2015
From: gaja.php at gmail.com (Selva Gaja)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:49:26 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can I take a all users from all mailman lists in my
	domin.
Message-ID: <CAAzGjDSOc2nUxn486C1kBNG2484s4uN+vknzC0kJZjHi7g3_Sw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
How can I take a all user list from all mailman lists.
Is there any command? Please help me out.

I want to all the mailman users in my domain.


-- 
Thanks and Regards,

Selva Gajendran.S

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr 24 16:41:27 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 07:41:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can I take a all users from all mailman lists
 in my domin.
In-Reply-To: <CAAzGjDSOc2nUxn486C1kBNG2484s4uN+vknzC0kJZjHi7g3_Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAzGjDSOc2nUxn486C1kBNG2484s4uN+vknzC0kJZjHi7g3_Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <553A5617.5060400@msapiro.net>

On 04/24/2015 12:19 AM, Selva Gaja wrote:
> Hi,
> How can I take a all user list from all mailman lists.
> Is there any command? Please help me out.
> 
> I want to all the mailman users in my domain.


To get a list by member, do

 /path/to/mailman/bin/find_member .

The dot at the end is actually a regexp that matches every member. See

 /path/to/mailman/bin/find_member --help

To get a list by list (with dupes), do

for l in `/path/to/mailman/bin/list_lists --bare`; do
  echo Members of list $l
  /path/to/mailman/bin/list_members $l
done


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From bsfinkel at att.net  Fri Apr 24 20:24:43 2015
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 13:24:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Looking for help
In-Reply-To: <FD495BAE-063C-4C43-82E9-03D7DE535F57@me.com>
References: <FD495BAE-063C-4C43-82E9-03D7DE535F57@me.com>
Message-ID: <553A8A6B.90100@att.net>

On 4/21/2015 8:35 AM, Dr. Mikeal Hughes wrote:
> I have tried to install Mailman on my Ubuntu 14.04 Server. It also has a Website virtually hosted on the server as well. I can?t get it to go and am getting some error messages. There are a lot of user install guides on the internet for this and apparently I tried using the wrong one. Could someone contact me off list that might be willing to help me get this up and running?
>
>
>
>
> Mikeal R. Hughes, D.Min., Th.D., Ph.D.
> Minister - Manteno church of Christ
> www.mikealrhughes.com	
> mail at mikealrhughes.com

People on this list might be able to assist you if you posted the
error messages that you have received.

--Barry Finkel

From dbaker at casrai.org  Sat Apr 25 00:59:08 2015
From: dbaker at casrai.org (David Baker (CASRAI))
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 18:59:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Seeking Mailman consultant
Message-ID: <C1C6666D-3C19-4A68-9BA0-DB912920D210@casrai.org>

Hi there,

We are leading a small group of non-profit organizations joining together to collectively share common services to help us all maintain effective but independent web presences. We have a dedicated server and Mailman is an important tool in our plans.

We are seeking a Mailman expert who would be interested in providing paid services to us to ensure we can install/maintain new instances of Mailman as new nonprofits join and who knows the config and feature-set well enough to help us all get the most out of this great tool.

We are based in Canada but you can be from anywhere. 

To avoid cluttering this list I assume a direct reply is best. 

I look forward to hearing from someone.

/David



From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr 25 17:42:10 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 08:42:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: <201504230449.t3N4n1bK002684@fido.openend.se>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se><5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se><553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
 <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se><55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>
 <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se><553877E9.40402@msapiro.net>
 <201504230449.t3N4n1bK002684@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <553BB5D2.6030102@msapiro.net>

On 04/22/2015 09:49 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> Maybe at the point where we mention 'you must have cookies enabled'
> we should mention that load balancers can cause problems?


What Stephen said plus, the stuff about cookies is on admin, moderator
and private archive logon pages which someone who goes to the listinfo
page to subscribe doesn't see.  Of course, you are free to edit the
listinfo page(s) for your list(s) via the web admin UI "Edit the public
HTML pages and text files" link and add whatever text you want there.

As I said before, this is reported as a bug
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1447445> which is "fixed" for
the next release, and which fix has been installed for the
mail.python.org Mailman. The fix is for IPv4 addresses, only require the
first 3 octets to match and for IPv6 addresses, only require the address
up to the last : to match. This would have avoided the issue in your
user's case, and I think will avoid it in most if not all cases. Also,
the error messages have been augmented to try to make them point more
directly to the problem.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr 25 18:04:16 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:04:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Seeking Mailman consultant
In-Reply-To: <C1C6666D-3C19-4A68-9BA0-DB912920D210@casrai.org>
References: <C1C6666D-3C19-4A68-9BA0-DB912920D210@casrai.org>
Message-ID: <553BBB00.8080605@msapiro.net>

On 04/24/2015 03:59 PM, David Baker (CASRAI) wrote:
> 
> We are seeking a Mailman expert who would be interested in providing paid services to us to ensure we can install/maintain new instances of Mailman as new nonprofits join and who knows the config and feature-set well enough to help us all get the most out of this great tool.


It's somewhat dated and incomplete, but see
<http://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20consulting%20services>.

And for those of you who might offer such services, see
<http://wiki.list.org/FrontPage> about obtaining write access to the
wiki so you can add yourself to the page.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dbaker at casrai.org  Sat Apr 25 18:07:39 2015
From: dbaker at casrai.org (David Baker)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 12:07:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Seeking Mailman consultant
In-Reply-To: <553BBB00.8080605@msapiro.net>
References: <C1C6666D-3C19-4A68-9BA0-DB912920D210@casrai.org>
 <553BBB00.8080605@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CACypjzwbT-Hr=eu+oAz03vrx3u-qseraEmJSNqw-Ua0qRSTd_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Mark. In trying to be a good list citizen I did first look at that
list and FAQs and archives but not find what I needed.

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 04/24/2015 03:59 PM, David Baker (CASRAI) wrote:
> >
> > We are seeking a Mailman expert who would be interested in providing
> paid services to us to ensure we can install/maintain new instances of
> Mailman as new nonprofits join and who knows the config and feature-set
> well enough to help us all get the most out of this great tool.
>
>
> It's somewhat dated and incomplete, but see
> <http://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20consulting%20services>.
>
> And for those of you who might offer such services, see
> <http://wiki.list.org/FrontPage> about obtaining write access to the
> wiki so you can add yourself to the page.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dbaker%40casrai.org
>



-- 

David Baker
Executive Director

613-518-1918

dbaker at casrai.org
@casrai_ed
@casrai
dbakerskype

http://casrai.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmx7U9-i3Gg
http://reconnect.casrai.org
http://dictionary.casrai.org

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Apr 26 01:43:06 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 08:43:06 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe
	to	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: <553BB5D2.6030102@msapiro.net>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se>
 <5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se>
 <5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se>
 <553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
 <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se>
 <55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>
 <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se>
 <553877E9.40402@msapiro.net>
 <201504230449.t3N4n1bK002684@fido.openend.se>
 <553BB5D2.6030102@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87k2wzrcz9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > As I said before, this is reported as a bug
 > <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1447445> which is "fixed" for
 > the next release, and which fix has been installed for the
 > mail.python.org Mailman.

Note that the RFC-ly correct fix would involve a reverse lookup, which
is expensive.  And I wouldn't be surprised if that failed too for many
configurations in practice.


From lac at openend.se  Sun Apr 26 09:07:54 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 09:07:54 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>
 of "Sat, 25 Apr 2015 08:42:10 -0700." <553BB5D2.6030102@msapiro.net>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se><5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se><553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
 <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se><55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>
 <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se><553877E9.40402@msapiro.net>
 <201504230449.t3N4n1bK002684@fido.openend.se><553BB5D2.6030102@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201504260707.t3Q77sPS026990@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Sat, 25 Apr 2015 08:42:10 -0700, Mark Sapiro writes:
>On 04/22/2015 09:49 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
>> Maybe at the point where we mention 'you must have cookies enabled'
>> we should mention that load balancers can cause problems?
>
>
>What Stephen said plus, the stuff about cookies is on admin, moderator
>and private archive logon pages which someone who goes to the listinfo
>page to subscribe doesn't see.  Of course, you are free to edit the
>listinfo page(s) for your list(s) via the web admin UI "Edit the public
>HTML pages and text files" link and add whatever text you want there.
>
>As I said before, this is reported as a bug
><https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1447445> which is "fixed" for
>the next release, and which fix has been installed for the
>mail.python.org Mailman. The fix is for IPv4 addresses, only require the
>first 3 octets to match and for IPv6 addresses, only require the address
>up to the last : to match. This would have avoided the issue in your
>user's case, and I think will avoid it in most if not all cases. Also,
>the error messages have been augmented to try to make them point more
>directly to the problem.
>
>-- 
>Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lac at openend.se  Sun Apr 26 09:29:38 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 09:29:38 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Seeking Mailman consultant
In-Reply-To: Message from "David Baker (CASRAI)" <dbaker@casrai.org> of "Fri,
 24 Apr 2015 18:59:08 -0400." <C1C6666D-3C19-4A68-9BA0-DB912920D210@casrai.org>
References: <C1C6666D-3C19-4A68-9BA0-DB912920D210@casrai.org>
Message-ID: <201504260729.t3Q7Tcmn027716@fido.openend.se>

If you do not find somebody here, you might try the newly re-launched
python jobs board. https://www.python.org/community/jobs/howto/

If you post there, please make sure that you mention how many hours
a week you expect this job to take, so people can know if this is a
full time, part time, or once-in-a-blue-moon sort of opportunity.

Laura

From lac at openend.se  Sun Apr 26 10:19:33 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 10:19:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Somebody could not subscribe to
	pypy-dev@python.org
In-Reply-To: Message from Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> of "Sun,
 26 Apr 2015 09:07:54 +0200." <201504260707.t3Q77sPS026990@fido.openend.se>
References: <201504212255.t3LMtbrf014504@fido.openend.se><5536DDE2.8090603@msapiro.net>
 <201504220453.t3M4rKl2025076@fido.openend.se><5537C731.1040900@msapiro.net>
 <201504222034.t3MKYDc0020291@fido.openend.se><553813C8.6010201@msapiro.net>
 <201504222211.t3MMBFlj023501@fido.openend.se><55383441.3030302@msapiro.net>
 <201504230359.t3N3xQ8s000408@fido.openend.se><553877E9.40402@msapiro.net>
 <201504230449.t3N4n1bK002684@fido.openend.se><553BB5D2.6030102@msapiro.net><201504260707.t3Q77sPS026990@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <201504260819.t3Q8JXiM029606@fido.openend.se>

Ooops, machine crashed, and mail got sent ...

Instead of that long quoting of what Mark said, that was supposed to be:

"Thank you Mark."

Apologies, apologies.

Laura


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Apr 26 17:43:36 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 08:43:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Seeking Mailman consultant
In-Reply-To: <201504260729.t3Q7Tcmn027716@fido.openend.se>
References: <C1C6666D-3C19-4A68-9BA0-DB912920D210@casrai.org>
 <201504260729.t3Q7Tcmn027716@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <553D07A8.5070306@msapiro.net>

On 04/26/2015 12:29 AM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> If you do not find somebody here, you might try the newly re-launched
> python jobs board. https://www.python.org/community/jobs/howto/
> 
> If you post there, please make sure that you mention how many hours
> a week you expect this job to take, so people can know if this is a
> full time, part time, or once-in-a-blue-moon sort of opportunity.


Thanks Laura. I have added this info to the wiki page at
<http://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20consulting%20services>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lac at openend.se  Mon Apr 27 11:31:39 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 11:31:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Seeking Mailman consultant
In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>
 of "Sun, 26 Apr 2015 08:43:36 -0700." <553D07A8.5070306@msapiro.net>
References: <C1C6666D-3C19-4A68-9BA0-DB912920D210@casrai.org>
 <201504260729.t3Q7Tcmn027716@fido.openend.se><553D07A8.5070306@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201504270931.t3R9VdLp006536@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Sun, 26 Apr 2015 08:43:36 -0700, Mark Sapiro writes:
>Thanks Laura. I have added this info to the wiki page at
><http://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20consulting%20services>.

I should have thought to do that myself.  _Thank you_.

Laura

From jsekora at csail.mit.edu  Mon Apr 27 23:34:29 2015
From: jsekora at csail.mit.edu (Jay Sekora)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:34:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface
 look like?
In-Reply-To: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
References: <95F2E634-0E89-4688-A830-930ED5B74957@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <553EAB65.9090003@csail.mit.edu>

Sorry I'm getting to this so late...

On 04/02/2015 03:48 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:
> What?s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface?

Well, the thing I find most frustrating about the current (2.X) Mailman
web interface is the "Adminsitrative Database Results" page.  I manage a
bunch of moderated lists that get large numbers of messages a day, with
varying ratios of junk (spam, off-topic-for-list, misdirected,
unauthorized, etc.) vs. legitimate messages that should be approved.
The current design is very space-inefficient for held messages, so I can
only see three held messages (more precisely, the accumulated held
messages for three senders) on the screen at once.  If I'm scrolling
through hundreds of messages like that, it's very very hard to keep my
place, make sure I'm clicking on the correct line, and make sure I
haven't missed any messages.  (For high-volume lists, that means that
"Discard all messages marked _Defer_" is too dangerous to use.)

Also, because messages appear in an unpredictable order, it's very hard
to see patterns.  I can see at a glance if I got three messages from a
particular address, but I can't see at a glance if I got three messages
with subjects starting "Curso-Taller" or "Urgent!" or from the same domain.

So what I would like would be a much more space-efficient summary page,
with one or at most two lines per message, so I could get 20 or 30
messages in view at once, with sortable columns.  Something like (mocked
up in plain-text, and assume each message is on one line):

defer(_) accept(_) reject(_) discard(_) more[V] |
admin at asesoriascreativ...[V] | Curso-Taller: Como hacer Presentaciones...[V]

defer(_) accept(_) reject(_) discard(_) more[V] | norelpy at example.ro[V]
| Von Dr. Mark Smith[V]

defer(_) accept(_) reject(_) discard(_) more[V] | info at microsoft.com [V]
| Vouz avez gagne le prix Microsoft $4,000,000[V]

where the things I've marked with [V] (that's supposed to be a
down-arrow) are links that provide more information.  (This actually
seems to be a great place for JavaScript, which I normally hate; if
JavaScript is disabled those links could all go to a page with more
detailed information about the message, like the [1], [2], etc. links
now, but if the user has JavaScript enabled they could just expand the
table to insert the information below the current entry.  Or maybe
there's a way to do that with just CSS.)

The table would be sortable by column (and ideally, maybe by things that
aren't columns, like the bare domain of the From: line, the message
size, whether the message has attachments, and so on).

A related frustration is that the admindb page, and its single-message
view, don't handle encoded data very usefully.  That's obviously a very
tricky thing, given that you can't trust the sender to have encoded
headers or bodies validly, and especially in the case of attachments the
senders are likely to be malicious.  I don't know that I would want data
decoded *by default*, but it would be nice to be *able* to decode
headers and text attachments.  (Similarly, for HTML-only messages, a
textual summary of what the top of the message is going to look like
would be useful, since now, the extract you can see is likely to be all
stylesheet and formatting junk, even for legitimate messages from
Windows users.)  And if a header or body *fails* to decode, that's
useful information too.

Currently, I'm mostly using the command-line "listadmin" tool, which
happens to present an interface pretty similar to what I'm talking
about, but I've wanted a much more compact moderation interface since
long before I knew about listadmin.

I'd love to see the default admindb pages in MM3 be easier to manage.

Jay


From gaja.php at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 17:25:29 2015
From: gaja.php at gmail.com (Selva Gaja)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 20:55:29 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help: Api for remove list
Message-ID: <CAAzGjDTF8ydTWua=uv3ypXbExeQzeMmptnukk-K+9CFDMw8eKg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I can remove a mailman list from this terminal command > * rmlist -a
listname*

Is there any API for removing the Mailman List.

-- 
Thanks and Regards,

Selva Gajendran.S

From bcanty at apsa.org  Tue Apr 28 17:33:47 2015
From: bcanty at apsa.org (Brian Canty)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 15:33:47 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web Interface
Message-ID: <6CCC345339CE2D4085B5D3D82F7B3A9F93B0FD@APSASBS2K11.APSA.local>

Does anyone know if there is a web interface to make list administration easier for the users?


Brian Canty
Computer Information Systems
The American Psychoanalytic Association
309 East 49th St., New York, NY 10017
212-752-0450 ext. 17 | apsa.org<http://www.apsa.org/>
[https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQ7Kib3E-SNRpX6f3JkeBuASADejyfQMFOfbJnoHFXYBApgbDJ]<https://twitter.com/psychoanalysis_>     [https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRk4KOTDFQ-zOC0x0HiCqzRIVhsZaxApOlF_zcpoW9sI6d4AQ16] <https://www.facebook.com/American.psychoanalysis>

[Pre Reg Banner - Large correct dates]


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 28 18:17:11 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 09:17:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help: Api for remove list
In-Reply-To: <CAAzGjDTF8ydTWua=uv3ypXbExeQzeMmptnukk-K+9CFDMw8eKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAzGjDTF8ydTWua=uv3ypXbExeQzeMmptnukk-K+9CFDMw8eKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <553FB287.9060801@msapiro.net>

On 04/28/2015 08:25 AM, Selva Gaja wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I can remove a mailman list from this terminal command > * rmlist -a
> listname*
> 
> Is there any API for removing the Mailman List.
> 


It depends what you mean by API. There is the command you show above,
and there are the underlying things that rmlist does, but I suspect you
want to know if there is a way to remove a list from Mailman's GUI.

If you set

OWNERS_CAN_DELETE_THEIR_OWN_LISTS = Yes

in mm_cfg.py, every page in Mailman's admin GUI will have a "Delete this
mailing list (requires confirmation)" link under "Other Administrative
Activities". Without this setting, the link is not there and attempts to
remove a list via the http(s)://example.com/mailman/rmlist/LISTNAME CGI
will fail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 28 18:26:26 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 09:26:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web Interface
In-Reply-To: <6CCC345339CE2D4085B5D3D82F7B3A9F93B0FD@APSASBS2K11.APSA.local>
References: <6CCC345339CE2D4085B5D3D82F7B3A9F93B0FD@APSASBS2K11.APSA.local>
Message-ID: <553FB4B2.7090407@msapiro.net>

On 04/28/2015 08:33 AM, Brian Canty wrote:
> Does anyone know if there is a web interface to make list administration easier for the users?

Are you asking about MM 2.1 or 3?

And do you mean users as in list members or list admins?

For MM 2.1, for list members there is
<http(s)://example.com/mailman/options/LISTNAME/user at example.net>
(linked from <http(s)://example.com/mailman/listinfo/LISTNAME/>, and for
list admins there is <http(s)://example.com/mailman/admin/LISTNAME>.

For MM3 there is Postorius whhch is a Django based web UI intended to
enable full control of Mailman, although in some things it's still a
work in progress.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From barry at list.org  Wed Apr 29 00:00:05 2015
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:00:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ANNOUNCING: GNU Mailman 3.0
Message-ID: <20150428180005.6337c2a1@limelight.wooz.org>

Twenty years ago, I attended the first Python Workshop at NIST with about 20
other old school Pythonistas.  Earlier this month I attended PyCon 2015 in
Montreal.  PyCon is always exhilarating, but this one was incredibly special
for me personally, because my son was on spring break and joined me for the
first half of the conference.

Both the Python language and its community have grown a little bit <wink> in
the intervening years, but what hasn't changed is our love of the language,
and the truly amazing people we share that love with.  The Python community
really is one of the very best open source communities on the planet.

The best community inside that great Python family has to be the GNU Mailman
team.  They're all smart and cool, fun to hang out with, and fun to hack with.
With diverse backgrounds, each and every one are good friends and valued
technical peers.  As has been the case for the last few years, we've sprinted
on Mailman 3, getting lots of great work done, but never quite getting
something we were satisfied enough with to release.  The first alpha of
Mailman 3 was released a little over 7 years ago.

And so I'm here --and on behalf of Abhilash, Aur?lien, Florian, John, Mark,
Stephen, Sumana, Terri, our GSoC students, and all the great people who have
contributed over the years-- to proudly announce the official release of GNU
Mailman 3.0, code named "Show Don't Tell".

Mailman 3 is really a suite of 5 tools:

 * The core, which provides the mail delivery engine, the unified user model,
   moderation and modification of email messages, and interfaces to external
   archivers;

 * Postorius, our new Django-based web user interface for users and list
   administrators;

 * HyperKitty, our new Django-based web archiver, providing rich access to the
   historical record of mailing list traffic;

 * mailman.client, the official Python bindings to the core's REST API;

 * mailman-bundler, a set of scripts to make it easy to deploy the full
   suite inside Python virtual environments.

What's new about Mailman 3?  Well, lots!  Some highlights include:

 * Backed by a relational database;

 * True support for multiple domains, with no cross-domain mailing list naming
   restrictions;

 * One user account to manage all your subscriptions on a site;

 * The core's functionality exposed through an administrative REST+JSON API;

 * All passwords hashed by default, and no monthly password reminders!

 * Users can post to lists via the web interface;

 * Built-in archive searching!

and more.  Tons more.

There will be things you love about Mailman 3, and things you don't like.
You'll glimpse great possibilities and glaring holes.  You'll be excited and
frustrated.  Such is life with an all-volunteer free software project.

For the things you like, and the exciting possibilities, we encourage you to
experiment, to do wacky things we haven't thought of, integrate it with your
own tools, or just carefully go about deploying a Mailman 3 system.  Tell us
how you're using it!

For the things you don't like, we invite you to join us.  Come to the mailing
list <mailman-developers at python.org> and talk with us.  Submit bug reports and
pull requests.  Help us close the gaps and make Mailman 3 better.

Whether your interests are for Internet RFCs, web site development,
operations, or you just want to find a fun Python project to hack on with cool
people, as they say, contributions are welcome.

See the release notes, as well as links to download each component:

    http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3

You probably want to start with the bundler and let it grab and install all
the other parts.

More information is available at:

    http://www.list.org
    http://wiki.list.org
    http://launchpad.net/mailman
    #mailman on freenode
    mailman-developers at python.org

Happy Mailman Day,
-Barry & the Mailman Cabal
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From stephane at wirtel.be  Wed Apr 29 00:02:49 2015
From: stephane at wirtel.be (=?utf-8?q?St=C3=A9phane?= Wirtel)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 00:02:49 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ANNOUNCING: GNU Mailman 3.0
In-Reply-To: <20150428180005.6337c2a1@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <20150428180005.6337c2a1@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <4D0DEC17-5730-4013-95FA-90E1C1731837@wirtel.be>

Congrats !
On 29 Apr 2015, at 0:00, Barry Warsaw wrote:

> Twenty years ago, I attended the first Python Workshop at NIST with 
> about 20
> other old school Pythonistas.  Earlier this month I attended PyCon 
> 2015 in
> Montreal.  PyCon is always exhilarating, but this one was incredibly 
> special
> for me personally, because my son was on spring break and joined me 
> for the
> first half of the conference.
>
> Both the Python language and its community have grown a little bit 
> <wink> in
> the intervening years, but what hasn't changed is our love of the 
> language,
> and the truly amazing people we share that love with.  The Python 
> community
> really is one of the very best open source communities on the planet.
>
> The best community inside that great Python family has to be the GNU 
> Mailman
> team.  They're all smart and cool, fun to hang out with, and fun to 
> hack with.
> With diverse backgrounds, each and every one are good friends and 
> valued
> technical peers.  As has been the case for the last few years, we've 
> sprinted
> on Mailman 3, getting lots of great work done, but never quite getting
> something we were satisfied enough with to release.  The first alpha 
> of
> Mailman 3 was released a little over 7 years ago.
>
> And so I'm here --and on behalf of Abhilash, Aur?lien, Florian, John, 
> Mark,
> Stephen, Sumana, Terri, our GSoC students, and all the great people 
> who have
> contributed over the years-- to proudly announce the official release 
> of GNU
> Mailman 3.0, code named "Show Don't Tell".
>
> Mailman 3 is really a suite of 5 tools:
>
> * The core, which provides the mail delivery engine, the unified user 
> model,
> moderation and modification of email messages, and interfaces to 
> external
> archivers;
>
> * Postorius, our new Django-based web user interface for users and 
> list
> administrators;
>
> * HyperKitty, our new Django-based web archiver, providing rich access 
> to the
> historical record of mailing list traffic;
>
> * mailman.client, the official Python bindings to the core's REST API;
>
> * mailman-bundler, a set of scripts to make it easy to deploy the full
> suite inside Python virtual environments.
>
> What's new about Mailman 3?  Well, lots!  Some highlights include:
>
> * Backed by a relational database;
>
> * True support for multiple domains, with no cross-domain mailing list 
> naming
> restrictions;
>
> * One user account to manage all your subscriptions on a site;
>
> * The core's functionality exposed through an administrative REST+JSON 
> API;
>
> * All passwords hashed by default, and no monthly password reminders!
>
> * Users can post to lists via the web interface;
>
> * Built-in archive searching!
>
> and more.  Tons more.
>
> There will be things you love about Mailman 3, and things you don't 
> like.
> You'll glimpse great possibilities and glaring holes.  You'll be 
> excited and
> frustrated.  Such is life with an all-volunteer free software project.
>
> For the things you like, and the exciting possibilities, we encourage 
> you to
> experiment, to do wacky things we haven't thought of, integrate it 
> with your
> own tools, or just carefully go about deploying a Mailman 3 system.  
> Tell us
> how you're using it!
>
> For the things you don't like, we invite you to join us.  Come to the 
> mailing
> list <mailman-developers at python.org> and talk with us.  Submit bug 
> reports and
> pull requests.  Help us close the gaps and make Mailman 3 better.
>
> Whether your interests are for Internet RFCs, web site development,
> operations, or you just want to find a fun Python project to hack on 
> with cool
> people, as they say, contributions are welcome.
>
> See the release notes, as well as links to download each component:
>
>  http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3
>
> You probably want to start with the bundler and let it grab and 
> install all
> the other parts.
>
> More information is available at:
>
>  http://www.list.org
>  http://wiki.list.org
>  http://launchpad.net/mailman
>  #mailman on freenode
>  mailman-developers at python.org
>
> Happy Mailman Day,
> -Barry & the Mailman Cabal
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/stephane%40wirtel.be


--
St?phane Wirtel - http://wirtel.be - @matrixise

From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 01:52:03 2015
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:52:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ANNOUNCING: GNU Mailman 3.0
In-Reply-To: <20150428180005.6337c2a1@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <20150428180005.6337c2a1@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <CANc-5Uw+hj4N=ebqkc2GP1LxuEvq_1ud8LVaRCsySv07SnGMYA@mail.gmail.com>

Barry,

Congratulations, you mail d(a)emon, you! And all the other responsible
d(a)emons. Has it really been 20 years since the NIST workshop?

Skip

From samarta at ci.uc.pt  Wed Apr 29 15:40:19 2015
From: samarta at ci.uc.pt (=?utf-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_S=C3=A1_Marta?=)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 14:40:19 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3.0 Installation Manual
Message-ID: <5AAA3FA1-1158-4859-9B4A-2AA933E096CC@ci.uc.pt>

Hi,

Where can I get the Mailman 3.0 Installation Manual  ?




Regards,


Jo?o




From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr 29 16:13:55 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 07:13:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3.0 Installation Manual
In-Reply-To: <5AAA3FA1-1158-4859-9B4A-2AA933E096CC@ci.uc.pt>
References: <5AAA3FA1-1158-4859-9B4A-2AA933E096CC@ci.uc.pt>
Message-ID: <5540E723.3070600@msapiro.net>

On 04/29/2015 06:40 AM, Jo?o S? Marta wrote:
> 
> Where can I get the Mailman 3.0 Installation Manual  ?


See <http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3>. There are links there to the
project pages at Pypi and those have links to their docs, particularly
<http://pythonhosted.org//mailman> and
<http://mailman-bundler.readthedocs.org/>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan