From hedy.dargere at spheerys.fr  Fri Apr  1 10:53:56 2016
From: hedy.dargere at spheerys.fr (=?UTF-8?Q?Hedy_Darg=c3=a8re?=)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 16:53:56 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Too much rejects from gmail.com recipient
Message-ID: <56FE8B84.7000903@spheerys.fr>

Hi,

A user on one of my hosted mailing lists just received a message which
said he must confirm is registration, after too much rejects, before
cancellation of his registration.
He has a gmail mailbox (I don't know if it's matter).
And maybe it is not alone :(

I have send email from my server to my personnal gmail mailbox with
succes, and a test on www.mail-tester.com give my 8/10
You can see the result here : http://www.mail-tester.com/web-KUfidY

I don't have DKIM authentification on the mailman server, and I don't
know if it's possible to set it up.

Else, I don't have any idea how to solve the problem :(

Hedy

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr  1 11:55:35 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 08:55:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Too much rejects from gmail.com recipient
In-Reply-To: <56FE8B84.7000903@spheerys.fr>
References: <56FE8B84.7000903@spheerys.fr>
Message-ID: <56FE99F7.6050406@msapiro.net>

On 04/01/2016 07:53 AM, Hedy Darg?re wrote:
> 
> A user on one of my hosted mailing lists just received a message which
> said he must confirm is registration, after too much rejects, before
> cancellation of his registration.
> He has a gmail mailbox (I don't know if it's matter).
> And maybe it is not alone :(


Are you saying this was a notice that his subscription was disabled due
to bounces. Check Mailman's bounce log for information (grep the bounce
logs for the users address).

If it is a warning because his subscription was disabled by bounce,
check your MTA logs for possible bounce reasons.

Also, it is good to turn on the bounce processing notices, particularly
bounce_notify_owner_on_disable, so that thi lis owner gets a copy of the
bounce DSN that caused the disable.


> I don't have DKIM authentification on the mailman server, and I don't
> know if it's possible to set it up.


It is possible. I have set up opendkim to sign list mail on at least
three servers. Get opendkim from <http://www.opendkim.org/> or your
package manager. The README in the distribution has a section on
configuring for mailing lists.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From arpepper at uwaterloo.ca  Fri Apr  1 14:20:23 2016
From: arpepper at uwaterloo.ca (Adrian Pepper)
Date: Fri,  1 Apr 2016 14:20:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Allow discard-and-forward for spam filters?
Message-ID: <20160401182023.953AB18B8603@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>

> From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 17:42:18 -0700
> 
> On 3/30/16 5:49 AM, Adrian Pepper wrote:
> > 
> > However, in
> > https://python.org/mailman/admin/mailman-users/privacy/spam
> > you can only Dicard or Hold.
> > (Complete list Defer, Hold, Reject, Discard, Accept).
> > 
> > It would be nice if for each filter rule individually you
> > could choose "discard and forward to moderator".
> > 
> > Has that actually been implemented in subsequent versions of Mailman 2,
> > i.e. between 2.1.12 and 2.1.21 ?
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> It is an interesting idea. The problem is that unless someone submits a
> patch, I'm the one that would end up doing it, and even with a patch,
> I'd need to audit it. I'm starting to get more involved in MM 3, and as
> such, have less time for MM 2.1 "nice to haves". You can always submit a
> request for MM 2.1 at <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug>.
> 
> I don't know what your mods "for recognizing alternative email
> addresses" are, but there is since MM 2.1.19 and equivalent_domains list
> attribute to, e.g., say that @mac.com, @me.com and @icloud.com are all
> the same for list membership purposes.

It is about user name equivalences, and, even if it could be made
not specific to here, my hunch is the mods are specific to here, with
built-in database lookup assumptions and stuff.  I didn't really need
to say what the local mods are for, I was just indicating an additional
possible reason for inertia.

> > Now certainly we wouldn't want [or would appreciate the choice
> > not] to "forward to moderator" all discards on the /spam page.
> > And, really, the "does this fail the membership (filter) requirements"
> > is something you'd like to be able to determine in the spam filters.
> > (And simply discard those, perhaps forwarding if they are not too
> > spammy).  (Because really really we'd like to "hold" slightly spammy
> > messages which meet membership requirements, but discard-and-forward
> > the others, but discarding-and-forwarding-to-moderator all would be
> > reasonable compromise).
> 
> 
> The easiest way for me to implement this would simply be to add a
> "Discard and Forward" action to the other choices. Adding a Forward
> checkbox that would apply to any selected action is certainly more
> flexible, but more complicated to implement.

Yes, that's what I assumed might be done unless it really turned out to
be easier to make it a separate checkbox.  With the separate checkbox
you could end up with the silliness of "hold and forward to moderator".

Thanks for the reply, I'll try to find time to send my suggestion to
https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug


Adrian.



From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr  1 14:42:58 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 11:42:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Allow discard-and-forward for spam filters?
In-Reply-To: <20160401182023.953AB18B8603@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <20160401182023.953AB18B8603@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <56FEC132.6090609@msapiro.net>

On 04/01/2016 11:20 AM, Adrian Pepper wrote:
>> From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
>> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 17:42:18 -0700

>> I don't know what your mods "for recognizing alternative email
>> addresses" are, but there is since MM 2.1.19 and equivalent_domains list
>> attribute to, e.g., say that @mac.com, @me.com and @icloud.com are all
>> the same for list membership purposes.
> 
> It is about user name equivalences, and, even if it could be made
> not specific to here, my hunch is the mods are specific to here, with
> built-in database lookup assumptions and stuff.  I didn't really need
> to say what the local mods are for, I was just indicating an additional
> possible reason for inertia.


Understood. I was just trying to say that, depending on what your mods
were, MM 2.1.21 might remove that 'inertia'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rerobbins at itinker.net  Sun Apr  3 08:28:58 2016
From: rerobbins at itinker.net (Richard Robbins)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 07:28:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List Migration Questions
Message-ID: <CA+KT2-96Hc0_1zNqwSd7Ukqt60PK_Ufk3yc4FUGmyWz76F=gXQ@mail.gmail.com>

I administer a mailman mailing list that is hosted by a web hosting company.

I am in the process of identifying a new service provider and want to
migrate the mailing list and hope to move the archives.  The customer
service people I have contacted do not seem to know much about mailman and
I am concerned that they might not be able to get me the relevant mbox
file.  The archived messages in monthly chunks are publicly available so I
was hoping that there might be a way for me to access the mbox file without
assistance from the hosting company.  In the alternative, what directions
should I give the hosting company to locate the file.

If I can't get the mobx file is there any way to reconstruct it from the
monthly gzip collections so that my old messages can be integrated smoothly
into a list established with another hosting company?

Thanks for your guidance.

-- Rich

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Apr  3 22:12:32 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 19:12:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List Migration Questions
In-Reply-To: <CA+KT2-96Hc0_1zNqwSd7Ukqt60PK_Ufk3yc4FUGmyWz76F=gXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+KT2-96Hc0_1zNqwSd7Ukqt60PK_Ufk3yc4FUGmyWz76F=gXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5701CD90.8040205@msapiro.net>

On 04/03/2016 05:28 AM, Richard Robbins wrote:
> I administer a mailman mailing list that is hosted by a web hosting company.
> 
> I am in the process of identifying a new service provider and want to
> migrate the mailing list and hope to move the archives.  The customer
> service people I have contacted do not seem to know much about mailman and
> I am concerned that they might not be able to get me the relevant mbox
> file.  The archived messages in monthly chunks are publicly available so I
> was hoping that there might be a way for me to access the mbox file without
> assistance from the hosting company.  In the alternative, what directions
> should I give the hosting company to locate the file.


You can get the mbox yourself. Even though your archives are public, you
can use a private archive url (with authentication) like
http://www.example.com/mailman/private/LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox

For example, the following works for this list

wget -O mailman-users.mbox \
 http://mail.python.org/mailman/private/mailman-users.mbox/mailman-users.mbox?password=pppp\&username=uuuu at example.com\&submit=1

where uuuu at example.com is a list member and pppp is the member's list
password, or pppp can be the list admin password in which case the
\&username=uuuu at example.com is unnecessary.

Also, if you can get from the host Mailman's lists/LISTNAME/config.pck
file, you can just drop it into the new server and your list with its
membership will be there.


> If I can't get the mobx file is there any way to reconstruct it from the
> monthly gzip collections so that my old messages can be integrated smoothly
> into a list established with another hosting company?


You can gunzip and concatenate all the monthly gzips, but don't do it.
There are only limited headers in those files and you lose much
information that way, and there is no need as you can get the cumulative
mbox.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From araasch at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 22:06:18 2016
From: araasch at gmail.com (Arlen Raasch)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 22:06:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Off topic, how to get in verizon.net's good graces?
Message-ID: <CAFm2SG=Mvy6TSXPDbHLtAYmXZrySe+c7naw+BcwkCarSGHykWA@mail.gmail.com>

All:

We moved to a new server, new IP address and have SPF, DMARC, and DKIM
working and being accepted by all the major email providers.  We
implemented Send_as_List as well.  By inspecting the relayed email content
we can see the major email providers are saying we pass on SPF, DMARC and
DKIM.

But, try as we may verizon.net still refuses to talk to our servers except
to say it is rejecting our messages.

Here is an example:

Apr  3 06:53:13 www postfix/error[12377]: 4A718272B: to=<
verizonclient at verizon.net>, relay=none, delay=0.12,
delays=0.03/0.06/0/0.03, dsn=4.0.0, status=deferred (delivery temporarily
suspended: host relay.verizon.net[206.46.232.11] refused to talk to me: 571
Email from 192.168.1.1 is currently blocked by Verizon Online's anti-spam
system. The email sender or Email Service Provider may visit
http://www.verizon.net/whitelist and request removal of the block. 160403)

The email address above is changed as well as the IP address of our email
server.

I have submitted multiple whitelist requests as shown above, and have seen
no response whatsoever from Verizon.  Frustrating.  This has been going on
for 5 days now.

I am about to send emails out directly to our list subscribers asking them
to migrate to another email provider, but thought I would ask the list if
anyone else had any success with verizon.net and how they did it.

Thanks in advance,

Arlen Raasch

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Apr  3 23:09:23 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 12:09:23 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Off topic, how to get in verizon.net's good graces?
In-Reply-To: <CAFm2SG=Mvy6TSXPDbHLtAYmXZrySe+c7naw+BcwkCarSGHykWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFm2SG=Mvy6TSXPDbHLtAYmXZrySe+c7naw+BcwkCarSGHykWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22273.56035.796082.349127@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Arlen Raasch writes:

 > But, try as we may verizon.net still refuses to talk to our servers
 > except to say it is rejecting our messages.

I thank the members of the Olympic Pantheon that my list members
respond to "get an address with a Provider That Cares[tm]" with "I've
been meaning to do that for a while, thanks for the reminder!"

 > suspended: host relay.verizon.net[206.46.232.11] refused to talk to me: 571
 > Email from 192.168.1.1 is currently blocked by Verizon Online's anti-spam
 > system. The email sender or Email Service Provider may visit
 > http://www.verizon.net/whitelist and request removal of the block. 160403)

Have you checked the RBLs?  There are many of them, and now there are
services that will check a whole list for you; Googling "RBL checker"
got a bunch of services.  I've used mxtoolbox.com myself, but I can
only say I'm satisfied, I haven't done any comparisons.  Since you're
actually having problems, you might want to try a couple more if you
get a clean bill of health from just one.  One advantage of mxtoolbox
is that they check more than just your RBL status, they do some
validation on your DNS and MTA, too.

 > I have submitted multiple whitelist requests as shown above, and have seen
 > no response whatsoever from Verizon.  Frustrating.  This has been going on
 > for 5 days now.

IME, 5 days for a response from the large ISPs is at least a birdie,
maybe an eagle. :-)  My sister hates Verizon but has no choice of ISP,
FWIW.  (Her emails are corporate and GMail, for that reason.)

Your users will probably be happier if you can get Verizon to stop
blocking you, rather than changing their addresses.

Sorry I can't be of more help, maybe somebody else knows somebody at
Verizon....

Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Apr  3 23:13:57 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 20:13:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Off topic,
 how to get in verizon.net's good graces?
In-Reply-To: <CAFm2SG=Mvy6TSXPDbHLtAYmXZrySe+c7naw+BcwkCarSGHykWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFm2SG=Mvy6TSXPDbHLtAYmXZrySe+c7naw+BcwkCarSGHykWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5701DBF5.4070908@msapiro.net>

On 04/03/2016 07:06 PM, Arlen Raasch wrote:
> 
> We moved to a new server, ...
> 
> But, try as we may verizon.net still refuses to talk to our servers except
> to say it is rejecting our messages.
...
> I have submitted multiple whitelist requests as shown above, and have seen
> no response whatsoever from Verizon.  Frustrating.  This has been going on
> for 5 days now.


I'm sorry to say, welcome to the club.

This has been going on for 5 months since the old mail.python.org server
died and was replaced late last October.


> I am about to send emails out directly to our list subscribers asking them
> to migrate to another email provider, but thought I would ask the list if
> anyone else had any success with verizon.net and how they did it.


I'm not sure what the current status is with mail.python.org. We haven't
seen any Mailman list bounces since mid January. Maybe everyone got
unsubscribed by bounce processing. I thought we had actually done
something to stop sending to verizon.net, but I can't find anything (if
it was done, I didn't do it).

Good luck, and if anyone has a way to actually contact Verizon other
than by submitting forms to an apparent black hole, please let us know.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From araasch at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 23:22:21 2016
From: araasch at gmail.com (Arlen Raasch)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 23:22:21 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Off topic,
 how to get in verizon.net's good graces?
In-Reply-To: <5701DBF5.4070908@msapiro.net>
References: <CAFm2SG=Mvy6TSXPDbHLtAYmXZrySe+c7naw+BcwkCarSGHykWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5701DBF5.4070908@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAFm2SGnATQTDy-2EAUmGAN5CJsUg0NSDLNN-ZO7fgK5b5G1g=Q@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I am glad (in a way) to hear that its not just me.

By the way, I learned that Verizon does not issue verizon.net accounts to
its new landline customers.  It seems they don't want to compete with AOL,
which they now own.

As such, it may be that few company resources are assigned to handling such
stuff inside what remains of the deprecated verizon.net company.

Arlen Raasch

On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 04/03/2016 07:06 PM, Arlen Raasch wrote:
> >
> > We moved to a new server, ...
> >
> > But, try as we may verizon.net still refuses to talk to our servers
> except
> > to say it is rejecting our messages.
> ...
> > I have submitted multiple whitelist requests as shown above, and have
> seen
> > no response whatsoever from Verizon.  Frustrating.  This has been going
> on
> > for 5 days now.
>
>
> I'm sorry to say, welcome to the club.
>
> This has been going on for 5 months since the old mail.python.org server
> died and was replaced late last October.
>
>
> > I am about to send emails out directly to our list subscribers asking
> them
> > to migrate to another email provider, but thought I would ask the list if
> > anyone else had any success with verizon.net and how they did it.
>
>
> I'm not sure what the current status is with mail.python.org. We haven't
> seen any Mailman list bounces since mid January. Maybe everyone got
> unsubscribed by bounce processing. I thought we had actually done
> something to stop sending to verizon.net, but I can't find anything (if
> it was done, I didn't do it).
>
> Good luck, and if anyone has a way to actually contact Verizon other
> than by submitting forms to an apparent black hole, please let us know.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/araasch%40gmail.com
>

From araasch at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 23:34:13 2016
From: araasch at gmail.com (Arlen Raasch)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 23:34:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Off topic,
 how to get in verizon.net's good graces?
In-Reply-To: <CAFm2SGnATQTDy-2EAUmGAN5CJsUg0NSDLNN-ZO7fgK5b5G1g=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFm2SG=Mvy6TSXPDbHLtAYmXZrySe+c7naw+BcwkCarSGHykWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5701DBF5.4070908@msapiro.net>
 <CAFm2SGnATQTDy-2EAUmGAN5CJsUg0NSDLNN-ZO7fgK5b5G1g=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFm2SGmcwbc5AWavnLZKpjR0daYoNs6zPixjJQ9717p8vZ3_uA@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, and Steve, I have been using mxtoolbox for some time.  Great tool.
They think our mail server is the man, as in "You da man!".

I got a verizon.net account to use to test against, and could send outbound
emails from it to my gmail account fine.  But, verizon.net even rejected
emails from my gmail account, not through any relay!  I also whitelisted
the relay domain inside the web interface for the verizon.net test account
to see if I could get one email through to inspect.  No dice!

Verizon must have its shields set to ludicrous.

I think I have had enough and will email the subscribers using still
attempting to use verizon.net to find a provider who cares tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Arlen Raasch

On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 11:22 PM, Arlen Raasch <araasch at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, I am glad (in a way) to hear that its not just me.
>
> By the way, I learned that Verizon does not issue verizon.net accounts to
> its new landline customers.  It seems they don't want to compete with AOL,
> which they now own.
>
> As such, it may be that few company resources are assigned to handling
> such stuff inside what remains of the deprecated verizon.net company.
>
> Arlen Raasch
>
> On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> On 04/03/2016 07:06 PM, Arlen Raasch wrote:
>> >
>> > We moved to a new server, ...
>> >
>> > But, try as we may verizon.net still refuses to talk to our servers
>> except
>> > to say it is rejecting our messages.
>> ...
>> > I have submitted multiple whitelist requests as shown above, and have
>> seen
>> > no response whatsoever from Verizon.  Frustrating.  This has been going
>> on
>> > for 5 days now.
>>
>>
>> I'm sorry to say, welcome to the club.
>>
>> This has been going on for 5 months since the old mail.python.org server
>> died and was replaced late last October.
>>
>>
>> > I am about to send emails out directly to our list subscribers asking
>> them
>> > to migrate to another email provider, but thought I would ask the list
>> if
>> > anyone else had any success with verizon.net and how they did it.
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure what the current status is with mail.python.org. We haven't
>> seen any Mailman list bounces since mid January. Maybe everyone got
>> unsubscribed by bounce processing. I thought we had actually done
>> something to stop sending to verizon.net, but I can't find anything (if
>> it was done, I didn't do it).
>>
>> Good luck, and if anyone has a way to actually contact Verizon other
>> than by submitting forms to an apparent black hole, please let us know.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>> Searchable Archives:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/araasch%40gmail.com
>>
>
>

From rex at rexgoode.com  Mon Apr  4 10:20:52 2016
From: rex at rexgoode.com (rex at rexgoode.com)
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 07:20:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not supported on new server
Message-ID: <ffa3e822c9d871e5d500e602eba335a5@rexgoode.com>

My host company has upgraded me to a new server at my request. After 
migrating things from my old server, I learned that they say that 
mailman doesn't work on the new server. When I try to create a new list 
using whatever it is they do support through the hosting company's admin 
interface, it tells me my lists still exist.

I can use the mailmain admin to do administrative stuff, but if I try to 
send an email to the list, I get an error like below:

                    SMTP Error (550): Failed to add recipient 
"mylist at mydomain.com" (5.1.1 <mylist at mydomain.com>: Recipient address 
rejected: User unknown in virtual mailbox table).

I wonder if there is a way to get mailman to work and show my hosting 
company that it is still possible.

Rex



From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Apr  4 13:04:35 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 02:04:35 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Mailman not supported on new server
In-Reply-To: <ffa3e822c9d871e5d500e602eba335a5@rexgoode.com>
References: <ffa3e822c9d871e5d500e602eba335a5@rexgoode.com>
Message-ID: <22274.40611.82570.268752@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

rex at rexgoode.com writes:

 >                     SMTP Error (550): Failed to add recipient 
 > "mylist at mydomain.com" (5.1.1 <mylist at mydomain.com>: Recipient address 
 > rejected: User unknown in virtual mailbox table).
 > 
 > I wonder if there is a way to get mailman to work and

If they wanted to, it wouldn't be hard.  If you want to do it
yourself, you need to be able to change the configuration of the
host's MTA to fix the error above.  Likely there's more to be done
after that, but without access to the host I can't say.

 > show my hosting company that it is still possible.

They don't care about "possible", they know it's possible.  Mailman is
not hard to "get working".  They're just avoiding the support costs
that come *after* installing mailing lists, because they specialize in
something else.  Sysadmins generally are familiar with email, but
doing a good job of hosting a bunch of domains with mailing lists
requires its own special expertise, and a higher level of ongoing
maintenance and troubleshooting than most web services do.  If you
really want to stay with that hosting service, you're going to need to
talk to them directly and convince them that they want to support your
lists.

I suggest you take a look at the services advertising on our site:
http://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services.  (Yes, it is
advertising; we just have a strict policy about blatant lies and
excessive length, and people who *want* to advertise Mailman service
generally are a pretty serious lot, happy to respect those rules.)

I haven't used any of them, and therefore don't recommend any of them.
I've heard that many are happy to have a serious chat with you about
your needs even if you're not really looking to move immediately (of
course, the more you look like a customer, the longer they'll be
willing to talk).  That can be useful "education" even if you decide
to stay and bargain with your current service.

There is also a list of consultants at
http://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20consulting%20services, if you think
you might prefer to set up your own host.

Steve

From fpicabia at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 13:36:18 2016
From: fpicabia at gmail.com (francis picabia)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:36:18 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Filtering Reply to list with informative rejection
 message
Message-ID: <CA+AKB6HXxmE9ddve3M8nH-MwXi5JmoiW1VVAf3MFFcVB+eiSnA@mail.gmail.com>

We already have settings under General for stripping the original Reply-To
and reply goes to list is set as Poster.

We have experienced a case where nominations were solicited from the list
members, and there was a response with confidential information which went
to the list rather than the poster.

There is a possibility management will want to block all replys to the
mailing list.  One could work around it by making a fresh email to the list.

The Spam Filter rule to Reject based on finding "^In-Reply-To:" works well,
but the simple rejection is not going to be understood by our users:

Message rejected by filter rule match

We can customize that in the source, but it would impact all lists.

Holding for moderation isn't an option because we have enough volume and
email outside of office hours that this wouldn't be workable.

I see a way to send a custom message to non-members of a list.  That won't
fit.

I see a way to send a custom message to moderate members, which we don't
want either.

Is there another option I have not covered or I have misunderstood
something here?

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Apr  4 14:48:24 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:48:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Filtering Reply to list with informative
 rejection message
In-Reply-To: <CA+AKB6HXxmE9ddve3M8nH-MwXi5JmoiW1VVAf3MFFcVB+eiSnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+AKB6HXxmE9ddve3M8nH-MwXi5JmoiW1VVAf3MFFcVB+eiSnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5702B6F8.3010905@msapiro.net>

On 04/04/2016 10:36 AM, francis picabia wrote:
> We already have settings under General for stripping the original Reply-To
> and reply goes to list is set as Poster.


This is arguably wrong. reply_goes_to_list = Poster means only don't add
anything to Reply-To:. Normally, this means mail from the list looks
like mail directly received with the same To:, From: and Reply-To: as
sent. But, you have first_strip_reply_to = Yes which means when I post
to your list

From: <my_never_read_web_mail at example.com>
Reply-To: <my_preferred_address at example.com>

your list will strip my Reply-To: and a 'reply' will go to
<my_never_read_web_mail at example.com> which is not what I want.

Reply-To: munging is generally not good for exactly the reason in your
next paragraph (but first_strip_reply_to didn't cause that), but
generally, first_strip_reply_to should only be Yes if reply_goes_to_list
= This list or Explicit address.


> We have experienced a case where nominations were solicited from the list
> members, and there was a response with confidential information which went
> to the list rather than the poster.


So how did this happen? Was it a 'reply-all' or a 'reply-list' or a
broken MUA generating the reply.

Was the From: munged for DMARC?

Normally if reply_goes_to_list = Poster, a 'reply' will not go to the
list unless something is broken, but there are multiple ways in which a
user can intentionally or otherwise reply to the list.


> There is a possibility management will want to block all replys to the
> mailing list.  One could work around it by making a fresh email to the list.


And exactly how would management do this?


> The Spam Filter rule to Reject based on finding "^In-Reply-To:" works well,
> but the simple rejection is not going to be understood by our users:


Plus, it precludes my replying to an off-list message with Cc: to the
list and it doesn't stop replies from users with MUAs that don't insert
In-Reply-To:.


> Message rejected by filter rule match
> 
> We can customize that in the source, but it would impact all lists.


You could also modify the source to use the custom message only for this
list, but what I would be inclined to do is implement a custom handler
(see <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030615>) for this list only to do a more
sophisticated analysis of the message and supply a nice reason when
rejecting. See the MyHandler.py example attached to the wiki article for
a start.


> ...
> Is there another option I have not covered or I have misunderstood
> something here?


There is the custom handler I describe above, but there is a deeper
issue. I'm guessing that it was a manager that sent the confidential
info to the list, and she wants to be protected from herself in the
future. No matter what you do, she will find a way to do the unintended.

If people want to reply to the list, they will figure out ways to do
this, these ways will become habit, and ultimately be followed when the
reply shouldn't go to the list.

This situation is exactly why Mailman developers are strongly biased
against reply_goes_to_list = This list, but that doesn't help with the
person who says "but I always reply-all, it's habit, your list has to
protect me from my mistake".

Other things you might try are setting include_list_post_header = No so
no MUA offers 'reply-list'.

I might have other ideas if I knew exactly what caused the reply to go
to the list

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From advax at triumf.ca  Mon Apr  4 20:30:13 2016
From: advax at triumf.ca (Andrew Daviel)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 17:30:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and recipient spam filtering
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604041714050.21191@andrew.triumf.ca>


How does mailman handle recipient's spam filtering, if a message gets 
through the mailing list filters but is rejected by a recipient ?

I have an incident where a rejection message was forwarded to a list, 
and on to other members. I don't know if that was even mailman, but it 
got me thinking.

For instance, as a recipient's mailserver, we have various SMTP 
permanent rejection status returns:

550 5.1.1 user is unknown
   - mail will never work and you might as well unsubscribe me
551 5.0.0 Invalid recipient; Use <joe at example.com>
   - if you were really clever you'd auto-update the list membership,
     otherwise might as well unsubscribe me
553 5.3.0 Rejected by CBL
   - sending ip address is listed in a DNSBL and I won't accept mail
     until you get off the blacklist
550 5.7.1 Rejected by SpamAssassin milter
  - this particular message is too spammy (says I won $1M worth of
    viagra, for instance) and I won't accept it, but otherwise it's OK;
    don't unsubscribe me
554 5.7.1 Virus xxx detected by the ClamAV AntiVirus
  - this particular message has a virus or phishing document and I won't
    accept it, but otherwise it's OK;   don't unsubscribe me


which are probably inconsistant, created over a span of many years




-- 
Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada
Tel. +1 (604) 222-7376  (Pacific Time)

From rsk at gsp.org  Mon Apr  4 21:13:22 2016
From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 21:13:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and recipient spam filtering
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604041714050.21191@andrew.triumf.ca>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604041714050.21191@andrew.triumf.ca>
Message-ID: <20160405011322.GA19415@gsp.org>

On Mon, Apr 04, 2016 at 05:30:13PM -0700, Andrew Daviel wrote:
> I have an incident where a rejection message was forwarded to a
> list, and on to other members. I don't know if that was even
> mailman, but it got me thinking.

First, that's because the system which originated the rejection is broken.

All mail systems doing anti-spam/anti-virus/anti-whatever
should *always* reject (if they're going to reject) during the
SMTP conversation (a) because that's most effective and efficient
and (b) because that avoids generating a bounce message, which in
turn avoids backscatter such as you've described.

Second, anything coming back should go to the Sender:, which I
believe defaults to:

	LISTNAME-bounces at LISTHOST

I believe that LISTNAME-bounces, in turn, should be sent by the MTA
in play to:

	"|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces LISTNAME"

(although I have it set up like this in the sendmail aliases file:

	LISTNAME-bounces:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces LISTNAME", postmaster at LISTHOST

so that the local postmaster gets a copy of the bounce for examination.)

This doesn't necessarily yield the desired outcome, e.g., it may
result in incrementing the bounce count for a subscriber when that
shouldn't really happen, but at least it avoids forwarding backscatter
to an entire mailing list.

---rsk

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Apr  4 22:45:47 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 11:45:47 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Filtering Reply to list with informative rejection
 message
In-Reply-To: <CA+AKB6HXxmE9ddve3M8nH-MwXi5JmoiW1VVAf3MFFcVB+eiSnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+AKB6HXxmE9ddve3M8nH-MwXi5JmoiW1VVAf3MFFcVB+eiSnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22275.9947.313573.653625@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

francis picabia writes:

 > We have experienced a case where nominations were solicited from
 > the list members, and there was a response with confidential
 > information which went to the list rather than the poster.

There is no way to have an unmoderated list which prevents
"confidential" information from going to the list.  The only way to
prevent certain information from going to the list is to restrict
posting to those who don't have the information.  (This is why secret
organizations use "cell" organization.  You can't reveal what you
don't know.)

 > There is a possibility management will want to block all replys to
 > the mailing list.  One could work around it by making a fresh email
 > to the list.

The requirement is not clear.  Does management want to block such
fresh emails as well?  Or is the idea that fresh emails be the
ordinary way to reply to list, hoping that people will be reminded not
to post confidential information?

 > The Spam Filter rule to Reject based on finding "^In-Reply-To:" works well,
 > but the simple rejection is not going to be understood by our users:
 > 
 > Message rejected by filter rule match

Systems based on rejecting user input do *not* work well in the long
run in my experience.  Users get annoyed and avoid doing work they
*should* do, or develop (inefficient) habits that result in
unintended posts anyway.

 > Is there another option I have not covered or I have misunderstood
 > something here?

The other option is to put the responsibility on the individuals
soliciting confidential information.  Create a fully personalized list
with Reply-To set to the mailbox intended to receive confidential
information.  If the senders themselves are typically not authorized
to see the information, create a separate mailbox (account) for use by
those authorized to solicit confidential information.

I can't be sure that any of the above addresses your (or your
management's) needs.  But without a better idea of what they're trying
to accomplish and why, it's hard give good advice.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Apr  4 22:46:56 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 11:46:56 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Mailman not supported on new server
In-Reply-To: <ffa3e822c9d871e5d500e602eba335a5@rexgoode.com>
References: <ffa3e822c9d871e5d500e602eba335a5@rexgoode.com>
Message-ID: <22275.10016.792928.969793@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

rex at rexgoode.com writes:

 >                     SMTP Error (550): Failed to add recipient 
 > "mylist at mydomain.com" (5.1.1 <mylist at mydomain.com>: Recipient address 
 > rejected: User unknown in virtual mailbox table).
 > 
 > I wonder if there is a way to get mailman to work and

If they wanted to, it wouldn't be hard.  If you want to do it
yourself, you need to be able to change the configuration of the
host's MTA to fix the error above.  Likely there's more to be done
after that, but without access to the host I can't say.

 > show my hosting company that it is still possible.

They don't care about "possible", they know it's possible.  Mailman is
not hard to "get working".  They're just avoiding the support costs
that come *after* installing mailing lists, because they specialize in
something else.  Sysadmins generally are familiar with email, but
doing a good job of hosting a bunch of domains with mailing lists
requires its own special expertise, and a higher level of ongoing
maintenance and troubleshooting than most web services do.  If you
really want to stay with that hosting service, you're going to need to
talk to them directly.

I suggest you take a look at the services advertising on our site:
http://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services.  (Yes, it is
advertising; we just have a strict policy about blatant lies and
excessive length, and people who *want* to advertise Mailman service
generally are a pretty serious lot, happy to respect those rules.)

I haven't used any of them, and therefore don't recommend any of them.
I've heard that many are happy to have a serious chat with you about
your needs even if you're not really looking to move immediately (of
course, the more you look like a customer, the longer they'll be
willing to talk).  That can be useful "education" even if you decide
to stay and bargain with your current service.

There is also a list of consultants at
http://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20consulting%20services, if you think
you might prefer to set up your own host.


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr  5 15:13:42 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 12:13:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New Mailman 3 users list
Message-ID: <57040E66.9050705@msapiro.net>

I'm happy to announce a new list for Mailman 3 users and others
interested in Mailman 3. This list is running on a new Mailman 3
installation at lists.mailman3.org.

The list's posting address is <mailman-users at mailman3.org>.

The list's info page is
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/>
and its archives are at
<https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>.

The top level Postorius page is <https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/>
and the HyperKitty archiver is at <https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/>.

You can subscribe by email by sending a blank message to
<mailman-users-join at mailman3.org> and responding to the resulting
confirmation request. You can also subscribe by going to the info page
at
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/>,
logging in and subscribing.

Log in offers three options. There are Google and Facebook OAuth2 login
links on the log in page to log in with a Google or Facebook account,
and there is a 'Login by email' link to login via Persona with any
address you register and confirm with Persona.

This is a new installation of Mailman 3 so there are still kinks to work
out, and any issues can be discussed on the list or reported to the
trackers at <https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues>,
<https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues> or
<https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues> as appropriate.

Enjoy!

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From araasch at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 15:14:27 2016
From: araasch at gmail.com (Arlen Raasch)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 15:14:27 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DKIM, SPF, DMARC, Mail_as_list all working,
 but MUAs not happy
Message-ID: <CAFm2SGkV4FQEnUpu_BF5zcgnGOG2S5u6o5D5EPwuaK40Kj3XjA@mail.gmail.com>

All:

I am using a very old version of mailman, 2.1.16.  I wanted to update to a
newer version during this migration, but I was too concerned that I would
break something in this complex server by upgrading and changing the
dependencies that new versions of mailman require.

A large number of our users are not happy with how mail is presented when
Mail_as_list is active.  They messages appear as attachments in some MUAs.

If I change from Mail_as_list to Mung From, DKIM does not validate.

I noticed from previous emails I received from this list that DKIM does not
validate here either.

Can I just switch the list to Mung From with some certainty that the email
providers will continue to relay our traffic as we have valid SPF and DMARC
records?

Would switching to a later version of mailman make this any better (and
why)?

Thanks in advance,

Arlen Raasch

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr  5 16:00:41 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 13:00:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DKIM, SPF, DMARC, Mail_as_list all working,
 but MUAs not happy
In-Reply-To: <CAFm2SGkV4FQEnUpu_BF5zcgnGOG2S5u6o5D5EPwuaK40Kj3XjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFm2SGkV4FQEnUpu_BF5zcgnGOG2S5u6o5D5EPwuaK40Kj3XjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57041969.9090503@msapiro.net>

On 04/05/2016 12:14 PM, Arlen Raasch wrote:
> 
> A large number of our users are not happy with how mail is presented when
> Mail_as_list is active.  They messages appear as attachments in some MUAs.
> 
> If I change from Mail_as_list to Mung From, DKIM does not validate.


I'm guessing you are talking about the from_is_list setting and you are
using 'Wrap Message'.


> I noticed from previous emails I received from this list that DKIM does not
> validate here either.


The original, incoming DKIM signature doesn't validate because list
transformations such as prefixing the subject or adding msg_footer break
the sig.

I just checked and found that mail.python.org was not DKIM signing
outgoing list mail because it was checking only the From: domain for
python.org. I have hopefully just corrected that.


> Can I just switch the list to Mung From with some certainty that the email
> providers will continue to relay our traffic as we have valid SPF and DMARC
> records?


If Wrap Message is currently working for you, I don't know why Munge
>From would not work, but there is little difference between these
actions in Mailman 2.1.21 vs 2.1.16. However, 2.1.21 does offer
dmarc_moderation_action so you can apply Wrap Message or Munge From only
to those messages which are From: a domain which publishes a DMARC
p=reject (and optionally p=quarantine) policy.


> Would switching to a later version of mailman make this any better (and
> why)?


Maybe. As I say above, it would allow you to only apply DMARC
mitigations to those posts that need it. Whether it would make Munge
>From any better depends on what the current issue is. I know of no
reason why Wrap Message would be effective in avoiding DMARC rejects and
Munge From would not, but ISPs do funny things and are secretive about
it, so who knows.

My own lists and the python.org lists do Munge From and we don't see
DMARC bounces.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From araasch at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 17:48:26 2016
From: araasch at gmail.com (Arlen Raasch)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 17:48:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DKIM, SPF, DMARC, Mail_as_list all working,
 but MUAs not happy
In-Reply-To: <57041969.9090503@msapiro.net>
References: <CAFm2SGkV4FQEnUpu_BF5zcgnGOG2S5u6o5D5EPwuaK40Kj3XjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <57041969.9090503@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAFm2SGnBut3AWHKkpJYsNfm_VNqUKC0izggvwm6iNu464-PbOw@mail.gmail.com>

Mark:

Thanks much.  I think I will give Munge From and see what happens.

Computers are supposed to be deterministic.  This stuff, well, not so much.

Thanks again,

Arlen Raasch

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 04/05/2016 12:14 PM, Arlen Raasch wrote:
> >
> > A large number of our users are not happy with how mail is presented when
> > Mail_as_list is active.  They messages appear as attachments in some
> MUAs.
> >
> > If I change from Mail_as_list to Mung From, DKIM does not validate.
>
>
> I'm guessing you are talking about the from_is_list setting and you are
> using 'Wrap Message'.
>
>
> > I noticed from previous emails I received from this list that DKIM does
> not
> > validate here either.
>
>
> The original, incoming DKIM signature doesn't validate because list
> transformations such as prefixing the subject or adding msg_footer break
> the sig.
>
> I just checked and found that mail.python.org was not DKIM signing
> outgoing list mail because it was checking only the From: domain for
> python.org. I have hopefully just corrected that.
>
>
> > Can I just switch the list to Mung From with some certainty that the
> email
> > providers will continue to relay our traffic as we have valid SPF and
> DMARC
> > records?
>
>
> If Wrap Message is currently working for you, I don't know why Munge
> From would not work, but there is little difference between these
> actions in Mailman 2.1.21 vs 2.1.16. However, 2.1.21 does offer
> dmarc_moderation_action so you can apply Wrap Message or Munge From only
> to those messages which are From: a domain which publishes a DMARC
> p=reject (and optionally p=quarantine) policy.
>
>
> > Would switching to a later version of mailman make this any better (and
> > why)?
>
>
> Maybe. As I say above, it would allow you to only apply DMARC
> mitigations to those posts that need it. Whether it would make Munge
> From any better depends on what the current issue is. I know of no
> reason why Wrap Message would be effective in avoiding DMARC rejects and
> Munge From would not, but ISPs do funny things and are secretive about
> it, so who knows.
>
> My own lists and the python.org lists do Munge From and we don't see
> DMARC bounces.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/araasch%40gmail.com
>

From arpepper at uwaterloo.ca  Wed Apr  6 14:28:22 2016
From: arpepper at uwaterloo.ca (Adrian Pepper)
Date: Wed,  6 Apr 2016 14:28:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Which autoreplies are configurable
Message-ID: <20160406182822.59F9318CEB03@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>

Is the following reply configurable in any Mailman 2 versions?

   --===============4977805536057818275==
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   MIME-Version: 1.0
   Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your message has
   been automatically rejected.  If you think that your messages are
   being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at
   mailman-users-owner at python.org


   --===============4977805536057818275==
   Content-Type: message/rfc822
   MIME-Version: 1.0 

(In this message I have changed the actual list name and owner as if
the name of the list is mailman-users at python.org to reduce exposure of
the actual list).

As far as I can tell, the only configurable email response settings are
"held for moderation"
https://python.org/mailman/admin/mailman-users/privacy/sender


and "auto-response" (to successful postings)
https://python.org/mailman/admin/mailman-users/autoreply
autoreply.autoresponse_admin_text

And the welcome results.
https://python.org/mailman/edithtml/mailman-users/subscribeack.txt
("subscribe results" is something different).


Adrian Pepper



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr  6 18:53:45 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 15:53:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Which autoreplies are configurable
In-Reply-To: <20160406182822.59F9318CEB03@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <20160406182822.59F9318CEB03@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <57059379.2080601@msapiro.net>

On 04/06/2016 11:28 AM, Adrian Pepper wrote:
> Is the following reply configurable in any Mailman 2 versions?
> 
>    --===============4977805536057818275==
>    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>    MIME-Version: 1.0
>    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
>    You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your message has
>    been automatically rejected.  If you think that your messages are
>    being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at
>    mailman-users-owner at python.org
> 
> 
>    --===============4977805536057818275==
>    Content-Type: message/rfc822
>    MIME-Version: 1.0 


It is Privacy options... -> Sender filters -> nonmember_rejection_notice

Just further down the page from member_moderation_notice.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From advax at triumf.ca  Wed Apr  6 22:01:59 2016
From: advax at triumf.ca (Andrew Daviel)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 19:01:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and recipient spam filtering
In-Reply-To: <20160405011322.GA19415@gsp.org>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604041714050.21191@andrew.triumf.ca>
 <20160405011322.GA19415@gsp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604061842141.6137@andrew.triumf.ca>

On Mon, 4 Apr 2016, Rich Kulawiec wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 04, 2016 at 05:30:13PM -0700, Andrew Daviel wrote:
>> I have an incident where a rejection message was forwarded to a
>> list, and on to other members. I don't know if that was even
>> mailman, but it got me thinking.
>
> First, that's because the system which originated the rejection is broken.

On further investigation, that incident was not mailman or real mailing 
list software, just a simple address expansion in sendmail to 4 people. 
The sender had spoofed the sending address to the recipient, i.e. "list" 
address.


> All mail systems doing anti-spam/anti-virus/anti-whatever
> should *always* reject (if they're going to reject) during the
> SMTP conversation (a) because that's most effective and efficient
> and (b) because that avoids generating a bounce message, which in
> turn avoids backscatter such as you've described.

Yes; the antivirus system works like that. It was sendmail generating a 
DSN back to the "sender" that caused the problem, and I think I can just 
reject mail "from" that address, i.e. make it a receive-only address, 
e.g. Joe and Jane both get mail to "webmaster" but reply as themselves.


> Second, anything coming back should go to the Sender:, which I
> believe defaults to:
>
> 	LISTNAME-bounces at LISTHOST

> This doesn't necessarily yield the desired outcome, e.g., it may
> result in incrementing the bounce count for a subscriber when that
> shouldn't really happen, but at least it avoids forwarding backscatter
> to an entire mailing list.

Apologies, I confused the issue by talking about two different things, 
backscatter and bounces.


My real question is, there are two types of "permanent" (500 series) 
rejection - recipient problems and message problems. I want mailman to 
auto-unsubscribe stale addresses after 5 (bounce_score_threshold) 
bounces, but I don't want active addresses to be unsubscribed because 5 
successive viruses or spams got through a relatively quiet list but were 
rejected by the recipient's filters.

I wondered if that was already handled inside mailman bounce processing, 
or is something that needs work.



-- 
Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  7 00:17:56 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 21:17:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and recipient spam filtering
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604061842141.6137@andrew.triumf.ca>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604041714050.21191@andrew.triumf.ca>
 <20160405011322.GA19415@gsp.org>
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604061842141.6137@andrew.triumf.ca>
Message-ID: <5705DF74.3020609@msapiro.net>

On 04/06/2016 07:01 PM, Andrew Daviel wrote:
> 
> My real question is, there are two types of "permanent" (500 series)
> rejection - recipient problems and message problems. I want mailman to
> auto-unsubscribe stale addresses after 5 (bounce_score_threshold)
> bounces, but I don't want active addresses to be unsubscribed because 5
> successive viruses or spams got through a relatively quiet list but were
> rejected by the recipient's filters.
> 
> I wondered if that was already handled inside mailman bounce processing,
> or is something that needs work.


Mailman does not distinguish between various types of 5xx permanent
failures. If Mailman receives a 5xx status during SMTP to the outgoing
MTA, that is recorded as a bounce. If it receives a permanent failure
DSN returned by a remote MTA, that is recorded as a bounce.

You can adjust the parameters bounce_score_threshold and
bounce_info_stale_after in Bounce Processing to try to accommodate
differences in those situations, but ultimately, Mailman doesn't
distinguish between a permanent failure for non-existent address and one
for unacceptable content.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Apr  7 00:36:14 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 13:36:14 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and recipient spam filtering
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604061842141.6137@andrew.triumf.ca>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604041714050.21191@andrew.triumf.ca>
 <20160405011322.GA19415@gsp.org>
 <alpine.LRH.2.03.1604061842141.6137@andrew.triumf.ca>
Message-ID: <22277.58302.636075.863863@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Andrew Daviel writes:

 > My real question is, there are two types of "permanent" (500 series) 
 > rejection - recipient problems and message problems. I want mailman to 
 > auto-unsubscribe stale addresses after 5 (bounce_score_threshold) 
 > bounces, but I don't want active addresses to be unsubscribed because 5 
 > successive viruses or spams got through a relatively quiet list but were 
 > rejected by the recipient's filters.

Expanding on what Mark wrote:

It's not possible to reliably distinguish the two cases.  Besides the
large number of sites that give uninformative status codes to policy
(ie, "message problem") rejections, DMARC rejects get a "message
problem" status code, but they indicate that you just aren't going to
get through to that recipient.

If somebody who's had different experience wants to try the experiment
and show that it actually has potential for reducing undesired
unsubscriptions, I don't mean to discourage them.  But I won't do it
-- in my experience, such spates of spam getting through the list are
miniscule compared to the problems caused by rude and incompetent
receivers, so the effort is excessive compared to the return.

Steve

From bjo at nord-west.org  Thu Apr  7 02:34:08 2016
From: bjo at nord-west.org (Bjoern Franke)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:34:08 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Prevent unsubscribed users from being resubscribed
Message-ID: <1460010848.1623.4.camel@nord-west.org>

Hi,

we are using mailman in one case for sending newsletters to customers.
If they unsubscribe themselves from the list, it should be prevented
that someone can add them again accidentally.
Is it possible to use somehow a blocklist for mailman?

TIA
Bjoern



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr  7 10:56:11 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 07:56:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Prevent unsubscribed users from being
 resubscribed
In-Reply-To: <1460010848.1623.4.camel@nord-west.org>
References: <1460010848.1623.4.camel@nord-west.org>
Message-ID: <5706750B.9070502@msapiro.net>

On 04/06/2016 11:34 PM, Bjoern Franke wrote:
> 
> we are using mailman in one case for sending newsletters to customers.
> If they unsubscribe themselves from the list, it should be prevented
> that someone can add them again accidentally.
> Is it possible to use somehow a blocklist for mailman?


In the list's web admin UI, Privacy options... -> Subscription rules ->
ban_list

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lists at damorris.com  Fri Apr  8 04:19:06 2016
From: lists at damorris.com (Adam Morris)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 18:19:06 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail being sent from bounce list address?
Message-ID: <5707697A.7090402@damorris.com>

Hi all,

I use mailman as part of cPanel to run some lists so am not as 
experienced as others.

Wondering why the below happens, I thought when a message is sent to a 
list it should be sent from the sender to the list name.
In this case there is a bounce address mentioned.


Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 10:36 AM
To: atug at damorris.com
Subject:




-- 


Adam Morris

email:
adam at damorris.com


		


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr  8 11:13:30 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 08:13:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail being sent from bounce list address?
In-Reply-To: <5707697A.7090402@damorris.com>
References: <5707697A.7090402@damorris.com>
Message-ID: <5707CA9A.1030107@msapiro.net>

On 04/08/2016 01:19 AM, Adam Morris wrote:
> 
> Wondering why the below happens, I thought when a message is sent to a
> list it should be sent from the sender to the list name.
> In this case there is a bounce address mentioned.
> 
> 
> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 10:36 AM
> To: atug at damorris.com
> Subject:
> 

It seems part of what you intended to post above is missing, but the FAQ
article at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030534> probably addresses this.

The underlying issue is messages are sent with the envelope sender, an
Errors-To: header and a Sender: header set to the listname-bounces
address. This is so non-delivery notices (bounces) are sent to the
list's bounce processing address and not to the list itself or the
poster of the original message.

It is normally the Sender: header which is exposed by some MUAs
(Microsoft Outlook and other Microsoft products in particular) which
causes user confusion. It actually should not be necessary for Mailman
to set the Sender: as any compliant MTA will return a non-delivery
notice to the envelope sender, but not all MTAs are compliant. In recent
Mailman versions, if the site doesn't disable it, there is a  General
Options -> include_sender_header setting that can tell Mailman not to
add it's Sender: header.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rerobbins at itinker.net  Sat Apr  9 11:20:39 2016
From: rerobbins at itinker.net (Richard Robbins)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 08:20:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Archive Migration Question
Message-ID: <CA+KT2-9=V0bnjenx5FQGGxgnRtku2u58ejuLxF1z7sg_WAEYzw@mail.gmail.com>

I have an archive of email messages from a mailman discussion list that I
would like to recreate as a series of WordPress posts.  The archive
currently exists as an mbox file that I'm pruning with an email reader.
Once I have the collection culled to what I want to retain I thought it
would be nice to use an email reader with a redirect command that would
permit me to then send those messages to my WordPress site using the post
by email function.

Does this approach make sense?  Are there alternatives I should consider?

Oh -- and I need to find a current mail program that will allow me redirect
existing messages to a new address as opposed to using forward.

From hedy.dargere at spheerys.fr  Sat Apr  9 12:25:53 2016
From: hedy.dargere at spheerys.fr (=?UTF-8?Q?Hedy_Darg=c3=a8re?=)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:25:53 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages considered as spam by Hotmail
Message-ID: <57092D11.9000409@spheerys.fr>

Hi,

All messages sent on my mailman server are considered as spam by Hotmail.
My reverse DNS is correctly configurer, IPv4 and IPv6
I have a SPF record and on mail-tester.com I have a 8/10 graduation with
mail sent from my server (as root, not with mailman list) :
http://www.mail-tester.com/web-qqEoc0

Here a source message, considered as spam :

==========================

Received: from DB5PR06MB1557.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.164.40.155) by
 VI1PR06MB1568.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.164.86.158) with Microsoft SMTP
 Server (TLS) id 15.1.447.15 via Mailbox Transport; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:56:30
 +0000
Received: from DB5PR06CA0042.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.162.165.52) by
 DB5PR06MB1557.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.164.40.155) with Microsoft SMTP
 Server (TLS) id 15.1.453.26; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:56:30 +0000
Received: from VE1EUR01FT021.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com
 (2a01:111:f400:7e01::208) by DB5PR06CA0042.outlook.office365.com
 (2a01:111:e400:52c2::52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id
15.1.453.26 via
 Frontend Transport; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:56:30 +0000
Received: from COL004-MC6F7.hotmail.com (10.152.2.54) by
 VE1EUR01FT021.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.2.223) with Microsoft
SMTP
 Server (TLS) id 15.1.453.6 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:56:29
 +0000
Received: from listes.np11.org ([46.226.109.222]) by
COL004-MC6F7.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23143);
     Sat, 9 Apr 2016 05:56:26 -0700
Received: from listes.np11.org (listes.np11.org [127.0.0.1])
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 [217.70.183.194])
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 for <test at listes.np11.org>; Sat,  9 Apr 2016 14:56:24 +0200 (CEST)
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[217.70.178.161])
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 with ESMTP id WCaR2GfLUlAg for <test at listes.np11.org>;
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 by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A2870C5A4F
 for <test at listes.np11.org>; Sat,  9 Apr 2016 14:56:22 +0200 (CEST)
To: <test at listes.np11.org>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Hedy_Darg=c3=a8re?= <hedy.dargere at spheerys.fr>
Openpgp: id=FAB74B3806526349E53118C11D6619713F1C174C
Message-ID: <5708FC00.2030709 at spheerys.fr>
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 14:56:32 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/38.7.1
Subject: [Test] test 14h56
X-BeenThere: test at listes.np11.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <test.listes.np11.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://listes.np11.org/options/test>,
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List-Archive: <http://listes.np11.org/pipermail/test/>
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List-Help: <mailto:test-request at listes.np11.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://listes.np11.org/listinfo/test>,
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I don't understand what's append...

Do you have ant idea ?

Hedy


From cedric at gn.apc.org  Sat Apr  9 14:11:06 2016
From: cedric at gn.apc.org (Cedric Knight)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 19:11:06 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages considered as spam by Hotmail
In-Reply-To: <57092D11.9000409@spheerys.fr>
References: <57092D11.9000409@spheerys.fr>
Message-ID: <570945BA.3040901@gn.apc.org>

On 09/04/16 17:25, Hedy Darg?re wrote:
> All messages sent on my mailman server are considered as spam by Hotmail.
> My reverse DNS is correctly configurer, IPv4 and IPv6
> I have a SPF record and on mail-tester.com I have a 8/10 graduation with
> mail sent from my server (as root, not with mailman list) :
> http://www.mail-tester.com/web-qqEoc0

So you suspect Hotmail thinks there's something spammy about Mailman?
Maybe you can test yourself including things like the Mailman footer and
any URIs that might be dirtylisted to work out what factor is affecting
Hotmail's "spam confidence level".

> 
> Here a source message, considered as spam :

[snips]
> Received: from listes.np11.org ([46.226.109.222]) by
> COL004-MC6F7.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23143);
>      Sat, 9 Apr 2016 05:56:26 -0700

Connecting IP 46.226.109.222 seems clean.

> X-Originating-IP: 78.213.138.119
> Received: from [192.168.0.3] (cza11-1-78-213-138-119.fbx.proxad.net
>  [78.213.138.119]) (Authenticated sender: hedy.dargere at spheerys.fr)
>  by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A2870C5A4F
>  for <test at listes.np11.org>; Sat,  9 Apr 2016 14:56:22 +0200 (CEST)

SURBL/PhishTank says proxad.net is a domain abused for phishing, but
that shouldn't be a significant problem.

> To: <test at listes.np11.org>
> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Hedy_Darg=c3=a8re?= <hedy.dargere at spheerys.fr>

> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 14:56:32 +0200
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101
>  Thunderbird/38.7.1
> Subject: [Test] test 14h56
> X-BeenThere: test at listes.np11.org
> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18

> List-Unsubscribe: <http://listes.np11.org/options/test>,
>  <mailto:test-request at listes.np11.org?subject=unsubscribe>

> CMM-Authentication-Results: hotmail.com; spf=pass (sender IP is
>  46.226.109.222) smtp.mailfrom=test-bounces at listes.np11.org; dkim=none
>  header.d=spheerys.fr; x-hmca=pass header.id=test-bounces at listes.np11.org

> CMM-X-AUTH-Result: PASS

Confirms problem is not SPF or DKIM.

> X-MS-Exchange-Organization-PCL: 2
> X-Forefront-Antispam-Report:
> EFV:NLI;SFV:SPM;SFS:(28900001);DIR:INB;SFP:;SCL:5;SRVR:DB5PR06MB1557;H:COL004-MC6F7.hotmail.com;FPR:;SPF:None;MLV:ovr;LANG:fr;

OK, so Forefront thinks the message is "SPM" with a Confidence Level of
5 (suspect spam).

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn205071%28v=exchg.150%29.aspx
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/jj200686%28v=exchg.150%29.aspx

> X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(8291501002);SRVR:DB5PR06MB1557;
> X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test:
> BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(102415293)(102615271)(82015046);SRVR:DB5PR06MB1557;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DB5PR06MB1557;
...
> X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: 5
> SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:22

Not regarded as bulk or phishing, so seems like a false positive from MS
Forefront/Cloudmark.  How to report this?  Well, maybe your recipients
marking as not spam and moving the message to the inbox will help a
little.  Or any recipients using a paid MS service like Office 365 may
be able to raise a support ticket.  Or there's a submission form for
Cloudmark at https://www.cloudmark.com/en/support/cloudmark-authority.
If none of that works, try to find someone at Hotmail or microsoft.com
who might help.

I don't think it's particularly Mailman related.

CK

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr  9 14:26:29 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 11:26:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages considered as spam by Hotmail
In-Reply-To: <57092D11.9000409@spheerys.fr>
References: <57092D11.9000409@spheerys.fr>
Message-ID: <57094955.80600@msapiro.net>

On 04/09/2016 09:25 AM, Hedy Darg?re wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> All messages sent on my mailman server are considered as spam by Hotmail.


See the FAQ article at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030690>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cedric at gn.apc.org  Sat Apr  9 14:56:56 2016
From: cedric at gn.apc.org (Cedric Knight)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 19:56:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo extends DMARC p=reject to other domains
In-Reply-To: <55610FC2.2000202@msapiro.net>
References: <4D3112EB-BFF0-41C1-AFF7-485D2BBCA0EF@rc.org>
 <55610FC2.2000202@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <57095078.6030102@gn.apc.org>

On 23/05/15 22:45, Allan Hansen wrote:
> I have waited almost a year for AOL and Yahoo to admit that they
> messed up and to remove their DMARC policy.

Me too.  Sadly, Yahoo has recently (28 March) compounded their mess,
probably necessitating an update to workarounds on some Mailman
installations.  Initially they said the policy would just involve
"low-volume Yahoo international domains"
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.mail.spam.dmarc/2411 but when the
deadline came it also included yahoo.co.uk, yahoo.fr and all Yahoo user
domains I know of: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.mail.spam.dmarc/2414

Background for anyone who doesn't know it:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-April/
http://wiki.list.org/x/17891458
http://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC

[snippets]
On 24/05/15 00:39, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> In any case, I will refrain from discussing the merits of adding
> .invalid to the domain, but why do it for all domains and not just
> yahoo.com and aol.com or actually look up the From: domain's DMARC
> policy and only do it for domains with DMARC p=reject.

Some workarounds may look up _dmarc TXT record, others may maintain
static lists of affected domains, some may choose to break RFC 5322
consistently because of some ISPs wrongly using p=reject for user email
that is sent to discussion lists.  In the case of static lists, these
may need to be extended to include the above Yahoo domains.

On 21/08/15 19:26, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> DMARC p=reject gives list admins an unpleasant choice: (1) violate the
> mail standards and suffer various degradations of service because
> others in the mail system assume conformance (eg, your "wrong
> duplicate" problem), (2) tell your p=reject users that their posts are
> going to be rejected or discarded by many subscribers, or (3) stop
> decorating posts with [List] tags or material prefixed and affixed to
> the message body (so that the originator's DKIM signature will remain
> valid and the DMARC checks will pass).
>
> N.B. The tech staff from Yahoo! and AOL have acknowledged (on the
> ietf-dmarc mailing list) that their employers are knowingly breaking
> mailing lists (and other services) to address their security fiascos.
> The designers of DMARC have always maintained that the Yahoo!/AOL use
> case is abusive -- DMARC was designed to protect official mail to
> customers sent on behalf of corporations by their employees, not the
> general use mail of users with addresses at freemail providers. In
> other words, mailing lists just shouldn't receive mail from p=reject
> domains, ever. No problem -- until Yahoo! and AOL decided to *create*
> one.
>
> IMO, given those facts, posting from a Yahoo! or AOL address is just
> plain rude. (I can and do get away with banning their posts. I wish
> everybody could do that.)

Yes, someone really should explain to Marissa Mayer that every new
anti-forgery acronym isn't appropriate or useful for user freemail and
it's making Yahoo look incompetent and/or antisocial.

CK

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr  9 15:49:24 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 12:49:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Archive Migration Question
In-Reply-To: <CA+KT2-9=V0bnjenx5FQGGxgnRtku2u58ejuLxF1z7sg_WAEYzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+KT2-9=V0bnjenx5FQGGxgnRtku2u58ejuLxF1z7sg_WAEYzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57095CC4.10601@msapiro.net>

On 04/09/2016 08:20 AM, Richard Robbins wrote:

> Once I have the collection culled to what I want to retain I thought it
> would be nice to use an email reader with a redirect command that would
> permit me to then send those messages to my WordPress site using the post
> by email function.
> 
> Does this approach make sense?  Are there alternatives I should consider?
> 
> Oh -- and I need to find a current mail program that will allow me redirect
> existing messages to a new address as opposed to using forward.


Mutt can 'bounce' (i.e. redirect) a mail to a new recipient, but it is
an almost trivial Python script to read a mbox and resend every message
to a new address. For example, the script at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/post_from_mbox> does essentially that
in a Mailman context.

I have attached a rough modification of that script that can read a mbox
and remail the messages therein to a given address.

These things are set in the script

SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
SMTPPORT = 25
SMTPUSER = None
SMTPPW = None
MYHOST = socket.gethostname()
ENVFROM = 'root@{}'.format(MYHOST)

The script will work as is if there is an MTA listening on localhost:25
that can deliver the mail to the given address. If not, set SMTPHOST to
the fully qualified name of the MTA you want to use and set SMTPPORT to
the port. If you change nothing else, the script will attempt to send
via that host without authentication. If you need to authenticate, set
SMTPUSER and SMTPPW appropriately and the script will attempt to start
TLS and authenticate as that user.

MYHOST is the host name that will me used in EHLO for a startTLS
connection and may or may not need adjustment. ENVFROM is the envelope
sender and can be adjusted if needed.

The script does almost no error checking so if anything goes wrong, it
will stop with an exception and a traceback and you'll have to fix the
problem and try again.

Start with a mbox with only one or two messages and a test address to
send to until you're sure it works.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


-------------- next part --------------
#! /usr/bin/env python

"""Remail all messages in some mbox file to a given address.

Usage: %(PROGRAM)s [options] filename address

Where:

    --verbose
    -v
        Print information about what's done.

    --help
    -h
        Print this help message and exit.

'filename' is the name of a *nix mbox file containing one or more messages to
be remailed to 'address'.
"""

import sys
import getopt
import socket
import smtplib

from mailbox import mbox

PROGRAM = sys.argv[0]

def usage(code, msg=''):
    if code:
        fd = sys.stderr
    else:
        fd = sys.stdout
    print >> fd, __doc__
    if msg:
        print >> fd, msg
    sys.exit(code)


conn = None
SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
SMTPPORT = 25
SMTPUSER = None
SMTPPW = None
MYHOST = socket.gethostname()
ENVFROM = 'root@{}'.format(MYHOST)
def sendit(msg, address):
    global conn
    if not conn:
        conn = smtplib.SMTP()
        conn.connect(SMTPHOST, SMTPPORT)
        if SMTPUSER:
            conn.starttls()
            conn.ehlo(MYHOST)
            conn.login(SMTPUSER, SMTPPW)
    conn.sendmail(ENVFROM, address, msg.as_string())


def main():
    try:
        opts, args = getopt.getopt(
            sys.argv[1:], 'hv',
            ['help', 'verbose'])
    except getopt.error, msg:
        usage(1, msg)

    verbose = False
    for opt, arg in opts:
        if opt in ('-h', '--help'):
            usage(0)
        elif opt in ('-v', '--verbose'):
            verbose = True

    if len(args) != 2:
        usage(1, 'Exactly two arguments required.')

    filename = args[0]
    address = args[1]
    mb = mbox(filename, create=False)
    for msg in mb:
        if verbose:
            print """Resending message
    Subject: %s
    Date: %s
""" % (msg.get('subject', 'N/A'), msg.get('date', 'N/A'))
        sendit(msg, address)


if __name__ == '__main__':
    main()



From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr  9 16:04:57 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 13:04:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo extends DMARC p=reject to other domains
In-Reply-To: <57095078.6030102@gn.apc.org>
References: <4D3112EB-BFF0-41C1-AFF7-485D2BBCA0EF@rc.org>
 <55610FC2.2000202@msapiro.net> <57095078.6030102@gn.apc.org>
Message-ID: <57096069.2040205@msapiro.net>

On 04/09/2016 11:56 AM, Cedric Knight wrote:
> On 23/05/15 22:45, Allan Hansen wrote:
>> I have waited almost a year for AOL and Yahoo to admit that they
>> messed up and to remove their DMARC policy.
> 
> Me too.  Sadly, Yahoo has recently (28 March) compounded their mess,
> probably necessitating an update to workarounds on some Mailman
> installations.


This should have no effect on Mailman 2.1.18+ installations since the
deprecated 'from_is_list' mitigations apply to all list mail and the
recommended 'dmarc_moderation_action' mitigations already check the
From: domain's DMARC policy.

There is one bug at <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1549420>
that is fixed in 2.1.21. Prior to that, if a message was From: a
subdomain of an 'organizational domain' and the subdomain didn't publish
a DMARC policy, the organizational domain wasn't checked for
dmarc_moderation_action. Beginning in 2.1.21 it is checked.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lists at damorris.com  Sat Apr  9 21:58:18 2016
From: lists at damorris.com (Adam Morris)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 11:58:18 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman list messages being rejected by spam
 experts?
Message-ID: <5709B33A.8060806@damorris.com>

Hi all,

I have a couple of lists set up through my hosting provider.

One list with less than 200 members has most messages sent to it 
rejected by spam experts and the user gets an error message saying the 
message was rejected because it had a high probability of spam.

Another list I have with over 200 people has no issues.
I haven't made any changes to either list so think it is something spam 
experts have done.

My ISP has been trying to work this out for over a week.

Any suggestions?


-- 


Adam Morris

email:
adam at damorris.com


		


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Apr 10 10:48:36 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 07:48:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman list messages being rejected by spam
 experts?
In-Reply-To: <5709B33A.8060806@damorris.com>
References: <5709B33A.8060806@damorris.com>
Message-ID: <570A67C4.80403@msapiro.net>

On 04/09/2016 06:58 PM, Adam Morris wrote:
> 
> I have a couple of lists set up through my hosting provider.
> ...
> I haven't made any changes to either list so think it is something spam
> experts have done.
> 
> My ISP has been trying to work this out for over a week.
> 
> Any suggestions?

Yes. Keep working with your ISP. Presumably, SpamExperts is filtering
all mail before it ever gets to Mailman, so unless it is actually
filtering by recipient, there should be no difference.

Possibly each recipient address (list) has it's own SpamExpert settings
and one list has a tighter setting than the other.

Possibly it has to do with the subject matter of the two lists.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Apr 10 12:19:50 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 01:19:50 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Yahoo extends DMARC p=reject to other domains
In-Reply-To: <57095078.6030102@gn.apc.org>
References: <4D3112EB-BFF0-41C1-AFF7-485D2BBCA0EF@rc.org>
 <55610FC2.2000202@msapiro.net> <57095078.6030102@gn.apc.org>
Message-ID: <22282.32038.65627.635167@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Cedric Knight writes:
 > On 23/05/15 22:45, Allan Hansen wrote:
 > > I have waited almost a year for AOL and Yahoo to admit that they
 > > messed up and to remove their DMARC policy.
 > 
 > Me too.

For some good news: people working with DMARC have come up with a
protocol that may help lists with good reputations, and Mailman will
implement it this summer.

Now the bad news: they're not going to revert to p=none.  From
management's point of view, p=reject is a rather good solution to a
nasty problem.  The massive leaks of address books that made "referral
from a friend spam" possible means they're committed to this
indefinitely, unless they do away with their traditional email
addresses (ie, @aol.com and @yahoo.com).  But that could cost them
hundreds of millions of users.

It's certainly true that Yahoo! admins have stated that their little
April Fool's joke didn't cost them any users to speak of, which is all
that management really worried about, in view of the huge costs (both
technical -- a spike in mail flows to Yahoo! of 6X the normal level --
and reputational -- the huge amount of directed spam that was being
sent to correspondents of Yahoo users everywhere) involved in doing
nothing.

A year and a bit later Ms. Zwicky (who arguably is doing her best for
both Yahoo! users and Yahoo!'s bottom line, if lacking a little on the
corporate social responsibility side) said that they were still
getting probes that indicated that the spammers were ready to restart
their "campaigns" if p=reject were ever relaxed.  So they aren't going
to do that.

 > Sadly, Yahoo has recently (28 March) compounded their mess,

I guess their take on the current situation, two years later, is that
any indirect mailflows that they haven't already killed outright are
prepared to deal with this extension.

Anyway, I would say that any large email provider that keeps user
"friend" data on their servers (rather than on the user's machine)
needs to be prepared to publish p=reject in the event they get
cracked.  You don't have to like the situation, but don't waste
neurons hoping it will go away.

Steve



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 12 20:47:12 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 17:47:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Robotic subscription attacks
Message-ID: <570D9710.7070901@msapiro.net>

There have been discussions of these robotic subscribes on this list in
the past. Up until a couple of days ago, the ban_list or GLOBAL_BAN_LIST
regexp '^.*\+\d{4,}@' i.e., any email address whose local part ends with
'+' followed by 4 or more digits) has been effective at blocking
virtually all of them I've seen.

Now there is a new pattern. So far all the new ones I've seen match
'^[a-z]{4,}\.?[a-z]{4,}\+[a-z]{4,}@gmail\.com$'. Some examples are

dramaalertbiz+<letters>@gmail.com
kemo.mart+<letters>@gmail.com
kezukaya+<letters>@gmail.com
killerkeemstar+<letters>@gmail.com
leafylagann+<letters>@gmail.com
newdramaalert+<letters>@gmail.com
ooktap.yaylea+<letters>@gmail.com
ubercoffeetime+<letters>@gmail.com

where <letters> is a string of 4 or more random letters.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jimpop at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 08:27:17 2016
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 08:27:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Robotic subscription attacks
In-Reply-To: <570D9710.7070901@msapiro.net>
References: <570D9710.7070901@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR0U0P2RCPXtwifC6-vewRzWn+ikawPZyVUaSn4rO8xbQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> There have been discussions of these robotic subscribes on this list in
> the past. Up until a couple of days ago, the ban_list or GLOBAL_BAN_LIST
> regexp '^.*\+\d{4,}@' i.e., any email address whose local part ends with
> '+' followed by 4 or more digits) has been effective at blocking
> virtually all of them I've seen.
>
> Now there is a new pattern. So far all the new ones I've seen match
> '^[a-z]{4,}\.?[a-z]{4,}\+[a-z]{4,}@gmail\.com$'. Some examples are
>
> dramaalertbiz+<letters>@gmail.com
> kemo.mart+<letters>@gmail.com
> kezukaya+<letters>@gmail.com
> killerkeemstar+<letters>@gmail.com
> leafylagann+<letters>@gmail.com
> newdramaalert+<letters>@gmail.com
> ooktap.yaylea+<letters>@gmail.com
> ubercoffeetime+<letters>@gmail.com
>

LOL, Youtube childishness is leaking into the real world.

-Jim P.

From larry at acbradio.org  Wed Apr 13 10:30:08 2016
From: larry at acbradio.org (Larry Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 14:30:08 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] implicit destination
Message-ID: <05b701d19590$fa428df0$eec7a9d0$@acbradio.org>

Hi all:

 

On one of my mailman lists a subscriber's messages keeps getting held for
moderator approval with the implicit destination error.

 

I went in to the privacy recipient settings and set the ceiling to 0.

 

Are there any other settings I can adjust to keep this error from occurring?

 

Larry

 



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr 13 11:07:53 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 08:07:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] implicit destination
In-Reply-To: <05b701d19590$fa428df0$eec7a9d0$@acbradio.org>
References: <05b701d19590$fa428df0$eec7a9d0$@acbradio.org>
Message-ID: <570E60C9.7080806@msapiro.net>

On 4/13/16 7:30 AM, Larry Turnbull wrote:
> 
> On one of my mailman lists a subscriber's messages keeps getting held for
> moderator approval with the implicit destination error.


This occurs because the list is not explicitly addressed in a To: or Cc:
header of the post. E.g., the post is sent as a Bcc: to the list.The
real question is why is this one person sending to the list this way?


> I went in to the privacy recipient settings and set the ceiling to 0.


That's the one setting on the page that doesn't affect this. You can
stop all implicit destination holds by setting
require_explicit_destination to No.

Also, if posts sent to a different address are relayed to the list, you
can add the different address to acceptable_aliases to avoid an implicit
destination hold for posts relayed from that address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From ricardo at americasnet.com  Wed Apr 13 14:22:05 2016
From: ricardo at americasnet.com (Ricardo Kleemann)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 11:22:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC bouncing of yahoo and hotmail users
Message-ID: <CALR4AhTZU2WYm1hyrnJV77+zis-0tQWjRKX_kaMz+k6h7mqcGg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I've started noticing bounces to yahoo and hotmail users with this
rejection message:

 Unfortunately, messages from (xxx) on behalf of (yahoo.com.br) could not
be delivered due to domain owner policy restrictions. (in reply to end of
DATA command))

In researching this problem I found this thread:

http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/OSGeo-1454-mailman-Mass-bouncing-of-yahoo-user-subscriptions-td5181289.html

>From the thread it seems to indicate that Mailman v2.1.19 would have a
workaround for the issue.

First, does anyone know if the updates in Mailman do indeed address the
issue?

Second, my server is running Ubuntu linux with Mailman v2.1.16 and I'm not
able to update to a new version via the apt-get command since this version
of Ubuntu has v2.1.16 as the "latest". Is it safe for me to update Mailman
via a tarball and not mess up the packaged installation?

thanks
Ricardo

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr 13 18:06:16 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 15:06:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC bouncing of yahoo and hotmail users
In-Reply-To: <CALR4AhTZU2WYm1hyrnJV77+zis-0tQWjRKX_kaMz+k6h7mqcGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALR4AhTZU2WYm1hyrnJV77+zis-0tQWjRKX_kaMz+k6h7mqcGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <570EC2D8.6040603@msapiro.net>

On 4/13/16 11:22 AM, Ricardo Kleemann wrote:
> 
> I've started noticing bounces to yahoo and hotmail users with this
> rejection message:
> 
>  Unfortunately, messages from (xxx) on behalf of (yahoo.com.br) could not
> be delivered due to domain owner policy restrictions. (in reply to end of
> DATA command))


Yahoo recently started applying DMARC p=reject to more domains. See
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2016-April/080678.html>.


> In researching this problem I found this thread:
> 
> http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/OSGeo-1454-mailman-Mass-bouncing-of-yahoo-user-subscriptions-td5181289.html
> 
>>From the thread it seems to indicate that Mailman v2.1.19 would have a
> workaround for the issue.
> 
> First, does anyone know if the updates in Mailman do indeed address the
> issue?


There have been workarounds for this issue since 2.1.16, but they didn't
get serious until 2.1.18 and have seen continuous tweaking since then.

See the FAQ articles at <http://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>


> Second, my server is running Ubuntu linux with Mailman v2.1.16 and I'm not
> able to update to a new version via the apt-get command since this version
> of Ubuntu has v2.1.16 as the "latest". Is it safe for me to update Mailman
> via a tarball and not mess up the packaged installation?


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/17891606>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Apr 14 04:59:34 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:59:34 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC bouncing of yahoo and hotmail users
In-Reply-To: <570EC2D8.6040603@msapiro.net>
References: <CALR4AhTZU2WYm1hyrnJV77+zis-0tQWjRKX_kaMz+k6h7mqcGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <570EC2D8.6040603@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22287.23542.793463.752055@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > There have been workarounds for this issue since 2.1.16, but they didn't
 > get serious until 2.1.18 and have seen continuous tweaking since
 > then.

In other words, Mark is too modest.  Get 2.1.latest (.20, I think?),
'cause Maintainer Markie kicks a--!

Technically, he's right, they're tweaks, but as a user experience life
is truly better.  If you need to upgrade, get the latest.


From sean at rogue-research.com  Thu Apr 14 09:32:44 2016
From: sean at rogue-research.com (Sean McBride)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:32:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
Message-ID: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>

Hi all,

I'm setting up mailman for the first time, and have a few questions/comments:

- the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a standard Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix versions up to and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?

- I'm doing this on OS X, and notice the docs for that OS are all *very* out of date.  Would you accept a patch to update the docs?

- OS X's native equivalent of cron is launchd, would you accept launchd config files matching those of crontab.in for inclusion?

Thanks,

-- 
____________________________________________________________
Sean McBride, B. Eng                 sean at rogue-research.com
Rogue Research                        www.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer              Montr?al, Qu?bec, Canada



From publicmailing at ccn.li  Wed Apr 13 13:19:44 2016
From: publicmailing at ccn.li (=?UTF-8?Q?Manuel_V=c3=b6gele?=)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 19:19:44 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate entry: "mailman@lists.example.org" in
 virtual-mailman.db
Message-ID: <672ef53a-acae-dc31-0b2c-5b6a3ed6f779@ccn.li>

Hi everyone.

I just set up a mailman installation and almost everything is working as
expected.

However everytime i create a new mailing list mailman prints the
following warning:

postmap: warning: /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman.db: duplicate
entry: "mailman at lists.example.org"

Indeed the virtual-mailman file generated by mailman contains multiple
mailman at lists.example.org entries:

------------ file: virtual-mailman ------------

# This file is generated by Mailman, and is kept in sync with the binary
hash
# file virtual-mailman.db.  YOU SHOULD NOT MANUALLY EDIT THIS FILE
unless you
# know what you're doing, and can keep the two files properly in sync.
If you
# screw it up, you're on your own.
#
# Note that you should already have this virtual domain set up properly in
# your Postfix installation.  See README.POSTFIX for details.

# LOOP ADDRESSES START
mailman-loop at lists.example.org       mailman-loop at localhost
# LOOP ADDRESSES END

# We also add the site list address in each virtual domain as that address
# is exposed on admin and listinfo overviews.
# SITE ADDRESSES START
mailman at lists.example.org    mailman
# SITE ADDRESSES END

# STANZA START: mailman
# CREATED: Wed Apr 13 16:33:48 2016
mailman at lists.example.org              mailman at localhost
mailman-admin at lists.example.org        mailman-admin at localhost
mailman-bounces at lists.example.org      mailman-bounces at localhost
mailman-confirm at lists.example.org      mailman-confirm at localhost
mailman-join at lists.example.org         mailman-join at localhost
mailman-leave at lists.example.org        mailman-leave at localhost
mailman-owner at lists.example.org        mailman-owner at localhost
mailman-request at lists.example.org      mailman-request at localhost
mailman-subscribe at lists.example.org    mailman-subscribe at localhost
mailman-unsubscribe at lists.example.org  mailman-unsubscribe at localhost
# STANZA END: mailman

--------- end of file: virtual-mailman --------

Why does that happen? Additionaly mailman didn't append @localhost to
the alias in the site adresses block which causes postfix to append
@example.org which leads to the invalid alias mailman at example.org.

I'm using Mailman version 2.1.21. This is my is my configuration:


--------------- file: mm_cfg.py ---------------

from Defaults import *

DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.example.org'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.example.org'
VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN = 'localhost'

VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.example.org']

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/'
PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://%(hostname)s/archives/%(listname)s'

MTA = 'Postfix'

------------ end of file: mm_cfg.py -----------

What am I doing wrong?

Manuel

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 14 11:58:04 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 08:58:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate entry: "mailman@lists.example.org" in
 virtual-mailman.db
In-Reply-To: <672ef53a-acae-dc31-0b2c-5b6a3ed6f779@ccn.li>
References: <672ef53a-acae-dc31-0b2c-5b6a3ed6f779@ccn.li>
Message-ID: <570FBE0C.4020101@msapiro.net>

On 04/13/2016 10:19 AM, Manuel V?gele wrote:
> 
> Indeed the virtual-mailman file generated by mailman contains multiple
> mailman at lists.example.org entries:
> 
> ------------ file: virtual-mailman ------------
> 
...
> # We also add the site list address in each virtual domain as that address
> # is exposed on admin and listinfo overviews.
> # SITE ADDRESSES START
> mailman at lists.example.org    mailman
> # SITE ADDRESSES END
> 
> # STANZA START: mailman
> # CREATED: Wed Apr 13 16:33:48 2016
> mailman at lists.example.org              mailman at localhost
...
> 
> --------- end of file: virtual-mailman --------
> 
> Why does that happen? Additionaly mailman didn't append @localhost to
> the alias in the site adresses block which causes postfix to append
> @example.org which leads to the invalid alias mailman at example.org.
> 
> I'm using Mailman version 2.1.21. This is my is my configuration:
> 
> 
> --------------- file: mm_cfg.py ---------------
> 
> from Defaults import *
> 
> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.example.org'
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.example.org'
> VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN = 'localhost'

The above is not necessary in 'usual' Postfix configurations. I.e., the
aliases file contains things like

mailman: "|/path/to/mailman/mail/mailman post mailman"

So that a virtual mapping

mailman at lists.example.org    mailman

says deliver mail originally To: mailman at lists.example.org to the local
address 'mailman' and the alias says how to deliver that.

Also, postmap is not complaining about the bare 'mailman' vs.
'mailman at localhost'. Even if that were generated as 'mailman at localhost',
postmap would still complain because there are two entries for
'mailman at lists.example.org'

> 
> ------------ end of file: mm_cfg.py -----------
> 
> What am I doing wrong?


Nothing really. You have just discovered two bugs. First, the appending
of VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN should also be applied in the SITE
ADDRESSES stanza, and the addition of the SITE ADDRESSES stanza doesn't
anticipate that the site list itself is in a virtual domain.

I'll fix these bugs. In the mean time, you can try two things.

Change the "Host name this list prefers for email." (host_name)
attribute on the 'mailman' list's web admin General Options page from
'lists.example.org' to just 'example.org' and also try removing the

VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN = 'localhost'

line from mm_cfg.py. Then run Mailman's bin/genaliases. The first change
will remove the 'mailman' list stanza from virtual-mailman and postmap
will stop complaining, and the second change will remove the (I think
unnecessary) @localhost appendages from all the local addresses. If it
turns out for some reason that @localhost is required, you can restore
that line to mm_cfg.py and run genaliases again.	

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Apr 14 12:03:18 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 01:03:18 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
Message-ID: <22287.48966.5896.546291@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Sean McBride writes:

 > I'm assuming that version number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman
 > work with modern postfix?

Yes and yes.  Beware the Debian mailman-to-postfix.py script,
however.  (There's a FAQ about it at http://wiki.list.org/FAQ
somewhere.)

 > - I'm doing this on OS X, and notice the docs for that OS are all
 >   *very* out of date.  Would you accept a patch to update the docs?

If you're working with Mailman 2, dubious.  There may never be another
release of Mailman 2 (but Mark is authoritative).  And Mac OS X has
been somewhat unkind to us (Apple's Mailman has been a long-term
source of support requests to which we mostly have to reply "uuuhhh
... install from source and we'll get back to you, Apple's Mailman is
*weird*".

Mailman 3 docs would be very welcome.

 > - OS X's native equivalent of cron is launchd, would you accept
 >   launchd config files matching those of crontab.in for inclusion?

I don't know if Mark will, but I will definitely ensure they get into
Mailman 3, or at least are well-documented (Barry makes the decisions
about code, but docs are always welcome).

Question for you: last I heard, the "launchctl load -w" approach was
deprecated by Apple, but there was no well-documented replacement.
Worse, there was no replacement that actually worked in my
experience. ;-)  Has that situation improved?

Note: Mailman likely has to work on at least Yosemite, possibly
Mavericks or even Mountain Lion.  Knowing Apple, even if there's a
working canonical incantation for the most recent El Capitan, likely
it hasn't been backported. :-(




From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 14 12:07:29 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:07:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
Message-ID: <570FC041.1060903@msapiro.net>

On 04/14/2016 06:32 AM, Sean McBride wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm setting up mailman for the first time, and have a few questions/comments:
> 
> - the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a standard Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix versions up to and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?


Yes. I will update the installation manual.


> - I'm doing this on OS X, and notice the docs for that OS are all *very* out of date.  Would you accept a patch to update the docs?
> 
> - OS X's native equivalent of cron is launchd, would you accept launchd config files matching those of crontab.in for inclusion?


I am guessing the Mac OS X docs you refer to are the wiki page at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/4030523>. If so, you can update that yourself.
See the first paragraph at <http://wiki.list.org/FrontPage> to obtain
write access to the wiki.

In any case, if there are other places that need updating, let me know.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From sean at rogue-research.com  Thu Apr 14 13:18:02 2016
From: sean at rogue-research.com (Sean McBride)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:18:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <22287.48966.5896.546291@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <22287.48966.5896.546291@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160414171802.1798559340@mail.rogue-research.com>

On Fri, 15 Apr 2016 01:03:18 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull said:

>If you're working with Mailman 2, dubious.  There may never be another
>release of Mailman 2 (but Mark is authoritative).  And Mac OS X has
>been somewhat unkind to us (Apple's Mailman has been a long-term
>source of support requests to which we mostly have to reply "uuuhhh
>... install from source and we'll get back to you, Apple's Mailman is
>*weird*".

Yes, I've heard.  Of course, Apple hasn't included mailman since OS X 10.6, and likely never will again given their dislike of GPL3.

>Mailman 3 docs would be very welcome.

I'm sticking with 2 for now, as I'm familiar with its web UI and it seems better documented, more widely used, less bleeding edge, etc. :)

> > - OS X's native equivalent of cron is launchd, would you accept
> >   launchd config files matching those of crontab.in for inclusion?
>
>I don't know if Mark will, but I will definitely ensure they get into
>Mailman 3, or at least are well-documented (Barry makes the decisions
>about code, but docs are always welcome).
>
>Question for you: last I heard, the "launchctl load -w" approach was
>deprecated by Apple, but there was no well-documented replacement.
>Worse, there was no replacement that actually worked in my
>experience. ;-)  Has that situation improved?

I'm not aware of the problems you refer to.  "launchctl load -w" works fine in my experience, though the details of exactly how it works have changed between releases.  Like the man page says: "In previous versions, this option would modify the configuration file. Now the state of the Disabled key is stored elsewhere on-disk..."  Perhaps that's what you're talking about?

>Note: Mailman likely has to work on at least Yosemite, possibly
>Mavericks or even Mountain Lion.  Knowing Apple, even if there's a
>working canonical incantation for the most recent El Capitan, likely
>it hasn't been backported. :-(

I'll be doing this on El Capitan.  So far I can say that mailman builds. :)

I guess I'll keep notes, and share them here when done.

Cheers,

-- 
____________________________________________________________
Sean McBride, B. Eng                 sean at rogue-research.com
Rogue Research                        www.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer              Montr?al, Qu?bec, Canada



From publicmailing at ccn.li  Thu Apr 14 13:54:43 2016
From: publicmailing at ccn.li (=?UTF-8?Q?Manuel_V=c3=b6gele?=)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 19:54:43 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate entry: "mailman@lists.example.org" in
 virtual-mailman.db
In-Reply-To: <570FBE0C.4020101@msapiro.net>
References: <672ef53a-acae-dc31-0b2c-5b6a3ed6f779@ccn.li>
 <570FBE0C.4020101@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <3c5ca098-0cb6-26cd-1438-b3304d2c40cf@ccn.li>

Thanks for your help.

I cannot remove the @localhost mapping because that would cause postfix
to append @example.org which is then handled by dovecot (and thus will
fail). This is also the reason wh i can't put @example.org as the
preferred host for the list. However since this is caused by a bug which
will eventually be fixed i decided to workaround it with a manually
created mapping

mailman at lists.example.org mailman at localhost

which supersedes the faulty entry created by mailman.

From cmupythia at cmu.edu  Thu Apr 14 13:36:30 2016
From: cmupythia at cmu.edu (Gretchen R Beck)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:36:30 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Suggestions for handling archive growth
Message-ID: <1460655353298.25589@cmu.edu>

Hi Folks,


As our archives approach a terabyte in size, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions or tips for handling archive growth and storage. I've got some ideas, but am wondering what others might be doing.  Just as background, we have a few thousand lists, and support a mid-sized university population, with list creation open to faculty, staff, and students.


If there is a better place to ask this question, please point me there.


Thanks!


Gretchen Beck

Carnegie Mellon

From sean at rogue-research.com  Thu Apr 14 15:57:48 2016
From: sean at rogue-research.com (Sean McBride)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:57:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <570FC041.1060903@msapiro.net>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <570FC041.1060903@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160414195748.727401436@mail.rogue-research.com>

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:07:29 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:

>> - the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a
>standard Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix
>versions up to and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version
>number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?
>
>
>Yes. I will update the installation manual.

Thanks!

>I am guessing the Mac OS X docs you refer to are the wiki page at
><http://wiki.list.org/x/4030523>.

Yes, and also section 15.3 of mailman-install.pdf.

>If so, you can update that yourself.
>See the first paragraph at <http://wiki.list.org/FrontPage> to obtain
>write access to the wiki.

email sent, thanks.

Cheers,

-- 
____________________________________________________________
Sean McBride, B. Eng                 sean at rogue-research.com
Rogue Research                        www.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer              Montr?al, Qu?bec, Canada



From luscheina at yahoo.de  Thu Apr 14 16:43:36 2016
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:43:36 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New Mailman lists - inform users
Message-ID: <20160414224336113215.4069e3f0@yahoo.de>

Hi all 

We have moved 3 mailing lists from another system to a Mailman installation (Mailman version 2.1.20). All user addresses have been imported from the old installation, so a user should not notice the new software - unless he wants to change something in his subscription. 

Therefore it would be helpful if we could mass-mail the same "welcome"-message which is usually sent to new subscribers. 

What are our possibilities here? Or can all subscribers ask themselves for such a message?

Thank you, Christian 


-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From srb at umich.edu  Thu Apr 14 17:04:00 2016
From: srb at umich.edu (Steve Burling)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:04:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <22287.48966.5896.546291@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <22287.48966.5896.546291@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <3E64CD22-9DDD-4270-8CA4-457630EE53F5@umich.edu>

On 14 Apr 2016, at 12:03, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> If you're working with Mailman 2, dubious.  There may never be another
> release of Mailman 2 (but Mark is authoritative).  And Mac OS X has
> been somewhat unkind to us (Apple's Mailman has been a long-term
> source of support requests to which we mostly have to reply "uuuhhh
> ... install from source and we'll get back to you, Apple's Mailman is
> *weird*".

You know, I've heard this for years, but some time ago (a long time ago, 
now that I think of it :-) I diff'd the Apple-supplied Mailman with the 
appropriate source tarball, and they were essentially identical. I think 
the only thing that was different was the startup script.

-- Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 14 17:16:33 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:16:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <20160414195748.727401436@mail.rogue-research.com>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <570FC041.1060903@msapiro.net>
 <20160414195748.727401436@mail.rogue-research.com>
Message-ID: <571008B1.3030906@msapiro.net>

On 04/14/2016 12:57 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:07:29 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:
> 
>>> - the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a
>> standard Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix
>> versions up to and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version
>> number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?
>>
>>
>> Yes. I will update the installation manual.


I've done that now in the online versions (refresh the page if it isn't
the 'April 14' version. The update will be in the tarball of the next
(2.1.22) release.


> Thanks!
> 
>> I am guessing the Mac OS X docs you refer to are the wiki page at
>> <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030523>.
> 
> Yes, and also section 15.3 of mailman-install.pdf.


That section has a highlighted note at the top saying: "Much of the
following is no longer applicable to more recent versions of MacOSX. See
the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/O4A9 for links to more recent
information." I think that's sufficient.


>> If so, you can update that yourself.
>> See the first paragraph at <http://wiki.list.org/FrontPage> to obtain
>> write access to the wiki.
> 
> email sent, thanks.


You also need to register as a user and let us know your registered user
name.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 14 17:30:38 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:30:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New Mailman lists - inform users
In-Reply-To: <20160414224336113215.4069e3f0@yahoo.de>
References: <20160414224336113215.4069e3f0@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <57100BFE.9080607@msapiro.net>

On 04/14/2016 01:43 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Therefore it would be helpful if we could mass-mail the same "welcome"-message which is usually sent to new subscribers. 
> 
> What are our possibilities here? Or can all subscribers ask themselves for such a message?


See the script at <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/get_welcome>
(mirrored at <https://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/get_welcome>. It
only does one user at a time, but ou could do something like:

#~/bin/bash
for list in `mailman/bin/list_lists --bare`; do
    for user in `mailman/bin/list_members $list`; do
        mailman/bin/get_welcome --mail $list $user
    done
done

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From sean at rogue-research.com  Thu Apr 14 17:53:26 2016
From: sean at rogue-research.com (Sean McBride)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:53:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <571008B1.3030906@msapiro.net>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <570FC041.1060903@msapiro.net>
 <20160414195748.727401436@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <571008B1.3030906@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160414215326.1281620560@mail.rogue-research.com>

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:16:33 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:

>I've done that now in the online versions (refresh the page if it isn't
>the 'April 14' version. The update will be in the tarball of the next
>(2.1.22) release.

Nice!

>That section has a highlighted note at the top saying: "Much of the
>following is no longer applicable to more recent versions of MacOSX. See
>the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/O4A9 for links to more recent
>information." I think that's sufficient.

Up to you of course, but everything after that useful first sentence is so incredibly out of date that there's really no point having it there. :)  All the OS X versions mentioned there have had no security updates in years, so running something like mailman on them would be insanity, and should be discouraged IMHO. :)

But let me write my currently vapourwave newer notes and you can decide then if you want to paste it in...

>You also need to register as a user and let us know your registered user
>name.

Yes, sorry, I read too fast.  Done that too now. :)

Cheers,

-- 
____________________________________________________________
Sean McBride, B. Eng                 sean at rogue-research.com
Rogue Research                        www.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer              Montr?al, Qu?bec, Canada



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 14 18:27:46 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:27:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <20160414215326.1281620560@mail.rogue-research.com>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <570FC041.1060903@msapiro.net>
 <20160414195748.727401436@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <571008B1.3030906@msapiro.net>
 <20160414215326.1281620560@mail.rogue-research.com>
Message-ID: <57101962.4080609@msapiro.net>

On 04/14/2016 02:53 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:16:33 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:
> 
>> You also need to register as a user and let us know your registered user
>> name.
> 
> Yes, sorry, I read too fast.  Done that too now. :)


And you now should have permission.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cpz at tuunq.com  Thu Apr 14 18:36:20 2016
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:36:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Suggestions for handling archive growth
In-Reply-To: <1460655353298.25589@cmu.edu>
References: <1460655353298.25589@cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <57101B64.5020307@tuunq.com>

On 4/14/2016 10:36 AM, Gretchen R Beck wrote:

> As our archives approach a terabyte in size, I was wondering if anyone
> had suggestions or tips for handling archive growth and storage. I've got
> some ideas, but am wondering what others might be doing.  Just as
> background, we have a few thousand lists, and support a mid-sized
> university population, with list creation open to faculty, staff, and
> students.

My first thoughts involve purging old/unused lists, message retention 
policies, whether attachments have been scrubbed- that sort of thing. Are 
there single lists that have -huge- archives or are there just a lot of 
lists with small archives?

For instance, if none of a list's members are still active accounts, does it 
make sense to keep the archive online, or to retain it at all?

z!

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 14 19:33:41 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:33:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate entry: "mailman@lists.example.org" in
 virtual-mailman.db
In-Reply-To: <570FBE0C.4020101@msapiro.net>
References: <672ef53a-acae-dc31-0b2c-5b6a3ed6f779@ccn.li>
 <570FBE0C.4020101@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <571028D5.7090300@msapiro.net>

On 04/14/2016 08:58 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 04/13/2016 10:19 AM, Manuel V?gele wrote:
>>
>> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> 
> Nothing really. You have just discovered two bugs. First, the appending
> of VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN should also be applied in the SITE
> ADDRESSES stanza, and the addition of the SITE ADDRESSES stanza doesn't
> anticipate that the site list itself is in a virtual domain.
> 
> I'll fix these bugs.


This is reported as a single bug at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1570630>. It is fixed and the
fix is
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1642>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Apr 14 20:22:40 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 09:22:40 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <20160414171802.1798559340@mail.rogue-research.com>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <22287.48966.5896.546291@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160414171802.1798559340@mail.rogue-research.com>
Message-ID: <22288.13392.5587.773780@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Sean McBride writes:

 > I'm not aware of the problems you refer to.  "launchctl load -w"
 > works fine in my experience, though the details of exactly how it
 > works have changed between releases.  Like the man page says: "In
 > previous versions, this option would modify the configuration
 > file. Now the state of the Disabled key is stored elsewhere
 > on-disk..."  Perhaps that's what you're talking about?

Well, "load" is described in a section labeled "Legacy Subcommands",
which begins with dark hints about unimplemented commands.  It does
work for me, but what I read in a thread on the Apple site was that
Apple doesn't promise to ensure that the legacy commands will continue
to work.  On the other hand, the recipe given there involving
bootstrap, enable, and kickstart, did what I expected only erratically.

As long as load still works I'm happy.


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr 15 00:18:27 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:18:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Suggestions for handling archive growth
In-Reply-To: <1460655353298.25589@cmu.edu>
References: <1460655353298.25589@cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <57106B93.9050704@msapiro.net>

On 04/14/2016 10:36 AM, Gretchen R Beck wrote:
> 
> As our archives approach a terabyte in size, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions or tips for handling archive growth and storage. I've got some ideas, but am wondering what others might be doing.  Just as background, we have a few thousand lists, and support a mid-sized university population, with list creation open to faculty, staff, and students.


It won't help a lot, but remove all the periodic .txt.gz files and
remove the cron/nightly_gzip job from Mailman's crontab. While the
.txt.gz files conceivably save bandwidth when the files are downloaded,
they serve no other useful purpose. The .txt files they come from are
all still there.

If you want to 'prune' older messages from the archives, there is a
script at <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/prune_arch> (mirrored at
https://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/prune_arch) that can help with that.

Depending on list configuration, but with normal defaults, there will be
two copies of each scrubbed attachment in the
archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/ directory. This is because when
scrub_nondigest is No and the list is digestable, the non-plain-text
attachments are scrubbed both from the archive and from the plain text
digest. After a while, the ones whose links were in the plain text
digest are probably not needed any more as few if any copies of the
original digests still exist, and the attachment can always be found via
the archive link.

The trick here is to identify which attachments were scrubbed from a
digest and can therefore be removed.

On the other hand, these days you can buy a couple of terabytes worth of
HDD for $100 US so maybe that's an easier way to go.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From sean at rogue-research.com  Fri Apr 15 15:12:07 2016
From: sean at rogue-research.com (Sean McBride)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:12:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <57101962.4080609@msapiro.net>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <570FC041.1060903@msapiro.net>
 <20160414195748.727401436@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <571008B1.3030906@msapiro.net>
 <20160414215326.1281620560@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <57101962.4080609@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160415191207.1334863882@mail.rogue-research.com>

Hi again,

Another comment and question if I may:

1) The mailman-install.pdf has text like this:

------------
Add this to the bottom of the ?$prefix/Mailman/mm cfg.py? file:
  MTA = ?Postfix?
------------

It would be nice to be able to copy-paste that exactly, but alas the pdf use smart quotes, which is of course not what Python wants.


2) Does postfix need to be on the same host as Mailman?


Thanks,

-- 
____________________________________________________________
Sean McBride, B. Eng                 sean at rogue-research.com
Rogue Research                        www.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer              Montr?al, Qu?bec, Canada

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Apr 15 15:47:34 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:47:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <20160415191207.1334863882@mail.rogue-research.com>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <570FC041.1060903@msapiro.net>
 <20160414195748.727401436@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <571008B1.3030906@msapiro.net>
 <20160414215326.1281620560@mail.rogue-research.com>
 <57101962.4080609@msapiro.net>
 <20160415191207.1334863882@mail.rogue-research.com>
Message-ID: <57114556.1050001@msapiro.net>

On 04/15/2016 12:12 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> Hi again,
> 
> Another comment and question if I may:
> 
> 1) The mailman-install.pdf has text like this:
> 
> ------------
> Add this to the bottom of the ?$prefix/Mailman/mm cfg.py? file:
>   MTA = ?Postfix?
> ------------
> 
> It would be nice to be able to copy-paste that exactly, but alas the pdf use smart quotes, which is of course not what Python wants.


This is a function of the software (pdflatex) that creates the pdf from
the Tex input file. The actual source is

      \begin{verbatim}
        MTA = 'Postfix'
      \end{verbatim}

with apostrophes. Both the mailman-install.txt file in the tarball and
the HTML in the tarball and online at, e.g.
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/postfix-integration.html> have
ascii apostrophes


> 2) Does postfix need to be on the same host as Mailman?


Not necessarily. The outgoing MTA is specified by the
Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py settings SMTPHOST and SMTPPORT and can be
anywhere. There are patches available, e.g.,
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558281> to enable Mailman to do
authentication if required.

The incoming MTA is more problematic. It needs to put the incoming mail
somewhere where a process on the Mailman host (e.g., fetchmail) can
retrieve it and deliver to Mailman. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/17891892>.

IMO, a better solution if possible, i.e., if you can control the 'main'
MTA, is to run an MTA on the Mailman host whose sole job is to deliver
to Mailman the list mail relayed from the 'main' MTA and to relay
outgoing mail back.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From heller at deepsoft.com  Fri Apr 15 15:37:00 2016
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:37:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman,
 some misc questions/comments
In-Reply-To: <20160415191207.1334863882@mail.rogue-research.com>
References: <20160414133244.1052446398@mail.rogue-research.com> 
 <570FC041.1060903@msapiro.net> 
 <20160414195748.727401436@mail.rogue-research.com> 
 <571008B1.3030906@msapiro.net> 
 <20160414215326.1281620560@mail.rogue-research.com> 
 <57101962.4080609@msapiro.net> 
 <20160415191207.1334863882@mail.rogue-research.com>
Message-ID: <201604151937.u3FJb0TJ013173@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

At Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:12:07 -0400 "Sean McBride" <sean at rogue-research.com> wrote:

> 
> Hi again,
> 
> Another comment and question if I may:
> 
> 1) The mailman-install.pdf has text like this:
> 
> ------------
> Add this to the bottom of the `$prefix/Mailman/mm cfg.py' file:
>   MTA = `Postfix'
> ------------
> 
> It would be nice to be able to copy-paste that exactly, but alas the pdf use
> smart quotes, which is of course not what Python wants.

There really should be a *plain text* INSTALL (and/or README) file for just 
this purpose.  The mailman 2.1.16 RPM I built for EL5 includes a 
INSTALL.REDHAT in /usr/share/doc/mailman-2.1.16/ as well as several README's 
and a FAQ file.  There is also a mailman-admin.txt file in 
/usr/share/doc/mailman-2.1.16/admin/doc/ and a mailman-install.txt file in 
/usr/share/doc/mailman-2.1.16/admin/doc/.  I expect that the *plain text* 
files have plain old ASCII quotes.

I don't know if newer versions of Mailman include these 'text' files or not.  
I expect that they do.

> 
> 
> 2) Does postfix need to be on the same host as Mailman?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                                

From steve at tunedinweb.com  Fri Apr 15 18:40:58 2016
From: steve at tunedinweb.com (Steve Wehr)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 18:40:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Command output: post script, list not found: XXXXX
Message-ID: <03ec01d19767$e13445a0$a39cd0e0$@com>

First of all I apologize of there is already ananswer to this question. I
have been googling and reading your doc for days in hopes of finding an
answer.

 

I was running mailman successfully for years on my server. Then this week I
cut over to a new server and hired someone to install the latest version of
mailman and migrate all my existing lists. This mostly works.

 

I can run /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_lists and all my lists are displayed. I
can use the mailman admin page to list all my lists and I can edit each of
them from there.

 

But when I try to send email to any list, my email is sent back to me with
the following message:

 

<Test at tunedinweb.com>: Command died with status 1:

    "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post test". Command output: post script,

    list not found: test

 

I have run: 

root: /usr/lib/mailman/bin>sudo -u mail /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post
test </dev/null

post script, list not found: test

 

and:

root: /var/lib/mailman/lists>ls -ld test

drwxrwsr-x 2 apache mailman 4096 Apr 15 17:35 test

root: /var/lib/mailman/lists>ls -l test

total 20

-rw-rw---- 1 apache mailman 5061 Apr 15 17:35 config.pck

-rw-rw---- 1 apache mailman 5060 Apr 15 17:34 config.pck.last

-rw-rw-r-- 1 root   mailman   22 Mar 29 13:50 request.pck

 

Can you help me find out what is wrong?

Thanks.

_____________________

Steve Wehr

Tunedin Web Design <http://www.tunedinweb.com/> 

845-246-9643

 


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Apr 16 12:22:00 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 09:22:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Command output: post script,
 list not found: XXXXX
In-Reply-To: <03ec01d19767$e13445a0$a39cd0e0$@com>
References: <03ec01d19767$e13445a0$a39cd0e0$@com>
Message-ID: <571266A8.8060300@msapiro.net>

On 04/15/2016 03:40 PM, Steve Wehr wrote:
> 
> I was running mailman successfully for years on my server. Then this week I
> cut over to a new server and hired someone to install the latest version of
> mailman and migrate all my existing lists. This mostly works.


Have they cashed the check yet?


> I can run /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_lists and all my lists are displayed. I
> can use the mailman admin page to list all my lists and I can edit each of
> them from there.
> 
> But when I try to send email to any list, my email is sent back to me with
> the following message:
> 
> <Test at tunedinweb.com>: Command died with status 1:
> 
>     "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post test". Command output: post script,
> 
>     list not found: test


I don't have a good guess, but based on what you've shown is there and
the fact that the web CGIs access the correct stuff, I think the mail
wrapper is pointing at the wrong installation.

I.e., I think that in the configuration and installation process, there
was more than one configuration done with different values for --prefix=
and somehow the mail wrapper in /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman hasn't
been compiled with the correct prefix.

Things to check are

1) what is the value of 'prefix' in /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/paths.py
(although if this were wrong, the web stuff wouldn't work either)

Also, does
  diff /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/paths.py /usr/lib/mailman/bin/paths.py
show any difference? (it shouldn't)

2) run
  strings /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman | grep mailman

This should produce 2 or three lines, two of which should be in your case

/usr/lib/mailman
/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/

There may be another line pointing to the source directory - this
doesn't matter.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From bsfinkel at att.net  Sun Apr 17 01:14:42 2016
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 00:14:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Command output: post script,
 list not found: XXXXX
In-Reply-To: <03ec01d19767$e13445a0$a39cd0e0$@com>
References: <03ec01d19767$e13445a0$a39cd0e0$@com>
Message-ID: <57131BC2.6090100@att.net>

On 4/15/2016 5:40 PM, Steve Wehr wrote:
> First of all I apologize of there is already ananswer to this question. I
> have been googling and reading your doc for days in hopes of finding an
> answer.
>
>
>
> I was running mailman successfully for years on my server. Then this week I
> cut over to a new server and hired someone to install the latest version of
> mailman and migrate all my existing lists. This mostly works.
>
>
>
> I can run /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_lists and all my lists are displayed. I
> can use the mailman admin page to list all my lists and I can edit each of
> them from there.
>
>
>
> But when I try to send email to any list, my email is sent back to me with
> the following message:
>
>
>
> <Test at tunedinweb.com>: Command died with status 1:
>
>      "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post test". Command output: post script,
>
>      list not found: test
>
>
>
> I have run:
>
> root: /usr/lib/mailman/bin>sudo -u mail /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post
> test </dev/null
>
> post script, list not found: test
>
>
>
> and:
>
> root: /var/lib/mailman/lists>ls -ld test
>
> drwxrwsr-x 2 apache mailman 4096 Apr 15 17:35 test
>
> root: /var/lib/mailman/lists>ls -l test
>
> total 20
>
> -rw-rw---- 1 apache mailman 5061 Apr 15 17:35 config.pck
>
> -rw-rw---- 1 apache mailman 5060 Apr 15 17:34 config.pck.last
>
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 root   mailman   22 Mar 29 13:50 request.pck
>
>
>
> Can you help me find out what is wrong?
>
> Thanks.
>
> _____________________
>
> Steve Wehr
>
> Tunedin Web Design <http://www.tunedinweb.com/>
>
> 845-246-9643


The first thing that comes to mind is the aliases file.
What alias file is used by Postfix?  Does that file have all
of the Mailman aliases for each list?

--Barry Finkel


From luscheina at yahoo.de  Sun Apr 17 07:24:39 2016
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 13:24:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Language preferences
Message-ID: <20160417132439824043.5efc1417@yahoo.de>

Hi all 

First, thank you ro Mark Sapiro for his link to the "get-welcome" script. 

Next points here: 

(1) The 3 lists are set in language preferences to "German" as preferred language. In the language selection below, only "German" and "English (USA)" are marked as available for the list.  It is obviously not possible to de-select "English (USA)" in the "available languages" for the list completely - or did I miss something?  The list's subscribers are all of German language. 

(2) The administration interface has also switched to German after I set German as the preferred language. Since some translations of the settings are not too clear in German, and some settings even are not translated at all, I like to have the whole interface in English - but of course leave the preferred language unchanged. 

Thank you, 
Christian 

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From luscheina at yahoo.de  Sun Apr 17 07:39:40 2016
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 13:39:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message footers
Message-ID: <20160417133940654859.15dd8a53@yahoo.de>

Hi all 

The standard message footers for my lists are 

_______________________________________________
%(real_name)s mailing list
%(real_name)s@%(host_name)s
%(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s

I would like to add some information here how to get help and how to unsubscribe. 

What would the syntax be to get the following result (I don't like to experiment on the live lists):

Unsubscribe: <mailto:listname-unsubscribe at domain.com>
Get Help: <mailto:listname-request at domain.com?subject=help>

would <mailto:%(real_name)s-request@%(host_name)s?subject=help> for the help line worrk? Or rather not? 

Thank you, Christian 
-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From bsfinkel at att.net  Sun Apr 17 10:31:44 2016
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 09:31:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message footers
In-Reply-To: <20160417133940654859.15dd8a53@yahoo.de>
References: <20160417133940654859.15dd8a53@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <57139E50.6050202@att.net>

On 4/17/2016 6:39 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Hi all
>
> The standard message footers for my lists are
>
> _______________________________________________
> %(real_name)s mailing list
> %(real_name)s@%(host_name)s
> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
>
> I would like to add some information here how to get help and how to unsubscribe.
>
> What would the syntax be to get the following result (I don't like to experiment on the live lists):
>
> Unsubscribe: <mailto:listname-unsubscribe at domain.com>
> Get Help: <mailto:listname-request at domain.com?subject=help>
>
> would <mailto:%(real_name)s-request@%(host_name)s?subject=help> for the help line worrk? Or rather not?
>
> Thank you, Christian


Why not create a test list and experiment?  Or, I assume, you could
experiment with the already-created 9but seldom used) Mailman list.

--Barry Finkel



From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Apr 17 11:43:45 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 08:43:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Language preferences
In-Reply-To: <20160417132439824043.5efc1417@yahoo.de>
References: <20160417132439824043.5efc1417@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <5713AF31.5010501@msapiro.net>

On 04/17/2016 04:24 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> (1) The 3 lists are set in language preferences to "German" as preferred language. In the language selection below, only "German" and "English (USA)" are marked as available for the list.  It is obviously not possible to de-select "English (USA)" in the "available languages" for the list completely - or did I miss something?  The list's subscribers are all of German language. 


The language which is always available is that set as
DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE in Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py. If you set

DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE = 'de'

in mm_cfg.py, you can remove "English (USA)" from the list's
available_languages.


> (2) The administration interface has also switched to German after I set German as the preferred language. Since some translations of the settings are not too clear in German, and some settings even are not translated at all, I like to have the whole interface in English - but of course leave the preferred language unchanged. 


The admin interface will always be in the list's preferred_language.

The German translation in current Mailman (2.1.21 and the head of the
branch at <https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1>) is
complete. There should be no untranslated strings.

If you can improve the translation, your help will be appreciated. See
<https://wiki.list.org/DEV/Internationalization> and pages linked from
there for info.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Apr 17 12:38:34 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 09:38:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message footers
In-Reply-To: <20160417133940654859.15dd8a53@yahoo.de>
References: <20160417133940654859.15dd8a53@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <5713BC0A.3020704@msapiro.net>

On 04/17/2016 04:39 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Hi all 
> 
> The standard message footers for my lists are 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> %(real_name)s mailing list
> %(real_name)s@%(host_name)s
> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
> 
> I would like to add some information here how to get help and how to unsubscribe. 
> 
> What would the syntax be to get the following result (I don't like to experiment on the live lists):
> 
> Unsubscribe: <mailto:listname-unsubscribe at domain.com>
> Get Help: <mailto:listname-request at domain.com?subject=help>

First of all, the msg_footer is plain text, not HTML so something like

Get Help: <mailto:listname-request at domain.com?subject=help>

will appear as that text, not as an active mailto link


> would <mailto:%(real_name)s-request@%(host_name)s?subject=help> for the help line worrk? Or rather not? 


It would produce the result you have above, but it would not be an
active link unless the recipient's MUA makes it one. In any case,

Get Help: <%(real_name)s-request@%(host_name)s?subject=help>

would probable be better. Go to the web admin UI Non-digest options page
and click (Details for msg_footer) to see what replacements are
available, and as Barry Finkel suggests, create a test list and experiment.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Apr 17 15:59:09 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 12:59:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.22 release
Message-ID: <5713EB0D.10109@msapiro.net>

I am pleased to announce the release of Mailman 2.1.22.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.7 is strongly recommended.

There are no new features in this release.  There are a few i18n updates
and some bug fixes. See the attached README for details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see our web site at one of:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman
http://mailman.sourceforge.net/
http://mirror.list.org/

Mailman 2.1.22 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
2.1.22 (17-Apr-2016)

  i18n

    - Fixed a typo in the German options.html template.  (LP: #1562408)

    - An error in the Brazilian Portugese translation of Quarterly has been
      fixed thanks to Kleber A. Benatti.

    - The Brazilian Portugese translation has been updated by Emerson Ribeiro
      de Mello.

  Bug fixes and other patches

    - All addresses in data/virtual-mailman are now properly appended with
      VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN and duplicates are not generated if the
      site list is in a virtual domain.  (LP: #1570630)

    - DMARC mitigations will now find the From: domain to the right of the
      rightmost '@' rather than the leftmost '@'.  (LP: #1568445)

    - DMARC mitigations for a sub-domain of an organizational domain will now
      use the organizational domain's sp= policy if any.  (LP: #1568398)

    - Modified NewsRunner.py to ensure that messages gated to Usenet have a
      non-blank Subject: header and when munging the Message-ID to add the
      original to References: to help with threading.  (LP: #557955)

    - Fixed the pipermail archiver to do a better job of figuring the date of
      a post when its Date: header is missing, unparseable or has an obviously
      out of range date.  This should only affect bin/arch as ArchRunner has
      code to fix dates at least if ARCHIVER_CLOBBER_DATE_POLICY has not been
      set to 0 in mm_cfg.py.  If posts have been added in the past to a list's
      archive using bin/arch and an imported mbox, running bin/arch again could
      result is some of those posts being archived with a different date.
      (LP: #1555798)

    - Fixed an issue with CommandRunner shunting a malformed message with a
      null byte in the body.  (LP: #1553888)

    - Don't collapse multipart with a single sub-part inside multipart/signed
      parts.  (LP: #1551075)

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From jimpop at gmail.com  Mon Apr 18 08:57:55 2016
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 08:57:55 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.22 release
In-Reply-To: <5713EB0D.10109@msapiro.net>
References: <5713EB0D.10109@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR0vEpzmnXT4HRkPai0oaH4XeoGrHBqNnLoGcoSsu88KqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> I am pleased to announce the release of Mailman 2.1.22.


Mark, Thank You for your hard work and dedication to providing the
worlds best mailinglist manager, it is much appreciated by many
people.

-Jim P.

From barry at list.org  Mon Apr 18 09:52:18 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 09:52:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.22 release
In-Reply-To: <CAGfsgR0vEpzmnXT4HRkPai0oaH4XeoGrHBqNnLoGcoSsu88KqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5713EB0D.10109@msapiro.net>
 <CAGfsgR0vEpzmnXT4HRkPai0oaH4XeoGrHBqNnLoGcoSsu88KqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160418095218.7f58c4a6@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Apr 18, 2016, at 08:57 AM, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>Mark, Thank You for your hard work and dedication to providing the
>worlds best mailinglist manager, it is much appreciated by many
>people.

Indeed!  Mark has my deepest gratitude for his ongoing care of Mailman 2.1.

-Barry

From simon.hellings at nhs.net  Tue Apr 19 04:18:44 2016
From: simon.hellings at nhs.net (Hellings Simon (EAST KENT HOSPITALS UNIVERSITY NHS FOUNDATION TRUST))
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:18:44 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FW: Installation issues
Message-ID: <20160419081845.BBC07448003@nhs-pd1e-esg109.ad1.nhs.net>

Hi folks

I was speaking to someone last night on the IRC chat room @ http://webchat.freenode.net/ who suggested sending an email to this address to try and find a solution to my issues.

I have been trying to get Mailman 3 installed on an Ubuntu 14.04 server.

I thought I had followed the instructions from https://wiki.list.org/DEV/Mailman%203.0/Mailman%203.0%20Suite%20Install%20on%20Ubuntu and http://mailman-bundler.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ but am getting an error 500 when I try and browse to http://x.x.x.x:8000/mailman3.  I can open http://x.x.x.x:8000/archives and the login button seems to work, but when I click manage lists I get an error 500 again.

The entire process I followed is below:


*         sudo apt-get update

*         sudo apt-get install git python3-dev python3-pip python-dev python-pip python-virtualenv

*         sudo apt-get install nodejs npm

*         sudo npm install -g less

*         sudo ln -s /usr/bin/nodejs /usr/bin/node


*         created new user 'mailmanuser'



*         'mkdir /opt/mailman'

*         'sudo chown mailmanuser:mailmanuser mailman'

*         'su mailman'

*         'cd /opt/mailman'

*         git clone https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman-bundler.git

*         virtualenv -p /usr/lib/python2.7 venv

*         source venv/bin/activate

*         changed password in mailman_web/testing.py

*         cd mailman-bundler

*         pip install zc.buildout

*         buildout

*         sudo apt-get install ruby-sass

*         ./bin/mailman-post-update

*         ./bin/mailman-web-django-admin createsuperuser

*         ./bin/mailman start

*         ./bin/mailman-web-django-admin runserver 0.0.0.0:8000

I have attached the django and mailman logs and the top of the page I get back from the server

I must have missed something but I don't really know where to go from here...  Please can you review and advise if there is anything that  I have missed?

I look forward to hearing from you in due course.  Any pointers greatly received.

Kind regards

Simon Hellings
Senior Database Engineer - Information Technology
East Kent Hospitals University NHS Foundation Trust
Tel: 01233 651 970 (internal extn 723 1970)  | Mob: 07866 793 303

This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please respect the environment and only print out this email if necessary.


********************************************************************************************************************

This message may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient please inform the
sender that you have received the message in error before deleting it.
Please do not disclose, copy or distribute information in this e-mail or take any action in reliance on its contents:
to do so is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.

Thank you for your co-operation.

NHSmail is the secure email and directory service available for all NHS staff in England and Scotland
NHSmail is approved for exchanging patient data and other sensitive information with NHSmail and GSi recipients
NHSmail provides an email address for your career in the NHS and can be accessed anywhere

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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 19 10:31:54 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:31:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FW: Installation issues
In-Reply-To: <20160419081845.BBC07448003@nhs-pd1e-esg109.ad1.nhs.net>
References: <20160419081845.BBC07448003@nhs-pd1e-esg109.ad1.nhs.net>
Message-ID: <5716415A.40604@msapiro.net>

On 04/19/2016 01:18 AM, Hellings Simon (EAST KENT HOSPITALS UNIVERSITY
NHS FOUNDATION TRUST) wrote:
> 
> I was speaking to someone last night on the IRC chat room @ http://webchat.freenode.net/ who suggested sending an email to this address to try and find a solution to my issues.
> 
> I have been trying to get Mailman 3 installed on an Ubuntu 14.04 server.


This is not the list for Mailman3. Please join the
mailman-users at mailman3.org list at
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>
and post your request there.  Note that this is a publicly archived
list.  Do not post personal information that you don't want to expose to
the world.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From steve at tunedinweb.com  Tue Apr 19 16:14:31 2016
From: steve at tunedinweb.com (Steve Wehr)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:14:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Getting lots of unsubscribe emails after migrating
 to new mailman version
Message-ID: <03c401d19a78$15532aa0$3ff97fe0$@com>

I host about 75 mailing lists for my clients. Last week I completed a
migration to a new server and mailman 2.1.20. Ever since then mailman has
been sending hundreds of unsubscribe notifications to many (but not all) of
the list owners. The emails addresses in question seem to be old bad
addresses that are being bounced. But one user has been receiving 250 such
emails per day. 

 

Why did this happen after the emigration? Should I just let mailman run it's
course and these will stop on their own? Are there some files I can check to
see what is going on?

 

Thanks to the community for your help.

 

_____________________

Steve Wehr

Tunedin Web Design <http://www.tunedinweb.com/> 

845-246-9643

 


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 19 17:38:49 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:38:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Getting lots of unsubscribe emails after
 migrating to new mailman version
In-Reply-To: <03c401d19a78$15532aa0$3ff97fe0$@com>
References: <03c401d19a78$15532aa0$3ff97fe0$@com>
Message-ID: <5716A569.1090906@msapiro.net>

On 04/19/2016 01:14 PM, Steve Wehr wrote:
> I host about 75 mailing lists for my clients. Last week I completed a
> migration to a new server and mailman 2.1.20. Ever since then mailman has
> been sending hundreds of unsubscribe notifications to many (but not all) of
> the list owners. The emails addresses in question seem to be old bad
> addresses that are being bounced. But one user has been receiving 250 such
> emails per day. 
> 
> Why did this happen after the emigration? Should I just let mailman run it's
> course and these will stop on their own? Are there some files I can check to
> see what is going on?


First of all, check Mailman's bounce and subscribe logs to see if these
are unsubscribes from bounce processing.

It is quite possible that the new server is being blocked by recipient
ISPs, either because of misconfiguration or just because it's an IP they
haven't seen before suddenly sending a lot of mail. Check your MTA's
logs for SMTP rejects and reasons.

However, at least with default bounce processing settings, an address
that just begins to bounce won't have delivery disabled for at least 5
days and won't be actually unsubscribed for another three weeks, so if
the migration just occurred last week, either lots of lists have non
default bounce processing, or something else is going on.

Eventually this will stop after the lists have no members, and probably
somewhat before that ;)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Apr 19 21:29:28 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:29:28 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FW: Installation issues
In-Reply-To: <5716415A.40604@msapiro.net>
References: <20160419081845.BBC07448003@nhs-pd1e-esg109.ad1.nhs.net>
 <5716415A.40604@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22294.56184.988120.578009@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > On 04/19/2016 01:18 AM, Hellings Simon (EAST KENT HOSPITALS UNIVERSITY
 > NHS FOUNDATION TRUST) wrote:
 > > 
 > > I have been trying to get Mailman 3 installed on an Ubuntu 14.04 server.
 > 
 > This is not the list for Mailman3. Please join the
 > mailman-users at mailman3.org list at
 > <https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>
 > and post your request there.  Note that this is a publicly archived
 > list.  Do not post personal information that you don't want to expose to
 > the world.

I suggest you also browse the archives for Mailman-Developers

 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/

as until recently most discussion of usage issues as well as
development per se was on that list.  Your issue may very well have
been recently discussed, it seems superficially similar.  Maybe
there's a deeper resemblence and a fix in the archives.

Steve

From rerobbins at itinker.net  Tue Apr 19 20:28:07 2016
From: rerobbins at itinker.net (Richard Robbins)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 19:28:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing
Message-ID: <CA+KT2-8gms9Hqf4jD1g7QjomhdqFg6NFFYukUMqSq7xDHPRZzQ@mail.gmail.com>

I recently switched my mailman host to a new provider.  One of my users is
now encountering problems that he hasn't had before.  When he sends a
message to a list an error message is generated that is in the following
form:

From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at cloud1.emwd.com>
To: announce-bounces at usml.net
Cc:
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:09:24 -0400
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

  [subscriber's email address appeared here and I deleted it]
    host mxa-00149702.gslb.pphosted.com [67.231.156.216]
    SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
    550 5.7.0 You are not authorized to use our domain as a sender address.

Action: failed
Final-Recipient: rfc822; [subscriber's email address appeared here and I
deleted it]
Status: 5.0.0
Remote-MTA: dns; mxa-00149702.gslb.pphosted.com
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.0 You are not authorized to use our domain
as a sender address.

When I asked my host about this I was told that this is an SPF
configuration issue and that the sender needs to adjust relevant DNS
records.

The subscriber spoke to his IT person who said that this appears to him to
be a blacklist issue and that the host needs to make an adjustment.

Meanwhile, mailman has now removed the subscriber from the mailing list and
I had to put him back on, but I assume he will be deleted soon.

I'm not really sure what to do.

Any advice on how to proceed?

From luscheina at yahoo.de  Wed Apr 20 04:14:53 2016
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:14:53 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Thunderbird
Message-ID: <20160420101453085883.c8ce9cb2@yahoo.de>

Hi all 

I have no idea where this question belongs to... but there might be some knowing person out here, I hope!

We switched our lists to a new provider and now are using Mailman 2.1.20 from Cpanel. 

A user complained that his Thunderbird mail application (on MacOS X, if this matters) does no longer treat incoming list mails properly - means, the message is treated by Thunderbird as if it was sent to his "default" mail address (we call it "A" for now) instead of the address he used to subscibe to the list (address "B").

This would not be a big problem - but when he replies to a list message, the reply is sent from "A" instead of "B", resulting in an error message from Mailman...

He has analysed the headers and compared with the old list setup headers. As far as he could see, the only difference was that Mailman list includes an "Envelope-To"-header with his subscription address, while the precious list version included a "Delivered-To"-header. 

I am not a "mail header specialist", but I would guess that these two headers are added by the receiving mail server and not by the list software. Is this assumption correct? If not, can Mailman be configured to send the "Delivered-To"-header? 

And if there are by chance any Thunderbird-specialists among us: what can he do to correct the situation? 

Thank you, Christian 

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From cnulk at scu.edu  Wed Apr 20 10:58:16 2016
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:58:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <20160420101453085883.c8ce9cb2@yahoo.de>
References: <20160420101453085883.c8ce9cb2@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <57179908.7070300@scu.edu>

Hello,

It could be the user needs to use the manage identities feature in 
Thunderbird.  If you have an email address A that also has an alias 
address B, when you set up the email address A account in Thunderbird, 
it will use the A email address when you reply to messages even if the 
message was sent to the B email address.  Using the Manage Identities 
feature (on the Account Settings page near the bottom), you can add the 
alias email address B.  Once done, when you reply to a message sent to 
the A address, Thunderbird will use the A address for the From: field.  
When you reply to a message sent to the B address, Thunderbird will use 
the B address for the From: field.  If you have multiple address that 
all consolidate to one address, this is a convenient way to receive mail 
and reply using the correct address for the reply.

Just a thought,
Chris

On 4/20/2016 1:14 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I have no idea where this question belongs to... but there might be some knowing person out here, I hope!
>
> We switched our lists to a new provider and now are using Mailman 2.1.20 from Cpanel.
>
> A user complained that his Thunderbird mail application (on MacOS X, if this matters) does no longer treat incoming list mails properly - means, the message is treated by Thunderbird as if it was sent to his "default" mail address (we call it "A" for now) instead of the address he used to subscibe to the list (address "B").
>
> This would not be a big problem - but when he replies to a list message, the reply is sent from "A" instead of "B", resulting in an error message from Mailman...
>
> He has analysed the headers and compared with the old list setup headers. As far as he could see, the only difference was that Mailman list includes an "Envelope-To"-header with his subscription address, while the precious list version included a "Delivered-To"-header.
>
> I am not a "mail header specialist", but I would guess that these two headers are added by the receiving mail server and not by the list software. Is this assumption correct? If not, can Mailman be configured to send the "Delivered-To"-header?
>
> And if there are by chance any Thunderbird-specialists among us: what can he do to correct the situation?
>
> Thank you, Christian
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr 20 11:26:49 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:26:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Thunderbird
In-Reply-To: <20160420101453085883.c8ce9cb2@yahoo.de>
References: <20160420101453085883.c8ce9cb2@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <57179FB9.1000908@msapiro.net>

On 04/20/2016 01:14 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> A user complained that his Thunderbird mail application (on MacOS X, if this matters) does no longer treat incoming list mails properly - means, the message is treated by Thunderbird as if it was sent to his "default" mail address (we call it "A" for now) instead of the address he used to subscibe to the list (address "B").


I would have to know more about his actual T-bird configuration to
comment on that.


> This would not be a big problem - but when he replies to a list message, the reply is sent from "A" instead of "B", resulting in an error message from Mailman...


As Chris says, if he has more than one T-bird identity, when he composes
a reply, the From: in the composition window is a pull-down list from
which he can chose the identity he wants. I think this normally is the
identity that the original was addressed to, but he should have control
in any case.


> He has analysed the headers and compared with the old list setup headers. As far as he could see, the only difference was that Mailman list includes an "Envelope-To"-header with his subscription address, while the precious list version included a "Delivered-To"-header. 
> 
> I am not a "mail header specialist", but I would guess that these two headers are added by the receiving mail server and not by the list software. Is this assumption correct? If not, can Mailman be configured to send the "Delivered-To"-header? 


Delivered-To: is added by Postfix and perhaps other MTA's in the
delivery chain (It's used by Postfix to detect mail loops). Envelope-To:
is added by some MTA. Mailman has nothing to do with either.


> And if there are by chance any Thunderbird-specialists among us: what can he do to correct the situation? 


I use T-bird, but I'm not sure exactly what headers it uses when
selecting a default From: address on a reply, but the user can always
select a different one, although that's a step that's easily forgotten.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Apr 20 21:55:55 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:55:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing
In-Reply-To: <CA+KT2-8gms9Hqf4jD1g7QjomhdqFg6NFFYukUMqSq7xDHPRZzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+KT2-8gms9Hqf4jD1g7QjomhdqFg6NFFYukUMqSq7xDHPRZzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5718332B.5010302@msapiro.net>

On 04/19/2016 05:28 PM, Richard Robbins wrote:
> I recently switched my mailman host to a new provider.  One of my users is
> now encountering problems that he hasn't had before.  When he sends a
> message to a list an error message is generated that is in the following
> form:
> 
> From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at cloud1.emwd.com>
> To: announce-bounces at usml.net
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:09:24 -0400
> Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
> This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
> 
> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
...
> When I asked my host about this I was told that this is an SPF
> configuration issue and that the sender needs to adjust relevant DNS
> records.
> 
> The subscriber spoke to his IT person who said that this appears to him to
> be a blacklist issue and that the host needs to make an adjustment.
> 
> Meanwhile, mailman has now removed the subscriber from the mailing list and
> I had to put him back on, but I assume he will be deleted soon.


There are two separate issues here. He cannot send to Mailman and
Mailman can't send to him. The first causes him to get the rejections as
above and the other causes Mailman's bounce processing to unsubscribe him.

As to what you can do, the first question is whether this is your
Mailman installation on say a hosted VPS or similar or Mailman provided
by the host.

If the latter, there's little if anything you can directly do. You can
go to the list's web admin UI and on the Bounce processing page, make
sure that both bounce_notify_owner_on_bounce_increment and
bounce_notify_owner_on_disable are set to Yes. Then every time the
user's bounce score is incremented and when it reaches threshold, the
owner will be sent a notice which includes the reason the mail wasn't
delivered. This may be similar to or different from the notice the user
gets when he sends to the list.

This will at least give you some more information. If as I suspect you
do not control Mailman or the MTA on the host machine, there's probably
nothing you can do to fix this and since the host and the user's support
are pointing fingers at each other, there's not much hope for resolution
there either.

Probably the user should just give up and get a gmail or other freemail
(but not Yahoo or AOL or anyone else that publishes DMARC p=reject)
account to use with the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Apr 20 22:03:07 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:03:07 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Bounce Processing
In-Reply-To: <CA+KT2-8gms9Hqf4jD1g7QjomhdqFg6NFFYukUMqSq7xDHPRZzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+KT2-8gms9Hqf4jD1g7QjomhdqFg6NFFYukUMqSq7xDHPRZzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22296.13531.924338.326254@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Richard Robbins writes:

 > I recently switched my mailman host to a new provider.  One of my
 > users is now encountering problems that he hasn't had before.

Are you sure your list configuration is the same as before?

 > When he sends a message to a list an error message is generated
 > that is in the following form:

This doesn't look like a problem Mailman itself can help solve, but
you don't provide the information needed to decide.

 > From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at cloud1.emwd.com>
 > To: announce-bounces at usml.net

announce at usml.net is your mailing list?

emwd.com is your new host?  (No direct experience, but they have been
a good citizen on our lists, which gives me some confidence in his
statements.)

 > This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
 > 
 >   [subscriber's email address appeared here and I deleted it]

The subscriber's address is at pphosted.com (from the name, most
likely a virtual domain served by pphosted.com)?  Subscriber ==
sender?  Do you get a pile of these for various senders, or only for
subscriber == sender?

 >     host mxa-00149702.gslb.pphosted.com [67.231.156.216]
 >     SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
 >     550 5.7.0 You are not authorized to use our domain as a sender address.

As your staff says, this could be an SPF issue, but why "mxa-00149702"
believes your host is claiming to be a domain hosted by pphosted.com,
I don't know.  Was your domain ("usml.net"?) formerly, or now partially,
hosted at pphosted.com?

If your list hosting domain has never had any relation to
pphosted.com, I would assume that this isn't based on SPF, but rather
that the sender is the subscriber, and this is a policy rejection
based on that fact (ie, the subscriber's host believes the mail is
from a spammer pretending to be the subscriber).

 > Action: failed
 > Final-Recipient: rfc822; [subscriber's email address appeared here and I
 > deleted it]
 > Status: 5.0.0
 > Remote-MTA: dns; mxa-00149702.gslb.pphosted.com
 > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.0 You are not authorized to use our domain
 > as a sender address.
 > 
 > When I asked my host about this I was told that this is an SPF
 > configuration issue and that the sender needs to adjust relevant
 > DNS records.

Could be, I guess.  I would guess a misconfiguration of the receiving
MTA (mail server).  I don't understand how a DNS misconfiguration of
SPF would result in that status message, unless the receiver is also
broken.

But SPF DNS reconfiguration shouldn't help Mailman mailing lists,
because mailing lists are expected to fail in SPF.  Configuration of
the receiving MTA would be more likely to help.

 > The subscriber spoke to his IT person who said that this appears to
 > him to be a blacklist issue and that the host needs to make an
 > adjustment.

Sounds to me like the IT person just doesn't want to be bothered.  I
see no evidence of a blacklist in what you've posted, rather, pretty
clearly the subscriber's host made the reject decision all by itself.
If there was a blacklist, it's the subscriber's host that consulted
it, and the IT person should be a lot more helpful about what the
problem is.

 > Meanwhile, mailman has now removed the subscriber from the mailing list and
 > I had to put him back on, but I assume he will be deleted soon.
 > 
 > I'm not really sure what to do.
 > 
 > Any advice on how to proceed?

Using one of the DMARC mitigation options (most popular is Privacy |
Sender Filters | DMARC Moderation Action, set to "Munge From") may
help.  I'd bet against it, but it's mostly harmless (list traffic will
continue to be delivered to everybody, some people may complain about
the awkward From header field from some posters), and easily reversed
if you do get any complaints.

If the answers to the initial questions are all "yes" (except the last
two, which I expect to be "no, only for this sender==subscriber", and
"no, usml.net has no relation whatsoever to pphosted.com"), I strongly
suspect that there is a problem at the subscriber's host (quite
possibly in the IT person's head).  If the subscriber wants reliable
mail service it's easiest to get another address (Gmail is easy; AOL
and Yahoo! are deprecated because of their DMARC policies).

Steve

From brian at emwd.com  Wed Apr 20 22:56:07 2016
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:56:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing
In-Reply-To: <22296.13531.924338.326254@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CA+KT2-8gms9Hqf4jD1g7QjomhdqFg6NFFYukUMqSq7xDHPRZzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22296.13531.924338.326254@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <db7a01d19b79$5a8c7e80$0fa57b80$@emwd.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Stephen J. Turnbull
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 10:03 PM
> To: Richard Robbins <rerobbins at itinker.net>
> Cc: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing
> 
> Richard Robbins writes:
> 
>  > I recently switched my mailman host to a new provider.  One of my
>  > users is now encountering problems that he hasn't had before.
> 
> Are you sure your list configuration is the same as before?
> 
>  > When he sends a message to a list an error message is generated
>  > that is in the following form:
> 
> This doesn't look like a problem Mailman itself can help solve, but
> you don't provide the information needed to decide.
> 
>  > From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at cloud1.emwd.com>
>  > To: announce-bounces at usml.net
> 
> announce at usml.net is your mailing list?
> 
> emwd.com is your new host?  (No direct experience, but they have been
> a good citizen on our lists, which gives me some confidence in his
> statements.)
> 
>  > This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
>  >
>  >   [subscriber's email address appeared here and I deleted it]
> 
> The subscriber's address is at pphosted.com (from the name, most
> likely a virtual domain served by pphosted.com)?  Subscriber ==
> sender?  Do you get a pile of these for various senders, or only for
> subscriber == sender?
> 
>  >     host mxa-00149702.gslb.pphosted.com [67.231.156.216]
>  >     SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
>  >     550 5.7.0 You are not authorized to use our domain as a sender
address.
> 
> As your staff says, this could be an SPF issue, but why "mxa-00149702"
> believes your host is claiming to be a domain hosted by pphosted.com,
> I don't know.  Was your domain ("usml.net"?) formerly, or now partially,
> hosted at pphosted.com?
> 
> If your list hosting domain has never had any relation to
> pphosted.com, I would assume that this isn't based on SPF, but rather
> that the sender is the subscriber, and this is a policy rejection
> based on that fact (ie, the subscriber's host believes the mail is
> from a spammer pretending to be the subscriber).
> 
>  > Action: failed
>  > Final-Recipient: rfc822; [subscriber's email address appeared here and
I
>  > deleted it]
>  > Status: 5.0.0
>  > Remote-MTA: dns; mxa-00149702.gslb.pphosted.com
>  > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.0 You are not authorized to use our
domain
>  > as a sender address.
>  >
>  > When I asked my host about this I was told that this is an SPF
>  > configuration issue and that the sender needs to adjust relevant
>  > DNS records.
> 
> Could be, I guess.  I would guess a misconfiguration of the receiving
> MTA (mail server).  I don't understand how a DNS misconfiguration of
> SPF would result in that status message, unless the receiver is also
> broken.
> 
> But SPF DNS reconfiguration shouldn't help Mailman mailing lists,
> because mailing lists are expected to fail in SPF.  Configuration of
> the receiving MTA would be more likely to help.
> 
>  > The subscriber spoke to his IT person who said that this appears to
>  > him to be a blacklist issue and that the host needs to make an
>  > adjustment.
> 
> Sounds to me like the IT person just doesn't want to be bothered.  I
> see no evidence of a blacklist in what you've posted, rather, pretty
> clearly the subscriber's host made the reject decision all by itself.
> If there was a blacklist, it's the subscriber's host that consulted
> it, and the IT person should be a lot more helpful about what the
> problem is.
> 
>  > Meanwhile, mailman has now removed the subscriber from the mailing list
> and
>  > I had to put him back on, but I assume he will be deleted soon.
>  >
>  > I'm not really sure what to do.
>  >
>  > Any advice on how to proceed?
> 
> Using one of the DMARC mitigation options (most popular is Privacy |
> Sender Filters | DMARC Moderation Action, set to "Munge From") may
> help.  I'd bet against it, but it's mostly harmless (list traffic will
> continue to be delivered to everybody, some people may complain about
> the awkward From header field from some posters), and easily reversed
> if you do get any complaints.
> 
> If the answers to the initial questions are all "yes" (except the last
> two, which I expect to be "no, only for this sender==subscriber", and
> "no, usml.net has no relation whatsoever to pphosted.com"), I strongly
> suspect that there is a problem at the subscriber's host (quite
> possibly in the IT person's head).  If the subscriber wants reliable
> mail service it's easiest to get another address (Gmail is easy; AOL
> and Yahoo! are deprecated because of their DMARC policies).
> 
> Steve
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/brian%40emwd.com

It does look like it is a SPF issue. The email address that is bouncing is
only bouncing messages that comes from itself. All other messages coming
from other list members are delivered successfully. So every time this list
member posts, he is being sent a copy of his own post and his own posts
bounces when mailman tries to deliver his own post to his own email account.
The domain name in question does have a SPF record. The IP address of this
user's mail server is not listed in their SPF record.

Brian


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 21 00:14:07 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:14:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing
In-Reply-To: <5718332B.5010302@msapiro.net>
References: <5718332B.5010302@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5718538F.3040906@msapiro.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> There are two separate issues here. He cannot send to Mailman and
> Mailman can't send to him. The first causes him to get the rejections as
> above and the other causes Mailman's bounce processing to unsubscribe him.


I partially misinterpreted the situation. I have received an off-list
message from the proprietor of the subject Mailman hosting service with
whom we have an excellent relationship (and he has now posted to the list).

He has clarified a few things. The only messages that are bouncing are
the problem user's posts from the list back to him. He receives other
user's posts OK, and his posts are delivered to all the list members and
only the list post to him is bounced.

It appears to me from what I now know and see that this is a pseudo
DMARC issue. The user's ISP, pphosted.com is saying that mail which has
a From: header domain which is "our domain" and To: a user in "our
domain" must come from our servers to be accepted. I.e., they don't
publish a DMARC policy, but when checking incoming mail on their own
servers they pretend they publish p=reject.

This is not SPF per se. SPF deals only with the domain of the envelope
sender, not the From: header.

Since pphosted.com doesn't publish a DMARC policy, you can't work around
this by setting dmarc_moderation_action. You can set from_is_list to
Munge From or Wrap Message and I'm sure that will allow these posts to
go through, but that is a heavy hammer which affects all list posts.

Perhaps with this info, the user can talk again to pphosted and get an
intelligent response. This does not appear in any way to be an issue
with emwd.com's configuration.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From camelia.botez at weizmann.ac.il  Thu Apr 21 02:21:41 2016
From: camelia.botez at weizmann.ac.il (Camelia Botez)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:21:41 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] cannot discard messages using web interface
Message-ID: <74B33B2DD6D2A148967C7ECBEBF842CF0113404658@IBWMBX02>

We have a problem on several mailing lists - the moderator cannot discard or approve messages using web interface to administration of the list.
No matter what action we took the message still appears in Held Messages


Any idea how to fix this.
>From command line is working , but the admin user has no access to the server to run mailman commands.

From camelia.botez at weizmann.ac.il  Thu Apr 21 03:39:08 2016
From: camelia.botez at weizmann.ac.il (Camelia Botez)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:39:08 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admin web commands not working
Message-ID: <74B33B2DD6D2A148967C7ECBEBF842CF01134046B7@IBWMBX02>

A couple of weeks ago we configured apache https on our mailman server.
Since then we cannot approve/discard/reject any messages using web interface - why?
Does anyone have any idea?

From rerobbins at itinker.net  Thu Apr 21 06:42:54 2016
From: rerobbins at itinker.net (Richard Robbins)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 05:42:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing
In-Reply-To: <5718538F.3040906@msapiro.net>
References: <5718332B.5010302@msapiro.net>
	<5718538F.3040906@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+KT2-8esuLbrfO+hOpdMOm2P2Tp1WU5qD_dx+gLxB9Z2KhLJw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks.  You've all given me much appreciated assistance.

On Wednesday, April 20, 2016, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
> > There are two separate issues here. He cannot send to Mailman and
> > Mailman can't send to him. The first causes him to get the rejections as
> > above and the other causes Mailman's bounce processing to unsubscribe
> him.
>
>
> I partially misinterpreted the situation. I have received an off-list
> message from the proprietor of the subject Mailman hosting service with
> whom we have an excellent relationship (and he has now posted to the list).
>
> He has clarified a few things. The only messages that are bouncing are
> the problem user's posts from the list back to him. He receives other
> user's posts OK, and his posts are delivered to all the list members and
> only the list post to him is bounced.
>
> It appears to me from what I now know and see that this is a pseudo
> DMARC issue. The user's ISP, pphosted.com is saying that mail which has
> a From: header domain which is "our domain" and To: a user in "our
> domain" must come from our servers to be accepted. I.e., they don't
> publish a DMARC policy, but when checking incoming mail on their own
> servers they pretend they publish p=reject.
>
> This is not SPF per se. SPF deals only with the domain of the envelope
> sender, not the From: header.
>
> Since pphosted.com doesn't publish a DMARC policy, you can't work around
> this by setting dmarc_moderation_action. You can set from_is_list to
> Munge From or Wrap Message and I'm sure that will allow these posts to
> go through, but that is a heavy hammer which affects all list posts.
>
> Perhaps with this info, the user can talk again to pphosted and get an
> intelligent response. This does not appear in any way to be an issue
> with emwd.com's configuration.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net <javascript:;>>        The highway is for
> gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org <javascript:;>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/rerobbins%40itinker.net
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 21 09:32:22 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:32:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing
In-Reply-To: <CA+KT2-8esuLbrfO+hOpdMOm2P2Tp1WU5qD_dx+gLxB9Z2KhLJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5718332B.5010302@msapiro.net> <5718538F.3040906@msapiro.net>
 <CA+KT2-8esuLbrfO+hOpdMOm2P2Tp1WU5qD_dx+gLxB9Z2KhLJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5718D666.7070207@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2016 03:42 AM, Richard Robbins wrote:
> Thanks.  You've all given me much appreciated assistance. 


One further thought.

If the only concern is the user's being unsubscribed, you/he can set his
"Receive your own posts to the list?" option (not metoo in the web admin
Membership List) to No, and if he want's some confirmation that his
posts are received, set "Receive acknowledgement mail when you send mail
to the list?" (ack in the web admin Membership List) to Yes.

This should solve the problem of his being unsubscribed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 21 09:35:59 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:35:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] cannot discard messages using web interface
In-Reply-To: <74B33B2DD6D2A148967C7ECBEBF842CF0113404658@IBWMBX02>
References: <74B33B2DD6D2A148967C7ECBEBF842CF0113404658@IBWMBX02>
Message-ID: <5718D73F.1060004@msapiro.net>

On 04/20/2016 11:21 PM, Camelia Botez wrote:
> We have a problem on several mailing lists - the moderator cannot discard or approve messages using web interface to administration of the list.
> No matter what action we took the message still appears in Held Messages
> 
> 
> Any idea how to fix this.


See the FAQ article at <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030602>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 21 09:45:08 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:45:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admin web commands not working
In-Reply-To: <74B33B2DD6D2A148967C7ECBEBF842CF01134046B7@IBWMBX02>
References: <74B33B2DD6D2A148967C7ECBEBF842CF01134046B7@IBWMBX02>
Message-ID: <5718D964.9060602@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2016 12:39 AM, Camelia Botez wrote:
> A couple of weeks ago we configured apache https on our mailman server.
> Since then we cannot approve/discard/reject any messages using web interface - why?
> Does anyone have any idea?


Answered at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2016-April/080741.html>.

The problem is the form actions are http url's. Apache is redirecting
them to https and you are losing the POST data.

The FAQ I referred you to in my other answer refers to
<https://wiki.list.org/x/4030702>. If you look at that FAQ, you'll see
you have done step 1, but not steps 2 and 3 which also need to be done
(step 4 is optional, but saves a redirect on public archive access.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jim at ohlste.in  Wed Apr 20 23:29:52 2016
From: jim at ohlste.in (Jim Ohlstein)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 23:29:52 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New user - SMTP failure
Message-ID: <57184930.3020404@ohlste.in>

Hello,

I am trying to set up a new system for a new list but finding that 
outgoing mail is failing.

The setup I have is FreeBSD 10.3 in a jail with localhost at 
10.0.250.37. I have confirmed that routing in and out of the jail are 
correct by sending mail from it via command line, via telnet, and by 
posting to a newly created list. Unfortunately those messages are not 
relayed out, nor are list invitations.

The system is Mailman 2.1.21, Postfix 3.1.0, and Python 2.7.11.

I see this in logs/smtp-failure:

Apr 20 23:07:27 2016 (19197) Low level smtp error: [Errno 61] Connection 
refused, msgid: <mailman.0.1461205537.18941.c2-list at lists.my.domain>
Apr 20 23:07:27 2016 (19197) delivery to my at email.address failed with 
code -1: [Errno 61] Connection refused
Apr 20 23:07:27 2016 (19197) Low level smtp error: [Errno 61] Connection 
refused, msgid: <mailman.0.1461205853.19010.c2-list at lists.my.domain>
Apr 20 23:07:27 2016 (19197) delivery to my at email.address ailed with 
code -1: [Errno 61] Connection refused
Apr 20 23:07:27 2016 (19197) Low level smtp error: [Errno 61] Connection 
refused, msgid: <mailman.0.1461206277.19201.c2-list at lists.my.domain>
Apr 20 23:07:27 2016 (19197) delivery to my at email.address failed with 
code -1: [Errno 61] Connection refused
Apr 20 23:07:27 2016 (19197) Low level smtp error: [Errno 61] Connection 
refused, msgid: <mailman.0.1461207076.19195.mailman at lists.my.domain>
Apr 20 23:07:27 2016 (19197) delivery to my at email.address failed with 
code -1: [Errno 61] Connection refused

Nothing shows up in Postfix logs for these refused connections.

And lots of lines that look like this in logs/post:
Apr 20 23:07:26 2016 (19197) post to c2-list from 
c2-list-bounces at lists.my.domain, size=583, 
message-id=<mailman.0.1461205085.18509.c2-list at lists.my.domain>, 1 failures


Scanning Google I saw issues where there were errors in /etc/hosts. That 
file is world-readable and there is a correct entry for localhost. I 
have also confirmed that Postfix is listening on 25 on localhost using 
telnet and sockstat:

# telnet localhost 25
Trying 10.0.250.37...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 lists.my.domain ESMTP Postfix

The above works for root and for a non-root user.

# sockstat | grep 25
postfix  smtpd      19679 6  tcp4   10.0.250.37:25        *:*
root     master     19170 13 tcp4   10.0.250.37:25        *:*

I'm at a loss as to where to look next. Thanks for any input.


-- 
Jim Ohlstein


"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the 
difference." - Mark Twain

From martin.stein at attac.de  Thu Apr 21 09:02:45 2016
From: martin.stein at attac.de (Martin Stein)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:02:45 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sending reminder without password
Message-ID: <5718CF75.9050005@attac.de>

Hello,

I'm looking for a way to send the monthly password reminder message 
without the member(s) password(s). The list member should only see the 
name(s) of the subcribed list(s) and the corresponding URL.
How can I modify the responsible mailpasswds-Script in 
/usr/lib/mailman/cron to preventing it from sending the password(s)?

Thank You!

-- 
Martin Stein
Attac Germany Webteam

Attac Germny
M?nchener Str. 48
60329 Frankfurt am Main
Mail: martin.stein at attac.de


From rerobbins at itinker.net  Thu Apr 21 10:15:43 2016
From: rerobbins at itinker.net (Richard Robbins)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 09:15:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing
In-Reply-To: <5718D666.7070207@msapiro.net>
References: <5718332B.5010302@msapiro.net> <5718538F.3040906@msapiro.net>
 <CA+KT2-8esuLbrfO+hOpdMOm2P2Tp1WU5qD_dx+gLxB9Z2KhLJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5718D666.7070207@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+KT2--vJXux_W9e7pqCARDPG2i0Fr=2_MTP-ziM28u+Fkj6_g@mail.gmail.com>

That makes great sense.  I will give it a shot.

I'm still trying to figure our why this particular problem only cropped up
when I changed mailman hosts but I don't have access to the old host
details to see if there are differences between how I set up the program
then as opposed to now.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 04/21/2016 03:42 AM, Richard Robbins wrote:
> > Thanks.  You've all given me much appreciated assistance.
>
>
> One further thought.
>
> If the only concern is the user's being unsubscribed, you/he can set his
> "Receive your own posts to the list?" option (not metoo in the web admin
> Membership List) to No, and if he want's some confirmation that his
> posts are received, set "Receive acknowledgement mail when you send mail
> to the list?" (ack in the web admin Membership List) to Yes.
>
> This should solve the problem of his being unsubscribed.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 21 10:20:18 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:20:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sending reminder without password
In-Reply-To: <5718CF75.9050005@attac.de>
References: <5718CF75.9050005@attac.de>
Message-ID: <5718E1A2.1030900@msapiro.net>

On 04/21/2016 06:02 AM, Martin Stein wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'm looking for a way to send the monthly password reminder message
> without the member(s) password(s). The list member should only see the
> name(s) of the subcribed list(s) and the corresponding URL.
> How can I modify the responsible mailpasswds-Script in
> /usr/lib/mailman/cron to preventing it from sending the password(s)?


At around line 242 you will see

                try:
                    password = mlist.getMemberPassword(member)
                except Errors.NotAMemberError:
                    # Here's a member with no passwords, which I think was
                    # possible in older versions of Mailman.  Log this and
                    # move on.
                    syslog('error', 'password-less member %s for list %s',
                           member, mlist.internal_name())
                    continue


(although not wrapped). Remove all those lines and replace them with the
one line

                password = '****'

or something similar indented the same 16 spaces as the 'try' (don't use
tabs). This is the easiest change and will show the passwords as ****.
Eliminating the passwords completely is a more complex change.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Apr 21 11:06:12 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:06:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New user - SMTP failure
In-Reply-To: <57184930.3020404@ohlste.in>
References: <57184930.3020404@ohlste.in>
Message-ID: <5718EC64.1020007@msapiro.net>

On 04/20/2016 08:29 PM, Jim Ohlstein wrote:
> 
> I see this in logs/smtp-failure:
> 
> Apr 20 23:07:27 2016 (19197) Low level smtp error: [Errno 61] Connection
> refused, msgid: <mailman.0.1461205537.18941.c2-list at lists.my.domain>
> Apr 20 23:07:27 2016 (19197) delivery to my at email.address failed with
> code -1: [Errno 61] Connection refused
...
> I'm at a loss as to where to look next. Thanks for any input.


See the FAQ at <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030716>. Towards the bottom you
will see how to enable smtplib debugging. Do that, and see what
additional info you get.

I suspect that this is related to the jail somehow.

I also suspect you won't get much additional info from the debug output.
If there is no 'connect' logged in Postfix, you aren't even getting that
far. If you can connect from the jail manually via telnet as the Mailman
user, it must be something to do with how the jail treats the
OutgoingRunner process. If you can't, then that's the problem.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rerobbins at itinker.net  Thu Apr 21 14:28:36 2016
From: rerobbins at itinker.net (Richard Robbins)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:28:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing
In-Reply-To: <CA+KT2--vJXux_W9e7pqCARDPG2i0Fr=2_MTP-ziM28u+Fkj6_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5718332B.5010302@msapiro.net> <5718538F.3040906@msapiro.net>
 <CA+KT2-8esuLbrfO+hOpdMOm2P2Tp1WU5qD_dx+gLxB9Z2KhLJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5718D666.7070207@msapiro.net>
 <CA+KT2--vJXux_W9e7pqCARDPG2i0Fr=2_MTP-ziM28u+Fkj6_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+KT2--dSxh4rMigo-x8BTaCtxa3RtO-V846OKCJpqJCUVg-wA@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Your suggestion seems to be just what the doctor ordered.  I have a happy
subscriber who isn't in the mood to lock horns with the less than
responsive IT team at his company.

Thank you and everyone else who chimed in.

-- Rich

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Richard Robbins <rerobbins at itinker.net>
wrote:

> That makes great sense.  I will give it a shot.
>
> I'm still trying to figure our why this particular problem only cropped up
> when I changed mailman hosts but I don't have access to the old host
> details to see if there are differences between how I set up the program
> then as opposed to now.
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> On 04/21/2016 03:42 AM, Richard Robbins wrote:
>> > Thanks.  You've all given me much appreciated assistance.
>>
>>
>> One further thought.
>>
>> If the only concern is the user's being unsubscribed, you/he can set his
>> "Receive your own posts to the list?" option (not metoo in the web admin
>> Membership List) to No, and if he want's some confirmation that his
>> posts are received, set "Receive acknowledgement mail when you send mail
>> to the list?" (ack in the web admin Membership List) to Yes.
>>
>> This should solve the problem of his being unsubscribed.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>>
>
>

From mark at bradakis.com  Mon Apr 25 01:12:37 2016
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 23:12:37 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Logging sequence?
Message-ID: <571DA745.8080005@bradakis.com>

Mailman is not working. Messages come in, nothing goes out. Logs are 
useless, providing no clue as to what is happening.

In a working mailman system. what is the sequence of logging that a 
message would go through?

mjb.



From jim at ohlste.in  Mon Apr 25 07:41:09 2016
From: jim at ohlste.in (Jim Ohlstein)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:41:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RBL Management for new list/IP
Message-ID: <571E0255.3020907@ohlste.in>

Hello,

This is not so much a technical question as advice seeking. My apologies 
if it isn't appropriate for this list.

I am new to mailing list management, though not new to mail server 
management. I've never run into this problem.

Background is that I am tasked with creating an announcement list for a 
group. I'm using a dedicated IPv4 which I have controlled for two months 
and not previously used for outgoing email. I have not idea what its 
prior "reputation" was. Mailman settings are pretty much default. I have 
proper SPF and rDNS records.

We have added just short of 1000 members, all by their request at the 
web interface. A few test messages went out about 4-5 days ago. Since 
then the only outgoing mails have been signup confirmations and messages 
to me as list owner.

Despite the relatively low volume, my IP keeps getting listed at 
Spamhaus CSS (https://www.spamhaus.org/css/). I can manually de-list it 
but it seems as though whenever we send out any mail we get re-listed. I 
have tried contacting them but gotten nowhere.

The only other RBL where we are listed is http://www.dnsblchile.org/. I 
put in a de-listing request with them over the weekend but they only 
work during the week.

Has anyone dealt with this, and if so, can you offer any ideas?

-- 
Jim Ohlstein


"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the 
difference." - Mark Twain

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Apr 25 11:04:21 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:04:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Logging sequence?
In-Reply-To: <571DA745.8080005@bradakis.com>
References: <571DA745.8080005@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <571E31F5.80309@msapiro.net>

On 04/24/2016 10:12 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote:
> Mailman is not working. Messages come in, nothing goes out. Logs are
> useless, providing no clue as to what is happening.


There is a FAQ article at <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030723> which may help.


> In a working mailman system. what is the sequence of logging that a
> message would go through?


For a normal message that is accepted and delivered without moderation,
there will be entries in Mailman's post and smtp logs, both of which are
written by Mailman's final delivery process.

For messages which are 'shunted' due to an unanticipated exception in
processing, there will be an entry in the error log. For messages which
are held for moderation or automatically discarded or rejected, there
will be an entry in the vette log.

If the MTA log shows delivery to Mailman and there are no Mailman log
entries, the most likely explanation is that Mailman's IncomingRunner is
not running or 'stuck' and the messages are sitting in Mailman's in/
queue. Or possibly they are getting to the out/ queue and OutgoingRunner
is not running or 'stuck'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 26 16:58:14 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 13:58:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RBL Management for new list/IP
In-Reply-To: <571E0255.3020907@ohlste.in>
References: <571E0255.3020907@ohlste.in>
Message-ID: <571FD666.8020906@msapiro.net>

On 04/25/2016 04:41 AM, Jim Ohlstein wrote:
> 
> This is not so much a technical question as advice seeking. My apologies
> if it isn't appropriate for this list.


I do think it's on topic, but I'm afraid we (or at least I) can't offer
much help.


...
> Despite the relatively low volume, my IP keeps getting listed at
> Spamhaus CSS (https://www.spamhaus.org/css/). I can manually de-list it
> but it seems as though whenever we send out any mail we get re-listed. I
> have tried contacting them but gotten nowhere.


If you look up your IP at <http://www.abuseat.org/lookup.cgi>, what do
you find?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jim at ohlste.in  Tue Apr 26 17:14:26 2016
From: jim at ohlste.in (Jim Ohlstein)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 17:14:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RBL Management for new list/IP
In-Reply-To: <571FD666.8020906@msapiro.net>
References: <571E0255.3020907@ohlste.in> <571FD666.8020906@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <571FDA32.1000800@ohlste.in>

Hello,

On 4/26/16 4:58 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 04/25/2016 04:41 AM, Jim Ohlstein wrote:
>>

[snip]

>> Despite the relatively low volume, my IP keeps getting listed at
>> Spamhaus CSS (https://www.spamhaus.org/css/). I can manually de-list it
>> but it seems as though whenever we send out any mail we get re-listed. I
>> have tried contacting them but gotten nowhere.
>
>
> If you look up your IP at <http://www.abuseat.org/lookup.cgi>, what do
> you find?
>

IP Address 104.250.154.20 is not listed in the CBL.


However if I search at https://www.spamhaus.org/lookup/ I see:

104.250.154.20 is listed in the SBL, in the following records:

SBLCSS
104.250.154.20 is not listed in the PBL
104.250.154.20 is not listed in the XBL

I am wondering if the IP is or was in a range that has actual spammers.


-- 
Jim Ohlstein


"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the 
difference." - Mark Twain

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Apr 26 17:35:56 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 14:35:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RBL Management for new list/IP
In-Reply-To: <571FDA32.1000800@ohlste.in>
References: <571E0255.3020907@ohlste.in> <571FD666.8020906@msapiro.net>
 <571FDA32.1000800@ohlste.in>
Message-ID: <571FDF3C.7080608@msapiro.net>

On 04/26/2016 02:14 PM, Jim Ohlstein wrote:
> 
> However if I search at https://www.spamhaus.org/lookup/ I see:
> 
> 104.250.154.20 is listed in the SBL, in the following records:
> 
> SBLCSS
> 104.250.154.20 is not listed in the PBL
> 104.250.154.20 is not listed in the XBL


And if you follow the SBLCSS link, it's generic and not particularly
helpful.

It looks like your DNS and SPF are OK. Are you DKIM signing your
outgoing list mail and does your outgoing MTA identify it self as
lists.c2.social? These things can help.

Also, you don't publish a DMARC policy (I don't either), but the lack of
one, even if it would be p=none, can count against you. See, e.g.,
<https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jim at ohlste.in  Tue Apr 26 18:07:09 2016
From: jim at ohlste.in (Jim Ohlstein)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:07:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RBL Management for new list/IP
In-Reply-To: <571FDF3C.7080608@msapiro.net>
References: <571E0255.3020907@ohlste.in> <571FD666.8020906@msapiro.net>
 <571FDA32.1000800@ohlste.in> <571FDF3C.7080608@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <571FE68D.1020007@ohlste.in>

Hello,

On 4/26/16 5:35 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 04/26/2016 02:14 PM, Jim Ohlstein wrote:
>>
>> However if I search at https://www.spamhaus.org/lookup/ I see:
>>
>> 104.250.154.20 is listed in the SBL, in the following records:
>>
>> SBLCSS
>> 104.250.154.20 is not listed in the PBL
>> 104.250.154.20 is not listed in the XBL
>
>
> And if you follow the SBLCSS link, it's generic and not particularly
> helpful.

Exactly

>
> It looks like your DNS and SPF are OK. Are you DKIM signing your
> outgoing list mail and does your outgoing MTA identify it self as
> lists.c2.social? These things can help.

No on DKIM. Evidently Postfix and DKIM are not playing nicely on FreeBSD 
and would take some hacking. I may switch to Exim where DKIM support is 
easy to configure.

Yes on MTA identification:
  # telnet localhost 25
Trying 10.0.250.37...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 lists.c2.social ESMTP Postfix

>
> Also, you don't publish a DMARC policy (I don't either), but the lack of
> one, even if it would be p=none, can count against you. See, e.g.,
> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126>
>

Google is not blocking our mails. It's Yahoo, Comcast, gmx, etc. They 
seem to rely on Spamhaus.

I'm thinking this may be because the domain is brand new. Teach me to 
"volunteer" my time for an organization.

-- 
Jim Ohlstein


"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the 
difference." - Mark Twain

From jim at ohlste.in  Thu Apr 28 18:30:05 2016
From: jim at ohlste.in (Jim Ohlstein)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 18:30:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [SOLVED} RBL Management for new list/IP
In-Reply-To: <571FE68D.1020007@ohlste.in>
References: <571E0255.3020907@ohlste.in> <571FD666.8020906@msapiro.net>
 <571FDA32.1000800@ohlste.in> <571FDF3C.7080608@msapiro.net>
 <571FE68D.1020007@ohlste.in>
Message-ID: <57228EED.6030400@ohlste.in>

Hello,

On 4/26/16 6:07 PM, Jim Ohlstein wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On 4/26/16 5:35 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 04/26/2016 02:14 PM, Jim Ohlstein wrote:
>>>
>>> However if I search at https://www.spamhaus.org/lookup/ I see:
>>>
>>> 104.250.154.20 is listed in the SBL, in the following records:
>>>
>>> SBLCSS
>>> 104.250.154.20 is not listed in the PBL
>>> 104.250.154.20 is not listed in the XBL
>>
>>
>> And if you follow the SBLCSS link, it's generic and not particularly
>> helpful.
>
> Exactly
>
>>
>> It looks like your DNS and SPF are OK. Are you DKIM signing your
>> outgoing list mail and does your outgoing MTA identify it self as
>> lists.c2.social? These things can help.
>
> No on DKIM. Evidently Postfix and DKIM are not playing nicely on FreeBSD
> and would take some hacking. I may switch to Exim where DKIM support is
> easy to configure.
>
> Yes on MTA identification:
>   # telnet localhost 25
> Trying 10.0.250.37...
> Connected to localhost.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> 220 lists.c2.social ESMTP Postfix
>
>>
>> Also, you don't publish a DMARC policy (I don't either), but the lack of
>> one, even if it would be p=none, can count against you. See, e.g.,
>> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126>
>>
>
> Google is not blocking our mails. It's Yahoo, Comcast, gmx, etc. They
> seem to rely on Spamhaus.
>
> I'm thinking this may be because the domain is brand new. Teach me to
> "volunteer" my time for an organization.
>

I moved the list to a subdomain of a 10 year old domain that I own on an 
IP on a different /20 in a different datacenter and the problem is 
resolved. It was either the IP, or more likely, the fact that it was a 
newly registered domain.

Thanks for your help.

-- 
Jim Ohlstein


"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the 
difference." - Mark Twain

From holly at iowashares.org  Fri Apr 29 13:42:29 2016
From: holly at iowashares.org (Holly Hart)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:42:29 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Seeking Information re: mailman admin page bug
Message-ID: <da99a9d621ebcd79f2ace69a36100424@iowashares.org>

Hello,

I work for an organization that uses several Mailman email lists which I 
administer.  Starting a couple weeks ago (apparently), the admin request 
page commands have ceased to function:  messages held in the queue 
remain stuck there, regardless of attempts to discard, reject or accept.

The source of the issue is apparently on Python's end.  
Unfortunately,there is no way to receive a timely response to what 
should be a basic inquiry (and probably something easy to fix).

Have others experienced this bug?  Does anyone here know how to fix 
this?


-- 
Holly Hart
Program Coordinator, Iowa Shares
www.iowashares.org
319.338.1446 (office)
319.331.91616 (cell)

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Apr 30 19:15:47 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 08:15:47 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Seeking Information re: mailman admin page bug
In-Reply-To: <da99a9d621ebcd79f2ace69a36100424@iowashares.org>
References: <da99a9d621ebcd79f2ace69a36100424@iowashares.org>
Message-ID: <22309.15523.776452.687580@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Holly Hart writes:

 > I work for an organization that uses several Mailman email lists
 > which I administer.  Starting a couple weeks ago (apparently), the
 > admin request page commands have ceased to function: messages held
 > in the queue remain stuck there, regardless of attempts to discard,
 > reject or accept.

It appears that your hosts with names ending in "iowashares.org" are
provided by Bluehost.com.  Is one of them the host where your mailing
lists are served?  (I'm going to assume that is true.)

Do you have "root" or "administrator" access to the host itself, with
a terminal login, or do you only have access through web forms such as
cPanel or Plesk?  If the latter, you will absolutely have to get
service from Bluehost, or move your mailing lists to another host
where you have better access or get better service.

Regarding the problem itself, what version of Mailman do you have?
It appears all your lists are involved.  Is that true?
How many messages are held in the queues?

 > The source of the issue is apparently on Python's end.

How do you know that?  What version of Python is in use?

 > Unfortunately,there is no way to receive a timely response to what 
 > should be a basic inquiry (and probably something easy to fix).
 > 
 > Have others experienced this bug?  Does anyone here know how to fix 
 > this?

Do either of the following resemble your problem?  I doubt it, but
they're the closest I can recall in the FAQ.  The "list locked"
problem seems more likely, but I don't understand why you would have
that problem with all lists at the same time.  Note also that the "-1"
problem has been fixed in later versions than 2.1.5, and you almost
certainly do have a more recent version.

https://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.76%20I%20can%27t%20access%20one%20of%20my%20lists%20via%20the%20web%20interface.%20%20One%20of%20my%20lists%20is%20not%20sending%20mail.%20List%20locked.
https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Why%20am%20I%20receiving%20moderation%20requests%20that%20read%20...mailing%20list%20has%20-1%20request%28s%29%20waiting...%20%3F

Regards,
Steve