From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Mar  1 02:04:02 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 17:04:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.19 release
Message-ID: <54F26582.6090801@msapiro.net>

I am very pleased to announce the release Mailman 2.1.19 final.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.7 is recommended.

This release has several new features, some newly implemented and some
backported from the now truly defunct 2.2 branch - there is nothing left
in that branch that isn't in this release.

There are also bug fixes.

See the attached README for more details.

Associated with those changes are many things that have i18n impacts
including new and modified strings in the message catalog, a new
adminaddrchgack.txt template and a minor change to the
admindbdetails.html template.

I strongly encourage anyone with an interest in translations of Mailman
to get this release and help with updating the translations.

This is the final release of Mailman 2.1.19, but if I receive additional
i18n updates, I will release those later.

There have been a few changes since the first candidate release, some of
which were in the second and third candidates.

- There have been updates to the Romanian, Russian, Polish, Japanese and
Interlingua translations.
- Mailman's character set for both Romanian and Russian has been changed
to utf-8 and Mailman's version updater has been augmented to try to find
strings in the old character set in list configurations and convert them.
- The admindb held message display has been improved to not break
multi-byte characters and not abandon conversion to the list's character
set on an invalid character.
- There was a new subscribe_auto_approval feature in the first release
candidate and this is augmented to accept the @listname syntax.
- Organization: headers are now removed from posts to anonymous lists.
- The display of real names on the list roster added in the first
release candidate has been made conditional on a new
ROSTER_DISPLAY_REALNAME mm_cfg.py switch that defaults to No due to
privacy concerns.

Information on these and other changes in this release are in the
attached README and in the NEWS file in the release tarball.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman
http://mailman.sourceforge.net/

Mailman 2.1.19 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
2.2 Branch Backports (released in conjunction with 2.1.19)

  The following New Features and Bug Fixes have been in an "unofficial,
  never to be released" Mailman 2.2 branch for several years. Until now,
  they were never implemented on the official 2.1 branch because of their
  i18n impacts.  Given that there have been a number of i18n impacting
  changes due to DMARC mitigations in the last few releases, it has been
  decided to backport these as well.

  All of these changes have been running in production on several lists
  for years without problems other than untranslated strings, so they should
  be reasonably "bug free".

  New Features

    - There is a new list attribute 'subscribe_auto_approval' which is a list
      of email addresses and regular expressions matching email addresses
      whose subscriptions are exempt from admin approval.  (LP: #266609)

    - Confirmed member change of address is logged in the 'subscribe' log,
      and if admin_notify_mchanges is true, a notice is sent to the list
      owner using a new adminaddrchgack.txt template.

    - Added an 'automate' option to bin/newlist to send the notice to the
      admin without the prompt.

    - The processing of Topics regular expressions has changed. Previously the
      Topics regexp was compiled in verbose mode but not documented as such
      which caused some confusion.  Also, the documentation indicated that
      topic keywords could be entered one per line, but these entries were not
      handled properly.  Topics regexps are now compiled in non-verbose mode
      and multi-line entries are 'ored'.  Existing Topics regexps will be
      converted when the list is updated so they will continue to work.

    - Added real name display to the web roster.  (LP: #266754)


  Bug fixes and other patches

    - Changed the response to an invalid confirmation to be more generic.
      Not all confirmations are subscription requests.

    - Changed the default nonmember_rejection_notice to be more user friendly.
      (LP: #418728)

    - Added "If you are a list member" qualification to some messages from the
      options login page.  (LP: #266442)

    - Changed the 'Approve' wording in the admindbdetails.html template to
      'Accept/Approve' for better agreement with the button labels.

    - Added '(by thread)' to the previous and next message links in the
      archive to emphasize that even if you got to the message from a
      subject, date or author index, previous and next are still by thread.

2.1.19 (28-Feb-2015)

  New Features

    - The subscribe_auto_approval feature backported from the 2.2 branch and
      described above has been enhanced to accept entries of the form
      @listname to auto approve members of another list.  (LP: #1417093)

    - There is a new list attribute dmarc_wrapped_message_text and a
      DEFAULT_DMARC_WRAPPED_MESSAGE_TEXT setting to set the default for new
      lists.  This text is added to a message which is wrapped because of
      dmarc_moderation_action in a separate text/plain part that precedes the
      message/rfc822 part containing the original message.  It can be used to
      provide an explanation of why the message was wrapped or similar info.

    - There is a new list attribute equivalent_domains and a
      DEFAULT_EQUIVALENT_DOMAINS setting to set the default for new lists which
      in turn defaults to the empty string.  This provides a way to specify one
      or more groups of domains, e.g., mac.com, me.com, icloud.com, which are
      considered equivalent for validating list membership for posting and
      moderation purposes.

    - There is a new WEB_HEAD_ADD setting to specify text to be added to the
      <HEAD> section of Mailman's internally generated web pages.  This doesn't
      apply to pages built from templates, but in those cases, custom templates
      can be created.  (LP: #1409396)

    - There is a new DEFAULT_SUBSCRIBE_OR_INVITE setting.  Set this to Yes
      to make the default selection on the admin Mass Subscriptions page
      Invite rather than Subscribe.  (LP: #1404511)

    - There is a new list attribute in the Bounce processing section.
      bounce_notify_owner_on_bounce_increment if set to Yes will cause
      Mailman to notify the list owner on every bounce that increments a
      list member's score but doesn't result in a probe or disable.  There
      is a new configuration setting setting
      DEFAULT_BOUNCE_NOTIFY_OWNER_ON_BOUNCE_INCREMENT to set the default
      for new lists.  This in turn defaults to No.  (LP: #1382150)

  Changed behavior

    - Mailman's log files, request.pck files and heldmsg-* files are no
      longer created world readable to protect against access by untrusted
      local users.  Note that permissions on existing log files won't be
      changed so if you are concerned about this and don't rotate logs or
      have a logrotate process that creates new log files instead of letting
      Mailman create them, you will need to address that.  (LP: #1327404)

  Other changes

    - The Python Powered logo image has been replaced in the misc/ directory
      in the source distribution.  Depending on how you've installed these
      images, you may need to copy PythonPowered.png from the misc/ directory
      in the source or from the $prefix/icons/ installed directory to another
      location for your web server.  (LP: #1408575)

  i18n

    - The Polish translation has been updated by Stefan Plewako.

    - The Interlingua translation has been updated by Martijn Dekker.

    - The Japanese message catalog has been updated by SATOH Fumiyasu.

    - Mailman's character set for Romanian has been changed from iso-8859-2
      to utf-8 and the templates and messages recoded.  This change will
      require running 'bin/arch --wipe' on any existing Romanian language
      lists in order to recode the list's archives, and will require recoding
      any edited templates in lists/LISTNAME/ro/*, templates/DOMAIN/ro/* and
      templates/site/ro/*.  It may also require recoding any existing
      iso-8859-2 text in list attributes.  (LP: #1418735)

    - Mailman's character set for Russian has been changed from koi8-r to
      utf-8 and the templates and messages recoded.  This change will
      require running 'bin/arch --wipe' on any existing Russian language
      lists in order to recode the list's archives, and will require recoding
      any edited templates in lists/LISTNAME/ru/*, templates/DOMAIN/ru/* and
      templates/site/ru/*.  It may also require recoding any existing koi8-r
      text in list attributes.  (LP: #1418448)

    - Mailman's versions.py has been augmented to help with the above two
      character set changes.  The first time a list with preferred_language
      of Romanian or Russian is accessed or upon upgrade to this release,
      any list attributes which have string values such as description, info,
      welcome_msg, etc. that appear to be in the old character set will be
      converted to utf-8.  This is done recursively for the values (but not
      the keys) of dictionary attributes and the elements of list and tuple
      attributes.

    - The Russian message catalog and templates have been further updated by
      Danil Smirnov.

    - The Romanian message catalog has been updated.  (LP: #1415489)

    - The Russian templates have been updated by Danil Smirnov.  (LP: #1403462)

    - The Japanese translation has been updated by SATOH Fumiyasu.
      (LP: #1402989)

    - A minor change in the French translation of a listinfo subscribe form
      message has been made.  (LP: #1331194)

  Bug fixes and other patches

    - Because of privacy concerns with the 2.2 backport adding real name to
      list rosters, this is controlled by a new ROSTER_DISPLAY_REALNAME
      setting that defaults to No.  You may wish to set this to Yes in
      mm_cfg.py.

    - Organization: headers are now unconditionally removed from posts to
      anonymous lists.  Regexps in ANONYMOUS_LIST_KEEP_HEADERS weren't kept
      if the regexp included the trailing ':'.  This is fixed too.
      (LP: #1419132)

    - The admindb interface has been fixed so the the detail message body
      display doesn't lose part of a multi-byte character, and characters which
      are invalid in the message's charset are replaced rather than the whole
      body not being converted to the display charset.  (LP: #1415406)

    - Fixed a bug in bin/rmlist that would throw an exception or just fail to
      remove held message files for a list with regexp special characters in
      its name.  (LP:#1414864)

    - When applying DMARC mitigations, CookHeaders now adds the original From:
      to Cc: rather than Reply-To: in some cases to make MUA 'reply' and
      'reply all' more consistent with the non-DMARC cases.  (LP: #1407098)

    - The Subject: of the list welcome message wasn't always in the user's
      preferred language.  Fixed.  (LP: #1400988)

    - Accept email command in Subject: prefixed with Re: or similar with no
      intervening space.  (LP: #1400200)

    - Fixed a UnicodeDecodeError that could occur in the web admin interface
      if 'text' valued attributes have unicode values.  (LP: #1397170)

    - We now catch the NotAMemberError exception thrown if an authenticated
      unsubscribe is submitted from the user options page for a nonmember.
      (LP: #1390653)

    - Fixed an archiving bug that would cause messages with 'Subject: Re:'
      only to be indexed in the archives without a link to the message.
      (LP: #1388614)

    - The vette log entry for a message discarded by a handler now includes
      the list name and the name of the handler.  (LP: #558096)

    - The options CGI now rejects all but HTTP GET and POST requests.
      (LP: #1372199)

    - A list's poster password will now be accepted on an Urgent: header.
      (LP: #1371678)

    - Fixed a bug which caused a setting of 2 for REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS to be
      ignored.  (LP: #1363278)

    - Renamed messages/sr/readme.sr to README.sr.  (LP: #1360616)

    - Moved the dmarc_moderation_action checks from the Moderate handler to
      the SpamDetect handler so that the Reject and Discard actions will be
      done before the message might be held by header_filter_rules, and the
      Wrap Message and Munge From actions will be done on messages held by
      header_filter_rules if the message is approved.  (LP: #1334450)

    - <label> tags have been added around most check boxes and radio buttons
      and their text labels in the admin and admindb web GUI so they can be
      (de)selected by clicking the text.  (LP: #266391)

    - If checking DNS for dmarc_moderation_action and DNS lookup is not
      available, log it.  (LP: #1324541)
 
    - Handle missing From: header addresses for DMARC mitigation actions.
      (LP: #1318025)

-------------- next part --------------
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From dunkel at calamus.net  Mon Mar  2 12:43:55 2015
From: dunkel at calamus.net (Ulf Dunkel)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 12:43:55 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List member seen as non-member by Mailman?
Message-ID: <54F44CFB.4050004@calamus.net>

I am running Mailman 2.1.16 on an up-to-date Ubuntu Linux machine.

On one of the lists, I frequently get admin messages to accept messages
to the list, sent by non-members. But when I check them, their email
addresses are definitely in the list.

None of the members are set to be moderated, nor do I find any other
restrictions.
Is there anything I can have overseen so that Mailman doesn't recognize
these list members?

Thank you in advance,
---Ulf Dunkel

From Bill.Costa at unh.edu  Mon Mar  2 16:24:59 2015
From: Bill.Costa at unh.edu (Bill.Costa at unh.edu)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 10:24:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ListProc to Mailman migration -- any tools or
	guides?
In-Reply-To: <518D5E90.2050103@msapiro.net>
References: <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BAA0@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D1433.2030806@msapiro.net>
 <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BCB1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D5E90.2050103@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021016110.12757@conundrum.unh.edu>

I'm going to be migrating about 400 lists with 25K subscribers
from ListProc to Mailman.  I'm looking for whatever tools I can
find to aid in the conversion process.  Of particular concern is
the creation of the replacement list in Mailman with a reasonable
mapping of the ListProc settings into equivalent Mailman
features, and of course the conversion of the subscribers.
Archive conversion would be nice too, but is a much lower
priority.

In my searching so far I've found a few bits and pieces, but
nothing comprehensive.  So before I get out the hammer and saw, I
just want to make sure I'm not missing a good resource for doing
this.

...BC

-- 
=====================================[ Bill.Costa at unh.edu ]==
  Bill Costa
  1 Leavitt Lane
  UNH IT -- 1st Floor
  University of New Hampshire
  Durham, NH  03824
  USA
  Voice: +1-603-862-3056
  No good deed... Goes unpunished.
===========================[ http://pubpages.unh.edu/~wfc ]==

From Bill.Costa at unh.edu  Mon Mar  2 17:22:57 2015
From: Bill.Costa at unh.edu (Bill.Costa at unh.edu)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 11:22:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Jump from Python 2.4 to 2.7...
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>

I'm going to be doing a new Mailman installation on a Red Hat
Enterprise Linux (RHEL) system 5.11 with Python 2.4.3.  The goal
is to convert existing ListProc mailing lists to Mailman without
having to change the addresses for the lists.  I've done a
similar conversion in the past many years ago and expect it to
take a few months to get all my list owners moved to the to the
new MLM.

When all the lists are eventually converted or retired, I will
then migrate this new Mailman installation from the above
platform to a new RHEL 7 installation with Python 2.7.

My question is, are there any quirks or gotchas that I should be
aware of in going from the old RHEL/Python platform to the new
one?  Is there anything I can do on the old system now that will
make migration to the new platform easier?  For example, I could
use Pythonbrew to install a private v2.7 Python on the old box
for Mailman to use, rather than relying on the system's older
Python.

In general is it a good practice to give Mailman it's own Python
installation rather than relying on and dinking with the system's
Python.

...BC

-- 
=====================================[ Bill.Costa at unh.edu ]==
  Bill Costa
  1 Leavitt Lane
  UNH IT -- 1st Floor
  University of New Hampshire
  Durham, NH  03824
  USA
  Voice: +1-603-862-3056
  No good deed... Goes unpunished.
===========================[ http://pubpages.unh.edu/~wfc ]==

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  2 17:56:50 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 08:56:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List member seen as non-member by Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <54F44CFB.4050004@calamus.net>
References: <54F44CFB.4050004@calamus.net>
Message-ID: <54F49652.7090504@msapiro.net>

On 03/02/2015 03:43 AM, Ulf Dunkel wrote:
> 
> On one of the lists, I frequently get admin messages to accept messages
> to the list, sent by non-members. But when I check them, their email
> addresses are definitely in the list.


I'd like a bit more information.

When you go to the admindb summary page, what is the 'reason' why the
message is held, and what if any of the following does it also say?
 'The sender is now a member of this list'
 'Add <address> to one of these sender filters:'
 'Clear this member's moderate flag'


> None of the members are set to be moderated, nor do I find any other
> restrictions.
> Is there anything I can have overseen so that Mailman doesn't recognize
> these list members?


Are the email addresses in the list exactly the same (except for case)
as the sender address? I.e., user at mail.example.com may be the same
person as user at example.com, but Mailman doesn't know that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Mon Mar  2 17:59:05 2015
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 17:59:05 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Jump from Python 2.4 to 2.7...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>
Message-ID: <6DE5421C4AFF3690AB25D202@vpn82-144.vpn.uni-koeln.de>


> I'm going to be doing a new Mailman installation on a Red Hat
> Enterprise Linux (RHEL) system 5.11 with Python 2.4.3.  The goal
> is to convert existing ListProc mailing lists to Mailman without
> having to change the addresses for the lists.  I've done a
> similar conversion in the past many years ago and expect it to
> take a few months to get all my list owners moved to the to the
> new MLM.
>
> When all the lists are eventually converted or retired, I will
> then migrate this new Mailman installation from the above
> platform to a new RHEL 7 installation with Python 2.7.
>
> My question is, are there any quirks or gotchas that I should be
> aware of in going from the old RHEL/Python platform to the new
> one?  Is there anything I can do on the old system now that will
> make migration to the new platform easier?  For example, I could
> use Pythonbrew to install a private v2.7 Python on the old box
> for Mailman to use, rather than relying on the system's older
> Python.

FWIW, we're still on RHEL 5 and have been using the Python 2.7 RPMs from 
iuscommunityproject for several years. Here's the repo file:

[iuscommunityproject]
name=IUS Community Project
baseurl=http://dl.iuscommunity.org/pub/ius/stable/Redhat/5/$basearch/
enabled=1
gpgcheck=1
gpgkey=http://dl.iuscommunity.org/pub/ius/IUS-COMMUNITY-GPG-KEY

Cheers
Sebastian
--
Sebastian Hagedorn - Weyertal 121, Zimmer 2.02
Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK)
Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - Tel. +49-221-470-89578

From cpz at tuunq.com  Mon Mar  2 17:51:18 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 08:51:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List member seen as non-member by Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <54F44CFB.4050004@calamus.net>
References: <54F44CFB.4050004@calamus.net>
Message-ID: <54F49506.6010509@tuunq.com>

On 3/2/2015 3:43 AM, Ulf Dunkel wrote:
> On one of the lists, I frequently get admin messages to accept messages
> to the list, sent by non-members. But when I check them, their email
> addresses are definitely in the list.

I've seen similar- check both the sender and envelope addresses in the 
original message (you may have to ask for a sample). Sometimes, the sender 
will be 'sender at domain.com' but the outgoing MTA will slip in 
'sender at other.domain.com', which then isn't a list member. Or the reverse- 
user and list have 'sender at other.domain.com' and the MTA rewrites that as 
'sender at domain.com'.

z!


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  2 18:27:49 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 09:27:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ListProc to Mailman migration -- any tools or
 guides?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021016110.12757@conundrum.unh.edu>
References: <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BAA0@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D1433.2030806@msapiro.net>
 <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BCB1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D5E90.2050103@msapiro.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021016110.12757@conundrum.unh.edu>
Message-ID: <54F49D95.7070405@msapiro.net>

On 03/02/2015 07:24 AM, Bill.Costa at unh.edu wrote:
> I'm going to be migrating about 400 lists with 25K subscribers
> from ListProc to Mailman.  I'm looking for whatever tools I can
> find to aid in the conversion process.  Of particular concern is
> the creation of the replacement list in Mailman with a reasonable
> mapping of the ListProc settings into equivalent Mailman
> features, and of course the conversion of the subscribers.
> Archive conversion would be nice too, but is a much lower
> priority.


I know nothing of the internals of ListProc, so I can't help directly,
but there are a couple of Majordomo to Mailman conversion scripts
(written in perl) in Mailman's contrib directory
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/files/head:/contrib/>
that might give you some ideas.

Archives can be imported to Mailman using Mailman's bin/arch tool, but
the messages need to be in a *nix mbox format with '^From ' separators.
If they aren't already in that format, the task is to create it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  2 18:53:15 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 09:53:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Jump from Python 2.4 to 2.7...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>
Message-ID: <54F4A38B.7020502@msapiro.net>

On 03/02/2015 08:22 AM, Bill.Costa at unh.edu wrote:
> 
> My question is, are there any quirks or gotchas that I should be
> aware of in going from the old RHEL/Python platform to the new
> one?  Is there anything I can do on the old system now that will
> make migration to the new platform easier?  For example, I could
> use Pythonbrew to install a private v2.7 Python on the old box
> for Mailman to use, rather than relying on the system's older
> Python.


Are you installing Mailman 2.1.19 on the Red Hat system or using
whatever Red Hat rpm package that's available, and if the latter, what
is that? And, what Mailman will you be using on the RHEL 7 system?

I ask because the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/8486953> may be relevant.

Assuming you will be installing Mailman 2.1.19 from source, I would be
more concerned over potential difficulties due to the older Python than
with any gotchas from moving to a newer Python although there are some
compatibility issues with older Mailman versions and newer Python. See
<http://wiki.list.org/x/4030629> for more on both kinds.


> In general is it a good practice to give Mailman it's own Python
> installation rather than relying on and dinking with the system's
> Python.


My production server is Centos 5 with Python 2.4.3, but I also have
Python 2.7.9 installed and configure Mailman
--with-python=/usr/bin/python2.7. I wouldn't necessarily call it "good
practice", but it's certainly a viable approach.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cnulk at scu.edu  Mon Mar  2 19:09:57 2015
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 10:09:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ListProc to Mailman migration -- any tools or
 guides?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021016110.12757@conundrum.unh.edu>
References: <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BAA0@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D1433.2030806@msapiro.net>
 <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BCB1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D5E90.2050103@msapiro.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021016110.12757@conundrum.unh.edu>
Message-ID: <54F4A775.9080403@scu.edu>

A few years ago, we switched from ListProc to Mailman.  We didn't have 
as extensive a set of lists as do you however.

Remember that communications with the list owners is extremely important.

What we did was:
0. Have a firm timeframe to complete the change over.
1. Try to weed out as many lists as you can that may not be used anymore.
2. Set up Mailman in parallel with ListProc.
3. Create new lists in Mailman to replace the lists in ListProc (we 
changed our naming convention so there wasn't a 1 to 1 move).  If your 
lists are going to be named the same, simple create a list in Mailman 
for each list to be moved from ListProc.
4. List owners of the Mailman lists should be the same as ListProc lists.
5. Communicate with the list owners of the ListProc lists and let them 
know how to access and configure the list on Mailman.
6. Give list owners time to make their changes (e.g. add moderators, set 
moderation, etc.) and test the list.
7. After list owner testing, populate the list (or have the list owner 
do it) membership.
8. Communicate with the list owners for a cutover time (either 
individually or all at once) to do any file conversions like archives, etc.
9. Monitor the process carefully.
10. Remember that firm timeframe, well some list owners are still going 
to miss it.  Be prepared.

Overall, the process went very smoothly for us.  We did not convert the 
archives.  We did change how we populated several of our lists though 
which was a bit of a challange (we went from populating via a static 
mechanism once per year to dynamic LDAP populating).

Chris


On 3/2/2015 7:24 AM, Bill.Costa at unh.edu wrote:
> I'm going to be migrating about 400 lists with 25K subscribers
> from ListProc to Mailman.  I'm looking for whatever tools I can
> find to aid in the conversion process.  Of particular concern is
> the creation of the replacement list in Mailman with a reasonable
> mapping of the ListProc settings into equivalent Mailman
> features, and of course the conversion of the subscribers.
> Archive conversion would be nice too, but is a much lower
> priority.
>
> In my searching so far I've found a few bits and pieces, but
> nothing comprehensive.  So before I get out the hammer and saw, I
> just want to make sure I'm not missing a good resource for doing
> this.
>
> ...BC
>


From cnulk at scu.edu  Mon Mar  2 19:20:31 2015
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 10:20:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Jump from Python 2.4 to 2.7...
In-Reply-To: <54F4A38B.7020502@msapiro.net>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <54F4A38B.7020502@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <54F4A9EF.7090007@scu.edu>

On 3/2/2015 9:53 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 03/02/2015 08:22 AM, Bill.Costa at unh.edu wrote:
>> My question is, are there any quirks or gotchas that I should be
>> aware of in going from the old RHEL/Python platform to the new
>> one?  Is there anything I can do on the old system now that will
>> make migration to the new platform easier?  For example, I could
>> use Pythonbrew to install a private v2.7 Python on the old box
>> for Mailman to use, rather than relying on the system's older
>> Python.
>
> Are you installing Mailman 2.1.19 on the Red Hat system or using
> whatever Red Hat rpm package that's available, and if the latter, what
> is that? And, what Mailman will you be using on the RHEL 7 system?
>
> I ask because the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/8486953> may be relevant.
>
> Assuming you will be installing Mailman 2.1.19 from source, I would be
> more concerned over potential difficulties due to the older Python than
> with any gotchas from moving to a newer Python although there are some
> compatibility issues with older Mailman versions and newer Python. See
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030629> for more on both kinds.
>
>
>> In general is it a good practice to give Mailman it's own Python
>> installation rather than relying on and dinking with the system's
>> Python.
>
> My production server is Centos 5 with Python 2.4.3, but I also have
> Python 2.7.9 installed and configure Mailman
> --with-python=/usr/bin/python2.7. I wouldn't necessarily call it "good
> practice", but it's certainly a viable approach.
>

Interesting.  We moved our Mailman instance from CentOS 5.x running 
Mailman 2.1.9 to SLES version ? running Mailman 2.1.18-1 and python 2.7.

When we switched, the OS was some concern but the main decision we made 
was to use Mailman from the source at list.org and python 2.7. We have 
made some custom modifications here and getting Mailman from the source 
would allow us to upgrade Mailman a little easier than from the OS 
maintainer.   By divorcing our Mailman instance from the version 
provided by the OS maintainer, we can pick up our instance and switch to 
a newer host easier.

Chris



From Bill.Costa at unh.edu  Mon Mar  2 21:15:01 2015
From: Bill.Costa at unh.edu (Bill.Costa at unh.edu)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:15:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Jump from Python 2.4 to 2.7...
In-Reply-To: <54F4A38B.7020502@msapiro.net>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <54F4A38B.7020502@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021507000.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>

Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> recently posted, in part...

> Are you installing Mailman 2.1.19 on the Red Hat system or
> using whatever Red Hat rpm package that's available, and if the
> latter, what is that? And, what Mailman will you be using on
> the RHEL 7 system?

Well my original plan was to install the latest and greatest
Mailman on both the old RHEL 5 system, and then the new RHEL 7,
rather than use whatever the RPM package does.

> I ask because the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/8486953> may
> be relevant.

It definitely is relevant.  I was just asking the system admin if
I should be putting the install someplace other than what was
recommended in the manual and I specifically mentioned FHS
issues.

> Assuming you will be installing Mailman 2.1.19 from source, I
> would be more concerned over potential difficulties due to the
> older Python than with any gotchas from moving to a newer
> Python although there are some compatibility issues with older
> Mailman versions and newer Python. See
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030629> for more on both kinds.

Well that's why I thought it could avoid issues by installing the
latest Python as well, just for Mailman, and leave the system
Python alone.

> My production server is Centos 5 with Python 2.4.3, but I also have
> Python 2.7.9 installed and configure Mailman
> --with-python=/usr/bin/python2.7. I wouldn't necessarily call it "good
> practice", but it's certainly a viable approach.

Thanks for the confirmation.

...BC

-- 
=====================================[ Bill.Costa at unh.edu ]==
  Bill Costa
  1 Leavitt Lane
  UNH IT -- 1st Floor
  University of New Hampshire
  Durham, NH  03824
  USA
  Voice: +1-603-862-3056
  No good deed... Goes unpunished.
===========================[ http://pubpages.unh.edu/~wfc ]==

From Bill.Costa at unh.edu  Mon Mar  2 21:44:54 2015
From: Bill.Costa at unh.edu (Bill.Costa at unh.edu)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:44:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ListProc to Mailman migration -- any tools or
 guides?
In-Reply-To: <54F4A775.9080403@scu.edu>
References: <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BAA0@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D1433.2030806@msapiro.net>
 <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BCB1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D5E90.2050103@msapiro.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021016110.12757@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <54F4A775.9080403@scu.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021515410.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>

  Chris Nulk <cnulk at scu.edu> recently wrote, in part...

> Remember that communications with the list owners is extremely
> important.

Indeed!

> What we did was:
> 0. Have a firm timeframe to complete the change over.

Haven't picked the date yet -- nor have I told the users what is
coming yet until I get Mailman installed, tested, and have done
some test conversions.  When that's all in place, you can bet
your sweet bippy there will be a firm timeframe for the
conversion!

> 1. Try to weed out as many lists as you can that may not be
> used anymore.

Done.  Contacted all list owners with no postings within the past
year.  One way or the other, all ended up being retired.

> 2. Set up Mailman in parallel with ListProc.

Already have two separate list alias files so it will be easy to
switch message delivery from ListProc to Mailman on a
list-by-list basis.

> 3. Create new lists in Mailman...

> 4. List owners of the Mailman lists should be the same as
> ListProc lists.

> 5. Communicate with the list owners of the ListProc lists and
> let them know how to access and configure the list on Mailman.

> 6. Give list owners time to make their changes (e.g. add
> moderators, set moderation, etc.) and test the list.

> 7. After list owner testing, populate the list (or have the
> list owner do it) membership.

My goal, which I did last time we did this (over 10 years ago
from a homegrown system) is to have a script that does the
conversion on a list-by-list basis.  The list owner picks a date
for their list to be 'down'.  I do the conversion on that date,
and bring their new list up and hand over the keys.  This assumes
that I will be able to do a good job of mapping the most
important settings from ListProc to Mailman.  If that doesn't
turn out to be the case, your suggested approach of giving them
some time to play with the Mailman list without subscribers may
make sense.  But for 80% of my list owners, once the list is
initially created as either an 'announce', 'discussion', or
'moderated' list, they never mess with the configuration.  So I'm
optimistic I can map the list behavior automatically and have the
new list working just like the old one, out of the gate.

> 8. Communicate with the list owners for a cutover time (either
> individually or all at once) to do any file conversions like
> archives, etc.

In the last conversion I sent out an announcement to all the list
owners telling why the conversion and the time-frame to contact
me when they were ready to make the switch.  That allowed me to
make adjustments to the process as we went since my early
adopters were better at both finding the bugs, and not panicking
about same.

> 9. Monitor the process carefully.

> 10. Remember that firm timeframe, well some list owners are
> still going to miss it.  Be prepared.

Indeed.  Last time the deal was if I didn't hear from the list
owner by such-and-such a date, the list would simply be retired.
It was amazing how many people just let that happen rather than
just replying to the nag message to say that they didn't want the
list any more so just retire it now.

> Overall, the process went very smoothly for us.  We did not
> convert the archives.

We don't have many lists with archives.  I probably will only
convert if owners explicitly ask.  I'm betting few will.

> We did change how we populated several of our lists though
> which was a bit of a challange (we went from populating via a
> static mechanism once per year to dynamic LDAP populating).

I have a similar issue -- I maintain student announcement lists
by college and class year, or even down to major code, with a
weekly update from Registrar's records.  I'll have to build that
all over again for Mailman.  Doesn't look like it should be too
bad using the command line tools.

Thanks for the observations and advice.

...BC

-- 
=====================================[ Bill.Costa at unh.edu ]==
  Bill Costa
  1 Leavitt Lane
  UNH IT -- 1st Floor
  University of New Hampshire
  Durham, NH  03824
  USA
  Voice: +1-603-862-3056
  No good deed... Goes unpunished.
===========================[ http://pubpages.unh.edu/~wfc ]==

From Bill.Costa at unh.edu  Mon Mar  2 21:06:44 2015
From: Bill.Costa at unh.edu (Bill.Costa at unh.edu)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:06:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ListProc to Mailman migration -- any tools or
 guides?
In-Reply-To: <54F49D95.7070405@msapiro.net>
References: <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BAA0@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D1433.2030806@msapiro.net>
 <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BCB1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D5E90.2050103@msapiro.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021016110.12757@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <54F49D95.7070405@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021504170.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>

Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> recently posted, in part...

> I know nothing of the internals of ListProc, so I can't help
> directly,

No problem there -- ListProc I know, warts and all.

> but there are a couple of Majordomo to Mailman
> conversion scripts (written in perl) in Mailman's contrib
> directory
> <http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/files/head:/contrib/>
> that might give you some ideas.

Definitely -- Perl is my native language.  Thanks for the
pointer.

> Archives can be imported to Mailman using Mailman's bin/arch
> tool, but the messages need to be in a *nix mbox format...

That should be no problem.

...BC

-- 
=====================================[ Bill.Costa at unh.edu ]==
  Bill Costa
  1 Leavitt Lane
  UNH IT -- 1st Floor
  University of New Hampshire
  Durham, NH  03824
  USA
  Voice: +1-603-862-3056
  No good deed... Goes unpunished.
===========================[ http://pubpages.unh.edu/~wfc ]==

From cnulk at scu.edu  Mon Mar  2 22:20:09 2015
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 13:20:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ListProc to Mailman migration -- any tools or
 guides?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021515410.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>
References: <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BAA0@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D1433.2030806@msapiro.net>
 <BCCC68417875EB469663F8BFA12F73C81F73BCB1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX02.osuad.osu.edu>
 <518D5E90.2050103@msapiro.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021016110.12757@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <54F4A775.9080403@scu.edu>
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021515410.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>
Message-ID: <54F4D409.60703@scu.edu>


On 3/2/2015 12:44 PM, Bill.Costa at unh.edu wrote:
>  Chris Nulk <cnulk at scu.edu> recently wrote, in part...
>
>> Remember that communications with the list owners is extremely
>> important.
>
> Indeed!
>
[snip]
>> We did change how we populated several of our lists though
>> which was a bit of a challange (we went from populating via a
>> static mechanism once per year to dynamic LDAP populating).
>
> I have a similar issue -- I maintain student announcement lists
> by college and class year, or even down to major code, with a
> weekly update from Registrar's records.  I'll have to build that
> all over again for Mailman.  Doesn't look like it should be too
> bad using the command line tools.

If you can build LDAP queries to derive your list membership by college, 
class year, etc., you may want to look into using the LDAPMembership 
adapter.  The only issues are list members cannot remove themselves from 
the list or change any user options.  We use it to build four of our 
important "essential" communications lists for our community here 
(members are not allowed to remove themselves from the "essential" lists).

>
> Thanks for the observations and advice.
>
> ...BC
>
No problem.  Happy to help.

Chris

From lac at openend.se  Mon Mar  2 22:56:29 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 22:56:29 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Jump from Python 2.4 to 2.7...
In-Reply-To: Message from Bill.Costa@unh.edu of "Mon,
 02 Mar 2015 15:15:01 -0500."
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021507000.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <54F4A38B.7020502@msapiro.net><alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021507000.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>
Message-ID: <201503022156.t22LuTv3027020@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Mon, 02 Mar 2015 15:15:01 -0500, Bill.Costa at unh.edu writes:
>Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> recently posted, in part...
>
>> Are you installing Mailman 2.1.19 on the Red Hat system or
>> using whatever Red Hat rpm package that's available, and if the
>> latter, what is that? And, what Mailman will you be using on
>> the RHEL 7 system?
>
>Well my original plan was to install the latest and greatest
>Mailman on both the old RHEL 5 system, and then the new RHEL 7,
>rather than use whatever the RPM package does.
>
>> I ask because the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/8486953> may
>> be relevant.
>
>It definitely is relevant.  I was just asking the system admin if
>I should be putting the install someplace other than what was
>recommended in the manual and I specifically mentioned FHS
>issues.
>
>> Assuming you will be installing Mailman 2.1.19 from source, I
>> would be more concerned over potential difficulties due to the
>> older Python than with any gotchas from moving to a newer
>> Python although there are some compatibility issues with older
>> Mailman versions and newer Python. See
>> <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030629> for more on both kinds.
>
>Well that's why I thought it could avoid issues by installing the
>latest Python as well, just for Mailman, and leave the system
>Python alone.
>
>> My production server is Centos 5 with Python 2.4.3, but I also have
>> Python 2.7.9 installed and configure Mailman
>> --with-python=/usr/bin/python2.7. I wouldn't necessarily call it "good
>> practice", but it's certainly a viable approach.
>
>Thanks for the confirmation.
>
>...BC

I have been away.  I get to this discussion late, and so sorry if
this has been mentioned, but

YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT CHANGE YOUR CENTOS SYSTEM PYTHON 2.4.3 OR YOU
WILL BREAK YOUR WHOLE PACKAGING SYSTEM!

(now I go back and read older mail.  must get this warning out now.)

Laura

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  2 23:04:49 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 14:04:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Jump from Python 2.4 to 2.7...
In-Reply-To: <201503022156.t22LuTv3027020@fido.openend.se>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <54F4A38B.7020502@msapiro.net><alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021507000.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <201503022156.t22LuTv3027020@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <54F4DE81.6020404@msapiro.net>

On 03/02/2015 01:56 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> 
> I have been away.  I get to this discussion late, and so sorry if
> this has been mentioned, but
> 
> YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT CHANGE YOUR CENTOS SYSTEM PYTHON 2.4.3 OR YOU
> WILL BREAK YOUR WHOLE PACKAGING SYSTEM!


Quite true. I found this out the hard way a long time ago. Yum depends
on various other 'site-packages' modules which IIRC would not work on
Python newer than 2.4.x I gave up. That's why the default Python on my
CentOS 5 server is 2.4.3, even though there is a python2.7 invoking
python 2.7.9 and most everything that I install that uses Python is
configured to use python2.7.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lac at openend.se  Mon Mar  2 23:08:19 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 23:08:19 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Jump from Python 2.4 to 2.7...
In-Reply-To: Message from Bill.Costa@unh.edu of "Mon,
 02 Mar 2015 15:15:01 -0500."
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021507000.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <54F4A38B.7020502@msapiro.net><alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021507000.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>
Message-ID: <201503022208.t22M8JV5029409@fido.openend.se>

Aha, I now see that you know not to replace your system Python.  Sorry
for the note in haste, but if you were about to do such a thing I needed
to tell you NO! DON'T DO THAT! in a hurry.

Apologies, apologies ...
(from somebody who only learned that about CentOS only  _after_ she thought
thatinstalling a more modern Python system-wide would be in everybody's
interest)

Laura

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Mar  3 04:40:47 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:40:47 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Jump from Python 2.4 to 2.7...
In-Reply-To: <201503022208.t22M8JV5029409@fido.openend.se>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021101460.14852@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <54F4A38B.7020502@msapiro.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503021507000.21736@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <201503022208.t22M8JV5029409@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <87d24qbveo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Laura Creighton writes:

 > Apologies, apologies ...
 > (from somebody who only learned that about CentOS only  _after_ she thought
 > thatinstalling a more modern Python system-wide would be in everybody's
 > interest)

Yes, indeed.  "Don't touch /usr/bin/python" is an ancient Red Hat and
Centos bugaboo going back to Python 1.5.2 at least (never used RHEL,
but since Centos suffers from it, I suppose older versions of RHEL do,
too).  It's interesting (not a criticism, I really mean "interesting")
that you had to learn from experience, Laura.

Is this true of recent Fedora, even today?

Regards,

Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar  3 23:24:26 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:24:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Announcing the new wiki.list.org
In-Reply-To: <54DA365B.40805@msapiro.net>
References: <20150126113613.21fdf6bc@anarchist.wooz.org>
 <54DA365B.40805@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <54F6349A.5010805@msapiro.net>

The Mailman wiki (http://wiki.list.org/> has been getting some much
needed attention lately. In addition to the additions and cleaning up
<http://wiki.list.org/RecentChanges> that has been and is still going
on, there have been a couple of software changes since the initial move
to MoinMoin.

The wiki was initially running on the Ubuntu python-moinmoin
1.9.7-1ubuntu2 package. It is now running on the MoinMoin 1.9.8 source
distribution.

There is a change log at
<http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.9/file/1.9.8/docs/CHANGES>, but we don't
know which if any of the changes might have been backported in the
Ubuntu package, and we don't know what Ubuntu package specific things we
might have undone.

Noticeable changes at this point include a choice of the text or the GUI
editor where previously only the text editor was offered (you can change
this in your preferences) and a few bug fixes.

The wiki is also now being served through mod_wsgi which may result in
faster response, but probably won't be noticeable.

Otherwise, the wiki should be working the same as it has been since the
initial move to MoinMoin five weeks ago.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From len.ward at gmail.com  Wed Mar  4 02:08:03 2015
From: len.ward at gmail.com (len ward)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 11:08:03 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No mail received
Message-ID: <CAFj+_kUg0c=vHg7Ox7WvbPtd9KK4o8UtNos3ymNxKEmuJ_fKCg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi
I manage a list of 60 members.  If I send an email it does not get to
anybody, yet it is recorded in archives.  Same for most others, although I
know one person gets through and maybe others.  How do I fix this?
Regards len

From bryan at skiblack.com  Wed Mar  4 17:23:38 2015
From: bryan at skiblack.com (Bryan Blackwell)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 11:23:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No mail received
In-Reply-To: <CAFj+_kUg0c=vHg7Ox7WvbPtd9KK4o8UtNos3ymNxKEmuJ_fKCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFj+_kUg0c=vHg7Ox7WvbPtd9KK4o8UtNos3ymNxKEmuJ_fKCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3176B6E1-E1F5-43FD-BF17-898BDE40FA61@skiblack.com>

On Mar 3, 2015, at 8:08 PM, len ward <len.ward at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> I manage a list of 60 members.  If I send an email it does not get to
> anybody, yet it is recorded in archives.  Same for most others, although I
> know one person gets through and maybe others.  How do I fix this?
> Regards len

I found that DMARC is pervasive enough to cause this behavior.  Using "munge from" fixed it for me, be aware you need a very recent version of MM to have the options.

--Bryan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar  4 17:52:02 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 08:52:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No mail received
In-Reply-To: <3176B6E1-E1F5-43FD-BF17-898BDE40FA61@skiblack.com>
References: <CAFj+_kUg0c=vHg7Ox7WvbPtd9KK4o8UtNos3ymNxKEmuJ_fKCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3176B6E1-E1F5-43FD-BF17-898BDE40FA61@skiblack.com>
Message-ID: <54F73832.3030503@msapiro.net>

On 03/04/2015 08:23 AM, Bryan Blackwell wrote:
> On Mar 3, 2015, at 8:08 PM, len ward <len.ward at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I manage a list of 60 members.  If I send an email it does not get to
>> anybody, yet it is recorded in archives.  Same for most others, although I
>> know one person gets through and maybe others.  How do I fix this?
>> Regards len
> 
> I found that DMARC is pervasive enough to cause this behavior.  Using "munge from" fixed it for me, be aware you need a very recent version of MM to have the options.


If the posts that aren't received are all From: yahoo.com and aol.com
addresses, DMARC is the likely reason. See the FAQs at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/17891458> and <http://wiki.list.org/x/17891477>.

On the other hand, if this is independent of sender, see the FAQs at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/4030723> and <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030690>.

Does Mailman record bounces for the undelivered mail? See Mailman's
'bounce' and 'error' logs if you have access.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar  5 02:29:37 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:29:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No mail received
In-Reply-To: <CAFj+_kX-C4L9_AMJ2Hrp9p+HdnbQkqWGz1Ps6KDRH_msz_p+=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFj+_kUg0c=vHg7Ox7WvbPtd9KK4o8UtNos3ymNxKEmuJ_fKCg@mail.gmail.com>	<3176B6E1-E1F5-43FD-BF17-898BDE40FA61@skiblack.com>	<54F73832.3030503@msapiro.net>
 <CAFj+_kX-C4L9_AMJ2Hrp9p+HdnbQkqWGz1Ps6KDRH_msz_p+=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F7B181.5060008@msapiro.net>

On 03/04/2015 05:09 PM, len ward wrote:
> I changed it from No to Munge to Wrap and Wrap works although the text
> of the original email is wrapped in another email and is well down the
> body of the email.  Munge did not work.  Have I got some other settings
> wrong or are the server settings blocking.  As emails will only go to
> everyone on Wrap (six lines down in General Options)


If setting from_is_list to Wrap Message allows the mail to go through, I
don't know why Munge From would not also work. Please read the info at
the "(Details for from_is_list)" link on the General Options page for
more on this.

Further, these settings should only affect delivery of list mail that is
From: an aol.com or yahoo.com address. For a setting that applies these
message transformations only to those messages, see Privacy options...
-> Sender filters -> dmarc_moderation_action.

To further diagnose exactly what the problem is and why Wrap Message
appears to work but Munge From doesn't probably will require information
from Mailman's bounce and error logs and the outgoing MTA logs. If you
don't have access to these, we will be willing to work with whoever does
if you can get them to pursue it.

Please keep this thread on the list if not posting private information.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Bill.Costa at unh.edu  Thu Mar  5 02:24:35 2015
From: Bill.Costa at unh.edu (Bill.Costa at unh.edu)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 20:24:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] File placement during installation...
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503042004330.8398@conundrum.unh.edu>

If this is question is better asked on the developer's list, let
me know.

I'm going to install Mailman from source because the current RHEL
package system would install Mailman v2.1.9 (2006-10-23) but I
need the latest version (v2.1.19) for all the latest DMARC
mitigation goodness.

As to where to install Mailman, the installation manual says...

> The default is to install all of Mailman to `/usr/local/mailman`.

But the Wiki document "DOC/ RHEL file changes after version
2.1.5-20" says...

> As of mailman-2.1.5-21, mailman file locations were changed to
> conform to the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS)...

http://wiki.list.org/DOC/RHEL%20file%20changes%20after%20version%202.1.5-20

The thing is, in the table provided, I don't see any mention of
the `/usr/local/mailman` directory, so I'm a bit confused.  For
an installation from source on RHEL, is the suggested default
location best, or should I change it?

BTW -- on the subject of which Python, I did a package install of
Python v2.6.8 and will explicitly configure the Mailman install
to use that:

  ./configure --with-mail-gid=mail --with-python=/usr/bin/python2.6

The package installer doesn't clobber the system Python (v2.4.3)
and since the installation manual recommends at least v2.4.4 I
figured the available package was new enough, and I didn't need
the latest and greatest Python.  Thanks to all for the warning
about not clobbering the default RHEL system Python!

...BC

-- 
=====================================[ Bill.Costa at unh.edu ]==
  Bill Costa
  1 Leavitt Lane
  UNH IT -- 1st Floor
  University of New Hampshire
  Durham, NH  03824
  USA
  Voice: +1-603-862-3056
  No good deed... Goes unpunished.
===========================[ http://pubpages.unh.edu/~wfc ]==

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar  5 03:49:40 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 18:49:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] File placement during installation...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503042004330.8398@conundrum.unh.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503042004330.8398@conundrum.unh.edu>
Message-ID: <54F7C444.2090709@msapiro.net>

On 03/04/2015 05:24 PM, Bill.Costa at unh.edu wrote:
> 
> As to where to install Mailman, the installation manual says...
> 
>> The default is to install all of Mailman to `/usr/local/mailman`.
> 
> But the Wiki document "DOC/ RHEL file changes after version
> 2.1.5-20" says...
> 
>> As of mailman-2.1.5-21, mailman file locations were changed to
>> conform to the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS)...
> 
> http://wiki.list.org/DOC/RHEL%20file%20changes%20after%20version%202.1.5-20
> 
> The thing is, in the table provided, I don't see any mention of
> the `/usr/local/mailman` directory, so I'm a bit confused.  For
> an installation from source on RHEL, is the suggested default
> location best, or should I change it?


It depends. If you use SELinux, it is definitely best to follow the Red
Hat locations, but this requires the patch attached to the post linked
from the above FAQ article. Note that the 'old' locations in the FAQ
article refer to older Red Hat package locations where it was mostly
configured with --prefix=/var/mailman

You can get close by configuring with --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman and
--with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman, but to go all the way requires the
patch and maybe configure options. Read John Dennis' post.

Also note the patch is against the 2.1.5 base and may need tweaking.

Finally, you could probably accomplish the end result by moving things
after installation and overriding directory locations in mm_cfg.py, but
if strict FHS compliance is not a requirement, I'd recommend just
configuring with --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman and
--with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman and going with that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cmupythia at cmu.edu  Wed Mar  4 18:01:58 2015
From: cmupythia at cmu.edu (Gretchen R Beck)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 17:01:58 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No mail received
In-Reply-To: <54F73832.3030503@msapiro.net>
References: <CAFj+_kUg0c=vHg7Ox7WvbPtd9KK4o8UtNos3ymNxKEmuJ_fKCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3176B6E1-E1F5-43FD-BF17-898BDE40FA61@skiblack.com>,
 <54F73832.3030503@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56DDB644A1AF6E4CB5CF6CB8B50FCDB402757FAC@PGH-MSGMB-03.andrew.ad.cmu.edu>

Hi Bryan,

I've encountered something similar when there is a problem with the Outgoing qrunner (it's behind, a disk is over quota, sendmail -- which we use for the MTA layer -- is throwing an error, the list has gotten tagged by the spam filter, etc).  How do your queues look?

Gretchen Beck
Carnegie Mellon

________________________________________
From: Mailman-Users [mailman-users-bounces+cmupythia=cmu.edu at python.org] on behalf of Mark Sapiro [mark at msapiro.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 11:52 AM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] No mail received

On 03/04/2015 08:23 AM, Bryan Blackwell wrote:
> On Mar 3, 2015, at 8:08 PM, len ward <len.ward at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I manage a list of 60 members.  If I send an email it does not get to
>> anybody, yet it is recorded in archives.  Same for most others, although I
>> know one person gets through and maybe others.  How do I fix this?
>> Regards len
>
> I found that DMARC is pervasive enough to cause this behavior.  Using "munge from" fixed it for me, be aware you need a very recent version of MM to have the options.


If the posts that aren't received are all From: yahoo.com and aol.com
addresses, DMARC is the likely reason. See the FAQs at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/17891458> and <http://wiki.list.org/x/17891477>.

On the other hand, if this is independent of sender, see the FAQs at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/4030723> and <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030690>.

Does Mailman record bounces for the undelivered mail? See Mailman's
'bounce' and 'error' logs if you have access.

--
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/cmupythia%40cmu.edu

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar  5 17:19:54 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 08:19:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] Error while installing
	Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAPfAd_+aenahOE6L_9xNUGzUkHcGK=9xUJx1z21bURi85HAWWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPfAd_KEOBr3T4Wb1K+QU0ANsfuiN+uMrJss7vKdjJU8pL_Y9w@mail.gmail.com>	<54F87712.8040905@msapiro.net>
 <CAPfAd_+aenahOE6L_9xNUGzUkHcGK=9xUJx1z21bURi85HAWWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54F8822A.9000906@msapiro.net>

On 03/05/2015 08:08 AM, Rakesh Verma wrote:
> i did the same but i am still getting the error, can i manually add the
> user to /etc/passwd???

Please keep threads on the list unless sending personal, private or
security information.

What happened when you did the useradd command?

There are two issues with the manual:

1) useradd -c''GNU Mailman'' -s /no/shell -d /no/home -g mailman mailman

should be either

useradd -c"GNU Mailman" -s /no/shell -d /no/home -g mailman mailman

or

useradd -c'GNU Mailman' -s /no/shell -d /no/home -g mailman mailman

2) you need to be root or use sudo

Also, if you don't actually know how to add a user to your system, you
may not have enough sysadmin experience to successfully install mailman.
The installation manual tries to be complete, but it assumes a certain
level of background knowledge.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Bill.Costa at unh.edu  Thu Mar  5 17:45:38 2015
From: Bill.Costa at unh.edu (Bill.Costa at unh.edu)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 11:45:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] File placement during installation...
In-Reply-To: <54F7C444.2090709@msapiro.net>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503042004330.8398@conundrum.unh.edu>
 <54F7C444.2090709@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1503051140421.8253@conundrum.unh.edu>

> Note that the 'old' locations in the FAQ article refer to older
> Red Hat package locations where it was mostly configured with
> --prefix=/var/mailman

OK -- that was part of the puzzle I was missing, that the older
locations were for the former Red Hat packaging, not old Mailman
defaults.

> ...if strict FHS compliance is not a requirement, I'd recommend
> just configuring with --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman and
> --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman and going with that.

That sounds like a reasonable approach.  Thanks!

...BC

-- 
=====================================[ Bill.Costa at unh.edu ]==
  Bill Costa
  1 Leavitt Lane
  UNH IT -- 1st Floor
  University of New Hampshire
  Durham, NH  03824
  USA
  Voice: +1-603-862-3056
  No good deed... Goes unpunished.
===========================[ http://pubpages.unh.edu/~wfc ]==

From heller at deepsoft.com  Sun Mar  8 00:41:24 2015
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 18:41:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bypassing Mailman 'confirmation' process
Message-ID: <201503072341.t27NfOTU003894@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

I recently changed a user's E-Mail address and Mailman sent a confirmation 
message, which did not get delivered (I'm guessing it landed in her spam/junk 
folder -- I'm pretty sure the address is correct).  Is there some way a list 
admin can change a user's E-Mail address and just skip the confirmation 
E-Mail.  I'm dealing with someone who might be be able to deal with the 
confirmation process (it is a long story).

I know I can just delete her old subscription and create a brand new one -- is 
that the only way?  That would probably lose all her old settings (if any).


-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                                                    

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Mar  8 02:02:42 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 17:02:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bypassing Mailman 'confirmation' process
In-Reply-To: <201503072341.t27NfOTU003894@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
References: <201503072341.t27NfOTU003894@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <54FB9FB2.1070101@msapiro.net>

On 03/07/2015 03:41 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> Is there some way a list 
> admin can change a user's E-Mail address and just skip the confirmation 
> E-Mail.


Not from the web admin UI.  There is a feature request at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266809>, but it's never been
implemented.

If you have command line access, you can use Mailman's bin/clone_member
tool.


> I know I can just delete her old subscription and create a brand new one -- is 
> that the only way?  That would probably lose all her old settings (if any).


Add the new address through admin Mass Subscription. Then copy all the
check boxes, real name and language from the old Membership List entry
to the new and copy the get password reminder and topics settings from
the old user options page to the new and then delete the old address.

The only thing that won't be preserved in this process is the user's
list password. You can't get that without command line access to the server.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dunkel at calamus.net  Mon Mar  9 16:13:37 2015
From: dunkel at calamus.net (Ulf Dunkel)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 16:13:37 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List member seen as non-member by Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <54F49652.7090504@msapiro.net>
References: <54F44CFB.4050004@calamus.net> <54F49652.7090504@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <54FDB8A1.8000404@calamus.net>

Thank you for your reply. I will get back to this subject as soon as
another issue occurs.
The first one showed the message: 'The sender is not a member of this
list', although the exact email was definitely in the list.

- - - - -

Am 02.03.2015 um 17:56 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> On 03/02/2015 03:43 AM, Ulf Dunkel wrote:
>>
>> On one of the lists, I frequently get admin messages to accept messages
>> to the list, sent by non-members. But when I check them, their email
>> addresses are definitely in the list.
> 
> 
> I'd like a bit more information.
> 
> When you go to the admindb summary page, what is the 'reason' why the
> message is held, and what if any of the following does it also say?
>  'The sender is now a member of this list'
>  'Add <address> to one of these sender filters:'
>  'Clear this member's moderate flag'
> 
> 
>> None of the members are set to be moderated, nor do I find any other
>> restrictions.
>> Is there anything I can have overseen so that Mailman doesn't recognize
>> these list members?
> 
> 
> Are the email addresses in the list exactly the same (except for case)
> as the sender address? I.e., user at mail.example.com may be the same
> person as user at example.com, but Mailman doesn't know that.

From gao at pztop.com  Wed Mar 11 01:03:09 2015
From: gao at pztop.com (Gao)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:03:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't let subscriber access the archive. Help
	please.
Message-ID: <54FF863D.6060305@pztop.com>

My mailman server send out a password reminder to all subscribers once a 
month. On the email, it has a URL to the emembership management page 
like this:

http://zeta.pztop.com/mailman/options/sj-news/gao%40pztop.com

Click this link it take you to a web page which pop up a login dialogue 
window. I use the subscribers email as login name, password is from the 
reminder email, but the authentication failed!

All I want is 1) subscriber should able to log in and manage his 
account, and 2) the member should be able to access the archive page. I 
don't know how to set this up so could some one give me a hand? Thanks a 
lot.

Gao



-- 


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 11 18:08:09 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:08:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't let subscriber access the archive. Help
 please.
In-Reply-To: <54FF863D.6060305@pztop.com>
References: <54FF863D.6060305@pztop.com>
Message-ID: <55007679.8090501@msapiro.net>

On 03/10/2015 05:03 PM, Gao wrote:
> My mailman server send out a password reminder to all subscribers once a
> month. On the email, it has a URL to the emembership management page
> like this:
> 
> http://zeta.pztop.com/mailman/options/sj-news/gao%40pztop.com
> 
> Click this link it take you to a web page which pop up a login dialogue
> window. I use the subscribers email as login name, password is from the
> reminder email, but the authentication failed!


I'm a bit confused. The above link is to your options page, not some
other user's, and that page doesn't have a field for the subscribers
email address. If you mean you actually went to

<http://zeta.pztop.com/mailman/options/sj-news>

and entered the user's email and password or you went to

<http://zeta.pztop.com/mailman/options/sj-news/user%40example.com>

and entered the user's password, then there is a problem, but if you went to

<http://zeta.pztop.com/mailman/options/sj-news/gao%40pztop.com>

and entered the other user's password, that won't work.


> All I want is 1) subscriber should able to log in and manage his
> account, and 2) the member should be able to access the archive page. I
> don't know how to set this up so could some one give me a hand? Thanks a
> lot.


It is possible the password has whitespace or other unprintable
characters. Unfortunately, without command line access to the server,
you can't fix this.

If you have command line access, you can use Mailman's bin/withlist tool
to examine and change the user's password. as in the following transcript

 /path/to/mailman/bin/withlist -l sj-news
Loading list sj-news (locked)
The variable `m' is the gpc-test MailList instance
>>> m.passwords['user at example.com']
'old_pw'
>>> m.passwords['user at example.com'] = 'new_pw'
>>> m.Save()
>>>             <-      (enter control-D here to exit)
Unlocking (but not saving) list: sj-news
Finalizing

If you don't have access to do this and can't enlist the help of someone
who does, you'll have to delete the existing user and re-add her with a
known password.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gao at pztop.com  Wed Mar 11 19:02:21 2015
From: gao at pztop.com (Gao)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:02:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't let subscriber access the archive. Help
 please.
In-Reply-To: <55007679.8090501@msapiro.net>
References: <54FF863D.6060305@pztop.com> <55007679.8090501@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5500832D.50803@pztop.com>

On 15-03-11 10:08 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 03/10/2015 05:03 PM, Gao wrote:
>> My mailman server send out a password reminder to all subscribers once a
>> month. On the email, it has a URL to the emembership management page
>> like this:
>>
>> http://zeta.pztop.com/mailman/options/sj-news/gao%40pztop.com
>>
>> Click this link it take you to a web page which pop up a login dialogue
>> window. I use the subscribers email as login name, password is from the
>> reminder email, but the authentication failed!
>
> I'm a bit confused. The above link is to your options page, not some
> other user's, and that page doesn't have a field for the subscribers
> email address. If you mean you actually went to
>
> <http://zeta.pztop.com/mailman/options/sj-news>
>
> and entered the user's email and password or you went to
>
> <http://zeta.pztop.com/mailman/options/sj-news/user%40example.com>
>
> and entered the user's password, then there is a problem, but if you went to
>
> <http://zeta.pztop.com/mailman/options/sj-news/gao%40pztop.com>
>
> and entered the other user's password, that won't work.
>
>
>> All I want is 1) subscriber should able to log in and manage his
>> account, and 2) the member should be able to access the archive page. I
>> don't know how to set this up so could some one give me a hand? Thanks a
>> lot.
>
> It is possible the password has whitespace or other unprintable
> characters. Unfortunately, without command line access to the server,
> you can't fix this.
>
> If you have command line access, you can use Mailman's bin/withlist tool
> to examine and change the user's password. as in the following transcript
>
>   /path/to/mailman/bin/withlist -l sj-news
> Loading list sj-news (locked)
> The variable `m' is the gpc-test MailList instance
>>>> m.passwords['user at example.com']
> 'old_pw'
>>>> m.passwords['user at example.com'] = 'new_pw'
>>>> m.Save()
>>>>              <-      (enter control-D here to exit)
> Unlocking (but not saving) list: sj-news
> Finalizing
>
> If you don't have access to do this and can't enlist the help of someone
> who does, you'll have to delete the existing user and re-add her with a
> known password.
>

I spent couple hours and figured this out. It is not Mailman but Apache 
security setting cause the problem.

This mail list is a private internal mail list. The previous admin set 
Apache to only allowed certain user to access the whole site. This 
blocks all access except one user - mailadmin. Now I disabled this 
restriction, instead I set the maillist to "private"  for archive access.

Mark, thanks for the help.

Gao

-- 


From ron at vnetworx.net  Sat Mar 14 18:25:32 2015
From: ron at vnetworx.net (Ron Guerin)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 13:25:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman RSS patch, revised
Message-ID: <55046F0C.8020401@vnetworx.net>

I don't know if anyone else here is using the Vote-MM RSS patch, but
I've been using it to generate RSS feeds for selected lists for the last
couple of years.

Today, I found a bug in it, and a friend who knows Python was kind
enough to fix it for me.  Upstream is defunct and there's no way for me
to post this at the project site on SourceForge either, so for the
benefit of anyone else who might be using it, I'm going to post the fix
here.

In the patch, this line:
if (self.maillist.real_name not in mm_cfg.RSS_LISTS):

Should be changed to this line:
if (self.maillist.real_name.lower() not in [list.lower() for list in
mm_cfg.RSS_LISTS]):

This ensures you get a case-insensitive match on list names.  Without
this if the "real_name" gets any changes in case, it won't match the
corresponding entry in mm_cfg.py

Here's a copy of the patch, with the fix, against MM 2.1.18:
http://vnetworx.net/mm_rss.patch

To use it, you patch HyperArch.py with it, and add the following to
mm_cfg.py:

# RSS Feeds
RSS_LISTS = ['list1', 'list2', 'list3']

# Mails included in the RSS
RSS_NUM_MAILS = 100

- Ron

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar 15 07:40:39 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:40:39 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Mailman RSS patch, revised
In-Reply-To: <55046F0C.8020401@vnetworx.net>
References: <55046F0C.8020401@vnetworx.net>
Message-ID: <87zj7en4pk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Hey, if anybody is interested in *using* this patch, speak up
*now*, because tomoorwr GSoC intern applications open.  I can add this
to the task list (specifially, port to MM3 and  maintain for MM2
"preetty please").  But I'd like to know how high to prioritize when
evaluating proposals.

Steve


Ron Guerin writes:
 > I don't know if anyone else here is using the Vote-MM RSS patch, but
 > I've been using it to generate RSS feeds for selected lists for the last
 > couple of years.
 > 
 > Today, I found a bug in it, and a friend who knows Python was kind
 > enough to fix it for me.  Upstream is defunct and there's no way for me
 > to post this at the project site on SourceForge either, so for the
 > benefit of anyone else who might be using it, I'm going to post the fix
 > here.
 > 
 > In the patch, this line:
 > if (self.maillist.real_name not in mm_cfg.RSS_LISTS):
 > 
 > Should be changed to this line:
 > if (self.maillist.real_name.lower() not in [list.lower() for list in
 > mm_cfg.RSS_LISTS]):
 > 
 > This ensures you get a case-insensitive match on list names.  Without
 > this if the "real_name" gets any changes in case, it won't match the
 > corresponding entry in mm_cfg.py
 > 
 > Here's a copy of the patch, with the fix, against MM 2.1.18:
 > http://vnetworx.net/mm_rss.patch
 > 
 > To use it, you patch HyperArch.py with it, and add the following to
 > mm_cfg.py:
 > 
 > # RSS Feeds
 > RSS_LISTS = ['list1', 'list2', 'list3']
 > 
 > # Mails included in the RSS
 > RSS_NUM_MAILS = 100
 > 
 > - Ron
 > ------------------------------------------------------
 > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/stephen%40xemacs.org

From ron at vnetworx.net  Sun Mar 15 20:00:52 2015
From: ron at vnetworx.net (Ron Guerin)
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:00:52 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman RSS patch, revised
In-Reply-To: <87zj7en4pk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <55046F0C.8020401@vnetworx.net>
 <87zj7en4pk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <5505D6E4.20702@vnetworx.net>

On 3/15/2015 2:40 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Hey, if anybody is interested in *using* this patch, speak up
> *now*, because tomoorwr GSoC intern applications open.  I can add this
> to the task list (specifially, port to MM3 and  maintain for MM2
> "preetty please").  But I'd like to know how high to prioritize when
> evaluating proposals.

It needs a little work (the feed doesn't show the From: info), but I
find it very useful myself to monitor the lists I'm subscribed to.   I
used to use Justin Mason's external script to generate feeds, but I
think it's better to let Mailman make the feeds in realtime.

Might also be nice if it had a mailto link to click on to reply.

If nobody takes this up, but getting it into Mailman is a possibility, I
can probably persuade my friend to make the changes I just mentioned.
Unlikely he'd commit to maintaining it, but even as a non-Python person,
it doesn't look like the sort of thing that's going to need much
maintenance.

- Ron


From jimpop at gmail.com  Sun Mar 15 20:28:45 2015
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:28:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman RSS patch, revised
In-Reply-To: <87zj7en4pk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <55046F0C.8020401@vnetworx.net>
 <87zj7en4pk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR1768CzCFDrk1RDm821vmyW1hfUqW_51Eg8PvjBDB6HSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> Hey, if anybody is interested in *using* this patch, speak up
> *now*, because tomoorwr GSoC intern applications open.  I can add this
> to the task list (specifially, port to MM3 and  maintain for MM2
> "preetty please").  But I'd like to know how high to prioritize when
> evaluating proposals.

I don't presently use this script, but I would like to in the future.
It certainly seems like something that should be part of stock
mailman.

I'm willing to take on maintaining it if there are no interested GSoC hackers.

-Jim P.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Mar 16 02:15:06 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:15:06 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman RSS patch, revised
In-Reply-To: <CAGfsgR1768CzCFDrk1RDm821vmyW1hfUqW_51Eg8PvjBDB6HSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55046F0C.8020401@vnetworx.net>
 <87zj7en4pk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGfsgR1768CzCFDrk1RDm821vmyW1hfUqW_51Eg8PvjBDB6HSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <878uexg2ud.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Thanks for the feedback, Jim and Ron!

GSoC project description here:
http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Google_Summer_of_Code_2015 (#12).

Steve

Jim Popovitch writes:
 > On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
 > > Hey, if anybody is interested in *using* this patch, speak up
 > > *now*, because tomoorwr GSoC intern applications open.  I can add this
 > > to the task list (specifially, port to MM3 and  maintain for MM2
 > > "preetty please").  But I'd like to know how high to prioritize when
 > > evaluating proposals.
 > 
 > I don't presently use this script, but I would like to in the future.
 > It certainly seems like something that should be part of stock
 > mailman.
 > 
 > I'm willing to take on maintaining it if there are no interested GSoC hackers.
 > 
 > -Jim P.
 > ------------------------------------------------------
 > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
 > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
 > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/stephen%40xemacs.org

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Mon Mar 16 16:52:58 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:52:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman RSS patch, revised
In-Reply-To: <87zj7en4pk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <55046F0C.8020401@vnetworx.net>
 <87zj7en4pk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <5506FC5A.5080004@libertytrek.org>

On 3/15/2015 2:40 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> Hey, if anybody is interested in *using* this patch, speak up
> *now*, because tomoorwr GSoC intern applications open.  I can add this
> to the task list (specifially, port to MM3 and  maintain for MM2
> "preetty please").  But I'd like to know how high to prioritize when
> evaluating proposals.

Haven't used it before, but it sounds really interesting.

Also - I'd be highly unlikely to use it if I had to maintain the latch
myself, but would almost certainly use it if it was part of the core
Mailman codebase.

From Jan at EcoReality.org  Wed Mar 18 07:07:52 2015
From: Jan at EcoReality.org (Jan Steinman)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 23:07:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Any way to avoid "Message has implicit destination"
	bounces?
Message-ID: <F5A5D539-ECF6-4A4B-B574-3FE698DDF86D@EcoReality.org>

We have a couple small lists that we'd like to routinely Bcc: on certain emails. But every time I do, I get the "Message has implicit destination" bounce, and then I have to go in as moderator and approve the message.

I've looked through all the options, and I did Read The Fine Manual, but I see no obvious way to change this behaviour.

"RTFM" with a pointer to the particular thing to read is fine!

    Jan Steinman
    EcoReality Co-op, http://www.EcoReality.org
    2152 Fulford-Ganges Road
    Salt Spring Island, BC V8K 1Z7 CANADA
    +1 250.653.2024


From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Wed Mar 18 13:33:11 2015
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 08:33:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Any way to avoid "Message has implicit
 destination" bounces?
In-Reply-To: <F5A5D539-ECF6-4A4B-B574-3FE698DDF86D@EcoReality.org>
References: <F5A5D539-ECF6-4A4B-B574-3FE698DDF86D@EcoReality.org>
Message-ID: <55097087.2010307@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/18/15 2:07 AM, Jan Steinman wrote:
> We have a couple small lists that we'd like to routinely Bcc: on certain emails. But every time I do, I get the "Message has implicit destination" bounce, and then I have to go in as moderator and approve the message.
>
> I've looked through all the options, and I did Read The Fine Manual, but I see no obvious way to change this behaviour.
>
> "RTFM" with a pointer to the particular thing to read is fine!
>
>      Jan Steinman
The first item in the Privacy Options / Recipient filters 
enables/disables that behavior (require_explicit_destination)

If you want to generally have this behavior, but only allow messages 
destined to certain addresses be BCCed to the list, then you can add 
those addresses to the second item on that page (acceptable_aliases)

-- 
Richard Damon


From marco at stoecker-family.de  Wed Mar 18 22:46:25 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 22:46:25 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
Message-ID: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

I have Mailman up and running. I just sent an e-mail to 5 lists and
the e-mail came duplicated to the recipients. I checked the header and
the only difference is the following:

1. Header:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00
autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1

2. Header:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00
autolearn=ham version=3.3.1

How can a avoid duplicates in future? What is the reason?

BR
Marco
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From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 19 17:22:22 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:22:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net>

On 03/18/2015 02:46 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> I have Mailman up and running. I just sent an e-mail to 5 lists and
> the e-mail came duplicated to the recipients. I checked the header and
> the only difference is the following:
> 
> 1. Header:
> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00
> autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1
> 
> 2. Header:
> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00
> autolearn=ham version=3.3.1


I'm confused. Are you looking at all the headers or just those your MUA
shows you by default?

If you look at all the headers, at a minimum, some Received: headers and
Mailman's X-BeenThere: header should be different.


> How can a avoid duplicates in future? What is the reason?


Normally, if you cross post to 5 lists, people who are members of more
than one of the lists will receive a copy of the post from each of the
lists of which they are members.

The only way to avoid this is by using the Non-digest options ->
regular_exclude_lists feature. For example, if you regularly post a
single post to list1, list2, list3, list4 and list5, you could put
list2, list3, list4 and list5 in list1's regular_exclude_lists, and put
list3, list4 and list5 in list2's regular_exclude_lists, and put list4
and list5 in list3's regular_exclude_lists and finally put list5 in
list4's regular_exclude_lists.

Then if a post is addressed to all 5 lists, anyone who is a member of
list2, list3, list4 or list5 will not receive the post from list1 and
anyone who is a member of list3, list4 or list5 will not receive the
post from list2 and so on. See the (Details for regular_exclude_lists)
link for more info.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From marco at stoecker-family.de  Thu Mar 19 19:31:08 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 19:31:08 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 03/19/2015 05:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 03/18/2015 02:46 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>> 
>> I have Mailman up and running. I just sent an e-mail to 5 lists
>> and the e-mail came duplicated to the recipients. I checked the
>> header and the only difference is the following:
>> 
>> 1. Header: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0
>> tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1
>> 
>> 2. Header: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0
>> tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
> 
> 
> I'm confused. Are you looking at all the headers or just those your
> MUA shows you by default?

Indeed, I looked only to the headers I recieved
(Iceweasel->View->Message Source). Even now I checked those header my
wife got, because she and I are in different lists, but received
duplicates. Her headers seems identical.
> 
> If you look at all the headers, at a minimum, some Received:
> headers and Mailman's X-BeenThere: header should be different.
> 
> 
>> How can a avoid duplicates in future? What is the reason?
> 
> 
> Normally, if you cross post to 5 lists, people who are members of
> more than one of the lists will receive a copy of the post from
> each of the lists of which they are members.
> 
> The only way to avoid this is by using the Non-digest options -> 
> regular_exclude_lists feature. For example, if you regularly post
> a single post to list1, list2, list3, list4 and list5, you could
> put list2, list3, list4 and list5 in list1's regular_exclude_lists,
> and put list3, list4 and list5 in list2's regular_exclude_lists,
> and put list4 and list5 in list3's regular_exclude_lists and
> finally put list5 in list4's regular_exclude_lists.
> 
> Then if a post is addressed to all 5 lists, anyone who is a member
> of list2, list3, list4 or list5 will not receive the post from
> list1 and anyone who is a member of list3, list4 or list5 will not
> receive the post from list2 and so on. See the (Details for
> regular_exclude_lists) link for more info.

This hint is very useful to me as I have more lists with members that
are in more than one list.

But in this dedicated case I wrote to 5 lists where the members are
disjunct and my wife, and I got duplicates. I don't know why :-S

I assumed that the others got duplicates too, but I have to proof.

BR
Marco
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From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 19 20:32:48 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:32:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net>

On 03/19/2015 11:31 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> On 03/19/2015 05:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 03/18/2015 02:46 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>>
>>> I have Mailman up and running. I just sent an e-mail to 5 lists
>>> and the e-mail came duplicated to the recipients. I checked the
>>> header and the only difference is the following:
>>>
>>> 1. Header: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0
>>> tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1
>>>
>>> 2. Header: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0
>>> tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.3.1


OK. So there was only one duplicate, yes? And that duplication occurred
prior to the spam filtering that added the above header so presumably it
wasn't caused by filtering rules in your MUA.


> Indeed, I looked only to the headers I recieved
> (Iceweasel->View->Message Source). Even now I checked those header my
> wife got, because she and I are in different lists, but received
> duplicates. Her headers seems identical.


Are all the Received: headers identical including Queue IDs and time
stamps? If so, the duplication must have occurred late in the delivery
chain.

> But in this dedicated case I wrote to 5 lists where the members are
> disjunct and my wife, and I got duplicates. I don't know why :-S
> 
> I assumed that the others got duplicates too, but I have to proof.


It difficult to say what's happening here without seeing the MTA logs
from the various servers where duplication might have occurred, but
unless there are entries in Mailman's smtp-failure log on the Mailman
server, it is very unlikely that Mailman sent duplicates.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au  Thu Mar 19 22:19:12 2015
From: andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au (Andrew Stuart)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:19:12 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
Message-ID: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>

When I reply to a message on a mailing list, what is the ?right? way to do it?

Should I be deleting previous thread text from my response?

Should I be adding anything in?

Is there some general ideas for the ?right? way to reply to a message on a list?

as


From barry at list.org  Thu Mar 19 22:53:07 2015
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 17:53:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>

On Mar 20, 2015, at 08:19 AM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

>When I reply to a message on a mailing list, what is the ?right? way to do it?
>Should I be deleting previous thread text from my response?
>Should I be adding anything in?

Of course, Wikipedia is the font of all human knowledge and truth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post

This is an interesting question for me because I think the netiquette rules
I've been using for decades may be changing.

I've always found it proper and useful to include the quoted material of the
original message, but trim the quotes to just the bit you are responding to.
I'd call this interleaved-with-trimming.

Top posting has always been a serious breach of netiquette.

What I've found interesting is that some of my correspondents (off-list)
actually *want* top posting, and find anything else confusing.  I think I
understand why in at least some cases; Apple Mail top posts by default, and
some folks just don't like to go digging around in the email to find the
answer they're looking for.  I've actually tried to accommodate that when
sending email to them.

I see more and more mailing list and group emails not doing any trimming.  I
find that incredibly hard to parse because if they *are* interleaving
responses, you have to hunt through a huge amount of text.  To make things
worse, almost the entire conversation is retained so responses to responses to
responses just clutter things up and make more noise.  I wonder if webmail
u/is like gmail (which I don't use) encourage this style.

And don't get me started on HTML-only email or some reply styles that make no
distinction between the quoted original text and the reply.  I can barely read
those.

As the article mentions, there are enough different styles in widespread use
that it's best to conform to the norms of the community.  My own feeling is
that interleaved-with-trimming is the most conducive to mailing list
discussions.

Cheers,
-Barry

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Thu Mar 19 23:04:30 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:04:30 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <550B47EE.9090905@stoecker-family.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 03/19/2015 08:32 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 03/19/2015 11:31 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>> On 03/19/2015 05:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> On 03/18/2015 02:46 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I have Mailman up and running. I just sent an e-mail to 5
>>>> lists and the e-mail came duplicated to the recipients. I
>>>> checked the header and the only difference is the following:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Header: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 
>>>> tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1
>>>> 
>>>> 2. Header: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 
>>>> tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
> 
> 
> OK. So there was only one duplicate, yes? And that duplication
> occurred prior to the spam filtering that added the above header so
> presumably it wasn't caused by filtering rules in your MUA.

One duplicate I got and another one my wife got.

> 
> 
>> Indeed, I looked only to the headers I recieved 
>> (Iceweasel->View->Message Source). Even now I checked those
>> header my wife got, because she and I are in different lists, but
>> received duplicates. Her headers seems identical.
> 
> 
> Are all the Received: headers identical including Queue IDs and
> time stamps? If so, the duplication must have occurred late in the
> delivery chain.
> 
>> But in this dedicated case I wrote to 5 lists where the members
>> are disjunct and my wife, and I got duplicates. I don't know why
>> :-S
>> 
>> I assumed that the others got duplicates too, but I have to
>> proof.
> 
> 
> It difficult to say what's happening here without seeing the MTA
> logs from the various servers where duplication might have
> occurred, but unless there are entries in Mailman's smtp-failure
> log on the Mailman server, it is very unlikely that Mailman sent
> duplicates.

I got the section out of mail.log from the server during the time, it
occured. But where do I find the smtp-failure log file?

> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------ 
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ:
> http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy:
> http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ 
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/marco%40stoecker-family.de
>
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From andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au  Thu Mar 19 23:21:28 2015
From: andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au (Andrew Stuart)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:21:28 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5C90299D-8CAF-460C-8852-E524C6F35E79@supercoders.com.au>

I was thinking that people new to using Mailman could get a very simple email ?welcome to this list? on subscription, with brief pointers on how to do things.  To the uninitiated there might be a sense of not wanting to engage for fear of breaking something or doing it wrong.

I?m certain that the vast majority of less technical users don?t know how conversation threads work.

For example I?m still not really clear on which field the list address should go into, and does it matter what other addresses go into to and cc fields.  I suspect it doesn?t matter much but I haven?t yet gone to the trouble of working it out (hey that?s what I?m doing now!).

as


On 20 Mar 2015, at 8:53 am, Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:

On Mar 20, 2015, at 08:19 AM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

> When I reply to a message on a mailing list, what is the ?right? way to do it?
> Should I be deleting previous thread text from my response?
> Should I be adding anything in?

Of course, Wikipedia is the font of all human knowledge and truth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post

This is an interesting question for me because I think the netiquette rules
I've been using for decades may be changing.

I've always found it proper and useful to include the quoted material of the
original message, but trim the quotes to just the bit you are responding to.
I'd call this interleaved-with-trimming.

Top posting has always been a serious breach of netiquette.

What I've found interesting is that some of my correspondents (off-list)
actually *want* top posting, and find anything else confusing.  I think I
understand why in at least some cases; Apple Mail top posts by default, and
some folks just don't like to go digging around in the email to find the
answer they're looking for.  I've actually tried to accommodate that when
sending email to them.

I see more and more mailing list and group emails not doing any trimming.  I
find that incredibly hard to parse because if they *are* interleaving
responses, you have to hunt through a huge amount of text.  To make things
worse, almost the entire conversation is retained so responses to responses to
responses just clutter things up and make more noise.  I wonder if webmail
u/is like gmail (which I don't use) encourage this style.

And don't get me started on HTML-only email or some reply styles that make no
distinction between the quoted original text and the reply.  I can barely read
those.

As the article mentions, there are enough different styles in widespread use
that it's best to conform to the norms of the community.  My own feeling is
that interleaved-with-trimming is the most conducive to mailing list
discussions.

Cheers,
-Barry
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/andrew.stuart%40supercoders.com.au


From marco at stoecker-family.de  Thu Mar 19 23:22:05 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:22:05 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 03/19/2015 08:32 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 03/19/2015 11:31 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>> On 03/19/2015 05:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> On 03/18/2015 02:46 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I have Mailman up and running. I just sent an e-mail to 5
>>>> lists and the e-mail came duplicated to the recipients. I
>>>> checked the header and the only difference is the following:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Header: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 
>>>> tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1
>>>> 
>>>> 2. Header: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 
>>>> tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
> 
> 
> OK. So there was only one duplicate, yes? And that duplication
> occurred prior to the spam filtering that added the above header so
> presumably it wasn't caused by filtering rules in your MUA.
> 
> 
>> Indeed, I looked only to the headers I recieved 
>> (Iceweasel->View->Message Source). Even now I checked those
>> header my wife got, because she and I are in different lists, but
>> received duplicates. Her headers seems identical.
> 
> 
> Are all the Received: headers identical including Queue IDs and
> time stamps? If so, the duplication must have occurred late in the
> delivery chain.
> 
>> But in this dedicated case I wrote to 5 lists where the members
>> are disjunct and my wife, and I got duplicates. I don't know why
>> :-S
>> 
>> I assumed that the others got duplicates too, but I have to
>> proof.
> 
> 
> It difficult to say what's happening here without seeing the MTA
> logs from the various servers where duplication might have
> occurred, but unless there are entries in Mailman's smtp-failure
> log on the Mailman server, it is very unlikely that Mailman sent
> duplicates.

Ahh, just found Mailman's log file folder:
smtp-failure log is empty for yesterday but
smtp log shows the following:
Mar 18 22:17:05 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listA
for 3 recips, completed in 13.036 seconds
Mar 18 22:17:16 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listB
for 14 recips, completed in 10.842 seconds
Mar 18 22:17:17 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listC
for 3 recips, completed in 1.194 seconds
Mar 18 22:17:21 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listD
for 13 recips, completed in 3.942 seconds
Mar 18 22:17:24 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listE
for 6 recips, completed in 2.504 seconds
Mar 18 22:17:25 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listC
for 3 recips, completed in 1.198 seconds
Mar 18 22:17:29 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listB
for 14 recips, completed in 3.784 seconds
Mar 18 22:17:33 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listD
for 13 recips, completed in 3.946 seconds
Mar 18 22:17:35 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listE
for 6 recips, completed in 2.515 seconds
Mar 18 22:17:38 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listA
for 3 recips, completed in 2.905 seconds

This ist the time I sent that e-mail to 5 lists (the announcement that
the Mailman server is up and running and for future use) and it seems
to me, that it was sent 2 times to each list, wasn't it?
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From cpz at tuunq.com  Thu Mar 19 22:56:00 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 14:56:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com>

On 3/19/2015 2:19 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:
> When I reply to a message on a mailing list, what is the ?right? way to do it?
> Should I be deleting previous thread text from my response?
> Should I be adding anything in?
> Is there some general ideas for the ?right? way to reply to a message on a list?

It all depends, and is rife with arguments. Look on line for 
"top-posting/bottom-posting" and "reply-list/reply-sender" and you'll find 
many, ahem, strident arguments for each way.

For most lists, I press the "reply-list" button, delete the extraneous text, 
and enter my response (as I've done here).

At the very least, remove duplicated list footers, since each message will 
get a new one.

z!


From fmouse at fmp.com  Thu Mar 19 23:47:28 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 17:47:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 14:56 -0700, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> On 3/19/2015 2:19 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:
> > When I reply to a message on a mailing list, what is the ?right? way to do it?
> > Should I be deleting previous thread text from my response?
> > Should I be adding anything in?
> > Is there some general ideas for the ?right? way to reply to a message on a list?
> 
> It all depends, and is rife with arguments. Look on line for 
> "top-posting/bottom-posting" and "reply-list/reply-sender" and you'll find 
> many, ahem, strident arguments for each way.
> 
> For most lists, I press the "reply-list" button, delete the extraneous text, 
> and enter my response (as I've done here).
> 
> At the very least, remove duplicated list footers, since each message will 
> get a new one.

In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.

Andrew said:
> For example I?m still not really clear on which field the list address
> should go into, and does it matter what other addresses go into to and
> cc fields.  I suspect it doesn?t matter much but I haven?t yet gone to
> the trouble of working it out (hey that?s what I?m doing now!).

It's pretty simple, actually.  The list address goes into either the To
or Cc field, and if you want others, not on the list to receive a copy,
put them in the Cc field also, but don't go overboard because some
systems will barf on "Too many recipients".  Two or three additional
recipients shouldn't be a problem.  Addresses can be separated with
commas, or with semicolons in the case of MS mail products such as
Outlook.

It is polite, though, to make sure you're not sending duplicate posts to
people by doing a "Reply to All" which will probably send a copy of your
reply to _both_ the list and the original poster.  I think that this is
a common point of confusion.  "All" in this context doesn't mean "all
the list subscribers", but "all the addresses in the headers."

As far as editing, top posting, bottom posting, etc. it's just a matter
of using good sense.  All communication should get as much meaning into
its context as possible, with as little "noise" as possible.  So as Carl
said, pull out extra footers and everything else that's not relevant to
the immediate focus of the conversation.  If you can read your own post,
and it makes good sense and gets your point across, as concisely as
possible, it doesn't matter what you cut or leave, or if you top post or
bottom post.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 19 23:55:34 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 15:55:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net>

On 3/19/2015 3:22 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> Ahh, just found Mailman's log file folder:
> smtp-failure log is empty for yesterday but
> smtp log shows the following:
> Mar 18 22:17:05 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listA
> for 3 recips, completed in 13.036 seconds
> Mar 18 22:17:16 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listB
> for 14 recips, completed in 10.842 seconds
> Mar 18 22:17:17 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listC
> for 3 recips, completed in 1.194 seconds
> Mar 18 22:17:21 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listD
> for 13 recips, completed in 3.942 seconds
> Mar 18 22:17:24 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listE
> for 6 recips, completed in 2.504 seconds
> Mar 18 22:17:25 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listC
> for 3 recips, completed in 1.198 seconds
> Mar 18 22:17:29 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listB
> for 14 recips, completed in 3.784 seconds
> Mar 18 22:17:33 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listD
> for 13 recips, completed in 3.946 seconds
> Mar 18 22:17:35 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listE
> for 6 recips, completed in 2.515 seconds
> Mar 18 22:17:38 2015 (2590) <5509EB1C.8050605 at domain.de> smtp to listA
> for 3 recips, completed in 2.905 seconds
> 
> This ist the time I sent that e-mail to 5 lists (the announcement that
> the Mailman server is up and running and for future use) and it seems
> to me, that it was sent 2 times to each list, wasn't it?


Yes, but if the post was sent twice to each list, the Received: headers
of the two posts you received must differ in detail.

Anyway, look at the MTA log and see if there were two deliveries of the
post to each Mailman list at around 22:17.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From pshute at nuw.org.au  Fri Mar 20 00:50:43 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:50:43 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB846@nuwvicms2>

Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> It is polite, though, to make sure you're not sending 
> duplicate posts to people by doing a "Reply to All" which 
> will probably send a copy of your reply to _both_ the list 
> and the original poster.  I think that this is a common point 
> of confusion.  "All" in this context doesn't mean "all the 
> list subscribers", but "all the addresses in the headers."

In all the mail clients I use, I get a choice of Reply, which for this list will reply only to the original sender, or Reply All, which sends it to the original sender and the list. If I want to reply just to the list, I have to hit Reply All and then delete the original sender's address. I usually don't bother, and I assumed most people don't. Has that been annoying people? I thought mailman was smart enough not to send another copy to people in the Cc list.
 
> As far as editing, top posting, bottom posting, etc. it's 
> just a matter of using good sense.  All communication should 
> get as much meaning into its context as possible, with as 
> little "noise" as possible.  So as Carl said, pull out extra 
> footers and everything else that's not relevant to the 
> immediate focus of the conversation.  If you can read your 
> own post, and it makes good sense and gets your point across, 
> as concisely as possible, it doesn't matter what you cut or 
> leave, or if you top post or bottom post.

I think people are generally limited by whatever their mail client will support. Outlook likes to set you up for top posting. I've only managed to get my Outlook to generate the > quote indicators by telling it to open my mail in Plain Text format, and I edited the "Original Message" headers to the simple form above manually. I don't like to interquote in a section claiming to be "Original Message" because to me that implies it's been left intact.

When I had a Blackberry, I had no choice by to top quote. The quoted material is either there or not there on a Blackberry, it can't be edited. Now I have an iPhone, I can edit the message and the header is acceptable for interquoting.

We often see messages here that have replies alternating between top and bottom quoting, which can be very confusing, but often people have little choice.

I agree with the other reply that said people are tending towards top quoting more and more. Many people simply top quote as encouraged by their mail client, and haven't considered that there's any other way. Often people only read the reply above the start of the quoted material, and ignore interquoted material anyway!

Peter Shute

From cpz at tuunq.com  Fri Mar 20 00:57:05 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 16:57:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB846@nuwvicms2>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB846@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <550B6251.7060909@tuunq.com>

On 3/19/2015 4:50 PM, Peter Shute wrote:

> I agree with the other reply that said people are tending towards top
> quoting more and more. Many people simply top quote as encouraged by
> their mail client, and haven't considered that there's any other way.

Do you mean where the new content is at the start of the message (usually 
called "top-posting") or where the quoted/original material is at the start 
(usually "bottom-posting" or "inter-posting")?

z!


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 01:33:14 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 17:33:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB846@nuwvicms2>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB846@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <550B6ACA.8050300@msapiro.net>

On 03/19/2015 04:50 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
>> It is polite, though, to make sure you're not sending 
>> duplicate posts to people by doing a "Reply to All" which 
>> will probably send a copy of your reply to _both_ the list 
>> and the original poster.  I think that this is a common point 
>> of confusion.  "All" in this context doesn't mean "all the 
>> list subscribers", but "all the addresses in the headers."
> 
> In all the mail clients I use, I get a choice of Reply, which for this list will reply only to the original sender, or Reply All, which sends it to the original sender and the list. If I want to reply just to the list, I have to hit Reply All and then delete the original sender's address. I usually don't bother, and I assumed most people don't. Has that been annoying people? I thought mailman was smart enough not to send another copy to people in the Cc list.


On Mailman lists at least it is a user option to receive or not receive
two copies of list posts in which they are also directly addressed.
Thus, I feel it is never necessary to remove the poster's address from a
'reply all'. In fact there is at least one good reason not to. Namely,
the poster might be a digest member or even on some lists, a non-member,
and 'reply all' gets them a copy now as opposed to in the next digest or
never.

That said, I tend to use 'reply list' when it's available.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Mar 20 01:44:21 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 19:44:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB846@nuwvicms2>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB846@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <1426812261.64327.30.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 10:50 +1100, Peter Shute wrote:
> In all the mail clients I use, I get a choice of Reply, which for this
> list will reply only to the original sender, or Reply All, which sends
> it to the original sender and the list.

I'm kinda retro when comes to mail clients.  My MUA of choice is
Evolution for Linux.  It's buggy, the source code is bloated, and there
are some things it doesn't do well and probably never will.  That having
been said, it's the only MUA I know of that treats users as technically
proficient adults - something I need as a mail administrator.  See
<http://www.fmp.com/living_with_evolution.html>

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 01:45:58 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 17:45:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>

On 03/19/2015 02:53 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> 
> As the article mentions, there are enough different styles in widespread use
> that it's best to conform to the norms of the community.  My own feeling is
> that interleaved-with-trimming is the most conducive to mailing list
> discussions.


+1

Although, I have fought and lost the battles with my cycling club list
members.

On our main discussion list, digests are virtually unreadable at times
because it is nearly impossible to find the original material in the
multiple quotes of quotes of quotes, and similarly for archives.

And some people on the list continue to insist that they like top
posting with full quoting because they only have to read the latest post
in a thread (albeit from the bottom up), even though it's been pointed
out to them multiple times that threads are trees and even if everyone
quotes everything, any particular leaf only contains the posts on that
branch.

Top posting with full quoting is also encouraged by MUAs like Gmail's
web client that hide the quoted material unless you ask for it.

I do understand that in some business situations (contract negotiations,
attorney/client communication and the like), it is useful and pretty
much demanded that each message contain the full transcript of what went
before, but this has no place on an email discussion list.

This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching
the surface.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au  Fri Mar 20 01:51:38 2015
From: andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au (Andrew Stuart)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:51:38 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <247E1E6F-8B65-40AE-95F4-5FFC12B5DFDF@supercoders.com.au>

Seems like there are various approaches and opinions.

Is it practical to come up with a very short list of instructions for non-highly-technical end users to give them so hints and confidence to get started using a list?

Thinking a clerk in the accounts department at large-corporation-X has been subscribed to the list annualreport at list.bigcorp.example.com

How can we support them in rapidly becoming confident enough to post and use the list?

as


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Fri Mar 20 01:52:40 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:52:40 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550B6251.7060909@tuunq.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB846@nuwvicms2>
 <550B6251.7060909@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB84A@nuwvicms2>

Carl Zwanzig wrote:

> > I agree with the other reply that said people are tending 
> towards top 
> > quoting more and more. Many people simply top quote as 
> encouraged by 
> > their mail client, and haven't considered that there's any 
> other way.
> 
> Do you mean where the new content is at the start of the 
> message (usually called "top-posting") or where the 
> quoted/original material is at the start (usually 
> "bottom-posting" or "inter-posting")?

Yes, I meant top-posting, not top-quoting. I've probably been using that wrong terminology for years.

Peter Shute

From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Mar 20 01:59:04 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 19:59:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1426813144.64327.37.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 17:45 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Top posting with full quoting is also encouraged by MUAs like Gmail's
> web client that hide the quoted material unless you ask for it.

It's also encouraged by iDevices with iOS using mail clients which
insert the quoted material _below_ the user's sig.  Converting to bottom
posted isn't really trivial and involves a bit of cutting and pasting.

> I do understand that in some business situations (contract negotiations,
> attorney/client communication and the like), it is useful and pretty
> much demanded that each message contain the full transcript of what went
> before, but this has no place on an email discussion list.
> 
> This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching
> the surface.

This is one of the reasons I've long ago abdicated my job as list
moderator for _all_ the lists I host and to which I also belong.  I'm
happy to be the technical admin, and deal with problems with spam and
the occasional technically disruptive member or ex-member, but I don't
want to get into the day-to-day decisions about what's allowed or not on
a list.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Fri Mar 20 02:06:17 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:06:17 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <247E1E6F-8B65-40AE-95F4-5FFC12B5DFDF@supercoders.com.au>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
 <247E1E6F-8B65-40AE-95F4-5FFC12B5DFDF@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB84B@nuwvicms2>

Andrew Stuart wrote:

> Is it practical to come up with a very short list of 
> instructions for non-highly-technical end users to give them 
> so hints and confidence to get started using a list?
> 
> Thinking a clerk in the accounts department at 
> large-corporation-X has been subscribed to the list 
> annualreport at list.bigcorp.example.com
> 
> How can we support them in rapidly becoming confident enough 
> to post and use the list?

Maybe you could put some examples on a web page of what you consider to be desirable quoting practices, in the hope that new users might take up those practices and encourage older users to conform. But if they're using the same email client they use for their other day to day email, they'll most likely just do what they've always done. And it's one thing to berate users of some obsure special interest mailing list for their quoting practices, it's another thing if it's your boss.

I think the best you can usually hope for is that some of them will trim the quotes occasionally. In the end, unless the discussion gets very complicated, it usually doesn't really matter as far as people being able to understand messages is concerned. Lots of repeated quoting can make messages big though.

Peter Shute

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Fri Mar 20 02:15:27 2015
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 21:15:27 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/19/15 5:53 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> What I've found interesting is that some of my correspondents (off-list)
> actually *want* top posting, and find anything else confusing.  I think I
> understand why in at least some cases; Apple Mail top posts by default, and
> some folks just don't like to go digging around in the email to find the
> answer they're looking for.  I've actually tried to accommodate that when
> sending email to them.
>
> Cheers,
> -Barry
Another reason that I have been told by some people that they want 
people to top post is that their client will show in the message list a 
summary of the first line of the message, and they want that to be the 
new content to see if it is worth reading, as opposed to the quote of 
the message they have already decided to read or not. (of course, the 
answer is that it would be better if the client showed the first 
non-quote line if possible).

-- 
Richard Damon


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 02:34:48 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:34:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <550B7938.7060008@msapiro.net>

On 03/19/2015 06:15 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

> Another reason that I have been told by some people that they want
> people to top post is that their client will show in the message list a
> summary of the first line of the message, and they want that to be the
> new content to see if it is worth reading, as opposed to the quote of
> the message they have already decided to read or not. (of course, the
> answer is that it would be better if the client showed the first
> non-quote line if possible).


And K9 mail on my android phone does exactly that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dandrews at visi.com  Fri Mar 20 02:59:53 2015
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:59:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <auto-000019045956@mailfront2.g2host.com>

At 07:45 PM 3/19/2015, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>On 03/19/2015 02:53 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> >
> > As the article mentions, there are enough different styles in 
> widespread use
> > that it's best to conform to the norms of the community.  My own feeling is
> > that interleaved-with-trimming is the most conducive to mailing list
> > discussions.
>
>
>+1
>
>Although, I have fought and lost the battles with my cycling club list
>members.
>
>On our main discussion list, digests are virtually unreadable at times
>because it is nearly impossible to find the original material in the
>multiple quotes of quotes of quotes, and similarly for archives.
>
>And some people on the list continue to insist that they like top
>posting with full quoting because they only have to read the latest post
>in a thread (albeit from the bottom up), even though it's been pointed
>out to them multiple times that threads are trees and even if everyone
>quotes everything, any particular leaf only contains the posts on that
>branch.
>
>Top posting with full quoting is also encouraged by MUAs like Gmail's
>web client that hide the quoted material unless you ask for it.
>
>I do understand that in some business situations (contract negotiations,
>attorney/client communication and the like), it is useful and pretty
>much demanded that each message contain the full transcript of what went
>before, but this has no place on an email discussion list.
>
>This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching
>the surface.


Everyone should remember that your needs are not necessarily the same 
as others.  I run some 250 lists that primarily cater to blind 
persons, and top posting is the norm.  While we can sort it all out, 
despite quoting style, top posting is the easiest in most 
situations.  There is no one right, or wrong way.




         David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org


From cpz at tuunq.com  Fri Mar 20 04:14:34 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:14:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <auto-000019045956@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
 <auto-000019045956@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <550B909A.4040502@tuunq.com>

On 3/19/2015 6:59 PM, David Andrews wrote:

> Everyone should remember that your needs are not necessarily the same as
> others.  I run some 250 lists that primarily cater to blind persons, and top
> posting is the norm.

And for those lists, it's accepted practice because it works for them. Most 
of the lists I'm on highly discourage top-posting, which works well for 
their readers. (I observe that the message I'm replying to was entire 
bottom-posted.)

> While we can sort it all out, despite quoting style,
> top posting is the easiest in most situations.

Not sure what you mean about quoting there as top-posting pretty much 
dictates the quoting style- everything from previous messages is below the 
new material; it's simply a matter of how much you remove. So even based 
solely on the comments on this list, I think you'll find that top-posting is 
not "the easiest". Well, maybe "easiest" ("laziest"?) in the sense of 
effort, but not "best" or "most useful" or "easiest to follow".

And for forestall the arguments about not trimming messages- sure, memory is 
cheaper now, comm lines are faster, drives are bigger, most people use GUI 
mail readers, but that's no reason to cart around sometimes thousands of 
no-longer-relevant verbiage. Especially when adding a two-line comment...

Anyway, YMMV, mine does.

z!


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar 20 06:29:22 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:29:22 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com>
 <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87d244qlsd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > As far as editing, top posting, bottom posting, etc. it's just a matter
 > of using good sense.

But there's one aspect of good sense you left out, namely "When in
Rome...".  This list strongly prefers interlinear posting (posting
below the relevant paragraph) if you reply to more than one point at a
time.

Other lists equally strongly prefer top-posting.

I don't know of anybody who prefers "bottom-posting" (and it's a bad
idea to use that term as I've seen newbies instructed to "bottom-post"
do exactly that, leaving 50 lines of original text and adding two
lines at the bottom).

Which is used does matter, as (1) it's easier to find the new text if
everybody does it the same and (2) I at least make far fewer "the post
has no new content" errors with posts that follow the list convention
than those that don't.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar 20 06:33:22 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:33:22 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <87bnjoqllp.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > This is an interesting question for me because I think the
 > netiquette rules I've been using for decades may be changing.

http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/Teach/IntroSES/socsys.html

Yes-Virginia-economics-can-be-useful-ly y'rs,

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar 20 06:39:30 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:39:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <5C90299D-8CAF-460C-8852-E524C6F35E79@supercoders.com.au>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <5C90299D-8CAF-460C-8852-E524C6F35E79@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <87a8z8qlbh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Andrew Stuart writes:

 > For example I?m still not really clear on which field the list
 > address should go into,

To or CC.  Most Mailman lists will refuse to accept mail BCC'd to the
list.

 > and does it matter what other addresses go into to and cc fields.

It doesn't matter for mechanical purposes.  To, CC, and BCC are all
routed the same way (using RCPT TO aka "envelope recipient" at the
SMTP level), and To and CC are handled the same way by almost all
receiving MUAs (BCC is, of course, as invisible to the receiving MUA
as it is to the human).

So To is your target, and CC is the innocent bystander, and BCC are
the sniggerers in the peanut gallery, as always.



From jdd at dodin.org  Fri Mar 20 07:58:18 2015
From: jdd at dodin.org (jdd)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 07:58:18 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <550BC50A.2030205@dodin.org>

Le 20/03/2015 01:45, Mark Sapiro a ?crit :

> This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching
> the surface.
>
smartphones makes things horrible, on android, selecting text for 
deletion is nearly impossible :-((

jdd

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Fri Mar 20 08:16:21 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 18:16:21 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550BC50A.2030205@dodin.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
 <550BC50A.2030205@dodin.org>
Message-ID: <9E3631BD-D3CD-4BB0-AF72-02D6DE071413@nuw.org.au>

> On 20 Mar 2015, at 6:05 pm, jdd <jdd at dodin.org> wrote:
> 
> Le 20/03/2015 01:45, Mark Sapiro a ?crit :
> 
>> This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching
>> the surface.
> smartphones makes things horrible, on android, selecting text for 
> deletion is nearly impossible :-((

Getting off the subject, do you mean selecting quoted text, or any text? I've never used an Android device, and I assumed that this kind of basic task would be easier than on an iPhone. Perhaps not.

Peter Shute

From jdd at dodin.org  Fri Mar 20 08:19:56 2015
From: jdd at dodin.org (jdd)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:19:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <9E3631BD-D3CD-4BB0-AF72-02D6DE071413@nuw.org.au>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
 <550BC50A.2030205@dodin.org>
 <9E3631BD-D3CD-4BB0-AF72-02D6DE071413@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <550BCA1C.7020205@dodin.org>

Le 20/03/2015 08:16, Peter Shute a ?crit :

> Getting off the subject, do you mean selecting quoted text, or any
> text? I've never used an Android device, and I assumed that this kind
> of basic task would be easier than on an iPhone. Perhaps not.

selecting old text to trim it. May be I have too large fingers :-(

jdd

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Fri Mar 20 09:23:09 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 19:23:09 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550BCA1C.7020205@dodin.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
 <550BC50A.2030205@dodin.org>
 <9E3631BD-D3CD-4BB0-AF72-02D6DE071413@nuw.org.au>
 <550BCA1C.7020205@dodin.org>
Message-ID: <544C51A9-695B-440B-B677-5F11FF1B99DB@nuw.org.au>

> On 20 Mar 2015, at 6:20 pm, jdd <jdd at dodin.org> wrote:
> 
> Le 20/03/2015 08:16, Peter Shute a ?crit :
> 
>> Getting off the subject, do you mean selecting quoted text, or any
>> text? I've never used an Android device, and I assumed that this kind
>> of basic task would be easier than on an iPhone. Perhaps not.
> 
> selecting old text to trim it. May be I have too large fingers :-(

If you're referring to the problem of getting the selection boundaries in exactly the right spot, I'm well familiar with that. So easy to get them within one or two characters, but requires excessive concentration and effort to get them closer. Don't know why they don't add cursor keys to help with it.

Peter Shute 

From len.ward at gmail.com  Fri Mar 20 10:59:06 2015
From: len.ward at gmail.com (len ward)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 19:59:06 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate message
Message-ID: <CAFj+_kWLmpbg8K_g=5=S9i2PYtnoTYRjp7qhfFRr7v9=uSuYiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi
Every time I send a message, or anyone for that matter, a duplicate message
is received.  The avoid duplicate button is off.  Can you help please?
Regards Len

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Fri Mar 20 11:06:03 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:06:03 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503201026100.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

On Fri, 20 Mar 2015, Andrew Stuart wrote:

> When I reply to a message on a mailing list, what is the ???right??? way 
> to do it?

Not sure if there is a right way for everybody. Definitely there is a way 
I like it to happen and ways which I find extremely annoying.

> Should I be deleting previous thread text from my response?

For me, yes please do.

> Should I be adding anything in?

Your contribution, unless it is "me too" :-)

Talking seriously. I think there are two separate matters. Knowledgeable 
users may "program" their MUA (or Mail Delivery Agent) to follow their 
preferences almost in any case. It is more difficult for a list 
administrator or a poster to force all correspondents to follow a given 
policy.

- One matter is : to whom shall the reply go ?

   Here the list administrator has the power to set a preference for the
   list (reply goes to poster, reply goes to list or eventually even
   redirect the reply or block it ... the same can occur for a single
   circular mail with appropriate header tweaking), and the user with a
   proper MUA should have the capability to reset the preference to what he
   likes.

   In most cases lists are DISCUSSION lists, so in this case MY preference
   is that the reply shall go to the list ONLY and not ALSO to the poster,
   Clever list managers properly configured will avoid sending duplicate
   replyes if sent to the list and to one list member.

   I am annoyed when this does not work and I receive two copies, but I
   just check the message id and remove one redundant copy.

   If the list is not configured for reply to list, if it is a list I use
   rarely I just do Reply All, this will compose the header to send to
   poster and list, and I remove the poster address.

   (and of course there are case in which I WANT to respond privately so
   I remove the list address)

   For lists I use regularly I have configured my Alpine MUA to use a
   role which replies just to the list.

   There are cases of lists for which a reply to the list is unwanted.
   I remember a technical list on which replies to the posts (which were
   sort of help requests) were FORBIDDEN, Replies went to the OP, which
   had the commitment at the end to post a summary.
   It worked quite nicely because members were disciplined people.

   Other cases when a reply is unwanted are circular messages, like
   conference announcements. This applies also to messages sent to
   a distribution list (not an exploder). Proper usage of headers like
   Bcc: or better Lcc: (supported by Alpine) and Reply-To should automatize
   the fact replies go only to the poster.

- The other matter is : top posting, bottom posting, no quoting,
   trimmed quoting

   Here I definitely hate top posting, but I am also annoyed by the fact
   that people quote entire messages, and so by the fact I will save to
   a folder many copies of redundant text I already had in the previous
   message.

   In this case I have instructed my mail delivery agent (procmail) to
   filter out the unwanted stuff (since I could not educate my
   correspondents)
   http://sax.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/Procmail/noquotenohtml.html

   So my preference is to either reply with my contribution, or trim the
   original text to the parts I want to reply, and interleave my answers.
   This very message is an example

   (to do multiply interleaving, i.e. reply to more posters, I have to pass
   via an external clipboard)

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> I do understand that in some business situations (contract negotiations, 
> attorney/client communication and the like), it is useful and pretty 
> much demanded that each message contain the full transcript of what went 
> before, but this has no place on an email discussion list.

   I do agree that sending copy of a full correspondence is rarely a case
   for a mailing list, unless perhaps one wants to inform a new subscriber
   of past correspondence

   If the mailing list supports archiving, the easiest way to do it is to
   refer the new subscriber to the archives.

   If one wants instead to inform a new team member of past correspondence
   exchanged with other recipients outside of a mailing list, a nice way
   is to forward him a MIME digest of all past messages (with Alpine one
   can easily select a block of messages and Apply Forward ... one can also
   unpack a digest into a folder, but that's more tricky)

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 12:27:51 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 04:27:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate message
In-Reply-To: <CAFj+_kWLmpbg8K_g=5=S9i2PYtnoTYRjp7qhfFRr7v9=uSuYiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFj+_kWLmpbg8K_g=5=S9i2PYtnoTYRjp7qhfFRr7v9=uSuYiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <550C0437.3080409@msapiro.net>

On 03/20/2015 02:59 AM, len ward wrote:
> Hi
> Every time I send a message, or anyone for that matter, a duplicate message
> is received.  The avoid duplicate button is off.  Can you help please?


If avoid duplicates is Off, you will receive duplicates if you are a
direct recipient of the message. E.g., if the message is sent To: the
list with Cc: to you, you will receive both the list copy and the direct
Cc:.

Also, duplication is sometimes due to filtering rules in your MUA
creating the duplicates.

If neither of the above explains it, we'd need to see at a minimum the
full headers from both copies to be able to say more.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 12:59:17 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 04:59:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <87a8z8qlbh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <5C90299D-8CAF-460C-8852-E524C6F35E79@supercoders.com.au>
 <87a8z8qlbh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <550C0B95.6080504@msapiro.net>

On 03/19/2015 10:39 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Andrew Stuart writes:
> 
>  > and does it matter what other addresses go into to and cc fields.
> 
> It doesn't matter for mechanical purposes.  To, CC, and BCC are all
> routed the same way (using RCPT TO aka "envelope recipient" at the
> SMTP level), and To and CC are handled the same way by almost all
> receiving MUAs (BCC is, of course, as invisible to the receiving MUA
> as it is to the human).


There is one case with Mailman lists where it matters, at least in MM
2.1, but I think MM 3 too.

If a list member has 'avoid dups' set and that member is a Cc: addressee
of a post, that member will not receive the post from the list AND that
member's address will be removed from the Cc: list of the post delivered
to the other list members. This is not the case if the member is a To:
adressee; the member's list copy is still suppressed by 'avoid dups',
but her addresds is not removed from the To: of the post from the list.

The removal is to prevent Cc: lists from growing too large in threads
with many participants.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From ayma at tip.nl  Fri Mar 20 13:27:48 2015
From: ayma at tip.nl (A.K. Eyma)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 13:27:48 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list / Re:
In-Reply-To: <mailman.49.1426849203.6071.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.49.1426849203.6071.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <550C1244.4020803@tip.nl>

While in the topic of replying, why does mailman put the
"Re:" before the [listname]? Or rather inserts the list
name after the Re: ? (For you send it out as "Re: The right way")

> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing
> 	list

It likely is my odd taste, and perhaps most software does it
thusly, but IMHO it looks bad optically and makes no sense. ;)

Having all mail of a list come in with [listname] first in
each subject line is more tidy. In that way you would
differentiate at one glance in your inbox between

Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way

for responses that have been sent offlist to you

and

[Mailman-Users] Re: The "right" way

for responses that have been sent onlist, i.e. via the list.

[] is the list's 'stamp' on mails, why insert it after Re:?

I am making sense, really! ;))


kind regards,
Aayko Eyma



From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Fri Mar 20 13:46:14 2015
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:46:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list / Re:
In-Reply-To: <550C1244.4020803@tip.nl>
References: <mailman.49.1426849203.6071.mailman-users@python.org>
 <550C1244.4020803@tip.nl>
Message-ID: <550C1696.8090108@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/20/15 8:27 AM, A.K. Eyma wrote:
> Having all mail of a list come in with [listname] first in
> each subject line is more tidy. In that way you would
> differentiate at one glance in your inbox between
>
> Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way
>
> for responses that have been sent offlist to you
>
> and
>
> [Mailman-Users] Re: The "right" way
>
> for responses that have been sent onlist, i.e. via the list.
>
> [] is the list's 'stamp' on mails, why insert it after Re:?
>
> I am making sense, really! ;))
>
>
> kind regards,
> Aayko Eyma
>
I suspect that it isn't that the list added the name after the Re:, but 
that the MUA left it there and added the Re: first, and the list saw 
that the tag was already in the message and left it there. This keeps 
the subject tidy.

If the list added a new one in front, you would get multiple list tags 
in the subject.

If the list also removed the old one, you are apt to get multiple Re: 
unless the list also removed those (which makes it harder to see which 
are replies) You will get the multiple Re: as the normal rule is add Re 
unless the message already begins with one, and your moved tag makes the 
re no longer in front, so it won't suppress adding it again.

-- 
Richard Damon


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 14:05:29 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 06:05:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subject Prefixing - was: The "right" way to
 reply to a mailing list / Re:
In-Reply-To: <550C1244.4020803@tip.nl>
References: <mailman.49.1426849203.6071.mailman-users@python.org>
 <550C1244.4020803@tip.nl>
Message-ID: <550C1B19.8090906@msapiro.net>

On 03/20/2015 05:27 AM, A.K. Eyma wrote:
> While in the topic of replying, why does mailman put the
> "Re:" before the [listname]? Or rather inserts the list
> name after the Re: ? (For you send it out as "Re: The right way")
> 
>> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing
>>     list


Actually, this is not Mailman in many cases. Consider that you receive a
list post. Mailman has prepended the subject_prefix so it come to you with

Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

You reply and your mail client adds Re: to the beginning of the Subject:
so your reply is sent to Mailman with

Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

Now Mailman sees the Subject: already contains the prefix and does no
further modification.

Actually, that's a simplification of what Mailman does, but the result
is the same.

However, since Mailman 2.1.6 there is a site option to manipulate the
prefix so it always comes first and optionally contains a sequence
number. The site can set OLD_STYLE_PREFIXING to No in mm_cfg.py and
subject prefixes will always be added/moved to at the beginning of the
subject.

Additionally, and regardless of the site option, a list admin can
include a %d replacement in subject_prefix, e.g., set it to

[Listname %d]

and this will both force the prefix to the beginning and add a sequence
number to the prefix.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Fri Mar 20 14:40:24 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:40:24 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <87d244qlsd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <87d244qlsd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <550C2348.60102@libertytrek.org>

On 3/20/2015 1:29 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> I don't know of anybody who prefers "bottom-posting" (and it's a bad
> idea to use that term as I've seen newbies instructed to "bottom-post"
> do exactly that, leaving 50 lines of original text and adding two
> lines at the bottom).

And I've seen many people use this exact example of 'bottom or inline
posting' in support of their argument in favor of top-posting, ignoring
arguments about trimming all irrelevant quoted text, implying that
anyone and everyone who supports bottom/inline posting wants you to
quote everything, untrimmed, and put your response below it.

It irks me no end...

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Fri Mar 20 14:52:19 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:52:19 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>

On 3/19/2015 6:47 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
> will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
> from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
> reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.

I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.

In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
actually use do this.

From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Mar 20 14:57:20 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:57:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <87d244qlsd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <87d244qlsd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1E0AA0FD-FBD5-40F8-91D4-4207666C56E4@fmp.com>



Sent from the Dehut/Haisley iPad
email <household at fmp.com>

> On Mar 20, 2015, at 12:29 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> 
> Lindsay Haisley writes:
> 
>> As far as editing, top posting, bottom posting, etc. it's just a matter
>> of using good sense.
> 
> This list strongly prefers interlinear posting (posting
> below the relevant paragraph) if you reply to more than one point at a
> time.

Which generally makes the best sense of all, to me at least.  I do have one friend who finds this to be confusing, however.

I never quite understood all the fuss about top posting.  The reason behind quoting in the first place is to provide context for a reply, but some MUAs make it very difficult to not top post.

From barry at list.org  Fri Mar 20 14:58:10 2015
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:58:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com>
 <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <20150320095810.794e8877@limelight.wooz.org>

On Mar 20, 2015, at 09:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:

>I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.
>
>In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
>actually use do this.

I'm sure I'm proudly in the minority, but I use Claws Mail almost exclusively
and it has very good reply-to-list support.

Cheers,
-Barry

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 15:03:41 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 07:03:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <550C28BD.5090404@msapiro.net>

On 03/20/2015 06:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 3/19/2015 6:47 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
>> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
>> will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
>> from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
>> reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.
> 
> I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.


Actually, it doesn't work that way in any of the MUAs I know. But many
offer a Reply List choice if the message has a List-Post: header.
Thunderbird is one. Mutt offers an 'L' command to reply to the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Fri Mar 20 15:07:04 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:07:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20150320095810.794e8877@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <20150320095810.794e8877@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <550C2988.7090707@libertytrek.org>

On 3/20/2015 9:58 AM, Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:
> On Mar 20, 2015, at 09:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
>> I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.
>>
>> In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
>> actually use do this.
> 
> I'm sure I'm proudly in the minority, but I use Claws Mail almost exclusively
> and it has very good reply-to-list support.

Sounds like Thunderbird's 'Smart Reply' button, which I really like, but
don't use much because I can't place it on the regular toolbar, it is
only available to the message preview-pane toolbar, and I rarely use those.

From danil at smirnov.la  Fri Mar 20 15:08:20 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:08:20 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reject notice to non-member
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbq3aM5kSckX7VYurua1n9xNSee3dMP35nT+QM2Ecw00BQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello!

I've set
generic_nonmember_action to Hold
and
nonmember_rejection_notice to my reject notice.

But when I reject message from admindb page,
I get general message with not mine but standard reason:

---
The moderator gave the
following reason for rejecting your request:

"Your message was deemed inappropriate by the moderator."
---

Is this a bug?

I'm using Mailman 2.1.18-1

Thanks,
Danil Smirnov

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Fri Mar 20 15:09:10 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:09:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550C28BD.5090404@msapiro.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <550C28BD.5090404@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <550C2A06.7050207@libertytrek.org>

On 3/20/2015 10:03 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> On 03/20/2015 06:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> On 3/19/2015 6:47 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
>>> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
>>> will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
>>> from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
>>> reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.

>> I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.

> Actually, it doesn't work that way in any of the MUAs I know.

Which was my point... ;)

> But many offer a Reply List choice if the message has a List-Post:
> header. Thunderbird is one. Mutt offers an 'L' command to reply to
> the list.

Yep, use CTRL-SHIFT+L all the time on lists - but then get irritated
when someone CC's me individually, because it never fails that it is the
one sent directly that I end of trying to reply to, for which
Reply-To-List doesn't work, so I have to delete it and try again on the
duplicate from the list...

From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Mar 20 15:27:34 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:27:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <1426861654.64327.41.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 09:52 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
> > will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
> > from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
> > reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.
> 
> I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.
> 
> In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
> actually use do this.

My MUA of choice is Evolution, formerly from Ximian but now a gnome GPL
project.  It has this feature, as does Thunderbird, which is fairly
popular.  I was under the impression that Outlook and/or Outlook Express
had it too, but I'm not sure about this.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From marco at stoecker-family.de  Fri Mar 20 15:32:19 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 15:32:19 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 03/19/2015 11:55 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Yes, but if the post was sent twice to each list, the Received:
> headers of the two posts you received must differ in detail.

I copied the "View->Message Source" information in two text files and
compared them with diff, but no difference. What does this mean?

> 
> Anyway, look at the MTA log and see if there were two deliveries of
> the post to each Mailman list at around 22:17.

Thx Mark

Here is the logfile mail.info (I guess its written by postfix)

Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 6D42445B:
to=<listA at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.13/0/0.98,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 6D42445B:
to=<listB at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.19/0/0.93,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 6D42445B:
to=<listC at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.33/0/0.81,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 6D42445B:
to=<listD at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.11/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 6D42445B:
to=<listE at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.17/0/0.98,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)

... and a bit later

Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 4ACCAD07:
to=<listB at localhost>, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 4ACCAD07:
to=<listC at localhost>, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 4ACCAD07:
to=<listD at localhost>, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 4ACCAD07:
to=<listE at localhost>, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 4ACCAD07:
to=<listA at localhost>, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)

So what is it, a Postfix or a Mailman issue?

BR
Marco
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From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Mar 20 15:37:46 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:37:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550C2988.7090707@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
 <20150320095810.794e8877@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550C2988.7090707@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <1426862266.64327.44.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 10:07 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > I'm sure I'm proudly in the minority, but I use Claws Mail almost exclusively
> > and it has very good reply-to-list support.
> 
> Sounds like Thunderbird's 'Smart Reply' button, which I really like, but
> don't use much because I can't place it on the regular toolbar, it is
> only available to the message preview-pane toolbar, and I rarely use those.

I don't use T-bird much, but my version here (31.5.0 for Linux) presents
a "Reply List" button when a list post is highlighted in the index.
 
-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From ayma at tip.nl  Fri Mar 20 15:38:02 2015
From: ayma at tip.nl (A.K. Eyma)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 15:38:02 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subject Prefixing
In-Reply-To: <mailman.660.1426859540.10326.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.660.1426859540.10326.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <550C30CA.5050109@tip.nl>



Thanks, Richard and Mark, for responses.

Richard wrote:
>I suspect that it isn't that the list added the name after the
 >Re:, but that the MUA left it there and added the Re: first,
 >and the list saw that the tag was already in the message and
 >left it there. This keeps the subject tidy.

**I have a moderated list, so such occassions do not occur
(I would edit out any 'old' [listname] and whatever stacking
of prefixes that could happen). It is simply so that if you
post a subject line "re: topic", Mailman changes that to
"re: [listname] topic" (instead of just treating the "re:" as
part of the subject line / topic, .i.e. change it to
"[listname] re: topic" ). I now understand from Mark's
response that this is a host server setting beyond listowner
control, i.e. that the software d?es allow changing (just not
by listowners). The [Listname %d] is present in my case, but
I do not think it would be an improvement (just add confusion).
Ah well.

Off-topic: are there by chance people present who run a
Mailman list at Yale University? Who could drop me a note
offlist (it's about that horrid Targeted Attack Protection
system -- although perhaps it plagues lists at other
universities as well).

Aayko



From mneedham at hdfgroup.org  Fri Mar 20 15:05:52 2015
From: mneedham at hdfgroup.org (Matthew Needham)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:05:52 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <544C51A9-695B-440B-B677-5F11FF1B99DB@nuw.org.au>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
 <550BC50A.2030205@dodin.org>
 <9E3631BD-D3CD-4BB0-AF72-02D6DE071413@nuw.org.au>
 <550BCA1C.7020205@dodin.org>
 <544C51A9-695B-440B-B677-5F11FF1B99DB@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <510EB7AA-FA0E-467B-BA5B-22DB8D8E7225@hdfgroup.org>


> On Mar 20, 2015, at 03:23 AM, Peter Shute <pshute at nuw.org.au> wrote:
> 
> If you're referring to the problem of getting the selection boundaries in exactly the right spot, I'm well familiar with that. So easy to get them within one or two characters, but requires excessive concentration and effort to get them closer. Don't know why they don't add cursor keys to help with it.

NextApp Keyboard does have arrow keys, as well as a key to switch from cursor movement to selection movement and other useful things missing from most soft keyboards. It's not nearly as easy as with a real keyboard, but it does at least provide the functionality.


-- 

Matthew Needham
mneedham at hdfgroup.org
217-531-6110

The HDF Group
1800 South Oak Street, Suite 203
Champaign, IL 61820


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 15:46:48 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 07:46:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reject notice to non-member
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbq3aM5kSckX7VYurua1n9xNSee3dMP35nT+QM2Ecw00BQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbq3aM5kSckX7VYurua1n9xNSee3dMP35nT+QM2Ecw00BQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <550C32D8.50306@msapiro.net>

On 03/20/2015 07:08 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 
> I've set
> generic_nonmember_action to Hold
> and
> nonmember_rejection_notice to my reject notice.
> 
> But when I reject message from admindb page,
> I get general message with not mine but standard reason:
...
> Is this a bug?


You can consider that it's a bug if you wish and report it at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>, but it is the intentional
behavior. nonmember_rejection_notice is intended to be sent only with an
automatic rejection due to reject_these_nonmembers or
generic_nonmember_action = Reject. It is not intended to be the default
reason for a message rejected by a moderator.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Fri Mar 20 15:49:39 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:49:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1426861654.64327.41.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <1426861654.64327.41.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <550C3383.1080803@libertytrek.org>

On 3/20/2015 10:27 AM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
> My MUA of choice is Evolution, formerly from Ximian but now a gnome GPL
> project.  It has this feature, as does Thunderbird, which is fairly
> popular.  I was under the impression that Outlook and/or Outlook Express
> had it too, but I'm not sure about this.

Ummm... this is not what you said initially.

You said "In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button
the program will analyze the headers, determine that the post being
replied to came from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option..."

The 'Reply-To-List' button in Thunderbird is a completely separate
button. Also, when you click the normal 'Reply' button, it simply
replies, it doesn't 'analyze any headers' or present you with any other
options or choices... same for every other MUA I know of.

So, it sounds like you just sortof misspoke... ;)

Admittedly - the 'Smart Reply' button in Thunderbird *does* actually
actively change behavior depending on whether or not the message has
list headers (and also whether or not there are multiple recipients),
but as I said, I don't get to use it much since I can't put it on the
main toolbar (I do have a bug open for this)...

From danil at smirnov.la  Fri Mar 20 15:55:04 2015
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:55:04 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reject notice to non-member
In-Reply-To: <550C32D8.50306@msapiro.net>
References: <CAMrrXbq3aM5kSckX7VYurua1n9xNSee3dMP35nT+QM2Ecw00BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <550C32D8.50306@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbreV7xZS2weiRTpwVg9pYR8oJDiWQ-gaEwsYSJ=PjyYfQ@mail.gmail.com>

2015-03-20 16:46 GMT+02:00 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> You can consider that it's a bug if you wish and report it at
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>, but it is the intentional
> behavior.

Okay I see Mark. But there is no any other way to include reason of
rejecting to notice.

Probably it would be better to add feature request to add filed for
custom rejecting reason
on Admindb page than consider this as a bug?...

Danil

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 15:55:41 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 07:55:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net>

On 03/20/2015 07:32 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> On 03/19/2015 11:55 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> Yes, but if the post was sent twice to each list, the Received:
>> headers of the two posts you received must differ in detail.
> 
> I copied the "View->Message Source" information in two text files and
> compared them with diff, but no difference. What does this mean?


This is very difficult to understand. At the very least, Postfix's
Received: headers should include time stamps and queue IDs which would
be different for the two messages.


> Here is the logfile mail.info (I guess its written by postfix)
> 
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 6D42445B:
> to=<listA at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.13/0/0.98,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
...
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=<listA at localhost>, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
> 
> So what is it, a Postfix or a Mailman issue?


It is somewhere between your mail client and Postfix on the Mailman
server. It's not Mailman. Are you certain you didn't just send the
message twice?

What are the rest of the postfix log messages from 'grep 6D42445B' and
'grep 4ACCAD07' of the log file?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Mar 20 16:09:03 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:09:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550C3383.1080803@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <1426861654.64327.41.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C3383.1080803@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <1426864143.64327.57.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 10:49 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> Ummm... this is not what you said initially.
> 
> You said "In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button
> the program will analyze the headers, determine that the post being
> replied to came from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option..."

This is the way Evolution works.
> 
> The 'Reply-To-List' button in Thunderbird is a completely separate
> button. Also, when you click the normal 'Reply' button, it simply
> replies, it doesn't 'analyze any headers' or present you with any
> other
> options or choices... same for every other MUA I know of.
> 

In T-bird there's a pane with message headers and action buttons below
the index and above the preview pane.  If a list message is highlighted
in the index, there's a "Reply List" button presented right next to the
"Reply" button.  If a post isn't a list post, this button is absent.
This is even simpler than what Evolution does.

If T-bird and Evolution are NOT looking at headers and offering an
appropriate list reply option, then how are they determining when to
display this button, and when not to?

I think is the "out of the box" behavior of T-bird for Linux, but I may
be misspoken on this ;)

> So, it sounds like you just sortof misspoke... ;)

Only superficially.  The point is that both of these MUAs are list-aware
and offer options appropriately.

> I don't get to use it much since I can't put it on the
> main toolbar (I do have a bug open for this)...
> 
I don't use T-bird much at all, except as a MUA to distribute FMP's
monthly invoices and statements, and it has issues which make it
problematic for this purpose unless one is careful.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From marco at stoecker-family.de  Fri Mar 20 16:42:46 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:42:46 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> It is somewhere between your mail client and Postfix on the
> Mailman server. It's not Mailman. Are you certain you didn't just
> send the message twice?

I'm very sure because in the outbox it appears only ones. And I copied
the headers again, just to make sure I do not made a mistake the first
time. But again no difference with commandline comannd 'diff'. That is
very curious :-(

> 
> What are the rest of the postfix log messages from 'grep 6D42445B'
> and 'grep 4ACCAD07' of the log file?

and here it comes...

for grep 6D42445B:

Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 6D42445B:
client=localhost[::1]
Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/cleanup[9818]: 6D42445B:
message-id=<5509EB1C.8050605 at stoecker-family.de>
Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B:
from=<marco at stoecker-family.de>, size=6653, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 6D42445B:
to=<listA at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.13/0/0.98,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 6D42445B:
to=<listB at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.19/0/0.93,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 6D42445B:
to=<listC at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.33/0/0.81,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 6D42445B:
to=<listD at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.11/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 6D42445B:
to=<listE at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.17/0/0.98,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B: removed

and for grep 4ACCAD07:

Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 4ACCAD07:
client=localhost[::1]
Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/cleanup[9818]: 4ACCAD07:
message-id=<5509EB1C.8050605 at stoecker-family.de>
Mar 18 22:16:48 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 4ACCAD07:
from=<marco at stoecker-family.de>, size=6652, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 4ACCAD07:
to=<listB at localhost>, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 4ACCAD07:
to=<listC at localhost>, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 4ACCAD07:
to=<listD at localhost>, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 4ACCAD07:
to=<listE at localhost>, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 4ACCAD07:
to=<listA at localhost>, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 4ACCAD07: removed

BR
Marco
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From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 17:12:28 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:12:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net>

On 03/20/2015 08:42 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:

> 
>> What are the rest of the postfix log messages from 'grep 6D42445B'
>> and 'grep 4ACCAD07' of the log file?
> 
> and here it comes...
> 
> for grep 6D42445B:
> 
> Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 6D42445B:
> client=localhost[::1]
> Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/cleanup[9818]: 6D42445B:
> message-id=<5509EB1C.8050605 at stoecker-family.de>


OK. This message was received from something on localhost (IPv6 [::1] at
22:16:43 and delivered to all the Mailman list recipients.


> Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B:
> from=<marco at stoecker-family.de>, size=6653, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 6D42445B:
> to=<listA at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.13/0/0.98,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 6D42445B:
> to=<listB at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.19/0/0.93,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 6D42445B:
> to=<listC at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.33/0/0.81,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 6D42445B:
> to=<listD at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.11/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 6D42445B:
> to=<listE at localhost>, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.17/0/0.98,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B: removed
> 
> and for grep 4ACCAD07:
> 
> Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 4ACCAD07:
> client=localhost[::1]
> Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/cleanup[9818]: 4ACCAD07:
> message-id=<5509EB1C.8050605 at stoecker-family.de>


And then 3 seconds later something on the same host delivered a second
copy to Postfix which delivered that to the lists also.


> Mar 18 22:16:48 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 4ACCAD07:
> from=<marco at stoecker-family.de>, size=6652, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=<listB at localhost>, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=<listC at localhost>, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=<listD at localhost>, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=<listE at localhost>, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=<listA at localhost>, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 4ACCAD07: removed


So this duplication occurred before Mailman and even before Postfix
delivering to Mailman. It could be anything. You could try grepping the
log for the Message-ID and see if that gives a clue.

Look for an original arrival being passed to some process that returns
two copies.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 20 17:12:58 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:12:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reject notice to non-member
In-Reply-To: <CAMrrXbreV7xZS2weiRTpwVg9pYR8oJDiWQ-gaEwsYSJ=PjyYfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMrrXbq3aM5kSckX7VYurua1n9xNSee3dMP35nT+QM2Ecw00BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <550C32D8.50306@msapiro.net>
 <CAMrrXbreV7xZS2weiRTpwVg9pYR8oJDiWQ-gaEwsYSJ=PjyYfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <550C470A.4040109@msapiro.net>

On 03/20/2015 07:55 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 
> Probably it would be better to add feature request to add filed for
> custom rejecting reason
> on Admindb page than consider this as a bug?...


If you go to the detail of a message in the admindb interface (click the
[n] link or the 'view all messages from ...' link in the summary view),
you can put in any reject reason you like in the 'If you reject this
post, please explain (optional):' box.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Fri Mar 20 17:29:16 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 17:29:16 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 03/20/2015 05:12 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 03/20/2015 08:42 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 6D42445B: 
>> client=localhost[::1] Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname
>> postfix/cleanup[9818]: 6D42445B: 
>> message-id=<5509EB1C.8050605 at stoecker-family.de>
> 
> 
> OK. This message was received from something on localhost (IPv6
> [::1] at 22:16:43 and delivered to all the Mailman list
> recipients.
> 
> 

[snipped]

>> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B: removed
>> 
>> and for grep 4ACCAD07:
>> 
>> Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 4ACCAD07: 
>> client=localhost[::1] Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname
>> postfix/cleanup[9818]: 4ACCAD07: 
>> message-id=<5509EB1C.8050605 at stoecker-family.de>
> 
> 
> And then 3 seconds later something on the same host delivered a
> second copy to Postfix which delivered that to the lists also.

[snipped]

> 
> So this duplication occurred before Mailman and even before
> Postfix delivering to Mailman. It could be anything. You could try
> grepping the log for the Message-ID and see if that gives a clue.
> 
> Look for an original arrival being passed to some process that
> returns two copies.

I also use clamav-milter and spamassassin-milter together with
postfix, maybe ones of these is the root cause. Thx for your detailed
help. I think for Mailman this is solved, cause it has nothing to do
with it.

BR
Marco
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From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Fri Mar 20 19:37:32 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:37:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1426864143.64327.57.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <1426861654.64327.41.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C3383.1080803@libertytrek.org> <1426864143.64327.57.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <550C68EC.8000309@libertytrek.org>

On 3/20/2015 11:09 AM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 10:49 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> You said "In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button
>> the program will analyze the headers, determine that the post being
>> replied to came from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option..."

> This is the way Evolution works.

Ok, but my point is, one MUA with a tiny user base is very far from
'many mail user agents'. So, again - looks like you mis-spoke. Not a
crime, I do it sometimes, but it is annoying when someone argues nits
just to avoid simply acknowledging a mistake.

> In T-bird there's a pane with message headers and action buttons below
> the index and above the preview pane.  If a list message is highlighted
> in the index, there's a "Reply List" button presented right next to the
> "Reply" button.  If a post isn't a list post, this button is absent.
> This is even simpler than what Evolution does.

The Reply List button is only there if you put it there, unless recent
updates have started putting it there by default (it never was before).

> If T-bird and Evolution are NOT looking at headers and offering an
> appropriate list reply option, then how are they determining when to
> display this button, and when not to?

Again, my point is this doesn't happen *when you click the REPLY button*
- you said (not implied, not hinted, you said it outright) that clicking
'the Reply button' (only the 'normal' Reply button can be inferred in
this context) initiated some kind of testing of the headers to try to
guess what kind of Reply would be most appropriate.

Are you saying that this is indeed what Evolution does? It only has one
'Reply' button  that is similar to Thunderbird 'Smart Reply' button?

> Only superficially.  The point is that both of these MUAs are list-aware
> and offer options appropriately.

No, the point is you apparently can't simply acknowledge that you
mis-spoke/made a mistake.

And in Thunderbird, nothing is 'offered' unless you take some kind of
affirmative action (like adding the 'Reply List' button to the toolbar
and understanding how it works), then, the only thing that happens is
the Reply List button is either available or not, depending on the List
headers (and it doesn't work with all lists either)...

From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Mar 20 19:48:19 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 13:48:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550C68EC.8000309@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <1426861654.64327.41.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C3383.1080803@libertytrek.org>
 <1426864143.64327.57.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C68EC.8000309@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <1426877299.66794.2.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 14:37 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > Only superficially.  The point is that both of these MUAs are
> list-aware
> > and offer options appropriately.
> 
> No, the point is you apparently can't simply acknowledge that you
> mis-spoke/made a mistake.

Tanstaafl, it it will make you happy, I _officially_ acknowledge that I
made a mistake/mis-spoke, and I apologize to you, and to anyone else who
was confused or annoyed by what I said!

I still think you pretty much missed my point.

Can we move on now?
> 
-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sat Mar 21 01:38:22 2015
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 20:38:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <550CBD7E.4030903@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/20/15 9:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 3/19/2015 6:47 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
>> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
>> will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
>> from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
>> reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.
> I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.
>
> In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
> actually use do this.
>
Thunderbird isn't quite like that, but when I reply to a message from 
the list I am given 3 options:

Reply
Reply All
Reply to List

The Reply to List option is made available by the List-Post header I 
believe.

-- 
Richard Damon


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 21 05:17:49 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:17:49 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550BC50A.2030205@dodin.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net> <550BC50A.2030205@dodin.org>
Message-ID: <87d243oufm.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

jdd writes:
 > Le 20/03/2015 01:45, Mark Sapiro a ?crit :
 > 
 > > This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching
 > > the surface.
 > >
 > smartphones makes things horrible, on android, selecting text for 
 > deletion is nearly impossible :-((

This is true.

On many lists I frequent, people have changed their .sig in their
smartphone to "Sent from my <smartphone>, very sorry about the rude
quoting." :-)  But the people I respect (eg, Guido van Rossum) often
write the apology explicitly in a large minority of their smartphone
posts when they fail to trim.

OTOH, I ditched AppleMail for the Gmail app very quickly.  That makes
it very easy to nuke the quotes (just delete the ellipsis).  I write
one sentence to summarize the point I'm replying to and then what I
have to say.  (I don't do list mail from my smartphone much, though.)

I think the best solution for most replies (unless you're in Guido's
position of leadership) is to bite the bullet and wait until you're at
a terminal to post.

Steve


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 21 05:35:52 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:35:52 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] CC pruning: does it work?
In-Reply-To: <550C0B95.6080504@msapiro.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <5C90299D-8CAF-460C-8852-E524C6F35E79@supercoders.com.au>
 <87a8z8qlbh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <550C0B95.6080504@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87bnjnotlj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > There is one case with Mailman lists where [to vs. cc] matters, at
 > least in MM 2.1, but I think MM 3 too.
 > 
 > If a list member has 'avoid dups' set and that member is a Cc: addressee
 > of a post, that member will not receive the post from the list AND that
 > member's address will be removed from the Cc: list of the post delivered
 > to the other list members.
 > 
 > The removal is to prevent Cc: lists from growing too large in threads
 > with many participants.

Does this actually work?  In practice, I get the feeling that a large
minority at least unsets "nodupes".  XEmacs lists default to nodupes,
but about 1/3 of users have them unset, and a quick eyeball suggests
that over 95% of the ones with nodupes set have never posted or been
cc'd on the list.

I would say that the effect that such members get many fewer automatic
CCs from reply-all would be the main reason for the removal.  Even if
it doesn't work this is the right thing to do.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 21 05:39:00 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:39:00 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1E0AA0FD-FBD5-40F8-91D4-4207666C56E4@fmp.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com>
 <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <87d244qlsd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <1E0AA0FD-FBD5-40F8-91D4-4207666C56E4@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87a8z7otgb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > I never quite understood all the fuss about top posting.

Usenet over UUCP via 300 baud modems on backbone servers with 5MB
disks.[1]

 > The reason behind quoting in the first place is to provide context
 > for a reply, but some MUAs make it very difficult to not top post.

Friends don't let friends.... <wink />

Footnotes: 
[1]  I think I'm exaggerating here, but not by more than two orders of
magnitude.  It really did matter then.




From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 21 05:55:41 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:55:41 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550CBD7E.4030903@Damon-Family.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com>
 <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
 <550CBD7E.4030903@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <878uerosoi.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Richard Damon writes:

 > Thunderbird isn't quite like that, but when I reply to a message from 
 > the list I am given 3 options:
 > 
 > Reply
 > Reply All
 > Reply to List
 > 
 > The Reply to List option is made available by the List-Post header I 
 > believe.

I don't understand why they do it this way.  If I were writing an MUA,
I'd make each addressee a button which replies to them only.[1]  For the
explicit reply button, I'd automatically put the list-post and author
in To:, provide an obvious delete button on each (as Gmail does), and
provide an "add other addressees" button in Cc:.

As it happens, on XEmacs lists about half the people who are most
likely to end up in "reply-all" cc lists *want* to be cc'd because
their filters put general list traffic in a folder they read much less
frequently, but replies to their own posts they want to read
immediately, so I've never coded it.

It's a very difficult UI/UX problem, I think.


Footnotes: 
[1]  The alternative use for active regions over an addressee would be
to provide contact list information, but I would do that in a tooltip.


From brad at fineby.me.uk  Sat Mar 21 07:48:04 2015
From: brad at fineby.me.uk (Brad Rogers)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 06:48:04 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] CC pruning: does it work?
In-Reply-To: <87bnjnotlj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <5C90299D-8CAF-460C-8852-E524C6F35E79@supercoders.com.au>
 <87a8z8qlbh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <550C0B95.6080504@msapiro.net>
 <87bnjnotlj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20150321064804.0c3dd467@abydos.stargate.org.uk>

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:35:52 +0900
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

Hello Stephen,

>Does this actually work?  In practice, I get the feeling that a large
>minority at least unsets "nodupes".  XEmacs lists default to nodupes,

I always turn NoDupes off.  The reason being that I *want* the list
copy, but *not* the personal copy of the email(1).  IOW, the complete
opposite of what NoDupes does.  Obviously, there is no way that MailMan
can achieve this.

(1) The personal copy often fails to get filtered to the relevant folder
because of missing headers, change in Subject line, etc.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
People stare like they've seen a ghost
Titanic (My Over) Reaction - 999
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From brad at fineby.me.uk  Sat Mar 21 07:56:15 2015
From: brad at fineby.me.uk (Brad Rogers)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 06:56:15 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com>
 <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <20150321065615.6c905ad3@abydos.stargate.org.uk>

On Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:52:19 -0400
Tanstaafl <tanstaafl at libertytrek.org> wrote:

Hello Tanstaafl,

>On 3/19/2015 6:47 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
>> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the
>> program will analyze the headers, determine that the post being
>> replied to came from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in
>> addition to a simple reply, which generally goes privately to the
>> original poster.  
>I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.

Claws-Mail has the option(1) to "reply to list" when the relevant headers
are present.  Also, mailing list folders can be set up so spurious To's
and Cc's are avoided.

(1)  Can be (un)set by the user.  Most set it to on because, well, why
wouldn't you?

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Bet you think you're king but you're really a pawn
When You're Young - The Jam
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From brad at fineby.me.uk  Sat Mar 21 07:52:48 2015
From: brad at fineby.me.uk (Brad Rogers)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 06:52:48 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <87a8z7otgb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com>
 <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <87d244qlsd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <1E0AA0FD-FBD5-40F8-91D4-4207666C56E4@fmp.com>
 <87a8z7otgb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20150321065248.5909525b@abydos.stargate.org.uk>

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:39:00 +0900
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

Hello Stephen,

>Usenet over UUCP via 300 baud modems on backbone servers with 5MB
>disks.[1]

Same went for FTNs, etc.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
I'd hate to look into those eyes and see an ounce of pain
Sweet Child O'Mine - Guns 'N' Roses
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From jbn at forestfield.org  Sat Mar 21 04:39:47 2015
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 22:39:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>

Barry Warsaw wrote:
> I've always found it proper and useful to include the quoted material
> of the original message, but trim the quotes to just the bit you are
> responding to. I'd call this interleaved-with-trimming.
>
> Top posting has always been a serious breach of netiquette.

I concur and I still consider this to be true on the grounds of 
legibility. I find it far more clear to read point followed by rebuttal 
instead of reading rebuttals followed by having to figure out which 
points were being rebutted.

I think users who prefer top-posting are mostly giving into their MUA's 
defaults. I don't think most users face MUA inability to edit quoted 
material. I find the users are also unwilling to put more time into 
editing, so they don't and now so many don't it is expected that 
Microsoft Outlook users (for example) will top-post.

Every modern (typically GUI) MUA I know of has a search feature, so I 
don't buy the notion that it's hard to sift through old emails. I do 
understand that it's hard to read poorly-reformatted quotes of old 
emails (a problem I see with top-posting replies) and I wouldn't trust 
quotes without going back to my copy of that email or a mailing list 
archive (if I don't have a copy of that post) to verify the quote.

I think modern MUAs in widespread use (with the exception of Thunderbird 
and its derivatives) don't do proper threading. Therefore many email 
users don't know what threading is from experience. Maybe some MUA will 
do threading and become popular and users will think threading is a new 
feature.

I also think it's right and proper to expect to pick up replies to 
mailing list posts on the list by default. I don't like having to 
include a header that tries to convey this desire to MUAs and I don't 
want another copy of any response sent to me in addition to a copy on 
the list. Unfortunately I don't know how to get Thunderbird to include 
the header on every mailing list reply without me having to tell it 
which addresses are mailing lists. I have a way I'd prefer Thunderbird 
to handle this but that would be off-topic for this discussion and 
mailing list.

From fmouse at fmp.com  Sat Mar 21 17:35:28 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:35:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <1426955728.125053.8.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 22:39 -0500, J.B. Nicholson-Owens wrote:
> I think users who prefer top-posting are mostly giving into their MUA's 
> defaults. I don't think most users face MUA inability to edit quoted 
> material. I find the users are also unwilling to put more time into 
> editing, so they don't and now so many don't it is expected that 
> Microsoft Outlook users (for example) will top-post. 

I don't think a lot of designers of MUAs are willing to put more time
into designing software that really meets the standards set by best
practices for email in general, much less the requirements of list
posting.

I find it quite distasteful to try to work around stupid software
design.  I'd far rather deal with software with predictable bugs than
with software that treats me like an idiot, which is why I stick with
Evolution for Linux.

Apple is the worst!  Mac Mail is bad, and mail clients for iOS - iPhones
and iPads - are worse.

So people are going to have to forgive me (or not) if I sometimes
violate the rules of good netiquette.  I cut other people a lot of slack
in this regard.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From al-black at telus.net  Sat Mar 21 22:53:18 2015
From: al-black at telus.net (Al Black)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 15:53:18 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>


On 2015-03-20, at 9:39 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens wrote:

> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> I've always found it proper and useful to include the quoted material
>> of the original message, but trim the quotes to just the bit you are
>> responding to. I'd call this interleaved-with-trimming.
>> 
>> Top posting has always been a serious breach of netiquette.
> 
> I concur and I still consider this to be true on the grounds of legibility. I find it far more clear to read point followed by rebuttal instead of reading rebuttals followed by having to figure out which points were being rebutted.

Further to the point, between top posting and lack of editing, the digest format of list posts are essentially unreadable.  Moreover, on more extended threads, entire digests can consist of a single post depending on how you set your size limits.

Although the ideal solution is obviously users changing their behaviour and or MUAs, I've wondered whether an "auto-trim" function within mailman would make sense (for digest users...)  

Its been a thought provoking discussion btw, thanks to all.

al

From rb211 at tds.net  Sun Mar 22 01:52:43 2015
From: rb211 at tds.net (William Bagwell)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 20:52:43 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
Message-ID: <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net>

On Saturday 21 March 2015, Al Black wrote:
> Although the ideal solution is obviously users changing their behaviour
> and or MUAs, I've wondered whether an "auto-trim" function within mailman
> would make sense (for digest users...) ?

Yes! For every one, not just digest users. And it should default to removing 
all but one single level of quoted text (regardless of top or bottom 
posting) and be *user* setable to none removed or all quoted text removed. 

Should also remove all quoted list banners and this should not be an easily 
changeable setting. Make them edit the source if they want to see seven list 
banners;-)

BTW, in my older version of KMail left clicking and *releasing* the 'Reply' 
button uses the default 'Reply' option. Left clicking and *holding* opens a 
dialog box with the following four options,
Reply
Reply to Author 
Reply to All
Reply to Mailing-List
-- 
William

From larry at qhpress.org  Sun Mar 22 03:08:28 2015
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 22:08:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net>
Message-ID: <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>

On 3/21/2015 8:52 PM, William Bagwell wrote:
> On Saturday 21 March 2015, Al Black wrote:
>> Although the ideal solution is obviously users changing their behaviour
>> and or MUAs, I've wondered whether an "auto-trim" function within mailman
>> would make sense (for digest users...)
>
> Yes! For every one, not just digest users. And it should default to removing
> all but one single level of quoted text (regardless of top or bottom
> posting) and be *user* setable to none removed or all quoted text removed.

Settable by which user?  The sender or the recipient?

And wouldn't a default of removing all but one level of quoted text make 
nonsense of some posts?  E.g. in the passage above, one needs the inner 
quotation to know what the outer quotation refers to.

It seems to me correct editing of quotation sequences requires human 
thought, not just mechanical text manipulation.  Even though some people 
expect their computers to think for them.

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Sun Mar 22 04:08:09 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 14:08:09 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>

> On 22 Mar 2015, at 1:28 pm, Larry Kuenning <larry at qhpress.org> wrote:
> 
> It seems to me correct editing of quotation sequences requires human 
> thought, not just mechanical text manipulation.  Even though some people 
> expect their computers to think for them.

I'd be happier if more clients at least allowed the option of using > to indicate quoting level, so it would be possible to edit them into a suitable format. And if html wasn't the default for so many clients.

When I try to manipulate an email full of quotes that are indicated by various methods including vertical lines down the left side and different coloured text, in an html editor that doesn't work properly, and which turns it all to mush if I convert to plain text because of line wrapping problems, it's easy to become discouraged.

Peter Shute

From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Mar 22 04:27:05 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 22:27:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Sun, 2015-03-22 at 14:08 +1100, Peter Shute wrote:
> > On 22 Mar 2015, at 1:28 pm, Larry Kuenning <larry at qhpress.org> wrote:
> > 
> > It seems to me correct editing of quotation sequences requires human 
> > thought, not just mechanical text manipulation.  Even though some people 
> > expect their computers to think for them.
> 
> I'd be happier if more clients at least allowed the option of using >
> to indicate quoting level, so it would be possible to edit them into a
> suitable format.

For Linux users, Evolution has very intelligent handling of quotes.  Not
only are quotes indicated with ">" characters but reformatting a quoted
paragraph preserves these in the right places.  Copy and paste has a
"Paste as quote" option which is very handy for consolidating quotes
from several emails.

> And if html wasn't the default for so many clients.

Don't get me started!  To the best of my knowledge, there is no unified
standard for HTML-ized email.  Microsoft has "Rich Text", Apple has
another standard.  Digests can get mucked up beyond usability if people
use HTML email and it's included in digests.  Hopefully all HTMLized
posts to a digested list are multipart/mixed with both a text/plain and
a text/html part so the HTML can be nuked before its digested and/or
sent out to subscribers.  If not, all bets are off, but such emails are
usually spam.

Nonetheless, IMHO HTMLized email the way of the future so we'd better
get used to dealing with it.

> When I try to manipulate an email full of quotes that are indicated by
> various methods including vertical lines down the left side and
> different coloured text, in an html editor that doesn't work properly,
> and which turns it all to mush if I convert to plain text because of
> line wrapping problems, it's easy to become discouraged.
> 
Amen!
> 
-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From jra at baylink.com  Sun Mar 22 04:40:07 2015
From: jra at baylink.com (Jay Ashworth)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 23:40:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <2643498.22.1426995607562.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lindsay Haisley" <fmouse at fmp.com>

> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
> will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
> from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
> reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.

{{citation-needed}}

Thunderbird, Mutt, Zimbra, Outlook and Outlook Express (and descendents)
all don't do that.  What are "many MUAs"?

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       jra at baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates       http://www.bcp38.info          2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA      BCP38: Ask For It By Name!           +1 727 647 1274

From jra at baylink.com  Sun Mar 22 04:38:11 2015
From: jra at baylink.com (Jay Ashworth)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 23:38:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <12158432.20.1426995491505.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry Warsaw" <barry at list.org>

> On Mar 20, 2015, at 08:19 AM, Andrew Stuart wrote:
> >When I reply to a message on a mailing list, what is the ?right? way
> >to do it?
> >Should I be deleting previous thread text from my response?
> >Should I be adding anything in?
> 
> Of course, Wikipedia is the font of all human knowledge and truth:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post
> 
> This is an interesting question for me because I think the netiquette
> rules
> I've been using for decades may be changing.
> 
> I've always found it proper and useful to include the quoted material
> of the
> original message, but trim the quotes to just the bit you are
> responding to.
> I'd call this interleaved-with-trimming.

The traditional method for technical conversation mailing lists.

> Top posting has always been a serious breach of netiquette.
> 
> What I've found interesting is that some of my correspondents (off-list)
> actually *want* top posting, and find anything else confusing. I think I
> understand why in at least some cases; Apple Mail top posts by default, and
> some folks just don't like to go digging around in the email to find the
> answer they're looking for. I've actually tried to accommodate that when
> sending email to them.

If the question has a 1 paragraph or less reply and won't engender a thread, 
then I can just barely tolerate top posting.

If the person replying is on a mobile MUA, where it's a bitch to deal with,
I'll tolerate it.

Otherwise, I will take the time to clean up their reply, and hope that they
catch on.

As for actually convincing the MUA to reply the right place, a shocking 
number don't understand RFC... 5369 headers, and the ones that don't rarely
have "Reply to Recipient", which is a decent heuristic for most mailing lists.

So you have to reply all, and then the recipient gets the personal copy first, 
and replies to it off-list, and that way lies madness and sweaty palms...

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       jra at baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates       http://www.bcp38.info          2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA      BCP38: Ask For It By Name!           +1 727 647 1274

From rb211 at tds.net  Sun Mar 22 11:09:57 2015
From: rb211 at tds.net (William Bagwell)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 06:09:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <201503220609.57495.rb211@tds.net>

On Saturday 21 March 2015, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> Settable by which user? ?The sender or the recipient?

Recipient of course, sender has no way of knowing what the recipient prefers.

> And wouldn't a default of removing all but one level of quoted text make
> nonsense of some posts? ?E.g. in the passage above, one needs the inner
> quotation to know what the outer quotation refers to.

Not for us. Someone joining the conversation mid stream might but that is 
what archives are for.

> It seems to me correct editing of quotation sequences requires human
> thought, not just mechanical text manipulation. ?Even though some people
> expect their computers to think for them.

I'm sure there would be occasionally maglings when some one starts a sentence 
with with an alternate quote character. Lindsay Haisley raises the valid 
point that HTML mail would be most difficult to include in such a filter.

Oh well, I can dream...
-- 
William

From bernd at petrovitsch.priv.at  Sun Mar 22 14:33:07 2015
From: bernd at petrovitsch.priv.at (Bernd Petrovitsch)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 14:33:07 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1427031188.20946.51.camel@thorin>

On Don, 2015-03-19 at 17:45 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
[...]

also +1 for the "quote only relevant and answer inline directly below
it" style - an email is written once and read (hopefully;-) more often
so it is actually extremely unfriendly (because time killing) to all
others to make a mail not as simple and easy readable as possible to
save everybody's time (otherwise people might not even read the mail
past line 2 and after a few of this mails, one might remember the
"\seen" - if not worse - flag in the sieve script).

> And some people on the list continue to insist that they like top
> posting with full quoting because they only have to read the latest post
> in a thread (albeit from the bottom up), even though it's been pointed

They seem to read only a few mails a day and the contents must be quite
simple.
Otherwise one - at least me - really needs to know the context and which
aspect of the quoted/original mail is actually meant/answered.

> out to them multiple times that threads are trees and even if everyone
> quotes everything, any particular leaf only contains the posts on that
> branch.
> 
> Top posting with full quoting is also encouraged by MUAs like Gmail's
> web client that hide the quoted material unless you ask for it.

The various Outlooks have the same design fault - especially as it's the
default behaviour.

> I do understand that in some business situations (contract negotiations,
> attorney/client communication and the like), it is useful and pretty
> much demanded that each message contain the full transcript of what went
> before, but this has no place on an email discussion list.

Well, I store such possibly important mails (ans MLs usually have
archives somewhere) so full-quoting everything on every mail is pretty
pointless (and in some "commercial" situations one would archive every
mail automatically anyways ...).

And most people make no difference on the situations and/or
circumstances (like in "I always sent mail in this way so it must be
correct!").

In lots of proprietary/hidden "environments" people actually do not
think about the information flow and solve lots of problems (not all!)
with MLs but just sent mail to (presumed) involved people.
And if a new one is included, one - or more all of them - have the
excuse to have always full-quoted/top-posted everything.
The real fun starts if such mails leave the company and the outside gets
knowledge on who is really involved on the other side and factual
internal details ....

Kind regards,
	Bernd
-- 
"I dislike type abstraction if it has no real reason. And saving
on typing is not a good reason - if your typing speed is the main
issue when you're coding, you're doing something seriously wrong."
    - Linus Torvalds


From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Mar 22 16:20:41 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 10:20:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <2643498.22.1426995607562.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
References: <2643498.22.1426995607562.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com>
Message-ID: <C13C8412-27BA-4598-8454-B785BF3E1269@fmp.com>


> On Mar 21, 2015, at 10:40 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lindsay Haisley" <fmouse at fmp.com>
> 
>> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
>> will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
>> from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
>> reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.
> 
> {{citation-needed}}
> 
> Thunderbird, Mutt, Zimbra, Outlook and Outlook Express (and descendents)
> all don't do that.  What are "many MUAs"?

T-bird _does_ do this, although it doesn't work exactly as I described.  the header/button pane between the index pane and the preview pane contains a "Reply List" button if a list post is is highlighted in the index, otherwise said button is absent.  Someone in this discussion said that this isn't default behavior in T-bird, but I can't speak to this.  The point is that T-bird is list-aware and can offer reply choices accordingly.  So can Evolution, which was the default Gnome MUA until a few years ago.   Barry Warsaw told us that Claws Mail has excellent reply-to-list support, and Mark Sapiro said that Mutt offers an "L" command to reply to a list.

Whether (count them!) four MUAs constitute "many MUAs", and whether I'm culpable for a misrepresentation of the facts is a matter of opinion.  I already ate a large serving of crow in response to Tanstaafl's taking me to task on the same matter.  At the moment I'm not hungry.

The point is that programming list-awareness into an MUA isn't rocket science, and the fact that it's not done in many of them is more a matter of UI designers and their buddies in marketing departments deciding to "simplify" (i.e. dumb down) their MUA products to enhance user experience and avoid confusing and possibly educating their user/customer base.

Sent from the Dehut/Haisley iPad
email <household at fmp.com>



From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sun Mar 22 16:32:51 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:32:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550CBD7E.4030903@Damon-Family.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <550CBD7E.4030903@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <550EE0A3.9080408@libertytrek.org>

On 3/20/2015 8:38 PM, Richard Damon <Richard at Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> Thunderbird isn't quite like that, but when I reply to a message from 
> the list I am given 3 options:
> 
> Reply
> Reply All
> Reply to List

Do you mean that you see a single button with a drop-down that provides
these three choices?

If so, then you are using the 'Smart Reply' button that I described
earlier, that

a) is only available on the preview pane header toolbar, and

b) has to be manually placed there (unless it is now placed there by
default automatically, which it wasn't when it was first introduced).


From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sun Mar 22 16:47:47 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:47:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <878uerosoi.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <550CBD7E.4030903@Damon-Family.org>
 <878uerosoi.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <550EE423.3090602@libertytrek.org>

On 3/21/2015 12:55 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> If I were writing an MUA, I'd make each addressee a button which
> replies to them only.[1] For the explicit reply button, I'd
> automatically put the list-post and author in To:, provide an obvious
> delete button on each (as Gmail does), and provide an "add other
> addressees" button in Cc:.

Way too complicated for me...

I like the 'Smart Reply' button in Thunderbird (just wish I could put it
on the main toolbar), but I'd make its behavior configurable:

a) Allow the user to set a global default (ie, if List headers are
present, set default to 'Reply To List'), then make this over-ridable
somehow on a sender basis (ie, for certain lists, you could change the
default to the normal 'Reply' (to sender only)), or

b) allow the user to have it automatically show all relevant reply
options simultaneously (ie, side by side, without a drop-down selector),
ie: If List headers are available, show 'Reply' and 'Reply To List'
buttons, if List headers are available and there are multiple
recipients, show all three ('Reply', 'Reply All', and 'Reply To List')

Getting the config options and UI right for this would take a little
thought, but I think it would be doable...

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Sun Mar 22 16:52:11 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:52:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1426877299.66794.2.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <1426861654.64327.41.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C3383.1080803@libertytrek.org> <1426864143.64327.57.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C68EC.8000309@libertytrek.org> <1426877299.66794.2.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <550EE52B.60909@libertytrek.org>

On 3/20/2015 2:48 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 14:37 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> No, the point is you apparently can't simply acknowledge that you
>> mis-spoke/made a mistake.
> 
> Tanstaafl, it it will make you happy, I _officially_ acknowledge that I
> made a mistake/mis-spoke, and I apologize to you, and to anyone else who
> was confused or annoyed by what I said!
> 
> I still think you pretty much missed my point.
> 
> Can we move on now?

We could have moved on 3 posts ago had you simply said 'oops, yeah, I
misspoke, here's what I meant', instead of trying to justify it somehow.

I even included a winkie in my first comment pointing out you probably
mis-spoke - which, when combined with the rest of the content of my
posts, shows conclusively that I did indeed 'get your point'.

And now you compound the problem by making a grand-standing apology
obviously meant tongue-in-cheek, in that you don't really mean it, but
instead are trying to deflect blame for this ridiculous side-thread back
on me.

From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Mar 22 17:14:22 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:14:22 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550EE0A3.9080408@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <550CBD7E.4030903@Damon-Family.org>
 <550EE0A3.9080408@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <1427040862.125053.120.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Sun, 2015-03-22 at 11:32 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 3/20/2015 8:38 PM, Richard Damon <Richard at Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> > Thunderbird isn't quite like that, but when I reply to a message from 
> > the list I am given 3 options:
> > 
> > Reply
> > Reply All
> > Reply to List
> 
> Do you mean that you see a single button with a drop-down that provides
> these three choices?
> 
> If so, then you are using the 'Smart Reply' button that I described
> earlier, that

As of T-bird 31.4.0 for Ubuntu Linux 12.04 the _default_ behavior is to
present a "Reply List" button with a drop-down appendage when the index
cursor is located on a list post.  The when this tab is clicked, a
drop-down drop-down menu is attched to this button presents the above
listed options.  I determined this empirically by deleting T-bird and my
user config for it on one of my VMs and reinstalling it from scratch.

Nowhere in the visible UI is "Smart Reply" mentioned, nor is it listed
in the preferences menu.  This may be a default of the installation
rather than of of T-bird itself.

> a) is only available on the preview pane header toolbar, and

Yes, this is where it's located.

If I right-click on the preview pane itself (which is separate from the
header/button pane) I get a pop-up menu with "Reply to List" on it,
regardless of whether or not a post is a list post.  If I click on this
option for a non-list post I get a reply/composition window with the To
address empty.  For a list post, this is filled in with the list address
by T-bird.

> b) has to be manually placed there (unless it is now placed there by
> default automatically, which it wasn't when it was first introduced).

The "Reply List" button is apparently there by default when a list post
is selected.  T-bird 31.4.0 is doubtless not the latest version, since
the Linux distributions on my VMs is a few years old, so the behavior
may have changed since then. 

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Mar 22 18:38:33 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:38:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550EE52B.60909@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <1426861654.64327.41.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C3383.1080803@libertytrek.org>
 <1426864143.64327.57.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C68EC.8000309@libertytrek.org>
 <1426877299.66794.2.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <550EE52B.60909@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <1427045913.101378.9.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Sun, 2015-03-22 at 11:52 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 3/20/2015 2:48 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 14:37 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> >> No, the point is you apparently can't simply acknowledge that you
> >> mis-spoke/made a mistake.
> > 
> > Tanstaafl, it it will make you happy, I _officially_ acknowledge that I
> > made a mistake/mis-spoke, and I apologize to you, and to anyone else who
> > was confused or annoyed by what I said!
> > 
> > I still think you pretty much missed my point.
> > 
> > Can we move on now?
> 
> We could have moved on 3 posts ago had you simply said 'oops, yeah, I
> misspoke, here's what I meant', instead of trying to justify it somehow.
> 
> I even included a winkie in my first comment pointing out you probably
> mis-spoke - which, when combined with the rest of the content of my
> posts, shows conclusively that I did indeed 'get your point'.
> 
> And now you compound the problem by making a grand-standing apology
> obviously meant tongue-in-cheek, in that you don't really mean it, but
> instead are trying to deflect blame for this ridiculous side-thread back
> on me.

Again, I apologize to you, Tanstaafl, and anyone else who found my
over-broad assertion off-putting or inappropriate.  So, oops, yeah, I
misspoke.  And my first apology was completely sincere.

I'm making a conscious effort to not make broad assertions and
generalizations without providing at least _some_ evidence in support of
what I say.

If anyone else wishes to personally take me to task over this, PLEASE do
so in personal email.  I'll be happy, as always, to field technical
critiques on list of _any_ assertions I make, broad or narrow, as I'm
sure well everyone else on this list.

Subject closed!  Now back to our regularly scheduled program :)

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Mon Mar 23 09:58:02 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:58:02 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20150321065248.5909525b@abydos.stargate.org.uk>
References: <20150321065248.5909525b@abydos.stargate.org.uk>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503230954240.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

>> Usenet over UUCP via 300 baud modems on backbone servers with 5MB
>> disks.[1]

I adverse top-posting (and entire quoting of the whole replied message, or 
worst, thread) NOT because it is wasting bandwidth, NOT because it is 
wasting diskspace when archived ... but because it is disturbing to me to 
archive in each new message the entire content I already archived in the 
previous ones of the same thread.

Of course assuming we are talking of a serious correspondence worth being 
archived, not a chat.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Mon Mar 23 10:47:09 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:47:09 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
References: <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231041030.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

On Fri, 20 Mar 2015, J.B. Nicholson-Owens wrote:

> Every modern (typically GUI) MUA I know of has ...

I use a non-GUI MUA (Alpine) and I find it has all the features I can 
imagine to want (some of which were "user programmed")

> I think modern MUAs in widespread use (with the exception of Thunderbird 
> and its derivatives) don't do proper threading.

Alpine has threading, but I have not enabled it for e-mail (while I use it 
for Usenet newsgroups ... am I old enough ? :-)).

If I want to go back to a thread in a mailing list discussion (which I do 
not archive locally), I go to the list archive.

For personal (work) correspondence I need no threading. I archive message 
in separate folders by project/topic, and I can zoom in by subject.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Mon Mar 23 10:54:05 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:54:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015, Al Black wrote:

> Further to the point, between top posting and lack of editing, the 
> digest format of list posts are essentially unreadable.

Do you mean the MIME digests produced by mailman ? I totally disagree, 
they are one of the best features.

Subscribing in digest mode allows me to receive one cumulative post per 
day (about, unless there is more traffic) and deal with them not 
interrupting my other activities.

A proper MUA shall allow to read each message in the digest as if it were 
a single e-mail (and reply, archive, forward etc. etc.).

In the case of my MUA (Alpine) I've programmed it so that a single 
keystroke (for me it is capital D) will expand the digest in a temporary 
folder where I deal with individual messages.


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Mon Mar 23 11:47:54 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 06:47:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1427040862.125053.120.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <550C2613.20308@libertytrek.org> <550CBD7E.4030903@Damon-Family.org>
 <550EE0A3.9080408@libertytrek.org>
 <1427040862.125053.120.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <550FEF5A.2090403@libertytrek.org>

On 3/22/2015 12:14 PM, Lindsay Haisley <fmouse at fmp.com> wrote:
> Nowhere in the visible UI is "Smart Reply" mentioned, nor is it listed
> in the preferences menu.  This may be a default of the installation
> rather than of of T-bird itself.

If you get into customize mode for that toolbar (right-click on it,
customize), you'll see the name of the button is 'Smart Reply'...

But yeah, it looks like it is placed there by default now.

Now, I just wish the button was made available to the main toolbars too.

A couple of years ago, I had opened a bug requesting a new button with
the exact same name, then a few months after I opened that bug, I found
the one in the message header toolbar (not sure when it was introduced).
I then changed my bug to request that the button be available to all
toolbars, but it didn't go anywhere. The problem was something about the
button icon size changing (it is the last comment)...

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=868961

From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Mar 23 12:56:48 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 22:56:48 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org> <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20150323115648.GS31862@ando.pearwood.info>

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 05:45:58PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> I do understand that in some business situations (contract negotiations,
> attorney/client communication and the like), it is useful and pretty
> much demanded that each message contain the full transcript of what went
> before, 

I don't think it is useful. It might be demanded, but that's just 
because it's the convention, not because it's useful. If it were useful 
to include a full transcript of everything that went on prior in each 
and every message, lawyers would do so with paper correspondence (and 
charge the client for photocopying). But they don't.

I've been through a number of (thankfully minor) legal actions, and 
going through conventional top-posted emails is *painful*. It makes 
searching for keywords ineffective in all the email clients I've used. 
Nobody ever bothers to read or go through the quoted transcripts, why 
would you read the quoted-to-the-nth-degree text when you can read the 
original?

The worst example I found was quoted twenty-one levels deep. A three 
line response plus sig (naturally including one of those nonsense legal 
disclaimers about not reading the email if you aren't the intended 
recipient) followed by about thirty pages of quoted text starting with > 
then >> then >>> and so on to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. And it was my job 
to go through it, and the rest of the emails in the thread, in both 
directions, looking for anything relevent to the legal action. Even 
though I wasn't actively reading the quoted sections, the sheer volume 
of cruft to wade through is brain-melting. Counting the entire 
conversation, the original post was duplicated something like fifty or 
sixty times.

Fun times.


> but this has no place on an email discussion list.

Agreed! But too many people replying with their smart phones and 
iProducts can't do anything else...


> This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching
> the surface.

I feel your pain :-)


-- 
Steve

From roel at wagenaar.nu  Mon Mar 23 13:07:08 2015
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:07:08 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list / Re:
In-Reply-To: <550C1244.4020803@tip.nl>
References: <mailman.49.1426849203.6071.mailman-users@python.org> 
 <550C1244.4020803@tip.nl>
Message-ID: <mpro.nlnyzw0cyg9ls03qw@wagenaar.nu>

"A.K. Eyma" <ayma at tip.nl> wrote:

 <snip>

> Having all mail of a list come in with [listname] first in each subject line
> is more tidy. In that way you would differentiate at one glance in your inbox
> between
> 


Filtering maillist messages to a folder per list is a far more tidy way of
dealing with the problem of identifying messages.

Hell even Thunderbird can do that:

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/organize-your-messages-using-filters



> Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way
> 
> for responses that have been sent offlist to you
> 
> and
> 
> [Mailman-Users] Re: The "right" way
> 
> for responses that have been sent onlist, i.e. via the list.
> 
> [] is the list's 'stamp' on mails, why insert it after Re:?
> 
> I am making sense, really! ;))
> 
> 
> kind regards, Aayko Eyma
> 


-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

Diplomacy is the art of letting someone else get your way.

From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Mar 23 15:36:39 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:36:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list / Re:
In-Reply-To: <mpro.nlnyzw0cyg9ls03qw@wagenaar.nu>
References: <mailman.49.1426849203.6071.mailman-users@python.org>
 <550C1244.4020803@tip.nl> <mpro.nlnyzw0cyg9ls03qw@wagenaar.nu>
Message-ID: <1427121399.101378.68.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 13:07 +0100, Roel Wagenaar wrote:
> Filtering maillist messages to a folder per list is a far more tidy way of
> dealing with the problem of identifying messages.

I did run into a minor issue with this regarding IMAP retrieval of mail.
It's important, in general, to make sure that automatic filtering is
done on only _one_ system if you have several checking the same
server-side mail repository.  Otherwise, you can get multiple copies of
filtered emails in your filter target folders.  T-bird may be more
intelligent than Evolution (which is generally very intelligent about
such things) about not filtering email that's been marked for deletion
but not yet expunged.

But this is a minor matter and rather OT for this thread.
> 
-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mneedham at hdfgroup.org  Mon Mar 23 16:15:34 2015
From: mneedham at hdfgroup.org (Matthew Needham)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 15:15:34 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net>
Message-ID: <086AC705-A222-43CB-884A-16B5F180505E@hdfgroup.org>


> On Mar 21, 2015, at 19:52 PM, William Bagwell <rb211 at tds.net> wrote:
> 
> On Saturday 21 March 2015, Al Black wrote:
>> Although the ideal solution is obviously users changing their behaviour
>> and or MUAs, I've wondered whether an "auto-trim" function within mailman
>> would make sense (for digest users...)  
> 
> Yes! For every one, not just digest users. And it should default to removing 
> all but one single level of quoted text (regardless of top or bottom 
> posting) and be *user* setable to none removed or all quoted text removed. 

The email interface for our ticket system attempts to avoid these sorts of problems in comments by automatically stripping all quoted text. It undoubtedly could work better than it does (perhaps a more recent version does), and this situation is certainly different from a mailing list, but it has convinced me that any programmatic trimming of content is bound to cause problems for users.

Despite this, due to the preponderance of the very issues discussed in this thread, the feature is still useful and enabled. 


-- 

Matthew Needham
mneedham at hdfgroup.org
217-531-6110

The HDF Group
1800 South Oak Street, Suite 203
Champaign, IL 61820


From thomas at ifi.uio.no  Mon Mar 23 17:46:51 2015
From: thomas at ifi.uio.no (Thomas Gramstad)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:46:51 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Mar 2015, Al Black wrote:
>
>>  Further to the point, between top posting and lack of editing, the digest
>>  format of list posts are essentially unreadable.
>
> Do you mean the MIME digests produced by mailman ? I totally disagree, they 
> are one of the best features.
>
> Subscribing in digest mode allows me to receive one cumulative post per day 
> (about, unless there is more traffic) and deal with them not interrupting my 
> other activities.
>
> A proper MUA shall allow to read each message in the digest as if it were a 
> single e-mail (and reply, archive, forward etc. etc.).

But people don't have proper MUAs, or if they do, many don't know 
how to use them. So if you allow the digest version, somebody 
will respond to one of the messages in the digest version with a 
oneliner response which is top posted, followed by the quotation 
of the whole digest, and with a pointless Subject: (digest 
number) thrown in for good measure.

Thomas Gramstad
thomas at ifi.uio.no

From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Mar 23 18:55:36 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:55:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 17:46 +0100, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
> > A proper MUA shall allow to read each message in the digest as if it were a 
> > single e-mail (and reply, archive, forward etc. etc.).

I know of exactly one that's "proper" in this regard.  One of the
reasons I keep Evolution as my primary MUA is because it allows me to
extract a message/rfc822 part from a multipart/mixed MIME structure and
save it _as an email_ in the mail folder of my choice, at which point I
can deal with it as I wish.
> 
T-bird doesn't do this, or didn't used to.  Certainly Apple mail
products don't even come close, nor do Microsoft MUAs.  Does anyone know
of any others that can do this?  This ability is kind of my litmus test
for an MUA.

I've found this quite useful in the past for emails identified as spam
by SpamAssassin which are in fact not.  I can pull them out of the
wrapper that SpamAssassin puts around them and put them into my Inbox.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar 23 19:23:56 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 11:23:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>

On 03/23/2015 10:55 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> I know of exactly one that's "proper" in this regard.  One of the
> reasons I keep Evolution as my primary MUA is because it allows me to
> extract a message/rfc822 part from a multipart/mixed MIME structure and
> save it _as an email_ in the mail folder of my choice, at which point I
> can deal with it as I wish.
>>
> T-bird doesn't do this, or didn't used to.

As far back as I can remember, T-bird does do this. It will display all
messages in a multipart/digest inline, but also list them as
'attachments' which can be opened in a separate T-bird window and/or
saved to a file.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Mar 23 19:34:03 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:34:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1427135643.13312.35.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 11:23 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > I know of exactly one that's "proper" in this regard.  One of the
> > reasons I keep Evolution as my primary MUA is because it allows me to
> > extract a message/rfc822 part from a multipart/mixed MIME structure and
> > save it _as an email_ in the mail folder of my choice, at which point I
> > can deal with it as I wish.
> >>
> > T-bird doesn't do this, or didn't used to.
> 
> As far back as I can remember, T-bird does do this. It will display all
> messages in a multipart/digest inline, but also list them as
> 'attachments' which can be opened in a separate T-bird window and/or
> saved to a file.

T-bird comes close, but no cigar.  I've tinkered with it to try to make
it do what Thomas suggested was proper (with which I agree).  T-bird
treats a message/rfc822 attachment as it would a text/plain attachment.
You can do whatever you wish with the attachment _except_ pull it into a
mail folder as a valid email.  I may be missing something, but as I say
this is my litmus test for an MUA which treats me like a technically
educated human, so I've poked at a number of different versions of it
and never been able to make it behave this way.
> 
-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Mar 23 19:44:42 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:44:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1427136282.13312.39.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 11:23 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> It will display all
> messages in a multipart/digest inline, but also list them as
> 'attachments'

I haven't dealt with MIME-format digests from MM for quite a while.  I
assume that these are functionally attachments with a MIME type of
message/rfc822, yes?  If not, then IMHO they should be.  If they're not,
then there's no help for it, and there's no MUA out there which will do
what Thomas suggests and T-bird's behavior is as good as it gets.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar 23 19:58:37 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 11:58:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1427136282.13312.39.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
 <1427136282.13312.39.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <5510625D.8030708@msapiro.net>

On 03/23/2015 11:44 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> I haven't dealt with MIME-format digests from MM for quite a while.  I
> assume that these are functionally attachments with a MIME type of
> message/rfc822, yes?


Yes. The MIME type of the digest part is multipart/digest. The
individual messages are message/rfc822 sub-parts.

The overall message is multipart/mixed with maybe a text/plain part for
digest_header, two text/plain parts for the boiler plate and the TOC,
the multipart/digest part and maybe a text/plain part for digest_footer.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From thomas at ifi.uio.no  Mon Mar 23 20:06:27 2015
From: thomas at ifi.uio.no (Thomas Gramstad)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:06:27 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1427135643.13312.35.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
 <1427135643.13312.35.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503232002070.15351@brederode.ifi.uio.no>

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 11:23 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> I know of exactly one that's "proper" in this regard.  One of the
>>> reasons I keep Evolution as my primary MUA is because it allows me to
>>> extract a message/rfc822 part from a multipart/mixed MIME structure and
>>> save it _as an email_ in the mail folder of my choice, at which point I
>>> can deal with it as I wish.
>>>>
>>> T-bird doesn't do this, or didn't used to.
>>
>> As far back as I can remember, T-bird does do this. It will display all
>> messages in a multipart/digest inline, but also list them as
>> 'attachments' which can be opened in a separate T-bird window and/or
>> saved to a file.
>
> T-bird comes close, but no cigar.  I've tinkered with it to try 
> to make it do what Thomas suggested was proper (with which I 
> agree).

I didn't. You misattributed a previous post to me.

My suggestion is to turn off the digest option unless you'd start 
losing/not getting subscribers to a significant degree. (Which 
would typically occur for really high volume lists. Most lists 
aren't.)

Thomas Gramstad
thomas at ifi.uio.no

From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Mar 23 20:07:12 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 14:07:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <5510625D.8030708@msapiro.net>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
 <1427136282.13312.39.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <5510625D.8030708@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1427137632.13312.43.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 11:58 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Yes. The MIME type of the digest part is multipart/digest. The
> individual messages are message/rfc822 sub-parts.

So ideally, a "proper" MUA should be able to extract and deal with the
message/rfc822 sub-parts as emails in their own right.

> The overall message is multipart/mixed with maybe a text/plain part for
> digest_header, two text/plain parts for the boiler plate and the TOC,
> the multipart/digest part and maybe a text/plain part for digest_footer.

Pretty much what one would expect.
> 
-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Mar 23 20:13:13 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 14:13:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503232002070.15351@brederode.ifi.uio.no>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
 <1427135643.13312.35.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503232002070.15351@brederode.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <1427137993.13312.47.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 20:06 +0100, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
> I didn't. You misattributed a previous post to me.
> 
I'm sorry, my bad.  I got tangled up in the quote levels. Lucio
Chiappetti said it.

> A proper MUA shall allow to read each message in the digest as if it were 
> a single e-mail (and reply, archive, forward etc. etc.).

My apology.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar 23 20:20:45 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:20:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1427135643.13312.35.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
 <1427135643.13312.35.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <5510678D.5080405@msapiro.net>

On 03/23/2015 11:34 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> T-bird comes close, but no cigar.  I've tinkered with it to try to make
> it do what Thomas suggested was proper (with which I agree).  T-bird
> treats a message/rfc822 attachment as it would a text/plain attachment.
> You can do whatever you wish with the attachment _except_ pull it into a
> mail folder as a valid email.


Correct. You can't just move it to one of your existing mail folders
without machinations.

Interestingly, there is an undigestify add-on for T-bird
<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/thunderbird/addon/undigestify/>.

It will explode a digest into individual messages in the same folder,
but it only works with RFC 1153 digests (Mailman's plain format). It
doesn't work with MIME format digests.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar 23 20:26:39 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:26:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
Message-ID: <551068EF.5010105@msapiro.net>

On 03/23/2015 02:54 AM, Lucio Chiappetti wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2015, Al Black wrote:
> 
>> Further to the point, between top posting and lack of editing, the
>> digest format of list posts are essentially unreadable.
> 
> Do you mean the MIME digests produced by mailman ? I totally disagree,
> they are one of the best features.


I think he's referring to the difficulty of reading (in particular) the
plain format digest when it's full of top posted "me too" replies with
quotes of quotes ...

Trying to find the original material amongst the quotes which you've
already seen multiple times in the same digest is daunting to say the least.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Mar 23 20:28:25 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 14:28:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <5510678D.5080405@msapiro.net>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
 <1427135643.13312.35.camel@pudina.fmp.com> <5510678D.5080405@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1427138905.13312.53.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 12:20 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Interestingly, there is an undigestify add-on for T-bird
> <https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/thunderbird/addon/undigestify/>.
> 
> It will explode a digest into individual messages in the same folder,
> but it only works with RFC 1153 digests (Mailman's plain format). It
> doesn't work with MIME format digests.

The nice thing about Evolution's capability in this regard is that it
will work with _any_ multipart/mixed or equivalent package containing
message/rfc822 parts.  I use it, as I said, for pulling valid emails out
of false-positive captures by SpamAssassin.  This is kind of the
equivalent of a browser knowing what to do with images or PDFs.
> 
-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From al-black at telus.net  Tue Mar 24 00:06:54 2015
From: al-black at telus.net (Al Black)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:06:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <551068EF.5010105@msapiro.net>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <551068EF.5010105@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <D3E0731D-6441-4C23-AB7F-796E32847213@telus.net>

Hey everyone,

On 2015-03-23, at 1:26 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> On 03/23/2015 02:54 AM, Lucio Chiappetti wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2015, Al Black wrote:
>> 
>>> Further to the point, between top posting and lack of editing, the
>>> digest format of list posts are essentially unreadable.
>> 
>> Do you mean the MIME digests produced by mailman ? I totally disagree,
>> they are one of the best features.
> 
> I think he's referring to the difficulty of reading (in particular) the
> plain format digest when it's full of top posted "me too" replies with
> quotes of quotes ...
> 
> Trying to find the original material amongst the quotes which you've
> already seen multiple times in the same digest is daunting to say the least.

Thanks Mark, that's my point precisely.  What I've heard from users is that the mime digests are better but it depends on their MUA(s).  

I spent a few hours yesterday thinking about a "cleaner" to improve the signal noise for the kind of posts were talking about.  Not a simple problem to solve (well for me anyway).  

al

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 24 01:19:38 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:19:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <D3E0731D-6441-4C23-AB7F-796E32847213@telus.net>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <551068EF.5010105@msapiro.net>
 <D3E0731D-6441-4C23-AB7F-796E32847213@telus.net>
Message-ID: <5510AD9A.8080206@msapiro.net>

On 03/23/2015 04:06 PM, Al Black wrote:
> 
> I spent a few hours yesterday thinking about a "cleaner" to improve the signal noise for the kind of posts were talking about.  Not a simple problem to solve (well for me anyway).  


It's a very hard problem. You can see some of my attempts at this at
<http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/MoreHolds.py>. A version of the
rejectquote.txt template used by this script is at
<http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/rejectquote.txt>

This handler is currently installed on my production site with the
parameters as in the URL above, which in particular means RATIO is set
to zero so no posts are held or rejected for excessive quoting. (The
other holds are for no Subject:, digest Subject: or quoting of digest
boilerplate.)

The calculation of quoted_count and unquoted_count and addition of same
to the decoration-data is still done so that one can put something like


Experimental software on this Mailman installation thinks this post
contained %(unquoted_count)s characters of new/original text and
%(quoted_count)s characters of text quoted/included from prior list posts.
________________________________________


Into a list's msg_header (or footer) to try to educate people, but only
one test list on my site has such.

For my first attempt at actually doing this in production, I think RATIO
was set to 4 and REJECT_QUOTES was False (actually not implemented yet).
The idea was I could hold some messages and edit them before bouncing
them back to the list, and people might learn to do better.

I soon decided this was putting all the burden on me and users had
little motivation to change, so I implemented REJECT_QUOTES and set it True.

The end result is at least some people wanted to top post and quote the
entire message to which they were replying and they would go to extra
trouble to edit the quoted material so I wouldn't recognize it as such
or just paste in garbage to lower the ratio of quoted to unquoted. I.e.
they spent more time and effort trying to bypass the rule than it would
take to just do the right thing.

My main production list is the general discussion list for my cycling
club. In the end, the club asked me to stop trying and I complied. A few
people did learn and change their style, but some of those have since
reverted.

Another interesting (to me at least) is the way in which convention and
MUA design operates with relatively non-technical folks. I almost always
reply to any email by interleaving my replies within whatever bits of
quoted material I leave in the message as necessary to establish
context. I've had friends say to me "I really like the way you reply to
emails. How do you do that?"

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Mar 24 03:30:29 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:30:29 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1427137632.13312.43.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <55105A3C.1010006@msapiro.net>
 <1427136282.13312.39.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <5510625D.8030708@msapiro.net>
 <1427137632.13312.43.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87twxbm8je.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:
 > On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 11:58 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
 > > Yes. The MIME type of the digest part is multipart/digest. The
 > > individual messages are message/rfc822 sub-parts.
 > 
 > So ideally, a "proper" MUA should be able to extract and deal with the
 > message/rfc822 sub-parts as emails in their own right.

Yes.  Most Emacs-based MUAs (all the ones I've used, which is about
6), including even the horrible old RMail, can do this.  Mutt and
IIRC Alpine can too.

There's also an older format (RFC 974, I believe).  The Emacs-based
MUAs can folderize such digests, too, or "explode" them into
individual messages and add them to a folder (usually just the current
folder).


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Mar 24 03:32:38 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:32:38 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <D3E0731D-6441-4C23-AB7F-796E32847213@telus.net>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <551068EF.5010105@msapiro.net>
 <D3E0731D-6441-4C23-AB7F-796E32847213@telus.net>
Message-ID: <87sicvm8ft.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Al Black writes:

 > I spent a few hours yesterday thinking about a "cleaner" to improve
 > the signal noise for the kind of posts were talking about.  Not a
 > simple problem to solve (well for me anyway).

If you're serious about maintaining the relevant content, it's *very*
hard (requires "AI" natural language processing).

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Tue Mar 24 09:51:27 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:51:27 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503240945480.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote:

>> Subscribing in digest mode allows me to receive one cumulative post per 
>> day

which is something many people can appreciate (at least those who 
subscribe to mailing list, and then complain because they are interrupted 
in their work by too many new mails arriving)

>> A proper MUA shall allow to read each message in the digest as if it 
>> were a single e-mail (and reply, archive, forward etc. etc.).
>
> But people don't have proper MUAs, or if they do, many don't know
> how to use them.

Well, sorry, too bad for them ! :-)

> So if you allow the digest version

Digest version is something the (knowledgeable) user enables in the 
personal setting.

I may agree it would not be a good idea for the list administrator to 
configure a list to send MIME digests *as default*, but it is good for 
users to be able to enable them.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Tue Mar 24 10:05:05 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 10:05:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503240952030.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> I know of exactly one that's "proper" in this regard.  One of the 
> reasons I keep Evolution as my primary MUA is because it allows me to 
> extract a message/rfc822 part from a multipart/mixed MIME structure and 
> save it _as an email_ in the mail folder of my choice, at which point I 
> can deal with it as I wish.

Same behaviour I get with alpine (although not native, see below).

> T-bird doesn't do this, or didn't used to.  Certainly Apple mail 
> products don't even come close, nor do Microsoft MUAs.  Does anyone know 
> of any others that can do this?

I tried T-bird only to help a friend to stay away from Microsoft MUAs, or 
ISP webmailers. I was deluded about it (for instance the way to handle the 
addressbook in alpine is far superior) but did not try MIME digest 
handling. I did not try Fossa-Mail (which stays to T-bird the same way 
Palemoon stays to Firefox). Did not try Mutt (of which I heard much good).

People here use either Alpine, or Kmail, or Squirrel web mailer or T-bird.

To be fair, the native handling of MIME digests in Alpine is far from 
elegant. You can View the index of the digest (as the index of attachments 
in any multipart message), and if you point to one of the message/rfc822 
components in the (crowded) index and click, it will open it as an e-mail.

I overcame this using the capability of pine to program user keystrokes, 
and to feed messages in external scripts. So I point to the digest 
message, and type a capital D. That will spawn a one-liner script and then 
move to the folder contains the expanded digest.

The one-liner uses a procmail utility to split the digest into a folder:
formail +1 -ds >! /poseidon/lucio/mail/temporary

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From lac at openend.se  Tue Mar 24 15:11:06 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 15:11:06 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: Message from Bernd Petrovitsch <bernd@petrovitsch.priv.at>
 of "Sun, 22 Mar 2015 14:33:07 +0100." <1427031188.20946.51.camel@thorin>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net><1427031188.20946.51.camel@thorin>
Message-ID: <201503241411.t2OEB6wj023887@fido.openend.se>

I don't remember now who it was that was trying to write a 'how to use mail'
document for their users, but I have a suggestion.

A lot of the time, what you really want is to get rid of all of the quoted
material altogether.  A bit of usenet history is of interest here.  In
the very old days, we didn't have a way to quote any mail at all.  We didn't
have threads, either.

A small number of people could not, therefore be held accountable for what
they had actually said, as they kept saying that what they had said was
something different.  So you would get a hold of the old piece of mail,
yank out the appropriate text, and say -- look here, you cannot hide, this
is what you said and here it is!

This happened often enough that several of us decided that it would be a
good idea to put quoting into the mail and news readers we were using at
the time.  And I am one of the people who did so.  And it made certain
things infinitely more convenient.

And this turned out to be a mixed blessing.  Whereas before people
would say:  XXX has made a series of interesting proposals, but he has
misunderstood RFC Blah Blah Blah where we are mandated to do This_Thing
and provide Obnoxious_Headers X Y and Z.  So all of his proposals are
moot unless we can get a new RFC to supercede Blah Blah Blah, with
quoting it became all too easy to rip XXXs proposal to shreds, point by
point, instead of just nailing it once, on the main point.

The problem with the approach is that, for poor old XXX the effect went
from 'you need to read RFC Blah Blah Blah again, because you have
misunderstood it -- or didn't know that it existed and was relevant' to

You're Wrong.
and You're Wrong here as well.
And here.
And here.
Because you are an Idiot.

This sort of point-by-point dressing down really had only one counterpart
in face-to-face communication -- where a Superior dresses down a Subordinate,
in front of an audience.  The main purpose of such things has nothing to
do with the Subordinate that got the dressing down, but everything to do
with maintaining the Superior's authority and making the audience quiver
in their boots (while thanking God that they weren't getting the chewing
out).

So, unsurprisingly, people who had made tiny errors in understanding or
interpretation flipped right out at what they perceived as bucket-loads
of nitpicking contempt hurled at them for no particularly good reason,
by a person whose authority they didn't recognise.  It was also widely
condemned as a way to impose a hierarchical structure on something that
had hitherto been working in a rather flat, equalitarian manner.  And
it had a chilling effect on whether people who were young, new and trying
to learn things were willing to post their current thoughts on a matter.

On several mailing lists I have been members of for years civility only
returned when we point blank banned this form of point by point
rebuttal.

So, if you are writing such a document, insist that people understand
that they only have to win an argument once.  There are no bonus points
awarded for overkill. :)

Laura Creighton


From lac at openend.se  Tue Mar 24 15:54:40 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 15:54:40 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: Message from Lindsay Haisley <fmouse@fmp.com> of "Mon,
 23 Mar 2015 12:55:36 -0500." <1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no><1427133336.13312.13.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <201503241454.t2OEseLT026491@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:55:36 -0500, Lindsay Haisley writes:
>I know of exactly one that's "proper" in this regard.  One of the
>reasons I keep Evolution as my primary MUA is because it allows me to
>extract a message/rfc822 part from a multipart/mixed MIME structure and
>save it _as an email_ in the mail folder of my choice, at which point I
>can deal with it as I wish.

>T-bird doesn't do this, or didn't used to.  Certainly Apple mail
>products don't even come close, nor do Microsoft MUAs.  Does anyone know
>of any others that can do this?  This ability is kind of my litmus test
>for an MUA.

nmh can do this. http://www.nongnu.org/nmh/

Laura

From mailman-owner at rx7-world.net  Tue Mar 24 16:46:36 2015
From: mailman-owner at rx7-world.net (John)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:46:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] update trashed Mailman...  :-/
In-Reply-To: <mailman.44.1427194803.22716.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.44.1427194803.22716.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <551186DC.9090706@rx7-world.net>

Applied a bunch of updates last night, including Mailman... now Mailman is
trashed again.  >:-(  I remember fixing this when I first setup Mailman, not
amused the an update "restores" the issue. Now I need to remember what I fixed
last time.

John

"Command died with status 2:
    "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post <listname>". Command output: Group mismatch
    error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as group
    "mailman", but the system's mail server executed the mail script as group
    "nogroup".  Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as group
    "mailman", or re-run configure,  providing the command line option
    `--with-mail-gid=nogroup'."

From thomas at ifi.uio.no  Tue Mar 24 16:59:52 2015
From: thomas at ifi.uio.no (Thomas Gramstad)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:59:52 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503240945480.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503240945480.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503241652160.57355@vetur.ifi.uio.no>

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
>>  On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote:
>
>> >  Subscribing in digest mode allows me to receive one 
>> >  cumulative post per day
>
> which is something many people can appreciate (at least those 
> who subscribe to mailing list, and then complain because they 
> are interrupted in their work by too many new mails arriving)

How can mail "interrupt"? Turn off noisy bells and whistles, sort 
list mail to their proper folders to be read at a suitable time, 
and exercise some work discipline! :)

Mail arrives all the time anyway, so people need to be able to 
deal with that.

>> >  A proper MUA shall allow to read each message in the digest 
>> >  as if it were a single e-mail (and reply, archive, forward 
>> >  etc. etc.).
>>
>>  But people don't have proper MUAs, or if they do, many don't know
>>  how to use them.
>
> Well, sorry, too bad for them ! :-)
>
>>  So if you allow the digest version
>
> Digest version is something the (knowledgeable) user enables in 
> the personal setting.

As list owner / moderator I can decide to disable this setting, 
which is something many people appreciate, as it prevents hard to 
read comments on big "blobs" of text, and dysfunctional Subject: 
lines.

> I may agree it would not be a good idea for the list 
> administrator to configure a list to send MIME digests *as 
> default*, but it is good for users to be able to enable them.

"Well, sorry, too bad for them !" :-)

Thomas Gramstad
thomas at ifi.uio.no

From danijel.domazet at gmail.com  Tue Mar 24 09:11:06 2015
From: danijel.domazet at gmail.com (Danijel Domazet)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:11:06 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disable any notifications after user subscibes via
	LISTNAME-join@DOMAIN?
Message-ID: <CAL5QDY6g7+NNc=Jv5rm115CssXQHv1T1L_PvAPXpj8y9zn=prg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mailman users,
When a user tries to subscribe to the list by sending email to
LISTNAME-join at DOMAIN, he/she receives an email reply with subject "The
results of your email commands", etc.

Is there a way to disable any email notifications sent to the user after he
subscibes to the list via LISTNAME-join at DOMAIN?

Thanks,
Danijel

From Rafael.Lamari at vbofficeware.com.br  Tue Mar 24 14:04:46 2015
From: Rafael.Lamari at vbofficeware.com.br (Rafael Lamari)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 10:04:46 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Information!!
Message-ID: <OF5546EF7D.853D6B3B-ON83257E12.0047A772-83257E12.0047F500@vbofficeware.com.br>

Hello

Would anyone tell me if there are cases of Mailman Dicussion List 
integration with IBM Notes / Domino v9?

Thanks!!!

Rafael Lamari


"Esta mensagem, incluindo seus anexos, pode conter informa??o confidencial 
e/ou privilegiada. Portanto, fica o seu receptor notificado de que n?o 
deve usar, copiar, divulgar ou tomar qualquer atitude com base nestas 
informa??es. Se voc? recebeu esta mensagem por engano, solicitamos que 
voc? a apague. Quaisquer considera??es ou opini?es contidas nesta mensagem 
pertencem somente ao autor remetente e n?o representam necessariamente a 
opini?o da V&B Officeware, a n?o ser que esteja descrito explicitamente 
que o remetente est? autorizado a represent?-la. Grato pela sua 
colabora??o."

From cpz at tuunq.com  Tue Mar 24 17:28:42 2015
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:28:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503241652160.57355@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503240945480.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503241652160.57355@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <551190BA.1060405@tuunq.com>

On 3/24/2015 8:59 AM, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
> How can mail "interrupt"? [...]
> Mail arrives all the time anyway, so people need to be able to deal with that.

Exactly. Mail arrives when it does and I read it when I do. I really don't 
know why so many people feel compelled to check each message as it arrives.

I also don't generally understand most people's perceived need for digests*. 
IME they only work well when the list is well-moderated, which usually 
involved grouping topics and some editing (removing excessive quoting, for 
one). I'm on one list that does that and it works nicely, all the rest of my 
lists, and there must be 20-30, are individual messages. It works for me.

*also IME these people tend to think 20 total messages a day is a lot of 
email, and one digest email of 20 individual messages still only counts as 
one in their minds.

There's also a user-discipline issue of replying to mid-thread messages, but 
that's another rathole.

Laura- thanks for the discussion of the pre-quoting years.

z!


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 24 17:55:57 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:55:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] update trashed Mailman...  :-/
In-Reply-To: <551186DC.9090706@rx7-world.net>
References: <mailman.44.1427194803.22716.mailman-users@python.org>
 <551186DC.9090706@rx7-world.net>
Message-ID: <5511971D.4030304@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2015 08:46 AM, John wrote:
> Applied a bunch of updates last night, including Mailman... now Mailman is
> trashed again.  >:-(  I remember fixing this when I first setup Mailman, not
> amused the an update "restores" the issue. Now I need to remember what I fixed
> last time.
> 
> John
> 
> "Command died with status 2:
>     "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post <listname>". Command output: Group mismatch
>     error.


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030645>.

Note that if your MTA is Postfix and delivers to Mailman using aliases,
you can probably fix this by ensuring that the owner of the aliases.db
file that contains Mailman's aliases is 'mailman'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mailman-owner at rx7-world.net  Tue Mar 24 17:59:22 2015
From: mailman-owner at rx7-world.net (John)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:59:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] update trashed Mailman...  :-/
In-Reply-To: <551186DC.9090706@rx7-world.net>
References: <mailman.44.1427194803.22716.mailman-users@python.org>
 <551186DC.9090706@rx7-world.net>
Message-ID: <551197EA.9020908@rx7-world.net>

I remember last time 'tweaking the mail server to run the script as group
"mailman"'. After some file rummaging, I decided to rerun "configure
--with-mail-gid=nogroup" & remake mailman. Lists are working again. Hopefully
that will permanently solve the issue...

John

On 3/24/15 8:46 AM, John wrote:
> Applied a bunch of updates last night, including Mailman... now Mailman is
> trashed again.  >:-(  I remember fixing this when I first setup Mailman, not
> amused the an update "restores" the issue. Now I need to remember what I fixed
> last time.
> 
> John
> 
> "Command died with status 2:
>     "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post <listname>". Command output: Group mismatch
>     error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as group
>     "mailman", but the system's mail server executed the mail script as group
>     "nogroup".  Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as group
>     "mailman", or re-run configure,  providing the command line option
>     `--with-mail-gid=nogroup'."
> 


From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Tue Mar 24 18:38:15 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 18:38:15 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503241652160.57355@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503241652160.57355@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503241827360.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
>>>  On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote:
>>
>>>>  digest mode allows o receive one cumulative post per day
>>
>> which is something many people can appreciate (at least those who 
>> complain because they are interrupted in their work by too many new 
>> mails arriving)
>
> How can mail "interrupt"?

I am not saying I am one of those who are so annoyed when for instance one 
gets "me too" replies on an internal organization discussion list (or 
simply condolences for an obituary of a colleague) ... in which case I 
suggest them to use digest mode.

However mailing lists are usually a second priority to our main activity, 
be they discussion or technical support ones. So while it is good to reply 
asap to a person-to-person mail message, it is also good to wait to deal 
with mailing list messages. This is less distracting, allows to cool down 
discussions, to enforce the rule of one-post-per-day in the policy of some 
mailing lists etc. etc.  ... so thanks to mailman authors for having it !

>>>  But people don't have proper MUAs, or if they do, many don't know
>>>  how to use them.
>>
>> Well, sorry, too bad for them ! :-)

>> Digest version is something the (knowledgeable) user enables in
>> the personal setting.
>
> As list owner / moderator I can decide to disable this setting,

It is surely in your power and rights :-)

> which is something many people appreciate, as it prevents hard to
> read comments on big "blobs" of text, and dysfunctional Subject:
> lines.

Usually the clueless which will reply to a digest are the same clueless 
who are unable to turn it on if it is off by default, and the same 
clueless unable to find a proper MUA and use it.

> As list owner / moderator I can decide to disable this setting,
   ...
> "Well, sorry, too bad for them !" :-)

Or "pity for them" :-)  ... the poor "knowledgeable users"

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From benfell at parts-unknown.org  Tue Mar 24 19:55:11 2015
From: benfell at parts-unknown.org (David Benfell)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:55:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] virtual domain confusion
Message-ID: <20150324115511.Horde.gLCt-liyZuy_pHjpolBy7g1@mail.parts-unknown.org>

Hi all,

I'm trying to figure out virtual domains with mailman (and, yes,  
postfix). I have added

POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['humansci.org']

to my mm_cfg.py

But when I go to my administration page, I see no option to create a  
list under that domain. How is this supposed to be done?

Thanks!
-- 
David Benfell <benfell at parts-unknown.org>
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From cybergram at eastlink.ca  Tue Mar 24 21:33:20 2015
From: cybergram at eastlink.ca (Nancy Cullen)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:33:20 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrubbing html
Message-ID: <0fe69f0ffb3c64bb854a1e13c65c7793@cmgw05.eastlink.ca>

Hi, hoping someone can help me with settings. The group that I am 
listkeeper for just recently started
allowing html but our digest still shows this message at the end of each post:

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...

Thank you for any help!

Nancy


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Tue Mar 24 22:03:50 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:03:50 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB86D@nuwvicms2>

Thomas Gramstad wrote:

> > Subscribing in digest mode allows me to receive one cumulative post 
> > per day (about, unless there is more traffic) and deal with 
> them not 
> > interrupting my other activities.
> >
> > A proper MUA shall allow to read each message in the digest 
> as if it 
> > were a single e-mail (and reply, archive, forward etc. etc.).
> 
> But people don't have proper MUAs, or if they do, many don't 
> know how to use them. So if you allow the digest version, 
> somebody will respond to one of the messages in the digest 
> version with a oneliner response which is top posted, 
> followed by the quotation of the whole digest, and with a 
> pointless Subject: (digest
> number) thrown in for good measure.

All this talk about digests and being able to extract the original emails prompted me to try setting one of my subscriptions to digest mode. 

I had previously tried this and found that the resulting emails were presented to me in Outlook as one long email, and that replying to one of the contained emails involved editing out all the other emails, and adjusting the subject line. The reply behaviour of our list's digest members suggests they have to do the same thing (but often forget).

But this time I tried unticking the "Plain" option for my subscription. I was surprised to see that they did start coming through as individual attachements, and that I could open them and reply to them "properly". This works in both Outlook and iOS Mail.

But all I see is an index and a long list of unnamed attachments. If I want to read them, I have to open them one by one to see what's in them, or look at the index numbers and count through the attachements to find the right one. Is this normal? Perhaps this is something to do with convert_html_to_plaintext being set to On? We also have mime_is_default_digest set to Plain.

Peter Shute

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Tue Mar 24 22:24:42 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:24:42 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <551190BA.1060405@tuunq.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503240945480.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503241652160.57355@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <551190BA.1060405@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB86E@nuwvicms2>

Carl Zwanzig wrote:

> > How can mail "interrupt"? [...]
> > Mail arrives all the time anyway, so people need to be able 
> to deal with that.
> 
> Exactly. Mail arrives when it does and I read it when I do. I 
> really don't know why so many people feel compelled to check 
> each message as it arrives.

Have you ever been in the situation where you're waiting for an important email which must be acted on quickly, and your mailbox is also suddenly receiving a flood of emails from a normally quiet list? It's so easy to miss the important emails, especially on a phone with it's tiny screen.

Many of us deal with this by creating a message rule that filters the unimportant list mail to a folder to be read at leisure. But many people don't know how to create message rules. When pop3 mail was common it wasn't possible to have the rules running server-side, so many users still don't even know it's possible. So they panic and either:
- unsubscribe
- reply to the list demanding that people stop talking about this off topic subject
- change to digest mode
 
Peter Shute

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 24 22:25:16 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 14:25:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] virtual domain confusion
In-Reply-To: <20150324115511.Horde.gLCt-liyZuy_pHjpolBy7g1@mail.parts-unknown.org>
References: <20150324115511.Horde.gLCt-liyZuy_pHjpolBy7g1@mail.parts-unknown.org>
Message-ID: <5511D63C.4010006@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2015 11:55 AM, David Benfell wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to figure out virtual domains with mailman (and, yes,
> postfix). I have added
> 
> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['humansci.org']
> 
> to my mm_cfg.py


You probable also need

add_virtualhost('www.humansci.org', 'humansci.org')

in mm_cfg.py (assuming www.humansci.org is the web domain and
humansci.org is the email domain).


> But when I go to my administration page, I see no option to create a
> list under that domain. How is this supposed to be done?


Go to http://www.humansci.org/mailman/create or whatever the appropriate
path is for Mailman CGIs in your installation with the web domain of
this host and create the list, or use bin/newlist with
--urlhost=www.humansci.org.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From pshute at nuw.org.au  Tue Mar 24 22:34:32 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:34:32 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <201503241411.t2OEB6wj023887@fido.openend.se>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net><1427031188.20946.51.camel@thorin>
 <201503241411.t2OEB6wj023887@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB870@nuwvicms2>

Laura Creighton wrote:

> A lot of the time, what you really want is to get rid of all 
> of the quoted material altogether.  A bit of usenet history 
> is of interest here.  In the very old days, we didn't have a 
> way to quote any mail at all.  We didn't have threads, either.
.
.
.
> This happened often enough that several of us decided that it 
> would be a good idea to put quoting into the mail and news 
> readers we were using at the time.  And I am one of the 
> people who did so.  And it made certain things infinitely 
> more convenient.
.
.
.
> This sort of point-by-point dressing down really had only one 
> counterpart in face-to-face communication -- where a Superior 
> dresses down a Subordinate, in front of an audience.  The 
> main purpose of such things has nothing to do with the 
> Subordinate that got the dressing down, but everything to do 
> with maintaining the Superior's authority and making the 
> audience quiver in their boots (while thanking God that they 
> weren't getting the chewing out).
> 
> So, unsurprisingly, people who had made tiny errors in 
> understanding or interpretation flipped right out at what 
> they perceived as bucket-loads of nitpicking contempt hurled 
> at them for no particularly good reason, by a person whose 
> authority they didn't recognise.  It was also widely 
> condemned as a way to impose a hierarchical structure on 
> something that had hitherto been working in a rather flat, 
> equalitarian manner.  And it had a chilling effect on whether 
> people who were young, new and trying to learn things were 
> willing to post their current thoughts on a matter.

Thanks for that bit of reply style history! I've only been using email since quoting became a common feature, so I never saw this before and after effect. Have you seen a reduction in this "dressing down" style of reply since top-posting became common?

Peter Shute

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 24 22:34:31 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 14:34:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrubbing html
In-Reply-To: <0fe69f0ffb3c64bb854a1e13c65c7793@cmgw05.eastlink.ca>
References: <0fe69f0ffb3c64bb854a1e13c65c7793@cmgw05.eastlink.ca>
Message-ID: <5511D867.2090105@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2015 01:33 PM, Nancy Cullen wrote:
> Hi, hoping someone can help me with settings. The group that I am
> listkeeper for just recently started
> allowing html but our digest still shows this message at the end of each
> post:
> 
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...


And there will be a link to the HTML escaped part in the list's
archives. This is in the plain text format digest. The MIME format
digest will contain the message as it was sent from the list to regular
members.

There is no way to include HTML as HTML in a plain text digest, and
including it as text is not useful and just makes the digest hard to read.

Unset 'plain' for your list's digest members and set Digest options ->
mime_is_default_digest to MIME, and then those users with MUAs that
don't render the MIME digest appropriately will have to switch back to
plain and not see the HTML except in the archive.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 24 22:41:35 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 14:41:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB86D@nuwvicms2>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB86D@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <5511DA0F.8080102@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2015 02:03 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> 
> But this time I tried unticking the "Plain" option for my subscription. I was surprised to see that they did start coming through as individual attachements, and that I could open them and reply to them "properly". This works in both Outlook and iOS Mail.
> 
> But all I see is an index and a long list of unnamed attachments. If I want to read them, I have to open them one by one to see what's in them, or look at the index numbers and count through the attachements to find the right one. Is this normal? Perhaps this is something to do with convert_html_to_plaintext being set to On? We also have mime_is_default_digest set to Plain.


"Outlook and iOS Mail". Both are notorius, non-compliant MUAs. There are
lots of MUAs that will render a MIME digest in a useful way and still
let you open and reply to individual messages. I don't know about iOS
devices, and MUAs on mobile devices are a sorry lot, but reasonably
recent versions of K9 Mail on Android will at least render a MIME format
digest in a readable way.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Tue Mar 24 22:53:28 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:53:28 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <5511DA0F.8080102@msapiro.net>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB86D@nuwvicms2>
 <5511DA0F.8080102@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB874@nuwvicms2>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> > But this time I tried unticking the "Plain" option for my 
> subscription. I was surprised to see that they did start 
> coming through as individual attachements, and that I could 
> open them and reply to them "properly". This works in both 
> Outlook and iOS Mail.
> > 
> > But all I see is an index and a long list of unnamed 
> attachments. If I want to read them, I have to open them one 
> by one to see what's in them, or look at the index numbers 
> and count through the attachements to find the right one. Is 
> this normal? Perhaps this is something to do with 
> convert_html_to_plaintext being set to On? We also have 
> mime_is_default_digest set to Plain.
> 
> 
> "Outlook and iOS Mail". Both are notorius, non-compliant 
> MUAs. There are lots of MUAs that will render a MIME digest 
> in a useful way and still let you open and reply to 
> individual messages. I don't know about iOS devices, and MUAs 
> on mobile devices are a sorry lot, but reasonably recent 
> versions of K9 Mail on Android will at least render a MIME 
> format digest in a readable way.

So this is normal behaviour for these clients? I wouldn't see anything different if those settings I mentioned were different? I'm still pleasantly surprised that changing the Plain setting lets me access the digest as well as this.

Peter Shute

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 24 23:42:06 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 15:42:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] virtual domain confusion
In-Reply-To: <20150324115511.Horde.gLCt-liyZuy_pHjpolBy7g1@mail.parts-unknown.org>
References: <20150324115511.Horde.gLCt-liyZuy_pHjpolBy7g1@mail.parts-unknown.org>
Message-ID: <5511E83E.1020806@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2015 11:55 AM, David Benfell wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm trying to figure out virtual domains with mailman (and, yes,
> postfix). I have added
> 
> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['humansci.org']
> 
> to my mm_cfg.py


I didn't think to mention in my previous reply, but the above is only
meaningful if you also are already using Mailman/Postfix integration -
i.e. you have

MTA = 'Postfix'

in mm_cfg.py.  Assuming you are doing this, you may also need to add
Mailman's data/virtual-mailman (which will be created along with your
first humansci.org list) to Postfix's virtual_alias_maps in main.cf.

See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 24 23:49:36 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 15:49:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB874@nuwvicms2>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB86D@nuwvicms2>
 <5511DA0F.8080102@msapiro.net>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB874@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <5511EA00.5050005@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2015 02:53 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
>>>
>>> But all I see is an index and a long list of unnamed 
>> attachments. If I want to read them, I have to open them one 
>> by one to see what's in them, or look at the index numbers 
>> and count through the attachements to find the right one. Is 
>> this normal? Perhaps this is something to do with 
>> convert_html_to_plaintext being set to On? We also have 
>> mime_is_default_digest set to Plain.


> So this is normal behaviour for these clients? I wouldn't see anything different if those settings I mentioned were different? I'm still pleasantly surprised that changing the Plain setting lets me access the digest as well as this.


No. This has nothing to do with convert_html_to_plaintext or any other
content filtering settings, and mime_is_default_digest affects only the
plain/MIME digest format choice for new subscribers. Once you are a list
member, you (or the list admin) control your setting and the default is
irrelevant.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Wed Mar 25 00:22:24 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:22:24 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>

Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> > And if html wasn't the default for so many clients.
> 
> Don't get me started!  To the best of my knowledge, there is 
> no unified standard for HTML-ized email.  Microsoft has "Rich 
> Text", Apple has another standard.  Digests can get mucked up 

The default for MS Outlook seems to be HTML rather than Rich Text.

> beyond usability if people use HTML email and it's included 
> in digests.  Hopefully all HTMLized posts to a digested list 
> are multipart/mixed with both a text/plain and a text/html 
> part so the HTML can be nuked before its digested and/or sent 
> out to subscribers.  If not, all bets are off, but such 
> emails are usually spam.

I've seen a plain text section that didn't match the html version (if I'm remembering that incident correctly).
 
> Nonetheless, IMHO HTMLized email the way of the future so 
> we'd better get used to dealing with it.

Yes, whether we like it or not. It's a pity though that such complex HTML is used. Do we really need anything more than the ability to bold and underline? I'd be happy with some of the basic Structured Text formatting commands, which have the advantage that they're still intelligible in plain text.

Peter Shute

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Mar 25 01:06:56 2015
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 00:06:56 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <20150325000656.GN11902@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 10:22:24AM +1100, Peter Shute wrote:
> Do we really need anything more than the ability to bold and
> underline? 

Butterick (and I agree entirely with him here) is against underlining:

    http://practicaltypography.com/underlining.html

> I'd be happy with some of the basic Structured Text
> formatting commands

Generally speaking, if I'm writing a long mail, I'll use Markdown. A
few readers will stylize it; but as observed, it looks fine as is.


-- 
"all the succession and repetition of massed humanity ... Those vile 
 bodies"

From cybergram at eastlink.ca  Wed Mar 25 01:46:01 2015
From: cybergram at eastlink.ca (Nancy Cullen)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:46:01 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrubbing html
In-Reply-To: <5511D867.2090105@msapiro.net>
References: <0fe69f0ffb3c64bb854a1e13c65c7793@cmgw05.eastlink.ca>
 <5511D867.2090105@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <70f11b2bb94ef1b96b38fe8e451805dd@cmgw05.eastlink.ca>

I do have the Digest Options set to MIME, that is why I am confused 
that  we still got the scrubbed message!!

Thanks,
Nancy

At 06:34 PM 3/24/2015, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>On 03/24/2015 01:33 PM, Nancy Cullen wrote:
> > Hi, hoping someone can help me with settings. The group that I am
> > listkeeper for just recently started
> > allowing html but our digest still shows this message at the end of each
> > post:
> >
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>
>
>And there will be a link to the HTML escaped part in the list's
>archives. This is in the plain text format digest. The MIME format
>digest will contain the message as it was sent from the list to regular
>members.
>
>There is no way to include HTML as HTML in a plain text digest, and
>including it as text is not useful and just makes the digest hard to read.
>
>Unset 'plain' for your list's digest members and set Digest options ->
>mime_is_default_digest to MIME, and then those users with MUAs that
>don't render the MIME digest appropriately will have to switch back to
>plain and not see the HTML except in the archive.
>
>--
>Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>------------------------------------------------------
>Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe: 
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/cybergram%40eastlink.ca


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Mar 25 02:36:55 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:36:55 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB86D@nuwvicms2>
References: <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503231047250.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>
 <alpine.LRH.2.11.1503231742400.18148@vetur.ifi.uio.no>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB86D@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <871tkdn9hk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Peter Shute writes:

 > But this time I tried unticking the "Plain" option for my
 > subscription. I was surprised to see that they did start coming
 > through as individual attachements, and that I could open them and
 > reply to them "properly". This works in both Outlook and iOS Mail.
 > 
 > But all I see is an index and a long list of unnamed attachments.

Don't expect Microsoft and Apple MUAs to implement Internet standards
sanely, because they don't.  Those MUAs are equivalent to the large
button cellphones designed for children and the elderly: very easy to
for basic operations (and in the case of these MUAs, with lots of
attention to "groupware" like calendars).

But people who use those MUAs are going to lose when presented with
sophisticated or high-volume mail flows.  If you have a lot of them on
a list, disable digests.  If they need digests, tell them to get a
real MUA or shut up.  We can't do anything about the design principles
Apple and Microsoft use except deplore them (and we could be wrong --
look at the market valuations of those companies ;-).


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Mar 25 02:42:23 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:42:23 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <87zj71luo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Peter Shute writes:

 > I've seen a plain text section that didn't match the html version
 > (if I'm remembering that incident correctly).

Indeed, occasionally you'll see the arrogant "your MUA doesn't deal
with MIME properly" notice in a text/plain MIME part, rather than in
the preamble.

 > > Nonetheless, IMHO HTMLized email the way of the future so 
 > > we'd better get used to dealing with it.
 > 
 > Yes, whether we like it or not. It's a pity though that such
 > complex HTML is used. Do we really need anything more than the
 > ability to bold and underline? I'd be happy with some of the basic
 > Structured Text formatting commands, which have the advantage that
 > they're still intelligible in plain text.

You'd be amazed what teenage girls will do in an HTML email using a
WYSIWYG editor.  The point of the brain damage is like proprietary
drivers in the Linux kernel: trying to provide features that the
competition doesn't, in a non-standard way so that they can't just fix
their editors.

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 25 02:50:42 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 18:50:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scrubbing html
In-Reply-To: <70f11b2bb94ef1b96b38fe8e451805dd@cmgw05.eastlink.ca>
References: <0fe69f0ffb3c64bb854a1e13c65c7793@cmgw05.eastlink.ca>
 <5511D867.2090105@msapiro.net>
 <70f11b2bb94ef1b96b38fe8e451805dd@cmgw05.eastlink.ca>
Message-ID: <55121472.5040804@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2015 05:46 PM, Nancy Cullen wrote:
> I do have the Digest Options set to MIME, that is why I am confused
> that  we still got the scrubbed message!!


Is the digest members 'plain' setting unchecked in the admin Membership
List (or her options Get MIME or Plain Text Digests? set to MIME) or
have you only set Digest options -> mime_is_default_digest to MIME. The
latter setting only affects the default for the former setting for new
members.

The only other possibility is Non-digest options -> scrub_nondigest but
that would affect all messages, not just digests.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From steve at pearwood.info  Wed Mar 25 03:30:38 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 13:30:38 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <20150325023038.GY31862@ando.pearwood.info>

On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 10:22:24AM +1100, Peter Shute wrote:
> Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> > > And if html wasn't the default for so many clients.
> > 
> > Don't get me started!  To the best of my knowledge, there is 
> > no unified standard for HTML-ized email.  Microsoft has "Rich 
> > Text", Apple has another standard.  Digests can get mucked up 
> 
> The default for MS Outlook seems to be HTML rather than Rich Text.

What Outlook, Hotmail etc. call "Rich Text" is in fact HTML, not to be 
confused with Microsoft's interchange Rich Text Format, RTF.

There is an "Enriched Text" standard for email, which supports basic 
formatting without the bulk and security implementations of HTML, but 
alas nobody uses it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enriched_text


-- 
Steve

From fmouse at fmp.com  Wed Mar 25 03:34:16 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:34:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <87zj71luo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
 <87zj71luo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1427250856.33934.37.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Wed, 2015-03-25 at 10:42 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>  > Yes, whether we like it or not. It's a pity though that such
>  > complex HTML is used. Do we really need anything more than the
>  > ability to bold and underline? I'd be happy with some of the basic
>  > Structured Text formatting commands, which have the advantage that
>  > they're still intelligible in plain text.
> 
> You'd be amazed what teenage girls will do in an HTML email using a
> WYSIWYG editor.  The point of the brain damage is like proprietary
> drivers in the Linux kernel: trying to provide features that the
> competition doesn't, in a non-standard way so that they can't just fix
> their editors.

I've always admonished list owners for MM installations that I host at
FMP to avoid HTML-ized email.  It plays hell with digesting, and there's
no single standard for interpreting it so that what the composer of an
HTML-ized post may see in his/her WYSIWYG editor may or may not be what
any particular recipient may see.  It introduces an egregious amount of
bloat into an email, and is a huge bandwidth suck when such an email is
sent out via a list, not to mention that on a list a good fraction of
recipients is pretty much guaranteed to not be able to see what the
composer intended.

As the Internet has evolved, however, I've observed that there's a
steady, unrelenting pressure toward enabling messaging of all sorts,
including email, to handle a richer variety of content options -
bolding, fonts, images, advanced formatting, etc.  HTML appears to be
the best markup standard for this and variations of it have been widely
adopted for this purpose.

One of two things is eventually going to have to happen.  Either people
who design and publish standards for email are going to have to come to
agreement on a proper standard for this kind of content enhancement, and
people who design MUAs and email utilities such as mailing list managers
are going to have to come to grips with these standards and implement
them, or email as a form of communication will eventually go the way of
Usenet, archie, gopher and other extinct (or nearly so) protocols and
become an Internet relic along with all the spam that it makes possible.
Email will be replaced for popular usage with such things as FB
messaging and its descendants, and we'll see a movement away from public
open standards toward proprietary protocols.

Email as a concept is extremely powerful, and how this plays out will be
definitive in how the Internet itself evolves.  Running a small online
web hosting and ESP provision service, I've come to learn that when
people's websites go down, they'll call and bitch about it and implore
you to fix it ASAP, but if their email goes down they'll come looking
for you with a rope.  Human communication is vital, and full
communication on the Internet must eventually involve a visual as well
as a textural component, just as verbal face to face communication
involves body language.

Teenage girls may indeed lead the way, just as we can learn what next
year's high fashion in womens' wear will be by observing what hookers
are wearing this year.  

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Wed Mar 25 04:31:08 2015
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:31:08 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20150325023038.GY31862@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
 <20150325023038.GY31862@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB888@nuwvicms2>

Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > The default for MS Outlook seems to be HTML rather than Rich Text.
> 
> What Outlook, Hotmail etc. call "Rich Text" is in fact HTML, 
> not to be confused with Microsoft's interchange Rich Text Format, RTF.

Outlook offers Plain text, HTML and Rich text as formatting options, so I assume the Rich text they're talking about might actually be RTF.

Peter Shute

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Mar 25 05:14:28 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 13:14:28 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1427250856.33934.37.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
 <87zj71luo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <1427250856.33934.37.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
Message-ID: <87twx9lnmj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > One of two things is eventually going to have to happen.  Either people
 > who design and publish standards for email are going to have to come to
 > agreement on a proper standard for this kind of content
 > enhancement,

We have that, IMO.  It's called HTML5 + <link rel=stylesheet ...>.
Unfortunately, class and id attributes can easily be abused, but even
so it's not hard to be disciplined if you want to be disciplined.

 > and people who design MUAs and email utilities such as mailing list
 > managers are going to have to come to grips with these standards
 > and implement them,

"Aye, there's the rub."  They don't want to.  It involves more thought
and less monopoly power.

 > or email as a form of communication will eventually go the way of
 > Usenet, archie, gopher and other extinct (or nearly so) protocols
 > and become an Internet relic

I'm not so pessimistic.

 > along with all the spam that it makes  possible.

I'm not so optimistic. ;-)


From benfell at parts-unknown.org  Wed Mar 25 07:16:47 2015
From: benfell at parts-unknown.org (David Benfell)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 23:16:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] virtual domain confusion
In-Reply-To: <5511D63C.4010006@msapiro.net>
References: <20150324115511.Horde.gLCt-liyZuy_pHjpolBy7g1@mail.parts-unknown.org>
 <5511D63C.4010006@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20150324231647.Horde.kEJ02EmQaLGbrC4tl0Imvg1@mail.parts-unknown.org>

Quoting Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:

> On 03/24/2015 11:55 AM, David Benfell wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to figure out virtual domains with mailman (and, yes,
>> postfix). I have added
>>
>> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['humansci.org']
>>
>> to my mm_cfg.py
>
>
> You probable also need
>
> add_virtualhost('www.humansci.org', 'humansci.org')

Ah. This helps considerably. The documentation I was finding on that  
declarative wasn't shedding any light for me.
>
> in mm_cfg.py (assuming www.humansci.org is the web domain and
> humansci.org is the email domain).
>
>
> Go to http://www.humansci.org/mailman/create or whatever the appropriate
> path is for Mailman CGIs in your installation with the web domain of
> this host and create the list, or use bin/newlist with
> --urlhost=www.humansci.org.

So that's the option to use even though my mailman installation is on  
mail.parts-unknown.org.

Thanks very much!
-- 
David Benfell <benfell at parts-unknown.org>
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From benfell at parts-unknown.org  Wed Mar 25 07:24:14 2015
From: benfell at parts-unknown.org (David Benfell)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 23:24:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] virtual domain confusion
In-Reply-To: <5511E83E.1020806@msapiro.net>
References: <20150324115511.Horde.gLCt-liyZuy_pHjpolBy7g1@mail.parts-unknown.org>
 <5511E83E.1020806@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20150324232414.Horde.vUTPdLEuyvMPax_8o7WkXA2@mail.parts-unknown.org>

Quoting Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
>
> I didn't think to mention in my previous reply, but the above is only
> meaningful if you also are already using Mailman/Postfix integration -
> i.e. you have
>
> MTA = 'Postfix'
>
> in mm_cfg.py.  Assuming you are doing this, you may also need to add
> Mailman's data/virtual-mailman (which will be created along with your
> first humansci.org list) to Postfix's virtual_alias_maps in main.cf.
>
> See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html>

This, thankfully, is present. Unfortunately, there appear to be some  
boobytraps with Postfix's virtual_alias_maps that are forcing me to  
set this aside for now. My existing set-up hadn't been using them;  
trying to introduce them created some temporary failures and probably  
lost some (but not all) mail. There's simply way too much I don't  
understand with postfix.

Thanks!

-- 
David Benfell <benfell at parts-unknown.org>
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From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it  Wed Mar 25 10:30:38 2015
From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:30:38 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB86E@nuwvicms2>
References: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB86E@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1503251023340.30830@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015, Peter Shute wrote:

> Have you ever been in the situation where you're waiting ...

> Many of us deal with this by creating a message rule that filters the 
> unimportant list mail to a folder to be read at leisure.

I have procmail rules which filter particular e-mails to particular 
folders which I check once per day, but for the mailing list in normal 
operation I prefer to receive a (sort-of-daily) MIME digest in my main 
inbox.

I have two rules which divert mailing list posts to two folders when I am 
on holiday (so I can check the main inbox remotely with less messages): 
one of them is actually linked to /dev/null and is for what I call 
"secondary" lists, the other one collects the posts of the "primary" lists 
to be read when I return.

It is also possible (at least in mailman lists) to set one's own 
subscription to "nomail", but if one has many lists, it's too boring to do 
it (and reset it later) for each list, easier to filter collectively.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not like Firefox >=29 ?  Get Pale Moon !  http://www.palemoon.org

From steve at pearwood.info  Wed Mar 25 11:01:26 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 21:01:26 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB888@nuwvicms2>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
 <20150325023038.GY31862@ando.pearwood.info>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB888@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <20150325100126.GZ31862@ando.pearwood.info>

On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 02:31:08PM +1100, Peter Shute wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > > The default for MS Outlook seems to be HTML rather than Rich Text.
> > 
> > What Outlook, Hotmail etc. call "Rich Text" is in fact HTML, 
> > not to be confused with Microsoft's interchange Rich Text Format, RTF.
> 
> Outlook offers Plain text, HTML and Rich text as formatting options, 
> so I assume the Rich text they're talking about might actually be RTF.

I understand that Outlook's Rich Text Format is actually the old 
win.dat format:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Neutral_Encapsulation_Format

Recent versions of Outlook apparently automatically convert "Rich Text" 
to HTML when you send to "an Internet recipient" (I assume that means a 
non-local user when using Exchange), which might explain why selecting 
Rich Text in Outlook appears to send HTML, and why win.dat attachments 
are now so rare. I don't think I've seen one in the wild for a decade 
or more.

https://support.office.com/en-gb/article/Change-the-message-format-to-HTML-Rich-Text-or-plain-text-de2acb3d-3330-42a1-b02a-5f582fc6e796

If anyone cares enough to look for email sent from Outlook, you can 
probably determine for yourself what it is sending by inspecting the 
MIME type of the attachments, or looking at the raw content of the 
email. If you see lots of formatting commands inside angle brackets 
< ... > it's probably HTML, if they are inside braces { ... } (but they 
won't be ;-) it's probably the Microsoft RTF exchange format, and if you 
see a win.dat or winmail.dat attachment it will be "Outlook Rich Text".


-- 
Steve

From lac at openend.se  Wed Mar 25 11:52:29 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 11:52:29 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: Message from Peter Shute <pshute@nuw.org.au> of "Wed,
 25 Mar 2015 08:34:32 +1100."
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB870@nuwvicms2>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B6DC6.30400@msapiro.net><1427031188.20946.51.camel@thorin>
 <201503241411.t2OEB6wj023887@fido.openend.se><C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB870@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <201503251052.t2PAqTsq026431@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:34:32 +1100, Peter Shute writes:

>Thanks for that bit of reply style history! I've only been using
>email since quoting became a common feature, so I never saw this
>before and after effect. Have you seen a reduction in this "dressing
>down" style of reply since top-posting became common?

>Peter Shute

It is a little hard to know how to interpret the data.  The people who
are top-posting mostly aren't doing the total-demolition rebut everything
you said, line by line, but it is not clear to me that they were doing
so in the first place.  My gut-sense is that, in the places I frequent,
the people doing the top-posting are, for the most part, new additions
to the mailreading community.  Whether the older and more established
part of the community were still doing a lot of this sort of point-by-point
had more to do with whether or not they had identified this
sort of reply as a source of grief in their communities or not. Some
people never figured out that this was one source of the problems they were
facing.  Plus, there is a certain subset of humanity who thrives on such
sort of conflicts, and cannot get enough of it.    And should you happen
to have a mailing list which is only populated by extremely detail-oriented
people, you may find that everybody is most happy with these sorts of
exhaustive rebuttals, without ever seeing anything in the 'public
humiliation' or 'lack of respect' lines.  Your ego cannot get bruised in
such altercations if you never had invested it in the first place.

Laura

From heller at deepsoft.com  Wed Mar 25 11:17:46 2015
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 06:17:46 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <87zj71luo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au> 
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org> 
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net> 
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org> 
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au> 
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com> 
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2> 
 <87zj71luo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <201503251017.t2PAHkIX032252@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

At Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:42:23 +0900 "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

> 
> Peter Shute writes:
> 
>  > I've seen a plain text section that didn't match the html version
>  > (if I'm remembering that incident correctly).
> 
> Indeed, occasionally you'll see the arrogant "your MUA doesn't deal
> with MIME properly" notice in a text/plain MIME part, rather than in
> the preamble.
> 
>  > > Nonetheless, IMHO HTMLized email the way of the future so 
>  > > we'd better get used to dealing with it.
>  > 
>  > Yes, whether we like it or not. It's a pity though that such
>  > complex HTML is used. Do we really need anything more than the
>  > ability to bold and underline? I'd be happy with some of the basic
>  > Structured Text formatting commands, which have the advantage that
>  > they're still intelligible in plain text.
> 
> You'd be amazed what teenage girls will do in an HTML email using a
> WYSIWYG editor.  The point of the brain damage is like proprietary

Give almost *anyone* a big box of Crayolas, and you almost always get an
instant 3 year old...

> drivers in the Linux kernel: trying to provide features that the
> competition doesn't, in a non-standard way so that they can't just fix
> their editors.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>                     

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                          

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Wed Mar 25 13:49:43 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:49:43 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20150325023038.GY31862@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
 <20150325023038.GY31862@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <5512AEE7.2010907@libertytrek.org>

On 3/24/2015 10:30 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> What Outlook, Hotmail etc. call "Rich Text" is in fact HTML, not to be 
> confused with Microsoft's interchange Rich Text Format, RTF.

And Outlook's 'HTML' is badly broken due to its reliance on the Word
HTML rendering engine.

Why MS decided to change from IE to Word for the rendering engine is
inexplicable - unless it was a bran-dead attempt to get people who just
buy Outlook to buy the full Office suite (or at least Word too)...

From fmouse at fmp.com  Wed Mar 25 15:28:31 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 09:28:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <5512AEE7.2010907@libertytrek.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550CE803.3090307@forestfield.org>
 <CD537839-A61C-470F-9FB0-F44B31563523@telus.net>
 <201503212052.43247.rb211@tds.net> <550E241C.2060702@qhpress.org>
 <44810302-38B7-4BF9-A42A-7C9003EBBDBF@nuw.org.au>
 <1426994825.125053.103.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB87B@nuwvicms2>
 <20150325023038.GY31862@ando.pearwood.info>
 <5512AEE7.2010907@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <1427293711.32178.7.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Wed, 2015-03-25 at 08:49 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 3/24/2015 10:30 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> > What Outlook, Hotmail etc. call "Rich Text" is in fact HTML, not to be 
> > confused with Microsoft's interchange Rich Text Format, RTF.
> 
> And Outlook's 'HTML' is badly broken due to its reliance on the Word
> HTML rendering engine.

The Word HTML generator has to  be one of the worst WYSIWYG HTML code
generators ever published.  I've had to do manual repairs on the broken,
bloated, ugly HTML which comes out of MS Word.

> Why MS decided to change from IE to Word for the rendering engine is
> inexplicable - unless it was a bran-dead attempt to get people who just
> buy Outlook to buy the full Office suite (or at least Word too)...

You can bet that the decision, coming from MS, was based on business
considerations rather than any thought of technical merit.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 25 15:41:17 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 07:41:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] virtual domain confusion
In-Reply-To: <20150324232414.Horde.vUTPdLEuyvMPax_8o7WkXA2@mail.parts-unknown.org>
References: <20150324115511.Horde.gLCt-liyZuy_pHjpolBy7g1@mail.parts-unknown.org>
 <5511E83E.1020806@msapiro.net>
 <20150324232414.Horde.vUTPdLEuyvMPax_8o7WkXA2@mail.parts-unknown.org>
Message-ID: <5512C90D.6000803@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2015 11:24 PM, David Benfell wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, there appear to be some
> boobytraps with Postfix's virtual_alias_maps that are forcing me to set
> this aside for now. My existing set-up hadn't been using them; trying to
> introduce them created some temporary failures and probably lost some
> (but not all) mail. There's simply way too much I don't understand with
> postfix.


You may also need to add the domain to Postfix's virtual_alias_domains

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 25 23:53:39 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 15:53:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disable any notifications after user subscibes
 via LISTNAME-join@DOMAIN?
In-Reply-To: <CAL5QDY4Ymiay9a8f3fASL8DxyqHnxB3Y-mAY5MVTNMgm7iQLqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL5QDY6g7+NNc=Jv5rm115CssXQHv1T1L_PvAPXpj8y9zn=prg@mail.gmail.com>	<5511AEFE.40500@msapiro.net>
 <CAL5QDY4Ymiay9a8f3fASL8DxyqHnxB3Y-mAY5MVTNMgm7iQLqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55133C73.6030102@msapiro.net>

On 03/25/2015 03:46 AM, Danijel Domazet wrote:
> Thanks Mark,
> 
> I tried to patch it with:
> self.respond = False
> but that didn't work.


Where did you put that line?


> Then I also tried to add immediate return from send_response, like so:
> 
> def send_response(self):
>         return
>         # Helper
>         def indent(lines):
>             return ['    ' + line for line in lines]
>         # Quick exit for some commands which don't need a response
>         if not self.respond:
>             return
> 
> 
> but that also didn't help.
> I regenerated pyc and pyo files too.


Two things: 1) regenerating .py[co] files is not necessary. Upon import
of a module, python will see the .py is newer and load and compile it
and if it has permission, write the .py[co] file it will use the next time.

2) More importantly, did you restart Mailman after making the changes?
You must do this. The qrunners are persistent processes and will not
reload any previously loaded modules unless Mailman is restarted.

In general, if you change any .py file in Mailman/ or subordinates
except Mailman/Cgi/, you must restart Mailman for the change to be
effective. Mailman/Cgi/ is an exception because what's there is only
used by web CGI processes which are not persistent.

It's also necessary to restart Mailman if you change any templates/
files having to do with the pipermail archive because ArchRunner keeps a
cache of templates.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From benfell at parts-unknown.org  Thu Mar 26 01:42:41 2015
From: benfell at parts-unknown.org (David Benfell)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 17:42:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] virtual domain confusion
In-Reply-To: <5512C90D.6000803@msapiro.net>
References: <20150324115511.Horde.gLCt-liyZuy_pHjpolBy7g1@mail.parts-unknown.org>
 <5511E83E.1020806@msapiro.net>
 <20150324232414.Horde.vUTPdLEuyvMPax_8o7WkXA2@mail.parts-unknown.org>
 <5512C90D.6000803@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20150325174241.Horde.AejOwKa-mjoWxxqIWBKwEA3@mail.parts-unknown.org>

Quoting Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:

> On 03/24/2015 11:24 PM, David Benfell wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately, there appear to be some
>> boobytraps with Postfix's virtual_alias_maps that are forcing me to set
>> this aside for now. My existing set-up hadn't been using them; trying to
>> introduce them created some temporary failures and probably lost some
>> (but not all) mail. There's simply way too much I don't understand with
>> postfix.
>
>
> You may also need to add the domain to Postfix's virtual_alias_domains

It appears that for my purposes, I don't need to mess with virtual  
aliases at all.

As near as I can tell mailman is perfectly happy to accept the  
alternative domain name in the general configuration screen and will  
send emails out using that domain. And of course the alias  
declarations are not domain specific (unless one wanders into virtual  
alias domains). That's *really* all I needed.

Thanks!


-- 
David Benfell <benfell at parts-unknown.org>
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From marco at stoecker-family.de  Thu Mar 26 11:11:28 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:11:28 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_members
Message-ID: <5513DB50.9050101@stoecker-family.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi

I have several mailing lists on a Mailman server which are
synchronized with a database via a cronjob.

Now my question: is it possible to not only synchronize the e-mail
adresses but also the names?

BR
Marco
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From patrick.casey at cantab.net  Wed Mar 25 22:08:39 2015
From: patrick.casey at cantab.net (Paddy)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 22:08:39 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unwanted default entry in field "Your email
	address" in welcoming message
Message-ID: <019301d0673f$de45a090$9ad0e1b0$@casey@cantab.net>

I am setting up a mailing list. When I add a subscriber by using the "Mass
subscription" facility that subscriber receives a welcoming mail. That mail
contains a paragraph "Subscribing to XY", "XY" being the name of the list.
Within that paragraph there is a field "Your email address" and this field
already contains a name (not an email address) which happens to be a
username that I use in a related activity. I've no idea where Mailman got it
from and why it inserted it as a default into this email field. How do I
restore this field to blank as default in the welcoming page ?

 

Patrick


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 26 15:27:34 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 07:27:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_members
In-Reply-To: <5513DB50.9050101@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5513DB50.9050101@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <55141756.9030203@msapiro.net>

On 03/26/2015 03:11 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> I have several mailing lists on a Mailman server which are
> synchronized with a database via a cronjob.
> 
> Now my question: is it possible to not only synchronize the e-mail
> adresses but also the names?


Just provide the name along with the email address in the list you're
syncing with. E.g.,

John Doe <j.doe at example.com>

See <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030562> for other acceptable formats. Note
that this will add new members along with their real names, but real
names for existing members will not be changed even if the existing real
name is empty.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 26 15:44:55 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 07:44:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unwanted default entry in field "Your email
 address" in welcoming message
In-Reply-To: <019301d0673f$de45a090$9ad0e1b0$@casey@cantab.net>
References: <019301d0673f$de45a090$9ad0e1b0$@casey@cantab.net>
Message-ID: <55141B67.5050706@msapiro.net>

On 03/25/2015 02:08 PM, Paddy wrote:
> I am setting up a mailing list. When I add a subscriber by using the "Mass
> subscription" facility that subscriber receives a welcoming mail. That mail
> contains a paragraph "Subscribing to XY", "XY" being the name of the list.
> Within that paragraph there is a field "Your email address" and this field
> already contains a name (not an email address) which happens to be a
> username that I use in a related activity. I've no idea where Mailman got it
> from and why it inserted it as a default into this email field. How do I
> restore this field to blank as default in the welcoming page ?


The default template for the list welcome email does not contain any
"Subscribing to ..." paragraph.

Check the

List-specific text prepended to new-subscriber welcome message
(Details for welcome_msg)

box on the list's General Options page, and go to the "Edit the public
HTML pages and text files" link on the upper right of the list's admin
pages and check the "Welcome email text file".

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 26 15:50:49 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 07:50:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unwanted default entry in field "Your email
 address" in welcoming message
In-Reply-To: <019301d0673f$de45a090$9ad0e1b0$@casey@cantab.net>
References: <019301d0673f$de45a090$9ad0e1b0$@casey@cantab.net>
Message-ID: <55141CC9.8020509@msapiro.net>

On 03/25/2015 02:08 PM, Paddy wrote:
> I am setting up a mailing list. When I add a subscriber by using the "Mass
> subscription" facility that subscriber receives a welcoming mail. That mail
> contains a paragraph "Subscribing to XY", "XY" being the name of the list.
> Within that paragraph there is a field "Your email address" and this field
> already contains a name (not an email address) which happens to be a
> username that I use in a related activity.


I responded about the list welcome message, but it seems you may really
be talking about the "listinfo" web page linked from the welcome email.

If what you are talking about is the email address field of the
subscribe form on that page, it is your web browser that's entering the
data in that field.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 27 18:47:11 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:47:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disable any notifications after user subscibes
 via LISTNAME-join@DOMAIN?
In-Reply-To: <CAL5QDY4UBxXiGGNeUaNmUDehL0L9GFR3py_9LKhR=TMfFLHK9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL5QDY6g7+NNc=Jv5rm115CssXQHv1T1L_PvAPXpj8y9zn=prg@mail.gmail.com>	<5511AEFE.40500@msapiro.net>	<CAL5QDY4Ymiay9a8f3fASL8DxyqHnxB3Y-mAY5MVTNMgm7iQLqA@mail.gmail.com>	<55133411.3000704@msapiro.net>
 <CAL5QDY4UBxXiGGNeUaNmUDehL0L9GFR3py_9LKhR=TMfFLHK9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5515979F.40705@msapiro.net>

On 03/27/2015 03:22 AM, Danijel Domazet wrote:

(Please keep threads on the list unless there is some privacy reason not
to.)
> 
> One more question related to the same issue.
> 
> Here is the code I added to avoid auto reply:
> 
> field = msg.get('to', '')
>         if 'mylist-join' in field:
>             self.respond = False
> 
> I would like to check 'bcc' field instead of 'to', like so:
> field = msg.get('bcc', '')
> But that seems not to work.


Because Bcc: by definition does not appear in the headers of delivered mail.

The problem is you are testing the wrong thing. Instead of looking at
message headers, you should be looking for 'tojoin' in the msgdata which
is set when the mail is initially received be Mailman.

Instead of what you've done, I would do

--- Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py	2015-03-01 16:35:02 +0000
+++ Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py	2015-03-27 17:42:10 +0000
@@ -276,6 +276,8 @@
                 ret = res.process()
             elif msgdata.get('tojoin'):
                 ret = res.do_command('join')
+                # Don't send response to -join/-subscribe mail
+                res.respond = False.
             elif msgdata.get('toleave'):
                 ret = res.do_command('leave')
             elif msgdata.get('toconfirm'):


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 27 22:42:44 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 14:42:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security patch and Mailman 2.1.20 to be released on
	31 March
Message-ID: <5515CED4.30505@msapiro.net>

A security vulnerability in Mailman has been found and fixed. It has
been assigned CVE-2015-2775. The details of this vulnerability and fix
will be announced next Tuesday, 31 March 2015, at which time both a
patch for this specific vulnerability and Mailman 2.1.20 will be released.

In addition to this security fix, Mailman 2.1.20 includes a new feature
allowing a list owner to change a list member's address through the
admin Membership Management... Section, and a couple of minor bug fixes.

The new feature is a fix for <https://launchpad.net/bugs/266809>.

The bugs fixed are: <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1426825>,
<https://launchpad.net/bugs/1426829> and
<https://launchpad.net/bugs/1427389>.

The security vulnerability, the details of which are currently private,
is <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1437145>.

The security vulnerability only affects those installations which use
Exim, Postfix's postfix_to_mailman.py or similar programmatic (not
aliases) MTA delivery to Mailman, and have untrusted local users on the
Mailman server.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From roland.miyamoto at gmx.net  Sat Mar 28 13:24:25 2015
From: roland.miyamoto at gmx.net (Roland Miyamoto)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:24:25 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security patch and Mailman 2.1.20 to be
	released on 31 March
In-Reply-To: <55169A19.2090300@gmx.net>
References: <55169A19.2090300@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <55169D79.8010200@gmx.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Thank you, Mark,

For this anouncement.
Does the vulnerabilitiy also affect older Mailman releases, like
2.1.15, e.g.?
If so, how do I make sure to incorporate the fix soon after next
Tuesday, when the world will learn about the details?

I am running Mailman 2.1.15 under Debian 7.
Will the fix be included in the usual repository updates?

  Best wishes

    Roland

On 27/03/15 22:42, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> A security vulnerability in Mailman has been found and fixed. It 
> has been assigned CVE-2015-2775.
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From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar 28 17:29:35 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 09:29:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security patch and Mailman 2.1.20 to be
 released on 31 March
In-Reply-To: <55169D79.8010200@gmx.net>
References: <55169A19.2090300@gmx.net> <55169D79.8010200@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5516D6EF.8060004@msapiro.net>

On 03/28/2015 05:24 AM, Roland Miyamoto wrote:
> Thank you, Mark,
> 
> For this anouncement.
> Does the vulnerabilitiy also affect older Mailman releases, like
> 2.1.15, e.g.?


Yes, but the actual number of sites that are vulnerable is probably
small. More information will be available on Tuesday, but I think only
one class of sites which doesn't include you is primarily vulnerable.


> If so, how do I make sure to incorporate the fix soon after next
> Tuesday, when the world will learn about the details?
> 
> I am running Mailman 2.1.15 under Debian 7.
> Will the fix be included in the usual repository updates?


The fix will be in Mailman 2.1.20 which will be available in all the
usual upstream places. It will also be in the official Mailman 2.1
branch at <https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1>.

Its inclusion in Debian and other downstream packages is beyond my
control, and I can't say when this might occur.

The actual fix, exclusive of comments, adds 3 lines of code to one place
in one module. This patch will be included in the announcement I post on
Tuesday, so you can just apply it and restart Mailman. It will apply
with at most a line number offset and work with any Mailman version
2.1.11 or newer.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From brad at fineby.me.uk  Sat Mar 28 17:55:09 2015
From: brad at fineby.me.uk (Brad Rogers)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 16:55:09 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security patch and Mailman 2.1.20 to be
 released on 31 March
In-Reply-To: <55169D79.8010200@gmx.net>
References: <55169A19.2090300@gmx.net>
	<55169D79.8010200@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20150328165509.34e35fc6@abydos.stargate.org.uk>

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:24:25 +0100
Roland Miyamoto <roland.miyamoto at gmx.net> wrote:

Hello Roland,

>I am running Mailman 2.1.15 under Debian 7.
>Will the fix be included in the usual repository updates?

I can't  speak as an authority on either Mailman of Debian, only as a
user, but security updates are usually ported to Debian stable
(currently Wheezy/7) fairly quickly.

The Debian Security Announcement mailing list details updates/patches.
It's a fairly low traffic, announcement only list:
debian-security-announce-request at lists.debian.org?subject=subscribe

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Bet you thought you knew what I was about
Problem - Sex Pistols
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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 31 16:27:35 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 07:27:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security patch and Mailman 2.1.20 to be
	released on 31 March
In-Reply-To: <5515CED4.30505@msapiro.net>
References: <5515CED4.30505@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <551AAED7.4030808@msapiro.net>

On 03/27/2015 02:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> A security vulnerability in Mailman has been found and fixed. It has
> been assigned CVE-2015-2775. The details of this vulnerability and fix
> will be announced next Tuesday, 31 March 2015, at which time both a
> patch for this specific vulnerability and Mailman 2.1.20 will be released.


Here is more information. The report at
<https://launchpad.net/bugs/1437145> is now public.

Your installation is only vulnerable if both of the following are true.

1) Delivery of list mail to mailman from the MTA uses some kind of
programmatic method as opposed to fixed aliases. This includes Exim with
the recommended transport, Postfix with the postfix_to_mailman.py
transport and qmail with the qmail-to-mailman.py transport.

2) Untrusted users are able to create files on the Mailman server that
are accessible to Mailman. These can be in a user's home directory or
/tmp or anywhere that can be accessed via a path like
/path/to/mailman/lists/../../../../../../../../path/to/directory.

Installations most at risk likely include hosting services using cPanel
with untrusted users. Outside of those, the majority of sites are
probably not vulnerable.

This vulnerability is fixed by the patch in the attached file. This
patch will apply with at most a line number offset to the Utils.py
module in any Mailman 2.1.x version that doesn't already have it. If
your Mailman version is 2.1.11 or later, just apply the patch to
Mailman/Utils.py and restart Mailman. For versions older than 2.1.11,
the setting mm_cfg.ACCEPTABLE_LISTNAME_CHARACTERS referenced in the
patch doesn't exist, so you also need to add

ACCEPTABLE_LISTNAME_CHARACTERS = '[-+_.=a-z0-9]'

to Defaults.py or mm_cfg.py before restarting Mailman.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-------------- next part --------------
=== modified file 'Mailman/Utils.py'
--- Mailman/Utils.py	2015-01-23 23:50:47 +0000
+++ Mailman/Utils.py	2015-03-27 18:14:06 +0000
@@ -100,6 +100,12 @@
     #
     # The former two are for 2.1alpha3 and beyond, while the latter two are
     # for all earlier versions.
+    #
+    # But first ensure the list name doesn't contain a path traversal
+    # attack.
+    if len(re.sub(mm_cfg.ACCEPTABLE_LISTNAME_CHARACTERS, '', listname)) > 0:
+        syslog('mischief', 'Hostile listname: %s', listname)
+        return False
     basepath = Site.get_listpath(listname)
     for ext in ('.pck', '.pck.last', '.db', '.db.last'):
         dbfile = os.path.join(basepath, 'config' + ext)


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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 31 20:11:45 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:11:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.20 release.
Message-ID: <551AE361.3020401@msapiro.net>

I am pleased to announce the release Mailman 2.1.20.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.7 is recommended.

This release has one new feature, a few bug fixes, an update to the
Polish message catalog and a fix for a recently discovered security
vulnerability.

See the attached README for more details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman
http://mailman.sourceforge.net/

Mailman 2.1.20 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-------------- next part --------------
2.1.20 (31-Mar-2015)

  Security

    - A path traversal vulnerability has been discovered and fixed.  This
      vulnerability is only exploitable by a local user on a Mailman server
      where the suggested Exim transport, the Postfix postfix_to_mailman.py
      transport or some other programmatic MTA delivery not using aliases
      is employed.  CVE-2015-2775  (LP: #1437145)

  New Features

    - There is a new Address Change sub-section in the web admin Membership
      Management section to allow a list admin to change a list member's
      address in one step rather than adding the new address, copying settings
      and deleting the old address.  (LP: #266809)

  i18n
 
    - The Russian translation has been updated by Danil Smirnov.

    - The Polish translation has been updated by Stefan Plewako.
 
  Bug fixes and other patches

    - A LookupError in SpamDetect on a message with RFC 2047 encoded headers
      in an unknown character set is fixed.  (LP: #1427389)

    - Fixed a bug in CommandRunner that could process the second word of a
      body line as a command word and a case sensitivity in commands in
      Subject: with an Re: prefix.  (LP: #1426829)

    - Fixed a bug in CommandRunner that threw an uncaught KeyError if
      the input to the list-request address contained a command word
      terminated by a period.  (LP: #1426825)

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From deansuhr at deansuhr.us  Tue Mar 31 20:28:53 2015
From: deansuhr at deansuhr.us (Dean Suhr)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:28:53 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list ...
	maybe not right, but how we want to serve our community
In-Reply-To: <550B6ACA.8050300@msapiro.net>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB846@nuwvicms2>
 <550B6ACA.8050300@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5454E14D-26AF-44F3-9F48-FF229E5AAF61@deansuhr.us>

Hi Mark,

Our subscriber dynamic on our discussion lists is slightly different.  While Mailman may eliminate the duplicate email sends to folks who have their messages replied to by readers, is important that we achieve two things with our list messages:

1) We want all replies to go to the list, however, we do not want the sender?s email disclosed (this are medical discussion lists and we need to preserve some basic contact privacy)
2) We DO want the sender?s name to be visible as part of the FROM since the senders may not include their name in the body of their message.

What we would like is:
a) DMARC compliance and munging
b) the From to read "sender via list name", i.e. ?Dean Suhr - via Mailman-Users? for this list
c) no matter if the user clicks REPLY or REPLY-ALL the reply goes only to the list

We want to be able to provide a controlled experience for all participants without having to change their personal behaviors.   Prior to DMARC we were able to provide this capability (with sender name as from and all replies to the list) for our users. 

I am struggling with v2.1.18-1 to establish this configuration.  If this option combination is not available can you point me to where in the code I might have to manually tweak?

Thanks,

Dean

> On Mar 19, 2015, at 20:33, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
> On 03/19/2015 04:50 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
>> Lindsay Haisley wrote:
>> 
>>> It is polite, though, to make sure you're not sending 
>>> duplicate posts to people by doing a "Reply to All" which 
>>> will probably send a copy of your reply to _both_ the list 
>>> and the original poster.  I think that this is a common point 
>>> of confusion.  "All" in this context doesn't mean "all the 
>>> list subscribers", but "all the addresses in the headers."
>> 
>> In all the mail clients I use, I get a choice of Reply, which for this list will reply only to the original sender, or Reply All, which sends it to the original sender and the list. If I want to reply just to the list, I have to hit Reply All and then delete the original sender's address. I usually don't bother, and I assumed most people don't. Has that been annoying people? I thought mailman was smart enough not to send another copy to people in the Cc list.
> 
> 
> On Mailman lists at least it is a user option to receive or not receive
> two copies of list posts in which they are also directly addressed.
> Thus, I feel it is never necessary to remove the poster's address from a
> 'reply all'. In fact there is at least one good reason not to. Namely,
> the poster might be a digest member or even on some lists, a non-member,
> and 'reply all' gets them a copy now as opposed to in the next digest or
> never.
> 
> That said, I tend to use 'reply list' when it's available.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/deansuhr%40deansuhr.us


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 31 21:27:51 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:27:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list ...
 maybe not right, but how we want to serve our community
In-Reply-To: <5454E14D-26AF-44F3-9F48-FF229E5AAF61@deansuhr.us>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <550B45F0.1010401@tuunq.com> <1426805248.64327.25.camel@pudina.fmp.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E17001925AB846@nuwvicms2>
 <550B6ACA.8050300@msapiro.net>
 <5454E14D-26AF-44F3-9F48-FF229E5AAF61@deansuhr.us>
Message-ID: <551AF537.9010005@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2015 11:28 AM, Dean Suhr wrote:
> 
> 1) We want all replies to go to the list, however, we do not want the sender?s email disclosed (this are medical discussion lists and we need to preserve some basic contact privacy)

OK


> 2) We DO want the sender?s name to be visible as part of the FROM since the senders may not include their name in the body of their message.
> 
> What we would like is:
> a) DMARC compliance and munging
> b) the From to read "sender via list name", i.e. ?Dean Suhr - via Mailman-Users? for this list
> c) no matter if the user clicks REPLY or REPLY-ALL the reply goes only to the list
> 
> We want to be able to provide a controlled experience for all participants without having to change their personal behaviors.   Prior to DMARC we were able to provide this capability (with sender name as from and all replies to the list) for our users. 


I don't understand how you were suppressing the sender's email address.
Are you sure it wasn't there and just nut displayed by the email client
you were using to read the mail. I.e. MS Outlook and several other mail
clients, even K9 mail on my android phone, will by default only show the
display name and not the address if there is a display name in From:


> I am struggling with v2.1.18-1 to establish this configuration.  If this option combination is not available can you point me to where in the code I might have to manually tweak?


If on General Options, you set

from_is_list = Munge From
first_strip_reply_to = Yes
reply_goes_to_list = This list

Also to prevent Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
dmarc_moderation_action from superceding from_is_list on posts from
yahoo.com or aol.com, that setting should either be Accept or Munge From.

This will almost get you there, but the original From: address will be
added to the Reply-To: header in delivered posts. This was changed in
2.1.19 to add the address to Cc: instead per
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1407098>, but it will be there
in one of those headers so that reply-all will explicitly include the
original From:.

To suppress this addition of the original From: to some header would
require code modification or setting anonymous_list = Yes, but setting
anonymous_list = Yes will completely hide the posters name.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 21:56:21 2015
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 22:56:21 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.20 release.
In-Reply-To: <551AE361.3020401@msapiro.net>
References: <551AE361.3020401@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WNpEEKggDKHYxGt_i_4NHTUPSSCRciavFPhRqksL91O0w@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 March 2015 at 21:11, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> I am pleased to announce the release Mailman 2.1.20.
>
> Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.7 is recommended.
>
> This release has one new feature, a few bug fixes, an update to the
> Polish message catalog and a fix for a recently discovered security
> vulnerability.
>
> See the attached README for more details.
>
> Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
> e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
> SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.
>
> For more information, please see:
>
> http://www.list.org
> http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman
> http://mailman.sourceforge.net/
>
> Mailman 2.1.20 can be downloaded from
>
> https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
> http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>


Hi Mark,

Thank you for all the work towards giving us this new version.

Are there corresponding htdig and indexing patch for it?


-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
"I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler."

From roland.miyamoto at gmx.net  Tue Mar 31 21:54:20 2015
From: roland.miyamoto at gmx.net (Roland Miyamoto)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 21:54:20 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wrong path to Debian logo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.36.1427540403.22103.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.36.1427540403.22103.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <551AFB6C.8010206@gmx.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello Mailman developers,

There is a small bug I noticed when configuring Mailman on my Server
with some unusual URL paths.
The four images at the bottom of the Mailman page

mailman.jpg
PythonPowered.png
gnu-head-tiny.jpg
debianpowered.png

all reside in the same Linux directory /usr/share/images/mailman/
The first three are addressed via the path variable IMAGE_LOGOS.
Only the fourth image has the fixed address

  /images/mailman/debianpowered.png

independently of how I define the variable IMAGE_LOGOS in mm_cfg.py

I worked around this bug by adding

  Alias /images/mailman/ /usr/share/images/mailman/

to my /etc/apache2/conf.d/mailman.conf

Sorry, I do not know how to properly report bugs nor whether this is
of any interest at all.

  Anyways, thanks for all the good work!

    Roland
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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 31 22:23:29 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 13:23:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wrong path to Debian logo
In-Reply-To: <551AFB6C.8010206@gmx.net>
References: <mailman.36.1427540403.22103.mailman-users@python.org>
 <551AFB6C.8010206@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <551B0241.20701@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2015 12:54 PM, Roland Miyamoto wrote:
> 
> There is a small bug I noticed when configuring Mailman on my Server
> with some unusual URL paths.
> The four images at the bottom of the Mailman page
> 
> mailman.jpg
> PythonPowered.png
> gnu-head-tiny.jpg
> debianpowered.png
> 
> all reside in the same Linux directory /usr/share/images/mailman/
> The first three are addressed via the path variable IMAGE_LOGOS.
> Only the fourth image has the fixed address
> 
>   /images/mailman/debianpowered.png
> 
> independently of how I define the variable IMAGE_LOGOS in mm_cfg.py


This is a Debian packaging issue. If it were an issue with Mailman per
se instead of with the Debian package, you could report it at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>, but as it is a Debian
packaging issue reporting info is at
<https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 31 22:28:08 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 13:28:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re:  Mailman 2.1.20 release.
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WNpEEKggDKHYxGt_i_4NHTUPSSCRciavFPhRqksL91O0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <551AE361.3020401@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WNpEEKggDKHYxGt_i_4NHTUPSSCRciavFPhRqksL91O0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <551B0358.8050607@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2015 12:56 PM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> 
> Are there corresponding htdig and indexing patch for it?


Yes. See <http://www.msapiro.net/mm/> and
<http://www.msapiro.net/mm/_README>.

The 2.1.20 patch has essentially no change from 2.1.19.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 22:49:42 2015
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 23:49:42 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re:  Mailman 2.1.20 release.
In-Reply-To: <551B0358.8050607@msapiro.net>
References: <551AE361.3020401@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WNpEEKggDKHYxGt_i_4NHTUPSSCRciavFPhRqksL91O0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <551B0358.8050607@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WP5wdjuOdaJGyF1GqyusF_rj80FQX=pQ7B7D_Q3R9zFtg@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 March 2015 at 23:28, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 03/31/2015 12:56 PM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> >
> > Are there corresponding htdig and indexing patch for it?
>
>
> Yes. See <http://www.msapiro.net/mm/> and
> <http://www.msapiro.net/mm/_README>.
>
> The 2.1.20 patch has essentially no change from 2.1.19.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

Just wondering if I am missing something here ..

(23:48:22 <~/Tools/Mailman/2.1.20>) 0 $ cd mailman-2.1.20
(23:48:27 <~/Tools/Mailman/2.1.20/mailman-2.1.20>) 0 $ patch <
../index_htdig.patch.2.1.20
Hmm...  Looks like a unified diff to me...
The text leading up to this was:
--------------------------
|diff -ruP 2.1.20/bin/blow_away_htdig 2.1.20p/bin/blow_away_htdig
|--- 2.1.20/bin/blow_away_htdig 1969-12-31 16:00:00.000000000 -0800
|+++ 2.1.20p/bin/blow_away_htdig        2015-03-31 11:24:52.000000000 -0700
--------------------------
(Creating file blow_away_htdig...)
Patching file blow_away_htdig using Plan A...
Hunk #1 succeeded at 1.
Hmm...  The next patch looks like a unified diff to me...
The text leading up to this was:
--------------------------
|diff -ruP 2.1.20/bin/check_perms 2.1.20p/bin/check_perms
|--- 2.1.20/bin/check_perms     2015-03-31 11:22:52.000000000 -0700
|+++ 2.1.20p/bin/check_perms    2015-03-31 11:24:52.000000000 -0700
--------------------------
File to patch: <================================================= Stops
here..





-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
"I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler."

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 31 23:05:57 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:05:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.20 release.
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WP5wdjuOdaJGyF1GqyusF_rj80FQX=pQ7B7D_Q3R9zFtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <551AE361.3020401@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WNpEEKggDKHYxGt_i_4NHTUPSSCRciavFPhRqksL91O0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <551B0358.8050607@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WP5wdjuOdaJGyF1GqyusF_rj80FQX=pQ7B7D_Q3R9zFtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <551B0C35.6070603@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2015 01:49 PM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> 
> Just wondering if I am missing something here ..
> 
> (23:48:22 <~/Tools/Mailman/2.1.20>) 0 $ cd mailman-2.1.20
> (23:48:27 <~/Tools/Mailman/2.1.20/mailman-2.1.20>) 0 $ patch < ../index_htdig.patch.2.1.20


The proper command is 'patch -p1 < ../index_htdig.patch.2.1.20'

See 'man patch' for more info.


> Hmm...  Looks like a unified diff to me...
> The text leading up to this was:
> --------------------------
> |diff -ruP 2.1.20/bin/blow_away_htdig 2.1.20p/bin/blow_away_htdig
> |--- 2.1.20/bin/blow_away_htdig 1969-12-31 16:00:00.000000000 -0800
> |+++ 2.1.20p/bin/blow_away_htdig        2015-03-31 11:24:52.000000000 -0700
> --------------------------
> (Creating file blow_away_htdig...)
> Patching file blow_away_htdig using Plan A...
> Hunk #1 succeeded at 1.


You probably want to 'rm blow_away_htdig' before trying again.


> Hmm...  The next patch looks like a unified diff to me...
> The text leading up to this was:
> --------------------------
> |diff -ruP 2.1.20/bin/check_perms 2.1.20p/bin/check_perms
> |--- 2.1.20/bin/check_perms     2015-03-31 11:22:52.000000000 -0700
> |+++ 2.1.20p/bin/check_perms    2015-03-31 11:24:52.000000000 -0700
> --------------------------
> File to patch: <================================================= Stops
> here..


because it couldn't find the file to patch because of the missing '-p1'

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From roland.miyamoto at gmx.net  Tue Mar 31 23:33:52 2015
From: roland.miyamoto at gmx.net (Roland Miyamoto)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 23:33:52 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wrong path to Debian logo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6.1427835966.12924.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.6.1427835966.12924.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <551B12C0.8060403@gmx.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Mark.

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> This is a Debian packaging issue. If it were an issue with Mailman
> per

I do not understand.
I set

  IMAGE_LOGOS         = '/mailman/images/'

in mm_cfg.py
Then the html returned by http://mydom.ain/mailman/listinfo
reads

<table WIDTH="100%" BORDER="0">
  <tr>
    <td><a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/index.html"><img
src="/mailman/images/mailman.jpg" alt="Delivered by Mailman"
border="0" /><br>version 2.1.15</a></td>
    <td><a href="http://www.python.org/"><img
src="/mailman/images/PythonPowered.png" alt="Python Powered"
border="0" /></a></td>
    <td><a href="http://www.gnu.org/"><img
src="/mailman/images/gnu-head-tiny.jpg" alt="GNU's Not Unix"
border="0" /></a></td>
    <td><a href="http://www.debian.org/"><img
src="/images/mailman/debianpowered.png" alt="Debian Powered"
border="0" /></a></td>
  </tr>
</table>

at the bottom. Note how the path is different for the last image

  /images/mailman/debianpowered.png

instead of /mailman/images/debianpowered.png as is for the other three
images.
I do not see how packaging can influence the html produced by
Mailman's python code.

  Best wishes

    Roland
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From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Fri Mar 20 14:33:31 2015
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:33:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list
In-Reply-To: <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org>
References: <2E21503A-6237-47FF-8915-FA91CD9AAF61@supercoders.com.au>
 <20150319175307.3167a9e8@limelight.wooz.org>
 <550B74AF.30407@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <550C21AB.5060003@libertytrek.org>

On 3/19/2015 9:15 PM, Richard Damon <Richard at Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> Another reason that I have been told by some people that they want 
> people to top post is that their client will show in the message list a 
> summary of the first line of the message, and they want that to be the 
> new content to see if it is worth reading,

And that is actually one of the few reasonable reasons that I've ever
seen supporting the argument...