From stefan.bauer.extern at elster.de  Mon Dec  2 03:44:16 2019
From: stefan.bauer.extern at elster.de (Stefan Bauer)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 08:44:16 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] removing s/mime parts before distributing mail to
 list-members required?
Message-ID: <kcRK.AAAAAIrXLcogSUD0o/S2ngzXsBkBAAAABQAAAOYem7o5JE3UrxzY16eMFw4AAAAA.ADDdreyo1QE=@edmkop02>

Hi,



thank you for mailman!



More and more mails contain s/mime signatures. How to deal with that? We do not want to send out "broken" mails. What is best practice?



Removing the s/mime part seems right, but how to do that? pass_mime_types could help, but



removing multipart (and?specifying multipart/alternative and multipart/mixed) from list blocks allmost all mails.



Any help is greatly appreciated.



Thank you.



Stefan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec  2 12:16:02 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:16:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] removing s/mime parts before distributing mail
 to list-members required?
In-Reply-To: <kcRK.AAAAAIrXLcogSUD0o/S2ngzXsBkBAAAABQAAAOYem7o5JE3UrxzY16eMFw4AAAAA.ADDdreyo1QE=@edmkop02>
References: <kcRK.AAAAAIrXLcogSUD0o/S2ngzXsBkBAAAABQAAAOYem7o5JE3UrxzY16eMFw4AAAAA.ADDdreyo1QE=@edmkop02>
Message-ID: <27621161-dab5-0f45-903e-692a5a31a9cb@msapiro.net>

On 12/2/19 12:44 AM, Stefan Bauer via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> More and more mails contain s/mime signatures. How to deal with that? We do not want to send out "broken" mails. What is best practice?

This reply is signed. I don't think the sig will be broken.


> Removing the s/mime part seems right, but how to do that? pass_mime_types could help, but


pass_mime_types for this list is:

multipart
text/plain
text/x-diff
text/x-patch
application/pgp-signature
application/pkcs7-signature
text/html
message/rfc822

Both collapse_alternatives and convert_html_to_plaintext are Yes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Tue Dec  3 01:10:36 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 15:10:36 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] removing s/mime parts before distributing mail to
 list-members required?
In-Reply-To: <kcRK.AAAAAIrXLcogSUD0o/S2ngzXsBkBAAAABQAAAOYem7o5JE3UrxzY16eMFw4AAAAA.ADDdreyo1QE=@edmkop02>
References: <kcRK.AAAAAIrXLcogSUD0o/S2ngzXsBkBAAAABQAAAOYem7o5JE3UrxzY16eMFw4AAAAA.ADDdreyo1QE=@edmkop02>
Message-ID: <24037.64604.358572.384052@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Stefan Bauer via Mailman-Users writes:

 > More and more mails contain s/mime signatures. How to deal with
 > that? 

To add to what Mark says, I would say not at all.  I would consider
broken S/MIME signatures to be a bug, because Mailman should be
treating the multipart/signed *part* as a block, and appending both
header (if any) and footer (if any) as separate parts.  The content
subpart should be unchanged so the signature should not be broken.  If
subscribers complain that signatures don't verify, please report that
to us.  (I'm not sure we would do anything about it, since Mailman 2
is nearing end-of-life.  On the other hand I would consider it a
priority for Mailman 3, and it might not be hard to backport.)

The problems with signatures have to do with signatures intended to
ensure integrity of the whole message, usually DKIM.  These signatures
are necessarily broken if Mailman makes any change to the message body
or to the specified message header fields.  S/MIME only deals with
body parts on a part by part basis, and Mailman doesn't need to change
those.

Steve

From brett at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Wed Dec  4 22:23:50 2019
From: brett at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (Brett Delmage)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 22:23:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installing Mailman on a Debian system with
 Apache 2.4.2, CGI error!
In-Reply-To: <027fa63b-e188-01e7-3f1b-08cb84b52914@msapiro.net>
References: <3e937abe-40ae-fab0-dd72-6e358b49c379@bluegrasspals.com>
 <e7f186b3-ef51-d551-047f-94821dd6a941@msapiro.net>
 <3dab51d8-5d4b-d7d1-8168-582e6878d687@bluegrasspals.com>
 <027fa63b-e188-01e7-3f1b-08cb84b52914@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1912042217310.15184@pannier.local>

On 05/06/2018 08:37 PM, Jayson Smith wrote:
>> It seems that by default, Debian's Apache install doesn't enable the CGI
>> module. Somehow, it sort of works better if you enable CGI. It works
>> better if you plug it in.
>> 
>> Head?desk. I'd spent hours trying to troubleshoot this! Sometimes the
>> most obvious things escape the best of us.

On Mon, 7 May 2018, Mark Sapiro replied:

> Don't feel bad. I knew I'd seen this before, and I couldn't remember the
> cause, and it never occurred to me either that the obvious explanation
> was mod_cgi not enabled.

Heh.

I tightened a new server upgrade recently, thinking 'I don't use CGI 
(only php-fpm) - let's disable it for extra security!'

And if it wasn't for this helpful message here I would STILL be 
scratching my head like Jayson was...

These archives are still gold. Thanks for sharing, folks!

Brett

From david at midrange.com  Thu Dec  5 11:57:46 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 10:57:46 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Check message size before moderation status?
Message-ID: <CAEStNXk-Nbv9PCc2n9_qCvDDu7JgReJQ_LwxMGHVjmB3M1GqrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Folks:

I want to adjust my MM install so that it will check the message size
before a subscribers moderation status.

Would this be the appropriate change to mm_cfg.py?

GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('Moderate')
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Emergency'), 'Moderate')

Thanks!

david
-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to
raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.
You can make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by visiting
https://mideml.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive
donation map ... https://mideml.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky
thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!

From johnson at Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU  Thu Dec  5 13:03:05 2019
From: johnson at Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU (Bruce  Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:03:05 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Achiving not working, no .mbox file is being created
Message-ID: <73DC55A4-15C4-4CE0-A4F1-A18259AF8A3B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

We?re running v 2.1.12 under CentOS 6. Lists have been running fine for years, but recently a list owner wanted to start archiving the list messages. He turned on archiving,  made them private, set the frequency ,, but nothing is being archived.

I?ve reproduced the issue for a test list; the archive directories are created, but no .mbox file is being created when messages are sent.

I?ve run check-perm -f to fix any permissions issues, but that did not fix it.

we?re sending email via postfix set up to relay to our actual SMTP server. 

There are no errors associated with ArchRunner in the error or qrunner logs, and no errors associated with the unarchived posts in any of the logs. I don?t see anything in the system logs either.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec  5 15:59:56 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 12:59:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Check message size before moderation status?
In-Reply-To: <CAEStNXk-Nbv9PCc2n9_qCvDDu7JgReJQ_LwxMGHVjmB3M1GqrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEStNXk-Nbv9PCc2n9_qCvDDu7JgReJQ_LwxMGHVjmB3M1GqrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18242ba6-0d62-b51b-1e3c-43d9bfe0104b@msapiro.net>

On 12/5/19 8:57 AM, David Gibbs via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Folks:
> 
> I want to adjust my MM install so that it will check the message size
> before a subscribers moderation status.
> 
> Would this be the appropriate change to mm_cfg.py?
> 
> GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('Moderate')
> GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Emergency'), 'Moderate')


That would move Moderate after Hold, MimeDel and Scrubber. I.e., member
moderation and non-member actions would be deferred until after
miscellaneous holds, content filtering and non-digest scrubbing. If
that's what you want, the above would do it. However, what you stated in
words was you want 'too big' before moderation. I would do that with

GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('Hold')
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Moderate'), 'Hold')

which would put the miscellaneous holds before moderation and non-member
checks.

As an aside, I find this to be useful:

#
# Put MimeDel ahead of Hold so "too big" is based on content filtered
# message.
#
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('MimeDel')
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Hold'), 'MimeDel')


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec  5 16:04:52 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 13:04:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Achiving not working,
 no .mbox file is being created
In-Reply-To: <73DC55A4-15C4-4CE0-A4F1-A18259AF8A3B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <73DC55A4-15C4-4CE0-A4F1-A18259AF8A3B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <caf4f2d7-675f-e2f8-e72c-6fa7ccb7ceed@msapiro.net>

On 12/5/19 10:03 AM, Bruce  Johnson wrote:
> 
> I?ve reproduced the issue for a test list; the archive directories are created, but no .mbox file is being created when messages are sent.
> 
> I?ve run check-perm -f to fix any permissions issues, but that did not fix it.
> 
> we?re sending email via postfix set up to relay to our actual SMTP server. 
> 
> There are no errors associated with ArchRunner in the error or qrunner logs, and no errors associated with the unarchived posts in any of the logs. I don?t see anything in the system logs either.


What is the mm_cfg.py setting for ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX. The possibilities are

#-1 - do not do any archiving
# 0 - do not archive to mbox, use builtin mailman html archiving only
# 1 - do not use builtin mailman html archiving, archive to mbox only
# 2 - archive to both mbox and builtin mailman html archiving.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From johnson at Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU  Thu Dec  5 16:25:23 2019
From: johnson at Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU (Bruce  Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:25:23 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Achiving not working,
 no .mbox file is being created
In-Reply-To: <caf4f2d7-675f-e2f8-e72c-6fa7ccb7ceed@msapiro.net>
References: <73DC55A4-15C4-4CE0-A4F1-A18259AF8A3B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <caf4f2d7-675f-e2f8-e72c-6fa7ccb7ceed@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <8802DC44-943F-4B20-9412-B68876704BC2@pharmacy.arizona.edu>



On Dec 5, 2019, at 2:04 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net<mailto:mark at msapiro.net>> wrote:

On 12/5/19 10:03 AM, Bruce  Johnson wrote:

I?ve reproduced the issue for a test list; the archive directories are created, but no .mbox file is being created when messages are sent.

I?ve run check-perm -f to fix any permissions issues, but that did not fix it.

we?re sending email via postfix set up to relay to our actual SMTP server.

There are no errors associated with ArchRunner in the error or qrunner logs, and no errors associated with the unarchived posts in any of the logs. I don?t see anything in the system logs either.


What is the mm_cfg.py setting for ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX. The possibilities are

#-1 - do not do any archiving
# 0 - do not archive to mbox, use builtin mailman html archiving only
# 1 - do not use builtin mailman html archiving, archive to mbox only
# 2 - archive to both mbox and builtin mailman html archiving.

Thanks, that was it, it was set to -1. If I set it to anything else this only affects lists that have archiving turned on?

--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec  5 17:36:16 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:36:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Achiving not working,
 no .mbox file is being created
In-Reply-To: <8802DC44-943F-4B20-9412-B68876704BC2@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <73DC55A4-15C4-4CE0-A4F1-A18259AF8A3B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <caf4f2d7-675f-e2f8-e72c-6fa7ccb7ceed@msapiro.net>
 <8802DC44-943F-4B20-9412-B68876704BC2@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <16b08714-1193-9442-3be6-aeb64663360a@msapiro.net>

On 12/5/19 1:25 PM, Bruce  Johnson wrote:
> 
> Thanks, that was it, it was set to -1. If I set it to anything else this only affects lists that have archiving turned on?


Correct.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From hansen at rc.org  Sat Dec  7 00:17:03 2019
From: hansen at rc.org (Allan Hansen)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 21:17:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
Message-ID: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>

All,

One of my main gripes is the From: mangling that we had to use to allow AOL and Yahoo subscribers to send messages without messing everyone else up. I have now been informed that Mailman 3 does not solve this problem, but I?d like to move to Mailman 3 anyway. So what to do?

How about this:

1. Replace the From: address with a no-reply address on the list server. Don?t add the sender?s address in quotes.
2. Keep the ?Reply-To:? address as the sender?s address (that?s what I have it set to now - I don?t want people to reply to the lists).
3. Put HTML mailto: links for ?Reply to Sender? and Reply to List? at the bottom of the message.


My other solution:

Require subscribers from AOL/Yahoo and whichever other service with the same misguided policy to get another email address for the lists.


Is there anyone on this who will be willing to help installing Mailman 3 for me on a Linux system. I have tried and I have had two experts try as well, but we have all run into difficulty. I?ll pay, of course.

Yours,

	Allan Hansen







From brian_carpenter at emwd.com  Sat Dec  7 06:58:49 2019
From: brian_carpenter at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 06:58:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
Message-ID: <024F42E8-D8B2-4362-9B21-388BE3A5BD50@emwd.com>

Hi Allan,

I have successfully installed Mailman 3 on 4 servers now. Please contact me off list if you are interested in my installation service.

Thanks,
Brian Carpenter 

> On Dec 7, 2019, at 12:17 AM, Allan Hansen <hansen at rc.org> wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> One of my main gripes is the From: mangling that we had to use to allow AOL and Yahoo subscribers to send messages without messing everyone else up. I have now been informed that Mailman 3 does not solve this problem, but I?d like to move to Mailman 3 anyway. So what to do?
> 
> How about this:
> 
> 1. Replace the From: address with a no-reply address on the list server. Don?t add the sender?s address in quotes.
> 2. Keep the ?Reply-To:? address as the sender?s address (that?s what I have it set to now - I don?t want people to reply to the lists).
> 3. Put HTML mailto: links for ?Reply to Sender? and Reply to List? at the bottom of the message.
> 
> 
> My other solution:
> 
> Require subscribers from AOL/Yahoo and whichever other service with the same misguided policy to get another email address for the lists.
> 
> 
> Is there anyone on this who will be willing to help installing Mailman 3 for me on a Linux system. I have tried and I have had two experts try as well, but we have all run into difficulty. I?ll pay, of course.
> 
> Yours,
> 
>    Allan Hansen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brian_carpenter%40emwd.com


From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Sat Dec  7 09:21:04 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:21:04 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
Message-ID: <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Allan Hansen writes:

 > 1. Replace the From: address with a no-reply address on the list
 >    server. Don?t add the sender?s address in quotes.

I believe this requires a change in the Mailman code.

I guess you want the author's display name, if available, there?  What
if there is no display name, or it doesn't identify the author?  I
guess the best play would be the mailbox of the author.

How about "mailbox AT domain.com"?  I guess some nontechnical users
might just copy that to an address field with less than amusing
results, but it might be useful in manual lookups in address books,
since most clients do not display Reply-To.

 > 2. Keep the ?Reply-To:? address as the sender?s address (that?s
 >    what I have it set to now - I don?t want people to reply to the
 >    lists).

I believe this doesn't need a change to Mailman.

 > 3. Put HTML mailto: links for ?Reply to Sender? and Reply to List?
 >    at the bottom of the message.

A mailto link for the list is configurable.  However, the link for
author would require changes to Mailman code I'm pretty sure.  Also,
as explained below, it's probably very unreliable and unattractive to
try to use links to simulate a mail client's reply function.

First of all, users expect a reply function to copy the text of the
original.  mailto URLs don't provide a facility for that.  We would
have to add code to copy the text to the URL.  I'm not sure how
typical clients would react to that, and if the original is plain
text, the message's whole text would be visibly duplicated in the
footer of the message distributed to subscribers, which would likely
be displayed as is by most clients.  This would be pretty distressing
to most subscribers, I think.  Also, I expect most clients use the DOM
they have constructed to display the original mail to populate replies
they construct themselves, but Mailman can't know about that.  Users
may not be pleased with replies constructed from a mailto URL; in
particular, it would not be displayed or transmitted as copied, but
rather as original text.

Second, users expect replies to preserve threading.  This would mean
adding References or at least In-Reply-To header fields to the mailto
URLs.  This would be straightforward to implement, but would result in
large, unreadable plaintext footers, if some users are sending
plaintext mail.  (Though it wouldn't be as bad as if you tried to
include the original text in the reply's composition window, I imagine
you'd get complaints.)  Again, I'm not sure how typical clients would
deal with it, whether they would follow the RFCs or screw up.

Third, if you mean "links as HTML" rather than "insert URLs
somehow", this is rather problematic.  HTML mail is a minefield.
There are standards, but in practice they're all violated by one
client or another.  Manipulating HTML before forwarding to the
subscribers is very likely to have bad side effects for some mail
composed by some clients.

You're also not guaranteed that all the subscribers even use HTML
mail, in which case even if added as HTML, in those messages you'd
have all the ugliness described above.

Steve


From hansen at rc.org  Sat Dec  7 22:56:29 2019
From: hansen at rc.org (Allan Hansen)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 19:56:29 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
 <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <D0EA0512-4F46-4918-8B34-24D68B217E04@rc.org>

Stephen et al.,

You?re right that using links instead of a Reply function is unattractive and not how email is supposed to work. On the other hand, the same surely goes for the To: mangling:

I have set the ReplyTo: as the author, it?s not the immediate replying as such that is an issue, and the mangled string is factually correct. The issue comes when Apple Mail does auto-completion and hides the email address.

A mangled From: address like this:

"Allan Hansen (hansen at rc.org <mailto:hansen at rc.org>) via list" <rc at mail.rc.org <mailto:rc at mail.rc.org>>

will show up as 

?Allan Hansen (hansen at rc.org <mailto:hansen at rc.org>) via list? 

in Apple Mail with the address hidden by the mail client. Anyone sending to that string will assume that it goes to me. It does not. It goes to the list.

So putting ?Allan Hansen (hansen AT rc.org <http://rc.org/>)" in the description will not help this issue. Using it with auto-completion will still send it to the hidden list address.

You?re right that if the author is sending HTML mail, adding a hyperlink to it is not likely to be successful at all. So maybe that?s not a good solution. On the other hand, if this is the case, it appears that the automatically inserted message footer added by Mailman is working fine (see next). Would anything prevent adding to this section? Can it be a REPLY button?

        ------------------------------------------------------
        Allan's mailing list
        allan at mail.rc.org <mailto:allan at mail.rc.org>	
	<http://mail.rc.org/mailman/listinfo/allan <http://mail.rc.org/mailman/listinfo/allan>>


I did the code change for the mangling long ago, on advice from this list. It worked for a while, until the auto-completion issue and hiding of the actual email addresses messed it up. I?d rather not have the same problems in Mailman 3, so I?m looking for something, anything - even if it?s not nice, that does not cause my subscribers to be confused or to send private messages to 1000 people without knowing it.

Yours,

	Allan



> On Dec 7, 2019, at 6:21 , Stephen J. Turnbull <turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
> 
> Allan Hansen writes:
> 
>> 1. Replace the From: address with a no-reply address on the list
>>   server. Don?t add the sender?s address in quotes.
> 
> I believe this requires a change in the Mailman code.
> 
> I guess you want the author's display name, if available, there?  What
> if there is no display name, or it doesn't identify the author?  I
> guess the best play would be the mailbox of the author.
> 
> I guess some nontechnical users
> might just copy that to an address field with less than amusing
> results, but it might be useful in manual lookups in address books,
> since most clients do not display Reply-To.
> 
>> 2. Keep the ?Reply-To:? address as the sender?s address (that?s
>>   what I have it set to now - I don?t want people to reply to the
>>   lists).
> 
> I believe this doesn't need a change to Mailman.
> 
>> 3. Put HTML mailto: links for ?Reply to Sender? and Reply to List?
>>   at the bottom of the message.
> 
> A mailto link for the list is configurable.  However, the link for
> author would require changes to Mailman code I'm pretty sure.  Also,
> as explained below, it's probably very unreliable and unattractive to
> try to use links to simulate a mail client's reply function.
> 
> First of all, users expect a reply function to copy the text of the
> original.  mailto URLs don't provide a facility for that.  We would
> have to add code to copy the text to the URL.  I'm not sure how
> typical clients would react to that, and if the original is plain
> text, the message's whole text would be visibly duplicated in the
> footer of the message distributed to subscribers, which would likely
> be displayed as is by most clients.  This would be pretty distressing
> to most subscribers, I think.  Also, I expect most clients use the DOM
> they have constructed to display the original mail to populate replies
> they construct themselves, but Mailman can't know about that.  Users
> may not be pleased with replies constructed from a mailto URL; in
> particular, it would not be displayed or transmitted as copied, but
> rather as original text.
> 
> Second, users expect replies to preserve threading.  This would mean
> adding References or at least In-Reply-To header fields to the mailto
> URLs.  This would be straightforward to implement, but would result in
> large, unreadable plaintext footers, if some users are sending
> plaintext mail.  (Though it wouldn't be as bad as if you tried to
> include the original text in the reply's composition window, I imagine
> you'd get complaints.)  Again, I'm not sure how typical clients would
> deal with it, whether they would follow the RFCs or screw up.
> 
> Third, if you mean "links as HTML" rather than "insert URLs
> somehow", this is rather problematic.  HTML mail is a minefield.
> There are standards, but in practice they're all violated by one
> client or another.  Manipulating HTML before forwarding to the
> subscribers is very likely to have bad side effects for some mail
> composed by some clients.
> 
> You're also not guaranteed that all the subscribers even use HTML
> mail, in which case even if added as HTML, in those messages you'd
> have all the ugliness described above.
> 
> Steve
> 


From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Sun Dec  8 23:17:46 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 13:17:46 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <D0EA0512-4F46-4918-8B34-24D68B217E04@rc.org>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
 <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <D0EA0512-4F46-4918-8B34-24D68B217E04@rc.org>
Message-ID: <24045.51946.643356.59506@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Allan Hansen writes:

 > I have set the ReplyTo: as the author, it?s not the immediate
 > replying as such that is an issue, and the mangled string is
 > factually correct. The issue comes when Apple Mail does
 > auto-completion and hides the email address.
 > 
 > A mangled From: address like this:
 > 
 > "Allan Hansen (hansen at rc.org <mailto:hansen at rc.org>) via list" <rc at mail.rc.org <mailto:rc at mail.rc.org>>

That's not our mangling, it's your client's.  Ours would look like
this:

    "Allan Hansen (hansen at rc.org) via list" <rc at mail.rc.org>

Most likely, the client actually uses the Mailman version in composing
replies but displays the above to you (or presents it to the system
highlight-and-copy function).

 > will show up as 
 > 
 > ?Allan Hansen (hansen at rc.org <mailto:hansen at rc.org>) via list? 
 > 
 > in Apple Mail with the address hidden by the mail client. Anyone
 > sending to that string will assume that it goes to me. It does
 > not. It goes to the list.

I don't contest your statement of fact, but if Reply-To indeed
contains author, it should go to author.  (I believe we *always* add
author to Reply-To if Munge From is in effect.)  If it doesn't go to
Reply-To, the client is at fault, because if Reply-To is set, it is
the *author*'s preferred address for receiving replies, and From
*should* be ignored in collecting the addressees to use in replies.
(It's possible that it *also* goes to the list, if the list is in
Reply-To or the user requests "reply to all".)

Bottom line: I'll do what I can to help you, but I'm not sure whatever
it is we come up with is suitable for adding to the main Mailman
distribution.

 > On the other hand, if this is the case, it appears that the
 > automatically inserted message footer added by Mailman is working
 > fine (see next). Would anything prevent adding to this section?

No.

 > Can it be a REPLY button?

No.  I'm pretty sure the footer is plain text (see below) and plain
text can't specify buttons.  The *client* can add them as easily as it
can turn addresses in text into clickable links.

The problem is that the From (if no Reply-To) and Reply-To (preferred
if present) header fields are the only reliable ways to inform the
client that a given address is the author's preferred reply address.
In other words, if it ain't working, it's broke beyond what we can do
to fix.  We can maybe help or workaround, but no promises, because
anything we do will require cooperation from your subscribers to be
effective.  We can help make the RightThang[tm] easier to discover,
but the proverb about horses and water applies.

 >         ------------------------------------------------------
 >         Allan's mailing list
 >         allan at mail.rc.org <mailto:allan at mail.rc.org>	
 > 	<http://mail.rc.org/mailman/listinfo/allan <http://mail.rc.org/mailman/listinfo/allan>>

I don't know what your client is so I can't be sure, but the line of
hyphens suggests that the footer is added as a text/plain part, not
text/html.  In any case, Mailman presents the addresses as text, not
as links, so it must be something the client is doing.

It turns out to be easy for software to recognize URLs in text, so
most clients do so and turn them into links automatically, even though
Mailman doesn't.  I'm pretty sure that this works fine in almost all
clients.  When it doesn't, it's normally an easy copy-paste.  Adding a
mailto URL to list in the footer can be done, it's just a matter of
editing a template.  (I don't think that editing can be done in
Postorius (the admin on the web module) yet, but I believe it's on the
todo list.)

Adding a mailto URL to author probably requires a feature we don't
have yet (I don't think the author's address is made available to the
footer generation function.)  I will look into that.  Again, even with
this feature you would have to customize in the footer template.  It
will not be a default behavior of Mailman.

 > I did the code change for the mangling long ago, on advice from
 > this list. It worked for a while, until the auto-completion issue
 > and hiding of the actual email addresses messed it up. I?d rather
 > not have the same problems in Mailman 3, so I?m looking for
 > something, anything - even if it?s not nice, that does not cause my
 > subscribers to be confused or to send private messages to 1000
 > people without knowing it.

Without seeing a full header of a message as distributed by your list,
I can't be sure.  But if the settings are as you say and the From and
Reply-To headers are set as I expect they are, there is no sure way to
prevent misaddressed mail except to change clients, because the
clients that reply to From in the presence of a Reply-To field are
just plain broken.  The list cannot work around them without risking
breaking other clients, where those other clients *are* conforming to
Internet standards.

Alternatively, you could ban posts by @yahoo.com and @aol.com
addresses, in which case most of the need to munge from goes away.

But neither of those is likely to make your subscribers happy.  People
hate changing their mail clients and mail addresses more than anything
else in computing, it seems.  I can't really blame them about hating
to change address, for sure, and I don't know of any mail clients that
make it simple to change to a different one.  There are always some
data that you depend on that have to be extracted from the previous
client per https://xkcd.com/538/ ;-).

BTW, I have not used EMWD myself, but Brian is a good citizen on the
list, and he does due diligence on this list in terms of asking us to
help with solving problems for his clients.  EMWD is top of my list if
I ever decide to delegate my list or servers to a commercial service.

Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec  8 23:42:36 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 20:42:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <24045.51946.643356.59506@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
 <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <D0EA0512-4F46-4918-8B34-24D68B217E04@rc.org>
 <24045.51946.643356.59506@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <a56786ef-07ab-bd38-748b-7dc81150c198@msapiro.net>

On 12/8/19 8:17 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> That's not our mangling, it's your client's.  Ours would look like
> this:
> 
>     "Allan Hansen (hansen at rc.org) via list" <rc at mail.rc.org>


Actually, that's still not quite correct. Ours looks like

"xxx via list" <rc at mail.rc.org>

where xxx is
if original From contains a display name then that display name
else if original From is a member and the member has a real name then
that real name
else the From email address.

I.e., it could be

"Allan Hansen via list" <rc at mail.rc.org>

or

"hansen at rc.org via list" <rc at mail.rc.org>

but wouldn't be

"Allan Hansen (hansen at rc.org) via list" <rc at mail.rc.org>

I suspect this latter is due to what Allan alluded to when he said "I
did the code change for the mangling long ago ...".

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Mon Dec  9 02:39:18 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 16:39:18 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <a56786ef-07ab-bd38-748b-7dc81150c198@msapiro.net>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
 <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <D0EA0512-4F46-4918-8B34-24D68B217E04@rc.org>
 <24045.51946.643356.59506@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <a56786ef-07ab-bd38-748b-7dc81150c198@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <24045.64038.439028.932993@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > Actually, that's still not quite correct. Ours looks like
 > 
 > "xxx via list" <rc at mail.rc.org>

Thank you for the correction.

I wonder whether users would behave differently if we used "list on
behalf of xxx" instead of "xxx via list"?

 > I suspect this latter is due to what Allan alluded to when he said "I
 > did the code change for the mangling long ago ...".

Ah, I see.


From hansen at rc.org  Mon Dec  9 09:06:18 2019
From: hansen at rc.org (Allan Hansen)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 06:06:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <24045.51946.643356.59506@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
 <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <D0EA0512-4F46-4918-8B34-24D68B217E04@rc.org>
 <24045.51946.643356.59506@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <51EAAB9C-102B-47A2-89D3-F6F8F20B2142@rc.org>

Hi Stephen,

Thank you a bunch for looking into this.

I was trying to say that ReplyTo: works fine, for just the reasons you mention. No problem there. At first. ;-)
But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ?Previous Recipients? list to help with auto-completion later.

Here are the steps. I?m avoiding real addresses, as my mail client further mangled them with the auto-inserted ?mailto:? command confusing my message.

Here goes:

a. Subscriber receives message from the list. The From: is a mangled From: as recommended, and the ReplyTo: is the author?s emal address:
	From: Author Name (author.address) via list <list.address>
	ReplyTo: author.address

b. Subscriber replies to author. Sees correct To: address (the author.address) from the ReplyTo: header. So far all is apparently OK.
However, to be ?helpful? with auto-completion later, Apple puts the mangled string ?Author Name (author.address) via list <list.address>? into the mail client?s  ?Previous Recipients? list!! 
	To: author.address
	
c. Subscriber much later tries to send a private message to the author and starts typing "Autho...". Apple at this point retrieves the mangled string from the ?Previous Recipents? list, but in their infinite wisdom, they hide the actual address, which is the list address. The subscriber does not suspect that things have gone awry because it looks fine. Well, not completely fine, but enough so. So he/she hits ?Send? while seeing this and only this in their To: field:
	To: Author Name (author.address) via list

d. People on the list receive a private message that was intended for the original author. Result: red faces all around and possibly private data exposed to the entire list. I just now happened to receive such a message from one of my lists! No real disaster this time, luckily, but confusing for the lists members. 

I do tell people to clean up their ?Previous Recipients? list, they eventually forget and this happens again.

If this can?t be solved somehow, I will have to unsub all my AOL and YAHOO subscribers (a lot), as it?s too dangerous to have the mangling causing these privacy mishaps. They don?t really have to change their main email, just get another one that they use only for the lists.

By the way, I have asked Brian to help with installing Mailman 3 and look forward to working with him and with the new system.

Yours,

	Allan

From halbert at halwitz.org  Mon Dec  9 09:38:00 2019
From: halbert at halwitz.org (Dan Halbert)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 09:38:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <51EAAB9C-102B-47A2-89D3-F6F8F20B2142@rc.org>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
 <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <D0EA0512-4F46-4918-8B34-24D68B217E04@rc.org>
 <24045.51946.643356.59506@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <51EAAB9C-102B-47A2-89D3-F6F8F20B2142@rc.org>
Message-ID: <2910a25a-2d25-da45-2346-7f25f98a39e2@halwitz.org>

This is exactly the problem I mentioned a few weeks earlier that did not 
elicit much of a response. I asked for some way to change the "via" 
string and there wasn't one. I have to remind people periodically to 
remove any "via" entries from their address books.

AOL/Yahoo/Verizon cause other problems too, due to server reputation. I 
signed up for a hosted Mailman 3 service, added a list with about 60 
A/Y/V addresses, and it caused terrible server reputation problems for 
the provider. Mail delivery to A/Y/V was simply dropped or held up for 
days, and was always classified as spam. It appears to be ameliorated 
now, but it was a horror show. No amount of cajoling can get the users 
off those providers - they have enough trouble just operating their mail 
clients. And I cannot simply drop them: they are members of an 
organization the lists serve.

Dan

On 12/9/19 9:06 AM, Allan Hansen wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
>
> Thank you a bunch for looking into this.
>
> I was trying to say that ReplyTo: works fine, for just the reasons you mention. No problem there. At first. ;-)
> But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ?Previous Recipients? list to help with auto-completion later.
>
> Here are the steps. I?m avoiding real addresses, as my mail client further mangled them with the auto-inserted ?mailto:? command confusing my message.
>
> Here goes:
>
> a. Subscriber receives message from the list. The From: is a mangled From: as recommended, and the ReplyTo: is the author?s emal address:
> 	From: Author Name (author.address) via list <list.address>
> 	ReplyTo: author.address
>
> b. Subscriber replies to author. Sees correct To: address (the author.address) from the ReplyTo: header. So far all is apparently OK.
> However, to be ?helpful? with auto-completion later, Apple puts the mangled string ?Author Name (author.address) via list <list.address>? into the mail client?s  ?Previous Recipients? list!!
> 	To: author.address
> 	
> c. Subscriber much later tries to send a private message to the author and starts typing "Autho...". Apple at this point retrieves the mangled string from the ?Previous Recipents? list, but in their infinite wisdom, they hide the actual address, which is the list address. The subscriber does not suspect that things have gone awry because it looks fine. Well, not completely fine, but enough so. So he/she hits ?Send? while seeing this and only this in their To: field:
> 	To: Author Name (author.address) via list
>
> d. People on the list receive a private message that was intended for the original author. Result: red faces all around and possibly private data exposed to the entire list. I just now happened to receive such a message from one of my lists! No real disaster this time, luckily, but confusing for the lists members.
>
> I do tell people to clean up their ?Previous Recipients? list, they eventually forget and this happens again.
>
> If this can?t be solved somehow, I will have to unsub all my AOL and YAHOO subscribers (a lot), as it?s too dangerous to have the mangling causing these privacy mishaps. They don?t really have to change their main email, just get another one that they use only for the lists.
>
> By the way, I have asked Brian to help with installing Mailman 3 and look forward to working with him and with the new system.
>
> Yours,
>
> 	Allan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/halbert%40halwitz.org


From geoff.campbell at internetworking.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 06:42:22 2019
From: geoff.campbell at internetworking.co.uk (Geoff Campbell)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 11:42:22 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Apache ScriptAlias and POST
Message-ID: <CAArSzfc78h9x_QtVGo=J3FUD6C5ysRUNmxObh96XQt1sDL9o6Q@mail.gmail.com>

All,

I'm trying to get mailman up and running, using Apache as the web
server, and I appear to have run into a fundamental and insoluble
problem.

Now, please be gentle with me, it's a good 15 years since I last used
Linux servers in anger, and I am very far from being an expert with
Apache configuration, so there may be a very dumb question coming up.

I have the mailman lists working correctly, I can subscribe to lists,
send messages, and so on.  However, I have the apparently widespread
problem that the admin web pages just silently ignore commands.

Reading through this list, I see that this is apparently due to the
ScriptAlias redirection just silently dumping the data content of HTTP
POST requests.  Which seems a bit odd to me, but what do I know?

The standard installation of mailman uses the following httpd conf directives:

ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/
<Directory /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/>
    AllowOverride None
    Options ExecCGI
    Require all granted
</Directory>

This makes sense to me, redirecting calls to /mailman/<cgiscript>
through to the directory in which those scripts are installed.  But if
the standard package setup uses HTTP POST, and ScriptAlias dumps HTTP
POST data, how could this ever work?

The documentation says that the Exec directive can be used as an
alternative, which would seem to side-step this problem, but I cannot
find the Exec directive anywhere in the Apache documentation.

Can anyone provide a sample config that works, please?  I'm thoroughly
confused, and none of the threads I've found on this list show any
kind of full solution.

Regards,
        Geoff

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec  9 11:51:05 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 08:51:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Apache ScriptAlias and POST
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzfc78h9x_QtVGo=J3FUD6C5ysRUNmxObh96XQt1sDL9o6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAArSzfc78h9x_QtVGo=J3FUD6C5ysRUNmxObh96XQt1sDL9o6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <165acf39-c710-7cc1-3b95-b2248918e684@msapiro.net>

On 12/9/19 3:42 AM, Geoff Campbell wrote:
> 
> Reading through this list, I see that this is apparently due to the
> ScriptAlias redirection just silently dumping the data content of HTTP
> POST requests.  Which seems a bit odd to me, but what do I know?


It is due to redirection losing POST data, but the culprit is not
ScriptAlias. It is whatever you have in your Apache config that
redirects http to https.

> 
> Can anyone provide a sample config that works, please?  I'm thoroughly
> confused, and none of the threads I've found on this list show any
> kind of full solution.


I don't know why you couldn't find the answer in the archives. I'm suere
it's there many times. The solution is in Mailman. You need to arange
for form action URLs to be https, not http.

See the FAQ article at <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030602> for links to
more info. In particular, see steps 2. and 3. at
<https://wiki.list.org/x/17892007>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From geoff.campbell at internetworking.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 16:25:38 2019
From: geoff.campbell at internetworking.co.uk (Geoff Campbell)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 21:25:38 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Apache ScriptAlias and POST
In-Reply-To: <165acf39-c710-7cc1-3b95-b2248918e684@msapiro.net>
References: <CAArSzfc78h9x_QtVGo=J3FUD6C5ysRUNmxObh96XQt1sDL9o6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <165acf39-c710-7cc1-3b95-b2248918e684@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAArSzfciYRmT627y_Jn2m++990u=Kjr+XFcmWk6nQ-wB1OPE6g@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

> It is due to redirection losing POST data, but the culprit is not
> ScriptAlias. It is whatever you have in your Apache config that
> redirects http to https.

Ah, interesting.

> I don't know why you couldn't find the answer in the archives.

Well, I think the answer there is that there are many different
answers, all giving multiple paths to a solution, and I got routed off
down the incorrect little rat-hole.

Thanks for the pointers, I'll work through them in the morning but I
suspect the configuration I want is easily available from them now
that I have your pointers, having had a quick glance through.

Regards,
          Geoff

From geoff.campbell at internetworking.co.uk  Tue Dec 10 07:03:57 2019
From: geoff.campbell at internetworking.co.uk (Geoff Campbell)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 12:03:57 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Apache ScriptAlias and POST
In-Reply-To: <CAArSzfciYRmT627y_Jn2m++990u=Kjr+XFcmWk6nQ-wB1OPE6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAArSzfc78h9x_QtVGo=J3FUD6C5ysRUNmxObh96XQt1sDL9o6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <165acf39-c710-7cc1-3b95-b2248918e684@msapiro.net>
 <CAArSzfciYRmT627y_Jn2m++990u=Kjr+XFcmWk6nQ-wB1OPE6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAArSzffUmF1uR-EgGeJofHKRP_n-PFDk5_Pg7p=PjhBG+8Yd1g@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Thanks very much for your pointer, the addition of a
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN as per the article you linked to solved my problem
immediately.

Regards,
        Geoff

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 at 21:25, Geoff Campbell
<geoff.campbell at internetworking.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> > It is due to redirection losing POST data, but the culprit is not
> > ScriptAlias. It is whatever you have in your Apache config that
> > redirects http to https.
>
> Ah, interesting.
>
> > I don't know why you couldn't find the answer in the archives.
>
> Well, I think the answer there is that there are many different
> answers, all giving multiple paths to a solution, and I got routed off
> down the incorrect little rat-hole.
>
> Thanks for the pointers, I'll work through them in the morning but I
> suspect the configuration I want is easily available from them now
> that I have your pointers, having had a quick glance through.
>
> Regards,
>           Geoff

From rabin505 at sasktel.net  Mon Dec  9 12:33:53 2019
From: rabin505 at sasktel.net (rabin505 at sasktel.net)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2019 12:33:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New to Mailman 2.1.23 - group e-mails arriving as
 spam...
In-Reply-To: <165acf39-c710-7cc1-3b95-b2248918e684@msapiro.net>
References: <CAArSzfc78h9x_QtVGo=J3FUD6C5ysRUNmxObh96XQt1sDL9o6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <165acf39-c710-7cc1-3b95-b2248918e684@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1575912833.6kuwr6qbqc4kw0sw@webmail.sasktel.net>

Apologies in advance for the noobness, but I've searched the archives and googled this issue, but I'm hoping some experience can maybe see what I'm missing.  This is the first Mailman list I've set up, but since I've already gone live I'm struggling to find a solution so I figured I better reach out...

Backstory:? Migrating a list from yahoogroups to Mailman 2.1.23.? List is up and running and tested great with 2-3 people, but found that I had to have it set to Wrap Message or it went into my spam folder.? (I assume it's this setting that appends messages as attachments on some mail systems?)? Toggling this back to "Munge to" setting sends it to spam.? ? Selecting No sends it to spam folder.? But when set to "Wrap message" it does not send it to spam, which leads me to think it's got to be something else in the settings I don't have correct.? (Rather than it coming from a blacklisted source?)

E-mails from this list are arriving fine as well so I'm hoping to figure out what would be a known good list of general settings, as well as digest and non-digest settings so that I can at least eliminate them.

I've been searching for a known good Mailman settings to start off with, but to no avail.? If anyone knows of some known? good documentation so that I can at least eliminate how I've set the list up I'd be very grateful.? My google-fu is usually pretty good, but I've not had any luck so far.

Usergroup I'm migrating has just over 1500 members and only some of us were seeing messages as attachments when I had it set to wrap message, but I'm hoping to find that sweet spot so that it works properly for all.

Thanks,

Rabin
http://list.canam-peugeot.com/listinfo.cgi/peugeot-l-canam-peugeot.com

?

From rabin505 at sasktel.net  Mon Dec  9 14:02:54 2019
From: rabin505 at sasktel.net (rabin505 at sasktel.net)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2019 14:02:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Resolved Mostly): New to Mailman 2.1.23 - group
 e-mails arriving as spam...
In-Reply-To: <1575912833.6kuwr6qbqc4kw0sw@webmail.sasktel.net>
References: <CAArSzfc78h9x_QtVGo=J3FUD6C5ysRUNmxObh96XQt1sDL9o6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <165acf39-c710-7cc1-3b95-b2248918e684@msapiro.net>
 <1575912833.6kuwr6qbqc4kw0sw@webmail.sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <1575918174.qbdvt6o22osksw8s@webmail.sasktel.net>

As per usual I find the issue AFTER I send in the e-mail for help.  Turns out my ISP webmail client had a setting that ignored the safe sender list unless the bypass was checked off.? So now I can at least get messages and advise others on what to look for to resolve if they run into similar issues.

I would still be interested in seeing and documentation on a known good list configuration to ensure there isn't anything that makes e-mails more susceptible to spam filters.?

I'm still noodling around with set up, but at least my immediate issues appear to be resolved.

Thanks,

Rabin


On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 12:33:53 -0500, rabin505 at sasktel.net wrote:

>> Apologies in advance for the noobness, but I've searched the archives and googled this issue, but I'm hoping some experience can maybe see what I'm missing. This is the first Mailman list I've set up, but since I've already gone live I'm struggling to find a solution so I figured I better reach out...
>>
>> Backstory:? Migrating a list from yahoogroups to Mailman 2.1.23.? List is up and running and tested great with 2-3 people, but found that I had to have it set to Wrap Message or it went into my spam folder.? (I assume it's this setting that appends messages as attachments on some mail systems?)? Toggling this back to "Munge to" setting sends it to spam.? ? Selecting No sends it to spam folder.? But when set to "Wrap message" it does not send it to spam, which leads me to think it's got to be something else in the settings I don't have correct.? (Rather than it coming from a blacklisted source?)
>>
>> E-mails from this list are arriving fine as well so I'm hoping to figure out what would be a known good list of general settings, as well as digest and non-digest settings so that I can at least eliminate them.
>>
>> I've been searching for a known good Mailman settings to start off with, but to no avail.? If anyone knows of some known? good documentation so that I can at least eliminate how I've set the list up I'd be very grateful.? My google-fu is usually pretty good, but I've not had any luck so far.
>>
>> Usergroup I'm migrating has just over 1500 members and only some of us were seeing messages as attachments when I had it set to wrap message, but I'm hoping to find that sweet spot so that it works properly for all.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rabin
>> http://list.canam-peugeot.com/listinfo.cgi/peugeot-l-canam-peugeot.com

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Tue Dec 10 13:23:27 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:23:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Resolved Mostly): New to Mailman 2.1.23 - group
 e-mails arriving as spam...
In-Reply-To: <1575918174.qbdvt6o22osksw8s@webmail.sasktel.net>
References: <CAArSzfc78h9x_QtVGo=J3FUD6C5ysRUNmxObh96XQt1sDL9o6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <165acf39-c710-7cc1-3b95-b2248918e684@msapiro.net>
 <1575912833.6kuwr6qbqc4kw0sw@webmail.sasktel.net>
 <1575918174.qbdvt6o22osksw8s@webmail.sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <24047.58015.933555.495608@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

rabin505 at sasktel.net writes:

 > I would still be interested in seeing and documentation on a known
 > good list configuration to ensure

That doesn't exist.  Spam fighters generally believe their users would
rather lose mail than receive spam, and act aggressively on that
belief.  Some sites have worse problems, like leaking over 100 million
user address books, and they act even more aggressively.

Also, in general it's not the list configuration that triggers spam
filters.  It's general site reputation and message content.  I don't
know why your webmail likes Wrapped messages so much.

What you can do to protect your site's reputation:

1.  Check that your IP address is not in any DNS block lists.  If it
    is, sometimes you can request a new allocation.
2.  Spam filter mail incoming to Mailman aggressively.
3.  If you have human mail users on the host, or lots of services
    running, you might want to filter on outgoing mail as well.
4.  Use DKIM (and optionally SPF) to authenticate your outgoing
    messages.
5.  (Optionally) participate in DMARC (not terribly useful for a
    Mailman site usually).
6.  Use the ARC protocol to placate some sites (ARC usage is not
    universal yet, and AFAIK there are as yet no best practices for
    when to trust ARC-based claims of verified authentication).  ARC,
    like most of these protocols, is best implemented in the MTA.
    However, Mailman 3 does have an option to implement ARC in
    Mailman.  (This will probably not ever be backported to Mailman 2;
    for Mailman 2 ARC can only be implemented by your MTA.)

I'm not sure what to say about content.  My own site has obnoxiously
high rates for both false positives and false negatives, and I have
not been able to detect a pattern for these errors. :-(

Steve


From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Tue Dec 10 13:27:47 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:27:47 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <51EAAB9C-102B-47A2-89D3-F6F8F20B2142@rc.org>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
 <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <D0EA0512-4F46-4918-8B34-24D68B217E04@rc.org>
 <24045.51946.643356.59506@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <51EAAB9C-102B-47A2-89D3-F6F8F20B2142@rc.org>
Message-ID: <24047.58275.834081.459572@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Allan Hansen writes:

 > But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ?Previous
 > Recipients? list to help with auto-completion later.

I assume by "To" you mean "From".  We don't munge "To" in this
situation (there is a personalized list configuration where To is
changed from the list to the subscriber, but that shouldn't cause
client problems or DMARC issues).

I don't see how we can do anything reliable about that.  From is a
*required* field in RFC 5322 message syntax, and it *must* contain a
mailbox (perhaps along with a display name).  Some possibilities
follow.

We could stick a .invalid address in there, which would immediately
bounce back to the sender.  But that screws those users because the
client hides the address and we don't control the delivery service
notice in that case, it's the user's outgoing mail gateway that will
reject it.  Or possibly silently drop it.  So there's no guarantee
they'll get a message that makes any sense to them.  And if they
figure out the list is related, you'll take some heat.

We could put an "oopsie, did you mean to send to us" address at the
Mailman host in there that replies with explanation from Mailman, but
when you don't have the list in Reply-To, people who *intend* a reply
to list will have to copy/paste by hand (as mentioned earlier a link
in the footer will not have the features of a client-composed reply).
That might be OK for you, since you seem to really discourage replies
to list.

Another try would be a Rule that checks for the "via list-at-this-
server" formulation and automatically bounces the mail back
(regardless of any "don't at me" settings), with an explanation of why
the mail bounced and a suggestion to clean up Previous Recipients.
You could simulate this with the existing spam hold feature, but I'm
not sure that can be set to reject on a per recipe basis, and I don't
think it would allow for the explanation to differ across rejections.

Of course that will fail if the user changes the display name.  What
is your experience?  Do these users just accept the display name with
"via list" attached, or do they tend to fix it while failing to notice
the unintended address?  It sounds like this might be good enough,
possibly combined with a second Rule which looks for the list's
display name (and any variants popular with posters) and holds posts
that don't contain it for moderation.

(Note to me: Possibly the mail's entire content would need to be
scrubbed when bouncing but available at the archive as a .bin thingie
to avoid certain kinds of bounce spam.  And if so, it would need to be
removed in say 24 hours since it's almost certainly private.  Also
maybe a check for In-Reply-To/References could help identify likely
private mail?)

 > I do tell people to clean up their ?Previous Recipients? list, they
 > eventually forget and this happens again.

You're a hero!  But this sucks for you.  The point of an advanced list
manager is that you shouldn't have to do this kind of mechanical work.

Steve


From hansen at rc.org  Wed Dec 11 22:21:43 2019
From: hansen at rc.org (Allan Hansen)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 19:21:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <24047.58275.834081.459572@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
 <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <D0EA0512-4F46-4918-8B34-24D68B217E04@rc.org>
 <24045.51946.643356.59506@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <51EAAB9C-102B-47A2-89D3-F6F8F20B2142@rc.org>
 <24047.58275.834081.459572@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <14A00EF9-BB6C-494A-AD43-5CD557D1A323@rc.org>

On Dec 10, 2019, at 10:27 , Stephen J. Turnbull <turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

> 
> Allan Hansen writes:
> 
>> But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ?Previous
>> Recipients? list to help with auto-completion later.
> 
> I assume by "To" you mean "From?.

[ABH] Yes, sorry. It takes the ?From:? address and saves that, instead of the
?ReplyTo:? address that is the new ?To:? address.
> 
> I don't see how we can do anything reliable about that.  From is a
> *required* field in RFC 5322 message syntax, and it *must* contain a
> mailbox (perhaps along with a display name).  Some possibilities
> follow.

[ABH] The ?From:? should contain the author address, but if we want to
keep our Yahoo/AOL subscribers?

> We could put an "oopsie, did you mean to send to us" address at the
> Mailman host in there that replies with explanation from Mailman, but
> when you don't have the list in Reply-To, people who *intend* a reply
> to list will have to copy/paste by hand (as mentioned earlier a link
> in the footer will not have the features of a client-composed reply).
> That might be OK for you, since you seem to really discourage replies
> to list.

[ABH] That?s not a bad idea, Stephen. I could try that. And yes, we are very
protective of our lists, so ?Reply-To:? is the author address.
When I get Mailman 3 set up, I?ll put in an ?oopsie? address with
an auto-responder. I?ll assume that Mailman 3 will be able to detect
auto-responder infinite loops. :-)

> 
> Another try would be a Rule that checks for the "via list-at-this-
> server" formulation and automatically bounces the mail back
> (regardless of any "don't at me" settings), with an explanation of why
> the mail bounced and a suggestion to clean up Previous Recipients.
> You could simulate this with the existing spam hold feature, but I'm
> not sure that can be set to reject on a per recipe basis, and I don't
> think it would allow for the explanation to differ across rejections.
> 
> Of course that will fail if the user changes the display name.  What
> is your experience?  Do these users just accept the display name with
> "via list" attached, or do they tend to fix it while failing to notice
> the unintended address?  

[ABH] The disasters all have had the full mangled display name, so no editing
took place in those cases. I think the first suggestion above is better.

> 
>> I do tell people to clean up their ?Previous Recipients? list, they
>> eventually forget and this happens again.
> 
> You're a hero!  But this sucks for you.  The point of an advanced list
> manager is that you shouldn't have to do this kind of mechanical work.

[ABH] I?m trying to get out of it, as you can see. :-)

I very much appreciate your suggestions and help, and will let you 
and the list know how the autoresponder works out. I?m a bit red in the face
that I did not think of that, but what are friends for!

Yours

	Allan



From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Thu Dec 12 00:22:22 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 14:22:22 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?
In-Reply-To: <14A00EF9-BB6C-494A-AD43-5CD557D1A323@rc.org>
References: <87523BF5-B7D2-4767-A17A-B5490EBD4A7A@rc.org>
 <24043.46416.641378.92139@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <D0EA0512-4F46-4918-8B34-24D68B217E04@rc.org>
 <24045.51946.643356.59506@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <51EAAB9C-102B-47A2-89D3-F6F8F20B2142@rc.org>
 <24047.58275.834081.459572@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <14A00EF9-BB6C-494A-AD43-5CD557D1A323@rc.org>
Message-ID: <24049.52878.271732.745428@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Allan Hansen writes:

 > [ABH] The ?From:? should contain the author address, but if we want to
 > keep our Yahoo/AOL subscribers?

Exactly.  This is what we economists call the Theorem of the Second
Best: When it's already broken, sometimes the best you can do is to
break it harder.

 > [ABH] That?s not a bad idea, Stephen. I could try that. And yes, we are very
 > protective of our lists, so ?Reply-To:? is the author address.
 > When I get Mailman 3 set up, I?ll put in an ?oopsie? address with
 > an auto-responder. I?ll assume that Mailman 3 will be able to detect
 > auto-responder infinite loops. :-)

Without change to the Mailman code (Mailman 2 or Mailman 3), the
"oopsie" address will have to be handled by a separate autoresponder.
Mailman only knows about the standard addresses, and it doesn't allow
configuration of autoresponder features beyond "on" and "off".

 > I?m a bit red in the face that I did not think of that, but what
 > are friends for!

"Mail is hard, and then you retire."  From "The Sysadmin's Lament".
:-)

Steve

From kevin.t.bowen at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 14:21:40 2019
From: kevin.t.bowen at gmail.com (Kevin Bowen)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:21:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delete list while leaving archives available?
Message-ID: <CACHqquD=BEJ_w8JgDr1zNw7dBf6ARR1u4F=B96ps74U1K-Z=Nw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
Is there any way to delete a list (mailman 2.1.9) but leave its archives
available? I know that rmlist by default doesn't delete list archives, but
with the list no longer in existence, they're no longer viewable via the
web interface. Is there perhaps a way to just disable a list without
deleting it? It would need to be in a way which keeps the list's aliases
out of the alias file, not just disable delivery.

Kevin Bowen
kevin.t.bowen at gmail.com <kevin at ucsd.edu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 12 14:59:38 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:59:38 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delete list while leaving archives available?
In-Reply-To: <CACHqquD=BEJ_w8JgDr1zNw7dBf6ARR1u4F=B96ps74U1K-Z=Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACHqquD=BEJ_w8JgDr1zNw7dBf6ARR1u4F=B96ps74U1K-Z=Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f49cb05e-5121-a0d3-70a1-5efe83833bde@msapiro.net>

On 12/12/19 11:21 AM, Kevin Bowen wrote:
> Hello,
> Is there any way to delete a list (mailman 2.1.9) but leave its archives
> available? I know that rmlist by default doesn't delete list archives, but
> with the list no longer in existence, they're no longer viewable via the
> web interface. Is there perhaps a way to just disable a list without
> deleting it? It would need to be in a way which keeps the list's aliases
> out of the alias file, not just disable delivery.


As you seem to realize, if the archives are private, you need the list
for authentication.  If it is possible to make the archives public
before removing the list, then there should be no issue, but if there is
reason to keep them private, that isn't an option.

We've thought about an alternative CGI to 'private' that could
authenticate users some other way, but we've never implemented that.

As you also recognize, if you have automatic alias generation, there are
issues with removed aliases returning. This shouldn't happen with
ordinary list creation/deletion, but will occur if bin/genaliases is
run. Also with other MTA's like Exim or processes like
postfix_to_mailman.py, list delivery will occur unless you can change
the process to ignore delivery.

I think what I would do is leave the list in place, edit it's listinfo
page appropriately and patch the bounces, confirm, join, leave, owner,
post and request scripts in Mailman's scripts/ directory to treat the
list as non-existent. Also set the list subscribe_policy to Require
approval so people can't subscribe. and let the web UI remain so members
can change their passwords.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chromatest at chromatest.net  Thu Dec 12 12:46:14 2019
From: chromatest at chromatest.net (Chromatest J. Pantsmaker)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:46:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
Message-ID: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.  They're
non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to me, the
list owner which floods my inbox.

I'm looking at the page on how to use SpamAssassin:
https://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.23%20How%20do%20I%20use%20SpamAssassin%20with%20Mailman%3F?action=show


Is that the best way to do what I need?
If so, what's the best method to use in my case?
My system:
Mailman 2.1.20
Apache2 / 2.4.18
Postfix 3.1.0
Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS

From cpz at tuunq.com  Fri Dec 13 12:23:21 2019
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 09:23:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4030752a-1048-c157-7d60-cdc4804f3414@tuunq.com>

On 12/12/2019 9:46 AM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week. 

(What's a acceptable level? I wouldn't spend many hours just to eliminate 3 
spams a day.)

> Is that the best way to do what I need?

I'd go for #1, filtering at the MTA level, so that mailman generally has 
less to do, for some ideas-

https://www.howtoforge.com/spam-control-for-postfix
https://www.linuxbabe.com/mail-server/block-email-spam-postfix

By implementing some of these, you may decide that spam-assassin isn't 
necessary.

Later,

z!


From chromatest at chromatest.net  Fri Dec 13 12:52:51 2019
From: chromatest at chromatest.net (Chromatest J. Pantsmaker)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 10:52:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <4030752a-1048-c157-7d60-cdc4804f3414@tuunq.com>
References: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4030752a-1048-c157-7d60-cdc4804f3414@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <CADpm=3E2BNfKr2zWRqqLe8R7nj7EC-q5mdEC-c8F8ynK3tbE4g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the responses Carl and Bruce,

I've been getting about 20 per day.  Some days more.  The noise is way
higher than the signal level here.  It's a low-used email list.

I'll try out filtering at the MTA level and see how it goes.

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 10:34 AM Carl Zwanzig <cpz at tuunq.com> wrote:

> On 12/12/2019 9:46 AM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> > I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> > spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.
>
> (What's a acceptable level? I wouldn't spend many hours just to eliminate
> 3
> spams a day.)
>
> > Is that the best way to do what I need?
>
> I'd go for #1, filtering at the MTA level, so that mailman generally has
> less to do, for some ideas-
>
> https://www.howtoforge.com/spam-control-for-postfix
> https://www.linuxbabe.com/mail-server/block-email-spam-postfix
>
> By implementing some of these, you may decide that spam-assassin isn't
> necessary.
>
> Later,
>
> z!
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/chromatest%40chromatest.net
>

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Fri Dec 13 13:17:46 2019
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:17:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a49e000b-bdca-e669-2cb3-88f518a84d3c@Damon-Family.org>

On 12/12/19 12:46 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.  They're
> non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to me, the
> list owner which floods my inbox.
>
> I'm looking at the page on how to use SpamAssassin:
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.23%20How%20do%20I%20use%20SpamAssassin%20with%20Mailman%3F?action=show
>
>
> Is that the best way to do what I need?
> If so, what's the best method to use in my case?
> My system:
> Mailman 2.1.20
> Apache2 / 2.4.18
> Postfix 3.1.0
> Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS

If you can't get earlier filtering to get the rate low enough, you may
need to just change the option

Action to take for postings from non-members for which no explicit
action is defined.
(Details for generic_nonmember_action)
???
To discard so you don't get the messages (don't set it to reject or you
will be backscattering). It does say that you won't see messages that
should go to the list but the send used the wrong account.

-- 
Richard Damon


From cpz at tuunq.com  Fri Dec 13 14:03:21 2019
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 11:03:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <a49e000b-bdca-e669-2cb3-88f518a84d3c@Damon-Family.org>
References: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a49e000b-bdca-e669-2cb3-88f518a84d3c@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <fa7b7156-902d-b8f8-1a99-9db15d23232b@tuunq.com>

On 12/13/2019 10:17 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> To discard so you don't get the messages (don't set it to reject or you
> will be backscattering). It does say that you won't see messages that
> should go to the list but the send used the wrong account.

That's another good/final option, drop non-list-member email into the 
bit-bucket (or block hole if you prefer).

Later,

z!


From chromatest at chromatest.net  Fri Dec 13 14:07:56 2019
From: chromatest at chromatest.net (Chromatest J. Pantsmaker)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 12:07:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <a49e000b-bdca-e669-2cb3-88f518a84d3c@Damon-Family.org>
References: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a49e000b-bdca-e669-2cb3-88f518a84d3c@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <CADpm=3GVddzhEOoV4AzrAroCiR7NR4iOfcSuUDqq-DZ=etPhiw@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I wanted to avoid that because non-subscribers often email the list
trying to contact the list admins or organization representatives instead.
I've tried the first link above up through step 4.  Step 5 is adding an
additional filter to Spam Assassin and doesn't appear to be directly
connected to the first four steps.

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 11:18 AM Richard Damon <Richard at damon-family.org>
wrote:

> On 12/12/19 12:46 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> > I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> > spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.
> They're
> > non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to me,
> the
> > list owner which floods my inbox.
> >
> > I'm looking at the page on how to use SpamAssassin:
> >
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.23%20How%20do%20I%20use%20SpamAssassin%20with%20Mailman%3F?action=show
> >
> >
> > Is that the best way to do what I need?
> > If so, what's the best method to use in my case?
> > My system:
> > Mailman 2.1.20
> > Apache2 / 2.4.18
> > Postfix 3.1.0
> > Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS
>
> If you can't get earlier filtering to get the rate low enough, you may
> need to just change the option
>
> Action to take for postings from non-members for which no explicit
> action is defined.
> (Details for generic_nonmember_action)
>
> To discard so you don't get the messages (don't set it to reject or you
> will be backscattering). It does say that you won't see messages that
> should go to the list but the send used the wrong account.
>
> --
> Richard Damon
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/chromatest%40chromatest.net
>

From david at midrange.com  Fri Dec 13 16:41:54 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:41:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEStNXkbxo5f4+nk2jX-VSFAZt1a1rN=nT3SYCStDvXtsweVJg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 11:16 AM Chromatest J. Pantsmaker <
chromatest at chromatest.net> wrote:

> I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.  They're
> non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to me, the
> list owner which floods my inbox.


I use RBL?s and the Spamassassin milter  in Postfix with great success

David

> --
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise
money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can
make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by visiting
https://mideml.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive
donation map ... https://mideml.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!

From grschmidt at acm.org  Fri Dec 13 20:24:51 2019
From: grschmidt at acm.org (Gary R. Schmidt)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:24:51 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.712.1576264094.11496.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.712.1576264094.11496.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <b462a0a4-be01-8c69-eee3-c754f283ea8a@acm.org>

On 12/12/19 12:46 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
 > I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
 > spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week. 
They're
 > non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to 
me, the
 > list owner which floods my inbox.
 >
 > I'm looking at the page on how to use SpamAssassin:
 > 
https://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.23%20How%20do%20I%20use%20SpamAssassin%20with%20Mailman%3F?action=show
 >
 >
 > Is that the best way to do what I need?
 > If so, what's the best method to use in my case?
 > My system:
 > Mailman 2.1.20
 > Apache2 / 2.4.18
 > Postfix 3.1.0
 > Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS

With Postfix, you should activate the built-in SPAM control, "postscreen".

The details on how to use it are in POSTCSCREEN_README when you install 
from source, I don't where/if Ubuntu puts it, or if they build it for 
their distro, but it just works.  "man postscreen" should get you started.

I have it checking spamhaus.org, spamcop.net, and barracudacentral.org 
for blacklisting.

I sometimes add IP ranges to "/etc/postfix/postscreeen_access.cidr", 
(they've mainly been from Brazil, Korea, and China), when I notice a new 
source that the blacklists haven't yet found, blocking out vast swathes 
of the internet doesn't trouble me.

	Cheers,
		Gary	b-)

From chromatest at chromatest.net  Fri Dec 13 22:23:10 2019
From: chromatest at chromatest.net (Chromatest J. Pantsmaker)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 20:23:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <b462a0a4-be01-8c69-eee3-c754f283ea8a@acm.org>
References: <mailman.712.1576264094.11496.mailman-users@python.org>
 <b462a0a4-be01-8c69-eee3-c754f283ea8a@acm.org>
Message-ID: <CADpm=3GbtGzU6hP08qWjFQoor5qZnfzWDnaMhACitbqDnUYvGA@mail.gmail.com>

I think I'll look into this next.  It seems that the postgrey
implementation that I followed from a previous email has stopped the spam,
but it's also stopped all other mail also!  doh!

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 6:40 PM Gary R. Schmidt <grschmidt at acm.org> wrote:

> On 12/12/19 12:46 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
>  > I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem
> with
>  > spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.
> They're
>  > non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to
> me, the
>  > list owner which floods my inbox.
>  >
>  > I'm looking at the page on how to use SpamAssassin:
>  >
>
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.23%20How%20do%20I%20use%20SpamAssassin%20with%20Mailman%3F?action=show
>  >
>  >
>  > Is that the best way to do what I need?
>  > If so, what's the best method to use in my case?
>  > My system:
>  > Mailman 2.1.20
>  > Apache2 / 2.4.18
>  > Postfix 3.1.0
>  > Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS
>
> With Postfix, you should activate the built-in SPAM control, "postscreen".
>
> The details on how to use it are in POSTCSCREEN_README when you install
> from source, I don't where/if Ubuntu puts it, or if they build it for
> their distro, but it just works.  "man postscreen" should get you started.
>
> I have it checking spamhaus.org, spamcop.net, and barracudacentral.org
> for blacklisting.
>
> I sometimes add IP ranges to "/etc/postfix/postscreeen_access.cidr",
> (they've mainly been from Brazil, Korea, and China), when I notice a new
> source that the blacklists haven't yet found, blocking out vast swathes
> of the internet doesn't trouble me.
>
>         Cheers,
>                 Gary    b-)
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/chromatest%40chromatest.net
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 13 23:02:55 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 20:02:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3GbtGzU6hP08qWjFQoor5qZnfzWDnaMhACitbqDnUYvGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.712.1576264094.11496.mailman-users@python.org>
 <b462a0a4-be01-8c69-eee3-c754f283ea8a@acm.org>
 <CADpm=3GbtGzU6hP08qWjFQoor5qZnfzWDnaMhACitbqDnUYvGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3f809a2-aaf8-0b2a-ae5f-d5135cafaf7c@msapiro.net>

On 12/13/19 7:23 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> I think I'll look into this next.  It seems that the postgrey
> implementation that I followed from a previous email has stopped the spam,
> but it's also stopped all other mail also!  doh!


If postgrey is working as it should, it will initially respond to all
mail with a 4xx (retryable) status. The theory is spambots won't retry,
but legitimate MTAs will, usually after a delay of up to 15 minutes or
so, but some more than an hour.

As postgrey learns, it will remember triplets (sender, sending IP,
recipient) and not delay them and in addition will whitelist domains
that retry successfully more than a few times.

Thus, after time, the delayed mail will become less frequent.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chromatest at chromatest.net  Sat Dec 14 00:30:53 2019
From: chromatest at chromatest.net (Chromatest J. Pantsmaker)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 22:30:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <c3f809a2-aaf8-0b2a-ae5f-d5135cafaf7c@msapiro.net>
References: <mailman.712.1576264094.11496.mailman-users@python.org>
 <b462a0a4-be01-8c69-eee3-c754f283ea8a@acm.org>
 <CADpm=3GbtGzU6hP08qWjFQoor5qZnfzWDnaMhACitbqDnUYvGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c3f809a2-aaf8-0b2a-ae5f-d5135cafaf7c@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CADpm=3F1Axt-=41DTVV8EU88zgws4JA+u1m-LrURVD3NE8L2Mg@mail.gmail.com>

I had sent some test email from gmail and several hours later those test
messages didn't pass.  Maybe I goofed something along the way.

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 9:04 PM Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 12/13/19 7:23 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> > I think I'll look into this next.  It seems that the postgrey
> > implementation that I followed from a previous email has stopped the
> spam,
> > but it's also stopped all other mail also!  doh!
>
>
> If postgrey is working as it should, it will initially respond to all
> mail with a 4xx (retryable) status. The theory is spambots won't retry,
> but legitimate MTAs will, usually after a delay of up to 15 minutes or
> so, but some more than an hour.
>
> As postgrey learns, it will remember triplets (sender, sending IP,
> recipient) and not delay them and in addition will whitelist domains
> that retry successfully more than a few times.
>
> Thus, after time, the delayed mail will become less frequent.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/chromatest%40chromatest.net
>

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Sat Dec 14 12:22:55 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 02:22:55 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3F1Axt-=41DTVV8EU88zgws4JA+u1m-LrURVD3NE8L2Mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.712.1576264094.11496.mailman-users@python.org>
 <b462a0a4-be01-8c69-eee3-c754f283ea8a@acm.org>
 <CADpm=3GbtGzU6hP08qWjFQoor5qZnfzWDnaMhACitbqDnUYvGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c3f809a2-aaf8-0b2a-ae5f-d5135cafaf7c@msapiro.net>
 <CADpm=3F1Axt-=41DTVV8EU88zgws4JA+u1m-LrURVD3NE8L2Mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <24053.6767.491959.256633@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Chromatest J. Pantsmaker writes:

 > I had sent some test email from gmail and several hours later those
 > test messages didn't pass.  Maybe I goofed something along the way.

If the GMail address used to send is the same as the address
subscribed to the test list, you won't see it because GMail
deduplicates aggressively.  There is no way to fix this in GMail.  If
you are testing from GMail you *must* use a separate address as the
recipient.

Check the Mailman and the Postfix logs to see what your Mailman host
thinks is happening.

Steve

From weif at weif.net  Sat Dec 14 12:40:17 2019
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 10:40:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <24053.6767.491959.256633@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 (turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp)
Message-ID: <84tv62vm9q.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp> writes:

> Chromatest J. Pantsmaker writes:
>
>  > I had sent some test email from gmail and several hours later those
>  > test messages didn't pass.  Maybe I goofed something along the way.
>
> If the GMail address used to send is the same as the address
> subscribed to the test list, you won't see it because GMail
> deduplicates aggressively.  There is no way to fix this in GMail.  If
> you are testing from GMail you *must* use a separate address as the
> recipient.

Also, if you are testing greylisting from a GMail account, GMail tends
to retry messages from another random outgoing server, so it may take
considerable time before GMail happens to randomly pick an outgoing
server it has already used and greylisting can confirm the same message
from the same user at the same server... (It would be nice if GMail
would assign an outgoing message to one server and just retry from
there)

Keith

-- 
----
from my mac to yours...

Keith Seyffarth
mailto:weif at weif.net
https://www.weif.net/ - Home of the First Tank Guide!
https://www.rpgcalendar.net/ - the Montana Role-Playing Calendar
----
http://www.miscon.org/ - Montana's Longest Running Science Fiction Convention

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Sat Dec 14 12:26:20 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 10:26:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <c3f809a2-aaf8-0b2a-ae5f-d5135cafaf7c@msapiro.net>
References: <mailman.712.1576264094.11496.mailman-users@python.org>
 <b462a0a4-be01-8c69-eee3-c754f283ea8a@acm.org>
 <CADpm=3GbtGzU6hP08qWjFQoor5qZnfzWDnaMhACitbqDnUYvGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c3f809a2-aaf8-0b2a-ae5f-d5135cafaf7c@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <99358ede-2684-43e4-12a0-c80cbd082a77@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 12/13/19 9:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> As postgrey learns, it will remember triplets (sender, sending IP, 
> recipient) and not delay them and in addition will whitelist domains 
> that retry successfully more than a few times.

The bigger senders are doing things now (more than ever) that they 
weren't doing 15+ years ago.  Now farms of servers will try to contact 
you.  The message may first try from one IP, then from another IP, then 
from a 3rd....  It may eventually try from the same IP and make it through.

I think most grey list solutions have an option to specify the network 
(frequently configured a a /24) for the sending IP.  This significantly 
helps with different servers in the same server farm trying to resend 
messages.

Another option that doesn't have this (state based) limitation is 
nolisting.  (TCP RST from first MX and subsequent MX(s) accept email.)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From weif at weif.net  Sat Dec 14 16:29:18 2019
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 14:29:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <99358ede-2684-43e4-12a0-c80cbd082a77@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> (message
 from Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users on Sat, 14 Dec 2019 10:26:20 -0700)
Message-ID: <84r216vbo1.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>

Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users <mailman-users at python.org> writes:

> On 12/13/19 9:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> As postgrey learns, it will remember triplets (sender, sending IP, 
>> recipient) and not delay them and in addition will whitelist domains 
>> that retry successfully more than a few times.
>
> The bigger senders are doing things now (more than ever) that they 
> weren't doing 15+ years ago.  Now farms of servers will try to contact 
> you.  The message may first try from one IP, then from another IP, then 
> from a 3rd....  It may eventually try from the same IP and make it through.
>
> I think most grey list solutions have an option to specify the network 
> (frequently configured a a /24) for the sending IP.  This significantly 
> helps with different servers in the same server farm trying to resend 
> messages.

Some greylisting solutions also allow you to whitelist a domain or
subdomain, but this can result in spammers spoofing that domain getting
through...

Keith


-- 
----
from my mac to yours...

Keith Seyffarth
mailto:weif at weif.net
https://www.weif.net/ - Home of the First Tank Guide!
https://www.rpgcalendar.net/ - the Montana Role-Playing Calendar
----
http://www.miscon.org/ - Montana's Longest Running Science Fiction Convention

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sat Dec 14 16:45:56 2019
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 16:45:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <84r216vbo1.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
References: <84r216vbo1.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
Message-ID: <ad58ad90-dc9d-b318-7e7b-debc30f39d9d@Damon-Family.org>

On 12/14/19 4:29 PM, Keith Seyffarth wrote:
> Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users <mailman-users at python.org> writes:
>
>> On 12/13/19 9:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> As postgrey learns, it will remember triplets (sender, sending IP, 
>>> recipient) and not delay them and in addition will whitelist domains 
>>> that retry successfully more than a few times.
>> The bigger senders are doing things now (more than ever) that they 
>> weren't doing 15+ years ago.  Now farms of servers will try to contact 
>> you.  The message may first try from one IP, then from another IP, then 
>> from a 3rd....  It may eventually try from the same IP and make it through.
>>
>> I think most grey list solutions have an option to specify the network 
>> (frequently configured a a /24) for the sending IP.  This significantly 
>> helps with different servers in the same server farm trying to resend 
>> messages.
> Some greylisting solutions also allow you to whitelist a domain or
> subdomain, but this can result in spammers spoofing that domain getting
> through...
>
> Keith
>
>
Unless you only whitelist domains which use SPF, then SPF will catch the
spoofers.

-- 
Richard Damon


From cpm at well.com  Sat Dec 14 13:24:37 2019
From: cpm at well.com (Chip Mefford)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 10:24:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?
In-Reply-To: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADpm=3En1MZtk+r9FFsJWb-xUF1vewmhWyMh8HAVT2Oh9kduoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <839654429.181233.1576347877261.JavaMail.zimbra@well.com>


Good day all:

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chromatest J. Pantsmaker" <chromatest at chromatest.net>
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 12:46:14 PM
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

> I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.  They're
> non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to me, the
> list owner which floods my inbox.
>SNIP

just a fwiw:

years back, I ran a pretty fun mailman instance that handled a lot of internal
tasks, and was integrated into a doc management system, was glued to a few
ticket management systems, archived all of our accounting stuff, did hylafax, 
all kinds of fun tricky things

Of course, these internal lists got spammed all the time. 

as an email sysadmin, I had notifications turned off, and it was
part of the weekly checklist to log into the admin section of these lists
and clear out all of the moderation stuff. 

These seldom went over a few hundred per list per week, so it didn't actually take all that long. 
kind of a fri or mon morning-over-coffee task that I always suspected could be
automated, but in-the-end, was a thing that really was best handled by someone who
cared about 'delivering the mail' ! (aka, the postmaster's job). 

fwiw.
--chipper

From erudnitsky at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 12:55:36 2019
From: erudnitsky at gmail.com (Ethan Rudnitsky)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 10:55:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron job to reset member bounce value
Message-ID: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>

Can anyone tell me where the actual member bounce value is stored? I want
to setup a cron job to reset the member bounce value to 0 for
certain members whose mailboxes are only active when they have a satellite
overhead to give them internet connectivity (about 8-10 hours each day).
They keep getting disabled because their bounce value breaks the threshold
value but this cannot be avoided due to their location and lack of
internet. Thank you for your time and knowledge.

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 17 12:36:48 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:36:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron job to reset member bounce value
In-Reply-To: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <de462a9a-bce6-1b56-ec87-19136c6835ef@msapiro.net>

On 12/16/19 9:55 AM, Ethan Rudnitsky wrote:
> Can anyone tell me where the actual member bounce value is stored? I want
> to setup a cron job to reset the member bounce value to 0 for
> certain members whose mailboxes are only active when they have a satellite
> overhead to give them internet connectivity (about 8-10 hours each day).
> They keep getting disabled because their bounce value breaks the threshold
> value but this cannot be avoided due to their location and lack of
> internet. Thank you for your time and knowledge.


The score is in the member's _BounceInfo object defined in
Mailman/Bouncer.py. This object is retrieved and set by the list's
getBounceInfo() and setBounceInfo() methods defined in the MemberAdaptor
(Mailman/OldStyleMemberships.py by default).

However, See the script at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/clear_bounce_info.py> (mirrored at
<https://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/clear_bounce_info.py>) which will
do what you want.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cpz at tuunq.com  Tue Dec 17 12:38:57 2019
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:38:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron job to reset member bounce value
In-Reply-To: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46b02d5b-9ce5-e3be-3296-2f73216bef5c@tuunq.com>

On 12/16/2019 9:55 AM, Ethan Rudnitsky wrote:
> Can anyone tell me where the actual member bounce value is stored? I want
> to setup a cron job to reset the member bounce value to 0 for
> certain members whose mailboxes are only active when they have a satellite
> overhead to give them internet connectivity (about 8-10 hours each day).
> They keep getting disabled because their bounce value breaks the threshold
> value but this cannot be avoided due to their location and lack of
> internet.

Sounds like a work-around to the real problem- that one of the MTA in the 
delivery chain is not properly retrying the message. In general, most MTAs 
are configured to retry for at least 24 hours and sometimes as long as 5 
days before returning a fatal bounce, so if a destination server is 
off-line, the sending one will try again in an hour or so.

Which error code(s) are you seeing? Some 400 codes are designed to be 
retried later whereas 500's are immediately fatal.

Later,

z!

From erudnitsky at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 12:45:37 2019
From: erudnitsky at gmail.com (Ethan Rudnitsky)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 10:45:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron job to reset member bounce value
In-Reply-To: <46b02d5b-9ce5-e3be-3296-2f73216bef5c@tuunq.com>
References: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <46b02d5b-9ce5-e3be-3296-2f73216bef5c@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <CAJHMGXiuUDHK5uJ5eu5Cmhhvtt1fTWQrrMNtuYus4YASBnP0Qg@mail.gmail.com>

Mark and Carl,

Thank you both for your replies. So there are actually 2 issues causing
bounces here... the first is the mailbox being offline at times, and the
second is that it is getting messages bounced because of message size being
over the limit. A few of these same accounts have strict 50KB message
limits because they get their connectivity via Iridium modems, so when
someone sends a message greater than 50KB it is bouncing. I have just
utilized one of Mark's scripts and created a cron job in the crontab.in
file at /usr/lib/mailman/cron that is formatted as follows: 0 8 * * *
mailman /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -a -r reset_bounce -- -u
manager at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u comms at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u cargo at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx

I then restarted the mailman service. Does this to be properly formatted
for targeting only the 3 specific member accounts I want?

Thank you both for your time!

-Ethan

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 10:39 AM Carl Zwanzig <cpz at tuunq.com> wrote:

> On 12/16/2019 9:55 AM, Ethan Rudnitsky wrote:
> > Can anyone tell me where the actual member bounce value is stored? I want
> > to setup a cron job to reset the member bounce value to 0 for
> > certain members whose mailboxes are only active when they have a
> satellite
> > overhead to give them internet connectivity (about 8-10 hours each day).
> > They keep getting disabled because their bounce value breaks the
> threshold
> > value but this cannot be avoided due to their location and lack of
> > internet.
>
> Sounds like a work-around to the real problem- that one of the MTA in the
> delivery chain is not properly retrying the message. In general, most MTAs
> are configured to retry for at least 24 hours and sometimes as long as 5
> days before returning a fatal bounce, so if a destination server is
> off-line, the sending one will try again in an hour or so.
>
> Which error code(s) are you seeing? Some 400 codes are designed to be
> retried later whereas 500's are immediately fatal.
>
> Later,
>
> z!
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/erudnitsky%40gmail.com
>

From cpz at tuunq.com  Tue Dec 17 12:56:00 2019
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:56:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron job to reset member bounce value
In-Reply-To: <CAJHMGXiuUDHK5uJ5eu5Cmhhvtt1fTWQrrMNtuYus4YASBnP0Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <46b02d5b-9ce5-e3be-3296-2f73216bef5c@tuunq.com>
 <CAJHMGXiuUDHK5uJ5eu5Cmhhvtt1fTWQrrMNtuYus4YASBnP0Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0af18a93-1c54-eddd-54cb-d74f72f4d4a4@tuunq.com>

On 12/17/2019 9:45 AM, Ethan Rudnitsky wrote:
> So there are actually 2 issues causing
> bounces here... the first is the mailbox being offline at times, and the
> second is that it is getting messages bounced because of message size being
> over the limit. 

Sounds like the -server- (aka 'MTA') is offline, and those messages should 
be retried; if they're not being retried, something is generally wrong and 
resetting the bounce counts is only masking that problem.


> A few of these same accounts have strict 50KB message
> limits because they get their connectivity via Iridium modems, so when
> someone sends a message greater than 50KB it is bouncing.

Another option is to create a size-limited list and add that to the main 
list. Or just add a size limit to the existing list.... unless you're 
sending pictures or large files, most things can be said in under 50kb :) 
(and IMHO there are better ways of distributing larger files than email).

Later,

z!

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 17 13:13:39 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 10:13:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron job to reset member bounce value
In-Reply-To: <CAJHMGXiuUDHK5uJ5eu5Cmhhvtt1fTWQrrMNtuYus4YASBnP0Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <46b02d5b-9ce5-e3be-3296-2f73216bef5c@tuunq.com>
 <CAJHMGXiuUDHK5uJ5eu5Cmhhvtt1fTWQrrMNtuYus4YASBnP0Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <828f44d2-02ce-ce06-e52d-a38bec92c9f6@msapiro.net>

On 12/17/19 9:45 AM, Ethan Rudnitsky wrote:
> Mark and Carl,
> 
> Thank you both for your replies. So there are actually 2 issues causing
> bounces here... the first is the mailbox being offline at times, and the
> second is that it is getting messages bounced because of message size being
> over the limit. A few of these same accounts have strict 50KB message
> limits because they get their connectivity via Iridium modems, so when
> someone sends a message greater than 50KB it is bouncing. I have just
> utilized one of Mark's scripts and created a cron job in the crontab.in
> file at /usr/lib/mailman/cron that is formatted as follows: 0 8 * * *
> mailman /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -a -r reset_bounce -- -u
> manager at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u comms at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u cargo at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
> 
> I then restarted the mailman service. Does this to be properly formatted
> for targeting only the 3 specific member accounts I want?


Carl raises some good points, but to answer your specific question, I
don't know what if anything your distro's Mailman package does with
/usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in, but if it copies it automagically to
/etc/cron.d/mailman, then putting the command there is OK.

The bottom line is if your Mailman cron jobs are in a system crontab
such as /etc/cron.d/mailman, you want the line

> 0 8 * * * mailman /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -a -r reset_bounce -- -u manager at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u comms at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u cargo at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx

in that file. If your Mailman cron jobs are in the Mailman user's
crontab /var/spool/cron/crontabs/mailman, you need to omit the username
as in

> 0 8 * * * /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -a -r reset_bounce -- -u manager at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u comms at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u cargo at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


You also need to have copied the script to
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/reset_bounce.py

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From erudnitsky at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 13:24:41 2019
From: erudnitsky at gmail.com (Ethan Rudnitsky)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:24:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron job to reset member bounce value
In-Reply-To: <828f44d2-02ce-ce06-e52d-a38bec92c9f6@msapiro.net>
References: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <46b02d5b-9ce5-e3be-3296-2f73216bef5c@tuunq.com>
 <CAJHMGXiuUDHK5uJ5eu5Cmhhvtt1fTWQrrMNtuYus4YASBnP0Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <828f44d2-02ce-ce06-e52d-a38bec92c9f6@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAJHMGXg2wHSCVFm4qY3ZTu54GytGLXnPQN2Yis_fo3TTbuE-YA@mail.gmail.com>

Mark and Carl,

Thanks again for the replies.

Carl, the issue with the server/MTA bring offline is a known and
unavoidable issue because of lack of satellite availability overhead for
most of the day unfortunately. Regarding the mail size limit, those
messages are ones that are really quite small (talking like 500kb) but
still go over the 50kb limit of the mailbox. It is definitely a system that
we are looking to replace but the geographic location and limited satellite
coverage leave us with few options.

Mark, I have confirmed that the crontab.in does automatically copy
/etc/cron.d/mailman, and /var/spool/cron/ is empty. I did also initially
copy the reset_bounce.py to the directory you mentioned, so thank you for
your diligence in checking, sir!

I guess we'll see how it behaves and how it goes. Thanks again; I really
appreciate it.

-Ethan

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 11:14 AM Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 12/17/19 9:45 AM, Ethan Rudnitsky wrote:
> > Mark and Carl,
> >
> > Thank you both for your replies. So there are actually 2 issues causing
> > bounces here... the first is the mailbox being offline at times, and the
> > second is that it is getting messages bounced because of message size
> being
> > over the limit. A few of these same accounts have strict 50KB message
> > limits because they get their connectivity via Iridium modems, so when
> > someone sends a message greater than 50KB it is bouncing. I have just
> > utilized one of Mark's scripts and created a cron job in the crontab.in
> > file at /usr/lib/mailman/cron that is formatted as follows: 0 8 * * *
> > mailman /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -a -r reset_bounce -- -u
> > manager at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u comms at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u
> cargo at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
> >
> > I then restarted the mailman service. Does this to be properly formatted
> > for targeting only the 3 specific member accounts I want?
>
>
> Carl raises some good points, but to answer your specific question, I
> don't know what if anything your distro's Mailman package does with
> /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in, but if it copies it automagically to
> /etc/cron.d/mailman, then putting the command there is OK.
>
> The bottom line is if your Mailman cron jobs are in a system crontab
> such as /etc/cron.d/mailman, you want the line
>
> > 0 8 * * * mailman /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -a -r reset_bounce -- -u
> manager at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u comms at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u
> cargo at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
>
> in that file. If your Mailman cron jobs are in the Mailman user's
> crontab /var/spool/cron/crontabs/mailman, you need to omit the username
> as in
>
> > 0 8 * * * /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -a -r reset_bounce -- -u
> manager at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u comms at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx -u
> cargo at xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
>
>
> You also need to have copied the script to
> /usr/lib/mailman/bin/reset_bounce.py
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/erudnitsky%40gmail.com
>

From cpz at tuunq.com  Tue Dec 17 13:34:16 2019
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 10:34:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron job to reset member bounce value
In-Reply-To: <CAJHMGXg2wHSCVFm4qY3ZTu54GytGLXnPQN2Yis_fo3TTbuE-YA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <46b02d5b-9ce5-e3be-3296-2f73216bef5c@tuunq.com>
 <CAJHMGXiuUDHK5uJ5eu5Cmhhvtt1fTWQrrMNtuYus4YASBnP0Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <828f44d2-02ce-ce06-e52d-a38bec92c9f6@msapiro.net>
 <CAJHMGXg2wHSCVFm4qY3ZTu54GytGLXnPQN2Yis_fo3TTbuE-YA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9496f5ac-9013-ee3d-6163-b5ca99934952@tuunq.com>

On 12/17/2019 10:24 AM, Ethan Rudnitsky wrote:
>   the issue with the server/MTA bring offline is a known and
> unavoidable issue because of lack of satellite availability overhead for
> most of the day unfortunately.

That is an entirely avoidable issue. When a destination MTA is offline/busy 
(which happens all the time and is accounted-for in SMTP), the sending MTA 
usually queues the messages and retries in 15/30/120 minutes, and usually 
keeps that up for at least 24 hours. If the sending MTA is giving up 
immediately and returning a failure, IMHO it's misconfigured (knowing the 
exact error code returned is important, here).

That said, the operator(s) of that server may not be interested in fixing 
the problem.

Do the satellite-served list members receive every message eventually or are 
they content to only receive ones sent during their connectivity window?
  If the -do- get all the messages eventually then they are being retried 
and the temporary failure is being counted as a bounce.

Later,

z!

From erudnitsky at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 16:28:47 2019
From: erudnitsky at gmail.com (Ethan Rudnitsky)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:28:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron job to reset member bounce value
In-Reply-To: <9496f5ac-9013-ee3d-6163-b5ca99934952@tuunq.com>
References: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <46b02d5b-9ce5-e3be-3296-2f73216bef5c@tuunq.com>
 <CAJHMGXiuUDHK5uJ5eu5Cmhhvtt1fTWQrrMNtuYus4YASBnP0Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <828f44d2-02ce-ce06-e52d-a38bec92c9f6@msapiro.net>
 <CAJHMGXg2wHSCVFm4qY3ZTu54GytGLXnPQN2Yis_fo3TTbuE-YA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9496f5ac-9013-ee3d-6163-b5ca99934952@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <CAJHMGXi=ECCAirvBJXPyiFPV=hqBUm2jtXfukx=DOOAHtrtJVA@mail.gmail.com>

Carl, my apologies as I see what you are saying now. The server is indeed
retrying instead of giving up right away, so they do receive the messages
eventually but the retries are being counted as a bounce.

Mark, when I run your get_bounce_info script I do get an output of the
current score for each member in each list, but when I manually run
"./withlist -a -r reset_bounce --" it returns "Importing reset_bounce..."
[newline] "Running reset_bounce.reset_bounce()... and it then lists all of
the lists on each line as it goes through them and appends each with an
(unlocked) and then says Finalizing. However, if I run the get_bounce_info
again, nothing is reset to 0 bounces, it lists the same thing as before. So
I guess I need clarification, will this only reset bounce counts for
members who are already/currently locked, or is it supposed to reset the
count back to 0 even if they are unlocked and below the threshold?

Thank you, sir.

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 11:34 AM Carl Zwanzig <cpz at tuunq.com> wrote:

> On 12/17/2019 10:24 AM, Ethan Rudnitsky wrote:
> >   the issue with the server/MTA bring offline is a known and
> > unavoidable issue because of lack of satellite availability overhead for
> > most of the day unfortunately.
>
> That is an entirely avoidable issue. When a destination MTA is
> offline/busy
> (which happens all the time and is accounted-for in SMTP), the sending MTA
> usually queues the messages and retries in 15/30/120 minutes, and usually
> keeps that up for at least 24 hours. If the sending MTA is giving up
> immediately and returning a failure, IMHO it's misconfigured (knowing the
> exact error code returned is important, here).
>
> That said, the operator(s) of that server may not be interested in fixing
> the problem.
>
> Do the satellite-served list members receive every message eventually or
> are
> they content to only receive ones sent during their connectivity window?
>   If the -do- get all the messages eventually then they are being retried
> and the temporary failure is being counted as a bounce.
>
> Later,
>
> z!
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 17 18:49:14 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 15:49:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cron job to reset member bounce value
In-Reply-To: <CAJHMGXi=ECCAirvBJXPyiFPV=hqBUm2jtXfukx=DOOAHtrtJVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJHMGXhV70tbf=WvBn=97Om1voUswYGFy2iyfbdNy9RHy_2rHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <46b02d5b-9ce5-e3be-3296-2f73216bef5c@tuunq.com>
 <CAJHMGXiuUDHK5uJ5eu5Cmhhvtt1fTWQrrMNtuYus4YASBnP0Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <828f44d2-02ce-ce06-e52d-a38bec92c9f6@msapiro.net>
 <CAJHMGXg2wHSCVFm4qY3ZTu54GytGLXnPQN2Yis_fo3TTbuE-YA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9496f5ac-9013-ee3d-6163-b5ca99934952@tuunq.com>
 <CAJHMGXi=ECCAirvBJXPyiFPV=hqBUm2jtXfukx=DOOAHtrtJVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c7072f14-2d51-7d83-2528-21bd96e4692d@msapiro.net>

On 12/17/19 1:28 PM, Ethan Rudnitsky wrote:
> Carl, my apologies as I see what you are saying now. The server is indeed
> retrying instead of giving up right away, so they do receive the messages
> eventually but the retries are being counted as a bounce.


If the message delayed DSNs or whatever they are are being scored as
bounces by Mailman, this is a bug. Please send me one of the bounce
messages you receive that increments the score or disables the member.
You get these by setting bounce_notify_owner_on_disable and if your
Mailman is new enough (>=2.1.19) bounce_notify_owner_on_bounce_increment
on the Bounce Processing page in the web admin UI.

Send the full, raw message as attached to the notice or the full, raw
notice, and I will try to update the recognizer to recognize it as
non-fatal.


> Mark, when I run your get_bounce_info script I do get an output of the
> current score for each member in each list, but when I manually run
> "./withlist -a -r reset_bounce --" it returns "Importing reset_bounce..."
> [newline] "Running reset_bounce.reset_bounce()... and it then lists all of
> the lists on each line as it goes through them and appends each with an
> (unlocked) and then says Finalizing. However, if I run the get_bounce_info
> again, nothing is reset to 0 bounces, it lists the same thing as before. So
> I guess I need clarification, will this only reset bounce counts for
> members who are already/currently locked, or is it supposed to reset the
> count back to 0 even if they are unlocked and below the threshold?

You seem to have picked the wrong script, and I didn't notice in my
follow-up. The reset_bounce script will re-enable delivery for all
members with delivery already disabled by bounce. It will not reset
scores for members not yet disabled. This is probably not what you want.
The script you want is one that resets the current bounce info and score
for members with current bounce info but not yet disabled. That script
is <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/clear_bounce_info.py> (mirrored at
<https://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/clear_bounce_info.py>.

All of the

Importing reset_bounce...
Running reset_bounce.reset_bounce()...
 and it then lists all of the lists on each line as it goes through them
and appends each with an (unlocked) and then says
Finalizing

output comes from withlist as it imports the script and runs it against
the lists.

The scripts themselves produce no output unless you specify the -v
option (after the --) in which case they just print a count of the
number of users affected.

The -v output for clear_bounce info is

List <listname>: Cleared bounce info for <nn> members.

and for reset_bounce it is

List <listname>: Reset <nn> bouncing members.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From hansen at rc.org  Sun Dec 29 16:27:19 2019
From: hansen at rc.org (Allan Hansen)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 13:27:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3.0 Documentation
Message-ID: <ABB59673-0159-4123-896A-1F18320AB448@rc.org>

All,

I have spent some time now trying to understand the list admin interface to Mailman 3.0. There is no context-sensitive help and looking around at the Mailman sites, I mostly find instructions on how to install Mailman 3.0, but no documentation on using it (other than for end users - which is much improved over MM2).

I also looked in the FAQ. Is there such docs and, if so, where can I find them. It?s about terminology and how to mangle the headers, etc.

Oh, and a big thanks to Brian Carpenter of EMWD for his help installing MM3, as I ran into a wall in my own attempt. MM3 appears to be a big end-user improvement over MM2. Thanks also, developers, for the work on MM3 development. I can see that it was a mountain of work to get that done.

Yours,

	Allan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 31 23:30:40 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 20:30:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3.0 Documentation
In-Reply-To: <ABB59673-0159-4123-896A-1F18320AB448@rc.org>
References: <ABB59673-0159-4123-896A-1F18320AB448@rc.org>
Message-ID: <c468013d-9a6f-b379-7947-38f2d730bdd3@msapiro.net>

On 12/29/19 1:27 PM, Allan Hansen wrote:
> All,
> 
> I have spent some time now trying to understand the list admin interface to Mailman 3.0. There is no context-sensitive help and looking around at the Mailman sites, I mostly find instructions on how to install Mailman 3.0, but no documentation on using it (other than for end users - which is much improved over MM2).
> 
> I also looked in the FAQ. Is there such docs and, if so, where can I find them. It?s about terminology and how to mangle the headers, etc.


Unfortunately, there are currently no list admin docs for Postorius
other than the Postorius UI itself.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan