From eric at safecomputing.org  Sat Sep  2 12:19:58 2017
From: eric at safecomputing.org (Eric)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2017 09:19:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] IncomingRunner absent
Message-ID: <00a301d32407$52a2fa60$f7e8ef20$@safecomputing.org>

My IncomingRunner is absent and I do not know why. Messages just sit in
~mailman/qfiles/in.

 

/mailman# ps auxww | egrep 'p[y]thon'

root      5686  0.0  0.2 265576  5380 ?        Sl   Aug08   8:53
/usr/bin/python /usr/bin/fail2ban-server -b -s
/var/run/fail2ban/fail2ban.sock -p /var/run/fail2ban/fail2ban.pid

list     10721  0.0  0.0  54932   500 ?        S    Aug30   0:37
/usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s

list     10722  0.0  0.0  54924   624 ?        S    Aug30   0:00
/usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s

list     10723  0.0  0.0  92584   696 ?        S    Aug30   0:41
/usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s

list     10724  0.0  0.0  54940   448 ?        S    Aug30   0:37
/usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s

list     10725  0.0  0.0  54908   448 ?        S    Aug30   0:36
/usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s

list     10726  0.0  0.0  54888   448 ?        S    Aug30   0:33
/usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s

list     10732  0.0  0.0  56556   476 ?        S    Aug30   1:23
/usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s

list     22691  0.0  0.0  63428     4 ?        Ss   Aug15   0:00
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -q start

 

How can this be and what do I need to do to fix it?

 

Eric

 


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Sep  3 10:31:52 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 07:31:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] IncomingRunner absent
In-Reply-To: <00a301d32407$52a2fa60$f7e8ef20$@safecomputing.org>
References: <00a301d32407$52a2fa60$f7e8ef20$@safecomputing.org>
Message-ID: <c512735c-5f44-2fd9-53fa-86ba2c2eeab9@msapiro.net>

On 09/02/2017 09:19 AM, Eric wrote:
> My IncomingRunner is absent and I do not know why. Messages just sit in
> ~mailman/qfiles/in.
...
> How can this be and what do I need to do to fix it?


IncomingRunner is dying for some reason. Check Mailman's 'qrunner' and
'error' logs for information about why.

Normally, when a qrunner dies, the mailmanctl process will see this and
restart it up to a maximum of 10 times, after which it gives up.

You need to get the exception and traceback from the error log and
figure out the problem and fix it and then stop and start Mailman.

I suspect the issue is due to the queue entry being processed in which
case you can probably just move aside the oldest .pck (or maybe .bak)
file in qfiles/in/ and stop and start Mailman, but I would like to get
copies of both the offending qfiles/in/ file and the traceback and other
info from Mailman's error and qrunner logs, to see if there is something
that needs to be fixed in the code.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From larry at qhpress.org  Sun Sep  3 14:28:00 2017
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2017 14:28:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] individual moderation notices stopped suddenly
Message-ID: <59AC49B0.2060700@qhpress.org>

Currently running Mailman 2.1.9 with a low-volume moderated list called 
kuenning-relatives at qhpress.org.  I'm supposed to receive notifications 
of posts to be moderated at kuenning-relatives-owner at qhpress.org, both 
as single notifications as the posts come in and as daily batch 
notifications (normally at 8:00 AM) if there are any accumulated posts 
from the day before.

On Aug. 31 I received, as usual, a single-post notification,
 > Subject: Kuenning-Relatives post from [user at domain] requires approval
which I acted on promptly.

On Sept. 1 at 8:00 AM I received a daily summary notification,
 > Subject: 1 Kuenning-Relatives moderator request(s) waiting
covering one post for which there had _not_ been a single-post 
notification (not the above post but a reply to it).

Again this morning, Sept. 3, I got another summary,
 > Subject: 4 Kuenning-Relatives moderator request(s) waiting
covering 4 posts for _none_ of which there had been any single-post 
notification.

This sudden and unexpected loss of the immediate single-post 
notifications naturally makes it harder to moderate the posts in a 
timely fashion.

No changes were made to the list or the mailman setup during the 
relevant time period.

Where should I look in the mailman logs for clues about what's wrong?  I 
tried cd-ing to the log directory (/var/log/mailman) and grepping for 
the notification address kuenning-relatives-owner at qhpress.org, but 
nothing turned up.

P.S.  I know I'd be better off if I could upgrade from 2.1.9 to 
something that can cope with DMARC, but this is a Plesk setup and I'm 
afraid to mess with it for fear of breaking something.  Any advice about 
this would be welcome but isn't the main subject of this query.

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org


From larry at qhpress.org  Sun Sep  3 14:57:33 2017
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2017 14:57:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] individual moderation notices stopped suddenly
In-Reply-To: <59AC49B0.2060700@qhpress.org>
References: <59AC49B0.2060700@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <59AC509D.8090204@qhpress.org>

I may have just figured out the key difference between posts for which I 
get single moderation notices and those for which I don't.  Some of my 
subscribers are set to individual moderation, and for them I get the 
single-post notices.  Then the whole list was more recently set to 
"emergency moderation," and there are no single-post notices for posts 
that are moderated for that reason only.

I suppose this means that the only way to get immediate notification of 
every single post is to set all subscribers to moderated status?

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Sep  3 15:05:28 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 12:05:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] individual moderation notices stopped suddenly
In-Reply-To: <59AC509D.8090204@qhpress.org>
References: <59AC49B0.2060700@qhpress.org> <59AC509D.8090204@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <426a23f8-d95c-c47a-4fdc-c79c832bc24c@msapiro.net>

On 09/03/2017 11:57 AM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> I may have just figured out the key difference between posts for which I
> get single moderation notices and those for which I don't.  Some of my
> subscribers are set to individual moderation, and for them I get the
> single-post notices.  Then the whole list was more recently set to
> "emergency moderation," and there are no single-post notices for posts
> that are moderated for that reason only.


That's correct. No owner notifications are sent for 'emergency
moderation'. As the code says:

No notices are sent to either the sender or the list owner for emergency
holds.  I think they'd be too obnoxious.


> I suppose this means that the only way to get immediate notification of
> every single post is to set all subscribers to moderated status?


That's correct.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sun Sep  3 15:11:08 2017
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 15:11:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] individual moderation notices stopped suddenly
In-Reply-To: <59AC509D.8090204@qhpress.org>
References: <59AC49B0.2060700@qhpress.org> <59AC509D.8090204@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <e5ed9078-5eed-bb72-3a72-161973b8b599@Damon-Family.org>

On 9/3/17 2:57 PM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> I may have just figured out the key difference between posts for which 
> I get single moderation notices and those for which I don't.? Some of 
> my subscribers are set to individual moderation, and for them I get 
> the single-post notices.? Then the whole list was more recently set to 
> "emergency moderation," and there are no single-post notices for posts 
> that are moderated for that reason only.
>
> I suppose this means that the only way to get immediate notification 
> of every single post is to set all subscribers to moderated status?
>
I believe it is intentional that you do not get notified for post held 
for 'emergency moderation'. My understanding of the purpose of 
'emergency moderation' is for a short term emergency when a lot of 'bad' 
posts (like spam) are getting to the list. It is intended to be a short 
term patch till you can figure out a better method, then you will turn 
off the emergency moderation. In this case you will likely get flooded 
with moderation messages for posts held for the emergency moderation, 
and you are likely going to be able to check the web interface 
frequently while you are working on it.


-- 
Richard Damon


From larry at qhpress.org  Sun Sep  3 17:19:14 2017
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2017 17:19:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] individual moderation notices stopped suddenly
In-Reply-To: <e5ed9078-5eed-bb72-3a72-161973b8b599@Damon-Family.org>
References: <59AC49B0.2060700@qhpress.org> <59AC509D.8090204@qhpress.org>
 <e5ed9078-5eed-bb72-3a72-161973b8b599@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <59AC71D2.8070205@qhpress.org>

On 9/3/2017 3:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

> I believe it is intentional that you do not get notified for post held
> for 'emergency moderation'. My understanding of the purpose of
> 'emergency moderation' is for a short term emergency when a lot of 'bad'
> posts (like spam) are getting to the list. It is intended to be a short
> term patch till you can figure out a better method, then you will turn
> off the emergency moderation. In this case you will likely get flooded
> with moderation messages for posts held for the emergency moderation,
> and you are likely going to be able to check the web interface
> frequently while you are working on it.

I see.  That makes sense for the typical high-volume "emergency" such as 
a spam attack or flame war.

In my case the "emergency" on this very low-volume list was that one 
cousin had requested other cousins' personal data to help arrange an 
aunt's bequests, and the list's reply_goes_to_list setting was creating 
a risk of the requested private info being accidentally sent to too many 
recipients.  I could have turned off reply_goes_to_list but most 
subscribers were used to the old setting.

Thanks, I guess my technical questions have been answered (apart from 
the probably unanswerable matter of how to get Plesk to accept a recent 
version of mailman).

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org


From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sun Sep  3 17:45:45 2017
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 17:45:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] individual moderation notices stopped suddenly
In-Reply-To: <59AC71D2.8070205@qhpress.org>
References: <59AC49B0.2060700@qhpress.org> <59AC509D.8090204@qhpress.org>
 <e5ed9078-5eed-bb72-3a72-161973b8b599@Damon-Family.org>
 <59AC71D2.8070205@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <8874c9c6-8d8f-9a8f-0438-559113a912b3@Damon-Family.org>

On 9/3/17 5:19 PM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> On 9/3/2017 3:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>
>> I believe it is intentional that you do not get notified for post held
>> for 'emergency moderation'. My understanding of the purpose of
>> 'emergency moderation' is for a short term emergency when a lot of 'bad'
>> posts (like spam) are getting to the list. It is intended to be a short
>> term patch till you can figure out a better method, then you will turn
>> off the emergency moderation. In this case you will likely get flooded
>> with moderation messages for posts held for the emergency moderation,
>> and you are likely going to be able to check the web interface
>> frequently while you are working on it.
>
> I see.? That makes sense for the typical high-volume "emergency" such 
> as a spam attack or flame war.
>
> In my case the "emergency" on this very low-volume list was that one 
> cousin had requested other cousins' personal data to help arrange an 
> aunt's bequests, and the list's reply_goes_to_list setting was 
> creating a risk of the requested private info being accidentally sent 
> to too many recipients.? I could have turned off reply_goes_to_list 
> but most subscribers were used to the old setting.
>
> Thanks, I guess my technical questions have been answered (apart from 
> the probably unanswerable matter of how to get Plesk to accept a 
> recent version of mailman).
>
Sounds like you don't really have an 'Emergency Moderation' issue but 
changing a policy of a (mostly) unmoderated list to a fully moderated list.

One other option if people are just pressing Reply All, is to create a 
filter for the Subject of that message, so you can review replies to it.

-- 
Richard Damon


From larry at qhpress.org  Mon Sep  4 15:18:33 2017
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2017 15:18:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] individual moderation notices stopped suddenly
In-Reply-To: <8874c9c6-8d8f-9a8f-0438-559113a912b3@Damon-Family.org>
References: <59AC49B0.2060700@qhpress.org> <59AC509D.8090204@qhpress.org>
 <e5ed9078-5eed-bb72-3a72-161973b8b599@Damon-Family.org>
 <59AC71D2.8070205@qhpress.org>
 <8874c9c6-8d8f-9a8f-0438-559113a912b3@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <59ADA709.7060904@qhpress.org>

A new question about the same list:

Can a submitted e-mail, stupidly deleted by list owner (me) through the 
list administration web interface, be somehow reconstructed if the 
option "Forward messages (individually) to: [owner address]" was 
previously checked and the resulting e-mail-to-owner still exists?

There is no single-message notification to owner because this one was 
held only through "emergency moderation."

Shell access with root privileges is available, and I've already wasted 
some time there trying to reconstruct a heldmsg-*.pck file by copying 
one for another message and trying to substitute data from the deleted 
message.  This doesn't seem to create anything mailman is willing to use 
(unsurprisingly, since I don't understand mailman's internal data storage).

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Sep  4 20:34:08 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 17:34:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] individual moderation notices stopped suddenly
In-Reply-To: <59ADA709.7060904@qhpress.org>
References: <59AC49B0.2060700@qhpress.org> <59AC509D.8090204@qhpress.org>
 <e5ed9078-5eed-bb72-3a72-161973b8b599@Damon-Family.org>
 <59AC71D2.8070205@qhpress.org>
 <8874c9c6-8d8f-9a8f-0438-559113a912b3@Damon-Family.org>
 <59ADA709.7060904@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <6dca006b-851d-f4cf-52ad-a10bbf958368@msapiro.net>

On 09/04/2017 12:18 PM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> 
> Can a submitted e-mail, stupidly deleted by list owner (me) through the
> list administration web interface, be somehow reconstructed if the
> option "Forward messages (individually) to: [owner address]" was
> previously checked and the resulting e-mail-to-owner still exists?


Yes. The message as received by the list is attached to the "forward" to
the owner. Some mail clients will allow you to open the attached message
and "bounce" it to the list. In the worst case, you can save that
attached message to a file and then use Mailman's bin/inject to post it

bin/inject -l LISTNAME /path/to/saved/email

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From iank at fsf.org  Tue Sep  5 10:55:01 2017
From: iank at fsf.org (Ian Kelling)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2017 07:55:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to blocking malicious subscription requests?
Message-ID: <87bmmpb3ga.fsf@x2>

There is at least one very major mail provider where
joe+any_string at domain goes to the inbox of joe by default, allowing bad
people to get my mailman instance to send many subscription mails to
joe+random_string at domain, messing up joe's inbox, because mailman just
sees different addresses. Can mailman stop doing this? If not, I'm open
to an exim rule to block or at least rate limit mailman from doing this
too.

Also, is there a way to rate limit subscription requests even for the
exact same email address? For example, don't allow someone to subscribe
to list b if they have > 5 unconfirmed subscription requests in the last
day?

--
Ian Kelling | Senior Systems Administrator, Free Software Foundation
GPG Key: B125 F60B 7B28 7FF6 A2B7  DF8F 170A F0E2 9542 95DF
https://fsf.org | https://gnu.org

From david at midrange.com  Tue Sep  5 12:09:36 2017
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 11:09:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to blocking malicious subscription requests?
In-Reply-To: <87bmmpb3ga.fsf@x2>
References: <87bmmpb3ga.fsf@x2>
Message-ID: <oomi7p$4hd$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 9/5/2017 9:55 AM, Ian Kelling wrote:
> There is at least one very major mail provider where
> joe+any_string at domain goes to the inbox of joe by default, allowing
> bad people to get my mailman instance to send many subscription mails
> to joe+random_string at domain, messing up joe's inbox, because mailman
> just sees different addresses. Can mailman stop doing this? If not,
> I'm open to an exim rule to block or at least rate limit mailman from
> doing this too.

You can use BAN_LIST on a list by list basis or GLOBAL_BAN_LIST in the config (in MM 2.1.21).

My observation about the attack is that they are doing a GET on the subscribe page to retrieve the hidden sub_form_token form field value and then doing a post to do the subscribe.

I modified the source for my install of MM to change the hidden field name.

I've had no successful or unsuccessful subscribe attempts since.

david


-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding a metric century (100 km / 65 miles) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by visiting http://gmane.diabetessucks.net.  My goal is $6000 but any amount is appreciated.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... http://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From tlhackque at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 12:12:36 2017
From: tlhackque at yahoo.com (tlhackque)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 12:12:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to blocking malicious subscription requests?
In-Reply-To: <87bmmpb3ga.fsf@x2>
References: <87bmmpb3ga.fsf@x2>
Message-ID: <12b14653-f5fc-2866-4e8b-a3419cc530b7@yahoo.com>

On 05-Sep-17 10:55, Ian Kelling wrote:
> There is at least one very major mail provider where
> joe+any_string at domain goes to the inbox of joe by default, allowing bad
> people to get my mailman instance to send many subscription mails to
> joe+random_string at domain, messing up joe's inbox, because mailman just
> sees different addresses. Can mailman stop doing this? If not, I'm open
> to an exim rule to block or at least rate limit mailman from doing this
> too.
This is correct behavior by both the mail service provider and by mailman.

The way to address the anti-social behavior described is to implement a
captcha, which
will effectively rate-limit subscription requests by bad actors -
usually to close to zero.

This has been discussed recently on this list.
> Also, is there a way to rate limit subscription requests even for the
> exact same email address? For example, don't allow someone to subscribe
> to list b if they have > 5 unconfirmed subscription requests in the last
> day?
I don't think so, but others more expert may respond.  If not, it seems
like a reasonable
feature request for MM3.  But a captcha will probably have the effect
that you want.

I use reCAPTCHA (now hosted by Google).  It seems to stay ahead of the
captcha-solver bots
most of the time.  It's important to choose one that is accessible to
people with disabilities.
> --
> Ian Kelling | Senior Systems Administrator, Free Software Foundation
> GPG Key: B125 F60B 7B28 7FF6 A2B7  DF8F 170A F0E2 9542 95DF
> https://fsf.org | https://gnu.org
>


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Tue Sep  5 12:45:11 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 10:45:11 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to blocking malicious subscription requests?
In-Reply-To: <87bmmpb3ga.fsf@x2>
References: <87bmmpb3ga.fsf@x2>
Message-ID: <aed1dd2a-63fc-fdf2-8093-59d26e8b2d95@tnetconsulting.net>

On 09/05/2017 08:55 AM, Ian Kelling wrote:
> There is at least one very major mail provider where 
> joe+any_string at domain goes to the inbox of joe by default,

Is Mailman aware of user+detail?  Or does is it naively view the entire 
userpart as distinct?  Thus allowing as many many subscriptions using 
detail as possible?

I know of at least one very major mail provider (possibly the same one) 
that removes dots from the user part.  So the following addresses are 
equivalent.

u.s.e.r at example.net
user at example.net
us.er at example.net
...

The same type of thing could be exploited without user+detail.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Sep  5 13:04:34 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 10:04:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to blocking malicious subscription requests?
In-Reply-To: <aed1dd2a-63fc-fdf2-8093-59d26e8b2d95@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <87bmmpb3ga.fsf@x2>
 <aed1dd2a-63fc-fdf2-8093-59d26e8b2d95@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <179fa315-07bb-398f-e116-bba7782a4adf@msapiro.net>

On 09/05/2017 09:45 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Is Mailman aware of user+detail?  Or does is it naively view the entire
> userpart as distinct?  Thus allowing as many many subscriptions using
> detail as possible?
> 
> I know of at least one very major mail provider (possibly the same one)
> that removes dots from the user part.  So the following addresses are
> equivalent.


Mailman 2.1.x considers all these to be different users. E.g.

joe at example.com
joe+mm_list at example.com
joe+other at example.com
j.oe at example.com

are four distinct users as far as Mailman is concerned.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jra at baylink.com  Tue Sep  5 13:22:30 2017
From: jra at baylink.com (Jay R. Ashworth)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 17:22:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to blocking malicious subscription requests?
In-Reply-To: <179fa315-07bb-398f-e116-bba7782a4adf@msapiro.net>
References: <87bmmpb3ga.fsf@x2>
 <aed1dd2a-63fc-fdf2-8093-59d26e8b2d95@tnetconsulting.net>
 <179fa315-07bb-398f-e116-bba7782a4adf@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <661023197.1023863.1504632150353.JavaMail.zimbra@baylink.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net>

> On 09/05/2017 09:45 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
>> 
>> Is Mailman aware of user+detail?  Or does is it naively view the entire
>> userpart as distinct?  Thus allowing as many many subscriptions using
>> detail as possible?
>> 
>> I know of at least one very major mail provider (possibly the same one)
>> that removes dots from the user part.  So the following addresses are
>> equivalent.
> 
> 
> Mailman 2.1.x considers all these to be different users. E.g.
> 
> joe at example.com
> joe+mm_list at example.com
> joe+other at example.com
> j.oe at example.com
> 
> are four distinct users as far as Mailman is concerned.

And, albeit arguably, I think that's the correct behavior.  Plushacking is
a hack specifically to make recipient filtering easier and more reliable;
since you cant expect outsiders to assume it, you have to yourself treat it
as separate mailboxes, and assume they will as well.  As mailman does.

It is, in short, a way to create additional recipient mailboxes when 
the user in question doesn't have administrative permission to do that;
assuming the user's receiving MUA will do the right thing -- but that's 
the only computer it requires you to make an assumption about.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       jra at baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates       http://www.bcp38.info          2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA      BCP38: Ask For It By Name!           +1 727 647 1274

From iank at fsf.org  Wed Sep  6 21:54:32 2017
From: iank at fsf.org (Ian Kelling)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2017 18:54:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message stuck in held messages queue. Why,
 how to fix?
In-Reply-To: <7c9ffd0b-b830-03e0-0b26-fcb57df12cb3@msapiro.net>
References: <87mv6pkm9u.fsf@x2>
 <7c9ffd0b-b830-03e0-0b26-fcb57df12cb3@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87lglr9stj.fsf@x2>


Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> writes:

> On 08/24/2017 08:39 AM, Ian Kelling wrote:
>> I mark it as accept then submit, the request returns 200, the page
>> reappears and the message is still there. Why?
>>
>> Things I wonder if they are related:
>> * Under the message, it says "The sender is now a member of this list"
>> * The post goes over http, but the get requests are over https.
>
>
> See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030602> and steps 2 and 3 at
> <https://wiki.list.org/x/17892007>.

Thank you Mark! That was it. Silly mistake.

--
Ian Kelling | Senior Systems Administrator, Free Software Foundation
GPG Key: B125 F60B 7B28 7FF6 A2B7  DF8F 170A F0E2 9542 95DF
https://fsf.org | https://gnu.org

From sebastian.kotthoff at rz.uni-mannheim.de  Thu Sep  7 16:27:33 2017
From: sebastian.kotthoff at rz.uni-mannheim.de (Sebastian Kotthoff)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 22:27:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confusion with Mailman3 Config
Message-ID: <20170907202732.GA1945@debian>

Hello everybody,

after installing mailman3 successfully (took me 5 evenings), I'm now confused about the configuration.
I'm using postorius, which is very nice and where I'm able to configure the most stuff.
Today I figured out, how to change the default email templates for domains/list in the filesystem.

But now, I like to change the default language of a list from English to German,
so that the German templates are selected.

I found some hint in URL: https://pythonhosted.org/mailman/src/mailman/commands/docs/create.html,
where they use a command line (mailman client or mailman shell?) to change the language during creation.

This does not work for me, but the mayer point is, that I got lost between the different kinds of interfaces.
It seems, that there are:
- Rest server API          - start via ".local/bin/ipython3" in my environment?
- Rest client API          - start via "ipython" ?
- mailmanclient / mmclient - start via "python manage.py mmclient" in mailman-suite_project
- mailman shell            - start via ".local/bin/mailman shell"

What would be the best way of configure a mailing list?

The howto from the URL above is working with the mailman shell for me, but unfortunately, it is
about creating mailling lists, not creating. Are there any howto about modify a maillist?

Thanks,

Sebastian
-- 
Sebastian Kotthoff
Rechenzentrum
Universit?t Mannheim
B6, 23-29; Building B; Room 1.10
68159 Mannheim

Tel: +49 621 181 2516
Fax: +49 621 181 2682


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Sep  8 10:57:30 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 07:57:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confusion with Mailman3 Config
In-Reply-To: <20170907202732.GA1945@debian>
References: <20170907202732.GA1945@debian>
Message-ID: <391c0189-c617-9c70-2cae-2c0e3be17aa5@msapiro.net>

On 09/07/2017 01:27 PM, Sebastian Kotthoff wrote:
> 
> after installing mailman3 successfully (took me 5 evenings), I'm now confused about the configuration.


A more appropriate list for Mailman 3 is mailman-users at mailman3.org
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>.


> But now, I like to change the default language of a list from English to German,
> so that the German templates are selected.
> 
> I found some hint in URL: https://pythonhosted.org/mailman/src/mailman/commands/docs/create.html,
> where they use a command line (mailman client or mailman shell?) to change the language during creation.


A more up to date (and more nicely rendered) version of this is at
<http://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/commands/docs/create.html>.


> This does not work for me, but the mayer point is, that I got lost between the different kinds of interfaces.


There are currently no i18n translations for Mailman 3. Thus setting the
list's preferred language to German will have no real effect.


> It seems, that there are:
> - Rest server API          - start via ".local/bin/ipython3" in my environment?
> - Rest client API          - start via "ipython" ?
> - mailmanclient / mmclient - start via "python manage.py mmclient" in mailman-suite_project
> - mailman shell            - start via ".local/bin/mailman shell"
> 
> What would be the best way of configure a mailing list?


For configuration settings not exposed in Postorius, 'mailman shell' is
preferred. If a setting is not exposed in Postorius, there is no
guarantee it is exposed in the REST API either and even if it is, it may
not be exposed in mailmanclient.


> The howto from the URL above is working with the mailman shell for me, but unfortunately, it is
> about creating mailling lists, not creating. Are there any howto about modify a maillist?


See
<http://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/commands/docs/shell.html>.
Here's a simple example:

$ mailman shell -l test at mailman3.org
Welcome to the GNU Mailman shell
The variable 'm' is the test at mailman3.org mailing list
>>> m.preferred_language
<Language [en] English (USA)>
>>> m.preferred_language='de'
>>> m.preferred_language
<Language [de] German>
>>> commit()
>>>

The 'commit()' isn't necessary if you just exit (control-D) as that does
an implicit commit, but if you do a series of changes, without commit(),
you can reverse them with abort().

Also note that the above 'mailman shell -l test at mailman3.org' is the
latests syntax. Older versions may not use '-l' before the list name.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From sebastian.kotthoff at rz.uni-mannheim.de  Sun Sep 10 15:35:52 2017
From: sebastian.kotthoff at rz.uni-mannheim.de (Sebastian Kotthoff)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 21:35:52 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confusion with Mailman3 Config
In-Reply-To: <391c0189-c617-9c70-2cae-2c0e3be17aa5@msapiro.net>
References: <20170907202732.GA1945@debian>
 <391c0189-c617-9c70-2cae-2c0e3be17aa5@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20170910193552.GA1082@debian>


Thank you very much!
Mailman Shell is working now (-l is available in my shell, maybe little older - mailman 3.1)


Thanks,

Sebastian

On Fri, Sep 08, 2017 at 07:57:30AM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 09/07/2017 01:27 PM, Sebastian Kotthoff wrote:
> > 
> > after installing mailman3 successfully (took me 5 evenings), I'm now confused about the configuration.
> 
> 
> A more appropriate list for Mailman 3 is mailman-users at mailman3.org
> <https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>.
> 
> 
> > But now, I like to change the default language of a list from English to German,
> > so that the German templates are selected.
> > 
> > I found some hint in URL: https://pythonhosted.org/mailman/src/mailman/commands/docs/create.html,
> > where they use a command line (mailman client or mailman shell?) to change the language during creation.
> 
> 
> A more up to date (and more nicely rendered) version of this is at
> <http://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/commands/docs/create.html>.
> 
> 
> > This does not work for me, but the mayer point is, that I got lost between the different kinds of interfaces.
> 
> 
> There are currently no i18n translations for Mailman 3. Thus setting the
> list's preferred language to German will have no real effect.
> 
> 
> > It seems, that there are:
> > - Rest server API          - start via ".local/bin/ipython3" in my environment?
> > - Rest client API          - start via "ipython" ?
> > - mailmanclient / mmclient - start via "python manage.py mmclient" in mailman-suite_project
> > - mailman shell            - start via ".local/bin/mailman shell"
> > 
> > What would be the best way of configure a mailing list?
> 
> 
> For configuration settings not exposed in Postorius, 'mailman shell' is
> preferred. If a setting is not exposed in Postorius, there is no
> guarantee it is exposed in the REST API either and even if it is, it may
> not be exposed in mailmanclient.
> 
> 
> > The howto from the URL above is working with the mailman shell for me, but unfortunately, it is
> > about creating mailling lists, not creating. Are there any howto about modify a maillist?
> 
> 
> See
> <http://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/commands/docs/shell.html>.
> Here's a simple example:
> 
> $ mailman shell -l test at mailman3.org
> Welcome to the GNU Mailman shell
> The variable 'm' is the test at mailman3.org mailing list
> >>> m.preferred_language
> <Language [en] English (USA)>
> >>> m.preferred_language='de'
> >>> m.preferred_language
> <Language [de] German>
> >>> commit()
> >>>
> 
> The 'commit()' isn't necessary if you just exit (control-D) as that does
> an implicit commit, but if you do a series of changes, without commit(),
> you can reverse them with abort().
> 
> Also note that the above 'mailman shell -l test at mailman3.org' is the
> latests syntax. Older versions may not use '-l' before the list name.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/sebastian.kotthoff%40rz.uni-mannheim.de

-- 
Sebastian Kotthoff
Rechenzentrum
Universit?t Mannheim
B6, 23-29; Building B; Room 1.10
68159 Mannheim

Tel: +49 621 181 2516
Fax: +49 621 181 2682


From njchazzan at gmail.com  Mon Sep 11 07:15:09 2017
From: njchazzan at gmail.com (Menachem Bazian)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 07:15:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.23
Message-ID: <CANHO==jFD=s=fxbLiB_dTtdxuZ+riEDipSQc5JkL0bf2Lpqx7g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I inherited an install of Mailman and I know very little about it. I have
been able to do most tasks (it's pretty intuitive) but I can't get in to
the admindb portion of the program. I can login but when I do I get this:

Bug in Mailman version 2.1.23 We're sorry, we hit a bug!

Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of
traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, but
the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.


The list resides on a host so I do not believe that I have command line
access. I have no idea even where I can see the mailman error logs.

Can someone point me in the right direction on this?
Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Sep 11 21:09:52 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:09:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.23
In-Reply-To: <CANHO==jFD=s=fxbLiB_dTtdxuZ+riEDipSQc5JkL0bf2Lpqx7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANHO==jFD=s=fxbLiB_dTtdxuZ+riEDipSQc5JkL0bf2Lpqx7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8e1ddbec-fc2c-0639-ce92-5a44ad9cb312@msapiro.net>

On 09/11/2017 04:15 AM, Menachem Bazian wrote:
> 
> I inherited an install of Mailman and I know very little about it. I have
> been able to do most tasks (it's pretty intuitive) but I can't get in to
> the admindb portion of the program. I can login but when I do I get this:
> 
> Bug in Mailman version 2.1.23 We're sorry, we hit a bug!
...
> The list resides on a host so I do not believe that I have command line
> access. I have no idea even where I can see the mailman error logs.
> 
> Can someone point me in the right direction on this?


Diagnosing and fixing this problem will undoubtedly require more access
to the Mailman host machine than you have. You need to work with the
hosting service to resolve this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From anon_777 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 16 22:30:49 2017
From: anon_777 at hotmail.com (Terry .)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2017 02:30:49 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
In-Reply-To: <KL1PR06MB104595D4912564F4943F9944A96C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <KL1PR06MB104595D4912564F4943F9944A96C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <KL1PR06MB1045BC9A1B8649FA07BF68A7A9620@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Mark & others,

Sorry for the delay in responding, and thanks for your generous offer of working with my webhost and/or cPanel to solve this.  I passed that offer to my webhost, but it seems they have been able to sort it out with cPanel themselves.  Here is the response from my webhost:
==========================================
The issue with @mydomain.com was caused due to the setting "Discard the email while your server processes it at SMTP time with an error message" under cPanel>>Email>>Default Address. We've setup "Forward to Email Address" to catchall at mydomain.com<mailto:catchall at mydomain.com>.  As cPanel support explained, this indicates that all mail that is delivered, but does not have an address (like mailman-bounces@) on this server will be delivered to the default account - this can potentially pose the risk of the email account receiving email for accounts that do not exist, something commonly seen when a domain is being spoofed.  Otherwise, it will be rejected with "No such user here".
==========================================
They then provided some evidence from a log that the problem was fixed.

I then tested lists in all 7 domains, and they all sent subscribe/unsubscribe emails to me perfectly.
I then asked Jim Dory (who has participated in this thread) to setup a default address for his list, and it worked for him, too.

I?m confused by the wording of the above paragraph from the webhost, but maybe they mean that the server is configured to not allow emails to be sent out *from* addresses which can?t receive emails, and this is to help reduce outbound spam.  (For years I?ve known that the webhost was fighting outbound spam by preventing email from being sent out from *domains* which I don?t have on that server, but maybe this even applies to the address level.)  So, I guess when Mailman tries to send a subscribe/unsubscribe notification email out from mailman-bounces at mydomain.com<mailto:mailman-bounces at mydomain.com> to the list owner address, maybe the server blocks it, since that mailman-bounces at mydomain.com<mailto:mailman-bounces at mydomain.com> address doesn?t exist, as such.  I tested this theory using a less overkill approach, by not using the "catchall" default address method, but just creating a forwarder (alias) for the address mailman-bounces at mydomain.com<mailto:mailman-bounces at mydomain.com> which redirects its mail to one of my mailboxes (even to my catchall mailbox), and that seemed to work!  I don't think this is to provide an address which will receive emails resulting from subscribes/unsubscribes (since I don't think that process sends anything *to* the mailman-bounces at ... address), but just to satisfy the anti-spam requirements of the system that every sending address should be able to receive email, not just bounce it.
Any thoughts on this, Mark/others?  Confused?

I can only imagine that the problems started recently due to some update to cPanel or other change by the webhost, because having looked through the history of my subscribe/unsubscribe email notifications, it looks as if the problems only started a few months ago, but I don?t think I?ve made relevant changes to those domains for years.  (When I asked the webhost about this, they responded "Unfortunately, we cannot be sure about this. The cPanel representatives haven't mentioned about any recent changes to the Exim configuration.")

Anyway, here is a summary of my subscribe/unsubscribe notification problems that seem to have been resolved by setting the default addresses for my domains to my catchall address, instead of bouncing emails sent to non-existent addresses:

  1.  For some of my domains/lists I?d receive notifications as *attachments* to emails which have the subject ?Bounce action notification? (as per my 1st post).
  2.  For some of my domains/lists I?d receive subscribe emails as *attachments*, but not receive anything for unsubscribes.  (Might be the other way round sometimes.)
  3.  For some of my domains/lists I?d receive no subscribe or unsubscribe emails at all (as per my 3rd post).
Thanks.
Terry

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Mon Sep 18 04:20:10 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:20:10 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
In-Reply-To: <KL1PR06MB1045BC9A1B8649FA07BF68A7A9620@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <KL1PR06MB104595D4912564F4943F9944A96C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <KL1PR06MB1045BC9A1B8649FA07BF68A7A9620@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <22975.33210.35652.332865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Terry . writes:

 > Sorry for the delay in responding, and thanks for your generous
 > offer of working with my webhost and/or cPanel to solve this.  I
 > passed that offer to my webhost, but it seems they have been able
 > to sort it out with cPanel themselves.

 > I then tested lists in all 7 domains, and they all sent
 > subscribe/unsubscribe emails to me perfectly.  I then asked Jim
 > Dory (who has participated in this thread) to setup a default
 > address for his list, and it worked for him, too.

Great!!

 > ==========================================
 > The issue with @mydomain.com was caused due to the setting "Discard
 > the email while your server processes it at SMTP time with an error
 > message" under cPanel>>Email>>Default Address. We've setup "Forward
 > to Email Address" to
 > catchall at mydomain.com<mailto:catchall at mydomain.com>.  As cPanel
 > support explained, this indicates that all mail that is delivered,
 > but does not have an address (like mailman-bounces@) on this server
 > will be delivered to the default account - this can potentially
 > pose the risk of the email account receiving email for accounts
 > that do not exist, something commonly seen when a domain is being
 > spoofed.  Otherwise, it will be rejected with "No such user here".
 > ==========================================

 > I?m confused by the wording of the above paragraph from the
 > webhost, but maybe they mean that the server is configured to not
 > allow emails to be sent out *from* addresses which can?t receive
 > emails, and this is to help reduce outbound spam.

The reference to "SMTP" could mean "outbound," but the context doesn't
support that.  Everything else clearly indicates "inbound".

 > So, I guess when Mailman tries to send a subscribe/unsubscribe
 > notification email out from
 > mailman-bounces at mydomain.com<mailto:mailman-bounces at mydomain.com>
 > to the list owner address, maybe the server blocks it, since that
 > mailman-bounces at mydomain.com<mailto:mailman-bounces at mydomain.com>
 > address doesn?t exist, as such.

It is possible for the remote site to ask if an address exists during
your outgoing SMTP session (the tech of this is complex, so I'm not
going into detail), and many sites will refuse to accept mail with a
non-existent envelope sender.  My guess is that it's more likely that
remote sites were discarding the mail for that reason.  Your host
would be more able to tell you about that.

 > I tested this theory using a less overkill approach, by not using
 > the "catchall" default address method, but just creating a
 > forwarder (alias) for the address
 > mailman-bounces at mydomain.com<mailto:mailman-bounces at mydomain.com>

I don't understand why you don't have this address in the first place.
Mailman uses this address as envelope sender (and sometimes From) in
order to accept failed delivery notifications (aka "bounces"), and so
automatically disable delivery from Mailman to mailboxes disabled on
the subscribed host (including non-existent addresses).  This should
be configured in the MTA (mail server) along with all of the other
Mailman-specific addresses.

It may have something to do with an upgrade or reconfiguration at the
host that went wrong somehow.

 > which redirects its mail to one of my mailboxes (even to my
 > catchall mailbox), and that seemed to work!  I don't think this is
 > to provide an address which will receive emails resulting from
 > subscribes/unsubscribes (since I don't think that process sends
 > anything *to* the mailman-bounces at ... address), but just to satisfy
 > the anti-spam requirements of the system that every sending address
 > should be able to receive email, not just bounce it.

This is why the subscription process wasn't working, except for the
fact that relying on your host's description, it seems very possible
that the filtering of non-existent "From" or envelope addresses takes
place on the receiving system.



From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Sep 18 10:02:34 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:02:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
In-Reply-To: <22975.33210.35652.332865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <KL1PR06MB104595D4912564F4943F9944A96C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <KL1PR06MB1045BC9A1B8649FA07BF68A7A9620@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <22975.33210.35652.332865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <81c86029-b5b5-225d-db0b-0042c445cb13@msapiro.net>

On 9/18/17 1:20 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Terry . writes:
> 
>  > Sorry for the delay in responding, and thanks for your generous
>  > offer of working with my webhost and/or cPanel to solve this.  I
>  > passed that offer to my webhost, but it seems they have been able
>  > to sort it out with cPanel themselves.
> 
>  > I then tested lists in all 7 domains, and they all sent
>  > subscribe/unsubscribe emails to me perfectly.  I then asked Jim
>  > Dory (who has participated in this thread) to setup a default
>  > address for his list, and it worked for him, too.
> 
> Great!!


Yes. The bottom line here seems to be that things are now working as
they should be, so the issue seems to be solved.


> 
>  > ==========================================
>  > The issue with @mydomain.com was caused due to the setting "Discard
>  > the email while your server processes it at SMTP time with an error
>  > message" under cPanel>>Email>>Default Address. We've setup "Forward
>  > to Email Address" to
>  > catchall at mydomain.com<mailto:catchall at mydomain.com>.  As cPanel
>  > support explained, this indicates that all mail that is delivered,
>  > but does not have an address (like mailman-bounces@) on this server
>  > will be delivered to the default account - this can potentially
>  > pose the risk of the email account receiving email for accounts
>  > that do not exist, something commonly seen when a domain is being
>  > spoofed.  Otherwise, it will be rejected with "No such user here".
>  > ==========================================
> 
>  > I?m confused by the wording of the above paragraph from the
>  > webhost, but maybe they mean that the server is configured to not
>  > allow emails to be sent out *from* addresses which can?t receive
>  > emails, and this is to help reduce outbound spam.


I'm confused too. Perhaps something got lost or confused in transmission
from cPanel via the web host, or perhaps this is some unusual cPanel
thing that we don't understand. We may never understand "why" this fix
works, but as long as it does work, we can be happy about that.


...
> 
>  > So, I guess when Mailman tries to send a subscribe/unsubscribe
>  > notification email out from
>  > mailman-bounces at mydomain.com<mailto:mailman-bounces at mydomain.com>
>  > to the list owner address, maybe the server blocks it, since that
>  > mailman-bounces at mydomain.com<mailto:mailman-bounces at mydomain.com>
>  > address doesn?t exist, as such.


There is a 'mailman' list and as such, the mailman-bounces address
should be deliverable, but cPanel does things in a strange way. Most
lists are associated with a domain - perhaps one of several domains
hosted on the server. Exim is configured to know this, so that mail to
yourlist at yourdomain actually gets delivered to a list named
yourlist_yourdomain and mail to otherlist at otherdomain is delivered to a
list named otherlist_otherdomain. This is how cPanel handles multiple
domains without requiring listnames to be globally unique.

However, the 'mailman' list is different. It's internal name doesn't
have a '_domain' suffix so the list 'mailman' exists, but
'mailman_yourdomain' does not.

I suspect cPanel may have had some Exim magic to deal with this that got
lost or broken in a cPanel update. That might explain things.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From luscheina at yahoo.de  Tue Sep 19 13:37:49 2017
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 19:37:49 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List adds information to sender's name
Message-ID: <59C155ED.9070104@yahoo.de>

Hi

On a list using Mailman 2.1.23 (on cpanel 66.0.23) I have noticed the
following effects:

Most messages appear with the author's name and in the "From:"-field in
the same form as the author has set up in his mail application. However,
some show additional information like "Realname via Listname".

I have analyzed some of those messages, and it appears that this only
happens when the author puts his own address in the "Cc:"-field (= sends
a copy to himself).  Then I have tried to double-check the behaviour and
put my own address in a message to the list.

Surprisingly, the message was delivered directly to me, but the list
never sent it to me so I could not check whether "...via listname" was
also appended to my "From:"-address. I have seen the message in the
list's archive; there it is without "...via listname".

Is this normal behaviour? Can the list be configured to not append the
"...via listname"  information to these messages? And why do I not
receive my message via the list but only directly?

Thank you for all ideas,
Christian

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe f?r Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

.

From heller at deepsoft.com  Tue Sep 19 15:37:50 2017
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:37:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List adds information to sender's name
In-Reply-To: <59C155ED.9070104@yahoo.de>
References: <59C155ED.9070104@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <20170919193750.94F0573236F@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

At Tue, 19 Sep 2017 19:37:49 +0200 luscheina at yahoo.de wrote:

> 
> Hi
> 
> On a list using Mailman 2.1.23 (on cpanel 66.0.23) I have noticed the
> following effects:
> 
> Most messages appear with the author's name and in the "From:"-field in
> the same form as the author has set up in his mail application. However,
> some show additional information like "Realname via Listname".
> 
> I have analyzed some of those messages, and it appears that this only
> happens when the author puts his own address in the "Cc:"-field (=3D sends
> a copy to himself).  Then I have tried to double-check the behaviour and
> put my own address in a message to the list.
> 
> Surprisingly, the message was delivered directly to me, but the list
> never sent it to me so I could not check whether "...via listname" was
> also appended to my "From:"-address. I have seen the message in the
> list's archive; there it is without "...via listname".
> 
> Is this normal behaviour? Can the list be configured to not append the
> "...via listname"  information to these messages? And why do I not
> receive my message via the list but only directly?

This latter is controled by a subscriber option (last option):

"Avoid duplicate copies of messages?
Avoid duplicate copies of messages?

When you are listed explicitly in the To: or Cc: headers of a list message, 
you can opt to not receive another copy from the mailing list. Select Yes to 
avoid receiving copies from the mailing list; select No to receive copies.

If the list has member personalized messages enabled, and you elect to receive 
copies, every copy will have a X-Mailman-Copy: yes header added to it. "

Default for this option is "Yes".

The From: munging is part of the DMARC handling (General Admin Options):

"Replace the sender with the list address to conform with policies like ADSP 
and DMARC. It replaces the poster's address in the From: header with the list 
address and adds the poster to the Reply-To: header, but the anonymous_list 
and Reply-To: header munging settings below take priority. If setting this to 
Yes, it is advised to set the MTA to DKIM sign all emails.
If this is set to Wrap Message, just wrap the message in an outer message 
From: the list with Content-Type: message/rfc822.
(Edit from_is_list)"

You are seeing the "Mung From" option behaviour.

> 
> Thank you for all ideas,
> Christian
> 
> -- =
> 
> Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      =
> 
> Hilfe f=FCr Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org
> 
> .
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%4=
> 0deepsoft.com
> 
>                                                                                             

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                

From luscheina at yahoo.de  Tue Sep 19 16:28:01 2017
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 22:28:01 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List adds information to sender's name
In-Reply-To: <20170919215656561442.f1e1ff8d@yahoo.de>
References: <59C155ED.9070104@yahoo.de>
 <20170919193750.94F0573236F@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
 <20170919215656561442.f1e1ff8d@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <20170919222801603497.cbd2c672@yahoo.de>

Hello Christian F Buser. On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 21:56:56 +0200, you wrote:

>> You are seeing the "Mung From" option behaviour.
> 
> But why does this not happen with all list messages; only with a part 
> of them? I thought it was coming from the fact that the authors cc'ed 
> themselves - but a test message where I put my own address in cc did 
> not "munge" the sender's address...

And, additionally: why does my original question have "via Mailman-Users" appended, while my reply (using the same mail app and the same settings) does not? 

And why, when I reply to a message on this list, is the reply only going to the author of the message and not to the list? Of course, this may be a setting of the Mailman-Users list, but I do not understand why anyone should do it this way...

Christian 

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

.

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Sep 19 22:49:52 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 19:49:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List adds information to sender's name
In-Reply-To: <20170919222801603497.cbd2c672@yahoo.de>
References: <59C155ED.9070104@yahoo.de>
 <20170919193750.94F0573236F@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
 <20170919215656561442.f1e1ff8d@yahoo.de>
 <20170919222801603497.cbd2c672@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <30a03174-54ec-8a57-70e3-d006defcbdbd@msapiro.net>

On 09/19/2017 01:28 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> And, additionally: why does my original question have "via Mailman-Users" appended, while my reply (using the same mail app and the same settings) does not? 


What reply? I see only
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2017-September/082467.html>
and
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2017-September/082469.html>
(the message containing the above) in the list archives.

This occurs because you are posting From: the yahoo.de domain and
yahoo.de publishes a DMARC policy of 'reject' and this list has
dmarc_moderation_action = Mung From. (See
<https://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC> and perhaps
<https://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>)


> And why, when I reply to a message on this list, is the reply only going to the author of the message and not to the list? Of course, this may be a setting of the Mailman-Users list, but I do not understand why anyone should do it this way...


It is the way this list is set. If your MUA doesn't offer a 'reply list'
action, use 'reply all'. For some of the reasoning behind this, see the
papers linked from <http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/listreplyto.html>,
and please don't start yet another thread on this religious war.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Sep 19 22:59:42 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 19:59:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List adds information to sender's name
In-Reply-To: <59C155ED.9070104@yahoo.de>
References: <59C155ED.9070104@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <ab23cfd5-71c1-af8b-49fa-bbbb8b1d631e@msapiro.net>

On 09/19/2017 10:37 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Surprisingly, the message was delivered directly to me, but the list
> never sent it to me so I could not check whether "...via listname" was
> also appended to my "From:"-address. I have seen the message in the
> list's archive; there it is without "...via listname".


From: header munging is not done in archives or digests because it isn't
necessary there. (Also see
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2017-September/082470.html>)


> Is this normal behaviour? Can the list be configured to not append the
> "...via listname"  information to these messages?


In short, it can but we won't because it would cause your posts to be
rejected by every recipient whose ISP honors DMARC.


> And why do I not
> receive my message via the list but only directly?


Because your list option "Avoid duplicate copies of messages?" for this
list is set to Yes (the default). If you don't like that, go
to<https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users>, log in and
change it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From luscheina at yahoo.de  Wed Sep 20 12:32:28 2017
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 18:32:28 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List adds information to sender's name
In-Reply-To: <20170919193750.94F0573236F@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
References: <59C155ED.9070104@yahoo.de>
 <20170919193750.94F0573236F@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20170920183228016969.f2be2a52@yahoo.de>

Hello Robert Heller. On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:37:50 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

> The From: munging is part of the DMARC handling (General Admin Options):
> 
> "Replace the sender with the list address to conform with policies 
> like ADSP 
> and DMARC. It replaces the poster's address in the From: header with 
> the list 
> address and adds the poster to the Reply-To: header, but the anonymous_list 
> and Reply-To: header munging settings below take priority. If setting 
> this to 
> Yes, it is advised to set the MTA to DKIM sign all emails.
> If this is set to Wrap Message, just wrap the message in an outer message 
> From: the list with Content-Type: message/rfc822.
> (Edit from_is_list)"
> 
> You are seeing the "Mung From" option behaviour.

Strange. Settings for the list are: 

Replace the From: header address with the list's posting address to mitigate issues stemming from the original From: domain's DMARC or similar policies.
NO

Hide the sender of a message, replacing it with the list address (Removes From, Sender and Reply-To fields) 
NO

Should any existing Reply-To: header found in the original message be stripped? If so, this will be done regardless of whether an explict Reply-To: header is added by Mailman or not. 
YES

Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly recommended for most mailing lists. 
THIS LIST

Explicit Reply-To: header. 
(FIELD IS EMPTY)

To my understanding, this should not cause any of the effects described in my previous message. Every list subscriber should see who wrote a message (so the From should not be replaced by the list address) and we want to keep the discussions on the list (it is a discussion list for technical issues with the MacOS operating system), so we do not select "reply to poster".

What happens, if I set the list not to add/change the Reply-To header, and still set the list address in the Explicit Reply-To header field? I guess Mailman will just ignore that field - or not? 

If there are better settings to accomplish the goals, this would be very helpful. 

Thank you, Christian   

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

.

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Sep 20 15:21:57 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:21:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List adds information to sender's name
In-Reply-To: <20170920183228016969.f2be2a52@yahoo.de>
References: <59C155ED.9070104@yahoo.de>
 <20170919193750.94F0573236F@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
 <20170920183228016969.f2be2a52@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <a603cd68-49ce-7178-523b-512ec5a3a8f4@msapiro.net>

On 09/20/2017 09:32 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:37:50 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
>> You are seeing the "Mung From" option behaviour.
> 
> Strange. Settings for the list are: 
> 
> Replace the From: header address with the list's posting address to mitigate issues stemming from the original From: domain's DMARC or similar policies.
> NO


This is the from_is_list setting which controls DMARC mitigations
applied to ALL messages.

You also need to look at Privacy options... -> Sender filters settings
dmarc_moderation_action and dmarc_quarantine_moderation_action which
control the mitigations applied to messages From: domains that publish
DMARC policies of reject and quarantine.


> What happens, if I set the list not to add/change the Reply-To header, and still set the list address in the Explicit Reply-To header field? I guess Mailman will just ignore that field - or not? 


If reply_goes_to_list is Explicit address, mailman will add
reply_to_address to Reply-To: and if that's the list posting address,
it's no different from setting reply_goes_to_list to This list.

If reply_goes_to_list is Poster, Mailman won't add anything to Reply-To:
for this reason, but it will still honor first_strip_reply_to and add
the original From: to Reply-To: if the From: is munged.


> If there are better settings to accomplish the goals, this would be very helpful. 


You need to do something to mitigate DMARC or all posts to the list
From: domains that publish DMARC p=reject will be bounced by many
recipients ISPs. For advice on what you can do, see
<https://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From james at dorydesign.com  Wed Sep 20 15:59:37 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:59:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>

Apparently our host provider performs spam tests only on outgoing, rather
than incoming - since my spamassassin blacklists don't have any effect.

So I've discovered the filters offered in Mailman after being completely
buried by spammers trying to post to our subscriber only list.

I've started putting these in Sender Filters:

^[^@]+ at bcira\.com$
^[^@]+ at airablo\.com$
^[^@]+ at bfklaw\.com$
^[^@]+ at bettella\.com$
^[^@]+ at areallycool\.com$
^[^@]+ at aristo-tec\.com$
^[^@]+ at benallgood\.com$
^[^@]+ at al-meshkah\.com$
^[^@]+ at atoccs\.stream$
^[^@]+ at authors\.com$
^[^@]+ at aulson\.com$
^[^@]+ at atmyx\.bid$
^[^@]+ at airtecperforms\.com$

but what is the syntax for blocking domains ending in
.loan
.stream
.trade

etc, other than .com.

I've been reading up on python expressions but at first reading it is a bit
overwhelming - hoping for a simple example.

I've also started adding in words under Spam filters such as:

^Subject: .*Phentermine
^Subject: .*F\*buddy
^Subject: .*H00kup
^Subject: .*InstaF\*ck
^Subject: .*Instacheat

Wondering if anyone would care to share their lists of filters - or a good
resource?

thanks, Jim

From phils at caerllewys.net  Wed Sep 20 16:33:17 2017
From: phils at caerllewys.net (Phil Stracchino)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 16:33:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d8fb0897-93f2-d47d-801f-e541cfd3883a@caerllewys.net>

On 09/20/17 15:59, Jim Dory wrote:
> Apparently our host provider performs spam tests only on outgoing, rather
> than incoming - since my spamassassin blacklists don't have any effect.
> 
> So I've discovered the filters offered in Mailman after being completely
> buried by spammers trying to post to our subscriber only list.


You might try deploying rspamd.


-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  phils at caerllewys.net
  phil at co.ordinate.org
  Landline: +1.603.293.8485
  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958

From heller at deepsoft.com  Wed Sep 20 17:29:49 2017
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 17:29:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170920212949.213347321A2@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

At Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:59:37 -0800 Jim Dory <james at dorydesign.com> wrote:

> 
> Apparently our host provider performs spam tests only on outgoing, rather
> than incoming - since my spamassassin blacklists don't have any effect.
> 
> So I've discovered the filters offered in Mailman after being completely
> buried by spammers trying to post to our subscriber only list.
> 
> I've started putting these in Sender Filters:
> 
> ^[^@]+ at bcira\.com$
> ^[^@]+ at airablo\.com$
> ^[^@]+ at bfklaw\.com$
> ^[^@]+ at bettella\.com$
> ^[^@]+ at areallycool\.com$
> ^[^@]+ at aristo-tec\.com$
> ^[^@]+ at benallgood\.com$
> ^[^@]+ at al-meshkah\.com$
> ^[^@]+ at atoccs\.stream$
> ^[^@]+ at authors\.com$
> ^[^@]+ at aulson\.com$
> ^[^@]+ at atmyx\.bid$
> ^[^@]+ at airtecperforms\.com$
> 
> but what is the syntax for blocking domains ending in
> .loan
> .stream
> .trade

^[^@]+ at .+\.loan$
^[^@]+ at .+\.stream$
^[^@]+ at .+\.trade$
 
etc.

Just replace the "host" part with .+ (== 1 or more of any character) and 
replace com with loan, stream, trade, etc.  Thus, for example:

^[^@]+ at .+\.loan$

matches any of these:

someidiot at getaloan.loan
freemoney at instantloan.loan
brreakyourlegs at loanshark.loan

(and many more).

> 
> etc, other than .com.
> 
> I've been reading up on python expressions but at first reading it is a bit
> overwhelming - hoping for a simple example.
> 
> I've also started adding in words under Spam filters such as:
> 
> ^Subject: .*Phentermine
> ^Subject: .*F\*buddy
> ^Subject: .*H00kup
> ^Subject: .*InstaF\*ck
> ^Subject: .*Instacheat
> 
> Wondering if anyone would care to share their lists of filters - or a good
> resource?
> 
> thanks, Jim
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>                                                            

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                     

From james at dorydesign.com  Wed Sep 20 18:27:37 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 14:27:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <20170920212949.213347321A2@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170920212949.213347321A2@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy1FLT8y14cwPr=v5L2itzk+ckRbz6ccfG4J4g-pFOGDog@mail.gmail.com>

Great, thanks!

This should help a lot,

regards, Jim

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 1:29 PM, Robert Heller <heller at deepsoft.com> wrote:

> At Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:59:37 -0800 Jim Dory <james at dorydesign.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Apparently our host provider performs spam tests only on outgoing, rather
> > than incoming - since my spamassassin blacklists don't have any effect.
> >
> > So I've discovered the filters offered in Mailman after being completely
> > buried by spammers trying to post to our subscriber only list.
> >
> > I've started putting these in Sender Filters:
> >
> > ^[^@]+ at bcira\.com$
> > ^[^@]+ at airablo\.com$
> > ^[^@]+ at bfklaw\.com$
> > ^[^@]+ at bettella\.com$
> > ^[^@]+ at areallycool\.com$
> > ^[^@]+ at aristo-tec\.com$
> > ^[^@]+ at benallgood\.com$
> > ^[^@]+ at al-meshkah\.com$
> > ^[^@]+ at atoccs\.stream$
> > ^[^@]+ at authors\.com$
> > ^[^@]+ at aulson\.com$
> > ^[^@]+ at atmyx\.bid$
> > ^[^@]+ at airtecperforms\.com$
> >
> > but what is the syntax for blocking domains ending in
> > .loan
> > .stream
> > .trade
>
> ^[^@]+ at .+\.loan$
> ^[^@]+ at .+\.stream$
> ^[^@]+ at .+\.trade$
>
> etc.
>
> Just replace the "host" part with .+ (== 1 or more of any character) and
> replace com with loan, stream, trade, etc.  Thus, for example:
>
> ^[^@]+ at .+\.loan$
>
> matches any of these:
>
> someidiot at getaloan.loan
> freemoney at instantloan.loan
> brreakyourlegs at loanshark.loan
>
> (and many more).
>
> >
> > etc, other than .com.
> >
> > I've been reading up on python expressions but at first reading it is a
> bit
> > overwhelming - hoping for a simple example.
> >
> > I've also started adding in words under Spam filters such as:
> >
> > ^Subject: .*Phentermine
> > ^Subject: .*F\*buddy
> > ^Subject: .*H00kup
> > ^Subject: .*InstaF\*ck
> > ^Subject: .*Instacheat
> >
> > Wondering if anyone would care to share their lists of filters - or a
> good
> > resource?
> >
> > thanks, Jim
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> heller%40deepsoft.com
> >
> >
>
> --
> Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
> Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
> http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
> heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
>
>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Sep 21 15:37:51 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 13:37:51 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DKIM / DMARC woes...
Message-ID: <44c9172b-6987-c6b3-cbf3-407916280e5a@tnetconsulting.net>

Hello,

Does setting from_is_list and / or dmarc_moderation_action to munge 
cause Mailman to do anything with existing DKIM-Signature headers?  Will 
they be removed or left there?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Sep 21 17:23:11 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 14:23:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DKIM / DMARC woes...
In-Reply-To: <44c9172b-6987-c6b3-cbf3-407916280e5a@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <44c9172b-6987-c6b3-cbf3-407916280e5a@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <5e952e27-1596-8068-518e-77a3f6bbbb30@msapiro.net>

On 09/21/2017 12:37 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Does setting from_is_list and / or dmarc_moderation_action to munge
> cause Mailman to do anything with existing DKIM-Signature headers?? Will
> they be removed or left there?


The default behavior does nothing to DKIM related headers. This is from
Defaults.py

> # Some list posts and mail to the -owner address may contain DomainKey or
> # DomainKeys Identified Mail (DKIM) signature headers <http://www.dkim.org/>.
> # Various list transformations to the message such as adding a list header or
> # footer or scrubbing attachments or even reply-to munging can break these
> # signatures.  It is generally felt that these signatures have value, even if
> # broken and even if the outgoing message is resigned.  However, some sites
> # may wish to remove these headers.  Possible values and meanings are:
> # No, 0, False -> do not remove headers.
> # Yes, 1, True -> remove headers only if we are munging the from header due
> #                 to from_is_list or dmarc_moderation_action.
> # 2 -> always remove headers.
> # 3 -> always remove, rename and preserve original DKIM headers.
> REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = No

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Sep 21 17:43:35 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:43:35 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DKIM / DMARC woes...
In-Reply-To: <5e952e27-1596-8068-518e-77a3f6bbbb30@msapiro.net>
References: <44c9172b-6987-c6b3-cbf3-407916280e5a@tnetconsulting.net>
 <5e952e27-1596-8068-518e-77a3f6bbbb30@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <e140b474-2f41-87ca-107b-3d635fec4530@tnetconsulting.net>

Thank you for the reply Mark.

On 09/21/2017 03:23 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> The default behavior does nothing to DKIM related headers. This is from
> Defaults.py

Would I be correct in assuming that REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS needs to be set 
to 2 or 3 to remove the DKIM headers if no from header munging is 
happening?  (from_is_list or dmarc_moderation_action both at their 
default value.)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Sep 21 17:47:53 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 14:47:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DKIM / DMARC woes...
In-Reply-To: <e140b474-2f41-87ca-107b-3d635fec4530@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <44c9172b-6987-c6b3-cbf3-407916280e5a@tnetconsulting.net>
 <5e952e27-1596-8068-518e-77a3f6bbbb30@msapiro.net>
 <e140b474-2f41-87ca-107b-3d635fec4530@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <f702247e-16ff-f19d-830f-ee9077b17c8c@msapiro.net>

On 09/21/2017 02:43 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Would I be correct in assuming that REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS needs to be set
> to 2 or 3 to remove the DKIM headers if no from header munging is
> happening?? (from_is_list or dmarc_moderation_action both at their
> default value.)


Yes, that is correct.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From heller at deepsoft.com  Fri Sep 22 16:16:43 2017
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 16:16:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Correct Mailman setup (was: List adds
 information to sender's name)
In-Reply-To: <59C532F0.6030301@yahoo.de>
References: <59C532F0.6030301@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <20170922201643.6D44B7321F2@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

For some reason, you sent this to just me (Robert Heller 
<heller at deepsoft.com>).  I am replying and including the list 
(mailman-users at python.org) on the CC.

At Fri, 22 Sep 2017 17:57:36 +0200 luscheina at yahoo.de wrote:

> 
> 
> Hi all
> 
> I have now read through the web pages Mark Sapiro proposed on Wednesday
> - and I am more confused than before about all this. After contacting
> our hoster (who told me that we are the only one of his clients who uses
> Mailman and that he can't help me here), I ask the collective of all
> knowledgeable people to help me configure Mailman (v 2.1.23 on cPanel)
> so that there are the least possible problems.
> 
> There are in total 5 lists:
> 
> 3 of them are discussion lists for various subjects. All members are
> allowed to reply to all messages, and all these replies should go to the
> list / distributed to all members.
> 
> 2 of them are announcement lists - members should normally not be
> allowed to post anything; therefore all are set to "moderated". 
> 
> All lists have members who use various mail domains, so I cannot be sure
> about any odd behaviour of their mail servers
> 
> All lists are more or less working, but every now and then some people
> complain about something. The most annoying thing is that messages are
> processed but then queued for up to one hour before they go out. The
> mail system is on the same virtual server, and the provider has no idea
> what to do. Otherwise the mail server does not ause problems, any
> message submitted normally (not via Mailman) goes out nearly instantly. 
> I would appreciate if a knowledgeable person could guide me through the
> proper setup of these lists.
> 
> Thanks, Christian

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                    

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Sep 22 16:50:50 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 13:50:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Correct Mailman setup
In-Reply-To: <20170922201643.6D44B7321F2@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
References: <59C532F0.6030301@yahoo.de>
 <20170922201643.6D44B7321F2@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <02132d4a-5261-48cb-7efa-c9d543db7aad@msapiro.net>

At Fri, 22 Sep 2017 17:57:36 +0200 luscheina at yahoo.de wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I have now read through the web pages Mark Sapiro proposed on Wednesday
>> - and I am more confused than before about all this. After contacting
>> our hoster (who told me that we are the only one of his clients who uses
>> Mailman and that he can't help me here), I ask the collective of all
>> knowledgeable people to help me configure Mailman (v 2.1.23 on cPanel)
>> so that there are the least possible problems.
>>
>> There are in total 5 lists:
>>
>> 3 of them are discussion lists for various subjects. All members are
>> allowed to reply to all messages, and all these replies should go to the
>> list / distributed to all members.
>>
>> 2 of them are announcement lists - members should normally not be
>> allowed to post anything; therefore all are set to "moderated". 
>>
>> All lists have members who use various mail domains, so I cannot be sure
>> about any odd behaviour of their mail servers
>>
>> All lists are more or less working


So far, I don't see a problem. For a guide to setting up announcement
lists see <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030685>.


>>, but every now and then some people
>> complain about something. The most annoying thing is that messages are
>> processed but then queued for up to one hour before they go out. The
>> mail system is on the same virtual server, and the provider has no idea
>> what to do. Otherwise the mail server does not ause problems, any
>> message submitted normally (not via Mailman) goes out nearly instantly. 
>> I would appreciate if a knowledgeable person could guide me through the
>> proper setup of these lists.


You are not going to be able to find the necessary information to
diagnose this issue which requires access to Mailman's logs and the Mail
Server logs which are normally not available to customers of a hosted
cPanel installation.

What I can tell you is there is nothing in normal list configuration
that would cause delays in outgoing mail. The most likely cause of these
delays is Mailman's 'out' queue being backlogged. There are multiple
posts about this in this list's archives including
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2016-July/081121.html>.
There is also a FAQ at <https://wiki.list.org/x/17892002>.

One thing you can check is if posts are archived almost immediately even
though they aren't sent out for some time. This indicates a possibly
backlogged 'out' queue or possibly other delays in outgoing mail. If the
posts are not archived until they are ultimately sent out, that would
indicate the delay is in incoming mail.

It is also possible the outgoing mail server is throttling mail, i.e.
limiting the number of messages sent per hour or some such.

The bottom line is if the hosting service won't help you with this,
you're stuck. You might find
<https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20and%20CPanel> of some interest.

If there are other issues/complaints, please describe both the current
and desired behaviors, and perhaps we can offer more advice.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From james at dorydesign.com  Fri Sep 22 22:19:08 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 18:19:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy3xKBw5W1GGME1KcQT46QnB8mgSa-2bO=Z9a0zxLX5CDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3xKBw5W1GGME1KcQT46QnB8mgSa-2bO=Z9a0zxLX5CDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy3u=S0Fki0NVqZczqD2SApeDO4eS2BuyH7564VCFUvV3Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'm trying to ask a question about spam filters, using an example of spam
I'm getting, but I'm getting this error:

The response was:

554 permanent error Contact your postmaster/admin for assistance. Please
provide the following information in your problem report: time (Sep 22
22:16:42) and client (2607:f8b0:400e:c05::231).


Anyway around this?   /jim

From james at dorydesign.com  Fri Sep 22 22:22:01 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 18:22:01 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy3u=S0Fki0NVqZczqD2SApeDO4eS2BuyH7564VCFUvV3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3xKBw5W1GGME1KcQT46QnB8mgSa-2bO=Z9a0zxLX5CDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKhfoy3u=S0Fki0NVqZczqD2SApeDO4eS2BuyH7564VCFUvV3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy00YdZaDrgzppdHuVbk9A=pjOtT1jSYMa8TWNG2rOxh-g@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe this is how to do it:

My spam filter is not working. I have this syntax: ^Subject: .*Example

And mail with this subject is still getting through:
Subject: Desperate for a Example

What would be correct way to catch messages with "Example"?

thanks, jim

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 6:19 PM, Jim Dory <james at dorydesign.com> wrote:

>
> I'm trying to ask a question about spam filters, using an example of spam
> I'm getting, but I'm getting this error:
>
> The response was:
>
> 554 permanent error Contact your postmaster/admin for assistance. Please
> provide the following information in your problem report: time (Sep 22
> 22:16:42) and client (2607:f8b0:400e:c05::231).
>
>
> Anyway around this?   /jim
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Sep 22 22:31:41 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 19:31:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy3u=S0Fki0NVqZczqD2SApeDO4eS2BuyH7564VCFUvV3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3xKBw5W1GGME1KcQT46QnB8mgSa-2bO=Z9a0zxLX5CDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKhfoy3u=S0Fki0NVqZczqD2SApeDO4eS2BuyH7564VCFUvV3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b07758c5-09de-cae9-9d88-f5af8d082893@msapiro.net>

On 09/22/2017 07:19 PM, Jim Dory wrote:
> I'm trying to ask a question about spam filters, using an example of spam
> I'm getting, but I'm getting this error:
> 
> The response was:
> 
> 554 permanent error Contact your postmaster/admin for assistance. Please
> provide the following information in your problem report: time (Sep 22
> 22:16:42) and client (2607:f8b0:400e:c05::231).

Your email client is not giving you the reject reason which from
mail.python.org's log is

Sep 22 22:16:42 mail postfix/smtpd[18989]: NOQUEUE: reject_warning: RCPT
from mail-pg0-x231.google.com[2607:f8b0:400e:c05::231]: 554 5.7.1
<mailman-users at python.org>: Recipient address rejected: You must be a
member to send to this address.; from=<jim.dory at gmail.com>
to=<mailman-users at python.org> proto=ESMTP helo=<mail-pg0-x231.google.com>


I.e. post from your subscribed address which is james at dorydesign.com,
not jim.dory at gmail.com

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Sep 22 22:53:42 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 19:53:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy00YdZaDrgzppdHuVbk9A=pjOtT1jSYMa8TWNG2rOxh-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3xKBw5W1GGME1KcQT46QnB8mgSa-2bO=Z9a0zxLX5CDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKhfoy3u=S0Fki0NVqZczqD2SApeDO4eS2BuyH7564VCFUvV3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKhfoy00YdZaDrgzppdHuVbk9A=pjOtT1jSYMa8TWNG2rOxh-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6adf2bca-48c8-1906-36c9-1bbb5b3b4b40@msapiro.net>

On 09/22/2017 07:22 PM, Jim Dory wrote:
> Maybe this is how to do it:
> 
> My spam filter is not working. I have this syntax: ^Subject: .*Example


And where are you putting this?

If you have that in bounce_matching_headers, you don't want the ^. The
syntax there is the header followed by a regexp to match. E.g.

subject: .*example

or even (I think)

subject: ^.*example

Both the header and regexp are case insensitive.

If it's in header_filter_rules

^Subject: .*Example

should work (and it too is case insensitive).


> And mail with this subject is still getting through:
> Subject: Desperate for a Example


If the above doesn't explain it, it's possible the header is rfc 2047
encoded as in

Subject: =?utf-8?b?RGVzcGVyYXRlIGZvciBhIEV4YW1wbGUK?=

which decodes to

Subject: Desperate for a Example

but headers should be rfc 2047 decoded for header_filter_rules but not
for bounce_matching headers.

Also note that bounce_matching_headers is called "Legacy anti-spam
filters" for a reason.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tlhackque at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 03:29:09 2017
From: tlhackque at yahoo.com (tlhackque)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 03:29:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Correct Mailman setup
In-Reply-To: <02132d4a-5261-48cb-7efa-c9d543db7aad@msapiro.net>
References: <59C532F0.6030301@yahoo.de>
 <20170922201643.6D44B7321F2@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
 <02132d4a-5261-48cb-7efa-c9d543db7aad@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <2084b688-b05d-29f7-8451-6b0e38a0ba67@yahoo.com>

On 22-Sep-17 16:50, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> At Fri, 22 Sep 2017 17:57:36 +0200 luscheina at yahoo.de wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all
>>> [Snip]
>>> , but every now and then some people
>>> complain about something. The most annoying thing is that messages are
>>> processed but then queued for up to one hour before they go out. The
>>> mail system is on the same virtual server, and the provider has no idea
>>> what to do. Otherwise the mail server does not ause problems, any
>>> message submitted normally (not via Mailman) goes out nearly instantly. 
>>> I would appreciate if a knowledgeable person could guide me through the
>>> proper setup of these lists.
> [Snip]
>
> What I can tell you is there is nothing in normal list configuration
> that would cause delays in outgoing mail. The most likely cause of these
> delays is Mailman's 'out' queue being backlogged. There are multiple
> posts about this in this list's archives including
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2016-July/081121.html>.
> There is also a FAQ at <https://wiki.list.org/x/17892002>.
>
> One thing you can check is if posts are archived almost immediately even
> though they aren't sent out for some time. This indicates a possibly
> backlogged 'out' queue or possibly other delays in outgoing mail. If the
> posts are not archived until they are ultimately sent out, that would
> indicate the delay is in incoming mail.

> It is also possible the outgoing mail server is throttling mail, i.e.
> limiting the number of messages sent per hour or some such.
Another common cause is that the RECEIVER is using 'greylisting'.? This
is an anti-spam
technique that some believe is effective.? The receiver sends a
"temporary failure"
when e-mail is received from an unknown or "suspicious" source.? If the
sender retries
in a "reasonable" window, it goes through.? Typically a delay of 15-30
minutes but not
more than a few hours works.? The theory is that spammers won't bother
to retry.
Usually subsequent e-mails from the same source go through without delay
- for a while.

Also, MTAs have timeouts - a common configuration is for the sending MTA
to attempt
sending with a short timeout for connect/greeting/helo response.? If
this times out,
the message is queued for a later attempt with longer timeouts.? The
reasons are that
some RECEIVERs intentionally delay responses to SMTP commands in the
belief that
spammers won't wait (or retry).? The sending MTAs with dual timeouts
don't want
these receivers to slow delivery to "normal" destinations.

If either of these is the case, the sending MTA may be running its queue
hourly.
Running it every 30 minutes may help.? Contacting the receivers to
whitelist your
sending IP may help.?

And there are various e-mail reputation services that will whitelist (or
blacklist)
senders.? Whitelisted senders may bypass greylisting.

All these are under the control of the operator of your sending MTA;
they happen
after Mailman has queued the mail.

For more on greylisting, see https://www.greylisting.org/ (or just do a
web search
on e-mail greylisting.
> The bottom line is if the hosting service won't help you with this,
> you're stuck. 
Unless you find someone willing to let you use a better-configured outgoing
mail server, or you run your own (which is not for the faint-hearted).

> You might find
> <https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20and%20CPanel> of some interest.
>
> If there are other issues/complaints, please describe both the current
> and desired behaviors, and perhaps we can offer more advice.
>


From brennan at columbia.edu  Sat Sep 23 11:44:41 2017
From: brennan at columbia.edu (Joseph Brennan)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 11:44:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Correct Mailman setup (was: List adds
 information to sender's name)
In-Reply-To: <20170922201643.6D44B7321F2@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
References: <59C532F0.6030301@yahoo.de>
 <20170922201643.6D44B7321F2@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAMSGcLBbhMA04U=dkO+gNrVYx3P71h9eezY3YTaBYa6S2Y+V_A@mail.gmail.com>

> At Fri, 22 Sep 2017 17:57:36 +0200 luscheina at yahoo.de wrote:

>> All lists are more or less working, but every now and then some people
>> complain about something. The most annoying thing is that messages are
>> processed but then queued for up to one hour before they go out.

I think you mean the message for one user is delayed and the message
for another is not.

This could happen when sending to gmail servers for recipients in more
than one domain. The gmail server will accept for only one domain at a
time and temp fail the other recipients. If your mail transport
re-tries every 30 minutes, you will have some sent at once, some
delayed for 30 minutes, and maybe even some more delayed for multiples
of 30 minutes. Access to the maillog would totally clarify whether
this is the answer, but I take it you can't see that.

You could have Mailman send to 1 recipient per message --which is what
Gmail does!-- but it is so inefficient that it makes me cringe and I
have not chosen to implement that yet on our systems.


-- 
Joseph Brennan
Columbia University


From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Mon Sep 25 06:49:46 2017
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 12:49:46 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recent phishing mails are targeting mailing-lists
 -- and do pass
Message-ID: <20170925104946.n7b26wflkqiwhbxh@charite.de>

Recent phishing mails are targeting mailing-lists -- and do pass.

>From our logs:
Sep 25 12:10:41 2017 (1940) post to rundmail-it from sabishi.meister at charite.de, size=4760, message-id=<486320030245.201792592050 at charite.de>, success

But the headers of the mail that was automatically passed (since
sabishi.meister at charite.de is a member) was:

From: "Sabishi.Meister@" <charite.de events at tryphotels.ae>

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
https://www.charite.de             Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Sep 26 00:31:05 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 21:31:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recent phishing mails are targeting
 mailing-lists -- and do pass
In-Reply-To: <20170925104946.n7b26wflkqiwhbxh@charite.de>
References: <20170925104946.n7b26wflkqiwhbxh@charite.de>
Message-ID: <3742acdb-fb09-069d-1077-9732c24fbd5c@msapiro.net>

On 09/25/2017 03:49 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> Recent phishing mails are targeting mailing-lists -- and do pass.
> 
> From our logs:
> Sep 25 12:10:41 2017 (1940) post to rundmail-it from sabishi.meister at charite.de, size=4760, message-id=<486320030245.201792592050 at charite.de>, success
> 
> But the headers of the mail that was automatically passed (since
> sabishi.meister at charite.de is a member) was:
> 
> From: "Sabishi.Meister@" <charite.de events at tryphotels.ae>


A post is considered to be from a list member if any of the headers in
the Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py SENDER_HEADERS setting contains a member
address. The default setting is

SENDER_HEADERS = ('from', None, 'reply-to', 'sender')

(None means the envelope sender). Assuming you have the default setting,
the sabishi.meister at charite.de address was either the envelope sender or
in Reply-To: or Sender:.

You could set

SENDER_HEADERS = ('from',)

in mm_cfg.py to test only the From: for list membership.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From heller at deepsoft.com  Tue Sep 26 07:58:26 2017
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 07:58:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recent phishing mails are targeting
 mailing-lists -- and do pass
In-Reply-To: <3742acdb-fb09-069d-1077-9732c24fbd5c@msapiro.net>
References: <20170925104946.n7b26wflkqiwhbxh@charite.de> 
 <3742acdb-fb09-069d-1077-9732c24fbd5c@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20170926115827.0B84D7321DA@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

One thing *I* have discovered is that "bogus" messages (eg phishing, etc. 
spam), often have various envlope headers that give them away.  One is a 
"Reveived: " from a mail server with no reverse DNS ('Reveived: from ... 
(unknown [ddd.ddd.ddd.ddd])', so a spam filter rule like this:

"Received: from.*(unknown \[\d+\.\d+\.\d+\.\d+\])"

catches them.  Set this filter to "Hold", since *some* E-Mail 
clients/providers seem to use machines with non routing addresses either 
internally or otherwise (typically AOL over a Satelite Internet connection), 
which you will want to pass though manually.

I also use Spamassassin on my server, so having a rule like:

"X-Spam-Score: \d"

is also helpful at catching spam and phishing mail.


At Mon, 25 Sep 2017 21:31:05 -0700 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> 
> On 09/25/2017 03:49 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> > Recent phishing mails are targeting mailing-lists -- and do pass.
> > 
> > From our logs:
> > Sep 25 12:10:41 2017 (1940) post to rundmail-it from sabishi.meister at charite.de, size=4760, message-id=<486320030245.201792592050 at charite.de>, success
> > 
> > But the headers of the mail that was automatically passed (since
> > sabishi.meister at charite.de is a member) was:
> > 
> > From: "Sabishi.Meister@" <charite.de events at tryphotels.ae>
> 
> 
> A post is considered to be from a list member if any of the headers in
> the Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py SENDER_HEADERS setting contains a member
> address. The default setting is
> 
> SENDER_HEADERS = ('from', None, 'reply-to', 'sender')
> 
> (None means the envelope sender). Assuming you have the default setting,
> the sabishi.meister at charite.de address was either the envelope sender or
> in Reply-To: or Sender:.
> 
> You could set
> 
> SENDER_HEADERS = ('from',)
> 
> in mm_cfg.py to test only the From: for list membership.
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                             

From guest2 at sgeinc.com  Tue Sep 26 09:23:21 2017
From: guest2 at sgeinc.com (Richard Shetron)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:23:21 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recent phishing mails are targeting
 mailing-lists -- and do pass
In-Reply-To: <20170926115827.0B84D7321DA@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
References: <20170925104946.n7b26wflkqiwhbxh@charite.de>
 <3742acdb-fb09-069d-1077-9732c24fbd5c@msapiro.net>
 <20170926115827.0B84D7321DA@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <d5bc614a-116b-b89b-25a8-9286607b4860@sgeinc.com>

Spamassassin produces a numeric rating for for an email based on 
multiple rules.  Legitimate email can easily get a rating of 3 or 4 
based on the way you have it configured.  I've seen double digit ratings 
as well.  If you check for a single digit, you may be filtering 
legitimate emails that have a low score.

On 9/26/2017 7:58 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
[snip]
> 
> I also use Spamassassin on my server, so having a rule like:
> 
> "X-Spam-Score: \d"
> 
> is also helpful at catching spam and phishing mail.
> 
[snip]

From heller at deepsoft.com  Tue Sep 26 09:55:24 2017
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:55:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recent phishing mails are targeting
 mailing-lists -- and do pass
In-Reply-To: <d5bc614a-116b-b89b-25a8-9286607b4860@sgeinc.com>
References: <20170925104946.n7b26wflkqiwhbxh@charite.de> 
 <3742acdb-fb09-069d-1077-9732c24fbd5c@msapiro.net> 
 <20170926115827.0B84D7321DA@sharky3.deepsoft.com> 
 <d5bc614a-116b-b89b-25a8-9286607b4860@sgeinc.com>
Message-ID: <20170926135524.3F3BA7321DA@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

At Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:23:21 -0400 Richard Shetron <guest2 at sgeinc.com> wrote:

> 
> Spamassassin produces a numeric rating for for an email based on 
> multiple rules.  Legitimate email can easily get a rating of 3 or 4 
> based on the way you have it configured.  I've seen double digit ratings 
> as well.  If you check for a single digit, you may be filtering 
> legitimate emails that have a low score.

Spamassassin can be configured to only include the score header if the score
excedes the threshold, so low score messages will be passed. Setting that pass
the filter to "hold", allows the moderator to pass messages that Spamassassin
has issues with (higher score).  I can be worth it to catch the *occassional* 
"false positive", if almost all of the true spam is caught.

*I* have not had any problems.  The 'unknown' filter catches some of the 
people posting from AOL, but mostly is catching spam.  Ditto with the 
Spamassassin filter.  And it is possible to tweek the Spamassassin scoring, if 
there is a *consistent* "false positive" problem.  That is what 
/etc/mail/spamassassin/local.cf is for...

> 
> On 9/26/2017 7:58 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
> [snip]
> > 
> > I also use Spamassassin on my server, so having a rule like:
> > 
> > "X-Spam-Score: \d"
> > 
> > is also helpful at catching spam and phishing mail.
> > 
> [snip]
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>                                                                    

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                     

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Tue Sep 26 13:58:08 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 11:58:08 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recent phishing mails are targeting
 mailing-lists -- and do pass
In-Reply-To: <d5bc614a-116b-b89b-25a8-9286607b4860@sgeinc.com>
References: <20170925104946.n7b26wflkqiwhbxh@charite.de>
 <3742acdb-fb09-069d-1077-9732c24fbd5c@msapiro.net>
 <20170926115827.0B84D7321DA@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
 <d5bc614a-116b-b89b-25a8-9286607b4860@sgeinc.com>
Message-ID: <2b02fe2f-75bf-8bb1-a221-4aaed92f458c@tnetconsulting.net>

On 09/26/2017 07:23 AM, Richard Shetron wrote:
> Spamassassin produces a numeric rating for for an email based on 
> multiple rules.? Legitimate email can easily get a rating of 3 or 4 
> based on the way you have it configured.? I've seen double digit ratings 
> as well.? If you check for a single digit, you may be filtering 
> legitimate emails that have a low score.

SpamAssassin can also be configured to provide a X-Spam-Level: header 
which includes an asterisk for each whole number in the spam score. 
Thus you can easily do textual matches on lines with more stars while 
not matching lines with fewer stars.

X-Spam-Level: *************
X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=13.3

vs

X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1

Both samples have "score=1" text, but only one has "X-Spam-Level: 
**********" text.

It's my understanding that this is exactly why SpamAssassin can be 
configured to provide the X-Spam-Level header.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From tlhackque at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 07:45:31 2017
From: tlhackque at yahoo.com (tlhackque)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 07:45:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recent phishing mails are targeting
 mailing-lists -- and do pass
In-Reply-To: <d5bc614a-116b-b89b-25a8-9286607b4860@sgeinc.com>
References: <20170925104946.n7b26wflkqiwhbxh@charite.de>
 <3742acdb-fb09-069d-1077-9732c24fbd5c@msapiro.net>
 <20170926115827.0B84D7321DA@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
 <d5bc614a-116b-b89b-25a8-9286607b4860@sgeinc.com>
Message-ID: <6a918877-de80-334a-e9a6-6c6f3e1422c4@yahoo.com>

SpamAssassin:

Don't match X-Spam-Score unless you are extracting the value and doing
computation.? Note that the value isn't necessarily numeric - e.g.
'undef - 10.0.0.23 is whitelisted' is a valid value, as are '-1.6 (-)',
'0.70 () [Tag at 5.00] COMBINED_FROM,SUBJ_YOUR_DEBT,SPF(pass,0)' and '0.00%'

Instead, match X-Spam-Level, which is designed for regex matching.

This will have a value of '*' for score 1, '**********' for score 10, etc.

So match for the minimum score that you consider spam.? (Obviously, in a
regex, you have to quote the *).

E.g. '^\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*' will match a score of 9 or higher.

On 26-Sep-17 09:23, Richard Shetron wrote:
> Spamassassin produces a numeric rating for for an email based on
> multiple rules.? Legitimate email can easily get a rating of 3 or 4
> based on the way you have it configured.? I've seen double digit
> ratings as well.? If you check for a single digit, you may be
> filtering legitimate emails that have a low score.
>
> On 9/26/2017 7:58 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> I also use Spamassassin on my server, so having a rule like:
>>
>> "X-Spam-Score: \d"
>>
>> is also helpful at catching spam and phishing mail.
>>
> [snip]
>


From List.Server.Admin at unh.edu  Thu Sep 28 16:14:21 2017
From: List.Server.Admin at unh.edu (The Mailing List Server Admin)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 16:14:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Munging the listinfo.html page automagically.
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1709281557120.21754@conundrum.unh.edu>

So I see that if I edit the list's listinfo.html page using the
list's own "HTML Page Editing" feature, the new edited file
suddenly appears in:

    ~mailman/lists/the-list-name/en/listinfo.html

Slick.

So if I wanted to make a programatic change to select group of
new lists, would it really be just as easy as...

     pipe ~mailman/templates/site/en/listinfo.html

     ---> through a filter script ---->

     to write ~mailman/lists/the-list-name/en/listinfo.html

It seems to work.  But are there any gottchas waiting to bite me
if I take this simplistic approach?  BTW -- I like that the
template file has an embedded revision number...

    <!-- $Revision: 5865 $ -->

so the script could refuse to filter a version of the template
that it is not expecting.

(Using Mailman version: 2.1.20)

-- 
                                   Cordially,
                                   the UNH Mailing List Server Admins
                                   Bill Costa, Adjunct Admin
                                   (603) 862-3056

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Sep 28 17:43:30 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 14:43:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Munging the listinfo.html page automagically.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1709281557120.21754@conundrum.unh.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.03.1709281557120.21754@conundrum.unh.edu>
Message-ID: <84f06483-1d70-f267-db7e-217645dee150@msapiro.net>

On 09/28/2017 01:14 PM, The Mailing List Server Admin wrote:
> 
> So if I wanted to make a programatic change to select group of
> new lists, would it really be just as easy as...
> 
> ??? pipe ~mailman/templates/site/en/listinfo.html
> 
> ??? ---> through a filter script ---->
> 
> ??? to write ~mailman/lists/the-list-name/en/listinfo.html
> 
> It seems to work.? But are there any gottchas waiting to bite me
> if I take this simplistic approach?


Probably not. The only issue would be if the list's preferred_language
was other than English or if the list supported non-English languages in
which case you would also want appropriate non-English templates in
~mailman/lists/the-list-name/LC/listinfo.html for the supported language
codes.

See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030605> for, among other things, the
search rules for templates.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From james at dorydesign.com  Fri Sep 29 03:13:49 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 23:13:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <22989.60493.567608.582899@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22989.60493.567608.582899@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy15wb_RFgjq4b-HP=9+qSMxVL2CG_cJ7pX2MGwngBQAJw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the reply Stephen,

I opened a trouble ticket to see if the host support had a solution to all
the spam. They suggested setting the spam reject score in SpamAssassin for
our VPS server at 3.5.  When I had it set earlier at 5, it started marking
member's posts as spam and rejected them. Didn't seem to fix when I moved
that score number to 1, though that might not be a proper number to use, I
don't know.

Anyway, the spam didn't really stop with that measure. No idea why.. the
list's domain is the only one on that vps server. So I have resorted to
using mailman settings. I have set the Sender Filters and the header
filters to filter out certain subject phrases and words and to
auto-discard. I get auto-discard notices of about 150 to 200 per day, but
since they are stacked in just a couple notices it isn't difficult to
delete. So I'm considering the problem solved unless the host complains
about our traffic. Whatever I did, I haven't had a single spam get through
my filters yet and no complaints from members about false positives. The
spammers attacking us must not be very smart, though they are persistent.

/jim

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 10:46 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

> Sorry, I've been ignoring Mailman for a few days, and I guess you've
> got a solution that works already.  This is a pair of alternatives
> that each have some advantages and disadvantages compared to your
> regexp-based solution.  FWIW, YMMV
>
> Jim Dory writes:
>
>  > Apparently our host provider performs spam tests only on outgoing,
>  > rather than incoming - since my spamassassin blacklists don't have
>  > any effect.
>
> Your spamassassin blacklists will have no effect on Mailman, since
> Mailman is not you.  Ask your provider how to configure this.  I
> strongly recommend this in preference to any measures in Mailman as it
> reduces the burden on the host.
>
>  > So I've discovered the filters offered in Mailman after being
>  > completely buried by spammers trying to post to our subscriber only
>  > list.
>
> I suppose you have cPanel, and I don't know much about their web
> management interface.  If it's similar to vanilla Mailman, in Privacy
> Filters -> Sender Filters near the bottom, there is an option
> "generic_nonmember_action".  You can set that to Discard if you're
> sufficiently sure that members always use their subscribed address, or
> are willing to have members using unsubscribed addresses to post have
> their posts silently discarded.
>
> I recommend STRONGLY against using Reject, as that often results in
> "backscatter", which is spam to "borrowed" addresses in "From".
>
> This measure will be effective against all of the spammers in the list
> below.  It will not work against spammers who spoof your subscribers'
> addresses.
>
> HTH
>
> Steve
>
>

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Fri Sep 29 02:46:37 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 15:46:37 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22989.60493.567608.582899@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Sorry, I've been ignoring Mailman for a few days, and I guess you've
got a solution that works already.  This is a pair of alternatives
that each have some advantages and disadvantages compared to your
regexp-based solution.  FWIW, YMMV

Jim Dory writes:

 > Apparently our host provider performs spam tests only on outgoing,
 > rather than incoming - since my spamassassin blacklists don't have
 > any effect.

Your spamassassin blacklists will have no effect on Mailman, since
Mailman is not you.  Ask your provider how to configure this.  I
strongly recommend this in preference to any measures in Mailman as it
reduces the burden on the host.

 > So I've discovered the filters offered in Mailman after being
 > completely buried by spammers trying to post to our subscriber only
 > list.

I suppose you have cPanel, and I don't know much about their web
management interface.  If it's similar to vanilla Mailman, in Privacy
Filters -> Sender Filters near the bottom, there is an option
"generic_nonmember_action".  You can set that to Discard if you're
sufficiently sure that members always use their subscribed address, or
are willing to have members using unsubscribed addresses to post have
their posts silently discarded.

I recommend STRONGLY against using Reject, as that often results in
"backscatter", which is spam to "borrowed" addresses in "From".

This measure will be effective against all of the spammers in the list
below.  It will not work against spammers who spoof your subscribers'
addresses.

HTH

Steve


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Sep 29 11:02:49 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 08:02:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy15wb_RFgjq4b-HP=9+qSMxVL2CG_cJ7pX2MGwngBQAJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22989.60493.567608.582899@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAKhfoy15wb_RFgjq4b-HP=9+qSMxVL2CG_cJ7pX2MGwngBQAJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58f6fa57-b668-7c52-fee7-7f575726d3b5@msapiro.net>

On 09/29/2017 12:13 AM, Jim Dory wrote:
> 
> I opened a trouble ticket to see if the host support had a solution to all
> the spam. They suggested setting the spam reject score in SpamAssassin for
> our VPS server at 3.5.  When I had it set earlier at 5, it started marking
> member's posts as spam and rejected them. Didn't seem to fix when I moved
> that score number to 1, though that might not be a proper number to use, I
> don't know.


SpamAssassin scores measure "spaminess"; the higher the score, the more
likely the message is spam. If a threshold of 5 gives false positives, 1
will give many more false positives. If you are getting too many false
positives, you need to raise the reject score, not lower it. Or, you can
adjust the score for rules that contribute too much to false positives.

There are a lot of things you can do with custom rules and scoring in
SpamAssassin, but this is not the list for discussing that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From phils at caerllewys.net  Fri Sep 29 15:05:07 2017
From: phils at caerllewys.net (Phil Stracchino)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 15:05:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam discard expressions
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy15wb_RFgjq4b-HP=9+qSMxVL2CG_cJ7pX2MGwngBQAJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3Z5EiqG47j0-yreEsy9yFjDg2x62PiWqLoSS9H-dJkHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22989.60493.567608.582899@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAKhfoy15wb_RFgjq4b-HP=9+qSMxVL2CG_cJ7pX2MGwngBQAJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a407887c-a7dc-5cd6-ff7c-7b80d8bfc53d@caerllewys.net>

On 09/29/17 03:13, Jim Dory wrote:
> The
> spammers attacking us must not be very smart, though they are persistent.

The truth, I think, is that *most* spammers aren't very smart.  The
smart ones have figured out that the real money isn't in spamming, it's
in selling spamming tools and spam hosting to the ones who haven't
figured that out yet.


-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  phils at caerllewys.net
  phil at co.ordinate.org
  Landline: +1.603.293.8485
  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958

From dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu  Fri Sep 29 14:34:23 2017
From: dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu (Dimitri Maziuk)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 13:34:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users
Message-ID: <3de25ccd-a494-bb1d-352b-34134cf48b19@bmrb.wisc.edu>

Hi all,

a few days ago I made a mistake (?) of uploading a list of ~7000
addresses into the "bulk subscribe" box. None of them made it into the
subscriber list, but at least some of the welcome e-mails went out.

Question: what is mailman actually doing? Is it waiting for all the
retries and bounces before it updates the subscriber list? Or has it
failed and I need to re-do the whole thing?

I see some of those addresses in the logs so it looks like it's the
former. If it is, is there any way to monitor mailman's progress?

(mailman 2.1.12 on centos 6.9)

Thanks in advance,
-- 
Dimitri Maziuk
Programmer/sysadmin
BioMagResBank, UW-Madison -- http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu

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From jhs at berklix.com  Sat Sep 30 12:47:39 2017
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2017 18:47:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users
In-Reply-To: Your message "Fri, 29 Sep 2017 13:34:23 -0500."
 <3de25ccd-a494-bb1d-352b-34134cf48b19@bmrb.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <201709301647.v8UGldlY094713@fire.js.berklix.net>

> Question: what is mailman actually doing? Is it waiting for all the
> retries and bounces before it updates the subscriber list? Or has it
> failed and I need to re-do the whole thing?

Look in /usr/local/mailman/logs/* /var/spool/mqueue/
or whatever your local equivalent paths are

Julian
-- 
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in EU.

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Sep 30 14:15:26 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2017 11:15:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users
In-Reply-To: <3de25ccd-a494-bb1d-352b-34134cf48b19@bmrb.wisc.edu>
References: <3de25ccd-a494-bb1d-352b-34134cf48b19@bmrb.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <71e5886c-a977-e90d-502f-e659facbc416@msapiro.net>

On 09/29/2017 11:34 AM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> 
> a few days ago I made a mistake (?) of uploading a list of ~7000
> addresses into the "bulk subscribe" box. None of them made it into the
> subscriber list, but at least some of the welcome e-mails went out.
>
> Question: what is mailman actually doing? Is it waiting for all the
> retries and bounces before it updates the subscriber list? Or has it
> failed and I need to re-do the whole thing?


Presumably the web browser timed out or was interrupted. The process is
subscribing the members one at a time. This will send a welcome as each
user is subscribed, but the updated list configuration is not saved
until the process is complete. Thus, if it's interrupted prior to
completion, the list is not actually updated and no one is subscribed.


> I see some of those addresses in the logs so it looks like it's the
> former. If it is, is there any way to monitor mailman's progress?


It's done. Nothing is "in progress". You might look at the web server
logs for the actual POST entry. It probably shows a 500 status and there
may be an error message with traceback in the web server's error log
and/or Mailman's error log.

If you really wanted to add those members, you need to rerun the mass
subscribe, preferably in smaller chunks, or you could use Mailman's
command-line bin/add_members. If you use the web UI, you can add
"additional text" to the welcome message to the effect that the user
should ignore a prior welcome if any. This is not available with
add_members.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu  Sat Sep 30 17:31:23 2017
From: dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu (Dimitri Maziuk)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2017 16:31:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users
In-Reply-To: <71e5886c-a977-e90d-502f-e659facbc416@msapiro.net>
References: <3de25ccd-a494-bb1d-352b-34134cf48b19@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <71e5886c-a977-e90d-502f-e659facbc416@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <3a8c7444-6507-f8f4-8b71-80644fb7e0d7@bmrb.wisc.edu>

On 2017-09-30 13:15, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> The process is
> subscribing the members one at a time. This will send a welcome as each
> user is subscribed, but the updated list configuration is not saved
> until the process is complete. Thus, if it's interrupted prior to
> completion, the list is not actually updated and no one is subscribed.

But the welcome messages have been sent so interrupting it and 
re-running with smaller address chunks will have some people receive the 
welcome message twice. I'd like to avoid that.

> It's done. Nothing is "in progress".

I am not asking about the web interface. I am assuming that 
bin/add_members will also "subscribe the members one at a time" and my 
definition of "in progress" is they are not all subscribed yet. AFAICT 
nothing is done until they are -- this is the point. If mailman was 
updating the membership list one subscriber at a time, I wouldn't have 
asked. BTW bin/list_members isn't showing anything as "done" yet, by my 
definition of "done", either.

That said, the part about subscribing them one at a time but not 
updating list configuration until all is done is what I wanted to 
confirm, thank you.

I assume it does save state internally and the process will be resumed 
if interrupted? (E.g. disk crash, power loss, PFY decides to update the 
kernel and reboot because they didn't get the memo?)

Thanks again,
Dima

From luscheina at yahoo.de  Sat Sep 30 18:15:23 2017
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2017 00:15:23 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users
In-Reply-To: <3a8c7444-6507-f8f4-8b71-80644fb7e0d7@bmrb.wisc.edu>
References: <3de25ccd-a494-bb1d-352b-34134cf48b19@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <71e5886c-a977-e90d-502f-e659facbc416@msapiro.net>
 <3a8c7444-6507-f8f4-8b71-80644fb7e0d7@bmrb.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <20171001001523175396.ed6f01e1@yahoo.de>

Hello Dimitri Maziuk. On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 16:31:23 -0500, you wrote:

> But the welcome messages have been sent so interrupting it and 
> re-running with smaller address chunks will have some people receive 
> the welcome message twice. I'd like to avoid that.

I don't think so.  My My Mailman installation complains that the user already is subscribed if I want to subscribe him/her again. The same happens when I want to unsubscribe a non-existing user. 

Christian 
-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

.

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Sep 30 18:19:13 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2017 15:19:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users
In-Reply-To: <3a8c7444-6507-f8f4-8b71-80644fb7e0d7@bmrb.wisc.edu>
References: <3de25ccd-a494-bb1d-352b-34134cf48b19@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <71e5886c-a977-e90d-502f-e659facbc416@msapiro.net>
 <3a8c7444-6507-f8f4-8b71-80644fb7e0d7@bmrb.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <d435f7a3-5253-099d-f5b1-83f63e0ed988@msapiro.net>

On 09/30/2017 02:31 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> 
> But the welcome messages have been sent so interrupting it and
> re-running with smaller address chunks will have some people receive the
> welcome message twice. I'd like to avoid that.


TRhe welcome messages contain randomly generated user passwords which
will be different when the user is actually subscribed.

You could figure from logs which users received welcomes and mass
subscribe them without sending a welcome, but then the welcome they
received will not have the correct password.


>> It's done. Nothing is "in progress".
> 
> I am not asking about the web interface. I am assuming that
> bin/add_members will also "subscribe the members one at a time" and my
> definition of "in progress" is they are not all subscribed yet.


It's in progress as far as you're concerned, but not as far as Mailman
is concerned. As far as Mailman is concerned, some users were sent
welcome messages, but no one has been subscribed. End of story.


> AFAICT
> nothing is done until they are -- this is the point. If mailman was
> updating the membership list one subscriber at a time, I wouldn't have
> asked. BTW bin/list_members isn't showing anything as "done" yet, by my
> definition of "done", either.


And it won't no matter how long you wait.


> That said, the part about subscribing them one at a time but not
> updating list configuration until all is done is what I wanted to
> confirm, thank you.
> 
> I assume it does save state internally and the process will be resumed
> if interrupted? (E.g. disk crash, power loss, PFY decides to update the
> kernel and reboot because they didn't get the memo?)


Wrong. You have to start over. Nothing is saved from the first attempt.
The process died and the state was restored to the last known good state
which is before anyone was subscribed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Sep 30 18:21:45 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2017 15:21:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users
In-Reply-To: <20171001001523175396.ed6f01e1@yahoo.de>
References: <3de25ccd-a494-bb1d-352b-34134cf48b19@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <71e5886c-a977-e90d-502f-e659facbc416@msapiro.net>
 <3a8c7444-6507-f8f4-8b71-80644fb7e0d7@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <20171001001523175396.ed6f01e1@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <eb41d8e6-656d-ad73-8cb9-249406e8db38@msapiro.net>

On 09/30/2017 03:15 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Hello Dimitri Maziuk. On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 16:31:23 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> But the welcome messages have been sent so interrupting it and 
>> re-running with smaller address chunks will have some people receive 
>> the welcome message twice. I'd like to avoid that.
> 
> I don't think so.  My My Mailman installation complains that the user already is subscribed if I want to subscribe him/her again. The same happens when I want to unsubscribe a non-existing user. 


Except in this case the users aren't subscribed because the process was
aborted and configuration changes were lost so mass subscribe will
subscribe them and send a welcome if requested.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan