[Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

Brian Carpenter brian_carpenter at emwd.com
Thu Feb 27 16:37:35 EST 2020

On 2/27/20 2:44 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I
> have said before that a much better use of time and resources would be
> the implementation of a light weight, non-Django web UI for Mailman 3,
> but I don't see anyone raising a hand to do either.

Let me be more clearer on this.

I have hired a professional PHP developer to begin work on a new 
admin/forum interface for Mailman 3. The work begins next week. We are 
only focusing on the admin (Postorius) interface initially. I also am in 
the process of hiring a front end developer for the new interfaces. I 
believe in the Mailman project, and as someone who has benefited from 
offering Mailman hosting services for years, I don't want to see it go 
away. The problems however are this:

1. Mailman 2 is great. The interface for it is very outdated. This turns 
people off. UI design has come a long way and people are use to using 
modern UIs.

2. Mailman 2 does need to be ported to python 3 eventually but Mailman 3 
is already there so why spend extra time and resources on doing that? 
That is a good question and the answer may be to look at the way Mailman 
3 development is currently being handled. Also Mark Sapiro clearly wants 
us to put our support behind Mailman 3 which is good and he has my 
support with that.

3. Mailman 2 doesn't integrate well with other applications due to no 
REST api which I think is what modern users want these days. Mailman 3 
has a REST api which is great but again I am having issues with the way 
Mailman 3 is being developed.

4. So lovers/users of Mailman are stuck between a rock and hard place: 
Mailman 2 or Mailman 3? Which way to go?

For me, Mailman 3 is the way to go but I can no longer wait on the two 
interfaces of Mailman 3 to be brought to modern standards. 
Postorius/Hyperkitty came out flawed right from the beginning:

1. Outdated U.I.

2. All of Mailman Core features/functions not being revealed in 
Postorius. This is something I intend to fix quickly with the new U.I. 
as soon as I figure out what those features/functions are. Anyone want 
to provide a list of that to me off-list so I can pass it on to my 

3. The decision to use Django. Maybe great for Python users but not for 
me and perhaps for others. This is also brings additional confusion. 
Mailman 3 has THREE interfaces: Postorius, Hyperkitty, and the Django 
admin interface.

4. Very poor documentation for Mailman 3 and way too many methods of 
installing it which means all kinds of versions of Mailman 3 are in 
production today because Mailman versions are dependent upon what method 
of installation a person chooses: Distro Package, Docker, Source, others?

5. MM3 DMARC handling seems to have improved from reviews I have seen 
but NO BOUNCE PROCESSING. My goodness. How do list managers keep their 
mailing lists clean? I know how much a hit to an IP address reputation 
can be done when a server is sending messages out to invalid email 
addresses. However I don't think I can fix that right? It is a Mailman 
core issue? So let's say it does get added to MM Core. How long will it 
show up in Postorius? Especially since not every feature in MM Core is 
revealed in Postorius already.

6. Social Media integration via Django is awful.

7. Hyperkitty just does not cut it in appearance and usability when it 
comes to a modern list forum. I am simply unable to compete with the 
growing number of applications that are being offered that has a better 
browser UI for communicating with list members.

I think the highest priority is to get Mailman 3 core up to speed in 
offering everything that Mailman 2 offers such as bounce processing. 
Then perhaps a whole new approach to interfacing with Mailman 3 core is 
in order. That part I have decided to work on because no matter how 
great MM3 core is, if the interfaces are poor then modern users will 
move on to something else.

I hope I did not offend anyone here or show disrespect to the hours and 
hours that have been spent on the Mailman 3 project. That was never my 
intention and I love Mailman and its community of users.

I would be interested to know if the developers of Mailman 3 are 
interested in the initiative I have taken to develop new interfaces for 
Mailman 3 that are more modernized and user-friendly.

Please let me know if you need further assistance.

Thank you for your business. We appreciate our clients.
Brian Carpenter

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