From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar  1 12:15:09 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 09:15:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <da89750f-6422-65bd-f371-4f59f66d7696@proasyl.de>
References: <da89750f-6422-65bd-f371-4f59f66d7696@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <91f4d028-4bd9-cb0a-d422-bd2f1127ce4b@msapiro.net>

On 2/28/19 5:26 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
> Hi everybody,
> 
> a few weeks ago I upgraded from 2.1.16 (as far as I can remember...) to
> 2.1.29. Everything seemed to work fine at first. But then I found out
> that a lot of posts - actually far more than half of them - aren't
> archived any longer. What logging the errors tells me is this:
> 
> Feb 28 12:29:02 2019 (3123) Uncaught runner exception: 'ascii' codec
> can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26: ordinal not in range(128)
> Feb 28 12:29:02 2019 (3123) Traceback (most recent call last):
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
> ??? self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
> ??? keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 77, in _dispose
> ??? mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 216, in
> ArchiveMail
> ??? h.processUnixMailbox(f)
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 596, in
> processUnixMailbox
> ??? self.add_article(a)
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 640, in
> add_article
> ??? author = fixAuthor(article.decoded['author'])
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 63, in
> fixAuthor
> ??? while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or [error message stops right
> here]
> 
> As I read in a previous thread the reason for this may be non-ascii
> compliant characters in the post, especially the "from:"-line. But why
> would Python or Mailman now all of a sudden use ASCII instead of UTF-8
> in the first place? And if so: How can I change that behaviour?


Yes, this is due to non-ascii in the display name portion of the From:
header. I'm investigating a fix, but I'm not sure if this is an RFC 2047
encoded header or if the raw header contains non-ascii. If the latter,
the message is non-compliant - RFC 5321 and predecessors require all raw
headers to contain only ascii characters.


As far as "all of a sudden use ASCII" is concerned. Mailman's character
set for English has always been ascii, and for German, iso-8859-1.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar  1 22:01:21 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 19:01:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] User doesn't get added to mailinglist
In-Reply-To: <e55e0a99-777f-1345-cce9-68249662f1f1@msapiro.net>
References: <85025549-1251-40c7-4e6c-826f4d26fa2b@hostpoint.ch>
 <3f721b0a-c539-a19e-c5c8-f0743b9cf32c@msapiro.net>
 <45768f2d-96bd-ad1c-81d3-2f359ca5feeb@hostpoint.ch>
 <79d73ad9-1a00-86be-2250-9be06381f195@msapiro.net>
 <d2bd2a65-dbed-71be-ebdf-c4c44a065037@hostpoint.ch>
 <52b0abcd-f82e-24d2-c9f8-011f6fb2487c@msapiro.net>
 <b46ddff3-c4d6-e38f-5eca-f34fba76cace@hostpoint.ch>
 <6f7a9332-b22b-f0e1-c3a7-d78df88035a5@msapiro.net>
 <a3feac0d-a7ec-ada5-1c0a-998efe8a851a@hostpoint.ch>
 <faa32cbb-8026-8227-9ec3-77a06e5771a4@msapiro.net>
 <10df0a02-92b6-93de-7fab-63bca75957f6@hostpoint.ch>
 <7eeb6409-1e94-2a24-66af-c6836bba9380@msapiro.net>
 <1c446cc7-3d92-3e06-2a72-8fb40a51ab21@hostpoint.ch>
 <0584ca79-cf46-0b9a-f1be-ceb50bb568f1@hostpoint.ch>
 <e55e0a99-777f-1345-cce9-68249662f1f1@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <6ca170dd-8f65-dd89-2bb4-32780dc8d871@msapiro.net>

On 2/14/19 10:11 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/14/19 7:13 AM, Pascal Christen wrote:
>>
>> Ok I got it. I've just reviewed the patch
>> (https://launchpadlibrarian.net/379908276/patch.txt) for CVE-2018-13796
>> and found that line:
>>
>> +            longest = max([len(x) for x in list_names()])
>>
>>
>> So at every request it gets ALL lists and saves the length of the
>> longest list into "longest". This works well if you have 1 list, but
>> what if you have about 10'000? Not very well guys :D


I have done two things which are committed at
<https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1807>
I changed the code to call list_names() only once instead of twice, and
I implemented a MAX_LISTNAME_LENGTH setting which if set > 0 is taken as
the longest list name and avoids calling list_names() at all.

I'd still like to understand what the underlying issue is if it's not
just a browser time out.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar  2 00:00:55 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 21:00:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <91f4d028-4bd9-cb0a-d422-bd2f1127ce4b@msapiro.net>
References: <da89750f-6422-65bd-f371-4f59f66d7696@proasyl.de>
 <91f4d028-4bd9-cb0a-d422-bd2f1127ce4b@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <0f2faa41-80e1-2a31-d958-6517288cea12@msapiro.net>

On 3/1/19 9:15 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/28/19 5:26 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> a few weeks ago I upgraded from 2.1.16 (as far as I can remember...) to
>> 2.1.29. Everything seemed to work fine at first. But then I found out
>> that a lot of posts - actually far more than half of them - aren't
>> archived any longer. What logging the errors tells me is this:
>>
>> Feb 28 12:29:02 2019 (3123) Uncaught runner exception: 'ascii' codec
>> can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26: ordinal not in range(128)
>> Feb 28 12:29:02 2019 (3123) Traceback (most recent call last):
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
>> ??? self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
>> ??? keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 77, in _dispose
>> ??? mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 216, in
>> ArchiveMail
>> ??? h.processUnixMailbox(f)
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 596, in
>> processUnixMailbox
>> ??? self.add_article(a)
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 640, in
>> add_article
>> ??? author = fixAuthor(article.decoded['author'])
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 63, in
>> fixAuthor
>> ??? while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or [error message stops right
>> here]
>>
>> As I read in a previous thread the reason for this may be non-ascii
>> compliant characters in the post, especially the "from:"-line. But why
>> would Python or Mailman now all of a sudden use ASCII instead of UTF-8
>> in the first place? And if so: How can I change that behaviour?
> 
> 
> Yes, this is due to non-ascii in the display name portion of the From:
> header. I'm investigating a fix, but I'm not sure if this is an RFC 2047
> encoded header or if the raw header contains non-ascii. If the latter,
> the message is non-compliant - RFC 5321 and predecessors require all raw
> headers to contain only ascii characters.
> 
> 
> As far as "all of a sudden use ASCII" is concerned. Mailman's character
> set for English has always been ascii, and for German, iso-8859-1.
> 


I am unable to duplicate this with 3 tests: a message with non-ascii
utf-8 characters in the display name in a raw From:, a message with
non-ascii iso-8859-1 characters in the display name in a raw From: and a
message with non-ascii iso-8859-1 characters in an RFC 2047 encoded
display name in From:.

All 3 messages were archived on an English language list. The display
name in the archive for the first case was garbled, i.e. the separate
bytes of the utf-8 encoding were shown rather than the character they
represented. Other than that, there were no issues with the archive.

Further, I examined the diff of all the archiver modules between 2.1.16
and 2.1.29 and also between 2.1.15 and 2.1.29, and I see nothing that
seems relevant to this exception.

To try to diagnose this further, you could try:

=== modified file 'Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py'
--- Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2018-05-03 21:23:47 +0000
+++ Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2019-03-02 04:51:23 +0000
@@ -60,9 +60,12 @@
     else:
         # Mixed case; assume that small parts of the last name will be
         # in lowercase, and check them against the list.
-        while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
-                       L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
-            i = i - 1
+        try:
+            while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
+                           L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
+                i = i - 1
+        except:
+            syslog('error', 'Exception in fixAuthor: %s', author)
     author = SPACE.join(L[-1:] + L[i:-1]) + ', ' + SPACE.join(L[:i])
     return author


and see what gets logged in Mailman's error log and what the archived
message looks like
-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mailmanu-20190215 at billmail.scconsult.com  Fri Mar  1 23:58:35 2019
From: mailmanu-20190215 at billmail.scconsult.com (Bill Cole)
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2019 23:58:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trying to secure the list server web page
In-Reply-To: <8f1823ec-b6fa-fc38-f6c0-8876ba468b24@msapiro.net>
References: <mailman.0.1551200401.9688.mailman-users@python.org>
 <SN6PR09MB29425DF88C5956B990A24C4CF1740@SN6PR09MB2942.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
 <82d99835-15be-1765-4197-01fc6477a7cc@midrange.com>
 <SN6PR09MB29428BC0B96544A6F21839DDF1740@SN6PR09MB2942.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
 <8f1823ec-b6fa-fc38-f6c0-8876ba468b24@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <D4E1F141-4FB6-4E96-9BE8-2501490189E6@billmail.scconsult.com>

On 27 Feb 2019, at 11:58, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> On 2/27/19 8:48 AM, Jeffrey Westgate wrote:
>> Confession first -- I touch this server so seldom because it just 
>> runs... and I inherited it many moon orbits ago.
>>
>>
>> The setting I needed was actually in the Defaults.py, and not in the 
>> mm_cfg.py. And it was http.  I did the change, pushed it out, and 
>> we're back in fine form again.
>
>
> First, never change Defaults.py. Put overrides in mm_cfg.py. See
> <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030588>.
>
> Also, for your original question, see all the steps at
> <https://wiki.list.org/x/17892007>.

Also note: if you do this on a machine managed by cPanel, you will need 
to redo the last step ($prefix/bin/withlist -l -r fix_url) daily after 
the nightly maintenance cron job, which reverts whatever fix_url does. 
There is an open bug at cPanel (opened last week) to fix that.

-- 
Bill Cole
bill at scconsult.com or billcole at apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Available For Hire: https://linkedin.com/in/billcole

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar  2 17:20:14 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 14:20:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <0f2faa41-80e1-2a31-d958-6517288cea12@msapiro.net>
References: <da89750f-6422-65bd-f371-4f59f66d7696@proasyl.de>
 <91f4d028-4bd9-cb0a-d422-bd2f1127ce4b@msapiro.net>
 <0f2faa41-80e1-2a31-d958-6517288cea12@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <3489d0ca-8a02-5c8e-d02d-fb0e66f33b70@msapiro.net>

On 3/1/19 9:00 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> To try to diagnose this further, you could try:
> 
> === modified file 'Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py'
> --- Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2018-05-03 21:23:47 +0000
> +++ Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2019-03-02 04:51:23 +0000
> @@ -60,9 +60,12 @@
>      else:
>          # Mixed case; assume that small parts of the last name will be
>          # in lowercase, and check them against the list.
> -        while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
> -                       L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
> -            i = i - 1
> +        try:
> +            while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
> +                           L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
> +                i = i - 1
> +        except:
> +            syslog('error', 'Exception in fixAuthor: %s', author)
>      author = SPACE.join(L[-1:] + L[i:-1]) + ', ' + SPACE.join(L[:i])
>      return author
> 
> 
> and see what gets logged in Mailman's error log and what the archived
> message looks like
> 


Also, in your original post you posted


> Feb 28 12:29:02 2019 (3123) Uncaught runner exception: 'ascii' codec
> can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26: ordinal not in range(128)
> Feb 28 12:29:02 2019 (3123) Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
>     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
>     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 77, in _dispose
>     mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 216, in
> ArchiveMail
>     h.processUnixMailbox(f)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 596, in
> processUnixMailbox
>     self.add_article(a)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 640, in
> add_article
>     author = fixAuthor(article.decoded['author'])
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 63, in
> fixAuthor
>     while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or [error message stops right
> here]

Following that in the log there should be two more lines, one describing
the UnicodeDecodeError exception and one referring to the message being
shunted and pointing to a qfiles/shunt/*.pck file. You can see the
contents of that file with either Mailman's bin/show_qfiles or
bin/dumpdb commands and the From: header in the message may give more info.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From ls at proasyl.de  Wed Mar  6 05:03:52 2019
From: ls at proasyl.de (Lothar Schilling)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 11:03:52 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <3489d0ca-8a02-5c8e-d02d-fb0e66f33b70@msapiro.net>
References: <da89750f-6422-65bd-f371-4f59f66d7696@proasyl.de>
 <91f4d028-4bd9-cb0a-d422-bd2f1127ce4b@msapiro.net>
 <0f2faa41-80e1-2a31-d958-6517288cea12@msapiro.net>
 <3489d0ca-8a02-5c8e-d02d-fb0e66f33b70@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <eba49c51-5da4-a4f9-aa3d-62a0655101c1@proasyl.de>

Thank you and sorry for my belated answer. Was out of office for a few
days, carneval season in Germany...

Am 02.03.2019 um 23:20 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> On 3/1/19 9:00 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> To try to diagnose this further, you could try:
>>
>> === modified file 'Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py'
>> --- Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2018-05-03 21:23:47 +0000
>> +++ Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2019-03-02 04:51:23 +0000
>> @@ -60,9 +60,12 @@
>>      else:
>>          # Mixed case; assume that small parts of the last name will be
>>          # in lowercase, and check them against the list.
>> -        while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
>> -                       L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
>> -            i = i - 1
>> +        try:
>> +            while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
>> +                           L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
>> +                i = i - 1
>> +        except:
>> +            syslog('error', 'Exception in fixAuthor: %s', author)
>>      author = SPACE.join(L[-1:] + L[i:-1]) + ', ' + SPACE.join(L[:i])
>>      return author
>>
>>
>> and see what gets logged in Mailman's error log and what the archived
>> message looks like
>>
Following your instruction errors get now logged like this (where x is
lower case, X upper case alphabet).

Mar 06 10:36:56 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: Kxx Wxxx
Mar 06 10:36:56 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: NXX - Fx?xxxxxxx XX
x.X.
Mar 06 10:36:57 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: Fx?xxxxxxxx
Tx?xxxxxxx x.X.
Mar 06 10:36:57 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: RXX x.X.

The missing characters ? are German "Umlaute".

The messages have now been archived and look ok, not mutilated anyhow.
But of course they are still stuck in qfiles/shunt

> Also, in your original post you posted
>
>
>> Feb 28 12:29:02 2019 (3123) Uncaught runner exception: 'ascii' codec
>> can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26: ordinal not in range(128)
>> Feb 28 12:29:02 2019 (3123) Traceback (most recent call last):
>>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
>>     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
>>     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 77, in _dispose
>>     mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
>>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 216, in
>> ArchiveMail
>>     h.processUnixMailbox(f)
>>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 596, in
>> processUnixMailbox
>>     self.add_article(a)
>>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 640, in
>> add_article
>>     author = fixAuthor(article.decoded['author'])
>>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 63, in
>> fixAuthor
>>     while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or [error message stops right
>> here]
> Following that in the log there should be two more lines, one describing
> the UnicodeDecodeError exception and one referring to the message being
> shunted and pointing to a qfiles/shunt/*.pck file. You can see the
> contents of that file with either Mailman's bin/show_qfiles or
> bin/dumpdb commands and the From: header in the message may give more info.
>
As for the "From: headers", some appear distorted, some don't:

From: =?UTF-8?Q?Lxxxx_M=c3=bcxxxx?= <xx at xxx-xxxxxxx.xxxg>
From: Kxx Wxxxx <xx at xxx-xxxxxxx.xxx>

From danjde at msw.it  Wed Mar  6 13:22:10 2019
From: danjde at msw.it (Davide Marchi)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 19:22:10 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailing list "Mailman" mandatory?
Message-ID: <31c690c5bbb0cca137e32fd4ac8a9d80@msw.it>

Hi Friends, and excuse me for my silly question!

I've read from a non official documentation, here: 
https://www.howtoforge.com/how-to-install-and-configure-mailman-with-postfix-on-debian-squeeze
that "Before we can start to use Mailman, we must create a mailing list 
called mailman; this is obligatory - without it Mailman won't start:"

is this information right?
Or is it mandatory to start up Mailman and then (after the new lists 
creation) it can be removed?



Many thanks and excuse again!




Davide




From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar  6 13:50:55 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 10:50:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailing list "Mailman" mandatory?
In-Reply-To: <31c690c5bbb0cca137e32fd4ac8a9d80@msw.it>
References: <31c690c5bbb0cca137e32fd4ac8a9d80@msw.it>
Message-ID: <143071fb-527d-90ab-955c-9c473b17765e@msapiro.net>

On 3/6/19 10:22 AM, Davide Marchi wrote:
> Hi Friends, and excuse me for my silly question!
> 
> I've read from a non official documentation, here:
> https://www.howtoforge.com/how-to-install-and-configure-mailman-with-postfix-on-debian-squeeze
> 
> that "Before we can start to use Mailman, we must create a mailing list
> called mailman; this is obligatory - without it Mailman won't start:"
> 
> is this information right?
> Or is it mandatory to start up Mailman and then (after the new lists
> creation) it can be removed?


Mailman 2.1 requires the site list, normally named 'mailman'. In a new
installation, you need to create this list before you can start Mailman.
Typically, you create it with Mailman's bin/newlist command.

And no, you can't remove it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at mailmanlists.net  Wed Mar  6 17:55:19 2019
From: mark at mailmanlists.net (Mark Dale)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2019 09:55:19 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus mail to list from JavaMail.yahoo
Message-ID: <0185d774-995e-b9d7-6dec-66cfc72448f4@mailmanlists.net>

Hi All,

This may be a Postfix issue rather than a Mailman one, but the Mailman
post log (snip below) is showing some relevant info, so here goes.

This morning there was a legitimate post to a list from a subscriber
with a Gmail account.

Shortly after, there was a deluge of bogus posts (one every minute)
repeating the same email to the list purporting to come from the same
address.

The Mailman "post" logs below show the original at 13:43 with the
google.com ID, and the following bogus messages all with a yahoo.com ID

This appears to be happening to only the one list on the server.

If anyone could shed some light on this, or point me in the right
direction, it'd be much appreciated.

Regards,
Mark


Mar 06 13:43:12 2019 (21321) post to redacted-listname from
john.citizen at gmail.com, size=18763,
message-id=<0000000000000aa0c9058371592c at google.com>, success

Mar 06 13:44:09 2019 (21321) post to redacted-listname from
john.citizen at gmail.com, size=16906,
message-id=<1951431589.1505.1551897769010.JavaMail.yahoo at tardis008.cal.bf1.yahoo.com>,
success

Mar 06 13:45:09 2019 (21321) post to redacted-listname from
john.citizen at gmail.com, size=16896,
message-id=<1838256988.2441.1551897771539.JavaMail.yahoo at tardis064.cal.bf1.yahoo.com>,
success

Mar 06 13:46:06 2019 (21321) post to redacted-listname from
john.citizen at gmail.com, size=16889,
message-id=<574641303.2211.1551897775604.JavaMail.yahoo at tardis001.cal.bf1.yahoo.com>,
success

... and on and on ...

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar  6 19:02:59 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 16:02:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bogus mail to list from JavaMail.yahoo
In-Reply-To: <0185d774-995e-b9d7-6dec-66cfc72448f4@mailmanlists.net>
References: <0185d774-995e-b9d7-6dec-66cfc72448f4@mailmanlists.net>
Message-ID: <62584570-fc83-096b-81e4-522179abb041@msapiro.net>

On 3/6/19 2:55 PM, Mark Dale wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> This may be a Postfix issue rather than a Mailman one, but the Mailman
> post log (snip below) is showing some relevant info, so here goes.
> 
> This morning there was a legitimate post to a list from a subscriber
> with a Gmail account.
> 
> Shortly after, there was a deluge of bogus posts (one every minute)
> repeating the same email to the list purporting to come from the same
> address.

Look in your mail logs and see where these posts come from and anything
else you can see. Also look in the list's
archives/private/redacted-listname.mbox/redacted-listname.mbox file at
all the headers from these posts.

I suspect some list member has some process that's echoing received
posts back to the list. It's not a simple .forward because that would
preserve the X-BeenThere: header which would prevent the message from
being reposted.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From danjde at msw.it  Thu Mar  7 15:23:31 2019
From: danjde at msw.it (Davide Marchi)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2019 21:23:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailing list "Mailman" mandatory?
Message-ID: <093100e554437ab8a1a38ca57e074edf@msw.it>

mailman-users-request at python.org ha scritto:
> On 3/6/19 10:22 AM, Davide Marchi wrote:
>> Hi Friends, and excuse me for my silly question!
>> 
>> I've read from a non official documentation, here:
>> https://www.howtoforge.com/how-to-install-and-configure-mailman-with-postfix-on-debian-squeeze
>> 
>> that "Before we can start to use Mailman, we must create a mailing 
>> list
>> called mailman; this is obligatory - without it Mailman won't start:"
>> 
>> is this information right?
>> Or is it mandatory to start up Mailman and then (after the new lists
>> creation) it can be removed?
> 
> Mailman 2.1 requires the site list, normally named 'mailman'. In a new
> installation, you need to create this list before you can start 
> Mailman.
> Typically, you create it with Mailman's bin/newlist command.
> 
> And no, you can't remove it.

Well!
Anyway, only just to prevent mistakes from our new members (that are not 
really technicians..),
could you suggest me how is it possible to hide it from the list web 
page?


Thanks again


Davide Marchi






-- 
cosmogoniAcosmogoniA logo
n o p r o v a r e n o f a r e o n o n f a r e n o n c e p r o v a r e


From danjde at msw.it  Thu Mar  7 15:36:07 2019
From: danjde at msw.it (Davide Marchi)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2019 21:36:07 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How auto create Postfix virtual aliases on MySQL
 table
Message-ID: <6b87193a21ee3fca9b44037f3176b89e@msw.it>

Hi Friends,
We have a Postfix mail server on Debian Stretch, where all virtual user 
and virtual aliases are stored on MySQL tables.
I would like to know if Mailman could provide its creation in automatic 
or alternatively is there a configuration file that provides the 
execution of a script at the end of every new list generation?
so as not to lose the changes to each update?


Many many thanks!



Davide Marchi



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar  7 15:40:02 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2019 12:40:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailing list "Mailman" mandatory?
In-Reply-To: <093100e554437ab8a1a38ca57e074edf@msw.it>
References: <093100e554437ab8a1a38ca57e074edf@msw.it>
Message-ID: <1fa7488f-400e-efac-d02c-c7616ec0efee@msapiro.net>

On 3/7/19 12:23 PM, Davide Marchi wrote:

> Anyway, only just to prevent mistakes from our new members (that are not
> really technicians..),
> could you suggest me how is it possible to hide it from the list web page?


You can not display it on the listinfo and admin web overview pages by
setting it's Privacy options... -> Subscription rules -> advertised
setting to No.

However the listinfo overview page will still say

If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact
mailman at example.com.

and the admin overview will say

(Send questions and comments to mailman at example.com.)

Changing that address would require modifying the code.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar  7 15:56:27 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2019 12:56:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How auto create Postfix virtual aliases on
 MySQL table
In-Reply-To: <6b87193a21ee3fca9b44037f3176b89e@msw.it>
References: <6b87193a21ee3fca9b44037f3176b89e@msw.it>
Message-ID: <9d5146e3-cad6-2a30-661d-4ec99669c7a0@msapiro.net>

On 3/7/19 12:36 PM, Davide Marchi wrote:
> Hi Friends,
> We have a Postfix mail server on Debian Stretch, where all virtual user
> and virtual aliases are stored on MySQL tables.
> I would like to know if Mailman could provide its creation in automatic
> or alternatively is there a configuration file that provides the
> execution of a script at the end of every new list generation?
> so as not to lose the changes to each update?


Assuming you are talking about Mailman 2.1 (this is a MM 2.1 list), and
assuming You have Postfix/Mailman integration set up as in sections
6.1.1 and 6.1.2 of the installation manual
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node12.html>, every time a list is
created or removed, Mailman runs the commands defined by default as:

POSTFIX_ALIAS_CMD = '/usr/sbin/postalias'
POSTFIX_MAP_CMD = '/usr/sbin/postmap'

to update the .db files for Mailman's data/aliases and data/virtual-mailman

You can set these in mm_cfg.py to point to any script you want to read
the files and do whatever you need.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar  7 17:54:13 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2019 14:54:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <eba49c51-5da4-a4f9-aa3d-62a0655101c1@proasyl.de>
References: <da89750f-6422-65bd-f371-4f59f66d7696@proasyl.de>
 <91f4d028-4bd9-cb0a-d422-bd2f1127ce4b@msapiro.net>
 <0f2faa41-80e1-2a31-d958-6517288cea12@msapiro.net>
 <3489d0ca-8a02-5c8e-d02d-fb0e66f33b70@msapiro.net>
 <eba49c51-5da4-a4f9-aa3d-62a0655101c1@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <a172219c-66cc-eb55-d824-c68e79530636@msapiro.net>

On 3/6/19 2:03 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:

> Following your instruction errors get now logged like this (where x is
> lower case, X upper case alphabet).
> 
> Mar 06 10:36:56 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: Kxx Wxxx
> Mar 06 10:36:56 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: NXX - Fx?xxxxxxx XX
> x.X.
> Mar 06 10:36:57 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: Fx?xxxxxxxx
> Tx?xxxxxxx x.X.
> Mar 06 10:36:57 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: RXX x.X.
> 
> The missing characters ? are German "Umlaute".
> 
> The messages have now been archived and look ok, not mutilated anyhow.
> But of course they are still stuck in qfiles/shunt


The files in qfiles/shunt are the messages that were shunted before you
applied the patch.

You can now reprocess them and add them to the archive by running
Mailman's 'bin/unshunt' command.

I would still like to find the underlying issue. I have been unable to
duplicate it locally. I would appreciate it if before you run
bin/unshunt, you could copy a few of the .pck files aside and send them
to me off-list.

Also, is the preferred language for this list English or German or
something else?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From ls at proasyl.de  Fri Mar  8 03:05:47 2019
From: ls at proasyl.de (Lothar Schilling)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 09:05:47 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <a172219c-66cc-eb55-d824-c68e79530636@msapiro.net>
References: <da89750f-6422-65bd-f371-4f59f66d7696@proasyl.de>
 <91f4d028-4bd9-cb0a-d422-bd2f1127ce4b@msapiro.net>
 <0f2faa41-80e1-2a31-d958-6517288cea12@msapiro.net>
 <3489d0ca-8a02-5c8e-d02d-fb0e66f33b70@msapiro.net>
 <eba49c51-5da4-a4f9-aa3d-62a0655101c1@proasyl.de>
 <a172219c-66cc-eb55-d824-c68e79530636@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <38f1b704-1658-43d2-950b-b110d42bb2f5@proasyl.de>

Am 07.03.2019 um 23:54 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> On 3/6/19 2:03 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
>
>> Following your instruction errors get now logged like this (where x is
>> lower case, X upper case alphabet).
>>
>> Mar 06 10:36:56 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: Kxx Wxxx
>> Mar 06 10:36:56 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: NXX - Fx?xxxxxxx XX
>> x.X.
>> Mar 06 10:36:57 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: Fx?xxxxxxxx
>> Tx?xxxxxxx x.X.
>> Mar 06 10:36:57 2019 (16870) Exception in fixAuthor: RXX x.X.
>>
>> The missing characters ? are German "Umlaute".
>>
>> The messages have now been archived and look ok, not mutilated anyhow.
>> But of course they are still stuck in qfiles/shunt
> The files in qfiles/shunt are the messages that were shunted before you
> applied the patch.
>
> You can now reprocess them and add them to the archive by running
> Mailman's 'bin/unshunt' command.
Oh, that's what I did, unshunting them. They were processed and
archived. But the messages - almost 1.000 - are still queued. Should/can
I safely delete them?
> I would still like to find the underlying issue. I have been unable to
> duplicate it locally. I would appreciate it if before you run
> bin/unshunt, you could copy a few of the .pck files aside and send them
> to me off-list.
Will send some .pck files to your private address. Some may hold content
which is not meant to be publicly available, they are for your eyes only :-)
>
> Also, is the preferred language for this list English or German or
> something else?
It's several lists, and the preferred language is always German.

From danjde at msw.it  Fri Mar  8 05:26:10 2019
From: danjde at msw.it (Davide Marchi)
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2019 11:26:10 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailing list "Mailman" mandatory?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1630.1552032354.24666.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.1630.1552032354.24666.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <dd15be40e87055fb6c0e88a6f85dd1b1@msw.it>

> 
> On 3/7/19 12:23 PM, Davide Marchi wrote:
> 
>> Anyway, only just to prevent mistakes from our new members (that are 
>> not
>> really technicians..),
>> could you suggest me how is it possible to hide it from the list web 
>> page?
> 
> You can not display it on the listinfo and admin web overview pages by
> setting it's Privacy options... -> Subscription rules -> advertised
> setting to No.
> 
> However the listinfo overview page will still say
> 
> If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact
> mailman at example.com.
> 
> and the admin overview will say
> 
> (Send questions and comments to mailman at example.com.)
> 
> Changing that address would require modifying the code.
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 

Well, very thanks Mark, this solve my "big" problem! :-D

Thanks again!

Davide



From danjde at msw.it  Fri Mar  8 05:46:19 2019
From: danjde at msw.it (Davide Marchi)
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2019 11:46:19 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How auto create Postfix virtual aliases on
 MySQL table
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1630.1552032354.24666.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.1630.1552032354.24666.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <3867de7f3fda8c4efec52ceca8775322@msw.it>

> On 3/7/19 12:36 PM, Davide Marchi wrote:
>> Hi Friends,
>> We have a Postfix mail server on Debian Stretch, where all virtual 
>> user
>> and virtual aliases are stored on MySQL tables.
>> I would like to know if Mailman could provide its creation in 
>> automatic
>> or alternatively is there a configuration file that provides the
>> execution of a script at the end of every new list generation?
>> so as not to lose the changes to each update?
> 
> Assuming you are talking about Mailman 2.1 (this is a MM 2.1 list), and
> assuming You have Postfix/Mailman integration set up as in sections
> 6.1.1 and 6.1.2 of the installation manual
> <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node12.html>, every time a list is
> created or removed, Mailman runs the commands defined by default as:
> 
> POSTFIX_ALIAS_CMD = '/usr/sbin/postalias'
> POSTFIX_MAP_CMD = '/usr/sbin/postmap'
> 
> to update the .db files for Mailman's data/aliases and 
> data/virtual-mailman
> 
> You can set these in mm_cfg.py to point to any script you want to read
> the files and do whatever you need.
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 

Yes, I'm are talking about Mailman 2.1, excuse me for not having 
declared it!
I've found very useful your your suggestions, now I will do some tests 
..

may thanks!

Davide





From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar  8 11:17:15 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 08:17:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <38f1b704-1658-43d2-950b-b110d42bb2f5@proasyl.de>
References: <da89750f-6422-65bd-f371-4f59f66d7696@proasyl.de>
 <91f4d028-4bd9-cb0a-d422-bd2f1127ce4b@msapiro.net>
 <0f2faa41-80e1-2a31-d958-6517288cea12@msapiro.net>
 <3489d0ca-8a02-5c8e-d02d-fb0e66f33b70@msapiro.net>
 <eba49c51-5da4-a4f9-aa3d-62a0655101c1@proasyl.de>
 <a172219c-66cc-eb55-d824-c68e79530636@msapiro.net>
 <38f1b704-1658-43d2-950b-b110d42bb2f5@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <7f3f0048-883b-19b4-90c8-66f646055093@msapiro.net>

On 3/8/19 12:05 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
> Am 07.03.2019 um 23:54 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
>>
>> You can now reprocess them and add them to the archive by running
>> Mailman's 'bin/unshunt' command.
> Oh, that's what I did, unshunting them. They were processed and
> archived. But the messages - almost 1.000 - are still queued. Should/can
> I safely delete them?

Normally, bin/unshunt removes the .pck files from the shunt queue and
requeues them to the original queue. If they reappear in qfiles/shunt/
it's because reprocessing them threw another exception. There should be
error messages in Mailman's error log with tracebacks and "shunting"
messages.  Are there such messages and if so, what are they. Also, do
the files in qfiles/shunt have new timestamps?


>> I would still like to find the underlying issue. I have been unable to
>> duplicate it locally. I would appreciate it if before you run
>> bin/unshunt, you could copy a few of the .pck files aside and send them
>> to me off-list.
> Will send some .pck files to your private address. Some may hold content
> which is not meant to be publicly available, they are for your eyes only :-)


Thank you. I will treat them confidentially.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar  8 14:21:47 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 11:21:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <7f3f0048-883b-19b4-90c8-66f646055093@msapiro.net>
References: <da89750f-6422-65bd-f371-4f59f66d7696@proasyl.de>
 <91f4d028-4bd9-cb0a-d422-bd2f1127ce4b@msapiro.net>
 <0f2faa41-80e1-2a31-d958-6517288cea12@msapiro.net>
 <3489d0ca-8a02-5c8e-d02d-fb0e66f33b70@msapiro.net>
 <eba49c51-5da4-a4f9-aa3d-62a0655101c1@proasyl.de>
 <a172219c-66cc-eb55-d824-c68e79530636@msapiro.net>
 <38f1b704-1658-43d2-950b-b110d42bb2f5@proasyl.de>
 <7f3f0048-883b-19b4-90c8-66f646055093@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <b957c1ed-7f7d-5720-852d-8195bd121947@msapiro.net>

On 3/8/19 8:17 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 3/8/19 12:05 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
>> Am 07.03.2019 um 23:54 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> 
>>> I would still like to find the underlying issue. I have been unable to
>>> duplicate it locally. I would appreciate it if before you run
>>> bin/unshunt, you could copy a few of the .pck files aside and send them
>>> to me off-list.
>> Will send some .pck files to your private address. Some may hold content
>> which is not meant to be publicly available, they are for your eyes only :-)
> 
> 
> Thank you. I will treat them confidentially.


I have set up a test wherein I symlinked the qfiles path from the
metadata in the shunted .pck files to the qfiles directory in the test
installation, created the 5 lists that the shunted messages were
destined to with preferred language = German and unshunted the 5 messages.

The test Mailman is the head of the
https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1 branch, but this
differs from the 2.1.29 release in minor ways, none of which have to do
with archiving.

Each of the unshunted messages was properly archived with no exceptions
being thrown and qfiles/shunt/ was empty after unshunting.

I then removed the 5 lists and started over, this time with

ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = No

which is the only setting I see offhand that might affect this, but the
result was the same, no error.

Also, I note that some of the shunted messages had no non-ascii in From:

I don't know what's going on in your installation, but I can't duplicate
the issue. It may have something to do with list configuration or your
German message catalog or templates if you have any changes in that area
(i.e. any templates/site/de/* templates/HOST_NAME/de/* or
templates/lists/LIST_NAME/de/* files not properly encoded as
iso-8859-1). It could also be something in the
archives/private/LIST_NAME/database/* files, although this would
probably only affect the period in which you upgraded.

In order to go any further with this, I'd need to see complete error and
traceback information from Mailman's error log for the recently shunted
messages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From ls at proasyl.de  Tue Mar 12 05:37:21 2019
From: ls at proasyl.de (Lothar Schilling)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 10:37:21 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <786d3705-8e5b-b41f-246a-a8b98d8e7afe@proasyl.de>
References: <786d3705-8e5b-b41f-246a-a8b98d8e7afe@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <b7e76af2-714c-c22b-e702-bff36274f295@proasyl.de>

> On 3/8/19 8:17 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>> On 3/8/19 12:05 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
>>> Am 07.03.2019 um 23:54 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
>>>> I would still like to find the underlying issue. I have been unable to
>>>> duplicate it locally. I would appreciate it if before you run
>>>> bin/unshunt, you could copy a few of the .pck files aside and send them
>>>> to me off-list.
>>> Will send some .pck files to your private address. Some may hold content
>>> which is not meant to be publicly available, they are for your eyes only :-)
>>
>> Thank you. I will treat them confidentially.
>
> I have set up a test wherein I symlinked the qfiles path from the
> metadata in the shunted .pck files to the qfiles directory in the test
> installation, created the 5 lists that the shunted messages were
> destined to with preferred language = German and unshunted the 5 messages.
>
> The test Mailman is the head of the
> https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1 branch, but this
> differs from the 2.1.29 release in minor ways, none of which have to do
> with archiving.
>
> Each of the unshunted messages was properly archived with no exceptions
> being thrown and qfiles/shunt/ was empty after unshunting.
>
> I then removed the 5 lists and started over, this time with
>
> ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = No
>
> which is the only setting I see offhand that might affect this, but the
> result was the same, no error.
>
> Also, I note that some of the shunted messages had no non-ascii in From:
>
> I don't know what's going on in your installation, but I can't duplicate
> the issue. It may have something to do with list configuration or your
> German message catalog or templates if you have any changes in that area
> (i.e. any templates/site/de/* templates/HOST_NAME/de/* or
> templates/lists/LIST_NAME/de/* files not properly encoded as
> iso-8859-1). It could also be something in the
> archives/private/LIST_NAME/database/* files, although this would
> probably only affect the period in which you upgraded.
>
> In order to go any further with this, I'd need to see complete error and
> traceback information from Mailman's error log for the recently shunted
> messages.
>

An example of a complete error message:

Mar 11 17:02:22 2019 (15400) SHUNTING:
1552320069.504329+15fb4f71a5404fd1af3dafbe2780486d5b474cc7
Mar 11 17:22:37 2019 (15400) Uncaught runner exception: 'ascii' codec
can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26: ordinal not in range(128)
Mar 11 17:22:37 2019 (15400) Traceback (most recent call last):
? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
??? self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
??? keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 77, in _dispose
??? mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 216, in
ArchiveMail
??? h.processUnixMailbox(f)
? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 602, in
processUnixMailbox
??? self.add_article(a)
? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 646, in
add_article
??? author = fixAuthor(article.decoded['author'])
? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 63, in
fixAuthor
??? while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26:
ordinal not in range(128)

The problem is site-wide, not just for one or two lists. Anyway, there
are no altered templates or messages for a specific list. The only files
deviating from the default configuration are:
Defaults.py
mm_cfg.py

Of course Defaults.py has
DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE = 'en'.

So in mm_cfg.py I added
DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE = 'de'
add_language('en', 'English (USA)', 'iso-8859-1', 'ltr')

But I cannot see how this would cause the problem.


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 12 18:47:30 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 15:47:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <b7e76af2-714c-c22b-e702-bff36274f295@proasyl.de>
References: <786d3705-8e5b-b41f-246a-a8b98d8e7afe@proasyl.de>
 <b7e76af2-714c-c22b-e702-bff36274f295@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <3079cae7-9286-726d-9184-aa21391f7242@msapiro.net>

On 3/12/19 2:37 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
> 
> An example of a complete error message:
> 
> Mar 11 17:02:22 2019 (15400) SHUNTING:
> 1552320069.504329+15fb4f71a5404fd1af3dafbe2780486d5b474cc7
> Mar 11 17:22:37 2019 (15400) Uncaught runner exception: 'ascii' codec
> can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26: ordinal not in range(128)
> Mar 11 17:22:37 2019 (15400) Traceback (most recent call last):
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
> ??? self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
> ??? keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 77, in _dispose
> ??? mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 216, in
> ArchiveMail
> ??? h.processUnixMailbox(f)
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 602, in
> processUnixMailbox
> ??? self.add_article(a)
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 646, in
> add_article
> ??? author = fixAuthor(article.decoded['author'])
> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 63, in
> fixAuthor
> ??? while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26:
> ordinal not in range(128)

Again, this is the code trying to "Canonicalize a name into Last, First
format". The complete statement is

        while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
                       L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
            i = i - 1

smallNameParts is all lower case ascii, i.e.

= ['van', 'von', 'der', 'de']

and L is the list returned by

    L = author.split()

and none of the shunted .pck files you provided me have any name pieces
longer than 14 bytes and only 2 of the 5 even have any non-ascii, but
the decode error refers to byte 0xb5 in position 26 (B5 in iso-8859-1 is ?).

I know you said in your original post

> I am using Python 2.6.6 on a Centos 6 system. The output of
> /usr/lib64/python >>> import string >>> string.lowercase is
> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz' (as it is supposed to be).

but see below.

> The problem is site-wide, not just for one or two lists. Anyway, there
> are no altered templates or messages for a specific list. The only files
> deviating from the default configuration are:
> Defaults.py
> mm_cfg.py
> 
> Of course Defaults.py has
> DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE = 'en'.
> 
> So in mm_cfg.py I added
> DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE = 'de'
> add_language('en', 'English (USA)', 'iso-8859-1', 'ltr')
> 
> But I cannot see how this would cause the problem.

Neither can I, but I tried again with those settings just to be sure,
and got no issues.

All of this leads me to conclude that the issue must be non-ascii
following the 'z' in string.lowercase.

What is the path to the Python interpreter that Mailman is using?

What do you get if in that Python you do

import string
lowercase
string

For example, I get

>>> import string
>>> lowercase
'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
>>> string
<module 'string' from '/usr/lib/python2.7/string.pyc'>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From guleria.ajay at gmail.com  Tue Mar 12 11:47:38 2019
From: guleria.ajay at gmail.com (Ajay Guleria)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 21:17:38 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MTA says too many recipients
References: <48DF2F4A-FDF4-467F-8DF8-988FC909FF53@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <235BFF39-423A-48F0-A794-6D116D11DDAD@gmail.com>



> 
> 
> We are using mailman 2.x. We are relaying all mails though a postfix MTA server where smtpd_recipeint_limit  is 36. On mailman server in logs we are getting  452: 4.5.3 Error: too many recipients. Our mailing list has 960 members and Ceiling on acceptable number of recipients for a posting value is 0. How to resolve this issue?
> 
> Ajay
> 
> 


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 13 12:17:50 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 09:17:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MTA says too many recipients
In-Reply-To: <235BFF39-423A-48F0-A794-6D116D11DDAD@gmail.com>
References: <48DF2F4A-FDF4-467F-8DF8-988FC909FF53@gmail.com>
 <235BFF39-423A-48F0-A794-6D116D11DDAD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3bdbd895-834a-5706-a2f9-8bd3c9b73aee@msapiro.net>

On 3/12/19 8:47 AM, Ajay Guleria wrote:
>>
>> We are using mailman 2.x. We are relaying all mails though a postfix MTA server where smtpd_recipeint_limit  is 36. On mailman server in logs we are getting  452: 4.5.3 Error: too many recipients. Our mailing list has 960 members and Ceiling on acceptable number of recipients for a posting value is 0. How to resolve this issue?


Set SMTP_MAX_RCPTS to a number less than 36 in Mailman/mm_cfg.py, or
perhaps better set

VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1

Read about these settings in Mailman/Defaults.py

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From david at midrange.com  Wed Mar 13 15:41:32 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 14:41:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FYI: Mailbait operating under a new domain
Message-ID: <e54eb1d0-451d-5b19-5869-d0e0e0b8e647@midrange.com>

Folks:

Just a FYI ... the a--hole who runs mailbait.info appears to be operating under a new domain name ... smoremail.com.

If you've implemented any web rules to prevent attacks from mailbait, you'll need to update those rules.

This 'service' is supposed to allow you to fill your mailbox ? why anyone would want to do this is beyond me ? and it has absolutely ZERO protections against submitting someone else's email address.

david

-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by visiting https://mideml.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... https://mideml.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!

From ls at proasyl.de  Thu Mar 14 05:39:50 2019
From: ls at proasyl.de (Lothar Schilling)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:39:50 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd:  Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>

?Am 12.03.2019 um 23:47 schrieb Mark Sapiro:

> On 3/12/19 2:37 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
>> An example of a complete error message:
>>
>> Mar 11 17:02:22 2019 (15400) SHUNTING:
>> 1552320069.504329+15fb4f71a5404fd1af3dafbe2780486d5b474cc7
>> Mar 11 17:22:37 2019 (15400) Uncaught runner exception: 'ascii' codec
>> can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26: ordinal not in range(128)
>> Mar 11 17:22:37 2019 (15400) Traceback (most recent call last):
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
>> ??? self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
>> ??? keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 77, in _dispose
>> ??? mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 216, in
>> ArchiveMail
>> ??? h.processUnixMailbox(f)
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 602, in
>> processUnixMailbox
>> ??? self.add_article(a)
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 646, in
>> add_article
>> ??? author = fixAuthor(article.decoded['author'])
>> ? File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 63, in
>> fixAuthor
>> ??? while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
>> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26:
>> ordinal not in range(128)
> Again, this is the code trying to "Canonicalize a name into Last, First
> format". The complete statement is
>
>         while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
>                        L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
>             i = i - 1
>
> smallNameParts is all lower case ascii, i.e.
>
> = ['van', 'von', 'der', 'de']
>
> and L is the list returned by
>
>     L = author.split()
>
> and none of the shunted .pck files you provided me have any name pieces
> longer than 14 bytes and only 2 of the 5 even have any non-ascii, but
> the decode error refers to byte 0xb5 in position 26 (B5 in iso-8859-1 is ?).
>
> I know you said in your original post
>
>> I am using Python 2.6.6 on a Centos 6 system. The output of
>> /usr/lib64/python >>> import string >>> string.lowercase is
>> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz' (as it is supposed to be).
> but see below.
>
>> The problem is site-wide, not just for one or two lists. Anyway, there
>> are no altered templates or messages for a specific list. The only files
>> deviating from the default configuration are:
>> Defaults.py
>> mm_cfg.py
>>
>> Of course Defaults.py has
>> DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE = 'en'.
>>
>> So in mm_cfg.py I added
>> DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE = 'de'
>> add_language('en', 'English (USA)', 'iso-8859-1', 'ltr')
>>
>> But I cannot see how this would cause the problem.
> Neither can I, but I tried again with those settings just to be sure,
> and got no issues.
>
> All of this leads me to conclude that the issue must be non-ascii
> following the 'z' in string.lowercase.
>
> What is the path to the Python interpreter that Mailman is using?

/usr/bin/python
/usr/bin/python -V: Python 2.6.6

> What do you get if in that Python you do
>
> import string
> lowercase
> string
>
> For example, I get
>
>>>> import string
>>>> lowercase
> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
>>>> string
> <module 'string' from '/usr/lib/python2.7/string.pyc'>
>

import string

lowercase
Traceback (most recent call last):
? File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
NameError: name 'lowercase' is not defined

string
<module 'string' from '/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>


From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Thu Mar 14 11:14:57 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 00:14:57 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd:  Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <23690.28657.238144.808969@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lothar Schilling writes:

 > > What do you get if in that Python you do
 > >
 > > import string
 > > lowercase

I think this should be 'string.lowercase'.

 > import string
 > 
 > lowercase
 > Traceback (most recent call last):
 > ? File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
 > NameError: name 'lowercase' is not defined

This is what I would expect.  I'm not sure why Mark got something
different (he may have previously done 'from string import *').  We
apologize for the inaccuracy.

 > string
 > <module 'string' from '/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>

It occurred to me that that you're probably in a German locale, in
which case umlauts and sharp S might be added to the string of
lowercase letters, but that doesn't seem to be the case:

$ LC_ALL=de_DE python
Python 2.7.10 (default, Oct  6 2017, 22:29:07) 
[GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 9.0.0 (clang-900.0.31)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import string
>>> string.lowercase
'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
>>> len(string.lowercase)
26
>>> string
<module 'string' from '/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/string.pyc'>

I added 'len(string.lowercase)' to the experiment as a quick
consistency check.  I also tried the same environment setting on Linux
with the same result, except that the module was loaded from
/usr/lib/python2.7/string.pyc and Python's version was 2.7.16rc1.  So
the locale doesn't seem to be at issue.

Regards,
Steve

-- 
Associate Professor              Division of Policy and Planning Science
http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/     Faculty of Systems and Information
Email: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp                   University of Tsukuba
Tel: 029-853-5175                 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 14 13:40:13 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:40:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <23690.28657.238144.808969@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
 <23690.28657.238144.808969@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <fc60b2cd-f797-c9a8-adfc-843ed113cf13@msapiro.net>

On 3/14/19 8:14 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Lothar Schilling writes:
> 
>  > > What do you get if in that Python you do
>  > >
>  > > import string
>  > > lowercase
> 
> I think this should be 'string.lowercase'.
> 
>  > import string
>  > 
>  > lowercase
>  > Traceback (most recent call last):
>  > ? File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>  > NameError: name 'lowercase' is not defined
> 
> This is what I would expect.  I'm not sure why Mark got something
> different (he may have previously done 'from string import *').  We
> apologize for the inaccuracy.


Yes, this was definitely an error on my part. I had initially done

from string import lowercase

but I wanted to see where 'string' came from so I did `import string` so
I could get that and thel when I did 'lowercase' instead of
'string.lowercase', it worked.

I apologize for the confusion.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 14 13:55:27 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:55:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>

On 3/14/19 2:39 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
> ?Am 12.03.2019 um 23:47 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
>>
>> What is the path to the Python interpreter that Mailman is using?
> 
> /usr/bin/python
> /usr/bin/python -V: Python 2.6.6


What is the python command in the result of

ps -fwwA|grep ArchRunner


>> What do you get if in that Python you do
>>
>> import string
>> lowercase

As noted in other replies, this should have been 'string.lowercase'.


>> string
...
> string
> <module 'string' from '/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>


Get the python command from the 'ps' result above. run that full path
and then do

>>> import string
>>> string.lowercase
>>> string

I am expecting (hoping actually because it's the only explanation I can
see) that the result of 'string.lowercase' will be longer than 26
characters and will contain non-ascii. Then the result of 'string' will
point to the string.py(c) that this comes from.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From steven.jones at vuw.ac.nz  Thu Mar 14 19:58:54 2019
From: steven.jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 23:58:54 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is there a way to get a list of all lists with the
 list owner?
Message-ID: <SYBPR01MB41692C69BE5B4562788100BAD44B0@SYBPR01MB4169.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>



regards

Steven


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 14 20:48:35 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 17:48:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Is there a way to get a list of all lists with
 the list owner?
In-Reply-To: <SYBPR01MB41692C69BE5B4562788100BAD44B0@SYBPR01MB4169.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SYBPR01MB41692C69BE5B4562788100BAD44B0@SYBPR01MB4169.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <ce362dda-096c-2b5e-4817-63110345cfa9@msapiro.net>

See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030671>.

I think list_owners with '-w' and possibly '-m' is what you want.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From ls at proasyl.de  Fri Mar 15 07:27:23 2019
From: ls at proasyl.de (Lothar Schilling)
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:27:23 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
 <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <c93ae39d-fdd4-ee7b-c4cb-8bea0371307b@proasyl.de>

Am 14.03.2019 um 18:55 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> On 3/14/19 2:39 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
>> ?Am 12.03.2019 um 23:47 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
>>> What is the path to the Python interpreter that Mailman is using?
>> /usr/bin/python
>> /usr/bin/python -V: Python 2.6.6
>
> What is the python command in the result of
>
> ps -fwwA|grep ArchRunner
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s

>
>>> What do you get if in that Python you do
>>>
>>> import string
>>> lowercase
> As noted in other replies, this should have been 'string.lowercase'.
>
>
>>> string
> ...
>> string
>> <module 'string' from '/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>
>
> Get the python command from the 'ps' result above. run that full path
> and then do
>
>>>> import string
>>>> string.lowercase
>>>> string
> I am expecting (hoping actually because it's the only explanation I can
> see) that the result of 'string.lowercase' will be longer than 26
> characters and will contain non-ascii. Then the result of 'string' will
> point to the string.py(c) that this comes from.
Sadly not:

import string
string.lowercase
??? 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
string??
??? <module 'string' from 'string.pyc'>


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 15 12:25:18 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 09:25:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <c93ae39d-fdd4-ee7b-c4cb-8bea0371307b@proasyl.de>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
 <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>
 <c93ae39d-fdd4-ee7b-c4cb-8bea0371307b@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <3d128e87-4f16-23eb-4f62-921210bfb298@msapiro.net>

On 3/15/19 4:27 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
> Am 14.03.2019 um 18:55 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
>> On 3/14/19 2:39 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
...
>>> string
>>> <module 'string' from '/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>
...
> Sadly not:
> 
> import string
> string.lowercase
> ??? 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
> string??
> ??? <module 'string' from 'string.pyc'>


This is interesting. Here you get <module 'string' from 'string.pyc'>
and before (above) you got <module 'string' from
'/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>.

I wonder why the difference.

In the message at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2019-March/084243.html>
I suggested this patch

=== modified file 'Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py'
--- Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2018-05-03 21:23:47 +0000
+++ Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2019-03-02 04:51:23 +0000
@@ -60,9 +60,12 @@
     else:
         # Mixed case; assume that small parts of the last name will be
         # in lowercase, and check them against the list.
-        while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
-                       L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
-            i = i - 1
+        try:
+            while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
+                           L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
+                i = i - 1
+        except:
+            syslog('error', 'Exception in fixAuthor: %s', author)
     author = SPACE.join(L[-1:] + L[i:-1]) + ', ' + SPACE.join(L[:i])
     return author



I assume you still have that installed. In any case, if you add a second
syslog line after the first

            syslog('error', 'lowercase value: %r', lowercase)

What do you then get in Mailman's error log


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From steven.jones at vuw.ac.nz  Sun Mar 17 18:41:35 2019
From: steven.jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2019 22:41:35 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman 3 and freeipa
Message-ID: <SYBPR01MB4169B5F2681D7337E4880791D4460@SYBPR01MB4169.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,


I cant find anything on this so far but can Mailman3's webui use freeipa as the authentication mechanism?


regards

Steven

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Mon Mar 18 03:16:13 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 16:16:13 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman 3 and freeipa
In-Reply-To: <SYBPR01MB4169B5F2681D7337E4880791D4460@SYBPR01MB4169.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SYBPR01MB4169B5F2681D7337E4880791D4460@SYBPR01MB4169.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <23695.17853.803495.523039@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Crossposting and redirecting replies to mailman-users at mailman3.org.

Steven Jones writes:

 > I cant find anything on this so far but can Mailman3's webui use
 > freeipa as the authentication mechanism?

Hi Steve,

I don't have a complete answer offhand (and right now I'm just
reducing my inbox so a single google search is as much as I can do),
but searching for "freeipa django" indicates that there are
"connectors" for Django and FreeIPA.  The nicest option would be a
plugin for Django's socialauth application.

If that doesn't seem to exist, perhaps you can just add a FreeIPA
application to the Django configuration.  You would need to add it to
both Postorius and HyperKitty configurations.

Steve


-- 
Associate Professor              Division of Policy and Planning Science
http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/     Faculty of Systems and Information
Email: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp                   University of Tsukuba
Tel: 029-853-5175                 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN

From ls at proasyl.de  Mon Mar 18 05:29:39 2019
From: ls at proasyl.de (Lothar Schilling)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 10:29:39 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <3d128e87-4f16-23eb-4f62-921210bfb298@msapiro.net>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
 <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>
 <c93ae39d-fdd4-ee7b-c4cb-8bea0371307b@proasyl.de>
 <3d128e87-4f16-23eb-4f62-921210bfb298@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <534ec65f-e2df-5255-4e27-e6647b66bf9a@proasyl.de>


Mit herzlichem Dank und freundlichen Gr??en!

Lothar Schilling

F?rderverein Pro Asyl e.V.
Postfach 160624
60069 Frankfurt
Tel. 069 242314-40

Am 15.03.2019 um 17:25 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> On 3/15/19 4:27 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
>> Am 14.03.2019 um 18:55 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
>>> On 3/14/19 2:39 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
> ...
>>>> string
>>>> <module 'string' from '/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>
> ...
>> Sadly not:
>>
>> import string
>> string.lowercase
>> ??? 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
>> string??
>> ??? <module 'string' from 'string.pyc'>
>
> This is interesting. Here you get <module 'string' from 'string.pyc'>
> and before (above) you got <module 'string' from
> '/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>.
>
> I wonder why the difference.
>
> In the message at
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2019-March/084243.html>
> I suggested this patch
>
> === modified file 'Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py'
> --- Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2018-05-03 21:23:47 +0000
> +++ Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2019-03-02 04:51:23 +0000
> @@ -60,9 +60,12 @@
>      else:
>          # Mixed case; assume that small parts of the last name will be
>          # in lowercase, and check them against the list.
> -        while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
> -                       L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
> -            i = i - 1
> +        try:
> +            while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
> +                           L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
> +                i = i - 1
> +        except:
> +            syslog('error', 'Exception in fixAuthor: %s', author)
>      author = SPACE.join(L[-1:] + L[i:-1]) + ', ' + SPACE.join(L[:i])
>      return author
>
>
>
> I assume you still have that installed. In any case, if you add a second
> syslog line after the first
>
>             syslog('error', 'lowercase value: %r', lowercase)
>
> What do you then get in Mailman's error log
>
>

Exception in fixAuthor: D?rthe Hinz - Fl?chtlingsrat Nds.
Mar 18 08:33:51 2019 (23745) lowercase value:
'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz\xb5\xdf\xe0\xe1\xe2\xe3\xe4\xe5\xe6\xe7\xe8\xe9\xea\xeb\xec\xed\xee\xef\xf0\xf1\xf2\xf3\xf4\xf5\xf6\xf8\xf9\xfa\xfb\xfc\xfd\xfe\xff'
Mar 18 10:06:50 2019 (23745) Exception in fixAuthor: Philipp Millius
(Fl?chtlingsrat THR e.V.)
Mar 18 10:06:50 2019 (23745) lowercase value:
'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz\xb5\xdf\xe0\xe1\xe2\xe3\xe4\xe5\xe6\xe7\xe8\xe9\xea\xeb\xec\xed\xee\xef\xf0\xf1\xf2\xf3\xf4\xf5\xf6\xf8\xf9\xfa\xfb\xfc\xfd\xfe\xff'

From danjde at msw.it  Mon Mar 18 05:51:48 2019
From: danjde at msw.it (Davide Marchi)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 10:51:48 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delivery errors and spam grading
Message-ID: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>

Hi Friends,

I have a few doubts, I write you in the hope of a hint.
For Mailman 2.1.23 on Debian Stretch:

1) How is it possible from Mailman monitor the delivery errors? Only 
sysadmin mail server from the logs?
2) Is it possible avoid spam grading, increasing the number of sending 
sessions/decreasing individual emails sent per session? And eventually 
your hint? :-)




Many thanks!

Davide




-- 
cosmogoniA
n o p r o v a r e n o f a r e o n o n f a r e n o n c e p r o v a r e


From david at midrange.com  Mon Mar 18 08:11:38 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 07:11:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delivery errors and spam grading
In-Reply-To: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>
References: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>
Message-ID: <02a8b9f4-2df5-ae14-c223-23e10dc3285d@midrange.com>

On 3/18/2019 4:51 AM, Davide Marchi wrote:
> 1) How is it possible from Mailman monitor the delivery errors? Only 
> sysadmin mail server from the logs?

This is what VERP deliveries are for. The FROM address is tagged so that bounces can be clearly identified.

https://wiki.list.org/DOC/So%20what%20is%20this%20VERP%20stuff

david



-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by visiting https://mideml.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... https://mideml.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Mon Mar 18 08:39:02 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 21:39:02 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delivery errors and spam grading
In-Reply-To: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>
References: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>
Message-ID: <23695.37222.799957.323157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Davide Marchi writes:

 > 1) How is it possible from Mailman monitor the delivery errors? Only 
 > sysadmin mail server from the logs?

That depends on what you mean by "monitor" and "delivery errors".  If
you mean mail refused by some system (typically the final recipient)
and returned to Mailman, that is what we call "bounces".  Mailman can
be configured on the [Bounce processing] screen to send mail to the
list owner (only, not moderators or the site administrator) four types
of notifications about bounces.  The default is usually appropriate.

In some cases recipient systems don't identify the bounced recipient.
In that case you can use VERP as described below, which arranges that
Mailman receives all bounces in such a way that the recipient can be
identified (a special-purpose return address is allocated per
recipient).

There is no web-based monitor in Mailman 2.  These notifications are
sent by email to the list owner.  However, if your email provider uses
a web-based manager like cPanel, you may have some access to this
information (I don't use cPanel, so I don't know what features it
provides for monitoring system health).

If you mean any other kind of delivery failure that is detected by the
Mailman host, but is not returned to Mailman, then it is simply
impossible for Mailman to even be aware of them, and you would have to
check the MTA (mail server) logs.  And of course there are delivery
errors that happen and never are returned to the Mailman host at all
(you find out about these because subscribers tell you).  There's
nothing that can be done about those by Mailman, either.

 > 2) Is it possible avoid spam grading

You should set DMARC Moderation Action to Munge From in the [Privacy
options -- Sender filters] screen.  (Strictly speaking this isn't spam
filtering, it's mitigating breakage induced by incompetent email
providers.)  And of course you should filter incoming mail for spam
(and if you have any human users besides root on the Mailman host,
outgoing mail too -- this is why it's a good idea to have a dedicated
host for Mailman!)  The MTA should be set up to use DKIM and SPF.

 > increasing the number of sending sessions/decreasing individual
 > emails sent per session?

It's not obvious to me that this is very useful: most of the big
providers count the number of times a message is received by any
method.  They don't care if you do it one at a time (although they may
shut you down before any mail is delivered if they are counting the
recipients per session).  The usual reason for throttling is because
Mailman's provider doesn't like accepting huge numbers of addressees
from Mailman, not because you have tons of subscribers at one
provider.

Only very crudely, in a site-wide way or very drastically per-list.
The site-wide option works with Mailman's internal "SMTPDirect"
DELIVERY_MODULE (which is the default).  Set SMTP_MAX_RCPTS to some
"reasonable" figure in mm_cfg.py.  This applies to all outgoing
connections.

Alternatively, you can set VERP_INTERVAL=1 in mm_cfg.py, which ensures
that every message is a one-subscriber-per-SMTP-session sitewide, or
for each list you can enable Personalization in the [Non-digest
options] which has the same effect for one list.  (You probably should
also disable the Digestable option in [Digest options].

Steve


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar 18 12:06:03 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 09:06:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <534ec65f-e2df-5255-4e27-e6647b66bf9a@proasyl.de>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
 <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>
 <c93ae39d-fdd4-ee7b-c4cb-8bea0371307b@proasyl.de>
 <3d128e87-4f16-23eb-4f62-921210bfb298@msapiro.net>
 <534ec65f-e2df-5255-4e27-e6647b66bf9a@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <05402ffb-5743-d948-d892-4bb69dbce0a8@msapiro.net>

On 3/18/19 2:29 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
> 
> Exception in fixAuthor: D?rthe Hinz - Fl?chtlingsrat Nds.
> Mar 18 08:33:51 2019 (23745) lowercase value:
> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz\xb5\xdf\xe0\xe1\xe2\xe3\xe4\xe5\xe6\xe7\xe8\xe9\xea\xeb\xec\xed\xee\xef\xf0\xf1\xf2\xf3\xf4\xf5\xf6\xf8\xf9\xfa\xfb\xfc\xfd\xfe\xff'
> Mar 18 10:06:50 2019 (23745) Exception in fixAuthor: Philipp Millius
> (Fl?chtlingsrat THR e.V.)
> Mar 18 10:06:50 2019 (23745) lowercase value:
> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz\xb5\xdf\xe0\xe1\xe2\xe3\xe4\xe5\xe6\xe7\xe8\xe9\xea\xeb\xec\xed\xee\xef\xf0\xf1\xf2\xf3\xf4\xf5\xf6\xf8\xf9\xfa\xfb\xfc\xfd\xfe\xff'


which is iso-8859-1 encoding of
'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz?????????????????????????????????' and which
is the problem.

I don't know why in testing string.lowercase does not return the above
string, but in the Python that's running ArchRunner, and presumably the
rest of mailman, string.lowercase has that value. This is what needs to
be fixed. The first step is possibly to do

locate string.py

And then look at all the ones you find to see which defines lowercase
that way and then figure out why the Python that runs Mailman uses that
one rather that the ones you see in testing.

Also,

which -a python

may help find things.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar 18 12:29:44 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 09:29:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delivery errors and spam grading
In-Reply-To: <23695.37222.799957.323157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>
 <23695.37222.799957.323157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <2c4d7036-3c92-878f-0b48-7f3c322fb632@msapiro.net>

On 3/18/19 5:39 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> If you mean any other kind of delivery failure that is detected by the
> Mailman host, but is not returned to Mailman, then it is simply
> impossible for Mailman to even be aware of them, and you would have to
> check the MTA (mail server) logs.


However errors that occur during SMTP from Mailman to the outgoing MTA
are returned to Mailman. Mailman sees the SMTP status return and if it
is a 5xx status, scores that as a bounce and if it is a 4xx status
retries sending the message to the failed recipient(s) at configurable
intervals for a configurable time.

The retry interval is DELIVERY_RETRY_WAIT with a default of one hour,
but in MM 2.1.23, DELIVERY_RETRY_WAIT is ignored and the interval is 15
minutes.

The duration of retries is DELIVERY_RETRY_PERIOD with a default of 5
days, after which Mailman gives up without scoring a bounce.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From james at dorydesign.com  Mon Mar 18 21:44:05 2019
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 17:44:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delivery errors and spam grading
In-Reply-To: <23695.37222.799957.323157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>
 <23695.37222.799957.323157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy1v480-Sxa33Bkau3+JjdJ+8+2nnnRh9sGBnzTL4DEUGw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:39 AM Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

>
>   (You probably should
> also disable the Digestable option in [Digest options]
>

I'm also receiving several bounces back for errors such as:
 "SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
    554 Failed: Malformed MIME field: X-Ham-Report:"

Or:
 "SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
    554 5.7.1 [P4] Message blocked due to spam content in the message."

Mostly associated with the digest. Curious about the statement  above from
Steve: is disabling the digest option something people do regularly to
prevent issues like this? and if so - if I were to disable it now, what
happens to those members who are using that option? I assume they just
start automatically receiving non-digest messages, but figured I should ask.

thanks, JD

From bsfinkel at att.net  Mon Mar 18 22:10:34 2019
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 21:10:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delivery errors and spam grading
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy1v480-Sxa33Bkau3+JjdJ+8+2nnnRh9sGBnzTL4DEUGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>
 <23695.37222.799957.323157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAKhfoy1v480-Sxa33Bkau3+JjdJ+8+2nnnRh9sGBnzTL4DEUGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17a4e1e3-bec4-5a17-629c-d2fa2a9ce80e@att.net>

On 3/18/2019 8:44 PM, Jim Dory wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:39 AM Stephen J. Turnbull <
> turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
> 
>>
>>    (You probably should
>> also disable the Digestable option in [Digest options]
>>
> 
> I'm also receiving several bounces back for errors such as:
>   "SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
>      554 Failed: Malformed MIME field: X-Ham-Report:"
> 
> Or:
>   "SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
>      554 5.7.1 [P4] Message blocked due to spam content in the message."
> 
> Mostly associated with the digest. Curious about the statement  above from
> Steve: is disabling the digest option something people do regularly to
> prevent issues like this? and if so - if I were to disable it now, what
> happens to those members who are using that option? I assume they just
> start automatically receiving non-digest messages, but figured I should ask.
> 
> thanks, JD

The second "error" message is one over which you have little control.
The recipient's mail system detected content in the digest that it
considered spam.  I assume that if the messages in the digest had been
sent individually in non-digest mode, then the message that had the
objectionable content would have been similarly flagged.

As for the first "error" - A quick Google search showed that the

      X-Ham-Report:

header line is written by Cpanel when it detects that the message is
not spam.  I do not know if any other software writes this line.
I am not an expert in MIME, but I do not see how any "X-" header
line could be treated as a malformed MIME header.

If you have users who are using digest mode, then removing that option
will cause consternation with those users.  And I doubt that the digest
mode has anything to do with this error message.

--Barry Finkel


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar 18 22:19:57 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 19:19:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delivery errors and spam grading
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy1v480-Sxa33Bkau3+JjdJ+8+2nnnRh9sGBnzTL4DEUGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>
 <23695.37222.799957.323157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAKhfoy1v480-Sxa33Bkau3+JjdJ+8+2nnnRh9sGBnzTL4DEUGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b07a7f81-4364-ae35-b10e-3db1d4de7b29@msapiro.net>

On 3/18/19 6:44 PM, Jim Dory wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:39 AM Stephen J. Turnbull <
> turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
> 
>>
>>   (You probably should
>> also disable the Digestable option in [Digest options]
>>
> 
> I'm also receiving several bounces back for errors such as:
>  "SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
>     554 Failed: Malformed MIME field: X-Ham-Report:"


Does your outgoing MTA add an X-Ham-Report: header? Perhaps it does so
in a non-compliant way.


> Or:
>  "SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
>     554 5.7.1 [P4] Message blocked due to spam content in the message."


This one you can't do much about. The recipient thinks it's spammy, but
you'll never know why without a lot of trial and error.

If your problems are mostly with digests, you can subscribe yourself (at
alternate addresses) to both MIME and plain digests and then when you're
looking at a bounce, at least you'll have your copy of the message that
was sent for analysis.


> Mostly associated with the digest. Curious about the statement  above from
> Steve: is disabling the digest option something people do regularly to
> prevent issues like this? and if so - if I were to disable it now, what
> happens to those members who are using that option? I assume they just
> start automatically receiving non-digest messages, but figured I should ask.


Good thing you asked, although if you set digestable to No, at that
point and on every web admin access after you will get a big, bold

Warning: You have digest members, but digests are turned off. Those
people will not receive mail. Affected member(s) [list of digest members]

You will need to set those members to non-digest either manually or via
a script like <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/set_nodigest.py>
-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From james at dorydesign.com  Tue Mar 19 02:48:25 2019
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 22:48:25 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delivery errors and spam grading
In-Reply-To: <b07a7f81-4364-ae35-b10e-3db1d4de7b29@msapiro.net>
References: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>
 <23695.37222.799957.323157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAKhfoy1v480-Sxa33Bkau3+JjdJ+8+2nnnRh9sGBnzTL4DEUGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <b07a7f81-4364-ae35-b10e-3db1d4de7b29@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy33oSWGxP3bmU6y0eZJ+XyYE3oZW8nnq4kcWj4A-o+nRA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 6:19 PM Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

>
> Does your outgoing MTA add an X-Ham-Report: header? Perhaps it does so
> in a non-compliant way.
>
>
> > is disabling the digest option something people do regularly to
> > prevent issues like this? and if so - if I were to disable it now, what
> > happens to those members who are using that option?
>
> Good thing you asked, although if you set digestable to No, at that
> point and on every web admin access after you will get a big, bold
>
> Warning: You have digest members, but digests are turned off. Those
> people will not receive mail. Affected member(s) [list of digest members]
>
> You will need to set those members to non-digest either manually or via
> a script like <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/set_nodigest.py>
> --
>
>
Thanks very much Mark and Barry. I'll look into the errors further on my
own. Don't know that much about this stuff.. I'm on a VPS with root
access.. it uses Exim and Apache SpamAssassin. I can log in via WHM or
CPanel. So I'll poke around. Things were pretty quiet for awhile, but our
VPS was just migrated to another server by our host, so I think a few
things may have gotten changed.

As for disabling Digest, I have a fair number of users that would probably
be upset. Just tonight at a social event in town, one user mentioned our
mailing list (comparing it to a local facebook group) saying how he enjoyed
having the digest so it didn't ping his phone for every message rolling in.
(Some of us know how to filter that, but most users may not). So I probably
will not disable it.

/jim

From csa at web-analysts.net  Mon Mar 18 20:19:25 2019
From: csa at web-analysts.net (Web Analysts)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 17:19:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] iterative loop
Message-ID: <340701d4dde9$68d82060$3a886120$@web-analysts.net>

Using mailman 2.1.9 on ubuntu 14.04 using mysql for aliases and mail
accounts. Iy was working fine for a long time then something went awry. Now
I've got an iterative loop and multiple email lists are generating
'Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender' messages. Those message then have the
following email as an attachment:


This is the mail system at host mail.domainname.tld.

I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to
one or more recipients. It's attached below.

For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster.

If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own
text from the attached returned message.

                   The mail system

<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman@ hostname.domainname.tld >: unknown user:
    "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman"


Please advise. Thank you!


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 19 12:21:42 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 09:21:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] iterative loop
In-Reply-To: <340701d4dde9$68d82060$3a886120$@web-analysts.net>
References: <340701d4dde9$68d82060$3a886120$@web-analysts.net>
Message-ID: <bff6b58d-7584-5992-31f5-33433bdc27b5@msapiro.net>

On 3/18/19 5:19 PM, Web Analysts via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Using mailman 2.1.9 on ubuntu 14.04 using mysql for aliases and mail
> accounts. Iy was working fine for a long time then something went awry. Now
> I've got an iterative loop and multiple email lists are generating
> 'Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender' messages. Those message then have the
> following email as an attachment:
> 
> 
> This is the mail system at host mail.domainname.tld.
> 
> I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to
> one or more recipients. It's attached below.
> 
> For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster.
> 
> If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own
> text from the attached returned message.
> 
>                    The mail system
> 
> <|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman@ hostname.domainname.tld >: unknown user:
>     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman"


It looks like the MTA is postfix and something is wrong with the aliases
for Mailman. There should be aliases for each list that look like

> LISTNAME:             "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-admin:       "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-bounces:     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-confirm:     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-join:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-leave:       "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-owner:       "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-request:     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-subscribe:   "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-unsubscribe: "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe LISTNAME"

I'm only guessing here, but it looks like you have the correct aliases,
but somehow they are being processed by a Postfix delivery agent that
doesn't understand delivery via pipe to command.

What are your actual mail.log entries corresponding to these bounces?

This is really a Postfix issue (assuming the Mailman aliases are
correct), but to be of further help, we'd need to see the actual Postfix
mail.log entry for the bounce and the output of 'postconf -n' to start.

Note: you say multiple email lists. If that means some but not all, it
probably is an issue with the aliases themselves.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From csa at web-analysts.net  Tue Mar 19 21:27:03 2019
From: csa at web-analysts.net (Web Analysts)
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:27:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] iterative loop
In-Reply-To: <bff6b58d-7584-5992-31f5-33433bdc27b5@msapiro.net>
References: <340701d4dde9$68d82060$3a886120$@web-analysts.net>
 <bff6b58d-7584-5992-31f5-33433bdc27b5@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <0a7001d4debc$0654ddb0$12fe9910$@web-analysts.net>

Well I removed hostname.domainname.tld from mydestination in
/etc/postfix/main.cf and restarted Postfix. No dice...see below:

Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtpd[18769]: 925B210193B:
client=localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/cleanup[18673]: 925B210193B:
message-id=<mailman.99.1553044787.18654.ssan at lists.domainname.tld >
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 925B210193B:
from=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, size=6805, nrcpt=3 (queue active)
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 925B210193B:
to=<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
[private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.03, delays=0.01/0/0/0.01, dsn=5.1.1,
status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
5.1.1 <ssan at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't exist:
ssan at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to RCPT TO command))
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 925B210193B:
to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >,
relay=mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.03,
delays=0.01/0/0/0.01, dsn=5.1.1, status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld
[private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550 5.1.1
<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't
exist: |/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to
RCPT TO command))
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra amavis[5001]: (05001-19-19) Passed CLEAN
{RelayedInternal,RelayedOutbound}, LOCAL [::1]:53426 [::1]
<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld > -> <ces at domainname.tld
>,<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld
>,<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >, Queue-ID:
C66FF101986, Message-ID:
<mailman.99.1553044787.18654.ssan at lists.domainname.tld >, mail_id:
UPdgfVyqHMQR, Hits: -3.899, size: 6324, queued_as: 925B210193B, 2396 ms
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 925B210193B:
to=<ces at domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp],
delay=0.04, delays=0.01/0/0/0.02, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0
<ces at domainname.tld > wqgTMDOVkVzrRgAAEFbm5A Saved)
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/cleanup[18707]: 9B645101942:
message-id=<20190320012143.9B645101942 at mail.domainname.tld >
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 9B645101942: from=<>,
size=9894, nrcpt=3 (queue active)
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/bounce[18678]: 925B210193B: sender
non-delivery notification: 9B645101942
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 925B210193B: removed
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtp[18662]: C66FF101986:
to=<ces at domainname.tld >, orig_to=<ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld >,
relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024, conn_use=19, delay=113,
delays=0.01/110/0.01/2.4, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 from
MTA(smtp:[127.0.0.1]:10025): 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 925B210193B)
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtp[18662]: C66FF101986:
to=<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld >, orig_to=<ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld
>, relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024, conn_use=19, delay=113,
delays=0.01/110/0.01/2.4, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 from
MTA(smtp:[127.0.0.1]:10025): 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 925B210193B)
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtp[18662]: C66FF101986:
to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >,
orig_to=<ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld >,
relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024, conn_use=19, delay=113,
delays=0.01/110/0.01/2.4, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 from
MTA(smtp:[127.0.0.1]:10025): 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 925B210193B)
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: C66FF101986: removed
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 9B645101942:
to=<bounces at hostname.domainname.tld >,
orig_to=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
[private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.02, delays=0/0/0/0.02, dsn=5.1.1,
status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
5.1.1 <bounces at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't exist:
bounces at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to RCPT TO command))
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 9B645101942:
to=<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld >,
orig_to=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
[private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.03, delays=0/0/0/0.03, dsn=5.1.1,
status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
5.1.1 <ssan at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't exist:
ssan at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to RCPT TO command))
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 9B645101942:
to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >,
orig_to=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
[private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.04, delays=0/0/0/0.03, dsn=5.1.1,
status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
5.1.1 <|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't
exist: |/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to
RCPT TO command))
Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 9B645101942: removed


Please advise.



-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+csa=web-analysts.net at python.org] On Behalf Of
Mark Sapiro
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 9:22 AM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] iterative loop

On 3/18/19 5:19 PM, Web Analysts via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Using mailman 2.1.9 on ubuntu 14.04 using mysql for aliases and mail
> accounts. Iy was working fine for a long time then something went awry.
Now
> I've got an iterative loop and multiple email lists are generating
> 'Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender' messages. Those message then have
the
> following email as an attachment:
> 
> 
> This is the mail system at host mail.domainname.tld.
> 
> I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered
to
> one or more recipients. It's attached below.
> 
> For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster.
> 
> If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own
> text from the attached returned message.
> 
>                    The mail system
> 
> <|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman@ hostname.domainname.tld >: unknown user:
>     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman"


It looks like the MTA is postfix and something is wrong with the aliases
for Mailman. There should be aliases for each list that look like

> LISTNAME:             "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-admin:       "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-bounces:     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-confirm:     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-join:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-leave:       "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-owner:       "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-request:     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-subscribe:   "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-unsubscribe: "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe
LISTNAME"

I'm only guessing here, but it looks like you have the correct aliases,
but somehow they are being processed by a Postfix delivery agent that
doesn't understand delivery via pipe to command.

What are your actual mail.log entries corresponding to these bounces?

This is really a Postfix issue (assuming the Mailman aliases are
correct), but to be of further help, we'd need to see the actual Postfix
mail.log entry for the bounce and the output of 'postconf -n' to start.

Note: you say multiple email lists. If that means some but not all, it
probably is an issue with the aliases themselves.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/csa%40web-analysts.net


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 19 22:23:56 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 19:23:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] iterative loop
In-Reply-To: <0a7001d4debc$0654ddb0$12fe9910$@web-analysts.net>
References: <340701d4dde9$68d82060$3a886120$@web-analysts.net>
 <bff6b58d-7584-5992-31f5-33433bdc27b5@msapiro.net>
 <0a7001d4debc$0654ddb0$12fe9910$@web-analysts.net>
Message-ID: <3fdf7660-a378-3322-12b5-8c3e5e963537@msapiro.net>

On 3/19/19 6:27 PM, Web Analysts via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Well I removed hostname.domainname.tld from mydestination in
> /etc/postfix/main.cf and restarted Postfix. No dice...see below:
> 
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtpd[18769]: 925B210193B:
> client=localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/cleanup[18673]: 925B210193B:
> message-id=<mailman.99.1553044787.18654.ssan at lists.domainname.tld >
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 925B210193B:
> from=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, size=6805, nrcpt=3 (queue active)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 925B210193B:
> to=<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
> [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.03, delays=0.01/0/0/0.01, dsn=5.1.1,
> status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
> 5.1.1 <ssan at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't exist:
> ssan at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to RCPT TO command))
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 925B210193B:
> to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >,
> relay=mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.03,
> delays=0.01/0/0/0.01, dsn=5.1.1, status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld
> [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550 5.1.1
> <|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't
> exist: |/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to
> RCPT TO command))
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra amavis[5001]: (05001-19-19) Passed CLEAN
> {RelayedInternal,RelayedOutbound}, LOCAL [::1]:53426 [::1]
> <ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld > -> <ces at domainname.tld
>> ,<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld
>> ,<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >, Queue-ID:
> C66FF101986, Message-ID:
> <mailman.99.1553044787.18654.ssan at lists.domainname.tld >, mail_id:
> UPdgfVyqHMQR, Hits: -3.899, size: 6324, queued_as: 925B210193B, 2396 ms
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 925B210193B:
> to=<ces at domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp],
> delay=0.04, delays=0.01/0/0/0.02, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0
> <ces at domainname.tld > wqgTMDOVkVzrRgAAEFbm5A Saved)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/cleanup[18707]: 9B645101942:
> message-id=<20190320012143.9B645101942 at mail.domainname.tld >
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 9B645101942: from=<>,
> size=9894, nrcpt=3 (queue active)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/bounce[18678]: 925B210193B: sender
> non-delivery notification: 9B645101942
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 925B210193B: removed


If we look only at entries up to here with queue id 925B210193B, we see
messages to 3 recipients: ssan at hostname.domainname.tld,
|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld and
ces at domainname.tld all being relayed via private/dovecot-lmtp.

There are two more similar sets below with queue ids C66FF101986 and
9B645101942. These all seem to come about in the same way. I'm confuses
about the ces at domainname.tld recipient as it is at domainname.tld rather
than hostname.domainname.tld, but more below.


> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtp[18662]: C66FF101986:
> to=<ces at domainname.tld >, orig_to=<ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld >,
> relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024, conn_use=19, delay=113,
> delays=0.01/110/0.01/2.4, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 from
> MTA(smtp:[127.0.0.1]:10025): 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 925B210193B)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtp[18662]: C66FF101986:
> to=<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld >, orig_to=<ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld
>> , relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024, conn_use=19, delay=113,
> delays=0.01/110/0.01/2.4, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 from
> MTA(smtp:[127.0.0.1]:10025): 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 925B210193B)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtp[18662]: C66FF101986:
> to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >,
> orig_to=<ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld >,
> relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024, conn_use=19, delay=113,
> delays=0.01/110/0.01/2.4, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 from
> MTA(smtp:[127.0.0.1]:10025): 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 925B210193B)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: C66FF101986: removed


Actually, the C66FF101986 entries were first (this log gets written
asynchronously). They are a message to ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld
receeived via smtp and resent with queue-id 925B210193B.


> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 9B645101942:
> to=<bounces at hostname.domainname.tld >,
> orig_to=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
> [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.02, delays=0/0/0/0.02, dsn=5.1.1,
> status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
> 5.1.1 <bounces at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't exist:
> bounces at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to RCPT TO command))
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 9B645101942:
> to=<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld >,
> orig_to=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
> [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.03, delays=0/0/0/0.03, dsn=5.1.1,
> status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
> 5.1.1 <ssan at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't exist:
> ssan at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to RCPT TO command))
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 9B645101942:
> to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >,
> orig_to=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
> [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.04, delays=0/0/0/0.03, dsn=5.1.1,
> status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
> 5.1.1 <|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't
> exist: |/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to
> RCPT TO command))
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 9B645101942: removed


The last set here with queue-id 9B645101942 is the most straightforward.
It is a message to ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld. There is an alias
mapping ssan-bounces to "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces ssan"
which is supposed to pipe the mail to that command, but the dovecot
delivery agent doesn't understand that and take the three words in the
command and appends the local domain to them and tries to deliver to the
three recipient addresses
|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld,
bounces at hostname.domainname.tld and ssan at hostname.domainname.tld none of
which exist.

The bottom line here is that this mail should be delivered via the
Postfix 'local' delivery agent which does understand these aliases, not
via dovecot.

This is a Postfix configuration issue. Perhaps you have a backup of the
Postfix main.cf and master.cf files from when this was working to
compare with the current ones to see what changed.

If you want more help here we have to see at least the output from
'postconf -n' to start.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From ls at proasyl.de  Wed Mar 20 08:31:20 2019
From: ls at proasyl.de (Lothar Schilling)
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 13:31:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <05402ffb-5743-d948-d892-4bb69dbce0a8@msapiro.net>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
 <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>
 <c93ae39d-fdd4-ee7b-c4cb-8bea0371307b@proasyl.de>
 <3d128e87-4f16-23eb-4f62-921210bfb298@msapiro.net>
 <534ec65f-e2df-5255-4e27-e6647b66bf9a@proasyl.de>
 <05402ffb-5743-d948-d892-4bb69dbce0a8@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <cd34fe93-b3cc-fa67-a54e-cac676f5c9cc@proasyl.de>

Am 18.03.2019 um 17:06 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> On 3/18/19 2:29 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
>> Exception in fixAuthor: D?rthe Hinz - Fl?chtlingsrat Nds.
>> Mar 18 08:33:51 2019 (23745) lowercase value:
>> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz\xb5\xdf\xe0\xe1\xe2\xe3\xe4\xe5\xe6\xe7\xe8\xe9\xea\xeb\xec\xed\xee\xef\xf0\xf1\xf2\xf3\xf4\xf5\xf6\xf8\xf9\xfa\xfb\xfc\xfd\xfe\xff'
>> Mar 18 10:06:50 2019 (23745) Exception in fixAuthor: Philipp Millius
>> (Fl?chtlingsrat THR e.V.)
>> Mar 18 10:06:50 2019 (23745) lowercase value:
>> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz\xb5\xdf\xe0\xe1\xe2\xe3\xe4\xe5\xe6\xe7\xe8\xe9\xea\xeb\xec\xed\xee\xef\xf0\xf1\xf2\xf3\xf4\xf5\xf6\xf8\xf9\xfa\xfb\xfc\xfd\xfe\xff'
> which is iso-8859-1 encoding of
> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz?????????????????????????????????' and which
> is the problem.
>
> I don't know why in testing string.lowercase does not return the above
> string, but in the Python that's running ArchRunner, and presumably the
> rest of mailman, string.lowercase has that value. This is what needs to
> be fixed. The first step is possibly to do
>
> locate string.py

There is just one

/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.py

yielding

lowercase = 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'.

> And then look at all the ones you find to see which defines lowercase
> that way and then figure out why the Python that runs Mailman uses that
> one rather that the ones you see in testing.
>
> Also,
>
> which -a python

points to /usr/bin/python as it is supposed to.

>
> may help find things.

As your fix makes for the mails being archived maybe we should leave it
at that. Thank you very much anyway for your patient helping me.


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 20 13:54:08 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 10:54:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <cd34fe93-b3cc-fa67-a54e-cac676f5c9cc@proasyl.de>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
 <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>
 <c93ae39d-fdd4-ee7b-c4cb-8bea0371307b@proasyl.de>
 <3d128e87-4f16-23eb-4f62-921210bfb298@msapiro.net>
 <534ec65f-e2df-5255-4e27-e6647b66bf9a@proasyl.de>
 <05402ffb-5743-d948-d892-4bb69dbce0a8@msapiro.net>
 <cd34fe93-b3cc-fa67-a54e-cac676f5c9cc@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <c16ebf0c-0d07-0ad7-86c7-67be87c1fcb5@msapiro.net>

On 3/20/19 5:31 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
> 
> There is just one
> 
> /usr/lib64/python2.6/string.py
> 
> yielding
> 
> lowercase = 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'.


You could try one more thing. Run Mailman's

bin/withlist -i
...
>>> from string import lowercase
>>> lowercase
(response)
>>> import string
>>> string
(response)

and see if that returns the extended lowercase and where it says
lowercase comes from.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Wed Mar 20 23:32:19 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 12:32:19 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Delivery errors and spam grading
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy1v480-Sxa33Bkau3+JjdJ+8+2nnnRh9sGBnzTL4DEUGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26e8812522a18ade19930112d6f6f03f@msw.it>
 <23695.37222.799957.323157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAKhfoy1v480-Sxa33Bkau3+JjdJ+8+2nnnRh9sGBnzTL4DEUGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23699.1475.174183.532801@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jim Dory writes:
 > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:39 AM Stephen J. Turnbull <
 > turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

 > > (You probably should also disable the Digestable option in
 > > [Digest options]

When I wrote this, I was thinking of a new list, in the context of
personalization as a hack to limit the number of recipients per
session.  The point was to prevent users from setting their
subscriptions to digest.  As far as I know, there is no
personalization of digest messages, so opting for digest would
(theoretically) defeat personalization used to force one message per
session operation.  I don't know of any reason why digests would
increase the probablity of either a bounce or being considered spam in
and of themselves.

 > [Would disabling digestable] prevent issues like this?

As others mentioned, it won't affect those specific issues.  Both
relate to the content of the post, not the rate or mode of multiple
deliveries to the same host.  Of course if the digest contains other
posts, the recipients lose those too, but that's a choice we prefer to
leave up to the subscriber herself.

 > if I were to disable it now, what happens to those members who are
 > using that option? I assume they just start automatically receiving
 > non-digest messages, but figured I should ask.

That's a decision for the administrator.  Our rationale for defaulting
to no mail in this case is that people who select digest have
explicitly opted for a small number of messages, and would likely be
more annoyed by an unexpectedly large number of messages than by
missing messages (which they can read in the archives in most cases).
YMMV on that judgment -- of course, I suppose many would expect
automatic switching to non-digest mode as you did -- but that's our
rationale for a default to non-delivery.

From ls at proasyl.de  Thu Mar 21 12:20:03 2019
From: ls at proasyl.de (Lothar Schilling)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 17:20:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <c16ebf0c-0d07-0ad7-86c7-67be87c1fcb5@msapiro.net>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
 <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>
 <c93ae39d-fdd4-ee7b-c4cb-8bea0371307b@proasyl.de>
 <3d128e87-4f16-23eb-4f62-921210bfb298@msapiro.net>
 <534ec65f-e2df-5255-4e27-e6647b66bf9a@proasyl.de>
 <05402ffb-5743-d948-d892-4bb69dbce0a8@msapiro.net>
 <cd34fe93-b3cc-fa67-a54e-cac676f5c9cc@proasyl.de>
 <c16ebf0c-0d07-0ad7-86c7-67be87c1fcb5@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <24703bff-be83-9d88-fabe-c76fb3b7e3c6@proasyl.de>

Am 20.03.2019 um 18:54 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> On 3/20/19 5:31 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
>> There is just one
>>
>> /usr/lib64/python2.6/string.py
>>
>> yielding
>>
>> lowercase = 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'.
>
> You could try one more thing. Run Mailman's
>
> bin/withlist -i
> ...
>>>> from string import lowercase
>>>> lowercase
> (response)
>>>> import string
>>>> string
> (response)
>
> and see if that returns the extended lowercase and where it says
> lowercase comes from.
>

It doesn't return the extended lowercase:

Python 2.6.6 (r266:84292, Aug 18 2016, 15:13:37)
[GCC 4.4.7 20120313 (Red Hat 4.4.7-17)] on linux2
(InteractiveConsole)
>>> from string import lowercase
>>> lowercase
'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
>>> import string
>>> string
<module 'string' from '/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>


From jhs at berklix.com  Thu Mar 21 10:16:33 2019
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 15:16:33 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list performance under add user load
Message-ID: <201903211416.x2LEGXUg081526@fire.js.berklix.net>

Hi mailman-users@
When I created a petition signature collection site, mailman worked fine
for my small list:
	http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/listinfo/votes-sign

Others since on this list asked if Mailman can support large lists
(real mail lists, not petition signature lists as I unusually used
Mailman for), (with answers inc. "How long's a piece of string?",
aka "What's your back end SMTP capability?" etc).

I can't provide insight on Mailman loads, but see a custom big petition
list just crashed under load (no idea what software & hardware),
	https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584
was crashing repeatedly this morning
	 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47652071
my brother wrote me Thu, 21 Mar 2019 10:32:02 +0000
	"it was going up by over 100,000 per hour earlier today"
I'v seen:
	 43,676 signatures @ Wed, 20 Mar 2019 17:10:10 +0100
	947,303 signatures @ Thu Mar 21 15:06:31 CET 2019
	A load of about a million addresses with confirmation mails a day.
BTW The "Show on a map" links to another site
	https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
presumably that avoids extra load on signature site, nice functionality, but
beyond remit for us on mailman-users at .

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, Consultant Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Aachen Kent
 Brexit now minority:  2.1 M now over 18, More Remainers;  1.5 M died, less
 Leavers; 700 K votes Stolen from British Remainers in EU; + 3 M globaly
 dis- franchised; + drift to Remain + avoid chaos.  MPs should urge Queen: 
 Dismiss May, appoint new PM for unity government & 2nd Referendum.  Revoke
 Art. 50, plan better, refile Art.50 later?  http://ExitBrexit.UK/#email_an_mp

From soyeomul at red-october.yw.doraji.xyz  Thu Mar 21 02:40:01 2019
From: soyeomul at red-october.yw.doraji.xyz (=?utf-8?B?7Zmp67OR7Z2s?=)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 15:40:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
Message-ID: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>

i just did make one vm instance Ubuntu 18.04 on google compute
engine. barely i did install postfix at there. hmm if possible, i wish
to run mailing service for my family and me -- it needs a little bit some comunication plus some
records about family history. yes i want GNU Mailman very
much!!! google compute engine blocked port 25 by default. in this case i
can run mailman with other port (example 625)? again question, Mailman
can act with 625 or 1625 or 2625, ...?

Sincerely, Byung-Hee from South Korea.

-- 
^????? _????_ ?????_^))//


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 21 12:48:50 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 09:48:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <24703bff-be83-9d88-fabe-c76fb3b7e3c6@proasyl.de>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
 <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>
 <c93ae39d-fdd4-ee7b-c4cb-8bea0371307b@proasyl.de>
 <3d128e87-4f16-23eb-4f62-921210bfb298@msapiro.net>
 <534ec65f-e2df-5255-4e27-e6647b66bf9a@proasyl.de>
 <05402ffb-5743-d948-d892-4bb69dbce0a8@msapiro.net>
 <cd34fe93-b3cc-fa67-a54e-cac676f5c9cc@proasyl.de>
 <c16ebf0c-0d07-0ad7-86c7-67be87c1fcb5@msapiro.net>
 <24703bff-be83-9d88-fabe-c76fb3b7e3c6@proasyl.de>
Message-ID: <d9c3433b-f71a-8108-b89e-aa9a7049217f@msapiro.net>

On 3/21/19 9:20 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
> 
> Python 2.6.6 (r266:84292, Aug 18 2016, 15:13:37)
> [GCC 4.4.7 20120313 (Red Hat 4.4.7-17)] on linux2
> (InteractiveConsole)
>>>> from string import lowercase
>>>> lowercase
> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
>>>> import string
>>>> string
> <module 'string' from '/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>


I'm out of ideas. I have no clue as to where the extended
string.lowercase is coming from and why only Mailman is seeing it, but
to work around that, I suggest you change my suggested patch to

=== modified file 'Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py'
--- Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2018-05-03 21:23:47 +0000
+++ Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2019-03-02 04:51:23 +0000
@@ -60,9 +60,12 @@
     else:
         # Mixed case; assume that small parts of the last name will be
         # in lowercase, and check them against the list.
-        while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
-                       L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
-            i = i - 1
+        try:
+            while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
+                           L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
+                i = i - 1
+        except UnicodeDecodeError:
+            pass
     author = SPACE.join(L[-1:] + L[i:-1]) + ', ' + SPACE.join(L[:i])
     return author


This will catch the exception and ignore it without the logging.

Also, I have no idea why when you run bin/unshunt, the .pck files remain
in qfiles/shunt without errors being reported to the terminal or logged
in mailman's error log. Something is strange about that, but I don't
know what could cause it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Mar 21 12:32:15 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 10:32:15 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
Message-ID: <b420944a-78fe-7c08-268c-e23d08695949@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 3/21/19 12:40 AM, ??? wrote:
> in this case i can run mailman with other port (example 625)? again 
> question, Mailman can act with 625 or 1625 or 2625, ...?

No.  Not directly.

Mailman is not a mail server.  You must have a mail server (daemon) sit 
in front of Mailman.

You can make that mail server listen on a different port.  However only 
the other servers you modify to communicate with that alternate port 
will be able to send email.

You really want port 25.  Or you need something else, likely 
specialized, to make things work.

(It's likely possible that something can fetch email from elsewhere and 
feed it into Mailman, but that's something specialized.)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 21 13:44:22 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 10:44:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
Message-ID: <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>

On 3/20/19 11:40 PM, ??? wrote:
> i just did make one vm instance Ubuntu 18.04 on google compute
> engine. barely i did install postfix at there. hmm if possible, i wish
> to run mailing service for my family and me -- it needs a little bit some comunication plus some
> records about family history. yes i want GNU Mailman very
> much!!! google compute engine blocked port 25 by default. in this case i
> can run mailman with other port (example 625)? again question, Mailman
> can act with 625 or 1625 or 2625, ...?


Are you talking incoming or outgoing mail. There are multiple pieces
involved. If incoming port 25 is blocked, Postfix won't be able to
receive incoming mail to the list and you're dead at that point.

Presumably, it is only outgoing port 25 that is blocked. By default
Mailman delivers to the local MTA at localhost:25 which may or may not
be blocked but probably isn't. You can change these by setting SMTPHOST
and SMTPPORT in mm_cfg.py, but if you are going to deliver via the local
Postfix, Postfix will relay the outgoing mail to port 25 at the
recipient MXs. You can't really change that because you can't tell the
recipient MXs to listen on other ports.

You can get Postfix to relay via another MTA, e.g. at your ISP, and
authenticate to it.

If your Mailman is 2.1.23 or later (the Ubuntu 18.04 package is 2.1.26)
you can get Mailman to relay directly to an outside MTA with
authentication via the mm_cfg.py settings SMTP_AUTH, SMTP_USER,
SMTP_PASSWD and SMTP_USE_TLS in addition to SMTPHOST and SMTPPORT.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From adam at agp-llc.com  Thu Mar 21 13:58:41 2019
From: adam at agp-llc.com (Adam Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 17:58:41 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>

A consumer internet connection frequently has incoming port 25 simply blocked, and outgoing port 25 either blocked entirely or blocked for all but the ISP?s outgoing mail server.

There are ways around this.    Consider duocircle.com ?backup mx? service. 

> On Mar 21, 2019, at 1:44 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
> On 3/20/19 11:40 PM, ??? wrote:
>> i just did make one vm instance Ubuntu 18.04 on google compute
>> engine. barely i did install postfix at there. hmm if possible, i wish
>> to run mailing service for my family and me -- it needs a little bit some comunication plus some
>> records about family history. yes i want GNU Mailman very
>> much!!! google compute engine blocked port 25 by default. in this case i
>> can run mailman with other port (example 625)? again question, Mailman
>> can act with 625 or 1625 or 2625, ...?
> 
> 
> Are you talking incoming or outgoing mail. There are multiple pieces
> involved. If incoming port 25 is blocked, Postfix won't be able to
> receive incoming mail to the list and you're dead at that point.
> 
> Presumably, it is only outgoing port 25 that is blocked. By default
> Mailman delivers to the local MTA at localhost:25 which may or may not
> be blocked but probably isn't. You can change these by setting SMTPHOST
> and SMTPPORT in mm_cfg.py, but if you are going to deliver via the local
> Postfix, Postfix will relay the outgoing mail to port 25 at the
> recipient MXs. You can't really change that because you can't tell the
> recipient MXs to listen on other ports.
> 
> You can get Postfix to relay via another MTA, e.g. at your ISP, and
> authenticate to it.
> 
> If your Mailman is 2.1.23 or later (the Ubuntu 18.04 package is 2.1.26)
> you can get Mailman to relay directly to an outside MTA with
> authentication via the mm_cfg.py settings SMTP_AUTH, SMTP_USER,
> SMTP_PASSWD and SMTP_USE_TLS in addition to SMTPHOST and SMTPPORT.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/adam%40agp-llc.com


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Mar 21 14:29:10 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 12:29:10 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
Message-ID: <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 3/21/19 11:58 AM, Adam Goldberg wrote:
> There are ways around this.

I see no technical reason why Mailman couldn't function via something 
like fetchmail from a POP3 mailbox and SMTP Authentication to send.

Fetchmail would pull the messages from an external 3rd party email 
server, do a little processing on them to determine the command and list 
name before pipeing them into Mailman with said command and list name. 
Mailman would do it's thing, and then send the emails out using SMTP 
Authentication with the external 3rd party email server.

It would be quite atypical.  But I think it should work.

This might work for the OP.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 21 14:56:40 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 11:56:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>

On 3/21/19 11:29 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I see no technical reason why Mailman couldn't function via something
> like fetchmail from a POP3 mailbox and SMTP Authentication to send.
> 
> Fetchmail would pull the messages from an external 3rd party email
> server, do a little processing on them to determine the command and list
> name before pipeing them into Mailman with said command and list name.
> Mailman would do it's thing, and then send the emails out using SMTP
> Authentication with the external 3rd party email server.
> 
> It would be quite atypical.? But I think it should work.


It's not as atypical as you think. See, e.g.,
<https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=fetchmail&l=mailman-users%40python.org>.

Also, since Mailman 2.1.23, batteries are included for sending to a
remote MTA with SMTP Authentication.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu  Thu Mar 21 16:05:23 2019
From: dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu (Dimitri Maziuk)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 15:05:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>

On 3/21/19 1:56 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 3/21/19 11:29 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
>>
>> I see no technical reason why Mailman couldn't function via something
>> like fetchmail from a POP3 mailbox and SMTP Authentication to send.
...
>> It would be quite atypical.? But I think it should work.
> 
> 
> It's not as atypical as you think. See, e.g.,
> <https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=fetchmail&l=mailman-users%40python.org>.

IST vaguely R firing up fetchmail from a dip script to inject messages
from my school mailbox into my local qmail... Plenty typical at the time.

-- 
Dimitri Maziuk
Programmer/sysadmin
BioMagResBank, UW-Madison -- http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu

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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Mar 21 16:57:53 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 14:57:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
 <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <513d093d-6f41-ec9e-5a0d-c9d5a6663046@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 3/21/19 2:05 PM, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users wrote:
> IST vaguely R firing up fetchmail from a dip script to inject messages 
> from my school mailbox into my local qmail... Plenty typical at the time.

Fetchmail itself is plenty common.  I had no idea that it was as common 
with Mailman.  209 hits on the link that Mark shared.

The 45 messages mentioning UUCP surprises me more.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu  Thu Mar 21 18:04:24 2019
From: dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu (Dimitri Maziuk)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 17:04:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <513d093d-6f41-ec9e-5a0d-c9d5a6663046@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
 <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <513d093d-6f41-ec9e-5a0d-c9d5a6663046@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <a95d1644-6a26-66d8-38d0-9bbdedd9c8cf@bmrb.wisc.edu>

On 3/21/19 3:57 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> Fetchmail itself is plenty common.? I had no idea that it was as common
> with Mailman.? 209 hits on the link that Mark shared.

I honestly don't remember the details but if I was passing mail to local
MTA configured as my home MX, I don't see why mailman wouldn't work
behind that.

> The 45 messages mentioning UUCP surprises me more.
:)

-- 
Dimitri Maziuk
Programmer/sysadmin
BioMagResBank, UW-Madison -- http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu

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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Mar 21 18:08:53 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 16:08:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <a95d1644-6a26-66d8-38d0-9bbdedd9c8cf@bmrb.wisc.edu>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
 <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <513d093d-6f41-ec9e-5a0d-c9d5a6663046@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a95d1644-6a26-66d8-38d0-9bbdedd9c8cf@bmrb.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <8b532bbb-860d-1eaf-68f6-c57d18eeace0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 3/21/19 4:04 PM, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users wrote:
> I honestly don't remember the details but if I was passing mail to 
> local MTA configured as my home MX, I don't see why mailman wouldn't 
> work behind that.

I think that it should.

I'm talking about bypassing the local MTA all together.  Pipe fetcmail's 
STDOUT to a wrapper script to extract the command and mailing list 
before piping it into the mailman executable with said command and 
mailing list.  Then have Mailman act as an SMTP client directly to an 
external MTA.  No local MTA period.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From ls at proasyl.de  Fri Mar 22 03:04:49 2019
From: ls at proasyl.de (Lothar Schilling)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 08:04:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Uncaught runner exception
In-Reply-To: <d9c3433b-f71a-8108-b89e-aa9a7049217f@msapiro.net>
References: <c51d35fa-461c-9c72-42b1-782e15b3a1f5@proasyl.de>
 <ae5df66c-d252-5725-5a2a-b52aedf3f54a@proasyl.de>
 <0ba93c0d-0366-14af-9ae7-fcfee41ec43b@msapiro.net>
 <c93ae39d-fdd4-ee7b-c4cb-8bea0371307b@proasyl.de>
 <3d128e87-4f16-23eb-4f62-921210bfb298@msapiro.net>
 <534ec65f-e2df-5255-4e27-e6647b66bf9a@proasyl.de>
 <05402ffb-5743-d948-d892-4bb69dbce0a8@msapiro.net>
 <cd34fe93-b3cc-fa67-a54e-cac676f5c9cc@proasyl.de>
 <c16ebf0c-0d07-0ad7-86c7-67be87c1fcb5@msapiro.net>
 <24703bff-be83-9d88-fabe-c76fb3b7e3c6@proasyl.de>
 <d9c3433b-f71a-8108-b89e-aa9a7049217f@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <05f1ddf8-971e-3d9f-86b1-c49e4cc285a7@proasyl.de>

Am 21.03.2019 um 17:48 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> On 3/21/19 9:20 AM, Lothar Schilling wrote:
>> Python 2.6.6 (r266:84292, Aug 18 2016, 15:13:37)
>> [GCC 4.4.7 20120313 (Red Hat 4.4.7-17)] on linux2
>> (InteractiveConsole)
>>>>> from string import lowercase
>>>>> lowercase
>> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
>>>>> import string
>>>>> string
>> <module 'string' from '/usr/lib64/python2.6/string.pyc'>
>
> I'm out of ideas. I have no clue as to where the extended
> string.lowercase is coming from and why only Mailman is seeing it, but
> to work around that, I suggest you change my suggested patch to
>
> === modified file 'Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py'
> --- Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2018-05-03 21:23:47 +0000
> +++ Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2019-03-02 04:51:23 +0000
> @@ -60,9 +60,12 @@
>      else:
>          # Mixed case; assume that small parts of the last name will be
>          # in lowercase, and check them against the list.
> -        while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
> -                       L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
> -            i = i - 1
> +        try:
> +            while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
> +                           L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
> +                i = i - 1
> +        except UnicodeDecodeError:
> +            pass
>      author = SPACE.join(L[-1:] + L[i:-1]) + ', ' + SPACE.join(L[:i])
>      return author
>
>
> This will catch the exception and ignore it without the logging.
>
> Also, I have no idea why when you run bin/unshunt, the .pck files remain
> in qfiles/shunt without errors being reported to the terminal or logged
> in mailman's error log. Something is strange about that, but I don't
> know what could cause it.
>

Applied the patch. Thanks again for your kind advice, Mark!

From andrew at hodgson.io  Fri Mar 22 08:15:26 2019
From: andrew at hodgson.io (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 12:15:26 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Transactional email services with Mailman
Message-ID: <DB6PR0801MB1880DDE9FABCF0FE7F5A229FAF430@DB6PR0801MB1880.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,

I am looking at using a transactional email service with Mailman as I am having issues with outbound email to specific domains (mainly gmail) being blocked and I don't send enough email out (around 2000-3000 a day) to get good scores.

I remember we discussed this a few years ago but wanted to know current opinions on this.  A lot of these change envelope info to get bounces pushed through their systems so they can let the system know to stop sending emails to the specific address, but I don't think these play nicely with Mailman.

Any recommendations?
Thanks.
Andrew.

From csa at web-analysts.net  Fri Mar 22 08:42:48 2019
From: csa at web-analysts.net (Web Analysts)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 05:42:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] iterative loop
In-Reply-To: <3fdf7660-a378-3322-12b5-8c3e5e963537@msapiro.net>
References: <340701d4dde9$68d82060$3a886120$@web-analysts.net>
 <bff6b58d-7584-5992-31f5-33433bdc27b5@msapiro.net>
 <0a7001d4debc$0654ddb0$12fe9910$@web-analysts.net>
 <3fdf7660-a378-3322-12b5-8c3e5e963537@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <011a01d4e0ac$c164ea40$442ebec0$@web-analysts.net>

Okay here's the output from 'postconf -n'


alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
append_dot_mydomain = no
biff = no
broken_sasl_auth_clients = yes
config_directory = /etc/postfix
content_filter = smtp-amavis:[127.0.0.1]:10024
inet_interfaces = all
inet_protocols = all
mailbox_size_limit = 0
mailman_destination_recipient_limit = 1
message_size_limit = 31457280
milter_default_action = accept
milter_protocol = 2
mydestination = mail.domainname.tld, mail1.domainname.tld,
lists.domainname.tld, localhost.domainname.tld, localhost
myhostname = mail.ccalternatives.org
mynetworks = 127.0.0.0/8 [::ffff:127.0.0.0]/104 [::1]/128
myorigin = /etc/mailname
non_smtpd_milters = inet:localhost:8891
readme_directory = no
recipient_delimiter = +
relay_domains = $mydestination, lists.domainname.tld
relay_recipient_maps = hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman
relayhost =
smtpd_banner = $myhostname ESMTP $mail_name (Ubuntu)
smtpd_milters = inet:localhost:8891
smtpd_recipient_restrictions = permit_sasl_authenticated, permit_mynetworks,
check_relay_domains
smtpd_sasl_auth_enable = yes
smtpd_sasl_path = private/auth
smtpd_sasl_security_options = noanonymous
smtpd_sasl_type = dovecot
smtpd_tls_auth_only = yes
smtpd_tls_cert_file =
/etc/letsencrypt/live/mail.domainname.tld/fullchain.pem
smtpd_tls_key_file = /etc/letsencrypt/live/mail.domainname.tld/privkey.pem
smtpd_tls_loglevel = 0
smtpd_use_tls = yes
transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
virtual_alias_maps = mysql:/etc/postfix/mysql-virtual-alias-maps.cf,
mysql:/etc/postfix/mysql-virtual-email2email.cf
virtual_mailbox_domains =
mysql:/etc/postfix/mysql-virtual-mailbox-domains.cf
virtual_mailbox_maps = mysql:/etc/postfix/mysql-virtual-mailbox-maps.cf
virtual_transport = lmtp:unix:private/dovecot-lmtp



-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+csa=web-analysts.net at python.org] On Behalf Of
Mark Sapiro
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 7:24 PM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] iterative loop

On 3/19/19 6:27 PM, Web Analysts via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Well I removed hostname.domainname.tld from mydestination in
> /etc/postfix/main.cf and restarted Postfix. No dice...see below:
> 
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtpd[18769]: 925B210193B:
> client=localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/cleanup[18673]: 925B210193B:
> message-id=<mailman.99.1553044787.18654.ssan at lists.domainname.tld >
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 925B210193B:
> from=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, size=6805, nrcpt=3 (queue
active)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 925B210193B:
> to=<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
> [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.03, delays=0.01/0/0/0.01, dsn=5.1.1,
> status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
> 5.1.1 <ssan at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't exist:
> ssan at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to RCPT TO command))
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 925B210193B:
> to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >,
> relay=mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.03,
> delays=0.01/0/0/0.01, dsn=5.1.1, status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld
> [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550 5.1.1
> <|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't
> exist: |/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply
to
> RCPT TO command))
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra amavis[5001]: (05001-19-19) Passed CLEAN
> {RelayedInternal,RelayedOutbound}, LOCAL [::1]:53426 [::1]
> <ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld > -> <ces at domainname.tld
>> ,<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld
>> ,<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >, Queue-ID:
> C66FF101986, Message-ID:
> <mailman.99.1553044787.18654.ssan at lists.domainname.tld >, mail_id:
> UPdgfVyqHMQR, Hits: -3.899, size: 6324, queued_as: 925B210193B, 2396 ms
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 925B210193B:
> to=<ces at domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
[private/dovecot-lmtp],
> delay=0.04, delays=0.01/0/0/0.02, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0
> <ces at domainname.tld > wqgTMDOVkVzrRgAAEFbm5A Saved)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/cleanup[18707]: 9B645101942:
> message-id=<20190320012143.9B645101942 at mail.domainname.tld >
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 9B645101942: from=<>,
> size=9894, nrcpt=3 (queue active)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/bounce[18678]: 925B210193B: sender
> non-delivery notification: 9B645101942
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 925B210193B: removed


If we look only at entries up to here with queue id 925B210193B, we see
messages to 3 recipients: ssan at hostname.domainname.tld,
|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld and
ces at domainname.tld all being relayed via private/dovecot-lmtp.

There are two more similar sets below with queue ids C66FF101986 and
9B645101942. These all seem to come about in the same way. I'm confuses
about the ces at domainname.tld recipient as it is at domainname.tld rather
than hostname.domainname.tld, but more below.


> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtp[18662]: C66FF101986:
> to=<ces at domainname.tld >, orig_to=<ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld >,
> relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024, conn_use=19, delay=113,
> delays=0.01/110/0.01/2.4, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 from
> MTA(smtp:[127.0.0.1]:10025): 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 925B210193B)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtp[18662]: C66FF101986:
> to=<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld >,
orig_to=<ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld
>> , relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024, conn_use=19, delay=113,
> delays=0.01/110/0.01/2.4, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 from
> MTA(smtp:[127.0.0.1]:10025): 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 925B210193B)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/smtp[18662]: C66FF101986:
> to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >,
> orig_to=<ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld >,
> relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024, conn_use=19, delay=113,
> delays=0.01/110/0.01/2.4, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 from
> MTA(smtp:[127.0.0.1]:10025): 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 925B210193B)
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: C66FF101986: removed


Actually, the C66FF101986 entries were first (this log gets written
asynchronously). They are a message to ssan-owner at lists.domainname.tld
receeived via smtp and resent with queue-id 925B210193B.


> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 9B645101942:
> to=<bounces at hostname.domainname.tld >,
> orig_to=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
> [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.02, delays=0/0/0/0.02, dsn=5.1.1,
> status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
> 5.1.1 <bounces at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't exist:
> bounces at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to RCPT TO command))
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 9B645101942:
> to=<ssan at hostname.domainname.tld >,
> orig_to=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
> [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.03, delays=0/0/0/0.03, dsn=5.1.1,
> status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
> 5.1.1 <ssan at hostname.domainname.tld > User doesn't exist:
> ssan at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply to RCPT TO command))
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/lmtp[18151]: 9B645101942:
> to=<|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld >,
> orig_to=<ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld >, relay=mail.domainname.tld
> [private/dovecot-lmtp], delay=0.04, delays=0/0/0/0.03, dsn=5.1.1,
> status=bounced (host mail.domainname.tld [private/dovecot-lmtp] said: 550
> 5.1.1 <|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld > User
doesn't
> exist: |/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld  (in reply
to
> RCPT TO command))
> Mar 19 18:21:43 zarathustra postfix/qmgr[18094]: 9B645101942: removed


The last set here with queue-id 9B645101942 is the most straightforward.
It is a message to ssan-bounces at lists.domainname.tld. There is an alias
mapping ssan-bounces to "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces ssan"
which is supposed to pipe the mail to that command, but the dovecot
delivery agent doesn't understand that and take the three words in the
command and appends the local domain to them and tries to deliver to the
three recipient addresses
|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman at hostname.domainname.tld,
bounces at hostname.domainname.tld and ssan at hostname.domainname.tld none of
which exist.

The bottom line here is that this mail should be delivered via the
Postfix 'local' delivery agent which does understand these aliases, not
via dovecot.

This is a Postfix configuration issue. Perhaps you have a backup of the
Postfix main.cf and master.cf files from when this was working to
compare with the current ones to see what changed.

If you want more help here we have to see at least the output from
'postconf -n' to start.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/csa%40web-analysts.net


From brian at emwd.com  Fri Mar 22 08:55:20 2019
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 08:55:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Transactional email services with Mailman
In-Reply-To: <DB6PR0801MB1880DDE9FABCF0FE7F5A229FAF430@DB6PR0801MB1880.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DB6PR0801MB1880DDE9FABCF0FE7F5A229FAF430@DB6PR0801MB1880.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <4c3301d4e0ae$81d9c150$858d43f0$@emwd.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users <mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org> On
Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 8:15 AM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Transactional email services with Mailman

Hi,

I am looking at using a transactional email service with Mailman as I am
having issues with outbound email to specific domains (mainly gmail) being
blocked and I don't send enough email out (around 2000-3000 a day) to get
good scores.

I remember we discussed this a few years ago but wanted to know current
opinions on this.  A lot of these change envelope info to get bounces pushed
through their systems so they can let the system know to stop sending emails
to the specific address, but I don't think these play nicely with Mailman.

Any recommendations?
Thanks.
Andrew.


Hi Andrew,

Have you consider using a hosting mailman service such as the one we
provide? We host most of our lists on shared servers (mailman only). All of
our shared mailman servers enjoy great IP reputations and high delivery
rates.

You can learn more at:

https://www.emwd.com/mailman-hosting/

Have a great day!

Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com
brian at emwd.com


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 22 12:14:01 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 09:14:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] iterative loop
In-Reply-To: <011a01d4e0ac$c164ea40$442ebec0$@web-analysts.net>
References: <340701d4dde9$68d82060$3a886120$@web-analysts.net>
 <bff6b58d-7584-5992-31f5-33433bdc27b5@msapiro.net>
 <0a7001d4debc$0654ddb0$12fe9910$@web-analysts.net>
 <3fdf7660-a378-3322-12b5-8c3e5e963537@msapiro.net>
 <011a01d4e0ac$c164ea40$442ebec0$@web-analysts.net>
Message-ID: <4f149e5e-bbe0-036c-865f-20806d240b77@msapiro.net>

On 3/22/19 5:42 AM, Web Analysts via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Okay here's the output from 'postconf -n'
> 
> 
> alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
> alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases

OK


...
> mydestination = mail.domainname.tld, mail1.domainname.tld,
> lists.domainname.tld, localhost.domainname.tld, localhost

OK

...
> relay_domains = $mydestination, lists.domainname.tld

lists.domainname.tld is redundant here as it's in $mydestination, but I
think this in combination with

virtual_transport = lmtp:unix:private/dovecot-lmtp

is the issue. I suggest setting

relay_domains = mail.domainname.tld, mail1.domainname.tld,
 localhost.domainname.tld, localhost

I.e. everything in $mydestination except lists.domainname.tld.


> relay_recipient_maps = hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman

Then this will be unnecessary.

If that doesn't fix your issue, look at /var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
and ensure that the  aliases for each list that look like

> LISTNAME:             "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-admin:       "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-bounces:     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-confirm:     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-join:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-leave:       "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-owner:       "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-request:     "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-subscribe:   "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe LISTNAME"
> LISTNAME-unsubscribe: "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe LISTNAME"

In particular, that the quotes around the commands are not missing,
although I don't see how they could be unless you edited this by hand.
If there is an issue, running Mailman's bin/genaliases as the Mailman user

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Mon Mar 25 01:50:42 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 14:50:42 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <8b532bbb-860d-1eaf-68f6-c57d18eeace0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
 <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <513d093d-6f41-ec9e-5a0d-c9d5a6663046@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a95d1644-6a26-66d8-38d0-9bbdedd9c8cf@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <8b532bbb-860d-1eaf-68f6-c57d18eeace0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <23704.27698.970628.25350@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users writes:

 > I'm talking about bypassing the local MTA all together.  Pipe fetcmail's 
 > STDOUT to a wrapper script to extract the command and mailing list 
 > before piping it into the mailman executable with said command and 
 > mailing list.

This should work in Mailman 2, but won't in Mailman 3 (which expects
incoming posts via LMTP).

Steve

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Mon Mar 25 11:21:54 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 09:21:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <23704.27698.970628.25350@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
 <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <513d093d-6f41-ec9e-5a0d-c9d5a6663046@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a95d1644-6a26-66d8-38d0-9bbdedd9c8cf@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <8b532bbb-860d-1eaf-68f6-c57d18eeace0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <23704.27698.970628.25350@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <67f5f68d-958d-4dee-1b14-8bfa545a6ca8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 3/24/19 11:50 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> This should work in Mailman 2, but won't in Mailman 3 (which expects 
> incoming posts via LMTP).

Noted.  I think it would be possible to interject a shim between 
fetchmail that would extract what's necessary to speak LMTP to Mailman.

Is the LMTP still STDIN / STDOUT or something else (possibly a Unix socket)?

I'm trying to understand if I could drive Mailman 3 via Expect.  Not 
that I would.  I'm just wondering if I could.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From tmp_t1 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 24 16:14:04 2019
From: tmp_t1 at hotmail.com (wally b)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 20:14:04 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman headers get corrupted / incomplete
Message-ID: <AM6PR03MB4821EB940AC384EA15941A04BC5D0@AM6PR03MB4821.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,

Since I updated my server (ubuntu, mailman with exim) it seems that mailman does not send the complete mail headers.
Some mail clients can not interpret and display the mails correctly and show mails like this:

???8?}??ox?M?{^?????j?j[^?v???????j????^1?????a6?A?

Maybe I found the cause of this:
(last part of) the headers look like this:

....
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on b(0, 0, =
0);" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-kerning: none" class=3D"">Als u zich =
wilt afmelden voor deze emails, laat ...
....


The text "..b(0,.." etc seems not to belong there. This is some text that is somewhere else in the mail and is copied over this part.
I expect this line to be:

X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on pknpserver.pknpapendrecht.nl); SAEximRunCond expanded to false

How can this happen?
Please help me to find out how this can occur.

Regards,
T


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar 25 12:45:49 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 09:45:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine
In-Reply-To: <67f5f68d-958d-4dee-1b14-8bfa545a6ca8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
 <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <513d093d-6f41-ec9e-5a0d-c9d5a6663046@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a95d1644-6a26-66d8-38d0-9bbdedd9c8cf@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <8b532bbb-860d-1eaf-68f6-c57d18eeace0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <23704.27698.970628.25350@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <67f5f68d-958d-4dee-1b14-8bfa545a6ca8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <07a9b57b-85eb-03c8-d451-be1724e30b15@msapiro.net>

On 3/25/19 8:21 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Noted.? I think it would be possible to interject a shim between
> fetchmail that would extract what's necessary to speak LMTP to Mailman.


Yes, it would be possible.


> Is the LMTP still STDIN / STDOUT or something else (possibly a Unix
> socket)?


The shim could receive a message on stdin from fetchmail, but it would
have to deliver the message via LMTP (a subset of SMTP) to Mailman's
lmtp runner which listens on a tcp socket, typically localhost:8024.


> I'm trying to understand if I could drive Mailman 3 via Expect.? Not
> that I would.? I'm just wondering if I could.


You probably could if you created an Expect script to speak LMTP. I
think the major issue in this is that fetchmail does not provide the
envelope, so you don't know the actual envelope sender to use in the
LMTP MAIL FROM command. If the MDA that delivered the mail to the remote
mailbox was compliant, it will be in a Return-Path: header in the
message, but otherwise you'd have to fake it by using a Sender: or From:
header. Also, you don't directly know the original recipient, although
you can infer it based on the mailbox you fetched from.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar 25 12:56:37 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 09:56:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman headers get corrupted / incomplete
In-Reply-To: <AM6PR03MB4821EB940AC384EA15941A04BC5D0@AM6PR03MB4821.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AM6PR03MB4821EB940AC384EA15941A04BC5D0@AM6PR03MB4821.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <12e855be-da52-4de3-f849-84c004d8f6f3@msapiro.net>

On 3/24/19 1:14 PM, wally b wrote:
> 
> Maybe I found the cause of this:
> (last part of) the headers look like this:
> 
> ....
> X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on b(0, 0, =
> 0);" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-kerning: none" class=3D"">Als u zich =
> wilt afmelden voor deze emails, laat ...
> ....
> 
> 
> The text "..b(0,.." etc seems not to belong there. This is some text that is somewhere else in the mail and is copied over this part.
> I expect this line to be:
> 
> X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on pknpserver.pknpapendrecht.nl); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
> 
> How can this happen?
> Please help me to find out how this can occur.


This is almost certainly an Exim/SpamAssassin issue having nothing to do
with Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From list at ziobro.rochester.ny.us  Tue Mar 26 02:36:28 2019
From: list at ziobro.rochester.ny.us (Jim Ziobro)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 02:36:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FetchMail feed into Mailman
In-Reply-To: <07a9b57b-85eb-03c8-d451-be1724e30b15@msapiro.net>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
 <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <513d093d-6f41-ec9e-5a0d-c9d5a6663046@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a95d1644-6a26-66d8-38d0-9bbdedd9c8cf@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <8b532bbb-860d-1eaf-68f6-c57d18eeace0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <23704.27698.970628.25350@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <67f5f68d-958d-4dee-1b14-8bfa545a6ca8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <07a9b57b-85eb-03c8-d451-be1724e30b15@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <17ef5e72-eb72-af02-73ff-732345fc087d@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>

FetchMail injects messages into the local mail system via SMTP. ? I see 
it also supports LMTP.? So I guess you would not need a local mail 
system with Mailman3.? But why not setup standard Mailman under your 
favorite mail system and let FetchMail do what it does best?? It is a 
widely supported configuration.

Your favorite mail system would handle queues for you as well as support 
all the tools (milters, etc) surrounding your mailman deployment.? 
Reliably handling the queue is important.? You won't know how important 
until you start getting duplicate messages like RFC 1047 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1047>.

Just checking... when using fetchmail (for example "testlist" on Gmail) 
then you'd be fetching mail for: testlist at gmail.com as well as

testlist-admin at gmail.com
testlist-bounces at gmail.com
testlist-confirm at gmail.com
testlist-join at gmail.com
testlist-leave at gmail.com
testlist-owner at gmail.com
testlist-request at gmail.com
testlist-subscribe at gmail.com
testlist-unsubscribe at gmail.com
owner-testlist at gmail.com

My fetchmail test is giving me reasonable Sender info.

Ciao,
//Z\\


On 3/25/2019 12:45 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 3/25/19 8:21 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
>> Noted.? I think it would be possible to interject a shim between
>> fetchmail that would extract what's necessary to speak LMTP to Mailman.
>
> Yes, it would be possible.
>
>
>> Is the LMTP still STDIN / STDOUT or something else (possibly a Unix
>> socket)?
>
> The shim could receive a message on stdin from fetchmail, but it would
> have to deliver the message via LMTP (a subset of SMTP) to Mailman's
> lmtp runner which listens on a tcp socket, typically localhost:8024.
>
>
>> I'm trying to understand if I could drive Mailman 3 via Expect.? Not
>> that I would.? I'm just wondering if I could.
>
> You probably could if you created an Expect script to speak LMTP. I
> think the major issue in this is that fetchmail does not provide the
> envelope, so you don't know the actual envelope sender to use in the
> LMTP MAIL FROM command. If the MDA that delivered the mail to the remote
> mailbox was compliant, it will be in a Return-Path: header in the
> message, but otherwise you'd have to fake it by using a Sender: or From:
> header. Also, you don't directly know the original recipient, although
> you can infer it based on the mailbox you fetched from.
>


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Tue Mar 26 17:12:54 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 15:12:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FetchMail feed into Mailman
In-Reply-To: <17ef5e72-eb72-af02-73ff-732345fc087d@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
 <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <513d093d-6f41-ec9e-5a0d-c9d5a6663046@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a95d1644-6a26-66d8-38d0-9bbdedd9c8cf@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <8b532bbb-860d-1eaf-68f6-c57d18eeace0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <23704.27698.970628.25350@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <67f5f68d-958d-4dee-1b14-8bfa545a6ca8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <07a9b57b-85eb-03c8-d451-be1724e30b15@msapiro.net>
 <17ef5e72-eb72-af02-73ff-732345fc087d@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
Message-ID: <ee6a29db-3459-e9f2-41b5-ec067de7d40d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 3/26/19 12:36 AM, Jim Ziobro wrote:
> why not setup standard Mailman under your favorite mail system and let 
> FetchMail do what it does best?

The unneeded complexity of a local mail system.

FetchMail & SMTP Auth would work against an ISP's email server over 
dynamic / dial up connections.

Sure, FetchMail can pull email from the ISP and inject it into the local 
server.  But what advantage does that gain you?  Is said advantage worth 
the complexity?

Especially if the ISP aliases testlist & testlist-* into one mailbox.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Tue Mar 26 17:18:42 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 15:18:42 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FetchMail feed into Mailman
In-Reply-To: <17ef5e72-eb72-af02-73ff-732345fc087d@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
 <01000169a167b078-c6c51c8d-9e72-41af-bf19-743c081b30d3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
 <7358f82a-65a2-9bc3-44f8-845fe1d03b65@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
 <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <513d093d-6f41-ec9e-5a0d-c9d5a6663046@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a95d1644-6a26-66d8-38d0-9bbdedd9c8cf@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <8b532bbb-860d-1eaf-68f6-c57d18eeace0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <23704.27698.970628.25350@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <67f5f68d-958d-4dee-1b14-8bfa545a6ca8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <07a9b57b-85eb-03c8-d451-be1724e30b15@msapiro.net>
 <17ef5e72-eb72-af02-73ff-732345fc087d@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
Message-ID: <c43172f9-b912-2306-dee0-fc9a0d0d9573@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 3/26/19 12:36 AM, Jim Ziobro wrote:
> You won't know how important until you start getting duplicate messages 
> like RFC 1047 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1047>.

How would having a local MTA change the behavior in the face of a 
duplicate message?

I've seen symptoms of duplicate messages where multiple servers up 
stream are the source of duplication.

Are you implying that local MTA alters this behavior?  Or that it 
provides additional tracing / diagnostic information?

I'm not aware of Mailman having any Message-ID deduplication 
functionality.  Nor have I really seen it as a need.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu  Tue Mar 26 17:41:04 2019
From: dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu (Dimitri Maziuk)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 16:41:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FetchMail feed into Mailman
In-Reply-To: <ee6a29db-3459-e9f2-41b5-ec067de7d40d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <87tvfwafy6.fsf@delta.birch.chromebook>
 <0bf32253-821e-6637-010d-5f1fbb71d39e@msapiro.net>
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 <74c4e43e-2c7e-b6d8-f090-287dfba23773@msapiro.net>
 <9751abe6-93e3-6cc0-fb2f-846873dc9a51@bmrb.wisc.edu>
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 <8b532bbb-860d-1eaf-68f6-c57d18eeace0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <23704.27698.970628.25350@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <67f5f68d-958d-4dee-1b14-8bfa545a6ca8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <07a9b57b-85eb-03c8-d451-be1724e30b15@msapiro.net>
 <17ef5e72-eb72-af02-73ff-732345fc087d@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
 <ee6a29db-3459-e9f2-41b5-ec067de7d40d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <244aa1e1-fdd9-6682-4593-6698275fd8a0@bmrb.wisc.edu>

On 3/26/19 4:12 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> Sure, FetchMail can pull email from the ISP and inject it into the local
> server.? But what advantage does that gain you?? Is said advantage worth
> the complexity?

Apparently lennartwware-infested linux distros no longer require MTA,
presumably because smtp is implemented inside systemd now. I'm not sure
the "extra complexity" argument holds, though.

Before this, cron needed an MTA and stock maintenance stuff like log
rotation ran from crontab. So there was more complexity in getting one
set up without a local MTA, than in setting up postfix.

-- 
Dimitri Maziuk
Programmer/sysadmin
BioMagResBank, UW-Madison -- http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu

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